WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.560 Oh hi, So twenty twenty five me here, and last 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.120 night was our first ever live in person show. It 3 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:07.480 was at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn, and it was so fun. 4 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:09.080 I got to see so many of you in person. 5 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.880 We talked about tree Sap, we talked about Funeral Bells. 6 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.000 I don't know we're ever going to release that one. 7 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:15.960 It was just sort of a fun experiment and I 8 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:17.679 think I'll go on the road more in the future. 9 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:20.320 But this is an encore episode just because it's been 10 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:21.760 kind of a heavy week and I'm going to take 11 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.039 a couple of days off. Okay, enjoy this one. I 12 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.559 love it. Oh hey, it's your forgotten half can of lacroix. 13 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:31.480 That's just cold, just fizzy enough to keep drinking it 14 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:33.719 and not throw it away. Ali Ward back with a 15 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.880 very very weird, odd episode of Ologies. If this is 16 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:41.479 not your first Ologies rodeo, you know that each episode 17 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:43.880 I usually talk to one ologist, but for some reason, 18 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:46.600 I don't know, man Bison just threw us for a 19 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.479 very rare loop. So this episode is kind of more 20 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.200 like a buffalo party. And thank you to patrons of 21 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.640 the show who support us. Anyone in Ologies Merch Fromologiesmerch 22 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.399 dot com we have smologies. They're shorter kid friendly episodes, 23 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:01.719 so they're available now and their own feed. Thank you 24 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:05.000 to everyone who leaves reviews. I read them all. This 25 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.799 is twenty twenty five me thanking MRM Kennedy for the 26 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.200 review that said going through the worst breakup my poor 27 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.040 meat robot has ever been bopped through. Thank you for 28 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:18.439 this treasure trove of tiny joys and distractions, MRM Kennedy. 29 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.799 My heart wishes your heart the best, maybe a good rebound. Okay. Bisonology, 30 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:28.400 So bison. It's Baltic or Slavic origin. It comes from 31 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.560 the word wessund, which means the stinking animal because of 32 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:36.959 its musk while rudding, and the word bison is distantly 33 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:39.680 related to the word weasel, which is also stinky. So 34 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:43.599 weasel and bison. One is hulking billueing steam into the 35 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:46.319 cold air, and the other is a sock with a 36 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:50.519 face etymology. Okay, so you're going to hear from Ken Cannon, 37 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.280 who is a New Jersey born and now Utah based 38 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.000 research professor of anthropology at Utah State University who studies 39 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.959 ancient bison and gives talks like rolling Thunder ten thousand 40 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.680 years of bison in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, and he 41 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.719 has short cropped hair, rosy cheeks, and as salt and 42 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:10.960 pepper goateee. He looks like he could have been a 43 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.159 rugby player and another life. So that's Ken. And he 44 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.159 brought along Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty, who spent 45 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.639 years in Yellowstone studying animal behavior, and he has sandy 46 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.120 blonde hair. He's a little more wiry than Ken, and 47 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.479 I cannot explain why, but Dan looks like a Ken, 48 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.240 and Ken looks like a Dan, and that screwed me 49 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:35.240 up editing this entire episode. But yes, Dan studies the 50 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.719 more modern era of bison. Lyla Evans is my beloved 51 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:41.280 cousin in law, and she served in the Montana House 52 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.039 of Representatives and I always just picture her in a 53 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.439 business blazer, even though she's probably more likely like bundled 54 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:51.159 than fleece because it's Montana. And her longtime husband is 55 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:55.280 my cousin, boyd Evans, who's tall and gangly and wrangler jeans. 56 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:58.639 He has a handlebar mustache and a rain stained cowboy 57 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.000 hat and a great laugh. So I told you this 58 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.120 is a weird and wonderful episode, And a break from 59 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:08.120 the usual format. So hop on, hang tight and learn 60 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:11.759 how big a bison is, what their fur feels like, 61 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:14.560 how many there used to be, how many there are now, 62 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.360 how do they do a head count, and what that 63 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:21.599 lumpy humpus for, what a bison's favorite treat is, and 64 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.919 what noises they make, and the difference between raising cows 65 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.120 and bison, and how their very existence and survival has 66 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.360 been politicized and continues to be. And also maybe the 67 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:34.919 worst sentence in the English language as we talk to 68 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.919 academics and hands on ranchers, all four of whom, in 69 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:02.439 their own way are professional bisonologists. Okay, let's get right 70 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:04.800 into it. So the first person I had approached was 71 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:06.599 the one I interviewed. 72 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:08.080 Doctor Ken Canon. 73 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:09.479 And you're a bisonologist. 74 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.000 Uh, that's part of my jobs. 75 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:15.000 Yes, this is this news to you that you're a bisonologist. 76 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:16.000 Yes, it is very much. 77 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:16.120 So. 78 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:17.639 I heard that term before. 79 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.839 Would you ever use that term like in a cocktail party, like, Hi, 80 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:22.759 I'm a bus knows. 81 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:22.800 I think so? 82 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:24.079 Yeah, yeah, I think so. 83 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:28.199 Well you're welcome, yeah, thank you, And so how long 84 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.279 have you been studying bison? 85 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.720 Well, I first got interested in a bison when I 86 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:36.519 started working for National Park Service in nineteen eighty seven, 87 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:38.759 when I was just a little kid. 88 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:39.199 And. 89 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:42.759 I got interested in it because we were working at 90 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.319 Grant Teeton National Park and there was an archaeological site 91 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.680 there that referred to itself as a as a bison 92 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.600 kill site, a bison jump site. It was interpreted a 93 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:54.199 numerous different ways, and at the time, there weren't that 94 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:58.160 many bison in Granteeton National Park PS. 95 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.439 Grand Teton is in Wyoming, And if you're like, I'm 96 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.079 in New Zealand, I have no idea where your parks are. 97 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.720 Isn't Yellowstone in Wyoming? The answer is yes, and I'm sorry. 98 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:13.560 So both are gorgeous, mountainous, grassy places in Wyoming. They're 99 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:15.920 just a few miles away from each other, but they 100 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.560 have separate entrance fees unless you get like one big 101 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:23.160 pass that covers both. So essentially Yellowstone is Disneyland and 102 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:27.759 Grand Teton is California Adventure. Okay. Anyway, in the late 103 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:32.079 nineteen eighties when Ken started, there were not many bison there. 104 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.720 And the previous archaeologists that work there always minimize the 105 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.879 presence of bison in there, and so I just started 106 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:40.680 looking at the literature, and the more I looked at 107 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:46.000 the literature, every time there were fallen remains bones preserved 108 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.040 at archaeological sites, nine out of ten times there were 109 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:51.199 bison bones. And it's like, well, how can you minimize 110 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:54.839 bison and the archaeological record when all the bones that 111 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.000 you're finding are bison bones. So that just got me 112 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.199 going and moved up and started working in Yellowstone National 113 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.279 Park and got more interesting in bison and you know, 114 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.759 this wonderful mammal that's that was an incredible part of 115 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.920 our ecosystem, shaped a large part of North American ecosystem, 116 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:15.639 and why we don't know a lot about it. Most 117 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.000 of what we know about it is from small herds, 118 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:21.600 anecdotal historical records. So I really wanted to try and 119 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.480 understand at least the Yellowstone bison a little bit more detail. 120 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.279 So how old were those kill sites and what exactly 121 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:29.120 is it kil site? 122 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.920 So kill site it can vary in a lot of 123 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.319 different ways. The traditional ones that we always think of 124 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:39.279 for great planes are running bison over a cliff, oh 125 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.360 hundreds of bison over a cliff and then dispatching them 126 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:43.439 at the bottom of the cliff. 127 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:45.279 This is a kind of a stupid question. But when 128 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:47.600 you say at kill site, like let's say they were 129 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:51.839 over a cliff, is that for to then use that 130 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:56.959 meat and fur? Or was that like a hunting technique? 131 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:58.279 Yes, it was a hunting technique. 132 00:06:58.319 --> 00:06:58.560 Yeah. 133 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.959 So that was the best easy, I guess, and most 134 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.800 economically efficient way of getting a lot of bison to 135 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.959 get you into the winter. So typically they're they're in 136 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:12.600 the fall at these these events happen, bi center are 137 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.839 coming into the to the fall in the winter, so 138 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:19.160 they're really fat, and fat's good. Not like today, but 139 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:22.120 fat was good back then. Everybody, all hunter gathers. Everybody 140 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:26.519 wanted fat. So you hunted bison in the fall, they're 141 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:31.120 at their prime nutritionally, they're their fur is at prime. 142 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.959 So you get some really nice skins for making clothing 143 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:37.800 and and tps and all kinds of stuff. So so yeah, 144 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:39.519 so that was an efficient way of doing it. 145 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:44.360 Going back into some history, much much more recent, tell 146 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.680 me a little bit about how you started to love 147 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.839 bison er. Now you mentioned you mentioned that you have 148 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.879 a New Jersey accent. Yeah, okay, so now you grew 149 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.079 up in New Jersey, But what brought you out to 150 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:02.240 Yellowstone and Natural Park Service at P At what point 151 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:03.759 did you want to start working in nature. 152 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:06.240 Well, I've always wanted to work in nature. I grew 153 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:09.279 up on the Jersey Shore and I actually started out 154 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.160 as wanting to be a marine biologist. So my undergraduate 155 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.519 work was as a biologist like Jack Rousteau. And and 156 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:19.000 because I used to scuba dive and hang out on 157 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:23.319 the beach and I and I swear when I was seventeen, 158 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:24.839 I would never live more than half a mile from 159 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:27.639 the ocean. So here we are, yes, and here we 160 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:31.199 are in so so be careful about those things that 161 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:35.600 you say put out there in nature to the gods. 162 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.320 Okay, no, you're not losing your mind. Last week's guest, 163 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:42.000 future ologist Rose Evlyth, also wanted to follow in the 164 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.159 flipper steps of Jacques Cousteau before finding her own path. 165 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:50.320 Weird cute, right and anyway, So I went there and 166 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.279 I got a little bit frustrated with with the biology 167 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.440 program there was. It was largely geared towards pre med students. 168 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:02.279 But then I started taken anthropology courses. It was a 169 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:06.279 small program, really good professors treated you like a human 170 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.639 being and not just a number. And I learned that 171 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:12.720 I could I could do biology within as an archaeologist. 172 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.799 Oh so Ken graduated from the University of Florida and 173 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.879 did grad school in Tennessee, and then got his PhD 174 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:24.120 from the University of Nebraska Lincoln, studying the biogeography of 175 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:29.440 prehistoric bison isotopes. So how did this Jersey dude wind 176 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:31.000 up so far from the sea? 177 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.000 I wanted to get out of town, essentially and see 178 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:36.679 something different, and as a fluke, I just applied for 179 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:40.919 a job with the National Park Service and got hired 180 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.759 by the Midwest Archaeological Center and the first job was 181 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.039 to go and work in Granteeta National Park. So you know, 182 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.279 it's just those weird things that happen in life, and 183 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.679 you just got to kind of go, okay, let's go, 184 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.840 let's go. So yeah, it's just it wasn't a plan. 185 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.399 But it seems like it served you well. 186 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.720 Yeah, yeah, I'm very glad that it all happened. I 187 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.720 remember when I got hired and drove out I had this, 188 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.039 of course, I had a nice little VW bug that 189 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:12.039 I drove all the way out to grant teet from Tennessee, 190 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:15.840 And when I got there, my boss told me it's 191 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:17.399 like you were the last person we picked. 192 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:19.600 Ouch. 193 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:22.840 I said, okay, well, and mostly because I didn't have 194 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:24.960 any experience out there, and I but it was it 195 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.200 was a slam and I was like, okay, take that 196 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.440 as a challenge, right, you know, do you live up 197 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:29.720 to it? 198 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:30.000 Then? 199 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.679 I don't know. I'm still trying. It's an ongoing process. 200 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.639 Is there something about Bison themselves that that intrigued you? 201 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.759 I feel like as an American, I think that there's 202 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.799 so much lore and history and and maybe even a 203 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.120 dark history to them as well. Is that something that 204 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:51.720 kind of grabbed you as an archaeologist. 205 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.840 It grabbed me as an archaeologist because in the Mountains 206 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:00.519 they were never seen as being an import and part 207 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:05.799 of the subsistence economy of Native American groups, and that 208 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:10.360 was intriguing to me. But also I think you're right, Yeah, 209 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:15.320 there's there's there's an iconic history to bison. It's a 210 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.759 it is a deep, dark history, but it's also a 211 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.159 very exciting positive history because we brought them back from 212 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.559 from extinction and and it was and it was you know, 213 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:27.480 it was it was the efforts by a small group 214 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.200 of people that said this is crazy. We go from 215 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.120 thirty million to down to nineteen or one hundred or 216 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.200 whatever the number was, and at the turn of the 217 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.720 last century. I think that's a big part of it, 218 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.559 is that just that's you know, that story, that resurrection 219 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:44.639 story is there too. But they're they're cool animals. I mean, 220 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.399 you just go out and they're just they're just cool 221 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:48.840 to sit watch. 222 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:49.759 And they're majestic. 223 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:50.799 They are majestic. 224 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:51.159 Yes. 225 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:55.240 Now, Ken's colleague, doctor Dan McNulty, no relation to squid 226 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:59.840 expert Sarah McNulty, got his bachelor's in environmental studies at 227 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:03.639 the University of Colorado and got a master's in wildlife 228 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:08.519 conservation and a PhD in ecology, evolution and behavior from 229 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.919 the University of Minnesota. So how did he get lured 230 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.000 into the bison life? And now are you from Utah? 231 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:15.600 No? 232 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.720 I born in Illinois. I grew up in California, went 233 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:21.720 to school in Colorado. 234 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.440 So one might say you've been roaming around as well. 235 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.159 I have been a bit nomadic, right, although not lately. 236 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.879 And so you are a bisonologist. You study bison as 237 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.159 part of your job. Whether you would call yourself that 238 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:35.480 or not. 239 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.600 I would say that bisonology is part of my program yet. 240 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.679 Okay, yep, And so how long have you been into 241 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:48.000 science and field work and animals. What was it that 242 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:48.720 drew you to this? 243 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.399 Well, I lived in Hong Kong for three years when 244 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.399 I was in junior high and so that was obviously 245 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.480 very urban environment. And when I got back to California, 246 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:00.960 I was like in the eight or seventh grade, and 247 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.799 we lived on the edge of big open space, lots 248 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.039 of live oaks and hills, and it kind of just 249 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.720 sucked me in, suck me right in soon after we 250 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.639 got back, and I've been kind of at it since then. 251 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.799 And actually even before that, I grew up, you know, 252 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.440 riding horses with my dad in that country, and just 253 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.000 got really into it once I got back from that 254 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.879 little stay in Hong Kong and just a lot of 255 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:31.960 time spent camping, hiking. 256 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.799 Dan said, growing up he always loved animals and being 257 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:37.720 out in nature observing them. 258 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.000 But I never really thought i'd actually make a career 259 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.720 of it. I was an undergraduate at Boulder, Colorado, and 260 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.639 then went up to Yellowstone and actually it was that 261 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:49.679 was kind of when I was sort of the aha 262 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.360 moment that, yeah, you know, I think I can make 263 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.039 science into a career. Was when I arrived in Yellowstone. 264 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:59.279 This was ninety five, and I just got to see 265 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.639 while life biologists in action. You know, the folks that 266 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.799 I worked up up there had made it their career, 267 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:07.799 had met other people that had been at it for 268 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.320 a very long time, and it sort of dawned on 269 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:13.080 me that, well, you know, if you work hard and focus, 270 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.559 you know, it's possible to make this a career. So 271 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.759 that's kind of where I really sort of got started. 272 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.360 And now, how did you end up in the bison arena? 273 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.360 Sort of following wolves? Okay, yeah, the wolves brought me 274 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:29.879 to the bison, so the. 275 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:33.679 Wolves brought him to the buffalo. But you know, before 276 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.279 we go much further, let's clear this up. Buffalo or bison. 277 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.879 So buffalo etymologically comes from the word for an African 278 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.759 antelope and then expanded to mean a wild European ox 279 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:51.000 and then French fur trappers saw bison and called them 280 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:55.279 both meaning oxen or beefs, so they were like bolo. 281 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.559 But currently is there a difference when referring to the 282 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:04.679 wool hookhorned beautiful beasts of the North American Plains. I 283 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.360 called my cousin Boyd and his longtime love and wife 284 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.600 Lila up in Browning, Montana, which is a small town 285 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.399 of just a few thousand people and with the Blackfeet Reservation, 286 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.759 over ninety percent of the town are Indigenous folks. Lyla 287 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:18.960 is a member of the Blackfeet tribe, and I've been 288 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.639 lucky to learn about her heritage and their family's tribal 289 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:27.080 involvement over the years. And about buffalo bison. You don't 290 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:28.720 mind if I have buffalo questions? 291 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.279 No, we absolutely do not. 292 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:35.519 I'm so excited to talk to you about this because 293 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.679 it's like, I know people who actually get to see 294 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.799 buffalo and bison every day. This is so exciting. Okay, 295 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:46.919 my first question is the difference between a buffalo and 296 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.559 a bison? Stupid question. There is none, no such thing 297 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:51.679 as the difference. 298 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.600 No difference, Yeah, I mean just whatever. 299 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:02.399 Okay, So it's either or yeah, yeahotato potato, tomato, tomato. 300 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:04.840 Yeah, that's kind of what it is. 301 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.200 And then how long have you had buffalo? 302 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:10.200 Twenty years? 303 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.159 Twenty years? Yeah, Boyd and Lila started with just six 304 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.840 a few decades ago. What made you go get the buffalo? 305 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:26.679 Just start we try that, just give it a shot. Yeah, 306 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.679 do you know you have to take those chances. 307 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.000 Once again, the life lesson is get a buffalo or 308 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.679 six cut bangs, text your crush because we're all gonna die. 309 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.159 So they took a chance. They now have fifty two bison. Also, 310 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.519 I felt very stupid because I've read and heard both 311 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.480 Blackfeet or Blackfoot, and the name comes from the dark 312 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.000 souls of these bison hunters moccasins, and I didn't want 313 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.559 to say it wrong. So I asked a very smart 314 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:58.679 person a stupid question and it correct me. Is it Blackfoot, 315 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.320 Indian Blackfoot, canac Blackfeet Nation? I want to make sure 316 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:02.759 I see. 317 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:08.880 Okay, all right, there is a Blackfoot confederacy, which is 318 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:14.519 our black Feet tribe, the Blood tribe in Canada, and 319 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.359 the Blackfoot tribe in Canada, and the Sarci tribe and 320 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.359 one other tribe, but I don't remember what it is. 321 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.880 They're all connected. That's the Blackfoot Confederacy, okay, But we 322 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.039 are actually the Blackfeet tribe in Montana, and we're the 323 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.440 only ones on this side of the line. 324 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:40.119 And traditionally and historically, what has the Blackfeet relation to 325 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.680 bison and buffalo been like? 326 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.599 Historically that's what they lived on. They followed the buffalo, 327 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.759 and then when and then when they became big things 328 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:57.079 back east, like when their hides became really valuable back 329 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:04.720 east for hats and overseas, then everybody went to killing buffalo. 330 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:09.640 And that's basically how the buffalo a most died completely out. 331 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.400 And it should also be noted that the mass slaughter 332 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.279 of bison has been cited as part of the genocide 333 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.839 of Indigenous people in North America, because killing off a 334 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.400 major food source and a foundation to their way of 335 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.359 life had irreparable and intentional impacts on not just the bison, obviously, 336 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:28.559 but the people who have depended on them. And we 337 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.680 talk more about that genocide in the twenty twenty four 338 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.319 Genocideology episode with doctor Dirk Moses. But before we talk 339 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:42.119 about the brutal decline, the lumbering comeback, and their hopeful future, 340 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.039 let's get some history down with archaeologist Ken and going 341 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:51.240 backwards a little bit. What is a buffalo? What is 342 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.640 a bison? What is the difference? What is this animal? 343 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:56.000 What is a bison? 344 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.480 I think the bison and buffalo, they're interchangeable terms. Okay, 345 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.279 I think I'm I'm sure some taxonomous. I'll write you 346 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.079 an email and say, yeah, I don't know what he's 347 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.200 talking about, but but I refer to him as bison. Okay, 348 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.319 so North American bison. The species is bison, bison? 349 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:15.920 I read that, isn't it bison? 350 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:20.319 It can be by yes, And the taxonomy of bison 351 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.240 is still being debated. 352 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:27.319 Really, yeah, what are they thinking the bison derived from? 353 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.759 Where are they what taxonomy is being debated, and where 354 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.480 do they think these this species came from? 355 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.519 Well, I think what's being debated is the the Holocene 356 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.200 or the you know, the last ten twelve thousand years 357 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:45.440 of bison history. After the so during the place of scene, 358 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.920 we had a species of bison called Bison antiquis. Some 359 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.039 people might say by some bison antiquus, but that was 360 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.279 probably about a third larger than the modern bison are. 361 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:01.160 The herd sizes probably weren't as big they're, their behavior 362 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.640 might have been somewhat different than bison are today. But 363 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:11.400 over probably once a glaciers retreated between about ten and 364 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:16.759 seven eight nine or seven to five six thousand years ago, 365 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.839 they went through this diminution, so they became smaller in 366 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.160 size and became what we know is the modern bison bison, 367 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.519 And we think a lot of that might have to 368 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.759 do with just changes in the environment. The climate was 369 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:35.559 drying out somewhat, the vegetation was changing, so it wasn't 370 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.480 quite as nutritious. It's just there's a lot of theories 371 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.359 that are being pushed around out there. 372 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.079 So bison, bison, bison, plains of Buffalo. But there's another 373 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.359 subspecies of North American bison, and it's bison bison a 374 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.440 thabis guy I think, which were nearly extinct in the 375 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.599 early nineteen hundreds until this small group of about two 376 00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.000 hundred were discovered in this remote reach of Alberta, Canada. 377 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:02.640 And Boyd and Led told me that they're even bigger, 378 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.440 I think twenty eight hundred pounds as opposed to the 379 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:09.000 smaller two thousand pounds planes bison. So these wood bison 380 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.759 are kind of like our Canadian neighbors. They're beautifully husky, 381 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.559 and if you act like a hosier and get too close, 382 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.480 the woodspison might gooria, but they'll probably say sorry. 383 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.200 And then there was also some argument that the woods 384 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:25.279 bison extended down and was present in the rocky mountains, 385 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.079 and that was different than the plane spicon. Some people 386 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.960 think have argued that they looked a little bit differently. 387 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.680 Their skull structure was a little bit different. They tended 388 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.720 to maybe have longer legs, lower humps, and that was 389 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:43.519 an adaptation to deeper snows trying to forage in the 390 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:44.279 winter time. 391 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:49.599 Going back to bison history, where did they evolve from? 392 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.680 What species do they evolve from? When did they get 393 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.519 to North America? And how many were there? Give me 394 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:57.799 a brief, give me a brief. 395 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:03.000 Brief line, a brief, brief timeline. So bison originated in Eurasia, 396 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:08.759 migrated to North America during periods of interglacial They've been 397 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:15.200 here in North America probably summer twenty million years ago, 398 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:16.359 in different. 399 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.640 Forms twenty million years, twenty million years, and in a 400 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:24.559 period of twenty to thirty years they were nearly extinguished 401 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.720