1 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune Tribcast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,960 March seventeenth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, joined as always by Matthew Watkins. 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,920 Thanks for being here, Matthew, happy to be here. We 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,039 should acknowledge that we're taping this on Friday. I feel 5 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:25,440 like news is happening so fast that we should acknowledge 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,480 we are taping this on the friday before because we 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:30,519 are trip cast going on vacation. 8 00:00:30,719 --> 00:00:34,399 Speaker 2: That's right, spring break Break trib Cast. 9 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 3: And actually I have a quick story for you, Eleanor, 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,960 which is I was doing this week the most obnoxious 11 00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:43,520 of Austin things, which is going to a south By 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,200 Southwest party. And I met someone at the party, Robin, 13 00:00:47,679 --> 00:00:51,000 who told me she was a loyal trip cast listener. 14 00:00:51,359 --> 00:00:54,079 And the first thing she said to me was, you 15 00:00:54,399 --> 00:00:56,479 need to learn Eleanor's title. 16 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:01,079 Speaker 2: The people are speaking, Matthew. 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: The south By Southwest is just torn apart by your 18 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:06,359 inability to learn my titles. 19 00:01:06,439 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: Yes, so so funny. Thank you for working on it. 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,400 And Robin, yes, well, we appreciate that. 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: From Robin. The listeners have spoken. We are very excited 22 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,079 for today's episode. We are talking about you know bombshell 23 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:23,879 story that dropped by the time you're hearing this last 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,480 week from Inside Climate News or partners of the Texas Tribune, 25 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:30,359 where they reported that Corpus Christie is headed for a 26 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:33,959 water emergency within months. We'll reach a point next year 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,719 where city supply can no longer meet demand. 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: That's according to the city's own website. 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: You know Corpus as many Texans know, not just any 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:44,879 Texas city, I mean, home to one of the nation's 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,799 largest petroleum ports, provides a lot of jet fuel to 32 00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:52,239 the entire country. Hugely impactful on like a number of fronts, 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,760 oil gas, all those things we love that we require 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,480 to keep our world churning. So obviously, a water emergency 35 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,359 in Corpus Christi potentially a water emergency for the whole state. 36 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:08,479 So to discuss what's going on there, and you know 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,039 the latest on all of that news, we are joined 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,520 by the reporter on that article, Dylan bad Or. 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: I really should checked that before we started. 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 4: Dylan Bador. 41 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: That's pretty close, Dylan Badour, Which is crazy because I've 42 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,960 known you for many years. Dylan Badour here, if you 43 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,120 come on next time, I will get your last name. 44 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:32,439 Dylan Badoor, a reporter with Inside Climate News, and Incarnacion Serna, 45 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:35,840 a retired chemical plant operations manager based in Corpus. 46 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: Thank you both for joining us. 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,439 Speaker 1: Thanks uh, Dylan, Maybe you can start tell us, just 48 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,240 to start us off, what is the current outlook for 49 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,439 water in Corpus and then we'll get into sort of 50 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:49,719 the details around how we got there. 51 00:02:50,199 --> 00:02:52,719 Speaker 4: So the current outlook, which is actually based on my 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,680 reporting yesterday and today more recent than this story, is 53 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,280 that within the next month there's going to be mandatory, 54 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,159 unprecedented cuts in water use, and it, assuming the demand 55 00:03:03,159 --> 00:03:06,639 curve that's currently projected, by next year, total depletion of 56 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,960 water supplies, nothing left in Corpus Christie's water resource. We're 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,879 looking at the Highland or the Nuiss River basins going 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,800 dry by the end of this year and Lake Texana, 59 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,560 the eastern water supply dry by early next year unless 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,080 we ramp down demand ahead of that, unless we cut 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,280 off water users. But at this point it's barreling headlong 62 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,039 into unprecedented catastrophe and that. 63 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,479 Speaker 2: Is bad, I would presume, right. 64 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a chemical engineer, but explained to us, 65 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:41,719 like why that's so alarming? 66 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,319 Speaker 4: This is extremely bad, and perhaps some of y'all have 67 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,000 seen by now the Governor Abbott's reaction on social media, 68 00:03:49,039 --> 00:03:50,639 where I think many of us saw him a bit 69 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:53,879 more heated and unscripted on camera than we've ever seen before. 70 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:58,479 He appeared to be quite angry because this undermines his 71 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:03,199 entire you know, platform, and base and concept of Texas 72 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,599 as the industrial powerhouse growing under him, Because now what 73 00:04:06,599 --> 00:04:10,199 we're looking at is the state having to shut down refineries, 74 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,319 having to tell companies like Exxon, Valero and Sitgo that 75 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,000 you need to shut that down and lay off your 76 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,519 employees because we were unable to provide you with the 77 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,519 water that your cooling towers need for your refineries not 78 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,519 to explode. So that's the position we're in here, and 79 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,519 everyone at this point is pointing fingers wondering who is 80 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,879 going to be the authority that brings down that that 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,920 verdict and starts telling people to shut off the tabs. 82 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: I mean, when we're talking about and we can talk 83 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:38,600 about sort of what those cuts will look like, but 84 00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:41,560 is it primarily going to be the major companies, the 85 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,360 big employers that are getting those curtailman orders, or is 86 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,680 that going to be you know, individual water consumers. 87 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 4: There's no plan yet, nor is there any clarity on 88 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,720 who would be in an authoritative position to make those 89 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,480 decisions that you just said. You know, the governor has 90 00:04:57,519 --> 00:04:59,759 threatened to take over Corpus Christi, which would be in 91 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:02,879 a position where he just steps in and appoints someone 92 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,879 to make those decisions. But you know, very interestingly, I 93 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,480 spoke with Robert mace Very, a prominent guy in Texas 94 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,879 water here. We just talked yesterday. He told me that 95 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:15,079 when he was with the Water Development Board after the 96 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,360 big drought twenty eleven to twenty fifteen, he went around 97 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,759 pushing to write a white paper on how Texas cities 98 00:05:20,759 --> 00:05:24,759 would enact curtailment policies in this exact position, and nobody 99 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,800 would pick it up, and nobody would even talk about 100 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,480 it because it was too politically touchy, so it never 101 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,720 got done. So his corpus in fronts of this situation, 102 00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:36,439 it's the office of City Manager Peter Zanoni that's going 103 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:42,199 to be coming up with. You know, these policies, unprecedented policies. 104 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:45,639 Speaker 3: They are going to have to be enacted, and basically, 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,480 whoever gets pointed to to cut off their water is 106 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:54,040 going to be very unhappy. You're basically talking about a 107 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,480 city with a population of more than three hundred thousand people. 108 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,720 I would imagine there's probably some outlying areas that would 109 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,759 be a fact by this too. You're talking about homes, 110 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,800 or you're talking about businesses that you know, effect beyond 111 00:06:07,879 --> 00:06:10,199 just Corpus Christie. But as you wrote in your story, 112 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,480 the whole state, maybe the whole nation, the whole world. 113 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:17,759 Speaker 4: Really yes, indeed, I mean like Flint Hills refineries there, 114 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,839 this is a coke industries company supplies jet fuel via 115 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,319 pipeline directly to DFW Airport, to San Antonio and to Austin. 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:26,959 And it's in a way where the jet fuel that's 117 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,879 produced one day is loaded into airplanes you know, the 118 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,759 next day via pipeline. So it's a continuous supply and 119 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,519 when it's disrupted, you know, it's it's disrupted. So yeah, 120 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,279 it's a it's a pretty big situation that we're looking 121 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,319 at here in Canacion. 122 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,199 Speaker 1: I want to ask you, because you you know, have 123 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:50,120 worked in a lot of these large chemical facilities you 124 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,439 you know, live in in the Corpus area, what is 125 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,680 it about Corpus Christi that you know makes their water demand, 126 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,600 their water sort of needs so unique in Texas. 127 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:05,319 Speaker 5: Hearing Corpus Christie is seventy to eighty percent of the 128 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,040 total volume that the City of Corpus Christi and others 129 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,240 move around about one hundred million gallons a day. Seventy 130 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:17,600 five eighty go to industry. That right there tells you 131 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,279 a thousand things that you can deduce from. I just 132 00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:23,920 got off the phone with Councilwoman Sylvia Campos from the 133 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,639 City of Corpus Christie, and she understood, you cannot squeeze 134 00:07:27,639 --> 00:07:31,480 people anymore. I mean we brought it down. I look 135 00:07:31,519 --> 00:07:36,879 at it from an individual use. City of Corpus Christie 136 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,639 supplies water for seven counties, a little over half a 137 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:45,439 million people people use. Now we're using thirty five gallons 138 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:48,920 a day. We probably were using forty forty five before, 139 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:52,439 maybe forty five. We've we've caught, we caught. We got 140 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,519 broken slabs, we got dead yards, trees. I am a 141 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,000 chemical engineer. Here's a fact. You can take it home. 142 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:03,959 This is a hard number or cooling towers and steam 143 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,759 generators use the majority of the water. 144 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,079 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, mister Serna, Can I ask you 145 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,120 a question at that because you talked about I mean, 146 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,759 you know, as I a person reading this article, you 147 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,879 think you read the sentence that Dylan wrote about you know, oh, well, 148 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,959 they can't necessarily just throttle down these like you know, 149 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,920 major plants all of a sudden to suddenly throw down 150 00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:24,680 their water needs. 151 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: And you think, well, that's why not. And then the 152 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:27,519 next sentence. 153 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,519 Speaker 1: Is because they all might blow up if you just 154 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:30,759 suddenly cut off their water. 155 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,639 Speaker 5: You don't shut down one of these processes all of 156 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,159 a sudden. You don't. And when you start up likewise, 157 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:43,480 you have to do it in a structured, well analyzed 158 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,240 and with very good procedures, or you blow the place up. 159 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:53,159 And history says that usually refineries and petrochemical plants they 160 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,279 explode and they blow up during shutdown and during startups. Now, 161 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,639 to take that steak or those statements and to say 162 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,679 that there's no way they can shut down, No, no, 163 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:06,080 they can shut down. When a hurricane comes to the 164 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,600 Bay and the weathermen says we're thirty miles away, it's 165 00:09:10,639 --> 00:09:15,080 a category three, they immediately pull out those procedures and 166 00:09:15,159 --> 00:09:17,440 they know exactly what they need to do, and they 167 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,840 shut down, and most of the time they don't blow up. 168 00:09:19,879 --> 00:09:23,000 The plants and then two or three days later, you know, 169 00:09:23,039 --> 00:09:26,039 the hurricane goes by, and they usually get priority to 170 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,320 get started again. Also, when their processes are not producing 171 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,919 the quantities or the efficiencies, then they shut down and 172 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,240 they open up equipment, they fix things, and then they 173 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,600 come back. How can they shut down? This is an emergency. 174 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:42,799 We don't have the water they can shut down. 175 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 3: Let's take a step back here, because I think you're 176 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,000 touching on the question that I wanted to ask first, 177 00:09:47,879 --> 00:09:52,320 and that is basically, how does the city, this big, 178 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:58,080 this important get to this position? Dylan, like, walk us through, 179 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,519 Like how we got here? 180 00:10:02,039 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: Sure? 181 00:10:02,639 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, in short, everyone saw this coming 182 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,039 from miles away and kind of walked straight into it. 183 00:10:10,759 --> 00:10:13,159 And it has to do with three things really. The 184 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,519 first one is an over sold water supply, and this 185 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:20,480 results from the shale revolution, the fracking boom in Texas 186 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,960 when this huge increase in production of oil and gas 187 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:27,799 led to a downstream build out of petrochemical plants, refineries 188 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,639 and other stuff, which has shown just explained all consume 189 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:36,039 a lot of water, so that was coming. Number two 190 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:41,639 thing here is the overconfidence in the ability to build 191 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,480 a decyl plant that ultimately never has even come close 192 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:49,759 to being designed really salination, a seawater desalination plant. 193 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: You explain just very briefly what that is. 194 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:54,799 Speaker 4: So this is a plant that uses a tremendous amount 195 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:59,679 of energy and creates a tremendous amount of waste and 196 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,480 pull fresh water out of the ocean. In short, they 197 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,679 use them in Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, those places. So 198 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:12,240 this factor number two is that while this big industrial 199 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:15,799 boom was coming in, leaders in Corpus Christi, many without 200 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:20,080 the technical prowess that Chon has here, just said we're 201 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,919 going to build a desalination plant. Don't worry, everybody, come 202 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,320 in and we're gonna and we're going to build a 203 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,519 seawater desalination plant within two years. So that was the 204 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,919 number two factor they didn't do that. Number three drought 205 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,080 conditions approaching the worst ever on record in that region. 206 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 3: Dylan, you talked about the desalinate desalination plant in your story. 207 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,519 I know you've written about it before, Right, this was 208 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,080 a big idea, you know, Corpus Christy. Obviously on the 209 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,840 Gulf there's a lot of water right there. You obviously 210 00:11:47,879 --> 00:11:49,519 have to get it to a condition where it can 211 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:52,279 be used for the purposes that you describe. I think 212 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,960 a lot of people see desalination as a big solution 213 00:11:57,159 --> 00:12:01,759 going forward because you're not as vulnerable to drought and 214 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:03,879 things like that. But it seems to me that it 215 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:07,200 bumped up against issues of cost and technology and also 216 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:10,200 environmental concerns. Right, a lot of people concerned about sort 217 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,519 of the byproduct of that desalination talk a little bit 218 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,320 about how we that fell apart. 219 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:16,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, it bumped up against a lot of stuff. What 220 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,159 you're referencing is that the discharge of the brine, super 221 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:24,519 salty brine. It became clear that this would really wipe 222 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:28,919 out the bay ecosystem of Corpus Christie Bay. Nuasis Bay 223 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,399 is already you know, kind of wrecked. But these bays 224 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,799 depend on a moderate salinity which comes largely from the 225 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,600 inflow of freshwater rivers into those bays. So that is 226 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:43,360 the characteristic defining feature of this environment. And then when 227 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,639 you are putting a discharge of brine. If we have 228 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,399 a desil plant that's producing thirty million gallons per day 229 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:52,159 of fresh water, that means it's creating at least what 230 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,240 shown sixty million gallons per day of brine or more 231 00:12:55,279 --> 00:12:58,799 than that. Yeah, so this is this is you know, 232 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,120 you're going to increase the slity and it would wipe 233 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:07,440 out you know, phishing, economy, tourism, many things. But so 234 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:09,840 that was you know, what this all goes back to 235 00:13:10,039 --> 00:13:12,879 was just really shoddy planning. And what it really goes 236 00:13:12,919 --> 00:13:16,960 back to, I'm finding is processes that were dominated by 237 00:13:17,799 --> 00:13:22,720 public administrators and business people and marketing professionals when there 238 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,639 should have been engineers running the show. And what this 239 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,279 resulted in was just an overconfident claim that we're going 240 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,080 to build deesa plants without any recognition of what kind 241 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,879 of task that was at hand. And when things started 242 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:38,480 coming up like oh, you're going to destroy the Bay ecosystem, 243 00:13:38,759 --> 00:13:40,799 or as Chun would tell them, oh you're going to 244 00:13:40,879 --> 00:13:44,600 need a waste disposal operation that has two trucks every 245 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:48,600 hour for twenty four hours a day, they started to realize, oh, 246 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,639 this is you know, we got into more than we 247 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:53,360 could think here. The idea was like, they can build 248 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,240 them in Israel, they can build them in Saudi Arabia. 249 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,240 If they can do that, we can build them in Texas. 250 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,320 But as folks like Chung pointed out, those kind trees 251 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,519 have a very different regulatory regime, a very different way 252 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,080 of doing things, a very different way of supplying water 253 00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:09,279 to people. It just wasn't apples to apples, and so 254 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:12,039 the whole idea that they thought they were just going 255 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,840 to build a deesail plant in two years turned out 256 00:14:14,879 --> 00:14:16,279 to be like a total farce. 257 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 5: What have Yeah, let me just say this, Matthew and Eleanor, 258 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:27,960 we are ten years after they started talking about desalination, 259 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,240 the governor part of Corpus Christi Authority San Patrician Municipal 260 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:36,879 Water District Corpus Christi talking and talking and talking about 261 00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:42,279 desalination by reversals. Moses, Okay, we are ten years, ten 262 00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:47,120 years later, twenty twenty six. They have spent millions and 263 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:53,440 millions of dollars in false marketing propaganda, and ten years 264 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:56,759 they don't have what it takes to build a desalination plant. 265 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 266 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:58,519 Speaker 2: Let me ask about this though. 267 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there's obviously a lot to be learned from 268 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,519 sort of where this all went wrong in terms of 269 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,679 like the very active crisis that Corpus Christy is facing today. 270 00:15:08,679 --> 00:15:10,759 You know, as you reported in your story, the city 271 00:15:10,799 --> 00:15:14,600 has said that they are drilling emergency water wells. They 272 00:15:14,679 --> 00:15:20,399 are pursuing a groundwater program. They are potentially, you know, 273 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,759 looking back at resuming work on the seawater desalination plant. 274 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,519 Dylan like, what do you see as the path forward 275 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:28,759 for Corpus at this point? 276 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:31,759 Speaker 4: The path forward for Corpus this point is they need 277 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:34,799 to be urgently talking about how to ramp down demand, 278 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:38,080 how to cut customers off of the system as quickly 279 00:15:38,159 --> 00:15:41,039 as possible, as opposed to just and so this is 280 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:44,480 essentially slowing down the vehicle before a crash as opposed 281 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:48,000 to just continuing full speed into the crash. The government 282 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,919 continues to insist on these emergency well and pipeline programs, 283 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:54,759 which indeed they are doing, but by all accounts, much 284 00:15:54,799 --> 00:15:58,759 too late, and the problems encountered by these projects are 285 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:01,919 too you know, humorous to really go into just to 286 00:16:01,919 --> 00:16:05,919 say they are not going to keep you know, change 287 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,279 this crash. Course, what the city needs to be doing 288 00:16:08,279 --> 00:16:13,159 now is making these unprecedented plans, for example, asking questions 289 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,960 like who has the authority to shut down the cooling towers, 290 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,639 how are we going to do this? And what are 291 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:21,879 we going to do if water runs out entirely? Like 292 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,080 you know, a projections call for next year I. 293 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:28,799 Speaker 3: Want to dig a little bit deeper into that. Right, 294 00:16:28,879 --> 00:16:32,159 you talk about water running out entirely, which is obviously, 295 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,480 you know, the worst case scenario that you can imagine 296 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:41,039 in this situation. I've already mentioned Governor Abbott talking about 297 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,080 possibly stepping in, having to take over the city. I'm 298 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,200 interested in exploring whether there's anything in statute that would 299 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,200 actually allow for that. But just like, I mean, is 300 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,919 there any precedent for this, Like, do we have any 301 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,440 sense of what could actually be done in that worst 302 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,519 case scenario to you know, take care of the three 303 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,159 hundred thousand people that live there and the industry that 304 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:04,559 relies on water. 305 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,759 Speaker 4: No, no real precedent, I mean in the world. One 306 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:10,039 of the most best examples you have is Cape Town, 307 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,640 South Africa, which has come extremely close to running out 308 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,480 of water. But the huge difference in Cape Town is 309 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,160 what Chehn had explained to you, that Corpus Christie is 310 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,440 unique in its industrial water demand, and that industrial water 311 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:25,720 demand uses you know, more than half, maybe sixty or 312 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:29,240 seventy percent of all water consumption, and unlike your household, 313 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,279 you can't just dial that down. It stays. So it's 314 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:35,519 a question of who has the political will to cut 315 00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:38,440 these things off, you know, because we can't do like 316 00:17:38,519 --> 00:17:40,640 Cape Town and everyone just cut out all water but 317 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,559 what you drink? No, there's not a precedent or guidance 318 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,240 on how this would play out, and it is not 319 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,640 a lot of preparation. Okay, let me say this. I 320 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,599 went to Corpus Christi last week trying to report a 321 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,960 story on how they were preparing for this emergency that 322 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,039 everybody knew was and that their website said was coming. 323 00:18:02,599 --> 00:18:07,000 I became shocked to discover that there were no preparations whatsoever, 324 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,839 and nobody would barely even acknowledge this potential with me, 325 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,240 which their own website clearly indicated. So then I realized 326 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,880 this is deeply in denial. A lot of people feel 327 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,759 perhaps dangerously culpable here, and nobody wants to be the 328 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:22,359 one to say. 329 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: You know, what are you hearing from big industry on this? 330 00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:28,960 I mean, like, what you know? 331 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: I think there were some people in your story sort 332 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,599 of expressing surprise that they were not doing their own 333 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:35,039 you know, desalination projects, They were not doing their own 334 00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:36,200 sort of water projects. 335 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:37,759 Speaker 2: What are they saying? 336 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 4: Well, one thing I hear from big industry is that 337 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:42,599 they were all following the models of the city of 338 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,160 Corpus Christi, which is, you know, a mid sized city 339 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,599 government and not perhaps the foremost technical expertise and things 340 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,000 like that, and it seems a little bit invested in 341 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,119 maintaining an optimistic outlook. So this is so a lot 342 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,240 of the biggest industrial customers have become surprised by inside 343 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,960 Climate News reporting about how close the disaster is because 344 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,079 the city was kind of holding their cards close to 345 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,480 their chest, thinking they were gonna find a way out 346 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:12,720 of this. 347 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: So you mentioned like more recent cuts that have happened 348 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,440 in the past week or solely is that in reaction 349 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:22,000 to your story or what drove that? 350 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,559 Speaker 4: Not in the past week, in the upcoming month, there's 351 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,559 more the first cuts. Ever, what drove that? I think 352 00:19:28,599 --> 00:19:34,240 it was when all officials started looking into this and 353 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,319 and just I mean literally lots of people knew that, 354 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,240 but the city has not been forthcoming. You know, what 355 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,920 experts told me is that Cape Town, which I said, 356 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,000 when they had this situation, they put up a doomsday 357 00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:49,119 clock to day zero to show how everyone how serious 358 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,000 this was. In contrast, Corpus has the city officials have 359 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,720 totally refused to acknowledge perhaps until this reporting came out. 360 00:19:57,799 --> 00:20:00,559 The severity of the situation here. 361 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,519 Speaker 3: I'm curious now that you've brought up Cape Town, like, 362 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,599 how did Cape Town avoid the catastrophe? 363 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: Sure? 364 00:20:09,279 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 4: Well, as I said, big difference, they didn't have the 365 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,519 industrial water demand that they couldn't stop, so, but how 366 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:17,359 did they stop the catastrophe? For one, they made everybody's 367 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,079 water consumption public. Every customer, how much water they used 368 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,759 was public information, so you could see if your neighbors were, 369 00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:28,400 you know, not behaving. After a while, they invested a 370 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,400 lot of money installing devices on individual water customers that 371 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,400 cut you off after you consumed your allocation for that day, 372 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,680 so your water stopped running, and the doomsday clock. You know, 373 00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:43,759 they were very public that we are facing an existential crisis, 374 00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:48,160 and ultimately they were saved by really big rain. Wichita 375 00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:50,440 Falls came close to running out of water around twenty 376 00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:53,720 fifteen or maybe twenty eleven during that drought, saved by 377 00:20:53,759 --> 00:20:56,799 a really big rain about ninety days out. I think 378 00:20:56,839 --> 00:20:57,640 that's the plan here. 379 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 3: Also, you mentioned in your story kind of praying for 380 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,519 a hurricane, which is obviously an odd position. 381 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: For the end, right, Yeah, which would cause other problems 382 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,400 potentially yeah. I mean when you look at other places 383 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,519 like that, has there been Are there meaningful solutions out 384 00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:14,839 there for increasing supply? 385 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,279 Speaker 4: For increasing supply. 386 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:18,599 Speaker 5: No? 387 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:23,079 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, if we were China, we could 388 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:26,240 build a massive pipeline from the Mississippi River real Crik 389 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:28,240 to Corpus Christie like we do with oil and gas 390 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,400 pipelines from the Permium basin all the time. But in 391 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,720 our current schema, that is not really an option. Now 392 00:21:35,759 --> 00:21:37,599 talking with folks in the last few days, people have 393 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:41,759 raised the potential that the governor could issue an emergency 394 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:45,759 order to just do away with all obstacles and do 395 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:48,279 what needs to be done. But even in that case, 396 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:50,680 there's things like eminent domain, which gets you into a 397 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,279 real touchy ground if you could, you know, supersede that well. 398 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:56,599 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like there's going to be a 399 00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:59,319 lot more developing on this story and a lot more 400 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,880 to come. But certainly I think a warning sort of 401 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,079 to a lot of cities in Texas that are struggling 402 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:09,359 with water, maybe sort of slightly less extreme scale on 403 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,599 the demand from commercial customers, but still, you know, the 404 00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:15,759 state has put a lot of money in during the 405 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:18,559 less legislative session into shoring up the water supply, but 406 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,039 like a lot more to be done obviously, for sure. 407 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:24,559 Speaker 4: And I think one thing that this kind of highlights 408 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,359 is that all of the legislative talk around water and 409 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,200 all the political posturing on water to this point has 410 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,680 been irrelevant. All this water bill stuff in the legislature 411 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,720 and everything we've talked about up till this point is 412 00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:40,480 not really impactful to any water supply situation in the state. 413 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,039 All the solutions have been done basically by private companies 414 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,240 getting in there to build pipelines or cities doing groundwater 415 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:51,240 import projects things like that. I mean, you know, there's 416 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,960 sure there's been a Water Development Board funding to a 417 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,480 small degree, but yeah, this is without leadership right now. 418 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:02,799 Speaker 3: Well, and it takes time obviously for those projects to 419 00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:04,519 get online and everything like that. But I mean, it 420 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:09,680 really seemed like Abbot's frustration was with the city here 421 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:12,200 right like that that you know, he he mentioned what 422 00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:15,160 seven hundred and fifty million dollars that was being you know, 423 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,759 in state funds that had been gone to Corpus Christy 424 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,079 and and sort of asking the question of like where 425 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:22,880 did that money go and how did that hell? 426 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: I mean, is there truth to that. 427 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, so only about maybe fifty million dollars of that 428 00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:31,279 money was spent. It's not like they spent all of 429 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:34,000 it on nothing. Seven hundred and fifty million, but yeah, 430 00:23:34,039 --> 00:23:37,839 the idea of these low infra, low interest infrastructure loans 431 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,400 was that they were going to, you know, build a 432 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,640 water supply, and they did not do that. So I 433 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,079 think Abbot is a bit wondering, like what else did 434 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,000 you want me to do here? 435 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 5: And let me say something. Okay, the seven hundred and 436 00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:53,960 fifty million that he's talking about that does not even build, 437 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,960 that does not even build you a ten million gallon 438 00:23:58,839 --> 00:24:04,240 right now? A ten million Again, if you had everything ready, 439 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:10,839 everything ready, construction, engineering drawings, per meeting, the whole thing, 440 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:14,319 you would need nine hundred and fifty six million dollars 441 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,160 to do a ten million gallon a day. 442 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,759 Speaker 3: What I mean You've been in Corpus Christy for you know, 443 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,960 multiple trips. I mean, what are the people in that 444 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,920 city know or think about this? Right now? 445 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 4: Much too little? I would say, yeah, I mean my 446 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:35,599 grandparents lived in Corpus my whole life. I'm pretty familiar 447 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,640 with that. And when I started going around twenty twenty 448 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,720 two to report on this water supply situation. It has 449 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,160 remained generally out of the public eye. I would say 450 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,960 the news we published this last week has put it 451 00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:49,200 really more in the forefront than it ever has been. 452 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,119 But people are you know, as I said, the city 453 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,440 government's not forthcoming. They're not putting a doomsday clock saying 454 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,039 this is when we run out of water. They're saying, 455 00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:02,480 don't worry everyone, we got this handled. And people in Corpus, 456 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:04,279 I think, are wondering what the truth is here. 457 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 5: With the exception of some people, there's been people looking 458 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,440 at it even before I have, and they knew and 459 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,680 they're good people, and they get ignored. We all get ignored, 460 00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:19,359 we all get abused, and so that's why I take 461 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,759 the attitude I take. But generally speaking, Dylan is right. 462 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,839 The biggest majority of the population, you know, they well, 463 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,960 people have to work, people have to do things. Some 464 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,960 people still have faith in our broken government and broken 465 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,759 ballots and so but there's groups of people out there 466 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:38,599 that they knew well. 467 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:39,799 Speaker 2: I think we might have to leave it there. 468 00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: But thank you Dylan and Carnacion for joining us for 469 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,960 a great conversation. Be a lot more to unpack about 470 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:46,920 this going forward. 471 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: Thank you all. 472 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,519 Speaker 1: For joining us for the trip cast. Our producers are 473 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:53,279 Rob and Chris. You can find us anywhere you get 474 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,279 your podcasts, and we will see you next week.