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Acting on 68 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:03.919 a long time and fantasy, Michael Rafferty convinced Terry Lynn 69 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.439 McClintic along with them to kidnap, rape, and kill eighteen 70 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.159 eight year old beautiful Victoria Stafford. The events that followed 71 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.680 divided the community and changed the lives of an entire town. 72 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.960 The book we're featuring this evening is Taking Tory, the 73 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.159 true story of Terry Lynn mcclintick and Michael Rafferty, with 74 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.840 my special guest, journalist and author Kelly Banaski. Welcome to 75 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:31.639 the program, and thank you very much for a greatness interview. 76 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:37.439 Kelly Banaski, thank you for having me, Thank you very much, 77 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:41.879 and thank you for this book. Incredible. Let's get right 78 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:45.800 to who these people are, because we have a lot 79 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:51.199 to cover. It's an incredible a graphic book and an 80 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:57.000 incredibly horrifying story. Let's start with one of the main characters, 81 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.000 Terry Lynn mcclintick. You say she was born in nineteen 82 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:05.280 ninety Woodstock, Ontario. Tell her audience first a little bit 83 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:10.039 about Woodstock, Ontario and sort of the environment that Terry 84 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:12.639 Lynne mcclinta grew up, and told a little bit about 85 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:16.439 her early life and where she winds up at an 86 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:17.959 early age. 87 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:26.240 Woodstock is very community oriented. It's really small, but I 88 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.199 guess you would call it maybe the rough side of 89 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:33.920 tracks where where Terry Lynn was from. She she really 90 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:38.079 never had much of a chance in that town because 91 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:43.800 of the drug culture, the oxy cotton page pills area. 92 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:52.360 Terry Lynn's mother was an addict. She went from couch 93 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:56.920 to couch basically, and it was a friend of hers 94 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:03.040 that ended up adopting to when she was very small, 95 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:08.560 and she was also an addict. So Terry Lynn was 96 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.759 brought up in that culture where it was so prevalent 97 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.800 that it was almost it just it was the norm 98 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.319 for her to see pain pills on the daily, for 99 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:24.720 them to be bought and sold every day by everyone. 100 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.000 She knew it was just that part of part of 101 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.439 her life and part of the life of everybody in 102 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.800 that area and her community. And she hadn't moved around 103 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:38.399 a bit from different areas in Woodstock, but she the 104 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.560 family was always centered around the same thing. 105 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.959 You also talk about their occupations being exotic dancers, and 106 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:53.279 you say part time prostitutes, and you also talk. 107 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:55.600 About and her adopted mother exactly. 108 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:01.439 And then despite that, you know that Terry was adopted 109 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.279 by Carol, even though she was almost in the same 110 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.519 kind of situation, she was still adopted. She was allowed 111 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.480 to have Terry Lynn. About this. 112 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:18.399 With her other children, she'd had trouble with the authorities 113 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:22.600 of her abuse, but still she was allowed to adopt 114 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:23.439 Terry Lynn. 115 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:28.519 She had didn't have custody of her own two children, 116 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.399 and yet was awarded custody of Terry Lynn. 117 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:33.240 Right, that's correct. 118 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:41.240 Yeah, for a little bit. For for a time, and 119 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:45.720 as probably a lot of these people would experience, it 120 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.000 looked like things were looking up. And she met a 121 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:52.120 man named Rob mcclintick, where she got her name, decided 122 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.839 to get married and and tried and they filed for 123 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.560 legal custody of Terry Lynn. Tell Us a little bit 124 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.000 about tell us a little bit about this relationship and 125 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:04.079 what happened with that relationship. 126 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:08.759 Rob was kind of type where he saw the good 127 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.519 and everybody really and although he was also from that 128 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.160 area and familiar with the drug lifestyle, there was something 129 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:23.560 about Carol that he just believed in and she truly 130 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.240 did want to change her life, but she was just 131 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:30.680 too far, too far addicted, too far gone to where 132 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.480 she couldn't even when she tried to get off the 133 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:39.959 pain pills, she couldn't. She did straighten up long enough 134 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:45.360 to get custody back of her daughter, I believe, and 135 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.160 was working a regular job at a convenience or when 136 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.319 she and Rob decided to try for custody of terry 137 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.600 Lynn and they were awarded custody after I think it 138 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:02.120 was quite an extensive thing in order, but I think 139 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:04.959 it was about a year it took and they were 140 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.160 awarded custody, and things were goods for a while, but 141 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:13.240 motherhood's just too much for her and she slipped back 142 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:17.160 into heavy addiction, and there eventually came a point where 143 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:22.439 Rob just had had enough and he left. But Carol 144 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.639 took Terry Lynn and would travel from home to home 145 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.399 to home to home, but always go back to rob 146 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:34.360 because that was her stable point. And he would try 147 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.480 to provide for terry Lynn, but a lot of times 148 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.759 Carol would take the money and spend it on drugs 149 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:47.679 or party it away. But she continued to keep robbing 150 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.440 her life because that's the only way she could ever 151 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.960 straighten up. For any amount of time, be it a 152 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:59.000 weekend or a month. She just it was. Motherhood was 153 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.720 too much for her, and soon after Terry Lynn was 154 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.840 a toddler, she began slipping back into addiction. 155 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:13.039 You talk about the life of terry Lynn after that 156 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:19.320 with this neglect and somebody mother a guardian preoccupied with 157 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:25.200 her own problems and addictions and on lifestyle, and so 158 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:29.039 that Terry Lynn was victimized in what way was she 159 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:32.120 victimized at this early age? And then you talk about 160 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:34.519 some of the trouble that she had lashing out at 161 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:36.159 Carol her mother. 162 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:45.799 Later on, she was sexually abused by more than one person, 163 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:51.000 some family members and neighbors. She never told her mother. 164 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.399 When she did tell her mom about the family member, 165 00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:01.080 it was dismissed as this part of she life out 166 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.200 there no one. She didn't attempt to get her any 167 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:09.080 help or anything like that. She was severely neglected. There 168 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:15.039 was many many nights when she was preteen when she 169 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:17.759 would have to ask neighbors for food school when she 170 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:23.559 went steals food from school. But then, you know, her 171 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.919 mom would go sober for a while and things would 172 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:32.120 turn up better and she would feel more like a 173 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:36.279 normal girl. But then it would all start over again, 174 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:41.240 and she got to the point where she had been 175 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:46.120 abused by so many men, not just the family member 176 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.639 and the neighbors, and then she would she had experiences 177 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:53.639 with boys her own aide, and she got to a 178 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:57.360 point where she didn't want to interact much with men 179 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:03.720 at all, and she she sought out more girlfriends, but 180 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.519 then that didn't work out for her either. She found 181 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:12.960 that she couldn't get along with many people, and she 182 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.759 began to lash out at her mom, so she stayed 183 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.840 out of school more and more. She was known as 184 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.639 a fighter. She began to be so valatile just to 185 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:27.120 keep men away from her and then eventually women as well, 186 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.840 and she just would she would strike out of anyone, really, 187 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.120 but her mom took the brunt of it. On several occasions, 188 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:41.879 she hospitalized her from beating. She gave her she threatened 189 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.080 her with weapons, and eventually Carol did call the police 190 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.320 owner and more than once she went to choose an 191 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:55.720 healthy tension and jail for attacking her mother and other 192 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:56.679 girls in the school. 193 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:04.720 You see, she becomes a real tough young lady, taking 194 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:10.360 nothing from anyone and having crimes like robbery at knife point, 195 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.759 stabbed a man in the back. She even attacked the 196 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:18.279 police as well. And so at a time she had 197 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.240 a lengthy record at US detention and she attacked people 198 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:28.200 even in detention themselves. So, and there was some stuff 199 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.840 that you include here, some writings that she included. Maybe 200 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.200 maybe we can leave that, or maybe we can talk 201 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.320 about that some of the correspondent she had with inmates 202 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:45.360 that she bumped into in the in these institutions, maybe 203 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.159 just talk about some of the things that were going 204 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:51.879 around in her mind that she would correspond with other inmates. 205 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:52.799 What she did say. 206 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.240 Some of those letters were brought out in trial as well, 207 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.639 because she expressed such a bloodlust where she just no 208 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.000 bones about it, described the crimes that she hoped to 209 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:12.039 commit someday and on specific people and then just anyone 210 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:18.000 in general. And she felt she had vampireic tendencies and 211 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.600 she was very descriptive about the bones she would break 212 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.600 and the damage she would impart on just anyone in general. 213 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:31.080 And she would she and the girl that she was 214 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.440 writing to. And the majority of these letters had nicknames 215 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.840 for their selves. They would you know, gangster bitches and 216 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.320 a variety of different things. I can't recall them all now, 217 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:48.399 but that she prided herself on how mean she was 218 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:51.840 and that she would hurt and kill anybody. She had 219 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.480 no problem with it. I always thought it was a 220 00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:00.200 mechanism to just keep people away from her. But she 221 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:05.600 also sought out problems in violence from people that were 222 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:10.159 not bothering her or you know, she did several or 223 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:18.000 several robberies and assented robberies and just she didn't it 224 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.039 didn't matter to her. Even if she thought the person 225 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.320 may not have anything, she'd take whatever they had to 226 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.679 close up their back that she so desired. And yeah, 227 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:32.360 the letters in the Reform and the juvenile detention center 228 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:33.960 came back to haunt her for sure. 229 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:42.120 Now let's talk about this collision, this fateful, unholy collision 230 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.480 with Michael Rafferty. And you say he was the youngest child, 231 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.200 he had two brothers. He was born October twenty ninth, 232 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.919 nineteen eighty and he spent part of his youth with 233 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.039 his aunt and his uncle in the small village of 234 00:14:56.120 --> 00:15:01.519 Drayton outside Kitchener, again in the southern Ontario area near Toronto, 235 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.919 and he even attended school briefly in a suburb of Toronto, 236 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:12.240 Richmond Hill. Talk about a little bit about some of 237 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.840 the things that he studied at college, because there isn't 238 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.360 much about his local i mean, his early life, but 239 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.799 talk about his local college stint and what he did there, 240 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:26.639 and a little bit about his success or non success 241 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.120 in his life and his career. 242 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:37.279 Michael is a strange person. His childhood was not that bad. 243 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.440 He wasn't abused, you know, he had the regular sort 244 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:46.080 of growing up most kids there. Things went average. He 245 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.279 had some setbacks, but nothing that was you would consider 246 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:53.720 neglect or abuse or he by all rights he should 247 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.799 have been a normal person. But he, even from a 248 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:05.120 young age sort of was uh unusual in that he 249 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:09.679 he was very narcissistic. Everything was about him. And while 250 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.720 that's you know, part of the course with say toddlers, 251 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.519 he never got out of that stage. Everything was about him, 252 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:23.039 and he was very intelligent. He spent a few. He 253 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:26.960 did not graduate, but he did a stint in college 254 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:31.559 and he studied a variety of things. Actually, he did 255 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:38.039 some psychology and was not that he got passing grades. 256 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:44.559 He did some autobody repair classes, he did some journalism classes. 257 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.960 He did some medical classes, and some botany classes. He 258 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.519 seemed to be trying to find his his his interests. 259 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.840 And while he did not really excel anywhere, he didn't 260 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:04.559 fail out. He could have made quite a difference had 261 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:05.599 echose other paths. 262 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.319 You talk about some of his behavior as well. You 263 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:16.279 say narcissistic, but he was sponging, for lack of a 264 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.039 better word, off of as many women as he possibly could, 265 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.440 getting whatever he possibly could, drugs, money, in a place 266 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.680 to stay, and that was his style. And then you 267 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:31.519 talk about this small place but tore up. Pardon me. 268 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.759 Terry Lynn and Michael Rafferty meeting. How do they meet 269 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.759 and how does their relationship quickly proceed? 270 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:45.599 They meet at a pizza place and she's waiting in 271 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.440 lying behind him, and he makes a comment about how 272 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.880 pretty she is or something along those lines, and they 273 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.000 start talking and he writes his number on a pizza box, 274 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.119 and she goes home and calls him, and they spent 275 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.519 the rest of time together. From that moment on, they 276 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:10.799 were always together and they seemed to be They matched 277 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:16.440 up pretty well, which is surprising because of Terry Lynne's attitude. 278 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:21.279 She really wasn't i She wasn't after a boyfriend or 279 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:26.960 anything like that, But it was his attitude of he h. 280 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.119 He put off a persona of just being free, willing, 281 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.720 and he he had no worries, no troubles, and that 282 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.759 appealed to her. He didn't really pressure her for anything 283 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.880 right off the bat. He gave her the impression that, 284 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.759 you know, she could be like he was. He had 285 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.200 no worries, He lived whatever he wanted to do, and 286 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.440 he didn't have to work. He found money here and there, 287 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.920 and people just gave him money. And immediately she she 288 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.400 felt a need for that cause it was so opposed 289 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.240 to the life that she had lived her entire life. 290 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:08.200 She didn't know anything other. So they began basically living 291 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:12.160 together at everyone else's house. They would crash here, crash there. 292 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:16.279 He stayed with her at Carol's some and they would 293 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:22.720 get motel rooms and stay together and began using oxy 294 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:27.000 cotton together, and that was really the beginning of the end. 295 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.880 You say, at first she was his connection, and so 296 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.039 this kind of thing was going on, and they were 297 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.680 just a perfect match because of the things that they 298 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.920 had in common, as well as other things as well, 299 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.759 but this was one of the main things in their life. Obviously. 300 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.880 You say that he's injecting two eighty miligram oxy cotton 301 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.880 daily and then as many percocets as he could find. 302 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:00.839 And so Terry Lynn's growing loyalty and her oxycock Coughton 303 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:07.359 connection eventually make Michael realize that Terry Lynn should be 304 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.559 his one and only and so then they're inseparable. And 305 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.799 some of the things you talk about him going on 306 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:17.160 these drives and he starts talking about you talk about 307 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.799 he has incredible sex drive, and you say that Terry Lynn, 308 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.079 really that's not what it started off to be. But 309 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.839 what are they talking about when they're going on these drives, 310 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.240 And from the very beginning, what does he start talking about. 311 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.880 To the area that Terry Lynn had been here and 312 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:39.119 there and everywhere with Carol, she knew everyone that sold everything, 313 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.440 So that right off the bat interested him and that's 314 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.160 why he kept coming around. So that became closer and closer. 315 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:50.640 She could buy drugs anywhere, any kind of drugs from anybody, 316 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.359 and he liked it. And then I get you know, 317 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:02.240 there's sex. Life became more of more of an important 318 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.799 thing to both of them other than the drugs, and 319 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:09.880 he did realize that whatever he told her to do, 320 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:14.880 she would do it. I think this came on slowly 321 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:19.400 because of him being the only person that had ever 322 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.640 stayed around her for any length of time and to 323 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.799 give her as much as she was given him. She'd 324 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.680 never had any sort of sexual relationship that didn't end 325 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:36.519 with a punch in the face. So finding somebody to 326 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.000 have sex with where it was as beautiful as they 327 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:46.119 could as she had ever had it, she was devoted. 328 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:49.440 She never had a relationship anything like that before in 329 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:53.599 her life. So then you know, they would take these 330 00:21:53.680 --> 00:22:00.160 rides together, usually trying to find somewhere to stay for 331 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.519 the night or on a trip to buy drugs, and 332 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.279 they began to share parts of their past with each other, 333 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:15.000 personalities and their likes and dislikes, And he began to 334 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:21.759 tell her that he had a sexual attraction to young girls, 335 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:30.920 girls ten and under specifically, and to begin with, she 336 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.839 thought that he was trying to shock her. This is 337 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:39.559 what she told me that she felt that it was 338 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:42.799 a game at first, that he was trying to see 339 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.319 if she would stick around if he you know, like 340 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:47.799 he would say the most deplorable things he could come 341 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:53.359 up with, and she took it as a test of, 342 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.240 you know, how down she was if she was really 343 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.440 going to stick around for him. By things became more 344 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:05.519 serious where he would actually ask her, what would you 345 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:09.359 do if I if I asked you to snatch that 346 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.599 little girl right there? And she would say, well, I 347 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.799 would do it, and he would go to her and 348 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:19.119 we'll do it then, and she would laugh and they 349 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.680 would get over it, and a few days later he 350 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.000 would ask her again, if we say a little girl, 351 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.000 will you will you snatch her? And Terry Lynn would 352 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.640 say yes, I will, But then she would hesitate and 353 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:40.039 let the moment go. And then he became undeniably serious 354 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:46.319 about it. Actually in bed the day that he told 355 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:49.400 her that it was something she had to do, there 356 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.240 was no more he wasn't going to ask her anymore, 357 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:57.359 and she said, well, we can't just snatch somebody off 358 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.319 the street. And that's when they started to actually come 359 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.440 up with a plan how they would how they would 360 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:03.839 do it. 361 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:15.480 You talk about that they discuss scenarios, hypothetical situations, and 362 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:22.039 then the reactions and actual actual plans. And you say, 363 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.160 part of this too is what we haven't mentioned is 364 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.640 that part of the reason they're together as well. One 365 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.480 thing they have in common is also is that he 366 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.640 likes to choke women, strangle women, choke them, and she 367 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.720 doesn't mind that where other women finally came to their 368 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:42.200 senses and ran off. I can't believe that a little 369 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:43.720 bit of love, you even say in the book at 370 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.160 one point he says, if I just somebody just gives 371 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.720 you a little bit of love, that's what really what 372 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.839 you're looking for. He couldn't believe what literally had to 373 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.359 do to retain this woman. So he's very impressed by that. 374 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:02.880 Now you talk about also that the make these plans. Well, 375 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:09.359 now let's meanwhile segue to this little girl, Victoria Elizabeth 376 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:17.039 Marie Stafford, and who she was and how she came 377 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:23.400 to It's unbelievable, this is two thousand and nine, no 378 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.000 matter where you are, that people would be allowed to 379 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.720 go to school alone. So let's talk about who she 380 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.839 was and the kind of family she was and her 381 00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.319 mother and her stepfather, because it's important who these people are, 382 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:40.720 and when this event goes down, tell us a little 383 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.400 bit about her living situation and the kind of girl 384 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:46.279 that she really was and the family that really was 385 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.519 that she lived with. 386 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:55.079 She lived with her mom and stepdad. She was just 387 00:25:55.160 --> 00:26:00.400 a regular little girl, happy little girl. She wasn't abused 388 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.680 or anything like that. Her mom and stepdad did. Uh, 389 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.400 they were in the sort of party culture, and her 390 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:13.480 mom did use the POxy cotton and she was a 391 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:19.200 customer of Carol and Cherry Lynn. She had bought uh 392 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:24.000 pil pills from them in the past. And UH, she'd 393 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:28.599 had some trouble with the authorities. She had been in 394 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.799 and out of jail for a for minimal things, no 395 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.039 felonies or anything like that, but drug related things. And uh, 396 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:44.000 it was probably the worst mistake she ever made. But 397 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.359 she sent her little girl to school that day alone. 398 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.000 But the school wasn't far away, and she did, I 399 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:56.559 I believe, watch her partially the way, and then that 400 00:26:56.680 --> 00:26:57.920 was the last time she saw her. 401 00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:05.640