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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them.
Speaker 5: Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 6: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening, an eighteen year old woman abused from birth
Speaker 5: in a chronic con man collide to concoct the most
Speaker 5: evil pairing since Carla Hamalka and Paul Bernardo. Acting on
Speaker 5: a long time and fantasy, Michael Rafferty convinced Terry Lynn
Speaker 5: McClintic along with them to kidnap, rape, and kill eighteen
Speaker 5: eight year old beautiful Victoria Stafford. The events that followed
Speaker 5: divided the community and changed the lives of an entire town.
Speaker 5: The book we're featuring this evening is Taking Tory, the
Speaker 5: true story of Terry Lynn mcclintick and Michael Rafferty, with
Speaker 5: my special guest, journalist and author Kelly Banaski. Welcome to
Speaker 5: the program, and thank you very much for a greatness interview.
Speaker 5: Kelly Banaski, thank you for having me, Thank you very much,
Speaker 5: and thank you for this book. Incredible. Let's get right
Speaker 5: to who these people are, because we have a lot
Speaker 5: to cover. It's an incredible a graphic book and an
Speaker 5: incredibly horrifying story. Let's start with one of the main characters,
Speaker 5: Terry Lynn mcclintick. You say she was born in nineteen
Speaker 5: ninety Woodstock, Ontario. Tell her audience first a little bit
Speaker 5: about Woodstock, Ontario and sort of the environment that Terry
Speaker 5: Lynne mcclinta grew up, and told a little bit about
Speaker 5: her early life and where she winds up at an
Speaker 5: early age.
Speaker 2: Woodstock is very community oriented. It's really small, but I
Speaker 2: guess you would call it maybe the rough side of
Speaker 2: tracks where where Terry Lynn was from. She she really
Speaker 2: never had much of a chance in that town because
Speaker 2: of the drug culture, the oxy cotton page pills area.
Speaker 2: Terry Lynn's mother was an addict. She went from couch
Speaker 2: to couch basically, and it was a friend of hers
Speaker 2: that ended up adopting to when she was very small,
Speaker 2: and she was also an addict. So Terry Lynn was
Speaker 2: brought up in that culture where it was so prevalent
Speaker 2: that it was almost it just it was the norm
Speaker 2: for her to see pain pills on the daily, for
Speaker 2: them to be bought and sold every day by everyone.
Speaker 2: She knew it was just that part of part of
Speaker 2: her life and part of the life of everybody in
Speaker 2: that area and her community. And she hadn't moved around
Speaker 2: a bit from different areas in Woodstock, but she the
Speaker 2: family was always centered around the same thing.
Speaker 5: You also talk about their occupations being exotic dancers, and
Speaker 5: you say part time prostitutes, and you also talk.
Speaker 2: About and her adopted mother exactly.
Speaker 5: And then despite that, you know that Terry was adopted
Speaker 5: by Carol, even though she was almost in the same
Speaker 5: kind of situation, she was still adopted. She was allowed
Speaker 5: to have Terry Lynn. About this.
Speaker 2: With her other children, she'd had trouble with the authorities
Speaker 2: of her abuse, but still she was allowed to adopt
Speaker 2: Terry Lynn.
Speaker 5: She had didn't have custody of her own two children,
Speaker 5: and yet was awarded custody of Terry Lynn.
Speaker 2: Right, that's correct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for a little bit. For for a time, and
Speaker 5: as probably a lot of these people would experience, it
Speaker 5: looked like things were looking up. And she met a
Speaker 5: man named Rob mcclintick, where she got her name, decided
Speaker 5: to get married and and tried and they filed for
Speaker 5: legal custody of Terry Lynn. Tell Us a little bit
Speaker 5: about tell us a little bit about this relationship and
Speaker 5: what happened with that relationship.
Speaker 2: Rob was kind of type where he saw the good
Speaker 2: and everybody really and although he was also from that
Speaker 2: area and familiar with the drug lifestyle, there was something
Speaker 2: about Carol that he just believed in and she truly
Speaker 2: did want to change her life, but she was just
Speaker 2: too far, too far addicted, too far gone to where
Speaker 2: she couldn't even when she tried to get off the
Speaker 2: pain pills, she couldn't. She did straighten up long enough
Speaker 2: to get custody back of her daughter, I believe, and
Speaker 2: was working a regular job at a convenience or when
Speaker 2: she and Rob decided to try for custody of terry
Speaker 2: Lynn and they were awarded custody after I think it
Speaker 2: was quite an extensive thing in order, but I think
Speaker 2: it was about a year it took and they were
Speaker 2: awarded custody, and things were goods for a while, but
Speaker 2: motherhood's just too much for her and she slipped back
Speaker 2: into heavy addiction, and there eventually came a point where
Speaker 2: Rob just had had enough and he left. But Carol
Speaker 2: took Terry Lynn and would travel from home to home
Speaker 2: to home to home, but always go back to rob
Speaker 2: because that was her stable point. And he would try
Speaker 2: to provide for terry Lynn, but a lot of times
Speaker 2: Carol would take the money and spend it on drugs
Speaker 2: or party it away. But she continued to keep robbing
Speaker 2: her life because that's the only way she could ever
Speaker 2: straighten up. For any amount of time, be it a
Speaker 2: weekend or a month. She just it was. Motherhood was
Speaker 2: too much for her, and soon after Terry Lynn was
Speaker 2: a toddler, she began slipping back into addiction.
Speaker 5: You talk about the life of terry Lynn after that
Speaker 5: with this neglect and somebody mother a guardian preoccupied with
Speaker 5: her own problems and addictions and on lifestyle, and so
Speaker 5: that Terry Lynn was victimized in what way was she
Speaker 5: victimized at this early age? And then you talk about
Speaker 5: some of the trouble that she had lashing out at
Speaker 5: Carol her mother.
Speaker 2: Later on, she was sexually abused by more than one person,
Speaker 2: some family members and neighbors. She never told her mother.
Speaker 2: When she did tell her mom about the family member,
Speaker 2: it was dismissed as this part of she life out
Speaker 2: there no one. She didn't attempt to get her any
Speaker 2: help or anything like that. She was severely neglected. There
Speaker 2: was many many nights when she was preteen when she
Speaker 2: would have to ask neighbors for food school when she
Speaker 2: went steals food from school. But then, you know, her
Speaker 2: mom would go sober for a while and things would
Speaker 2: turn up better and she would feel more like a
Speaker 2: normal girl. But then it would all start over again,
Speaker 2: and she got to the point where she had been
Speaker 2: abused by so many men, not just the family member
Speaker 2: and the neighbors, and then she would she had experiences
Speaker 2: with boys her own aide, and she got to a
Speaker 2: point where she didn't want to interact much with men
Speaker 2: at all, and she she sought out more girlfriends, but
Speaker 2: then that didn't work out for her either. She found
Speaker 2: that she couldn't get along with many people, and she
Speaker 2: began to lash out at her mom, so she stayed
Speaker 2: out of school more and more. She was known as
Speaker 2: a fighter. She began to be so valatile just to
Speaker 2: keep men away from her and then eventually women as well,
Speaker 2: and she just would she would strike out of anyone, really,
Speaker 2: but her mom took the brunt of it. On several occasions,
Speaker 2: she hospitalized her from beating. She gave her she threatened
Speaker 2: her with weapons, and eventually Carol did call the police
Speaker 2: owner and more than once she went to choose an
Speaker 2: healthy tension and jail for attacking her mother and other
Speaker 2: girls in the school.
Speaker 5: You see, she becomes a real tough young lady, taking
Speaker 5: nothing from anyone and having crimes like robbery at knife point,
Speaker 5: stabbed a man in the back. She even attacked the
Speaker 5: police as well. And so at a time she had
Speaker 5: a lengthy record at US detention and she attacked people
Speaker 5: even in detention themselves. So, and there was some stuff
Speaker 5: that you include here, some writings that she included. Maybe
Speaker 5: maybe we can leave that, or maybe we can talk
Speaker 5: about that some of the correspondent she had with inmates
Speaker 5: that she bumped into in the in these institutions, maybe
Speaker 5: just talk about some of the things that were going
Speaker 5: around in her mind that she would correspond with other inmates.
Speaker 5: What she did say.
Speaker 2: Some of those letters were brought out in trial as well,
Speaker 2: because she expressed such a bloodlust where she just no
Speaker 2: bones about it, described the crimes that she hoped to
Speaker 2: commit someday and on specific people and then just anyone
Speaker 2: in general. And she felt she had vampireic tendencies and
Speaker 2: she was very descriptive about the bones she would break
Speaker 2: and the damage she would impart on just anyone in general.
Speaker 2: And she would she and the girl that she was
Speaker 2: writing to. And the majority of these letters had nicknames
Speaker 2: for their selves. They would you know, gangster bitches and
Speaker 2: a variety of different things. I can't recall them all now,
Speaker 2: but that she prided herself on how mean she was
Speaker 2: and that she would hurt and kill anybody. She had
Speaker 2: no problem with it. I always thought it was a
Speaker 2: mechanism to just keep people away from her. But she
Speaker 2: also sought out problems in violence from people that were
Speaker 2: not bothering her or you know, she did several or
Speaker 2: several robberies and assented robberies and just she didn't it
Speaker 2: didn't matter to her. Even if she thought the person
Speaker 2: may not have anything, she'd take whatever they had to
Speaker 2: close up their back that she so desired. And yeah,
Speaker 2: the letters in the Reform and the juvenile detention center
Speaker 2: came back to haunt her for sure.
Speaker 5: Now let's talk about this collision, this fateful, unholy collision
Speaker 5: with Michael Rafferty. And you say he was the youngest child,
Speaker 5: he had two brothers. He was born October twenty ninth,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty and he spent part of his youth with
Speaker 5: his aunt and his uncle in the small village of
Speaker 5: Drayton outside Kitchener, again in the southern Ontario area near Toronto,
Speaker 5: and he even attended school briefly in a suburb of Toronto,
Speaker 5: Richmond Hill. Talk about a little bit about some of
Speaker 5: the things that he studied at college, because there isn't
Speaker 5: much about his local i mean, his early life, but
Speaker 5: talk about his local college stint and what he did there,
Speaker 5: and a little bit about his success or non success
Speaker 5: in his life and his career.
Speaker 2: Michael is a strange person. His childhood was not that bad.
Speaker 2: He wasn't abused, you know, he had the regular sort
Speaker 2: of growing up most kids there. Things went average. He
Speaker 2: had some setbacks, but nothing that was you would consider
Speaker 2: neglect or abuse or he by all rights he should
Speaker 2: have been a normal person. But he, even from a
Speaker 2: young age sort of was uh unusual in that he
Speaker 2: he was very narcissistic. Everything was about him. And while
Speaker 2: that's you know, part of the course with say toddlers,
Speaker 2: he never got out of that stage. Everything was about him,
Speaker 2: and he was very intelligent. He spent a few. He
Speaker 2: did not graduate, but he did a stint in college
Speaker 2: and he studied a variety of things. Actually, he did
Speaker 2: some psychology and was not that he got passing grades.
Speaker 2: He did some autobody repair classes, he did some journalism classes.
Speaker 2: He did some medical classes, and some botany classes. He
Speaker 2: seemed to be trying to find his his his interests.
Speaker 2: And while he did not really excel anywhere, he didn't
Speaker 2: fail out. He could have made quite a difference had
Speaker 2: echose other paths.
Speaker 5: You talk about some of his behavior as well. You
Speaker 5: say narcissistic, but he was sponging, for lack of a
Speaker 5: better word, off of as many women as he possibly could,
Speaker 5: getting whatever he possibly could, drugs, money, in a place
Speaker 5: to stay, and that was his style. And then you
Speaker 5: talk about this small place but tore up. Pardon me.
Speaker 5: Terry Lynn and Michael Rafferty meeting. How do they meet
Speaker 5: and how does their relationship quickly proceed?
Speaker 2: They meet at a pizza place and she's waiting in
Speaker 2: lying behind him, and he makes a comment about how
Speaker 2: pretty she is or something along those lines, and they
Speaker 2: start talking and he writes his number on a pizza box,
Speaker 2: and she goes home and calls him, and they spent
Speaker 2: the rest of time together. From that moment on, they
Speaker 2: were always together and they seemed to be They matched
Speaker 2: up pretty well, which is surprising because of Terry Lynne's attitude.
Speaker 2: She really wasn't i She wasn't after a boyfriend or
Speaker 2: anything like that, But it was his attitude of he h.
Speaker 2: He put off a persona of just being free, willing,
Speaker 2: and he he had no worries, no troubles, and that
Speaker 2: appealed to her. He didn't really pressure her for anything
Speaker 2: right off the bat. He gave her the impression that,
Speaker 2: you know, she could be like he was. He had
Speaker 2: no worries, He lived whatever he wanted to do, and
Speaker 2: he didn't have to work. He found money here and there,
Speaker 2: and people just gave him money. And immediately she she
Speaker 2: felt a need for that cause it was so opposed
Speaker 2: to the life that she had lived her entire life.
Speaker 2: She didn't know anything other. So they began basically living
Speaker 2: together at everyone else's house. They would crash here, crash there.
Speaker 2: He stayed with her at Carol's some and they would
Speaker 2: get motel rooms and stay together and began using oxy
Speaker 2: cotton together, and that was really the beginning of the end.
Speaker 5: You say, at first she was his connection, and so
Speaker 5: this kind of thing was going on, and they were
Speaker 5: just a perfect match because of the things that they
Speaker 5: had in common, as well as other things as well,
Speaker 5: but this was one of the main things in their life. Obviously.
Speaker 5: You say that he's injecting two eighty miligram oxy cotton
Speaker 5: daily and then as many percocets as he could find.
Speaker 5: And so Terry Lynn's growing loyalty and her oxycock Coughton
Speaker 5: connection eventually make Michael realize that Terry Lynn should be
Speaker 5: his one and only and so then they're inseparable. And
Speaker 5: some of the things you talk about him going on
Speaker 5: these drives and he starts talking about you talk about
Speaker 5: he has incredible sex drive, and you say that Terry Lynn,
Speaker 5: really that's not what it started off to be. But
Speaker 5: what are they talking about when they're going on these drives,
Speaker 5: And from the very beginning, what does he start talking about.
Speaker 2: To the area that Terry Lynn had been here and
Speaker 2: there and everywhere with Carol, she knew everyone that sold everything,
Speaker 2: So that right off the bat interested him and that's
Speaker 2: why he kept coming around. So that became closer and closer.
Speaker 2: She could buy drugs anywhere, any kind of drugs from anybody,
Speaker 2: and he liked it. And then I get you know,
Speaker 2: there's sex. Life became more of more of an important
Speaker 2: thing to both of them other than the drugs, and
Speaker 2: he did realize that whatever he told her to do,
Speaker 2: she would do it. I think this came on slowly
Speaker 2: because of him being the only person that had ever
Speaker 2: stayed around her for any length of time and to
Speaker 2: give her as much as she was given him. She'd
Speaker 2: never had any sort of sexual relationship that didn't end
Speaker 2: with a punch in the face. So finding somebody to
Speaker 2: have sex with where it was as beautiful as they
Speaker 2: could as she had ever had it, she was devoted.
Speaker 2: She never had a relationship anything like that before in
Speaker 2: her life. So then you know, they would take these
Speaker 2: rides together, usually trying to find somewhere to stay for
Speaker 2: the night or on a trip to buy drugs, and
Speaker 2: they began to share parts of their past with each other,
Speaker 2: personalities and their likes and dislikes, And he began to
Speaker 2: tell her that he had a sexual attraction to young girls,
Speaker 2: girls ten and under specifically, and to begin with, she
Speaker 2: thought that he was trying to shock her. This is
Speaker 2: what she told me that she felt that it was
Speaker 2: a game at first, that he was trying to see
Speaker 2: if she would stick around if he you know, like
Speaker 2: he would say the most deplorable things he could come
Speaker 2: up with, and she took it as a test of,
Speaker 2: you know, how down she was if she was really
Speaker 2: going to stick around for him. By things became more
Speaker 2: serious where he would actually ask her, what would you
Speaker 2: do if I if I asked you to snatch that
Speaker 2: little girl right there? And she would say, well, I
Speaker 2: would do it, and he would go to her and
Speaker 2: we'll do it then, and she would laugh and they
Speaker 2: would get over it, and a few days later he
Speaker 2: would ask her again, if we say a little girl,
Speaker 2: will you will you snatch her? And Terry Lynn would
Speaker 2: say yes, I will, But then she would hesitate and
Speaker 2: let the moment go. And then he became undeniably serious
Speaker 2: about it. Actually in bed the day that he told
Speaker 2: her that it was something she had to do, there
Speaker 2: was no more he wasn't going to ask her anymore,
Speaker 2: and she said, well, we can't just snatch somebody off
Speaker 2: the street. And that's when they started to actually come
Speaker 2: up with a plan how they would how they would
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 5: You talk about that they discuss scenarios, hypothetical situations, and
Speaker 5: then the reactions and actual actual plans. And you say,
Speaker 5: part of this too is what we haven't mentioned is
Speaker 5: that part of the reason they're together as well. One
Speaker 5: thing they have in common is also is that he
Speaker 5: likes to choke women, strangle women, choke them, and she
Speaker 5: doesn't mind that where other women finally came to their
Speaker 5: senses and ran off. I can't believe that a little
Speaker 5: bit of love, you even say in the book at
Speaker 5: one point he says, if I just somebody just gives
Speaker 5: you a little bit of love, that's what really what
Speaker 5: you're looking for. He couldn't believe what literally had to
Speaker 5: do to retain this woman. So he's very impressed by that.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about also that the make these plans. Well,
Speaker 5: now let's meanwhile segue to this little girl, Victoria Elizabeth
Speaker 5: Marie Stafford, and who she was and how she came
Speaker 5: to It's unbelievable, this is two thousand and nine, no
Speaker 5: matter where you are, that people would be allowed to
Speaker 5: go to school alone. So let's talk about who she
Speaker 5: was and the kind of family she was and her
Speaker 5: mother and her stepfather, because it's important who these people are,
Speaker 5: and when this event goes down, tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about her living situation and the kind of girl
Speaker 5: that she really was and the family that really was
Speaker 5: that she lived with.
Speaker 2: She lived with her mom and stepdad. She was just
Speaker 2: a regular little girl, happy little girl. She wasn't abused
Speaker 2: or anything like that. Her mom and stepdad did. Uh,
Speaker 2: they were in the sort of party culture, and her
Speaker 2: mom did use the POxy cotton and she was a
Speaker 2: customer of Carol and Cherry Lynn. She had bought uh
Speaker 2: pil pills from them in the past. And UH, she'd
Speaker 2: had some trouble with the authorities. She had been in
Speaker 2: and out of jail for a for minimal things, no
Speaker 2: felonies or anything like that, but drug related things. And uh,
Speaker 2: it was probably the worst mistake she ever made. But
Speaker 2: she sent her little girl to school that day alone.
Speaker 2: But the school wasn't far away, and she did, I
Speaker 2: I believe, watch her partially the way, and then that
Speaker 2: was the last time she saw her.
Speaker 5: You talk about the plans that this diabolical couple has,
Speaker 5: and one of them is that they've gone this route before.
Speaker 5: They've gone similar routes near this school. You talk about
Speaker 5: Victoria Stafford's school, and they called her Tory on April
Speaker 5: ninet eighth, two thousand and nine. Tell us what this
Speaker 5: diabolical couple is up to and how they collide with
Speaker 5: Tory Stafford.
Speaker 2: They were riding around looking for a victim. It was
Speaker 2: the day. I believe they perhaps had been out one
Speaker 2: day before that and nothing had turned up. But they
Speaker 2: had cruised this route before, and they went by while
Speaker 2: school was in session and she spotted Tory coming out.
Speaker 2: Terry Lynn and Michael spotted her, and she was exactly
Speaker 2: what he had in mind, exactly what he'd been looking for.
Speaker 2: He wanted a younger girl, younger than ten, with blonde
Speaker 2: hair and fair skin. And Terry Lynn approached her and
Speaker 2: asked her about helping her find a dog. Wanted to
Speaker 2: see her dog, I think or her dog was lost.
Speaker 2: But she took her hand and walked with her straight
Speaker 2: out into the road and into the car people. There's
Speaker 2: been a lot of speculation on whether Terry Lynn knew
Speaker 2: who Tory was when she saw her, because of the
Speaker 2: connection with her her mother, but she says that she
Speaker 2: did not know that she had never really seen Toy,
Speaker 2: only her mom, and she doesn't she claims that she
Speaker 2: did not know who Toy was when she kidnapped her.
Speaker 5: You say that he finally he kept prodding her before.
Speaker 5: You're not going to do this. You don't have what
Speaker 5: it takes to do this to goad her Terry Lynn
Speaker 5: into doing this. And I find it odd too, and
Speaker 5: we'll discuss this after, but that she had sent this
Speaker 5: inmate previously about her ideas of killing and her ideas
Speaker 5: of murdering, and her ideas of destroying someone, so at
Speaker 5: least this day seemed reasonable that she would be susceptible,
Speaker 5: unbelievably to this guy's goating and challenging and challenging her
Speaker 5: to finally do this. So Terry Tory, pardon me, was
Speaker 5: the first girl blonde nearest by herself that she could spot.
Speaker 5: She talked to her about missing puppies, and she knew
Speaker 5: the kind of puppy that she had. Or she asked
Speaker 5: if she could help identify this poppy or bar pardon me,
Speaker 5: this mother who had poppies, and would she liked to
Speaker 5: look at the puppies. And that's how the premise the
Speaker 5: ruse that she got her to drive to the car.
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Speaker 5: eight year old Tory Stafford being unsuspicious, unsuspecting young girl
Speaker 5: trying to help a woman find the mother of these
Speaker 5: little puppies that she's going to the car to look at.
Speaker 5: What happens with Michael Rafferty. How does he respond and
Speaker 5: what does he do right away? What does Terry Lynn do?
Speaker 2: What happens soon as they get her in the car, Well,
Speaker 2: since they get her to the car before she realizes
Speaker 2: what's happening, they have her stuff in the backseat under
Speaker 2: a blanket, under his jacket, and I drive her out,
Speaker 2: I think to a field. It's a secluded place, a
Speaker 2: wooded area with an open space and Terry Lynn says
Speaker 2: that she gets out of the car and walks away.
Speaker 2: She recalls Tory asking her if if she will be okay,
Speaker 2: and she tells her to just be brave, and then
Speaker 2: she walks away and leaves her to Michael and stands
Speaker 2: outside the car about three four feet away.
Speaker 5: You talk about Michael Rafferty being very excited and I
Speaker 5: probably couldn't believe his luck that this was actually happening,
Speaker 5: so he's in big hurry. They You write that they
Speaker 5: drive to a drug house to pick up some percocet
Speaker 5: to enhance the experience, and then drive for quite a
Speaker 5: while with this girl must have been horrified. Obviously, she's
Speaker 5: pleading for life, as you write, ight saying, promising that
Speaker 5: she would not tell, even giving a scenario of what
Speaker 5: she would say if they did let her go. Pleading
Speaker 5: for her life and she was told to shut up.
Speaker 5: She was hidden down on the floorboards under the jacket,
Speaker 5: like you say. And then during this hours of rape,
Speaker 5: pedophilic rape, Terry Lynn put on the headphones and as
Speaker 5: you describe in the book, listened to something that they
Speaker 5: did have in common, this kind of death wrap from
Speaker 5: a band called Necro with lyrics about death and satan,
Speaker 5: and so she walked around the peripheral of that field
Speaker 5: while he did the dastardly deed. And then young Tory
Speaker 5: had to urinate, so of course he led her and
Speaker 5: Terry Lynn escorted her to the field to do that.
Speaker 5: She saw the blood. They talked unbelievably about this bravery,
Speaker 5: and to she said that she thought Terry Lynn was brave,
Speaker 5: and she said no, no, no, no, no, you are
Speaker 5: and let that screaming child back into the car with
Speaker 5: Michael Rafferty for round two, while again she preoccupied herself
Speaker 5: while this rape went on. Without giving too much details,
Speaker 5: they had also prepared, you say, part of this plan was,
Speaker 5: so tell us what they do plan after Michael Rafferty's
Speaker 5: finished with Tory.
Speaker 2: Well, of course they had to kill her, but Michael
Speaker 2: was unable to do it, and Terry Lynn was the
Speaker 2: one who had to. She hit her with She covered
Speaker 2: her head with the jacket and hit her I think
Speaker 2: with a tire iron. I'm not I can't remember now,
Speaker 2: but when I spoke to Clollehammer, when I spoke to
Speaker 2: Terry Lynn on the phone about this, she her story
Speaker 2: changed somewhat from what she'd written and then what was
Speaker 2: set in court. So I don't think we'll ever know
Speaker 2: exactly what what happened right there, but she did take
Speaker 2: responsibility for the for the murder, and she did say
Speaker 2: that she's the one that that killed her. And the
Speaker 2: way that she explains it is that she was taking
Speaker 2: her pain away and letting her die was the most
Speaker 2: that's some of the hardest, hardest things I've ever written.
Speaker 2: Was was that therea of that book and said a
Speaker 2: long time to get the words to just be as
Speaker 2: cut and dried as I could get it without putting
Speaker 2: any sort of emotion in it at all. It was right.
Speaker 5: No, it's it's tough reading because he had said, Michael
Speaker 5: Rafferty said that we can't take her back and we
Speaker 5: can't go back, and he said, you're involved with this.
Speaker 5: He wanted her to be involved, and he was very
Speaker 5: very you say ecstatic again, we only have Terry Lynde's
Speaker 5: account of this, but it seemed like he was ecstatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The way she explained that he could he couldn't.
Speaker 2: He was so excited. His voice was was jittery.
Speaker 5: They as you write, they bury her under some rocks nearby.
Speaker 5: I guess find a place that no one can see
Speaker 5: what they're doing in the barrier under a bunch of rocks,
Speaker 5: her tiny body. Then they leave and they make a
Speaker 5: pack de vowed not to talk about this again, and
Speaker 5: how are they able to? Are they able to carry
Speaker 5: on with their lives? What happens afterwards? And then tell
Speaker 5: us the as you right we will allude to in
Speaker 5: the introduction about the community response, what goes on with
Speaker 5: missing Tory.
Speaker 2: They were able to keep it quiet. They just it's
Speaker 2: hideous as it sounds to everyone else. They had planned
Speaker 2: it for so long, Michael had thought of it for
Speaker 2: so long, and while it did bothertary Land, she was
Speaker 2: able to compartmentalize it and just go on with her life.
Speaker 2: The world began to look for little Toy. And the
Speaker 2: crazy part about all of it is a lot of
Speaker 2: the suspicion went to Tory's mother. She had a reputation for
Speaker 2: doing drugs and people began to suspect her as for
Speaker 2: doing something to her own daughter, and she went through
Speaker 2: a lot of hell for that. She was on national television,
Speaker 2: she was hounded by reporters, the police was constantly bothering her.
Speaker 5: But part of this incredible story is that there was
Speaker 5: video footage, and that's what police do, especially in modern times,
Speaker 5: is to look at that available video footage. And what
Speaker 5: they find is a woman with dark hair, bigger than
Speaker 5: Tory's mother Tera and has a big, fluffy white coat.
Speaker 5: And so they started asking people about that, and the
Speaker 5: so start receiving Tara tell us about what happens with
Speaker 5: Tara and a friend that shows Tara this photo and
Speaker 5: these seemed to recognize.
Speaker 2: They see. She shows Tory's mother the footage and she
Speaker 2: immediately recognizes that coat. She knows immediately from buying drugs
Speaker 2: over there. And she did say she did tell the police,
Speaker 2: and they got off to a slow start. No one
Speaker 2: really believed her at first, but then eventually they started
Speaker 2: to investigate Terry Lynn and everything unraveled shortly after that.
Speaker 2: She was really I think Terry Lynn was ready to
Speaker 2: just call it quit. She once once that everything dawned
Speaker 2: on her, what she'd done and the pain that she
Speaker 2: knew that that Tarah, Tory's mother was going through, and
Speaker 2: when she saw what she did to the small commune,
Speaker 2: I think she was ready to be arrested. She was
Speaker 2: ready to tell everything she knew.
Speaker 5: Go back to how this happens because, like you say, Tory,
Speaker 5: pardon me, Terry Lynn is even cooperating and not cooperating
Speaker 5: involved with the handing out the missing posters for Tory, right.
Speaker 5: That's what she has to do. That's the brave face
Speaker 5: she has to keep up. This is a small community.
Speaker 5: And so then little suspicions are conveyed to the police
Speaker 5: by more than one person that this might be Terry Lynn.
Speaker 5: So what is the final thing that police realize that
Speaker 5: she may be involved and then they bring her in
Speaker 5: for questioning and how does that proceed.
Speaker 2: It's the jacket, I mean, once they start recognizing her,
Speaker 2: she is and they bring her in at first, she
Speaker 2: doesn't at first, she doesn't admit to anything. Doesn't take
Speaker 2: long at all, and she tells that Michael what had
Speaker 2: been the one with her and why they did it
Speaker 2: and how they did it. But it's the jacket that
Speaker 2: they noticed that gets her caught.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about the the motivation for her to
Speaker 5: come to actually confess, and in that confession a lot
Speaker 5: of people would most perpetrators would deflect the blame from
Speaker 5: themselves and put it on the other person. What is
Speaker 5: her story and what does she say in terms of
Speaker 5: her involvement in the planning, her involvement in the U
Speaker 5: the kidnapping itself. What does she tell authorities at that
Speaker 5: time when she does decide to confess.
Speaker 2: She takes both of the blame on herself, and she
Speaker 2: continued to do that even as her story changed in
Speaker 2: different ways. But she takes the blame on herself, and
Speaker 2: she says she's the one that killed the little girl.
Speaker 2: And it takes some dragon to where till she actually
Speaker 2: comes forward with what with Michael's part in it? She
Speaker 2: doesn't want to even implicate him much other than saying that,
Speaker 2: you know, he was the one that raped her. But
Speaker 2: she takes her own She takes responsibility for the things
Speaker 2: that she does right off the bat.
Speaker 5: Now, in this for people listening in the US and abroad,
Speaker 5: not all jurisdictions are like Canada in this not total immunity,
Speaker 5: but there is quite a bit of a difference in
Speaker 5: both of these sentences in terms of what the prosecutor
Speaker 5: looks at the person that they seemed to be focused on,
Speaker 5: as Michael Rafferty, and they listen and believe a certain
Speaker 5: amount of Terry Lynne's story and understand her background, and
Speaker 5: then are willing to offer her trial as not much
Speaker 5: of a trial at all, because there's some kind of
Speaker 5: deal contingent on her testifying at Michael Rafferty's trial, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, she she did testify, but she was just steadfast
Speaker 2: trying to impart onto everyone that she was the one
Speaker 2: that did the murder. And I'm not sure why she
Speaker 2: made that so clear so many times, other than maybe
Speaker 2: she thought Michael wouldn't get as much time if she
Speaker 2: confessed to the to all the killing and the kidnapping.
Speaker 2: She I spoke to her about this book. She was
Speaker 2: at first against it and asked me not to, but
Speaker 2: I kept talking to her, and she said the only
Speaker 2: way she would tell me anything was if I made
Speaker 2: sure to say that she did the killing, she was
Speaker 2: the one that took her life.
Speaker 5: Well, you also talk about that, even though it was
Speaker 5: different seasons, she was instrumental in helping the police find
Speaker 5: the body of Tory Stafford. Correct.
Speaker 2: Correct, She took them out there and helped them look,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it had things had changed quite a bit
Speaker 2: since they covered her up, but she found her.
Speaker 5: You talk about she apologized to Tory's family as well
Speaker 5: at the trial and on April thirty, twenty ten. She
Speaker 5: was sentenced to life and with the possibility to parole
Speaker 5: after twenty five years. And that's our most serious sentence
Speaker 5: in Canada. And then it was the Rafferties trial and
Speaker 5: they agreed to change the venue because Woodstock, they thought
Speaker 5: they wouldn't be able to get a fair trial, so
Speaker 5: they held it in London, Ontario and a strict publication ban.
Speaker 5: This was March fifth, it was ready to go twenty twelve.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about the trial and some
Speaker 5: of the behavior at the trial, some of the more
Speaker 5: interesting events at that trial.
Speaker 2: Michael was uncooperative, to say, to put it nicely, He
Speaker 2: had a lot of outbursts and some of the parents
Speaker 2: and the community attended the trial, and there was a
Speaker 2: lot of death threats on his person. There was all
Speaker 2: sorts of threats thrown around by Michael by some of
Speaker 2: the police or to some of the police in the
Speaker 2: case him, and he just continually tried to place the
Speaker 2: blame on someone else for something else. It was always
Speaker 2: someone else's fault, or he could talk Terry Lynn into it,
Speaker 2: because you know, always wanted to deflect some sort of
Speaker 2: way onto somebody else for some reason, and by the
Speaker 2: when I was writing this book, I tried to get
Speaker 2: hold of him or his lawyers or anyone, and I
Speaker 2: could get no one on his side of the family
Speaker 2: or his side of the case to speak to me
Speaker 2: at all. But after the book was written, I got
Speaker 2: some of his childhood friends emailed me and sent me
Speaker 2: postal letters about how I got it all wrong. And
Speaker 2: he didn't say much of anything like that to Terry Lynne,
Speaker 2: and it was all her And so his history of
Speaker 2: lives and population lasted all the way through court and
Speaker 2: into incarceration.
Speaker 5: You say he was guilty in all three counts. The
Speaker 5: jury found him and that was accessory a pardon me.
Speaker 5: That was first degree murder, kidnapping, and I guess that
Speaker 5: would be sexual assault as well. But anyway, life without
Speaker 5: for Ale plus ten years. You say that was May fifteenth,
Speaker 5: two thousand and twelve. Now you talk about PostScript about
Speaker 5: you say you spoke to her, But she has been
Speaker 5: in trouble in prison as well since she's been in there,
Speaker 5: hasn't she.
Speaker 2: She has, she's in she's been in several fights. She's
Speaker 2: been violent with other inmates, to the point where I
Speaker 2: think the term was curb stump she curb stumped her faith,
Speaker 2: and knocked out teeth. She has been quite a pill.
Speaker 5: Do you believe everything that Terry Lynn had to say
Speaker 5: about her own involvement because of what it always struck
Speaker 5: me is the originally when I read in the book
Speaker 5: that at trial they produced these letters from inmates, and
Speaker 5: then she had these very vivid fantasies that involved murder,
Speaker 5: destroying someone, even abducting someone. So when they meet and
Speaker 5: someone talks, this man talks to her, and why I
Speaker 5: think there's credence to what I'm saying is that because
Speaker 5: she says, well, at first I just thought he was joking,
Speaker 5: he was kidding, or I didn't believe him, or you know,
Speaker 5: that doesn't sound so plausible to me that you would
Speaker 5: then believe you have these ideas, you're of your own.
Speaker 5: You probably discussed them, that's what they had in common.
Speaker 5: She says, no, no, And then when he discussed these
Speaker 5: murderous things involving raping and killing a child, she just
Speaker 5: thought he was kidding, didn't believe him up to the right,
Speaker 5: up to a certain point, and then she again justifies,
Speaker 5: as you write in the books, she justifies that, well,
Speaker 5: why would she be the person that would murder this
Speaker 5: young girl if she didn't have murder in her heart. Ever,
Speaker 5: now she admits for the courts because that was part
Speaker 5: of this deal, and she could see the light of
Speaker 5: days some day, couldn't she How self serving is some
Speaker 5: of this information?
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm sure most of it did. And it was
Speaker 2: hard to believe her, hard to choose what could possibly
Speaker 2: be true because she changed her story so many times
Speaker 2: to fit the circumstances, so it was difficult to pick
Speaker 2: out which nuggets could possibly be believed. But I I
Speaker 2: think I don't think. I do think that she she
Speaker 2: didn't believe Michael at first, because I don't think she possibly.
Speaker 2: I don't think she thought that anyone could possibly be
Speaker 2: as sick as she was. And I just think that
Speaker 2: she was, like, really, you know, I didn't I think
Speaker 2: that she thought he would be the one to chick
Speaker 2: it out. I didn't think because she had so much
Speaker 2: bravado and so much violence in her I don't think
Speaker 2: she thought anybody could match it. Now, was she as
Speaker 2: reticent to find a little girl and kidnap her as
Speaker 2: she says she was? Possibly? But I don't think it
Speaker 2: was out of some golden heart. I think it was
Speaker 2: a fear of getting in trouble. She thought. She knew
Speaker 2: she how easy it would be for her to get
Speaker 2: in trouble. She was known in the area, and I
Speaker 2: think she just was hesitant because she didn't really want
Speaker 2: to get in trouble, not because she didn't want to
Speaker 2: commit the murder. And then when it happened, I think
Speaker 2: that it affected her so much more than she thought
Speaker 2: it would, and that's why she went forward with the confession.
Speaker 2: I think. But I don't you know. I'm not in
Speaker 2: her head. I don't know. And after all the talk,
Speaker 2: big talk she did. You know, she was violent, There's
Speaker 2: no way around it. But she was. That was bred
Speaker 2: into her as a little girl. She knew not much
Speaker 2: of anything else but that lifestyle. But I think looking
Speaker 2: seeing that happened to the to Tory, I think it
Speaker 2: may have altered her a little bit.
Speaker 5: You've spoken to other inmates and other serious criminals and
Speaker 5: killers before, So despite despite the other, you know, assaults
Speaker 5: while she was in prison, did you see a discernible
Speaker 5: difference in the person that committed this crime and the
Speaker 5: person that you spoke to in terms of her at
Speaker 5: least realization of what she had done and remorse. Did
Speaker 5: you sense that I did?
Speaker 2: I really did? Her insistent that she didn't. She didn't
Speaker 2: want me to write about her childhood because she was
Speaker 2: afraid to would make people feel sorry for her. She said,
Speaker 2: I don't need anybody's sympathy. I did this. I deserve
Speaker 2: to be where I am. I don't deserve anything less
Speaker 2: than to spend my life in here. And so I
Speaker 2: feel like she does have remorse, because so many, you know, criminals,
Speaker 2: hardcore evil people, don't even have that much remorse. But
Speaker 2: she does, at least I think she realizes that what.
Speaker 5: She's done, you know, it's what we didn't talk about.
Speaker 5: And I just want to let the audience know that
Speaker 5: part of this part of the story that we kind
Speaker 5: of glossed over is that there's some interesting stuff that
Speaker 5: happens where Harry Lynn is actually in jail while this
Speaker 5: manhunt for these two people are well, they're especially looking
Speaker 5: for the woman because they know it's key to everything
Speaker 5: they're looking from the woman for the video footage, Terry
Speaker 5: Lynn has cut her hair. The neighbors notice, some of
Speaker 5: the neighbors call some of the Some of the neighbors
Speaker 5: are actually videotaping because they are so suspicious. You know,
Speaker 5: there's tera Tara has said to the police and then said, listen,
Speaker 5: people quit focusing on me it, you know, go out
Speaker 5: there and look for this my daughter. You know. So
Speaker 5: the poor woman was hounded. Then it was the stepfather
Speaker 5: was a was brought in for questioning with you know,
Speaker 5: with polygraph and she was submitted to a polygraph and
Speaker 5: then very interestingly, she ran out after a couple of
Speaker 5: questions because she thought they were accusatory. So that they
Speaker 5: were very lucky. They were very lucky that Terry Lynn
Speaker 5: was arrested, that they would that other people had come
Speaker 5: forward and said I think she's the person in this videotape.
Speaker 5: And also just the idea that when she was questioned,
Speaker 5: she didn't lawyer up, she came clean, and otherwise no
Speaker 5: one would know the details of this. Certainly, Michael Rafferty
Speaker 5: is not going to be speaking to anybody about what happened.
Speaker 5: Is he likely?
Speaker 2: No, No, he's under the impression he'll get a lighter
Speaker 2: sentence eventually, but that will ever happen. Little toys, Mother
Speaker 2: Tara really made a big turnaround after this. There were
Speaker 2: a lot of people would have fallen apart and went
Speaker 2: deeper into drug addiction. But she changed her whole life
Speaker 2: and became a doula. She's wildly successful and clean, and
Speaker 2: I'm proud of her.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great success story out of when usually
Speaker 5: these stories don't have any bright spots whatsoever.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she helps other people bring their children into the world.
Speaker 2: Right, How beautiful is that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we didn't talk about too how big this story
Speaker 5: was in America. This was featured on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 5: This was a big story. This was a big story
Speaker 5: in Toronto because Woodstock's a small place. This was a
Speaker 5: big story. Her face was out there. People knew this story,
Speaker 5: didn't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reached all across the world. It was in
Speaker 2: the UK, Australia. Everybody heard about it. I told her
Speaker 2: that too. She wasn't aware of that. She wasn't proved.
Speaker 5: One hundred and three days missing. You say in the book, Well, yeah,
Speaker 5: and change that community forever, as you say.
Speaker 2: It did. But you know, it's also putting up a
Speaker 2: little bit from what I hear that some of the
Speaker 2: neighborhoods have been revamped and cleaned up, and the drug
Speaker 2: culture is slowly moving out to further areas. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was interesting how much this drug was involved
Speaker 5: in this story, like you say, with Tara and that commonality.
Speaker 5: That's how small this community was. Where Tara was buying
Speaker 5: drugs from the mcclintics, that is scary, ironic, and that
Speaker 5: everybody really did know everyone and that was a good thing.
Speaker 5: Ye long run, Yeah, a good thing. And we didn't
Speaker 5: talk about too. As you write in a book, the
Speaker 5: testimony from her school teacher that described her that last
Speaker 5: day when she last left on bell Rang at three
Speaker 5: point thirty and first day that.
Speaker 2: She was allowed to go back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and with a butterfly hearing yeah from her mum. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So it's a very touching story, Kelly, really capturing heartbreaking
Speaker 5: details for those that will be interested in that. Just incredible.
Speaker 2: The warn people, yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people there they're not novices,
Speaker 5: so but I guess the warning is is appropriate. I
Speaker 5: want to thank you Kelly for coming on and talking
Speaker 5: about You have some other things that you do. You
Speaker 5: write about prison reform and tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about the woman condemned dot com. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about that. Please.
Speaker 2: That's a blue all that I've had for about fifteen years.
Speaker 2: I interact a lot with the women on death row
Speaker 2: in the United States, and I blog about it. I
Speaker 2: blog about the issues they face and letters say write
Speaker 2: and things they tell me their cases, and then I
Speaker 2: blog about other women accused of murder and major cases
Speaker 2: I have. Periodically, I deal with men on death row.
Speaker 2: I've stuck to Richard Ramirez for a couple of years
Speaker 2: before he died and Manson before he went crazy and
Speaker 2: I couldn't understand his letters anymore. And sometimes I put
Speaker 2: that on the blog and I talk about anti death
Speaker 2: penalty measures and how much better it would be if
Speaker 2: we had a prison system that wasn't for profits.
Speaker 5: Yeah, some interesting issues will be debating for a while.
Speaker 5: I'm sure you also have a website. You do Facebook,
Speaker 5: You have a Facebook page and Twitter tell us about
Speaker 5: people might want to contact your Look about your other work.
Speaker 5: You have another true crime book, Shirley Turner, Doctor Stalker,
Speaker 5: Murderer mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And my most recent is called Voices from Death Row,
Speaker 2: where I speak to several death row inmates and discuss
Speaker 2: their cases with them. And my website is Kellybanasky dot
Speaker 2: com and it tell us about my books and I
Speaker 2: speaking engagement and personal appearances. You can also find me
Speaker 2: on Twitter I'm right like a mother and on Instagram.
Speaker 2: True Crime Kelly.
Speaker 5: Sounds great. I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 5: coming on talking about Taking Forrey. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: You have a great evening. To talk to you again soon.
Speaker 2: Thank good night, good thank good night.