WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:06.719 This week's trip Cast is brought to you by Raise 2 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:10.839 Your Hand Texas, the Commit partnership the Charles Budd Foundation 3 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:18.320 in Texas AFT. Hello and welcome to the Texas Tribune 4 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:22.120 Trip Cast for April fifteenth, twenty twenty five. My name 5 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:24.679 is Matthew Watkins, editor in chief of the Texas Tribune. 6 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.359 Eleanor has unlocked my office door and allowed me back 7 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:31.839 onto the podcast after a few hiatuses. 8 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:34.479 If you won't let me talk about abortion, I don't 9 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.759 know what I'm supposed to do. Yes, welcome back, Thank you. 10 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:39.719 I have a little bit of a cold today, so 11 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:40.439 I have. 12 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:41.960 The allergies, is what I have. 13 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:43.640 So I'm gonna try really hard. 14 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:44.479 Gross episode. 15 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.359 Yes, if you hear any gross sniffle and just assume it's. 16 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:50.399 Elinor yeah, yeah, safe, safe to assume. 17 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:53.079 How was it without me? 18 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:55.880 You know we were missing a little something. You know. 19 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.079 I have some notes on your April Fool's joke that 20 00:00:59.119 --> 00:00:59.960 you played on Jasper. 21 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.880 It was not a success. 22 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:01.840 This is not good. 23 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:03.840 It is not a good joke. It did not land. 24 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:09.079 It was not well received. I like to I enjoy 25 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:12.879 hearing from listeners of the trip Cast. I don't enjoy 26 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:15.799 it when They mostly are like, why did you do 27 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.400 so poorly at an April Fools Jroke? What are your names? 28 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:20.000 So you actually got a listener feedback. 29 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:22.120 I got listener feedback that was lamb. 30 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:24.920 Okay, Well, well, largely we'll try to do We have 31 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:26.799 a whole year to prepare for next time, so I 32 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:29.640 look forward to see what we can pull off there. Yeah, yeah, 33 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:32.280 all right, So today we are going to talk about 34 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:35.120 Texas teachers, how they're doing, how they're being trained, and 35 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.239 what could change for them this legislative session. It's been 36 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:41.120 a pretty tough few years for teachers. You know, you 37 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:44.640 had COVID and twenty twenty greatly disrupting their classrooms and 38 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.439 loading them up with new challenges. The political climate in 39 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.079 schools has of course intensified in recent years, and you know, 40 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.000 the last legislative session, a teacher pay raise bill failed 41 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.079 after it got cut up in negotiations over school vouchers. 42 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.480 During that time, we've seen a six significant shift in 43 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:05.000 the workforce. The Charles Butt Foundation's twenty twenty four teacher 44 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.159 poll found that more than three quarters of teachers considered 45 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:11.560 leaving the profession in twenty twenty four. That's a twenty 46 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.639 percentage point increase from twenty twenty and of the new 47 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.639 teachers who have come in, more than half fifty two 48 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:22.560 percent were uncertified. And that's a big topic that we're 49 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.400 going to talk about today. We have the perfect guests 50 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.039 to discuss this. His name is Ryan Franklin. He's managing 51 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:33.080 director of Philanthropy Advocates. He's a former Associate Commissioner for 52 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.919 Education Leadership and Quality at the TEA. He was a 53 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.560 policy advisor to two prior education commissioners and worked on 54 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.400 the staff of former Republican State Senator Florence Shapiro, who 55 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:45.960 was a legendary leader in public education in the state. 56 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.759 And before all that, he was a classroom teacher. So 57 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:52.479 welcome Ryan, thank you for joining. 58 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.439 Us, Thanks so much for having me this super important topic, 59 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:55.039 and glad. 60 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:58.080 To be with y'all. Yeah, excited to talk about it. 61 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:01.080 It's coming on a week where you know, we expect 62 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:03.039 a vote in the House on the vouch your bill. 63 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.240 But I think you could arguably make the case that 64 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.360 this is just as important, if not more important to 65 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.919 kind of the future of education in Texas, this turnover issue, 66 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.479 the certification issue, and everything like that. So I want 67 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:20.520 to start with that turnover, the unhappiness that was reflected 68 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.919 in that poll that I mentioned, a poll that, by 69 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:25.680 the way, I saw that number on a PowerPoint presentation 70 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.039 that you gave a few months ago, which which maybe 71 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:29.919 want you to come in here. What do you think 72 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.719 is driving this is what has changed for teachers that 73 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:36.360 is creating this situation in the state. 74 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:39.919 Yeah, the teaching job has always been a demanding job 75 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:43.479 with lots of competing priorities and pulling lots of different directions. 76 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.159 I think coming out of the pandemic in particular, just 77 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.479 the strain on the classrooms, students being out of the 78 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.960 classroom for so long and then coming back and trying 79 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:57.439 to get back in the flow of school. So we've 80 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.919 heard a lot about classroom management challenges have really ramped up. 81 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.240 We are in this tense political moment and it feels 82 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:08.240 like education is frequently at the center of politicized debates. 83 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:12.039 The demands are more, the pay has not kept up 84 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:17.480 with inflation. They are surrounded increasingly by underprepared colleagues that 85 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.319 they're having to kind of pull the weight for. And 86 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.800 so it's just really created a pressure cooker for teachers. 87 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:27.759 Right, and what that has created then as a situation 88 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.639 where as I mentioned before, schools have been sort of 89 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.079 desperate to fill teacher vacancies, right, and that's one of 90 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:37.920 the things leading to the push of uncertified teachers. Before 91 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.920 we talk about kind of what has allowed that to happen, 92 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.959 tell us a little bit about just like what folks 93 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.040 call sort of the traditional route to becoming a teacher, Like, 94 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.079 what is what happens? What is the kind of traditional 95 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.279 way of preparing teachers for that classroom. 96 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:55.240 Yeah, the traditional way, the way that most of us 97 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.519 think about how teachers were prepared, and most of us 98 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:01.319 had teachers prepared this way was completing undergraduate degree at 99 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:04.319 a university and then the last semester of your senior 100 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.519 year you go in and complete a student teaching assignment, 101 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.040 so you're in the classroom getting hands on practice with kids. 102 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.920 Before you're turned loose. You have to complete certification exams, 103 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.120 you complete years of training hands on experience while while 104 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:20.879 in college. That has been the rarity for going on 105 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.560 twenty years now, that has not been the predominant way 106 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.600 we've prepared teachers for twenty or so years, that's been 107 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.600 a declining portion of the population with the rise of 108 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.720 alternative certification programs and now more recently with completely uncertified teachers. 109 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:38.439 Okay, so now give me the alternative certified process. Yeah. 110 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.000 The alternative certified is somebody who already has a degree, 111 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.519 maybe their career changer. They're working in another field, and 112 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.680 decide they want to change careers and come into education, 113 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:51.240 and they really may or may not do some coursework 114 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.199 in training, but for the most part, they are given 115 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:56.079 the keys to a classroom and they are training on 116 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.600 the job, but they are the teacher of record. They've 117 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.439 got the full response disabilities of a teacher, and they're 118 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.399 kind of dropped in and learning it on the fly. 119 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.240 So I assume you went through the traditional I did. Okay, yes, 120 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.319 and so then but then if I was like I'm 121 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.560 done with journalism, I want to go somehow make even 122 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.160 less money. I'm going to go be a public school teacher. 123 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.680 And it's a district that needs, you know, teachers, What 124 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:24.399 would I have to do to I'm putting aside the 125 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.160 uncertified piece of this way, But like that, what's the alternative? 126 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:28.920 I would go do some degree of course work. 127 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:32.399 Yeah, you would, You would enroll, you might or might 128 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:36.600 not take an entrance exam, pretty basic admission requirements. Prove 129 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:38.519 up that you've got a degree, and you enter that 130 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.160 program and they match you or you match yourself with 131 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.160 a job, and they are training you while you're in 132 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:46.839 that program. So you may or may not have any 133 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.839 coursework or training before you enter the classroom the first 134 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:52.120 day of school. Here are the keys, here the grade book. 135 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:54.360 Good luck. I would just like deposits head and like 136 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:55.720 the way you looked at me when you said that 137 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:57.319 about making less money. 138 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.279 If I decided to leave journalism. Remember it's always a possibility. 139 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:03.920 Uh No, I could not be a teacher. 140 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:04.079 This. 141 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.759 My sister is a teacher. And when I think about 142 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:10.639 how I spend my days versus how she spends her days, 143 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.399 it's it's a it's such a difficult, such an important job. 144 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:16.199 I think, you know, like many teachers, she finds it 145 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:18.720 very fulfilling, but it's really intense. 146 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:20.600 I've done a lot of job since I left the classroom, 147 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:25.399 but there's nothing more mentally, physically, emotionally draining every single day. 148 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.800 The challenges. This is like such a minor thing. And 149 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.040 I understand this is not like the main barrier teachers 150 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.279 are facing. But I'm like, she can't just like go 151 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:34.279 to the bathroom when she wants. And I'm like, we 152 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.720 should be talking about that far more often we talked 153 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:37.319 about teachers. 154 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.360 Yeah, they're isolated, they're in the classroom, they you know, 155 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.680 just it's a very can be a very isolating, lonely profession. 156 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.639 And then the uncertified. Let's say, so he's traditional, I'm alternative. 157 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.519 You can be uncertified in this example. 158 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:53.600 Yeah, so how does an uncertified teacher end up in 159 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:54.639 the classroom these days? 160 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.480 A district you pass a criminal background check and you 161 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:00.879 have a pulse in a district is willing to hire you. 162 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.240 That's it, all right, I have two for two. I 163 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.079 can do it. Yeah, they too. Well, tell me then, 164 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.279 what we should think about this, I mean, what is 165 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.360 is there a preference between those three paths in your mind? 166 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:18.120 Is there something that is better for the students and 167 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.279 for the state to have a teacher that fits into 168 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:21.959 you know, category A, B or C. 169 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.079 Yeah. I think there was a time when we didn't 170 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.040 necessarily have the data to know for sure. I think 171 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.800 we had hunches that hey, if you practice something, you're 172 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.639 going to be better at it, but we didn't have 173 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:34.600 the data over the last I would say five to 174 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:38.399 seven years, we've gotten clear data that preparation matters, and 175 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.600 teachers that are prepared in a traditional university based program, 176 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.759 they get months worth of extra learning than an alternatively 177 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.320 certified teacher, and they get even more than an uncertified teacher. 178 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.639 So in terms of student learning, there's no question that 179 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.600 the practice makes a difference. So it's not just the certification. 180 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.639 It's really about there and having the hands on practice 181 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.840 to do the job, and so it makes a real 182 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:08.000 different in student learning. It also makes a real difference 183 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.519 in how long those teachers stay in the classroom. As 184 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.559 we've seen with uncertified teachers, it becomes a revolving door. 185 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.480 And so districts that have relied increasingly on this population 186 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.679 are then having to fill that vacancy almost every year 187 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.000 because they have extremely high turnover rates, which not surprising. 188 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.000 If it's a hard job, you're not prepared for it, 189 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:30.440 they're just feeding you to the wolves. 190 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.240 I'm reading from your PowerPoint presentation here and it says 191 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.759 here students with good teachers are more likely to attend 192 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.919 college and earn higher salaries. Replacing a teacher in the 193 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.200 bottom five percent with an average teacher would increase the 194 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:48.559 present value of students' lifetime income by approximately two hundred 195 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.480 and fifty thousand dollars per classroom. 196 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:56.399 Yeah, it's substantial, and that's old research. It's old national research. Recently, 197 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.720 Jacob Kirksey at Texas Tech has done a Texas look 198 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.240 at this and had similar findings. The outcomes. It's not 199 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:05.320 just a right now, are you learning math? Are you 200 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.879 learning to read? It's a long term life outcome from 201 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:10.159 having a well prepared teacher. 202 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.159 But I imagine, like the other part is like watch it. 203 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:16.759 I guess I'll ask this is like if you can't, 204 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.320 if you don't have those well trained, certified teachers, is 205 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:24.600 having any teacher better than no teacher? 206 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:27.320 I think that's actually a question we should be talking 207 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.240 about more, and nobody's talking about that. But I actually 208 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.039 think it's a really good question because I think we 209 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:36.639 could be staffing our schools in our classrooms differently with 210 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.360 how we're assigning the teachers, and so if you've got 211 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:42.240 you could have a bigger classroom with a really good 212 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.080 teacher paired with an underprepared teacher, uncertified teacher maybe to 213 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:49.360 manage it. So I think there's some innovation out there 214 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:52.120 and there's some examples of this starting. 215 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:52.440 To pop up. 216 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.639 So I think on the baseline, most people say, no, 217 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:57.519 of course not we need to put a person in 218 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:00.919 the classroom to supervise the classroom. But I actually think 219 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:03.000 it's a really good question and one we should be 220 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:05.440 asking more interesting. 221 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:07.799 How much of this is a Texas problem and how 222 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.600 much of this is happening everywhere across the country. 223 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.679 Yeah, so I think coming out of the pandemic, everyone 224 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:20.279 was facing challenges. I think what's DIFFERENTECH in Texas is 225 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.000 just we had the statutory framework that allowed it to 226 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.919 really be the wild wild West. So other places reduced 227 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.919 their certification requirements are sort of backed off things. Texas 228 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.279 just already had the law in place that said, you know, 229 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.879 if you're in a district of innovation, which most districts are, 230 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.360 they can hire you without any preparation or certification. 231 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:46.159 And tell us a little bit about that district of 232 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:47.159 innovation process. 233 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:52.559 Yeah, so if you are meeting very baseline academic threshold, 234 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.279 you can opt out as a district of certain statutory provisions. 235 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.399 And two of the most common things that they've opted 236 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:05.159 out of is requiring certification and requiring parental notification for 237 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.399 uncertified teachers, because that's the other thing that's happened is 238 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.120 this statute, in the absence of District of Innovation would 239 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.840 presume that, hey, parents are being notified if you're if 240 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.320 your kid doesn't have a certified teacher, that's also being waived. 241 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.879 And so parents are kind of being you know, left 242 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:26.039 uninformed and wondering, what's going on in my classroom? Why 243 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.440 is this now? I happen to know ten layers deep 244 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:30.519 on tea website where to go look to see if 245 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.279 my kids teacher a certified. But I am not normal. 246 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.399 And what you're sort of describing here is that the 247 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.120 teacher the District of Innovation allows you to kind of 248 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:45.200 go around that certification requirement. And so what we're seeing 249 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:50.840 here is actually not necessarily half of all students, I mean, 250 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.480 half of all teachers are being hired kind of evenly 251 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.039 across the state is uncertified. What we were actually seeing 252 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:00.919 is a lot of districts hiring very large numbers uncertified 253 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.000 and others doing smaller I mean, once I that you 254 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.159 mentioned seventy five percent of rural teachers actually are being 255 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.200 hired as uncertified. 256 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.480 Yeah, it's really I was a rural teacher, and the 257 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.759 challenges are just different on finding people to work in 258 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.440 rural schools, and it's so much more impact there in 259 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.720 rural districts. And I think the other thing about this 260 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.320 is by allowing the uncertified, unprepared individual in the classroom, 261 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.080 it's removed the incentive from anyone to go get certified. 262 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.519 So we've really seen our numbers drop off across the 263 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.960 board of people pursuing any preparation route. 264 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.840 Why was this sort of workaround created in the first place? 265 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:39.879 What was the goal? 266 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.519 So I can't really speak to what the intent there was. 267 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.399 I think it was really built around creating more flexibility 268 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.360 for traditional districts and giving them some of the flexibilities 269 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.240 that charter schools had at the time, because charters have 270 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.039 long been able to be sort of exempt from the 271 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.480 preparation requirements. But in charters, parents go in knowing that 272 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.559 the schools are prepared and set up to provide that 273 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.080 structured curriculum and support there. So it's a little bit 274 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.399 different environment from a charter and traditional district. 275 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.720 So are there states, I mean you talk about the 276 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.559 statutory framework in Texas. Are there states where like you 277 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.720 are required to have you cannot have uncertified teachers. 278 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.240 I think that's way more common than what we're dealing with. 279 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.039 We've seen some states shortcut their certification or do temporary 280 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.720 things to kind of get through the COVID crunch, But 281 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.000 I am not aware of a site that is as 282 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.799 lacks on the preparation and certification requirements as Texas. 283 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.279 Interesting. All right, let's pause for a moment here from 284 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:40.240 our sponsors, and then we'll talk about what might be 285 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.919 done about this. Raise your hand, Texas. When we invest 286 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.720 in our teachers, we invest in the future workforce of Texas. 287 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:51.120 We believe teachers make the difference. Commit Partnership. Visit commit 288 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:55.320 data dot org slash teachers to learn more about the 289 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:59.279 teacher experience, turnovers, salaries, and more for your Texas county 290 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:04.000 or school district. The Charles Butt Foundation enhancing education for 291 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.519 all Texas children by ensuring every classroom has a high 292 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:13.440 performing teacher, especially where needed. Most Texas AFT Texas public schools, colleges, 293 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.159 and universities can thrive if we work together. Join Texas 294 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:21.840 AFT in the fight at TEXASAFT dot org. Slash Together 295 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:28.039 dash we dash thrive. Okay, So here's my question for you. 296 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.320 What does the legislature think about this. What are is? 297 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:37.240 Do lawmakers consider this a problem or a solution? 298 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:40.879 Yeah, So I think we've sort of been on this 299 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.080 arc of how they've talked about this has changed. So 300 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:44.960 in the midst of the pandemic, we were talking about 301 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.440 teacher vacancies, and so we had the governor really step 302 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.240 out there in twenty twenty two and create this teacher 303 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.440 Vacancy task Force. They people from all around the state 304 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.879 came together really focused on the vacancy issue. Twenty twenty three, 305 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.879 legislature comes to town. They consider the teacher pay raise 306 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:06.519 bill you mentioned, They consider really comprehensive supports, preparation incentives 307 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.159 for candidates. Those things get to the five yard line 308 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.759 and they don't get across. But bipartisan leadership on both 309 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.720 sides and so interest in doing something about this problem. 310 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.039 The narrative then sort of shifts to being about this 311 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:26.039 uncertified teacher issue. And I think at first glance, people 312 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.480 are like, well, it makes sense to give districts some flexibility. 313 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.480 But as we've studied this issue and as we've seen 314 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.720 the data come out, folks have really become clear our 315 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.759 student achievement is sort of plateauing in the state, maybe 316 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:40.679 losing ground a little bit, and I think folks see 317 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:45.200 the connection between, Hey, if we're putting a substantial portion 318 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:49.080 of our teachers having no preparation and no teaching experience 319 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.039 in the classroom, it's going to have an impact on 320 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.159 student learning. So I would say we've got a broad 321 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.919 base of understanding from policymakers and an interest in doing 322 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.879 something about it. Chairman Buckley in House Book Education, they 323 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.679 had an interim charge. They had hearings on this, so 324 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.359 they've studied that the Senate had worked on at the 325 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.880 prior session and prior interim. So there is a kind 326 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.519 of broad based awareness that this is a challenge in 327 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:15.960 general consensus that we need to do something to close 328 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.960 the loophole and build the supply of well prepared teachers. 329 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.359 And it feels like there's there's sort of two options here. 330 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.920 There's the carrot, you know, try to incentivize more people 331 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.240 to become teachers, and the stick, which is, you know, 332 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:33.079 sort of requiring schools to hire certified teachers and things 333 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.920 like that. It seems like maybe both options are being 334 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.799 sort of considered in the legislature right now and might 335 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.400 have a pretty good chance of getting through. But let's 336 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.720 talk about the carrot at first, right. So the Senate 337 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.680 has passed a teacher pay raise bill this legislative session. 338 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.240 It is something, as I mentioned at the start of 339 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.920 the show, that was blocked last legislative session. There was 340 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.480 commitment to do it, there was funding in the budget, 341 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.519 but it got sort of tied up with other kind 342 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.519 of funding increases and was blocked by the governor essentially 343 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:09.119 saying if you don't pass school voucher's school choice, then 344 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.880 you can't have these other extra funds as well. We're 345 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:15.400 back this session. As I mentioned earlier, they're going to 346 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.480 vote tomorrow Wednesday on the school voucher bill. I think 347 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.799 most people believe this time around is going to get through, 348 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.279 and so maybe a teacher raise will get through. I'm 349 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.519 going to read to you quickly the money that's at 350 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.279 stake here. Districts in smaller schools, mostly rural schools, would 351 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.599 receive bigger raises. Those with three to four experience would 352 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.480 receive a three to four years of experience would receive 353 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.000 a five thousand dollars raise. Five or more experience would 354 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:47.160 receive a ten thousand dollars raise. That would be about 355 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.920 half as much for the bigger districts, twenty five hundred 356 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.519 for the less experienced, five thousand for the more experience. 357 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.519 How much do you think that changes the equation in 358 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.240 terms of teacher recruitment challenges that already exist. 359 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.119 Well, I think it helps both with the recruitment but 360 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.920 even more importantly with retention. So I think we've got 361 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.480 to do something to try to catch our teachers who 362 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.200 are in the classroom doing the work. We've got to 363 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.400 stop the bleeding a little bit on attrition there, and 364 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:18.759 so I think some sort of teacher pay raise makes 365 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:21.200 a lot of sense. Governor Abbott named that as one 366 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.359 of his emergency items, and so I think, you know, 367 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.759 there's a lot of momentum behind that. The structure of 368 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.599 it looks a little different between what the house is 369 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.440 thinking and what the sentence thinking, but there's definitely momentum there. 370 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.720 So I think that's both to make it more viable 371 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:37.920 for people to consider coming into the classroom, but even 372 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.160 more important to help stem the attrition and keep people 373 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:43.359 people in the classroom. 374 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:48.079 The average national salary for teachers seventy one, six hundred 375 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.039 and ninety nine dollars. In Texas, that number is sixty 376 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.119 two four hundred and seventy for so we are considerably 377 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.920 under the national average for teachers. 378 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.559 Yeah, because I imagine you can't just say, right, like, 379 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.440 no more uncertified teachers, right, like you have to fix 380 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.759 the structural problems that brought us here, right, right, sort of? 381 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.079 I presume your model for this, yes, right, I mean 382 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.480 what around this needs to be fixed to make this 383 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:17.880 not like, uh, you know, I cover healthcare, and so 384 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.319 I think about like the corollary of like rural healthcare 385 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:24.319 where it's like, obviously we don't have uncertified doctors, but 386 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.559 like the result is that rural hospitals close. 387 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:26.880 Right. 388 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.720 I mean you can't just say, like snap your fingers, 389 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.279 we need more providers, or we need more teachers in 390 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:32.759 this case. 391 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.359 Yeah, So that's why we have to build the supply. 392 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:35.960 We've got to. 393 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:39.720 If you close the loophole, you phase that out, then 394 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.880 you instantly from day one, create an incentive for people 395 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.480 to go back into preparation. Something like seventy percent of 396 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:49.960 the uncertified teachers now have been an educator preparation program. 397 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.519 They just left when they said, look what what am 398 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.079 I paying you for? I can do the job and 399 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.759 get this without so day one, those people can go 400 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.039 back and they can get a temper a certification to 401 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.039