1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,719 Speaker 1: This week's trip Cast is brought to you by Raise 2 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:10,839 Your Hand Texas, the Commit partnership the Charles Budd Foundation 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:18,320 in Texas AFT. Hello and welcome to the Texas Tribune 4 00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:22,120 Trip Cast for April fifteenth, twenty twenty five. My name 5 00:00:22,199 --> 00:00:24,679 is Matthew Watkins, editor in chief of the Texas Tribune. 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,359 Eleanor has unlocked my office door and allowed me back 7 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:31,839 onto the podcast after a few hiatuses. 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: If you won't let me talk about abortion, I don't 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,759 know what I'm supposed to do. Yes, welcome back, Thank you. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,719 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of a cold today, so 11 00:00:40,119 --> 00:00:40,439 I have. 12 00:00:40,439 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: The allergies, is what I have. 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna try really hard. 14 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: Gross episode. 15 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:48,359 Speaker 1: Yes, if you hear any gross sniffle and just assume it's. 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,399 Speaker 2: Elinor yeah, yeah, safe, safe to assume. 17 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:53,079 Speaker 1: How was it without me? 18 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: You know we were missing a little something. You know. 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,079 Speaker 1: I have some notes on your April Fool's joke that 20 00:00:59,119 --> 00:00:59,960 you played on Jasper. 21 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: It was not a success. 22 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: This is not good. 23 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: It is not a good joke. It did not land. 24 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:09,079 It was not well received. I like to I enjoy 25 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,879 hearing from listeners of the trip Cast. I don't enjoy 26 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,799 it when They mostly are like, why did you do 27 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,400 so poorly at an April Fools Jroke? What are your names? 28 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: So you actually got a listener feedback. 29 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: I got listener feedback that was lamb. 30 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, well, largely we'll try to do We have 31 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,799 a whole year to prepare for next time, so I 32 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,640 look forward to see what we can pull off there. Yeah, yeah, 33 00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:32,280 all right, So today we are going to talk about 34 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,120 Texas teachers, how they're doing, how they're being trained, and 35 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,239 what could change for them this legislative session. It's been 36 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:41,120 a pretty tough few years for teachers. You know, you 37 00:01:41,159 --> 00:01:44,640 had COVID and twenty twenty greatly disrupting their classrooms and 38 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,439 loading them up with new challenges. The political climate in 39 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,079 schools has of course intensified in recent years, and you know, 40 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,000 the last legislative session, a teacher pay raise bill failed 41 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,079 after it got cut up in negotiations over school vouchers. 42 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,480 During that time, we've seen a six significant shift in 43 00:02:01,519 --> 00:02:05,000 the workforce. The Charles Butt Foundation's twenty twenty four teacher 44 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,159 poll found that more than three quarters of teachers considered 45 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,560 leaving the profession in twenty twenty four. That's a twenty 46 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:15,639 percentage point increase from twenty twenty and of the new 47 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,639 teachers who have come in, more than half fifty two 48 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:22,560 percent were uncertified. And that's a big topic that we're 49 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,400 going to talk about today. We have the perfect guests 50 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,039 to discuss this. His name is Ryan Franklin. He's managing 51 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,080 director of Philanthropy Advocates. He's a former Associate Commissioner for 52 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,919 Education Leadership and Quality at the TEA. He was a 53 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,560 policy advisor to two prior education commissioners and worked on 54 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:43,400 the staff of former Republican State Senator Florence Shapiro, who 55 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,960 was a legendary leader in public education in the state. 56 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,759 And before all that, he was a classroom teacher. So 57 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:52,479 welcome Ryan, thank you for joining. 58 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:54,439 Speaker 3: Us, Thanks so much for having me this super important topic, 59 00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:55,039 and glad. 60 00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: To be with y'all. Yeah, excited to talk about it. 61 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,080 It's coming on a week where you know, we expect 62 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,039 a vote in the House on the vouch your bill. 63 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,240 But I think you could arguably make the case that 64 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:09,360 this is just as important, if not more important to 65 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:12,919 kind of the future of education in Texas, this turnover issue, 66 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,479 the certification issue, and everything like that. So I want 67 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,520 to start with that turnover, the unhappiness that was reflected 68 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,919 in that poll that I mentioned, a poll that, by 69 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,680 the way, I saw that number on a PowerPoint presentation 70 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,039 that you gave a few months ago, which which maybe 71 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,919 want you to come in here. What do you think 72 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,719 is driving this is what has changed for teachers that 73 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,360 is creating this situation in the state. 74 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, the teaching job has always been a demanding job 75 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,479 with lots of competing priorities and pulling lots of different directions. 76 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:47,159 I think coming out of the pandemic in particular, just 77 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,479 the strain on the classrooms, students being out of the 78 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:54,960 classroom for so long and then coming back and trying 79 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,439 to get back in the flow of school. So we've 80 00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:00,919 heard a lot about classroom management challenges have really ramped up. 81 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,240 We are in this tense political moment and it feels 82 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,240 like education is frequently at the center of politicized debates. 83 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:12,039 The demands are more, the pay has not kept up 84 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,480 with inflation. They are surrounded increasingly by underprepared colleagues that 85 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,319 they're having to kind of pull the weight for. And 86 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,800 so it's just really created a pressure cooker for teachers. 87 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,759 Speaker 1: Right, and what that has created then as a situation 88 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,639 where as I mentioned before, schools have been sort of 89 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:35,079 desperate to fill teacher vacancies, right, and that's one of 90 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:37,920 the things leading to the push of uncertified teachers. Before 91 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:39,920 we talk about kind of what has allowed that to happen, 92 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,959 tell us a little bit about just like what folks 93 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,040 call sort of the traditional route to becoming a teacher, Like, 94 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:51,079 what is what happens? What is the kind of traditional 95 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,279 way of preparing teachers for that classroom. 96 00:04:53,399 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, the traditional way, the way that most of us 97 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,519 think about how teachers were prepared, and most of us 98 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,319 had teachers prepared this way was completing undergraduate degree at 99 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:04,319 a university and then the last semester of your senior 100 00:05:04,399 --> 00:05:07,519 year you go in and complete a student teaching assignment, 101 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,040 so you're in the classroom getting hands on practice with kids. 102 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,920 Before you're turned loose. You have to complete certification exams, 103 00:05:13,959 --> 00:05:17,120 you complete years of training hands on experience while while 104 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,879 in college. That has been the rarity for going on 105 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,560 twenty years now, that has not been the predominant way 106 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:26,600 we've prepared teachers for twenty or so years, that's been 107 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:29,600 a declining portion of the population with the rise of 108 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,720 alternative certification programs and now more recently with completely uncertified teachers. 109 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:38,439 Speaker 1: Okay, so now give me the alternative certified process. Yeah. 110 00:05:38,439 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 3: The alternative certified is somebody who already has a degree, 111 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,519 maybe their career changer. They're working in another field, and 112 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,680 decide they want to change careers and come into education, 113 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:51,240 and they really may or may not do some coursework 114 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,199 in training, but for the most part, they are given 115 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,079 the keys to a classroom and they are training on 116 00:05:56,199 --> 00:05:58,600 the job, but they are the teacher of record. They've 117 00:05:58,639 --> 00:06:01,439 got the full response disabilities of a teacher, and they're 118 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:03,399 kind of dropped in and learning it on the fly. 119 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: So I assume you went through the traditional I did. Okay, yes, 120 00:06:07,439 --> 00:06:10,319 and so then but then if I was like I'm 121 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,560 done with journalism, I want to go somehow make even 122 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:17,160 less money. I'm going to go be a public school teacher. 123 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:21,680 And it's a district that needs, you know, teachers, What 124 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,399 would I have to do to I'm putting aside the 125 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,160 uncertified piece of this way, But like that, what's the alternative? 126 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:28,920 I would go do some degree of course work. 127 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, you would, You would enroll, you might or might 128 00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:36,600 not take an entrance exam, pretty basic admission requirements. Prove 129 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,519 up that you've got a degree, and you enter that 130 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:41,160 program and they match you or you match yourself with 131 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,160 a job, and they are training you while you're in 132 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:46,839 that program. So you may or may not have any 133 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,839 coursework or training before you enter the classroom the first 134 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:52,120 day of school. Here are the keys, here the grade book. 135 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: Good luck. I would just like deposits head and like 136 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,720 the way you looked at me when you said that 137 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,319 about making less money. 138 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: If I decided to leave journalism. Remember it's always a possibility. 139 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:03,920 Uh No, I could not be a teacher. 140 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:04,079 Speaker 1: This. 141 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:07,759 Speaker 2: My sister is a teacher. And when I think about 142 00:07:07,759 --> 00:07:10,639 how I spend my days versus how she spends her days, 143 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:14,399 it's it's a it's such a difficult, such an important job. 144 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:16,199 I think, you know, like many teachers, she finds it 145 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:18,720 very fulfilling, but it's really intense. 146 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: I've done a lot of job since I left the classroom, 147 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:25,399 but there's nothing more mentally, physically, emotionally draining every single day. 148 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: The challenges. This is like such a minor thing. And 149 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,040 I understand this is not like the main barrier teachers 150 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,279 are facing. But I'm like, she can't just like go 151 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,279 to the bathroom when she wants. And I'm like, we 152 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:36,720 should be talking about that far more often we talked 153 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,319 about teachers. 154 00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're isolated, they're in the classroom, they you know, 155 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,680 just it's a very can be a very isolating, lonely profession. 156 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:48,639 Speaker 2: And then the uncertified. Let's say, so he's traditional, I'm alternative. 157 00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:50,519 You can be uncertified in this example. 158 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so how does an uncertified teacher end up in 159 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:54,639 the classroom these days? 160 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: A district you pass a criminal background check and you 161 00:07:58,519 --> 00:08:00,879 have a pulse in a district is willing to hire you. 162 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: That's it, all right, I have two for two. I 163 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:07,079 can do it. Yeah, they too. Well, tell me then, 164 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,279 what we should think about this, I mean, what is 165 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:15,360 is there a preference between those three paths in your mind? 166 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,120 Is there something that is better for the students and 167 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,279 for the state to have a teacher that fits into 168 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:21,959 you know, category A, B or C. 169 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,079 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there was a time when we didn't 170 00:08:25,079 --> 00:08:27,040 necessarily have the data to know for sure. I think 171 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:29,800 we had hunches that hey, if you practice something, you're 172 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:32,639 going to be better at it, but we didn't have 173 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,600 the data over the last I would say five to 174 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:38,399 seven years, we've gotten clear data that preparation matters, and 175 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,600 teachers that are prepared in a traditional university based program, 176 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,759 they get months worth of extra learning than an alternatively 177 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:51,320 certified teacher, and they get even more than an uncertified teacher. 178 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,639 So in terms of student learning, there's no question that 179 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,600 the practice makes a difference. So it's not just the certification. 180 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:02,639 It's really about there and having the hands on practice 181 00:09:02,759 --> 00:09:05,840 to do the job, and so it makes a real 182 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:08,000 different in student learning. It also makes a real difference 183 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:11,519 in how long those teachers stay in the classroom. As 184 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,559 we've seen with uncertified teachers, it becomes a revolving door. 185 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:20,480 And so districts that have relied increasingly on this population 186 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,679 are then having to fill that vacancy almost every year 187 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,000 because they have extremely high turnover rates, which not surprising. 188 00:09:27,039 --> 00:09:29,000 If it's a hard job, you're not prepared for it, 189 00:09:29,039 --> 00:09:30,440 they're just feeding you to the wolves. 190 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: I'm reading from your PowerPoint presentation here and it says 191 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:37,759 here students with good teachers are more likely to attend 192 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:40,919 college and earn higher salaries. Replacing a teacher in the 193 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:44,200 bottom five percent with an average teacher would increase the 194 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,559 present value of students' lifetime income by approximately two hundred 195 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,480 and fifty thousand dollars per classroom. 196 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's substantial, and that's old research. It's old national research. Recently, 197 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,720 Jacob Kirksey at Texas Tech has done a Texas look 198 00:09:59,759 --> 00:10:03,240 at this and had similar findings. The outcomes. It's not 199 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:05,320 just a right now, are you learning math? Are you 200 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,879 learning to read? It's a long term life outcome from 201 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,159 having a well prepared teacher. 202 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,159 Speaker 2: But I imagine, like the other part is like watch it. 203 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,759 I guess I'll ask this is like if you can't, 204 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:20,320 if you don't have those well trained, certified teachers, is 205 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,600 having any teacher better than no teacher? 206 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: I think that's actually a question we should be talking 207 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,240 about more, and nobody's talking about that. But I actually 208 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,039 think it's a really good question because I think we 209 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:36,639 could be staffing our schools in our classrooms differently with 210 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,360 how we're assigning the teachers, and so if you've got 211 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:42,240 you could have a bigger classroom with a really good 212 00:10:42,279 --> 00:10:46,080 teacher paired with an underprepared teacher, uncertified teacher maybe to 213 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:49,360 manage it. So I think there's some innovation out there 214 00:10:49,399 --> 00:10:52,120 and there's some examples of this starting. 215 00:10:51,759 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: To pop up. 216 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,639 Speaker 3: So I think on the baseline, most people say, no, 217 00:10:55,759 --> 00:10:57,519 of course not we need to put a person in 218 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,919 the classroom to supervise the classroom. But I actually think 219 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,000 it's a really good question and one we should be 220 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:05,440 asking more interesting. 221 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,799 Speaker 1: How much of this is a Texas problem and how 222 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,600 much of this is happening everywhere across the country. 223 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think coming out of the pandemic, everyone 224 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:20,279 was facing challenges. I think what's DIFFERENTECH in Texas is 225 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:25,000 just we had the statutory framework that allowed it to 226 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,919 really be the wild wild West. So other places reduced 227 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:32,919 their certification requirements are sort of backed off things. Texas 228 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,279 just already had the law in place that said, you know, 229 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:38,879 if you're in a district of innovation, which most districts are, 230 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,360 they can hire you without any preparation or certification. 231 00:11:44,039 --> 00:11:46,159 Speaker 1: And tell us a little bit about that district of 232 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:47,159 innovation process. 233 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you are meeting very baseline academic threshold, 234 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,279 you can opt out as a district of certain statutory provisions. 235 00:11:56,879 --> 00:11:59,399 And two of the most common things that they've opted 236 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:05,159 out of is requiring certification and requiring parental notification for 237 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:09,399 uncertified teachers, because that's the other thing that's happened is 238 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,120 this statute, in the absence of District of Innovation would 239 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,840 presume that, hey, parents are being notified if you're if 240 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,320 your kid doesn't have a certified teacher, that's also being waived. 241 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,879 And so parents are kind of being you know, left 242 00:12:23,039 --> 00:12:26,039 uninformed and wondering, what's going on in my classroom? Why 243 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,440 is this now? I happen to know ten layers deep 244 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,519 on tea website where to go look to see if 245 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,279 my kids teacher a certified. But I am not normal. 246 00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:37,399 Speaker 1: And what you're sort of describing here is that the 247 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,120 teacher the District of Innovation allows you to kind of 248 00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:45,200 go around that certification requirement. And so what we're seeing 249 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,840 here is actually not necessarily half of all students, I mean, 250 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,480 half of all teachers are being hired kind of evenly 251 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,039 across the state is uncertified. What we were actually seeing 252 00:12:57,159 --> 00:13:00,919 is a lot of districts hiring very large numbers uncertified 253 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,000 and others doing smaller I mean, once I that you 254 00:13:03,039 --> 00:13:06,159 mentioned seventy five percent of rural teachers actually are being 255 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,200 hired as uncertified. 256 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really I was a rural teacher, and the 257 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,759 challenges are just different on finding people to work in 258 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:16,440 rural schools, and it's so much more impact there in 259 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:19,720 rural districts. And I think the other thing about this 260 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,320 is by allowing the uncertified, unprepared individual in the classroom, 261 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,080 it's removed the incentive from anyone to go get certified. 262 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:31,519 So we've really seen our numbers drop off across the 263 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:34,960 board of people pursuing any preparation route. 264 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: Why was this sort of workaround created in the first place? 265 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,879 What was the goal? 266 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,519 Speaker 3: So I can't really speak to what the intent there was. 267 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,399 I think it was really built around creating more flexibility 268 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,360 for traditional districts and giving them some of the flexibilities 269 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,240 that charter schools had at the time, because charters have 270 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:56,039 long been able to be sort of exempt from the 271 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,480 preparation requirements. But in charters, parents go in knowing that 272 00:14:00,879 --> 00:14:03,559 the schools are prepared and set up to provide that 273 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,080 structured curriculum and support there. So it's a little bit 274 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,399 different environment from a charter and traditional district. 275 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: So are there states, I mean you talk about the 276 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,559 statutory framework in Texas. Are there states where like you 277 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,720 are required to have you cannot have uncertified teachers. 278 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: I think that's way more common than what we're dealing with. 279 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,039 We've seen some states shortcut their certification or do temporary 280 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,720 things to kind of get through the COVID crunch, But 281 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,000 I am not aware of a site that is as 282 00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:35,799 lacks on the preparation and certification requirements as Texas. 283 00:14:36,039 --> 00:14:38,279 Speaker 1: Interesting. All right, let's pause for a moment here from 284 00:14:38,279 --> 00:14:40,240 our sponsors, and then we'll talk about what might be 285 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,919 done about this. Raise your hand, Texas. When we invest 286 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:46,720 in our teachers, we invest in the future workforce of Texas. 287 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:51,120 We believe teachers make the difference. Commit Partnership. Visit commit 288 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,320 data dot org slash teachers to learn more about the 289 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,279 teacher experience, turnovers, salaries, and more for your Texas county 290 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,000 or school district. The Charles Butt Foundation enhancing education for 291 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,519 all Texas children by ensuring every classroom has a high 292 00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:13,440 performing teacher, especially where needed. Most Texas AFT Texas public schools, colleges, 293 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,159 and universities can thrive if we work together. Join Texas 294 00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:21,840 AFT in the fight at TEXASAFT dot org. Slash Together 295 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:28,039 dash we dash thrive. Okay, So here's my question for you. 296 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:32,320 What does the legislature think about this. What are is? 297 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,240 Do lawmakers consider this a problem or a solution? 298 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think we've sort of been on this 299 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:43,080 arc of how they've talked about this has changed. So 300 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:44,960 in the midst of the pandemic, we were talking about 301 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,440 teacher vacancies, and so we had the governor really step 302 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,240 out there in twenty twenty two and create this teacher 303 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,440 Vacancy task Force. They people from all around the state 304 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,879 came together really focused on the vacancy issue. Twenty twenty three, 305 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,879 legislature comes to town. They consider the teacher pay raise 306 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,519 bill you mentioned, They consider really comprehensive supports, preparation incentives 307 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:10,159 for candidates. Those things get to the five yard line 308 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,759 and they don't get across. But bipartisan leadership on both 309 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:18,720 sides and so interest in doing something about this problem. 310 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,039 The narrative then sort of shifts to being about this 311 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:26,039 uncertified teacher issue. And I think at first glance, people 312 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:28,480 are like, well, it makes sense to give districts some flexibility. 313 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,480 But as we've studied this issue and as we've seen 314 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,720 the data come out, folks have really become clear our 315 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,759 student achievement is sort of plateauing in the state, maybe 316 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:40,679 losing ground a little bit, and I think folks see 317 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:45,200 the connection between, Hey, if we're putting a substantial portion 318 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,080 of our teachers having no preparation and no teaching experience 319 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,039 in the classroom, it's going to have an impact on 320 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,159 student learning. So I would say we've got a broad 321 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,919 base of understanding from policymakers and an interest in doing 322 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,879 something about it. Chairman Buckley in House Book Education, they 323 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:03,679 had an interim charge. They had hearings on this, so 324 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,359 they've studied that the Senate had worked on at the 325 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,880 prior session and prior interim. So there is a kind 326 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,519 of broad based awareness that this is a challenge in 327 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,960 general consensus that we need to do something to close 328 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,960 the loophole and build the supply of well prepared teachers. 329 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: And it feels like there's there's sort of two options here. 330 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,920 There's the carrot, you know, try to incentivize more people 331 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,240 to become teachers, and the stick, which is, you know, 332 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,079 sort of requiring schools to hire certified teachers and things 333 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:35,920 like that. It seems like maybe both options are being 334 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,799 sort of considered in the legislature right now and might 335 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:41,400 have a pretty good chance of getting through. But let's 336 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,720 talk about the carrot at first, right. So the Senate 337 00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:47,680 has passed a teacher pay raise bill this legislative session. 338 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:51,240 It is something, as I mentioned at the start of 339 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,920 the show, that was blocked last legislative session. There was 340 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,480 commitment to do it, there was funding in the budget, 341 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,519 but it got sort of tied up with other kind 342 00:18:01,559 --> 00:18:05,519 of funding increases and was blocked by the governor essentially 343 00:18:05,559 --> 00:18:09,119 saying if you don't pass school voucher's school choice, then 344 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,880 you can't have these other extra funds as well. We're 345 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,400 back this session. As I mentioned earlier, they're going to 346 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,480 vote tomorrow Wednesday on the school voucher bill. I think 347 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:22,799 most people believe this time around is going to get through, 348 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,279 and so maybe a teacher raise will get through. I'm 349 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:29,519 going to read to you quickly the money that's at 350 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:34,279 stake here. Districts in smaller schools, mostly rural schools, would 351 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,599 receive bigger raises. Those with three to four experience would 352 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,480 receive a three to four years of experience would receive 353 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,000 a five thousand dollars raise. Five or more experience would 354 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,160 receive a ten thousand dollars raise. That would be about 355 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,920 half as much for the bigger districts, twenty five hundred 356 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,519 for the less experienced, five thousand for the more experience. 357 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,519 How much do you think that changes the equation in 358 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,240 terms of teacher recruitment challenges that already exist. 359 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 3: Well, I think it helps both with the recruitment but 360 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,920 even more importantly with retention. So I think we've got 361 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,480 to do something to try to catch our teachers who 362 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,200 are in the classroom doing the work. We've got to 363 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,400 stop the bleeding a little bit on attrition there, and 364 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,759 so I think some sort of teacher pay raise makes 365 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:21,200 a lot of sense. Governor Abbott named that as one 366 00:19:21,279 --> 00:19:24,359 of his emergency items, and so I think, you know, 367 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,759 there's a lot of momentum behind that. The structure of 368 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:29,599 it looks a little different between what the house is 369 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,440 thinking and what the sentence thinking, but there's definitely momentum there. 370 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,720 So I think that's both to make it more viable 371 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:37,920 for people to consider coming into the classroom, but even 372 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,160 more important to help stem the attrition and keep people 373 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:43,359 people in the classroom. 374 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,079 Speaker 1: The average national salary for teachers seventy one, six hundred 375 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:51,039 and ninety nine dollars. In Texas, that number is sixty 376 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:54,119 two four hundred and seventy for so we are considerably 377 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,920 under the national average for teachers. 378 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I imagine you can't just say, right, like, 379 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,440 no more uncertified teachers, right, like you have to fix 380 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,759 the structural problems that brought us here, right, right, sort of? 381 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,079 I presume your model for this, yes, right, I mean 382 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,480 what around this needs to be fixed to make this 383 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,880 not like, uh, you know, I cover healthcare, and so 384 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,319 I think about like the corollary of like rural healthcare 385 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,319 where it's like, obviously we don't have uncertified doctors, but 386 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,559 like the result is that rural hospitals close. 387 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: Right. 388 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: I mean you can't just say, like snap your fingers, 389 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,279 we need more providers, or we need more teachers in 390 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:32,759 this case. 391 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's why we have to build the supply. 392 00:20:35,519 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: We've got to. 393 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: If you close the loophole, you phase that out, then 394 00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:42,880 you instantly from day one, create an incentive for people 395 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,480 to go back into preparation. Something like seventy percent of 396 00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:49,960 the uncertified teachers now have been an educator preparation program. 397 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,519 They just left when they said, look what what am 398 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:55,079 I paying you for? I can do the job and 399 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,759 get this without so day one, those people can go 400 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,039 back and they can get a temper a certification to 401 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,039 get prepared while they're in there. What we've also got 402 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,200 to do is we've got to bring traditional preparation back 403 00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:11,920 and so both the semester long student teaching like we've 404 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:14,279 kind of thought about teaching in the past, but also 405 00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:17,200 kind of the newer model, which is a residency base, 406 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,000 which is more to the medical point. It's a year 407 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:23,119 long hands on you experienced the first day of school, 408 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,119 the last day of school, and really getting those hands 409 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,920 on experience. And we've got a number of programs in 410 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,880 Texas and a number of schools that have done work 411 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,319 in this, and so if we can create the incentives 412 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,559 for the candidates to get certified, for the districts to 413 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,240 hire and differentiate the compensation, then I think we can 414 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:43,440 start to move people back in there in the preparation 415 00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:46,599 programs to offer these sort of high quality routes. 416 00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: What happened to the traditional route? Like why is it 417 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:52,880 such a I mean, I used to cover a higher education. 418 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,519 I would hear about like, you know, colleges of education 419 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,559 just having declining student enrollment. But what's going on there 420 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,799 that people aren't choosing that route anymore. 421 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,319 Speaker 3: It's a long time journey. But a couple of things 422 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,039 happened in the eighties. One, they eliminated the education major 423 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,920 in statute and so in Texas, yeah, so everybody had 424 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,160 to get an academic major. And so that happened close 425 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,039 in time to when we created alternative certification programs, and 426 00:22:25,079 --> 00:22:28,920 so over time, the alternative certification route was more flexible. 427 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,880 You could get paid while receiving your training, and so 428 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,839 more people moved to that as our student population has changed. 429 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,880 Most students have to work while they're in college, and 430 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,759 to take a semester off and not being able to 431 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:45,480 draw an income while you're doing your student teaching. That's 432 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,119 really hard sacrificed for most people to make. So we 433 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,599 had a lot of people that go all the way 434 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,000 through four years and then they would say, oh, I'm 435 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,480 just not going to do my student teaching because I 436 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:56,920 need to work, and then they would have paid for 437 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,480 their teacher training and then paid for it again by 438 00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:02,079 entering in all alert program And so that's one of 439 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,519 the things we're decided about some of this legislation to 440 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:09,599 help compensate the candidates for their time in both traditional programs. 441 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,039 And the year long residency and with additional waiting and 442 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:16,559 funding for rural districts. We think, so that's some really 443 00:23:16,839 --> 00:23:18,720 smart rural proposals out there. 444 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,759 Speaker 2: I used to work in Pennsylvania, where like they had 445 00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:26,960 historically like this big network of teacher colleges that then 446 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,039 became four year colleges but really emphasized continue to emphasize, 447 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,000 you know, teaching degrees and education degrees. So it's so 448 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:36,200 interesting to hear Texas, you know, around that time that 449 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,039 they sort of were turning those two year teacher colleges 450 00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:42,559 into four year universities but continuing to really emphasize education. 451 00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:44,839 Like I knew a lot of people who just went 452 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,359 to those universities because it was like the university they 453 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,440 got into and ended up in a teaching program because 454 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,039 it was so emphasized by the school versus sort of 455 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:53,720 eliminating the education. 456 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 3: It has come back, It came back in twenty nineteen, 457 00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:59,359 but it's you know, it had really changed in twenty nineteen. 458 00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:02,799 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a very recent Yes, Yes, I feel like 459 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,039 where the issue is coming from. Yeah, I'm on expert. 460 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,079 Speaker 1: Yeah interesting, Yeah, so you talked about this already a 461 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,559 little bit, but you know, there are there are provisions 462 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,079 in the House bill that would essentially prevent districts from 463 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,400 hiring teachers without certifications you talk to. There's a Senate 464 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,319 bill that I think would do a similar thing. There's also, 465 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,880 as you mentioned, some funding to you know, help those 466 00:24:28,519 --> 00:24:31,119 help people get certified and things like that. But I mean, 467 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,680 I kind of want to go back to what Eleanor 468 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:36,240 was asking, which is, if there's not enough teachers and 469 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:39,240 there's not enough certified teachers, are we not just creating 470 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,599 a situation where it's going to make it harder for 471 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,279 districts to hire teachers while we're already facing a shortage. 472 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:51,720 I mean, how how do we? It seems to me 473 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,480 like this could be a recipe for, just as you 474 00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:57,640 maybe mentioned, increasing classroom sizes, because we just don't have 475 00:24:57,759 --> 00:24:59,240 enough certified teachers to go around. 476 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 3: If we don't both pieces, that's really the risk this session. 477 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,359 I think we've got a great opportunity to do national leading, 478 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,640 innovative kind of stuff in this space. But if we 479 00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:13,359 just closed the door without creating the incentives for quality, 480 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,759 we will have really missed an opportunity and sort of 481 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:18,599 set people up for failure. That's why I really think 482 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,160 It is the carrot and the stick. Because districts are 483 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,200 hiring people. They are hired forty four thousand people last 484 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:28,519 year something like that, So they are hiring somebody in 485 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:31,599 those classrooms. If we can create incentives to get those 486 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,680 people prepared while building the pipeline long term, I think 487 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,000 we can do that, but we can't. We really need 488 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:38,519 to do both. 489 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: So my sister also a teacher, actually a former teacher. 490 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,039 She was a special education teacher among the teachers that 491 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:52,119 are you know, most badly needed. She taught for multiple 492 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,039 years and made the decision, this is her first school 493 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:59,920 year to be outside of the profession. And you know, frankly, 494 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,119 it wasn't a decision of you know, I need to 495 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,440 go make more money. It was, you know, I don't 496 00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:09,359 feel respected in this job. There are so many kind 497 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,799 of things coming at us from the state government, from parents, 498 00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:18,079 from everything else. You know, we are not being treated 499 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,680 the way with the respect, you know, and the value 500 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,359 that we provide to society. I get. One of my 501 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,000 questions here is like this bill, these bills that we 502 00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:33,480 talked about don't necessarily address those issues. How much do 503 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:38,240 you think that is factoring into this challenge. Additionally, and 504 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,880 is there anything that you know the state or schools 505 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,319 can be doing about that. 506 00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:45,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's going to take everybody pull in 507 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:47,920 the right direction. I've heard Chairman Creighton talk a lot 508 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,680 about professionalizing teaching, and so I think preparation is a 509 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,319 part of that, the paying compensation, but I also think 510 00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,480 the classroom supports and the workload demands that we put 511 00:26:58,519 --> 00:27:02,200 on teachers, and classroom management, discipline issues. All of these 512 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,279 things add up. And I think Charman Creighton's got kind 513 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:07,880 of a series of three bills that work together on this, 514 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,839 and that's really how he's talked about the legislation. We 515 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,119 really appreciate him trying to take a comprehensive approach to it, 516 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,400 not trying to just do one part of the continuum, 517 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,200 but really trying to address it holistically. 518 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,519 Speaker 1: All Right, Well, we will see what happens. It's going 519 00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,400 to be an interesting week and an interesting month and 520 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,920 a half in education in this legislative session. So thank 521 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,160 you Ryan for joining us on this podcast. Thank you 522 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,000 to eleanor Into, our producers, Rob and Chris, and particularly 523 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,039 Rob the composer of our theme music. Thank you to 524 00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:44,480 our sponsors Texas AFT, the Charles Butt Foundation, raise your 525 00:27:44,519 --> 00:27:47,720 hand Texas in the Commit Partnership. We will talk to 526 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,720 you all next week.