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<v Speaker 1>The topics and opinions expressed on the following show are

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<v Speaker 1>solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

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<v Speaker 1>those of W four WN Radio It's employees or affiliates.

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<v Speaker 1>We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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<v Speaker 1>Radio It's employees or affiliates. Any questions or comment should

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<v Speaker 1>be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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<v Speaker 1>W four WN Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Fearless Fabulous You. I am your host,

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<v Speaker 2>Melanie Young, and I am so glad you're joining me today.

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<v Speaker 2>It's June one, Rabbit Rabbit two. I live on the

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<v Speaker 2>Women for Women Network, and you, if you're joining me

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time, welcome, and if you're coming back,

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<v Speaker 2>you are in for an amazing show. All my listeners,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't even begin to tell you how excited and

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<v Speaker 2>I am to have these two guests for myriad reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>The show will be available permanently on iHeart and about

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five other podcast platforms. I encourage you to share

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<v Speaker 2>it because it is going to be inspirational and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to set it up. I have two guests. They're

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<v Speaker 2>calling from the West Coast, and the inspiration is to

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<v Speaker 2>having them join me. Is based on an amazing memoir

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<v Speaker 2>called Bending Toward the Sun, a mother and daughter memoir,

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<v Speaker 2>which is also now available on Amazon's Audible. This is

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<v Speaker 2>this is how I set it up. When I talk

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<v Speaker 2>to people, imagine if On Fronk and her family who

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<v Speaker 2>lived in sequestered in an attic during World War II,

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<v Speaker 2>survived and came to America and had amazing and rich

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<v Speaker 2>lives and beautiful families. That is, as I read Bending

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<v Speaker 2>Toward the Sun, this all I could think of. Aut

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<v Speaker 2>is the story that could have happened, and it happened.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an amazing story of survival, family, faith, and motherhood.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to set it up this way, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to bring on my guests. It is the

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<v Speaker 2>mother and daughter So Rita Lurie was five years old

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<v Speaker 2>when she and her family fled their home in Poland

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<v Speaker 2>to hide from the Nazis during World War II. From

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<v Speaker 2>the summer of nineteen forty two to nineteen forty four,

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<v Speaker 2>she and fourteen members of her family shared a nearly

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<v Speaker 2>silent existence in a cramped, dark attic, subsisting on scraps

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<v Speaker 2>of food and negotiating with the people who own the

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<v Speaker 2>house to keep them safe. Through this long period of time,

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<v Speaker 2>Rita watched helplessly as a child as her younger brother

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<v Speaker 2>and then her mother died by her side. Motherless and stateless,

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<v Speaker 2>Reader and her surviving family members spent the next five

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<v Speaker 2>years wandering throughout Europe waiting for a country to accept them.

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<v Speaker 2>I just want you to put that into context into

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on these days in the Ukraine. Decades later,

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<v Speaker 2>mother is the matriarch of an amazing family in California,

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<v Speaker 2>and she became a wife, a mother, and a businesswoman.

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<v Speaker 2>And she is obviously a big important speaker as a

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<v Speaker 2>Holocaust survivor, which amazing is in itself because there really

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<v Speaker 2>aren't a lot of Holocaust survivors. She speaks to groups

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<v Speaker 2>all the time because unfortunately there are people who still

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<v Speaker 2>don't believe it happened, which just never will I will

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<v Speaker 2>never understand. Joining her is her daughter, Leslie Gilbert Lurie,

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<v Speaker 2>who is a lawyer, author, philanthropist, former television creative executive

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<v Speaker 2>and community leader, and a member of the International Board

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<v Speaker 2>of Directors of Human Rights Watch in the Alliance for

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<v Speaker 2>Children's Rights. Leslie and her sister went back to Poland

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<v Speaker 2>to see where her mother lived and where the family

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<v Speaker 2>me hid all that time nearly two years. So I

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<v Speaker 2>am going to introduce them. I've set this up. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to bring them on and welcome them, and then

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<v Speaker 2>we will start the discussion. So Rita Lurie and Leslie

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<v Speaker 2>Gilbert Lurie, welcome to Fearless Fabulous.

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<v Speaker 3>You thank thank you.

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<v Speaker 4>So I.

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<v Speaker 2>Gotta tell you I read the book and NonStop. I

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<v Speaker 2>am Jewish. My family came over to the United States

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighteen nineties. But Rita looks like my aunt

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel and told him for the show. He still has

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<v Speaker 2>a beautiful accent. My mother, who is not well, I

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<v Speaker 2>gave she likes to read. I gave her the book

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<v Speaker 2>and she did not leave the chair. She read it

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<v Speaker 2>in one sitting. It was incredible, So you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>really helped her through what she's going through, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a difficult time. So Rita, I set this up. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know in your words, I'm you know you were

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<v Speaker 2>hiding with your family in an hour for two almost

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<v Speaker 2>two years at five how vividal you know what was

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<v Speaker 2>you know, how vivid are those memories today in your life?

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<v Speaker 2>And which ones in particular?

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<v Speaker 3>Very visit ah, just remembering everybody being in pain for

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<v Speaker 3>one reason or another, being hungry, being afraid that any

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<v Speaker 3>minute we might be caught. It was a terrible existence.

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<v Speaker 3>And then my course, I loved my mother and my brother,

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<v Speaker 3>and that was just devastating.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine at five, Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>Even then it was devastating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, you're right. So the book, just so for my listeners,

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<v Speaker 2>is set up in voices. So the first part of

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<v Speaker 2>the book is your voice, and then last and then

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<v Speaker 2>yours together. And you bring in Leslie's daughter. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you had a sister, Rita who and you and you

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<v Speaker 2>were your kids and you're trying to play, and what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>They shushed you?

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<v Speaker 3>Right, we didn't try to play. We couldn't even try

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<v Speaker 3>to play. We couldn't even try to talk. We had

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<v Speaker 3>to be quiet, We couldn't talk.

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<v Speaker 2>So how did you pass the time?

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<v Speaker 5>I now, maybe maybe you could say what happened when

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<v Speaker 5>you did try to talk?

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<v Speaker 2>Ye's exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>I got a pillow put over my mouth if I

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<v Speaker 3>tried to talk.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I I that was very when I read

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<v Speaker 2>that I just gassed because I can't imagine. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>your family bartered all their clothing and jewelry to be

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<v Speaker 2>kept hidden because the you know, I think what my

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<v Speaker 2>listeners need to understand and explain, And Leslie, maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>can bring this in. Is it at that time in

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<v Speaker 2>Poland the families who were not Jewish, who held hid Jews,

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<v Speaker 2>they would be executed, correct?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yes, the punishment for helping a Jewish person was death.

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<v Speaker 3>So it was a huge risk.

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<v Speaker 2>And and it was an elderly couple and you could

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<v Speaker 2>hear them downstairs rita arguing about whether to let to

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<v Speaker 2>kick you all out right right right?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it was great. I mean that family was

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<v Speaker 3>helped by my grandfather before the war. That's why we

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<v Speaker 3>got help by them.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what was you know? And then and then

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<v Speaker 2>the war ended? And what was it like being released?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean into into being sunshine? I mean there was

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<v Speaker 2>no you were in a k attic five foot high ceilings.

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<v Speaker 2>What was it like when you were released?

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<v Speaker 3>It was scary. It was scary because we've sensed the

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<v Speaker 3>fear of the of my father because it was still

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<v Speaker 3>possible that somebody would would kill us. We weren't sure.

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<v Speaker 3>As we were walking to find our house, we walked

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<v Speaker 3>a long way and I patidly walked. I got carried

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<v Speaker 3>part of the way. It was it just it was,

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<v Speaker 3>it was all painful. Everything was just very scary and painful.

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<v Speaker 2>What I didn't understand and learned because I've been really

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<v Speaker 2>diving into this period for a while to learn more

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<v Speaker 2>about vis if everybody's saying that we're facing potentially in

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<v Speaker 2>another World war. So I'm obviously very concerned. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>realize that after the war the Polish resented the Jews

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<v Speaker 2>because it because the I guess their situation was so

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<v Speaker 2>fragile afterward, right, and so there was a risk. There

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<v Speaker 2>was a risk still because of that, Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>Go ahead, was.

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<v Speaker 5>I just there was a lot of anti Semitism in

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<v Speaker 5>Poland before the war too, and so but but then,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, prejudice gets tightened when people are most insecure

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<v Speaker 5>financially in any way. I mean, prejudice is about one

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<v Speaker 5>group trying to feel better about themselves by belittling another group, right,

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, there there's prejudices, you know, just sort of

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<v Speaker 5>part of the human condition, and anti Semitism was fairly

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<v Speaker 5>prevalent in Poland, so it's not necessary. And then the

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<v Speaker 5>war probably tightened that in a lot of ways because

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<v Speaker 5>Germany invaded Poland and you know, their food, the Polish

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<v Speaker 5>people's food was rationed also, and you know, they were

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<v Speaker 5>compromised in a lot of ways. But it's it's not

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<v Speaker 5>clear that the anti Semitism was worse after the war

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<v Speaker 5>than before the war. You would just think maybe it

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<v Speaker 5>would have been better, and that wasn't the case either.

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<v Speaker 2>What's amazing is that, you know, Leslie, how so so Rita,

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<v Speaker 2>you your family kind of was you know, we're going

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<v Speaker 2>from encampment and encampment to encampment for refugees. You lived

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<v Speaker 2>in Italy for a while, which seemed a positive experience,

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<v Speaker 2>but you were also hospitalized for a while because you

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<v Speaker 2>had severe illness from being a questioned from no son.

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<v Speaker 4>No.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's amazing that you're you're a healthy, physically healthy woman,

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<v Speaker 2>you know in the you know, uh and and we're

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<v Speaker 2>able to have children, et cetera. Now throughout this your

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<v Speaker 2>father remarried, so he remarried a woman that who lost

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<v Speaker 2>her family at Auschwitz and survived. And I think, what, really,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a cancer survivor, so I get surviving, but this

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<v Speaker 2>is a different kind of cancer because this is a

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<v Speaker 2>whole you know, I can't this is there's so I

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<v Speaker 2>understand fearing your life, but this is your head extended

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<v Speaker 2>for me those two years of fear. But your stepmother

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<v Speaker 2>seemed very angry about what happened and had it was

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<v Speaker 2>a It was a difficult relationship for you, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think still and I you know was was through the book.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you know? How did you handle that? You

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<v Speaker 2>and your sister, because your sister is very close, handle

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<v Speaker 2>that when your father remarried. Knowing the loss of your

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<v Speaker 2>mother was such a overwhelming experience.

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<v Speaker 3>My sister was not as uh uh, how would I

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<v Speaker 3>say it, Not as afraid of her I should I

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<v Speaker 3>should say, or not as in impatience, but as I

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<v Speaker 3>was because I was not well, So I wasn't treated

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<v Speaker 3>that was she. She was kind of not treating me well.

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<v Speaker 3>And I was very sad, openly sad. Yeah, more more

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<v Speaker 3>than my sister was.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very prolonged period of sad. This and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>really sorry that you had to go through that because

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<v Speaker 2>you're you know, freedom after being an antic and then

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<v Speaker 2>pasted in another type of uncomfortable you know, hospital, and

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<v Speaker 2>it just it was a long period. What's amazing is

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<v Speaker 2>that you and your family came to America, established yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>and you feund love and you went you you went

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<v Speaker 2>to school, you you repatriated here and you became a mother,

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<v Speaker 2>and you said you wanted to be the best mother ever.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to me about that, because I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was very moved by that, as you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>particularly these days where women are you know, multitasking like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, have to go get Chris. The think you

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<v Speaker 2>dedicated yourself to being a mother. What is it that

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<v Speaker 2>you wanted to give.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't remember saying I remember feeling it, but saying it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it was clear you wanted to be a very

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<v Speaker 2>good mother, and you were. But you also had a career.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I did many things. Actually I was a business woman.

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<v Speaker 3>I I took class and at school. I uh, I

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<v Speaker 3>and I had children, you know, so I was I was,

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<v Speaker 3>I was pretty busy.

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<v Speaker 2>You're very busy. You're very busy. I was, you were traveling.

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<v Speaker 2>I was impressed. And Leslie growing up, you and your sister,

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<v Speaker 2>what did you know about your mother's past? What I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>how did you how did it become more aware? To

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<v Speaker 2>you excuse me.

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<v Speaker 5>I think little by little, I think I felt that

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<v Speaker 5>I always knew that there was something different.

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<v Speaker 4>About my mom, something maybe a most sort of sad

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<v Speaker 4>about her past that I just almost intuited.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think somewhere along the way, I knew that

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<v Speaker 5>her mother had died, but I did not know very

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<v Speaker 5>much about the Holocaust. My cousins from New York, the

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<v Speaker 5>children of the people my mom hid in the attic

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<v Speaker 5>with her sister, her brother, and her parents, and then cousins,

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<v Speaker 5>three cousins who had lived down the street from her,

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<v Speaker 5>and those cousins and their children came to visit us

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<v Speaker 5>in Los Angeles when I was seven years old, and

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<v Speaker 5>I think maybe that was the first time I actually

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<v Speaker 5>heard people talk about the Holocaust. My mom and her

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<v Speaker 5>sister and the three cousins all sat in the family room,

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<v Speaker 5>and I'm sure in one way or another we caught

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<v Speaker 5>bits and pieces of it, but really, until I was

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<v Speaker 5>in my late TEA mean, I think what I really

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<v Speaker 5>knew is that my mother's mother had died, and that

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<v Speaker 5>seemed inconceivable to me because I was so attached to

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<v Speaker 5>my mother, and I would ask her questions about the

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<v Speaker 5>attict and what she ate in the attic and if

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<v Speaker 5>her mother shared food with her.

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<v Speaker 3>I was very I think that was sort of my

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<v Speaker 3>view of the war as a child.

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<v Speaker 2>Very interesting because you know, I didn't know, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I honestly, I'll be honest with you, Rita, You're the

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<v Speaker 2>first person I've ever spoken to this Holocaust survivor. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just in my mind is going and I'm just amazed.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I grew up I mean, I'm Jewish. I

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<v Speaker 2>grew up hearing about it, right, I grew up with

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<v Speaker 2>a family that feared that it could happen again. Anti Semitism,

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<v Speaker 2>we know is still extremely prevalent, which is very upsetting.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what do you say to people who, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>who deny there's even a Holocaust?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think go ahead. I'm sorry, mom, I don't

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<v Speaker 3>be've acknowledged them. I mean, because it's stupid. Anybody who

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<v Speaker 3>devised to look closes really living in this world.

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<v Speaker 5>Also really Holocaust deniers. It's just a form of hate speech.

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<v Speaker 5>There's evidence all around that the Holocaust existed. It's as

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<v Speaker 5>documented as World War One or World War two, So

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<v Speaker 5>to say it didn't exist it is really just a

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<v Speaker 5>provocative form of hate speech, but it was one of

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<v Speaker 5>my mother's reasons for wanting to write this book. I

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<v Speaker 5>was at her house one morning and she was frustrated,

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<v Speaker 5>and I asked her what was wrong, and she told

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<v Speaker 5>me she really wanted to tell this story, that she

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<v Speaker 5>couldn't find the right person to write it with her.

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<v Speaker 5>And I asked why she wanted to tell it, And

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<v Speaker 5>first of all, she you know, reiterated to me that

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<v Speaker 5>she had been speaking about her story and churches and

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<v Speaker 5>synagogues and schools and students were so interested in this,

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<v Speaker 5>and she wanted to tell her story to a broader group.

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<v Speaker 5>But she also talked about the Holocaust deniers she had

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<v Speaker 5>seen on the news lately, and she did want to

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<v Speaker 5>provide even more testimony of what took place. And finally,

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<v Speaker 5>she said to me she wanted to show that people

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<v Speaker 5>could go through the worst experiences imaginable and not only survive,

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<v Speaker 5>but survived well, like go on to have good things

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<v Speaker 5>happen in their lives. And I was sort of really

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<v Speaker 5>moved that day, and I said, well, maybe I could

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<v Speaker 5>help you, and I always think she didn't hear anything.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe, so she said, well, when are we going to

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<v Speaker 3>start writing this?

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<v Speaker 5>And That's how we started our book, but it was

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<v Speaker 5>partly inspired by hearing more and more Holocaust deniers.

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<v Speaker 2>So what was it like to write the book with

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<v Speaker 2>your mother? And was a cathartic? Was it challenging? And

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<v Speaker 2>how long was the process?

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<v Speaker 5>It was a long process. It was a great experience.

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<v Speaker 5>I had a lot of concern.

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<v Speaker 3>About going into this.

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<v Speaker 5>I didn't want to promise something I couldn't deliver. I

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<v Speaker 5>had never I had never written a book.

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<v Speaker 3>I had been an executive at.

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<v Speaker 5>NBC and written some television scripts and I liked to write,

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<v Speaker 5>but I had never even thought about writing a memoir.

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<v Speaker 5>And beyond that, when I told people that I had

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<v Speaker 5>decided to write a Holocaust story, most people said to me, ough,

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<v Speaker 5>not another Holocaust story.

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<v Speaker 3>No, really, what a great idea.

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<v Speaker 5>But I knew from my television experience that we had

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<v Speaker 5>every First of all, I knew no one ever knows

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00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:01.720
<v Speaker 5>what's going on, be good or not. You just have

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00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:05.680
<v Speaker 5>to believe in your ideas. And second, I knew that

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<v Speaker 5>my mom was a really interesting character and that her

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00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:09.440
<v Speaker 5>story had a.

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00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.200
<v Speaker 3>Lot of drama.

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00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:14.039
<v Speaker 5>And we found a really different way to tell the

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00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:18.599
<v Speaker 5>story by putting me into it and my daughter putting

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00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.559
<v Speaker 5>three generations into a Holocaust story.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just had a gut sense that this could

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<v Speaker 3>be successful.

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<v Speaker 5>But you know, and I say this because I want

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<v Speaker 5>aspiring writers to be able to hold onto their conviction

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00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.920
<v Speaker 5>of what a good story is, because you know, everyone

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00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.519
<v Speaker 5>said it wouldn't work until it did, and then people

316
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:47.000
<v Speaker 5>loved it. But along the way I really enjoyed working

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00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.279
<v Speaker 5>with my mom. I thought maybe I wouldn't. You never

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00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.440
<v Speaker 5>know what it's like to get into a project like

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<v Speaker 5>this whistline you love so much and are so close

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00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.759
<v Speaker 5>to but they're still your mom. But my mom brought

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00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.480
<v Speaker 5>her her most professional self to this. She showed up

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00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.759
<v Speaker 5>at my house every day. We spent probably a year

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00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.200
<v Speaker 5>and a half telling me her story, and I was

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00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.640
<v Speaker 5>so impressed by how well she remembered so much.

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<v Speaker 3>But because she had been.

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00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:21.039
<v Speaker 5>So young, I knew we needed other people brought into

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00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.319
<v Speaker 5>the story. So we made a point of talking to

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00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.000
<v Speaker 5>her sister, her three cousins, her two uncles who hid

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<v Speaker 5>in the attic with her, and I had also been

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<v Speaker 5>back to Poland years earlier, so I was able to

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<v Speaker 5>incorporate what the woman who hid my mother had told us.

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<v Speaker 5>So we had a lot of documentation. But it took

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<v Speaker 5>probably I would say five or six years to write

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00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.880
<v Speaker 5>it because I was still working full time at the

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00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:54.799
<v Speaker 5>same time, and then a couple of years. Then we

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00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.359
<v Speaker 5>had to find an agent, and then Harper Collins bought it,

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00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.920
<v Speaker 5>but then they had an editor, and it took eight

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00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.680
<v Speaker 5>years at least from the time we started till the

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00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:05.720
<v Speaker 5>time it was published.

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<v Speaker 2>But what a story. And you know what amazed me.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a couple of things that amazed but obviously

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<v Speaker 2>that the story of that, but the fact that fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>people were hidden in an attic, and a very small fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>There was like no space. And those who did leave

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<v Speaker 2>and escape and repatriate are did very well. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think most are still and I mean you may have

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00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.799
<v Speaker 2>passed some, but many many are still alive.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, Yes, My mom, her sister, and the three cousins

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<v Speaker 5>are all still alive.

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<v Speaker 2>Just amazing.

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<v Speaker 5>A couple of our uncles died very recently, once in

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<v Speaker 5>his nineties, so yes, I mean, miraculously they survived and

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00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:54.119
<v Speaker 5>survived well. But and I was really intrigued when you

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<v Speaker 5>started and said that, you know, imagine Anne Frank, because

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<v Speaker 5>that was sort of my working idea when we started

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<v Speaker 5>this is we all think if only Anne Frank had survived,

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<v Speaker 5>like you know, everyone would have lived happily ever after

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<v Speaker 5>the minute.

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<v Speaker 3>The war was over.

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<v Speaker 5>And one of the reasons we wanted to tell this

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<v Speaker 5>story is because to show that when children are impacted

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<v Speaker 5>by war and trauma, that that stays with them their

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<v Speaker 5>whole lives too. It's not exactly like a Disney film

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00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.079
<v Speaker 5>where you know, when the prince comes along, everything works

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<v Speaker 5>out well. Like my mother's life and that of her

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<v Speaker 5>sister and her cousins has been, you know, much more

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<v Speaker 5>of a struggle because of what they encountered as children,

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<v Speaker 5>and you know that impacted their children and grandchildren also.

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<v Speaker 2>I was actually very impressed in terms of admiration that

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<v Speaker 2>you were so open Rita and Leslie about Rita's bounce

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<v Speaker 2>of depression. I've interviewed a lot of women on this

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<v Speaker 2>show who've gone through horrific trauma as children. I've done

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of shows on that and have come out

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<v Speaker 2>on as adults as amazing women doing incredible things, many

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<v Speaker 2>or business owners, everything, but they always carry inside of

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<v Speaker 2>them something that happens. It will always stay with them.

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<v Speaker 2>And you're very open about having depression recurring depression and

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<v Speaker 2>debilitating for which I admire because a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>hide that. And I think it's good to be open

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<v Speaker 2>because reassuring that this is something that does happen after trauma, right.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, absolutely absolutely, And you know, and one of the

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<v Speaker 5>things that we always really want to talk about is,

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00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:59.039
<v Speaker 5>you know, it's been amazing sharing one story, how many

384
00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.680
<v Speaker 5>stories have come back to us of young people today

385
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:08.519
<v Speaker 5>and what they are going through and their their own traumas,

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<v Speaker 5>and to get people to talk about it, but also

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00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:17.200
<v Speaker 5>to really encourage mental health services being available to young

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00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.160
<v Speaker 5>people experiencing trauma, because you know, we believe that had

389
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:24.839
<v Speaker 5>that been available to my mom earlier, it would have

390
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:28.880
<v Speaker 5>really helped with her recovery exactly.

391
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:30.720
<v Speaker 2>And I kept as I read the book, I kept

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about what's going on in the Ukraine right now,

393
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:38.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think about those children, yes so, and I

394
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.680
<v Speaker 2>think about the fear and how these children will never

395
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, and they're going to be, you know, going

396
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:46.680
<v Speaker 2>from a camp much like you did. They've been going

397
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.319
<v Speaker 2>to they've been assigned Italy and Poland. And as I

398
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>read your book, I thought about that because you've got rius.

399
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.359
<v Speaker 2>I was amazed how many times you had to move

400
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:59.839
<v Speaker 2>around after release. I don't understand the process of how why,

401
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I really don't, but it seemed like a really long time.

402
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.000
<v Speaker 2>It seemed like Italy was the longest period of time

403
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:06.960
<v Speaker 2>you were anywhere.

404
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.960
<v Speaker 5>Yes, it took him five years to moving from displaced

405
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.720
<v Speaker 5>persons camp to displaced persons camp, mostly in Italy. But

406
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 5>the reason is they had to wait for.

407
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.920
<v Speaker 3>Some country to take them in. They weren't really.

408
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:29.240
<v Speaker 5>Citizens of any country, and ultimately a distant relative in

409
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.359
<v Speaker 5>the United States sponsored my mother's family to come to

410
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.440
<v Speaker 5>the United States. But she was twelve years old and

411
00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:38.039
<v Speaker 5>she had never been to school because the war had

412
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:42.440
<v Speaker 5>started just when she turned five. They went into hiding,

413
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.240
<v Speaker 5>so she didn't speak a word of English, and she

414
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.480
<v Speaker 5>started school for the first time in her life at

415
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.279
<v Speaker 5>twelve years old, in the seventh grade in New York.

416
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, but you know, it is a.

417
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.680
<v Speaker 5>Reminder, you know of what the children in Ukraine are

418
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:02.400
<v Speaker 5>going through right now, but also you know, in Afghanistan

419
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:07.200
<v Speaker 5>experience so many other places in the world because you know,

420
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.440
<v Speaker 5>the Ukraine is just closer to you know, right where

421
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:16.079
<v Speaker 5>my mother was born, but all those children are experiencing

422
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:18.599
<v Speaker 5>so much of the same thing from you know so

423
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.480
<v Speaker 5>many different places in the world right now.

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00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.759
<v Speaker 2>It's it just never ends. You know what. We can't

425
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:26.200
<v Speaker 2>seem to learn from our lessons of history.

426
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.160
<v Speaker 5>Can we? No?

427
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:33.799
<v Speaker 2>No, no, it's so discouraging, it really is. And I

428
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.599
<v Speaker 2>don't understand. You know, we're supposed to be humankind, but

429
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:42.599
<v Speaker 2>we're fairly inhuman often and a lot of it. Yeah.

430
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.440
<v Speaker 5>Well, I was going to say that children ultimately become

431
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:50.119
<v Speaker 5>the most vulnerable because they're the least able to advocate

432
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:54.559
<v Speaker 5>for themselves. They obviously have the least responsibility for their

433
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:58.279
<v Speaker 5>country being involved in a war to begin with, so

434
00:27:58.559 --> 00:27:59.799
<v Speaker 5>at every level.

435
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.400
<v Speaker 2>They're the it's all, yeah, and it packs him forever.

436
00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:07.559
<v Speaker 2>I want to talk about the motherhood theme throughout the book.

437
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:13.759
<v Speaker 2>It's very strong, very strong, Rita. You obviously were very

438
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>you loved your mother dearly. Her loss, she basically lost

439
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.720
<v Speaker 2>the will to live, which is a very sad way

440
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>to die. I've seen it before. My father lost his

441
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:28.400
<v Speaker 2>will to live. I'm dealing with a mother now who

442
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.400
<v Speaker 2>just broke her hip this past weekend, and her will

443
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:35.799
<v Speaker 2>is very negative right now, and we're trying to turn

444
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>that around. But you know, when that happens, the mind

445
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:47.000
<v Speaker 2>is a powerful thing. And then you had another mother,

446
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:52.839
<v Speaker 2>a stepmother who had a whole other personality and was

447
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:59.119
<v Speaker 2>difficult and resentful and protective, but resentful. It's difficult. And

448
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.720
<v Speaker 2>then you became I'm a parent and you're also a grandmother.

449
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:09.039
<v Speaker 2>What have you I'd like you to share with both

450
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:13.720
<v Speaker 2>of you what you have learned from the experience from

451
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:17.400
<v Speaker 2>generation to generation about what you see in each other.

452
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:21.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, how does motherhood Where do you see motherhood

453
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:25.960
<v Speaker 2>in terms of the lessons learned?

454
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.119
<v Speaker 3>Are you saying in terms of the lessons learned from

455
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:31.200
<v Speaker 3>the Holocaust?

456
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.759
<v Speaker 2>No, from your own experience of seeing a mother, knowing

457
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:41.119
<v Speaker 2>your mother suffered, so survived but still suffers. And you

458
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>have a very tight relationship with your mother, so communication

459
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.680
<v Speaker 2>is very important. You know, what do you think strengthens

460
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:49.920
<v Speaker 2>the mother? You know, we've seen you know there was

461
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>a mother that was a stepmother, that was less of

462
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a bond. What has strengthened you from mother to daughter

463
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 2>to granddaughter as the story unfolds as unfolded.

464
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 3>It's just my my need to love and be loved.

465
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:07.400
<v Speaker 2>M hm.

466
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:17.880
<v Speaker 3>And and I'm very uh, let's see, how would I say,

467
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm very h oh involved, not involved, but I'm very.

468
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.519
<v Speaker 3>You're looking for the word in mesh, not a mesh

469
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.279
<v Speaker 3>that I don't do. I'm a mesh. Do you think

470
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:46.200
<v Speaker 3>I'm a mesh? I I'm very. I feel very close

471
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:50.880
<v Speaker 3>to my family because they're so important to me because

472
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.839
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have it when I was young.

473
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.319
<v Speaker 5>Mm hmm, yeah. I think that is one of the

474
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:00.880
<v Speaker 5>things my mom passed down to all of us, is

475
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:08.559
<v Speaker 5>how central and important family is. I remember my you know,

476
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:10.480
<v Speaker 5>every time we hang up from each other, we all

477
00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:13.160
<v Speaker 5>say I love you. And I remember my step son

478
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:16.319
<v Speaker 5>one time saying to me that he literally was talking

479
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.400
<v Speaker 5>to an operator and hanging up and he almost started

480
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.920
<v Speaker 5>to say I love you because he was just so

481
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.519
<v Speaker 5>used to saying it as he hung.

482
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Up the phone.

483
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.599
<v Speaker 5>So I think that that you know, just that closeness

484
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:35.559
<v Speaker 5>and that that idea that when you you know that

485
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:41.799
<v Speaker 5>in the best of circumstances, you can rely on family members.

486
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.599
<v Speaker 5>I think in terms of the mother daughter bond, though

487
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:50.400
<v Speaker 5>it's a you know, it's a beautiful and complicated bond

488
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:54.839
<v Speaker 5>that changes all the time, and you know, and I'm

489
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 5>learning every day. I learned to be a better daughter,

490
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.400
<v Speaker 5>and I learned to be a better mother and a

491
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 5>lot of it in life is just showing up, showing

492
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:10.039
<v Speaker 5>up every day, dealing with the guilt. We all feel

493
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:13.279
<v Speaker 5>that we're not perfect, that you know, we can't be

494
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:17.119
<v Speaker 5>everything that each other wants us to be. But we're

495
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:21.319
<v Speaker 5>there and we're trying and we're open, and you know,

496
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.519
<v Speaker 5>it's I think it's hard. It's hard to be it's

497
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.039
<v Speaker 5>hard to be a mother, and it's hard to be

498
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.119
<v Speaker 5>a daughter because you know, our instinct I think as

499
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.519
<v Speaker 5>strong women is you want to fix everything. You want

500
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:34.000
<v Speaker 5>to fix everything. I want to fix everything for my mother.

501
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 5>I want to fix everything for my daughter.

502
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:38.160
<v Speaker 3>And you can't.

503
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 5>You can't fix your you know, mother's broken bones. You

504
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:46.160
<v Speaker 5>can't fix you know, you can't fix your children's broken hearts.

505
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:50.640
<v Speaker 5>But you can show up and listen and you know,

506
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.759
<v Speaker 5>be be the best.

507
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:52.960
<v Speaker 4>You can be.

508
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.759
<v Speaker 3>And I agree, well, me, I worry when they go

509
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:03.359
<v Speaker 3>with the trip of very worried of about their safety.

510
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:08.240
<v Speaker 3>I always can't wait till they come back so I

511
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:09.359
<v Speaker 3>know they're okay.

512
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Thank god we have means that we have phones in

513
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:16.880
<v Speaker 2>facetimes now and the back in the day, I can't

514
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:18.680
<v Speaker 2>imagine what it was like. You know, I want to

515
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:23.960
<v Speaker 2>talk about a topic I want to talk about forgiveness, Yeah,

516
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.839
<v Speaker 2>because I think, you know, how do you forgive or

517
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.119
<v Speaker 2>do you forgive? And I think about Judaism, and you know,

518
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:38.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually as I'm speaking, I'm looking at a saying

519
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>by Julius Ox. He founded the New York Times and

520
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 2>he's actually from Chattanooga, where I am. And he talks about,

521
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:51.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, God alone by forms and ceremonies, a virtuous

522
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:54.440
<v Speaker 2>life in the practice of charity and benevolence is my religion.

523
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.039
<v Speaker 2>And he talks about giving back and doing good. But

524
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:04.440
<v Speaker 2>what about forgiveness? How do you reconcile that based on

525
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.840
<v Speaker 2>what happened to you Rita and what happened to you

526
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.159
<v Speaker 2>as you learned it about your mother? How do you

527
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.920
<v Speaker 2>deal with that learning to you can't forget, but can

528
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.480
<v Speaker 2>you forgive? Or how do you process it into something

529
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:21.039
<v Speaker 2>that's a positive thing? Mom?

530
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.079
<v Speaker 3>Do you want to answer or give the Holocaust?

531
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Well no, yea't forgive, but do not forgive. But you

532
00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:33.280
<v Speaker 2>can never forgive the Holocaust. But there are people who were,

533
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, difficult afterward. I mean I personally felt the

534
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.719
<v Speaker 2>couple that hols you was they were kind, but they

535
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.559
<v Speaker 2>were also difficult and she was mad. Wasn't she angry

536
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.719
<v Speaker 2>when you went back, Leslie?

537
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:50.079
<v Speaker 5>We talked about she was not angry when we went back.

538
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:55.519
<v Speaker 3>But actually my mother and I went back. This isn't

539
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 3>even in the book.

540
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:01.679
<v Speaker 5>But after our book was published, we just speak in Poland.

541
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:04.599
<v Speaker 5>And so my mom came back with me for the

542
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:10.119
<v Speaker 5>first time since she was seven years old. And first

543
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:12.159
<v Speaker 5>of all, something fascinating happened.

544
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 3>We got out of our car, my mom.

545
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.960
<v Speaker 5>And me and my husband and my kids and my

546
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:20.519
<v Speaker 5>friend Lynn, and a twelve year old girl was walking

547
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.000
<v Speaker 5>down the street and immediately walked by us and said,

548
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.920
<v Speaker 5>I know you. She said in Poland, but she's Polish,

549
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:29.920
<v Speaker 5>but she said I know you, and which seemed crazy

550
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.400
<v Speaker 5>because of course my mom.

551
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:33.599
<v Speaker 3>Hadn't been back there since she was seven years old.

552
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:37.440
<v Speaker 5>But it turned out her village had just celebrated its

553
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:42.079
<v Speaker 5>six hundred year anniversary and in all the celebrations, her

554
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:44.239
<v Speaker 5>teacher had noticed that there was no mention of the

555
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.440
<v Speaker 5>Jewish people who had lived in the village before the war.

556
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.679
<v Speaker 5>So the teacher asked this twelve year old girl to

557
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.519
<v Speaker 5>write a book about the Jewish families who had lived

558
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:57.079
<v Speaker 5>in the village, and she had just interviewed the town

559
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.400
<v Speaker 5>historian and all the oldest people in the village, and

560
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.119
<v Speaker 5>at the center of her report, which had just won

561
00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:05.719
<v Speaker 5>an award from the mayor, was a picture of my

562
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:10.159
<v Speaker 5>mom and me. It made it feel like it was

563
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.400
<v Speaker 5>a very small world, and you know, in a complicated world.

564
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:21.280
<v Speaker 5>But everywhere we've spoken over ten years, which is a

565
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:25.719
<v Speaker 5>lot of places, every month, someone asked this exact question.

566
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.960
<v Speaker 5>They asked my mom if she forgives, if she forgives,

567
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:35.039
<v Speaker 5>you know, the people who harmed her family. It's you know,

568
00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:39.159
<v Speaker 5>it's an important question, and Mom, maybe you can say

569
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:42.960
<v Speaker 5>first and then, but you can you can just talk

570
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:49.400
<v Speaker 5>about how you feel about you know, about forgiveness.

571
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:55.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, defendant, who I'm supposed to forgive for us?

572
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:59.000
<v Speaker 5>Do you forgive anyone connected with the Holocaust?

573
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:03.519
<v Speaker 3>Connected with the Holocaust?

574
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:08.760
<v Speaker 5>No, M yeah, I think that that, you know, and

575
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:12.000
<v Speaker 5>I always feel like it's not really my place to forgive,

576
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.559
<v Speaker 5>but it's you know, and to the extent that forgiveness

577
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:23.559
<v Speaker 5>is uh relevant, I you know, I guess I don't

578
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:30.159
<v Speaker 5>either forgive anyone who shot people innocent people who shoot

579
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:35.000
<v Speaker 5>innocent people. But I would say that the family who

580
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:40.519
<v Speaker 5>hid my mother's family, they I think they were appropriately complicated.

581
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 5>I think they did an amazingly heroic act by taking

582
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:51.239
<v Speaker 5>in my mother's family. And when we interviewed Maria Groholski,

583
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:55.760
<v Speaker 5>the stopped at Groholski's wife, the woman who was fighting them,

584
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.119
<v Speaker 5>who she had four young children of her own in

585
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.840
<v Speaker 5>their home. Every day their life.

586
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.960
<v Speaker 3>Was at risk. Nazis would come.

587
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:07.480
<v Speaker 5>By their home to get provisions all the time, so

588
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:11.079
<v Speaker 5>if a child cried in the attic, they would hit

589
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.519
<v Speaker 5>one of their own children downstairs so that the cries

590
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:22.239
<v Speaker 5>downstairs might cover up the cries upstairs. One day, Maria

591
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.280
<v Speaker 5>Girloski calls. She was peeling potatoes and a neighbor came

592
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:28.519
<v Speaker 5>by and said, why do you need all those potatoes?

593
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:30.800
<v Speaker 5>And she had to quickly make up a story about

594
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:35.039
<v Speaker 5>her forces having teeth problems and needing to boil potatoes

595
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.639
<v Speaker 5>for them. So, you know, under so much stress, I

596
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.000
<v Speaker 5>could understand why they would have mixed feelings about my

597
00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:48.199
<v Speaker 5>mother's family staying there for two years. But they truly

598
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:49.079
<v Speaker 5>were heroic.

599
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 3>But us, to tell you, the reason he took us

600
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:58.920
<v Speaker 3>in is because my grandfather and he had a relationship

601
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:04.159
<v Speaker 3>of my grandfather that upset a lot of favors for

602
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.679
<v Speaker 3>him m and took care.

603
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:13.400
<v Speaker 5>But Mom, that doesn't compare to hiding a family for

604
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:14.239
<v Speaker 5>two years.

605
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:19.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, risking your life, risking your family's life.

606
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 3>Right, he didn't know it's going to be for a

607
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:27.239
<v Speaker 3>couple of years, he no, you know, but then there's

608
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.599
<v Speaker 3>nothing he could do about it.

609
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:31.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think in forgive that, you know, I

610
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 2>think about my grandfather. My grandparents never bought German. They

611
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:39.119
<v Speaker 2>never would buy anything German, you know. You know that's

612
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I think where you go with it, you can't forgive.

613
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:45.519
<v Speaker 2>But there's the things that linger beyond. I mean, you know,

614
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:48.800
<v Speaker 2>even you know, there are people who still won't buy

615
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Japanese you know, things, you know, because a pearl harbor.

616
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 2>There's it. You know what where you have to draw

617
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.159
<v Speaker 2>the line, I guess is trying to say this was

618
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:03.119
<v Speaker 2>a terrible, horrible, evil thing that happened. But the people

619
00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:08.239
<v Speaker 2>who are living today who just happened to be Japanese

620
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:11.639
<v Speaker 2>or German, you know, it's they're a fate. They didn't

621
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:13.800
<v Speaker 2>do it, you know, they're they're different people. They probably

622
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.079
<v Speaker 2>and I don't even know how the Holocaust is taught

623
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:18.280
<v Speaker 2>in Germany. I always wondered how that was because I

624
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.119
<v Speaker 2>live in the South, and I know, I hate to

625
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.239
<v Speaker 2>say it, but the war between the States is called

626
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the War of Northern Aggression. So I always wonder how

627
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.239
<v Speaker 2>I just can't even imagine. But I would be angry,

628
00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:31.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, I would be angry if I were a

629
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.960
<v Speaker 2>young German today and saw how my country treated people.

630
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.000
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I'm still angry that we interned people

631
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:41.360
<v Speaker 2>from how we treated the Japanese. But I me and

632
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.599
<v Speaker 2>everybody's individual and it's a very complicated world right now

633
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:46.760
<v Speaker 2>because I think the world is filled with a lot

634
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.760
<v Speaker 2>of hate, which I'd hate to see because we need

635
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.960
<v Speaker 2>to be filled with love. Are you familiar with kavad

636
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:54.960
<v Speaker 2>kovo d?

637
00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Now?

638
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:02.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm going to introduce so John an Israel Pregleman.

639
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 2>John is from Chanooga and he's a lawyer. He started

640
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.519
<v Speaker 2>a photography exhibit called Cavad and he travels the country

641
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:17.039
<v Speaker 2>doing beautiful portraits of Holocaust survivors ka v o D.

642
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.679
<v Speaker 2>It's called Cavad Ensuring dignity. A lot of the money.

643
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:25.719
<v Speaker 2>He also raises money to help individuals who are living

644
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:30.679
<v Speaker 2>in and you know, who are in need. But he

645
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.639
<v Speaker 2>has a survivor gallery ko v o d is kavad

646
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Insharing dignity, and I'm going to introduce you because I

647
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.199
<v Speaker 2>think would be a beautiful portrait they do. This is

648
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:43.400
<v Speaker 2>out of their heart, their goodness of their heart. So

649
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:46.599
<v Speaker 2>I do that and make sure you have it because

650
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I think you know, first of all, this book is

651
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.000
<v Speaker 2>a lesson that I think many should be reading in schools.

652
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:55.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious why you called it bending towards the Sun.

653
00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:01.880
<v Speaker 5>Well, when I was interguing my mom for the book

654
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.280
<v Speaker 5>and we were talking about the times that she was

655
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.920
<v Speaker 5>the first time she went through a very serious depression

656
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:14.079
<v Speaker 5>was when she graduated from high school and she was

657
00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:18.360
<v Speaker 5>living in Chicago. Her friends were moving on to go

658
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:21.760
<v Speaker 5>to college, to get jobs, to get married, and my

659
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:27.440
<v Speaker 5>mom just felt sad, horribly sad, and she decided that

660
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.760
<v Speaker 5>she needed help. Her father said, you're not crazy, you

661
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:34.800
<v Speaker 5>don't need to you don't need to go to a psychiatrist,

662
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:38.880
<v Speaker 5>but she knew she did, so she found a therapist,

663
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:43.400
<v Speaker 5>and little by little she started to feel better.

664
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.920
<v Speaker 3>She told me that she noticed that flowers again.

665
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:50.360
<v Speaker 5>Had colors, that leaves were green. She said, I felt

666
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:54.639
<v Speaker 5>myself bending towards the sun, and it seemed like such

667
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:59.920
<v Speaker 5>a hopeful expression, such a beautiful way of describing how

668
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:06.000
<v Speaker 5>one could feel so devastatingly horrible and then start to

669
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:06.599
<v Speaker 5>feel better.

670
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.199
<v Speaker 3>So we just thought that's a great title for the book.

671
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.239
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a beautiful title. And also just when

672
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, I remember when there was a little window

673
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.559
<v Speaker 2>in the attic, a little window in the attic, the

674
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:21.000
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to look at the sunlight going out, that it

675
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:22.880
<v Speaker 2>was a sign of hope, just to be able to

676
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 2>see out. Yeah, I saw it that way. I mean

677
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 2>it's I thought of a sunflower and just opening up.

678
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.440
<v Speaker 3>We didn't get we couldn't get near the window because

679
00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:41.639
<v Speaker 3>there was there were just stuff outside. Yeah, all kinds

680
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:49.280
<v Speaker 3>of different provisions. You know, they have booth so we

681
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:50.840
<v Speaker 3>couldn't get near the window.

682
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:54.880
<v Speaker 2>That struck me too, because it reminded me of a

683
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:57.559
<v Speaker 2>movie I saw where the mother and her child were

684
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 2>trapped in a room and there were that light. That

685
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.119
<v Speaker 2>window was the only thing they could see. I couldn't

686
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.960
<v Speaker 2>imagine not even being able to look outside. But that

687
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.800
<v Speaker 2>bending towards the sun is like a sign of you know,

688
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.039
<v Speaker 2>hope and redemption and also a bit of shedding a

689
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:18.000
<v Speaker 2>light on what happens and sharing it because you always

690
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 2>want to share a light. So there's a lot of

691
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:23.000
<v Speaker 2>meaning in it. In the title, I thought it was

692
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:23.760
<v Speaker 2>a great title.

693
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Thank Yeah.

694
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.119
<v Speaker 5>We think there are a lot of hopeful stories in

695
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:34.239
<v Speaker 5>the Holocaust, a lot of important stories, which is why

696
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:39.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, we wanted to tell the story. Yeah, you know,

697
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:43.199
<v Speaker 5>for example, one of the things that we noticed is

698
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.159
<v Speaker 5>the Groholski family did help my mother's family, and because

699
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.920
<v Speaker 5>of that.

700
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.039
<v Speaker 3>So many people are alive today.

701
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.679
<v Speaker 5>And we want, we always want to encourage people to

702
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.519
<v Speaker 5>be upstanders rather than bystanders. And when we talk about

703
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:02.440
<v Speaker 5>our book, we asked people to talk about who were

704
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.199
<v Speaker 5>the upstanders in the story, who were the people who

705
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:08.159
<v Speaker 5>affirmatively did something and really.

706
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.639
<v Speaker 3>You know, encourage people to do that in the world today.

707
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.039
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a really good point.

708
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:18.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we did answer the hosted name into the into yet,

709
00:45:18.679 --> 00:45:25.920
<v Speaker 3>but in Israel for yes, for for helping us, so

710
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:27.800
<v Speaker 3>they're they're well known.

711
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:33.480
<v Speaker 5>Sasha khok is noted as a righteous gentile for helping

712
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:34.519
<v Speaker 5>Jewish people.

713
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 2>That's very nice. That's very nice. That's very nice. I

714
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.599
<v Speaker 2>mean what they did really was heroic because they risk

715
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:45.639
<v Speaker 2>their lives to save your family's lives.

716
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:46.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah.

717
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.239
<v Speaker 2>And if people don't take that effort and make that,

718
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:53.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, you can't turn the blind eye.

719
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:57.400
<v Speaker 5>No, and and thousands and thousands of people survived because

720
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:02.360
<v Speaker 5>some people, actually four percent of people in Poland took

721
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:06.119
<v Speaker 5>in Jewish people, so you know, there were people who

722
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.800
<v Speaker 5>were upstanders. And you know, the other kind of corollary

723
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:13.559
<v Speaker 5>to that is, no one took a human being in

724
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:15.719
<v Speaker 5>and thought they were going to take them in for

725
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:21.840
<v Speaker 5>two years. People start out, you know, being heroes. Heroes

726
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.599
<v Speaker 5>are ordinary people. They're just people like you and me.

727
00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:28.880
<v Speaker 6>But one day they decide to do something good, like

728
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:33.199
<v Speaker 6>maybe hide someone for a night, and then sometimes that

729
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:35.559
<v Speaker 6>makes them feel better about themselves and it leads to

730
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:37.119
<v Speaker 6>two nights or three nights.

731
00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:40.639
<v Speaker 3>But it was all before, it was all before my

732
00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:44.519
<v Speaker 3>grandfather helped him in many ways.

733
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.679
<v Speaker 2>So one good deed can you know, lead to others,

734
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:51.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, never you know, And I think that's really

735
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:55.519
<v Speaker 2>really important. Again, I'm looking at this Julius os quote

736
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:58.519
<v Speaker 2>and it says, worship God not alone by forms and ceremonies,

737
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.280
<v Speaker 2>but by a virtuous life, by the practice of charity

738
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 2>and benevolence. This is my religion. And my mother always

739
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:10.119
<v Speaker 2>said she believes in do unto others, not as they

740
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:12.519
<v Speaker 2>would do unto you, but just do unto others, don't

741
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:16.519
<v Speaker 2>ask anything in return. And I think that's important. Yeah,

742
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I think that's important in faith, doing to others, not

743
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:20.800
<v Speaker 2>as they would do unto you, but just do unto others.

744
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:27.639
<v Speaker 2>And you know, good will always out live an outlast evil.

745
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.719
<v Speaker 2>And I think this is a great example because they

746
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:34.760
<v Speaker 2>took you in, they risked their lives, you survived, and

747
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:38.079
<v Speaker 2>you've come out and had this amazing life here. You

748
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:41.800
<v Speaker 2>were accepted the United States, which is great, and your

749
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:45.599
<v Speaker 2>family has thrived and and you you're still here to

750
00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:47.760
<v Speaker 2>tell this amazing story. It's just incredible.

751
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 5>One other piece of that is that and it ties

752
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:57.639
<v Speaker 5>into my mom, you know, who just has repeated that

753
00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:02.039
<v Speaker 5>her grandfather's family, you know, helped and Roolski. But one lesson,

754
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:06.079
<v Speaker 5>actually President Bell Clinton mentioned it initially at a press

755
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.159
<v Speaker 5>conference where a reporter said, what advice would you give

756
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:11.719
<v Speaker 5>my twelve year old son to make the world better?

757
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.960
<v Speaker 5>And President Clinton said, tell him to get to know

758
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.719
<v Speaker 5>as many people as he can his age who are

759
00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:23.079
<v Speaker 5>different from him. And it turned out that even in

760
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 5>the Holocaust, Jewish people who are more assimilated who knew

761
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 5>non Jewish people were more likely to be helped.

762
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:32.119
<v Speaker 3>And we know.

763
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:35.760
<v Speaker 5>Today that when people meet people different from themselves, that's

764
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:40.920
<v Speaker 5>what breaks down prejudice. And you know, even in the Holocaust.

765
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:42.480
<v Speaker 3>German people would say, oh, yeah, the Jewish.

766
00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:44.719
<v Speaker 5>People, they're horrible, they're this, they're that, except for the

767
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.119
<v Speaker 5>one who lives next door to me, like he's a

768
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.119
<v Speaker 5>good person. And so I think we all have to

769
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:51.920
<v Speaker 5>go out of our way a little bit to meet

770
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:55.840
<v Speaker 5>people who are, you know, different from ourselves.

771
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I agree. I think that's really important in and I

772
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:04.079
<v Speaker 2>know that's how I was brought up, and it makes

773
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.119
<v Speaker 2>me a more accepting and curious people and inspires me

774
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:09.280
<v Speaker 2>every day. I want to thank both of you for

775
00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:11.039
<v Speaker 2>joining me today. We've come to the end of the

776
00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:14.440
<v Speaker 2>show again. We've been speaking with readA Laurie and Leslie

777
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.239
<v Speaker 2>Gilbert Laurie. I love how you added the name after

778
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:21.159
<v Speaker 2>your married name, and it was a beautiful tribute. The

779
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.199
<v Speaker 2>book again is Bending Towards the Sun, a mother and

780
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 2>daughter memoir. It came out in two thousand and nine

781
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:31.559
<v Speaker 2>by HarperCollins and now has an audible version which is

782
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:34.960
<v Speaker 2>narrated by you. Leslie and voice artist. Be out to

783
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Posniac right, be out to Posniac. So I encourage everybody

784
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.199
<v Speaker 2>to read it. I also encourage you to give it

785
00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:47.360
<v Speaker 2>to children of a certain age or young adults to read,

786
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:51.440
<v Speaker 2>because I think it's important to continue sharing the message

787
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that we can't have hate in our world. We have

788
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:59.239
<v Speaker 2>to have benevolence and kindness. Thank thank you for joining me,

789
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.199
<v Speaker 2>and of course I hope you know you share this show.

790
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:05.920
<v Speaker 2>And my message to everyone is that despite whatever hardship

791
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:08.719
<v Speaker 2>you're going through and hurdles, you have the right and

792
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.360
<v Speaker 2>the choice to make the decision to say I want

793
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:13.400
<v Speaker 2>to live life on my terms and be the change

794
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:16.320
<v Speaker 2>you want to be and yourself and the people around

795
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:20.719
<v Speaker 2>you and your community. So just remember stay fearless and fabulous.

796
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you very much.

797
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:23.679
<v Speaker 3>Tell me again your.

798
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Name Melanie Young, Melanie, Yes, I am your host, Melanie Young. Fearless, fabulous,

799
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Melanie Young.

800
00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:38.000
<v Speaker 5>Okay, thanks so much, Melanie, Thank you my pleasure.

801
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:47.480
<v Speaker 3>Bye, mom and daughter, Okay bye.

802
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:01.239
<v Speaker 2>You ought to