WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.240 In today's episode, we look at why farmers in Rajasthan 2 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:07.759 are challenging the GI tags granted to Unja Jira and 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:12.359 Unja Fenel. We also talk about a proposed railway expansion 4 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.399 through the Sathpuda mail Card Tiger landscape, where questions remain 5 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.359 over its impact on a crucial wildlife corridor. But first 6 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.079 we talk about India's decision to keep the Indus Waters 7 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.640 Treaty with Pakistan on hold and how that has moved 8 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:31.440 one of the world's most important water sharing agreements into 9 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:39.000 one of its most uncertain phases. Hi am Atchasharma and 10 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:43.560 you're listening to three Things the Indian Express new show. 11 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:51.159 The Indus Water Treaty, signed in nineteen sixty has often 12 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:55.159 been described as a rare success in India Pakistan relations 13 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.640 because it has survived repeated conflicts. But India is now 14 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.320 our that the pact can no longer be treated as 15 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:07.840 a static arrangement because the ground realities have changed sharply. 16 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:14.319 So India has put the Indus Waters Treaty in abeyance, 17 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:19.840 which basically means that India says that we are no 18 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.840 longer bound by the provisions of this treaty and this 19 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:27.359 happened after the Pehlgam terrorist attack last year. 20 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:32.200 That's the Indian Express is Amatav Senha who reports on environment, 21 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:34.159 climate change and water for the. 22 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.599 Newspaper, and even before that, and our listeners would probably 23 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:42.640 remember that a similar sort of a situation had arisen 24 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.480 in twenty sixteen after the terrorist attack in Uri, and 25 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.319 at that time Prime Minister and Aranromodi had made that 26 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:56.719 famous statement saying kun or panisatsat nehibehengi, no blood and 27 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:01.879 water cannot flow together. So that twenty sixteen is actually 28 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:06.879 the start of the present sort of imbroglio that we 29 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.840 see on Indus Waters Treaty, which has continued till now. 30 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:14.879 So it's been ten years now that twenty sixteen event 31 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.360 had happened and India had decided to use Indus Waters 32 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.199 Treaty as some sort of leverage, which we had not 33 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:24.599 done earlier. 34 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.840 Now that's central to understanding why this treaty lasted as 35 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:30.759 long as it did. 36 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.879 One of the main reasons why it has survived so 37 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:40.120 long is the fact that under the treaty, because India 38 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:43.680 is the upper Ryparian state, most of the obligations and 39 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:48.319 the responsibilities are on India and not on Pakistan. So 40 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:52.840 it was India's responsibility to allow the waters to flow, 41 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.759 not to disrupt the flow, not to change the floor, 42 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:00.520 not to do anything which sort of is errupts the 43 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.080 flow down to Pakistan. 44 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:03.000 And that's natural. 45 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:07.360 That would always be the responsibility of the Upper Riparian state. 46 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:12.120 So the main reason why the treaty has continued for 47 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.919 so long and it's been a success is the fact 48 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:20.039 that India actually abided by the provisions of the treaty 49 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:24.719 in good faith despite the provocations from Pakistan. And this 50 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.280 is not very well appreciated when this point is made 51 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.719 that the treaty has survived wars and tensions and terrorist attacks. 52 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:38.159 It has survived because India continued to abide by the 53 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:42.800 Indus Waters Treaty and did not disrupt it at any 54 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:47.360 point of time, despite all the provocations that happened from 55 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.280 Pakistani side regarding terrorist attacks and wars. 56 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.520 Amatap says that the treaty divides the Indus Basin rivers 57 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:59.840 in an unusual way. The western rivers Indus Jalam Chaina 58 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.759 are for Pakistan's use. India has to let their waters 59 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:06.719 flow into Pakistan, though it can use some of the 60 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:11.120 water for irrigation and hydro power under certain conditions. On 61 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:15.360 the other hand, the eastern rivers, the sutlerge Brs and 62 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.000 Ravi are allocated to India, though Pakistan can use whatever 63 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.360 water from these rivers that flows into its territory. This 64 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.600 structure is also why the treaty has been described by 65 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:31.000 experts not as a normal sharing arrangement. Because most water 66 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:35.879 sharing treaties allocate volumes or percentages of flow. The Indus 67 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:40.000 Waters Treaty assigns entire rivers to one side or the other. 68 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:43.600 So the Indian argument now is that this model is 69 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:45.879 too rigid for the present moment. 70 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:51.199 Because there are official reasons and there are the actual 71 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.560 reasons behind it. The official reason, of course India says 72 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.120 that the ground situation has changed and there is a 73 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.959 lot of truth in it, and there have been recent 74 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.399 studies as well which point out to the fact that 75 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.199 the situation is drastically different from what it was in 76 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:12.680 the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties and the conditions under 77 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:16.800 which the treaty was negotiated and finalized. That situation no 78 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:20.759 longer exists and we are talking not in security terms 79 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:24.639 but in terms of water demand, in terms of the 80 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.480 number of people who are dependent on this water, in 81 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:33.600 terms of the climate change, in terms of new uses 82 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:38.439 of water coming up, so the ground situation has changed completely. 83 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:43.279 And India's point is that look, sixty sixty five years 84 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:48.040 is a long time to review a water sharing arrangement 85 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.839 and let us renegotiate this treaty now. 86 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:55.680 One of the things missing from the treaty is groundwater. 87 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.920 Even though aquifiers, which are basically an underground layer of 88 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:05.319 permeable rock or gravel that store and transmit groundwater, do 89 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.439 not follow political borders. 90 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.959 So a lot of these modern water sharing arrangements they 91 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:17.399 do take into account groundwater resources as well. Because groundwater 92 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.439 resources are also transboundary, they have an effect. They are 93 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:24.360 very directly related to the surface waters. In fact, they 94 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.720 form the same system. So in this water's treaty talks 95 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:30.680 only about surface waters and not about the groundwaters. There 96 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.360 are lots of other things that a modern water sharing 97 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:38.759 treaty would have, for example, environmental flows, for example, pollution 98 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.000 load and some of these things even Pakistan, especially on 99 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.720 what can be dumped into a river and not those 100 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:49.000 kind of things that even Pakistan has raised concerns about 101 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.399 in the past. So a modern water sharing agreement would 102 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.920 be very different from what the Indus Waters Treaty is 103 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.879 because new techniques have come up, new methods for collaborative 104 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.040 you know, water management systems, they have come up. There 105 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:08.759 is new technology that have come up. So if we 106 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.279 have a newer treaty, which is what India is making 107 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.439 an argument for, then we can go in for a 108 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.360 very different sort of a more modern and more efficient 109 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:22.319 water management system in this basin. 110 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.360 But Amatab says climate is only one part of the problem. 111 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.279 Now we mentioned the fact that this current situation can 112 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:35.600 be traced back to the twenty sixteen event, the attack 113 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.040 in Uri and the Prime Minister's statement. 114 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:39.120 Now, after that. 115 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:43.680 Things seemed to have normalized, but not quite. It was 116 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:48.040 at that point that India realized that the time was 117 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.360 actually up and it was probably you know, the Indus 118 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.879 Waters Treaty should be used as a leverage or not 119 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.120 the treaty itself, but the fact that India was an 120 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:03.360 Upper Raperian state should be used as a leverage. If 121 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:08.879 Pakistan continues to support cross bowder terrorism or to send 122 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.360 terrorists into the Indian side or carry out terrorists strikes 123 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:13.839 in India. 124 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:19.360 India has formally issued notices to Pakistan seeking modification or 125 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:23.759 renegotiation of the treaty, but Pakistan has still not responded 126 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.879 to India's notices, even though it has made strong public statements, 127 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.519 organized and international conference on the treaty and warned of 128 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:34.639 consequences if river flows are disrupted. 129 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.159 So Pakistan has not responded to this specific request about 130 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.960 renegotiating the treaty. But it is not that there has 131 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.440 been no communication between the two countries. In fact, there 132 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:52.559 have been multiple communications, mostly about the sharing of data. Now, 133 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.960 as our listeners would know, under the Indus Waters Treaty, 134 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.440 there was a permanent mechanism that was set up called 135 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:03.159 the Permanent Indus Commission, and there used to be an 136 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.440 Indus Commissioner in both the countries who used to meet 137 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.320 every year to oversee the implementation of the treaty and 138 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:13.480 also share data. 139 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:18.360 Since India put the Treaty in abeyance, the Permanent Indus 140 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:23.840 Commission has effectively stopped functioning from India's perspective. However, communication 141 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.480 between the two countries has not completely stopped. India has 142 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:31.279 continued to share some water related data with Pakistan through 143 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.919 diplomatic channels, including the Indian High Commission in Islamabad. This 144 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:40.200 is especially done when heavy rainfall or high river flows 145 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.960 could require warnings. But this is no longer happening through 146 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:47.720 the treaty's regular system, so the flow of information is 147 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.639 not as regular or systematic as it was before. Now. 148 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:55.440 Another issue that Amitab highlights is institutional design. 149 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.360 Now there are lots of water sharing treaty across the world, 150 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.679 over eight hundred I think treaties. They exist across the 151 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.720 world on a cross boundary water sharing and a lot 152 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:13.320 of them, at least the ones that have been negotiated 153 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.360 in modern times in the last couple of decades to 154 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.000 three four decades, or even the ones that were done earlier. 155 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:25.360 Most of them have in built clauses to review the 156 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.519 working of the treaty after a certain period or have 157 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:34.039 some other mechanisms in which allows the participating countries to 158 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:38.759 have a relook at the treaty and amend the provisions 159 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.639 as needed. Because water sharing and the amount of water 160 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:47.759 flowing rivers is not constant, it keeps changing with time, 161 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:51.919 and in a lot of similar kind of treaties around 162 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.639 the world, there are inbuilt provisions to have a review 163 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.120 after a certain period of time. The Indus Waters Treaty 164 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.960 does not have that, and though there are things that 165 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.799 can be done with the consent of the two countries, 166 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:10.080 but there is no sort of inbuilt review mechanism after 167 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:14.080 a certain time period as there is in India's other 168 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.360 water sharing agreement, the one that it has with Bangladesh, 169 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:21.840 for example, over the Ganga River. No, India and Bangladesh 170 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:26.159 have shared fifty four rivers between them, there is a treaty, 171 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.080 a water sharing agreement only on one of them, that 172 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.639 is the Ganga River. And that Ganga River treaty that 173 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.080 happened in nineteen ninety six, and it has an inbuilt 174 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.360 mechanism which says we'll review the treaty after thirty years. 175 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.159 So this year, the Ganga Waters Treaty with Bangladesh is 176 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.240 coming to an end and it is up for review, 177 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:47.720 and a lot of others also have it. So Indus 178 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.840 did not have it. And what India is saying is, look, 179 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.799 the ground conditions have changed and therefore let's renegotiate the treaty. 180 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.759 And so the deeper question is what renegosi actually means here. 181 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.200 Okay, So let's be very clear here. When India is 182 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:10.000 talking about renegotiation of the treaty. It is actually talking 183 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.240 about a completely new treaty. It's not about amending the 184 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:17.759 provisions of the Indus Waters Treaty. Now, these are the 185 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.039 kind of things that India will not say on record 186 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:25.200 and its official briefings and all. But it's very clear 187 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:28.559 that as far as India is concerned, and if we 188 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.240 just drop our editorial precautions also for a second, what 189 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.320 the current position means is that the Indus Waters Treaty 190 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.759 is dead, at least as far as India is concerned. 191 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:44.799 Number two, this is something An entirely new treaty is 192 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.360 something that is going to be very difficult for Pakistan 193 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.039 to accept. In fact, it would be unacceptable to Pakistan 194 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:58.120 because even as it routinely complains about the treaty being 195 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:02.080 unfair to it, the fact is that even Pakistan realizes 196 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.840 that this is a very good arrangement that it got 197 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:09.080 and this is the best that it can ever have 198 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.600 have and any future water sharing arrangement or a treaty 199 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.519 with India probably would not be as good as the 200 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.080 current provisions of Indus Waters Treaty is. So, if the 201 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.120 talk is about a new treaty, which is what India. 202 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:32.080 Means now it would almost be completely unacceptable to Pakistan. 203 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.480 An Amatam say is India's push for any new arrangement 204 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:39.519 would be for one that is strictly bilateral. 205 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.240 As our listeners would know, the current Indus Waters Treaty 206 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.759 has a third party as well, the World Bank, which 207 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:52.240 facilitated the negotiations and which is the guaranteer of the treaty, 208 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:57.720 which is also sort of a facilitator in a dispute resolution. 209 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.879 So India would want any few treaty as a strictly 210 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:07.159 bilateral treaty against something that Pakistan would find it very, 211 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:12.080 very difficult to accept. Pakistan always finds comfort in the 212 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:16.080 fact that there is a third party involved to deal 213 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:19.600 with its relations with India, So any future treaty that 214 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.320 is going to be strictly bilateral would be difficult for 215 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:27.159 Pakistan to accept. So this is the situation as of now, 216 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:32.000 and it seems again dropping the precautions for a second, 217 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.720 as it seems that the Indus Waters Treaty one would 218 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.000 never be back to its original state as we had 219 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.879 seen a couple of years ago, and even a new 220 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.759 treaty might not be there to replace it. 221 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.480 So what that means is that we will remain in 222 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:53.799 the current situation where the two sides continue to share 223 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:58.519 river water without a formal agreement. But Amitav says this 224 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.519 is not unusual at. 225 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.240 There are hundreds of rivers which are shared across countries, 226 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.000 which flow across boundaries of countries over which there are 227 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.360 no water sharing arrangements. A very good case in point 228 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:16.120 is the transboundary rivers between India and China. We do 229 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.279 not have a proper treaty over water sharing of these 230 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.759 rivers over Brahmaputray and other rivers, even though we coordinate 231 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.240 and we share data with each other, but we do 232 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.960 not have a water sharing agreement. Similarly, as we mentioned 233 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.720 earlier with Bangladesh, we have an agreement only on Ganga, 234 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.200 whereas there are a lot many other rivers that flow 235 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.399 between the two countries. So it's not an unusual situation 236 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:45.000 wherein the river waters continue to flow across the two 237 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:49.360 countries without the two countries having a formal water sharing arrangement. 238 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:55.120 Now, another question that arises is what if Pakistan agrees 239 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:56.159 to renegotiate. 240 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.000 So even if let's say tomorrow Pakistan comes back and 241 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:04.519 says okay, let's renegotiate. You made the offer, we accept it. 242 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.080 The renegotiation is unlikely to begin anytime soon. Firstly because 243 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.919 India's decision to hold the treaty in a byans is 244 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:20.399 contingent on Pakistan stopping its support for cross border terrorism. Now, 245 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:25.360 if that happens overnight, that Pakistan, you know, stops supporting terrorism, 246 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.240 that would be a miracle, you know, So that's unlikely 247 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.879 to happen. So you know, this decision is not going 248 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:35.120 anywhere as unlikely to be changed. But even if supposing, 249 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.399 you know, a miracle happens, and you know, Pakistan stops 250 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.039 supporting cross border terrorism, as to the satisfaction of the 251 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.960 Indian side, even then, you know, India right now is 252 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.039 more concerned with finishing a lot of projects in Jerman Kashmir, 253 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:57.600 which had been held up for years because of Pakistan's 254 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.600 repeated objections in working the clauses of the Indus Waters Treaty. 255 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.400 And now because we no longer consider ourselves bound by 256 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:09.839 the provisions of Induswater's Treaty, we are going ahead in 257 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.559 completing those projects, and there are at least eight projects 258 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.640 that are under construction right now. We would ideally like 259 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.359 to finish them, all of them in the next three 260 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:24.519 to four years and till that time as these projects 261 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:29.200 are completed. Frankly, we are not even interested in having 262 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.039 a new treaty in place. Primary concern is to somehow 263 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.160 get those projects completed in the next three to four years. 264 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.240 There is an investment of almost topia fifty thousand corod 265 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.640 that has been involved in this and we would like 266 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:45.680 to get that completed first. 267 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.200 And next we talk about the problem that farmers from 268 00:17:54.279 --> 00:18:00.079 Rajasthan have with a particular GI or Geographical Indication tag, 269 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.559 this time awarded by the Geographical Indications Registry is given 270 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.000 to products that come from a specific geographical region and 271 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.440 have unique characteristics or qualities. This essentially works like a 272 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.839 trademark in the international market. Think of tea from dadgelaying 273 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:21.200 apples from kinnor silk from Mysore or Majuli masks from Asam. 274 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:25.039 All of these have received GI tags. The idea is 275 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.720 to protect the interests of local growers and artisans by 276 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:34.000 preventing imitation and unauthorized sales of these products. Now recently, 277 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.359 the Unja region in Gujarat's Mesana District received a GI 278 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.079 tag in the name of the agricultural produced Market Committee. 279 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.759 The tag is for the region's Jira andsoft cuman and 280 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.440 fennel seeds, but farmers in the neighboring state of Rajasthan 281 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.440 are unhappy with this GI tag. They argue that Unja 282 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.319 is primarily a marketing center rather than a production hub 283 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:01.799 for these two major seed spices. Further understand their argument 284 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.079 and what impact it could have on the sale of 285 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.960 their produce, Michael Aharaka Nanda speaks to the indiet Expresses 286 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:09.480 Rural Affairs editor. 287 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.880 So Haj what is this dispute over GI tags for 288 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:18.079 Unja Jira and Unja Fenil. 289 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.960 And why are Rajasthans farmers opposing them? 290 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.400 So, the entire problem comes from the fact that Unja 291 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.960 doesn't seem to be a big place of production of 292 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:33.039 either Jura or either Jira or for that matter, Jira 293 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.799 is basically cuman seed and or off of that matter, 294 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.960 storms which is basically final. So Unja is known as 295 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.599 a place of marketing. It's probably the world's biggest market 296 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.079 for these seeds sprices. This is probably one of the 297 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:50.160 first cases where produce, you know, GI is being given 298 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.359 to a produce not from where it has grown, but 299 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.119 from but where it is marketed and it is definitely 300 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.799 being marketed in a very big way, There's no doubt 301 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.440 about it, you know. And I think that is where 302 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.200 the farmers from Rajasthan have raised an objection. There is 303 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.160 also a second problem, which according to me, seems to 304 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.400 be more authentic. You know. See, it's crucible that you know, 305 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:17.000 jira cultivation originated in Unja and the nearby areas. You know, 306 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.400 so when we say Unja and the nearby areas, it 307 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:24.680 would mean Meisana district, Okay. But in this case, what 308 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.960 they have done is, you know, they've applied for the 309 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.720 GI and this GA covers almost half of Gujarat. You know, 310 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.680 it's not just Messana district. You know, Unja is in 311 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.759 Nassana district. It also includes you know nearby districts you know, Banas, 312 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.720 Contact Patan, Gadhima there and goes all the way to Cutch. More. 313 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:47.160 We which seems a little real problem. So what farmers 314 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.519 in Rajasthan are saying that there are many parts in 315 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.160 Rajasthan where we are growing jira and songs and which 316 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:59.039 are closer to Unja market than absolutely distant places within 317 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.160 Gujarat and Arish. 318 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.920 Who grants these GI tags is there any specific organization 319 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:05.680 for this task. 320 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.960 Ideally, when you grant a geographical indication, you know, they 321 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.519 should be some validation from a third party, from a 322 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.000 third party which is independent, you know and has the 323 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:22.119 domain expertise. Whereas here, I think the validation they have 324 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.599 taken from you know, entirely institutions within Gujarat, like for example, 325 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.119 the Dantewada Agricultural University in Barnas contacts and the Directorate 326 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:35.160 of Horticulture Environment of Gujarat, you know, and then Entrepreneurship 327 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:38.680 Development Institute of India, you know, Gujarat. So when the 328 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.960 GI Registry in Jena, which is at all an all 329 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.599 India organization, when they grant the geographical indication, they should 330 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:50.599 be looking at, you know, who is authenticating all these data, 331 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.599 the information and all these things. So ideally, I think 332 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.319 maybe in the case of Unja Jira and Unja songs, 333 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.039 you know, to show that this is very unique, you know, 334 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:04.160 it's not grown anywhere. It is indigenous, So maybe we 335 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.799 should have taken the opinion of saying an institution like 336 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.279 the ICA, you know, the Indian Council for agul Cultural Research, 337 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.720 so ICR has even an institute you know, it's called 338 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.160 the National Research Center on Seat Spicies, which is a 339 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.839 nudgemir you know, so some kind of a third party 340 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.359 certification is required. You know. See, ultimately, when we are 341 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.319 giving out a GI for anything, the world has to 342 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.000 respect it, right, the world has to say, hey, okay, 343 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:34.119 ounda gira blasma TV dazzling tea. Yeah, this has been 344 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.200 based on, you know, some kind of an independent validation. 345 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.839 And how does this GI tag impact farmers who are 346 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.880 growing this funnel and human what is its significance? 347 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.319 So I think what farmers in Rajasthan are spared is 348 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.240 that next time when they go to sell you know, 349 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.240 gira or some their prices will be beaten down. See 350 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.440 what does a GI do. GI basically confers a premium 351 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.480 to the produce of a particular region. Right, so the 352 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:04.279 farmer is scared that, you know, the traders will say, no, 353 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.279 you're a Gira is not Unja gira. It is basically 354 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.240 Rajasthan gira. 355 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:08.519 You know. 356 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.240 So farmers are afraid that they'll be a marking down 357 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:14.880 when it comes to the price. You know. So farmers 358 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.400 are definitely worried that they produce will be discounted. Whereas 359 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.119 any gra which has grown in any part of Gujarat, 360 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.880 you know, very wide GI area within that will fetch 361 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:28.920 a premium. Why are we granting GI? We are granting 362 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.400 GI so that the producers of something, you know, which 363 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:35.599 is unique, they are able to fetch a premium right 364 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:39.079 when they sell, whether in the domestic market or in 365 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.480 the world market. Right like Scott's whisky will always command 366 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:45.960 a premium over regular whiskey, even if it is a 367 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.839 single mold whiskey. Right. So, since everything ultimately has to 368 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.519 do with valuation, you know, see, a trademark brand GI 369 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:58.359 always ultimately is what it is, basically fetching you a premium. Right. 370 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.079 But then what evidence did the unja APMC rely on 371 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.319 to secure these GI registrations. 372 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.799 See, they seem to have submitted a lot of data 373 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:12.079 showing about gira and about sound, but these seem to 374 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.279 be general you know, I don't know whether they have 375 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.200 been able to establish that this Gira is very different 376 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.640 from the gira which is being grown in Rajasthan or 377 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.079 just the adjoining district. You know, So I think again, 378 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.960 you know, even if they have submitted has all this 379 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.880 data and all this information, has it been subject to 380 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:33.480 third party validation? 381 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.960 You know, and how has apm C responded to the objections. 382 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:41.240 So I think the objections have been raised for the 383 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.559 first time through Indian Express, you know, our Indian Express report, 384 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.400 because this GI was granted sometime in March or something, 385 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.400 you know. And then and then I think the trade 386 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.200 in Rajasthan farmers organizations et cetera came to know about 387 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:56.839 this whole thing, you know, because I think it is 388 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.400 even publicized. I think about a month back, you know, 389 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.039 and and I think the Gujura Chief Minister, everybody tweeted 390 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.039 about it, you know, they talked about it. Indiancy says 391 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.400 that the jira cultivation started in Unja only before it 392 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.680 spread to other places, you know. And they're saying that 393 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:16.759 we want the Sunjai area to again start growing jira 394 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:18.759 in a big way, and one way to do it 395 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:22.160 is through the GI claim, you know. And they claim 396 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.480 that you know, now this Gunja jira will give a 397 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.480 huge spurt in for cultivation and that farmers will and 398 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.000 Unja will now become again also a major cultivation center. 399 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:34.240 That's what they are saying. 400 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.279 But if Rajastan produces a significant share of India's cumin 401 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.079