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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your
Speaker 2: host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, the most
Speaker 2: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 2: have written about them. Theatre Bundy was one of the
Speaker 2: more most infamous and flamboy and American sewer killers on record,
Speaker 2: and his story is a complex mix of psychopathology, criminal investigation,
Speaker 2: and the US legal system. This in depth examination of
Speaker 2: Bundy's life and his killing spree that total dozens of
Speaker 2: victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and interviews with
Speaker 2: detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information on several
Speaker 2: murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken
Speaker 2: family background to his execution in the electric chair. My
Speaker 2: special guest this evening is Kevin Sullivan. We're going to
Speaker 2: be discussing the book The Bundy Murders, a Comprehensive History.
Speaker 2: My special guest and journalist and author Kevin Sullivan, Welcome
Speaker 2: to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 2: Kevin Sullivan, Well, thanks Dan, it's.
Speaker 3: Nice talking with you again.
Speaker 6: Well, thanks very much. And I've told the audience that
Speaker 6: we'd have you on, and here you are. We're actually
Speaker 6: going to be talking about ten Budy. For all those
Speaker 6: people that listen in Latin week and suffer through my explanation,
Speaker 6: here is the real deal, Kevin Sullivan talking about Ted Bundy. Now,
Speaker 6: first off, this is always a question I think that
Speaker 6: deserves to be answered by an author. Why did you
Speaker 6: decide to write There have been many books about Ted Bundy,
Speaker 6: best selling books. Why did you decide to write a
Speaker 6: book about Ted Bundy? What did you think you could
Speaker 6: bring to the official record?
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I never dreamed I would write a book
Speaker 3: about Theodore Bundy. Was I knew the case a little bit,
Speaker 3: but I was also aware that a good number of
Speaker 3: books had been written about Ted Bundy. And a friend
Speaker 3: of mine, James Massey, he was employed about probation par
Speaker 3: role here in Kentucky for over twenty years and occasionally
Speaker 3: we would talk about the Bundy case because Jim is
Speaker 3: good friends with retired detective Jerry Thompson out of Utah,
Speaker 3: And for those people who don't know, Thompson is the
Speaker 3: detective who kind of unmasked Bundy when Bundy was arrested.
Speaker 3: Soon after, Bundy was arrested on what they thought was
Speaker 3: suspicion of burglary because of some things he had in
Speaker 3: his car. And then once Bundy came the light in
Speaker 3: connection with the missing and murdered girls in Utah, of course,
Speaker 3: you know, they traced it back home to the murders
Speaker 3: of Washington State, and in the whole world knew. But
Speaker 3: Jim Massey had been friends with Jerry for a good
Speaker 3: number of years, and so in two thousand and five
Speaker 3: I got a call from Jim one night. He said, listen,
Speaker 3: Jerry Thompson and his wife, they're coming to Louisville and
Speaker 3: would you like to have dinner. I said, sure, I
Speaker 3: think that would be great because this would be an
Speaker 3: opportunity to meet a guy that was all a damous case,
Speaker 3: but I never believed anything would come from it. Well,
Speaker 3: when he came to Louisville, he brought head Bundy's murder kid,
Speaker 3: which I knew he had, but we didn't know that
Speaker 3: he was going to bring it to Louisville, but he
Speaker 3: knew Jim wanted to see it. So Jim called me,
Speaker 3: and I got to see this stuff, and Jerry was
Speaker 3: here in Louisville for several days. Jim got to keep
Speaker 3: the bag. I brought it to my house. I got
Speaker 3: to interview Jerry, and he even gave me, and he
Speaker 3: gave Jim also one of the green trash bags from
Speaker 3: Bundy's car that Bundy used to put his victim's clothes
Speaker 3: in these bags, and he would dump the clothes off
Speaker 3: at a location separate from where he put the bodies.
Speaker 3: But anyway, when this occurred, it sparked something in me
Speaker 3: and I thought, well, it's going to translate into an
Speaker 3: article for Snitch. Snitch was a weekly print newspaper that
Speaker 3: at one time was running in five or six states,
Speaker 3: I believe five states, and by two thousand and five
Speaker 3: it was only running editions in Louisville and Lexi in Kentucky.
Speaker 3: But so I wrote an article for Snitch because this
Speaker 3: whole thing was so surreal, bringing the bag to my home,
Speaker 3: putting the stuff out on the dining room table, just
Speaker 3: as Bundy used to carry it into his house, and
Speaker 3: so we photographed that. I wrote an article with Snitch. However,
Speaker 3: that thing that is intrinsic with writers when they get
Speaker 3: interested in something. I just hated to write a book
Speaker 3: about Bundy. And people said, you really don't need to,
Speaker 3: because you know, Bundy's been done quite a bit. But
Speaker 3: there was just that something, an instinct within me, a drive,
Speaker 3: if you will, to just go ahead and push out,
Speaker 3: because I'm I was always very good in in investigating
Speaker 3: kind of things and finding people that were part of
Speaker 3: a story. And and then I've always been good in
Speaker 3: letting my personality shine and they would talk to me.
Speaker 3: So so I'm going to see what's here. Turns out
Speaker 3: that once I got, you know, halfway through the book,
Speaker 3: I was uncovering numerous things that had never been in
Speaker 3: before about these murders, and so the book really developed
Speaker 3: its own unique flavor. And then after I got into it,
Speaker 3: I began to see that most of the books that
Speaker 3: have been written about Ted Bundy were written about people
Speaker 3: that had direct contact with him, and many of those
Speaker 3: were published years and years ago. Some of the more
Speaker 3: recent ones were by attorneys and stuff, but the ones,
Speaker 3: the really main books are like Bob Kepple's Stephen Michau
Speaker 3: and Hugh Hainsworth the only living witness, and I think
Speaker 3: the only books two books that have been written by
Speaker 3: people that didn't note ed my book, The Bundy Murders,
Speaker 3: and then Stephen Wynn and David Merrill's The Killer next Door.
Speaker 3: So everybody else had a connection to Bundy. So you
Speaker 3: know what, when you go into something like that, you're
Speaker 3: not so sure how it's going to turn out. I thought,
Speaker 3: though I can produce a good book, I had absolutely
Speaker 3: no idea how many new things that I would discover
Speaker 3: and how forthright some of these detectives would be. In fact,
Speaker 3: I called William Hagemeyer one day during my research and
Speaker 3: I mentioned the name of a girl that Bundy killed,
Speaker 3: Lynette Culver out of And I don't want to get
Speaker 3: ahead in the story, but I mentioned something to build it.
Speaker 3: Even he didn't know, and Bill sat in with every
Speaker 3: confession Bundy ever made, and yet Bill said, if you
Speaker 3: ever found out, and I'll tell more about this later,
Speaker 3: but he said, if you can confirm what you told me,
Speaker 3: which he had his doubts about it, he said, let
Speaker 3: me know. And I did confirm it later on, and
Speaker 3: then told him why he didn't know it. But we
Speaker 3: can get into that later. But these are the kind
Speaker 3: of things that proved to be somewhat shocking to me
Speaker 3: because I was like a novice then discovering these things.
Speaker 3: And yet here I thought everything about Theodore Bundy has
Speaker 3: been known, and that wasn't the case at all.
Speaker 6: So you basically got into this. You assumed this protict.
Speaker 6: You were interested in doing this book, and it was
Speaker 6: just a gut instinct that you could find something. And
Speaker 6: you were definitely just interested in looking at this case.
Speaker 6: But you must have known that or at least been
Speaker 6: at least been confident there was something new that you
Speaker 6: would discover.
Speaker 3: I felt like it was. It was. It was almost strange.
Speaker 3: It's almost like a gut feeling. You could, you could
Speaker 3: even call it a sixth sense in a way. There
Speaker 3: was Once it was so surreal having that bag come
Speaker 3: into my house, and and once I wrote the article
Speaker 3: for Snitch, I really did think that that would be it.
Speaker 3: But the hunger to learn more just wouldn't go away.
Speaker 3: And something kept saying, and do it, go ahead and
Speaker 3: push forward, And I thought, you know what, maybe there
Speaker 3: are some new things to learn. But I knew that
Speaker 3: as a researcher and as a writer, I could produce
Speaker 3: a book that would be very good. The thing that
Speaker 3: I didn't know and then is that I could produce
Speaker 3: one that had so many new things in it and
Speaker 3: in essence would have a very unique flavor of its own.
Speaker 3: For instance, I think I followed the murders very closely.
Speaker 3: I follow his trail, you know, very closely, and like
Speaker 3: I say, scattered throughout the book or many new aspects
Speaker 3: of this case that had never come out before. And
Speaker 3: I know the fellow the runs the the Wikipedia site
Speaker 3: on Ted Bundy, He's gotten a copy of my book
Speaker 3: and he cites four or five things that I'm assuming
Speaker 3: are not, of course, in the other books. When we
Speaker 3: get into the murder of Lynnette Colbert, basically before my book,
Speaker 3: very little was known about that murder. But I was
Speaker 3: able to dig into it and find out things from
Speaker 3: the people involved in them in the investigation. And again
Speaker 3: that's the case where William Hagma just did not have
Speaker 3: the information, and really there's no reason why he would
Speaker 3: have because it came out in a different way and
Speaker 3: was not in just the regular confession that he attended.
Speaker 3: But again we can get into that later, but these
Speaker 3: are the little unique things that make my book so different.
Speaker 6: Right now, let's go back to Theodore Robert Bundy tell
Speaker 6: us about everyone is yearning for what was the background
Speaker 6: of Ted Bundy, and then they try to make some
Speaker 6: correlation between his early life and this later monstrous acts.
Speaker 6: But at least in this particular case, let's let's go
Speaker 6: back to the As far as you did your research
Speaker 6: about his family life, his upbringing, what is Ted Bright
Speaker 6: Bundy really like?
Speaker 3: Well, Ted Bundy is kind of an enigma. Even when
Speaker 3: you look at his life. From everything that we know,
Speaker 3: we can start to make judgments on when things went
Speaker 3: wrong and perhaps even why. But there's there's there's an
Speaker 3: oddity about his life because the person that developed there.
Speaker 3: If you look at his early life, he had some
Speaker 3: significant problems as a young child. He is his father
Speaker 3: was never married to his mother, Louise. She had had
Speaker 3: an affair I don't know the duration of it, probably
Speaker 3: very short with a man. They believe his name is
Speaker 3: Jack Worthington. He was a sailor that, as I say
Speaker 3: my book, blew in from the Second World War. But
Speaker 3: he didn't have any intention of fathering anything well, these things,
Speaker 3: once Bundy learned them later, they were traumatic to him.
Speaker 3: But the things that he would learn later can't explain
Speaker 3: away some of the odd things from his childhood, because
Speaker 3: we know Louise was exceedingly good to him. Louise loved him,
Speaker 3: just like she loved all the children that came later.
Speaker 3: So it wasn't anything within Leui, and it wasn't anything
Speaker 3: with his stepfather, or not a stepfather, but his adoptive father,
Speaker 3: Johnny Bundy. That's where he gets his name Bundy. So
Speaker 3: it's not anything intrinsic to how they raised him. But
Speaker 3: for example, when they were living in Philadelphia, an area
Speaker 3: of a Philadelphia, and she had gone back home with
Speaker 3: Theodore as a baby, and they stayed there a while,
Speaker 3: and one of Louisa's sisters, his aunt, said that she
Speaker 3: woke up one morning and Theodore had raised the covers
Speaker 3: of her bed and he was placing kitchen knives with
Speaker 3: the tip pointed at her around her body.
Speaker 5: Now, I'm not.
Speaker 3: A psychiatrist and I'm not a psychologist, but I can
Speaker 3: tell you now, for a child to do that unprovoked,
Speaker 3: it speaks of significant damnitage in my mind, and a
Speaker 3: very strange mindset. There's another thing in my book where
Speaker 3: it could be the same aunt or another. She was
Speaker 3: standing at a train station with Ted at about dusk,
Speaker 3: and she said that he almost morphed into something else,
Speaker 3: he transformed into some his personality change, and even though
Speaker 3: he was a child, she said it frightened her. So
Speaker 3: there were some significant things going on with Ted Bundy
Speaker 3: early on. It sounds to me like the fracturing of
Speaker 3: his personality happened early in his life for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: and then when the tough things came along in life,
Speaker 3: things that are genuinely not pleasant, he was not able
Speaker 3: to adapt and roll with the punches, and really things
Speaker 3: got worse, and the way he responded to it early
Speaker 3: on he learned to live with a mask. Okay, he
Speaker 3: became Ted Bundy on the outside to people, and then
Speaker 3: the real person on the inside that he even he
Speaker 3: himself didn't understand. So you have a developing of a
Speaker 3: very odd character. And even though he can't explain it,
Speaker 3: he tried to compensate for it as he grew up,
Speaker 3: presenting certain masks even though he knew things weren't right
Speaker 3: on the inside. But at the time, this is before
Speaker 3: his predatory years. This is when he knew he was strange,
Speaker 3: but he couldn't explain it. As that predatory personality developed,
Speaker 3: and there were additions of other things in his life,
Speaker 3: particularly sexual things fantasies but not the normal kind, mixed
Speaker 3: with violence against women, as those things came into his
Speaker 3: life that helped him build this predatory personality that he had,
Speaker 3: which of course ultimately.
Speaker 6: Led the murder. Now let's talk about because as you
Speaker 6: talk about us, you know we're not psychologists, but certainly
Speaker 6: we have heard stories where psychologists make conclusions, obviously psychological
Speaker 6: conclusions on what happened in this case Ted Bundy's life. Now,
Speaker 6: a couple I think important factors to interpret whoever you want,
Speaker 6: is that the person he thought it was a sister,
Speaker 6: he found out discovered that was actually his mother, and
Speaker 6: who he thought his parents were actually his grandparents. Now,
Speaker 6: tell us when this happened and from all the research
Speaker 6: that you particularly did, not necessarily everyone else, But what
Speaker 6: you did was what did you find in terms of
Speaker 6: how traumatic was that event when he did find out,
Speaker 6: and when did he find out, and what were the
Speaker 6: circumstances in him being that information being revealed to him?
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, that's a very good question. Actually it's actually
Speaker 3: two questions. First of all, the Bundie family years ago
Speaker 3: cut themselves off from anything having to do with the media.
Speaker 3: I never was able to ascertain.
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Speaker 3: Exactly when Louise Bundy said, well, I'm not your aunt,
Speaker 3: I'm your mother. May have been younger than later, but
Speaker 3: she hid from him a long time that he was illegitimate. Okay,
Speaker 3: because I don't think he found out he was illegitimate
Speaker 3: until he was much much older when he found the
Speaker 3: birth certificate. And there's even two stories floating around about
Speaker 3: that I believe, and I covered this in the book,
Speaker 3: but I think one is he just discovered it on
Speaker 3: his own, or he got into a verbal argument with
Speaker 3: his cousin, and his cousin had he had knowledge of
Speaker 3: this right, and then he said something and then ted
Speaker 3: went and looked it up and then basically kind of
Speaker 3: internally came unglued. Now I'm not sure. I was never
Speaker 3: able to ascertain when he learned that his mother was
Speaker 3: actually his mother. I think he learned that pretty early on.
Speaker 3: I think so, but I can't prove that. But I
Speaker 3: do know that at the illegitimate aspect, he didn't know
Speaker 3: until later. And that's one of the things I was
Speaker 3: talking about. It's never a nice thing or a pleasant
Speaker 3: thing to learn that your father took off. But if
Speaker 3: you have a normal personality, you can adapt. These are
Speaker 3: the things that he could not handle, and it created
Speaker 3: significant rage in him, which was recorded later on by
Speaker 3: some people who were doing studies of him or you know,
Speaker 3: writing court reports and stuff. Things would come.
Speaker 6: Out and.
Speaker 3: So these things didn't just simmer in Bundy, and he
Speaker 3: couldn't he couldn't turn them loose. In fact, his friends
Speaker 3: would say things looks like dead, being illegitimate. It's just
Speaker 3: not that big a deal. Because these guys who were
Speaker 3: his friends are thinking, what difference does it make. You've
Speaker 3: got parents that love you, even though you have problems
Speaker 3: with your adoptive. Your mother loves you and your adoptive
Speaker 3: father loves you. I mean, your life is moving on.
Speaker 3: That big a deal. But to Ted it was see
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, and so they festered. These things festered
Speaker 3: within him.
Speaker 6: Now to add to this another very traumatic event, and
Speaker 6: this is recorded in probably every book that I've or
Speaker 6: every bit of information that I've seen, is that he
Speaker 6: has a particular relationship with a woman. He really puts
Speaker 6: her up on a pedestal. Like I mentioned last night,
Speaker 6: he really respects her achievement, her family status, her wealth.
Speaker 6: This is the kind of person he aspires to. And
Speaker 6: it is almost almost like the Great Expectations story where
Speaker 6: he really he really doesn't fit in and that's one
Speaker 6: of his fears of being discovered in that way, and
Speaker 6: his biggest fear comes true. She rejects him. He's just
Speaker 6: not marriage material. His ambition and his desire and his potential,
Speaker 6: just not enough tell us about this woman and his effect,
Speaker 6: and also that the talk of these similarity in looks
Speaker 6: characteristic wise the looks of a further victim. So tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about both those.
Speaker 3: Things, please, Okay, I've seen one picture of Diane Edwards.
Speaker 3: That's her real name. There's only a few people in
Speaker 3: the book that I don't use their real name, but
Speaker 3: I gave her another name of the book and put
Speaker 3: the life of me. I can't remember what it is.
Speaker 3: Is been allowed since I've read the book, and god
Speaker 3: knows a few years as I've done the research. But
Speaker 3: her name was Diane Edwards. I've seen one picture of her.
Speaker 3: She was a very very good looking a woman with
Speaker 3: that question, and I'm sure Theodore was a little intimidated
Speaker 3: by that. However, he did like her, and I don't
Speaker 3: know whether he viewed her as a prize or what.
Speaker 3: She also came from a wealthy family in San Francisco,
Speaker 3: and she was in his mind, I believe. And of
Speaker 3: course you got to remember, he's not thinking like you
Speaker 3: were me or or somebody else that you know, if
Speaker 3: you say something to they can relate in a normal way.
Speaker 3: I don't know everything driving him in this relationship. But
Speaker 3: she would be I believe, in his mind, the epitome
Speaker 3: of what the kind of woman he would want right now.
Speaker 3: At the same time, I don't believe that he felt
Speaker 3: like he was up to her status and even and
Speaker 3: this is something that people miss sometimes, even in the
Speaker 3: relationship with her, he could not refrain from some sociopathic
Speaker 3: tendencies even with her, like she used to become irritated.
Speaker 3: So I've been told, and I've seen the reports where
Speaker 3: he would use her credit card without asking. That doesn't
Speaker 3: that doesn't both well. I mean, you know, you ought
Speaker 3: to ask if he's not even married yet, it would
Speaker 3: it would it would both well if you ask your
Speaker 3: girlfriend if you could borrow a credit card. Apparently he
Speaker 3: had done that and she didn't like it. But the
Speaker 3: thing about Diane Edwards was is that And I talked
Speaker 3: to people that had ned Diane in social circles and
Speaker 3: they said she was a very nice lady, very nice looking.
Speaker 3: The guy and one guy told me she's very nice looking,
Speaker 3: and so he you know, and I guess they thought
Speaker 3: that they made a good couple. But but when Ted
Speaker 3: started to have problems later academic because Ted would go
Speaker 3: from doing well academically to maybe not doing so well.
Speaker 3: This and other aspects of him, of her person of
Speaker 3: his personality that she didn't like. She eventually cut the
Speaker 3: relationship off, which really damaged him. And then later and
Speaker 3: we can get into this later he came back and
Speaker 3: won her again right before he started committing murders, at
Speaker 3: least the murders of nineteen seventy four, and he could
Speaker 3: have committed murders pride of them. But in nineteen seventy
Speaker 3: four with delnda Ann Healing murder, that's when he said
Speaker 3: his course, and he said his face to nothing but murder,
Speaker 3: and he was going to keep killing until he was
Speaker 3: called or killed or what have you. He was never
Speaker 3: going to stop, but he would then at a later date,
Speaker 3: right before the murders started, he won her back. But
Speaker 3: then it was not for any other reason other than
Speaker 3: to win in this situation and then redump her. But
Speaker 3: she had a profound effect on his life without question,
Speaker 3: and the similarities of a lot of the women she catch.
Speaker 3: She had long, dark hair parted in the middle right.
Speaker 3: And if you look at photographs like the girl out
Speaker 3: that Carol Durance out of Utah, some of these other women.
Speaker 3: I mean that there are some that are very close
Speaker 3: to what you look like. Others are just a style
Speaker 3: of hair. And I know a lot of people have
Speaker 3: kicked that around. My opinion on this is that he
Speaker 3: did kill a certain type of woman. There was something
Speaker 3: to the women that he chose. And even you know,
Speaker 3: you look at a girl like Susan Rancourt out of
Speaker 3: CWSC in Washington State enter Washington State College, which is
Speaker 3: you know, some distance from like Seattle and his normal
Speaker 3: killing ground. She had long hair part in the middle,
Speaker 3: but hers was more blonder like brown. But yes, there
Speaker 3: was something to the style of hair. He liked killing
Speaker 3: Caucasian girls. And you know, he wouldn't surprise me. We'll
Speaker 3: never know. These are one of the mysteries, but it
Speaker 3: could date back to things with Diane Edwards women in general.
Speaker 3: God knows. He wanted connections with women, normal connections. He
Speaker 3: wanted to destroy women and he wanted to be loved
Speaker 3: by women. That makes any sense at all, He wanted
Speaker 3: both things from them. He wanted women to murder and
Speaker 3: he wanted women who would care about him. But as
Speaker 3: a sociopath, his love vote and his commitment to them
Speaker 3: could only go so far because he was anything but
Speaker 3: normal internally.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the what I have read is almost
Speaker 6: a very simple, I think rudimentary conclusion in that he
Speaker 6: always wanted to be with this woman. She rejected him
Speaker 6: because he wasn't confident, he wasn't successful, he was academically
Speaker 6: not focused. And when he did become involved with the
Speaker 6: Republican Party and when he did get his degree, then
Speaker 6: she felt he was confident enough. And then that's when
Speaker 6: he rejected her. And then when you do see the similarities,
Speaker 6: even just in the hair parted in the middle, just
Speaker 6: the similarities and ages. Yeah, if you watch you know,
Speaker 6: criminal minds, you'd say, oh, here, here's this again, psychology
Speaker 6: one oh one, here's this correlation between destroying whomen look
Speaker 6: like this reminded him of his failure.
Speaker 3: That's you have to considerate because there it is these Listen.
Speaker 3: The interesting thing about the Bundy case, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of mystery attached to it. Despite the stuff that I've
Speaker 3: been able to uncover. It's very unsettling for people to
Speaker 3: view Theodore Bundy with the kind of education he's had,
Speaker 3: how articulate he is, how loving he could be with people.
Speaker 3: It's very difficult in most minds to look at a
Speaker 3: human like that and then look at what he actually
Speaker 3: did when others were not looking. We have a tendency
Speaker 3: to think of pure evil. And I'm just gonna say this.
Speaker 3: You know, maybe people had different views, but full of tattoos.
Speaker 3: I know tattoos are popular now, but it used to
Speaker 3: be only people in prison. You can almost cage how
Speaker 3: many years they've done by how many tattoos. That's not
Speaker 3: the way it is now. But you know, the type
Speaker 3: of person that I'm talking about, where if you're they're
Speaker 3: walking down the street, you're gonna want to cross to
Speaker 3: the other side. He did not display any of those signals.
Speaker 3: He's the kind of person that most women that came
Speaker 3: in contact with thought he was handsome, thought he was nice,
Speaker 3: wouldn't have had any problem going out on a date
Speaker 3: with him or what. And most guys felt very comfortable
Speaker 3: around him, very non threatening. But on the inside, pure monster.
Speaker 3: And I know there's a lot of people that don't
Speaker 3: like me using the term monster. They take thinks it
Speaker 3: takes away from his you know, what was going on
Speaker 3: with the pathology of Bundy and all that stuff and that,
Speaker 3: and I always say no because if you're going to
Speaker 3: cut off a woman's head and take that head home
Speaker 3: to have oral sex with it, if that's not monster, like,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I don't think it exists. See to understand
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. And this is the reality. This is
Speaker 3: the reality of how he lived. He loved having sex
Speaker 3: with dead girls, and he loved having sex with live girls.
Speaker 3: But there's a monstrous character to theater or Bundy, and
Speaker 3: it goes way beyond just killing a person. It's what
Speaker 3: he did with the dead, how he thought the things
Speaker 3: that he did. And so yeah, I think monster happily
Speaker 3: describes this man.
Speaker 6: Well, when you talk about once the person is dead,
Speaker 6: I mean not to be unfeeling. But let's get to first,
Speaker 6: let's get to the where you start your book and
Speaker 6: where Ted Bundy is in this progression of okay being
Speaker 6: completely being a monster. But what I found one of
Speaker 6: the most interesting aspects of your book, among everything about
Speaker 6: your book that's very interesting, is that you really get
Speaker 6: into detail on the ruses, on the ruses, what was
Speaker 6: his ruse? How on earth could this guy Because we're
Speaker 6: talking about and again I want to get the official
Speaker 6: number as far as you know, how many victims. Well,
Speaker 6: first thing, you tell us how many victims, then tell
Speaker 6: us unfold the ruse you did allude to talking about
Speaker 6: the murder kid. And maybe that's jumping ahead a little
Speaker 6: bit or not, but please tell us what he all did,
Speaker 6: including that he was a good looking guy. Obviously we
Speaker 6: know that he's a good looking, charismatic guy, well groomed guy.
Speaker 6: But he was a skier at one time with his
Speaker 6: actual friends that he did have, and like you say,
Speaker 6: he was a pretty gregarious, friendly guy. What was the
Speaker 6: ruse he used to get these intelligent, educated, even somewhat
Speaker 6: careful women to come with us, right.
Speaker 3: Okay, First of all, Bundy was anything but stupid, and
Speaker 3: he knew. He knew he was articulate, He was to
Speaker 3: some degree well read, he was educated, He knew he
Speaker 3: had a personality that could win people over. He also
Speaker 3: was an exceedingly good planner of murder in Washington State.
Speaker 3: He was never better at murder than when he was
Speaker 3: in Washington State because he had many factors going for him.
Speaker 3: He knew the terrain, he knew, he knew so many things.
Speaker 3: He picked out body dumps and he discovered early on
Speaker 3: that if he would apply the ruse to what he
Speaker 3: was doing, the better off he would be enable to
Speaker 3: being able to capture his victims. Now in Washington State,
Speaker 3: he would use a cast or he would do his
Speaker 3: arm in a sling with like a little what's it called,
Speaker 3: like a splint or something. And remember he had something
Speaker 3: on it at CWSC where his hand must have had
Speaker 3: like a little splinter or something on it. He carried
Speaker 3: at CWSC. And I talked about this in the book.
Speaker 3: He's carrying and dropping books while he's kind of laboring
Speaker 3: under an injury. And not only that, he's got a
Speaker 3: couple of packages with him that had brown parcel paper
Speaker 3: around him, you know, and tied with string. And you
Speaker 3: see a guy looking like a normal guy, and you
Speaker 3: got this thing going on. Women are gonna say, can
Speaker 3: I help you with that? And he knew that would
Speaker 3: play in his favor and it did, And so he
Speaker 3: took the natural things that he had the abilities, and
Speaker 3: he would add to it now. And when he got
Speaker 3: to Utah, as we now know, he tried to gain
Speaker 3: and in fact did gain the confidence of Carol Durrant
Speaker 3: at the Murray in Murray at the Fashion Place Mall
Speaker 3: by showing her a badge, first just announcing that he
Speaker 3: was a police officer, and she followed himself, that was
Speaker 3: an authority, that was an authority thing. And then when
Speaker 3: she demanded to see a badge, he flipped her a
Speaker 3: badge of some type. Wasn't a real police badge, so
Speaker 3: he would use that. So he used the crutches he
Speaker 3: would use. You know, there are various ruses that he
Speaker 3: would use. He had a chameleion type look to himself.
Speaker 3: There's a pretty good picture that you'll see occasionally, have
Speaker 3: like six different photographs of Bundy lined up, you know,
Speaker 3: three and three top and bottom, and in each photograph
Speaker 3: he looks different than people call that the chameleon look.
Speaker 3: But even with that, even with his ability to change
Speaker 3: how he looks by combing his hair on the other
Speaker 3: side or doing something else, or losing weight or you
Speaker 3: know whatever, he still would occasionally use, like, for instance,
Speaker 3: a false mustache, like he did to night that Carol
Speaker 3: Durance got away from him and he went up to
Speaker 3: puntiful and kidnapped baby Can. So the ruse for him.
Speaker 3: In fact, when he talked to Michelle and Amesworth, he
Speaker 3: talked about reinforcing the ruse, and I believe he talked.
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Speaker 3: Plus he was including this conversation. I'll just tell the
Speaker 3: audience for those that don't know that. He left Seattle
Speaker 3: traveled about two hundred and fifty miles south into Corvallis, Oregon.
Speaker 3: On May sixth of nineteen seventy four. At about eleven o'clock.
Speaker 3: He met up with Kathy Parks at the cafeteria in
Speaker 3: Corvalis at the university. And I have a second story
Speaker 3: to that but he talked her into leaving with him
Speaker 3: by saying he was a student. They were going to
Speaker 3: go get a drink. Her boyfriend was coming in, but
Speaker 3: she was a little dissatisfied with him and with life,
Speaker 3: and she battled depression. So she went with him, and
Speaker 3: so he told her he had to go pick up
Speaker 3: I think he said a resume or something that somebody
Speaker 3: was piping for him, and he called that reinforcing the ruse.
Speaker 3: But that when he got beyond the city limits and
Speaker 3: where it was more rural, well he was in complete control.
Speaker 3: Then he stopped the car. He ordered certain things and
Speaker 3: she obeyed. There was no getting away. So he called
Speaker 3: even conversation certain things to still people and keep them
Speaker 3: from being fearful. He would call that ruse. Now, an
Speaker 3: interesting thing came up about that. When Kathy Parks was
Speaker 3: headed to the cafeteria that night, the official reports talk
Speaker 3: about her running into a woman named Lorraine Fargo, and
Speaker 3: she had mailed Kathy Parks from the record, she had
Speaker 3: mailed her boyfriend a letter. And this is May sixth,
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four. She had mailed a letter. And really,
Speaker 3: I think this is the first time that you're all
Speaker 3: really anybody to speak of, except for a site that
Speaker 3: I answered questions. I'm called executed today. The information I'm
Speaker 3: about to give ire I gave there. But Lorraine Fargo
Speaker 3: ran into her right before Kathy went to the cafeteria.
Speaker 3: And this was close to eleven o'clock at night. Lorraine
Speaker 3: was coming from the library and they met each other.
Speaker 3: And so anyway, Kathy mailed this letter to her boyfriend.
Speaker 3: And it's because it has a postpont date of May seventh.
Speaker 3: I founded the book that perhaps she made she mailed
Speaker 3: it that night, maybe even perhaps even right at the
Speaker 3: time that she talked to Lorraine Fargo. And I said,
Speaker 3: you know, it may be that Bundy was following Lorraine
Speaker 3: and then saw the vulnerability or whatever of Kathy. We
Speaker 3: just don't know. Well, I've spoken to Lorraine Fargo since then.
Speaker 3: Lorraine told me that my assumptions were correct. She said
Speaker 3: she was holding the letter and there was a there
Speaker 3: was a there was a post office box not twenty
Speaker 3: feet from them. Once she was done talking to Lorraine,
Speaker 3: Kathy put the letter in the box and went on
Speaker 3: to the cafeteria. And then Lorraine tells me the story
Speaker 3: about a guy coming up to her in the library
Speaker 3: wanting to talk to her, and Bundy used to hunt
Speaker 3: the libraries, as we as we know. And when she
Speaker 3: left the library, this guy followed could very well be
Speaker 3: that he saw them stop and he and it could
Speaker 3: have been Bundy. So you know, these are the kind
Speaker 3: of things that that you know, I found interesting that
Speaker 3: we're actually confirmed. You know, when I talked to Loring Fargo,
Speaker 3: she was actually holding the letter when they were talking,
Speaker 3: and I've seen pictures of where they stood. It's right
Speaker 3: across from the cafeteria. But in Campy Park's case, Bundy
Speaker 3: said the things he said to her were reinforcing the ruse.
Speaker 3: So Bundy considered anything that he could use to fool
Speaker 3: somebody part of the rust.
Speaker 6: Now, what was the murder kit? Could what did the
Speaker 6: murder kit consist of? What was the we have sort
Speaker 6: of the mo of Mahal and we can want to
Speaker 6: know the full signature. What is exactly what did he
Speaker 6: do to I mean, all those victims, there is a
Speaker 6: there is some differences, So again you can go through
Speaker 6: those tell us where where he started and where he finished?
Speaker 6: Uh in terms of what he actually did to those
Speaker 6: victims and what was what were what was containing the
Speaker 6: murder kid itself.
Speaker 3: Okay, what the astute detectives who came on the scene,
Speaker 3: they took one look at the kid and they knew
Speaker 3: that this guy wasn't a burglar. I mean, it's like
Speaker 3: they said, some of the stuff in there, you know,
Speaker 3: it's for tying people up. Well, here's what was in
Speaker 3: the bag. It's a sprowned satchel, kind of like a
Speaker 3: gin bag. He carried, uh, a ski mask in there.
Speaker 3: He carried two right handed gloves there were you know,
Speaker 3: the left glove was gone. He carried two right handed gloves.
Speaker 3: One was a blue puffy ski type and the other
Speaker 3: one was brown woolen with with leather on it. Now,
Speaker 3: these would be used when he would drag the bodies out,
Speaker 3: just to give him traction to hold onto to the
Speaker 3: wrists or whatever of the body that he was dragging.
Speaker 3: A lot of these girls had drag bruises and scratches
Speaker 3: from drag marks. Okay, post warn them anyway. So he'd
Speaker 3: have two red handed gloves, he'd have a he he
Speaker 3: would have a the ski mask. He had an ice pick.
Speaker 3: I believe the ice pick he used a puncture holes
Speaker 3: in the women. For some reason, I don't necessarily faily
Speaker 3: believe that he used them to actually kill the women.
Speaker 3: He had an electrical cord which he used for choking,
Speaker 3: and he probably used that every time. He also had
Speaker 3: clothesline rope. You could use that for choking, but it
Speaker 3: could be for binding up people. That was in there
Speaker 3: as well. Plus he had taken a white sheet and
Speaker 3: cut these up into strips, and that was for binding
Speaker 3: hands and feet. As I said, he carried the glad
Speaker 3: bags in the bag to He never left anything on
Speaker 3: the bodies beyond say a beaded or wooden necklace. While
Speaker 3: he left those on there, he must have had his reasons.
Speaker 3: Could easily jerk them right off the neck, but or
Speaker 3: he would leave. If he choked them with stocking, he
Speaker 3: would usually leave that, but a lot of times he'll
Speaker 3: use this electrical cord anyway. That was in there. And
Speaker 3: then there was a flashlight which would come in handy
Speaker 3: because he's often found himself himself out in the woods
Speaker 3: at night and you would absolutely need one. And uh,
Speaker 3: let's see there was let's see, I don't know about
Speaker 3: the cover. I guess, oh, there was a panty holes
Speaker 3: mask and a plus and plus he had he had
Speaker 3: handcuffs now, and of course he had the crowbar, but
Speaker 3: the handcuffs and the pantyholes mask were not with the
Speaker 3: kit that came to Louisville. The crowbar, and I believe
Speaker 3: the handcuffs were with the court system in Utah. I
Speaker 3: believe in the hands of Judge Hanson, which he died
Speaker 3: last year. Maybe his family has a crowbar. I know
Speaker 3: that Jerry Thompson when when when Jerry Thomps, when Bundy
Speaker 3: was arrested in Florida, Jerry Thompson flew down there and
Speaker 3: because Bunny was caught with a panty holes mask down there, uh,
Speaker 3: and Thompson flew in there with that Pennyhles mask so
Speaker 3: it could be entered evidence, so they could make some
Speaker 3: kind of correlation that the judge. That judge denied it
Speaker 3: down there for some reason. So I don't know if
Speaker 3: that ever came back from Florida, but everything else in
Speaker 3: his kit came to Louisville. And I say in the book,
Speaker 3: if you want to see how the murders changed, I
Speaker 3: see in the book that in Utah he kicked it
Speaker 3: up a notch. There is strong, strong evidence that two
Speaker 3: of the girls, Laura Amy and Melissa Smith were kept
Speaker 3: alive for a number of days. Absolutely, it's without question
Speaker 3: when Melissa Smith was taken, her body didn't turn up
Speaker 3: for a certain period of time. When they did locate
Speaker 3: her body, they determined that she'd only been dead for
Speaker 3: like about five days, and she'd been gone a lot longer,
Speaker 3: so there was no place really to go and store them.
Speaker 3: So there's a detective of the opinion, and I had
Speaker 3: to agree with him that Bundy took her to his
Speaker 3: apartment at five sixty five First Avenue. They're the University
Speaker 3: of Utah. Now. Melissa Smith was the daughter of Lewis Smith,
Speaker 3: who was the chief of police of Midvale, Utah. Midvale
Speaker 3: is just a suburb of Salt Lake. There are these
Speaker 3: little cities that run. It's all one kind of big
Speaker 3: metropolitan area. Anyway, when the sister of Melissa Smith, Tilleen
Speaker 3: saw her sister, she told detectives, that's not my sister's makeup.
Speaker 3: She's wearing plus even though she was dead, and she
Speaker 3: had scratches and bruises on her from the hauling and
Speaker 3: all that, and cranium damage which ultimately kill her. In
Speaker 3: other words, when she was hit, she men never begain
Speaker 3: consciousness and lived for a number of days with Bundy,
Speaker 3: and that was fine with him. But he had washed
Speaker 3: her hair, cleaned her body, reapplied makeup, and left her
Speaker 3: out in the woods or in a location that she
Speaker 3: could be found. And that wasn't very odd of Bunny.
Speaker 3: Sometimes he wouldn't put people too far off the road,
Speaker 3: if you know what I mean. It's almost like he
Speaker 3: wanted them to be found. But the thing about Utah
Speaker 3: is he kicked it up a notch. He was wanting
Speaker 3: to not just kill women and do things there. Or
Speaker 3: He admitted to having at least four heads at one
Speaker 3: time in his apartment in Washington State, but in Utah
Speaker 3: he was bringing living although perhaps comenttose bodies to his
Speaker 3: apartment compleas I mean, to the house he lived in.
Speaker 3: He either carried him up the stairs or up the
Speaker 3: fire escape, and nothing was too bizarre. The normal mind
Speaker 3: would think, oh, you wouldn't do that, But you got
Speaker 3: to throw all that away with Bundy. There are things
Speaker 3: he did that you wouldn't think anybody would do. When
Speaker 3: it comes to kidnapping and murder, you just wouldn't do it,
Speaker 3: but he did it anyway. Some people think maybe he
Speaker 3: stuffed him down down in the utility room, but I
Speaker 3: don't think so because that could have practic of other
Speaker 3: people in there and they could be discovered. So I
Speaker 3: believe he had him in his room at different times,
Speaker 3: but they were there, and when they finally died, he
Speaker 3: washed him up or whatever and got rid of him.
Speaker 3: So he kicked things up the Knox and then if
Speaker 3: you look at how the murders went, by the time
Speaker 3: he went to Florida, he was a very, very disorganized
Speaker 3: killer there. He was a very part of the time
Speaker 3: he was there physically dirty. There, he was undergoing by
Speaker 3: the time he got to Florida his own version of
Speaker 3: a meltdown. But again that's a that's that's later down
Speaker 3: the road.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a it's an interesting story that the scent
Speaker 6: that had gone. What you don't mention is, and again
Speaker 6: you've spoken to it somewhat, is that he raped and
Speaker 6: sodomized these women. So he certainly he could, yes, for
Speaker 6: lack of a better word, perform and he was a necrofile,
Speaker 6: so that definitely he wanted that sex with the dead bodies.
Speaker 6: That was just something that I did not know about,
Speaker 6: and I would bet that most people that think they
Speaker 6: know the Ted Bundy story aren't aware of that aspect
Speaker 6: of it. That usually is the separation between the very
Speaker 6: weirdest killers, the Dahmers. Even Gaycy would never as far
Speaker 6: as anyone knows, didn't engage in that. But I mean,
Speaker 6: not to make them much better than he is, but
Speaker 6: it is sort of a unique things in terms of
Speaker 6: these people admitting that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not like it's not like he couldn't
Speaker 3: perform with living women, because he could, and he could
Speaker 3: have sex, normal sex with living women, his girlfriends, whatever,
Speaker 3: and then he could have sex with the dead. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, it's just and he used to love those
Speaker 3: moments right after a woman. He used to love the
Speaker 3: breath going out of them. He wanted to be there
Speaker 3: when they expire, and you know, the the change in
Speaker 3: body color and of the freshly dead. He really enjoyed that. Okay,
Speaker 3: so you know this is this is the kind of
Speaker 3: you know, there are people out there that that commit
Speaker 3: murder and they don't even think in terms like this.
Speaker 3: This Theodore Bundy is certainly not unique in as much
Speaker 3: as there aren't other people out there like him. There are,
Speaker 3: but he's very unique. As to what Theodore Bundy was
Speaker 3: on the outside and what he accomplished. You see Ross Davis,
Speaker 3: who is the head of the Republican Party out there
Speaker 3: like the Central I can't stay at Natalist alone, but
Speaker 3: the Central Working and State Committee or something like that.
Speaker 3: He told me, He said Bundy could have had anything
Speaker 3: he wanted. You know, he had a lot of influential friends.
Speaker 3: He was educated, and I say in the book, had
Speaker 3: he gone into law or politics, it doesn't matter. The
Speaker 3: proper doors were going to open for him. In the
Speaker 3: midst of it all. The core of Bundee was not
Speaker 3: becoming governor becoming a lawyer, having a wife and children
Speaker 3: and a non de five. His core value was murder.
Speaker 3: And as that started rising at him to where he
Speaker 3: was going to pass from the barrier from fantasy to reality,
Speaker 3: he reached a point where that he just internally discarded
Speaker 3: the mask of a life and he was only going
Speaker 3: to do that which would help him to stay secret.
Speaker 3: But he got to the place where he knew that
Speaker 3: all of these accomplishments and all of the influential friends
Speaker 3: he had, and where he could have gone, he wasn't
Speaker 3: going there. And he knew it. And I say something
Speaker 3: like this in the book that on that day there
Speaker 3: would be no exit ramps for him. He was going
Speaker 3: one way and that's all he wanted. In fact, he
Speaker 3: told Bill Heigmeyer, he said, I don't know why it's
Speaker 3: so hard for people to understand that I just enjoyed
Speaker 3: killing people. He just enjoyed killing people and that's what
Speaker 3: he was going to do. And Bill said, and he
Speaker 3: just said to himself, I'm going to keep doing this
Speaker 3: until I'm God. And that's essentially how he lived his life. Now,
Speaker 3: I personally believe that Bundy killed before nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 3: I think he killed in nineteen seventy three, and I
Speaker 3: think it's highly likely that he killed Anne Marie Burt.
Speaker 3: I know some people will scream and say, oh, that's ridiculous,
Speaker 3: But he implicated himself, and I go into this in
Speaker 3: the book. He implicated himself to Ron Holmes, who was
Speaker 3: also here from Louisville. And I interviewed Ron and in
Speaker 3: the third person, like Michael Ainsworth thing when he was
Speaker 3: confessing to them the third person, he directly linked himself
Speaker 3: to the murder of Anne Mary Burb. Did he kill Burt?
Speaker 3: There's no way of knowing. But again this is part
Speaker 3: of the mystery of what he was. Now you asked
Speaker 3: about the total, they come up with a total of
Speaker 3: thirty five thirty six. That is probably correct. I think
Speaker 3: it's probably a little low, a little low, But talk
Speaker 3: of one hundred, that's absurd. I just don't believe it.
Speaker 3: But I do believe it's probably above thirty five. And
Speaker 3: I do believe he killed more girls, like twelve years
Speaker 3: old or maybe thirteen whatever than he would have admitted to.
Speaker 3: And in fact, he admitted to killing eleven in Washington State,
Speaker 3: but really he only named eight. He admitted to killing
Speaker 3: eight in Utah, but he only named five. Bundy had
Speaker 3: things that he was not going to talk about. Bundy
Speaker 3: had his secrets, and I'm sure he hated the fact
Speaker 3: that he had to share some of those at the
Speaker 3: end of his life to try to gain more time.
Speaker 3: He didn't like that because he considered that information belonging
Speaker 3: to him and said, so, I've even got a place
Speaker 3: in the book where he talked about that it's mine,
Speaker 3: it's mine, like you know, to give away or you
Speaker 3: know whatever the transcript says. So he hated doing that.
Speaker 3: But there were numerous things that I know Bundy took
Speaker 3: to the grave with him, and they're just information that
Speaker 3: we're just never going to know. And there's women out
Speaker 3: there that never came home and there's no knowledge of
Speaker 3: where they are, and he killed them, just like there's
Speaker 3: other women that have died by other people's hands, and
Speaker 3: they're just they're just never going to come home again.
Speaker 3: Nobody knows what happened to them.
Speaker 6: Now, what I found was really fascinating, again, very almost
Speaker 6: like a Hollywood adaptation. He is arrested, tell us about
Speaker 6: his arrest, how he came to be arrested, and then secondly,
Speaker 6: how did he ever escape? Once on the lamb for
Speaker 6: a week, and then how does he escape to give
Speaker 6: us sort of briefly how this scenario happens, because of
Speaker 6: course it could have spared the lives of numerous women
Speaker 6: in Florida. So tell us about these escapes. Who was responsible?
Speaker 6: How the heck did Ted Bundy pull this off?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, listen, people, some people in Colorado won't like
Speaker 3: to hear this, but the only reason why there were
Speaker 3: three women murdered in Florida is because the jailers in
Speaker 3: Colorado are not doing their job. They are directly responsible
Speaker 3: those who did not secure him are directly responsible for
Speaker 3: the murders of those girls. And they could say they're not,
Speaker 3: but they are because he escaped Nod once but twice,
Speaker 3: and he was in Colorado, and I can go back
Speaker 3: to the arrest fund. He felt so secure he was
Speaker 3: out looking for a victim. On August sixteenth, nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 3: when he was pulled over in Granger, Utah. He had
Speaker 3: he said he wasn't. He said he was all just
Speaker 3: absolomping some pot and he wasn't. But he's he is
Speaker 3: a liar, and the evidence is there a word. He
Speaker 3: had the seat out and he would and it was
Speaker 3: laying in the backseat. That means he was looking for
Speaker 3: a woman the club and lay her down there. So
Speaker 3: he had his seat out. He had the murder kit opened,
Speaker 3: the same murder kit to Ken High House. He had
Speaker 3: it opened. Stuff was spilling out. He was ready to
Speaker 3: use it. He was smoking pot. He got pulled over
Speaker 3: by this con and he's taken in. If not till
Speaker 3: a little later they started putting two and two about
Speaker 3: this guy. But here's what happened. In January of seventy five,
Speaker 3: months before he was arrested. He killed Karen Campbell up
Speaker 3: at Snowmass, a Michigan nurse out of Michigan who came
Speaker 3: to their boyfriend, doctor Raymond Gadawski and his kids the
Speaker 3: Snowmass for scheme. I think within about twenty four hours
Speaker 3: she was dead. And Mike Fisher out of Colorado, and
Speaker 3: he and I looked together closely on this book. He
Speaker 3: is the one that was finally was able to bring
Speaker 3: a warrant for murder against Bundy because the gasoline seats
Speaker 3: placed him near to where those murders in Colorado took place.
Speaker 3: It's just more than Karen, I mean more than Karen Campbell.
Speaker 3: There was Julie Tonny hamso and so forth, and so
Speaker 3: they knew they had their guy. So he gets this
Speaker 3: murder warned and they take him. Bundy had been sentenced
Speaker 3: to one to fifteen years for the attempted abduction of
Speaker 3: kidnapping a Carol the ranch, and so he was doing
Speaker 3: one to fifteen years. Had pointed them mount in prison
Speaker 3: in Utah. Well they came and got him because he
Speaker 3: was going to stand trial for murder in Colorado. Well
Speaker 3: he you know, he's in the Aspen jail. It's a
Speaker 3: very old building, and he gets to know the guards.
Speaker 3: Everybody likes him. He's ted, you know, and you know
Speaker 3: Jerry Thompson's warning, Mike Fisher's warning, you can't lit this
Speaker 3: guy out of your sight. He's going to escape. He's
Speaker 3: he's a murderer. He's a vicious individual. And I don't know,
Speaker 3: he's just ted. You know. He's reading his law books
Speaker 3: in the library. Well, one day he goes in to
Speaker 3: read the law law books library, jumps out the second
Speaker 3: story window. Off he goes into the wilds. He he
Speaker 3: snookered the jailers, but he couldn't snooker the wilds of Colorado.
Speaker 3: And he was within five or six days he was
Speaker 3: back and he was incarcerated. He tried to come back
Speaker 3: and see the car and so man he was transferred
Speaker 3: to another jail later for another reason. He's already had
Speaker 3: one escape. They're warning him. They say he have the
Speaker 3: prisoner saying he's he's undone. The light fixture above and
Speaker 3: there was a plate that needed welding, and he got
Speaker 3: up like kind of like an a rafter type things.
Speaker 3: They could hear him calling about the prisoners warned them.
Speaker 3: Jerry Thompson won them again. Michael Fisher warned them, Oh,
Speaker 3: he's just Ted. You know he's not Fit's okay gone.
Speaker 3: Second time gets away, hosts a flight to Chicago, takes
Speaker 3: a train to ann Arbor, goes the university, steals a car,
Speaker 3: comes through Louisville, has breakfast, heads to Atlanta, dumps the
Speaker 3: car in Atlanta, takes the Trailways bus to Tallahassee. Nobody
Speaker 3: knows this guy. He gets saddled, that desire for murder
Speaker 3: comes back off he goes. But let me tell you something.
Speaker 3: People lost their jobs in Colorado because they didn't watch him.
Speaker 3: Three women lost their lives. You know, horrible, horrible thing.
Speaker 3: Nobody should have died after he was arrested. I mean,
Speaker 3: after he was transferred to Colorado, they'd have put that
Speaker 3: man on lockdown. I mean, that would have been it.
Speaker 3: He had never killed anybody else.
Speaker 6: You know what's very interesting, too, is the when you
Speaker 6: talk about uncontrollable urges. I don't know if he could
Speaker 6: really appro apply to so many people, But with Ted Bundy,
Speaker 6: you can see this is testament. He is, he is gone,
Speaker 6: he has escaped, he's far away from the scene. He
Speaker 6: has the ability like a chameleon to be able to
Speaker 6: he has he has, he has a different alias. He's
Speaker 6: already he's already ingratuated himself with a bunch of people.
Speaker 6: He's already in this sort of different situation. Yet he
Speaker 6: has to kill, and he has to kill, and he
Speaker 6: has to kill the way Ted Bundy kills. He can't
Speaker 6: be quiet. He has to do it with this force.
Speaker 6: This you talk about this monstrous full transformation. But it
Speaker 6: certainly is in Florida, isn't it.
Speaker 3: But I'll tell you something interesting. By the time he
Speaker 3: reached Florida, he had lost his edge to kill. He
Speaker 3: was no longer And I pointed this out in the
Speaker 3: book The Swab Predator of nineteen seventy four to seventy five.
Speaker 3: During those periods, he could draw women to him like
Speaker 3: a magnet. However, by the time he's in Florida, he's
Speaker 3: putting out the kind of vibes that are actually repelling
Speaker 3: women and repulsing them. When he tried to pick up
Speaker 3: women next to Kyle at the Oh gosh, I need
Speaker 3: my own book here, uh, the Disco Charades disco next
Speaker 3: door right, the women called him creepy, his eyes were weird.
Speaker 3: He wasn't drawing women, he was repelling women, and so
Speaker 3: and I point this out in the book. So what
Speaker 3: does he do. He can't get the conscious women, he
Speaker 3: goes next door in the middle of the night and
Speaker 3: attacks the unconscious women at Kyle Omega. And the funny
Speaker 3: thing about this is it had been a long time
Speaker 3: since he had killed. And if you look at them
Speaker 3: of the person that attacked the women in Kyle Omega,
Speaker 3: and you look at them of Bundy, the killer in
Speaker 3: either Washington State or Utah, you're you're not yeah, You're
Speaker 3: not gonna think they're the same guys at all. And
Speaker 3: you see he was defending as a killer. He was
Speaker 3: becoming more animalistic, where in he was exceedingly careful of
Speaker 3: leaving evidence behind in Washington State, he was as sloppy
Speaker 3: as he could be. In Florida, And after and I
Speaker 3: point this out the book, after the frenzy at Kylemega,
Speaker 3: he's walking away from Kylemega holding the log that he
Speaker 3: attacked the women with by his side, and a guy
Speaker 3: goes by and sees it. So does he go home
Speaker 3: at that point? And does he try to hot know
Speaker 3: the killer in him is not satiated. What does he do.
Speaker 3: While sirens are wailing. He's walking just a few blocks over.
Speaker 3: I've been over this whole area. He goes over to Dunwoodie,
Speaker 3: it's just a stone's throw and he attacks the the
Speaker 3: Thomas woman in her apartment. So the killer had not
Speaker 3: satiated himself with Kyle Mega, and while the sirens are wailing,
Speaker 3: he's looking for another victim. This is not the.
Speaker 5: The the the the attitude and the activity of even a
Speaker 5: normal killer, who should back this time be saying, Ah,
Speaker 5: time to fly away. Now I've done my work. I
Speaker 5: need to go and attack another day. No, he continues
Speaker 5: to think, but he gets away with it, and of
Speaker 5: course he goes on. And then later he kills twelve
Speaker 5: year old Kim Leech in Lake City, and of course
Speaker 5: that's the murder.
Speaker 3: He's ultimately put to death for.
Speaker 6: What I thought was to really reinforce what you're saying
Speaker 6: is that there are various potential victims that escape, like
Speaker 6: Carol does Laranch and and ends up testifying against him
Speaker 6: at court. But there are other people too that, again
Speaker 6: later in your investigation and before that as well, were
Speaker 6: would be victims but just didn't fall for the ruse
Speaker 6: completely and Ted was more than compliant to let them go,
Speaker 6: so he wasn't desperate at all. He had the ability
Speaker 6: to attract all kinds of different potential victims with almost
Speaker 6: sort of ease, so that when he had somebody that
Speaker 6: had resistance and could expose him, he just let them go.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, Now he Ted tells an interesting story.
Speaker 3: Once he was he had a lady. You know, he
Speaker 3: was doing the same thing he did with Georgia Ane Hawkins,
Speaker 3: where he's stumbling, you know, and trying to carry a
Speaker 3: briefcase or whatever. And just like he got Georgiaane Hawkins,
Speaker 3: he helps him to his car, and he was all
Speaker 3: ready to hit this girl over the head with a crowbar.
Speaker 3: And he himself didn't know why. But he said, once
Speaker 3: in a while I would just call it off. I'd
Speaker 3: say thanks a lot and go on. And I don't
Speaker 3: think he knew why he did it. I think that
Speaker 3: was the exception rather than the rule. Now, And I
Speaker 3: don't mean as a dry run. He used to do
Speaker 3: drive runs just to see if he could do it.
Speaker 3: That's how much he prepared Furder in Washington State. But
Speaker 3: he came out and said there were pals whand he
Speaker 3: meant to do that, and at the last moment he said, like,
Speaker 3: for some reason, I just changed my mind. And there
Speaker 3: are other women. I know that when he confessed to
Speaker 3: the Lyneth Cover murder in Idaho, he said, you know,
Speaker 3: there were other attempts, but not anything that would have
Speaker 3: let the women know like they were about to be abducted.
Speaker 3: So there's a number of women that came close to
Speaker 3: an encounter with him and then never knew it. You know,
Speaker 3: he was attempting to pull it off, and I found
Speaker 3: out reasons why he had extra trouble, you might say,
Speaker 3: when he was up there the day before he got
Speaker 3: the before he got Lynneth Culbert, even though it was
Speaker 3: May sixth, it was the one year anniversary by the
Speaker 3: way of the Cathey Park subduction. But May sixth, nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy five, and he's up at the university and up
Speaker 3: there and it's you know, winter still kind of like
Speaker 3: holding on to its grasp, And both days he was there,
Speaker 3: it was cold and snow showers, And so I say
Speaker 3: in the book, you know, women coming from their car
Speaker 3: going into place, I don't care if a guy's holding
Speaker 3: or not. If it's cold and they're freezing. Every failia
Speaker 3: and they're gonna go on. So that hindered him. He
Speaker 3: didn't know the area that hindered them. There was various
Speaker 3: things that was hindering him from capturing you know, the
Speaker 3: colleague aged women while he was there. Well, it just
Speaker 3: so happened. The next day he was trolling and got
Speaker 3: twelve year old Lennet Culver and took her back to
Speaker 3: the holiday inn and did not have sex with her
Speaker 3: prior to murdering her, but he'd drowned her in the
Speaker 3: tub and then he had sex with her. And this
Speaker 3: is a particular case where I called William Hagener, I said, Bill,
Speaker 3: I got her name, and I got the mayor of
Speaker 3: her death, but I don't have anything else. When he
Speaker 3: heard the matter of her death, he said, I don't
Speaker 3: think that that's probably what happened, because that's not the
Speaker 3: way Bundy used to like kill his women. But if
Speaker 3: you find out anymore about it, please let me know.
Speaker 3: And then I found out exactly what happened. And you know,
Speaker 3: it didn't come out in the regular concession. When Russ
Speaker 3: renewed uh and his like assistant not as system but
Speaker 3: the associate crimina and investigator when they were dealing with
Speaker 3: Bundy in the last hours of his life. Last couple
Speaker 3: of days, they were covering Dilanet cover murder, and they
Speaker 3: were covering the girl that Bundy picked up at as
Speaker 3: a hitchhiker on his move to Utah, that he killed
Speaker 3: in the state. And they were going back and forth
Speaker 3: really fast, and Bundy had mentioned that he drowned Culver
Speaker 3: and put her body in the river. But when they
Speaker 3: were walking out of the prison, Us looked at Randy
Speaker 3: Evert and said, you know, he never really said how
Speaker 3: he drowned her. Could you go back in and find
Speaker 3: out exactly what happened there? And this was an unscheduled meeting.
Speaker 3: It wasn't sanctioned by Bundy's attorney. William Hagmer was there.
Speaker 3: Randy ever Randy Everett is led back into the prison
Speaker 3: and waited for Bundy in a room and here comes
Speaker 3: Bundy and he said, you know, something like Ted you
Speaker 3: said you drowned the girl. How did you do it?
Speaker 3: He said, oh, I drowned her in the club, and
Speaker 3: you know, and then he had sex with her, so
Speaker 3: on and so forth. But that's why Hagmar never knew
Speaker 3: that the girl was drowned, because Hagmar told me, you
Speaker 3: got to remember Bundy's am over killing women a lot
Speaker 3: of times, and this is what he did. It's graphic,
Speaker 3: but it's true. It's all part of the story. He
Speaker 3: used to have sex with him, either amally or vaginally
Speaker 3: from behind, and he would choke them to death at
Speaker 3: the same time because of the physiological things to go
Speaker 3: on when they die. So this is something he really enjoyed.
Speaker 3: And so Hagmar said, I've never known Bundy to drown anybody,
Speaker 3: never admitted to it, but that came out in like
Speaker 3: this little extra meeting. And so these are some of
Speaker 3: the things I was able to find out that a
Speaker 3: few people knew, a few investigators knew, but it never
Speaker 3: made it into prince.
Speaker 6: So anyway, Yeah, no, you've done an amazing job with this.
Speaker 6: When you say a comprehensive history, you're not kidding. This
Speaker 6: is an incredible must have. Again, as anybody that's interested
Speaker 6: in any of these killers is. This is like again
Speaker 6: I talked last night about sort of the Golden Age
Speaker 6: for a lack of a better term, these guys were
Speaker 6: the template that the criminal profile is studied to try
Speaker 6: to understand. I have not to say to understand, but
Speaker 6: to try to understand these people. And Ted Bundy, like
Speaker 6: you say, is all encompassing. He is the narcissistic, charismatic,
Speaker 6: the organized serial killer, but he's also the necrofile, which
Speaker 6: is usually associated with less organized kinds of killers. And
Speaker 6: I like to say his moo changes, his signature seems
Speaker 6: to change to a certain degree. There's an escalation, a progression.
Speaker 6: It's an amazing story. I want to thank you very
Speaker 6: much Kevin for coming onto the program and uh for
Speaker 6: those I know I did, and I know our audience
Speaker 6: will really appreciate this, this interview, and I want to
Speaker 6: let people know that they've been listening to Kevin Sullivan
Speaker 6: with his book The Bundee Murders, A Comprehensive History. Thank
Speaker 6: you very much, Kevin, and I hope you have a
Speaker 6: great weekend.
Speaker 3: You too. We'll see you Dan, Thank you, thank you
Speaker 3: very much.
Speaker 6: Even listening to the program. A true murder, the most
Speaker 6: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 6: have written about them. I'll see you in the future.