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Chum Chumbacasino dot combers eighty plus 23 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:00.000 start the conditions of plus. 24 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:02.679 Lo host Radium. 25 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:15.359 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:25.840 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 28 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:34.159 infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:48.400 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your 31 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.519 host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, the most 32 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:54.400 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 33 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:57.319 have written about them. Theatre Bundy was one of the 34 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:02.159 more most infamous and flamboy and American sewer killers on record, 35 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:06.799 and his story is a complex mix of psychopathology, criminal investigation, 36 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.919 and the US legal system. This in depth examination of 37 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:14.000 Bundy's life and his killing spree that total dozens of 38 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:18.159 victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and interviews with 39 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.879 detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information on several 40 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:27.039 murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken 41 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.159 family background to his execution in the electric chair. My 42 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.120 special guest this evening is Kevin Sullivan. We're going to 43 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.759 be discussing the book The Bundy Murders, a Comprehensive History. 44 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.879 My special guest and journalist and author Kevin Sullivan, Welcome 45 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.199 to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 46 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.199 Kevin Sullivan, Well, thanks Dan, it's. 47 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:49.719 Nice talking with you again. 48 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:54.240 Well, thanks very much. And I've told the audience that 49 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:56.840 we'd have you on, and here you are. We're actually 50 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:58.960 going to be talking about ten Budy. For all those 51 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.840 people that listen in Latin week and suffer through my explanation, 52 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:06.879 here is the real deal, Kevin Sullivan talking about Ted Bundy. Now, 53 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.240 first off, this is always a question I think that 54 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:14.520 deserves to be answered by an author. Why did you 55 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.199 decide to write There have been many books about Ted Bundy, 56 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.000 best selling books. Why did you decide to write a 57 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.199 book about Ted Bundy? What did you think you could 58 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.120 bring to the official record? 59 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:33.280 Okay, well, I never dreamed I would write a book 60 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.800 about Theodore Bundy. Was I knew the case a little bit, 61 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.039 but I was also aware that a good number of 62 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:45.439 books had been written about Ted Bundy. And a friend 63 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:51.039 of mine, James Massey, he was employed about probation par 64 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:55.120 role here in Kentucky for over twenty years and occasionally 65 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.599 we would talk about the Bundy case because Jim is 66 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:03.680 good friends with retired detective Jerry Thompson out of Utah, 67 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.199 And for those people who don't know, Thompson is the 68 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:13.080 detective who kind of unmasked Bundy when Bundy was arrested. 69 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.079 Soon after, Bundy was arrested on what they thought was 70 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:18.800 suspicion of burglary because of some things he had in 71 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.879 his car. And then once Bundy came the light in 72 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:26.279 connection with the missing and murdered girls in Utah, of course, 73 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.720 you know, they traced it back home to the murders 74 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.079 of Washington State, and in the whole world knew. But 75 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:35.519 Jim Massey had been friends with Jerry for a good 76 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:38.920 number of years, and so in two thousand and five 77 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.319 I got a call from Jim one night. He said, listen, 78 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.959 Jerry Thompson and his wife, they're coming to Louisville and 79 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.759 would you like to have dinner. I said, sure, I 80 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:50.600 think that would be great because this would be an 81 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:53.480 opportunity to meet a guy that was all a damous case, 82 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:56.800 but I never believed anything would come from it. Well, 83 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:01.680 when he came to Louisville, he brought head Bundy's murder kid, 84 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.279 which I knew he had, but we didn't know that 85 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:06.759 he was going to bring it to Louisville, but he 86 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:08.759 knew Jim wanted to see it. So Jim called me, 87 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:13.199 and I got to see this stuff, and Jerry was 88 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.959 here in Louisville for several days. Jim got to keep 89 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.680 the bag. I brought it to my house. I got 90 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.519 to interview Jerry, and he even gave me, and he 91 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:25.079 gave Jim also one of the green trash bags from 92 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.519 Bundy's car that Bundy used to put his victim's clothes 93 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:33.480 in these bags, and he would dump the clothes off 94 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:35.600 at a location separate from where he put the bodies. 95 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:40.480 But anyway, when this occurred, it sparked something in me 96 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.519 and I thought, well, it's going to translate into an 97 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:50.639 article for Snitch. Snitch was a weekly print newspaper that 98 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.079 at one time was running in five or six states, 99 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.160 I believe five states, and by two thousand and five 100 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.800 it was only running editions in Louisville and Lexi in Kentucky. 101 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.800 But so I wrote an article for Snitch because this 102 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:07.120 whole thing was so surreal, bringing the bag to my home, 103 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.480 putting the stuff out on the dining room table, just 104 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.120 as Bundy used to carry it into his house, and 105 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:16.399 so we photographed that. I wrote an article with Snitch. However, 106 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.240 that thing that is intrinsic with writers when they get 107 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:23.240 interested in something. I just hated to write a book 108 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:26.120 about Bundy. And people said, you really don't need to, 109 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.480 because you know, Bundy's been done quite a bit. But 110 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:33.959 there was just that something, an instinct within me, a drive, 111 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:36.079 if you will, to just go ahead and push out, 112 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.839 because I'm I was always very good in in investigating 113 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.560 kind of things and finding people that were part of 114 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.920 a story. And and then I've always been good in 115 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.920 letting my personality shine and they would talk to me. 116 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:52.360 So so I'm going to see what's here. Turns out 117 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.720 that once I got, you know, halfway through the book, 118 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.839 I was uncovering numerous things that had never been in 119 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:05.839 before about these murders, and so the book really developed 120 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:08.439 its own unique flavor. And then after I got into it, 121 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.879 I began to see that most of the books that 122 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.800 have been written about Ted Bundy were written about people 123 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.319 that had direct contact with him, and many of those 124 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.800 were published years and years ago. Some of the more 125 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.759 recent ones were by attorneys and stuff, but the ones, 126 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.199 the really main books are like Bob Kepple's Stephen Michau 127 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.199 and Hugh Hainsworth the only living witness, and I think 128 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.000 the only books two books that have been written by 129 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.360 people that didn't note ed my book, The Bundy Murders, 130 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.040 and then Stephen Wynn and David Merrill's The Killer next Door. 131 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.759 So everybody else had a connection to Bundy. So you 132 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:48.879 know what, when you go into something like that, you're 133 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.480 not so sure how it's going to turn out. I thought, 134 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.560 though I can produce a good book, I had absolutely 135 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:59.360 no idea how many new things that I would discover 136 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:04.240 and how forthright some of these detectives would be. In fact, 137 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:09.240 I called William Hagemeyer one day during my research and 138 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:14.000 I mentioned the name of a girl that Bundy killed, 139 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.879 Lynette Culver out of And I don't want to get 140 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.120 ahead in the story, but I mentioned something to build it. 141 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.680 Even he didn't know, and Bill sat in with every 142 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:30.680 confession Bundy ever made, and yet Bill said, if you 143 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.519 ever found out, and I'll tell more about this later, 144 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:35.960 but he said, if you can confirm what you told me, 145 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.240 which he had his doubts about it, he said, let 146 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.279 me know. And I did confirm it later on, and 147 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:42.879 then told him why he didn't know it. But we 148 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:45.360 can get into that later. But these are the kind 149 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.440 of things that proved to be somewhat shocking to me 150 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.919 because I was like a novice then discovering these things. 151 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:57.120 And yet here I thought everything about Theodore Bundy has 152 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.200 been known, and that wasn't the case at all. 153 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.120 So you basically got into this. You assumed this protict. 154 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.360 You were interested in doing this book, and it was 155 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.759 just a gut instinct that you could find something. And 156 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.159 you were definitely just interested in looking at this case. 157 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.240 But you must have known that or at least been 158 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.879 at least been confident there was something new that you 159 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:18.639 would discover. 160 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:24.399 I felt like it was. It was. It was almost strange. 161 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.960 It's almost like a gut feeling. You could, you could 162 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.440 even call it a sixth sense in a way. There 163 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.639 was Once it was so surreal having that bag come 164 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.720 into my house, and and once I wrote the article 165 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.039 for Snitch, I really did think that that would be it. 166 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:43.440 But the hunger to learn more just wouldn't go away. 167 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.120 And something kept saying, and do it, go ahead and 168 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.720 push forward, And I thought, you know what, maybe there 169 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.399 are some new things to learn. But I knew that 170 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.000 as a researcher and as a writer, I could produce 171 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:59.000 a book that would be very good. The thing that 172 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.399 I didn't know and then is that I could produce 173 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:06.399 one that had so many new things in it and 174 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.559 in essence would have a very unique flavor of its own. 175 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.919 For instance, I think I followed the murders very closely. 176 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.559 I follow his trail, you know, very closely, and like 177 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.720 I say, scattered throughout the book or many new aspects 178 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:25.600 of this case that had never come out before. And 179 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:30.320 I know the fellow the runs the the Wikipedia site 180 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.440 on Ted Bundy, He's gotten a copy of my book 181 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:36.759 and he cites four or five things that I'm assuming 182 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.039 are not, of course, in the other books. When we 183 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.360 get into the murder of Lynnette Colbert, basically before my book, 184 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.200 very little was known about that murder. But I was 185 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:50.279 able to dig into it and find out things from 186 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.879 the people involved in them in the investigation. And again 187 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.960 that's the case where William Hagma just did not have 188 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.440 the information, and really there's no reason why he would 189 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.600 have because it came out in a different way and 190 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.120 was not in just the regular confession that he attended. 191 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.200 But again we can get into that later, but these 192 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.840 are the little unique things that make my book so different. 193 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:19.559 Right now, let's go back to Theodore Robert Bundy tell 194 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:24.559 us about everyone is yearning for what was the background 195 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:26.919 of Ted Bundy, and then they try to make some 196 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.840 correlation between his early life and this later monstrous acts. 197 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.000 But at least in this particular case, let's let's go 198 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.679 back to the As far as you did your research 199 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.000 about his family life, his upbringing, what is Ted Bright 200 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:41.960 Bundy really like? 201 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:48.320 Well, Ted Bundy is kind of an enigma. Even when 202 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.200 you look at his life. From everything that we know, 203 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.360 we can start to make judgments on when things went 204 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.080 wrong and perhaps even why. But there's there's there's an 205 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:02.960 oddity about his life because the person that developed there. 206 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.639 If you look at his early life, he had some 207 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:12.200 significant problems as a young child. He is his father 208 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:17.360 was never married to his mother, Louise. She had had 209 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:22.360 an affair I don't know the duration of it, probably 210 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.679 very short with a man. They believe his name is 211 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:30.320 Jack Worthington. He was a sailor that, as I say 212 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:32.720 my book, blew in from the Second World War. But 213 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:39.039 he didn't have any intention of fathering anything well, these things, 214 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.960 once Bundy learned them later, they were traumatic to him. 215 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.320 But the things that he would learn later can't explain 216 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.320 away some of the odd things from his childhood, because 217 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:55.399 we know Louise was exceedingly good to him. Louise loved him, 218 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:57.600 just like she loved all the children that came later. 219 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:02.679 So it wasn't anything within Leui, and it wasn't anything 220 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:07.039 with his stepfather, or not a stepfather, but his adoptive father, 221 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.879 Johnny Bundy. That's where he gets his name Bundy. So 222 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.080 it's not anything intrinsic to how they raised him. But 223 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.559 for example, when they were living in Philadelphia, an area 224 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:24.039 of a Philadelphia, and she had gone back home with 225 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.679 Theodore as a baby, and they stayed there a while, 226 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:33.919 and one of Louisa's sisters, his aunt, said that she 227 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.679 woke up one morning and Theodore had raised the covers 228 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:42.960 of her bed and he was placing kitchen knives with 229 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.080 the tip pointed at her around her body. 230 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:46.919 Now, I'm not. 231 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.360 A psychiatrist and I'm not a psychologist, but I can 232 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:55.120 tell you now, for a child to do that unprovoked, 233 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:02.279 it speaks of significant damnitage in my mind, and a 234 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:07.080 very strange mindset. There's another thing in my book where 235 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.399 it could be the same aunt or another. She was 236 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:15.960 standing at a train station with Ted at about dusk, 237 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:20.519 and she said that he almost morphed into something else, 238 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:25.879 he transformed into some his personality change, and even though 239 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.759 he was a child, she said it frightened her. So 240 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.080 there were some significant things going on with Ted Bundy 241 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.960 early on. It sounds to me like the fracturing of 242 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:43.240 his personality happened early in his life for whatever reason, 243 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:47.200 and then when the tough things came along in life, 244 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:53.279 things that are genuinely not pleasant, he was not able 245 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:58.799 to adapt and roll with the punches, and really things 246 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.639 got worse, and the way he responded to it early 247 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:08.639 on he learned to live with a mask. Okay, he 248 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:14.600 became Ted Bundy on the outside to people, and then 249 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:18.559 the real person on the inside that he even he 250 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:23.320 himself didn't understand. So you have a developing of a 251 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:27.559 very odd character. And even though he can't explain it, 252 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.600 he tried to compensate for it as he grew up, 253 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.799 presenting certain masks even though he knew things weren't right 254 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.960 on the inside. But at the time, this is before 255 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:44.919 his predatory years. This is when he knew he was strange, 256 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:52.039 but he couldn't explain it. As that predatory personality developed, 257 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.720 and there were additions of other things in his life, 258 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:04.679 particularly sexual things fantasies but not the normal kind, mixed 259 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.639 with violence against women, as those things came into his 260 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:16.480 life that helped him build this predatory personality that he had, 261 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:18.279 which of course ultimately. 262 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.279 Led the murder. Now let's talk about because as you 263 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.080 talk about us, you know we're not psychologists, but certainly 264 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:29.639 we have heard stories where psychologists make conclusions, obviously psychological 265 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.399 conclusions on what happened in this case Ted Bundy's life. Now, 266 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.679 a couple I think important factors to interpret whoever you want, 267 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.960 is that the person he thought it was a sister, 268 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.440 he found out discovered that was actually his mother, and 269 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.840 who he thought his parents were actually his grandparents. Now, 270 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.639 tell us when this happened and from all the research 271 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.759 that you particularly did, not necessarily everyone else, But what 272 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.279 you did was what did you find in terms of 273 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.120 how traumatic was that event when he did find out, 274 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:03.799 and when did he find out, and what were the 275 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.839 circumstances in him being that information being revealed to him? 276 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.440 Right? Yeah, that's a very good question. Actually it's actually 277 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.200 two questions. First of all, the Bundie family years ago 278 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.480 cut themselves off from anything having to do with the media. 279 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.720 I never was able to ascertain. 280 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.960 Exer, Hello, it is Ryan. 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And 290 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.920 lived at Chumba lain necessary where everybody lost in terms conditions, 291 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:54.359 aating loss. 292 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.880 Exactly when Louise Bundy said, well, I'm not your aunt, 293 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:02.920 I'm your mother. May have been younger than later, but 294 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:09.640 she hid from him a long time that he was illegitimate. Okay, 295 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.119 because I don't think he found out he was illegitimate 296 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.799 until he was much much older when he found the 297 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.480 birth certificate. And there's even two stories floating around about 298 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.799 that I believe, and I covered this in the book, 299 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.119 but I think one is he just discovered it on 300 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.640 his own, or he got into a verbal argument with 301 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:34.720 his cousin, and his cousin had he had knowledge of 302 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.079 this right, and then he said something and then ted 303 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.319 went and looked it up and then basically kind of 304 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.839 internally came unglued. Now I'm not sure. I was never 305 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:50.279 able to ascertain when he learned that his mother was 306 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.279 actually his mother. I think he learned that pretty early on. 307 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:59.079 I think so, but I can't prove that. But I 308 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.680 do know that at the illegitimate aspect, he didn't know 309 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.319 until later. And that's one of the things I was 310 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:09.559 talking about. It's never a nice thing or a pleasant 311 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.319 thing to learn that your father took off. But if 312 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.599 you have a normal personality, you can adapt. These are 313 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:22.960 the things that he could not handle, and it created 314 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:28.880 significant rage in him, which was recorded later on by 315 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.039 some people who were doing studies of him or you know, 316 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.400 writing court reports and stuff. Things would come. 317 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:36.160 Out and. 318 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:43.079 So these things didn't just simmer in Bundy, and he 319 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:47.039 couldn't he couldn't turn them loose. In fact, his friends 320 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.920 would say things looks like dead, being illegitimate. It's just 321 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.400 not that big a deal. Because these guys who were 322 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.119 his friends are thinking, what difference does it make. You've 323 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:59.039 got parents that love you, even though you have problems 324 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.960 with your adoptive. Your mother loves you and your adoptive 325 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.240 father loves you. I mean, your life is moving on. 326 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:06.839 That big a deal. But to Ted it was see 327 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.680 what I'm saying, and so they festered. These things festered 328 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.640 within him. 329 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:14.599 Now to add to this another very traumatic event, and 330 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.960 this is recorded in probably every book that I've or 331 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:21.559 every bit of information that I've seen, is that he 332 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:25.720 has a particular relationship with a woman. He really puts 333 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.880 her up on a pedestal. Like I mentioned last night, 334 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.440 he really respects her achievement, her family status, her wealth. 335 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.079 This is the kind of person he aspires to. And 336 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.920 it is almost almost like the Great Expectations story where 337 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.920 he really he really doesn't fit in and that's one 338 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.559 of his fears of being discovered in that way, and 339 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.400 his biggest fear comes true. She rejects him. He's just 340 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.440 not marriage material. His ambition and his desire and his potential, 341 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.400 just not enough tell us about this woman and his effect, 342 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:03.119 and also that the talk of these similarity in looks 343 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.680 characteristic wise the looks of a further victim. So tell 344 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:08.000 us a little bit about both those. 345 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:12.359 Things, please, Okay, I've seen one picture of Diane Edwards. 346 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.480 That's her real name. There's only a few people in 347 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.200 the book that I don't use their real name, but 348 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.200 I gave her another name of the book and put 349 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.000 the life of me. I can't remember what it is. 350 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.920 Is been allowed since I've read the book, and god 351 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:25.680 knows a few years as I've done the research. But 352 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.279 her name was Diane Edwards. I've seen one picture of her. 353 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.240 She was a very very good looking a woman with 354 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:35.279 that question, and I'm sure Theodore was a little intimidated 355 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:39.720 by that. However, he did like her, and I don't 356 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:41.920 know whether he viewed her as a prize or what. 357 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.240 She also came from a wealthy family in San Francisco, 358 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:54.279 and she was in his mind, I believe. And of 359 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:56.640 course you got to remember, he's not thinking like you 360 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.319 were me or or somebody else that you know, if 361 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.559 you say something to they can relate in a normal way. 362 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.440 I don't know everything driving him in this relationship. But 363 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.240 she would be I believe, in his mind, the epitome 364 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.960 of what the kind of woman he would want right now. 365 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.440 At the same time, I don't believe that he felt 366 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:21.519 like he was up to her status and even and 367 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:26.039 this is something that people miss sometimes, even in the 368 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:33.400 relationship with her, he could not refrain from some sociopathic 369 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.440 tendencies even with her, like she used to become irritated. 370 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.039 So I've been told, and I've seen the reports where 371 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.799 he would use her credit card without asking. That doesn't 372 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.920 that doesn't both well. I mean, you know, you ought 373 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.039 to ask if he's not even married yet, it would 374 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:50.920 it would it would both well if you ask your 375 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:53.480 girlfriend if you could borrow a credit card. Apparently he 376 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.160 had done that and she didn't like it. But the 377 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.240 thing about Diane Edwards was is that And I talked 378 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.599 to people that had ned Diane in social circles and 379 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.200 they said she was a very nice lady, very nice looking. 380 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.000 The guy and one guy told me she's very nice looking, 381 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:10.359 and so he you know, and I guess they thought 382 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.480 that they made a good couple. But but when Ted 383 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.799 started to have problems later academic because Ted would go 384 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:27.799 from doing well academically to maybe not doing so well. 385 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:31.160 This and other aspects of him, of her person of 386 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.039 his personality that she didn't like. She eventually cut the 387 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:41.039 relationship off, which really damaged him. And then later and 388 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.599 we can get into this later he came back and 389 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:49.400 won her again right before he started committing murders, at 390 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.200 least the murders of nineteen seventy four, and he could 391 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.319 have committed murders pride of them. But in nineteen seventy 392 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.359 four with delnda Ann Healing murder, that's when he said 393 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.119 his course, and he said his face to nothing but murder, 394 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.160 and he was going to keep killing until he was 395 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:04.680 called or killed or what have you. He was never 396 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:09.079 going to stop, but he would then at a later date, 397 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:12.880 right before the murders started, he won her back. But 398 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.960 then it was not for any other reason other than 399 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.039 to win in this situation and then redump her. But 400 00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:22.240 she had a profound effect on his life without question, 401 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.359