1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,599 Speaker 1: Golf Smarter number three hundred and fifty three, published on 2 00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:06,719 October sixteen, twenty twelve. 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 2: Welcome to golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,679 insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the 5 00:00:15,679 --> 00:00:21,719 Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,600 interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations 7 00:00:26,719 --> 00:00:30,239 like this that are no longer available in any podcast app. 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: Sports marketing was a very different beast in nineteen fifty 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,880 five than it is in twenty twelve. 10 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:38,399 Speaker 3: It was and a lot of these players made their 11 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:42,000 money and made it from countcown to tournament to tournament 12 00:00:42,039 --> 00:00:45,560 by playing money games in between the tournaments, playing the 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,840 best player in that area, the best player at the club, 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,640 and they'd play in some big money games, and some 15 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:54,039 of them made a lot more money when they weren't 16 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:57,320 playing tournaments than when they were. I went down to Hickory, 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,679 North Carolina, just last week to see Jack Pluck and 18 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:02,920 some of these other legends because they were up there 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,640 playing a pro am at Hickory, which is where the 20 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:08,400 Champions Tour event was. But I was sitting next to 21 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:11,400 a guy he's a good friend to Doug Sanders. Doug 22 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:14,719 Sanders is a great player, a little later era than Black. 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,640 He came along one in the late fifties and early sixties. 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,280 He won a lot of tournaments and he very nearly 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,640 won the British Open. He missed a short cut at 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,120 Saint Andrews in nineteen seventy and he ended in a 27 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:26,799 playoff with Jack Nicholas and lost. 28 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 4: Sounds like another book for you. 29 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, this though I met. He told me that Doug 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,159 Sanders made a lot more money playing Jen Rummy than 31 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,799 he was playing golf. She said, numbers like twenty five 32 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,680 thirty fifty thousand dollars playing Jen Rummy when he wasn't 33 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:44,719 out on the golf course. 34 00:01:50,799 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: Golf's greatest upset at the nineteen fifty five US Open 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,359 with author Neil Sagabel. 36 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 4: This is Golf. 37 00:01:56,719 --> 00:02:01,799 Speaker 2: Smarter, sharing tips and insights from golfers and golf professionals 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,159 to help lower your score. 39 00:02:03,599 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 4: It's worked for your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the 40 00:02:06,959 --> 00:02:08,080 Golf Smarter podcast. 41 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,599 Speaker 3: Neil, good to be here, Fred, thanks for having me on. 42 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:14,599 Speaker 4: Thank you for reaching out and mentioning in LinkedIn that 43 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,240 you had. 44 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:18,879 Speaker 1: This book because it was kind of perfect for the 45 00:02:18,879 --> 00:02:23,439 Golf Smarter podcast, and for some interesting reason, I thought 46 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:26,520 it was perfect for twenty twelve because this sports year 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,520 has had its own list of upsets, and we can 48 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,360 get into more about that in a minute, But most 49 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:39,319 recently in golf, the twenty twelve Ryder Cup. I don't 50 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,439 know if it was necessarily an upset, but it was 51 00:02:41,479 --> 00:02:45,280 an amazing comeback and a long shot at best on Sunday. 52 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,439 But we also had the US Open in San Francisco 53 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:56,120 at the Olympic Club here in twenty twelve, and your 54 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,840 story talks about the US Open back in nineteen. 55 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,719 Speaker 3: Fifty Yeah, well, this year, this is the Open play 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,719 at the Olympic Club. The one in nineteen fifty five 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,000 was the first, and that's where Hogan and Fleck showed 58 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,240 up in all the other greats of that era. And interestingly, 59 00:03:19,159 --> 00:03:21,319 it was only the second US Open plate on the 60 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:24,680 West Coast, so up until that time, the US Open 61 00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:29,360 had been more or less an East Coast championship. 62 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,759 Speaker 1: Most sports are our East Coast centric, at least from 63 00:03:33,759 --> 00:03:38,000 the writer's perspective. What was the first event played on 64 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:38,639 the West coast? 65 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: Do you remember so? 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, the first US Open played on the West Coast 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:44,639 was at. 68 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:47,159 Speaker 4: Riviera, then Los Angeles. 69 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it was the first US Open that 70 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,680 ben Hogan won. 71 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:52,479 Speaker 1: Oh. 72 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,759 Speaker 4: Interesting. Interesting. 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,879 Speaker 1: So let's set this up because during the TV broad 74 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,520 cast of the twenty twelve US OPE, and there was 75 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,000 a lot of talk about Jack Fleck and you know, 76 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:06,719 like they love to go into the history of it, 77 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,919 but specifically Ben Hogan at the time was dominant. 78 00:04:13,759 --> 00:04:14,319 Speaker 4: He was. 79 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,079 Speaker 1: It was just a given that Ben Hogan would be 80 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,199 there at the end, battling for the title or just 81 00:04:22,319 --> 00:04:25,480 running away with it. And this was the case again, 82 00:04:25,639 --> 00:04:28,959 but it had been for those who aren't familiar, it 83 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:32,000 had been a tumultuous time for Ben Hogan leading up 84 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,360 to this. Let's start with some background about the big Boy. 85 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:38,759 Let's give us some background about Ben Hogan. 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,959 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people who followed GoF I've heard 87 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,759 of Hogan for sure, because he I think he revolutionized 88 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,319 the game in a few different ways. And part of 89 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:57,079 that was because I think it was not easy for 90 00:04:57,199 --> 00:04:59,399 him to make it out there on the PGA tour. 91 00:04:59,519 --> 00:05:02,000 We know of him as the great player now, but 92 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,079 he struggled. He was not as talented as as guys 93 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,000 like say Byron Nelson, who came out of the same 94 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,199 caddy yard as Hogan, so he really had to work 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,000 to hone his golf swing. He fought a hook as 96 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:23,240 a younger player, and he took him three tries really 97 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,600 to catch on. On the PGA Tour, he didn't win 98 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:29,240 his first tournament until nineteen forty, so he'd been out 99 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,720 there a while. And he didn't win his first major 100 00:05:32,959 --> 00:05:37,319 until nineteen forty six. And I can't remember, so that 101 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,480 would have made him I guess almost Well, he's probably 102 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:47,360 about thirty four years old. So it took Hogan a while. 103 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:51,680 And there's that famous saying of finding the secret in 104 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,480 the dirt. He found his swing through a lot of 105 00:05:54,519 --> 00:06:00,600 practice and no, and I don't know uptill that point 106 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,439 in time anyone had worked harder to develop his golf 107 00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:06,839 swing or develop his game at Ben Hogan. So he's 108 00:06:06,879 --> 00:06:11,680 famous for his work ethic. About the time that he 109 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:16,000 was really coming into his home Nelson Byron Nelson retired 110 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,959 in nineteen forty six, he was really considered the top 111 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,199 man in golf, but Hogan was coming along. Snead was 112 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,600 a great as well. Sam Snead. About the time Hogan 113 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,519 was really starting to get it, he won the PGA 114 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:35,319 Championship in forty six. He won his first US Open 115 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,240 in nineteen forty eight at Riviera in Los Angeles. He 116 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:44,879 had that terrible car accident in early nineteen forty nine. 117 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,319 He was coming back from Arizona, I think it was 118 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,639 the Phoenix Open with his wife and he was driving 119 00:06:52,639 --> 00:06:56,160 home to Fort Worth and they were on a foggy 120 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,360 West Texas Highway and a Greyhound bus had pulled out 121 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:04,560 to pass a truck and Hogan and his wife in 122 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,079 their Cadillac had a head on collision that they were 123 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:10,399 just it was a miracle that they both survived in 124 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,040 and Hogan was in a hospital for two months and 125 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:17,720 almost died. And when he came out of that hospital, 126 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:23,839 his doctors never really thought he'd played golf again. He 127 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,040 was fortunate to be walking around, but he was a 128 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:34,480 very driven man and he made a comeback what some 129 00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:37,519 I think to this day considered maybe one of the greatest, 130 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,720 if not the greatest comebacks in the history of sports. 131 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,759 Something less than two years after he had this accident, 132 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:48,199 he came back and he won the US Open in 133 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,720 nineteen fifty at Marion. And so we see this Hogan 134 00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:58,879 who now because of his physical condition. He hasd to 135 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,480 go through this regiment just to play, prepare himself to play. 136 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,600 He'd soak himself, he'd soak in a hot tub with 137 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:10,480 epsom salts. He took asper, and he had to limen 138 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,120 on his legs and wrap his legs and elastic manages. 139 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,319 And after this accident he only plays in about six 140 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:22,319 or seven tournaments a year, but he becomes this machine 141 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,319 of a golfer who is incredibly tough and determined in 142 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,240 the major championships. So after Hogan has his accident, he 143 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,120 actually goes on to win more majors than he'd won 144 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,879 before that, And coming into the nineteen fifty five US 145 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:44,840 Open Olympic, he'd won four of the last six US 146 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:49,159 Opens he'd played in, which is pretty remarkable, and he'd 147 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:56,080 won nine majors total. And in nineteen fifty three he 148 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,559 had probably one of the greatest years in golf at 149 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,799 any professional golf or has ever had. He won what 150 00:09:02,919 --> 00:09:05,960 they ended up calling the Hogan Slam. He won the Masters, 151 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,039 the US Open, and the British Open, and I believe 152 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:15,320 all by record scores amazing, and they called it to 153 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:18,480 Hogan Slam. And it was at a time when the 154 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,600 PGA Championship. Was it overlapped the British Open and you 155 00:09:23,639 --> 00:09:29,240 couldn't play both, really, Hogan, he might not have been 156 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,759 played during the same week, but because of travel, I 157 00:09:32,759 --> 00:09:36,039 can't remember if Hogan took a boat over to Scotland 158 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,000 or if he flew. But it was hard you really 159 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:42,799 practice from a practical standpoint, you couldn't play in both. 160 00:09:42,919 --> 00:09:45,200 So he went and played the British. 161 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: Right and right and they were the British and the 162 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,639 PGA Championship were happening at the same time that year. 163 00:09:53,399 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 4: Is that true? 164 00:09:55,279 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: And that's why he They were either happening at the 165 00:09:59,039 --> 00:10:01,399 same time or they were so close together that it 166 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,600 wasn't practical for him to get back play the PGA. 167 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,399 The PGA was a match play championship at that time, okay, 168 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,799 And I don't remember how many matches he had to 169 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,679 play to win it, but he had to play several matches. 170 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: Actually, just I just found it up on Wikipedia. And 171 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,200 that year in fifty three. First of all, Hogan was 172 00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:26,600 forty at the time, which is amazing in itself when 173 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,879 you look at today's players. But in nineteen fifty three, 174 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:36,080 the PGA Championship was from July first to seven one 175 00:10:36,159 --> 00:10:40,639 through seven, and the Open Championship played at Carnousti that 176 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,519 year was July six through ten, so they did overlap. Yeah, 177 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:51,519 so you know, getting the Hogan Slam, he wasn't given 178 00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:53,399 the opportunity to get the Grand Slam. 179 00:10:54,759 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that terminology I don't really know for my 180 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:04,639 research what they were saying, if that was something that 181 00:11:04,639 --> 00:11:07,600 people were even talking about at that time, you know, 182 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,720 calling it the Grand Slam. But he won. He was 183 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,559 professional athlete of the year, not just golfer. In nineteen 184 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,480 fifty three, there was something called the hiccock Belt maybe 185 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,840 you've heard of or maybe some of your listeners have 186 00:11:23,919 --> 00:11:27,720 heard of. He was awarded to the top professional athlete 187 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,639 of the year. And Hogan wanted in nineteen fifty three 188 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:33,399 to the end of this remarkable year where he won. 189 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:38,080 He won three majors and I think he won he 190 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,639 played in six tournaments and he won five. So and 191 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,159 he never went back to the British Isles. He played. 192 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,080 He went there once he won it, and that was 193 00:11:49,159 --> 00:11:49,759 it was. 194 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:51,279 Speaker 4: It wouldn't been there done that. 195 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: A lot of Americans didn't play in the British Open 196 00:11:56,279 --> 00:11:59,519 in those days. It was it typically costs more to 197 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,080 go over there and play it. Then you got out 198 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:10,679 of it. And only some of Hogan's professional friends said, 199 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,879 then you need you need to go over there and 200 00:12:12,919 --> 00:12:15,600 play that to be considered. You know, that's kind of 201 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,200 a full career, and as the great player you are, 202 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,759 you need to do it. And so he did, and 203 00:12:21,879 --> 00:12:22,960 he wanted Carnousti. 204 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,919 Speaker 1: He really defies what we know today and just it's 205 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,679 amazing that he was able to come back with you 206 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,120 know way science and medicine is today, what they could 207 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:44,759 have done for him. But he was in a lot 208 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:48,120 of pain, he was limping, and he made it work, 209 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:51,320 I mean, and then he came back and played better 210 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:51,799 than ever. 211 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 4: Truly incredible story. Truly an incredible story of a comeback. 212 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: So here he is now, he's he won in fifty three, 213 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,720 he had the sl the Hogan Slam in fifty three, 214 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,600 fifty four, he doesn't win any majors. Nineteen fifty five 215 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:18,399 he is expected to dominate again and they come to 216 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,279 San Francisco, but there's something that gets in the way 217 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,440 of his victory. There there's another character. Give us the 218 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,759 background on Jack Fleck. 219 00:13:29,039 --> 00:13:33,639 Speaker 3: Well, Jack Fleck is a totally different golfer in nineteen 220 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:38,399 fifty five. He's one of the guys that's in the 221 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,960 field playing these tournaments, but he is not well known. 222 00:13:42,039 --> 00:13:48,360 He's never won on tour. He's mostly been what I 223 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,960 call a Winner Tour player, meaning he was a club pro. 224 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,240 He had two pros or two clubs he managed in Iowa, 225 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,919 and from late December to early April he'd go play 226 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:09,519 the Winner Tour out in California, Arizona, Texas, and Louisiana 227 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,879 up until the time when Golf SI's an open at 228 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:15,639 his home courses in the beginning of April, and there 229 00:14:15,639 --> 00:14:18,279 were a lot of guys that did that. It was 230 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,399 tough to play the full tour. There just wasn't that 231 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,559 much money. So he had tournament experience, but he wasn't 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,320 really known, and he was i'd say a middle of 233 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,080 the pack player. He'd make cuts and he could finish 234 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,840 in the top twenty and he might make a few checks. 235 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,320 But he was trying to see if he was good 236 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,519 enough really to play out there. And at the beginning, 237 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:48,960 at the end of the nineteen fifty four season, he 238 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,320 and his wife had a talk and she said, why 239 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,039 don't you give it two years and see if you 240 00:14:53,039 --> 00:14:57,120 can play the full tour and see if you can 241 00:14:57,159 --> 00:15:00,960 succeed up there and make enough money make it worthwhile. 242 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,759 By this time, Jack's thirty three years old, so he's gonna. 243 00:15:06,559 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: Make it sense. 244 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,399 Speaker 1: You know what, Neil, you make it sound so gentle. 245 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:11,039 Why don't you know his wife saying why didn't you 246 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:15,080 give it two years? I kind of believe anybody who's 247 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,759 married for any period of time's got to believe that. 248 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,720 It wasn't that simple of oh, why don't you just 249 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:23,120 give it two years? It was more like, all right, 250 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:25,799 you got two years. If you don't get it done, 251 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,440 then it's time to change course. Or I mean, did 252 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,960 your research show that she was that genteel about it? 253 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,639 Speaker 3: Well, it was all from Jack, because she's gone, now right, No, 254 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,440 you're you're right, I'm saying that in my tone, in 255 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,600 my style of speech. Yeah, I think it probably was 256 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:50,519 more of a challenge to him. Sure, but you know, 257 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:53,360 I think it was. In fact, When you read the book, 258 00:15:53,399 --> 00:15:56,919 you'll see quote from her where she says, go out 259 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,879 there and find out if you can if you can 260 00:15:58,919 --> 00:16:03,399 play tournament golf, full circuit, or and if you can't, 261 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,240 you'll at least get it out of your system, quoted. Now, 262 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:11,679 she ran the golf courses for him while he was gone, 263 00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:16,559 along with his assistant pro. Interesting, so she was I 264 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,879 would say that she was an encouraging influence. And if 265 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:23,759 you were talking to Jack flu today, he'd probably tell 266 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:25,960 you that she kind of pushed him out there and said, Jack, 267 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:30,480 just just go find out. Okay, you want to you 268 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:32,919 want to find out if you can play, go try 269 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,159 it and give it two years. And if you don't, hey, 270 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,879 if you're just going to come back to Island and 271 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:40,519 be a club pro. And that's the way it's going 272 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,000 to be. And there are a lot of guys like that. 273 00:16:43,759 --> 00:16:47,159 It was really hard to play. 274 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,279 Speaker 1: She said, uh, you know, Jack, just go find out. 275 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,799 So if you can pick it up right around there, 276 00:16:54,799 --> 00:16:55,799 I'll clean it up. 277 00:16:55,759 --> 00:16:56,279 Speaker 4: And edit it. 278 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: I think you're right about what you said, Fred. She did. 279 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:03,600 It was sort of a challenge to him, and she said, Jack, 280 00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:06,599 get out there and go find out, and if you 281 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,960 can't make it in two years, you'll get tournament and 282 00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:14,160 playing tournament golf out of your system. So it was 283 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:20,039 a challenge. And he had said to her at the 284 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,200 end of the fifty four season, just privately, something he 285 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,960 told me, and it's also in the book. He wanted 286 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,240 to see if he could play what he called championship 287 00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:34,720 golf before Hogan and Sneed retired. So he looked up 288 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,960 to those guys and I think he wanted to see 289 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,960 if he could play at that level. Now, he wasn't 290 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,920 going to be Hogan or Sneed, but he wanted to 291 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,160 be able to see if he could really compete and 292 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:51,720 play better than he'd played up to that point. So 293 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,720 this was his shots. It really was his chance, his 294 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:58,640 window of opportunity to go try to play the full tour. 295 00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 4: Had he played in major. 296 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: Before, yes, he had, he played. You know whereas Hogan 297 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,839 comes into fifty five, he's won four US Opens and 298 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,599 finished very high on many of the others that he 299 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,440 played in. Jack flex only played in two. He's only 300 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:24,480 played in two, and the first one was in nineteen 301 00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:28,200 fifty where Hogan made that miracle comeback. So the first 302 00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:32,480 Open that Jack played and he missed the cut. And 303 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:35,920 then Jack played again in nineteen fifty three where which 304 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:40,079 was a part of Hogan's Hogan's slam year where he 305 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,160 won the three majors, and that was that Oakmont and 306 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,000 in that one Jack finished something like, I think he 307 00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:52,839 finished fifty second, twenty six shots behind Ben Hogan. So 308 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:58,599 he's played in fifty four. He tried to qualify, but 309 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,279 he didn't qualify. He didn't play in fifty four, and 310 00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:05,000 he had to qualify in fifty five. This is an 311 00:19:05,079 --> 00:19:10,359 era where pretty much the whole field has to qualify 312 00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:13,519 just to get into the US Open. There are all 313 00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:16,319 the exemptions that there are now to get into the field. 314 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:23,079 You're looking at all, but seventeen players who qualified around 315 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:24,759 the country can get into the field. 316 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 4: So then talk about the qualification process. 317 00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: There were seventeen players that were exempt into the nineteen 318 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:35,920 fifty five US Open field out of one hundred and 319 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,759 sixty two that started. So from that, you can just 320 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,960 imagine that you have all these players qualifying, and a 321 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,000 lot of them are really great players. There are players 322 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,160 that have been playing on the tour and winning money, 323 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:49,839 but you didn't have the exemptions like you do now. 324 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,640 You know, where there's all this different criteria for getting in, 325 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,680 whether you're in the top fifty in the world and 326 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:56,880 all these other things. 327 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 4: Plus the money. 328 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: You know, probably well, definitely the money wasn't it like 329 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:05,519 it is today. But if you were probably out of 330 00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:08,720 the top what five, top top ten that you really 331 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:09,559 didn't win anything. 332 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,759 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. So what you had in fifty five, 333 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:19,319 the guys that were in were the last five players 334 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:24,319 to win the US Open, the players who had finished 335 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,480 in the top ten in nineteen fifty four, they're in. 336 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,240 And then you have the winners of the US Amateur 337 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:36,759 and the British Amateur they're in. And I think that 338 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,359 pretty much covers the criteria cheria for being exempt into 339 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,359 the nineteen fifty five US Open. Field neck ends up 340 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,960 being about seventeen players. 341 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 5: The other. 342 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 3: Going to try to do math here, other one hundred 343 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,400 and forty five players have to qualify. These are pros 344 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,319 and amateurs, club pros, guys who've been playing the tour. 345 00:20:58,839 --> 00:21:06,359 They're qualifying at locations around the country. They were total 346 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,480 of over fifteen hundred that went to qualifying for one 347 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:13,680 hundred and forty five spots around the country. Wow, Jack 348 00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:18,440 qualified in the Chicago sectional and there might have been 349 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,000 I don't know, a hundred row a few more in 350 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,400 that sectional and maybe six seven spots. So it was, 351 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,880 as some of the players told me, it was just 352 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,720 an honor. You had to be a great golfer just 353 00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:36,960 to play in the US. So a lot of guys 354 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,759 felt like just getting to the tournament, playing in it 355 00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:44,160 was a huge honor, and they were just it said 356 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,240 that they are a good golfer just being in the tournament. 357 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: That actually could turn into a lot of work for 358 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,599 them in those days, just to be able to say 359 00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:01,000 that they qualified for the tournament. They can become the 360 00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:04,400 pro for at a club for life, and really that 361 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:10,160 that was probably a more secure profession at the time. 362 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,440 If you talk about that being a profession than being 363 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,240 a touring. 364 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,599 Speaker 3: Golfer, that's absolutely correct, because there just wasn't There just 365 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:22,640 wasn't the money. Yeah, professional golf, playing tournament golf, and 366 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:27,920 there were the purses ranged from this is total purses 367 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,440 for the whole field. They might range from about ten 368 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:34,519 thousand dollars to thirty thousand dollars the winner would get, 369 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,720 so anywhere from two thousand dollars to five thousand dollars 370 00:22:39,799 --> 00:22:43,960 was the winning check. And all the guys, you know, 371 00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:45,599 guys that are in the Hall of Fame now that 372 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,039 I've got to talk to, they said it was just tough. 373 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,880 It was tough playing out there. You could, you know, 374 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,599 I talked to Donold Palmer. You could make the cut 375 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,880 and not earn a chat you had. There were only 376 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,039 about thirty money places in a lot of tournaments, so 377 00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:07,400 you could make the cut and not get a check. 378 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,119 Jack tells the story. Jack Fleck tells a story where 379 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,680 I don't know, I think it might have been in 380 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,720 the nineteen fifty three San Diego Open. He finished to 381 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,599 think twenty seventh and his check for the week was 382 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,599 thirteen dollars and seventy five cents. And after he paid 383 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,839 his caddy for the week twenty one or twenty two dollars, 384 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,960 he came out, you know, eight dollars in the hole. 385 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 4: It's not good. That's not a way to make a living. 386 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: And get hear why the wife would be going, uh, okay, yeah, 387 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,400 you got this much time and then you're getting back 388 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:49,799 to work. 389 00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know, even the top players, Ben Hogan, Sansny, 390 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,240 Jimmy Demaret, Lloyd Mangrim, Currie middle Cough, Julius Sporls, these 391 00:24:01,319 --> 00:24:05,839 top players, they all had club jobs too, and some 392 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,160 of them were more they Some of the top players, 393 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,920 like Hogan, maybe didn't have to spend a lot of 394 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:18,640 time at the club. Turn his check, But that did 395 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,440 augment their income because there just wasn't a lot of 396 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:24,160 money to be made at the tournaments. And then if 397 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,559 you're a top player too, there were some endorsements and 398 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,920 equipment contracts and things like that, and they weren't anywhere close. Yeah. 399 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, the endorsement thing really didn't get going until what 400 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,440 the nineties or something, when I guess Michael Jordan really 401 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,640 put it over the top. But also was the Olympic 402 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,160 the endorsements when the Olympics were in Los Angeles in 403 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,920 eighty four and you wereros really got the official sponsor. 404 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,960 So it was a very different. Sports marketing was a 405 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,119 very different beast in nineteen fifty five than it is 406 00:24:58,559 --> 00:24:59,640 in twenty twelve. 407 00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:04,559 Speaker 3: It was, and a lot of these players too, made 408 00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:07,279 their money and made it from town to town and 409 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,599 tournament to tournament by playing money games in between the tournaments, 410 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,680 you know, playing the best player of that in that area, 411 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:18,640 the best player at the club where they were playing, 412 00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:21,759 and they'd play in some big money games and they 413 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:26,200 fell of them made a lot more money not when 414 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,160 they weren't playing tournaments than when they were. You know, 415 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,119 I was at I went down to Hickory, North Carolina 416 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:35,920 just last week to see Jack Fleck in some of 417 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,000 these other legends, because they were up there playing a 418 00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:42,119 pro am at Hickory, which is where the Champions Tour 419 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,279 event was. Fred Funk won yesterday. But I was sitting 420 00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:50,000 next to a guy who I don't know if he's 421 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,079 he's a good friend to Doug Sanders. And Doug Sanders 422 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,680 was a great player a little later era than Black. 423 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,359 He came along war in the late fifties and early sixties, 424 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,079 and he won. He won a lot of tournaments, and 425 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,960 he very nearly won the British Open. He missed a 426 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,279 short putt at Saint Andrews in nineteen seventy and he 427 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,960 ended up in a playoff with Jack Nicholson lost. That's 428 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:20,480 what a lot of people remember about Doug Sanders. 429 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 4: But sounds like another book for you. 430 00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:27,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, this fellow I met speaking of this income situation 431 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,960 back in those days, he told me that Doug Sanders 432 00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:35,759 made a lot more money playing Jen Rummy than he 433 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:41,599 was playing golf because he would make he said, numbers 434 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,000 like twenty five thirty fifty thousand dollars playing Jen Rummy 435 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:52,119 when he wasn't out on the golf course. So That's 436 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,200 just one example. But they they hustled, you know, because 437 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,039 he was just a. 438 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: Guy looking for a game, doesn't matter what it was, right, 439 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:00,359 he was. 440 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of them were like that. 441 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,559 Speaker 4: Interesting. Interesting. 442 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:08,039 Speaker 1: So now there's a couple of ways I want to 443 00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:11,440 go with this and I and I want to see 444 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,000 which you're more comfortable with starting because I'm going to 445 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:15,079 try to get you to do both. 446 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 4: I want to go talk about. 447 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,319 Speaker 1: The different people that you interviewed and their recollections of 448 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,440 that weekend and how things went. But I also would 449 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:27,720 love if you could take us through now it was 450 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:29,759 it a three or four day tournament at that time? 451 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,079 Speaker 3: It was a three day tournament which ended up having 452 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,720 a fourth day because of the playoffs. 453 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: Right, So when they but they would play four rounds 454 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,960 over the three days. 455 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 3: Right, they play That's right, they played four rounds over 456 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,160 the three days. Right, they played thirty six on the 457 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:50,799 final day. 458 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 4: Unbelievable. And Ben Hogan now has to walk. 459 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: That thirty six holes too, which is for him, it's 460 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,920 painful enough just to walk a golf course. Let Loane 461 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,240 walk thirty six holes. Lead Loan walk thirty six holes 462 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:08,920 in San Francisco at the Olympic Club, which is not 463 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,720 what you call a flat golf course. 464 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: No, it wasn't easy for him to walk, and he 465 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,960 kind of complained. I mean, his legs tired, they were stiff. 466 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,240 It wasn't easy to walk that course because it's definitely 467 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,119 sloping terrain. 468 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,319 Speaker 1: So I would love so the part two of that 469 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,160 was not only talk about the people that you interviewed 470 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,279 in the research that you did for the book, but 471 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,240 to go each day through the tournament and what was 472 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:40,119 going on, and what were the high points and the 473 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,799 low points that led us to that final day when 474 00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,640 you know, on the final round, when everyone thought it 475 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,400 was over and that Hogan had just it was done, 476 00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:55,279 and the networks, you know, the broadcast element of this 477 00:28:55,359 --> 00:29:02,559 story is also very interesting. Yes it is, But so 478 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,799 how how do you want to pursue that? Which way 479 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:05,519 do you want to go with this? 480 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,119 Speaker 3: I'll go either way. I mean I can talk about 481 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,079 who I talked to, I can I can try to 482 00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:18,039 go back through through it day by day and tell you, 483 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,960 give you some snippets and tell you what what happened 484 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,480 on those days, what was going on? 485 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I think I think that that's how 486 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,880 we climax this story is the day by day. I 487 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,839 would like to talk about your research process, the people 488 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,759 you talk to and and what they remember about how 489 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:44,640 the weekend proceeded. You know, one of the all time 490 00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:48,480 favorite T shirts I've ever heard about was this swim 491 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,720 team who was a collegiate swim team that was highly 492 00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:57,759 decorated in the forties I think it was, and you know, 493 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,519 every year they would get together in heavy union and 494 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:04,240 I think for their one of the major anniversaries, they 495 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:07,240 had T shirts that were made that said the older 496 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:12,640 we get, the faster we were. And so I've got 497 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,279 to believe that some of the stories that you heard 498 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,119 were embellished a little more than others. Let's just put 499 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:21,599 it that way. 500 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. 501 00:30:24,079 --> 00:30:26,279 Speaker 3: You know it was interesting for me, Fred because I 502 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:29,519 hadn't written a book before, and so you know, in 503 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:34,079 some cases you have to you have to sift through 504 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,359 and try to understand is I don't know that any 505 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,640 player I talked to was intentionally trying to embellish anything. Okay, 506 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:46,759 I just think maybe through the fog of time you 507 00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:53,559 remember things differently. And first of all, this book really 508 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,559 focuses on Jack Fleck, and of course Ben Hogan's gone, 509 00:30:57,319 --> 00:30:59,400 and I never got a chance to talk to him, 510 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,279 and he wasn't much for talking about talking to writers 511 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:06,240 and reporters late in his life anyway, So I probably 512 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:08,640 would have never talked to Ben Hogan. But I can 513 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,400 tell you that Jack Fleck was was totally straight with me. 514 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,440 He's a very kind of black and white person. If 515 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,480 he didn't remember something, he didn't try, He didn't try 516 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:24,119 to sort of create something for me. He could just 517 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,680 tell me. And one of the things that was interesting 518 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,519 to me was Jack didn't really remember a lot of 519 00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:37,200 details about the first, second, and third rounds. He had 520 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,799 some overall remembrances about playing maybe certain holes, and about 521 00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:44,400 overall feelings he had about how he played that day 522 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,880 and what he shot, but he couldn't take me shot 523 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,039 by shot or hole by hole in any of that. 524 00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: Well that's interesting because I'm always blown away when athletes 525 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,599 can go, oh, you know, and they say, well, what 526 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,599 about what about that approach shot? I'm fourteen on Friday, 527 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,880 and they're like they know exact factly what they're talking about, 528 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,599 and I would look at him like, I don't know. 529 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,599 It blows me away that they can remember specifics like that. 530 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:10,839 So I'm glad to hear that Fleck was going eh. 531 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: He would just tell me I don't remember. And so 532 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,839 one of the challenges for me as a writer was 533 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,440 how do I, first of all, how do I recreate 534 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,279 this tournament for everyone and what happened and make you 535 00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:29,160 feel like you were there. But secondly, since it's going 536 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160 to really focus on Fleck and Hogan, how do I 537 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,079 tell you about Fleck's first two rounds when he couldn't 538 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,240 tell me a lot about them. Fortunately, that's where my 539 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:44,319 research came in. There was a lot of newspaper coverage 540 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,720 the Olympic Club where I went, the historian had information. 541 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,920 I was able to get my hands on the pairing 542 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,960 sheet for that week, the hole by whole scores. I 543 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:02,880 knew the course pretty well from what was written about it. 544 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,640 It's a different course now, but it's you know, there 545 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,359 are a lot of features about it that are the same, 546 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,039 but it's a very different course in fifty five. I 547 00:33:11,079 --> 00:33:14,039 had a lot of good information, and plus the newspaper 548 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:20,039 coverage told me things about Pluck in the first, second, 549 00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:22,160 or third rounds as well as the other players. So 550 00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:24,400 I used what I had and it was it was 551 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,000 a considerable bob of information. 552 00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 4: Well Neil. 553 00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: I hate to interrupt you here, but we've kind of 554 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,039 reached our time limit for the Golf Smarter podcast, and 555 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,960 I would obviously I have a lot more questions because 556 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,279 I've just set you up with telling us the story 557 00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:44,079 about that weekend. Could you stick around and we can 558 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,119 do a part two and make this a member's only conversation. 559 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:49,279 Speaker 3: Sure, I'd love to. 560 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,319 Speaker 4: Awesome, thank you. 561 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: So then let me let me remind the Golf Smarter 562 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,640 audience and let you know that if you'd like to 563 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,480 hear part two of this conversation and get the full 564 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:05,039 story of that weekend as best we can determine from 565 00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:11,199 the stories that we're told to Neil. Neil Sagabel is 566 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,239 the author of the book The Longest Shot, subtitled Jack Fleck, 567 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,960 Ben Hogan and Proge Golf's Greatest Upset at. 568 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 4: The nineteen fifty five US Open. 569 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:26,519 Speaker 1: It is available as a kendlebook correct as a digital yes, 570 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:32,840 and it's also on hard hard copy as well, and 571 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,440 we have it in our Golfer Smart at Golfsmarter dot com. 572 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,039 So you can just go ahead and purchase it for 573 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:41,039 yourself right there, whether you do the download version or 574 00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,519 you have it ordered as a gift for you or 575 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,519 somebody else this holiday season, purchase the book. It's a 576 00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:52,760 great story, it's an amazing story, and it's timely, mainly 577 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,880 because of the Olympic Club and the upsets and golf 578 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,760 in general. So Neil, thank you for a green to 579 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,320 stick around. Uh and I again encourage everyone to join 580 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,400 golf Smarter for members only so you can hear part 581 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,400 two of this conversation. 582 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 4: Neil, you're sticking around right, I am. 583 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 3: Thanks, thanks so much. I appreciate being on with you. 584 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,679 Speaker 1: It's time once again to welcome back Terry Kaylor, the 585 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,239 CEO of score Golf, and it's our score Zone Short 586 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,280 Game Academy. You can participate in this part of the program, 587 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,360 and we encourage you to click on the score Zone 588 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,280 Short Game Academy button at golfsmarter dot com and submit 589 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,000 your question because if your question is answered on this 590 00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:46,159 segment by Terry, you will receive a money club of 591 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,960 your choice, custom fit for you by score Golf, and 592 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:51,760 Terry will give you more information. What do we mean 593 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,440 by a money club? Because he just doesn't like to 594 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,519 use the W word anymore. Terry, how are you welcome back? 595 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:58,039 Speaker 3: I'm great for it. 596 00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 5: How are you. 597 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 4: I'm fine, Thank you very much for asking. 598 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: So we get a question here today from Joe Dolan 599 00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:07,719 of WASI in Ohio, and he says, look, if I'm 600 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,559 say about eighty yards from the pin with an open 601 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:14,960 green in front of me, and I'm between clubs a 602 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,599 sixty degree or a fifty six degree in between those two, 603 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,480 is it better for me to hit a hard sixty 604 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:23,960 degree club or it takes some off of the fifty 605 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:28,679 six degree And that's his question. My comment is, I've 606 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,280 never even understood how to take it off or hit 607 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,119 it hard. You know. It's like to me the swing, 608 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,159 if you swing harder, you're swinging that's you don't want 609 00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:41,840 to swing harder, you know. And well, so I'd love 610 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,239 to get your feedback on this too. 611 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 5: Well. I think the concept of hitting wedges hard is 612 00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:50,360 there's something you never want to do. And one of 613 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,079 the things about hitting your high loft golf clubs and 614 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:55,840 I said the debut order, but because he's playing wedges and 615 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,960 he's not playing scoring gloves, but shameless plug anyway, So 616 00:37:03,639 --> 00:37:06,199 when you're trying to hit, when you're trying to hit 617 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,440 a high lofted club harder, invariably what's going to happen 618 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:13,519 is you increase your club edge speed. All that weight 619 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,679 low along the club is going to launch that ball 620 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,280 higher and it's going to end up going shorter. And 621 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,280 I think most of your readers can say, yeah, I 622 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,920 mean I remember that I was trying to kind of 623 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,599 get on that fifty six a little bit, or get 624 00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:27,159 on that gap wedge a little bit, and I felt 625 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:29,440 the ball hit a little higher on the clubhead and 626 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,239 I swung harder, but the ball went higher and shorter. 627 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,719 These clubs are really hard to control distance with when 628 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,519 you get more than about an eighty percent swing, So 629 00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:41,400 you know, you really want to put the control pace 630 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:44,320 swing on your high loft golf clubs just in general, 631 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,519 regardless whether it's a sixty or a fifty four or 632 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,400 fifty eight or fifty two, whatever it is in your hand, 633 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,079 you put a high loft club in your hand, throttle 634 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:55,360 back your swing speed. That your full swing needs to 635 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,920 be refined from what it is with a seven iron 636 00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:01,360 or a five iron or away or hybrid or driver, 637 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,079 particularly so as you so the first part of developing 638 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:10,039 good short range performance is to get the right arsenal 639 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,000 of clubs in your in your bag, and Joe talked 640 00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:14,840 about it. He's caught between a fifty six and a sixty. 641 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,320 Get the right cup, have four degree gaps, maybe five 642 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,719 if you're a shorter hitter, and then go out and 643 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,320 learn what really is a textbook fifty six, a textbook sixty, 644 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,840 a textbook fifty two, whatever lofts you're carrying, find out 645 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,440 what distance you can produce with that control to swing 646 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,840 rather than think about hitting it, taking something off, as 647 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,199 Joe says, or hitting hard. You know, the lower club harder. 648 00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:43,599 I wrote a book number of years ago, called it 649 00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:46,199 a little booklet called a score Method, and what I 650 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,960 showed you how to do in that. It's free for 651 00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:51,599 download on our site at scoreedoff dot com. You can 652 00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:53,719 poke around, you can find this download. But what the 653 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,360 score method is all about. Once you have understood your 654 00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:01,920 quote full swing distance of these clubs, you can then 655 00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:04,719 dissect those and you should have twelve to thirteen fourteen 656 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,719 yard gaps in your full swing with your scoring clubs. 657 00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:14,400 Then you can dissect those gaps by gripping, by changing 658 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,079 your hand position. So if you grip down on that 659 00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:19,760 fifty six, for example, a half an inch to three 660 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,880 quarters of an inch you're going to see about three 661 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,920 yards come off of that Off of that distance, go 662 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,280 down an inch, you're going to see about cut in 663 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,119 half the gap between that club and the next lower club. 664 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:34,599 So now you've taken your three or four high loft 665 00:39:34,639 --> 00:39:38,079 clubs and you've given yourself six or eight quote full 666 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:41,639 swing distances. Now you've dissected your gaps. You can then 667 00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:43,960 dissect those gaps a little more by learning how to 668 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,440 open the face just a little bit or close the 669 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,440 face just a little bit. It adds a little off, 670 00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:50,559 adds a little spin there. 671 00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 4: Again. 672 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 5: I wrote this booklet called the Score Method that really 673 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,119 dives into deep detail on how to do this and Joe, 674 00:39:57,159 --> 00:39:59,159 what it does for you and for all the listeners 675 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:02,159 out there is it takes away to take a little 676 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:05,320 off or jump on it a little bit and you say, hey, 677 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,679 I'm a eighty yards. I know that's a fifty six 678 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,000 degree grip down a half an inch. Just hit it 679 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,119 and it's going to be within two or three yards 680 00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:17,519 of that eighty number, or you know it's seventy one yards, 681 00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:19,639 and I know that's a sixty degree grip down an 682 00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:22,159 inch with the facehood. It just to hear and you 683 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,960 learn how to change the relationship between you're swinging the 684 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,280 club to build these yardages in versus take a little 685 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,920 off or jump on it a little bit. 686 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 4: So, Terry, how. 687 00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:38,119 Speaker 1: Does this all fall into the feel versus method? You know, 688 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:40,199 there's a lot of conversation, there's even a lot of 689 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,880 questions that we've been receiving from people on this very topic. 690 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,199 Speaker 4: When it comes to the short game. 691 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,679 Speaker 1: You know, when you have wedge, pitching, chipping, even putting, 692 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,800 the feel versus method, how does that? 693 00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:54,119 Speaker 4: How do you interpret that? 694 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,599 Speaker 5: Well? I think first of all, let's talk about feel. 695 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,360 You have to have some feel of the golf and 696 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,000 the golf how the ball comes off the club. I mean, 697 00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:05,039 that's just essential to golf, and you get that through 698 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:07,719 hitting a lot of golf shots. You also have to 699 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,920 have a method that you can rely on. I mean, 700 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,679 Dave Felts has got a very complex method for nine o'clock, 701 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,280 eight o'clock, all this kind of stuff. And you can 702 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,039 spend a lot of time learning that if you want, 703 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,400 I take a little simpler approach because most people aren't 704 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,719 going to spend the amount of time, or if they're 705 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,159 not going to spend the amount of time, and I 706 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,639 look at say, learn what I'm just talking about with 707 00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:30,239 the score method, learn your bractet of full swing yardages, 708 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,159 and then go and practice a half swing. Uh, and 709 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,039 just learn that this is kind of the field thing. 710 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,320 And to me, a half wing is you know, if 711 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,519 you're a right handed player, your left arm goes back 712 00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:45,840 to parallel to the ground, so your your hands are 713 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,599 about shoulder high, you know, behind you, and that half swen. 714 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,800 You know, you can take your golf clubs and you 715 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,400 can practice that half swen and see what your sixty 716 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,159 does with a half wing and you're fifty six, and 717 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,039 you're fifty two, and even down into your pitch, you're nine, 718 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,719 and again, chart those yardages and know you know that's 719 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,119 a half swing sixty laid open a little this you 720 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:16,760 consist your scoring range performance. The field comes in when 721 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,960 you get down less than that, and that's really letting 722 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,159 your ie ND coordination take out. And what I like 723 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,920 to do is hit most of the of my pit 724 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,719 shots with some to a half swing because it's long 725 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,079 enough to be with them. And I developed a little 726 00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:35,400 method that I've shared with people and they really like it. 727 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,159 And that is once you really learned this half swing. 728 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,880 Now you can inject what I call the third element, 729 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,000 and that's really the field element, the speed element. So 730 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:47,960 what's really a fun exercise and it's very eye opening 731 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,639 and it's and it's it adds a lot of feratility 732 00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:53,960 to your short range performance. Is to go practice that 733 00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:57,719 half swing at three different speeds. And I use driving 734 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,000 as kind as kind of an analzi. So I have 735 00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:04,719 a half wing at country road speed, which is fifty 736 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,639 miles an hour and fifty five miles an hour well 737 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,960 under highway speed. It's not full proddle. It's just a nice, 738 00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:14,000 you know of a power pace, but well under control. 739 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:18,159 And then I practiced that halssling at what I call 740 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,519 city driving, so it's the same half wing, but it's 741 00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:24,360 a slower pace, it's more careful, it's more cautious like 742 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,880 when you're driving in the city. And then I have 743 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,440 school zone, so I'm still going into a half wing, 744 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,440 but I'm slowing everything down to the very careful, precise 745 00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:35,880 driving I would do in the school zone where little 746 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,800 kids might jump out in front of me. So if 747 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,920 that's to me, the way to gauge feel is to 748 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,039 think a feel as a pace. 749 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 3: Rather than how hard to hit it. Think about how what. 750 00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:49,559 Speaker 5: Your pace of your swing is going to be. So 751 00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:53,960 now you have created with a fun exercise. It didn't 752 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,159 take hours and hours. You created multiple distances with each 753 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:00,400 club through this full swing exercise of ripping down and 754 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,480 laying the face openness to air. You've created another whole 755 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,840 set of yardages with your half swing at regular full 756 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,360 swing speed. And then another few things you can do 757 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,280 by burying your swing pace from this country road to city, 758 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,400 driving the school zone. That's a lot for one little 759 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,960 podcast session for it. But I think that there's a 760 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,199 big picture here of how to build a system that 761 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,679 uses the field you brought to the golf course because 762 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,239 everybody has eye hand coordination. Everybody has that, and you've 763 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,119 used those qualities that you have and just a little 764 00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:37,719 bit of regimentation in hand position on the grip and 765 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,159 learning this half swing and developing these free paces there 766 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,320 are only two if you want that you develop a 767 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,679 faster pace and slower pace, and all of a sudden 768 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,280 you have a whole arsenal of shots to use inside 769 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,239 nine iron range. 770 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, thank you. I can't wait to go out 771 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,480 and start trying this now, Yami, we've talked we've talked 772 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,840 a lot about We've had talk about tour tempo on 773 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,400 here numerous times, and last time he was on, I'm 774 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,320 sorry I'm blanking on his name right now, but last 775 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,840 time he was on It'll come to me. We talked 776 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,760 about how you know the rhythm, the pace, the tempo 777 00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:19,239 of the short game is a one to one versus 778 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,360 the three to one that he has on a full swing. 779 00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:26,880 And I realized in practicing that that in my short game, 780 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,559 especially in chipping, I speed things up, and when you 781 00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:34,360 speed things up, you also get a tighter grip, your tents, 782 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,039 your shoulders up. But when I slow it down and 783 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:40,199 get that nice one to one pace, bump, bomp, bomp, 784 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,239 you know, everything works a little bit better. And so 785 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,199 combining that you know lesson with what you've just provided 786 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:51,159 just kind of cleans. 787 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:51,599 Speaker 4: It all up for me. 788 00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad I was able to do that. I 789 00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:58,360 think that the thing to keep in mind, the closer 790 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,440 you get to the flag, the slower you work, it 791 00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:05,440 becomes more of a precision game. And I'd always tell 792 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,280 the story. I think I've already breed your listeners with 793 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,599 the idea of painting a house. But when you're laying 794 00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:11,760 on the big areas of paint, you work fast, you 795 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,119 work with the powers prayer, you work with a big 796 00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:16,360 power roller, and it's just get the paint on and 797 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,840 you work with speed and power. That's your tea game 798 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,920 and your long ball and even in your middle irons. 799 00:46:21,199 --> 00:46:23,320 The closer you get to doing the trim work to 800 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,000 finish off that bank job, the slower and more meticulous 801 00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:28,440 you are. And so I kind of like on that 802 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,159 to the way to play a hole of golf. Is 803 00:46:32,159 --> 00:46:34,280 that the closer you get to the flag, the lower 804 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,519 and slower and more precise you get, the more meticulous 805 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:39,960 you get, because you know you're trying to get it 806 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,199 in the hole. It's just kind of nice thing to 807 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,880 keep you thinking. Kind of slow around the greens is 808 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:47,559 just slow everything down? 809 00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:50,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well that's driving. 810 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 5: In a parking lot versus the freeway. How that there 811 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:53,000 you go. 812 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 4: I'm kind of stuck on the painting thing. 813 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,039 Speaker 1: So that is our score Zone Short Game Academy with 814 00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:02,079 Terry Taylor, and that's we do on each Golf Smarter episode. 815 00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:06,079 So we thank score Golf and Terry, we thank you 816 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,840 very much for the support of Golf Smarter podcasts. Helping 817 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,440 us stay alive and really enjoyed the lesson. 818 00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:14,159 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, bud Well. 819 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 5: We always enjoyed that look forward to the next show.