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<v Speaker 1>Would that be correct? And seeing that most of the

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<v Speaker 1>counterintelligence stuff when it comes to propaganda really revolves around

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably today. I left counter intelligence a long time ago,

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<v Speaker 2>but we didn't have the Internet back then. But I

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<v Speaker 2>would imagine today there's a lot of that going on

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<v Speaker 2>through the Internet through sources within TikTok. The way they

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<v Speaker 2>would do it is recruit people that work for different

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<v Speaker 2>Internet providers or even YouTube channels, and then tap into

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<v Speaker 2>that particular YouTube channel or TikTok channel and perform some

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<v Speaker 2>type of counter intelligence operation. Back by the day, as

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<v Speaker 2>it was called deception operations, you didn't you didn't see

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<v Speaker 2>anything written about disinformation UH the the UH. If you

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<v Speaker 2>were going to UH operate a kind of intelligence operation,

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<v Speaker 2>it would be through deception uh and and similar to

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<v Speaker 2>what we did with with Paul Benowitz, although that really

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't much of a task with us because Paul was

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<v Speaker 2>already a believer in UFOs, so we didn't have to

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<v Speaker 2>go through any great lengths to make him believe what

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<v Speaker 2>he was seeing were UFOs and not as the secret

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<v Speaker 2>operation that he actually tapped into. So he lived Paul

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<v Speaker 2>lived in in what they call the area called Four Hills.

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<v Speaker 2>UH and west eastern Albuquerque. That the Four Hills uh

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<v Speaker 2>Housing complex was right up against the base perimeter of

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<v Speaker 2>Kirkland Air Force Base. In fact, Paul's house. If he

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<v Speaker 2>went out his back yard and walked up the defence

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<v Speaker 2>his fence, there was a buffer zone of about maybe

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred hundred feet and then the base defence was there,

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<v Speaker 2>so Paul could look right into see Manzano. And so

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<v Speaker 2>Paul told Colonel Edwards that he was receiving strange signals

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<v Speaker 2>from there, and also he was filming strange objects flying

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<v Speaker 2>next to military aircrafts. When that was reported to Colonel Edwards,

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<v Speaker 2>he immediately contacted me. I was a counter intelligence officer

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<v Speaker 2>for the base, and he said, hey, Rick, I got

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<v Speaker 2>some guy here is providing information to me that you

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<v Speaker 2>need to hear. So immediately went to Colonel Edward's office.

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<v Speaker 2>He gave me all the information on Paul, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I made contact with Paul. That was early in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty and that's when the operation began. Paul didn't come

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<v Speaker 2>out and speak with the Air Force personnel until some

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<v Speaker 2>time later.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you kind of tasked by your superiors to give

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<v Speaker 1>this dessumption to Paul Benowitz or was this something just

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<v Speaker 1>like on your own accord, like just reinforcing his own

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<v Speaker 1>preconceived thoughts and ideas he already.

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<v Speaker 2>Had no in within the US intelligence community. You didn't,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you didn't walk across the street and get

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<v Speaker 2>a drink of water without an operations plan. When my

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<v Speaker 2>first objective was to gather all the information that Paul

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<v Speaker 2>I had, I didn't. I didn't say or or try

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<v Speaker 2>to trick Paul in anything until I gathered all the

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<v Speaker 2>information that he was trying that he gave to Colonel Edwards.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I went out and met with Paul a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of times to get everything that he'd had and

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<v Speaker 2>that he was reporting. I never provided anything to Paul

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<v Speaker 2>until maybe the third or fourth time I went back

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<v Speaker 2>out there. But when I come back came back to

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<v Speaker 2>the office, I wrote up my report and and and

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<v Speaker 2>or reports and sent them up to our headquarters. And

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<v Speaker 2>then they set me down a proposed operational plan of

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<v Speaker 2>what what I need to do. And that's I followed

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<v Speaker 2>the plan. I did exactly what they told me to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's that's how I started interfacing with Paul.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know that what he was captioning was advanced

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<v Speaker 1>military technology that was being tested around Kirkland Air Force Base,

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<v Speaker 1>and that he was getting transmissions from the base before

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<v Speaker 1>you went to figure out what he had was that

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<v Speaker 1>already was that already the thought in the idea behind

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<v Speaker 1>the Air Force at that time, but that he had

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<v Speaker 1>footage or he was recording signals from the military base.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, what Paul was doing was he was photographing these

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<v Speaker 2>objects flying around military planes and what he was actually

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<v Speaker 2>photographing was a highly classified experimental military drone program. They

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<v Speaker 2>were testing different drones back in those days. And the

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<v Speaker 2>one way that the drones were tested was the military

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<v Speaker 2>aircraft would fly a certain flight pattern and release those

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<v Speaker 2>drones from directly from the aircraft. And because the aircraft,

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<v Speaker 2>the controllers inside that aircraft had to control those drones,

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<v Speaker 2>they flew those drones flew in close proximity to these

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<v Speaker 2>Air Force aircrafts. Well, Paul was photographing that thinking those

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<v Speaker 2>things were UFOs And when he told us and showed us,

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<v Speaker 2>showed me the film, there were other agents of my

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<v Speaker 2>name is came up, Jerry Miller's, Steve Ats and some others. Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>But uh so we gathered all that information and gave

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<v Speaker 2>it you know, set it up. And then that's when

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<v Speaker 2>the Air Force says, you're gonna have to convince him

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<v Speaker 2>that those things are something else. And since Paul was

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<v Speaker 2>a believer in UFOs, he was a muphone investigator, he's

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<v Speaker 2>been one for a number of years. He was actually

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<v Speaker 2>involved with Nightcap prior to MUPON and so he was

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<v Speaker 2>a believer, and he told us those things are UFOs,

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<v Speaker 2>those things are alien aircrafts. So it didn't it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>difficult for me to convince him. All I had to

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<v Speaker 2>say was, Okay, I believe you, Paul. They probably are.

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<v Speaker 2>That's it easy, easy job. Now. The other thing he

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<v Speaker 2>was doing was on the base, we.

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<v Speaker 3>Had a an NSA facility that had a two laser systems,

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<v Speaker 3>and what they these lasers were doing were shooting a

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<v Speaker 3>laser up in the sky every time a Soviet aircraft

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<v Speaker 3>would pass over and point that laser into the glens

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<v Speaker 3>of that passing Soviet satellite and blinding the satellite.

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<v Speaker 2>We had several of them in the United States, and

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<v Speaker 2>Paul was had tapped into those signals using to control

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<v Speaker 2>that laser. That's how an Essay got involved in it

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<v Speaker 2>a National Security miss agency and so that's what we

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<v Speaker 2>did during the investigation. Now, there were a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>other parts of the Paul Benowitz case, but that was

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<v Speaker 2>the primary and it was directed and driven by the

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<v Speaker 2>Defense Intelligence Agency, and they dictated what we were to

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<v Speaker 2>do and how we were to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>When did you figure out, I guess you personally, or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe the Air Force. Maybe the Air Force already knew

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<v Speaker 1>that the NSAY was involved with Paul benn Which was

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<v Speaker 1>this further down the road or earlier when you were

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<v Speaker 1>in contact with him.

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<v Speaker 2>I had no idea they were. One night, I was

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<v Speaker 2>at Paul's house with another agent and we were looking

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<v Speaker 2>We were up in the Paul's upper patio. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a rainy night, so we were inside upstairs and we're

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<v Speaker 2>looking across the street. And as I looked across the

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<v Speaker 2>street at this house drugly across the street from him,

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<v Speaker 2>I saw a little red light in the window and

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, Hey, Paul, who lives over there? I think

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<v Speaker 2>they got a camera on pointing over here. And Paul says,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody lives over there. That's a vacant house. I thought, Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>that's odd. So we watched it for a while and

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, with somebody's photograph in this house. So we went. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>we were federal agents and we carried guns, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we went down. But I called the Albuquerque Police Department

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<v Speaker 2>and I had contacts there, and I asked for a

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<v Speaker 2>couple officers come out. We walked across the street just

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<v Speaker 2>as these two men were coming down the steps and

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<v Speaker 2>getting to going to a car. Albuquerque police stopped and

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<v Speaker 2>ask them what they were doing. They said, well, they're

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<v Speaker 2>renting this place. And then I stepped in. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you're renting this place? He said yeah. I said were

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<v Speaker 2>you guys? Where are you guys out of He said, well, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>your business, you know. I kind of so, I, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>identified myself and myself and Steve AT's at the other

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<v Speaker 2>agent with me, and that pretty much shurned the algu

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<v Speaker 2>Please turned that over to us, and they said, well

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<v Speaker 2>we're here. We were out of Colorado Springs. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>what are you doing down here? Why? Why are you

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<v Speaker 2>filming that house across the street. He said, well, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't tell you that it's classified. So but they did

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<v Speaker 2>identify themselves finally as an SA agent's. So the next

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<v Speaker 2>day or a day after, I immediately went out to

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<v Speaker 2>the NSA facility and met I had contacts out there

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<v Speaker 2>and met with one of their supervisors and I said,

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<v Speaker 2>why the hell are you guys involved with an investigation

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<v Speaker 2>that we're doing. And he said, well, I can't tell

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<v Speaker 2>you that. I have to get you know, you have

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<v Speaker 2>to get clearances and so forth. So like a day

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<v Speaker 2>or two later he called me up and said, you

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<v Speaker 2>can come out and and we'll brief you on it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he briefed us on what they were doing,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were concerned about the signals that Paul was

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<v Speaker 2>getting from the laser systems. I knew the laser system

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<v Speaker 2>was out there. I mean I knew everything because I

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<v Speaker 2>was a count of Telligence officer. I knew everything that

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<v Speaker 2>was on the base, but I didn't actually know every

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<v Speaker 2>aspects of those things. So then I said, okay, so

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<v Speaker 2>that's why you guys are investigating. But they went beyond,

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<v Speaker 2>way beyond that. They actually planted listening devices and other

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<v Speaker 2>bugs inside Paul's home without telling us, and we would

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<v Speaker 2>find them. We had technical people that would come out

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<v Speaker 2>in sweep Paul's house all the time because we also

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<v Speaker 2>had an espionage investigation going against one of Paul's employees.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul owned the Thunder Scientific laboratories right outside Kirtland. He

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<v Speaker 2>was making parts for a Miniman missiles, warheads and and

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<v Speaker 2>US Navy submarines. And so we we've got information on

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<v Speaker 2>a on on somebody that might be providing data to

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<v Speaker 2>the Chinese. That was turned over to the FBI eventually,

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<v Speaker 2>But we would go out, our technical specialists would go

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<v Speaker 2>out and sweep Paul's house for signals all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and they found these NSA bugs, which number one, were

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<v Speaker 2>not legal. We had a contract with Paul, a written

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<v Speaker 2>contract the Air Force had with Paul Minnewitz because Paul

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<v Speaker 2>wanted this thing investigated, and so Paul agreed to the

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<v Speaker 2>contract and everything that we did was in that contract.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul allowed us to go into his home anytime we

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to or needed to. We could collect data from

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<v Speaker 2>his home. He knew what type of bugs we placed

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<v Speaker 2>in his home. We knew. He knew that his phone

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<v Speaker 2>was being monitored, and he had two different phone systems

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<v Speaker 2>or numbers, different phone numbers, and we had both of

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<v Speaker 2>those bugs. He knew that. That's why at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of this investigation, people always ask me, well, why didn't

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<v Speaker 2>Paul sue you guys, Because we had a contract with him.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything was written down and we did everything according to

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<v Speaker 2>that contract. So Paul, you know, agreed to it because

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted to know exactly what these aliens were doing

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<v Speaker 2>and he thought that we were collecting all that data.

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<v Speaker 2>So they didn't have one with him, so they surreptitiously

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<v Speaker 2>entered us home to place these bugs, you know, one

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<v Speaker 2>in the computer and he had another one, a couple

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<v Speaker 2>other ones. So we found him and we took him out,

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<v Speaker 2>and we took him back and gave him to NSA

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<v Speaker 2>and said, next time you do something, you need a

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<v Speaker 2>warrant or a permission.

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<v Speaker 1>What did Paul think about these bugs that were that

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<v Speaker 1>you guys were finding That wasn't your guys's bugs. What

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<v Speaker 1>did he say about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is one of the mistakes I think I made.

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<v Speaker 2>If i'd do it over again, I wouldn't do it

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<v Speaker 2>this way I did. We didn't tell Paul initially we

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<v Speaker 2>found these bugs. And number one the reason, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the reasons why our supervisor told us not to tell

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<v Speaker 2>Paul was we didn't know who's who placed these in

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<v Speaker 2>there at that time. We thought they might be Soviets, Russian, Chinese,

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<v Speaker 2>So our technical security specialists got the bugs and they

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<v Speaker 2>analyzed them. And when they analyzed them and found out

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<v Speaker 2>that they were NSA bugs, we didn't tell Paul initially

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<v Speaker 2>that they were NSA bugs, but we took him back

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<v Speaker 2>to NSA at some point later on. We did tell Paul,

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<v Speaker 2>but not initially. And I think if I hadn't do

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<v Speaker 2>it all over again, I would immediately tell Paul. But

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<v Speaker 2>but that's that's a mistake I made in that investigation

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<v Speaker 2>I did. We didn't initially when we found him tell

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<v Speaker 2>Paul that