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My long eighteen plus terms and conditions 27 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:05.879 of plusy Websay. 28 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.239 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 29 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.359 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:21.719 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 31 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 32 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.000 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:47.920 Good evening, the true story of the nineteen ninety Gainesville 35 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:53.359 student murders in the Killer's Own Words second edition, Murder 36 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.760 Confessions and Drawings done on death Row in Florida duringing 37 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:03.000 the early nineteenses. The man convicted of the vicious murders 38 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:08.599 of five college students in Gainesville, Florida, discusses his motivations 39 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:12.639 and actions in committing the crimes, reflects on what made 40 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.280 him into a killer and his struggle to come to 41 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:20.280 terms with what he did. Including new prologue, new illustrations, 42 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.680 and a new preview of the companion volume Beyond the 43 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.280 Making of a Serial Killer. The book that we're featuring 44 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.479 this evening is the Making of a Serial Killer second 45 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:35.520 edition with my special guest, journalist and author Sondra London. 46 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.199 Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much 47 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.159 for this interview. Sondra London. 48 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.599 Oh damn, it's always a pleasure. You're such a good interviewer. 49 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.800 Oh, thank you so much. It's always an absolute pleasure. 50 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:54.120 You have some of the most unique is not even 51 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.879 an apt word, but you have definitely I must read 52 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:04.840 true crime book, especially here Making of a serial Killer incredible. 53 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.080 What we talked about is that this is this book. Well, 54 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.759 you can explain this book originally came out in what year? 55 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:19.159 And then tell us now the reason for this new 56 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:21.840 second edition Making of a Serial Killer? When was it 57 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:25.840 first published? And tell us a little bit about that. 58 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:32.080 In nineteen ninety six, Faraoh House published it. And so 59 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.960 that is the edition that most people are familiar with, 60 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.680 their selling for a couple of hundred dollars, you know, 61 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.840 on Amazon, because it's been out of print for many years. 62 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:53.000 I had published the original as a independent publisher of 63 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:59.479 my own, and I had so many attempts to steal 64 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:06.639 my work in progress that I would copyright, oh every 65 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:11.240 fifty or one hundred pages, and I called it the 66 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:16.000 Rolling Papers, And that is the first copyright it was 67 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.199 placed on it while it was still a work in progress. 68 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.560 Now, tell us what is different about this Making of 69 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:31.759 a Serial Killer the second edition? And some you mentioned 70 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.759 that all along the way you copyrighted things because you 71 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.279 knew that people were trying to steal this information, but 72 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:40.360 they were happening it. 73 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:42.240 They weren't crying, they were doing it. 74 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.360 They were stealing it. Yes, And you've just had a 75 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.480 dramatic example of that recently in the last year or 76 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:56.120 two as well, and an author claiming, yeah. 77 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.040 Yeah, well it's in Europe. So a lot of Americans 78 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:04.279 haven't learned about yet the preposterous case of a fraud 79 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.319 in which all of the art org that Danny Rowling 80 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:12.680 did for our volume The Making of a Serial Killer, 81 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.279 and all of the artwork he did for me, and 82 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:20.959 that he signed many many documents giving me the ownership 83 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:26.240 of them, and this guy boldly went and published them 84 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.879 in Europe and twenty and twelve and put out a 85 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:34.160 big collection of Danny Rowling's artwork that he got photographed 86 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:40.399 for me when he interviewed me, and charging fifty six 87 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:46.759 dollars well euros whatever a book since twenty twelve. So 88 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:52.120 you would think it was impossible because has my face 89 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.240 and all the art org and has my name on it, 90 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:59.759 dear Sondra, But he still put his name on it 91 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.319 as the owner and author of the clan. He claimed 92 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:05.959 Danny gave it to him right before he died in 93 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:10.560 two thousand and six, as if Danny Rowling had all 94 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:16.240 about artwork in his cell since nineteen ninety two and 95 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.399 then when he came to visit him he handed it 96 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.839 to him. That's how naive he is. He didn't even 97 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.079 realize you cannot visit someone who is on death watch. 98 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:32.920 You have to go through extreme vetting and there's no press. 99 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:36.519 It has to be family or or one person only. 100 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.720 But he just told the most outrageous lies. 101 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.639 Well, luckily, The Making of a Serial Killer this second 102 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:51.160 edition gets people to not only hear it from the 103 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:56.079 original the originator being you, and then this added bonuses 104 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:58.879 the prologue, the new illustrations, and the new preview of 105 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:01.519 the companion volume On the Making of a Serial Killer 106 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:06.639 a new cover. Let's get to this most incredible book. 107 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.560 You say that you share? You share a Pulitzer Prize 108 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:17.480 winning historian Douglas Sulfel Freeman his philosophy that the biographer 109 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.439 should provide no information beyond what his subject possessed at 110 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.519 a particular moment, so as to take the reader into 111 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.879 the past as it was when the life was lived, 112 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:31.639 rather than to distort the historical record to conform to 113 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:37.199 newly formed standard standards and customs, and such is your 114 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:40.680 purpose with this book, can you explain? 115 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.720 Yes, that is an immense challenge because it it's twenty 116 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:51.519 five years ago and things have changed and expectations have changed. 117 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.319 And even at the time it was published, it was 118 00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:00.360 way out on the edge of freedom of speech in 119 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:06.680 terms of publishing things that you might under play by 120 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:11.959 calling him politically incorrect. So it was already like that 121 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:16.160 when it was published. So to bring it forward into 122 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:21.600 today now that occasions some discussions with the owner of 123 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:27.560 Farrell House, who had the copyright. And you know Farrell 124 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:33.200 House was one man operation which was Adam Portfree and 125 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:39.039 when he died, his sister inherited the business. Well, Jessica 126 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.679 wants Sarah House to be a kinder, gentler publisher, and 127 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:49.840 when I wanted to do a second edition, the senter 128 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.639 the letter and if she chooses not to do it, 129 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:57.600 then I get the copyright back. See. And so she 130 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:01.240 started actually reading the book because she was not involved 131 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.639 in the business when Adam bought it. And then she 132 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.279 came to the part where Danny was raving about his 133 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:14.000 enthusiasm for rape and she says, aha, aha, you can't 134 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:21.000 publish that, you know, And I just I have developed 135 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:26.919 a philosophy about censorship, and very much so when it 136 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:35.519 comes to let's say, presentations involving violence, and I feel 137 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:40.320 that cleaning it up or sexing it up, or making 138 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:46.080 it palatable for many, many people, it creates a very 139 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:56.759 dangerous motif and it creates a current of belief that 140 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:03.519 enhances the glamour of my and other violence because it's 141 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:10.279 a cheap, dramatic device, a very satisfying way to resolve 142 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:18.879 any conflict. We're constantly said with these scenarios, and people 143 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.159 are given what they want, they show what they like 144 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.440 by what they buy, they make it more of it. 145 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:29.159 And so I feel that a lot of that influence 146 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:34.799 would get someone to cross the line over into something 147 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.600 that would ruin their life forever and they could never 148 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.879 be who they were or who they could have become 149 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:47.320 because they are guided by these images and stories and 150 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:52.720 so forth that don't tell the whole story. And so 151 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.960 from working with a guy like Danny Rowling, there was 152 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:02.960 always the sense of what's suffering that these explosions of 153 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.360 violence brought on, and how he lost who he was 154 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.679 and He was very eloquent about that, and I've felt that, look, 155 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.600 all of this needs to be included, and we the 156 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:20.000 reader need to grow in terms of being able to 157 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.759 incorporate it all into one picture. Then don't just skim 158 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.480 for the sexy parts and get off. Instead, follow the 159 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:37.639 whole storyline where the sexy parts are something that brings 160 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:42.639 on a great deal of suffering, that it's inescapable and 161 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:47.000 ruins your whole wife. 162 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:51.120 Right now, you write, the first week of July nineteen 163 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.279 ninety two, you received the introductory letter from the high 164 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.799 profile prisoner Danny Rowling, who had been charged with five 165 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.200 murders that were committed in nineteen ninety in Gainesville, Florida. 166 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.399 And Danny Rowland was housed in Florida State Prison next 167 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:10.559 to Bobby Lewis. Tell us who Bobby Lewis is and 168 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:14.840 your relationship with him, and what Bobby Lewis had shown 169 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:15.600 Danny Rowling. 170 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:21.879 Bobby Lewis was a murderer from Jacksonville, and when he 171 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.080 saw all the attention Shaeffer was getting from Killer Fiction, 172 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:32.120 he said he wanted me to do his stories because 173 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.480 they were better than Shaeffer's. And I said, you know, 174 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.240 you don't get any money, and you had to be 175 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.000 honest and so forth you had to show a pack 176 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:45.879 and everything. He's like, yeah, yes. 177 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:46.679 His signs on. 178 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:52.360 So from that point I wrote and published with my 179 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:58.879 media Queen Impromoter history of being on death Row with 180 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:04.039 Ted Bundy and his story of escaping from death Row 181 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.240 which is why he was on death row with dead 182 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:12.519 Bundy because uh, they were both escape risks. So anyway, 183 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:19.480 Bobby was had presented himself to me as a good 184 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:24.080 guy that was very popular and uh influential in the 185 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.080 person and could uh get anything money, guns and girls, 186 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:34.279 you name it, and UH had a completely hm con 187 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:38.919 man type of a uh description of who he was. Well, 188 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.559 it turns out what he really was was a snitch 189 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.279 and that where he got all his power was from 190 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:50.120 working from the man, and uh was involved in multiple 191 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.759 situations uh of you know, where the administration would give 192 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:58.159 him privileges and then they would get something on a 193 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:03.840 inmate and return. So that was who he really was. 194 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:08.080 So they placed Danny Rowling next to him on purpose. 195 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:15.320 Okay, now before we go okay, but before we go 196 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.279 a little bit further for everyone that doesn't know this 197 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:21.159 entire story and of course you have to include this. 198 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:25.600 You mentioned killer fiction, and what we haven't talked about 199 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:29.519 is how you come to this. Honestly, you didn't just 200 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.039 come to true crime and decide to write serial killers 201 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:38.399 in prison. So we'll have to go backwards just a 202 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.559 bit briefly to talk about your relationship when you were 203 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.879 seventeen years old, I believe, and Gerard Schaeffer, the relationship 204 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:49.840 and what you saw in the relationship and why you 205 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.240 broke it off, and then what you learned a few 206 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.919 years later about Gerard Schaeffer and his criminal career. 207 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.799 Well, I don't want to give him too much a mind. 208 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.360 Today I will try to touch on what I think 209 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:10.919 of as irrelevant portions. The Shaeffer was a in prison 210 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:15.919 sixteen years on a double homicide, and he had been 211 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:22.320 convicted in nineteen seventy three of two murders that he 212 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.240 was connected to thirty four dead or missing women in addition, 213 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:36.039 and so what when that happened, They didn't have the 214 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:42.440 name serial killer, and it was developed by Robert Wrestler, 215 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:47.559 And as I point out here in this prologue, Robert 216 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:53.360 Wrestler based his definition of serial killer in large part 217 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:59.879 upon the Schaeffer case. So how did what did that 218 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.720 had to do with me? Because when I was a 219 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.960 junior in high school, I met John Shaffer and he 220 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.399 was one year older than me, and he was my 221 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.600 study boyfriend for a year. As I turned from a 222 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:19.440 junior to a senior, I dated him exclusively. So we 223 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.960 were both you know, sixteen seventeen eighteen kind of thing. 224 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:29.240 And then we broke up. And then nine years later 225 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:35.799 was the headlines that this ex that this policeman share 226 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:43.720 a deputy share was perpetrating behind the badge. And at 227 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:47.039 the same time, this was the Paul Beach post I 228 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.360 think had had, you know, just pages and pages of 229 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:55.879 this story. But the thing that excited everyone so much 230 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:02.519 was the writings that they found that he had done, 231 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:09.519 and they were about murder and so and now John Schaeffer, 232 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.759 you know, in the nine years since I knew him 233 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:16.480 as a kid, he had gotten two degrees, one in 234 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:21.359 criminal justice and one in creative writing. And he worked 235 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:25.960 with novelist Harry Crews, who wrote a recommendation for him 236 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:31.279 for his writing. So that was that, that was the 237 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:35.079 big deal in his murder conviction. So then I went 238 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:41.039 along with my life. And then it was years later 239 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:47.000 nineteen eighty nine, that technical writing business wasn't going so 240 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:52.160 good and along with everything due to economics, and I said, well, 241 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.839 I want to do something different, in something I can 242 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:59.759 put my name on. And so then they executed Ted Bundy. 243 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.440 That led me to the stranger beside me by Anne Rule, 244 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.759 and my comment was, shoot, I can write better than her. 245 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.079 And I knew a serial killer a lot more than 246 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:17.480 she did, so I said I could do this, and 247 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.200 so then I wrote your Shape for in Prison. That 248 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:23.039 was February seventh, nineteen eighty nine. It said, do you 249 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:26.440 want to write a book. So then that is how 250 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:31.319 that got started, because I wanted to figure out what 251 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.920 in that heck kind of what is going on here 252 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:40.000 that I could know someone that well and yet you 253 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.720 can't tell they have a whole nother life. And I 254 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.960 wanted to figure out what kind of a mind is this, 255 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:56.880 And so it turned into I asked him a question, John, 256 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.680 do you still write those stories? 257 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:00.640 Oh? 258 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:05.440 God of his opening pendle his box at that point, 259 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:11.200 because after that he began to assault me virtually by 260 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:19.119 sending these grossly offensive sex violence stories. And little did 261 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:23.960 he know that this is my way of getting in 262 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.920 him to admit what he had done. He committed himself 263 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:33.279 as a killer. So I did. I got coached by 264 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:38.920 boy Hazel what Behavior Science Unit, the FI, and he 265 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:48.119 was very helpful. Shaeffer was very difficult, and so Shaeffer 266 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.720 wrote about one part of his stories, so he called 267 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:56.599 Stark Stories. Stark is where the electric chair is, and 268 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:02.160 Stark Stories was all about atrosities going on in the prison. 269 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.279 And that's what got me in trouble because it was 270 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:14.079 true and it was atrocious, and in fact, I have 271 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:19.480 plenty of evidence that Shaeffer himself was murdered by prison 272 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:26.039 guards in prison. Well, so that is why I was 273 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:31.079 persona non grata in Florida State Prison when Danny Rowling 274 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:31.920 came along. 275 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.440 So back to. 276 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.400 You know what brought us to this. The difference there 277 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.359 was Shaeffer's story was old and not really news by 278 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:50.680 the time we started working together. But Danny Rolling story 279 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.039 was a huge news story and I was already working 280 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:01.759 for a current affair putting news story. He's all national TV. 281 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.160 So that's what was different about the Rolling case was 282 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:15.000 this whirlwind of intense attention and. 283 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.559 That was uh. 284 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:23.440 How the way that came through was through the good 285 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.160 offices of Bobby Lewis, and Bobby Lewis was drawn to 286 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:31.039 me because he saw what I did with Schaeffer stuff, 287 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.400 and then he saw what I did with his stuff. 288 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:42.119 So he turned me over to Danny. And Danny was 289 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:48.839 presented to me by Bobby as quote unquote highly suggestible, 290 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:56.079 and I was told he will do anything you tell him. 291 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.759 And so throughout the rest of all this there was 292 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:09.079 Bobby trying to manipulate Danny to Bobby's own benefit, and 293 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:15.039 it was kind of, you know, throwing a spoken wheel, 294 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:19.079 so to speak. But Bobby continued to play a role there. 295 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.119 The problem with Bobby was he lied too much, and 296 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.240 he expected to be the star of the rolling trial. 297 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.359 But they couldn't use him because they knew what a 298 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.680 liar he was, so they could only put him on 299 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.319 for about three minutes to just establish some facts and 300 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:42.880 then give him off quick, right, because helied so much. 301 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.839 So that's Bobby, Sondra. 302 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:52.359 Let's just stop for a second for these messages, thy. 303 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.920 Guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you know 304 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:55.839 this about me, but I'm a bit of a fun 305 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:57.680 fanatic when I can. I like to work, but I 306 00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:59.960 like fun too. It's a thing and now that you're 307 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.160 is out there, I can tell you about my favorite 308 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.200 place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have hundreds of 309 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.079 social casino style games to choose from, with new games 310 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.720 released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, 311 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.599 and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses. 312 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.279 So join me and the fun. Sign up now at 313 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:19.359 chumbacasino dot com. 314 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:21.599 No, we're not necessary dailypod where everybody lost in terms 315 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:22.119 conditions eating. 316 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:28.960 Plus, he talked about the introduction. Bobby Lewis now has 317 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.720 trying to manipulate the situation. But he shows your writing 318 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.079 to Danny Rowling and Danny Rowling says, who wrote this? 319 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:40.759 He said, well, or who is Sondra London? And he says, well, 320 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:44.000 it's my editor. But I think Danny Rowling. As you write, 321 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.839 Danny Rowling realizes at some point or very very very 322 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.720 soon after reading this that you are the person to 323 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:54.480 write this. Now, with all your experience and with your 324 00:23:54.519 --> 00:24:00.640 coaching with Roy Hazelwood from the FBI Behavioral Science Unit, prepared, 325 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:08.920 no one could be prepared an extraordinary preparedness for this interaction. 326 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.799 But what was the goal? What was the goal? And 327 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.279 we know it's in Danny Rowling's own words, and that 328 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.160 would be shocking to people. But what was your goal? 329 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.039 And you did write that also, Hazelwood gave you some 330 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:28.759 really important advice about what not to do when speaking 331 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:29.559 with well. 332 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.359 As I say about was my goal, and my goals 333 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:40.799 were multiple. I still had a mystery to be solved 334 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:46.000 of the mind of a serial killer. Now, I graduated 335 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:52.000 from a college that put us through independent studies. We 336 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:54.559 didn't have classes, and we didn't have raids, and we 337 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:58.880 learned how to structure our own studies. So I knew 338 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.119 I had to go from the particular to the general. 339 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:05.519 I knew I had to read all of the published literature, 340 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.759 and then I started going back the other way, from 341 00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:13.799 the general to the particular. And by the time I 342 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:18.880 had copies of killer fiction, I sent it to some 343 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.400 name brand serial killers to get their review so I 344 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.319 could publish it as a blurb. And from that I 345 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.720 became acquainted with a litany of modern serial killers of 346 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:37.160 different types. That helped me broaden my general knowledge. 347 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.079 So I know what to compare it to. 348 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:46.400 Then. But I have a philosophy that I have developed dance. 349 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:53.799 Everyone who interviews anyone is always pressing for a generalization, 350 00:25:54.880 --> 00:26:00.799 and I'm always continually asked you, well, what is it about? 351 00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:05.720 And so you try to be nice and give them 352 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.720 what they want because that's what they want, and they 353 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:11.039 want to bite, they want to sound, they want you 354 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.200 to boil it down. But I think that too, does 355 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:23.119 a disservice to the phenomenon, particularly of serial murder, because 356 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:30.440 of very subtle pathology. And if you start generalizing you, 357 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.680 it will blind you to what is right in your face. 358 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.000 And if you please just open your eyes and look 359 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:44.400 at the next five human bodies that pass your vision, 360 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.440 you will know that each one is completely different in 361 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:54.480 different ways, and if you worked up their biochemistry, you'd 362 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:59.839 note that each one is different. And there's a kind 363 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:04.559 of a meme that is often repeated, the serial killers 364 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:12.039 are all alike. And I am against that movement and 365 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.680 whatever pressures were brought to bear to make people say 366 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.319 things like that, I don't know who got someone to 367 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.480 say that, because it's not true, and thinking of it 368 00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:29.799 that way will get you in trouble because you will 369 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.720 miss the unique human being that you're dealing with here, 370 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.640 because you're gonna say, oh, well, he's just like John 371 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.279 Jenifer Will. He's not so then what so it's better 372 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:47.079 if you take everything that you've learned from other cases 373 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.200 and from our studies that have been done, from dialogue 374 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:55.640 with experts and authors, and put it on the back burner. 375 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.440 Don't ignore it, but don't let it get in the 376 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:05.319 way of the data that you are privileged to be 377 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:10.880 the exclusive holder of. So, because that's what important thing 378 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:14.160 of what I My mission was was to get as 379 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.720 much data as I could and to publish it. Go 380 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:22.960 where the data leads, elicit the data, organize the data, 381 00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:27.000 fact check it, of course is we're dealing with reality here, 382 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:32.240 and then to publish what I found. And my goal 383 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.640 was not to create a bestselling novel or something that 384 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.880 would give you a warm fuzzy that everything's all white, 385 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.519 that the bad guys are really obvious, and then the 386 00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:51.240 good guys will catch them, quickly, identify them and punish 387 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:55.839 them and and everything's fine. You can go to sleep now. 388 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.200 And you know, I wish I could get a hold 389 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.759 of a storyline that because the ones that I have 390 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:07.319 been presented with their nothing like that, And so I 391 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.200 think I would do it dishonor by trying to squeeze 392 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:16.240 it into a proqustian bed because everyone asked me for 393 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:21.359 a sound bite. So I think the most productive way 394 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.359 to examine my work is to do well on the 395 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:30.519 one case under the microscope and draw out the unique 396 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:35.240 features of that case, rather than try to look for 397 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:40.480 lowest common denominator to everyone we know of that's been 398 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.720 identified as a serial killer. 399 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:50.200 This book includes everything about Danny Rowling's life and his 400 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:55.119 disturbing upbringing with his father James and his mother Claudia. 401 00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:05.839