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If I lost the terms 51 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:03.280 conditions eating pluss. 52 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.639 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 53 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.759 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 54 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:26.120 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 55 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.800 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 56 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:34.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 57 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.000 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 58 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.960 Good Evening. It was an unbelievable crime, hideous, unexpected, baffling, 59 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.439 a crime destined to become the most notorious and obsessive 60 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:00.639 cold case in Cincinnati history. On that long ago day 61 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.879 in September, on the cusp of autumn, we were horrified 62 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.759 by the blaring brick A Murder headlines. Jerry's pretty wife 63 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:10.719 Linda and their young daughter, Debbie were found stabbed to 64 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:14.879 death in their home in the city's Bridgetown neighborhood. Striking 65 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.800 between the fourth and fifth slayings of the Cincinnati Strangler 66 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.360 in nineteen sixty six, the brick A Killer plunged the city, 67 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:25.759 already on edge, into an abyss. A half century later, 68 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.479 the brick of mystery lingers in cobwebs and survives on 69 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:33.360 whispers enter Cincinnati crime writer J. T. Townshend, author of 70 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:38.479 local bestseller Queen City Gothic. JT. Was given unprecedented access 71 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.840 to the case file, laden with information that never saw 72 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.479 the light of print before, evidence that might illuminate the 73 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.400 relentless rumors that police screwed up the crime scene or 74 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.400 covered up for the suspect. Fifty years later, true crime 75 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.439 detective JT. Townshend answers who done it and renders a 76 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:01.439 final verdict. As an armchair detect of stalking a mystery killer, 77 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.520 townshen is not shackled by presumption of innocence or reasonable doubt. 78 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.919 All evidence is amissible. In this gripping excavation, Townshend jettison's 79 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:15.199 the implausible until we arrive at the probable truth. Townshend 80 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:19.160 finally addresses the question who killed the Brick of Family 81 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:23.279 book we're featuring this evening in Summer's Almost Gone, The 82 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.439 Brick of Family Murders, the most notorious cold case in 83 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:31.600 Cincinnati history, with my special guest, journalist and author JT. Townshend. 84 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.680 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 85 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:38.120 for agreeing to this interview JT. Townshend, Dan, it's good 86 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:42.399 to be back with you. Thank you. It's always a pleasure. 87 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.279 Let's get to right. As you write in the book 88 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.120 your personal connection to this, you say you were, if 89 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:54.639 I'm not correct, thirteen in September sixty six, and a 90 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.959 serial killer was on the loose. Tell us a little 91 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.560 bit about what that meant you and your memory of that. 92 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.040 Tell us a little bit, as you write in a book, 93 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.680 about what you were doing when you were thirteen and 94 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:09.360 this happened. 95 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:15.480 Yeah, actually I was twelve years about nine months I 96 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:21.279 was going into seventh grade, and obviously, Dan the fears 97 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.360 of junior high, you know, being in with all these 98 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:29.560 older kids, and I've gotten taller over the summer. Girls 99 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.120 were kind of looking interesting. And we had a serial 100 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:38.040 killer on the loose. He'd killed four victims, and I 101 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.439 wasn't in school more than a couple of weeks. And 102 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.120 then this beautiful family, the Bricas, are murdered in their 103 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:50.040 home and obviously not by the Cincinnati strangler. So we 104 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:53.720 have a completely separate crime. And I think if you 105 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:59.000 read my introduction, I had a horrific nightmare about this crime. 106 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.120 A couple of nights after it happened that the Bricket 107 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:04.839 Killer had got in our house and was killing my family, 108 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:11.319 and it was just extremely memorable, and I said it 109 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.000 in the book. I was almost thirteen, Dan and I 110 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.920 teed the bed. This nightmare was so horrific, and thus 111 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:23.399 began a fifty two year obsession of mine to solve 112 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:23.959 this case. 113 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:31.360 You talk about November twenty fourteen being a very significant date. 114 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.120 Tell us what happened in November twenty fourteen that changed 115 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:40.680 your situation regarding this case. 116 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.360 Well, the book, the book Summer's Almost Gone does not 117 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.800 exist without my access to that case file. And that 118 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.759 was the day I sat down with Hamilton County Sheriff's Department, 119 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:58.879 two cold case officers and myself and Dan. There was 120 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:04.879 the file crime scene photos, mork photos, interviews, evidence, all 121 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:09.439 sitting there and I've been waiting, oh, I guess what 122 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.480 forty eight years at that point to see this information, 123 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.560 and suddenly there it is, and it was astounding. I 124 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.319 looked at the crime scene photos. I had envisioned this 125 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:23.759 crime in my mind. It was nothing like I thought 126 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.639 it was. And it basically changed my theory of the 127 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:32.759 crime and pretty much spawned this book. 128 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:38.079 You talk about the crime itself September twenty seventh, nineteen 129 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:41.519 sixty six, when the bodies were discovered, but you talk 130 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.959 about the family itself, Jerry, Linda, and young child Debbie. 131 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:51.399 So tell us a little bit about Jerry and Linda 132 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.639 and their life the Brica family life. Tell us a 133 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:56.959 little bit about their background and their life together. 134 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.959 Well, they were both Jerry was raised in San Francisco, 135 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.800 lynd in Chicago, both upper middle class families. They met 136 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.000 while she was an airline stewardess for American Airlines out 137 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:16.480 of Seattle, and they started dating, and Linda got pregnant 138 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:20.839 almost immediately, and they had a rather hurried marriage in 139 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.079 November of nineteen sixty one. They'd only known each other 140 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:28.800 six months, so Linda was only eighteen at the time. 141 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:32.840 Jerry was twenty three, so rough start for a young couple. 142 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:40.159 Debbie was born beautiful child. Jerry, I think has been 143 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.919 described as kind of a workaholic. He was very career oriented, 144 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:50.879 job oriented, focused on work. Linda was stunningly beautiful, and 145 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:56.279 I got family photos from the family of her in 146 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.000 the book that were never published. One of the problems 147 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.799 with the book originally, well, I didn't have any good 148 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.600 photos of her, just newspaper photos, and suddenly I had 149 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:11.720 photos that showed just how stunningly attractive she was. And 150 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.200 the fact that she was an ex airline Steward is 151 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:18.879 very beautiful with a workaholic husband kind of started the 152 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.600 rumors about this case. But just a typical kind of 153 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.399 middle class family in Cincinnati, living in a nice neighborhood, 154 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.720 and suddenly all three of them are murdered. Why That's 155 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:38.519 the question everybody in Cincinnati and the West Side has 156 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:41.320 been asking for fifty two years. You know, why have 157 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:42.519 all those neatly. 158 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:59.360 Hello? JT. Yes off. Yeah, we were cut off. So 159 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:06.320 let's go back and let's talk about about Jerry and 160 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:09.279 Linda and Debbie a little bit about their background. 161 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.759 Okay, we didn't we didn't get any of that before. 162 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:14.559 I guess. 163 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:19.360 We got just an introduction to them, just a little 164 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:24.360 bit about just about their living arrangement, and then you 165 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.720 said they wound up passed away. What I was going 166 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.799 to ask you as well about the brick of family 167 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.679 you write in this book at the same time about 168 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:42.080 the Cincinnati Strangler. Yes, why is this important to include 169 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.759 the Cincinnati strangler at the same time that you have 170 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:48.919 this parallel investigation into the brick and murder mystery. 171 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:55.440 Well, I think it. Obviously the Cincinnati Strangler and the 172 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:59.679 brick and murders were concurrent. They happened obviously both during 173 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.840 nine in sixty six. The city was already on edge 174 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.960 from four women being killed by the strangler when the 175 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:11.399 Bricks were killed. And if the brickas are the most 176 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:16.360 notorious cold case in Cincinnati history, then the fifth Cincinnati 177 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.200 Strangler victim, Alice Hawkausler, who was murdered two weeks after 178 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.600 the brick is that's the second most notorious cold case 179 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.600 in Cincinnati history. She was a very prominent victim, wife 180 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.799 of a chief of surgery at a major hospital, mother 181 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:33.600 of nine. So we had this beautiful family murdered in 182 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:39.080 late September sixty six, and two weeks later, this society 183 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.399 matron fifty one years old is struck down on her 184 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:47.399 own driveway at midnight by the Cincinnati Strangler. So it's 185 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:51.360 difficult to separate the Strangler and the brick A murders. 186 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.759 The combination of the brick Is being killed and Alice 187 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:59.799 Hawkhausler really launched the largest law enforcement mobilzation in city history. 188 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:00.519 That time. 189 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:08.759 You talk about the misconception two of the profile that 190 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:12.679 all serial killers are white. In this case, here we 191 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:20.559 see so many reports of attacks by black males. Tell 192 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:23.279 us why this is important in this story. 193 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.840 Well, again, I think there is a misconception two of them, 194 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:32.879 actually that serial killers are invariably white males and that 195 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:37.120 they never stop killing, and both those assumptions are false. 196 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:44.639 Black serial killers occur roughly, it's the same percentage of 197 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:47.600 black people in the population, about twelve to thirteen percent 198 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:52.000 of serial killers are black rather than Wayne Williams, the 199 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.919 Atlanta child killer. Allegedly, there's not a lot of publicity 200 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:02.120 about them. But you know, Cincinnati, it's the sixties. Cincinnati 201 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.799 is extremely conservative, Dan still is, and we've got the 202 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.759 Vietnam War going on, their race riots. The backdrop of 203 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.840 the sixties has got Cincinnati kind of befuddled. You know, hippies, 204 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:21.720 you know, radical free love movements, things like that. And 205 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:28.279 suddenly we have an allegedly black serial killer killing elderly 206 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:34.360 white mothers. And really the fertilizer just hit the fan 207 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:40.600 with this, and it exacerbated racial tension extensively in Cincinnati. 208 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.879 Black men were rounded up and pulled into lineups without 209 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:50.679 any due process. Civil rights groups assailed this, but the 210 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.080 fear was so palpable that in the end, no one 211 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:57.639 really cared that anyone's rights were being violated. So the 212 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:00.559 racial tension in Cincinnati during the reign of the Strangler 213 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.639 was certainly a big part of the story. A mysterious 214 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:10.519 black man killing elderly white women, and then the brick 215 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:15.320 acase lands right on top of this, a beautiful suburban 216 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:20.039 family stabbed to death in their own home. I'm really 217 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:25.759 a little stunned Dan that a national crime show has 218 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.919 yet to do a story on this, and my age 219 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:32.000 and I are working on just that. I think what 220 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.200 Cincinnati went through in nineteen sixty six on a true 221 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:40.679 crime level was profound, and it would be certainly not 222 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:44.720 a stretch to say that Cincinnati lost its innocence in 223 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:49.080 nineteen sixty six. What did Mark Twain say, the world 224 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.159 were coming to an end. I'd moved to Cincinnati and 225 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.919 have ten more years to live because nothing it takes 226 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.960 so long for things to get to Cincinnati. But you know, 227 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.840 this was something These crimes were like something that would 228 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.600 have happened in New York or Chicago or LA but 229 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.240 it was Cincinnati. You know, how could that happen here? 230 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:14.120 Let's talk about the crime itself, what police find once 231 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.519 they are alerted to this, and how police are alerted 232 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.919 to the brick, a family and something amiss. You talk 233 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.559 about the neighbors and their reaction and their response. Tell 234 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:28.600 us about that and how they find out. But then again, 235 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.519 what are the characteristics about the murder that seemed to 236 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.320 baffle police from the onset? 237 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:41.159 Yeah, they were Sunday night, September twenty fifth, the rainy 238 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.960 Sunday night. Not a lot of people are out. It's 239 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:49.039 the world television premiere of Bridge on the River Quai. 240 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.000 At the time, sixty million people tuned in, the largest 241 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.039 to ever watch a movie on TV at the time. 242 00:15:56.919 --> 00:15:59.639 Jerry Brook is seen taking out his garbage cans at 243 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:03.440 nine by a neighbor. That's the last time anyone saw 244 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.720 any of the family. Jerry didn't make a flight the 245 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:11.279 next morning for his business trip. All day Monday, newspapers 246 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.879 sat out, garbage cans sat out. Neighbors kind of wondered, 247 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.720 but they assumed the family might be out of town. 248 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.240 It wasn't until Tuesday night, the twenty seventh that some 249 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:26.480 alarmed neighbors did investigate again. The garbage cans are still out, 250 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.879 there's three newspapers on the sidewalk in front of the house. 251 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.799 They can hear the family's dogs barking inside, and two 252 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.399 neighbors lean in the front door, which is unlocked and 253 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:43.159 are assaulted by the unmistakable stench of dead bodies in 254 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.519 the brick a house. And that's about ten forty five 255 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.960 on that Tuesday night, And that's when the call went 256 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:56.559 out and you you had mentioned what were the circumstances 257 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:01.720 of this crime that baffled investigating officers. Obviously there were 258 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:06.079 hamstrung immediately from the get go. The first forty eight 259 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:12.240 it's gone. You know, nobody is aware from Sunday night 260 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.079 to Tuesday night that these people have been murdered. You know, 261 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.680 witness memories start to recede into the rearview mirror after 262 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.839 forty eight hours. I mean, how many can you remember 263 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.200 what you had for dinner three nights ago, Dan, or 264 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:30.440 who you saw near your house. It's totally hamstrung the investigation. 265 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.359 If the bodies had been discovered the night of the 266 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:37.480 murder murders, we've probably got a different situation. So they 267 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:43.160 got a really late start there, was conflicting jurisdictions. There 268 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:47.559 was four different police jurisdictions at this crime scene, and 269 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.319 the crime scene was unsecured for the first two hours, 270 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.720 which is not that unusual for a nineteen sixty six 271 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.359 crime scene. You know, there's no sign in log there's 272 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:03.119 no hazmat suits of glove, there's no detectives trained in 273 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:08.319 evidence collection. These detectives have to do everything themselves, and 274 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.559 the crime scene was unsecured, and the rumors immediately started 275 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.680 that this was a screw up, But I don't think 276 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.039 it was. 277 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.119 I can expand talking about yes, well, there's also some 278 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.400 features of the I talked about the characteristics that they 279 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:33.240 found no struggle from the victims, and also no forced 280 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.000 entry that they could see. What are a couple of 281 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:40.200 the other circumstances that seemed again odd or they noted, 282 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.640 And then you can again again we talk about what's 283 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.759 interesting as well, is that no struggle but Jerry, if 284 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.480 you could describe Jerry more unusual that he would not 285 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.440 have fought well. 286 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.799 I think even with the forty eight hour delay of 287 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:01.799 discovery Dan, I think the lead investigator her Vogel, once 288 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.759 he arrived and shut down the crime scene, he made 289 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.920 a couple of very correct assumptions, I think, almost immediately, 290 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:14.640 one being that the brick is knew the killer or killers, 291 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.759 and we see a lot of signs there of the 292 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.400 family being lulled into a sense of security. There is 293 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.119 no forced entry, there is no sign of a struggle, 294 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.200 there are no defensive stab wounds. The two dogs known 295 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:39.440 to be aggressive barkers, especially around strange men, strangely quiet, 296 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.920 not only the night of the murders, but for days afterwards. 297 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:47.720 No neighbors hear anything. And the houses on either side 298 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:53.079 Dan are very close, very close, twenty feet maybe you know, 299 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.559 no sign of a struggle. And I think the police, 300 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.799 in a modern profiling sense, they dermined this was a 301 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:06.640 personal cause homicide, that the killers knew the victims, that 302 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.160 one killer or both were emotionally entangled with one of 303 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:18.319 the victims. And the immediate speculation was that Lindabrica was 304 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.200 the target. And there was an immediate controversy at the 305 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:28.359 crime scene had she been raped, and the coroner and 306 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.559 the lead investigator went back and forth on this. Now 307 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:36.599 I've seen the crime scene photos. Her breasts were exposed 308 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.279 and she was wearing a skimpy negliget, but it appeared 309 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.240 to be because she had been thrown off the bed 310 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.920 after being stabbed, and her body was thrown on top 311 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.640 of Jerry's her panties were in place. Eventually, the police 312 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:54.079 determined she had not been raped, but that she had 313 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:58.759 had recent intercourse, possibly the day before her murder. But 314 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:00.960 I think the police were correct. This was not a 315 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.720 burger had gone wrong. This was not a roving serial 316 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:11.079 killer or maniac. This was not a professional hit, This 317 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:16.920 was not a cult. This was someone emotionally involved with 318 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:21.519 the victims. So in that aspect, I think they pushed 319 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:24.119 off in the right direction with their investigation. 320 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.880 You talk about they oh, you're right about that. They'd 321 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:34.799 speak to a neighbor and at who ends up being 322 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.240 a babysitter for Linda, and from that they get a 323 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:43.519 lot about the situation between Jerry and Linda, possibly at 324 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.039 least from that event. Tell us about that event and 325 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:52.160 what it tells police and indicates the police. 326 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.960 Well, I'm sure they didn't call it victimology then in 327 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.119 sixty six, but they were trying to get to know 328 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:02.000 this family better than the family knew that. They got 329 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.880 a lot of information from Linda. Zeph the primary babysitter 330 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:11.640 who probably knew the family better than any non relative, 331 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:17.079 having spent so much time babysitting there. It would be 332 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.960 it would be incorrect to suggest this couple had a 333 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.119 happy marriage. They'd had a trial separation in March of 334 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.720 that year. There was disputes about Linda not wanting to 335 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:35.920 have another child. She was certainly an animal lover and 336 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.319 was interested in acquiring more pets, but not more children. 337 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:44.480 This was at odds of what Jerry wanted. This was 338 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:48.880 a troubled marriage. They only knew each other five months 339 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.880 before they were married, and she was pregnant for a 340 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.640 couple of those, so kind of a rocky start. And 341 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:01.279 you know, I don't want to blame any victims, but 342 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:06.119 I found it interesting. I interviewed three men who were 343 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:10.799 inside the crime scene after the discovery, and the speculation 344 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.759 about Linda Brica having an affair started as they were 345 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:23.440 looking at the dead bodies almost immediately, actually immediately. Speculation 346 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.279 was that the motive for this murder was an adulterous 347 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:31.880 affair that took a wrong turn into rage. 348 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.559 We talked about that neighbor and that neighbor that was babysitting. 349 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.720 She mentioned that there was a confrontation where Linda was 350 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.880 supposed to be back from work and she was working 351 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.119 as only one day at this veterinarian's clinic, and she 352 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.880 was supposed to be home around nine. Jerry went to 353 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.119 some event and came home late himself and still found 354 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.319 that his wife hadn't returned home take care of their child. 355 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:02.160 You mentioned that this affair was a rumor. Let's talk 356 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:06.559 about the subject of that rumor, Doctor Fred Leininger. 357 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:09.640 Yeah, let me. Let me get put a little basis 358 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:13.359 to that. Chapters four and five of my book. I 359 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.119 set up a timeline in chapter four of the week 360 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.720 leading up to the murders. Chapter five is the murder day, 361 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:24.200 and this is piecing together into narrative form all the 362 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:30.720 interviews and information, all the witness statements. Linda worked. She 363 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.279 went to work at the Glenway Animal Hospital on Monday, 364 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:39.359 September nineteenth. She'd been bugging the head vet there about 365 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:44.519 a job. She ended up working only three days that week, Monday, Tuesday, 366 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.559 and Wednesday, and the family was murdered that Sunday. And 367 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.880 the obvious first question for me is, if Linda Bricka 368 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.680 does not go to work at that clinic, is the 369 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:02.480 family in fact murdered. The only break from her routine 370 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:12.720 was taking that job at that clinic. So the Wednesday 371 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:18.039 night I thought was a pivotal night. Jerry's at a 372 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.519 bachelor party indicates he needs to go home. He needs 373 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:23.960 to be home when his wife gets home from work. 374 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.519 He gets home at nine o'clock, she doesn't. He waits, 375 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.400 He goes next door. His daughter is asleep, being babysat 376 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:38.359 by a neighbor. He seems upset. He's wondering where Linda is. Suddenly, 377 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.279 at ten thirty, an hour and a half late, she 378 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:45.640 shows up with whiskey on her breath, indicated she had 379 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.799 a drink with doctor Fred Lininger, her boss at the clinic. 380 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:54.359 Jerry became somewhat enraged, made a threat. I must say, Dan, 381 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.559 it's only hearsay that he made that threat, because I 382 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:04.359 don't I'm not actually in the case file. But I've 383 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.000 got pretty good witness corroboration. But he didn't make the 384 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:11.279 threat directly, and eventually he took his wife and child home. 385 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:16.640 What's interesting, on Thursday morning, the normally reserved Jerry, who 386 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.920 never talked about his family life, unloaded to his boss 387 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.480 about how upset he was about what was going on 388 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:29.200 with Linda, her being drunk, being late, and her association 389 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.759 with this veterinarian. This is Thursday morning, and this guy's 390 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:37.920 stepping totally out of character, venting to his boss about 391 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.160 what happened the night before. And as I say in 392 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.680 the book, that Wednesday night, the seeds of murder are sown. 393 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.480 I don't know what went on between Linda and doctor 394 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.240 fred Leininger that night, but I can say this if 395 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:54.759 you look at any murder victim dan and today we 396 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.039 look at who called him on the cell phone? You 397 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.400 who are they on social media with? But back then 398 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.480 it was basically about were they in each other's company? 399 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:12.759 And Linda worked for Fred Lininger Monday through Wednesday. She 400 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:15.640 tried to get in touch with him Thursday by leaving 401 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.559