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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime. History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening, November eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight was a tragically
Speaker 2: unprecedented day in US history that will forever be woven
Speaker 2: into the fabric of this country. It is the day
Speaker 2: that leader of People's Temple, James Warren Jones, ordered the
Speaker 2: assassination of US Congressman Leo J. Ryan and others at
Speaker 2: the Port Katuma airstrip in South America, then led his
Speaker 2: congregation on what Guyana's police chief Skip Roberts testified was
Speaker 2: a mass suicide. Decades later, however, the depth of this
Speaker 2: story is still unknown, and many scholars and former members
Speaker 2: who have continued their exploration of the incident have found
Speaker 2: that there is still plenty of evidence as well as
Speaker 2: plenty of sinister connections that contradict the official version of
Speaker 2: this story. Jonestown, Don't Drink the kool Aid is the
Speaker 2: chronological story of the rise and fall of People's Temple
Speaker 2: and its leader Jim Jones, from his early years in
Speaker 2: Indianapolis and California to the tragic ending in the jungle
Speaker 2: of South America that claimed the lives of nine hundred
Speaker 2: and eighteen Americans. Jonestown Don't Drink the kool Aid comprehensibly
Speaker 2: details the many links that Jones than his compound had
Speaker 2: with the CIA and their m culture experiments, through a
Speaker 2: comprehensive analysis of Jones' life, People's Temple, and the investigation
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of the mass murder suicides. This book
Speaker 2: is designed to be the quintessential marking piece that will
Speaker 2: reintroduce this story to society and serve as a reminder
Speaker 2: of the infamous matter that hung in the pavilion in Jonestown.
Speaker 2: Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
Speaker 2: The book that we're featuring this evening is Jonestown Don't
Speaker 2: Drink the kool Aid, The complete story behind the mysterious
Speaker 2: Jim Jones and his exodus to Guienna, with my special
Speaker 2: guest journalist and author Will Survive. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 2: and thank you for greeting this interview Will Survive.
Speaker 6: Hi, Dad, thank you so much for having me. I
Speaker 6: appreciate it look forward to this absolute.
Speaker 2: This is a great show. I love your show, Thank
Speaker 2: you very much. This is one of the more incredible
Speaker 2: moments in American and world history. And if people thought
Speaker 2: they knew everything about this, this is the book that
Speaker 2: would tell them otherwise. So let's again one of my questions.
Speaker 2: It seems to be important. That's why I always ask it,
Speaker 2: without giving anything away, how did you come to write
Speaker 2: this book? Jonestown, don't drink the kool aid?
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I first started researching the contents and
Speaker 6: the story, you know, many years ago, probably maybe fifteen
Speaker 6: years ago, before I was a writer. You know. Obviously
Speaker 6: I was, you know, well aware of the of the story,
Speaker 6: and when I was in school, I did a book
Speaker 6: report on it, and I just found that the official
Speaker 6: version of the story was left a lot to be desired.
Speaker 6: I did not, you know, I always feel that when
Speaker 6: you look at something and there are questions, especially you know,
Speaker 6: when it comes to news sources or government agencies that
Speaker 6: you know you are, the mind suddenly tries to or
Speaker 6: subconsciously tries to fill those gaps. And I came across
Speaker 6: a few different writings that kind of opened my eyes
Speaker 6: a little bit from mister Hogan and John Judge where
Speaker 6: they imposed the question and actually, you know, put forth
Speaker 6: some evidence that there might be some CIA connections involved.
Speaker 6: So I decided to look a little further into the story.
Speaker 6: And when I began writing, you know, I got my
Speaker 6: bachelor's degree in criminal justice with a concentration of forensic science,
Speaker 6: and I began writing these types of stories. This was
Speaker 6: ideally one of the stories that I wanted to get
Speaker 6: into a little more. So you know, from there it
Speaker 6: just kind of steamrolled and snowballed into me writing the story.
Speaker 6: It wasn't a planned thing from the beginning.
Speaker 2: Great, Now, let's go back to the beginnings of this
Speaker 2: incredible story of this man, James Warren Jones, and go
Speaker 2: back to his parents, Linetta and James Jones. You take
Speaker 2: us right back to this before his birth, before James
Speaker 2: Warren Jones was born, which was May nineteen thirty one.
Speaker 2: But take us back to his early life and maybe
Speaker 2: even before Creed, Indiana. So take us back before they
Speaker 2: settled in this area, and a little bit about Lynetta
Speaker 2: and James Jones, and James Jones in his early life.
Speaker 6: Well, his parents came from the right out of the
Speaker 6: Great depression and had you know, little Jimmy as I
Speaker 6: call him, in the beginning. They had him, you know,
Speaker 6: right out of that period. So obviously, you know, you
Speaker 6: you can kind of just tell right from there, you know,
Speaker 6: what type of people they were. They were survivors. They
Speaker 6: you know, they were struggling, just like you know everyone
Speaker 6: else in America, especially in the dust Bowl area. And
Speaker 6: you know they were scrappers. And James uh sor you know,
Speaker 6: had some problems and some injuries from you know being
Speaker 6: the military, uh and and and on his uh and
Speaker 6: on his job. So Lynetta really became the breadwinner in
Speaker 6: the family. And you know, back in those days that
Speaker 6: was the novelty because women were not uh the bread winners,
Speaker 6: you know, so much. So she became she was very,
Speaker 6: very tough. She always taught Jimmy to to be try
Speaker 6: to be self sufficient, self reliant, and and you know
Speaker 6: it was it was, I believe, out of that where
Speaker 6: he you know, became this person where he took on
Speaker 6: this persona of of being a leader. And she actually
Speaker 6: pushed him to become a leader instead of a follower.
Speaker 6: And and and you know, in essence run of businesses
Speaker 6: on his own instead of working for people, and you know,
Speaker 6: they just were they were.
Speaker 2: Go ahead.
Speaker 6: Sorry, no, no, I'd say that. I mean, really, that's
Speaker 6: that's that's the essence of of I think, you know
Speaker 6: what what he was his childhood was about. As far
Speaker 6: as from his parents' perspective.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you write that at that time, and
Speaker 2: again they were considered an odd family. The father did
Speaker 2: a little bit of work, but he'd been, like you said,
Speaker 2: injured in the War of Mustard Gas, so he did
Speaker 2: a little bit of work. She really did taking bringing
Speaker 2: all the money into the household, but they also had
Speaker 2: a They didn't sleep together, the parents. And one I
Speaker 2: thought was most interesting too, is that they didn't go
Speaker 2: to church. They didn't attend church.
Speaker 6: Right, So yeah, and that's another thing from from back
Speaker 6: then that was really odd because you know, most people
Speaker 6: were very religious. You know, it's I mean, it's hard,
Speaker 6: I guess for a young person to understand that, but
Speaker 6: I mean in America in those days, you know, religion
Speaker 6: was pervasive and most if you were not into religion,
Speaker 6: you didn't go to church or you didn't practice in
Speaker 6: some way, you really were an outcast in the community.
Speaker 6: In any community you were in.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about in the book You Chronicle that
Speaker 2: at four years old he meets a pretty important figure
Speaker 2: and it's an important story to again, I guess, explain
Speaker 2: the early genesis or the early metamorphosis of James Jones.
Speaker 2: So at four years old, you say, meets his friend
Speaker 2: Donald Friedman, and he also meets this missus Myrtle Kennedy
Speaker 2: and she becomes a spiritual advisor. So tell us at
Speaker 2: four years old, again, it's to explain the time, how
Speaker 2: this woman, what her influence is really on James Jones,
Speaker 2: and what does his mother have to say. So tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about this missus Myrtle Kennedy, the
Speaker 2: spiritual advisor.
Speaker 6: Well, missus Kennedy would uh you know, would would kind
Speaker 6: of took on the role of looking after him because
Speaker 6: you know, James, Jimmy's father was was I mean really
Speaker 6: just kind of indifferent, uh, you know, sick and at
Speaker 6: the VA hospital a lot or at the V a
Speaker 6: spot where you know they hung out and his mother
Speaker 6: was working. So Jimmy was often seen running around the
Speaker 6: neighborhood by himself, getting you know, possibly into trouble, almost
Speaker 6: getting hit by a train, and there was a lot
Speaker 6: of instances where you know, she would see him, and
Speaker 6: she felt that she would take him him under her wing,
Speaker 6: so she did so. And she happened to be a
Speaker 6: very religious person, so she also started taking him to church.
Speaker 6: And I you know, from everything I've read, Lynetta was not,
Speaker 6: you know, particularly happy about it, but she really, i
Speaker 6: mean had no choice today. They were not good friends,
Speaker 6: her and Missus Kennedy, but I'm sure for her son's sake,
Speaker 6: she appreciated the fact that somebody was, you know, looking
Speaker 6: after him. And now I believe that she was a
Speaker 6: good woman and Lynetta saw that, so she she was
Speaker 6: happy about that at least.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too that you talk about the kind
Speaker 2: of church that he was first exposed to as well,
Speaker 2: which is a Pentecostal church, and you talk about the
Speaker 2: word cultish. Even at that time they were considered a
Speaker 2: very outside the norm religion as well, weren't they. And
Speaker 2: some of the things that he got to see at
Speaker 2: an early age out of the organ.
Speaker 6: Absolutely absolutely when Missus Kennedy wasn't actually happy about that,
Speaker 6: after a few years, he you know, she was actually
Speaker 6: taking him to uh, you know, Protestant and and and
Speaker 6: and he would go to different churches on his own.
Speaker 6: He came across that Pentecostal church, which was again on
Speaker 6: the outskirts quote unquote of uh you know, of the area,
Speaker 6: and really they were looked on as the Holy Rollers,
Speaker 6: you know, these people who kind of played fast and
Speaker 6: loose with the religion. You know, that was something he
Speaker 6: found on his own. And that was the moment that
Speaker 6: he himself said that you know, it was it was
Speaker 6: there that he felt the most at home. Uh, And
Speaker 6: he said that's where he first experienced real love as
Speaker 6: he as he put it, or you know, his first
Speaker 6: experiences with with love and acceptance. He never felt accepted
Speaker 6: before he stepped into this into this world of kind Acostal.
Speaker 2: Of interesting too, you have the the female minister at
Speaker 2: this church really takes him under a wing almost immediately
Speaker 2: and starts preparing him, recognizing she said, basically his verbal
Speaker 2: maturity and his and his mental superiority. You know that
Speaker 2: he was a smart kid. And so she started working
Speaker 2: with him. And that was something that Lynette wasn't his
Speaker 2: mother wasn't too happy with.
Speaker 6: Right. Well, even before he he uh you know, had
Speaker 6: this experience, had met these Pentecostal people. He he was
Speaker 6: doing his old preaching in in uh you know, at
Speaker 6: his house. He would invite uh, you know, his friends over,
Speaker 6: and you know he I guess he started to cultivate
Speaker 6: that H skill with with I'm sure an intrinsic type
Speaker 6: of charisma that he already you know, possessed. I believe
Speaker 6: that day that you know, female minister she saw that.
Speaker 6: And I mean, I'm sure you can imagine, you know,
Speaker 6: this this young kid walking in there by himself, which
Speaker 6: I would assume would be rare that there weren't many,
Speaker 6: you know, children that just kind of came in off
Speaker 6: the street by themselves. And I guess she again felt
Speaker 6: the need to to take him under her wing and
Speaker 6: maybe even saw this this h a need and use
Speaker 6: for him. Uh and and and and and and I
Speaker 6: guess started mentoring him. And yet Linetta was certainly not well,
Speaker 6: you know, she didn't really know too much about it
Speaker 6: until uh, you know she uh the minister took Jimmy
Speaker 6: away on a trip, and I guess, you know, was
Speaker 6: filling his head with these paranoid delusions that I guess
Speaker 6: he portrayed onto his mother and and and told her about.
Speaker 6: And I guess at that point she was not very
Speaker 6: happy of that type of influence that she was having
Speaker 6: on him.
Speaker 2: Now, amazingly, we're talking about a kid from ten years
Speaker 2: old to twelve years old in the time period that
Speaker 2: we're talking about here, and then at twelve years old,
Speaker 2: another incident kind of well affects his life too. Again
Speaker 2: his friend Don Friedman. Again he gets introduced to a
Speaker 2: BB gun and the next thing you know, they're introduced
Speaker 2: to hunting. So him and Don go hunting. So tell
Speaker 2: us about this story, because obviously it's important to in
Speaker 2: foreshadowing at least, or tell us a little bit about
Speaker 2: the story about the hunting trip.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think this is where you first
Speaker 6: start to see, you know, Jimmy's sadistic side, where where
Speaker 6: you know, he points the gun at Don and then
Speaker 6: shoots at him, and it seems to be at this
Speaker 6: point where he's you know, starting to kind of test
Speaker 6: this relationship. This is where he in the future we
Speaker 6: see this is a foreshadowing of every relationship that he'll
Speaker 6: have in the future, of him testing people, you know,
Speaker 6: and and and you know, it's showing his domination and
Speaker 6: his statistic side, and it's kind of scary when you
Speaker 6: look back, you know, that this was kind of the
Speaker 6: beginning of it all, and it seemed to go unchecked.
Speaker 6: You know, it never seemed to be checked at any point.
Speaker 2: You know, in the book you talk about early influences.
Speaker 2: He's enters high school in nineteen forty five, and he's
Speaker 2: gravitates towards the works of Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mohammed Gandhi,
Speaker 2: and Karl Marx. And his IQ is reported at one
Speaker 2: hundred and eighteen. So he's a smart guy. So tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about high school and how is
Speaker 2: he regarded as by other students. I mean, we know
Speaker 2: this is a very a time of really real religiosity,
Speaker 2: but tell us how how does he stick out or
Speaker 2: fit in?
Speaker 6: Well, it seems that he didn't really fit in too well,
Speaker 6: you know, he it was at this point where you know,
Speaker 6: when he was younger, he you know, he was keen
Speaker 6: as not really a clean boy. He didn't really care
Speaker 6: too much about his appearance. Well this is where he
Speaker 6: started now to you know, care about his appearance. Started
Speaker 6: to do his hair, you know, that was one of
Speaker 6: his best features. And he you know, he was always
Speaker 6: combing his hair, and you know, the Jim class he
Speaker 6: wouldn't participate. He wasn't a very athletic boy, and he was,
Speaker 6: but he was very intelligent and he would always at
Speaker 6: that point he would he was starting to you know,
Speaker 6: preach to people and to the kids, and I guess
Speaker 6: that kind of turned him off. And you know, he
Speaker 6: was trying to, I guess, learn how, you know, how
Speaker 6: to manipulate people, how to and and he wasn't really
Speaker 6: good at it at that point. You know, that's that's
Speaker 6: kind of what what I got mostly out of his
Speaker 6: high school years that he you know, he would get
Speaker 6: it to fight. He was trying to force feed people
Speaker 6: his beliefs. And I think it was soon after that that,
Speaker 6: you know, he really started to get it that you
Speaker 6: can't do that. You know, you get more you know,
Speaker 6: flu you know, bees with honey than with vinegar.
Speaker 2: Now, he was also at the same time he was
Speaker 2: interested in culturally what was going on, which was race
Speaker 2: relations and also interestingly where he would go out of
Speaker 2: out of his norm, out of his neighborhood or into
Speaker 2: other communities to preach. He found the you know, a
Speaker 2: big minority population. So tell us how that those the
Speaker 2: two things came together and sort of worked for him
Speaker 2: to formulate an idea of acceptance by an audience.
Speaker 6: Right. Well, when he when he was you know, when
Speaker 6: he was in his local area, you know, he'd dress
Speaker 6: up in a robe and he'd really try to to
Speaker 6: do the fatherly you know, preaching on the streets and
Speaker 6: people just would walk by him and he wouldn't really
Speaker 6: pay him much mind. And that was predominantly you know,
Speaker 6: white area. And then he took the job in Richmond
Speaker 6: at the hospital there and that's when he started preaching
Speaker 6: in a predominantly black area. And it was there he
Speaker 6: you know, he kind of that's where he started switching
Speaker 6: up his style. He would you know, wear jeans or
Speaker 6: he would he would dress nice, but he just he
Speaker 6: he wouldn't be so overbearing. And I think that's where
Speaker 6: he started to learn, you know that again, the manipulation tactics,
Speaker 6: you know that how he was being theen he his
Speaker 6: self awareness I think was growing and he was coming
Speaker 6: into his own at that point. But that's where he
Speaker 6: gained acceptance. And he saw that the black community was
Speaker 6: you know, they they were more receptive. And he also
Speaker 6: started listening to a lot of the black preachers of
Speaker 6: the time and he saw how their charisma and their
Speaker 6: excitement would would were really winning people over. And he
Speaker 6: started to kind of mix that in a little at
Speaker 6: this time and adopt those styles. And I think that's
Speaker 6: you know, at that point, Uh, he was just kind
Speaker 6: of testing it out and and and he was getting,
Speaker 6: you know, small successes, so he continued to do it.
Speaker 2: Now you were talking about his preaching days in Richmond
Speaker 2: and where he met Dan Mittrione. And this is a
Speaker 2: he was a Richmond police officer at that time, and
Speaker 2: he's a little bit older and Jimmy and kind of
Speaker 2: took a shining to Jim Jones and also just tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about his his CIA connection allegedly too.
Speaker 2: So tell us about this interest, how he met him,
Speaker 2: and how on earth these two guys become friendly.
Speaker 6: We'll see that there now there. We don't have too
Speaker 6: much information unfortunately during that time period of of you know,
Speaker 6: their connection. I mean Jim Jim talks about it on
Speaker 6: certain tapes later, but he doesn't go into great detail.
Speaker 6: But you know, yes, they did have a relationship. Uh
Speaker 6: you know, it was there that they met. He became
Speaker 6: police chief Mattrion and uh, surely he knew of Jimmy.
Speaker 6: You know, preaching on those streets a white boy and
Speaker 6: a predominantly black neighborhood. So it was there that they met,
Speaker 6: and they certainly were not It wasn't.
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Speaker 6: Alleged CIA connection. I mean later on he he at
Speaker 6: your own became uh, you know, head of the CIA's
Speaker 6: torture department over in Brazil, and they actually did a
Speaker 6: movie about him. You know, he was killed by some gorillas.
Speaker 6: There's actually a movie about his life, so that could
Speaker 6: be easily accessible in researched as well. But yeah, they
Speaker 6: definitely knew each other and Jim Jim talked about him
Speaker 6: and I'm sure we're going to get into what happened
Speaker 6: in Brazil. I'm sure I'm assuming that that's where you're
Speaker 6: going with this, right, absolutely, Yeah, well we'll get we'll
Speaker 6: get there. Sure, Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2: Now, So tell us, Uh, you know, Jim's parents separate,
Speaker 2: He's in his last year of high school. Again, you
Speaker 2: you you include a story about the last incident or
Speaker 2: the farewell dinner with his friend Don and again this
Speaker 2: is this is an important figure in this book. So
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about this last meeting and
Speaker 2: what what it really says about Jim Jones.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean it's funny because you know, Don
Speaker 6: had they went their separate ways in high school, and Don,
Speaker 6: you know, was kind of, I guess with the cool kids.
Speaker 6: He was playing basketball, he was a jock, and you know,
Speaker 6: he liked the ladies and and uh he was just
Speaker 6: being a normal teenage boy. You know. Jim was certainly
Speaker 6: going the opposite way with it. He was kind of
Speaker 6: a reclose and uh, you know, doing his own thing.
Speaker 6: So they kind of separated. They had an incident where
Speaker 6: they got in you know, there was a they got
Speaker 6: into a fight on the basketball court because Jim was
Speaker 6: trying to you know, make them stop uh playing basketball,
Speaker 6: to read the Bible, which again, at that time, like
Speaker 6: I said, he was trying to force feed people, which
Speaker 6: he found later on that it just didn't work. And
Speaker 6: at that point they separated for a while, and then
Speaker 6: they came back together as any friends did, I mean
Speaker 6: do they? I mean they you know, they knew each
Speaker 6: other since they were little kids. So Jimmy was moving
Speaker 6: and you know, so they had this type of kind
Speaker 6: of farewell dinner so just to uh, you know that
Speaker 6: they were that he was leaving and he wouldn't let
Speaker 6: Don leave. There became a time where they were hanging
Speaker 6: and he he didn't want him to leave, and you know,
Speaker 6: Don kept saying, I have to go, I have to go,
Speaker 6: and then decided to stay. Just kept compromising, kept compromising,
Speaker 6: and finally, you know, after like an hour of doing this,
Speaker 6: he finally just said, jim I'm leaving, and you know,
Speaker 6: got up and just started walking to the door. And uh,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm sure he knew, you know, him's sadistic
Speaker 6: side at this point. I mean, I'm sure he was
Speaker 6: well aware of it, and he you know, walked fast
Speaker 6: towards the door, Jimmy uh grabs you know, his father's shotgun,
Speaker 6: which which his father was sitting in a rocking chair.
Speaker 6: He grabbed the shotgun which was behind it his father,
Speaker 6: you know, kind of just sitting sitting there listening to
Speaker 6: the Cincinnati Reds game. You know, we wasn't even paying attention,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know, Don started running out the door,
Speaker 6: and uh, he he took he fired a shot at
Speaker 6: him that almost that almost hit him and hit the tree,
Speaker 6: and Dons you know, like hid for a couple of
Speaker 6: seconds and then just got up and took off. Uh
Speaker 6: and jim was like it was looking for him. And
Speaker 6: I mean at this point, obviously this this kid was
Speaker 6: I'm sure terrified and had sworn to never never speak
Speaker 6: to him again. But obviously a significant moment where we see,
Speaker 6: you know this this this a type personality, uh, you know,
Speaker 6: with psychopathic tendencies starting to really take shape.
Speaker 2: Continues working at the hospital and he sort of has
Speaker 2: a seems like an affinity for it, a very much
Speaker 2: an interest in it. And again at the hospital he's
Speaker 2: working and he sees his old pal, the guy that
Speaker 2: should know better again who does he jump into tell
Speaker 2: us again into Donald Friedman sucker for punishment.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, so he was. He runs into him again.
Speaker 6: And at this point, I think he really was starting
Speaker 6: to become good with his manipulation tactics of people telling
Speaker 6: people what they wanted to hear, persuasion techniques. He had
Speaker 6: started to really develop them very quickly once he started.
Speaker 6: Once he got that this idea and he saw that
Speaker 6: it worked, he developed them very quickly. He persuaded Don
Speaker 6: to work at the hospital with him. He said, you know,
Speaker 6: he knew Don, like you know, was really into the ladies.
Speaker 6: At this point. He said, there's a lot of beautiful nurses,
Speaker 6: you know, And and somehow he convinced Don to to
Speaker 6: work there. And and Don, not knowing thought that, you know,
Speaker 6: him and Jim were gonna be colleagues. But Jim actually
Speaker 6: wound up being his boss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and writing him pretty good, didn't he So.
Speaker 6: Oh, he wrote, He wrote him hard. He would play
Speaker 6: practical jokes on him, you know, he would. At this point.
Speaker 6: He also learned to find people's weaknesses and exploit them.
Speaker 6: So he knew Don was kind of a squeamish and
Speaker 6: afraid of blood, so he'd he'd at times, you know,
Speaker 6: they worked the night shift that so he there would
Speaker 6: be no one around, so he chased Don around with
Speaker 6: like a severed arm. You know, he he would do
Speaker 6: I mean, really, he would do just some some really
Speaker 6: sadistic things. And I'm kind of laughing at that, but
Speaker 6: that's really not that funny, right, So tell.
Speaker 2: Us when Jim Jones meets his wife under what circumstances,
Speaker 2: and you can start getting into some of the more
Speaker 2: profound things that he does with this ability to con
Speaker 2: and the ability to charm. So tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about when this happens. How old is he and does.
Speaker 6: He me I believe he's around sixteen years old. I
Speaker 6: think he meets a much older Marceline. I think I
Speaker 6: think she was twenty four. I came to go offhand,
Speaker 6: but I mean, so he meets this woman who's significantly
Speaker 6: older than him, maybe a little younger. She might have
Speaker 6: been in that, but you know, he starts to now
Speaker 6: he charms her. She sees that. You know how great
Speaker 6: Jim is with the patience, I mean, he really is.
Speaker 6: He's he's caring, and you know, it's so hard to
Speaker 6: think about a person like Jim who later becomes or
Speaker 6: even at this point was stick and was doing psychopathic things,
Speaker 6: but also you know, can show this duality, this this
Speaker 6: heart and and and passion for you know, helping people.
Speaker 6: So it's it's this is what makes this, you know,
Speaker 6: so intriguing that you have this sociopath, psychopath who really
Speaker 6: knows how to blend in and and and and do
Speaker 6: these things. Well, you know, and he won over Marceline,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know they I guess she reluctantly started
Speaker 6: a relationship with him, and ultimately they you know, they
Speaker 6: wound up getting married and again, and the parents weren't
Speaker 6: you know, too happy about it obviously, but you know,
Speaker 6: Jim won them over too, you know, with his.
Speaker 2: Charm that they were. They were an upper class conservative
Speaker 2: family too, so he had to be so he had
Speaker 2: some overcoming to do with these people. They weren't instantly
Speaker 2: wanting him. They were a close knit family and they
Speaker 2: were a Methodists, so it took some convincing for them
Speaker 2: to warm up to him, didn't it.
Speaker 6: It's amazing, It really is amazing to think how this
Speaker 6: this kid could have even done that. You know, you
Speaker 6: I guess you'd have to really be there to really
Speaker 6: understand it, which you know none of us were. But
Speaker 6: you know, he he obviously was very intelligent. He knew
Speaker 6: how to speak very well. And he again at this point,
Speaker 6: I believe he really started to cultivate that master you know, manipulator,
Speaker 6: uh you know type personality, and he at this point
Speaker 6: he he can manipulate anybody into believing anything that he
Speaker 6: told them, you know, and I think that he won
Speaker 6: them over and he this he had this kid had
Speaker 6: no money. I mean, but I guess they could see
Speaker 6: at some point, you know, he's a smart kid, he's good,
Speaker 6: He's going somewhere. But uh, you know, as you see,
Speaker 6: I mean, it took them a long time. They struggled.
Speaker 6: They struggled mightily. And you know, Marsolene was was the
Speaker 6: breadwinner for for a long time before before Jim kind
Speaker 6: of got on his seat.
Speaker 2: Now again, it's interesting that Jim Jones, this guy that can,
Speaker 2: as we see, captivates so many people at one time,
Speaker 2: really is in this formulative stage where he's learning how
Speaker 2: to do things. So it takes quite a while. He
Speaker 2: starts when he's a young man, ten years old, twelve
Speaker 2: years old, is still when he's married to Marcel, and
Speaker 2: he's still honing his craft, isn't he?
Speaker 6: Yes, Yes, absolutely, you know, I don't. I don't even
Speaker 6: think Marsoleine knew him too well in the beginning. You know,
Speaker 6: I would assume he kept a lot of things from
Speaker 6: her as far as you know, his his his personal
Speaker 6: belief and ideologies. But she would soon she would soon
Speaker 6: figure it out. And I guess at that time she
Speaker 6: was you know, in love with him and and and
Speaker 6: would would basically ride with him, you know, no matter what.
Speaker 2: Now, soon after they're married, you said that Jim and Marcelyn.
Speaker 2: He talks Marcelyn about his belief in communism and and
Speaker 2: also about his interest in the struggle for blacks for
Speaker 2: their equality as well. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 2: about what he starts to form in his mind about
Speaker 2: a philosophy that he can use for his from the pulpit.
Speaker 6: Right right, I mean, well, he's he's again, he's had
Speaker 6: these ideologies for a while, and and and then he
Speaker 6: tells Marceline this stuff, you know, after they're married. So
Speaker 6: you know, he was somehow able to hide a lot
Speaker 6: of these beliefs uh from her until I guess he
Speaker 6: knew he had her at a certain position, and you know,
Speaker 6: one day it just I guess it just came out
Speaker 6: and then he started taunting her that you know, there
Speaker 6: was no god there, you know, and the Bible is
Speaker 6: full of contradictions, and you know, he he he got
Speaker 6: her so mad. He would taunt her to the point where,
Speaker 6: you know, one day she threw dishes at him and
Speaker 6: she she told him to stop, and she, you know,
Speaker 6: I guess it was, you know, very angry at him.
Speaker 6: And you know, I mean, that's that's kind of the
Speaker 6: person he was. He would just keep poking and prodding,
Speaker 6: uh until he until he made you crazy at some point.
Speaker 6: But obviously I don't think you know, she was. She
Speaker 6: was very happy about about this, and I guess she.
Speaker 6: I don't know how she dealt with it, honestly, because
Speaker 6: in that day and age, that's a that's a pretty big,
Speaker 6: you know, divide between a a wife and you know,
Speaker 6: a husband.
Speaker 2: Absolutely Now to complicate this, and even more interesting too,
Speaker 2: is that they at that time they were adopting children too,
Speaker 2: And they tell us about the order of events, but
Speaker 2: they end up adopting a black child and Korean, I believe,
Speaker 2: so tell us about their adoption, and then before we
Speaker 2: talk about their own child that was born between them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they they adopted a few children, and they took
Speaker 6: in a an older woman and they you know, then
Speaker 6: they they had uh you know, Stephen Jones, a child
Speaker 6: of their own, and they really he started you know,
Speaker 6: selling monkeys. I mean he was, he was doing all
Speaker 6: all kinds of stuff. Uh, it's it's it was. It
Speaker 6: was a pretty interesting time. But again we justn't we
Speaker 6: don't know too much about you know, that time other
Speaker 6: than really what you know, what Tim Reideman uh wrote
Speaker 6: about and and you know he did obviously extensive research
Speaker 6: research on his on Jim's younger days. You know, so
Speaker 6: that's that's kind of where a lot of that comes from.
Speaker 2: Sorry, did you mention about Ronnie Baldwin to her his
Speaker 2: wife's brother tell us about Ronnie Baldwin and them bringing
Speaker 2: him into the family.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean Ronnie that was another one where I
Speaker 6: think he uh, that was one of the people who
Speaker 6: he tried to manipulate. And I think that was his
Speaker 6: first failed that was his first like defector really who
Speaker 6: he tried to manipulate and say that his you know,
Speaker 6: uh the mother didn't love him and and uh, you
Speaker 6: know did the child wound up leaving him after after
Speaker 6: a certain amount of time because there was a lot
Speaker 6: of mental abuse that Ronnie went through, and Marceline I
Speaker 6: think this is where she first, you know, witnessed you know,
Speaker 6: how sadistic Jim could be with with other people. You know,
Speaker 6: he really he was not nice to Ronnie and you know,
Speaker 6: in a lot of ways, and you know that relationship
Speaker 6: wound up ending pretty badly, and you know, thankfully for Ronnie.
Speaker 6: I mean, he was you know, one of the actually
Speaker 6: Don was the first person to defect Donald Friedman, but
Speaker 6: you know Ronnie was was the second and both were
Speaker 6: lucky to get away from him.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about Jim's epiphany in nineteen fifty two
Speaker 2: at the Somerset Methodist Church, tell us what happens at
Speaker 2: this church and what announcement he makes in terms of
Speaker 2: his new career move.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean at this point he sees a credo
Speaker 6: which you know, really wants to incorporate all types of people,
Speaker 6: and he gets very very excited and and and you
Speaker 6: know he wants it was also, uh, you know, he
Speaker 6: was able to talk about his his social views, his ideologies,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know it really always was to Jim
Speaker 6: about being able to talk about his political views. I mean,
Speaker 6: it wasn't about it was never really about religion for him.
Speaker 6: It was it was his able to push his political agenda.
Speaker 6: And so that's one thing if you really, you know,
Speaker 6: get into researching Jim Jones, you'll find that, you know,
Speaker 6: he really was deep down an atheist, and he really
Speaker 6: just took on religion as a way to uh to
Speaker 6: to mask you know, the UH for a reason to
Speaker 6: talk about his political views. And that's that's what he did.
Speaker 6: That's the way he was able to gain such political
Speaker 6: favor later in life with all the you know, major politicians,
Speaker 6: including you know, like I said, the President's wife, you know,
Speaker 6: Missus Ford at that time, right.
Speaker 2: And you say too that he really he liked the
Speaker 2: uh the Methodist creed itself for its social goals and
Speaker 2: mixed it met his social goals. And he just mixed
Speaker 2: it with the the sort of the wild Pentecostal style
Speaker 2: of preaching and try to fuse those two things together.
Speaker 2: And part of it was his What he had seen too,
Speaker 2: is the healings were very powerful. You could heal somebody
Speaker 2: at these you know, at these absolutely these Well.
Speaker 6: That was the thing it was, it was, you know,
Speaker 6: he saw a way too, and that is that is
Speaker 6: exactly right. What he was able to do is you know,
Speaker 6: he kind of was a he was forthinking in that
Speaker 6: way where he was ahead of his time. He was
Speaker 6: able to mess these two styles and religions together and
Speaker 6: then and and the Pentecostal style of preaching, you know,
Speaker 6: which was very upbeat and excited and to really and engaging,
Speaker 6: and he was able to to do that and then
Speaker 6: and then mix in the healings as well, which were
Speaker 6: you know, fake healings, but but people believed him and
Speaker 6: he did them so well with with such great trickery
Speaker 6: that you know, people were actually starting to believe that
Speaker 6: this this guy was a prophet. And I guess once
Speaker 6: he got a taste of that and that excitement from
Speaker 6: the crowd that that they were feeling and and and
Speaker 6: you know, uh pushing back towards him, you know, he
Speaker 6: became addicted. And uh he knew at that point that
Speaker 6: you know, if he can continue this, not only can
Speaker 6: he build his congregation, but he can also get you know,
Speaker 6: these political leaders and also more importantly, the the religious
Speaker 6: community to back him, which which you know that really
Speaker 6: in the beginning, it was what he needed. He needed
Speaker 6: top level, you know, Uh, ministers to to back him,
Speaker 6: and you know, and and and that was his goal.
Speaker 6: And he that's why he would go to these you know,
Speaker 6: these huge seminars, the thousands of people where all these
Speaker 6: preachers would would speak, and he wanted to go in
Speaker 6: there like a rock star. And you know, he just
Speaker 6: went over their congregations and co go and you know,
Speaker 6: win them over so he can go speak at their
Speaker 6: congregations and and and you know, basically steal their their members.
Speaker 6: And he did that very very very well.
Speaker 2: So you talk about that this big his big debut
Speaker 2: on the big stage was in Detroit nineteen fifty three
Speaker 2: at the bethesta Missionary temple in Detroit, and it was
Speaker 2: an internominational missionary seminar and he said it was you said.
Speaker 2: The hundreds of Protestant ministers were gathered for the event
Speaker 2: and Jones wasn't scheduled to speak, but a female organizer
Speaker 2: gave the opportunity and Jim pulled out all the stops.
Speaker 2: He was calling out names, prophesizing and healing illnesses. And
Speaker 2: he said he captivated the with with his character and
Speaker 2: he managed to steal the show and impress somebody that
Speaker 2: was very important to him and and the rest of
Speaker 2: his career of his Reverend Edwin Wilson, So tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about that.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean he he was able to
Speaker 6: go up there and he was able to speak and uh,
Speaker 6: you know, and and you know a lot of people
Speaker 6: were skeptical. I mean he definitely you know, there were
Speaker 6: a lot of ministers to look at this guy. Who
Speaker 6: who's this guy think he is? You know, but he
Speaker 6: just he didn't care. I mean, he was just looking
Speaker 6: to to to get grab a couple of people to
Speaker 6: that were that were going to back him. I mean,
Speaker 6: that's all he was looking for, he didn't, you know,
Speaker 6: And he did, and then he would take them with
Speaker 6: him and he would just he would just build from there.
Speaker 6: And then he'd go to one of you know, another
Speaker 6: big you know, seminar, and he would he would do
Speaker 6: the same thing. And eventually, you know, he built such
Speaker 6: a following from from doing this that you know, he
Speaker 6: became a force to be reckoned with on his own.
Speaker 2: Pretty soon, he leaves Somerset Methodists, gets a little bit
Speaker 2: of money and he rents a little church and he
Speaker 2: calls it the Community Unity. And it's in a racially
Speaker 2: mixed area and so he have his own church here
Speaker 2: now and he's getting known for healings and prophecies. Ah.
Speaker 2: And so tell us a little bit about the relationship,
Speaker 2: because we haven't spoken about even in his childhood, his
Speaker 2: high school. The relationship is his sexual relationship with women
Speaker 2: and his sexual orientation. Tell us just a little bit about,
Speaker 2: you know, the importance of women and his allure or
Speaker 2: no allure with these women.
Speaker 6: Well, he certainly had uh you know, he certainly had
Speaker 6: a war with the women. Uh. But you know, it's
Speaker 6: it's odd because if you if you read the book,
Speaker 6: if you if you know, you do your research, you'll
Speaker 6: see that he you know, he could get these women
Speaker 6: on his own without have to humiliate them. But somehow
Speaker 6: he I guess he got off on that. I mean,
Speaker 6: he really did. So he wanted to dominate them, he
Speaker 6: wanted to embarrass them. I mean, you know, I'm sure
Speaker 6: you know what I'm speaking of with a couple of
Speaker 6: instances that were in the book with Debbie Layton later
Speaker 6: and I don't want to get too far ahead, but uh,
Speaker 6: you know, he was obviously also a homosexual. He you know,
Speaker 6: he he did sleep with men, you know, and he
Speaker 6: he openly said that even in you know, PC meetings
Speaker 6: and and to a lot of his members later after
Speaker 6: he had already gained control over them. So yeah, I
Speaker 6: mean he he had a lot of issues, you know,
Speaker 6: as far as the way he treated people. There wasn't
Speaker 6: that he was a homosexual. It was the way he
Speaker 6: treated just the people he was with. I mean, he'd
Speaker 6: humiliate them. I mean he you know, you know without
Speaker 6: getting it's too much great detail. I mean, in the
Speaker 6: in the book, it's it's it's all right there, it's
Speaker 6: it's very sadistic.
Speaker 2: The other thing I find interesting is too, as soon
Speaker 2: as he gets sort of the support of somebody at
Speaker 2: a religious congregation, he is either trying to take their
Speaker 2: following or upstage them. And at the same time he
Speaker 2: knows that it's a racially mixed and charged area and time,
Speaker 2: and yet he does things like bringing black church members
Speaker 2: onto the stage of the church. So he's he is
Speaker 2: a real radical and he's really burning bridges, it seems,
Speaker 2: but it's a part of his personality. He's he's not subtle,
Speaker 2: this guy.
Speaker 6: No, he's certainly not subtle. And uh, you know, weeah.
Speaker 6: Once he once he believed that he could, you know,
Speaker 6: he he had a little he had a footholder, He
Speaker 6: had some power. He would certainly use that. He was
Speaker 6: somewhat subtle in certain ways, but you know, you know,
Speaker 6: when he first got into a couple of these churches,
Speaker 6: he he would he was subtle and he would just preach.
Speaker 6: He would you know, he was a great preacher, and
Speaker 6: show his charisma, and then suddenly he then he would
Speaker 6: start to push his agenda, his political agenda. He would
Speaker 6: start to you know, bring the black congregation into this
Speaker 6: white you know congregation when he'd mix them. And obviously,
Speaker 6: you know, at that time, they felt very uncomfortable about that,
Speaker 6: and a lot of people left. So he didn't care,
Speaker 6: you know, he just this is the way I'm going
Speaker 6: to do things, and you know, if you don't like it,
Speaker 6: it's it's too bad. Because he knew he saw an
Speaker 6: opportunity here. He didn't think that he was burning bridges
Speaker 6: and he was going back, going to go backwards, and
Speaker 6: he didn't. He kept going up and up with this thinking,
Speaker 6: you know, and it was like again, it was very
Speaker 6: forward thinking at the time. He was. He was well
Speaker 6: ahead of his time in that area.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about him meeting we can't go through
Speaker 2: all the people that he meets. But it's important he
Speaker 2: meets this Jack Beam, and and he starts understanding the
Speaker 2: importance of gaining financial support. And so coincidentally he starts
Speaker 2: gravitating towards people that might have something to contribute. So
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about the formation of People's
Speaker 2: Temple and his relationship with Jack Beam, right, well.
Speaker 6: He needs you know, he takes Jack from the last
Speaker 6: church that he was at along with several other members.
Speaker 6: Jack becomes one of his really most staunch and loyal
Speaker 6: members for the rest of their lives. Really, and yes,
Speaker 6: he starts he starts to gravitate towards people who have money.
Speaker 6: You know, the Myrtles had several properties, and basically his
Speaker 6: grand plan was to have everyone live communally, uh and
Speaker 6: and then just donate all of their stuff, their properties,
Speaker 6: their money, they're social Security, their salaries, whatever they were getting.
Speaker 6: They had to donate a large portion, more than half
Speaker 6: to the church. And so now the church has all
Speaker 6: this income, you are basically working for the church. And
Speaker 6: how he would keep this all together, you know, through
Speaker 6: the long haul, was to have people sign sign documents
Speaker 6: that were blank power of attorney documents that were blank.
Speaker 6: So then you know, he could manipulate them in any
Speaker 6: way later on if they wanted to leave, and it'd say,
Speaker 6: you know, you signed this power of attorney and you
Speaker 6: know you said that you sexually molested children, you know,
Speaker 6: and and he would just you know, they said he
Speaker 6: that's how he knew he can gain a foothold over people.
Speaker 6: He had so many different tactics of how to how
Speaker 6: to keep people quiet and how to hold them in
Speaker 6: and how to keep you know, them bringing in money
Speaker 6: for him.
Speaker 2: You know, what was his philosophy? How did he really
Speaker 2: what was he the philosophy that he was can saying
Speaker 2: to these people in terms of the government anti government sentiment,
Speaker 2: in terms of the government was against them. They were
Speaker 2: they were oppressed at the blacks. They were oppressed, it
Speaker 2: to people, and that's why they would want to go
Speaker 2: live communally somewhere else. What was some of the things
Speaker 2: that he incorporated and he said in that philosophy.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean he was he was really just talking
Speaker 6: about you know, what was going on at that time,
Speaker 6: and and it wasn't it wasn't anything that was you know, secretive.
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, there there were a lot of
Speaker 6: you know, race there was. It was.
Speaker 2: It was there were a lot of.
Speaker 6: You know, you had the Civil rights movement. I mean,
Speaker 6: you had all this stuff going on. So this wasn't
Speaker 6: you know anything that he was telling them that that
Speaker 6: was you know, new news. I mean, he was just
Speaker 6: basically taking what was going on at that time and
Speaker 6: and uh using it to to for in his favor,
Speaker 6: telling them, you know that you know, he was not
Speaker 6: like that. He was going to build the community that
Speaker 6: was you know, racially mixed, and uh, you know, this
Speaker 6: is going to be the new thing. This is going
Speaker 6: to be the way it is in the future, and
Speaker 6: we're going to show them, you know, how to live
Speaker 6: and the right way to live. And you know, I
Speaker 6: mean it's just you know, he he would just use
Speaker 6: that to his favor. It was. It was sort of
Speaker 6: like a a Martin Luther King, but the you know,
Speaker 6: dyslexic psychotic version.
Speaker 2: You know, Now, where was the first People's Temple established?
Speaker 2: It's nineteen fifty nine, But where where is this?
Speaker 6: Uh? I I you know, I don't, I don't even
Speaker 6: you see, you've done more research I think to be
Speaker 6: a bit on my book.
Speaker 2: Well, I know he was, he wasn't it He wasn't Indianapolis.
Speaker 2: And then I know he's in San Francisco, so I'm.
Speaker 6: Right he can say, well, yeah, it was San Francisco.
Speaker 6: Was on the Geary it was on Geary Street. It
Speaker 6: was San Francisco. Then he was in Yukaiah and he
Speaker 6: was in Los Angeles, right, yes, some of the Yeah, And.
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
Speaker 6: I believe it was Yukayah. Yu Kaiyah was the it
Speaker 6: was the first area of the People's Temple.
Speaker 2: It's interesting. In fifty nine the temple has two thousand members.
Speaker 2: And and so we're entering into nineteen sixty and he's
Speaker 2: talking about a person named Father Divine, the leader of
Speaker 2: the International Peace Mission movement. And this guy's they're calling
Speaker 2: him the Dean of the universe and even God himself.
Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about Father Divine and
Speaker 2: Jim Jones.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Father Divine had you know, they were saying that
Speaker 6: he had some more a million followers at that time.
Speaker 6: He was a very popular Black minister, and he was
Speaker 6: also rich, and you know, he lived in a in
Speaker 6: a mansion and he prophesied himself as you know, the
Speaker 6: Living God, and you know, his followers believed him. And
Speaker 6: I think this is when when Jim you know, got
Speaker 6: winto him and and then eventually went out and met
Speaker 6: him and saw his congregation preached with him, he kind
Speaker 6: of got this idea that you know, I could do this,
Speaker 6: you know, I can do this with my people. And
Speaker 6: Father Divine's wife was not too happy with Jim Jones.
Speaker 6: I think she sensed that he, you know, was was
Speaker 6: trying to, uh to use Father Divine and manipulate him
Speaker 6: and use his tactics, and and I think you know,
Speaker 6: there was at one point he was, you know, Father
Speaker 6: Divine kind of wanted him to Jim to take over
Speaker 6: when he was done, and a Mother Divine was just
Speaker 6: she was not having it. And uh, but Jim figured,
Speaker 6: you know, I could take this back to my congregation,
Speaker 6: and and that's what he did. He told he assumed
Speaker 6: many of the rules that Father Divine had and he
Speaker 6: put those on his people, like no sex, you know,
Speaker 6: between between anyone in the congregation, and you know, just
Speaker 6: just there were a lot of rules that Father Divine
Speaker 6: had that he assumed for his congregation.
Speaker 2: Right and and how does Jim get to the idea
Speaker 2: or or what happens with the progression of people's temple
Speaker 2: from that point.
Speaker 6: From that point on it it becomes much more strict.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: You know, it seems that there's a there's a change
Speaker 6: and members, you know, see this change in Jim where
Speaker 6: he becomes much more authoritative and and much more militant
Speaker 6: with his h with his congregation, and uh, you know,
Speaker 6: they a lot of people I think did not like it.
Speaker 6: But you know, again he had this stronghold over them,
Speaker 6: and he wouldn't do this with the new members. You know,
Speaker 6: with the new members would come in and he would
Speaker 6: he would, you know, have his congregations. He would have
Speaker 6: them seen as you know, they just as normal. He
Speaker 6: would have them at his normal sessions preaching, you know, prophesizing.
Speaker 6: But then he would have other sessions where he would
Speaker 6: really start to talk to his other members, his his
Speaker 6: staunch members, and they would see the real Jim Jones.
Speaker 6: And then once he got these people, these other new
Speaker 6: recruits in, that's when he would show them who he
Speaker 6: really was.
Speaker 2: In the book you have in nineteen sixty one, his
Speaker 2: associate pastor Archie Items, Jim Jones tells him he hears voices
Speaker 2: from extraterrestrial beings that he had a vision of a
Speaker 2: nuclear explosion in Chicago of apocalypse proportions, and this is
Speaker 2: where he starts talking about moving the church to a
Speaker 2: safe zone to avoid nuclear fallout. Uh So tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit what the fallout is from him talking
Speaker 2: like this, Well, you.
Speaker 6: Know there there, that's where I start to kind of
Speaker 6: you know, disassociate myself and then veer off from the
Speaker 6: from the original version, where you know, I don't believe
Speaker 6: I believe that that was just an excuse for him
Speaker 6: to you know, and I don't you know, I don't
Speaker 6: like to say because I don't want to get too
Speaker 6: radical and I don't want to push people in a
Speaker 6: direction of my I'd like the reader to figure it out,
Speaker 6: you know, for themselves or have their own opinion of it.
Speaker 6: But you know, I don't believe that was the reason.
Speaker 6: I believe he was going traveling to this uh you know,
Speaker 6: CIA installation. Uh, you know where Dan Mittrion had coincidentally,
Speaker 6: you know, coincidentally where he was. And then there were
Speaker 6: people who saw him out there. You know, he was
Speaker 6: he had a lot of money out there. Suddenly he
Speaker 6: didn't have a lot of money here all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: he was he looked like he was rich out there
Speaker 6: and there were a lot always government US government cars
Speaker 6: in front of his house. I mean, there seemed to
Speaker 6: be a lot of fishy things going. I had two passports,
Speaker 6: you know, like like he had a double I mean there,
Speaker 6: you know, at that point, it kind of seemed like
Speaker 6: there was a lot of things happening where we can't explain.
Speaker 6: And that's where things get a little fishy and dicey.
Speaker 2: Well what do you what do you assume or what
Speaker 2: what do you theorize happened in this You talk about
Speaker 2: him moving to Hawaii and you talk about you have
Speaker 2: good proof that he had again this money that doesn't
Speaker 2: seem to have any source of this income. Why would
Speaker 2: what was why Dan mittrion c I a US government?
Speaker 2: What do they know about Jim Jones, whether they believe
Speaker 2: about Jim Jones? And why would they be interested in
Speaker 2: Jim Jones?
Speaker 6: Well, obviously he had uh you know, a pretty uh
Speaker 6: you know he had he had he had had that charisma,
Speaker 6: He had a congregation, he was building it. Maybe they
Speaker 6: you know, they said, will help you, uh build the
Speaker 6: even bigger congregation. We'll get you in with certain government agencies.
Speaker 6: I mean, all this is speculation. I can't really I
Speaker 6: you know, I could theorize you know, anything I want,
Speaker 6: you know, I mean it's we could we could fill
Speaker 6: in the gaps here any any way that we want,
Speaker 6: with any type of philosophy, which in my opinion, makes
Speaker 6: a lot of sense. It's very reasonable. But again a
Speaker 6: lot of it's speculation. But there was something happening there,
Speaker 6: and there is evidence that there was something other than
Speaker 6: what the official official version is. And I believe that,
Speaker 6: you know there he was going to these places where
Speaker 6: where you know there there was actually a military basis there.
Speaker 6: So why would he look for safe havens near military bases?
Speaker 6: I mean, that doesn't really make much sense, right, I
Speaker 6: mean those areas would be hit first and in nuclear fallout, right,
Speaker 6: So there's a lot of things that don't make sense
Speaker 6: in his scenario trying to travel, you know, and it
Speaker 6: just didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 5: You have it.
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty one, Jones disappears from the public record
Speaker 2: for about six months, and this is after traveling to Guyana,
Speaker 2: And so tell us what happens after that six months
Speaker 2: after he emerges, and what is it about Guyana? And
Speaker 2: it's Paulic in its political state that would be of
Speaker 2: interest to Jim Jones.
Speaker 6: Well, they would certainly back him. It was definitely isolated,
Speaker 6: very isolated. You know, no one would be able to
Speaker 6: get in and out without his, say he was. He
Speaker 6: was able to, you know, build this beautiful community, uh
Speaker 6: that would house his people, and it was it was
Speaker 6: a perfect place for him to isolate these people and
Speaker 6: get their news strictly from him. They weren't able to
Speaker 6: get any outside news. It was it was Jim Jones
Speaker 6: was your CNN. He was in total control, and that's
Speaker 6: that's what he wanted.
Speaker 2: Now, tell us just for this background, because we we
Speaker 2: intimated it and we spoke about it in the synopsis
Speaker 2: about the M Culture experiments. So briefly, tell us what
Speaker 2: you know and what you found out about the M
Speaker 2: culture experiments from CIA.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean MK Ultra is pretty widely known.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: You know, they had they had they had Senate hearings
Speaker 6: in in seventy six and seventy seven, Tight Kennedy's Uh,
Speaker 6: you know, they had the Senate hearings the Health Committee,
Speaker 6: and you know it's they basically were doing experiments, uh
Speaker 6: so many different conduits. You know, there's books and books
Speaker 6: about it, but basically they were doing uh they they
Speaker 6: stole a lot of techniques from the Germans. UH, the
Speaker 6: United States, they took a lot of their scientists, you know,
Speaker 6: after Nuremberg, and they went and uh you know, they developed,
Speaker 6: they developed a lot of the torture techniques and things
Speaker 6: that they were doing in Germany, and US wound up
Speaker 6: developed developing them further and putting them under an umbrella
Speaker 6: of different experiments, and then then and then kind of
Speaker 6: trimming them down into sub projects, and then you know,
Speaker 6: they they just they did a lot of stuff. Give
Speaker 6: me an example. You know, they had safe houses in
Speaker 6: New York and San Francisco and uh CIA agents would
Speaker 6: have you know, prostitutes lore you know, gentlemen back and
Speaker 6: then they would stand behind a glass like you know,
Speaker 6: a glass wall or a glass door, and they would see,
Speaker 6: you know, secretly administer them with LSD and and UH
Speaker 6: and then I guess you know, they would do experiments
Speaker 6: on them. I mean, these are these are well documented.
Speaker 6: There's just so many things that that happened. And you
Speaker 6: CIA would also you know, put money under fake corporations
Speaker 6: to universities, like the Georgetown University was youthed and this
Speaker 6: was all in the paper. I mean, this was widely known,
Speaker 6: and it came out at the time during those sended hearings.
Speaker 6: So I mean, if if you don't know anything about
Speaker 6: MK Ultra anyone out there, I mean, it's certainly part
Speaker 6: of us history that you want to familiarize yourself with
Speaker 6: because it did happen.
Speaker 2: The other fascinating fact that you uncovered too, it's is
Speaker 2: that he had a Q and visa and met Fidel
Speaker 2: Castro after some anti communist speeches. So tell us what
Speaker 2: that might mean. Again, we're already talking about what it means,
Speaker 2: but the significance.
Speaker 6: But I mean, I mean, the first I guess thing
Speaker 6: you'd want to do is if you were teaming up
Speaker 6: with someone who you didn't want anybody to know you
Speaker 6: were teaming up with, would be to talk against them, right,
Speaker 6: I mean, or or or vice. I you know, I
Speaker 6: don't know what what he was trying to do as
Speaker 6: far as with Fidel Castro or Eddie these people. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 6: there's just really no no way to know. But but
Speaker 6: there is evidence. You know that he you know that
Speaker 6: he was he was he was talking to CIA people.
Speaker 6: You know, he knew a lot of CIA people. We
Speaker 6: know Jim Jones did you know, especially in Guyana. So
Speaker 6: we just don't know what where those links led to,
Speaker 6: how far, how deep that rabbit hole went, we just
Speaker 6: don't know. Unfortunately, because his his his you know, the
Speaker 6: FBI is c i A. They purged his records right
Speaker 6: after they had a big file on him, that was
Speaker 6: completely purged right after he died. Unfortunately, we'll never really
Speaker 6: know to what extent that that and how far this
Speaker 6: really went. You know.
Speaker 2: The other fascinating aspect of this person's character, and it's
Speaker 2: important to be able to understand the true scope of
Speaker 2: who he was and what he became, is the revelation that,
Speaker 2: with his wife's I guess permission he was women were
Speaker 2: paying five thousand dollars for Joanes sexual services. So apparently
Speaker 2: he's a very Anyway, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 2: what you found about his jigglo.
Speaker 6: Days was just him being what he had proclaimed, so
Speaker 6: we don't you know, I mean, obviously that might have
Speaker 6: been an exaggeration. I mean, Marceline, you know she did
Speaker 6: say that that you know that that stuff did happen,
Speaker 6: but you know, who knows, maybe that was just what
Speaker 6: what what he was saying and wanted her to say.
Speaker 6: So that he can manipulate people further.
Speaker 2: But it might seem to make sense when you have
Speaker 2: a certain hold on people, when they're giving up their
Speaker 2: property and not sleeping with their spouse and and all
Speaker 2: the things that we'll talk about in in in the future.
Speaker 2: So there might be some credence to it as as unreally.
Speaker 6: Absolutely would be. Yeah, yeah, there absolutely might be. Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: it came it came straight from Jim's mouth, and there
Speaker 6: were there were you know, he didn't he didn't really
Speaker 6: identify and or and we didn't hear what the the
Speaker 6: other person their story, so you know, and then again,
Speaker 6: you know, you have, like I said, we have Debbie
Speaker 6: Layton's story, which you know, she tells a couple of
Speaker 6: stories in her book and I chronicle. You know, one
Speaker 6: of the stories that she told about, you know, Jim
Speaker 6: saying that she was begging him for sex, and we
Speaker 6: know that wasn't true. So you know, I think I
Speaker 6: think we can we're safe to assume that he was
Speaker 6: probably at least skewing the facts there, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean.
Speaker 2: Now, let's talk about this Dan Mittrion again. When Jim
Speaker 2: meets him at sixteen years of age and Mittrion takes
Speaker 2: him under his wing. And now who does Mittrione become
Speaker 2: and what is he getting involved with in terms of
Speaker 2: the CIA and torture and so tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he becomes one of the you know, major CIA
Speaker 6: torturers in history. And again if you don't know anything
Speaker 6: about him, definitely you know, look him up. And there
Speaker 6: is a movie, uh that that is out about his
Speaker 6: life that you you definitely want to check out. It
Speaker 6: was it was it was a major motion picture back
Speaker 6: back in the day. So so you'll you'll be able
Speaker 6: to really get into, you know, what he was about
Speaker 6: and what his life was about. Unfortunately, Jim Jones was
Speaker 6: not you know, his character is not featured in that
Speaker 6: movie but or in the movie in any way. But
Speaker 6: you'll you'll be able to really get a good look
Speaker 6: at at what type of person Matrione was and uh
Speaker 6: and and what he did for the c i A,
Speaker 6: which we thought there were not many nice things.
Speaker 2: So his in the old connection with Mittrion and Brazil
Speaker 2: and again former Nazis and c i A and and
Speaker 2: Jim Jones and his family being there. Tell us now
Speaker 2: about the establishment of People's Temple in San Francisco and
Speaker 2: uh tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 6: Uh well, yeah, I mean in San Francisco is a
Speaker 6: great area for him because you know, the hippies were
Speaker 6: down there. There were a lot of people looking for
Speaker 6: you know, a savior, looking for you know, some anti establishment.
Speaker 6: Uh that That's totally what it was down there in
Speaker 6: San Francisco at that time. So in the in the
Speaker 6: high Hey in Nashbury, uh, you know, affection, So it
Speaker 6: was uh, it was a perfect place for him to
Speaker 6: build this community and get these you know hippie uh
Speaker 6: you know, Harry Krishna type following as well as you know,
Speaker 6: getting uh put it, getting together a congregation of the
Speaker 6: locals who were working class people. So he was able
Speaker 6: to to get you know, just about every type of
Speaker 6: people that were down there a group of people and
Speaker 6: and get them together and get them to rally behind him.
Speaker 6: So it wound up being a really perfect area for him.
Speaker 6: I think that it wound up being the best area.
Speaker 6: Became that home hub for him. You know, even though
Speaker 6: he did operate. I mean they would take bus rides
Speaker 6: all over the place, you know, Atlanta, they would go
Speaker 6: all over to try to recruit people. But that kind
Speaker 6: of became his hub and his place that he really
Speaker 6: really settled it his home.
Speaker 2: Now you in the book, interestingly, you talk about detour
Speaker 2: a little bit and go back to a woman named
Speaker 2: Debbie Layton and how she gets introduced to Jim Jones
Speaker 2: through her brother Larry, who had joined the pimp of
Speaker 2: People's Temple and thinking that he's doing humanitarian work. So
Speaker 2: there's a reason why Debbie Layton is introduced. But tell
Speaker 2: us about Debbie Layton and how she is convinced with
Speaker 2: her you know, some of the stuff that her brother
Speaker 2: Larry tells her about and tell us about this fascinating care.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you know, Debbie Layton has a book
Speaker 6: and uh and and Jeanie Mills has a book as well.
Speaker 6: And to me, you know, you can't talk about the
Speaker 6: story about talking about these two because they they play
Speaker 6: a quintessential role in the rise and fall, particularly the
Speaker 6: fall of Jim Jones. And they also are able to
Speaker 6: really get you know, you really they help you see
Speaker 6: a side of Jones that you you wouldn't see otherwise. Uh.
Speaker 6: You know, So Debbie, you know, got in through her
Speaker 6: brother Larry, and you know, she was kind of a
Speaker 6: troubled child, she didn't really have a direction. She wound
Speaker 6: up meeting Jim. She felt just like I guess, you
Speaker 6: know everyone else who who who joined who wound up
Speaker 6: feeling at home? And you know, she joined and she
Speaker 6: became a staunch member. Yeah, I mean she and then
Speaker 6: she wound up in Jonestown. And when she got to
Speaker 6: Jones since she really saw I guess, just like everyone
Speaker 6: else that you know, it wasn't what they thought it
Speaker 6: would be, and most people wanted to leave almost right away.
Speaker 6: Well let's not just jump ahead quite quite yet. Let's
Speaker 6: let's talk a little bit about how Jim gets to
Speaker 6: basically have He does this incredible favor for Larry. Larry
Speaker 6: is a war objector. He writes a letter to not
Speaker 6: have to go to the war. Barry is so enamored
Speaker 6: by him. He tells his sister Debbie about this People's Temple.
Speaker 6: This is kind of the in the beginning, how he
Speaker 6: builds this really allegiance of of of a core group
Speaker 6: of people that will do anything for him. Right, So
Speaker 6: it's about.
Speaker 2: That those early days in People's Temple, before they get
Speaker 2: the idea that they should go to Guiana, before they
Speaker 2: get the property itself, and or they have has has
Speaker 2: the rasonale that they want to get the hell out
Speaker 2: of the US.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean Jim was pumping, you know, pumping these
Speaker 6: ideas into the head are pretty early on. I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, they got this property in years before you know,
Speaker 6: Jim had I believe Jim got the property started this
Speaker 6: process back in nineteen seventy four. You know, maybe even
Speaker 6: a little a little before that, but it's seventy four
Speaker 6: was officially that you know, he was they started, they
Speaker 6: started head He started heading against congregation in this way
Speaker 6: I guess, you know, hit to get at first, and
Speaker 6: then eventually you know, this was what they were all
Speaker 6: gearing towards. But yeah, I mean, this was this was
Speaker 6: the objective. I mean, this, this was was what what
Speaker 6: he was selling. Let's live communally, and we we can't
Speaker 6: live communally in here. I mean, you know, we can't
Speaker 6: bring all these people and put where we're gonna where
Speaker 6: we're gonna put. We need to build our own facility.
Speaker 6: And it was, you know, it was just thinking, oh,
Speaker 6: it's going to be heaven, It's gonna be beautiful. And
Speaker 6: then once you know, the first settlers of Jonestown were there,
Speaker 6: they would send video back of how gorgeous it was
Speaker 6: and these propaganda videos. So I mean this was this
Speaker 6: was in the works and Jim's idea for many, you know,
Speaker 6: many years. It didn't just happen overnight, you know, did
Speaker 6: he get did it? Was it just his idea? I mean,
Speaker 6: was this some type of nefarious idea that he had,
Speaker 6: you know, with like I said, other people involved, such
Speaker 6: as government agencies. Again and again we could speculate, but
Speaker 6: you know, he had.
Speaker 2: A way too with the philosophy that he learned from
Speaker 2: Father divine there that the idea that even couples that
Speaker 2: would come into the congregation wouldn't be allowed to have
Speaker 2: sex with each other. And you include a story where
Speaker 2: he actually says, listen, I can see that you people
Speaker 2: really aren't right for each other, and they oddly marry
Speaker 2: other people in that congregation hook up and he's sort
Speaker 2: of the matchmaker in there, but shows you the manipulation
Speaker 2: that he is learning rapidly.
Speaker 6: Right, it was, it was it was divide and conquer.
Speaker 6: I mean that's you know, that was his major I
Speaker 6: believe philosophy. And you could see this in many different areas.
Speaker 6: It was divine, it was. It was a divide and
Speaker 6: conquer philosophy. It was you know, he would pit brother
Speaker 6: against brother, sister against brother, mother against son. You know
Speaker 6: if later on in Jonstown you really see this happening
Speaker 6: where he would test people. He would send a father
Speaker 6: to his son and say, you listen, I'm thinking about,
Speaker 6: you know, leaving, I'm thinking about escaping, and then that
Speaker 6: son did not tell the authorities, that son would then
Speaker 6: be you know, scolded, you know, put in in isolation.
Speaker 6: So he really learned to do in doing that, he
Speaker 6: made people not trust each other, therefore dividing everyone, you
Speaker 6: know what I mean. So you couldn't trust your best
Speaker 6: friend because you didn't know if he was tricking you
Speaker 6: or not. Well, he was sent from Jones himself.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating too that you talk about Larry and Caroline.
Speaker 2: He splits up that couple, but them Caroline becomes his confidant.
Speaker 2: He says he's not having sex with Marceline, so he
Speaker 2: starts having sex with Caroline again. It's ironic that he
Speaker 2: forbade sex between couples, And then I guess that's part
Speaker 2: of why he might have looked at Debbie as being
Speaker 2: quite special and in that when he looks at Debbie
Speaker 2: is quite special.
Speaker 6: What is he?
Speaker 2: How far does he go? And what does the kind
Speaker 2: of things that he says to her to convince her
Speaker 2: to come along into this people's temple.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, with with Debbie, I think she was
Speaker 6: at a vulnerable stage in her life and she was
Speaker 6: really looking for uh, you know, to do something. She
Speaker 6: was little kind of the black sheep in the family.
Speaker 6: Everybody else uh in the family where they were they
Speaker 6: were her brothers and sisters were were doing things. You know,
Speaker 6: they were they were you know, they were they were
Speaker 6: had great careers. I mean, you know, they were doing
Speaker 6: great things. And the parents were looked up to them,
Speaker 6: and they looked at dead looked down on Debbie. So
Speaker 6: really I think she was looking to do something. And
Speaker 6: she saw what Larry was doing, this humanitarian work, and
Speaker 6: I guess she felt, you know, this may maybe her calling. Now,
Speaker 6: after she initially met Jones, she went back to school
Speaker 6: and was you know, she was doing something else for
Speaker 6: like a year or so, and he just kept again
Speaker 6: we see more for Shadow, and he kept sending her letters.
Speaker 6: He one of this great letter camp letter writing campaign
Speaker 6: to her, you know, showing that he never forgot about her.
Speaker 6: That she could be an integral part of the of
Speaker 6: the church that she you know, just making her feel
Speaker 6: like they needed her. And that's you know, at that point,
Speaker 6: I guess with no other direction, and and you got
Speaker 6: this powerful man telling you, you know, of this large
Speaker 6: organization that they need you. I'm sure that that that,
Speaker 6: you know, pushed her over the edge and uh and
Speaker 6: drew her in pretty pretty hard.
Speaker 2: He matches her up as well with with a couple
Speaker 2: of devout Temple members which are Tim and gray Stone,
Speaker 2: and they she stays at their home, so again further
Speaker 2: convincing her how great and wonderful Jim Jones is. Caroline.
Speaker 2: Again we've didn't mention Caroline actually believes Jim Jones is
Speaker 2: the reincarnation of Jesus, doesn't she.
Speaker 6: She doesn't and as well as many other members too. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 6: And Callen actually becomes Calvin becomes his uh in effect
Speaker 6: that he says later on, the only woman he truly
Speaker 6: you know, is the like the love of his life.
Speaker 6: So you know, she wound up being his really his
Speaker 6: They at a top level person really the next in
Speaker 6: charge next to him.
Speaker 2: To demonstrate the level of success that Jones is having
Speaker 2: and his People's temples. By seventy two, he has he's
Speaker 2: holding and running several properties, you say, And they have
Speaker 2: these Christian science church building in Los Angeles, San Francisco's
Speaker 2: People Temple, and a temple in Yucaia, and which you
Speaker 2: say has a forty foot indoor swimming pool, a forty
Speaker 2: acre children's home, three convalescence centers, and three college dormitories.
Speaker 2: They also run a Heroin rehabilitation center and their own
Speaker 2: what they're calling their own welfare system. So he's getting in.
Speaker 2: The temple is getting big, and they are doing those
Speaker 2: kinds of things in the community, giving back to the community,
Speaker 2: which is convincing more and more members, isn't it.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, of course, and not not just members. I mean,
Speaker 6: you know other people are seeing this. You know, political
Speaker 6: leaders are seeing all this work that's being done. I mean,
Speaker 6: how could you overlook that? You know what what this
Speaker 6: this guy's able to accomplish, this is these are huge
Speaker 6: accomplishments for back in that time. So again you can
Speaker 6: see how he starts to really win over public opinion.
Speaker 6: I mean they also you know, they have they get
Speaker 6: their own printing present at some point, you know, they're
Speaker 6: putting out a magazine or a newspaper, you know, I
Speaker 6: mean they're they're they're really really expanding and spreading their wings,
Speaker 6: you know, more than than than any other establishment like
Speaker 6: them is doing, and they start to become you know,
Speaker 6: very far reaching for for that time.
Speaker 2: It's interesting right at this time though, that he gets
Speaker 2: so I guess narcissism takes over and he's they're making
Speaker 2: claims that he has raised a Los Angeles man from
Speaker 2: the dead. Now this raises the well, the media is
Speaker 2: interested and they're ready to publish a bunch of articles.
Speaker 2: But very much like reminiscent of scientology and it's campaign
Speaker 2: to silence critics, tell us about what People's Temple does
Speaker 2: the silence critics?
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I mean they use a lot of threats. Again,
Speaker 6: they use that letter writing letter writing campaigns, you know,
Speaker 6: they have they have several different uh tactics to do.
Speaker 6: So you got to remember this. You know, this was
Speaker 6: a time before Twitter and you know, Facebook and mass
Speaker 6: mass media. I mean, we really didn't have anything like that.
Speaker 6: So you know, when when when somebody's raising someone from
Speaker 6: the dead and you hear about this, it becomes almost
Speaker 6: like this mythological thing that that the you know, is
Speaker 6: spread around, you know, and and and unfortunately, like you said,
Speaker 6: you don't have you don't have that firsthand view. So
Speaker 6: you're hearing second, third, fourth hand views of things, and uh,
Speaker 6: it becomes legendary.
Speaker 2: Part of the manipulation, he says, is that if they
Speaker 2: again it seems reminiscent of scientology as well too, is
Speaker 2: that they they said, if you ever were to lead
Speaker 2: the church, you would be reincarnated as like a slug
Speaker 2: to take you one hundred thousand years to get back
Speaker 2: to where you were in terms of progressing. So all
Speaker 2: kinds of discouragement, uh, for leading the church. And we'll
Speaker 2: see how far he goes with that idea.
Speaker 6: Right right, Yeah, I mean you know that's that's one
Speaker 6: of many, uh you know, little techniques that that Jones
Speaker 6: has to to keep his people in mind. I mean,
Speaker 6: he he has so many at this point, and he'll
Speaker 6: he'll use anything, He'll say anything, I mean as outrageous.
Speaker 2: Well, we have had a we'll survive. Just drop off
Speaker 2: our conversation. We will let him come back. I guess
Speaker 2: he will have to call back in and we'll continue
Speaker 2: our conversation about jonestown. Don't drink the kool aid. Very interesting.
Speaker 2: We're just about to talk about Jim Jones and his plans,
Speaker 2: the actual plans that he puts forward with his followers
Speaker 2: to make the exodus to Guana, South America and build
Speaker 2: the People's Temple compound compound called Jonestown in Guyana, in
Speaker 2: the remote jungles of Guyana, South America. And as we
Speaker 2: and Will has alluded to, there are powerful people including
Speaker 2: Rosalind Carter, Harvey Milk, Congressman in San Francisco, and other
Speaker 2: political and important allies, political allies that are looking at
Speaker 2: Jim Jones experiment with and looking at it optimistically that
Speaker 2: it's something that they can learn from, and looking to
Speaker 2: Jim Jones as a benevolent leader doing good social socially
Speaker 2: addressing social issues, and so that there was something to
Speaker 2: look at and admire in the Jonestown experiment, uh and
Speaker 2: in the People's Temple itself and the things that we
Speaker 2: were trying to achieve. Now Will has dropped off, so
Speaker 2: we will give this about five minutes. Again, we would
Speaker 2: be going about probably well over the hour and a
Speaker 2: half mark of the program, which I'd like to keep
Speaker 2: it to about an hour and a half. This is
Speaker 2: really it is a and we've taken this long to
Speaker 2: get to this point, but things rapidly again we'll say
Speaker 2: deteriorate is a is not an appropriate term. But in
Speaker 2: getting involved with the Congressman le O'Ryan and the US
Speaker 2: government eventually investigating claims of some people's temple members that
Speaker 2: are not happy with this Jim Jones utopia. And so
Speaker 2: this book, like I say, you have to get the
Speaker 2: groundwork for the history behind this incredible time, the context,
Speaker 2: the history, the again everything that we've laid out to
Speaker 2: be able to fully understand what happens at Jonestown, why,
Speaker 2: and some of the connections that Will has made with
Speaker 2: the Dan Mettreon and the CIA, the MK ultra experiments
Speaker 2: in mind control. It's a very very fascinating time in
Speaker 2: American history and Jonn's town and Jim Jones are part
Speaker 2: of that. A very fascinating story at that time in
Speaker 2: history and again becoming one of the most important moments
Speaker 2: in history, the Jonestown, Jonestown murders, mass suicide and the
Speaker 2: murders of congressmen and some of his other people that
Speaker 2: were involved in going over to Jonestown for the investigation
Speaker 2: and media interviews. So it looks like will survive is
Speaker 2: might not reconnect. So I will use this as an
Speaker 2: opportunity to please take a look at his book Jonestown,
Speaker 2: Don't Drink the kool Aid, The complete story behind the
Speaker 2: mysterious Jim Jones and his exodus to Guenna. Thank you
Speaker 2: very much, have a great evening.