WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:04.320 Mister Gorbachoff teared down this wall. 2 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.679 It's the Ricochet Podcast. I'm James Lylax Stephen Hayward this 3 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:09.679 year and we're going to talk to Daniel Mahoney about 4 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:13.080 the totalitarian impulse and whether or not Donald Trump but uh, 5 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:16.960 tone it down or not. So let's everselves a podcast. 6 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:22.199 We are part of one civilization, Western civilization. We are 7 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:24.879 bound to one another by the deepest bonds that nations 8 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:33.759 could share, forged by centuries of shared history, Christian faith, culture, heritage, language, ancestry, 9 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:38.079 and the sacrifices our forefathers made together for the common 10 00:00:38.119 --> 00:00:41.399 civilization to which we have fallen air. 11 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:45.799 Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast. Number get this seven 12 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:49.840 hundred and seventy seven. I'm sure that's lucky somewhere. Why 13 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.359 don't you play it in the lottery today or even 14 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:54.520 better investment of your money. Go to ricochet dot com 15 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.359 Join up, sign up part of the most stimulating conversations 16 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.920 and community on the web. I'm James Lylax in Minnesota, 17 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:03.520 where it was wonderful and warm, and the sun came 18 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:06.480 out and all the snow melted, and then six inches fell, 19 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.400 which taxed the ability of my little Toro to get 20 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:16.480 it my back, my back, But that's neither here nor there. 21 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:20.680 Somebody who was not here but is there is Stephen Yward. Stephen, 22 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:21.120 how you doing. 23 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:25.280 I'm good, James. How are you snow blowing challenges? 24 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.519 That's a fraud question these days, But you know, here 25 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.560 we are. Minnesota seems to have calmed down a little bit. 26 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:33.319 I have no idea if I is working at the 27 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.840 same level it did before, but the whistle blowing and 28 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:37.879 the protests and all the rest of it seems to 29 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:43.799 have subsided, so that perhaps and then you know, National 30 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.359 Nightmarre has moved elsewhere. But that doesn't mean that the 31 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.840 world isn't full of things to discuss. And no, I 32 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.680 don't mean to imply that if Minneapolis is having troubles, 33 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:57.200 it's something that everybody has to constantly think about. I'm 34 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:03.480 tired of it myself. Tariffs by yeah, well go completely sorry, 35 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:05.560 go ahead, No, bring us up to speed on this. 36 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.319 This is a new development. I'm sure everybody is keen 37 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:11.879 to know what you think and what is next then 38 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.319 exactly what was said, what was struck down? 39 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.960 Right? So what the court ruling released this morning and 40 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.120 it's one hundred and seventy pages long, and I've barely 41 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:23.080 gotten through about two pages that I'm I'm trying to 42 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.919 grab the main threads because there's all these partial concurrences 43 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.840 and then the scent. So it's six 's three vote, 44 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.680 I should say that, and the three dissenters were not 45 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.840 the three Liberals. It's Thomas, Alito and Cavanaugh. Something of 46 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:40.560 a surprise. I would have thought Kavanaugh would have been 47 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:44.280 in the majority on this second. I'm sorry Charlie's not 48 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.639 here because he's already tweeted out that the decision was 49 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.159 absolutely correct and it should have been nine zero. And 50 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.120 I understand his argument, and I think I sympathize with it. 51 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.840 But what it said was is that Trump does not 52 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:59.919 have unlimited scope to impose tariffs under a particular statute, 53 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:04.800 the What International Emergencies Economic Emergencies Act something like that. 54 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.479 I don't have it in front of me, But that 55 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.159 does not strike down all tariff power. He still has 56 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.639 Section three h one and retaliatory tariffs, and that goes 57 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.919 back decades. And I mean, I looked this up once. 58 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.960 You know, Ronald Reagan free Trader threatened Spain in nineteen 59 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.039 eighty six with two hundred percent tariffs on everything, because 60 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.960 Spain had a bunch of really bogus trade barriers against 61 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.759 American agricultural imports, and Spain folded and lifted all those 62 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.599 within forty eight hours. So that power. But that's always 63 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:39.520 retaliatory power, or against clearly determined unfair trade practices by 64 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:42.639 our trading partners. Trump wanted sure stuff. 65 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:44.560 I mean, doesn't it go without saying that was the 66 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.039 motivation that Trump was choosing that it was that they 67 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.199 had unfair barriers to us, and therefore we're going to 68 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.159 do it to them. I don't buy the emergency thing. 69 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.120 The emergency thing is like one of those little weasel 70 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:55.520 words they use in government to just addy absolutely everything, 71 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.840 like interstar commerce, right. But retaliatory yeah, I mean, if 72 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.759 somebody's got a big tariff wall against our products and 73 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.039 we do the same, why is that not within the 74 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:04.879 scope of the powers? 75 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.199 Yeah, well it's because Trump didn't invoke Section three oh 76 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:11.400 one or it's a tool. I forget the numbers because 77 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:14.240 I'm not a trade expert. But instead he invoked a 78 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.040 statute from the seventies and it had, you know, as 79 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.879 the words in it about the power to regulate foreign 80 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:24.600 commerce under emergency circumstances, which is up to the President 81 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.480 to determine, but regulate is not the same as tax, 82 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.480 is what the Court is saying in the majority opinion. 83 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:36.160 So okay, he can probably still impose some of these 84 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:39.920 tariffs under other legal authorities the President retains that have 85 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.800 not were not challenged or not before the court. Whether 86 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:45.399 he can do things like, for example, the threatening the 87 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.639 big tariffs on Indian and other countries to stop them 88 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.800 from trading in Russian oil. They may have just wiped 89 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.199 out that power, and gosh, that's something an awful lot 90 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:56.639 of pro Ukrainian people are. People are critical of Trump 91 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.879 kind of like right now. So this is an odd circumstance. 92 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:04.040 There is an interesting, curious subtext to the case that 93 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.759 I picked up on so far, which is that the 94 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.040 case relies in part on statutory construction. That the statute 95 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:12.639 simply doesn't grant that brought a power to impose tariffs 96 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:17.839 as a remedy for controlling foreign trade. But the major 97 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.279 questions doctrine. That's what Chief Justice Roberts brought up, which is, look, 98 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:26.839 whatever the ambiguities may be, and I'm paraphrasing very widely here, 99 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:31.360 Congress needs to be clear about it and specific under 100 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.720 the new doctrine the Court embraced two three years ago, 101 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.720 the major questions doctrine. Well, guess what the three liberals 102 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.839 on the Court who sided the Roberts. They filed separate 103 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.560 concurrences saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't want to Essentially, 104 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:43.879 what they're saying is, we don't want to use that 105 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.240 major questions doctrine because that is a major impediment to 106 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.600 the administrative state ruled by bureaucrats that the left depends 107 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.120 upon these days. So I think it also means not 108 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:57.399 to go on too long about this. I think it 109 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.439 also means that the the big move we talked about 110 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.079 last week, repealing the endangerment finding for the EPA to 111 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.959 regulate climate I think it means that that is, the 112 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.240 Trump's moves are likely to be held up under the 113 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.879 same doctrine of a major questions doctrine, And so in 114 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.279 a collateral way, this decision is bad news for the 115 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:18.800 environmentalists and the climate cult. 116 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.839 Is there a minor questions doctrine? Imagine when it comes 117 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.319 to when it comes to government and emergencies, Imagine everything 118 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.959 is a major coe. So it the s and P. 119 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:33.040 Five hundred of course leaped up after this, and everybody says, well, great, okay, 120 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.879 this is back to the old order. But the old order, 121 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:39.920 we're told, the globalist order of free trade and the 122 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.079 rest of it has fallen under. Let's see a cloud, 123 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.680 a dark cloud in the last year two years or so, 124 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.720 as everybody looks around us says, wait a minute. What 125 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:49.800 we were supposed to get to was a frictionless world, 126 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.480 the end of history, everything being flat, everything being interesting. 127 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.160 We get cheap, cheap stuff, there are standard of living 128 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.120 goes up. A lot of people looked at that bargain 129 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.720 and said, wait a minute, No, this didn't readown to 130 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:02.920 our benefit. What we got was the hollowing out of 131 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:07.759 American industry. We got barriers to immigration, drops so that 132 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.199 society becomes diluted, et cetera, et cetera, all of the 133 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.079 things about globalism that people don't like. Does this mean 134 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:16.360 globalism is back on the menu, boys, as they would say, 135 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.920 as the orcs might say, or have we moved beyond 136 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:22.040 that to a case by case basis where we're still 137 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:25.279 going to be protecting American industries and attempting to re 138 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.519 shure as much as possible, because that's what interests me 139 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.040 about this whole thing. I didn't like. I don't like tariffs. 140 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.680 And part of the reason I don't like tariffs is 141 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:37.360 because I was awake in junior high and learned that 142 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.519 Smoot Hawley killed everything. I mean, we all have our narratives, right, 143 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:43.360 Smooth Holly came along, tariffs went up. Things were bad, 144 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.480 stock market was too frothy. Everyone was buying things on 145 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.000 the margin, and then it crashed and the bankers jumped 146 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.839 out of the window or sold apples on the corner 147 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:54.560 or both. You know, if they had a stock pointing. 148 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:57.480 That's what I So I've always had in the back 149 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.839 of my head an aversion to tariffs, even though you 150 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.639 know they paved the way for the budgets for decades. 151 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:07.519 I mean, that's it's interesting to watch that movie about 152 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.199 the assassination of Garfield and realize, you know, how much 153 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.639 power the guys who ran the ports and did the 154 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.480 tariffs had. I mean, there's an extraordinary money maker for 155 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.639 them in the times. But anyway, so I don't like them. 156 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.399 But the part that didn't bother me necessarily was the 157 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:25.879 part that said we are going to look at critical 158 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:29.000 supply chains. We're going to provide incentives for country, for 159 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:30.959 companies to come back to the US and build I 160 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.039 like that. Everyone says you're dreaming if you think they're 161 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.600 going to make whirlpool washing machines in Columbus, Ohio anymore. 162 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.240 Part of me says, but then let me dream, because 163 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.159 they're while I pine sort of for aspects of the 164 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.039 past that we may romanticize a little bit. There is 165 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:54.360 something to be said for having a solid, productive industrial base. 166 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:56.320 And then people quote the numbers that you actually with 167 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.120 this are the industry we have Now everything's fire. We 168 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:00.720 all know in our heart of arts that we'd be 169 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:04.120 happy if iPhones were made here, if washing machines and 170 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.440 microwaves were made here, if all the drugs were made here, 171 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:10.519 if we didn't have to rely on China for everything. 172 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.960 So that's my incoherent, romantic and unsubstantiated beef against Tariff's 173 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:16.960 promo con which is why I'm not on the is 174 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:18.159 why I'm not in the Supreme Court. 175 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.279 Yes, well, I mean, the big problem with trade going 176 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:23.360 back decades is not so much to other countries have 177 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.240 tariffs against this, straightforward tariffs of ten percent or something. 178 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.279 It's that they employ a lot of non tariff trade barriers. 179 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.720 They're called in other words, yes you can send American 180 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.879 cars to Japan, but then they let out a bunch 181 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.080 of conditions which make it expensive or impossible to do so. 182 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.159 But because they're not formally a tariff, you could ensue 183 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.159 at the International Trade Court or whatever it's called world 184 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.440 the WTO it's called now okay. So as insofar as 185 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.720 Trump wanted to use this whole exercise as a way 186 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.679 to blast a part remaining trade barriers and also secure 187 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:58.639 supply chains, like you'd say, I was all for it 188 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.159 and willing to go along with it. And by the way, 189 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.039 if we ever do make washing machines here in the 190 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:05.879 country again, and I think we might, it will be 191 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.600 made by human beings, will be made by robots. And 192 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.879 that process is already very far along, right. 193 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:12.840 I know, I know that's that's the part that you 194 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:14.919 realize that it would not be guys toiling away with 195 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:16.720 a lunch bucket who would go home when the whistle 196 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.720 blew that it would be made. Then we think, well, 197 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:20.279 it's going to be made by robots. So we're going 198 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.679 to need lots of programmers to design and build those things, 199 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:24.399 and now out of the point where, well, actually we 200 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.159 don't because AI can design and program those things. And 201 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.960 you know, essentially what used to be one big, huge 202 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.480 factory in the end of town with a smoke belching 203 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.960 out of the stack and grimy men leaving at the 204 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.039 end of the day to get into their DeSotos and 205 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:40.519 go home to their small little house. The American dream 206 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:42.759 actually turns out to be one guy in Miami who's 207 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:46.320 sitting there filling a winner's laptop. So and what everybody 208 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.159 else does for what everybody else does for a living, 209 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:49.399 I'm not exactly sure. 210 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:53.559 Right, Well, there's one last loose end about the case 211 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.320 today that I'm sure some listeners will wonder about. Is 212 00:10:57.399 --> 00:10:59.559 what about the one hundred and fifty billion whatever the 213 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:02.720 number is in tariff revenues the Trump is collected from 214 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.200 which he was promising two thousand dollars checks to all 215 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:08.120 of us. Do those have to be refunded? That question 216 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:10.840 was not before the court today, and so they said 217 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:12.840 nothing about that. And I think there may be some 218 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.000 lawsuits filed saying from companies or somebody saying, hey, we 219 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:18.120 was one of the costs of these terraffs. Now you 220 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:21.559 owe the money back. Which will further further make our 221 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:23.879 whole fiscal situation so much brighter, won't it? 222 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.919 Oh so much so? All right, let's turn our eyes 223 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.320 elsewhere across the pond to Europe. Europe is in a 224 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:31.519 parlous situation. 225 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:32.120 It is. 226 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:39.240 Caught in a world in which its influence is shrinking. 227 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:42.600 It has overestimated its soft power, It has made suicidal 228 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.399 bargains when it comes to its energy policy, in its 229 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:51.000 demographic makeup Western Europe, and it is becoming essentially sort 230 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:52.879 of a theme park with nice old buildings and in 231 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:56.559 half a little tight town, compacted town squares with winding, 232 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.480 twisting little streets where you can get a good pay. 233 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.799 Marco Rubio went there and laid down some markers and 234 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.759 some truths. People are seeing it as a book. ND 235 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:11.279 to the last year's fans speech packed the conference, the 236 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.960 Munich Security Conference. You know, whenever you hear about Munich conferences, 237 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.960 I tend to shift in my seat a little bit, right. 238 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.960 But you know, he opened it talking with the origins 239 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.399 about how the continent had been riven by the Cold War. 240 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:27.120 And I remember those days as you do too. Barbed 241 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.879 wire laid down in Berlin and the guard posts went 242 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:34.639 up a nuclear proliferation Soviet Union on the March, And 243 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.960 I mean you probably, like me, Steve grew up seeing 244 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.360 the Eastern Bloc as just a fact of history that 245 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.799 wasn't going to be dissolved anytime soon. It just it 246 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.159 seemed it seemed set in concrete. But of course Soviet 247 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.480 concrete was pretty cheap, and after a while it falls 248 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.600 away and crumbles. Rubio said, united not just by what 249 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.320 we were fighting against. We were united by what we 250 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:02.600 were fighting for. And that's true. Underneath that, however, of course, 251 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.960 was an anti American strain that was built both perhaps 252 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.200 a little bit of resentment, but mostly by resurgent leftism, 253 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.320 which regarded the United States as colonial and awful and 254 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:16.120 you know, unfit to lead the world into its brave, 255 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.240 new collective future. People are praising this speech as a 256 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.000 re establishment of a commitment to a certain kind of 257 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.559 way of looking at the world. Is it passe? Is 258 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.879 it just simply return with a V and avatars on X, 259 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.840 with the classical statuary and bygun nostalgia for a world 260 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:38.480 that is simply no longer able to be put back together. 261 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.639 Yeah, I liked how you put up that it was 262 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.639 a bookend from JD. Vance's very tough speech last year. 263 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.000 I think you could call it good cop bad cop, 264 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.159 because the substance of Rubio's speech tracked very closely with 265 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.039 what Vance said, but the difference was in the rhetorical 266 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:56.279 style of it. It was more reagan Esque. In fact, 267 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.080 it reminded me a lot of Reagan's famous to me. 268 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:00.960 You may remember too, his speech that he gave in 269 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.559 London in nineteen eighty two about the meaning of the 270 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:05.639 Cold War and why not only are our ideas better, 271 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:07.559 but Marxism is a failure and we're going to transcend 272 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.000 them and they're going to end up on the ash 273 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.960 heap of history, heap of history, right. You know, Oh, 274 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:14.840 it was a wonderful larcenary of old Marxist rhetoric. And 275 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:17.200 I do remember the New York Times saying, oh, this 276 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.879 is Cold War rhetoric from the fifties. Isn't this terrible? 277 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:22.360 And that was you know, a year later it comes 278 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.159 back with the Evil Empire speech. Right, that was sort 279 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.240 of the JD events at Reagan. But look, the content was, 280 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.919 I say, tracked pretty well but well received, partly because 281 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:36.120 Rubio's stock is rising. Second, I do think I got 282 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:40.240 standing ovation, they say, I did notice, like Reagan's speech 283 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.879 in eighty two that the sainted Alexandria Ocasio Cortez complained 284 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.480 that he was talking about Western civilization, and how terrible 285 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:48.799 that is. 286 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.159 I mean, he promoted those Let me read the quote, 287 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:54.200 which our producer has kindly provided for me. It says, 288 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:59.480 here we are part of one civilization, Western civilization. We 289 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.840 are abou to one another by the deepest bonds that 290 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:10.120 nations could share, forged by centuries of shared history, Christian faith, culture, heritage, language, ancestry, 291 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.519 and the sacrifices our forefathers made together for the common 292 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.759 civilization to which we have fallen. Heir. I mean, yeah, 293 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:22.759 but a lot of people get angry about that. And oh, 294 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:26.399 on the on the mind Cortes, I love the fact 295 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.320 the last name is literally a Spaniard who came over 296 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.960 and wiped out an indigenous empire. But I mean people 297 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.639 have been nitpicking this apart and saying this is absolutely preposterous. 298 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.440 Somebody living in Lithuania has has nothing to do whatsoever 299 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.279 really with somebody living in Portugal, somebody in the Hebrides. 300 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.360 What have they got to do with somebody living in Greece? 301 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.039 And to me, it's a petty, even meritricious way of 302 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.799 looking at it, because obviously there is something called Western sieve, 303 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.320 and it's you know, the only time the left seems 304 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.720 to acknowledge it is when it's sandwiched between the phrases 305 00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.919 haho and has to. 306 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.159 Go yeah yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's 307 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.080 not even the subtext of the speech. But I think 308 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.600 what's really going on here is Europe has lost confidence 309 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.039 in itself and its heritage when they're not in fact 310 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.279 hostile to it, right. And I think that's what's different 311 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:16.679 from say forty to fifty years ago, when we were 312 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.120 often frustrated with our European allies for being weak, for 313 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.320 being two appeasement minded to the Soviet Union. But now 314 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.159 it's worse. And I'll just give you one instance right 315 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.840 now that's not getting a lot of attention in the 316 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.840 American press. Is so, you know, when Reagan decided to 317 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.159 bomb Libya nineteen eighty six, after they had bombed the 318 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.159 disco in Berlin, our bombers took off. You may remember this, James, 319 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.720 from an airfield that we run in Britain which we 320 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.960 still have the base rights there, that had to fly 321 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:46.080 around the straight of Zibalder because France said no, okay, 322 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:49.200 leave that aside for the moment. But right now the 323 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.960 British are denying us permission to use that base and 324 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.799 also the Diego Garcia base and the Indian Ocean for 325 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.360 any operations against Iran. At least that's what's being reported 326 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.639 right now. And you know, this is an outrage, right, 327 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:06.400 this is an exact and because look, the attitude of 328 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.680 Europe toward Iran, especially England has been in full appeasement 329 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:14.279 mode really since nineteen eighty, right, so this is very frustrating. 330 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:18.640 And I'm sure, well Rubio is, you know, a kinder 331 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.200 and gentler version of Vans in his speech. I hope 332 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.039 and expect that behind the scenes he was giving him 333 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.079 the business about this. 334 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.240 I hope so too. There's nothing I read out of 335 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.119 England and their politics that makes it well, actually, there's 336 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.039 quite a bit, because you have a group now, a 337 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.839 new party, which is at full throated expressing what a 338 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:37.279 lot of people have said needs to be done for 339 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.960 Britain and whether it makes you know, it makes reform 340 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.240 look like look frankly wet. But we can get to 341 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.200 that in a minute right now, we're going to talk 342 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:51.519 to Daniel Mahoney. Daniel J. Mahoney, Professor Emeritus at Assumption University, 343 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.680 where he tried from eighty six until twenty twenty one, 344 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.880 Senior Fellow with the Claremont Institute, Senior writer at Law 345 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.000 and Liberty, and Executive editor of Perspectives on Political Science. 346 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.160 Is twenty twenty two book The Statesman as Thinker Portraits 347 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.200 of Greatness, Courage and Moderation received the Award for Conservative 348 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.519 Book of the Year by ISI in twenty twenty three. 349 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.119 In his latest book is The Persistence of the Ideological Lie, 350 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:20.759 The Totalitarian Impulse Then and now fascinating topics. Let's get 351 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:26.400 right to it, Daniel, welcome my pleasure. Well, so earlier 352 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.119 this week you were a piece called discipline at a 353 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.839 moment of power. And it's a critique, a measured critique 354 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.480 of the administration from a and let's use your description. 355 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.039 I believe a friend but not a flatterer of Donald Trump. 356 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.440 All right, so let's just get right to it. Why 357 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.839 does Trump have a duty to outgrow the worst of 358 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.440 his excesses. Everyone always says, oh, it's the mean tweets, 359 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.920 but it's it's it's more than that. 360 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:57.559 Look, whenever you proper this kind of advice toward Trump 361 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:02.559 or the administration, a thousand voice rise in unison and say, 362 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.519 but he won't change, it'll do no good. Look, we're 363 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:10.319 obliged to point out these things, partly because some of 364 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:17.759 this behavior affects self presentation are very self defeating, and 365 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.759 partly for intellectual and moral hygiene. You can support this administration. 366 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.680 It's brought goals many of the specifics of what it's done. 367 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.759 You could acknowledge that Donald Trump has been the only 368 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.359 person in the political class in recent years who's willing 369 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.519 to face up to the crisis the country is facing, 370 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:41.559 the sort of active subversion of our constitutional order, the 371 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.920 moral foundations, and democracy. But you can also acknowledge that 372 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:51.319 his modus operendi is a sometimes a self defeating mixed bag. 373 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:58.039 And you know, I think the president really never learned 374 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:04.400 that there's a veryubstantial difference between campaigning and governing. When 375 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.359 you govern, I mean, even maga partisans want you to 376 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:13.559 sometimes be presidential. And as I said at my piece, 377 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.319 we owe in the language and the Declaration of Independence 378 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.759 a decent respect to the opinions of mankind. 379 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.400 Before we go further some examples. Do you think of 380 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.319 the self defeating behavior? Just we got some stuff on 381 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:25.720 the table. 382 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:33.759 Well, look, I said, probably the most extreme and dramatic 383 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.960 example I gave, and I gave it because dozens of 384 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.920 people I knew who were generally supportive of this administration 385 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.000 were very much taken back by it. The remarks about 386 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.759 Rob Reiner and his wife when the son was killed, 387 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:53.279 but the son killed them, and Trump's reaction was just unacceptable. 388 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:58.519 It was narcissistic, it was brazen, it was petty, and 389 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.920 the high minded thing to do would have also been 390 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.599 the self interested thing to do. Just be magnanimous. We 391 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.680 didn't agree on anything, but this is a human tragedy, 392 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:14.039 absolutely lamentable, et cetera. And that small mindedness hurts, and 393 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:19.440 there's no there's no use in pretending it doesn't. And 394 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.680 I happen to be in Europe during the whole Greenland thing, 395 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:29.240 and I saw something very ominous. I saw conservative and 396 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:34.720 conservative populist thinkers very very were well disposed to trumpet 397 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:41.480 it defended him, really react extremely negatively to what they 398 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:48.240 perceived is bullying. And and you know when Stephen Miller says, look, 399 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:50.920 how did the Dans get Greenland. Well, you know, three 400 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.039 boats went there and all that. Well, does anyone get 401 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:54.559