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Speaker 1: Mister Gorbachoff teared down this wall.

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Speaker 2: It's the Ricochet Podcast. I'm James Lylax Stephen Hayward this

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year and we're going to talk to Daniel Mahoney about

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the totalitarian impulse and whether or not Donald Trump but uh,

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tone it down or not. So let's everselves a podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are part of one civilization, Western civilization. We are

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bound to one another by the deepest bonds that nations

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could share, forged by centuries of shared history, Christian faith, culture, heritage, language, ancestry,

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and the sacrifices our forefathers made together for the common

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civilization to which we have fallen air.

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Speaker 2: Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast. Number get this seven

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hundred and seventy seven. I'm sure that's lucky somewhere. Why

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don't you play it in the lottery today or even

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better investment of your money. Go to ricochet dot com

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Join up, sign up part of the most stimulating conversations

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and community on the web. I'm James Lylax in Minnesota,

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where it was wonderful and warm, and the sun came

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out and all the snow melted, and then six inches fell,

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which taxed the ability of my little Toro to get

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it my back, my back, But that's neither here nor there.

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Somebody who was not here but is there is Stephen Yward. Stephen,

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how you doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm good, James. How are you snow blowing challenges?

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Speaker 2: That's a fraud question these days, But you know, here

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we are. Minnesota seems to have calmed down a little bit.

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I have no idea if I is working at the

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same level it did before, but the whistle blowing and

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the protests and all the rest of it seems to

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have subsided, so that perhaps and then you know, National

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Nightmarre has moved elsewhere. But that doesn't mean that the

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world isn't full of things to discuss. And no, I

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don't mean to imply that if Minneapolis is having troubles,

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it's something that everybody has to constantly think about. I'm

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tired of it myself. Tariffs by yeah, well go completely sorry,

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go ahead, No, bring us up to speed on this.

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This is a new development. I'm sure everybody is keen

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to know what you think and what is next then

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exactly what was said, what was struck down?

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Speaker 3: Right? So what the court ruling released this morning and

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it's one hundred and seventy pages long, and I've barely

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gotten through about two pages that I'm I'm trying to

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grab the main threads because there's all these partial concurrences

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and then the scent. So it's six 's three vote,

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I should say that, and the three dissenters were not

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the three Liberals. It's Thomas, Alito and Cavanaugh. Something of

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a surprise. I would have thought Kavanaugh would have been

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in the majority on this second. I'm sorry Charlie's not

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here because he's already tweeted out that the decision was

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absolutely correct and it should have been nine zero. And

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I understand his argument, and I think I sympathize with it.

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But what it said was is that Trump does not

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have unlimited scope to impose tariffs under a particular statute,

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the What International Emergencies Economic Emergencies Act something like that.

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I don't have it in front of me, But that

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does not strike down all tariff power. He still has

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Section three h one and retaliatory tariffs, and that goes

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back decades. And I mean, I looked this up once.

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You know, Ronald Reagan free Trader threatened Spain in nineteen

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eighty six with two hundred percent tariffs on everything, because

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Spain had a bunch of really bogus trade barriers against

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American agricultural imports, and Spain folded and lifted all those

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within forty eight hours. So that power. But that's always

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retaliatory power, or against clearly determined unfair trade practices by

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our trading partners. Trump wanted sure stuff.

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Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't it go without saying that was the

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motivation that Trump was choosing that it was that they

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had unfair barriers to us, and therefore we're going to

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do it to them. I don't buy the emergency thing.

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The emergency thing is like one of those little weasel

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words they use in government to just addy absolutely everything,

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like interstar commerce, right. But retaliatory yeah, I mean, if

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somebody's got a big tariff wall against our products and

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we do the same, why is that not within the

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scope of the powers?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's because Trump didn't invoke Section three oh

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one or it's a tool. I forget the numbers because

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I'm not a trade expert. But instead he invoked a

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statute from the seventies and it had, you know, as

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the words in it about the power to regulate foreign

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commerce under emergency circumstances, which is up to the President

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to determine, but regulate is not the same as tax,

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is what the Court is saying in the majority opinion.

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So okay, he can probably still impose some of these

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tariffs under other legal authorities the President retains that have

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not were not challenged or not before the court. Whether

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he can do things like, for example, the threatening the

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big tariffs on Indian and other countries to stop them

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from trading in Russian oil. They may have just wiped

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out that power, and gosh, that's something an awful lot

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of pro Ukrainian people are. People are critical of Trump

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kind of like right now. So this is an odd circumstance.

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There is an interesting, curious subtext to the case that

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I picked up on so far, which is that the

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case relies in part on statutory construction. That the statute

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simply doesn't grant that brought a power to impose tariffs

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as a remedy for controlling foreign trade. But the major

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questions doctrine. That's what Chief Justice Roberts brought up, which is, look,

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whatever the ambiguities may be, and I'm paraphrasing very widely here,

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Congress needs to be clear about it and specific under

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the new doctrine the Court embraced two three years ago,

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the major questions doctrine. Well, guess what the three liberals

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on the Court who sided the Roberts. They filed separate

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concurrences saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't want to Essentially,

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what they're saying is, we don't want to use that

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major questions doctrine because that is a major impediment to

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the administrative state ruled by bureaucrats that the left depends

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upon these days. So I think it also means not

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to go on too long about this. I think it

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also means that the the big move we talked about

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last week, repealing the endangerment finding for the EPA to

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regulate climate I think it means that that is, the

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Trump's moves are likely to be held up under the

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same doctrine of a major questions doctrine, And so in

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a collateral way, this decision is bad news for the

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environmentalists and the climate cult.

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Speaker 2: Is there a minor questions doctrine? Imagine when it comes

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to when it comes to government and emergencies, Imagine everything

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is a major coe. So it the s and P.

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Five hundred of course leaped up after this, and everybody says, well, great, okay,

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this is back to the old order. But the old order,

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we're told, the globalist order of free trade and the

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rest of it has fallen under. Let's see a cloud,

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a dark cloud in the last year two years or so,

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as everybody looks around us says, wait a minute. What

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we were supposed to get to was a frictionless world,

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the end of history, everything being flat, everything being interesting.

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We get cheap, cheap stuff, there are standard of living

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goes up. A lot of people looked at that bargain

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and said, wait a minute, No, this didn't readown to

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our benefit. What we got was the hollowing out of

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American industry. We got barriers to immigration, drops so that

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society becomes diluted, et cetera, et cetera, all of the

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things about globalism that people don't like. Does this mean

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globalism is back on the menu, boys, as they would say,

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as the orcs might say, or have we moved beyond

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that to a case by case basis where we're still

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going to be protecting American industries and attempting to re

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shure as much as possible, because that's what interests me

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about this whole thing. I didn't like. I don't like tariffs.

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And part of the reason I don't like tariffs is

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because I was awake in junior high and learned that

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Smoot Hawley killed everything. I mean, we all have our narratives, right,

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Smooth Holly came along, tariffs went up. Things were bad,

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stock market was too frothy. Everyone was buying things on

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the margin, and then it crashed and the bankers jumped

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out of the window or sold apples on the corner

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or both. You know, if they had a stock pointing.

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That's what I So I've always had in the back

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of my head an aversion to tariffs, even though you

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know they paved the way for the budgets for decades.

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I mean, that's it's interesting to watch that movie about

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the assassination of Garfield and realize, you know, how much

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power the guys who ran the ports and did the

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tariffs had. I mean, there's an extraordinary money maker for

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them in the times. But anyway, so I don't like them.

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But the part that didn't bother me necessarily was the

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part that said we are going to look at critical

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supply chains. We're going to provide incentives for country, for

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companies to come back to the US and build I

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like that. Everyone says you're dreaming if you think they're

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going to make whirlpool washing machines in Columbus, Ohio anymore.

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Part of me says, but then let me dream, because

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they're while I pine sort of for aspects of the

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past that we may romanticize a little bit. There is

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something to be said for having a solid, productive industrial base.

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And then people quote the numbers that you actually with

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this are the industry we have Now everything's fire. We

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all know in our heart of arts that we'd be

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happy if iPhones were made here, if washing machines and

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microwaves were made here, if all the drugs were made here,

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if we didn't have to rely on China for everything.

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So that's my incoherent, romantic and unsubstantiated beef against Tariff's

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promo con which is why I'm not on the is

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why I'm not in the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, I mean, the big problem with trade going

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back decades is not so much to other countries have

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tariffs against this, straightforward tariffs of ten percent or something.

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It's that they employ a lot of non tariff trade barriers.

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They're called in other words, yes you can send American

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cars to Japan, but then they let out a bunch

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of conditions which make it expensive or impossible to do so.

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But because they're not formally a tariff, you could ensue

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at the International Trade Court or whatever it's called world

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the WTO it's called now okay. So as insofar as

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Trump wanted to use this whole exercise as a way

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to blast a part remaining trade barriers and also secure

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supply chains, like you'd say, I was all for it

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and willing to go along with it. And by the way,

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if we ever do make washing machines here in the

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country again, and I think we might, it will be

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made by human beings, will be made by robots. And

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that process is already very far along, right.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know that's that's the part that you

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realize that it would not be guys toiling away with

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a lunch bucket who would go home when the whistle

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blew that it would be made. Then we think, well,

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it's going to be made by robots. So we're going

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to need lots of programmers to design and build those things,

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and now out of the point where, well, actually we

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don't because AI can design and program those things. And

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you know, essentially what used to be one big, huge

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factory in the end of town with a smoke belching

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out of the stack and grimy men leaving at the

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end of the day to get into their DeSotos and

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go home to their small little house. The American dream

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actually turns out to be one guy in Miami who's

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sitting there filling a winner's laptop. So and what everybody

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else does for what everybody else does for a living,

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I'm not exactly sure.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, there's one last loose end about the case

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today that I'm sure some listeners will wonder about. Is

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what about the one hundred and fifty billion whatever the

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number is in tariff revenues the Trump is collected from

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which he was promising two thousand dollars checks to all

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of us. Do those have to be refunded? That question

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was not before the court today, and so they said

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nothing about that. And I think there may be some

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lawsuits filed saying from companies or somebody saying, hey, we

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was one of the costs of these terraffs. Now you

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owe the money back. Which will further further make our

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whole fiscal situation so much brighter, won't it?

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Speaker 2: Oh so much so? All right, let's turn our eyes

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elsewhere across the pond to Europe. Europe is in a

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parlous situation.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: Caught in a world in which its influence is shrinking.

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It has overestimated its soft power, It has made suicidal

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bargains when it comes to its energy policy, in its

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demographic makeup Western Europe, and it is becoming essentially sort

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of a theme park with nice old buildings and in

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half a little tight town, compacted town squares with winding,

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twisting little streets where you can get a good pay.

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Marco Rubio went there and laid down some markers and

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some truths. People are seeing it as a book. ND

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to the last year's fans speech packed the conference, the

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Munich Security Conference. You know, whenever you hear about Munich conferences,

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I tend to shift in my seat a little bit, right.

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But you know, he opened it talking with the origins

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about how the continent had been riven by the Cold War.

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And I remember those days as you do too. Barbed

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wire laid down in Berlin and the guard posts went

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up a nuclear proliferation Soviet Union on the March, And

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I mean you probably, like me, Steve grew up seeing

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the Eastern Bloc as just a fact of history that

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wasn't going to be dissolved anytime soon. It just it

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seemed it seemed set in concrete. But of course Soviet

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concrete was pretty cheap, and after a while it falls

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away and crumbles. Rubio said, united not just by what

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we were fighting against. We were united by what we

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were fighting for. And that's true. Underneath that, however, of course,

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was an anti American strain that was built both perhaps

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a little bit of resentment, but mostly by resurgent leftism,

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which regarded the United States as colonial and awful and

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you know, unfit to lead the world into its brave,

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new collective future. People are praising this speech as a

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re establishment of a commitment to a certain kind of

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way of looking at the world. Is it passe? Is

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it just simply return with a V and avatars on X,

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with the classical statuary and bygun nostalgia for a world

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that is simply no longer able to be put back together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I liked how you put up that it was

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a bookend from JD. Vance's very tough speech last year.

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I think you could call it good cop bad cop,

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because the substance of Rubio's speech tracked very closely with

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what Vance said, but the difference was in the rhetorical

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style of it. It was more reagan Esque. In fact,

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it reminded me a lot of Reagan's famous to me.

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You may remember too, his speech that he gave in

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London in nineteen eighty two about the meaning of the

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Cold War and why not only are our ideas better,

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but Marxism is a failure and we're going to transcend

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them and they're going to end up on the ash

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heap of history, heap of history, right. You know, Oh,

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it was a wonderful larcenary of old Marxist rhetoric. And

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I do remember the New York Times saying, oh, this

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is Cold War rhetoric from the fifties. Isn't this terrible?

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And that was you know, a year later it comes

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back with the Evil Empire speech. Right, that was sort

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of the JD events at Reagan. But look, the content was,

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I say, tracked pretty well but well received, partly because

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Rubio's stock is rising. Second, I do think I got

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standing ovation, they say, I did notice, like Reagan's speech

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in eighty two that the sainted Alexandria Ocasio Cortez complained

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that he was talking about Western civilization, and how terrible

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that is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he promoted those Let me read the quote,

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which our producer has kindly provided for me. It says,

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here we are part of one civilization, Western civilization. We

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are abou to one another by the deepest bonds that

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nations could share, forged by centuries of shared history, Christian faith, culture, heritage, language, ancestry,

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and the sacrifices our forefathers made together for the common

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civilization to which we have fallen. Heir. I mean, yeah,

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but a lot of people get angry about that. And oh,

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on the on the mind Cortes, I love the fact

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the last name is literally a Spaniard who came over

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and wiped out an indigenous empire. But I mean people

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have been nitpicking this apart and saying this is absolutely preposterous.

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Somebody living in Lithuania has has nothing to do whatsoever

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really with somebody living in Portugal, somebody in the Hebrides.

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What have they got to do with somebody living in Greece?

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And to me, it's a petty, even meritricious way of

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looking at it, because obviously there is something called Western sieve,

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and it's you know, the only time the left seems

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to acknowledge it is when it's sandwiched between the phrases

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haho and has to.

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Speaker 3: Go yeah yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's

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not even the subtext of the speech. But I think

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what's really going on here is Europe has lost confidence

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in itself and its heritage when they're not in fact

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hostile to it, right. And I think that's what's different

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from say forty to fifty years ago, when we were

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often frustrated with our European allies for being weak, for

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being two appeasement minded to the Soviet Union. But now

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it's worse. And I'll just give you one instance right

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now that's not getting a lot of attention in the

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American press. Is so, you know, when Reagan decided to

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bomb Libya nineteen eighty six, after they had bombed the

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disco in Berlin, our bombers took off. You may remember this, James,

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from an airfield that we run in Britain which we

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still have the base rights there, that had to fly

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around the straight of Zibalder because France said no, okay,

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leave that aside for the moment. But right now the

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British are denying us permission to use that base and

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also the Diego Garcia base and the Indian Ocean for

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any operations against Iran. At least that's what's being reported

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right now. And you know, this is an outrage, right,

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this is an exact and because look, the attitude of

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Europe toward Iran, especially England has been in full appeasement

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mode really since nineteen eighty, right, so this is very frustrating.

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And I'm sure, well Rubio is, you know, a kinder

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and gentler version of Vans in his speech. I hope

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and expect that behind the scenes he was giving him

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the business about this.

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Speaker 2: I hope so too. There's nothing I read out of

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England and their politics that makes it well, actually, there's

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quite a bit, because you have a group now, a

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new party, which is at full throated expressing what a

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lot of people have said needs to be done for

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Britain and whether it makes you know, it makes reform

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look like look frankly wet. But we can get to

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that in a minute right now, we're going to talk

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to Daniel Mahoney. Daniel J. Mahoney, Professor Emeritus at Assumption University,

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where he tried from eighty six until twenty twenty one,

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Senior Fellow with the Claremont Institute, Senior writer at Law

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and Liberty, and Executive editor of Perspectives on Political Science.

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Is twenty twenty two book The Statesman as Thinker Portraits

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of Greatness, Courage and Moderation received the Award for Conservative

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Book of the Year by ISI in twenty twenty three.

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In his latest book is The Persistence of the Ideological Lie,

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The Totalitarian Impulse Then and now fascinating topics. Let's get

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right to it, Daniel, welcome my pleasure. Well, so earlier

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this week you were a piece called discipline at a

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moment of power. And it's a critique, a measured critique

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of the administration from a and let's use your description.

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I believe a friend but not a flatterer of Donald Trump.

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All right, so let's just get right to it. Why

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does Trump have a duty to outgrow the worst of

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his excesses. Everyone always says, oh, it's the mean tweets,

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but it's it's it's more than that.

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Speaker 4: Look, whenever you proper this kind of advice toward Trump

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or the administration, a thousand voice rise in unison and say,

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but he won't change, it'll do no good. Look, we're

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obliged to point out these things, partly because some of

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this behavior affects self presentation are very self defeating, and

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partly for intellectual and moral hygiene. You can support this administration.

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It's brought goals many of the specifics of what it's done.

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You could acknowledge that Donald Trump has been the only

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person in the political class in recent years who's willing

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to face up to the crisis the country is facing,

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the sort of active subversion of our constitutional order, the

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moral foundations, and democracy. But you can also acknowledge that

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his modus operendi is a sometimes a self defeating mixed bag.

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And you know, I think the president really never learned

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that there's a veryubstantial difference between campaigning and governing. When

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you govern, I mean, even maga partisans want you to

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sometimes be presidential. And as I said at my piece,

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we owe in the language and the Declaration of Independence

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a decent respect to the opinions of mankind.

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Speaker 2: Before we go further some examples. Do you think of

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the self defeating behavior? Just we got some stuff on

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the table.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, I said, probably the most extreme and dramatic

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example I gave, and I gave it because dozens of

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people I knew who were generally supportive of this administration

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were very much taken back by it. The remarks about

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Rob Reiner and his wife when the son was killed,

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but the son killed them, and Trump's reaction was just unacceptable.

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It was narcissistic, it was brazen, it was petty, and

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the high minded thing to do would have also been

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the self interested thing to do. Just be magnanimous. We

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didn't agree on anything, but this is a human tragedy,

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absolutely lamentable, et cetera. And that small mindedness hurts, and

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there's no there's no use in pretending it doesn't. And

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I happen to be in Europe during the whole Greenland thing,

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and I saw something very ominous. I saw conservative and

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conservative populist thinkers very very were well disposed to trumpet

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it defended him, really react extremely negatively to what they

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perceived is bullying. And and you know when Stephen Miller says, look,

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how did the Dans get Greenland. Well, you know, three

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boats went there and all that. Well, does anyone get

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anywhere you got there by boats?

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: Evan Burke says, never looked too close below the initial,

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you know. And the fact is, you know, they sounded

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like settler colonialists, the Danes. So there are many Europeans

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who won uh one take some pleasure in uh in

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ticking off. But the Danes were reasonably friendly government, you know.

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And you could have handled this in a far less

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blastic way. I can give other examples, but by the way,

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this is a pro trum piece. I'm I am trying

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to say to the President the people around him, if

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you want to succeed, and we want you to succeed,

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you you can't double down on the things that undermine

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the larger course.

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Speaker 3: Well, Dan, by the way, great to see you. Listeners

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should know that you and I have known each other

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for a long time. I hate to say along.

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Speaker 4: Spid went back to nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's right. We were both interns in Washington.

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It was those glorious days, right I did. I'm not

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chose with you, but I I did get thrown out

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of the Hawk and dove once on Pennsylvania Avenue. There

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are you and I used to go there some for

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happy es.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I got through thrown out there once along with

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Martin Morris Moooster if you remember him, because we were

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eating too many of the free chicken wings.

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Speaker 4: I remember Mark Morris was he was a watch at

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a conservative statement. Oh that's right, yes, centric intellectual.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Yes. Well, anyway, back to the main

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point is you know you, you and I have talked

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a great length about you know, Churchill and de gaul

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and you know, gall could be a nasty piece of work. Also,

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I mean, maybe arguably lacks some magnanimity. But here's the

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point question I'm coming to. Maybe this is too broad,

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but I think that in the fullness of time, but

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I mean, you know, ten, twenty thirty years from now

439
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or longer, we're going to look back on Trump for

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some reasons. You already articulated in others as one of

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the most consequential and necessary presidents in our history. That's

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sort of my pre casting, but I think it's going

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to be in the future. But he does lack that magnanimity,

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except he does surprise sometimes, and so yeah, I was

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right with you. I thought the mistake about the Rob

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Reder tweet was most America is not on social media.

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We think everybody is, but they're not. And so most

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people didn't know about Reiner's, you know, derangement about Trump.

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And so this is called attention to the fact that

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Trump is a thin skin and and most Americans knew

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Rob Reiner is this beloved filmmaker. Right, So what a

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blunder because it could only hurt Trump. On the other hand,

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here two days ago, I wonder if he did this

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on purpose. He sends out a very effusive, true social

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post on Jesse Jackson. Right now, if there's anybody who

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has it, there's a dossier of I mean, we don't

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speak ill of the dead, except Trump usually does that

458
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very effusive posts about someone about whose dossier of bad

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deeds and effects in American politics is quite long and

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quite serious. Right. And did he do that just to

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mess with liberals heads? I don't know, but he can't

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do it once in a while.

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Speaker 4: So Trump is quite capable of being humorous and self

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deprecating and generous, and he has an act for making

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up with people he called terrible things. Think of Secretary

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of State Rubio no and I think a problem that

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the the officer class, you know, the guardians of democracy

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as it's been redefined. The mistake they make is they

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take everything Trump says literally. Half the time Trump is

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kidding around, or exaggerating, or or or pushing buttons. And

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I recognize all that, but but I do think one

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point I am at one point I emphasize on my piece,

473
00:25:42,319 --> 00:25:46,960
and I think this is no mean political consideration, is

474
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,599
that President Trump is exhausted.

475
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: And yes, I.

476
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 4: Have talked to untold number of people who voted for

477
00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:00,119
him two or three times who say this president to

478
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,160
see is exhausted. He's people need a bit of a break.

479
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,480
And but I do think acting presidential doesn't mean that

480
00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:15,920
Trump shouldn't be Trump. It doesn't mean he shouldn't take

481
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,680
on the the woke, censorious, neototalitarian left. It doesn't mean

482
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,839
there's a way of doing all of that and yet

483
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:37,319
just avoiding those those self inflicted wounds that give powerful

484
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,400
ammunition to his to the despising right.

485
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: I've been saying the same thing about Trump is that

486
00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:46,759
actually George Will was saying this in the first term.

487
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:49,039
Of course, George has really got a full blown case

488
00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:53,000
of TDS. Unfortunately, I think. But you know you're also.

489
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:56,079
Speaker 4: One from being a Burkie into a hyperlibertarian. Yeah, I know,

490
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,039
that's a good life crisis.

491
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. That does an interesting change, right. Yeah. Yeah,

492
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,000
we'll leave that for some other day. Where's that going?

493
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:10,039
Oh yeah, so you may remember this. Trump took a

494
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:14,359
weekend off here sometime last year, and again social media,

495
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,440
what nuts, where's Trump? It's been thirty six hours since

496
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,039
we've heard from it. Has he had a stroke because

497
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,519
he thought was he died? And Trump had a lot

498
00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:23,599
of fun with that the next day. But that's just

499
00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,759
his nature is to do, you know, fifty things before lunch.

500
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 4: Look, I think a lot of people on our side

501
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,799
have forgotten a fundamental truth about politics. And Monesque talked

502
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,279
about this in seventeen forty eight and the spirit of

503
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:41,200
the laws. When you win, immediately those people who with

504
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,359
your party, who voted for you, a certain number of

505
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,680
them are immediately going over to the other side because

506
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:53,680
everything you say and do creates a certain amount of discontent,

507
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,200
and that means public opinionshifts, and there's the waivers. The

508
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,920
most people are used to be partisans, but a small

509
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,799
number go over to the other side, and the other

510
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,599
side wins elections. So it means even as you're taking

511
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,200
on as both premp has done impressively, you take on

512
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:16,480
this censorious left, you take on the deep state, but

513
00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:19,359
you also have to keep in mind those ten or

514
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,119
fifteen percent of the voters who they may be annoying,

515
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:28,640
they may be uninformed, they may underestimate the crazy, you know,

516
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,599
the nasty character of the other side, but you have

517
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,559
to persuade them in some way. And persuasion isn't just

518
00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:39,079
through a series of rational arguments. It's just not giving

519
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:42,960
them reasons to go over the other side. So you know,

520
00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:49,319
in politics, it's always that judicious balance between doing what

521
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:57,079
you were elected to do and not offending, needlessly offending

522
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,039
people so that you give of. In this case, we're

523
00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:04,359
in a dark plays in our politics because we really

524
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:07,000
can't afford for the other side to win if we

525
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:12,759
keep the public, and that means there's a special responsibility

526
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,039
not to be in permanent campaign mode, but to persuade

527
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,359
that fickle part of the country. These these no one

528
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:25,759
annoys me more than independent voters who.

529
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,079
Speaker 3: Oh, oh, I'll go off on rants about how you

530
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,039
usually have the last presidential debate every four years is

531
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:35,960
with undecided voters in a town hall format, and it's

532
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,240
always a room full of morons, right, who could be

533
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:41,400
undecided three weeks out from a national election? And they

534
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,559
asked the dumbskie? Okay, we know that story.

535
00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:46,839
Speaker 4: George Will wrote a column and he said, do we

536
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,720
really want the fate of the Western world to those

537
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,880
who are listening to music in their car and driving

538
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,960
on November fifth and still deciding who they're going to

539
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,039
vote for? But it's just a fact of life, and

540
00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:05,279
and yeah, and also with the foreign policy stuff, a

541
00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:10,759
decent respect for opinions of mankind. I was very worried

542
00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:18,039
when I started seeing serious publicists, editorialists, others in Europe

543
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:23,839
who are pro national minded, very much opposed to the

544
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:27,319
despotism of the extreme center, as some of my European

545
00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:31,240
friends call it, who were really appolled saying Trump, you know,

546
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:37,599
does Trump really care about us? We got to recognize, well,

547
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:42,079
it's perfectly legitimate and necessary and welcome to be American patriots.

548
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:46,920
We need to encourage other national minded and patriotic people

549
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,160
and a big coalition, a kind of conservative international where

550
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,839
we say we're in this together against globalism. The erosion

551
00:30:56,119 --> 00:31:01,200
of national sovereignty, the replacement of you know, sound morals

552
00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:06,759
and common sense consensus with woke nonsense. And when they

553
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,319
these people start saying, you know, Trump's Trump just doesn't

554
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,000
like us, you know, he doesn't distinguish between you know,

555
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,319
good and bad Europeans, it's worrisome. And that's where I

556
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,839
think that Rubio's talk in Munich was perfect because he

557
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,480
didn't say anything wholly different from Vance, but he didn't

558
00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:28,079
he didn't exude contempt.

559
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:28,559
Speaker 3: Right.

560
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,039
Speaker 2: Well, when you say the opinion of mankind though, that's

561
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:32,759
one of those phrases, I'm not sure what you mean

562
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:34,279
by that. I mean, to me, it would seem to

563
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:38,640
be Europe and Canada perhaps, and some friendly nations in

564
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,599
Japan perhaps, you know, in Australia if they want to come.

565
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,640
But the opinion of mankind is self interested, and they're

566
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,319
self interest of course, is going to look at us

567
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:49,559
and say, you know, what do we get out of

568
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:49,880
this place?

569
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: Well, you left out a word I decent respect for

570
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,599
the ads in mankind, which means all that mean is

571
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,200
the factors didn't just for the out of seventy seventy six,

572
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,279
didn't just or seventeen seventy five. Didn't just revolt against

573
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,200
the Brits. They gave reasons to the world, candid facts,

574
00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:11,279
you know, they laid out the reasons for it in

575
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:16,039
a very and very civil, pugnacious but civil terms.

576
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: You know.

577
00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 4: I think that means he make a case, make a case.

578
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,920
It doesn't mean we should defer to what the editorialists

579
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,720
and Laguardian or Lamone said.

580
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: God forbid, I know I'm in agreement with so much

581
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,920
of what you're saying. I just want to come back

582
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,880
to the change and whether or not if it happens,

583
00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:39,279
what effect it would have. Is anybody persuadable at this point?

584
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:41,200
Now doesn't Europe as it ever matter. But it was

585
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,279
talking about the undecided, the people who hate I mean,

586
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,400
I don't think that anybody would have who hates Trump

587
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,119
would have hated him any less if he kept his

588
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,480
yap shot during the during the winer tragedy is it.

589
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:53,720
Can the needle be moved at this point?

590
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:56,359
Speaker 4: It has to be moved or we'll lose big. In

591
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,759
twenty six and twenty eight, Chris Caldewell had a column

592
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:03,799
and The Spectator World the Less Issues, saying Trump's losing

593
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,160
supports from his supporters. You know, some people in his

594
00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:17,720
coalition are turned off. And you know, I think Minneapolis,

595
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:21,440
of course, the press covered over the an teeth of

596
00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:25,440
militants and the nonsense and turned these two rabbl rousers

597
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,039
into martyrs and and but you know, the Tom Holman

598
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:36,480
approach of making distinctions. And you know, I think Trump listened,

599
00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:39,119
and I think we have an approach here that doesn't

600
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,359
make him the enemy, doesn't highlight you know, there is

601
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,920
a consensus in this country about sealing the border and

602
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:51,200
deporting the worst of the worst. It probably isn't a

603
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,799
consensus to kick out twenty to twenty five million people.

604
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:59,839
But the point is in Minneapolis, when Homan came in there,

605
00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:04,759
a troubled situation was righted pretty dark quickly. And I

606
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:07,680
do think it makes a difference, especially if Coldwell's right

607
00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:13,119
that a certain number of Trump's natural supporters are disillusioned

608
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,079
and tired. They have no illusions about the left, but

609
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:21,119
they're enthusiasm or Trump. Not a majority, not maybe even

610
00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:23,440
a significant private of enough and it's five or eight

611
00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:25,920
or ten percent. It's a game of change.

612
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: Dan, one more question about your article, and then I

613
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:33,239
actually want to introduce something beyond the scale for your

614
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,760
article and shift gears a bit. One of the things

615
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,320
I really liked about the article is you saying very

616
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,480
forcefully and clearly, look, all this talk of Trump being

617
00:34:41,559 --> 00:34:44,920
a dictator and authoritarian threat to democracy is all nonsense.

618
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,559
And you know, sometimes when people hear a criticism of

619
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:52,679
Trump like you've made, they'll default to saying, oh, you're

620
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,480
really a closet never Trump or something. So anyway, that

621
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,880
was a very valuable part of the people Trump.

622
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:04,079
Speaker 4: Three times right, and I wasn't exactly holding my nose like.

623
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that's right. But then the other thing is,

624
00:35:09,039 --> 00:35:12,119
I'm not quite sure I completely agree with you when

625
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:14,800
you brought up the old distinction time honored in American

626
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,880
political analysis between campaigning and governing. In other words, I

627
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,400
think that I think you'll understand my analysis and probably

628
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,239
agree with it, so so restate your arguments so that

629
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,199
I get it better. The sort of the structure of

630
00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:29,400
our government, with the administrative state, the deep state, what

631
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,679
everyone want to call it, the way the media operates,

632
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,360
the way the opposition operates, is no longer possible to

633
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:39,079
govern without being deeply political and being on the offense

634
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:41,639
all the time, and That's why I think you can't

635
00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:44,480
really separate those two realms anymore. Like you know, the

636
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,679
first president Bush said, I've in campaign mode and I'm

637
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:49,639
in governing mode. I think that distinction doesn't work anymore.

638
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I largely agree with that, But you know, there's

639
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,840
multiple ways of campaigning. I think it's good of Trump

640
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,519
to do these rallies. It energizes the base, she taught

641
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:03,039
the media and the lies of the political class. But

642
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:06,400
he can do other things, you know. And you know

643
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,599
he went to Higoway recently. He was supposed to talk

644
00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:10,800
about the economy, as I say, and the piece there's

645
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,880
such good news share with the American people seeing the border.

646
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,440
Everyone said it was undoable and it's being done, and

647
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,320
it's been done. But I do think you know, when

648
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,159
he went to Highway he was supposed to talk about

649
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:27,880
the economy, he immediately started praising his accomplishments and saying,

650
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,199
there's no real problem with the economy, and look, the

651
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,679
economic news is much more good that it's bad. But nonetheless,

652
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,000
if people see the prices of groceries going up and

653
00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:45,039
have formed a certain impression, probably fueled partly by propaganda

654
00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:47,199
and the media, you got to meet them a little

655
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:50,199
bit of the way, yeah, and all that, and so

656
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,880
these are these are not questions of really a radical

657
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,519
or fundamental reorientation. It's just you know, he says, well,

658
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:01,840
you know, up said, I'll be presidential when I have

659
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:02,119
to be.

660
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 3: Well, well we're waiting, Yeah, you have to be Yeah,

661
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:07,400
you know, and.

662
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:10,199
Speaker 4: You mentioned, Look, I've spent my whole life and as

663
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:12,519
you have, Steve, you know, talk you know, talking up

664
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:17,639
the nobility and dignity of high minded statesmanship. And I'm

665
00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:23,000
obliged to admit, you know, if Trump nodded every once

666
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,760
in a while in that direction, yeah, well it's in

667
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,760
his self interest. Occasionally he does, I.

668
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,559
Speaker 3: Know, well cheer up. Maybe long story and won't count now.

669
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:37,079
But I've talked to some people, some of the speech

670
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:39,320
writers and people in the Domestic Policy Council at the

671
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,639
White House, and you know, they have serious ideas about

672
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,519
July four coming up, and if Trump stays on message,

673
00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:47,840
I think it will be really good. So let's just

674
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,079
put a pin in that and hope right.

675
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,559
Speaker 4: I only talked about Trump briefly at the end of

676
00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:57,280
the Statesman as thinker, but I said, look, you can criticize,

677
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,320
you can criticize him, but I said, in the summer

678
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:04,960
of twenty twenty, when the political class revealed themselves to

679
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:12,280
be cowardly createns, if not insurrectionists, Trump spoke in defense

680
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,320
of the country. The talk, the speech he gave Mount

681
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:21,599
Rushmore was a tour de force of intelligent, spirited patriotism.

682
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:25,320
And I hope this is a twenty twenty six will

683
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,360
be a wonderful opportunity for Trump to play in the

684
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,960
higher ground. But in a way that makes clear what

685
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,400
he's defending, what we're defending. He's quite capable of doing it.

686
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:47,880
And it's just that I don't think we do this

687
00:38:48,119 --> 00:38:54,840
presidency any good by saying, well, he won't change, or

688
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,119
you know, the other side's terrible because in retrospect, eventually

689
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,800
people will admit all this when he's gone. You know,

690
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,159
you have to sometimes it's better to admit it. Well,

691
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:06,880
it's going.

692
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,519
Speaker 3: On, right, Well, what's the online of Churchill's was you

693
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:11,239
have to take the rough with the smooth, right. He

694
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,440
used to say that, exactly right.

695
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: Let's say that we live in an alternate dimension in

696
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,679
which rondas anss had won. Do you think we would

697
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,320
have gotten what we've gotten from the last oh, you

698
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,880
know year of Trump administration.

699
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,159
Speaker 4: You know, I mean, look, I don't know the answer

700
00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:33,239
to that. I think you would need Solomon's judgment, you know,

701
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:38,320
because Roder Sanders has done wonderful digson Florida, tough minded, determined,

702
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:44,039
pugnacious things. He was a terrible candidate, and I think

703
00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:49,280
he decided to he's stiffened up somehow. Whether he would

704
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:54,000
have he certainly hasn't had that bearing as governor. And

705
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,559
look a little bit. But I'm tempted to say Trump

706
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,519
Trump is one of a kind, and uh, he's he

707
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:08,400
is willing to take on what everyone says is untouchable.

708
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:09,519
Speaker 3: You know.

709
00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 4: He, as I say in the piece, he has he

710
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,840
is the only person in the political class who from

711
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:21,119
the get go had utter contempt for the secular religions

712
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:26,400
of climate change, gendary theology, the racialism and all that.

713
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,639
He feels it in his bones. By the way, I think,

714
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:31,639
I think the governor Florida is against all those things too.

715
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,320
But maybe Trump Trump where there have been the same

716
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,480
determined assault on the elite universities which have become bastions

717
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:45,559
of illiberalism, and intellectually, I don't know, but I think

718
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:48,199
just could have been a very good president, even yeah,

719
00:40:48,599 --> 00:40:50,760
even if he was a mediocre candidate.

720
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 3: Right, So Dan, let me uh the last question here,

721
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,760
last topic, and we can go on a long time

722
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,280
and don't have a long time, but it's already it's

723
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,519
over to Europe a bit because listener should know that

724
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,559
you have not just detailed expertise about European politics, but

725
00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:06,920
you're acquainted with, as I like to put it, all

726
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,360
the most sensible people in France, both of them. I'm

727
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,360
tempting to joke, right like you know, but also you

728
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,800
are I think I think i'd be so bold as

729
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,199
to say, and you'll disclaim it, but you're maybe the

730
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,440
leading or at least one of the three or four

731
00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:21,760
leading American scholars of social netson.

732
00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 4: I think that's fair to say.

733
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, good. I was afraid you're gonna accuse me

734
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,079
of hyperbole because I do that's true. Look, so I

735
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:32,360
don't know. I want to confine the question and we'll

736
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,000
be here all day. You know, you mentioned we've all

737
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:36,639
talked about rubio speech, how good it was, and I'm

738
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:39,440
thinking he was trying to, you know, grab Europe on

739
00:41:39,519 --> 00:41:42,679
lapels and say, have some confidence and respect for yourselves please.

740
00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:46,119
That's one way. But then there's France. You know, Trump

741
00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:49,159
maybe at forty percent or less. Mat Prone is down

742
00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:52,079
to what sixteen percent approval rating.

743
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,599
Speaker 4: I think it's even lower.

744
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,039
Speaker 3: Than Yeah, and I don't know.

745
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 4: Matt Crow was you know this conservative of a consertive

746
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,880
fellow got kidnapped and murdered and leonned by some Antifa

747
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,440
people who are linked to the left wing party Frances friends.

748
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,079
I'm about and Crow yelled at the Prime Minister Maloney

749
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:17,880
of Italy said, you have no right to speak about this. U.

750
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,199
Pierraman I recently said, look, if you talk about conservatives,

751
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,639
they're all in human and totalitarian people. Are Are you

752
00:42:26,679 --> 00:42:29,400
going to be surprised that they're killed? Yeah? No, macall

753
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:34,639
is very unpopular. He represents this technocratic ethos you heard

754
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,280
me say, the extreme. Soult and On calls it the

755
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,760
fanaticism of the center. These are the people from the

756
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,599
old mainstream parties, even the Christian Democrats in Germany who

757
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:49,320
are determined, determined to bury democrities to save it. And

758
00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:55,199
also McCall has that goalist hauteur without the greatness of

759
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,400
soul that the goal had. You know, you if you're

760
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,559
an honor of mediocrity. It log and technocrat. You can't

761
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:05,559
pretend you're Winston Churchill or Trills to goal. The Olympian

762
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,719
haughtiness looks ridiculous. By the way, Mertz is down in

763
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,480
at about twenty percent of the polls in Germany because wow,

764
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,280
he you know, do Germans keep unvoting him and the

765
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,679
social Democrats out and they form these coalitions to keep

766
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:24,519
the populace out And now they're following the Greens are

767
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:29,400
part of their alliance. They're following these suicideal ecological policies

768
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,920
and electricity bills like the northeast where I lived, my

769
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,039
electricity bill is twice what it was last January and

770
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,719
literally becoming a place that's unlivable. And the Germans are

771
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:47,800
mad as hell that, you know, green ideology is literally

772
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:53,360
undermining their way of life, their economic prosperity. Yes, Trump

773
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,280
is infinitely more popular. You may have seen inside or

774
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,719
advantage in another recent poll that came out, the ones

775
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,760
who were most accurate about the twenty twenty four election

776
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,760
have Trump closer to fifty forty two percent. So I'm

777
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,159
not sure Trump is in so much trouble. I think

778
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,079
reports of his death are much exaggerated to resurrect that

779
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:14,760
old saying.

780
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:15,639
Speaker 3: But but.

781
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,599
Speaker 4: He's got so much against him, has so many you know,

782
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,840
the media class, in intellectual class, no doubt some Republicans

783
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,440
who will come out of the woodwork when it's advantageous

784
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,960
that he he doesn't have as much room for maneuver.

785
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,199
So I'm sure there people call me a rhino. I'm

786
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:36,599
not a rhino. I'm not an You know, there's nobody

787
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:40,960
who considers Bill Crystal to be more of a lunatic

788
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:46,599
than me. Right now, he's now referring to Trump as

789
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,320
executing people at Minnesota.

790
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, he's lost his mind.

791
00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 4: I don't He's supported I'mdani.

792
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,639
Speaker 2: I know, well, Daniel, your latest book is the persistence

793
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,400
of the ideological lie that totalitair in impulse. Then and now.

794
00:45:01,679 --> 00:45:05,440
Last question, what's the difference, well.

795
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: Between then and now? Yes, Well, what's not a difference

796
00:45:10,679 --> 00:45:14,719
is the structure of the position. I argue that the

797
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,039
root of the evil goes back a century and a

798
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:21,719
half or two century, displacement of the age old distinction

799
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,400
between truthful so good evil, with this pernicious distinction between

800
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,679
progress and reaction. The guys who are on the side

801
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,559
of history and the people or are holding it back, and

802
00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:36,920
that that's what wokeness is now. In the case of

803
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,960
the French Revolution, in the case of twentieth century totalitarianism,

804
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:49,960
that orientation justified full scale totalitarianism, you know, assaulting the

805
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,480
bodies and souls of whole groups of human beings. The

806
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:56,920
woe haven't gotten there yet, because we still notice I

807
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,559
called my the book that sometimes I say the impulse.

808
00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:03,639
We don't live in a totalitarian state, although we came

809
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,960
closer to it in the summer of twenty twenty, but

810
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,480
the totalitarian impulse is alive and well, it's been institutionalized

811
00:46:11,119 --> 00:46:14,559
in many institutions like the universities, et cetera. And look,

812
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:18,599
Steve mentioned, I've spent a lot of my adult life,

813
00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:24,360
my scholarship writing about totalitarianism, about communism, And I said,

814
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,000
right from the get go in eighty nine, unless we

815
00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:32,280
pass on real lessons about the totalitarian episode, it will

816
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,880
reassert itself and reassert itself very quickly. You can't just

817
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,679
say we won, or it was a victory of the

818
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,280
market over planned economy. All that's some of it's true,

819
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,719
but it's superficial. You really have to know the lie.

820
00:46:47,039 --> 00:46:50,079
You have to know what it was. This was not

821
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,880
just a poor economic model. This was a war against

822
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,800
human nature and a war against the human spirit, and

823
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,599
a war against the roots of free government. And it's

824
00:47:02,639 --> 00:47:05,800
alive and well, I say in my piece, I don't

825
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,960
think there as many eighty twenty issues as people say

826
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,400
there are. There's a lot of people out there who

827
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,599
have bought into lunacy, and so we shouldn't. I mean,

828
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:19,599
I was asked to contribute to a symposium a week

829
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:22,880
after trump Onet is wokeness finished? How going to be

830
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,199
because of an election? You know, wokeness is deeply extantiated

831
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,039
in well, in the you know, the bmpulse on the

832
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,519
chattering classes. They're they're default position as woke. They're they're

833
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:42,039
they've stepped back a bit under pressure. But this is

834
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:46,360
a battle royale and and it's not just going to

835
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,679
be won by winning elections. We have to recover or

836
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,000
do our best to recover the institutions of civil society,

837
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,599
the churches, the universities, you know, the corporations which you

838
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:06,199
know became agents of a wokery and certainly in the

839
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:07,719
last generation.

840
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 2: What this country needs is another good, long march with

841
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,519
comfortable Chinese shoes, Daniel, thank you, Thank.

842
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,519
Speaker 4: You so much, guys. I really enjoyed it.

843
00:48:18,639 --> 00:48:21,199
Speaker 2: The persistence of the ideological lie that to tell Journey

844
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,239
Impulse Then and Now is his latest book. We thank

845
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:24,920
him so much for coming on board, and we'll talk

846
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,039
to you again down the road. By Daniel. So before

847
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:29,960
we go, a couple of things, I've got to mention

848
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:35,920
to you that Ricochet meetups happen. People actually get together

849
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:39,559
in real life IRL, as they say, and as I've

850
00:48:39,559 --> 00:48:41,719
found out that many of these things talk about anything

851
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,599
except politics. I'm only going to talk about politics at ricoghet, right.

852
00:48:44,639 --> 00:48:46,679
That's what you do, that's why you go there, That's

853
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,519
why you pay for it. What's that you haven't paid

854
00:48:49,559 --> 00:48:53,840
for it? He says, with a stern and knitted brow. Well,

855
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,280
you know, yeah, I know what it's like to get

856
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,119
people to pay for things on the internet, believe me.

857
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,440
But it's worth it because it's cheap and what it

858
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,440
gives you access to a community on the member side

859
00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:04,760
that you won't find anywhere else on the web. And

860
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,840
that's where you find conversations all over the map, from

861
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,519
old radio to new movies, to sports to politics. He

862
00:49:10,559 --> 00:49:13,360
has to culture to it's just it's a fantastic place,

863
00:49:13,679 --> 00:49:17,039
and if you pay that a little bit, you get

864
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:19,719
to comment, and that's what keeps the comment sections interesting

865
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,239
instead of being just absolute sispool. You know, free for

866
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,960
alls like you find elsewhere. So that is something you

867
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:30,719
want to do. And you'll find mentions of meetups, perhaps

868
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,559
in your area, and hey, if there isn't one in

869
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:34,840
your area, start one. That's a great thing about Ricochet.

870
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,880
People tell them to come and they'll show up and

871
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,039
they'll probably bring hot dish or something like that. Not

872
00:49:40,079 --> 00:49:42,639
at least in Minnesota had a couple of high profile

873
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,360
deaths we're having. You know, a whole generation is expiring,

874
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:50,880
it seems when you're of the age of Stephen and myself.

875
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:53,760
It's not unexpected, but it always hits you right there,

876
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,320
because wasn't this guy just thirty five forty years old

877
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,719
just a little while ago. No, that was in the eighties.

878
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:08,239
Jesse Jackson perished, died, and it a unique American figure

879
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,880
and I read an awful lot of eulogies, and people

880
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:17,440
who were not necessarily on his side in his corner

881
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:19,920
viewed him as something of an opportunist, but nevertheless would

882
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,079
attested the man's charisma and his ability to charm and

883
00:50:23,119 --> 00:50:25,400
the rest of it. And he did bring an interesting

884
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:31,239
brio to American politics and then seemingly vanished. Stephen your taking.

885
00:50:31,079 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 3: Yeah right, you put your finger on it at two observations. Yeah,

886
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,519
the charisma that you really don't see his successors like

887
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:43,159
Al Sharpton and so forth. I was a reporter at

888
00:50:43,199 --> 00:50:46,280
the Democratic Convention in nineteen eighty four, as a cup

889
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,400
reporter at a press pass and only convention I've ever

890
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,800
been to. I don't like big crowds like that. And

891
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,840
his speech, a keynote speech closed out the second night,

892
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,960
I guess, was absolutely electric, and I remember thinking wow,

893
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:01,079
and then I read the speech the next morning in

894
00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:03,760
the paper and it was not the same. In other words,

895
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,599
the orator was greater than the oratory, right, and that

896
00:51:06,679 --> 00:51:09,199
was always his problem. His substance was pretty bad, but boy,

897
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,280
he could light up a room. I do think that

898
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,840
some of the conservatives, maybe a National Review said nice

899
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,400
things about him this week, and I guess, you know,

900
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,440
don't speak ill of the dead. I think he looks better.

901
00:51:19,159 --> 00:51:20,840
Well put it this way, the cleanest shirt and a

902
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,519
lot of dirty laundry. His successors like Al Sharpton are

903
00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:26,920
so much worse human beings than he was, and that

904
00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:30,159
you know, Jackson had lots of loss personal and professional,

905
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:33,480
politically and so forth, but it's only gotten worse. And

906
00:51:33,559 --> 00:51:36,639
he kind of propelled us. I think he did mainstream

907
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,920
helped mainstream anti semitism on the left. The famous Heinee

908
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,280
town remark right, right.

909
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,119
Speaker 2: So came to my mind within ten seconds of hearing

910
00:51:45,159 --> 00:51:45,559
his death.

911
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 3: Frankly, yeah, exactly right. And then yeah, so I'm going

912
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,440
to go on about him, but I think that's enough.

913
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: Robert Duvall, Robert passing of Robert de Val is hard

914
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,719
because we're losing a certain kind of guy. It seems

915
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,199
a certain sort of I mean, it's ridiculous for me

916
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,760
to judge his acting skills. They were fantastic and it's obvious,

917
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,159
and there's I shouldn't get patted on the back or

918
00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:09,760
a gold star for saying what a range that man had.

919
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,000
It's a great actor. But there's a certain sort of

920
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:15,280
archetype that we seem to be shedding, and Devall was

921
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,239
one of them. A squareness, quietness, as centeredness, a sort

922
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,559
of American presence that you know, I was watching anatomy

923
00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:24,719
of a Murder the Other Night, which he is not in,

924
00:52:25,159 --> 00:52:27,840
and for the time, it was a startlingly modern movie

925
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,480
in the words that it used and the things that

926
00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:32,199
it discussed quite so frankly, but it's still in the period.

927
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,159
In the character of Jimmy Stewart, there's a there's an

928
00:52:35,159 --> 00:52:38,920
American quality to there that you recognize instantly when you

929
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,239
see it, and you gravitate towards it if you're of

930
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,760
my generation, because it's familiar. And I wonder sometimes if

931
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,039
it's hard to get young people involved and interested in

932
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:48,840
old movies, not just because they're black and white, but

933
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,559
because the culture, in the archetypes and the values that

934
00:52:51,599 --> 00:52:55,840
they seem to effortlessly inhabit seem alien and foreign and

935
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:56,920
probably wrong.

936
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think there's something to that, although I'll

937
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,159
just say that you now actually inspired me to think

938
00:53:07,159 --> 00:53:08,960
that maybe ought to show a Robert Duvall movie or

939
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,440
something to my students. I like to use movies in

940
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,880
class to illustrate the serious content of what I'm teaching,

941
00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:17,199
but also to sneak in some old culture, and one

942
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:19,239
that I use with great effect is The Man Who

943
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,440
Shot Liberty Balance, which in its political teaching, really is

944
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,960
about what are the conditions necessary for the rule of law?

945
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:28,239
And is Tom Donovan Aristotle's beast or a god? I mean,

946
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,480
I go through a bunch of classic political questions with

947
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:32,519
the and they like it. I mean, first is like,

948
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,960
this thing's slow, it's black and white, but you know,

949
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,119
I make them sit through it in a whole class period.

950
00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:40,079
And then we discussed it and it works pretty well.

951
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,119
And I think that Lonesome Dove is maybe the greatest

952
00:53:44,159 --> 00:53:46,920
mini series ever made. And he's what Augustus McCrae and

953
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:48,719
that I think he said that's his favorite role he

954
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,320
ever did his entire life. And that's kind of an

955
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,280
epic of the Old West without apology for stolen land

956
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,559
or any of the nonsense that preoccupies Hollywood and other

957
00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:02,000
woke folks today. So yeah, they don't make them like

958
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:02,639
him anymore.

959
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,199
Speaker 2: One I'll be sad to lose with somebody about who.

960
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,639
I'm watching a documentary recent in the last few days.

961
00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:10,000
It's on HBO. It's about Melbrooks. The ninety nine year

962
00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:12,719
old man is actually delightful, as is he. So to

963
00:54:13,119 --> 00:54:16,800
show you a class blazing saddles stee oh yeah, point

964
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,000
them to that and say that, well, the movie add

965
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,880
its slight controversial aspects to it. Take a look and

966
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,119
the spirit from what in which it has made, and

967
00:54:24,559 --> 00:54:27,639
try and tell yourself that these aren't the freest people

968
00:54:27,679 --> 00:54:30,360
you've ever seen in your life. Tell my daughter that

969
00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:33,800
the seventies were awful. Trust me, the seventies were awful.

970
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:37,360
But you know, you can imagine somebody in a convertible,

971
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,719
smoke and a cigarette without a seatbelt, driving down on

972
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,800
their way to see Blazing Saddles, and those are the

973
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,440
freest people that ever existed on the face of the earth.

974
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:45,880
Now they may have been killed in a crash and

975
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:47,320
they got lung cancer and the rest of it, and

976
00:54:47,519 --> 00:54:50,360
the sentiments of Blazing Saddles curdl does Meilbrooks try to

977
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,760
get lightning in a bottled subsequation doesn't matter. I mean

978
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,599
there's a brio, there's an openness, and there's there's a

979
00:54:56,679 --> 00:54:59,800
cheerfulness to these things that just you know, when you

980
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:03,719
in this tendentiously careful age is refreshing to see.

981
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,159
Speaker 3: So that'll be hard, yeah, I mean, if nothing else,

982
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,840
I always like to mention the scene where Melbrooks's governor

983
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,360
La Pedamain says, quick, we've got to do something to

984
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,000
save our phony belonging Jorge Job. No short thing was

985
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:17,559
ever said about our political class.

986
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 2: And at the time, at the time, none of us

987
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,559
could go on the internet and look up Petamain and

988
00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:24,480
figure out what it meant, what it was a reference

989
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:25,920
to that was the thing. You would have to go

990
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,840
to the You'd have to know it meant something. You'd

991
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,480
have to go to the library. You'd have to go

992
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:31,559
to the section of the card catalog that talked about

993
00:55:31,599 --> 00:55:34,599
French entertainers. You'd have to pull it out, page through

994
00:55:34,599 --> 00:55:37,280
the Dewey decimal notations, find it, go, get the book,

995
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,920
hope it wasn't in French. Pull it out, then say, oh,

996
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,800
mel Brooks is referencing a man who went on stage

997
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,679
and farted in a theatrical fashion. Brilliant. Now, of course

998
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,679
we have access to everything, and nothing means anything except,

999
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,360
of course this, and except of course the fact that

1000
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,280
if you give us five stars at the Apple podcast reviews,

1001
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,880
we will it will be in your debt in the

1002
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,760
most meaningless fashion for the rest of our lives. We

1003
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,480
hope that Charlie is with us again next week. He's

1004
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,440
at the funeral of our friend that we discussed last week.

1005
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,760
John acdaw and we thank you for listening. Everybody. I'm

1006
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,039
James Lenox Stephen. We'll see you all in the comments

1007
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,920
at Ricochet four point zero. Bye bye.

1008
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 3: Ricochet.

1009
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:20,159
Speaker 2: Join the conversation.