WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:15.919 You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome 2 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.719 to Why we do what we do. I am your 3 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.120 Analyzing Behavior Functions host Abraham. 4 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.679 And I'm your Rearranged Conditions host Shane. 5 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:28.879 We are a psychology podcast or talk about the things 6 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:33.399 that humans and non human animals do, and today we're 7 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.880 digging in hardcore to the behavior analysis side of things. So, 8 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:40.799 uh huh, what a treat for everybody? 9 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.159 Really really in the analysis part of it. 10 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:47.280 Yes, exactly, going deep, going deep on that. If you're 11 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:49.719 joining us for the first time, then welcome. I hope 12 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:51.920 that you enjoy what you hear in this discussion. And 13 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:55.679 you're probably maybe selected this because you are also a 14 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.159 behavior analyst and you saw the title and we're like, okay, 15 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.759 finally something I can get up with. And if not, 16 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:03.920 then I still hope you enjoy us in here. I 17 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:06.680 do try to specifically explain these things with little jargon 18 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.239 and a lot of explanations, so and when we do 19 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:11.599 introduce jargon, it's because we're going to use those terms 20 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.799 a lot and do try to define those so like, 21 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.799 this should be very accessible to anybody, and I actually 22 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:19.799 think we'll be very illustrative and eliminating even to people 23 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.519 who maybe came into the field and just kind of 24 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:23.959 learned what this thing was but don't necessarily know the 25 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.680 history behind it. There's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack. 26 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:28.719 So anyway, do you join us for the first time, 27 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:30.359 that's what you're in for. If you're a turning person, 28 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:32.400 then welcome back. I hope that you continue to enjoy 29 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:34.719 what we put out for you and that this feels 30 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.560 of a spirit in kind to I've described in Either way, 31 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:40.319 if you like to support us, then you can join 32 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.599 us on Patreon, leave us a rating and review, like subscribe, 33 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.920 tell a friend. I'll say more about the ways you 34 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:50.159 can support us at the end of this discussion. But 35 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.439 if you're joining us on the day that this publishes, 36 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:58.120 then Happy July twenty ninth. Witch is anniversary of the 37 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:00.000 Army Chaplain Corps. 38 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:04.200 Yeah sure, it's also Cheese Sacrifice Purchase Day. 39 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.439 I actually don't want to know what that is, so 40 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.680 that it can live in my mind as whatever I 41 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:12.199 am imagining it to be just probably not correct, but 42 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:13.319 I want it to stay that way. 43 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:15.120 Uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a nice it's a 44 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:16.879 nice mazzarell up on a cross. 45 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:22.319 You're not far off. I imagine here more Temple of 46 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.280 doom e. But yeah, International Tiger Day is also July 47 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:29.599 twenty ninth, Yes it is. 48 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.840 It's also international or I'm sorry, just national. That's National 49 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:33.759 Lasagna Day. 50 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:36.360 Oh I like me some lasagna. That's good, good stuff, 51 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.800 good stuff right there? National Lipstick Day. 52 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.479 Sure. Yes, it's rain Day, which is every day in Florida. 53 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:49.199 Yeah, seriously, And it is Hepatitis Awareness Week. It's raining 54 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:50.639 hepatitis hopefully. 55 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:53.479 No, that sounds like one of the weird plagues that 56 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:54.719 they didn't talk about in the Bible. 57 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:57.120 That's right. Yeah, that's a bad day. That's a bad day. 58 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.000 You don't want to be out in there. Yeah, nope, 59 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:02.439 probably find that in Florida too, possibly, Texas definitely, joy 60 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:09.199 all right, definitely Tennessee. I don't know. I'm just throwing 61 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:11.520 southern states under the bus right now, you know. Yeah, yeah, 62 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.479 places where there's a lot of jerrymandering that has resulted 63 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.400 in a crazy disproportioned amount of conservative representation in places 64 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.000 that do not have that many conservative voters. Because that's 65 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.759 how jerry mandering works. Maybe we need to do an 66 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:25.840 episode on jerrymandering that feels. 67 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:27.599 Right, Yeah, that's got to go somewhere. 68 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.639 It was like a thing that we would do. Anyway, 69 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:33.120 we're not talking about those holidays is for this discussion, 70 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.879 Nor are we talking about gerrymandering, despite how much time 71 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.560 we have already spent on both of those topics. No, No, Instead, 72 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:45.479 we're getting deep into the history, the science, the philosophy, 73 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.159 the inner workings, if he will, of applied behavior analysis, 74 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.400 and arguably one of the most fundamental purposes of behavior 75 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:56.919 science more broadly is to understand why certain forms of 76 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.400 behavior happen and what can be done to change those 77 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.560 behaviors when they are not serving the interest of the 78 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.879 behaving organism. And that's an inherent value that I think 79 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:12.199 sometimes gets missed. And what the behavior scientist does is 80 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:17.079 we change behavior because changing behavior helps improve and save lives. 81 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.439 At least that should be the circumstances. Now, there's a 82 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.439 lot to impact inside of that in terms of who's 83 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.759 choosing what improved means and under what circumstances does someone 84 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.519 make that choice, And that's not what we're getting into today. 85 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.800 And so if you do have thoughts on that, feel 86 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.519 free to let us know. But that's not where we're going, 87 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.519 So don't be distracted by the fact that I said it. 88 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:39.240 I just want to clarify that, Like, when we're doing 89 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:41.800 this thing, generally speaking, those of us who got into 90 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.959 this profession got into it to be a helping profession, 91 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.560 like we want to help people, And if you think 92 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.680 about all the various other helping professions, they also involve 93 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.120 changing and usually changing behavior and changing something about an organism. 94 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.000 See our Discussions of disability for more about like the 95 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.839 various models and philosophies about that. I feel like I've 96 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:02.920 dug myself a giant hole I'm trying to climb out of. 97 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.360 Point being, the fundamental purpose of behavior science is to 98 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:09.439 understand why behavior happens. Let me leave it at that. 99 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:12.040 Yeah, that's fine. This is going to be an episode 100 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.639 largely about apply behavior analysis, specifically the methods by which 101 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.839 we attempt to understand certain behavior forms or what we 102 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:21.839 call topographies, and more specifically the forms of behavior that 103 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.040 are thought of as problematic or identified as like maybe 104 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:26.920 having an impact on somebody's quality of life. 105 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.680 Yeah, they could maybe just be described as challenging. There 106 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.319 are some that are like directly violent and have harm 107 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:36.879 involved in them, So there's like there's those things to unpack. 108 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:38.920 We'll get into more of those as we get into 109 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:43.040 this discussion, but there is an assessment performed to understand 110 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.399 these challenging behaviors, and it is called a functional analysis, 111 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.519 very commonly abbreviated as FA. I am sure in this 112 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.120 discussion many times we're going to oscillate between calling it 113 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.240 an FA and a functional analysis. But know that when 114 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.079 we say FA, that's what we're talking about. Functional A 115 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.839 for analysis FA. And what is most certainly two or 116 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.079 more episodes. I'm actually kind of explicitly planning on this 117 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.720 to be three based on how much there is to 118 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.120 even talk about with this. We're going to unpack what 119 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:18.879 functional analyzes are. They're incredibly storied history and evolution, modern 120 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:23.800 approaches to functional analyzes and controversies around them. And eventually 121 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.720 we'll even get to our own hot takes about various 122 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.240 aspects of this topic, which I know you're all here, 123 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:31.959 like you're here for the hot takes. Let's be real, 124 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:32.519 of course. 125 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.560 Yeah, you like when we get spicy. 126 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.800 That's right, we get on our soapbox. We got things 127 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.800 to say. So that's what we're up to right now. 128 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.879 Is like, for those of you who have been with us, 129 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.480 who are like the behavior analysts among you. You've heard us 130 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.199 talking for a long time. We've hardly have we ever 131 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.560 gone this much in a single direction, but it kind 132 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:53.120 of has been one that's been on the list for 133 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:54.959 me for a long time of like, we do need 134 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:56.959 to get to this at some point, and the timing 135 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.519 felt right. We're here. Yeah, this is not like a 136 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:01.240 sweet like we've done on normal suites, but it is 137 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.000 going to be multipart. It's going to take a while 138 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.560 to unpack all of this discussion now. I feel like 139 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.079 I breathed through our preamble fairly quickly before we got 140 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:11.079 into this, and we already have now burned through our intro. 141 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.480 Is there anything that I missed or you'd like to 142 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.319 add or something that's important to help set this up 143 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:17.360 before we get into the meat of our topic here. 144 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:19.800 I think the big thing to understand here and we're 145 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:22.759 going to really unpack this is this is an assessment. Yes, 146 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.759 Like this is ultimately a discovery process, and like one 147 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:27.319 of my favorite things about assessment is that it is 148 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.800 a discovery process, which means that we're not when we 149 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.720 talk about this, we are not intervening right at this moment, 150 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.079 Like when we're doing this, it is a discovery. We 151 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:39.759 are gathering information so that we can better design interventions 152 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:42.360 for the folks that we're serving when we do these assessments. 153 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:44.040 So like I think, like just to kind of like 154 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:47.519 when we talk about this, we are in a discovery phase, 155 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:51.000 which means we have questions to ask in questions to 156 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.800 answer inside of this and that'll become more apparent as 157 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.959 we talk about the structure and the outcomes and stuff 158 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.360 with this assessment. But it is an assessment and that's 159 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:00.920 and I think that people tend to conflate assessment and 160 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.319 intervention sometimes, and that's we're not intervening, we are just discovering. 161 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.199 Now that being said, I think in the philosophy of this, 162 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.560 you can make the arguments that even as part of 163 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:16.959 the assessment process, it can have intervention like effects. That's 164 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:19.759 not your tension of it, but those things exist, and 165 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.240 we will get actually into that specifically when we get 166 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:25.040 to the later parts of this discussion, but we don't 167 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:26.639 need to go there today. The point of this is 168 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.040 that it was designed to be an assessment tool that 169 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.559 would then later inform intervention. That was that's sort of 170 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:37.000 the point. The purpose, the raison detra if you will. 171 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.000 That's where this thing sort of comes from. But we 172 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.840 actually need to even go back further in the history 173 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:47.320 of behavior analysis. The term functional analysis has been used 174 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:49.759 for a very long time, going back probably I think 175 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.559 over one hundred years from some of the dates that 176 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:56.279 I saw, and an early behavior analysis doing something that 177 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.559 was a functional analysis, calling what you were doing functional 178 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:07.559 analysis was a somewhat cerebral, maybe conceptual exercise in which 179 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.000 some behaviors or classes of behaviors or behavior topographies they 180 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:17.000 were described in terms of a variety of variables that 181 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:21.320 led to the evolution and development of those behaviors, as 182 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:26.360 well as the maintenance and continued evolution and development of 183 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.360 those behaviors. So, just to say that another way, people 184 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.399 would say they were doing a functional analysis, when what 185 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:36.440 they were kind of doing was like saying, let's conceptualize 186 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:40.039 these behaviors to try and understand where they come from, 187 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.840 where they're going, how they got to be the way 188 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:45.840 that they are, and they kind of just talked through it, 189 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:47.679 you know, they ad mused through it, they'd think on it, 190 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:50.039 and they had a lot of important things to say. 191 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.639 There's a sort of applying the principles, we understand about 192 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:58.519 how behavior works, to an observation of some kinds of behaviors, 193 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:02.480 often classes of behaviors, and say, let's understand how these 194 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:06.840 things work together. What's the function of them, if you will, 195 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:09.440 And so it was it was kind of this conceptual 196 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.720 thing when it was used back at these in these times. 197 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.080 Yeah. So, for instance, what a BF. Skinner's most important 198 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.759 and widely used books is Verbal Behavior, which he describes 199 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.840 as a functional analysis of language. Now, in it, he 200 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.919 proposes that language can be conceptualized as behaviors that occur 201 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:27.960 in certain context and have specific effects for the speaker, 202 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.279 as media by moment to moment motivations and interactions with 203 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.639 a social audience. So basically, like our language is shaped 204 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.120 by our context and like the audit who we're talking to, 205 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:40.279 and like what we need to say and all that stuff. Now, 206 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.320 units of language can be categorized by how they work 207 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.440 and probably worth a full discussion at some point in time. 208 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.240 But essentially what he's saying is like a functional analysis 209 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.159 of language, which is really interesting because he's not really 210 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.279 doing a functional analysis of language because it was an 211 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:56.279 interpretive analysis because you couldn't actually do the functional analysis 212 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:57.679 of the language at the time, because it didn't exist. 213 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:00.120 It's a whole thing. But more to the point, what 214 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.399 he's saying is he's analyzing the context and the variables 215 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:04.519 in which language occurs. 216 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.799 And yeah, you're you're right. And I think how we 217 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.759 use the term functional analysis today would make it a 218 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.759 little bit confusing to call what he did a functional analysis. 219 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:18.519 But at the time, again, because that term was more cerebral, 220 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.039 it was more conceptual, like for that time, a functional 221 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.519 analysis was an apt description for that exercise. Sure, but yes, 222 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.399 I think saying it, calling it an interpretation, I think 223 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.159 is perfectly legitimate, like that is equivalently, I guess if 224 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:33.759 you want to put it that way. Kind of what 225 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.559 he was up to in that discussion was like, let's yeah, 226 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:41.320 let's try and superimpose a philosophy over classes of language 227 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.360 and say, like, and when we see communication happening, we 228 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.919 can understand that through the behavioral principles that have been 229 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:54.320 described so far by behaviorism, and that that in and 230 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.039 of itself is a kind of functional analysis at the time. 231 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.320 And really, again, the point of this is not to 232 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:04.799 dig in on Skinner's verbal behavior, probably something to unpack 233 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.440 in the future. A very seminal thing that is hugely 234 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.200 impactful in the field of behavior analysis and behaviorism more broadly. 235 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:14.879 But the point is that, like that's what was sort 236 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.120 of described as functional analysis at the time. Now again, 237 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.519 the point really at this point was just that functional 238 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:25.279 analysis back in the earlier days of the philosophy of 239 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:30.639 this field looked more like pontificating about behavior environment relations 240 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.679 before the name functional analysis. The term was repurposed to 241 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.240 describe a specific assessment technique, which is what we'll get into, 242 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:42.120 Like we're headed that direction. But just the point being that, 243 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.320 like that's kind of what was really being said when 244 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:49.240 people use that phrase functional analysis before it became what 245 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:51.080 it became as an assessment. 246 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.200 Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like how people use 247 00:12:53.240 --> 00:13:03.879 the term evil before they call them ads. So we 248 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.759 are talking about the history of functional analysis and behavior 249 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.679 analysis in general and kind of where this came from. 250 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:10.720 Now we are going to go all the way back 251 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:12.759 in our way back machine, which I always thought was 252 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:15.279 a strange thing to call a time machine. I feel 253 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.440 like time machine is way more fun. Wayback machine sounds strange, 254 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.320 But maybe that's from so, you know, from that cartoon 255 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.440 show mister Peabody and Truman or whatever. But we're going 256 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:26.480 to go all the way back and we're going to 257 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.360 talk about behavior analysis before it was described as applied. Actually, 258 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.519 it was most commonly referred to as behavior modification, and 259 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.879 we did an episode about this forever ago. What we 260 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.879 understood is that you could gradually direct behavior to different 261 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.360 forms by providing or withholding positive reinforcers such as tokens, 262 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.120 special snacks, privileges, or social encouragements. 263 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.159 Strategically, yeah, that is to say that, like, if you 264 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.200 wanted to change what behaviors were happening, you could just 265 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:57.039 alter or specifically superimpose certain rewards as consequences for those behaviors, 266 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.759 outcomes for those behaviors, and that could sort of direct 267 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.440 the behavior where you wanted it to go. Now, we're 268 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.279 going to er out a little dirty laundry here, because 269 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.200 we're talking about the past and people did not get 270 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:09.480 a lot of things right back in the fifties. This 271 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.240 also included things like providing cigarettes that could be a 272 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.159 reinforcer that was like a reward that they could earn, 273 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:19.720 not something that would be done today. And it also 274 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:24.639 included things like providing or removing aversives they might do 275 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.399 things such as withholding privileges or taking privileges away. They 276 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:30.639 might even do things such as exposing them to foul 277 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.639 smells or things as far as even like electric shock 278 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.720 to humans. We've talked about this in previous episodes as well. 279 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.759 Go see those for a more in depth discussion about 280 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.559 what was going on there. Suffice to say, in these times, 281 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.679 what they ran into was there was something we wanted 282 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.480 to change about what someone was doing. We can either 283 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:55.039 provide some kind of punishments to decrease certain behaviors we 284 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.440 don't like, and or we can provide certain rewards to 285 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.080 try and increase certain behaviors that we like or that 286 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.240 we'd like to see more of. And that was essentially 287 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:04.879 what they could just do. They would just like apply 288 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.200 that thing as they saw fit, I guess in those circumstances. 289 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.759 Right, So, if there was some perceived reason to change 290 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.600 behavior patterns, and we say perceived because many people made 291 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:19.360 many decisions for people without consulting them or including them, Yep, 292 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.039 someone could orchestrate this. This's is behavior change through strategic 293 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.120 use of rewards and punishments. And you might think this 294 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:27.279 would not work that easily or that well, and you'd 295 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.039 be wrong. It's honestly surprising and even a little scary 296 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.799 how effectively this works, even among people for whom language 297 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.120 can effectively change behavior. So like, it's pretty astounding to 298 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:37.759 see this work. 299 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.519 Yeah, I mean you really. A lot of people are like, oh, 300 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.440 it's just simple rewards, Like you can't do that much 301 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.879 with that. I'm like, yeah, you actually can accomplish a lot, 302 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:51.519 even with people that you can just like tell them things. 303 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:57.159 When you specifically use outcomes, rewards and punishments in this way, 304 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.799 you'd be impressed. Like, how far I mean impressed. Again, 305 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.240 it's a little surprising in some cases, a little scary 306 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.799 how far you can actually drive behavior in ways that 307 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:11.200 might surprise you. So don't discount it because it feels simplistic. 308 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:16.399 It is remarkably effective and powerful. Right anyway, not that 309 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.759 we're trying. We've talked about this. We're moving on all right, 310 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:22.720 as we know, So we're talking about like a long time, 311 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.559 many many decades ago, nearly a center ago. Most often 312 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.480 this was applied to people who were institutionalized or otherwise 313 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:34.279 had some diagnosis that probably meant some significant impairment. These 314 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.679 are people who often had little language, often little education, 315 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.440 They might have lacked other self care skills, including and 316 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:43.840 up to the ability to clothe and feed themselves or 317 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.399 even use the restroom the toilet independently. There were wide 318 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.519 swaths of this, but those tended to be the populations 319 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.480 where you were likely to see this kind of work 320 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.120 being done as people who had disabilities. Often they might 321 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.919 have called these profound disabilities, and often it meant that 322 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.920 these were people again who just had repertoires such that 323 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.759 there was relatively little they could do at the time 324 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.279 with very much independence. And to be fair, like, we're 325 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.279 not granted very many opportunities to do anything with very 326 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.119 much independence. They were really not often even thought of 327 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:20.319 or treated as if they could have those things, and 328 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.279 loved ones weren't consulted, they weren't consulted themselves. Oftentimes it 329 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.119 was just kind of up to the doctor who made decisions, 330 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.039 and then they did the things according to what that 331 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:33.440 person decided, which sometimes was pretty terrible. So understand that 332 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.359 those that's where this is at. So that's kind of 333 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.680 the population with which you would tend to see this 334 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:39.359 applied right and. 335 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.039 At the time, and the absence of behaviorists, these folks 336 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.519 disabilities might be locked in a cell, medicated, quote unquote, 337 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.319 medicated with sedatives, lobotomized, are incarcerated. This is a well 338 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.880 documented in very recent history that I think is really 339 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:53.960 important to note. This is not three hundred and four 340 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.279 hundred year ago. I mean, this was happening, you know, 341 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.000 on some level many centuries ago, but this was happening 342 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:01.519 in the mid nineteen hundreds. 343 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.839 Yeah, it's like sixties, seven years ago, like sixties. 344 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:05.960 And so yeah, So I mean it's this is a 345 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.759 recent history. So despite what sounds disrespectful of people with 346 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.200 disabilities in the way that it was approached by behaviors 347 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.160 of the time, it was actually much better than what 348 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.079 those people usually got. And that's not to excuse it, 349 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.279 but I think the context is really worth understanding here 350 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:23.799 that like whenever we talk about history, it's always a 351 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.200 delicate situation because like these situations come up in like 352 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:29.519 we're in a situation now where we know better, so 353 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:33.440 we try to do better, and in fifty years that's 354 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.119 going to be the same concept that we have today. 355 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.720 Like we're trying to make it so that we don't 356 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.359 have these terrible histories going forward, but it's going to 357 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.960 happen as we learn more stuff. And I think when 358 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:45.640 we look back at the history that was going on, 359 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.119 you know, you had situations where families had no idea 360 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.279 what disabilities were, and they were imparting different harms, or 361 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.839 they didn't know how to care for their children or 362 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.519 the people that they loved, And so institutions were arguably 363 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.160 a better option for folks that could receive round the 364 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.720 clock care rather than families who couldn't provide that. But again, 365 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.240 that doesn't mean it was good. Yeah, yeah, it was 366 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:12.440 incrementally better than what was maybe available, but not good. 367 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.640 Yeah. Life for people with disabilities was very very hard 368 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:20.160 at this time, and they were often not treated with 369 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.000 very much dignity and respect. And so if you had 370 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:29.599 some kind of diagnosis that and these range widely widely 371 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.319 in terms of what they might be. But like, assuming 372 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:33.519 you had something let's just say profound like autism, like 373 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.200 you might have described back then, like essentially that meant 374 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.680 you'd probably be sent to an institution. And in many 375 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.519 of these you were given enough drugs that you barely 376 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:45.319 moved and stuck in a cell and you basically lived 377 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.880 out your days that way. Yeah, behaviorists came along and 378 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.119 they said, well, actually we can teach these people things 379 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:52.839 we can we can have them do other stuff. We 380 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.359 can teach some vocations, we can have them gain some independence, 381 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.920 and they would just be like, let's do em and 382 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.640 MS or or privileges. Cigarettes will We'll give them these 383 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.920 things as rewards to help teach them, give them feedback 384 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:07.599 on these new skills that they're learning, and they'll learn 385 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.000 them faster and be able to do this. So while 386 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.200 all of that sounds you're like looking at going none 387 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.640 of this is good. The situation where someone came in 388 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.200 and thought, maybe we can teach these people things, Maybe 389 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.519 we can get them to do stuff that require that 390 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:23.440 means that they don't have to wear mechanical restraints all day. 391 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:25.599 They're not like handcuffs, they don't have to stay in 392 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:27.119 a patent room all day, they don't have to be 393 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:30.359 on so many medications. Ultimately, it was probably in the 394 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.920 better interest of those people and is not still what 395 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.640 we would have done now knowing what we know. So 396 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:39.119 just trying to paint the broad context to make sure 397 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.359 it's really clear. As you were saying, like, I think 398 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.720 you said it really well, but I just wanted to 399 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.200 say it again of like understanding where things were at 400 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.200 at the time, and that you know, when they had 401 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:49.799