WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:09.400 Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:13.119 are you favorites, so like say subscribe and raid. 3 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.199 It, tip, stay and me. 4 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:24.879 Greatest con yesterday and listening watching always keep its watching. 5 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:31.679 And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay, Hey, Bobs, 6 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:32.359 what's happening Man? 7 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.479 Not much, Cliff, just excited for this guest. This is 8 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:37.600 the most part event for a while. Our members are 9 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:39.039 like really pumped up about it. 10 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:42.560 So yeah, all right, ladies and gentlemen, you don't want 11 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.399 to listen to Bobo and I any longer. Let's listen 12 00:00:44.439 --> 00:00:48.240 to our guests. Darby or cut He's returning to Bigfoot 13 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.159 and Beyond to give us some updates on the North 14 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.840 Carolina State University projects. And of course his title is 15 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.439 Director of Interdisciplinary Collaborations and Projects. Is that right or partnership? 16 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:02.759 Sorry parts, Darby. There has been a lot going on 17 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.239 behind the scenes. The Bigfoot community in general is clamoring 18 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:08.760 for some sort of update, and you've been promising for 19 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.159 months and months that when there are updates you will 20 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:12.959 come back on BigMan and Beyond. So thank you so 21 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:17.040 much for coming, Darby. How you doing men, I'm doing well, 22 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.000 and thank you so much for having me. I welcome 23 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:22.799 the opportunity to come back on the podcast because I 24 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.959 think I'll have such a reach to the community and 25 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.319 I'd like to update as many people as possible and 26 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.439 one go. So Darby, hell, let's let's in case there 27 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.519 are some new listeners or in case there's some people 28 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:37.959 out there who don't know what's going on, tell us 29 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:40.319 a little bit about the project, what you're trying to do, 30 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:42.040 and you know how long it's been going on, and 31 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:43.959 all that sort of stuff. Just a brief overview. 32 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:48.560 Yeah, So the project that you're referring to is actually 33 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:52.120 to give the first update is actually now one of 34 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.480 several projects that I have going effect an entire research 35 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:01.319 program now related to the Bigfoot or Sasquat phenomenon. But 36 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.319 the crown jewel of that, I think that from the 37 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:10.520 perspective of most people, is the DNA study. And it 38 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:13.120 was just over two years ago that I launched a call. 39 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.360 I think that's the last time I was on the 40 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.360 podcast was about two years ago, launched a call for 41 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:24.879 biological specimens that people think maybe or alleged to be 42 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:29.919 from Sasquatch, and my rationale for that, well, the long 43 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.000 rationale for that one is that I think this is 44 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:39.199 a very interesting phenomenon field that needs more scientific inquiry. 45 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:46.319 And these people have been finding these oftentimes very interesting samples, 46 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.719 mainly hair samples, but other types of biological samples for 47 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:57.520 essentially decades, and there have been very very few credible 48 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:02.719 scientific and academic analyses of these samples. 49 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:04.759 How long has this project been going on? Like, what 50 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:05.879 is it three years now? 51 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.840 It's been a little over two years since the project launched. 52 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.840 Of course, I spent several years before that getting things 53 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:18.199 in place for the project, and so we are at 54 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:22.680 this point. We are rolling along with things. What I 55 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.840 continue to learn is that the pace of science is slow. 56 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:31.560 I've tried to be optimistic about how fast we could 57 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.039 accomplish certain things, and it takes time. But I will 58 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.840 say that we are doing something that is really historic 59 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:43.680 with regard to this question. As I mentioned, there have 60 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:47.360 been only there have been only that I've been able 61 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:53.759 to find two formal academic studies, and together they published 62 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:59.400 results for I believe it's eleven samples from North America, 63 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:05.439 all of which were determined to be known species. So 64 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.039 there really hasn't been a lot of work done in 65 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.159 a formal way, and in fact, where we are now, 66 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:18.959 we've already been able to do genetic analysis on dozens 67 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.199 of samples, and we haven't published yet, but when we publish, 68 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.720 we will have increased the data set in this area 69 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:32.240 by many, many, many times what it has been previously. 70 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.920 Now, what makes your study different than all your predecessors, 71 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:40.720 besides that you're going to have more samples, and also 72 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.040 that you're actually going to do something with it instead 73 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.279 of like just because a lot of these previous studies 74 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:46.839 that people hear about in the big book meter are 75 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.160 essentially just just rumors, you know. So, but your study 76 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:52.959 is a little bit different, and I think has to 77 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.480 do with the backing of the university of some degree. 78 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.319 Well, it is a formal study, and that was something 79 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:03.720 that was really significant to me because I have found 80 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.959 that there have been a number of cases over the 81 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:13.879 years where individual faculty researchers at universities have become interested 82 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.439 in looking at samples, have taken samples and you looked 83 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:24.839 at them, never published results, never said exactly how they 84 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:30.600 analyzed the samples. In some cases those samples have been lost, misplaced. 85 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:33.800 They had the best intentions of looking at the samples, 86 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.439 but they sat in their office for years, if not decades. 87 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.560 In one case in particular, I was trying to help 88 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.720 one Bigfoot investigator see if he could recover his samples 89 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.000 after a faculty member at another university had taken them 90 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:55.480 and then unfortunately passed away. And so that was one 91 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.759 of the things that was really important to me because 92 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.439 I feel like this has been a this has been 93 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.600 a community in many ways that's been burned a lot 94 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:07.199 in the past, been burned by people who are say 95 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.319 that they're going to do a credible study and then 96 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:13.920 that's not what comes about, or who have taken samples 97 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:19.199 and not given people feedback on what the findings were. 98 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.319 And so I wanted to approach this in a very again, 99 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.240 a very formal way, and that means that you know, 100 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.480 even if I were to get hit by a bus tomorrow, 101 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:34.480 there would be a mechanism at the university to reach 102 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.360 out to the participants in the study, those who provided samples, 103 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:42.360 and let them know it had come of those return 104 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:45.120 the samples. This sort of thing. I did not want 105 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.439 to be another one of those people who didn't do it. 106 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:52.639 Absolutely buy the book and correctly and so, like I say, 107 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.839 it took quite a few years of planning and paperwork 108 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:00.319 and all of that before the call even launched, and 109 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.480 then I had to wait for samples to start coming in. 110 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.839 And then the important thing about this study is that 111 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.759 I am going to be with my collaborators looking at 112 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:16.920 these things very deeply. What's really important is to look 113 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.240 at these to the level that I can really say 114 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.439 at the end of it that we did our due diligence. 115 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.040 We truly investigated each and every one of these samples 116 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:31.439 to the point that we feel absolutely comfortable with reporting 117 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:36.519 this information. These are the findings. So it's a process 118 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:42.240 that unfortunately takes a long long time, but at the end, 119 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.279 everyone who's providing a sample will get those individual results 120 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.199 and can take those to the bank. 121 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.279 So so many studies that have come before have come 122 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.399 back unknown this or unknown that. So there's what I 123 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.079 hear is that that will not be an acceptable answer 124 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:01.839 from your study. 125 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.600 Well the other studies that have come back with those findings. 126 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.079 I think it's important to parse out what those findings 127 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:15.800 mean because in most cases unknown it can mean a 128 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.800 couple of different things, and it really doesn't mean what 129 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:24.519 most people hear when they hear that it was unknown. 130 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.480 When somebody, just a member of the public here is oh, 131 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.519 this sample it came back is unknown, they think, oh, wow, 132 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.399 this is an unknown species. This is something we don't 133 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:37.519 know what it is, And that really isn't the case. 134 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:43.759 That's the rumor. That's oftentimes what media productions, television shows 135 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.120 will lead you to believe, because hey, that sounds really 136 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:53.080 interesting and salacious and it gets viewers. But unknown really 137 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:58.000 means as a result, really means either we couldn't determine. 138 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.159 But the same really means we couldn't determine what the 139 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.559 sample is and we either couldn't determine it because the 140 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.960 sample itself was so degraded that we just couldn't get 141 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.799 that data out of it, or it means that we 142 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:20.480 didn't do deep enough testing to be able to differentiate that, 143 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:27.080 you know, what that is from other like species. And 144 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.840 I think that's really important because I've seen this happen. 145 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.519 I've seen this happen again again, for example, on television 146 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.360 shows where they will do a basic level of genetic testing, 147 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.679 a level of genetic testing that wouldn't be able to 148 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:46.399 tell you, for example, the difference between one primate and 149 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.399 another or between you know, and including humans. Okay, it 150 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.240 would just say well, okay, we know this is primate, 151 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.399 and then they they leave it at that, They go, wow, 152 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:01.240 it's primate and it's unknown, you know, like it's unknown 153 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:02.559 which primate it is. 154 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:06.080 Shouldn't the hair morphology be able to give you some 155 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:10.120 answers to that, just the structure like on a electron microscope. 156 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:16.039 Well, sometimes yes. But what's really significant about the hair 157 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:21.759 morphology is that the art of identifying animal hair is 158 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.200 something of a lost art now. There are not so 159 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:34.159 many people who do that anymore, especially for especially for 160 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.600 species North American species, And there's a lot that we 161 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.799 still don't know about the morphology of certain animal hair 162 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.480 because it can differ the morphology or the appearance of 163 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:48.960 the hair. The features of the hair can differ on 164 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.600 different parts of the body or depending on whether it's 165 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.559 part of an undercoat or an overcoat, and there are 166 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.840 so many various factors, many of which just haven't been documented. 167 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.600 And there really are very very few people who are 168 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:10.639 doing that work anymore because genetic testing has come so far, 169 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:17.159 so why would somebody invest the time in really trying 170 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:21.679 to figure out how to identify microscopically a hair when 171 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.039 they can run a quick and dirty genetic test and 172 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:30.480 in most cases determined pretty quickly the species. It's an 173 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.440 interesting situation. I've got a colleague at INC State, one 174 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:37.919 of whose students just in the last couple of years 175 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:42.600 discovered a new feature of lemur hair. And this was 176 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:48.279 an undergraduate who found something that science did not know, 177 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.919 and in part was able to do that because they 178 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.320 were about the only person in the world, maybe the 179 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.240 only person in the world that year, who is even 180 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.240 really looking at lehmar hair and it's morphology. And I 181 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.759 think that's one thing that is really significant to understand 182 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:11.200 is that science has a wonderful understanding of the world, 183 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:15.559 but it's an understanding that has gaps because there are 184 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.480 lots and lots of questions that we've never asked before. 185 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.360 And that's what comes back to my study is that 186 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:27.960 there are these questions that have never been asked before. 187 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.000 What are what are these things that people are finding, 188 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.799 these these hairs, these other biological samples that people are 189 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.759 finding that for them correlate with what they think maybe 190 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:47.919 bigfoot or sasquatch encounters or other evidence, or or these 191 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:53.639 hairs that may be morphologically unusual that we can't readily identify. 192 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.440 And so this is what's really important, is looking at 193 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.879 these things, because the scientific tools are wonderful way of 194 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.879 understanding our world, but they can only help us understand 195 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:09.039 to the extent that we use them to ask questions. 196 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.279 And of course, asking questions is basically one of the 197 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.559 first steps of the scientific process. And a lot of people, 198 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.919 it seems to me, have this idea of what science is, 199 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.200 and they think incorrectly that science is kind of just 200 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.279 a body of knowledge that, you know, the White Tower, 201 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:30.080 you know, academics guard and keep themselves. Well. No, no, 202 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.120 the sciences. I say this often that science really should 203 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.600 be a verb of some sort. I'm going to science 204 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.399 that and figure it out, you know, because science is 205 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:42.480 a process about asking questions and making a guess and 206 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.600 seeing if you can gather information that supports your guests, 207 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.320 you know, and if it doesn't, then you change your guess, 208 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:49.399 like what what's going on here? 209 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.960 No, And that's what I try to get across to 210 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:57.159 my students is that science begins with curiosity, wondering about 211 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.000 something and then trying trying to understand it. And I 212 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:06.720 think that's that's where I think the question of questions 213 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:11.759 around Bigfoot or Sasquatch phenomenon are people ask me all 214 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.600 the time, you know, why why don't scientists take this 215 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.720 more seriously? And why are there not more people doing 216 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.120 these studies? And I think really a lot of that 217 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.519 has to do with the fact of where, you know, 218 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.440 where Bigfoot kind of sits culturally for us. I mean, 219 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.879 you ask most people in this country about that, and 220 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.720 they think that it's a joke. I do also think 221 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:39.399 that in media and and in social media, we find 222 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.519 that nearly all of the folks who are engaged with 223 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:49.639 Bigfoot or Sasquatch already have more or less made up 224 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:54.279 their minds about the answers to potential questions. And I 225 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:59.919 think that that that dynamic, it's represented through this very buying, 226 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:05.480 very understanding of you know, Bigfoot believers versus Bigfoot skeptics, right, 227 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:11.000 and these are really ways of talking about two groups 228 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:15.000 that have already made up their minds about about the evidence. 229 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:20.399 Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. 230 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:28.480 Will be right back after these messages. 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See website for full details, 263 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.119 restrictions and important safety information. 264 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.279 Well, Darby, your project's been going on for a number 265 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.359 of years now. I don't know, I know that sometimes 266 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.880 you actually do put an ear on this podcast and listen. 267 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.799 And you've heard me say before that this is going 268 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:28.119 to take some time. Give Darby some space. And I 269 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:32.720 also have been commenting about how extraordinarily cautious and conservative 270 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.759 you have been with this study so far, which is fantastic. 271 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.160 We don't need zelots out there, like use car salesmen 272 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.920 shilling their stuff here. And since this particular subject, the 273 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:48.519 sasquatch subject, has been a target of ridicule and hoaxes 274 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:53.599 and all sorts of you know, snake oil salesmen for decades. 275 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.240 We need something like this, right, like some a conservative 276 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.640 of sober perspective looking at this mystery. What can you 277 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:06.160 tell us about your study? Because I know there's a 278 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.759 lot you can't say. I guess it's me really the 279 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.400 long way around to saying that there's a lot you 280 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:15.000 cannot say because you are being appropriately conservative with this study. 281 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.160 What can you tell us about what's been going on? Though? 282 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:19.079 What can we know? 283 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:25.039 It's interesting for me because I do recognize that there 284 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.160 have been a lot of people who've been waiting for 285 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.920 projects such as this. I've had people offering samples to 286 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.799 me who literally found them twenty plus years ago and 287 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:41.839 haven't trusted sending them to anyone previously, haven't had somewhere 288 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.880 to send them, or haven't trusted you know, those who've 289 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.319 asked who said they're going to look at them. And 290 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.839 I take that as a huge compliment that those people 291 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:57.079 trust me enough just to send them to me, and 292 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:01.240 I take that trust very seriously. That's part of this 293 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.680 is that I want to make sure that the results 294 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:10.279 that I deliver our rock solid, that they are a 295 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:15.920 true understanding of what this potential evidence is. So that's 296 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.720 one thing I think I've also come to realize that, 297 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:25.119 you know, people are impatient, and people's understanding of a 298 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:29.160 lot of their understanding of the science comes from television shows. 299 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.039 And I'm not talking about the paranormal shows or the 300 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:36.160 Bigfoot shows or what have you. I'm talking about things 301 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:41.119 as simple as like CSI, where we're used to seeing, Oh, okay, 302 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.599 here this DNA was this DNA was found scene of 303 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.839 a crime, and within less than an hour, we have results. 304 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.240 We've got the you know, they spit out the home 305 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.319 address of the perpetrator and there we go, and it's 306 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:59.279 quite easily done, right, And it doesn't work that way 307 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.799 in the real world, and especially doesn't work that way 308 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:06.039 in the real world when it comes to a research 309 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.559 project where you're dealing with potential unknowns. I think people 310 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.839 see also in the news, they see a lot of 311 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:19.200 amazing things, almost magical seeming things that folks are able 312 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.680 to do with DNA in terms of identifying suspects and 313 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.480 finding trace evidence at crime scenes and things like that. 314 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:31.400 And people think, well, way, if it's if they're doing 315 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:36.400 these amazing things, then why can't we be applying that 316 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:42.960 with it to the big photo sasquatch question? And the 317 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.960 answer to that really comes on what's hidden, what's really 318 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:53.640 obfuscated in the media about how genetic analysis works, and 319 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.359 that is is that so much of our understanding of 320 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.759 it is based on the data sets that we have. 321 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.559 So for example, when you're talking about identifying a human 322 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:10.160 a particular human, or a human particular family, or humans 323 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:12.799 particular regions of the world, or whatever it may be, 324 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:19.880 you have to understand that we have so much data, 325 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:27.160 We have so many human sequences, medical research and all 326 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.799 all all that there has been so much work done 327 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:37.000 on analyzing human genetics, for example, that we can do 328 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.079 a whole lot more with that, right, Whereas when you 329 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.240 start to work even with even with known species, there's 330 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.559 a whole lot less that we know, for example, even 331 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.880 about bears. So if you if you if you want 332 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.519 to find out about bear populations and things like that, 333 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.960 there's there's a whole lot less data to work with. Well, 334 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.400 take that to a potential unknown species where you have 335 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.119 essentially no data to work with, and it's a it's 336 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:10.480 a completely different undertaking. And so that's that's part of it, 337 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:16.640 is that the bioinformatics problem is not a small one. 338 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:22.119 The bioinformatics basically refers to how you do data analysis 339 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:27.039 on DNA sequences in order to glean information from them. 340 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:29.279 That's huge, right there. 341 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.160 It's a large obstacle, but it's not insurmountable. So what 342 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:38.279 does one do faced with such an obstacle. It's not insurmountable, 343 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.559 absolutely not, but it just means that it takes a 344 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.000 lot more time, It takes a lot more cautious analysis, 345 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:49.720 and it takes you know, these samples are requiring a 346 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:54.400 some of them, a much deeper level of sequencing than 347 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.680 they might if we had a large DA you know, 348 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.079 if they fit that what is already in our database. 349 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.319 And so I guess the best example of this is 350 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:11.279 if we were if we were looking for a known 351 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:17.039 species in a place where that species is not known 352 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.960 to be. And I've actually got a project now doing that, 353 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:26.000 collaborative project doing that with regard to mountain lions or cougars. 354 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:28.480 And we can talk more about that another time if 355 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.559 you're interested. But we're looking to see there are a 356 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.720 lot of reports of these in a place where they 357 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.839 shouldn't be, and we're looking to see, you know, are 358 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.599 they in this place where they shouldn't be. That's such 359 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.839 an easy question when it comes to it, because you 360 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.799 can analyze the data and we know exactly what sequences 361 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.640 to look for to find a known species, even in 362 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.400 a place where it shouldn't be when we're looking for 363 00:23:54.440 --> 00:24:01.319 a potential unknown species, that is an infinitely work upplicated question. Again, 364 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:05.599 not an insurmountable one, because all species on the planet 365 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:10.359 are related, but it's a much, much, much bigger proposition. 366 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.799 But yet here we are two plus years into the 367 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.799 study and you're still doing it. That that, at least 368 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.960 to me, implies that there's some promising results that have 369 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.160 not gotten to the bottom. You haven't got to the 370 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.519 bottom of yet, So there's enough here that keeps you going. 371 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:29.799 Well, there's enough here that keeps me going, both in 372 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.519 terms of there are a number of samples that have 373 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.759 come in that we haven't been able to get to 374 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:41.599 yet for various reasons. There are still a few samples 375 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.799 that are being found that are trickling in on a 376 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:50.680 somewhat regular basis and most exciting. And I again, you 377 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.799 know me, I will be very conservative in the way 378 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.880 that I put this, But what I'm finding is that 379 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.839 I'm finding samples. I have found samples that are still 380 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:08.759 interesting to me after several levels of analysis. And let 381 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.079 me put this in perspective. I did listen to your 382 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.720 DNA episode that you did a month or so ago, 383 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.480 and I thought y'all did a pretty good job with that. 384 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.079 I did here. I did hear my metaphor reflected in 385 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.960 your discussion there of thinking about thinking about DNA sequencing 386 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:31.799 as the different levels of resolution of say a photograph. Okay, 387 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.519 And I think that's a great way to think about it. 388 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.839 Just that you start out and you're you're looking at 389 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.960 something and you say, okay, here is maybe a highly 390 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.440 pixelated image. 391 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:42.920 Right. 392 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.519 Well, sometimes you can look at even a highly pixelated image, 393 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.960 you could tell what it's a picture of. He might 394 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.359 not have to do anything more than just look at it. Now. 395 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:54.359 Sometimes you might have to say, okay, now, if I 396 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.839 really want to look at this image better, maybe I 397 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.440 get out a magnifying glass, and now I look with 398 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.160 a magnifying glass, I blow it up, and I look 399 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.039 more carefully, and now maybe I can identify what's in 400 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.640 the picture. Okay. Great. And so you have these level 401 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:16.319