Speaker 1: Special Operations, cobert Os Spionage. The Team House with your
Speaker 1: hosts Jack.
Speaker 2: Murphy and David Bark.
Speaker 1: Welcome to episode three hundred and seventy three of The
Speaker 1: Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with tonight's guests, former
Speaker 1: Canadian sniper Barry Nisbitt and former ranger and co author
Speaker 1: of the book Mir Bamanyar. They are the author of
Speaker 1: Send It Canadian Snipers at War in Afghanistan. Thank you
Speaker 1: both of you, gentlemen, for joining us tonight.
Speaker 2: You're welcome. Thanks for having us Jack.
Speaker 1: So maybe we just like kick it off. I mean
Speaker 1: this is a little unorthodox, but talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about how this project came together. How did Mir and
Speaker 1: Barry meet each other?
Speaker 3: All right, I'll take this one Barry, because you know
Speaker 3: we can't trust you.
Speaker 2: You're old.
Speaker 3: Look this sort of started in twenty ten. I'd written
Speaker 3: a seal book with Chris Osmond. I wanted to do
Speaker 3: something on snipers and Chris said, there's this great guy
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan he met called Gordon Cullen, who is instrumental
Speaker 3: and also writing this book. And through Gordon I met Barry.
Speaker 3: And that's a long time ago. I think we met
Speaker 3: ten years ago or something like that, and I went
Speaker 3: and interviewed Berry, and you know, on and off, it's
Speaker 3: taken me a long time to finally get to the book.
Speaker 3: And I was going to write this whole thing about
Speaker 3: Canadian snipers because I now live in Canada and I
Speaker 3: thought there were some stories that needed to be told
Speaker 3: that we haven't heard yet. And to that end, I
Speaker 3: got permission from the Green Machine of Canada's forces that
Speaker 3: I could participate in two weeks at a sniper call
Speaker 3: it boot camp whatever, training course with the RCR, which
Speaker 3: the Royal Canadian Regiment. So I spent two weeks with
Speaker 3: those guys and I interviewed some of them, and I
Speaker 3: was going to write the book, but I recognized almost
Speaker 3: immediately that I'm just an idiot. There's no way I
Speaker 3: could write a book about something like sniping. It was
Speaker 3: really just so complex, at least to me it was.
Speaker 3: So I asked Gordon if he'd be interested in helping
Speaker 3: me on that, and he also introduced me to Berry
Speaker 3: at the time. So I met with Berry a bunch
Speaker 3: of times, went to his house and looked at a
Speaker 3: lot of things. We talked a lot. He showed me
Speaker 3: a lot of the video footage, and eventually I just
Speaker 3: made the decision. I don't even remember how long ago
Speaker 3: that was, but a few years back, I said, you know,
Speaker 3: do you guys want to just write this book and
Speaker 3: I'll write one or two chapters, but it's really your story.
Speaker 2: You guys should write it.
Speaker 4: And do justice to what took you, you know, to
Speaker 4: how to actually get to the point where you became
Speaker 4: combat efficient and very good at your job at you know,
Speaker 4: snipers school and all the other experiences they had.
Speaker 2: For me.
Speaker 3: They sa and we reached out to a number of
Speaker 3: others uh snipers. Many of them were excited at the beginning,
Speaker 3: but not participating. Barry and another guy, a couple other
Speaker 3: guys chap So that's how I met Barry through this
Speaker 3: process and we've become good friends.
Speaker 1: You know, something I wanted to mention too from the
Speaker 1: onset is that, and I'm dating myself a little bit here,
Speaker 1: but when I went through Snipers School many years ago,
Speaker 1: all the instructors all told us how great the Canadian
Speaker 1: snipers are, like I'm not blowing smoke, like and I
Speaker 1: heard that throughout my career in the army. People speak
Speaker 1: very highly about the Canadian snipers. And Barry, I was
Speaker 1: wondering if you could tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: you know, why do you think the Canadian snipers are
Speaker 1: so well regarded and what is it about the Canadian
Speaker 1: military that has led them to create this program that
Speaker 1: seems to work very well for.
Speaker 2: Them, Jack, I think it's it's a combination of a
Speaker 2: lot of things. We're a small military, so we do
Speaker 2: a lot of cross training and we have a really
Speaker 2: good base of infantry skills before we even even think
Speaker 2: about getting onto a sniper course. You know, I was
Speaker 2: you know, nine eight years in the military before I
Speaker 2: even got an opportunity to go on the course. And
Speaker 2: you know, at that point, you know, I was a
Speaker 2: machine guarner, morteman, reconnaissance patrolman. So we just have a
Speaker 2: really solid base of basic gift before we can even
Speaker 2: be looked at to go onto a basic sniper course.
Speaker 1: Let's dig a little bit deeper, Barrier, tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about your origin story, about how you joined
Speaker 1: the military and why how did all of that come
Speaker 1: about for you, Well.
Speaker 2: How it came about for me. Yeah, I was I
Speaker 2: was twenty, didn't really have a direction and my mom
Speaker 2: said to me, why don't you join the military, and
Speaker 2: I thought, why don't I join the military. So I
Speaker 2: went to recruiting office. I watched some videos. I saw
Speaker 2: the guys running around with guns, jumping out of airplanes,
Speaker 2: and I said, well, that that's that's what I want
Speaker 2: to do. And you know, I signed up for the
Speaker 2: infantry and I was told it would be you know,
Speaker 2: months until I heard anything. Three weeks later, I got
Speaker 2: a phone call from a recruiting sergeant that that called
Speaker 2: me very early in the morning and said, I hope
Speaker 2: you like getting up early. You're you're in basic training
Speaker 2: in three weeks and off off I went.
Speaker 1: And was it you Barry or was it your uh,
Speaker 1: your buddy Gordon. Well, because I remember it's in the
Speaker 1: book somewhere one of you is color blind. Yeah, oh
Speaker 1: that's Gordon.
Speaker 5: OK.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Gord kind of god, kind of tucked under
Speaker 2: the radar. Is some requirements, but we're all very glad,
Speaker 2: very glad he did just because you know, exceptional soldier,
Speaker 2: exceptional sniper and instruct.
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Speaker 1: off is house h O U s E. Thanks guys, Erry,
Speaker 1: If you could just tell us then about uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you joined the military. Tell us about sort of your
Speaker 1: early military career. You had a series of infantry positions.
Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, absolutely, I I was always I've
Speaker 2: always been in the first Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment in Patawawa, Ontario.
Speaker 2: I'll say my first deployment was to h was the
Speaker 2: was it would have been to Kosovo, in nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 2: I would have been in a in a section or
Speaker 2: I guess a squad, and I was just a I
Speaker 2: was to riflemen. So that was sort of my first
Speaker 2: first apployment peacekeeping mission into Kosovo, and then you know,
Speaker 2: just kind of up through the ranks, you know, you
Speaker 2: get a little bit of leadership training. Next deployment was
Speaker 2: into Bosnia, where I was a what we would call
Speaker 2: Section two. I see, I guess what would that be
Speaker 2: like in a squad.
Speaker 1: Assistant team leader maybe, yeah.
Speaker 3: Assistant team leader leader, assistant squad leader maybe yeah.
Speaker 2: Again, you know, just like another peacekeeping tour. And then
Speaker 2: a few years later, two thousand and five, I was
Speaker 2: in Kabul, Afghanistan. We were what we were doing there
Speaker 2: was we were doing defense security of a camp and QRF.
Speaker 2: So again I was doing you know, Section two. I
Speaker 2: see on that, and you know, then that kind of
Speaker 2: brought me you know that I guess say, you know,
Speaker 2: you cut your teeth a bit on those tours. You
Speaker 2: get a taste, you get exposed to other countries and
Speaker 2: other units, and you know, you kind of start to
Speaker 2: see that there's a there's a lot more in the
Speaker 2: military to do. And and that's when I sort of
Speaker 2: you know, well, at that point my first turn Afghanista,
Speaker 2: I'd already been to ranger school. I went to ranger
Speaker 2: school in two thousand and three and just progressed, you know,
Speaker 2: sniper course, oh five, lucky to be in the sniper platoon.
Speaker 2: Deployed to Afghanistan in O six and that was pretty interesting,
Speaker 2: pretty interesting tour, kind of first taste of combat, progressed
Speaker 2: through uh into sniper detachment commander course, Advanced sniper course,
Speaker 2: and then final tour was as a sniper detachment commander
Speaker 2: in twenty ten back in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: So talk to us a little bit about how the
Speaker 1: kind of the course works, the training. It sounds like
Speaker 1: there's a you mentioned a basic course and an advanced course,
Speaker 1: and how does the how does Canadian sniper training structured?
Speaker 2: So first to even get onto this, onto the basic
Speaker 2: sniper course, I guess it's basically structured in three phases.
Speaker 2: You have your basic, you have your sniper detachment commander,
Speaker 2: and then your your Advanced sniper which would give you
Speaker 2: a position to be a unit master sniper. And just
Speaker 2: to get on the basic course. When I did it, Prerexit,
Speaker 2: was you need to have basic comms, communication and reconnaissance patrolmen. So,
Speaker 2: like we'd chatted before, like your infantry skills are already
Speaker 2: are already pretty up there. We had a pre course
Speaker 2: of twenty four candidates online that whittled down to eighteen
Speaker 2: after a week of you know where they just use
Speaker 2: to use the ranger school term where they smoked us
Speaker 2: pretty good. And and then to the course where we
Speaker 2: graduated three of the eighteen, so a pretty high attrition rate.
Speaker 2: Back then with the course.
Speaker 1: And I mean aside from that, you're learning obviously marksmanships, stocks,
Speaker 1: target identification, target distance estimation and all all these kind
Speaker 1: of foundational sniper skills.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, you know, the course is broken down into
Speaker 2: different you know, performance checks, judging, distance observation, obviously marksmanship,
Speaker 2: stalking and and back back then you know five stalking.
Speaker 2: The course was very heavily weighted on stalking. That was
Speaker 2: that was a real that was a real man eater.
Speaker 2: That's where we lost so many candidates because it was
Speaker 2: just it was just hard. And I think that's that
Speaker 2: is something that really sets the Canadian sniper of course,
Speaker 2: apart from from some other ones, is is just the
Speaker 2: the level of stalking the skill that you know, we're
Speaker 2: you're expected to be able to achieve the level you're
Speaker 2: expected to be able to achieve, you know, on the
Speaker 2: Basic Sniper course.
Speaker 3: And it's and that's sorry to interrupt Barry. There's a
Speaker 3: great chapter Barry actually wrote on stalking which is highly detailed,
Speaker 3: but it really talks not just about the physical grueling
Speaker 3: aspect of it, but also about the emotional mental strength
Speaker 3: that is required for you to actually complete the stock Sorry,
Speaker 3: I had to throw that in there.
Speaker 2: It was a great chapter. Yeah, No, absolutely, and that
Speaker 2: is a big that is a big part in the
Speaker 2: book because it's any sniper, they they're always going to
Speaker 2: remember the stocking phase of their course because it's it's
Speaker 2: just like I think I describe it in the book
Speaker 2: as it's like it's it's a man eater and it's
Speaker 2: a dream it's a dream crusher, because that's that's just
Speaker 2: where that's where we lose so many guys because it's
Speaker 2: so difficult. It's such a difficult aspect of the course.
Speaker 1: And let's talk hardware for a second here. Uh, the
Speaker 1: Canadians are known to love their three three eighths. Is
Speaker 1: that what you learned to fire in the course or
Speaker 1: was there a different platform that you guys were taught
Speaker 1: on initially?
Speaker 2: So my core we were using a C three A
Speaker 2: one with with a Nerdle ten power fixed ten power
Speaker 2: bullet drop compensator three to eight. It was an old gun.
Speaker 2: But she's she fired, she fired straight.
Speaker 1: I I was laughing when I read about that in
Speaker 1: the book because friends of mine who had gone to
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps Scout sniper course used the Inudal scope
Speaker 1: and they told me the exact same thing you guys
Speaker 1: wrote in the book, that the mill dots are made
Speaker 1: out of wax or something like this, and they melt
Speaker 1: off of the crosshairs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can always say you can tell an old
Speaker 2: Canadian sniper and arrange because he'll he'll take his hat
Speaker 2: and he'll put it on his scope. Yeah, because the
Speaker 2: radical was wire and the mill dots are made of wax.
Speaker 2: So you never wanted the scope to heat up because
Speaker 2: then your mill dots get out of shape and then
Speaker 2: you're doing a judging distance po and you know you're
Speaker 2: trying to cut that target by a mill dot that
Speaker 2: you know should be a mill and maybe now it's
Speaker 2: one point three or one point two so we've we've
Speaker 2: definitely advanced from that.
Speaker 1: And for the young people out there as civilians who
Speaker 1: are not necessarily acquainted, could you describe the two positions
Speaker 1: on the sniper team, the sniper and spotter for folks
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. The way the way we would operate is
Speaker 2: the you know, you have you have your shooter, your
Speaker 2: primary shooter who will will kind of have all the
Speaker 2: primary data, the primary dope dope on the gun, and
Speaker 2: then you'll have your spotter. The way the way we
Speaker 2: would structure it is your your spotter is your more
Speaker 2: senior guy because spotting is Spotting is more difficult. Spotting
Speaker 2: requires more skill. Spotting, Spotting requires more time. And if
Speaker 2: you've moved into the spotting position, you've you've already had
Speaker 2: that that time on the gun. And I always describe
Speaker 2: it to people and they're always in amazement. I always say, well,
Speaker 2: you've seen the movie The Matrix, and you see when
Speaker 2: Neo's dodging bullets and you can see that shockwave coming
Speaker 2: off the bullet. I tell people, well you can see that,
Speaker 2: and they're like, you can't see that, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you could see that, and that's you know, ultimately, why
Speaker 2: why we're spotting and why when you're when you're seeing
Speaker 2: a sniper team, you know that spotter is so the
Speaker 2: spotting scope in line to the shooter with his scope
Speaker 2: over the barrel, so you're getting that true relation to
Speaker 2: when you're seeing that swirl when when you're spotting that
Speaker 2: round to you know, if you don't get a first
Speaker 2: round hit, as Hollywood makes it look like we always
Speaker 2: get first round hits. But as you know, Jack, that's
Speaker 2: that's not always the It doesn't always happen. So you
Speaker 2: want to have a good spotter who's going to be
Speaker 2: able to make that quick, fast correction you know, either
Speaker 2: you know a hold off or or you know if
Speaker 2: you're gonna just windage or whatever. But that's the basics
Speaker 2: of how we'll work in a two man team.
Speaker 1: The spotter really is like the human calculator that comes
Speaker 1: up with the formula and tells the sniper what the
Speaker 1: program into the scope. And the sniper really is just
Speaker 1: a marksman, real a very good marksman. But all he
Speaker 1: has to do is pull the trigger, right, He has
Speaker 1: an easy job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean we we train and we cross
Speaker 2: train so much, and especially before we deploy that you know,
Speaker 2: if I have to roll over and get behind, we'll
Speaker 2: say the three three eight. You know, you know I
Speaker 2: can do it vice versa. You know, he can come
Speaker 2: over and spot and and again. Like I think, why
Speaker 2: we are so good or why we're you know, why
Speaker 2: we are very good at the job of being a
Speaker 2: sniping is that we just have that we have that
Speaker 2: cross training and we have that confidence to switch out
Speaker 2: in a position because you know, if we're going out
Speaker 2: for two or three days, one guy can't stay on
Speaker 2: the gun for all that time. You know, you got
Speaker 2: to switch out, and you got to have the confidence
Speaker 2: and your teammates to be able to to be able
Speaker 2: to do the job if if you're not the one
Speaker 2: on the gun.
Speaker 1: You know, this is something I've heard, Barry, you can
Speaker 1: confirm or deny for me if this is true or not.
Speaker 1: I heard that One of the reasons why the Canadians
Speaker 1: are field such good sniper teams is it has to
Speaker 1: do with in the Canadian military, those teams can stay
Speaker 1: together much longer than they can for instance, in the
Speaker 1: American military, where the sniper and spotter have worked together
Speaker 1: for years and years.
Speaker 2: Definitely, Jack, in my experience, you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: that's that's pretty true. And I think if you talk
Speaker 2: to other Canadians they would say the same. And I
Speaker 2: think that's also to the point where we're a small military,
Speaker 2: you know, especially compared to the US, you know, and
Speaker 2: we try to keep the specialties to where they need
Speaker 2: to be. So if a guy, you know, if he
Speaker 2: gets into snipers and he's doing well and he's progressing,
Speaker 2: then why wouldn't we want to keep him in that position?
Speaker 2: And then you know, and like you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: you build that confidence with your with your spotter and
Speaker 2: vice versa. And the more arranged time you get, you know,
Speaker 2: shooting in all the different conditions, different distances and such,
Speaker 2: and especially if you get to deploy with with with
Speaker 2: that guy and with that team and stay together, it's
Speaker 2: just gonna make you it's gonna make you better, it's
Speaker 2: gonna make you more effective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's huge to have that kind of rapport between
Speaker 1: the sniper and spotter over such a long period. And
Speaker 1: I know this is jumping a little bit forward in
Speaker 1: your personal story, but while we're talking about training, i'd
Speaker 1: like to bring it up. You mentioned the advanced course.
Speaker 1: How does that differ from the basic one? That we've
Speaker 1: been talking about.
Speaker 2: So so the basic I hate to call it basic
Speaker 2: because it's anything but basic, but it's you know, you're
Speaker 2: laying the foundations for everything that's gonna that's gonna propel
Speaker 2: you forward, you know, as a sniper, whereas the advanced
Speaker 2: course is you're you're you're learning the tactical side, the
Speaker 2: employment of a sniper. Debt about briefing company commanders, about
Speaker 2: briefing unit commanders on the best way to employ the
Speaker 2: best way to employ a sniper debt because we don't
Speaker 2: have or or we didn't have we never we didn't
Speaker 2: have an officer. So an n c O was an
Speaker 2: n c O was it in our In our case,
Speaker 2: it was a warrant officer, And you know, he's responsible
Speaker 2: to go and potentially brief a lieutenant colonel. And and
Speaker 2: if we break it down further me as a as
Speaker 2: a debt commander with my my dad, if I'm you know,
Speaker 2: going to work in a company with an infantry company,
Speaker 2: then it's going to be a sergeant that's going to
Speaker 2: be going in briefing a major potentially, So you know,
Speaker 2: and I think having that n c O knowledge and
Speaker 2: and and learning those skills of building your courses of
Speaker 2: action and being able to to do a brief in
Speaker 2: front of officers. It's you know, it's just another I
Speaker 2: think it's just another skill that you know, Canadians and
Speaker 2: snipers that we bring to the table. That's why I
Speaker 2: throw in something on that. I'm sorry to interrupt, Jack.
Speaker 3: You know, the interesting thing is having talked to a
Speaker 3: bunch of these guys, I was always amazed as to
Speaker 3: how many officers had no idea how to deploy snipers
Speaker 3: in combat zones. How it was up to the ums,
Speaker 3: the unit massive sniper or whoever it was, to actually
Speaker 3: kind of convince them and brief the officers as to
Speaker 3: the best deployment of various detachments across the front or
Speaker 3: something like that.
Speaker 2: That was a huge thing. I was surprised by that.
Speaker 3: I would have thought by now in the twenty first century,
Speaker 3: you know, they would know how to employ snipers to
Speaker 3: the best abilities for everyone involved.
Speaker 2: But that wasn't always the case.
Speaker 1: I think it's an ongoing issue mirror. I mean, any
Speaker 1: kind of specialized troops, be they snipers, reconnaissance or even
Speaker 1: like mortars. And now today you get into electronic warfare
Speaker 1: and drone specialists. You know, if the officers haven't been
Speaker 1: brought up on that, on those tactics in their basic course,
Speaker 1: then they're not going to know how to employ those
Speaker 1: troops when they have them, you know, as a resource.
Speaker 2: Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think I think too.
Speaker 2: I mean as a if I'm a decmmander and I'm
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, you know, I don't I want to be
Speaker 2: able to explain my capabilities to an officer. I don't
Speaker 2: want him to be trying to explain my capabilities to
Speaker 2: me because he hasn't done the course. He hasn't done
Speaker 2: the training, right, he doesn't know, he hasn't gone out
Speaker 2: in these tiny small groups, you know, where you have
Speaker 2: to be self sufficient where if qrf's on fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: notice to move, that doesn't mean shit because there it's
Speaker 2: thirty minutes till they get to you, right. So my
Speaker 2: team is my team, and I know how to best
Speaker 2: employ it. So and you know, survivability is one of
Speaker 2: the factors that I have to look at when I'm
Speaker 2: I am going to deploy my debt, especially you know,
Speaker 2: into combat.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the advanced course is training you guys to
Speaker 1: be the voice inside the talk that's representing the sniper
Speaker 1: detachment exactly. Yeah, you went to ranger school. You mentioned that.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little bit more as we
Speaker 1: get down here. Tell us about your first deployment over
Speaker 1: to Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: So the first deployment in snipers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, your first was with the infantry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean two thousand and five was your
Speaker 3: first deployment to Afghanistan in the regular army.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as as just an infantry soldier and then
Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean, I mean two thousand and six,
Speaker 2: there was you know, I was I was sniper trained.
Speaker 2: I was in the sniper platoon, and Canada had we
Speaker 2: had been in Afghanistan and at least in Kandahart now
Speaker 2: for a few years, so you know, I remember, I
Speaker 2: really remember it because guys were dying and in the
Speaker 2: Canadian Army we were still getting used to that, like
Speaker 2: we're in combat and guys are dying, and so there's
Speaker 2: just you know, there's that build up to the deployment,
Speaker 2: and you know, and then you get there and I
Speaker 2: think there's always that thing in the back of your
Speaker 2: head is like, you know, okay, I've been a soldier
Speaker 2: for you know, eight nine years now like, but I
Speaker 2: haven't been a soldier in combat yet, and I'm going
Speaker 2: into combat and I'm going to see combat like, and
Speaker 2: how am I going to react? So have that in
Speaker 2: the back of your head, like how what am I
Speaker 2: going to do when the bullets start flying? You know,
Speaker 2: how am I going to react? So definitely not trepidation.
Speaker 2: But you know, and I talk about it in the
Speaker 2: book in during aut MEDUSA, when you know, the first
Speaker 2: time when I was personally under direct fire when the
Speaker 2: tal band were just shooting at me, and you know,
Speaker 2: I remember it so well. We were wed, We've been
Speaker 2: up in mouse Gar supporting at MEDUSA, and the worst
Speaker 2: of it was was over, and I said, ah, you know,
Speaker 2: I got to go down and make a phone call.
Speaker 2: So walk down the down the mountain about eight hundred
Speaker 2: meters to one of the labs. And you know, of
Speaker 2: course I'm wearing a soft cap. I don't have anybody armran.
Speaker 2: I've got my C eight suppress the eight slung over
Speaker 2: my back and you know, I'm walking into the left
Speaker 2: as the argandab. But on the other side is you know,
Speaker 2: the Taliband still there. And I hear a machine gun
Speaker 2: burst off to my left and I don't think anything
Speaker 2: of it. And I think because it was so far away,
Speaker 2: you know, the rounds were subsnic when they went over
Speaker 2: my head, so there was no crack. But the rocks
Speaker 2: started just just kind of dancing all above me, and
Speaker 2: I said, holy shit, they're shooting at me. And I
Speaker 2: just swung my C eight around, grabbed it. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to shoot back, obviously, and I just ran. I
Speaker 2: just I sprinted as fast as they could to that
Speaker 2: lab and I got to it, and you know, I
Speaker 2: get behind the big, big green monster and I'm safe.
Speaker 2: And I was just like, holy shit, they were shooting
Speaker 2: at me.
Speaker 1: And you know, you mentioned the Arghandab Valley and I
Speaker 1: just want to point out that we have interviewed a
Speaker 1: eighty second Airborne Division guy and one hundred and first
Speaker 1: Airborne Division guy who told us about, you know, operating
Speaker 1: in that valley as infantry. And I mean that place
Speaker 1: was nasty. That was a very hot area.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it it it was a hot area. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'll say we as first combat deployment, you know, we
Speaker 2: we were learning fast. You know, we were we were
Speaker 2: learning quick. We're doing a lot of infills. Well ninety
Speaker 2: nine percent of our infills we were doing by night,
Speaker 2: you know, small units MBG. It all lucky if we
Speaker 2: had some surveillance overhead, you know, telling us the way
Speaker 2: was clear. But yeah, it was a heavily it was
Speaker 2: a heavily idd area, very difficult to identify, you know,
Speaker 2: good guys from bad guys. One day there, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they they're they're spraying eight K rounds at you. So
Speaker 2: it was definitely an intense area and a lot of
Speaker 2: a lot of lessons learned working in and out of there.
Speaker 1: But can you kind of lay out the big picture
Speaker 1: what Operation Medusa was, because that's sort of like all
Speaker 1: in and around this book.
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, it's certainly a big portion. So
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, the Canadian contingent and mirror jump
Speaker 2: in here anytime.
Speaker 3: I want to point out something real quick. Actually, the
Speaker 3: interesting thing is two thousand and six was really mostly
Speaker 3: a Canadian operation in that area. I mean, I'm not
Speaker 3: saying no Americans participated, because we know differently, but it
Speaker 3: was really primarily a Canadian operation. And in two thousand
Speaker 3: and six you could still call in a lot of
Speaker 3: air support, artillery, things like that, and that would change
Speaker 3: in twenty ten.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 3: My impression has always been from Medusa is one of
Speaker 3: the biggest Canadian ops I think since the Korean War.
Speaker 3: I think correct me if I'm wrong, but I think
Speaker 3: it was. And they were supposed to seize a particular
Speaker 3: town and drive out the Taliban from there, right and
Speaker 3: they had to cross the river, and there was all
Speaker 3: sorts of aerial bombardment, artillery, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: But I think political pressure forced an early attack. I
Speaker 3: don't think the Canadians smile. I don't think the Canadians
Speaker 3: were quite ready to launch the assault. I don't think
Speaker 3: that it's soft enough targets, things like that. But the
Speaker 3: key thing to remember in two thousand and six they
Speaker 3: had a lot of air and artillery availability and they
Speaker 3: could basically hit anything they wanted to. And that it
Speaker 3: will change by twenty ten, as Barry will eventually tell.
Speaker 2: Us, but meda OP Medusa was a huge.
Speaker 3: Thing for Canada, and Barry will tell you all about
Speaker 3: the sniper.
Speaker 2: Use over there.
Speaker 3: But we should also remember Op Medusa is where Canadians
Speaker 3: take a lot of casualties, and not from the Taliban
Speaker 3: but from Americans.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I'll let Barry jump back in Yeah, Jack
Speaker 2: lake Meer said it was. It was a big operation.
Speaker 2: We you know, we were going into into Panjway to
Speaker 2: to push the Taliban out. You know, I was a
Speaker 2: I was a master corporal. I don't know what that
Speaker 2: would would that equate to in the in the US military.
Speaker 2: So we had I was the second in command of
Speaker 2: our of our three sometimes four man sniper detachment, depending
Speaker 2: on what we were doing. We were attached to Charles Company,
Speaker 2: and it was about a two day road movement into
Speaker 2: the Argandaub and then we seized. We seized the we
Speaker 2: seized massom Gar and the infantry guys were were happy
Speaker 2: to throw us out of their labs. And then we
Speaker 2: had to walk up massoom Gar with you know, incredibly
Speaker 2: heavy rocks. Probably mine was probably tipping one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty pounds. I had an AR ten, I had two
Speaker 2: hundred rounds seven six two and in that plus all
Speaker 2: of our optics, plus food, water and all that. And
Speaker 2: you know, the the initial once we got up and
Speaker 2: we got set up, you know, and and we're in
Speaker 2: the high ground and we're looking across the Argandab and
Speaker 2: you know, everything is quiet, right, everything is quiet. We're
Speaker 2: not seeing any movement. It's it's kind of early morning.
Speaker 2: The labs, the infantry units, they're getting into their into
Speaker 2: their positions. And then, like Mirad said, there's there is
Speaker 2: a plan for a two to three day bombardment of
Speaker 2: the area. That happened, but it was not the intensity
Speaker 2: or the length that we were initially told in the
Speaker 2: in thes process of it. And I'll tell you why
Speaker 2: that was. You know, they fired, from what I heard,
Speaker 2: they fired everything from enable guns to mlrs is you know,
Speaker 2: a tens every aircraft you could think dropped on that
Speaker 2: lot tillery. And after a few days of that, the
Speaker 2: decision was made for the Charles Company, the Infantry Company,
Speaker 2: to push across.
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Speaker 1: Thanks guys, and you guys set up an observation position
Speaker 1: and we're overseeing that push.
Speaker 2: Well, we we had been up in an observation post.
Speaker 2: We were we were co located with it. We actually
Speaker 2: had a couple of Americans with us that we're we're doing, uh,
Speaker 2: we're doing a couple of things as well. And you know,
Speaker 2: my detachment commander made the decision that we'd be better
Speaker 2: suited to go across with the push, and once we
Speaker 2: got across, then to push out to a flank and
Speaker 2: then to provide plank security and overwatch. So we were
Speaker 2: actually in the thick of it and we turned into
Speaker 2: back into just pure infantry soldiers after some of a
Speaker 2: couple of vehicles got hit, mobility kills, guys got killed,
Speaker 2: and you know, for a couple a couple of minutes
Speaker 2: there all hell broke loose.
Speaker 3: The idea was that the like We said before that
Speaker 3: the bombardment would soften up everything, and the assumption had
Speaker 3: been I think it was shortened by a day.
Speaker 2: Don't quote me on that.
Speaker 3: The assumption had been that everything had been softened up,
Speaker 3: the Taliban weren't going to pose a problem, and so
Speaker 3: you guys launched the assault across the river and all
Speaker 3: that stuff, and that's and everything to your front opened
Speaker 3: up basically, So the apartment may have done something, but
Speaker 3: it certainly didn't soften up with the resistance by any
Speaker 3: stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 2: I think those guys were too hard and tough to
Speaker 2: be softened up like they were. They were fierce. They
Speaker 2: were ferocious. Uh they you know, they bought us for
Speaker 2: every inch and ultimately we we pulled back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm steering.
Speaker 2: It's steering that pulled back.
Speaker 3: Though I think that Charlie Company gets hit by the
Speaker 3: AT ten unless I'm mistaken.
Speaker 2: Somewhere around that time, once we had, once the push
Speaker 2: had stopped and we had taken we'd taken at that
Speaker 2: point for four kia, a lot of wounded, a couple
Speaker 2: of vehicle kills. The decision was made to pull back,
Speaker 2: and we pulled back to our original position on Massive Guarden.
Speaker 2: It was a day or two later when an A
Speaker 2: ten came and you know, again I can only speculate,
Speaker 2: but you know, they got cleared on. My understanding was
Speaker 2: was they got talked onto a fire that was on
Speaker 2: the other side of the river. The fire was misidentified,
Speaker 2: and you know, a short burst was let out on
Speaker 2: on the A ten and you know, for those of
Speaker 2: us who know the sound of it, it's unmistakable. And
Speaker 2: that burp was a very short burp, you know, and
Speaker 2: it ended up killing one Canadian and wounding upwards of
Speaker 2: twenty or twenty five and making that infantry company combat ineffective.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus, what happened after that? I mean, then
Speaker 1: the sun comes up the next day, and I mean,
Speaker 1: what's the what's the battle plan? Because I remember you're
Speaker 1: writing in the book about like the base getting attacked
Speaker 1: that you were in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in that situation with with the A ten,
Speaker 2: I remember I was sleeping and I had like my
Speaker 2: ranger blanket pulled over my head, and that A ten
Speaker 2: woke me up, you know, and everyone, and then you
Speaker 2: look down at the main body of the company and
Speaker 2: you just see, you know, dust and smoke, and it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, what just happened is the is the reaction
Speaker 2: and luck we had some Canadian SF guys uh located
Speaker 2: very near to us, and you know they sent their
Speaker 2: advanced medic guys down and just started patching and bandaging,
Speaker 2: and you know, it was, it was, it was. It
Speaker 2: was a crazy time for sure, especially when we don't know,
Speaker 2: we didn't know what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's terrible. And so I mean, you guys
Speaker 1: start evacuating the wounded, and what was the next phase
Speaker 1: for this mission?
Speaker 2: You know, that's that's jack where it got it kind
Speaker 2: of got, it got weird, you know, is the so
Speaker 2: we evacuate the you know, chnucks came in because there's
Speaker 2: so many casualties. Chnucks came in. They're taking the wounded out,
Speaker 2: and you know, slowly it was almost like the Four
Speaker 2: on the Mountains sort of scaled down. We stayed up
Speaker 2: in that op. We had a like I said, we
Speaker 2: had a there's a Canadian SF team up there watching
Speaker 2: another objective and they were they left, and then an
Speaker 2: ODA team ended up coming up because they were pushing
Speaker 2: into our ao and you know, eventually after that, you know,
Speaker 2: intense push by Charles Company to get across the argondob
Speaker 2: and to seize that ground. Eventually, what ended up happening,
Speaker 2: it was a combination of an a Canadian and I
Speaker 2: think some Americans, you know, probably two weeks later, and
Speaker 2: they just gently walked across the argondab and met no resistance.
Speaker 1: Well that is weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I should point out the one.
Speaker 3: I also think do some Gord and the other detachments
Speaker 3: were calling in strikes unless I'm mistaken, whereas you guys
Speaker 3: had gone down h to become infantrymen. Basically, I think
Speaker 3: the other other detachments were out there still calling fire
Speaker 3: and all that kind.
Speaker 2: Of stuff onto onto the village. Unless I'm mistaken on that,
Speaker 2: I think. Yeah. Cord's debt was also on masson Guard
Speaker 2: here about eight nine hundred meters away from us. They
Speaker 2: were definitely calling in fire. And then we had another
Speaker 2: sniper debt with a blocking force to the north. And
Speaker 2: even once when we did finally pull back and got
Speaker 2: back up into our original position, we were we were
Speaker 2: much more effective there, like Mier said, because you know,
Speaker 2: we had artillery, we had we had air and you know,
Speaker 2: I think again what makes any like we were chatting
Speaker 2: before makes a Canadian sniper you know, lethal is Okay,
Speaker 2: I can't shoot you with the gun. Well I have
Speaker 2: a radio and I'm gonna call in a fire mission
Speaker 2: on you. And oh I don't have guns. Well I'm
Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna jump onto the you know e cast
Speaker 2: net and and see who's up there, and and and
Speaker 2: and see what I can call in. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think we we that's a bit bring a big
Speaker 2: skill that we brought the tape and that we also
Speaker 2: you know, learnt in Afghanistan, you know, in combat is Hey,
Speaker 2: maybe we can't get them with the gun, but there's
Speaker 2: plenty of tools in the toolbox that we can use.
Speaker 1: And when the when you met up with the ODA
Speaker 1: up there, is that where you ran into your old
Speaker 1: ranger buddy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, and it was it was really surreal.
Speaker 2: So I mean, like I said, I did Ranger School
Speaker 2: O three and you know, you meet some great people
Speaker 2: through it, and uh, I meet I meet a guy
Speaker 2: Joe Healy. He's uh, he was ODA. He was a
Speaker 2: sergeant and we just sort of we were in the
Speaker 2: same company or platoon in Ranger School, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: we just sort of clicked. We we stuck together through
Speaker 2: the whole school. I remember during one of the phases,
Speaker 2: I was the pl and he my platoon sergeant, and
Speaker 2: we had to set up the patrol base and everyone's
Speaker 2: tired and hungry, and nobody wants to listen. They just
Speaker 2: want to get their fifteen minutes to sleep and eat
Speaker 2: their ration. And him and I would just work, just
Speaker 2: work great together, you know, And you know you lose,
Speaker 2: you lose touch with these guys as much as you
Speaker 2: think you're gonna you're gonna be able to keep in
Speaker 2: touch with them, you know, but it's but it's hard.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's this is like host MEDUSA Push were
Speaker 2: still in massive Guar and I was on shift in
Speaker 2: the op and I'm just I'm looking across the argandaub
Speaker 2: and we're told, hey, there's a there's no DA team
Speaker 2: coming up. Just to see they're coming up. They're going
Speaker 2: to park half their team here and they're gonna go
Speaker 2: set up another position higher up on the mountain. So
Speaker 2: it's okay. So they come up and I can hear
Speaker 2: them behind me, but I'm on shifts. I don't pay
Speaker 2: any attention. They go up the mountain and I get
Speaker 2: relieved and I'm sitting back in the shade and I'm
Speaker 2: looking at all their backpacks, their rocks and they all
Speaker 2: had their name tapes on them. And I look and
Speaker 2: I see the last name, Heally, And I joked to
Speaker 2: one of the guys Cash, I said, hey, that was
Speaker 2: my best buddy in sniper school, you know, knowing well
Speaker 2: that you guys have what did I say, ranger school? Sorry,
Speaker 2: knowing that you know, the US has upwards of fifty
Speaker 2: thousand Special Forces soldiers and the whole Canadian military has
Speaker 2: about fifty thousand in it. So I thought never crossed
Speaker 2: my mind that that was that was the guy. And
Speaker 2: so I see see them, all the US and the
Speaker 2: ODA team. They're they're walking down the hill and you know,
Speaker 2: getting bigger, and okay, I can I can make out
Speaker 2: arms and legs now and you know, and I'm looking
Speaker 2: and I'm looking, and I see this big, tall guy
Speaker 2: and he's got a Boston Red Sox hat on and
Speaker 2: and I'm looking at him, and I look back at
Speaker 2: his rucksack, and I look at the name, and I
Speaker 2: look back at him and I just say, no way.
Speaker 2: So he keeps he keeps walking closer, and he's you know,
Speaker 2: He's basically right in front of me and I have
Speaker 2: my my Tilli hat hold Dell Low and I just
Speaker 2: look at him and I go, hey, hoser. He looks
Speaker 2: at me and we just kind of smile. And then
Speaker 2: you have this rest of this you know, Green Beray team,
Speaker 2: who were going, who's this fucking Canadian calling us a hoser? Right?
Speaker 2: And then yeah, the next thing, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: we hug, We have a we have a super awesome
Speaker 2: man hug. And then uh yeah, he's like, holy shit, guys,
Speaker 2: you know, in his in his accent because I think
Speaker 2: all Americans have accent, He's like, yeah, this is Barry
Speaker 2: from Ranger School. And and you know it's funny because
Speaker 2: that introduction and just having that connection that whole ODA
Speaker 2: team was like, fuck, yeah, you guys are good, right,
Speaker 2: And we did some damage up there. You know, we
Speaker 2: definitely did some damage up there with you know, them
Speaker 2: having the air assets that they could control, and just
Speaker 2: our ability to observe and to uh and to you know,
Speaker 2: to to pick targets. It was I'll say it was
Speaker 2: meant to be.
Speaker 1: There was another interesting vignette that I'd like to ask
Speaker 1: you that I think happened somewhere around this time where
Speaker 1: you guys had an op that got compromised by the
Speaker 1: locals and it was just like one village boy seeing
Speaker 1: that some rocks were overturned or something like that. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about that story?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and that was a constant issue that
Speaker 2: we had. Was and we would all say, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like the mountain is the mountain is their TV?
Speaker 2: They don't, they don't. That's what they look at. And
Speaker 2: when if something's out of place, they know it right
Speaker 2: like they know that it's moved, they know that it's changed.
Speaker 2: They they just had this uncanny ability to to just
Speaker 2: to be able to understand the smallest change in their
Speaker 2: environment and think something's up there. And I mean, like Jackie,
Speaker 2: the amount of times that we had been out and
Speaker 2: just thought we were we were good, and no one
Speaker 2: saw us, and then all of a sudden, the kid
Speaker 2: would just come walking out, and they would alway a sudden,
Speaker 2: a kid and they would just come walking out and
Speaker 2: he turned and he just look right at us, and
Speaker 2: we're like, he can't see us. We're highly trained snipers,
Speaker 2: masters of stealth and camouflage. He can't see us. And
Speaker 2: you know, anytime they sent the kid out, they knew
Speaker 2: we were in the area, and then we were like,
Speaker 2: all right, time to go, because if we didn't, we
Speaker 2: knew what was the next It's gonna be a RpK
Speaker 2: versus going to be an RPG or or hopefully not
Speaker 2: a recoilists rifle around that it's going to come ripping
Speaker 2: over our heads. But yeah, because the kids were a warning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something about you know, children get into everything.
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who actually has kids knows, you know,
Speaker 1: how that works, or remembers what it was like to
Speaker 1: be a kid themselves. And there's another story in your
Speaker 1: book that your buddy Gordon tells in Kosovo where him
Speaker 1: and his buddy are wearing their gilly suits and they're
Speaker 1: wearing the big bear suits and think they're super well hidden,
Speaker 1: and a little girl has her ball bounce away off
Speaker 1: trail and she goes down the hill to get her
Speaker 1: ball and sees through snipers like holy shit, Yeah it
Speaker 1: goes on her mom. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3: Also another thing, I'm sorry, I want to point out
Speaker 3: another thing. I mean, I think you were a sniper
Speaker 3: in the range of Italians, Jack, unless I'm mistaken or
Speaker 3: at least you were on the long gun of sorts.
Speaker 3: But what I always found interesting is when I was
Speaker 3: talking to these guys is about the ranges that they
Speaker 3: were shooting at in Afghanistan. Right, this was genuine sniping.
Speaker 3: This was not law enforcement shooting or you know, city
Speaker 3: urban shooting. This was long range shooting. So I was
Speaker 3: always I always found that to be quintessential Canadian. I
Speaker 3: don't know why, but since I guess Canadians were only
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan, they hold the record for these long range shots,
Speaker 3: and it's always stuck out to me about how good
Speaker 3: they really were at long range shooting.
Speaker 2: This is the one thing I observed from all my
Speaker 2: research and hanging out with the guys.
Speaker 3: So anyway, I thought I should point that out.
Speaker 1: Barry, Do you want to move forward to the twenty
Speaker 1: ten deployment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So, you know, I guess four years removed,
Speaker 2: I would have done my I would have done my
Speaker 2: advanced sniper course. And then it was our turn to rotate,
Speaker 2: to rotate back in again, and and and like you
Speaker 2: had said, Jack, you know, with the ability to stay together,
Speaker 2: I'll say that, you know, our sniper platoon changed, but
Speaker 2: the core, the core was still there, the core guys
Speaker 2: you know, who were there in O six with the
Speaker 2: that experience and those lessons learned, you know, we're going
Speaker 2: back in twenty ten. And plus we had the the
Speaker 2: bonus that we had trained the guys that were coming
Speaker 2: with us, because we run our sniper courses in house,
Speaker 2: Unlike I know, US Army they have their US Army
Speaker 2: Sniper School. You know, they all go through there. They
Speaker 2: all go through the same thing we would run our
Speaker 2: units would, we would run our own sniper courses. And again,
Speaker 2: you know that helps because we're training the guys that
Speaker 2: are potentially going to come into our into our unit,
Speaker 2: that are going to come and serve with us, that
Speaker 2: are going to you know, go into combat with us.
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a big bonus. So we we
Speaker 2: deploy back twenty ten. I'm a I'm an attachment commander
Speaker 2: now and we're I'll say we're in a we're in
Speaker 2: a different We're definitely in a different area. We still shoot.
Speaker 2: We still went back to a few of the old
Speaker 2: the old haunts, but we were I guess we call
Speaker 2: like Adams, I Adams, I chain Chalawatt. Definitely some different areas.
Speaker 2: The big thing that stands out with that tour was
Speaker 2: the amount of IEDs had just increased tenfold in two
Speaker 2: thousand and six. I think the Taliban they tried to
Speaker 2: fight us more. They would try to go toe to
Speaker 2: toe with US engages with a lot more small arms,
Speaker 2: a lot more ambushes, but they lost because you know,
Speaker 2: we've got artillery, we've got aircraft stacked at all these levels,
Speaker 2: and we've just got we're just so lethal. We're just
Speaker 2: such a lethal force. And a lot of that was
Speaker 2: combined with the obviously with the Americans with multiple ODA
Speaker 2: teams that we worked with, and in twenty ten it
Speaker 2: seemed like that was scaled back a bit, but the
Speaker 2: IDs were just littered everywhere. We had a lot of
Speaker 2: casualties from ID strikes, luckily not us, although we did
Speaker 2: have one in two thousand and six when we were
Speaker 2: out on a patrol. But even the ROE in twenty
Speaker 2: ten was different. The ability to call in air or
Speaker 2: to call an artillery was much more. It was restricted
Speaker 2: as far as what we could do, and I think
Speaker 2: that made our role as sniper's even more important because
Speaker 2: we could we could use that precision fire with the
Speaker 2: minimum collateral damage, which was which was a big thing
Speaker 2: in twenty ten where I mean maybe we're going we
Speaker 2: were going a little bit more hearts and minds by
Speaker 2: that time. Now, having been fighting this insurgency for almost
Speaker 2: a decade, I would definitely say there was a definite
Speaker 2: shift in twenty ten into how we fought, just like
Speaker 2: there was a shift in how the Taliban fought in
Speaker 2: twenty ten. So it was it was a you know
Speaker 2: your your steps, and we still did the majority of
Speaker 2: our insertions at night, We did the majority of our
Speaker 2: insertions on foot, but it definitely up the risk factor
Speaker 2: just with the increased ID thread on that tour.
Speaker 1: And you talk a little bit about I think one
Speaker 1: of your engagements you thwarted a ambush that was being planned.
Speaker 2: Trying to think of the one if there.
Speaker 3: Was more patrol going out. You had a patrol going
Speaker 3: out and you guys were on top of the mountain.
Speaker 3: I think it was with Gordon. I think that's the
Speaker 3: thing that was. I think that was God. Yeah, he
Speaker 3: hit someone who was preparing to send an ambush for
Speaker 3: the infantry patrol that was going to go through the town.
Speaker 3: And uh, I think you observed some guy with a
Speaker 3: radio or something like that, and then Yeah, Gordon didn't
Speaker 3: tell anyone he was going to take the shot, and
Speaker 3: he scared the ship out of everybody on patrol when
Speaker 3: his rifle went off. And I want to say he
Speaker 3: hit someone on that, but I don't remember that exactly,
Speaker 3: but I think that's the mission if there's like.
Speaker 2: I think jack if you know. And this was actually
Speaker 2: one of the chapters that mir Mirror wrote in third
Speaker 2: person from one of my stories, and that was when
Speaker 2: we were on on a mountain called the salavat Gar
Speaker 2: And honestly, this was just it seemed like just such
Speaker 2: a classic sniper mission where you know, the planning was excellent.
Speaker 2: The the major in charge, he knew the best way
Speaker 2: to deploy snipers was to let the snipers tell him how,
Speaker 2: how how we were going to deploy, and that was major,
Speaker 2: That was a major brown and he gave us that
Speaker 2: flexibility and we came up with the with you know,
Speaker 2: I think a stellar plan given the results, and what
Speaker 2: we did was our debt. We pushed out the night before,
Speaker 2: waited till dark, We in filled up up the mountain,
Speaker 2: we got into position, you know, still under dark, and
Speaker 2: once we were set, then they pushed a patrol out
Speaker 2: from they pushed a patrol out from one of the
Speaker 2: strong points, and so we're we're hidding up the mountains.
Speaker 2: We've got the three thirty eight. You know, the sun's
Speaker 2: coming up, You're getting a good indication of the wind
Speaker 2: because the cooking fires are coming up and they're set
Speaker 2: at different distances, so you're getting your you know, you're
Speaker 2: getting your near wind, you're getting your bar wind, and
Speaker 2: you know, we're elevated, we're hidden. And the focus was
Speaker 2: completely on this patrol that was walking through and you know,
Speaker 2: I was I was spotting at the time, and one
Speaker 2: of the guys is on the three thirty eight, and
Speaker 2: we're sort of tracking these couple of guys through through
Speaker 2: a village and the patrols coming from north to south
Speaker 2: down kind of down a wadi line, and you know,
Speaker 2: these two individuals are getting a little bit more interested
Speaker 2: in the patrol, and you know, we have our roes
Speaker 2: and we're we're very strict with our roes, and in
Speaker 2: this instant, this individual was was was definitely in contravention
Speaker 2: of the roes in close proximity to the to the patrol,
Speaker 2: and you know, without thought, you know, it was standby
Speaker 2: send it. You know, we crack a three thirty eight round.
Speaker 2: It goes over the patrol. Because they're below us, we
Speaker 2: didn't have time to warn them. You know, they all
Speaker 2: hit the deck. You know, we we engage the guy.
Speaker 2: I think he was out of a I think his
Speaker 2: six hundred and eight meters, and you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: a it's a good hit. And then you know, we
Speaker 2: just radio to the patrol, Hey, that was us. You
Speaker 2: guys are good, you know, And then control gets up
Speaker 2: and dust themselves off. They can they continue there, They
Speaker 2: continue their patrol through the town. Everything's good. They're looping
Speaker 2: back around, and we've just got a really great position.
Speaker 2: We've got basically three hundred and sixty degree views. We're
Speaker 2: fairly well hit, and we're in a defendable position, if
Speaker 2: you know, if if the ship was going to hit
Speaker 2: the fan on our end anyways, and we can see
Speaker 2: north up this road into this open area that the
Speaker 2: patrol has to cross to get back to the camp. Well,
Speaker 2: we weren't the only ones thinking that and knowing that.
Speaker 2: So as the patrols looping around and they're getting ready
Speaker 2: to come through this open area in the field, great,
Speaker 2: there's great fields below us, and you know, people were
Speaker 2: starting to mill about, and you know, they weren't farmers.
Speaker 2: And you know, a tactic that that that the Talban
Speaker 2: would always use is they would I think the hide
Speaker 2: from from the drones was from surveillance was they'd always
Speaker 2: just wrap a blanket or something around a gun and
Speaker 2: they would carry it. And that was always like an RpK. Right,
Speaker 2: It's like, that's going to be an RpK under that blanket.
Speaker 2: So guys are just starting to set up. I think
Speaker 2: Talban are starting to set up, getting eyes up up
Speaker 2: that road to where they know the Canadians are going
Speaker 2: to cross, you know, and it's a you know it's
Speaker 2: going to it's gonna funnel, it's gonna funnel them in there.
Speaker 2: And you know, so we picked this guy up walking
Speaker 2: and he's he's carrying he's carrying something's got a big
Speaker 2: blue cloth on it. We know what it is, but
Speaker 2: we don't have like, we don't have paid, we don't
Speaker 2: have a positive ID. We we can't say that's a gun,
Speaker 2: and we we can't shoot him. At this point, the
Speaker 2: team said, switched up. So we had we had another guy.
Speaker 2: We had been actually the number one on the three
Speaker 2: streight and then my two. I see he was spotting,
Speaker 2: and I'm on the colms, so I'm talking to the
Speaker 2: patrol commander and i can see him. I'm like, hey,
Speaker 2: you guys, gotta wait, you gotta stop. We got you know,
Speaker 2: we got a situation developing here. We've got just just
Speaker 2: give us a few minutes. And then so this guy
Speaker 2: carrying this you know what we believed to be a gun,
Speaker 2: he just he stops on the trail and for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: maybe to reassure himself that he was in fact carrying
Speaker 2: an RpK, he just took the cloth off, and you know,
Speaker 2: two of us are like RpK, like PEDI RpK. And
Speaker 2: we can see it. We can see where he was going.
Speaker 2: We could see where he was going to set up
Speaker 2: the gut. You know, he's just as soon as the
Speaker 2: Canadians started crossing, he was just going to start laying
Speaker 2: rounds down. And you know he's walking, he's getting close
Speaker 2: to his position, and you know, I'm talking to guys.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, do what you gotta do when when
Speaker 2: you when you see the right window for the shot.
Speaker 2: And then I'm radio in the patrol and I'm like, hold, hold, hold,
Speaker 2: just wait and then sure enough, you know, the guys,
Speaker 2: the guys engage, you know, moving target. I think that
Speaker 2: one was four seventy five. And you know, once we
Speaker 2: once we made that shot, the gig was up because
Speaker 2: all the other Taliban just turned and looked up at
Speaker 2: the mountain ye and we were like, okay, it's time
Speaker 2: to go. So we're like gay patrol. You guys are clear.
Speaker 2: And our plan was to stay up till dark and
Speaker 2: then you know, come down. And at that when I
Speaker 2: made the call like back up, we got to get
Speaker 2: out of here because there's going to be if we
Speaker 2: stay here, we're going to be in a world to hurt. So,
Speaker 2: you know, good good day for us, bad day for them.
Speaker 2: But they weren't all like that.
Speaker 1: Do you want to walk people through like the verbiage
Speaker 1: between the sniper and the spot or real quick which
Speaker 1: leads into the title of your book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I would like to hear yours
Speaker 2: yours on this. I don't know if that's uniquely Canadian
Speaker 2: or not. I've definitely heard different variations of it. But
Speaker 2: you know, you know, right from training, it's you know,
Speaker 2: you're and your sniper team and we're we're on the range.
Speaker 2: Or or or or you're in combat, it's it's always
Speaker 2: the same, and it's just this calm sort of just
Speaker 2: like rhythmic. Just you just get into this. You just
Speaker 2: get into the zone, right, you just you're because you're
Speaker 2: so comfortable behind behind the gun. You're so comfortable behind
Speaker 2: the spotting scupe and it doesn't matter if your knees
Speaker 2: and elbows are digging into jagged rock and you're bleeding.
Speaker 2: It's just you just get into that zone. And you know,
Speaker 2: the communication when you're getting down onto a target, it's
Speaker 2: just it's quiet, it's calm, and you know as as
Speaker 2: the shooter. You know, the shooter is going to make
Speaker 2: that decision as to when he's going to fire, but
Speaker 2: the spotter is the spotter is continually monitoring the targets.
Speaker 2: He's monitoring the winds, he's monitoring the mirage. You know,
Speaker 2: he's looking for those changes that he's going to need
Speaker 2: to to talk to the shooter about if we need
Speaker 2: to make a small correction. You know, we have our
Speaker 2: initial windage dialed in, but if we need to do
Speaker 2: a whole left or right, you know, that's that's what
Speaker 2: the spotter is doing. So you know, the shooter knows
Speaker 2: he's he's he's in position, he's getting his breathing down,
Speaker 2: you know, he's in that slow breathing and it's it's,
Speaker 2: you know, top of your breath. The shooter is saying
Speaker 2: stand by, where he's like, I'm on target. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm good to go. I'm ready to release the shot.
Speaker 2: He says, stand by. He's doing that three quarter xhale.
Speaker 2: And as the spotter, because you know, we're cross trained,
Speaker 2: I know where he is in his breathing cycle, and
Speaker 2: I'll try to match that sometimes too if I can.
Speaker 2: And then it's send it, you know, and once he
Speaker 2: hears that, send it, once he's ready, once he's applied
Speaker 2: all those marksmanship principles and you know we're good with
Speaker 2: the target, then it's that slow squeeze. And you know,
Speaker 2: I say this in the book, that's still the best
Speaker 2: phrase I've ever i'll I think i'll ever hear is
Speaker 2: stand by. Send it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we used very similar terminology. I think
Speaker 1: we might have said shooter ready and send it. Might
Speaker 1: have been it going back a ways for me, but
Speaker 1: very similar. So after that deployment, I mean, do you
Speaker 1: want to talk about sort of like the end of
Speaker 1: your military career and how you retired out of the military.
Speaker 2: You know, I love the military. I still love the military.
Speaker 2: And you know what the best thing for me for
Speaker 2: getting out was, you know, I got out on my terms.
Speaker 2: I was a sergeant. I had, you know, turned down
Speaker 2: the next leadership course because I just knew, I just
Speaker 2: knew I was done, you know. And and even in
Speaker 2: Mirror Rights, a mirror rates a chapter in the book
Speaker 2: and it's you know, I can tell you my mom
Speaker 2: was upset me because she read the book and and
Speaker 2: I'm I'm standing outside a tent and I'm smoking a cigarette,
Speaker 2: and my mom was like, oh my god, you smoked
Speaker 2: over there. I said, yeah, Mom, I didn't have a
Speaker 2: cigarette in my mouth. I had a you know, a
Speaker 2: dip a skull in my mouth. And you know, you
Speaker 2: just do bad things when you think there's potential for
Speaker 2: bad things that are going to happen to you. And
Speaker 2: then standing outside in a in a fob, I'm smoking
Speaker 2: a cigarette and two mortar rounds land one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty meters away inside the camp, and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: on my fifth tour. I'm in my thirties now, And
Speaker 2: it was literally that moment where I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: you know what, I've used my nine lives and then
Speaker 2: some I've lost some good friends, and I just at
Speaker 2: that time I made the decision to say, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm going to look for something else. How long were
Speaker 2: you in for at that time, Well that was that
Speaker 2: was twenty ten, So that was thirteen thirteen years, thirteen years.
Speaker 2: Five deployments and yeah, kept you busy, absolutely, Yeah. So
Speaker 2: I mean I hung around the battalion for a couple
Speaker 2: more years, taught on a few more taught on a
Speaker 2: few more courses, and then you know, I left at
Speaker 2: the pinnacle. In my mind, I wasn't going to do
Speaker 2: anything better. There was nothing I could do within the
Speaker 2: regular army that was going to tap having you know,
Speaker 2: been able to deploy twice as a as a sniper
Speaker 2: into Afghanistan, which is pretty rare amongst you know, amongst
Speaker 2: Canadian snipers get too, you know, combat deployments to Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: So you know, been there, done that, got the T shirt,
Speaker 2: and it was trying to move on.
Speaker 3: Hey, do you remember that picture you guys showed me
Speaker 3: of the stuffy that you guys said left on the
Speaker 3: path that you were hoping the Taliban would walk on
Speaker 3: and take a.
Speaker 2: Look at it. That was That was Percy the Penguin. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what year was that? Can you tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about that? So that was that was two thousand
Speaker 2: and six. And you know, again, for whatever reason, my
Speaker 2: mom had sent me this, this tiny little stuffed penguin
Speaker 2: at Christmas. He had had like a Santa Claus had
Speaker 2: on and a little jingle bell sewn into him. So
Speaker 2: we we had to tacticle him up. So we took
Speaker 2: the hat off, we took the jingle bell out, and
Speaker 2: we named him Percy. I won't tell you why we
Speaker 2: named him Percy. So Percy would ride in my in
Speaker 2: my breast pocket of my shirt on every off we
Speaker 2: went on after that. So one day we were we
Speaker 2: were double I think there's five or six of us
Speaker 2: in the team, and we had pushed out to watch
Speaker 2: an objective and we were the set. We took the
Speaker 2: second floor of this building and we had strong pointed
Speaker 2: it and we're like, well, you know, what if what
Speaker 2: if somebody walks by? You know what if the Taliban
Speaker 2: walk by? Then you know the best bet is, you know,
Speaker 2: how do we get them to stop? So what we
Speaker 2: did was we put Percy on the trail with a
Speaker 2: little note when we thought that would grab anybody's attention.
Speaker 2: I won't say what was on the note. I won't
Speaker 2: say what was on the note, but uh, you know,
Speaker 2: fortunately for the Taliban, they didn't walk by that day.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I still have Percy somewhere.
Speaker 1: I think we have a viewer question for you d
Speaker 1: if you want to read that off for.
Speaker 5: Them from al what's Barry's opinion on the modernization plans
Speaker 5: for the Canadian Army?
Speaker 2: I mean from friends that I still have in the army.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's been a lot of media about it,
Speaker 2: with you know, the Prime Minister saying he's going to
Speaker 2: meet the meet the two percent uh spending and then
Speaker 2: I think they're going in the right direction. I think
Speaker 2: I think we need to get more current. I think
Speaker 2: we always have sort of been a little bit behind
Speaker 2: in as far as procurement, but I think we always
Speaker 2: make up that where we just we have top notch soldiers,
Speaker 2: were cross trained and you know, we have the ability
Speaker 2: to act in in so many different roles and because
Speaker 2: we're such a small force, you know, we we we
Speaker 2: need to have that capability and we need to keep
Speaker 2: that capability and and I know we are. I've got
Speaker 2: friends that are you know, they're they're in Latvia with
Speaker 2: doing training missions throughout there, and guys that I had
Speaker 2: served with, and you know, from them they're telling me
Speaker 2: is that you know, they're going in the right direction,
Speaker 2: They're keeping the standards high, and you know, Canada, we're
Speaker 2: going to continue to be a top notch professional force,
Speaker 2: you know, as we go into the as we go
Speaker 2: into the next whatever, the next theater of operations is.
Speaker 1: Guys, thank you for joining us tonight. Is there anything
Speaker 1: else that we haven't talked about that you'd really like
Speaker 1: to bring up either one of you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want to point out I didn't go
Speaker 3: to Ranger school because people like Barry got my slot.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're you're blaming the dirty foreigners, the Canadians, the Canadians.
Speaker 1: The Canadians took your job, mere, Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 3: That's definitely what it is. That's why I had to
Speaker 3: move to Canada, one of them. But no, but it
Speaker 3: was great, you know, I mean, it's really great to
Speaker 3: hear Barry talk about this in some detail. And you know,
Speaker 3: the book did take on and off fifteen years to do.
Speaker 2: And the best decision.
Speaker 3: That I made and they made is that they decided
Speaker 3: to be part of it, because I think when you
Speaker 3: read the stalking chapter that Barry wrote, for example, I mean,
Speaker 3: that's the nitty gritty. If nothing else, you learn something.
Speaker 3: And then you know, if Gordon had the opportunity to
Speaker 3: make it today, we could have talked about what a
Speaker 3: nerd he is and the human computer.
Speaker 6: That he is.
Speaker 3: And you know, he wrote some very interesting chapters about
Speaker 3: what it takes to be one and weapons and you know,
Speaker 3: all the gadgets and things like that. And he talked
Speaker 3: a little bit about the future of sniping, which is
Speaker 3: in the book, so if you're interested in that, you
Speaker 3: can you can read up on that. And I remember
Speaker 3: what was very funny is when Gordon told me about this.
Speaker 2: He was attending some five I thing in Washington, d C.
Speaker 3: With a bunch of other people and we are talking
Speaker 3: about long range you know, drone AI that kind of
Speaker 3: stuff and shots at at four clicks and things like that,
Speaker 3: and they were talking about the challenges for the future
Speaker 3: with all that for the sniper and he said to
Speaker 3: two British officers behind him, said, we'll just send in drones,
Speaker 3: and Gordon was really funny and he said, you know,
Speaker 3: it really crushed our sniper hearts that these guys said
Speaker 3: that they'd send in drones instead of us. But he
Speaker 3: remains optimistic about the human involvement and sniping, even if
Speaker 3: it's super long range, even if it involves AI and
Speaker 3: drones and what have you not. So I think the
Speaker 3: key thing for me that I've taken away from all
Speaker 3: of this is the thing that you can't replace, which
Speaker 3: is that intangible human element. Right you look at someone
Speaker 3: like Barry Reti's stalking chapter, you can just imagine the
Speaker 3: pain or like any of us, you know, when we've
Speaker 3: gone through certain types of selection, the pain you're willing
Speaker 3: to put up with.
Speaker 2: Standing you get from that? Uh is uh is.
Speaker 3: I think what sets snipers and elite forces, and I
Speaker 3: will consider Canadian snipers to be absolutely elite. That sets
Speaker 3: them apart from most people. And I'm not belittling drone
Speaker 3: operators or people who work in AI, but there's something
Speaker 3: to be said about the human spirit, the intangible element.
Speaker 6: Of a guy like a Berry, like a Gordon, like you,
Speaker 6: you know, who've gone and done the work without technique,
Speaker 6: speaking without a drone, a little bit of AI maybe,
Speaker 6: And I take it back, you did guys.
Speaker 3: You guys did use some drones, but you know limited,
Speaker 3: you still needed to have your skill set and all that.
Speaker 2: So just saying human element is always key in the future.
Speaker 2: And I think Jack, like the big the big thing
Speaker 2: with this book is, you know, you know, Hollywood, Hollywood TV.
Speaker 2: There's this myth you know about you know, the sniper,
Speaker 2: and it's about it's always about making that shot right.
Speaker 2: And what what what this book does is it it
Speaker 2: teaches you and it tells stories about what it takes
Speaker 2: to get up to that point to be able to
Speaker 2: take that shot. The training that we have to go through,
Speaker 2: you know, the stocking, the shooting, the judging distance that
Speaker 2: you know, the mental the mental toll that it takes,
Speaker 2: the physical toll that it takes, you know, just to
Speaker 2: get to that point to say I'm a I'm a
Speaker 2: I'm a sniper, you know, I'm a Canadian sniper. And
Speaker 2: then and then the book it just takes you through
Speaker 2: missions and we're not glorifying them, you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's gritty, it's it's raw. You know, sometimes we win
Speaker 2: and and sometimes we lose and that is that is
Speaker 2: all in the book. You know, those stories are in
Speaker 2: the book. It's not it's just not a glorified version.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's honest, it's true. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think anyone who who reads the book will you know,
Speaker 2: will see that. And there's and there's just you know,
Speaker 2: so many great stories in it, you know. And I'll
Speaker 2: and I'll give a shout out to you know, Yeves Bdard,
Speaker 2: who is another guy who I was on two tours
Speaker 2: with who wrote a chapter in the in the book
Speaker 2: as well, And yeah, yeah, he's b It's just the
Speaker 2: perspectives in the stories in the book are you know.
Speaker 2: I just think they're they're honest, and they're raw, and
Speaker 2: they're I think people will find them really engaging. Yeah.
Speaker 3: The last thing I want to add to this is
Speaker 3: something Barry told me a long time ago that stuck
Speaker 3: in my head. Actually he said Afghanistan didn't define him,
Speaker 3: but it refined him, and.
Speaker 2: Somehow that's always stuck with me.
Speaker 3: It's a great line I want to say about the
Speaker 3: book also that it's kind of a weird book. You know,
Speaker 3: usually sniper books about one guy who does all these
Speaker 3: wonderful things in his mind maybe in reality, but this
Speaker 3: book is sort of part manual, part mental examination, and
Speaker 3: then it's coupled with real world missions and I think
Speaker 3: that's what sets it apart. And it's got different perspectives
Speaker 3: on it. I think in total we had four people
Speaker 3: in there plus me who've contributed in some manner or anything.
Speaker 3: But I think it's very representative of the entire Canadian
Speaker 3: sniping community.
Speaker 2: I think I'm right on that.
Speaker 1: And the book is titled Send It Canada Snipers at
Speaker 1: War in Afghanistan. Guys, where can people find the book?
Speaker 1: When's it coming out?
Speaker 2: The book is out now, Jack and currently it's available
Speaker 2: on Amazon or well basically it's on Amazon right now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and kindall you can get paperback and kindle. So
Speaker 3: I would suggest, of course the book because I'm still
Speaker 3: old fashioned. I'd like to hold things in my hand
Speaker 3: so I know when it's doing well, it's gotten good use.
Speaker 3: And I'm very happy with the book actually, and I'm
Speaker 3: very pleased about the writing gord Berry and Bee had
Speaker 3: done for the book.
Speaker 2: It really makes it unique.
Speaker 3: So anyone who wants to know anything about sniping Canadian
Speaker 3: not otherwise, should really be reading this book.
Speaker 1: When we had when we had once years ago, mirror.
Speaker 1: I remember showing you my Kindle and you were just
Speaker 1: befuddled by this contraption or what what? What is that? Like?
Speaker 1: You read books on this thing? Like what?
Speaker 3: I'm still kind of like that, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: you're only seeing parts of it. But I got something
Speaker 3: like three plus thousand books behind me, and I need
Speaker 3: a ladder to my book. So I love books, but
Speaker 3: it's it's, you know, the future really I think belongs
Speaker 3: to Kindle or Cobo or whatever ife around.
Speaker 1: My personal preference is I like to read novels on
Speaker 1: my Kindle and nonfiction books like send It, I will
Speaker 1: buy and put on my bookshelf's and.
Speaker 3: I should be I should give you a shout out.
Speaker 3: You've got a book, a novel coming out next year.
Speaker 3: Berry is working on a novel. I'm working on a novel.
Speaker 3: So we're all sort of still doing the writing gig.
Speaker 3: Always exciting.
Speaker 1: Great. Well, we'll talk about that's those projects more down
Speaker 1: the line, I'm sure for sure for all of our
Speaker 1: listeners will have links down the description to send it
Speaker 1: where you can go and find it. Do you guys
Speaker 1: have any social media that you want to plug before
Speaker 1: we go.
Speaker 2: I only have a website. Berry also has a website,
Speaker 2: but I think he's on Do you have social media, Berry, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've got at send it book on Instagram. You can
Speaker 2: follow that, and I've got my website barrysenizbit dot com.
Speaker 2: You can also get the book through there. Just there's
Speaker 2: a link on there straight to Amazon.
Speaker 1: Awesome. That sounds great. So thank you both of you
Speaker 1: for joining us tonight, being flexible and hanging with us.
Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. I know our viewers will too, And
Speaker 1: for all of you out there, we'll see you guys
Speaker 1: next time.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Thanks Jack, Thanks d.
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