WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:13.800 Special Operations, cobert Os Spionage. The Team House with your 2 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:15.759 hosts Jack. 3 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:18.000 Murphy and David Bark. 4 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:26.120 Welcome to episode three hundred and seventy three of The 5 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:30.399 Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with tonight's guests, former 6 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:35.039 Canadian sniper Barry Nisbitt and former ranger and co author 7 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:38.520 of the book Mir Bamanyar. They are the author of 8 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:43.000 Send It Canadian Snipers at War in Afghanistan. Thank you 9 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:45.320 both of you, gentlemen, for joining us tonight. 10 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:48.719 You're welcome. Thanks for having us Jack. 11 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:53.640 So maybe we just like kick it off. I mean 12 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:55.679 this is a little unorthodox, but talk a little bit 13 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.880 about how this project came together. How did Mir and 14 00:00:58.920 --> 00:00:59.960 Barry meet each other? 15 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:03.320 All right, I'll take this one Barry, because you know 16 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:05.319 we can't trust you. 17 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:05.799 You're old. 18 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.560 Look this sort of started in twenty ten. I'd written 19 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.200 a seal book with Chris Osmond. I wanted to do 20 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.959 something on snipers and Chris said, there's this great guy 21 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:23.079 in Afghanistan he met called Gordon Cullen, who is instrumental 22 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:27.359 and also writing this book. And through Gordon I met Barry. 23 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:29.359 And that's a long time ago. I think we met 24 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:33.439 ten years ago or something like that, and I went 25 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.879 and interviewed Berry, and you know, on and off, it's 26 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:39.000 taken me a long time to finally get to the book. 27 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:41.599 And I was going to write this whole thing about 28 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.439 Canadian snipers because I now live in Canada and I 29 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.959 thought there were some stories that needed to be told 30 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:50.519 that we haven't heard yet. And to that end, I 31 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.439 got permission from the Green Machine of Canada's forces that 32 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.599 I could participate in two weeks at a sniper call 33 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:02.760 it boot camp whatever, training course with the RCR, which 34 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:05.159 the Royal Canadian Regiment. So I spent two weeks with 35 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.840 those guys and I interviewed some of them, and I 36 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.719 was going to write the book, but I recognized almost 37 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.479 immediately that I'm just an idiot. There's no way I 38 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:17.840 could write a book about something like sniping. It was 39 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:20.960 really just so complex, at least to me it was. 40 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.680 So I asked Gordon if he'd be interested in helping 41 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.560 me on that, and he also introduced me to Berry 42 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:29.360 at the time. So I met with Berry a bunch 43 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.159 of times, went to his house and looked at a 44 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.199 lot of things. We talked a lot. He showed me 45 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.400 a lot of the video footage, and eventually I just 46 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.039 made the decision. I don't even remember how long ago 47 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.520 that was, but a few years back, I said, you know, 48 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:44.560 do you guys want to just write this book and 49 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.800 I'll write one or two chapters, but it's really your story. 50 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:48.879 You guys should write it. 51 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.199 And do justice to what took you, you know, to 52 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.039 how to actually get to the point where you became 53 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:00.520 combat efficient and very good at your job at you know, 54 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.520 snipers school and all the other experiences they had. 55 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:05.360 For me. 56 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:08.039 They sa and we reached out to a number of 57 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:12.680 others uh snipers. Many of them were excited at the beginning, 58 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:19.280 but not participating. Barry and another guy, a couple other 59 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.960 guys chap So that's how I met Barry through this 60 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:24.759 process and we've become good friends. 61 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.360 You know, something I wanted to mention too from the 62 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.479 onset is that, and I'm dating myself a little bit here, 63 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.960 but when I went through Snipers School many years ago, 64 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.759 all the instructors all told us how great the Canadian 65 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.240 snipers are, like I'm not blowing smoke, like and I 66 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.719 heard that throughout my career in the army. People speak 67 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:48.919 very highly about the Canadian snipers. And Barry, I was 68 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:50.599 wondering if you could tell us a little bit about 69 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.360 you know, why do you think the Canadian snipers are 70 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.960 so well regarded and what is it about the Canadian 71 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.639 military that has led them to create this program that 72 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.360 seems to work very well for. 73 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:07.919 Them, Jack, I think it's it's a combination of a 74 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.039 lot of things. We're a small military, so we do 75 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.400 a lot of cross training and we have a really 76 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.480 good base of infantry skills before we even even think 77 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:26.560 about getting onto a sniper course. You know, I was 78 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.839 you know, nine eight years in the military before I 79 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.879 even got an opportunity to go on the course. And 80 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:36.920 you know, at that point, you know, I was a 81 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:42.279 machine guarner, morteman, reconnaissance patrolman. So we just have a 82 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.720 really solid base of basic gift before we can even 83 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:50.240 be looked at to go onto a basic sniper course. 84 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.240 Let's dig a little bit deeper, Barrier, tell us a 85 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.399 little bit about your origin story, about how you joined 86 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.439 the military and why how did all of that come 87 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.279 about for you, Well. 88 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.839 How it came about for me. Yeah, I was I 89 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.879 was twenty, didn't really have a direction and my mom 90 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.519 said to me, why don't you join the military, and 91 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.800 I thought, why don't I join the military. So I 92 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.240 went to recruiting office. I watched some videos. I saw 93 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.639 the guys running around with guns, jumping out of airplanes, 94 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.600 and I said, well, that that's that's what I want 95 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.839 to do. And you know, I signed up for the 96 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.319 infantry and I was told it would be you know, 97 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.199 months until I heard anything. Three weeks later, I got 98 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:42.959 a phone call from a recruiting sergeant that that called 99 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.800 me very early in the morning and said, I hope 100 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:48.040 you like getting up early. You're you're in basic training 101 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.959 in three weeks and off off I went. 102 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.079 And was it you Barry or was it your uh, 103 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:59.959 your buddy Gordon. Well, because I remember it's in the 104 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:04.360 book somewhere one of you is color blind. Yeah, oh 105 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:04.839 that's Gordon. 106 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:05.040 OK. 107 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:08.360 Yeah, so Gord kind of god, kind of tucked under 108 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:13.839 the radar. Is some requirements, but we're all very glad, 109 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.319 very glad he did just because you know, exceptional soldier, 110 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.480 exceptional sniper and instruct. 111 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:24.199 Hey, guys, I want to tell you about the sponsor 112 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.079 for tonight's show, which is true work. They make performance 113 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.480 work where that's built like it matters because it does 114 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.279 in the fall. The weather change is real fast. 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And they also have a line 142 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:00.879 of flannel shirts that I hope you guys will go 143 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.319 and take a look at. So upgrade your day with 144 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.079 workwhere built like it matters. Get fifteen percent off your 145 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:09.040 first order at true work dot com with the code 146 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.279 house that's t r U E W E r K 147 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.759 dot com and the promotion code to get fifteen percent 148 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:22.800 off is house h O U s E. Thanks guys, Erry, 149 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.920 If you could just tell us then about uh, you know, 150 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.199 you joined the military. Tell us about sort of your 151 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:33.039 early military career. You had a series of infantry positions. 152 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:40.600 It sounds like, yeah, absolutely, I I was always I've 153 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:45.080 always been in the first Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment in Patawawa, Ontario. 154 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.559 I'll say my first deployment was to h was the 155 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:52.799 was it would have been to Kosovo, in nineteen ninety nine, 156 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.080 I would have been in a in a section or 157 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:59.759 I guess a squad, and I was just a I 158 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:03.240 was to riflemen. So that was sort of my first 159 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:09.159 first apployment peacekeeping mission into Kosovo, and then you know, 160 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.919 just kind of up through the ranks, you know, you 161 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.200 get a little bit of leadership training. Next deployment was 162 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.720 into Bosnia, where I was a what we would call 163 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.039 Section two. I see, I guess what would that be 164 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:24.360 like in a squad. 165 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.879 Assistant team leader maybe, yeah. 166 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:32.360 Assistant team leader leader, assistant squad leader maybe yeah. 167 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:36.759 Again, you know, just like another peacekeeping tour. And then 168 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.960 a few years later, two thousand and five, I was 169 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.600 in Kabul, Afghanistan. We were what we were doing there 170 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:51.120 was we were doing defense security of a camp and QRF. 171 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.000 So again I was doing you know, Section two. I 172 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.080 see on that, and you know, then that kind of 173 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:03.000 brought me you know that I guess say, you know, 174 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:06.200 you cut your teeth a bit on those tours. You 175 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.200 get a taste, you get exposed to other countries and 176 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.919 other units, and you know, you kind of start to 177 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:14.759 see that there's a there's a lot more in the 178 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.960 military to do. And and that's when I sort of 179 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.799 you know, well, at that point my first turn Afghanista, 180 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.519 I'd already been to ranger school. I went to ranger 181 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:31.000 school in two thousand and three and just progressed, you know, 182 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:36.919 sniper course, oh five, lucky to be in the sniper platoon. 183 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:44.639 Deployed to Afghanistan in O six and that was pretty interesting, 184 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:50.360 pretty interesting tour, kind of first taste of combat, progressed 185 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:56.200 through uh into sniper detachment commander course, Advanced sniper course, 186 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.639 and then final tour was as a sniper detachment commander 187 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.519 in twenty ten back in Afghanistan. 188 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:06.159 So talk to us a little bit about how the 189 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.600 kind of the course works, the training. It sounds like 190 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.320 there's a you mentioned a basic course and an advanced course, 191 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.679 and how does the how does Canadian sniper training structured? 192 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.840 So first to even get onto this, onto the basic 193 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.600 sniper course, I guess it's basically structured in three phases. 194 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.279 You have your basic, you have your sniper detachment commander, 195 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:32.960 and then your your Advanced sniper which would give you 196 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.240 a position to be a unit master sniper. And just 197 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.159 to get on the basic course. When I did it, Prerexit, 198 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:46.279 was you need to have basic comms, communication and reconnaissance patrolmen. So, 199 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.840 like we'd chatted before, like your infantry skills are already 200 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.200 are already pretty up there. We had a pre course 201 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:59.919 of twenty four candidates online that whittled down to eighteen 202 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.360 after a week of you know where they just use 203 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:06.720 to use the ranger school term where they smoked us 204 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:11.799 pretty good. And and then to the course where we 205 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:17.639 graduated three of the eighteen, so a pretty high attrition rate. 206 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.600 Back then with the course. 207 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:29.559 And I mean aside from that, you're learning obviously marksmanships, stocks, 208 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.480 target identification, target distance estimation and all all these kind 209 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:36.559 of foundational sniper skills. 210 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:43.519 Yeah. Absolutely, you know, the course is broken down into 211 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:51.399 different you know, performance checks, judging, distance observation, obviously marksmanship, 212 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:56.679 stalking and and back back then you know five stalking. 213 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.559 The course was very heavily weighted on stalking. That was 214 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.200 that was a real that was a real man eater. 215 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:09.080 That's where we lost so many candidates because it was 216 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.000 just it was just hard. And I think that's that 217 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.039 is something that really sets the Canadian sniper of course, 218 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:23.840 apart from from some other ones, is is just the 219 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:28.919 the level of stalking the skill that you know, we're 220 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:31.840 you're expected to be able to achieve the level you're 221 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.000 expected to be able to achieve, you know, on the 222 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:36.080 Basic Sniper course. 223 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.559 And it's and that's sorry to interrupt Barry. There's a 224 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.799 great chapter Barry actually wrote on stalking which is highly detailed, 225 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:47.080 but it really talks not just about the physical grueling 226 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.080 aspect of it, but also about the emotional mental strength 227 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:54.279 that is required for you to actually complete the stock Sorry, 228 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:55.799 I had to throw that in there. 229 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:59.639 It was a great chapter. Yeah, No, absolutely, and that 230 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.480 is a big that is a big part in the 231 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:07.039 book because it's any sniper, they they're always going to 232 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.240 remember the stocking phase of their course because it's it's 233 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:12.279 just like I think I describe it in the book 234 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.840 as it's like it's it's a man eater and it's 235 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:19.000 a dream it's a dream crusher, because that's that's just 236 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.200 where that's where we lose so many guys because it's 237 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.399 so difficult. It's such a difficult aspect of the course. 238 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.399 And let's talk hardware for a second here. Uh, the 239 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.679 Canadians are known to love their three three eighths. Is 240 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:34.480 that what you learned to fire in the course or 241 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.159 was there a different platform that you guys were taught 242 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:37.799 on initially? 243 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.200 So my core we were using a C three A 244 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:48.200 one with with a Nerdle ten power fixed ten power 245 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:54.000 bullet drop compensator three to eight. It was an old gun. 246 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.559 But she's she fired, she fired straight. 247 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.200 I I was laughing when I read about that in 248 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.480 the book because friends of mine who had gone to 249 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.440 the Marine Corps Scout sniper course used the Inudal scope 250 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.919 and they told me the exact same thing you guys 251 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.519 wrote in the book, that the mill dots are made 252 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:13.919 out of wax or something like this, and they melt 253 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:15.240 off of the crosshairs. 254 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.159 Yeah, you can always say you can tell an old 255 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.919 Canadian sniper and arrange because he'll he'll take his hat 256 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.559 and he'll put it on his scope. Yeah, because the 257 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.480 radical was wire and the mill dots are made of wax. 258 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.879 So you never wanted the scope to heat up because 259 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:31.559 then your mill dots get out of shape and then 260 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.559 you're doing a judging distance po and you know you're 261 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.440 trying to cut that target by a mill dot that 262 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.600 you know should be a mill and maybe now it's 263 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:42.360 one point three or one point two so we've we've 264 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:43.600 definitely advanced from that. 265 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.559 And for the young people out there as civilians who 266 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.039 are not necessarily acquainted, could you describe the two positions 267 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:54.559 on the sniper team, the sniper and spotter for folks 268 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:55.039 out there. 269 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:01.799 Yeah. Absolutely. The way the way we would operate is 270 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.600 the you know, you have you have your shooter, your 271 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.879 primary shooter who will will kind of have all the 272 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.240 primary data, the primary dope dope on the gun, and 273 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:17.000 then you'll have your spotter. The way the way we 274 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.879 would structure it is your your spotter is your more 275 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:25.799 senior guy because spotting is Spotting is more difficult. Spotting 276 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.039 requires more skill. Spotting, Spotting requires more time. And if 277 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:32.600 you've moved into the spotting position, you've you've already had 278 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:37.000 that that time on the gun. And I always describe 279 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:40.480 it to people and they're always in amazement. I always say, well, 280 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.320 you've seen the movie The Matrix, and you see when 281 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.799 Neo's dodging bullets and you can see that shockwave coming 282 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.559 off the bullet. I tell people, well you can see that, 283 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.240 and they're like, you can't see that, and I'm like, yeah, 284 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.720 you could see that, and that's you know, ultimately, why 285 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.519 why we're spotting and why when you're when you're seeing 286 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.480 a sniper team, you know that spotter is so the 287 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.240 spotting scope in line to the shooter with his scope 288 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:09.480 over the barrel, so you're getting that true relation to 289 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.200 when you're seeing that swirl when when you're spotting that 290 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:15.640 round to you know, if you don't get a first 291 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.519 round hit, as Hollywood makes it look like we always 292 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:20.799 get first round hits. But as you know, Jack, that's 293 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.920 that's not always the It doesn't always happen. So you 294 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:26.400 want to have a good spotter who's going to be 295 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.960 able to make that quick, fast correction you know, either 296 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.119 you know a hold off or or you know if 297 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:36.000 you're gonna just windage or whatever. But that's the basics 298 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.279 of how we'll work in a two man team. 299 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.720 The spotter really is like the human calculator that comes 300 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.240 up with the formula and tells the sniper what the 301 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.240 program into the scope. And the sniper really is just 302 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.400 a marksman, real a very good marksman. But all he 303 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.119 has to do is pull the trigger, right, He has 304 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:53.880 an easy job. 305 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.559 Yeah, And I mean we we train and we cross 306 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.880 train so much, and especially before we deploy that you know, 307 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.480 if I have to roll over and get behind, we'll 308 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.599 say the three three eight. You know, you know I 309 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.839 can do it vice versa. You know, he can come 310 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:16.759 over and spot and and again. Like I think, why 311 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:20.359 we are so good or why we're you know, why 312 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.319 we are very good at the job of being a 313 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.039 sniping is that we just have that we have that 314 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:32.200 cross training and we have that confidence to switch out 315 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.759 in a position because you know, if we're going out 316 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:36.599 for two or three days, one guy can't stay on 317 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.960 the gun for all that time. You know, you got 318 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.799 to switch out, and you got to have the confidence 319 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:43.559 and your teammates to be able to to be able 320 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:46.119 to do the job if if you're not the one 321 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:46.599 on the gun. 322 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.400 You know, this is something I've heard, Barry, you can 323 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:51.839 confirm or deny for me if this is true or not. 324 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:54.880 I heard that One of the reasons why the Canadians 325 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.240 are field such good sniper teams is it has to 326 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.720 do with in the Canadian military, those teams can stay 327 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.359 together much longer than they can for instance, in the 328 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.880 American military, where the sniper and spotter have worked together 329 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.039 for years and years. 330 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.400 Definitely, Jack, in my experience, you know, I think that's 331 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:19.319 that's that's pretty true. And I think if you talk 332 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.200 to other Canadians they would say the same. And I 333 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.400 think that's also to the point where we're a small military, 334 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.960 you know, especially compared to the US, you know, and 335 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.480 we try to keep the specialties to where they need 336 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.559 to be. So if a guy, you know, if he 337 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.279 gets into snipers and he's doing well and he's progressing, 338 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.000 then why wouldn't we want to keep him in that position? 339 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.559 And then you know, and like you know, I mean, 340 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.279 you build that confidence with your with your spotter and 341 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.119 vice versa. And the more arranged time you get, you know, 342 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.920 shooting in all the different conditions, different distances and such, 343 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.839 and especially if you get to deploy with with with 344 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.039 that guy and with that team and stay together, it's 345 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.200 just gonna make you it's gonna make you better, it's 346 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:09.319 gonna make you more effective. 347 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.359 Yeah, that's huge to have that kind of rapport between 348 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.839 the sniper and spotter over such a long period. And 349 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:18.000 I know this is jumping a little bit forward in 350 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:20.960 your personal story, but while we're talking about training, i'd 351 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.440 like to bring it up. You mentioned the advanced course. 352 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.279 How does that differ from the basic one? That we've 353 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:27.079 been talking about. 354 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.400 So so the basic I hate to call it basic 355 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.559 because it's anything but basic, but it's you know, you're 356 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:40.720 laying the foundations for everything that's gonna that's gonna propel 357 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:44.960 you forward, you know, as a sniper, whereas the advanced 358 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.519 course is you're you're you're learning the tactical side, the 359 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:58.480 employment of a sniper. Debt about briefing company commanders, about 360 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:05.400 briefing unit commanders on the best way to employ the 361 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.200 best way to employ a sniper debt because we don't 362 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.079 have or or we didn't have we never we didn't 363 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.279 have an officer. So an n c O was an 364 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.160 n c O was it in our In our case, 365 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.000 it was a warrant officer, And you know, he's responsible 366 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.680 to go and potentially brief a lieutenant colonel. And and 367 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:28.240 if we break it down further me as a as 368 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.480 a debt commander with my my dad, if I'm you know, 369 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.799 going to work in a company with an infantry company, 370 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:37.480 then it's going to be a sergeant that's going to 371 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:43.400 be going in briefing a major potentially, So you know, 372 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:48.039 and I think having that n c O knowledge and 373 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.920 and and learning those skills of building your courses of 374 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:54.400 action and being able to to do a brief in 375 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:58.160 front of officers. It's you know, it's just another I 376 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.200 think it's just another skill that you know, Canadians and 377 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.160 snipers that we bring to the table. That's why I 378 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:06.400 throw in something on that. I'm sorry to interrupt, Jack. 379 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:09.240 You know, the interesting thing is having talked to a 380 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.759 bunch of these guys, I was always amazed as to 381 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:16.640 how many officers had no idea how to deploy snipers 382 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.319 in combat zones. How it was up to the ums, 383 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.680 the unit massive sniper or whoever it was, to actually 384 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.720 kind of convince them and brief the officers as to 385 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.599 the best deployment of various detachments across the front or 386 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:31.440 something like that. 387 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.319 That was a huge thing. I was surprised by that. 388 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:36.599 I would have thought by now in the twenty first century, 389 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:39.680 you know, they would know how to employ snipers to 390 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:41.960 the best abilities for everyone involved. 391 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.400 But that wasn't always the case. 392 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.319 I think it's an ongoing issue mirror. I mean, any 393 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:52.440 kind of specialized troops, be they snipers, reconnaissance or even 394 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.759 like mortars. And now today you get into electronic warfare 395 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.960 and drone specialists. You know, if the officers haven't been 396 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.680 brought up on that, on those tactics in their basic course, 397 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.160 then they're not going to know how to employ those 398 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:09.119 troops when they have them, you know, as a resource. 399 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:15.599 Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think I think too. 400 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.319 I mean as a if I'm a decmmander and I'm 401 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.319