Speaker 1: It's the Opperman Report, and now here is an investigator
Speaker 1: at Opperman.
Speaker 2: Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
Speaker 2: investigator Ed Opperman. You can get a hold of me
Speaker 2: at Opperman Investigations and Digital Forensic Consulting if you reach
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Speaker 2: to Spotify or Apple Plays or Spreaker and sign up
Speaker 2: there for free, I play repeats every single day of
Speaker 2: the week to all the old classic stuff that people
Speaker 2: seem to love. A lot of people haven't even heard
Speaker 2: of it, so hearing it for the first time and
Speaker 2: speaking of repeats, our guest today, Rob Mackenzie's been on before.
Speaker 2: If you search Rob McKenzie El goldbe Us Labor, the
Speaker 2: CIA and the Coup at Ford in Mexico. But he's back.
Speaker 2: He's got a brand new book out, and there's a
Speaker 2: book two about that too called El goldpe Us Labor,
Speaker 2: the Cia and the Core at Ford in Mexico. But
Speaker 2: we got the first interview, then you got the book
Speaker 2: you can buy, and then he's got a brand new
Speaker 2: book called The Assassination of Walter Ruther, Why they did
Speaker 2: it and how we know Rob mackenzie. You could find
Speaker 2: him at Rob McKenzie dot net and also at Rob
Speaker 2: McKenzie at Facebook. Mister mackenzie, are you there?
Speaker 1: Yes, I am ed. Thanks for having me on again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right. My interest are getting longer and longer.
Speaker 2: It's almost as long as you've been away. But remind
Speaker 2: the audience anybody's been asleep. Who is Rob mackenzie.
Speaker 1: Rob McKenzie worked in a Ford assembly plant for twenty
Speaker 1: eight years, and the last eight years i there, I
Speaker 1: was president of the local union. And when Ford announced
Speaker 1: their closing the plan, I took a job on the
Speaker 1: international staff of the United Automobile Workers Union. Did that
Speaker 1: for ten years, and when I retired, I started a
Speaker 1: research project about attack on workers at a Ford plant
Speaker 1: in Mexico that resulted in the first book, which you mentioned,
Speaker 1: and that one led me to the second book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Once again, that first book is El golpe Us Labor,
Speaker 2: the CIA and the Coup at Ford in Mexico, and
Speaker 2: then in parentheses Wildcat. But also to check out the
Speaker 2: first interview too, because a lot of great content in
Speaker 2: that interview, which is why I'm so excited to have
Speaker 2: you back now about the second book here, which is
Speaker 2: a I never heard of this guy, Walter Ruther, So
Speaker 2: what's who was Walter Ruther.
Speaker 1: Walter Ruther was the first president and one of the
Speaker 1: founders of the United Automobile Workers Union, and that emerged
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties with some famous labor events the
Speaker 1: Flint set downstrike and other really violent conflicts with the
Speaker 1: auto employers, and he served as president. He was elected
Speaker 1: president in nineteen forty six and he served till nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy and his mysterious death in a plane crash. And
Speaker 1: he was allies and friends with the Kennedys, with Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King, a very progressive labor leader who brought the
Speaker 1: American autoworkers into the middle class. So he was really
Speaker 1: a famous figure in labor history.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you go to the COVID action article is
Speaker 2: right here, November third elections are a hoax, us out
Speaker 2: of Southeast Asia, no negotiations, cops out of the ghetto,
Speaker 2: support striking auto workers.
Speaker 1: So that was the SDS. He provided the first meeting
Speaker 1: spot for the SDS in Michigan where they had their
Speaker 1: founding convention. So that flyer was something that SDS had
Speaker 1: put out about that time.
Speaker 2: Do we have any labor organizations today that far left,
Speaker 2: that that progressive, that of that workers for workers.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a few, you know, at the times
Speaker 1: are different. I mean, the nineteen thirties was really a
Speaker 1: time of upheaval, and even the more conservative unions then
Speaker 1: are more liberal than many unions are today and more activists.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's some great labor people in the country,
Speaker 1: though overall, I'd say there's nobody that compares to him.
Speaker 1: And actually he split with the mainstream of American labor
Speaker 1: with George meaning the AFL CIA CIO in nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 1: He over the issue of involvement with the CIA, he
Speaker 1: split and formed a rival labor federation called the Alliance
Speaker 1: for Labor Action in nineteen sixty eight, And.
Speaker 2: Was it theft loss of the labor movement, the labor unions.
Speaker 2: Is that because of these assassinations.
Speaker 1: Well, now that's a good question. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of factors that contribute to the decline
Speaker 1: of the American labor movement. Now, the loss of Walter
Speaker 1: Ruther was an important one. He had decided that the
Speaker 1: organized labor had begun to decline in the nineteen sixties
Speaker 1: and was looking for ways to move the fight for
Speaker 1: social justice forward. And one of those was this Alliance
Speaker 1: for Labor Action, which he was going to have the
Speaker 1: traditional unions and something he called community unions, which we're
Speaker 1: going to be organized in cities and towns of workers
Speaker 1: and poor people and include them in the labor movement.
Speaker 1: So that was really the kind of thinking we needed
Speaker 1: to preserve the labor movement, and with his death that
Speaker 1: really disappeared.
Speaker 2: It just seems such a like a no brainer, you know,
Speaker 2: and organize all the workers, you know, not just the
Speaker 2: auto workers are yeah, factory all the yeah. But and
Speaker 2: then you're you're there. You're in the think of it, man,
Speaker 2: you're in the trenches. You know, is there any hope
Speaker 2: for us to to.
Speaker 1: Well, there's always hope. It looks pretty dire right now
Speaker 1: with the Fifth Circuit Court has found the National Labor
Speaker 1: Relations Board to be unconstitutional. So in Texas, Lunisiana, and Mississippi,
Speaker 1: the National Labor Relations Board and the Nationalbor Relations Act
Speaker 1: is unenforceable and these and that's going to the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court late this year or early next year. You know,
Speaker 1: if they rule in favor of the Fifth Circuit Court,
Speaker 1: that is the law that all unions are built on.
Speaker 1: So what happens in that scenario. Nothing good. That could
Speaker 1: be the end. So it's precarious suation for organized.
Speaker 2: Labor right now. And just imagine we hold all the power,
Speaker 2: the workers hold all the power. Okay, So back to Ruther,
Speaker 2: Walter Ruther. So now you're convinced that this was an
Speaker 2: assassination and by who was behind the assassination?
Speaker 1: Well, you know the fact that this was assassination, I
Speaker 1: believe is completely based on evidence. Now, now, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember you put me in touch with
Speaker 1: aj Weberman. Oh sure, he in the nineteen nineties did
Speaker 1: research on the ultimeter that was involved in the Ruther crash.
Speaker 1: And he turned over all his files to me, a
Speaker 1: sixty one page report on the ultimeter beyond a shadow
Speaker 1: of a doubt that had been sabotaged, so it read
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty feet too high. Now, I donated
Speaker 1: those documents he gave me to the University of Michigan's
Speaker 1: archives and they are now. So, yeah, the altimeter was sabotage,
Speaker 1: six wrong missing and missus symbol parts. The threads of
Speaker 1: the screws were torn out, and the manufacturer said, this
Speaker 1: is reading two hundred and fifty feet too high. At
Speaker 1: the time of this crash, so his private jet was
Speaker 1: directed to a little runway that didn't have approach lights,
Speaker 1: the only one at this airport that didn't have approach lights.
Speaker 1: It was night, it was dark, and that pilot had
Speaker 1: to rely on that altimeter to land, and of course
Speaker 1: he hit the top of some trees and the plane crash,
Speaker 1: killing everybody on board.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're saying that first they put in a
Speaker 2: dummied up altimeter onto the plane, then they diverted him
Speaker 2: to an airstrip that didn't have lights.
Speaker 1: So right, exactly, so there was a question about how
Speaker 1: could they have intalved this. His flight. He left from
Speaker 1: Detroit Metro Airport. It was supposed to leave at seven
Speaker 1: point thirty. It was delay for an hour and twenty
Speaker 1: minutes because one of the passengers, an architect named Oscar Stonerov,
Speaker 1: his flight was delayed from Philadelphia, so that jet sat
Speaker 1: there in the runway unguarded for an hour. So no
Speaker 1: question in my mind that altimeter was put that sabotage
Speaker 1: altimeter was put in a flight and the plane just
Speaker 1: before the flight to Pelston Airport.
Speaker 2: Oh really, now, isn't there a record of repairs and
Speaker 2: stuff like that? That has to be documentation, right of.
Speaker 1: Course, And there was a maintenance log. The maintenance log
Speaker 1: had a serial number on the altimeter that put in
Speaker 1: there six months before. So if you're going to say
Speaker 1: this was an accident, you have to explain how this
Speaker 1: altimeter with six wrong missing and missassembled parts, with the
Speaker 1: threads stripped out from the school hole, breathing two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty feet too high, had been in that plane
Speaker 1: for six months without a problem, and then as soon
Speaker 1: as it got to Pelston Airport had started reading two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty feet too high. Number two is that
Speaker 1: altimeter which according to the maintenance log was in that plane.
Speaker 1: It had a serial number SN seventy eight. The manufacturer's
Speaker 1: examination of the ultimeter in the crash said there were
Speaker 1: no identifying marks, no serial numbers on the ultimeter in
Speaker 1: the crash. Also, that altimeter had been manufactured for the
Speaker 1: military and it had never been approved to use in
Speaker 1: civilian aviation.
Speaker 2: That's interesting now, So then who would have the ability
Speaker 2: to pull off an operation like that.
Speaker 1: Well, that's seriously, it would be very complicated. It had
Speaker 1: to be the CIA to do that level of engineering
Speaker 1: on an ultimeter, very sophisticated work. He also had motive.
Speaker 1: The CIA had motive because Ruther was involved in this
Speaker 1: fight in the afl CIO over its involvement with the CIA.
Speaker 1: That was a big issue, and the Ruthers left the
Speaker 1: afl CIO over and they weren't afraid to say why.
Speaker 1: They were talking about CIA involvement and labor. So there's
Speaker 1: a motive. They had an air base, a secret airbase
Speaker 1: in the US which has just come out in the
Speaker 1: last ten years or so. At this a Nevada test
Speaker 1: range the area of fifty one that was a secret
Speaker 1: CIA air base where they were flying the U two
Speaker 1: out of among other things. And the book about that says, oh,
Speaker 1: they were doing all sorts of black ops.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 1: There were not eveny roads going into that airport. The
Speaker 1: engineers were flown in every week and then flown home
Speaker 1: on the weekends. So they had a method, they had
Speaker 1: the means, and they had an opportunity. Now, I you know,
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of what an individual was working on this,
Speaker 1: but I have theory, and I said, this is speculative
Speaker 1: that this is who I think was involved. This was
Speaker 1: a guy named John Leir, who was the son of
Speaker 1: the manufacturer of the jet. They were in Bill la
Speaker 1: out of here.
Speaker 2: I know John lear He's dead now. I knew John
Speaker 2: him a couple of times from Nevada. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He worked for the CIA between nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 1: and nineteen eighty three. He flew for the CIA and
Speaker 1: via Team Laos during the Vietnam War, and he was
Speaker 1: involved in a lot of this UFO stuff around Area
Speaker 1: fifty one after she supposedly had retired from the CIA.
Speaker 1: So and he had far right wing politics. I don't
Speaker 1: know what in case you ran in, but he was
Speaker 1: in something called the Dark Side movement, which said aliens
Speaker 1: are working with the government, and a lot of this
Speaker 1: kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of his alien stuff he just got
Speaker 2: off the enginet and he would believe it and repeat it.
Speaker 2: A lot of his stuff that he got was just
Speaker 2: a kind of flaky. And and then he had some
Speaker 2: kind of gold mine in Nevada and his wife ran
Speaker 2: a colazing here some a talent agency for little kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was really wha yeah.
Speaker 1: You're yeah, that's that was in Las Vegas, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what he was like done in Boulder, Boulder
Speaker 2: City I think area. Yeah, okay, yeah, very strange, yeah guy, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: And what makes you think that he was connected to this?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there can't be, because this is somebody
Speaker 1: who knew exactly how a commercial private jet would respond
Speaker 1: to the conditions when they would rely on their altimeter,
Speaker 1: How how they would do that, How you would get
Speaker 1: an altimeter into a plane. It's not that hard, right
Speaker 1: he Really you had to have somebody who was very
Speaker 1: familiarlier with commercial aviation, and someone who's willing to kill
Speaker 1: innocent people. Because there were six people on the plane,
Speaker 1: so even if you wanted to kill Luthor, five other
Speaker 1: people died. So I just never thought it could possibly
Speaker 1: be you know, some Air Force pilot they pulled out
Speaker 1: of the ranks. I mean, this had to be someone
Speaker 1: he was probably many people recognize John Lear as the
Speaker 1: greatest commercial air pilot of all time. He held all
Speaker 1: sorts of records and commercial jets, so he really knew
Speaker 1: his business. So again, there's no evidence connecting him. But
Speaker 1: you know, when you're talking about this kind of thing,
Speaker 1: people just don't want you to say, well, the CIA
Speaker 1: did it. So I really made an effort with him
Speaker 1: and some other people who I believe could have been
Speaker 1: involved in this. But again it's speculative.
Speaker 2: Yeah you're sure, but you're in research into Leird because
Speaker 2: there was some speculation he was involved with the October
Speaker 2: Surprise flying those people around too. Anything drop across the
Speaker 2: desk on that that.
Speaker 1: Well I first first heard his name was on this
Speaker 1: Octopus murders. Oh really, Well it wasn't him, but it
Speaker 1: was a podcast that guy did, I think with Moraley
Speaker 1: on JFA JFK Fax and he talked about the film
Speaker 1: they showed of the JFK assassination, which showed some bizarre
Speaker 1: and strange things. He said, And you mentioned, well, John
Speaker 1: Leir was involved with that film. Said John leear who
Speaker 1: is this? And then I began looking into him. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's got quite a murky past.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he was involved in a flying around the
Speaker 2: rock stars and all kind of you know stuff. But
Speaker 2: also you know, you know, talk about the Octopus murders.
Speaker 2: I have three hours exclusive with Bill Hamilton, the president
Speaker 2: of Inslaw, who wrote the promised software. The guy at
Speaker 2: the center of the whole story, the one that they
Speaker 2: smeared on Netflix. They did a smear job on this
Speaker 2: guy on Netflix. Oh, it's just outrageous and how people
Speaker 2: can can admire that documentary. Just I know he was
Speaker 2: so upset about it and his wife, But that's fasting.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: There was another story there.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's they were trying to claim
Speaker 2: that the some craziness that he was. They were getting
Speaker 2: their information from people at a bowling alley, you know,
Speaker 2: with this guy, I have yeah, I remember, yeah, I've
Speaker 2: seen communication with him and the director of the CIA.
Speaker 2: The guy was ansa himself, but he had communication with
Speaker 2: the director of the CIA. The guy was in touch
Speaker 2: with There's a letter with Joe Biden. Have an exclusive
Speaker 2: letter here from Joe Biden putting the kibosh on a
Speaker 2: Judiciary committee investigations, all that stuff. There's a ton of
Speaker 2: information with Bill Hamilton. I gotta put her up there.
Speaker 2: It's okay, So back to Ruther. I tell you. It's like,
Speaker 2: oh home, we here got aj Werman popping out of
Speaker 2: the woods. You got John Lear, and now you got
Speaker 2: Bill Hamilton. Look at this. We did a whole nother
Speaker 2: part two on this covert action. The covert actions called
Speaker 2: labor leader Walter Ruther, who was among nineteen sixties liberal
Speaker 2: leaders who appear to have been assassinated by the deep state.
Speaker 2: But you don't have anything firm that the Lear had
Speaker 2: access to this was he in town that.
Speaker 1: Well no, but you know, in a deposition and a trial,
Speaker 1: he said he worked for the CIA from nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: seven to nineteen eighty three, so exactly, yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: by his own account, he's working for the CIA for
Speaker 1: at least that long. And of course it's very murky
Speaker 1: trying to trace his life. I mean, even in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy I can't even figure who he was working for.
Speaker 1: His father fired him and disinherited him in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: I believe, or seventy one, which was the same year
Speaker 1: that Ruther was killed. And his father of course was
Speaker 1: involved in the lawsuits around the Ruther death because it
Speaker 1: was a Lyric jet and he has access to all
Speaker 1: these documents that I have that were suppressed after that.
Speaker 1: But he would have known what had happened. In any case,
Speaker 1: John was disinherited.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was some murkiness about that. So because
Speaker 2: there was some kind of a story too, he was
Speaker 2: getting money from his mother. They somehow it is funny
Speaker 2: because they had a very nice lifestyle in Veda, he
Speaker 2: and the wife doing and some gold mine. You know,
Speaker 2: who knows what was going on there. Okay, So back
Speaker 2: to Ruther though, Okay, now then even any besides all
Speaker 2: its okay, the swapping out of the altimeter, the swapping
Speaker 2: out of the airstrip, anything else really suspicious in all this?
Speaker 1: Well, first I want to mention besides, because of the
Speaker 1: Weberman documents that were turned over, I was able to
Speaker 1: track down a private investigator who had worked with Ruther's
Speaker 1: daughter Elizabeth in the nineteen ninety She didn't have any money,
Speaker 1: He did some pro bona work. He told me there
Speaker 1: had been a civil suit, okay, turning this and he
Speaker 1: hadn't been able to get the documents, they wouldn't give
Speaker 1: him up to him. I got those documents, twelve hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty six pages. Again, they very much affirm that
Speaker 1: this was an assassination. Now, the NTSB, who was the
Speaker 1: only one who ever did any kind of investigation eight
Speaker 1: months after the crash, was prohibited from investigating sabotage. Their
Speaker 1: field agent says, well, no, we don't do that. That's
Speaker 1: the FBI's job. And of course the FBI didn't do
Speaker 1: an investigation, and so that leads us to the FBI
Speaker 1: documents concerning Walter Ruther. I was able to get a
Speaker 1: hold of a reporter for Detroit Public Television who spent
Speaker 1: two years in the nineteen eighties doing a Freedom of
Speaker 1: Information Act request with the FBI and Ruther. And he
Speaker 1: said he told me he called them every week for
Speaker 1: two years. They finally admitted to having eighty four hundred
Speaker 1: pages of documents. Now most of those are withheld or redacted,
Speaker 1: but he gave what he got to the Ruther Library
Speaker 1: in Detroit. So I've been working with They've documents from
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven to nineteen seventy, and I've done freedom
Speaker 1: of information Act requests with the FBI trying to get
Speaker 1: reactions removed from documents that the field office in Detroit
Speaker 1: was notified that there was a contract on Ruther in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. They've got the name of the person
Speaker 1: who allegedly had this contract that is redacted. They will
Speaker 1: not remove that. I've spent years trying to get them
Speaker 1: to do that. They did a background check on this
Speaker 1: person called an LHM letterhead memo. They will not release that.
Speaker 1: That is still classified. They also know, we've learned just
Speaker 1: this year when Trump released the JFA JFK files, that
Speaker 1: the FBI and the sixties turned over the authority to
Speaker 1: redact their own documents to the CIA, and they use
Speaker 1: the words referred to another government agency written by the
Speaker 1: reaction in the nineteen sixty seven the nineteen seventy folder
Speaker 1: I have on there are seventeen pages of reactions that
Speaker 1: we say refer to another government agency. These are CIA reactions.
Speaker 1: We know now. I printed one of those in the book,
Speaker 1: one of those with that reaction on it that they
Speaker 1: would release to me. So there's a whole world of
Speaker 1: information about what the CIA was thinking and saying about
Speaker 1: Walter Ruther. That the FBI is holding So after all
Speaker 1: these years, an airplane supposed accident concerning a labor leader,
Speaker 1: and they've got all this stuff still reacted, and they've
Speaker 1: lied to me a couple of times. And that's one thing.
Speaker 1: This reporter named Bill Gallagher for the public television there
Speaker 1: he said the FBI lies, and I say, they certainly
Speaker 1: have lied to me concerning this.
Speaker 2: Couple of thanks. Now, first of all, the civil suit,
Speaker 2: what's the status of that?
Speaker 1: That was settled? Well, so that's a long story too.
Speaker 1: So I've worked very closely with Ruther's family, his daughter,
Speaker 1: but mostly his son in law, a guy named Bruce
Speaker 1: dick Meyer, has worked very closely with this on me.
Speaker 1: So it was settled in nineteen seventy five. Elizabeth did
Speaker 1: not remember the suit because she was not involved in
Speaker 1: their will. The Ruthers, her father and mother had assigned
Speaker 1: a UW official named Irving Bluestone to be the head
Speaker 1: of the estate, so he was the one that filed
Speaker 1: the suit. The suit was against the airport, so that
Speaker 1: was settled and she got six thousand dollars. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's just devastating material on what had happened there. I mean,
Speaker 1: they interviewed. They deposed the airport manager and he had
Speaker 1: a fifty page deposition. Well he wasn't there a very
Speaker 1: tiny little airport. He lived nearby. There was only one
Speaker 1: person at the airport that night, guy named Thomas Or,
Speaker 1: who directed the flight to land at this sad little
Speaker 1: runway approached, the only one that didn't have lights. When
Speaker 1: they crashed, he called somebody else besides the airport manager.
Speaker 1: The airport manager was in charge of the fire truck,
Speaker 1: so when he finally learned about it, he got the
Speaker 1: fire truck. But they've been given the wrong directions to
Speaker 1: where the crash was, and the whole thing burned out
Speaker 1: before they could get to it. The sole employee there
Speaker 1: that night turned on a recording device only used in emergencies.
Speaker 1: Now there was no emergency at the time. He turned
Speaker 1: it on and he stepped outside to watch it land,
Speaker 1: which the airport manager said he had never seen him
Speaker 1: do that before. Highly suspicious behavior at the airport that night.
Speaker 1: So you know it was recorded. But you know, so
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people tried to say, well,
Speaker 1: they are the pilot decided to land at that runway
Speaker 1: because of the wind. Totally untrue. It was recorded he
Speaker 1: never had any choice but to land there because those
Speaker 1: are the only lights that were on. So he circled
Speaker 1: around to approach that runway. So these court documents really
Speaker 1: add a lot. Now. The field agent from the NTSB
Speaker 1: who did the investigation the altimeter, he came there the
Speaker 1: next morning, could see the top of the trees were
Speaker 1: equipped and said, well, this is probably an altimeter problem.
Speaker 1: Either a pilot read it wrong or it wasn't working.
Speaker 1: Waded into the warm and still smoldering rubble and pulled
Speaker 1: out the captain's aultimeter and took it around. He had
Speaker 1: a three hundred and fifty page deposition about that altimeter. Again,
Speaker 1: some of it was using the NTSB report, some of
Speaker 1: it was suppressed.
Speaker 2: The you gotta love it. Then his aj comes along
Speaker 2: and that does his research and comes up with everything. Now,
Speaker 2: a couple of things. What about wouldn't it be like
Speaker 2: the UA to w weren't they looking up in arms
Speaker 2: and saying, hey, let's investigate this scream into high heaven
Speaker 2: that hey, boss just got killed.
Speaker 1: Very good question, and I think that's what killed it.
Speaker 1: So it took that NTSB agent two weeks before he
Speaker 1: got the report from the manufacturer full of this damning
Speaker 1: information about the ultimeter. That same day the UAW General Council,
Speaker 1: a guy named Stephen Schlashberg wrote a memo to the
Speaker 1: guy who'd taken over Ruther after a bitter internal power fight,
Speaker 1: and said, listen, this is nothing but a tragic accident.
Speaker 1: There were no problems with the ultimeter. There's no you know,
Speaker 1: basically discounting sabotage.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: I found that memo and no one has seen that
Speaker 1: before either. I got that as a result of these
Speaker 1: Webermen files. So he convinced Woodcock there was nothing and said,
Speaker 1: don't you know, you shouldn't support a public inquest. There
Speaker 1: was a lot of talk about having a public inquest
Speaker 1: into that. Leonard Woodkeck, the new president, did not support
Speaker 1: the inquest, and that was probably the only chance to
Speaker 1: get a real independent investigation of what happened here. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the UAW has a very bad history with this. It's
Speaker 1: hard for me after they they must they had to
Speaker 1: have seen all the documents. I have the court documents,
Speaker 1: the ultimeter report, and they never raised any questions. You know,
Speaker 1: Slashburg I think was at least a government intelligence asset.
Speaker 1: He became a under secretary of labor in the Reagan administration,
Speaker 1: so you know, he had a very crooked path after
Speaker 1: he left the UAW. But yeah, I think that the
Speaker 1: UAW not raising any flags about this really did a
Speaker 1: lot of damage to any hopes of a true investigation.
Speaker 2: And then after the death of Ruth, did the UAW
Speaker 2: change their politics and their policy? Did they go in
Speaker 2: a different direction?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they did. The other thing I used
Speaker 1: as a source a lot was oral interviews with Paul Schraid.
Speaker 1: Some people may recognize his name. He was standing next
Speaker 1: to RFK when he was shot killed in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Trade got hit by a bullet in that attack. So
Speaker 1: he says they drove him out of the union. As
Speaker 1: soon as Ruther died, they forced him out and he
Speaker 1: and according to him, there was a big change in
Speaker 1: the way the UAW operated, you know, they said, I mean,
Speaker 1: Ruth probably had his faults as an autocrat, but he
Speaker 1: really stayed in close contact with the rank and file
Speaker 1: and local leaders and you know, never went for the
Speaker 1: big salaries. And yeah, I think there was a real
Speaker 1: change after Ruther's death in the uaw's practice and culture.
Speaker 2: Now what about reading in the article, I see James
Speaker 2: Angleton's name comes up. What house did he connected to
Speaker 2: all lists?
Speaker 1: Well, you know again a lot. You know. Yet, there's
Speaker 1: a guy named Jay Lovestone who was a he'd been
Speaker 1: the General secretary of the American Communist Party in the
Speaker 1: late twenties. Stalin removed him and he began by the
Speaker 1: end of the thirties. He was a bitter anti communist,
Speaker 1: and he worked with the first president of the UAW
Speaker 1: to try to drive all the communists out of UAW.
Speaker 1: And the ruther wasn't the communists. He was working with
Speaker 1: the communists and supported supported their rights to hold office
Speaker 1: and function in the Union. So and Lovestone was the
Speaker 1: one who was working with this UAW president and directing him.
Speaker 1: Lovestone went on to become the international Affairs director of
Speaker 1: the AFL CIO, and the Ruthers fought with him constantly
Speaker 1: over that. There's I go into that and in some
Speaker 1: detail in the book now and this has just come
Speaker 1: out recently few years. Lovestone was recruited into the CIA
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five by Angleton, and Lovestone's biographer said
Speaker 1: they had they were in daily communication for twenty years.
Speaker 1: Lovestone in Angleton and when he was in Washington, Lovestone
Speaker 1: State in Angleton's home, so they had a very close
Speaker 1: relationship and they were absolute enemies of Lovestone was absolute
Speaker 1: enemy with Ruther and Angleton was involved in this whole
Speaker 1: labor fight over the CIA involvement in organized labor. So
Speaker 1: that again points to me that somebody who could had
Speaker 1: the ability to stage a complex assassination and a motive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've flowing through the scrolling through the article here.
Speaker 2: Now what about the pilot? Did did his family sue
Speaker 2: as well? Was there a civil suit for the pilot? I?
Speaker 1: You know, the only any other suits I found mentioned
Speaker 1: were the architect Oscar Stonerov's. There were six suits filed
Speaker 1: in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. I'm assuming that was
Speaker 1: by his wife, Betty Stonorov. I didn't I didn't try
Speaker 1: to track all those down and read those. I think
Speaker 1: I know who the six people she would have suit
Speaker 1: would have been, But those are still there if somebody
Speaker 1: wants to research this further. Now, I did get in
Speaker 1: touch with Stonhov's one of his daughters, Angie Foster Stonorov,
Speaker 1: who you know, worked very closely with me about talking
Speaker 1: about the relationship and the family. This is very hard
Speaker 1: on her and Elizabeth Ruth. They're about the same age
Speaker 1: in the early twenties when this happened, and they became
Speaker 1: very close. But I never heard about a suit from
Speaker 1: the pilot or the co pilot. But there are six
Speaker 1: suits sitting out there that I didn't get.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, And this happened after the death of MLK
Speaker 2: and after the death RFKR.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting timeline here which really raised my ackles
Speaker 1: when I saw that nineteen sixty eight, LBJ wants to
Speaker 1: run for president. He goes to the UAW and asks
Speaker 1: for an endorsement. They had a contentious two day board
Speaker 1: meeting about endorsing LBJ. Ruther actually had a relationship with
Speaker 1: LBJ and supported LBJ. Shrede was more than new left
Speaker 1: type candidate, and the UAW fought for RFK and they
Speaker 1: fought to a sand still finally Sharede got the votes
Speaker 1: for no endorsement, which meant that everybody could just go
Speaker 1: out and endorse whoever they wanted, all the board members.
Speaker 1: Ten days after that, LBJ withdrew from the race. Four
Speaker 1: days after that, Martin Luther King was assassinated. A month later,
Speaker 1: RFK was assassinated. October that year was the first crash
Speaker 1: the Ruthers were in and a lear jet involving a
Speaker 1: failed altimeter. It was a Dulles airport in October of
Speaker 1: sixty eight. They survived it.
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, okay, well now wait a second, and
Speaker 2: now you got it was an alternative in that one too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, yeah, Victor Ruther was on that
Speaker 1: plane too and talked about that wreck in his autobiography.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, it's again people say I'm being speculative.
Speaker 1: If you're going to say this in an accident, that
Speaker 1: is what's speculative. If you look at this closely, it's
Speaker 1: obviously an assassination.
Speaker 2: No, man, you're doing great work. They really are. Rob
Speaker 2: McKenzie dot net you can find on Facebook. And the
Speaker 2: two books are one is the one we're talking about
Speaker 2: right now, is the assassination of Walter Ruther, Why they
Speaker 2: did it and how we know? And then the first
Speaker 2: one was Algulp a US labor, the CIA and the
Speaker 2: cou at Ford in Mexico. But let me ask you,
Speaker 2: Rob McKenzie, you're doing all this work. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of work. Man, who's funding this? How are you financing
Speaker 2: all this? It's a lot of work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm retired, so I have the time.
Speaker 1: But after the last book, it took so much. You know,
Speaker 1: this is it was a big money losing project the
Speaker 1: first book, because you know, I wanted to get an
Speaker 1: insurance policy and I didn't. You know, I never thought
Speaker 1: i'd make money. I didn't want to get sued and
Speaker 1: go bankrupt. I told my wife, I will never write
Speaker 1: another book. I promise I will never write another book.
Speaker 1: And I probably After I got these court documents and
Speaker 1: the altimeter report and the FBI filed, I spent eight
Speaker 1: months trying to find someone else to write the book.
Speaker 1: I had one publisher who kind of it was interested in.
Speaker 1: I said, listen, you get somebody to go to write it,
Speaker 1: they can have all the royalties. They couldn't find anybody,
Speaker 1: so I reluctantly wrote this book. I mean I actually
Speaker 1: wrote a article for a journal, academic journal, and they
Speaker 1: approved it. They said this is too long. You need
Speaker 1: to expand this into a book, and just really coached
Speaker 1: me and urged me, and I finally wrote it. It's
Speaker 1: a very short book for people who don't want to
Speaker 1: read a long book. A lot of pictures of the damage,
Speaker 1: altimeter parts and the Ruthers and very easy read. And
Speaker 1: this is my last book. I promise I'm never going
Speaker 1: to write another book.
Speaker 2: Well. Well, the thing is, though, is in my audience
Speaker 2: buys books, you know, and when you got someone like
Speaker 2: this who's sticking their neck out, and you got any
Speaker 2: Arizona missions insures almost kind of stufs so cheap, you know,
Speaker 2: you got to protect your home, you know, all this
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, your pension. Uh, you got to go out, audience,
Speaker 2: You got to go out and buy these books, man,
Speaker 2: in order to support people out there sticking their necks
Speaker 2: out at Elkolpe, the US Labor, the CIA, and ford
Speaker 2: it in in Mexico. And there's an whole interview about that.
Speaker 2: And in this one here is the assassination of Walter Ruther.
Speaker 2: Why they did it and how we know? So you
Speaker 2: got to get out there and buy these books now.
Speaker 2: And you see Amazon like the oppera import, Amazon like
Speaker 2: a little cut too, okay, But other why didn't Aj write?
Speaker 2: If AJ did all this work on it, he never
Speaker 2: wrote a book? Who Aj Webman? He never wrote a
Speaker 2: book on it?
Speaker 1: Oh? Oh Weberman, yeah, oh yeah, you know he wrote
Speaker 1: this is the early nineties. He wrote a long article
Speaker 1: about three different altimeters involved in crash. Now I don't
Speaker 1: want to take on more. He couldn't get published, you know,
Speaker 1: this was the days before the Internet was widely used.
Speaker 1: He couldn't get published. And just by a freak accident
Speaker 1: for some reason, one of these altimeters, there was a
Speaker 1: flight that Joe Biden was in. Slate published his article
Speaker 1: about that without even telling him. He hadn't known it had
Speaker 1: been published. That's where I first saw the A. J.
Speaker 1: Weberman and this information about the altimeter. And I spent
Speaker 1: the next two years trying to figure out some way
Speaker 1: to contact him until you helped me. So yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I stay in touch with him a lot. You know,
Speaker 1: he couldn't get published. That was just the way this
Speaker 1: stuff goes a lot of times, unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had another beef too with I think it
Speaker 2: was his book about Rudy Giuliani. One of his sources
Speaker 2: was that guy Lawrence Ray Sarah Lawrence Pimp.
Speaker 1: He w the trial for one of the modern name burglars.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh no, yeah, I go back. I was
Speaker 2: seventeen years old when I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: And Hangleton testified in that trial, so he got oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he told me about that very interesting life. He said.
Speaker 2: No, A has had an incredible life, and he got
Speaker 2: totally banned from Amazon. They took down all of his books.
Speaker 2: He's been knocked off of Oh yeah, he's been knocked off.
Speaker 2: You get a different name every week, eight Alan, Jules, different,
Speaker 2: Nat Jewles Alan, you know, because he gets knocked off,
Speaker 2: all out of us. That's a real fighter man. He
Speaker 2: has fight for long.
Speaker 1: He did an incredible job on his own. Yeah, no
Speaker 1: one's financing him tracking down this ultimatear manufacturer's report on
Speaker 1: my head is off to him.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but I mean now you're saying, no next.
Speaker 1: Book, no next book. I've written some articles. I may
Speaker 1: write some articles when it seizes me, but I'm not
Speaker 1: going to take kind of another book. There's no way.
Speaker 2: Well, then give us an idea. What are you working
Speaker 2: our next? Before you get what do you work in
Speaker 2: our next? We'll get into that first.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been writing about this idea of community
Speaker 1: unions and you know the current state of labor and
Speaker 1: what we need to do. And Wade Rathkei, the founder
Speaker 1: of Acorn, published an article I wrote about that in
Speaker 1: his journal called Social Policy. I've got a three thousand
Speaker 1: word article about the Luther assassination that's supposed to be
Speaker 1: coming out in a journal called Garrison. I thought I
Speaker 1: was supposed to be out by now, but it's about
Speaker 1: a deep politics history journal. So that's that's what I'm
Speaker 1: working on right now. Now. You know, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: involved with the UAW. Elections are coming up here in
Speaker 1: internal UAW politics have got my interest again right now.
Speaker 2: That was my next question, because you come out of
Speaker 2: the UAW and a longtime union leader organizer. Are you bitter?
Speaker 2: Are you bitter seeing them the weakness of a US
Speaker 2: labor these days?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question, you know. You know, in
Speaker 1: some ways I am better because I do not feel
Speaker 1: that people the leadership has dealt with problems in a
Speaker 1: straightforward manner. But you know, it's more sad. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know how far labor has fallen and how fall
Speaker 1: our working class has fallen, and during my life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's more sadness than bitterness really. But it just
Speaker 1: seems to me when things have been going so badly,
Speaker 1: we should have been doing some new things and some
Speaker 1: different things, and it doesn't seem to happen very often.
Speaker 2: Well, what's the motive. You know, all the money's on
Speaker 2: the other side. You mentioned Acorn, you know, Acorn was
Speaker 2: out of Nevada and the whole attack, the attack on
Speaker 2: Acorn started with Okeith, who were talking about her off
Speaker 2: the air. He's the one that started, right. Project Veritas
Speaker 2: went up to Acorn in Nevada because Acorn was the
Speaker 2: only people that showed up to Nevada Power and Energy
Speaker 2: there to protests increases, and they set up all kind
Speaker 2: of stablished for the elderly to get stabilization and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. And o'keith comes in destroys Acorn. There's no
Speaker 2: one left to protest against Nevada Power, and Warren Buffett
Speaker 2: comes in and buys Nevada Power.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, No, I think Acorn was really a
Speaker 1: great organization and they were really afraid of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: that was my idea. This is what a community union
Speaker 1: could look like that had a little more backing and support.
Speaker 1: That's something that needs to be attempted again.
Speaker 2: Well, give us an idea, what what is your plan
Speaker 2: for a community union? What could we get behind?
Speaker 1: Well, you know there were several that they started before
Speaker 1: Ruther's death, I mean once he died, then they abandoned him.
Speaker 1: But there's the Watts Area Community Organization or something that
Speaker 1: still survives. Ted Watkins as head of that that's still around.
Speaker 1: So they organize things around like housing, education, transportation, financial irregularities,
Speaker 1: you know, issues that are important in the community that
Speaker 1: affect workers. Not every issue is affects workers at their employer.
Speaker 1: And so you have a situation with like seventy percent
Speaker 1: of people say these support unions. They're only like six
Speaker 1: percent of private workers are in unions. So you need
Speaker 1: to reach these people in their communities and organize them
Speaker 1: around issues that are important. I mean, affordability seems to
Speaker 1: be a big issue now. Well, of course, these are
Speaker 1: the type of issues that can be addressed in the
Speaker 1: community much better than they canada a single employer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, across the board, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 2: general union, general strikes, the General Union. Ah boy, I
Speaker 2: don't know, man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just so discouraging, you know. This is Yeah,
Speaker 4: remind us though about the first book, the ol golpe
Speaker 4: give us a little snops SiTime people can run out
Speaker 4: and get el gopa us labor, the CIA and the
Speaker 4: coup at Ford.
Speaker 2: We did a whole hour about it. So people should
Speaker 2: go back and check that out. But remind us about
Speaker 2: that story. What's the deal with that.
Speaker 1: I was working at a Ford plant and must have
Speaker 1: been nineteen ninety and we got involved in supporting a
Speaker 1: reform movement at a Ford plant in Mexico where around
Speaker 1: three hundred thugs and tough guys had come in and
Speaker 1: started a fight with the workers in this plant. Actually
Speaker 1: one of them was shot and killed and nine or
Speaker 1: ten others were wounded, and that ended. They went on
Speaker 1: strike there, occupied the plant and were on strike for
Speaker 1: weeks before the police finally drove them out. So I said, what,
Speaker 1: you know, what happened there? I didn't really understand what happened,
Speaker 1: what this was about, So I began researching that when
Speaker 1: I retired, and I believe that these three hundred dougs
Speaker 1: and tough guys were a CIA sponsored group that a
Speaker 1: gangster had organized. So I found some documents that linked
Speaker 1: the head of that group to the CIA. And this
Speaker 1: was all through something called the American Institute of Free
Speaker 1: Labor Development, which was really a government funded CIA managed
Speaker 1: organization that worked under the cover of the afl CIA
Speaker 1: as being a union group. And so I, you know,
Speaker 1: there would nothing much had been written about that, and
Speaker 1: I did a history of that organization, and then when
Speaker 1: I got in touch with some of the workers in Mexico,
Speaker 1: a researcher from the un University of Minnesota was in
Speaker 1: Mexico City and helped with that, and you know, got
Speaker 1: their story about what happened and put the whole story
Speaker 1: together there about what happened in this forward plant in
Speaker 1: Mexico in nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2: And that's pretty recent, in nineteen nineties, it's definitely yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're still alive, most of the people who were
Speaker 1: involved in that at that time. Yeah, yeah, very recent.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean there was a government controlled union,
Speaker 1: the Mexican Confederation of Workers would put it mildly, was
Speaker 1: not susceptible to democratic reforms, and that's what this group
Speaker 1: was pushing in the plant there, and some of them
Speaker 1: were linked with a socialist group and of course AFEL
Speaker 1: that's what they existed for, was to put those type
Speaker 1: of groups down and keep them out of the union.
Speaker 1: So there was their motive for that debacle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we were talking about before with Growther, how
Speaker 2: back in those days, you know, you would need the
Speaker 2: CIA to run an operation like that. But today, like
Speaker 2: these big powerful tech bros and stuff like that. They
Speaker 2: got the money, they got the resources, blackwater out there.
Speaker 2: There's a plenty of guys out there that can pull
Speaker 2: those kind of things off now and they got money
Speaker 2: coming out of their ears. Just yeah, yeah, and spy
Speaker 2: on everybody, manipulate everybody, just a whole new ball game.
Speaker 2: You know, what do you see is more more of
Speaker 2: a danger that the CIA or these tech bros, these
Speaker 2: these billionaires that are just have more almost more power,
Speaker 2: more influence in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these these tech boards are something to fear. I
Speaker 1: have to say. You know, they can again find their
Speaker 1: own private armies. But again, we don't really know how
Speaker 1: much money the CIA has either do it. And in
Speaker 1: the course of doing this, you know, I've ran in
Speaker 1: some people that I think they've got operations going on
Speaker 1: in the US now, the CIA, and they're not supposed to.
Speaker 1: But I you know, I've had a couple of experiences
Speaker 1: in the last year that things don't add up and
Speaker 1: there's more going on than we think. But again, you know,
Speaker 1: so much a merger of these billionaires and government intelligence,
Speaker 1: you don't know where one starts. In the other end, sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That was another one of my questions that has
Speaker 2: Rob mackenzie. How much repercussions have you suffered? Will you
Speaker 2: talked to We talked off the air a bit about
Speaker 2: some hacking and stuff, you know, which which.
Speaker 3: I just take away is like another day nowadays. You know,
Speaker 3: coming at you, then I should have you. I'm happy,
Speaker 3: But you know, what do you like? What have you experienced?
Speaker 3: Because you know, these are two serious books.
Speaker 2: Was a lot of work dealing with people like ag
Speaker 2: you attract a lot of attention.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, too much. I suppose. I did the book
Speaker 1: launch on Labor Day in Detroit and had a a zoom,
Speaker 1: which I was and there was a Google recording that
Speaker 1: she did for me, and so I was promoting that
Speaker 1: on Facebook. I had decided that Facebook was the best
Speaker 1: place to reach out to workers and I was going
Speaker 1: to really do that. So I set up a website
Speaker 1: and so you know, they make you jump through a
Speaker 1: lot of hoops about you know, verifying yourself and you know,
Speaker 1: getting approved for social and political postings, which they said
Speaker 1: this was But I had about sixty thousand views after
Speaker 1: a couple months, and then I started posting about this
Speaker 1: community union thing in Ruther's thoughts on that, and my
Speaker 1: started getting phony charges on my account, and so I
Speaker 1: had to cancel my credit card and I probably spent
Speaker 1: two and a half hours with Meta texts trying to
Speaker 1: get rid of this hack in my account. I thought
Speaker 1: we'd done it, and I started posting again. Then these
Speaker 1: phony charges starting running up again, and then Meta just shut.
Speaker 1: My whole page just disappeared. I was gone. So it
Speaker 1: suddenly popped up a few weeks ago. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I was a past the quarantine or whatever, and
Speaker 1: I started again running some promotions, and the phony charges
Speaker 1: started showing up right again. So it gets really dark now,
Speaker 1: and I made some mistakes, and I don't really want
Speaker 1: to go on the air about how they were successful
Speaker 1: in hacking my account, but I have learned now how
Speaker 1: this stuff works with passwords and recovery codes and security codes,
Speaker 1: and I've got all my accounts straightened out and running properly,
Speaker 1: and I'm fairly lucky to have had that, but I
Speaker 1: worked at it. And so I have a Facebook page
Speaker 1: called Labor Power and History where I'm posting stuff about Ruther,
Speaker 1: and that's I feel very good that that account is
Speaker 1: secure at this current time. I came very close to
Speaker 1: losing my computer and my.
Speaker 3: Phone as of this recording with Slipity Labor Power and
Speaker 3: History on Facebook and then otherwise Rob McKenzie dot net.
Speaker 2: And then the two books once again are the first
Speaker 2: one is El Goope Us Labor, the CIA and the
Speaker 2: coup at Ford in Mexico Wildcat, and then the other
Speaker 2: one is the assassination of Walter Ruth, Why they did
Speaker 2: it and how we know? Mister Rob McKenzie, we are
Speaker 2: just about out of time. What would you like to
Speaker 2: leave us with?
Speaker 1: Well, I again, I really this society needs worker organization,
Speaker 1: you know, whether that's the traditional unions are something new.
Speaker 1: When things get as bad as they are now, it
Speaker 1: really shows the absence of organized worker political and economic power.
Speaker 1: And you know, I just hope that the younger generation
Speaker 1: can find some way to move that forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's in our best interest, is
Speaker 2: in every single worker out there, it's in our best
Speaker 2: interest to unite and to come together and form a
Speaker 2: some type of or I hate to say union, but
Speaker 2: form some type of cooperative corporative there with each other.
Speaker 2: And you see now with all this stuff with the Epstein,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone is united against that. You know, there's
Speaker 2: it's the popular opinion that very few people want to
Speaker 2: take it the other side that you think people could
Speaker 2: could gather around against their own self interest, you know,
Speaker 2: to promote their their brothers and their sisters and their children,
Speaker 2: and their coworkers and their neighbors.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah yeah, Rob McKenzie, listen, anything you have,
Speaker 3: what you're working on, get us a call.
Speaker 2: We'll put you around on the.
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks so much, Ed, it was nice talking with you.
Speaker 2: No, thank you, sir, Rob mackenzie dot net. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much. Good night, don't