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Speaker 1: While the whole in our hearts and lives will never

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be filled. I hope that in time our family can

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find healing. I pray that the other victim's family can

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find some semblance of the same. I'm hopeful that all

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the wounded are able to make a full recovery and

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return home to their families. And finally, all the people

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and especially the children impacted by this horrific event, are

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able to recover mentally and find strength to live loving,

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happy and full lives.

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Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to the Ricashey Podcast, Episode number seven hundred

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and fifty five. I'm joined by Stephen Haywood in California

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and Charles W. Cook in Florida, and gentlemen, thank you.

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So uh, I guess I should start with the news

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I live. Technically, I'm on fifty first and the Annunciation

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Church in Minneapolis is on fifty fourth, so I'm close.

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There's the creek, the creek between us, beautiful rushing water

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that goes down to minne Falls. Lovely neighborhood, beautiful neighborhood,

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beautiful day, and I get to call for my sister

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in law, who are attacks for my sister in law

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who lives about a block away from the church that

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there had been a mass shooting and annunciation, and she

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goes out and talks to her neighborho had actually seen

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the demon do it. And within seconds, it seems as

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if every as I wrote in Ricochet, every siren in

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the world was heading our way. This this this, this

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chorus of whales. That was astonishing, and it was it was.

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It was a bad day here. And the only thing

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I can think of, that's that's that's apt Is nine.

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And I know people drag that into everything, but the

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same sense of after the event, and the and and

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just the stunned feeling, that ghastly miasma that descends over

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the community, and how the TV is always on. The

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TV is your friend, It's right there, and it's it's

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always on all the you know, all the local channels

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were dumped their Judge Judy and when went to this

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and you know, we all know now what it was about.

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We all well, we we do. It seems some of

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the authorities are still scratching their head and trying to

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figure out what the motivation was. We may never know.

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The strange thing for me was that I was getting

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on X the identity of this guy about forty five

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minutes before the authorities announced it. I don't know how

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that happened. I don't know. Obviously, the ide'd the miscreant

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right away, and the FBI was on the scene, and

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the FBI was able to pull the stuff down from YouTube.

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Apparently there's a there's there's a protocol for this, there's

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a there's a red phone that rings, and they know

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it's the FBI telling him to take something down because

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his manifesto that he'd put up was gone, but somebody

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had scraped it and taken screenshots and put the whole

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thing up and got the guy's identification. And I'm still

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trying to figure out exactly how that happened. And it

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just once again shows you how the world has changed.

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It used to be you sit by the television and

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wait for Walter Cronkite to break in and take off

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his glasses and wipe his eyes and tell you something.

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But now no, it's blasting out of that little magic

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glass rectangle in your pocket. And what we know about

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the guy, of course, is fascinating, not in a good way.

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It's a look I thought for a lot of people

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into a part of the dank in cell, moist, miserable,

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nihilistic cave in online in which so many of these

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people dwell and a lot. I mean, if you looked

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at what he wrote on his gun, his rifle in

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the magazines, it was a compendium of Internet memes and

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cliches and references. I hope a lot of people take

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a look at that and study what it means and

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figure out exactly what to do about guys like this,

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because my first instinct is not demand the guns.

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Speaker 3: Oh. I always try to go by the seventy two

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hour rule in these things, which is way too you

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have some information and confirmation of things. This is one

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case where you can set some of that aside, because,

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first of all, James, I'm a little curious too that

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we got photos of the guns and other information came

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out so quickly. Maybe it was some you know, random

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people on social media.

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Speaker 2: Who out No, No, I don't think so. The most

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likely thing. I think, the most likely explanation is that

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he set this thing to go to be to go

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public at a certain time, and one of his mutuals

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got a notification. Oh and when they got the notification,

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they scraped it, downloaded it, and then sent it to

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somebody to give themselves some distance from it. That's the

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only thing that I can imagine that makes some sense. Yeah,

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I'm not going to be conspiratorial about this and say

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that it was all you know, this is all this

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is all black rock deep state stuff.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: False.

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Speaker 3: No, no, Well, but sorry, Jay, if we can't our

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mind back to the shooting in Nashville, what a year

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and a half ago, also by a transgender student of

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great trouble who had a manifesto that was actively suppressed

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by the police and the authorities. Parts of it have

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finally leaked out, and I thought, maybe somebody's leaking it

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out to get ahead of the suppression effort, which is

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point number two, which is I'm watching the media turn

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somersaults to avoid bringing up the chosen identity of the shooter,

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so they'll say, you know, troubled person, maybe mental illness issues.

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NPR kept talking about they shot themselves for this person

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used to day then pronounced I was watching NBC Nightly

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News about it the other night, and I thought, how

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ironic that they won't mention this at all, and yet

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to have an ongoing segment right now in NBC ninety

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news called the cost of denial. It's about health insurance

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and all those problems that are not new to be

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reported on. But I thought talk about cost of denial.

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The media and all of our authorities are going out

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of their way to deny that any sort of mental

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illness and mental unbalance of this person could be in

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any way related to his gender identity issues. Oh no,

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we can't talk about that. That's a bigotry and hate

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and everything else.

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Speaker 4: Charles, Well, I'm sorry that happens so close to you.

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I'm sorry it happened at all. But it sounds as

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if it was more horring for you than I am.

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Speaker 2: The least important element of this story.

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Speaker 4: No, I know, but still, but still it's worse when

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things happen close to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's.

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Speaker 4: The guns either, And not only do I not think

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it's the guns, but I think that this is an

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irrelevant factor because even if you want it to, you

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can't ban guns. There's hundreds of millions of them. So

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then the question is what can you do? And I

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never know the answer. James like, well, can.

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Speaker 2: You keep a guy from walking into a pond shop

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passing the background check because he has no criminal record

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and working out with one of these things. No, well

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you can't if you simply say you can't do that

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in Minneapolis. But then of course you can go to Richfield.

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Speaker 4: Well right, but also you can go to the black market.

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And this guy, unfortunately, was obsessed with other school shooters.

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Speaker 2: He was clearly.

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Speaker 4: In a line of mass shooters and that's how he

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saw himself. He'd written their names on the magazines. So

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if you're that determined, the argument that adding friction into

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the process it's problematic in many ways. It's a constitutional right.

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If you do that, you also end up preventing people

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who need guns to defend themselves from getting them and

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so on. But the argument in favor of adding friction

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between a gun purchaser and a gun makes sense in

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certain circumstances from a purely practical perspective, if, for example,

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you wish to stop somebody killing himself on a whim,

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or if somebody is very angry and would have calmed

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down had he not been able to get a gun,

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that's the theory at least. But in this case, I mean,

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you're talking about somebody who wrote a manifesto, and the

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manifesto is crazy, and I do think we ought to

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keep that in mind. It's crazy in so many different ways,

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some of which touch politics. But the most crazy thing

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about it is this bizarre, schizophrenic flipping between I want

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to kill children. I thought that is abhorrent to almost

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everyone in the world, and hey, Tommy, be nice to mum,

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make sure that you do your homework.

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Speaker 2: What what sort.

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Speaker 4: Of person is concerned about the relationship between their sibling

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and their mother but also is talking about killing children.

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This is the part that I think is impossible to interrogate.

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Speaker 2: I share.

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Speaker 4: Steve's absolute irritation with the press because the press does

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not take the view that I usually take left or right,

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trans or not man or woman, that the people who

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do this are usually crazy. The press likes to focus

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in on details. And you can bet your asset if

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this guy had had a Maga hat, even if every

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other thing he had said was left wing, if he

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had one Maga hat in his bedroom, or it would

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have been caught in the frame or of a red

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hat for an oil company had been caught in the

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frame of the video, they'd have talked about it. But

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now it's too nuanced, it's too difficult to know. So

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what they're doing is they're systematically and selectively suppressing what

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we are allowed to know and talk about.

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Speaker 2: I find that wildly annoying, even though I'm.

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Speaker 4: Not somebody who tends to take the view that hey,

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somebody on the other side did this. Therefore, I think

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that's usually useless. But the press doesn't, so we get

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it only in one direction, and I find that furiating.

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Speaker 2: But they can't because the information is out there and

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everybody's having the conversation, and there's some conversations that they

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don't want us to have. They're just not because they

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you know, I hate that thing den tricks that your

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dentist doesn't want you to know. What I mean by

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that is it's an uncomfortable conversation that exposes hypocrisies and

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flaws in arguments and theories. And it has to do

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with the guy's transgender identity. One. I don't think I'm

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looking at this guy. I don't think he was on anything.

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To be frank, I don't think he was going through

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any medicalized transition. I just get that feeling and I

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had that that was reiterated by a transgender advocate who

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was in my Twitter feed, who said, you know, this

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person was just trying on an identity. They put their

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hair in pigtails, didn't take any drugs, didn't do any surgery,

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et cetera, et cetera. So not not really a transgender person.

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I thought, oh wait, hold, hold on a second, that's

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not what we've been told before we had been told

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the whole basis of self ID is that one need

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not have to go through any of these things. That

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simply declaring oneselves to be another general is sufficient because

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they know, because our children know, listen to the children

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they know, and therefore everything should flip and they should

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have all the access to the to the other sex

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that you know that the natural born females or manles have.

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So that's part of the Other part is is that

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if you want red flag laws or people who have

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manifest signs of mental instability, If you want to say no,

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that crazy person walking into the gun shop should not

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get a gun, what do you say about a hulking

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man in address with pigtails and makeup? Are you allowed

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to say, I don't believe that that person has the

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mental stability that we generally require from people to you know,

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to possess this, because then all of a sudden. Then

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you're classifying their way of presenting and identifying themselves as

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a mental instability, and we can't have that. So, I mean,

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what the whole everybody has suppressed, not suppressed, but just

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decline to discuss the nuances that surround the whole transgender,

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general identity, general ideology thing. They just they just state

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what is what must be agreed upon and that we

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must be kind and then we move on from that

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point without every being able to discuss. But people want

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that discussion, and online is exactly where we're having that discussion. Well,

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other discussions to come, and that will be this we

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are going to talk to Oh wait a minute, Wait

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a minute, wait a minute, talk Why talk when you can,

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you know, do something else like check your bank balance?

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Have you done that recently? Have you? How about your investments?

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Looked at those? Well, well, I'm sure of course the

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answer to this will be to invest in our community,

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invest in this, and invest in that. Whenever you hear

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a politician use the word invest the you mean anything

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except what invest means. But you're probably thinking, well, I

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should invest. I like to invest. Investing is good, But

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you got to ask yourself, are you being lined to

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and know. They tell you to defer paying your taxes

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by saving in a four to one k or an

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ira because you'll retire at a lower tax bracket. If

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dot com slash ricochet. And we thank beckon yourself for

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sponsoring this the Ricaget podcast. And now we welcome to

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the podcast Will Chamberlain, vice President for External Affairs at

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the Edmund Brooke Foundation. He's also the senior council at

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the Article three Project and the Internet Accountability Project. Well, welcome,

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good to be with you. Well, of course I'd like

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to know about the vice president for Internal Affairs. But

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more than that, I'd like to know about the Edmund

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Brooke Foundation. Tell us about it. It's having its fifth

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annual National Conservatism Convention conference in DC next week. What

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should people know about the organization?

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Speaker 5: Well, so it's found a boy your and Hiszzoni, the

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author of the Virtue of Nationalism. And really if you

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want to learn, you know precisely, like what the political

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beliefs of the organization are. What we're trying to put forward.

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There's a statement of principles available at the website. I think,

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you know, it's really a conservatism that's deeply rooted in nationalism.

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That and I think it orients itself and it finds

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itself very much at the center of the modern right.

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Not necessarily, you know, there's not a uniform view on

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foreign policy, but it's more oriented towards restraint than previous

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dominant intellectual strengths and conservatism.

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Speaker 6: It's also very much.

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Speaker 5: Focused on you know, the right of peoples to maintain

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their sovereignty, and that's very focused on immigration. And it

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is not certainly not you know, the orthodox kind of

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libertarian view on economics. It you know, we're not, we're

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very much heterodox, although I mean we're not socialists or anything.

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But we're perfectly willing to see terrorists used judiciously, and

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so we find ourselves very much an approval of much

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of the Trump agenda.

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Speaker 2: Nationalism is one of those words. It probably gets you

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red flagged over in Europe. Here in the States, how

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would you regard nationalism as having the same sort of

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bad odor that it does in the Well, yeah, I

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mean the EU is this wonderful transnational project that's going

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to dissolve borders and have everybody grouped into this this

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happy union of shared ideas. And you know, America is

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a country based on an idea, but we're also based

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very firmly in the fact of our geographical location, the

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fact that we are in nation. So where doesn't what

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do you think nationhood pull nationalism polls these days?

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Speaker 5: I think it would pull pretty strongly. Donald Trump, you know,

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famously said I am a nationalist and that he didn't

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think it was a bad word, and all of a

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sudden he's you know, he's the leader of the Republican

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Party and the President of the United States. I think

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it's probably popular.

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Speaker 3: JD.

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Speaker 5: Vance actually, I think described what nationalism is nationalism is

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pretty well at last year's conference where he was a keynote.

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I mean he said, you know, it's not We're not

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merely just an idea. We're a common people with a

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you know, a common history and a common future. And

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there's there's I mean there obviously people can join that.

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This isn't a like, this isn't blood and soil. People

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can join that. That people, but it's more than just

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's our here's our Brookie and Charles Headley Cook

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to to ask you the next question. Charles, so what

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is not a nationalist?

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Speaker 4: Maybe that's a better way of looking at who do

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you not want to be like?

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Speaker 5: On the right or the left? I mean, who do

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we not want to be like on the left? I

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mean it's pretty easy to you know, this is people,

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I mean, the kind of people who national identity is

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bad that we should you know, submit to a single

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world government or some sort of globe, some sort of

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other type of liberal imperial arrangement. And then further centrists,

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I think the kind of the tax you know, not tacky,

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but the sort of simplistic way to put it would

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be the invade the world, invite the world viewpoint, which

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is the idea that we ought, you know, that it's

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perfectly fine for us to be, you know, have a

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global empire where we're you know, running everything everywhere, but

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simultaneously have no discrimination about who we admit in because hey,

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if you just you know, say, you know, say say

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the words of the Oath, you can be an American

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just like everybody else. And I think it's a little

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it's quite a bit more than that. And then I

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think on the right, we certainly don't want to be

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like the you know, I think truly blood and soil,

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uh and really you know, aggressively bigoted people. I think

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that's a really simple way, simple way to understand it.

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But there, you know, there are there are groups on

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the right that you know, seem to uh believe that

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things like jewsers averting the white race, like all sorts

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of silly nonsense like that, and that's definitely not us

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and we we really don't have any time for it.

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I think you know, Or himself is Israeli, and you

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know the kind of you actually look at the conference leadership,

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it kind of comes.

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Speaker 6: From all over the place.

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Speaker 5: You know, Anna Wellis is Polish and lives in America.

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I'm I'm American, but of you know, like you know,

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my dad's a Wasp, my my mom is Jewish. So

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it's you know, there's a lot of and then there's

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plenty of you know, Protestants and Catholics. So it's it's

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a it's a wide it's a wide range of people

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from different backgrounds, but it's it's a there's a deep

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Americanism to it, and it's in you know, these are

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people most of these people, especially on the American side,

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are people who've been you know, been here. They aren't

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just necessarily like recent immigrants.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 4: I think some of the people who are very critical

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of Trump and I have been at times, they miss

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remember how much nationalism was in the Republican Party historically.

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They think that there was this time there was no

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one who's in favor of tariffs and immigration restrictionism, and

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so it's just not true.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: So obviously you have your figures like Pap Buchanan, who's

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opposed to boy for a certain portion of conservatism.

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Speaker 2: But if you go back to Reagan, do you see Reagan.

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Speaker 4: As a nationalist in some ways or is this project

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in opposition or tension with the Reaganism.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a little bit of both. I mean,

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I think our attitude towards Reagan will be some good,

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some bad. I think we would probably look back at

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some of Reagan's amnesty decisions as some of the you know,

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the worst policy decisions he would have made that really

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set us back in a number of ways. And it's

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you know, on the other hand, obviously Reagan bringing back

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the Republican Party as a brand and a lot of

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nationalist ideas, and I think much of his foreign policy

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approach was something we would broadly agree with. So it's

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a mix of both. It's also kind of hard to criticize,

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you know, I when when Reagan was around, when Reagan

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was president, you know, I was three, So I'm sort

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of I'm always a little skeptical of presentism. With regard

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to criticizing Reagan. You have to wonder what was the

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debate about immigration, Like what were people thinking?

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Speaker 2: And I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's quite possible that there were more prescient

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people who were extremely critical of Reagan from the right

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on his immigration policies. I don't really know, And so

400
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I'm willing to give the man himself a bit of

401
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grace on that. But I think we would look back

402
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at that part of his record and say that that

403
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was certainly a mistake and there needs to be a

404
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corrective towards it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just one very great thing on that in the

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late nineteen eighties, National Reviews to run these editorials in

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a favorite running line when they criticized Reagan was this

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would never have happened if Ronald Reagan was still alive.

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Even that was some of.

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Speaker 2: That yeah, well, can I jump in here on that point.

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Speaker 3: It's Steve Hayward out in California, Will and I'll just

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say straight out that I've been fascinated by the National

413
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Conservative Project for a while. I attended the first, the

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very first one, which was the twenty seventeen now or

415
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eighteen in.

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Speaker 6: Washington, eighteen twenty nineteen, I think, yeah, whatever it.

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Speaker 3: Was, and I wanted to come to several more. There

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00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,359
was either I had a scheduled conflict or in one case,

419
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I was going to come to a Miami meeting and

420
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the airlines didn't cooperate, I couldn't make it, and I

421
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,759
can't make it next week, unfortunately, which I'm sorry because

422
00:21:13,759 --> 00:21:16,279
I'm delighted to see you're giving your big Beaconsfield Prize

423
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to my one of my mentors, Chris Debuth, good friend,

424
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and so forth.

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Speaker 2: At one point about the Reagan business.

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Speaker 3: Now, of course, by the time the failure of that

427
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:30,160
amnesty of eighty six eighty seven became obvious by the

428
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,200
mid nineties, really you know, Reagan had his Alzheimer's. But

429
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Mee told me several times, oh yeah, that was a

430
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,160
terrible deal. We should never have done it. We believe

431
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the Democrats, the Congress would and the bureaucracy would enforce

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employment verification other things that didn't happen, and said we

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should not.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, they regretted that fairly early on.

435
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Speaker 3: But Reagan was always something of an immigration dove, going

436
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back to his experience as California governor when you had,

437
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,160
you know, a guest worker program for agriculture, and okay,

438
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that probably worked decently anyway, but it's true, Charles Race

439
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,599
is a good point. One of the things that people forget,

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including a lot of pro Reagan nostalgist who I am

441
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at least half the day, is during the eighties there

442
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were a lot of conservatives, and I was among him,

443
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who were very frustrated with Reagan over arms control, Soviet Union.

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Immigration was not as big, but there were some people

445
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and certain fiscal matters which now look very differently in retrospect.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to that. I wrote a large book

447
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about all that. A couple of things about.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me do one big one is you may

449
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reference a moment ago to jd Vance last year saying

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I forget how we put it or how you summarized it,

451
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but I understand what he's on about, which is well,

452
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there's always been this debate about whether America is a

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credle nation deca had our identity really for the declaration

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of independence, or whether we're a historical nation. And I

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remember Margaret Thatcher saying once that Europe is a product

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of history, America is a product of philosophy, hilted toward

457
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the creedle part. And as you may know, we've been

458
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having these rather bitter debates about some aspect of that

459
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question for decades among conservatives. I'm scratching my head thinking,

460
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why can't it be both? Why can't someone produce an

461
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intellectual synthesis that blends them together, which I actually think

462
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is the right answer to things. And maybe you guys

463
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will be the ones who come up with that in

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the fullness of time.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think I think Joram's book is I mean,

466
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he's really I think he does a good job of

467
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integrating the you know, the creedle part to an extent.

468
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I mean it is you know, he talks about kind

469
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of the nation as the sort of middle ground between

470
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the tribe and the empire, right is, you know, and

471
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it's sort of tribes unifying. He roots it in kind

472
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of the experience of these biblical Israel and the Bible,

473
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you know, and I think that there's something to the

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idea of kind of the expanding circle of loyalties. Vans

475
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also talked about this when he had that whole discussion

476
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,880
about order of Morris, the idea that you know, it's

477
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,240
like the people closest to your family you most loyalty too.

478
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,279
Then it expands and the degree of loyalty care reduces

479
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,279
as you expand outward in the concentric circle.

480
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: You know.

481
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 5: I think it's all it's a difficult way thing to

482
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,640
balance because you have these obviously truths, right, the idea

483
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,519
that we have immigrants that come in and they really

484
00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:20,279
duly truly become American. But on the other hand, simply

485
00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:22,640
saying the words clearly is insufficient.

486
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:24,799
Speaker 2: And when you go.

487
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 5: Simply embrace the idea entirely that you're just a credal nation,

488
00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:29,160
you end up admitting a bunch of people who have

489
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,200
no meaningful loyalty to the country. Like I could I

490
00:24:31,319 --> 00:24:33,799
usually name specific names people, you know, it blows my

491
00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:36,559
mindlets around. I'm Nadi Mamdani is running for office in

492
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,319
New York. The guy was it wasn't even a citizen

493
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,279
until five years ago.

494
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:40,839
Speaker 6: I think that.

495
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 5: You know, a guy named Oron McIntyre had a great

496
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,160
epithet for this. It's a paperwork, American, like, you've signed

497
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,279
the words, you said the oath, But do you actually

498
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,400
agree with any of the founding principles? Does your politics

499
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,640
resemble anything that like twenty years ago, Americans would have thought, Ah, yes,

500
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,799
that's that's something we can recognize as an American viewpoint.

501
00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 6: And I look at Zora Mundani and I think, no,

502
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:02,440
not really.

503
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, I'm reminded of the story that

504
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,039
maybe true told about the Battle of Bulge in World

505
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,240
War Two, when apparently there was a unit of Germans

506
00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:14,400
dressed in American or British uniforms who could speak English,

507
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,079
and what was the question you asked them to determine if

508
00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:21,119
they were authentically not German? And the question wasn't what's

509
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,000
the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence? It was

510
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,319
something like who won the World Series last year? Something

511
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,240
only an American would know, Right, So I said, I

512
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,960
don't know if that story is true. He gets often

513
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,839
told let me switch to another sort of issue that's

514
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:40,200
almost say troublesome to me. I'm fascinated by it. But

515
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,400
and you're going to have another debate about it at

516
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,200
this conference. I see from the agenda, and that's industrial policy.

517
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,400
And here see, I wasn't three years old when Reagan

518
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,559
was president. I was voted for the third time in

519
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:55,920
nineteen eighty four when Nash Review and conservatives like me

520
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:58,839
all said Walter Mondale's out of his mind calling for

521
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,680
industrial policy and saying America needs to have destiny over

522
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,000
making its microchips and computer screens and all the rest.

523
00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 2: Oh, domestic content.

524
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 3: Legislation for cars and machine tools was a big, a

525
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:15,000
big and it was this was socialism, this was central planning,

526
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,680
we all said. And now suddenly I'm hearing it from

527
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:22,440
some national conservatives. I don't categorically say like we did

528
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,839
in eighty four that this is socialism or central planning,

529
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:27,200
but I'm not entirely persuaded.

530
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: By ore and casts.

531
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 3: And again I haven't made the meetings, but I haven't

532
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,880
seen a lot of progress and really refining this. How

533
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,279
do you make it something that we're confident will work?

534
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,920
And how do you avoid all the pitfalls of red

535
00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:43,319
seeking and special interests and and simply dead weight mistakes?

536
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's there's a I think part of

537
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,640
part of the answer to that is you have to

538
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,240
be intelligent about how you do it. And part of

539
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,799
the answer to that is you have to embrace some

540
00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:57,000
amount of that as the cost of having industrial policy

541
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,160
and therefore trying to achieve the positive ends that you're

542
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,799
trying to achieve. You know that there's going to be

543
00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:04,240
some amount of rent seeking with regard to all this.

544
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,000
I think it's interesting to you know, I've talked with

545
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:11,039
a number of kind of people, intellectual influencers my age

546
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,160
in the conservative movement. You know, the people who grew

547
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,599
up went you know, went to high school when Bush

548
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,079
was president, for example, and you know, we all we

549
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,599
all had this experience. Many of us went to you know,

550
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,079
like Conservative Fellowship type things or or you know, put

551
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:28,559
things put on by the Coke Foundation, and we're taught

552
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:31,519
all the free trade stuff, and and and then I

553
00:27:31,599 --> 00:27:34,880
remember having this discussion somebody were like, you know, so

554
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,400
when somebody actually started making arguments about why that wasn't true,

555
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,720
I realized, like I didn't really listened to the accounter arguments.

556
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,039
I literally had just heard the arguments, the free trade arguments,

557
00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:44,680
and I hadn't heard any of the other arguments, and

558
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,960
I think, you know, Rubio had an interesting speech or

559
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,599
he was gonna he was just being interviewed at one

560
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,279
point where he said during his presidential campaign, you know,

561
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:54,279
he was parent, he was saying the free trade line,

562
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,279
and then he visited the rust belt and said to himself,

563
00:27:57,319 --> 00:27:59,480
you know, there's a there's a real downside here, and

564
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,559
and we have look back at NAPA and say that this,

565
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,400
whatever this was, it certainly was not helpful, not good

566
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,000
for these voters. And these voters are our people, the

567
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,799
people who vote, you know, people who we want to

568
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,599
vote Republican. So you know, I think I think there's

569
00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:17,200
two obvious angles that industrial policy makes sense on. First is,

570
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,720
obviously there's a huge national security angle, which is that

571
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,880
there's a you know, having supply chains of important things

572
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,200
controlled by China is very risky to our national security,

573
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,240
and so reshoring a huge slew of manufacturing just needs

574
00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:36,079
to happen. Pharmaceuticals, important, uh, strategically important military assets, rare with.

575
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 6: Metals, you name it.

576
00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:40,599
Speaker 5: And then the second thing is, yeah, we need to

577
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,720
we can't be cavalier about the jobs of working at

578
00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:47,240
the working class Americans who vote Republican. We just can't

579
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,480
be cavalier about that. Those people demoralize means, and it's

580
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,799
it's self defeating to not want to make sure those

581
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,920
people are doing well. And the reason it's self defeating

582
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,759
is because if they're demoralized, they don't vote.

583
00:28:57,559 --> 00:28:58,599
Speaker 6: In the socialists takeover.

584
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 5: So, you know, I think that that has to be

585
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:03,440
There has to be a real politic element from the

586
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,440
right about you know, whatever whatever inefficiencies result, there has

587
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,480
to be a real politic element about if if if

588
00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:12,920
our voters are not doing well, even if then then

589
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,839
we're going to be in trouble and the end results

590
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:15,960
is going to be bad for everybody.

591
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,319
Speaker 3: One more then I'll turn will turn you back to

592
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,359
the tender or untender mercies of James and Charles, and

593
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,480
it be the other hot button or divisive question, which

594
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,039
is foreign policy. And I see you are going to

595
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:33,039
have a whole panel on the United States in the

596
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:35,160
Middle Eastern War, and you know, Israel and Gaza and

597
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:37,119
what I from the looks of the lineup, that's going

598
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,079
to be a barn burner. And so we now have,

599
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:42,359
as I think, a subset of the net cons the restrainers,

600
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,119
who I mean Dan McCarthy's a friend of mine and I,

601
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,359
you know, I have a lot of agreement with a

602
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:50,960
lot of what they have to say. But this looks

603
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,920
like one of the naughtiest problems than that cons because

604
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,799
I think the disagreements there are serious and deep and

605
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,000
hard to harmonize.

606
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:01,359
Speaker 5: I think that's right. I mean, it's it's it's our

607
00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,559
biggest challenge. It's it's really the only panel I think

608
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:06,799
where there's explicitly it's almost explicitly set up to have

609
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,559
a really distinct clash of viewpoints.

610
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: Uh.

611
00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 5: That's not necessarily the case on a lot of other

612
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,359
panels where the participants in our movement are basically aligned.

613
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,640
You know, there isn't there isn't some open borders immigration

614
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,880
advocate debating somebody else on immigration, for example. But on

615
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,200
the Iran strikes, you know, there were definitely are competing

616
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,480
factions that would I would think of as both within

617
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,640
the NAT content, you know, the American conservative restrainer types,

618
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,920
and then more kind of actually you know, hardcore realists.

619
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:35,640
I would say, I don't even think of it as

620
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,920
neo conservatism. I think it is a straightforward, very pragmatic realism.

621
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,880
That's you know, says, I mean that, you know, I

622
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,400
personally find myself on the realist side. I think that

623
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,440
the basic you know, I joke about trusting the plan, right,

624
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,079
you know, borrowing all that from qan on. But I think, uh,

625
00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:54,839
there's something I could actually develop that into an entire

626
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,319
theory of foreign policy approach, which is defference.

627
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:57,559
Speaker 6: Right.

628
00:30:57,599 --> 00:30:59,599
Speaker 5: I elect a guy who I think of as having

629
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,839
sharing my general perspective, and then when he makes decisions,

630
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,119
I assume he's making them for the in the right

631
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:08,039
way because he has I have enough evidence of him

632
00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:09,480
viewing the world the way that I do that I

633
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,880
assume that his decisions are rooted in the intelligence and

634
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,079
makes sense. And I think those people who did that

635
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:16,200
with regard to Trump and Iran, even if they were

636
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,279
not inclined towards intervention, found themselves vindicated because, of course

637
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,319
the war. You know, the strikes were very effective and

638
00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:24,799
the war wrapped up in forty eight hours.

639
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: You know, we to get back to industrial policy versus

640
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,880
a second now that you're not making interesting points there,

641
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,880
But here's the deal. We always say nowadays, well, you know,

642
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:36,599
we warned you you wouldn't like the rules when they

643
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:39,400
were applied to you. It's something we tell the left

644
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,599
because they change things. They say law fair is great,

645
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,000
and now you know se on the other foot. The

646
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:47,480
she's going to be on the other foot at some point.

647
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:52,480
And if we start to become accustomed to and normalize

648
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,240
a great deal more government and intervention in corporate policies,

649
00:31:57,839 --> 00:31:59,160
the left is going to take that right up. They're

650
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,759
not going to do it for a nationalism reason. They're

651
00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:02,079
not going to do it because of nation that. They're

652
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:03,640
going to do it seemly because they want the control

653
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,440
in order to make the industries do what they want

654
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,720
them to do, or to use it as a pretext

655
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,720
for nationalizing them without actually having to do it or

656
00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:14,640
go through that. Is there a point where you would

657
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,720
be concerned about the government's intertwining with business? Ten percent

658
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:26,319
of Intel's okay, but fifty five you ain't. What's your

659
00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:31,279
comfort level on the amount of intervention that the the industry?

660
00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 5: There is obviously a level at which I would be uncomfortable.

661
00:32:34,799 --> 00:32:37,359
We're I don't think we're there really particularly close to

662
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,920
there is the answer to that specific question in terms

663
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,119
of the argument about kind of precedent setting. I have

664
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:47,279
a general perspective on this sort of argument, which is

665
00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:49,480
that it is not it is not a productive use

666
00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:51,200
of time to worry about the precedents who are setting

667
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,680
for Democrats when you constantly complain about them doing unprecedented

668
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,759
things all the time, when they have power, they do

669
00:32:56,839 --> 00:33:00,559
unprecedented things all the time, Which means that the consequence

670
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:02,640
of the presidency said you really should think about, is

671
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,440
this this uniquely a precedent they would not exploit but

672
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,559
for our having opened the door. And I don't think

673
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:10,480
that's true at all with a guard to economic policy.

674
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:13,200
I mean, you know, we do we criticize Biden for

675
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,640
being one of the most absurdly you know, corporatist presidents. Yeah,

676
00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:20,000
I don't think that was that was not a product

677
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:23,000
of Trump suddenly bringing up industrial policy again. That was

678
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480
a product of Biden wanting to shovel something like two

679
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:27,400
billion out the door at the end of his presidencied

680
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,279
all sorts of his political allies. So I think that

681
00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:32,680
that's that's This is a very very strong view that

682
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,160
I have, at least for the regard to president. I

683
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,880
always find the arguments about, oh, well, the Democrats might

684
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,720
exploit this president. I mean, think about all the judicial

685
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:41,079
wars the Democrats have always been the first to defect

686
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:44,240
on every issue of consequence with regard to the judiciary,

687
00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:48,920
you know, deciding to revive the legislative filibuster for judicial

688
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,839
nominees and then revoke it themselves, Like this is how

689
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,119
Democrats operate. Jerrymandering another great example, right, the Democrats have

690
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,400
been aggressively jerry mandering. So you name it, you find

691
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,359
a place where the Democrats have always been the first movers.

692
00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:02,720
And I think that's that's rooted in the kind of

693
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:06,079
basic democratic vibe in their politics, which is we are

694
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:08,159
morally righteous, so we don't care about the rules.

695
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 6: Ultimately, they're just there to be exploited.

696
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 5: Uh So, I think the Republican approach and response to

697
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,480
that should be, well, tit for tat. It's one you know,

698
00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:18,239
obviously we're going to do tit for tat. We're not

699
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,400
just going to submit and uh too, just the willingness

700
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,599
to say we're not going to sit here and worry

701
00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:25,880
about the president. We're just going to say is this

702
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,039
the right thing to do for us? Like does this

703
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:30,440
help our voters? Does this help our does this help

704
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,159
our politics? If so, then we should do it. And

705
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,960
you know, and worry about, like what the Democrats are

706
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:37,800
going to do when they do it, realizing that it's

707
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,599
not it's not a consequence of our actions.

708
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:41,119
Speaker 6: And in this case, well.

709
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: My redline would be the government taking over reply Sat

710
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:45,239
Company and forcing them to make Tupper Aware. I mean,

711
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,679
I missed up Aware. It's a great product, but I

712
00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:49,440
think the market is spoken.

713
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 5: To man Donnie deciding to set up state run grocery stories.

714
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,800
I think that's all we never do. That we talk

715
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,159
about talk about the silliest idea in the world. You know,

716
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,960
the guy's like seeing grocery as a high margin industry

717
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:00,760
or something they're going to buy and bulk.

718
00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:05,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing new idea, Charles, you had one more before

719
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:05,639
I do.

720
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 4: What do you think is going to happen when Trump's

721
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,119
no longer in charge? So you've got three and a

722
00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:15,159
half years and then he leaves office. Now, just for

723
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:19,039
the sake of argument, for an intellectual exercise, I'm sure

724
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:22,000
media matters will love this. Assume that he leaves office

725
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,800
and dies peacefully the same day, so he's not a

726
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,599
king maker, but he's just gone. What do you think

727
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,039
happens on the right, Because Trump's obviously extremely powerful, he

728
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:35,239
has the ability to move voters. He moves people who

729
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,840
are devoted to him, but he also moves Median Republicans

730
00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:43,079
from one position to another seamlessly, and that makes it

731
00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:46,320
quite difficult to tell where the Republican Party is. Where

732
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,880
do you think it is? What do you think is

733
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,679
going to happen? Is it going to be a grand fight?

734
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,880
Will there be one candidate who's the old school Republican

735
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,639
and another who's the heir to Trump? What is being

736
00:35:55,679 --> 00:35:58,239
an heir to Trump? Like? Are you confident? Do you

737
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,440
think it's a complete open fight? Are we going to

738
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,760
go when Trump's not in charge of everything?

739
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:05,519
Speaker 5: I think I think it's as about, you know, giving

740
00:36:05,559 --> 00:36:10,280
an imagine an open seat in the role of leader

741
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,719
of the Republican Party and president's nominees open. It's going

742
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,280
to be about as determined a race as we've ever had.

743
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,599
It's going to be Vance. I think that it's really straightforward.

744
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,760
Vance has not just he's not just the sitting vice president,

745
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,360
a remarkably articulate speaker, very strong popularity ratings, and the

746
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,840
sort of competitors to Vance, I mean, the most obvious

747
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,360
one is Rubio. But I think it's just going to

748
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,760
be as simple as a Vance Rubio ticket in twenty eight.

749
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,639
I think that's really that. If it were anything but that,

750
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:42,519
I would be quite surprised. On the Republican side, I

751
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:45,800
don't think there's I think that this strategy of like

752
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,400
the old school Republican has been tried and it you know,

753
00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:51,440
NICKI Haley managed to clear out everybody else in the

754
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:55,119
lane of the sort of anti Trump or Trump's skeptical Republicans,

755
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,280
and her prize was nothing. Her prize was thirty percent

756
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,639
of the Republican primary vote, and that seventy percent was

757
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,400
going to be all Trump's. I think Vance, even in

758
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,880
the absence if Trump just disappears and doesn't endorse his

759
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,920
sitting vice president somehow, I think Vance represents that wing

760
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,960
of the party. I think that's the future of the party.

761
00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:17,119
And in a sense, we're in a strong position as

762
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:19,000
a result. We're kind of we're kind of set in

763
00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:21,239
terms of we have not just the leader of the party,

764
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,920
but also kind of the heir apparents waiting in line

765
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,519
and the Democrats as and so there's much more message

766
00:37:26,559 --> 00:37:28,840
uniformity and less infighting. I think you're seeing a lot

767
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,440
of craziness in the Democratic side as a result of

768
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,239
somebody trying to stand out, get a little more influence

769
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,039
in cachet and as a result saying more and more

770
00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:37,199
radical things that kind.

771
00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 6: Of drag them further and further away from the median voter.

772
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Newsom is doing a wonderful job with this. The

773
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,440
other day in the air he said that Donald Trump

774
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:46,119
is just not going to have the election at twenty

775
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:47,800
twenty eight. He's going to figure out a way to

776
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,679
cancel the elections. And you expected Newsome to say after that,

777
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,679
and that's why I'm running right, Okay, all right, fine? Great?

778
00:37:57,039 --> 00:38:01,119
So will the conference is going to be live streamed?

779
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:03,320
Will people be able to find it online? What's the

780
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:04,800
what's the website if they do?

781
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 5: All right, so National conservatism dot org is the website.

782
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,800
I don't believe there will be an active live stream,

783
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,800
but there will be plenty of clips and videos coming out.

784
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,599
You'll see them on x you'll see them on YouTube elsewhere.

785
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:17,639
But we just don't we don't do an immediate live

786
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,440
stream that you can just live watch it. The way

787
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,119
to watch it live is to attend, which is in Washington,

788
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:26,480
d C. On September second to fourth, that's next week

789
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:29,360
starting next Tuesday. There are tickets. It's an awesome conference.

790
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,280
I mean I've been going every year well before I

791
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,280
actually became joined the organization running the conference. It's been

792
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,159
them the best conference on the right from the word

793
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,559
go in terms of really yeah, well, you know, extremely

794
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:42,920
intellectually dynamic.

795
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: Washington, DC. All that violence and carjacking. Oh wait, not anymore.

796
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,039
I know somebody. If somebody asked me in Minneapolis whether

797
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:52,719
or not I would be, well, how would you feel

798
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,360
about the National Guard in your corner? And I thought

799
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,280
I would love It would have been great if they've

800
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,519
been there when I was Guyja karjacked in my driveway,

801
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:03,599
and I love to see it when they drop by

802
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:05,519
in twenty twenty after the city went up and play.

803
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:07,320
So yes, I can see an instance in which they

804
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,639
are useful. Will Chamberlain, thank you very much and good

805
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,920
luck with the conference, and we'll have you on again

806
00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:15,480
to talk about the Article three project and what that

807
00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:18,519
means for the future of American politics. Good to see you,

808
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:19,320
Thanks for dropping back.

809
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 3: Can I just add before you go, Will, but some

810
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,239
we haven't met in person, which is regret because I

811
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,639
want to shook hands with Wilt Chamberlain.

812
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: My hand.

813
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: No, and I want to shake hands with Will Chamberlain

814
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,880
just to keep my w Chamberlain's.

815
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: In all in one place.

816
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 6: Wonderful.

817
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,159
Speaker 2: Thanks wells for having me, guys, Bye bye. Of course

818
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:43,599
there's Richard Chamberlain, Dick. We don't want to share. So

819
00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,719
Ricochet is many things, and it's you know, it's such

820
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,000
as politics. If you ever go there, and if you're

821
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,360
a member and you go to the member of you

822
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,880
know that we discuss all matter of things, religion and arts.

823
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,840
We have wonderful threads on television and not just the

824
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,519
oh I remember that show, but I mean really insightsive

825
00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:02,800
things from people who know their business. It's great fun.

826
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:09,280
But there's also sports, and you're thinking, oh man sports, Yeah, yeah,

827
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,480
because it's a big part of America football. It is.

828
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,000
And I'm here with a man with a vastly inferior

829
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:19,400
team to my own Vikings Charles, why don't you tell

830
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,840
us about the fantasy football that's going on right now

831
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:23,599
at Ricochet.

832
00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 4: But you know, I'm actually, in a perverse sense routing

833
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,559
for the Vikings, or at least the Vikings offense, because

834
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,199
I am a Justin Jefferson fan, and my seven year

835
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,519
old is playing fantasy football this year. It's his first

836
00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:39,960
journey has Justin Jefferson, so on his behalf or have

837
00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:48,239
good Vikings too well. The Ricochet Fantasy Football Extravaganza has returned.

838
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,840
Last one was twenty twenty four, and this one's shockingly

839
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,960
is twenty twenty five. You have a few hours still

840
00:40:55,079 --> 00:41:01,039
to sign up. The draft is tomorrow, and if you

841
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:03,519
win your league, and we'll put together as many leagues

842
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:06,360
as we need depending on how many people sign up,

843
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,679
you will not just win the affection and admiration of

844
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,760
all of us, but fifty dollars. So you have fifty

845
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,800
dollars and the affection and admiration of all of us.

846
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,320
If you go to the homepage on Ricochet and you

847
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,320
look on the right, you'll see a little link looks

848
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,480
like a football and you can click it. Follow the instructions,

849
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:30,599
sign up, be in tomorrow, and then have five long

850
00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:33,079
months of joy and heartbreak.

851
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: Yes, well join heartbreak those two attributes of a Vikings

852
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,599
fan that we know quite well. Yeah. Go to rocchet

853
00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:44,719
check it out and also notice the subtle little changes.

854
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,599
There have been many subtle little changes, including the time face,

855
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,639
the headline, time face, and the rest of which all

856
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:54,559
part of what Charles does behind the scenes, tinkering and

857
00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:59,760
adjusting and getting out his code Scalpel and doing his work.

858
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,840
More to come on Ricochet, of course, but what's there already,

859
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,119
it's pretty darn great. I had a conversation, of course,

860
00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:09,079
in the Sight about flag burning executive order. So there

861
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:11,280
are two, there are two ideas, and this one. People

862
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,519
are saying, well, this is absolutely ridiculous. Some of this

863
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:15,960
is a matter of free speech. And then there were

864
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,320
those who said, actually, know this is this is a

865
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,400
clever little trap by Trump because he's not really changing

866
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,079
anything at all, and he's just making people go out

867
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:27,920
and burn flags to look silly. And an American I

868
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:32,159
didn't think it was something we particularly needed. But where

869
00:42:32,199 --> 00:42:33,159
do you guys stand on it?

870
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, if you actually read the executive order, it's

871
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,440
fairly narrow and tries to conform with the existing Supreme

872
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,679
Court President and say and connected to incitement for violence

873
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,119
or rioting, which may be a reach, I mean that

874
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:50,920
may not stand up legally. I do remember Ronald Reagan

875
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,760
when he was governor again around nineteen seventy. How do

876
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,119
we get the kids, how do we get the left

877
00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:59,360
to stop burning the flag, Well, why don't we subject

878
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,800
him to our antie air pollution regulations. And that'd be

879
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,199
one thing that Trump could propose to the EPA that

880
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,239
the liberals would oppose. They're all up in arms about

881
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,800
Trump and his EPA changes. But I think the real

882
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,039
trapier James is not that the left is going to

883
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:16,440
go out by the way. I think I've seen some

884
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,960
things online and some leftist groups are calling for some

885
00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:22,519
flag burning beings this weekend, so that part is working.

886
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:26,719
But I mean two thoughts. One is, you know, I

887
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,400
believe and Charles may disagree with me about this, we'll see.

888
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,880
I still think those flag burning cases were wrongly decided

889
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,280
low those many years ago, and I'm not sure the

890
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,199
current court would not rule differently. Remember those were five

891
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,239
to four cases. And the reason for this is it's

892
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,079
a long story. And so I'll just say in one sentence,

893
00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:47,880
I've always thought our First Amendment jurisprudence went off the

894
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,000
rails when it said free expression was the same as

895
00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:55,400
free speech, and that applies to not just flag burning,

896
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,440
but you know, naked dancing and things of that kind

897
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,239
of pornography and all the rest of that has gone

898
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,920
along for such a long time. However, it seems to

899
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,880
me that the right remedy, and here I bet Charles

900
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,320
will agree with me, is Republicans should propose a constitutional

901
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,480
amendment to ban flag burning. And then let's see how

902
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,800
many Democrats want to vote in favor of permitting flagburning

903
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,880
to continue by opposing the amendment. That would be fun too.

904
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,119
Speaker 4: All right, I'm going to be this quiesh.

905
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: It's my role today.

906
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,159
Speaker 4: I'm aware that I'm on the wrong side of the

907
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,679
public on this question. I do think a lot of

908
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,480
people who think those cases were rightly decided. I'm one

909
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,239
of those people need to understand that their position is unpopular.

910
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,360
I don't see any acknowledgement of this in the press,

911
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,199
and I think that has informed some of the coverage

912
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,360
of Trump because they don't understand it.

913
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,559
Speaker 2: This is a wage issue.

914
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 4: But first off, I think those cases were right. I

915
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,519
agree with you, Stev actually about the expression question. I

916
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,400
do think this is a tough one as well. When

917
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,679
the First Amendment was written, of course, it only applied

918
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,480
to the federal government, so you have to go through

919
00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:07,719
an enormous amount of law to get to the application

920
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,000
of the First Amendment to the states, and of course,

921
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:15,039
in the original Constitution there is no enumerated power that

922
00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,960
would allow the federal government to prosecute flag burning at all,

923
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,440
so it wouldn't have come up. So it's quite difficult

924
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:23,920
to discern what the original public meaning was in this area.

925
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,119
But I think given that enormous numbers of Americans during

926
00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:33,800
the Alien Tedition Acts burned John Jay and effigy, there

927
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:39,360
was a tradition of burning even effigies of people to

928
00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:43,199
protest government policy, even on war, which was where the

929
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,000
government was strictest in the colonial and post colonial eras,

930
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,159
so I think the case was just about right. More

931
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:52,519
than that, though, this is why I say I'm a squish.

932
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,880
I loath people have burned the American flag, and I

933
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,519
would never do it myself. Very proud immigrant, but I

934
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:05,400
do think that passing laws that empower the national government

935
00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:08,400
to prosecute people for burning flags is ultimately a sign

936
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,519
of under confidence, and an unnecessary one given the way

937
00:46:11,519 --> 00:46:14,679
in which Americans revere the flag and do so organically

938
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:21,000
without legal mandate. We know who the people we hate are.

939
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:26,280
They're the people you just mentioned respond to Trump's order

940
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,079
by going out and burning flags. Those people suck. I

941
00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:33,920
quite like the fact that they have this way of

942
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,360
segregating themselves from the rest of us by doing stupid things,

943
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,119
and I think to try to use the force of

944
00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:41,199
law to stop them doing it, to me is a

945
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,039
sign of civilizational under confidence. It's just unnecessary. I don't think,

946
00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:47,800
as some people have said, that we would lose something

947
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:50,840
as a society people couldn't burn flags. I don't think

948
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,559
that it is valuable speech. It's also not debate. It's

949
00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:58,000
not a marketplace of ideas question. But I am ultimately

950
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,119
of the view that America and it's lag can stand

951
00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:04,559
without government force, and it would be fine if there

952
00:47:04,559 --> 00:47:06,599
was an amendment that's the right way to do it. It

953
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,400
will be fine. Off the Court overturned that. It's not

954
00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:13,400
a core case, but it's just not something that I

955
00:47:13,559 --> 00:47:16,760
particularly worry about on the amendments. The order itself that

956
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,039
Trump wrote, it's very odd because on the one hand,

957
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:24,199
it seems to completely acknowledge all of the Supreme Court cases.

958
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:30,320
On the other hand, it is potentially a problem because

959
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,400
he implies in it that he's going to start using

960
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:36,400
whether one burned a flag as the gateway to look

961
00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:42,199
into other crimes, and that might have under current jurisprudence

962
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,679
that might have some issues.

963
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: Right.

964
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,679
Speaker 4: You can't, for example, say well, we can't prosecute you

965
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,760
for your political opinions, but we can see what crimes

966
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,679
you're committing while expressing them. If you only look into

967
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,400
those people, then you fall a foul of the law.

968
00:47:56,559 --> 00:47:59,280
So if that is how it's enforced, maybe problematic, But

969
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,239
I actually think it and do anything. I think Trump

970
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,280
wants to be seen to be doing this rather than

971
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,840
actually violating the constitutional mandate.

972
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 2: I want to pick and choose. I agree with Steven

973
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,800
that the shift from speech to expression did open up

974
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,480
a Pandora's box that said, I'm not willing to close

975
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,039
it because there are things of expressions that our speech.

976
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,320
And I sided mostly with Charles on this one too.

977
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,119
I mean to spend all the time and energy on

978
00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:25,159
a constitutional amendment. I think those should be rare and necessary,

979
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,000
and I've got a few others i'd like to see

980
00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:29,559
cuta before that one. But a person burning a flag

981
00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:33,320
tells you everything about them at that point in time.

982
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,239
I don't want the government to tell me that I

983
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,480
cannot burn any emblem of authority, idea, creed, etc. Whatever.

984
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,760
If I want to be that jerk. Then then I'm

985
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,199
going to be that jerk, and it's not their role

986
00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:46,280
to tell me that I can't. And he asked everybody saying, yeah,

987
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,679
you can burn in the backyard if you want. I

988
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,159
get that. I get that, And yes, it is incitement,

989
00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:53,400
and if maybe perhaps an executive order that says that

990
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,519
if anybody is incited by the sight of a burning

991
00:48:57,559 --> 00:49:00,880
flag and therefore stamps the fire out and in the

992
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,760
process does the same to the person holding it. I mean, sorry,

993
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,199
he was just in the way as I was stamping

994
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:09,960
out the fire. It's it's it's not a it's not

995
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,480
a big burning issue. Sorry, I didn't mean to say that.

996
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,280
What is. However, probably this was strike some people as

997
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,320
proof of my madness, seedlectivity and efeat sensibilities. But I was,

998
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,719
you know, strugging my shoulders at the burning of the flag.

999
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,280
But I got really excited about the executive order that

1000
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,880
mandated the Federal Classical style of buildings. This is something

1001
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,159
that trun tried to do in the first administration, and

1002
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,960
I and Biden overturned it. And the thing is, you know,

1003
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,320
having a conversation just the other night about this about

1004
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,639
how architecture sort of broke the social compact with people

1005
00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:48,360
after the war, and we developed these these increasingly inhuman

1006
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,280
scale buildings and styles. It's better now. It's not as

1007
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,920
bad as it was in the seventies when it was really,

1008
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,840
really bad. Somebody had a beautiful Twitter throw it the

1009
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,519
other day where they said, you know, this is my

1010
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,519
one strange architec actual preference. I will die on this hill,

1011
00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:06,880
and that is brutalism with lots of vegetation. And he

1012
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,119
had a point that when you actually drape these things

1013
00:50:09,159 --> 00:50:11,760
in jungles, there's a certain certain power and beauty to it.

1014
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,000
But I prefer that they weren't there at all. The

1015
00:50:15,039 --> 00:50:18,119
best example would seem to me to be the thumb

1016
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,880
that is Obama's library, which looms over this neighborhood like

1017
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,239
some soul sucking machine that's been dropped out by the

1018
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:30,000
necromancers in orbit. It's a ghastly thing. And I this

1019
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:33,039
probably would not have been affected by that. But yeah,

1020
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:35,199
when they're putting something small in a little town, a

1021
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:37,719
little post office, one of those embassies of the empire,

1022
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,960
and that reaches into the small corner, don't just put

1023
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:43,719
up a ball, you know, dull brick international style whatever, boy,

1024
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,760
give it some grace, even if the columns aren't true,

1025
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,280
even if they're just pilasters, and it looks like some

1026
00:50:50,599 --> 00:50:53,760
you know, in nineteen thirty stripped down government. F you know,

1027
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,599
a modern style that's better than something that's just been

1028
00:50:57,639 --> 00:51:01,280
snipped and disconnected from human history. So that's I'm okay

1029
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,960
with that. There really am you, guys, James.

1030
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 4: You know what I find really weird. I remember Trump

1031
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,559
doing this in his first term. I did a whole

1032
00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:15,000
podcast with a guy who is obsessed with his topic.

1033
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 2: Justin Schuber. How is that the guy?

1034
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1035
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,039
Speaker 4: I think he was on the Ricorchet podcast too, Is

1036
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:21,159
he probably?

1037
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1038
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: I hope so ye.

1039
00:51:23,119 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 4: And I'm still baffled by the contention that I hear

1040
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,320
from progressives that classical architecture is fascist but brutalist architecture

1041
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:43,079
is democratic because classical architecture comes from Greece, and the

1042
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:47,760
early Republic in the United States based its capital on

1043
00:51:48,039 --> 00:51:54,079
it for a reason, and brutalist architecture has mostly been

1044
00:51:54,159 --> 00:52:00,400
the preserve of the worst regimes in history, and building

1045
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,960
for the masses, not building for the masses, is sometimes necessary.

1046
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,280
I don't think it's inherently fascistic or anything. But it's

1047
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,719
not individualistic to put up concrete blocks. So how can

1048
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,519
they say that that is the complete opposite of the truth.

1049
00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:14,679
Where do they get that idea?

1050
00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:18,039
Speaker 3: Well, Charlie, you put your finger on a key point

1051
00:52:18,039 --> 00:52:21,119
that really does not get much public recognition. I was

1052
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,960
also stunned at the reaction of you might say, modernist

1053
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,679
architects to Trump's first term directives to build in the

1054
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:27,480
federal style.

1055
00:52:28,039 --> 00:52:28,599
Speaker 2: And they like to.

1056
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 3: And by the way, Jane, it's not just the seventies architecture,

1057
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,920
but some recent big federal courthouses.

1058
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: Which have huge projects are just awful.

1059
00:52:36,039 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 3: Yes, And I mean I do think that, you know,

1060
00:52:40,039 --> 00:52:43,639
the architecture not just people prefer efficiency or you know,

1061
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:47,280
they're trying to unleash their interflank brank wade right or something.

1062
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:49,880
I think that as part of the cultural rot we

1063
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,480
see in the humanities and social sciences and so many

1064
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:56,280
other places. I never perceived that. But justin Schubacht, maybe

1065
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,719
we should have him back again. He's in the middle

1066
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,239
of all this with the Trump administry. He really opened

1067
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,400
my eyes to the fact that this is not just

1068
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,039
a matter of architectural taste. It's actually a deeper, more

1069
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:10,960
significant aspect of our culture war right.

1070
00:53:11,119 --> 00:53:13,199
Speaker 2: What they're doing is they're severing the public sphere from

1071
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,679
any relationship to something that went before you know, you could.

1072
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:18,679
The point was made that if you looked at the

1073
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,639
cities of England after the war, you would think that

1074
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:23,000
they'd been bombed, but no, they've been leveled by actual

1075
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:26,119
by the council to build something that was anti human.

1076
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:30,800
The deliberate desire to take people and sever the relationship

1077
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,639
between the forms of the past is seen as a

1078
00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:35,920
way of bringing about this better world, because the old

1079
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,920
world was what do we get from the old world?

1080
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,280
We got World War One, we got destruction, we got devastation.

1081
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:44,599
They associated with Western culture, which is white, which is

1082
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:47,400
all of these things that have brought such unending misery

1083
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,440
to the world. So if you are one of those

1084
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,239
people who has, you know, a marble statue in your

1085
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,840
Twitter profile, well, first of all, you're probably a guy

1086
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:59,039
in India somewhere who's doing a bot farm. But if

1087
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:01,119
you're one of those people who wants to return to

1088
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:04,239
certain sets of values, they see this as all right

1089
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,880
wing coded dog whistle hh eight eight Here comes, you know,

1090
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,400
here comes the most horrible form of nationalism, violence and

1091
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,599
ethnic supremacy. You can imagine when no, we just it's beautiful.

1092
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,719
It's beautiful and it's of our and we respond to

1093
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,960
it in ways that go deep. So, yeah, what are

1094
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:28,880
we doing this show today? Nationalism and old and classical

1095
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,320
architecture ideas that used to be mainstream in the old days,

1096
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,400
but now apparently patrias is way out there. So I'm

1097
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,920
pretty sure we're gonna get taken down it by YouTube

1098
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,000
and Twitter before the day is out. But if you

1099
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,159
found yourself listening to this, we thank you for that.

1100
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,599
If you found yourself thinking, hey, bank on yourself, I

1101
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:46,280
had to check that out. Do so support us by

1102
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,760
becoming part of the best part of the You know

1103
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,599
you can be you. You can be the best part of

1104
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:53,519
Ricochet if you just go there and sign up. Take

1105
00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:55,360
a minute to give us a five star review on

1106
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,320
Apple Podcasts if you would, and then send me proof

1107
00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,840
of it in the form of a screenshot, and I

1108
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,639
will give you. I got a coffee canyon for pennies

1109
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:06,199
here that I have to take to the store and

1110
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,960
pull down and poured down the coin stars apout. But

1111
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,760
if you do that, you get all the pennies. I'm

1112
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,039
kidding this opera is not legally binding. I should shut

1113
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:15,960
up before I get us in more trouble. Charles been

1114
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,840
a pleasure, Stephen as always, and hey everybody, we'll see

1115
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,199
you in the comments. At Rik Aschet, what is it now?

1116
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:22,440
What is the version?

1117
00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 4: I think it's four point fourteen point.

1118
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:29,079
Speaker 2: Two, four point fourteen point two and actually right four

1119
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:33,039
point fourteen point two b by the time this is up.

1120
00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:35,360
Thank you everybody, See you next week. Bye bye,