1 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: And we're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,960 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist and 3 00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:29,039 your experienced Shirpa on today's Quest for Knowledge. As always, 4 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:31,879 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist 5 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,359 dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, make 6 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:39,799 sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and of 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,600 course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,960 I'm delighted to be joined today by the original originalist 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,560 Georgetown University law professor Randy Barnett. From prosecuting murders in 10 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:59,679 Chicago to arguing before the Supreme Court to authoring more 11 00:00:59,679 --> 00:01:03,439 than a dozen books, Randy Burnett has played an integral 12 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:09,040 role in the rise of originalism, the movement to identify, restore, 13 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,959 and defend the original meaning of the Constitution. Thanks in 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,760 parts in part to his efforts, by twenty eighteen, a 15 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:21,439 majority of the sitting Supreme Court justice is self identified 16 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:27,000 as originalist. His new memoir, A Life for Liberty, The 17 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,599 Making of an American Originalist, is now available. It has 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,439 been a long journey to restore the lost Constitution, and 19 00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:39,319 we are going to delve into Randy, thank you so 20 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,480 much for joining us on the Federalist Radio Hour today. Well, 21 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:43,519 thanks for having me, Matt. 22 00:01:43,799 --> 00:01:46,079 Speaker 2: I have been on the show many times over the years, 23 00:01:46,159 --> 00:01:48,760 especially when Ben was the host, and it's a pleasure 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,239 to make a return to the show. 25 00:01:50,719 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely, we're so glad to have you with us. We're 26 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,239 going to get into your memoir in just a bit, 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,200 but let's start with a few headlines. The first of course, 28 00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:03,439 being President Joe's announcement this week that he'd like to 29 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:06,640 fiddle with something that's been in placed for a long time, 30 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:12,199 and that's his idea of term limits for the Supreme Court. 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,560 Wanted to get your first thoughts on that. 32 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: Front, right Well, I testified in front of the Presidential 33 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,039 Commission on the Supreme Court the last year or maybe 34 00:02:22,039 --> 00:02:24,199 two years ago, it's hard to remember. Time goes fast, 35 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:28,599 and I argued to them that the court packing or 36 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,120 court expansion scheme that was then being discussed, as well 37 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,319 as term limits, were unconstitutional. They were not only bad ideas, 38 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:38,759 they were unconstitutional and what the eventually what they actually 39 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,840 do is pose a fundamental threat to our form of government. 40 00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:46,520 I think they may have unintentionally handed the Trump a 41 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,240 dvance campaign a gift because I do think that the 42 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,639 philosophy of the Democratic Party is a threat to our 43 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,039 constitutional republic. It has been demonstrated to be so in 44 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,240 the past, but it would be hard to sort of 45 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:05,120 make that issue salient in this cycle, except they just 46 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:09,560 did that. And now with Yale Law School graduate JD. 47 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,800 Vance on the ticket, I think he would be more 48 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,560 than capable of explaining how our form of government works 49 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,960 and how the Democrats want to eliminate any obstacle that 50 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,319 stands in their way of getting the exact progressive results 51 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:25,560 that they seek. Beat at the Supreme Court, be it 52 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:32,759 at the Electoral College, be that same day voting, that voting, voting, ID, 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,520 you name it. If it gets if they think it's 54 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,199 getting in their way, they're prepared to eliminate it. And 55 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:42,599 now they have made this matter of record in the 56 00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:45,759 middle of a hundred day run up into the presidential campaign. 57 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:49,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, we certainly have seen that over and over again, 58 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:53,719 and it becomes more pressing now, obviously with the short 59 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:57,199 timetable up into the election. Let me read you what 60 00:03:58,759 --> 00:04:01,840 President Biden had about this. Biden, in an op ed 61 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:05,840 published in The Washington Post, said he has quote great 62 00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:11,280 respect for our institutions and separation of powers, But it's 63 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:15,240 always a butt. What is happening now is not normal, 64 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:19,439 and it undermines the public's confidence in the Court's decisions, 65 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:24,920 including those impacting personal freedoms. We now stand in the 66 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:28,959 breach like all Democrats, the Democrat Party, which of course 67 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,279 is going around telling everybody that it's Donald Trump, and 68 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,680 the Republicans threatening democracy as they go around trying to 69 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,680 throw their opponents off ballots into prisons. But that said, 70 00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:47,439 such dramatic language, are we indeed in the breach? Are 71 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,199 these not normal times? As well? 72 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: They are not normal times. We have the orchestrated a 73 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,040 law fair campaign against the former president of the United States, 74 00:04:58,079 --> 00:05:01,040 who is the front runner, who's now the candidate of 75 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:04,560 one of the major two major parties, being prosecuted around 76 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,279 the country on extremely sketchy legal theories that almost everyone 77 00:05:09,319 --> 00:05:12,839 will admit are extremely sketchy, with the exception possibly of 78 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:15,560 the document's case in Florida. But there he's being prosecuted 79 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,839 by a sketchy prosecutor who had a sketchy appointment. And 80 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,399 so it is absolutely unprecedented in this country, not in 81 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:27,680 other countries, but in this country for the party in 82 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:31,160 power to attempt to enlist the legal system against the 83 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:35,240 party out of power and put them behind bars, which 84 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,399 is really exactly what we've been witnessing through like several 85 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,680 years of the Biden administration. So I do think we're 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:48,480 actually at constitutional crossroads here. If that behavior is rewarded 87 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:52,600 at the election at the ballot box in November, we're 88 00:05:52,639 --> 00:05:57,399 in big, big trouble. And President Biden should be very 89 00:05:57,439 --> 00:06:01,000 grateful to the Supreme Court suggesting that he may have 90 00:06:01,079 --> 00:06:05,120 some immunity attached to some of his exercise of official duties, 91 00:06:05,199 --> 00:06:09,920 because if President Trump were elected, I could imagine him 92 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:16,000 deciding to go after President Biden for various reco violations. 93 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,920 He's committed to thwart public confidence and whatever whatever theory 94 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:22,800 you might want to come up with, I predict such 95 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,720 theories would be more sound than the ones that are 96 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,040 being used to pursue Donald Trump. But the Supreme Court 97 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,199 is somewhat cut that short in their Immunity's decision, in 98 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,720 which they basically try to end this downward spiral that's 99 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,560 been initiated by the Democrats in criminalizing their political opponents. 100 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: Well, is that why it's so abundantly important, not that 101 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:48,600 it isn't always important for the power hungry to hang 102 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:53,720 on to power. But why they need this election victory 103 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,319 by hook or crook, because if not, they could face 104 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:05,199 quite reckoning. Although as you noted, the Supreme Court has 105 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:09,680 done Joe Biden an invaluable. 106 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,879 Speaker 2: Favor well, the Republicans have no track record in subjecting 107 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,920 the Democrats to a reckoning, So that would require even 108 00:07:17,959 --> 00:07:20,360 for the Trump administer a different kind of Trump administration 109 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:23,560 than we saw during his first time. And we can 110 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,079 only speculate about how resolute they would be to do 111 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,399 to the Democrats what the Democrats have been attempting to 112 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:33,240 do them. But what I would really rather see, and 113 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:36,759 is where we started this show, is a restoration of 114 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,040 the American Constitutional Order, which would include all the missing 115 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:45,319 parts of the Constitution and then to follow those parts 116 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:50,480 under the originalist doctrine that the meaning of the Constitution 117 00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:54,120 should remain the same until it's properly changed by amendment. 118 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,000 That is what I've been fighting for, really ever since 119 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:01,120 the nineteen nineties, when I transition from being a contracts 120 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,319 professor after having been a criminal prosecutor in Chicago, I 121 00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:07,600 transitioned to being a contracts professor and then sort of gradually, 122 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:14,040 despite my better judgment, got dragged into constitutional law in 123 00:08:14,079 --> 00:08:16,879 a process that I described in the book A Life 124 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:17,439 for Liberty. 125 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: Speaking of where you started and law and order, what 126 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,959 say you of the city around which you grew up? 127 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I was a very proud Cook County 128 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,879 States Attorney when I went to law school. I went 129 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,080 to law school to become a criminal trial lawyer, be 130 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,080 it a defense lawyer or a prosecutor, but I wanted 131 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,720 to be a state court trial lawyer, prosecuting murder cases 132 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:47,960 or defending against murder cases. By the time I was 133 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,639 half way through law school, I had decided I preferred 134 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:53,600 to be on the prosecution side, in part because at 135 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,240 that time Chicago had a very straight and that is 136 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,320 not corrupt prosecution office that was run under a Republican 137 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,799 administration really by Bernard Carey, the Democrats. The Public Defender's 138 00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:09,279 Office was actually very politicized. It wasn't corrupt, but it 139 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,440 was very politicized. So you'd only got a head in 140 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,399 that office if you had political cloud. I had no 141 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,360 political cloud in the State's Attorney's office. You could get 142 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:20,799 ahead on merit and so that, plus the fact that 143 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,879 the prosecutor's ethical duty is to do justice, whereas the 144 00:09:23,879 --> 00:09:27,120 defense attorney's ethical duty is to zealously defend the interest 145 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,000 of their client, which is absolutely essential to the proper 146 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,159 functioning of our criminal justice system. I felt more comfortable 147 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,879 on the side of having my portfolio be achieving justice, 148 00:09:38,879 --> 00:09:42,720 whether that meant convicting or acquitting or letting go somebody 149 00:09:42,759 --> 00:09:46,559 who was accused with inadequate evidence. So okay, So we 150 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,039 were very proud of our office, and we were very 151 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,399 proud of our ability to put the bad guys who 152 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,000 are convicted, who are proven bad to be behind bars. 153 00:09:55,039 --> 00:09:57,080 We would not have lost the OJ case if that 154 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,240 had happened in Cook County when I was there and 155 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:01,879 my supervib I would not have been able. I would 156 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:03,399 not have been the one trying that case, but my 157 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,799 supervisors would. The supervisors that prosecuted John Wayne Gacy, for example, 158 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,840 if they had prosecuted OJ, OJ would have been convicted. 159 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,000 That's how we were really good. And it is just 160 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:18,240 a tragic shame what has happened to the Cook County 161 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,320 State's Attorney's office under the direction of the current state's 162 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,960 attorney and some of her top assistants have left the 163 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,080 office vocally stating that they're leaving the office because of 164 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,679 the way it's being run and to the detriment of 165 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:35,919 the people of the City of Chicago and the County 166 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,279 of Cook in which the City of Chicago resides. 167 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: Chicago, Cook County not alone in that, of course, We're 168 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,720 seeing this across the country. We're seeing this change in prosecution, 169 00:10:49,159 --> 00:10:53,960 in the mission, the state admission and infusing politics into 170 00:10:54,039 --> 00:10:58,480 local prosecutions. One need look no further than Manhattan and 171 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:04,039 Alvin Bragg, who campaigned his campaign was on going after 172 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,960 former President Donald Trump. At the same time he has 173 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:14,200 released criminals been involved in all kinds of leftist reforms. 174 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,639 But again, Manhattan, Chicago not alone. This is happening all 175 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:23,679 over the country. How do we check this and move 176 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:29,000 back to sound prosecution and originalist ideas well. 177 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: There's no easy answer to this question. I luckily our 178 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,679 Constitution has preserved federalism as one of the features of 179 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,279 our constitutional order, and that means that if you don't 180 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:41,919 like the policies that are happening in your jurisdiction, you 181 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,279 can vote with your feet and leave that jurisdiction. I 182 00:11:44,519 --> 00:11:48,080 was a resident of the District of Columbia. Ever since 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,480 I joined the Georgetown faculty in two thousand and six, 184 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:52,960 I proudly lived within the city. Some of my colleagues 185 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,159 lived in the suburbs. They lived in Maryland or Virginia. 186 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,279 I lived in the district itself, but during COVID, left 187 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,039 the district and became a resident of the state of Florida, 188 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,440 in part because I couldn't stand the atmosphere during COVID 189 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,039 that was in the district as compared to Central Virginia, 190 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:14,279 where I spend part of my year, and the Gulf 191 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,960 Coast of Florida, where I spend the other part of 192 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,039 my year. And in part because now because of the 193 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:25,120 rising crime, the carjackings that are endemic in the District 194 00:12:25,159 --> 00:12:27,919 of Columbia, so I have to go in to teach. 195 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,840 I have to go into the district and in my 196 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,080 car and park in my parking lot and then teach 197 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,120 my course. But the salad days of d C, where 198 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,519 I could feel comfortable walking at all hours of the 199 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,080 night through most of northwest d C. Those days are over, 200 00:12:44,159 --> 00:12:47,080 and the best way to I could help myself was 201 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,159 to absent myself from the jurisdiction. I have no say 202 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,759 over what the postile polace, the criminal justice policies are 203 00:12:53,799 --> 00:12:57,320 in DC or New York or San Francisco, those voters 204 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,080 are the ones that are going to have to decide. 205 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,559 And you know, you know, this is like what hl 206 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,039 Mankin said. You know, democracy is giving it to the voters, 207 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,679 good and hard what they want. So they have decided 208 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,759 what they wanted, and until they wise up, that's what 209 00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:14,159 they're going to get good and hard. 210 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: Can people really not afford McDonald's the washed Out on 211 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:23,879 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps 212 00:13:23,919 --> 00:13:26,559 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 213 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,720 it affects your wallet. McDonald says they're missing revenue as 214 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,360 they have to lower their prices even more. Why the 215 00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:35,519 consumers are pulling back if things are so good? Why 216 00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:38,960 are credit card delinquencies hitting a twelve year high. Whether 217 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,919 it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's 218 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,000 affecting you financially. 219 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: Be informed. 220 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,799 Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 221 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,879 Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 222 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,519 Speaker 1: Well and very well stated, of course, and that's where 223 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,320 the times in which we live. So with that, let's 224 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,799 talk about your new memoir. I think it's fascinating, you know, 225 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:08,279 because not only do you talk about what is affecting 226 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,759 America right now, it's how we got here, and you 227 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,960 talk about a long journey to restore the lost Constitution. 228 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:24,480 You've been involved in some remarkable cases in that mission 229 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,399 along the way, But let's begin with how it all 230 00:14:29,639 --> 00:14:33,279 started for you and how you got to this point. 231 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 3: Well. 232 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: Thanks. I have had the privilege of being deeply enmeshed 233 00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:42,279 in two different intellectual movements. One is the libertarian political movement, 234 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,120 which I became aware of but then enmeshed in when 235 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,519 I was a law student, and the other is the 236 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:53,039 conservative legal movement, of which I'm a part, which ultimately 237 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:57,600 took originalism as one of its key principles or precepts. 238 00:14:57,639 --> 00:14:59,840 Of the conservative legal movement, I've sort of been there 239 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,639 for from the whole during the whole time, developing the 240 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:06,799 intellectual case for these views, but not just the case 241 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,720 for it, just trying to figure out what actually are 242 00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:12,960 the positions. These positions don't define themselves, they need intellectual framework. 243 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,360 People have to do that work, and as in a 244 00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:18,200 division of labor, that has been my job as an academic. 245 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,279 But how I got there. How I started my path 246 00:15:22,159 --> 00:15:24,639 was essentially under the influence of my father, who was 247 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:28,639 a political conservative, a Jewish political conservative, growing up in 248 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:32,080 Catholic a Jewish kid in Catholic calume At City, Catholic 249 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,320 and somewhat Protestant calumat City, and my graduating class of 250 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:38,720 four hundred there were four Jews at the same time. 251 00:15:38,879 --> 00:15:42,519 I was also the conservative kid in my synagogue in 252 00:15:42,519 --> 00:15:45,919 ham in Indiana, where the progressive Jews, the liberal Jews 253 00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:49,559 from Munster and Hammond went. So I was kind of 254 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:52,559 not quite right for calumme At City, but also not 255 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,440 quite right for the Jewish community as well. And I 256 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,879 was a happy kid. I had a happy childhood. I 257 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:01,159 think if you've read the book, know that I'm not complaining. 258 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,200 If anything, I was benefited from the fact that never 259 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,480 being one hundred percent a part of the group I 260 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,639 was in allowed me to be a little more detached 261 00:16:08,679 --> 00:16:11,159 about the nature of the group. And that is a 262 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,600 skill that really comes in handy if you want to 263 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,519 be an academic. If you want to be an intellectual, 264 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:16,840 you don't have to be an academic, but if you 265 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,639 want to be intellectual and opine about what's going on, 266 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,679 it's sort of important to be a little detached from 267 00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:23,559 what's going on so you can see it more clearly. 268 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:26,600 And I've had that benefit starting with my dad, who 269 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:30,919 was a political conservative and a contrarian by nature. At 270 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:33,840 the age of twelve, I debated on behalf of very 271 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,360 Goldwater in front of my entire junior high school and 272 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:40,279 grade school student body, several hundred students in the school gym. 273 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,240 I still remember, and in writing this book, I have 274 00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,799 actually slept around from basement debasement boxes and boxes of 275 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:50,000 papers and memorabilia all these years, with no real idea 276 00:16:50,039 --> 00:16:52,360 of what I would ever use them for. But for example, 277 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:54,480 I was able to produce my debate notes from when 278 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,240 I was twelve years old, and I was able to 279 00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,960 quote how I my summation of that debate because I 280 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,279 actually had a copy of it still in my record. 281 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,039 So that's how it got started. But my course to 282 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,440 being a lawyer started with a television show that came 283 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,599 on when I was ten years old. Came on when 284 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,480 I was nine. By the time I was ten years old, 285 00:17:13,519 --> 00:17:15,440 I had decided that this is what I wanted to do, 286 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,599 and it was a show called The Defenders, which I 287 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,440 was about a father Son Criminal Defense Team in New York, 288 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,799 very gritty, very realistic, filmed on location in New York, 289 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,200 which was somewhat unusual for a dramatic series in those days, 290 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,799 starring E. G. Marshall as the father and Robert Reid 291 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:33,720 as the son. And unlike Perry Mason, which we watched 292 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:36,200 every Sunday and which was about solving murders and didn't 293 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,359 mean anything to me, this was a story about being 294 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,000 a lawyer. And it was when I saw that television 295 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:42,359 show I thought, well, that's what I want to be. 296 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,839 I want to be a lawyer. And to me what 297 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,920 that meant was I wanted to be a criminal trial lawyer, 298 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,240 which is ultimately what I decided to do. But in 299 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:53,559 between that and becoming criminal lawyer, I discovered philosophy when 300 00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:55,680 I was in college. I didn't even know there was 301 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,079 such a thing when I was in high school and 302 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,640 discovering philosophy and political theory, I realized there's a whole 303 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,119 discipline there which I could talk about justice and the 304 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,960 rule of law and liberty as part of that being 305 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,039 an academic. And it was my mentor in college, Henry Veach, 306 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,640 who was my philosophy professor, that sort of planted the 307 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,200 seed in my mind that I might want to be 308 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:22,640 a professor. And I also my recollection was that I 309 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,480 just made that decision sometime during law school. But in 310 00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:27,119 the course of writing the book, I found my law 311 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,000 school applications and I saw that when I was applying 312 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,759 to Harvard and other schools, I said, I think I 313 00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:34,240 want to be a law professor teach jurisprudence about the 314 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,079 philosophy of law someday. So I already had that idea 315 00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:39,400 in mind. I didn't know how hard it was going 316 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,079 to be to transition from being criminal prosecutor in Cook County, 317 00:18:43,079 --> 00:18:46,519 Illinois to being a law professor. It's not actually the 318 00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:49,880 source of many academics and intellectuals being a county prosecutor 319 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,400 like I was, But I managed to do it. And 320 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:54,480 one thing I would say about the book for your 321 00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:58,160 listeners is that it was a book that is written 322 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,680 to try to help young people see how you can 323 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:04,079 make a life for yourself with in the realm of 324 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,200 ideas and pursuing justice your vision of justice, and overcome 325 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,839 the obstacles that are in your way, and obstacles sometimes 326 00:19:12,839 --> 00:19:15,319 of your own creation, just because of your background and 327 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,440 your upbringing and just not knowing how it's done. I 328 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,240 had to overcome a lot and including my own mistakes, 329 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,519 which I'm very candid about in this book in the 330 00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:28,799 hopes that it will encourage younger people to chart their 331 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,599 own path the way I did, because they can see 332 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,079 that if you play your cards right, and sometimes even 333 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:36,599 if you don't play your cards right, you could actually 334 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,640 end up winning a jackpot and having a fantastic life 335 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,359 in which you help make the world a better place. 336 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,759 Speaker 1: Well, any kid who stands up for very Goldwater on 337 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,400 a seat at the table of the bold, that's for 338 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:54,400 sure that you didn't quote from. 339 00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:56,279 Speaker 2: Buying my twelve year old In my twelve year old heart, 340 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:57,359 I knew he was right. 341 00:19:57,519 --> 00:19:59,839 Speaker 1: Yes you did. You knew he was right as the 342 00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:05,960 f goats. You didn't quote from Bob Dylan's version of 343 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,279 the Barry Goldwater song. 344 00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: I would assume I, actually, I don't know that. What 345 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:11,839 is that? 346 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,039 Speaker 1: The line I believe is if you think I'm gonna 347 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:22,319 let you date my daughter something about Barry Goldwater, now, 348 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:24,359 I'm gonna google that. 349 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: When we're off the air. 350 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,079 Speaker 1: I will send that to you because I think it's 351 00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:30,519 it may even be talking World War three Blues. 352 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,559 Speaker 2: But for the times I was never about Dylan fan. 353 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:36,880 I mean in college. I describe in the book the 354 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,960 culture clash between me and the progress of the liberals 355 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:44,000 kids that I lived in who actually I was at Northwestern, 356 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,839 but they were from Scarsdale in Westchester County, and they 357 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,279 sort of got it in their head that I was 358 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:50,640 the other and the bad guy because I like television 359 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,119 and I was conservative and whatever. But one of the schisms, 360 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:57,480 or one of the fissures that I detected back in 361 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,200 those days between the cool kids and other kids is 362 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,319 that the cool kids all like singers that couldn't sing. Yes, 363 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:06,759 that was the So that's why Bob Dylan was great, 364 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:11,160 and Van Morrison was great, and who else who can't sing? 365 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:12,720 There was a whole bunch of them that can't sing, 366 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,119 and they were the cool ones. And if you actually 367 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,640 like the Moody Blues, or if you like Elo, or 368 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,599 if you like one of those what I now call 369 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,880 prog rock bands, that was not cool at all. So anyway, 370 00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:27,440 Bob Dylan was on the other side of this divide, 371 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,680 of this cultural divide. 372 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: Indeed, it's like coffee and radio personalities acquired taste. To 373 00:21:35,759 --> 00:21:40,440 say the leadst. Yes, we are having a conversation and 374 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,680 enjoying it immensely about where we stand in this country 375 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,440 in terms of the battle over the Constitution, what it 376 00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:54,400 means to us, and what it means to be an originalist. 377 00:21:54,519 --> 00:22:00,359 And we are talking to the original originalist. Georgetown Univerity 378 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:06,359 law professor Randy Barnett. His excellent new book, A Life 379 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,319 for Liberty The Making of an American Originalist available now. 380 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,519 It's a memoir. You really do get into how events 381 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,920 your life defined where you are today. You talk about 382 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,799 the battles for younger folks who want to be involved 383 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:29,440 in a legal career. Some of those battles, of course, 384 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,319 are coming from the individuals in the groups that are 385 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,640 overseeing them on college campuses across the country. Of course, 386 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:41,359 the legal organizations that are supposed to be the experts. 387 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,000 And what did we learn during the COVID era about 388 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:51,839 the experts? They very often can be wrong, and willfully so. 389 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:58,319 How difficult is that now for younger attorneys, younger individuals 390 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,680 entering the law profession. 391 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think if you read the book, you'll see 392 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,920 that it's always been that way, at least was that 393 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,640 way when I was in law school. Which is in 394 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,079 the nineteen seventies, I was being taught by sometimes hard 395 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,000 left people. At the very minimum they were liberals, and 396 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:17,079 then they were to the left of liberals. I had 397 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,079 Morton Horowitz, who founded the Critical Legal Studies movement, in 398 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,319 Roberto Hungar who followed. They founded the Critical Legal Studies movement. 399 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,599 I had some really good professors, and I learned from 400 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,920 these guys. But it was like that then, and I 401 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,039 went into resistance mode as a law student. And I 402 00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,759 caution i give an orientation talk at Georgetown Law. I'm 403 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,240 giving one I think it's next week to incoming one 404 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:43,960 else called law School for Conservatives and Libertarians, in which 405 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,640 I read a letter I wrote home to my parents 406 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,119 and grandparents saying how much I was going to resist 407 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,240 the indoctrination that was happening here. And I went into 408 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,559 resistance mode. And I tell the students at Georgetown, don't 409 00:23:56,559 --> 00:23:58,960 do that. Don't do what I did, because even if 410 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,039 you sit there and you can figure out where your 411 00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:04,039 professor has gone wrong, that doesn't mean you know the 412 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,680 subject matter that the professor knows. And that's really what 413 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,839 your goal is. To figure out what you know, to 414 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,000 get inside their head and figure out and know as 415 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:13,160 much about what the subject is as they know, and 416 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,039 suspend your disbelief. So I think that the challenge has 417 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,480 always been there. I think that every student is capable, 418 00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:23,240 who has principles, is capable of rising to that challenge, 419 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,079 and they should just get inside the professor's head and 420 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:30,319 deal with it. And in fact, they will get more 421 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,680 out of their education than the students that agree with 422 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,119 the professors, because the students that agree with the professors 423 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,480 will not have their ideas challenge, just as the professors 424 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:44,640 themselves will not have their ideas challenge. Normally, you if 425 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,119 you go to a law school or you go to 426 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,960 college and you're being challenged by your left wing professors, 427 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,359 you're having your ideas challenge. Your ideas are going to 428 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,279 survive that challenge better and stronger than they were and 429 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,160 more knowledgeable than they were when you started. So you 430 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,920 actually can get more out of your education if you 431 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,680 go into one of these adversarial systems. Then the students 432 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,920 who are just already lockstep with the powers that be. 433 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: But that's that's a great point. It's good to have 434 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:14,319 ideas challenge. That's what we used to have in this country. 435 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,440 A university system that was about challenging ideas, all kinds 436 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,200 of ideas. We don't have that anymore. Well, I shouldn't 437 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,119 say that's a that's a wide ranging statement, but we 438 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,720 have lost a lot of that in our college campuses. 439 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,440 And now if you bring in a different point of 440 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,240 view than what is accepted on campus, you're labeled an 441 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:37,720 extremist and you're you're not really welcome. So how do 442 00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:38,400 you deal with that? 443 00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: Well, it really is going to depend on the circumstances, 444 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:48,119 and as you as you already suggested, it's not going 445 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,039 to be the same everywhere at all times. I've always 446 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:54,079 been actually very well treated by my colleagues, recognizing who 447 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,839 I am as being quite different than them. On the 448 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:01,240 other hand, I am somewhat I would say, I'm somewhat 449 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,519 of a token and a value to be as a token, 450 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:07,559 and they don't want too many more like me, but 451 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,359 a few of them are good and to have a 452 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359 few of them around. So it really depends on the 453 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,720 circumstances that you find yourself in. Is how you deal 454 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:17,079 with this. I mean, the one thing I would I say, 455 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,160 which and I tried to explain this in the book, 456 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,960 is I didn't think it was my responsibility to challenge 457 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,839 all my colleagues and tell them why they were wrong. 458 00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:26,839 Just because someone happens to have an office next to you, 459 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,200 that doesn't create any moral duty on your part to 460 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,400 correct all their bad thinking. I just wanted to mind 461 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,720 my own business, and I spoke through my articles, and 462 00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:37,640 I spoke through eventually my books and everything I did 463 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,319 outside the law school, most of which my colleagues didn't 464 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,039 know about because they were in there. They were in 465 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,480 their world and I was in my world, and my 466 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:50,680 world didn't penetrate their world. Now it's a little harder 467 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,319 now because our worlds interpenetrate with social media, et cetera. 468 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,799 It's easier for them to know what they do. But frankly, 469 00:26:56,839 --> 00:26:59,160 I think my colleagues at Georgetown don't know a fraction 470 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,240 of what I do and what I say because they 471 00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:04,960 just don't follow me on Twitter or whatever. I hope 472 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,880 they don't anyway, and so they don't really know what 473 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,759 I'm up to. And that's good because I just do 474 00:27:13,839 --> 00:27:17,119 my job and they do their jobs, and I can 475 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,160 get along quite well. So I would also encourage people 476 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,480 to consider academia, notwithstanding the current state of academia as 477 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,680 a career, because I still think first of all, you 478 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,279 can get a job if you play your cards right 479 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:32,279 even now, and secondly, the job is worth getting. The 480 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,720 problem I think students have in projecting themselves forward to 481 00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:38,599 being an academic is they think it's going to be 482 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,359 like it is with their fellow students. It's the students 483 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,599 that are really picking on the other students more than 484 00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:46,720 the faculty are doing sometimes with the encouragement of the faculty, 485 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,839 but mostly it's something they're doing themselves. Whereas faculty members 486 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,519 they pretty much treat each other decently once you're in 487 00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:56,319 their club, once you have been hired, once you've gotten 488 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,759 over the discrimination that I describe in my book that 489 00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,839 I was subjected to at every stage of my career. 490 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:03,880 But once you get over that, and then you get 491 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,079 in the door and you get the job at Georgetown, 492 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,960 Let's say at that point they've already voted for you, 493 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,799 they've already said we want you. And once they want 494 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:13,640 you in the door, then they treat you as one 495 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,480 of the group as long as you are not an 496 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:20,319 unpleasant person to them. You know, you need, I think 497 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:22,279 first and foremost, you need to be a decent person 498 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:24,640 to the people you work with as well as all 499 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,200 other people, especially to people who work for you, and 500 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,200 being a decent person goes a very long way in academia, 501 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,200 as it does in most walks of life. 502 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a lot to be said about collegiality. 503 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,480 I just remember a dear friend of mine passed away 504 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,680 a few years ago, worked in academia for many, many years, 505 00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:50,039 Professor John McAdams at Marquette University, and he was a 506 00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:53,200 happy warrior on the conservative front, there's no doubt about it. 507 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,240 But he went through hell, absolute hell is a reputation 508 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,759 was dragged through the mud. They were trying to end 509 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:03,279 his tenure and his career after a very long and 510 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:06,799 distinguished career. Someone who literally wrote the book on the 511 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:12,240 Kennedy assassination, political science professor with some very pointed views, 512 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:18,119 who pointed out the many wards on the Jesuit Catholic 513 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,759 Marquette campus, of course, and the leftist leanings more than leanings, 514 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,279 but what was going on in that campus. But you're right, 515 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,559 I mean it is going to absolutely vary, not just 516 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,799 from campus to campus, but from institution to institution, and 517 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:39,960 that's what we are seeing across America today. But what 518 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:43,759 say you of the people who are in charge of 519 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:50,319 licensing that have a bent to them. How challenging has 520 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:56,240 that become? Now, well, we've talked about higher education. Now 521 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:01,519 I'm sorry, I should be clear that the American Our Association. 522 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,799 Speaker 2: Oh, well, you know, you've got to take a bar 523 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,960 exam and then if you're halfway decent, you can pass 524 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,279 your bar exam. So I don't really think that's much 525 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:13,000 of a challenge. I mean, they are trying to do 526 00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:15,400 a few things around the margin so far, not all 527 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,960 that successfully, to use the bar as a way of 528 00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:23,319 importing wokeness or whatever you want to call it into 529 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:27,200 the practice of law. I mean, I think that when 530 00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:29,519 if you're just focusing on higher AD, we need a 531 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:33,000 multi prong strategy for how we take back control of 532 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:36,160 higher AD or how liberal arts comes back again genuine 533 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,119 liberal arts where different ideas are at play. I think 534 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,279 at the most elite institutions, I think those are more 535 00:30:42,359 --> 00:30:46,240 or less lost. Faculties reproduce themselves. If you know how 536 00:30:46,279 --> 00:30:48,759 faculty hiring works, you know that they're not going to 537 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:51,200 let in more than a few tokens, which I believe 538 00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:53,720 it's valuable they do so because I can be a 539 00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:57,319 resource for my conservative libertarian students that my colleagues cannot be, 540 00:30:58,079 --> 00:30:59,640 and I'm happy to do that. I think that's my 541 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,359 first responsibilities, not arguing with my colleagues. It's serving my 542 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,400 students and being a resource for them, especially if they 543 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,920 should get into trouble, to take their side. So I 544 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,359 think that's even the tokenism at the highest level is important. 545 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,880 I don't think we can we can we stand much 546 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,039 chance of taking those institutions back. On the other hand, 547 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:20,240 I've been empowered by having a Center for the Constitution 548 00:31:20,319 --> 00:31:22,960 at Georgetown, which gives me a bigger footprint at Georgetown 549 00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:25,759 than I would have as a professor, and those centers 550 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,759 are starting to proliferate at the highest end. There's a 551 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:31,359 professor at Chicago that has one, professor at Stanford that 552 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,039 has one. That's one strategy. The other strategy is for 553 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,200 red state legislatures and red state governors to start taking 554 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,920 control of what the taxpayer is providing by way of 555 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,359 higher education in those states. And I think in this case, 556 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,960 Governor DeSantis in Florida is the model for how that 557 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,279 can be done. By appointing a president and trustees of 558 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,319 the various universities and try to develop liberal arts and 559 00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:02,119 particularly developing centers within each of these flagship universities. There's 560 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,799 the Hamilton Center in Florida. There's the Cibota Center at Texas. 561 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:10,319 There's the Skettle Center at ASU, there's one at Tennessee. 562 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:13,440 There's one that's just opened. The Chase Centers just opened 563 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:17,480 in Ohio state. And as these things proliferate, you can 564 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:19,759 send your kid to a state school that maybe the 565 00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:22,720 best state school in your state, and they can get 566 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,519 a liberal arts education there, even if there's nonsense going 567 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:27,839 on in other departments. They don't have to take that nonsense. 568 00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:30,000 And in fact, most students don't want to, and the 569 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:33,440 enrollment of those departments are going down, and in fact 570 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,960 that can justify their closure on the grounds that they 571 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,960 don't have any enrollment. So that's the second prong. And 572 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,400 the third prong is to support independent new or new institutions. 573 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,240 Have donor money shift from sending money to Harvard, Yale 574 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,359 and Columbia send it to places like University of Austin, 575 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:53,640 Texas or other new institutions that are just wholly owned 576 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:58,279 that they're brand new liberal arts colleges that would actually 577 00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,079 instill the American the American story if you want to 578 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,680 send your kids to those places. So I think there 579 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,039 are different strategies that can be adopted. But we are 580 00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:10,400 in a culture war, and I think that culture war 581 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,319 needs to be fought at the level of culture and 582 00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,079 this is just some of the ways in which that 583 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:15,720 can be done. 584 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:19,119 Speaker 1: Final question for you. You've been very generous to the time. 585 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,400 I very much appreciate it. The book is engaging on 586 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,880 all of these fronts, but we talked about it before. 587 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,839 There is a steeped battle that is going on. I 588 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,799 think for the soul of this country, the soul of 589 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:38,799 the Constitution. Do you see this constitutional republic as we've 590 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:43,000 known it, as we think we know it now surviving? 591 00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: I do, and maybe it would help to read my 592 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,599 book to see how far we've come. When I was 593 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160 a law student in Larry Tribe's on law class in 594 00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:58,599 Harvard Law School, and this is not his fault, I 595 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,200 was simply reading Supreme Court opinions that every time I 596 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,039 got to one of the good parts of the Constitution, 597 00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:04,839 I would turn the page of the casebook and see 598 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:06,839 the Supreme Court and said, well, that doesn't count, and 599 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,519 that one doesn't mean what you think it means, or 600 00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:10,840 that we can't do anything about that one, et cetera, 601 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,000 et cetera. And by the time I was done with 602 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,920 constitutional law class, I was done with the Constitution itself. 603 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,039 That's why I when I had was a criminal prosecutor, 604 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,199 and then when I became a law professor, I avoided 605 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,880 constitutional law, became a contracts professor, where the law and 606 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,119 writings still matter, and I got dragged into the Constitution 607 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,679 constitutional law, even though I would have said when I 608 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:33,559 was a law student, we were never going to I 609 00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:35,360 don't know how we were ever going to bring things back, 610 00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:38,000 get the Supreme Court back? Are you kidding me? How's 611 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,400 that going to happen? How's that going to work? And 612 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:44,400 yet look at us forty years later. We now have 613 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,519 a majority of justices who identify as originalists. Now that 614 00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,280 doesn't always mean they do what I think they should 615 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,119 do as originalists, but nevertheless, that's huge progress. We've had 616 00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:57,679 some enormous victories in court as well to restore portions 617 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,679 of the Original Constitution. Still way way more to go, 618 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,559 and there is deficiencies on the conservative side as well, 619 00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:06,920 and over reliance on starry decisives or precedent et cetera. 620 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,199 Et cetera. But on the other hand, we are so 621 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,079 much farther along and to close the circle of where 622 00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,440 we began this conversation. That's exactly the why the Democrats 623 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,760 wanted to destroy the Supreme Court. Right now, they want 624 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,920 to destroy the Supreme Court because of the success we've 625 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,480 had at molding the opinion of what a court should do, 626 00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:28,159 and what a Supreme Court should do, and how they 627 00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:32,719 should approach the Constitution. We've been so successful both politically 628 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,679 and legally that they want to destroy the institution that 629 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,400 they formally believed in and worshiped. And so that's a 630 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,440 real indicator that progress is not only possible, but we've 631 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,519 already made it. When they stopped talking about destroying the 632 00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:49,239 Supreme Court, then we'll know that we maybe have vacclated 633 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,119 and we're not making the same kind of progress that 634 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,559 we've been making that I've been a part of making. 635 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:55,039 And I tell the story of how we did it 636 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:56,679 over the last forty years. 637 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: Very very good point to put a bow on what 638 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,599 we were talking about before. Here's your line for you. Now, 639 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,320 I'm liberal, but to a degree, I want everybody to 640 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,880 be free. But if you think that, I'll let bury Goldwater, 641 00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:18,199 move in next door and marry my daughter. You must 642 00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:21,280 think I'm crazy. I wouldn't let him do it for 643 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,519 all the farms in Cuba, And I was incorrect. Let 644 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:29,599 me correct myself. That's Bob Dylan's I Shall Be Free 645 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,679 number ten. Just in case you're scoring along at home, 646 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,719 that was the line that I was looking or thanks 647 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:36,559 for that. 648 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will have to say that I think Dylan 649 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,480 came along in his later years and not only made 650 00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:44,119 better music, but he actually wised up in many many 651 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:46,079 ways and became a mini capitalist himself. 652 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,639 Speaker 1: Oh, he certainly did. Take a look at what he's 653 00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:53,079 acquired over his lifetime and how he's tried to preserve 654 00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:57,000 that he is the ultimate capitalist, no doubt about it. Well, sir, 655 00:36:57,079 --> 00:36:59,880 it has been an absolute pleasure, and I hope that 656 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:03,599 this is one of many conversations that we have in 657 00:37:03,639 --> 00:37:09,639 the coming years. The book is fascinating, as you would expect, 658 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,400 and I think you will find a great deal of 659 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,119 value in it. Thanks to my guest today, Georgetown University 660 00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:22,360 law professor Randy Barnett, And once again the name of 661 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:26,480 Randy's memoir is A Life for Liberty. The making of 662 00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:31,000 an American originalist it's available now. I would presume everywhere 663 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,079 where can folks find it. 664 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: Well, Amazon is the obvious one to get a nice, 665 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,679 healthy thirty three percent discount if you buy it from there. 666 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,840 I don't know about other booksellers. And you got the 667 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,719 prime stuff and all of that sort of thing which 668 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,000 always helps. Again, thank you, sir, I appreciate your time. 669 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:48,400 You have been listening to another edition of the Federalist 670 00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:52,760 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior correspondent at the Federalist. 671 00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:56,840 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers 672 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:05,960 of freedom and anxious for the fray dood