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Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the

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Federalist and your experience Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge.

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As always, you can email the show at radio at

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the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and

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of course to the premium version of our website as well.

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Our guest today is doctor Christina Crenshaw, Assistant professor at

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Arizona Christian University. She serves as a fellow as well

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at the university's Cultural Research Center. She's also author of

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the fascinating new book Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's vision for

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doing good in the world. It is out in the

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world right now wherever you find your books. Christina, thank

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you so much for joining us in this edition of

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the Federalist Radio Hour.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me honored to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you bet. This is a great concept. It is

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so important these days. Over the last several years in

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this country, there has been i think a battle for

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the soul of this country and for individuals in this country,

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and it is a battle between the ephemeral, the political,

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and the spiritual and the biblical, and that is exactly

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what your book is about. It delves into what seemed

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like a catch phrase a few years back. It's a

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term that's been around and steeped in Marxism. It's social justice.

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And this book is really all about the difference between

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social justice and its aims, its motives, and biblical justice

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and the road to eternity. Give us a sense of

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the difference that you see between the two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I think just to kind of

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set up for your listeners, you know, the heart behind

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why I wrote this book, Like most of us, twenty

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twenty was so eye opening, and I think particularly if

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you were in church spaces, which I am. You know,

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I was at a Christian university, heavily involved in the church,

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and I started to realize, oh wow, even within the church,

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we don't have the kind of language and the kind

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of impetus for doing social justice work that is in

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any way distinguishable from those who are doing it from

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a humanistic perspective those who are doing it from secular reasons.

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And then, as you mentioned, I started to notice too,

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we don't really have language around this politically, we don't

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have language around this spiritually, and so that began to

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trouble me, particularly because I would see as a college

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professor my students they were motivated by the wrong reasons,

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and the wrong reasons lead to the wrong outcomes. So

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I went on this journey really twenty twenty twenty twenty one.

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I was particularly rattled by twenty twenty one when the

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Biden administration issued an executive order overturning title nine. Now

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I'm not too shocked by secular people doing secular things,

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or atheist people doing atheist things, but the way that

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I saw fellow Christians cheer for something that was not biological,

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something that was not biblical, was disturbing to me. So

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that was really like the impetus behind this book. And

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as I started to study the difference between social justice

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from a humanist Marxist perspective and biblical justice from an

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Old Testment to New Testament framework for why we would

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engage social work, why we would do good in the world,

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and God's heart for the differences between the two. So

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different motivations and different outcomes. But as you noted that

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the real distinguishing difference between social justice and biblical justice.

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And social justice is predicated on Marxist humanist, progressive relative ideology,

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and biblical justice is rooted in a biblical scriptural interpretation

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of what it means to do justice, to do mercy,

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to do good.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me, yeah, it seems to me that

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social justice as it was applied during the Black Lives

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Matter movement and the LGBTQ movement, as you mentioned, the

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transgender area, all of those sorts of things, there is

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this eventual goal of power, that is political power. That's

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what it's all about. The difference, to me seems pretty

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clear when you're talking about christ centered biblical justice. But

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we have all of these, you know, secular visions of

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the world and what doing good is supposed to be about.

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I think of a candidate, and I wanted to get

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your sense of this because in Texas you have this,

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you know, very intense senate race going on. The primaries

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are coming up, and I think you know where I'm

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going with this. But there is a candidate named James

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Talerico who has become you know, the it guy for

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the left social justice movement, and he, you know, he

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is apparently attempting to be a pastor. He's received a

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shout out from Barack Obama and charmed, this is not

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my writing, by the way, I believe this is Mother

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Jones magazine. And you know, yes, right there exactly. They're

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faughting over this guy. He's charmed everyone from Ezra Kline

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to you know, you name the liberal h Stephen Colbert

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for instance. So he he is really getting a lot

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of attention because he is saying, hey, uh, you know,

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you don't have to practice your faith through the lens

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of what he likes to call, you know, uh nationalism

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or the Christian right, Christian nationalism, that sort of thing.

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Talk about that in relation to your book, if you

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don't mind about how the left is now trying to

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capitalize on what is really fundamental to this country, and

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that is the Christian faith.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, James tallerco is a great example of where

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the left has co opted much of what is biblical

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and used it for their own agenda. And what bothers

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me most about the Christian nationalism accusation is the very

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actions that the left accuses the right of doing. When

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they call something Christian nationalism, they do it as well.

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They just won't own the label So, for example, if

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I had a dollar for every time I heard the

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left say, just love your neighbor and get vaccinated, Just

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love your neighbor and wear a masks, just love your

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neighbor and open the borders. And the very idea of

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just love your neighbors again is predicated on the idea

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of Jesus telling us to love our neighbors, love our enemies.

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But this so, first and foremost, the left is using

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Christian language for their own power and agenda, and that

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is fundamentally at its core what they're calling Christian nationalism.

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So when the right advocates to end abortion or to

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put severe restrictions on when abortion is allowed, we are

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called Christian nationalists. But when the left wants to evoke

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a biblical principle for their agenda, suddenly it's not Christian nationalism.

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So the hypocrisy is comical and dizzy. So just to

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address the Christian nationalism accusation, I wish both sides would

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just come to terms with we are doing our best

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to integrate our faith in the public square, and it

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is tricky and it is hard, and that we would

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just take the Christian nationalism accusation off the table. Because

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it's circular, like critical theories often are, and it's not

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helpful or productive. I think that what most people want

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to claim on the left when they say Christian nationalism

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is that the right wants a theocracy, but we don't.

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No one wants a theocracy. So I think that's what

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they think that they are claiming when they claim Christian nationalism,

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because in reality, if it's faith integration, they're attempting to

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do it too, to actually address some of the holes

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in their argument, the flaws. I think it comes back

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to just having a robust apologetics around whatever issue is

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on the table and hermanuticts. So, for example, James Tallerico,

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I've heard him. He's very loose and far too generous

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on the idea of abortion. And so when you ask,

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as a Christian, can you ground that and scripture? Where

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are you getting this from? He pivots. You know, I

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haven't followed him closely, but when I see clips or

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when I see commentators speaking on him, you know, I

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know I'm not voting for him, so I haven't needed

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to follow him closely. And even the people you have

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suggested have a dorsed at Mother Jones Obama, it just

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tells me everything that I need to know about the

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type of Canada he is. But when I've listened to

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his arguments, he doesn't actually build a biblical case. It

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really is rooted and more of a humanism, more of

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this idea of like love your neighbor. But even that

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needs to be addressed. When Jesus says love your neighbor,

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he means tell them the truth, that the truth will

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set you free, that the truth leads to freedom, that

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the truth leads to human flourishing. So the idea of

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love your neighbor by telling them and affirming whatever lie

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they believe, by placating to whatever culture says is in vogue,

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that is holistically incompatible with what the Bible says, which

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has withstood two thousand years of church history. And so

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if you can't fit it into that narrative, then it

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probably doesn't biblically align.

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Speaker 1: I agree, and I wanted to follow up on that.

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Why do you think there are so many interpretations justifications?

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And I think I know the answer to this. I've

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been thinking about this for over fifty years now, and

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something that's occupied my thoughts for a long time. How

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do we have so many different interpretations of the truth,

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and you think about that in this world right now,

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where we're told follow the science, right, that's supposed to

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be that the truth. And then, as you mentioned before,

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you have politicians and bureaucrats locking us down during the pandemic,

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which was extremely harmful in so many ways. And then

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you have people saying that, no, there really aren't two sexes.

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There's a whole spectrum of genders. I mean, how do

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we get into all of this? Is it just because

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it's easier to follow that humanist way? It justifies some

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wrongheaded thinking that's been going on since you know, man

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was came forward. I guess yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean the easy answer to those questions is yes

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and yes. But I think the harder question to answer,

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and I don't know that if you're not in academia,

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you're not in thought leadership as we are. The average

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person may not realize that most of this postmodern relative

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thought is rooted in critical theories, and as you noted earlier,

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critical theories come out of a Marxist framework. So I

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would encourage your listeners if they're not familiar, and maybe

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they are, but most people I encounter, the average person

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is not. But the Frankfurt School of thought, which was

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popular in the nineteen twenties. It was a group of

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academic thinkers out of Frankfurt, Germany who popularized the idea

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of again critical theories, and when what are critical theories,

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it is undoing and unhinging truth from what has historically

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been said in a Judeo Christian worldview. Even our Enlightenment

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thinkers still used a Judeo Christian worldview as their touchdowe

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for truth and for policies and for shaping our great nation.

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I mean, people would be hard pressed to argue against that.

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It's just so clear. But what the Frankfurt School thought

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looked to do was to uphind truth and to untether

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it from everything that we had ever known to be true,

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particularly if it was tethered to faith and to the

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Christian faith. And so what they look to do is

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to create ideologies based on the oppressed oppress or narrative

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that someone is inevitably the bad guy and somebody is

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the good guy. And if you are the oppressor, then

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you need to be toppled. Then that sort of hegemony

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and that sort of power needed to be toppled. But

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what's different about the biblical worldview is it looks at

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all of us and it says, hey, it turns out

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you're all centers. On any given day, you are either

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the oppressed or the oppressor, which is why you need Christ.

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Because none of you is innocent. And as soon as

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you topple one power or wants social hierarchy your structure,

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you've just created another. So you need a level playing

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field within Christ. That Christ is your ultimate touchstone for

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what is good, true, and beautiful. So yeah, I think

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to answer your question that sin. You know, I was

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on a podcast with my pastor the other day and

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he said, so, let me kind of unpack this in

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pastoral language. He said, So we have injustice because of sin,

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my guests, he said, in God's answer to injustice is Christ. Yes,

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and God's method for ending injustice is his Church. I'm like, well, yes,

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that is my book in a nutshell, you have filed it.

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It's I love how pastors really do have the art

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of bringing it down to the lay level. But yeah,

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but even you know bigger. To answer your question, I

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just don't think people realize how infiltrated the public square

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has become with critical theories and Marxist thought, and the

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Frankfurt School of thought, which tells us that there isn't

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just truth, that your truth is your truth, and we

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placate to that idea that we can't really know what

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is true, and so it's up to the individual interpretation.

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We've become a hyper individualized society. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I've written recently about the Frankfurt School,

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the Frankfort School of critical theory, which of course the

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new generation is critical race theory, which we'll talk about

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here in just a moment as it seen through the

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concept of social justice. But you know, I did an

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investigation into a Christian private school, a college prep school

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in Tennessee, and one of the concerns from the parents

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is that the school was not it was getting away

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from its foundational Christian values. And one of their arguments

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was that the administrator at that school had written a

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dissertation for his PhD many years before, and it had

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what they considered to be all of these woke ideas.

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And you know that the school said, well, that's not

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the case and these sorts of things. And I said, well,

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can I have a copy of the dissertation? And they

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said no, And so I had to had to go

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get a copy of the dissertation from the school where he,

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you know, he was attended years before, and they gave

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me and it was it was absolutely immersed in the

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Frankfurt school of thought. You know, this Marxist and now

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today the neo Marxist movement all tied to that early

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twentieth century movement. And I think there are a lot

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of parents who are very concerned about Christian schools across

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the country that are now really getting into critical theory.

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They might not call it that, but that is exactly

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what it is. Are you hearing the same complaints from

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parents of these private Christian schools?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: I would say that I did from twenty twenty to

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maybe twenty twenty three, But as we mentioned earlier, I

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think we had a collective wakening. I mean, there was

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just nowhere to hide. The lines were drawn in and

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twenty twenty one, and I think that there has been

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more of a reckoning. So what I'm hearing more of

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now are parents who are being awakened to their kids'

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school curriculum and are taking action. So I would say

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that that was, yes, that that was definitely the case

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from I mean, my goodness, I probably started to notice

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this in like twenty thirteen in the college classroom. I

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was teaching a social issues and education course and just

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realizing the curriculum even that I had been assigned because

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I was a doctoral student and I had some leeway

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I would bring in, you know, like if they had

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Cornell West and Paulo Ferrari, then I would balance it.

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If you know, I'm like, we're going to read some

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Timothy Keller. You need some balanced thought here. But I

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started noticing it amongst my students and even within Christian

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higher education about twenty thirteen. But I also saw an

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awakening with parents in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty

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twenty two. You know, we would see parents at school boards,

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parents fighting back, parents advocating for their daughters to have

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the locker room, and sports teams you know, to themselves.

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So so what I'm seeing more of in this particular

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moment our parents really fighting for the boundary lines to

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be redrawn to where they should be. But yes, prior

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to twenty twenty three, I do think within Christian higher

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education particularly and within Christian k through time, there were

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some concerning DEI initiatives. There was a lot. You know,

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even my kids' school had to reevaluate where do we

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stand on gender and sexuality. I think they didn't feel

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like this was something they needed to speak up on before,

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but by twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, you couldn't

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afford to remain silent. Parents were asking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and that became I think COVID really exposed that.

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Certainly it did in the public school system where you

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had parents home with their kids because everybody was pretty

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much locked down, and you watched as kids went through

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their lessons and or indoctrination, and they saw it firsthand,

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what are you teaching my kid here? And I think

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that is a big part of where the reawakening and

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the you know, the pushback absolutely came from our guest today.

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He is doctor Christina Crenshaw, Assistant professor at Arizona Christian University.

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She serves as a fellow at the university's Cultural Research Center,

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and is author of the fascinating new book Redeeming Justice,

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Reclaiming God's Vision for doing Good in the World.

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Speaker 3: College underemployment is at crisis levels. Almost half of recent

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college grads are working in jobs that do not require

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a college degree. We have not seen numbers like these

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since when two thousand and eight. Check out the Watchdog

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on Wall Street podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get

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00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,680
your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: When did it become good to have high school girls

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shower with high school boys? And man, I think that

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was a tipping point in this journey as well, was

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it not?

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly was for me. I have sons, I

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don't have daughters, but I am a female and prior

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to really stepping into this sort of advocacy work, my

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research agenda at a university was on anti human trafficking

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efforts on prevention education, and so I've known for you know,

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over ten years the data on sexual assault against females

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and where that occurs and sexual abuse in human trafficking

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me largely human trafficking effects women and girls, or particularly

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sex trafficking anyway, So for me, it was a huge injustice.

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I was very indignant on behalf of women when the

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Biden administration issued the executive order that reversed Title nine

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that essentially allowed males who identify as female to enter

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what were once from you know, nineteen seventy to until

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this moment, protected spaces for females and I think you're right.

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I think a lot of parents said, Okay, this is

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the straw that has broken the camel's back. You know,

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we've stayed silent through the masks and the mandates and

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the vaccines and you know, maybe even some of the

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DEI initiatives, but when it comes to protecting our daughters,

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who are far more vulnerable than the males seeking their spaces,

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we have to speak up all this. And I did

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see a collective of rising in parents on or with

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parents on that issue. Yeah, And I think from there

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it just snowballed. You know, once you begin to ask questions,

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and you're asking, you know, the power to make it

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make sense, so to speak, and they can't. That's when

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I think parents found their voice. And I know that

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certainly when my eyes were opened, you know, I think

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I had the opportunity to see the water that was

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churning below us and coming to a boiling point because

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I'm in higher education. But once the public square, you know,

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caught a wind of what was occurring and and sort

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of these critical theories that were becoming policy, parents rightly

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were upset. And yeah, so that's just probably one example

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is the reversing of Title nine, and of course we're seeing,

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you know, Scotus still is having trouble to finding a

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woman unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: So it's of members are at least not maybe not all.

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Speaker 2: Of them, but but currently Yeah, so I do think

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that the collective pressure is pushing back on these false,

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harmful narratives, and I'm thankful for that. But yeah, it's

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definitely no. As I talked to different colleagues who are

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of you know, like minded and conservative and concerned about

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where we're going as a country, they you know, they say,

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don't take too too deep of a breath or too

359
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deep of a sigh, that it's really just about who

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is you know, the administration. That if we, you know,

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have a democratic administration, that the Overton window will swing

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right back. So I hope that's not the case. I

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hope that we have shifted the Overton window enough. But

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I do see that there is still work to be done.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, But you paid the price for this, and so

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have so many others for arguing reason for taking the

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reasonable stands. As a professor, you advocated for separate protecting

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spaces for biological women. You face the wrath from parts

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of the lgbt Q plus community labeled transphobic. And that's

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the thing that's that's really still in play today. That

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is the card that the secular vision of social justice

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what they play all the time. If you say, listen,

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I don't think discrimination to make up for past discrimination

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is a good idea, Well you're you're a racist then,

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because you're not an anti racist as they describe it.

376
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If you say, no, I believe there are there's a

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man and there's a woman. It is a binary thing.

378
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It's not a fluid thing. There's mental illness as well.

379
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That's something you're you know, you're transphobic. And a lot

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of people who have strong Christian faith values foundations, a

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lot of them over a short period of time. Uh,

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they kind of just you know, disappeared into the public

383
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course because they did. They were so afraid of being

384
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labeled these horrible terms and they weren't. How did you

385
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get through that personally?

386
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, let me tell your listeners a little bit

387
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about the backstory, just so they can have some context

388
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for that, because being five years removed, it is more comical.

389
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It was actually very painful when it happened. But beauty

390
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from ashes. I think this, you know again, was the

391
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catalyst for the book. I was teaching at, you know,

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one of the nation's largest Christian universities, and it states

393
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that it's unapologetically Christian and evangelical, and that's really why

394
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I was teaching there. I you know, there's a lot

395
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of different universities within Texas, and I went to Texas

396
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A and M for undergrad but I wanted to be

397
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at a distinctly Christian university. I have a friend, Dan Darling,

398
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who wrote a tweet in twenty twenty one January, when

399
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Biden issued the executive order overturning Tay and allowing males

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to identify as females and then essentially erasing are the

401
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very least blurring the lines between male and female sanctioned spaces.

402
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He writes this tweet that says, this is concerning. We

403
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need people to speak up. I reply, and I say yes,

404
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as a female, I am concerned. What if females don't

405
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want to share bathrooms and sports with males? Do we

406
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not have a voice? No? And about a week later

407
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I woke up to the student newspaper issuing a They

408
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wrote a whole op ed and it said doctor Crinshaw

409
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is transphobic and needs to be fired, and then a

410
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witch hunt ensued where not the majority of campus, but

411
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a small faction of campus started a petition to get

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me fired, tried to get me canceled from the university,

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and it got so vicious that finally the administration, the

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propos office, had to issue a free speech statement on

415
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my behalf, but really on behalf of all faculty. It's

416
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sort of shocking to me that the university didn't have

417
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one in place to begin with. But it took I'm

418
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assuming legal counsel behind the scenes. It took a lot

419
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of people who were on my side, parents and fellow colleagues,

420
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just you know, the pushback that they received against the

421
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students to finally get a free speech statement in place.

422
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But because of that moment, yes, I was on Fox

423
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and Friends, I was on Alibefstucky, I was the subject

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of a lot of different Christian Christian magazines, and I

425
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:37,039
realized very quickly, because you know, I was wondering, like,

426
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what is this pr what is this media? I didn't

427
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:41,680
ask for this. To me, this is so logical, this

428
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,279
is so simple. How are we confused on this? I

429
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,559
realized culture was so confused, and not just culture, but

430
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the Church, and that deeply concerned me because again I

431
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,559
expect the world to be crazy in chaotit and to

432
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lack clarity. I didn't think that that's where the church

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which was on this, and so I wrote this book.

434
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It really is a voice into the church reminding like, hey,

435
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I know that your heart is in the right place,

436
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but not everything that you do in the name of

437
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:16,599
compassion is actually really compassionate. For example, when you think

438
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that you are being compassionate by affirming a lie that

439
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:22,079
a male can be a female and that we're going

440
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:25,000
to call them trans women and that women need to

441
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:26,960
just get on board with this and let them in,

442
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that is actually deeply incompassionate and a deep injustice to females,

443
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you know, so that you realize how circular and how

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00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:39,519
illogical that is, that that's not actually justice and that's

445
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not actually compassion. And that's what happens with a lot

446
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of these critical theories. When you ask people make this

447
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,359
make sense, they can't because they're illogical, they're unfounded, they're

448
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,119
not grounded in anything true. They're not grounded in biblical truth,

449
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and they're not even grounded in biological truth or as

450
00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:01,119
we talked about earlier scientific truth. For example, if you

451
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,480
had data proving that this vaccine was actually stopping COVID,

452
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:10,880
let's hear it. But until then, could we have a

453
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,920
conversation about where there is no science on this? And

454
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you know, and so I think that's when people are

455
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,440
unwilling to have the conversation that you realize, Okay, you

456
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:24,720
actually don't have a solid argument here. You're just being

457
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:27,920
a social justice advocate, but you don't even really know

458
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what you're advocating for.

459
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Speaker 1: Was it the Chip and Joanna Gains a faction at

460
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,440
Baylor that caused you all the trouble? I mean, I'm

461
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,559
curious what you think about all that because having taught

462
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at Baylor right in that backyard, and Baylor the university

463
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,200
is so tied to the identity, if you will, of

464
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:56,480
Chip and Joanna Gains, and you know they have taken

465
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,039
it seems to me, their faith and tried to put

466
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:04,160
it through a secular lens. How do you feel about

467
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:04,640
all of that?

468
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's a tough one. And because as

469
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,279
you as you noted, I mean, yes, the relationship between

470
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really all of Waco, Texas and Magnolia and Baylor, it's

471
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,319
so very intertwined. I mean even from my front door,

472
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I can see six neighbors houses that work for Magnolia,

473
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,599
just to give you an idea of how intertwined it is.

474
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And so I think we can't just, you know, sort

475
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,559
of like whittle it down to one perspective or one

476
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,440
couple because it is so multifaceted. You know, same with

477
00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:39,519
Baylor University. You know, if I had ten percent of

478
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:44,960
the university who is loud and vicious in their pushback,

479
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,279
ninety percent supported me. It's the ten percent that's concerning.

480
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,079
And similarly with Magnoliat. You know, for every one person

481
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:58,440
you could find that is progressive or ascribing to woke ideologies,

482
00:31:58,519 --> 00:32:01,839
there are nine people who are this is ridiculous. It's

483
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:05,920
just that ten percent that is so loud. And that's

484
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,079
the group that I was speaking to. That's the group

485
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:10,079
where I say, you know where my heart is to

486
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:15,480
say you cannot theologically explain what you believe. And you

487
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:19,440
know the thing with Chip and Juanna, they you know,

488
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,119
they used to go to my church. And so I

489
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,599
think that even this is a fascinating case study in

490
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,400
twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, I mean, this is public information,

491
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:32,440
so I'm not sharing insider intel. Our church was dragged

492
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,839
through the rinker for being too conservative, for having a

493
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,880
stance that was you know, considered you know, archaic and

494
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,599
not with the times, because it was a biblical perspective

495
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:48,599
on gender and marriage, and Chip and Joanna received backlash

496
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,519
from progressives for going to our church, which is clearly

497
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:55,680
in line with doctrine. And then you fast forward to,

498
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,960
you know, ten years later, and they have sort of

499
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:04,799
changed their stance. Our church hasn't changed, and our church

500
00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:08,720
fell under scrutiny again. We didn't change. I think that

501
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,240
people are changing with culture, which tells me they're not

502
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:15,759
rooted in truth. And I'm not singling out any couple,

503
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,960
I mean in general the church. If you can believe

504
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:23,480
one thing in twenty sixteen, but you've shifted in twenty

505
00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:27,160
twenty six but you don't have a theological framework, you

506
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,039
can't explain your hermeneutics, you don't have an apologetics. Then

507
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,680
you simply listen to culture. Culture is always shifting. But

508
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:40,680
the biblical narrative, again, that's two thousand years old. We've

509
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,680
been very clear on this from the beginning. So it's

510
00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:49,359
not the Bible that's the problem. It's people listening to culture.

511
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,480
That's the problem.

512
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: I can tell you as a guy who has been

513
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,359
nauseated by the culture, the culture is always the problem.

514
00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:03,920
Just take a look at modern music. But that's that's

515
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,320
a show, a different show of its own. I think

516
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,840
this really gets to the heart of what we've been

517
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,000
talking about in your book. And it's a quote from

518
00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:18,760
Abraham Lincoln. He is said to have said this at

519
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:24,119
one point, and I certainly see him or imagine him

520
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,039
saying that. Given his second Inaugural, and I'll read both

521
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:28,599
for you and wanted to get your take on it.

522
00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:34,239
He was asked about God being on the side of

523
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,199
the Union, and he said this, My concern is not

524
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,679
whether God is on our side. My greatest concern is

525
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,639
to be on God's side, for God is always right.

526
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,480
And that ties into one of his most, if not

527
00:34:50,599 --> 00:34:55,559
most famous lines from the beautiful second Inaugural, where he said,

528
00:34:56,079 --> 00:35:01,480
as the war was quickly coming to an end, with

529
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,079
malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in

530
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:10,760
the right, as God gives us to see the right,

531
00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:15,320
let us strive on to finish the work we are in,

532
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,360
to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him

533
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,079
who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow

534
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,599
and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and

535
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,800
cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with

536
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,679
all nations. I think that directly sums up that perspective

537
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,199
of a man who struggled through his life to figure

538
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,159
out what God was trying to tell him, what God

539
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,039
wanted him to do, and I think he fully understood

540
00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:55,800
that at the end of the day, it's not how

541
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,760
I feel, It's about what God. God is, and as

542
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,280
Abraham Lincoln said, God is always right. I think there

543
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,480
are all kinds of people struggling with that, and I

544
00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:10,800
think what we're talking about is part of that. You know,

545
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,039
the whole notion of love is love, love your neighbor.

546
00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,679
You mentioned it before, you know, very core principles, and

547
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,920
so they are taken with this secular view of okay, well,

548
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,639
that expands to everything, even if the truth doesn't apply

549
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:25,280
to it.

550
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, those are great quotes from Lincoln.

551
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,320
I wish I had included them in my book. I'll

552
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,159
have to start integrating them into my conversations because you're right,

553
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,960
I mean, that's what it fundamentally comes down. To You know,

554
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:43,280
I have said to people before really reson which resonates

555
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,800
with these quotes. I'm not interested in being on the

556
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,239
right side of culture, or even as the slogan is

557
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,400
the right side of history. I'm interested in being on

558
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,199
the right side of scripture because scripture withstands time. There's

559
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,159
truth to this, and so you know, scripture has the

560
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,800
ability to right the wrongs of history, as we saw

561
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,559
with slavery, and that is something I addressed in the book.

562
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:10,559
You know, I paint a beautiful picture of the good

563
00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:12,760
that the Church has done in the world. You know,

564
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,320
I go back to the beginning with ending and fanticide,

565
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,119
with Catholic hospitals, Catholic universities, with the ways that we

566
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:27,079
have been forerunners in adoption care as Christians. So you know,

567
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:29,760
the list goes on and on. But I do take

568
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,119
a moment to grieve and lament the role that Christians

569
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:37,000
played in slavery because we were culpable. But then I

570
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:41,320
remind people that Christians are also attributed to ending slavery.

571
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:43,920
We can look to William Wibbler Force, we can look

572
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,480
to Frederick Douglas, we can look at all of these

573
00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:51,320
people who actually said Abraham Lincoln because I love the Lord,

574
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,039
because I believe his words are true, Because I believe

575
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:57,719
in the Amago Day that every person possesses, we're going

576
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,960
to fight to end this injustice. So, you know, has

577
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,440
the Church always gotten it right? Absolutely not. But when

578
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,159
you compare it to all other ideologies, all other demographics,

579
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,599
we have gotten it more right than any other group

580
00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:15,920
throughout history. And it's not because we're just such a

581
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,559
great group of people. It's because we've got Christ in

582
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,400
us again, it's the Imago Day, it's the Holy Spirit

583
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,000
working in us. So yeah, I'd love those quotes by

584
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,400
Abraham Lincoln because you're right, you know, we should look

585
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,400
at an injustice and grieve and say, well, what is

586
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,559
God's heart for this? That's what I want to advocate for.

587
00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:37,559
And so I think specifically to give your listeners some

588
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,920
tangibles when you're confronted with a lie, like well, just

589
00:38:42,039 --> 00:38:45,039
love your neighbor. You just have to be ready to say,

590
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:48,239
but how can I love my neighbor with a lie? Right? Like,

591
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,800
it's not loving to lie and to affirm a false identity.

592
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,559
Compassion would lead me to say, okay, you have gender dysphor,

593
00:38:56,639 --> 00:38:59,960
yet you have gender confusion, and we need to get

594
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:03,159
you help, and let's be as compassion as possible in

595
00:39:03,199 --> 00:39:07,480
that journey. But in the meantime, while you're seeking help, no,

596
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,239
you cannot come into my space or compassion, says, I

597
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,360
know that you have an unwanted pregnancy. I know that

598
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,719
that's hard. I know that you're in a position where

599
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,159
you cannot raise this child. But let's find you a

600
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:25,639
family that can. Let's get you support, Let's find a

601
00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:29,000
crisis pregnancy center that can walk you through this, because

602
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,679
there are other options. So that's what a Judeo Christian

603
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,000
worldview looks like. It looks like finding truth and scripture

604
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,519
and with compassion, you walk a person through a solution

605
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:46,559
that would honor God, not that honors their feelings or

606
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,000
their vibes. That's, you know, a word gen Z likes

607
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,920
to use. You know, it looks at really looking at

608
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,960
what honors God ultimately, not what honors the individual. Because

609
00:39:57,039 --> 00:39:59,719
we're always changing and we cannot be trusted. The hardest

610
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,400
is say people, so we've got to have a touchdown

611
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,880
that is more solid than our ever shifting hart.

612
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: And that raises I guess a final point for me

613
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,000
in all of this do you think that the idea

614
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,880
of loving loving your neighbor as yourself, which is a

615
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:29,840
you know, a principle, principal idea foundational uh to Christianity,

616
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:36,239
But so many people loathe themselves in this world, and

617
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,480
so do they take that loathing, that self loathing and

618
00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,280
apply that to their worldview?

619
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, The short answer to that is yes.

620
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,239
I had not thought of before. But you're right. Maybe

621
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,280
some of the reason we have such a difficult time

622
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,840
defining what it looks like to love others is because

623
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,000
we don't really know how to love ourselves well. That

624
00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:05,719
we're looking for that and like the next dopamine hit

625
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,920
and we're looking for that, and you know, in the

626
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,960
next temporal fix instead of what is eternal. You know

627
00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:16,719
that we've lost sight of the t loss the eternal,

628
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,440
the way that we are just here and passing and

629
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,119
this is not our home. And so when we've lost

630
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,719
sight of tethering ourselves to what's eternal, how do we

631
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,639
love ourselves well? I think you raise a really interesting

632
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,719
point that I don't know that many people are reflective

633
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,679
on that we don't know how to love others well

634
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,199
because we don't really love ourselves with an eternal love.

635
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,639
We're loving ourselves with this temporal, fleeting sort of false love,

636
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,599
which you know. C. S. Lewis has a lot to

637
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:51,400
say about that, you know, C. S Lewis to your listeners. Yeah,

638
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,800
so I think that you raise a really interesting point there.

639
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:58,719
I think too. And Carl Truman has written extensively on

640
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,800
how we are so hyper individualized that we think that

641
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,119
love is all about me, me, me, me, me, and

642
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:12,039
what makes me me happy, and so combating that narrative,

643
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,079
you know, with you know what, it's not really just

644
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:17,760
about what makes you happy. There are other people to

645
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,119
consider here, and if your happiness is an imposition on

646
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,760
my well being, then we cannot allow that to be

647
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,360
what triumphs in this situation. So, you know, specifically with

648
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,000
the idea of abortion, even though you may have convinced

649
00:42:36,039 --> 00:42:40,719
yourself that ending the life of a baby will bring

650
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,480
you happiness, that is a huge injustice to the baby

651
00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,880
in the womb. We've got to find a different solution,

652
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,920
even though you think it will make you happy to

653
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,599
go through gender surgeries or to occupy a space that

654
00:42:53,639 --> 00:42:57,559
doesn't biologically belong to you. I'm so sorry that causes

655
00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:01,320
harm to another. We've got to find another solution. So

656
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,960
one of the things I do talk about in the

657
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,199
book is we've got to find common ground through common good,

658
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,000
you know, work and because not everybody is going to

659
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:14,360
share our Christian ideology. But where we can at least

660
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,719
gather that common ground is if your idea of good

661
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,719
is a harm to the majority's idea of good, then

662
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,639
it cannot be good. You know that most people can

663
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:28,840
gather around that notion, even if they're not Christians.

664
00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: Indeed, and the great leveler, the great equalizer, is what

665
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,840
you note constantly in your book. We've talked about throughout

666
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:43,199
our conversation, and that is we are all sinners. We

667
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:48,280
all fall short of Christ, and we always will. And

668
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,599
that's why we need Christ. That's why we need the

669
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,840
Lord in our lives. That emptiness that we're feeling, and

670
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,559
we all do at different times in our lives. That's

671
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:05,400
theness when we when we forget about our connection to

672
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,599
our heavenly Father. That's just how I view things. Not

673
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,760
everybody does. I understand. And as he said that, you

674
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,639
know that that tear is what's part of what is

675
00:44:16,679 --> 00:44:19,719
going on in American life today. But I think your

676
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,800
book does well to answer some of those big questions.

677
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: Thank you. It was a labor of love to write it,

678
00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:34,719
I mean, as writing always can be. But my heart

679
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,960
behind it was to speak to a confused church and

680
00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:43,639
to bring some clarity on bringing them back to what

681
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,239
is true, what is good, what is beautiful, not because

682
00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:50,400
society has said it or the classics have said it,

683
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,320
but because God has said it. And that's what makes

684
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,719
it good, true, and beautiful, and that's why it stands time.

685
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: Thanks to my guest today, doctor Christina Crenshaw, Assistant professor

686
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,880
at Arizona Christian University and fellow at the university's Cultural

687
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,840
Research Center. She is also author of the fascinating new

688
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:17,159
book Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's vision for doing good in

689
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,880
the world. You've been listening to another edition of The

690
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,960
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at

691
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,039
The Federalist. We'll be back with more soon. Until then,

692
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,840
stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the Gray