Speaker 1: We live in a world of strong opinions, some good,
Speaker 1: some bad, and some extreme. Sometimes those opinions become so
Speaker 1: extreme that individuals decide to take things into their own
Speaker 1: hands to try and change the world around us to
Speaker 1: reflect it for their own views. That is exactly what
Speaker 1: happened in Snowtown when someone decided certain individuals were no
Speaker 1: longer worthy of living. Warning. The following podcast contains graphic
Speaker 1: content and material intended for a mature audience. Listener discretion
Speaker 1: is advised. Hey, how's it going.
Speaker 2: My name's Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to
Speaker 2: Wicked and.
Speaker 1: Grim, a true crime podcast, and we're coming up on
Speaker 1: Halloween real quick. Who's excited for two weeks away? Ish? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Pretty much?
Speaker 2: Pretty much?
Speaker 1: As we're recording, it's the tenth, so that leaves us
Speaker 1: with twenty one days until well that's so that's three
Speaker 1: weeks technically.
Speaker 2: Oh we're that far away? Where are we?
Speaker 1: I guess?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: No, we're starting on the twenty fourth, aren't we.
Speaker 1: Well, but Halloween, I said, Halloween Week, were of course
Speaker 1: we're starting?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, so Halloween's three weeks away. Hollom Week
Speaker 2: is two weeks away, Yes, and it's so easier amount
Speaker 2: of time to wait.
Speaker 1: Of course, But if you don't know, we do a
Speaker 1: big whole thing for Halloween Week. Stuff's coming out every day.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be doing live streams, We're pumpkin carving. There's
Speaker 1: gonna be a whole whack load of content coming your way,
Speaker 1: specifically for Halloween week. Seven days.
Speaker 2: October is the month that we thrive.
Speaker 1: Of course it is. I mean it's the month that
Speaker 1: most people thrive. If I'm being wholeheartedly honest here, I
Speaker 1: think so. I definitely knows. It seems like it's the
Speaker 1: month that our patrons thrive because everyone over there is
Speaker 1: like super excited for the folloween week.
Speaker 2: It's actually, yeah, well, Halloween week is the bomb.
Speaker 1: It is. And everyone over there has been talking about
Speaker 1: Jacko so far, gotten a lot of messages is Jacko
Speaker 1: coming back? And Jacko is coming back? Don't don't you fret?
Speaker 1: I know Jacko is going to be here.
Speaker 2: We've got a lot of requests asking that he will
Speaker 2: be coming back. Yeah, very cool.
Speaker 1: And so speaking of our patrons, will give a quick
Speaker 1: shout out to those who joined us over there this week.
Speaker 1: So if you're curious on how to join. We'll tell
Speaker 1: you here shortly, but we have Candice Cauldron, Abigail Baker,
Speaker 1: Shannon Bruce. Thank you for telling us. Have to say
Speaker 1: your last name, Channon, Donnelle, Donielle, Donielle. There we go. Oh,
Speaker 1: I like that name, Alexia Venezuela. I think I said
Speaker 1: that name right, really good. Thank you. Dunnan's Storm, Sarah
Speaker 1: Riggs and Carly they all joined us over on our
Speaker 1: Patreon to get some exclusive behind the scenes, nice exclusive content,
Speaker 1: like we have a whole ass episode that comes out
Speaker 1: the last day of the month.
Speaker 2: So and then we also do pre shows, probably like
Speaker 2: one at least once a month, maybe twice a month.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a little us getting ready for the show.
Speaker 1: So we did a little pre show this time.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like ten minutes or so of us just
Speaker 2: chatting and chatting a little more in depth of motor life,
Speaker 2: I guess. Eh. Yeah, what's going behind the behind the pipes?
Speaker 2: Is that how you say that behind the scenes, behind
Speaker 2: the scenes.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, that works. But we got a lot going
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. We also getting ready for Halloween, did
Speaker 1: some content stuff. We did some photos today, Yeah, some
Speaker 1: cool things.
Speaker 2: It was awesome. Our faces were covered in paint so mine.
Speaker 2: I have a very sensitive face. It's a little bit,
Speaker 2: it's a little raw, but it was worth it.
Speaker 1: So not only with the content we got merch coming
Speaker 1: for Halloween. We just have a whole shit ton of
Speaker 1: awesome stuff coming for Halloween, is basically what we're trying
Speaker 1: to say.
Speaker 2: Just expect it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so watch out for the cool content for the
Speaker 1: Halloween week coming up, the new merch coming out very soon,
Speaker 1: a lot coming down the pipe.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 1: So with all that being said, are we good? Can
Speaker 1: we go right into this show? Can we go right
Speaker 1: into the episode?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. I just wanted to say a
Speaker 2: really quick happy Thanksgiving because this weekend in Canada was
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving long weekends, right, So today is Monday, we're recording,
Speaker 2: and we had the Well I was going to say
Speaker 2: we had the day off, but like I'm oh my
Speaker 2: own business, I didn't have the day off.
Speaker 1: I had a stat holiday today.
Speaker 2: But yeah we did. You made it a delicious meal last.
Speaker 1: Night, and yeah, yeah we got a little bit of
Speaker 1: pumpkin pie left over which we might indulge in after
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is it calling our name and staring at us?
Speaker 1: Say, it's literally right, beside my laptop right now, because
Speaker 1: tiny home, there's not much space. So yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyway, to all of our Canadian listeners, Happy Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and with that, let's get into that.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: So this is the Snowtown murders aka bodies in a barrel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a big one. Lots of information, So buckle
Speaker 1: those seatbelts because here we go. Okay, all right, So,
Speaker 1: starting on May twentieth of nineteen ninety nine, local police
Speaker 1: came across multiple decomposing bodies stuffed into old plastic barrels. Now.
Speaker 1: While some of these bodies appeared as if they had
Speaker 1: been here for longer than others, they had no idea
Speaker 1: just how to really identify how long they had actually
Speaker 1: been there and how many there really were. So yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of gruesome.
Speaker 2: That's brutal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, several barrels were discovered, each with multiple body parts
Speaker 1: being inside.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: They were actually found in an old bank vault, an
Speaker 1: old like decommissioned kind of bank.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's even creepier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this bank vault was in Snowtown in South Australia.
Speaker 2: So ooh, can I just say something really quick? This
Speaker 2: is our first Australia case, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I believe it is. We actually had someone, well multiple
Speaker 1: people recommend us to this case specifically, and someone recently
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you haven't done an Australian case, and
Speaker 1: we're like, we haven't. Yeah, so and it's not because
Speaker 1: we're avoiding it, it's just just how it worked out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so exactly, we thought, you know what, it's time that
Speaker 1: we do this casey okay.
Speaker 2: I just had to point that out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So what started out as a tragic discovery emerged
Speaker 1: into it like a seriously long lasting investigation that would
Speaker 1: open up so many horrific doors because this is something
Speaker 1: that went down in this town, well in Australian history
Speaker 1: and basically labeled this town something different forever. So Snowtown
Speaker 1: and the surrounding cities have been facing several missing persons
Speaker 1: cases for years before anything in this case would develop.
Speaker 1: So by the time they were about eight or nine
Speaker 1: documented missing person cases, the locals actually started getting frustrated,
Speaker 1: you know, with the authorities not finding anything, not really
Speaker 1: making any headway.
Speaker 2: Well that's a lot of like at that point, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: you got to get your shit together here. That's a
Speaker 2: lot of people.
Speaker 1: It's extremely significant. Yeah, So for years, individuals from the
Speaker 1: surrounding cities would go missing. Little was able to be
Speaker 1: dug up on any of them. None of the missing
Speaker 1: people were being found, and no cases came close to
Speaker 1: perpetrators being identified. So, like you say, rightfully, so brutal.
Speaker 2: So this I'm just thinking that there's a serial killer
Speaker 2: on the loose and they have just found his dumping grounds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, potentially. So with no leads to go off and
Speaker 1: the number of missing people accumulating every year, locals around
Speaker 1: Snowtown area began to make take matters kind of into
Speaker 1: their own hands. Police in Southern Australia had been on
Speaker 1: the hunt for the perpetrator of these missing persons cases
Speaker 1: since nineteen ninety two, but over the years they had
Speaker 1: no evidence pointing them to any suspects and the case
Speaker 1: had gone dry. Now, originally, none of these missing people
Speaker 1: were linked to one another because they had all come
Speaker 1: from different cities around the area. However, local residents began
Speaker 1: getting suspicious of three newcomers to their town and they
Speaker 1: brought this up to the authorities. Now, the three men
Speaker 1: were individuals by the name of John Justin Bunting, Mark
Speaker 1: Ray Hayden or Hayden I'm not sure exactly how you
Speaker 1: say it, and Robert Joe Wagner, and they were presented
Speaker 1: to the police as being kind of suspicious. So, according
Speaker 1: to locals, they had noticed vehicles that were kind of
Speaker 1: like sticking out oddly on the side of the road
Speaker 1: in areas, and they had engaged in suspicious behavior that
Speaker 1: just didn't seem right for their small town. Now, it's
Speaker 1: not exactly clear what set them off to the locals,
Speaker 1: like what the suspicious behavior really was, but their kind
Speaker 1: of eerie presence was more or less what indicated that
Speaker 1: they might be up to something that was no good.
Speaker 2: Well, sometimes you just have those gut failings too, It's.
Speaker 1: True, and if multiple people are reporting it, there might
Speaker 1: be something to go on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to listen to those failings too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Now, like Snowtown and the other surrounding cities
Speaker 1: were all small areas with very little population, anybody who
Speaker 1: caused any sort of specific suspicion was easily noted by
Speaker 1: any groups of locals, which might have been what set
Speaker 1: these three men off in the first place. Right.
Speaker 2: So, and I've honestly lived in some small towns and
Speaker 2: that makes complete sense to me. Well, even Prince George
Speaker 2: is a little bit small.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a big city by any means.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, on the day that these barrels were found, local
Speaker 1: investigators began looking into these three men as possible culprits.
Speaker 1: It was identified that the unused bank was read out
Speaker 1: under the name of Mark Hayden, which of course.
Speaker 2: Is one of those three dudes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, quickly linked them to the locations of the bodies
Speaker 1: being found and quickly turned the investigation on its heels.
Speaker 1: So over the next days, all three men were taken
Speaker 1: into custody and charged with murders of eight individuals, and
Speaker 1: the investigation would soon follow and uncover much more than
Speaker 1: anyone would initially think. Oh boy, Yeah, so let's backtrack
Speaker 1: a little bit. Now, let's go back to where this
Speaker 1: case began.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: In November of nineteen ninety one, John Bunting was living
Speaker 1: in Murray, Rich South Australia, and he was living on
Speaker 1: Loman Street, a quiet part of the suburb that didn't
Speaker 1: have much history of being in the news. In his basement,
Speaker 1: John had an old fashioned spider wall. Do you know
Speaker 1: what a spider wall is?
Speaker 2: I have absolute no idea.
Speaker 1: So remember like all those TV shows CSI and stuff
Speaker 1: where it's like they're trying to figure out the killer
Speaker 1: and they have the picture here and a picture there,
Speaker 1: the thread linking this guy to that guy. That's kind
Speaker 1: of a spider wall. So in the spare room of
Speaker 1: his house, he had a chart created using paper notes,
Speaker 1: the string and the wall, the whole webs. He connecting
Speaker 1: people to people and names of individuals. He was connecting
Speaker 1: people who he believed would be connecting to crimes, whether
Speaker 1: it was pedophilia or someone being homosexual. He believed these
Speaker 1: things to be crimes and he was laying it all
Speaker 1: out what he thought who would be involved with what,
Speaker 1: And this is how he was targeting them.
Speaker 2: Being a pedophile, yes, but not being gay. I don't
Speaker 2: agree with that. So he's deciding here.
Speaker 1: He is literally quite just deciding on his own. He's
Speaker 1: saying what pedophilia, homsice secxuality, those in his eyes are crimes.
Speaker 1: So he had this all laid out on his wall
Speaker 1: in the spare room, and at random he would pick
Speaker 1: somebody from his board and insinuate that there was something
Speaker 1: wrong with them that he needed to take care of them. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: because he had this board, he put it together. He said,
Speaker 1: you want this guy, He for whatever reason, he brings
Speaker 1: it up and says he's got to go because I
Speaker 1: say so, because look he's connected. Because my spider wall says.
Speaker 2: So, jeez. Yeah, that's like he's like almost playing god
Speaker 2: or something quite literally.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Robert Wagner in nineteen ninety one would meet John
Speaker 1: and John would open up to Robert about his hatred
Speaker 1: for certain parts of the population, something that he carried
Speaker 1: out through his life he was just never able to
Speaker 1: quite get rid of. So John had grown up with
Speaker 1: this agonizing hatred for pedophiles and homosexuals. He had grown
Speaker 1: up exhibiting classic characteristics that many unsettling children and havel
Speaker 1: let's say that, being disruptive in school, bullying other kids,
Speaker 1: and extreme cases, even killing animals. He kind of exhibited
Speaker 1: some of these symptoms growing up, and he grew up
Speaker 1: with this hatred. But John lived a life more extreme
Speaker 1: than what other children had to go through. He claimed
Speaker 1: he had been beaten and sexually assaulted by his older brother,
Speaker 1: and in his teenage years, he blamed all of his
Speaker 1: rage on pedophiles and had decided you know what, he's
Speaker 1: going to take care of it from there on. So
Speaker 1: it kind of shows where he comes from with this
Speaker 1: idea on pedophiles and homosexuality. Not to say it's right
Speaker 1: and that you should be taking these matters into your
Speaker 1: own hands, but that's kind of where he's coming from.
Speaker 2: And we have heard stuff like that before too in
Speaker 2: other cases.
Speaker 1: So and of course the other man involved in the
Speaker 1: suspect list is John's longtime friend Robert, So outside of
Speaker 1: the three, there was one other men that they used
Speaker 1: to hang around with quite frequently though, and he goes
Speaker 1: by the name of James Velasquiese. I think I said
Speaker 1: that name right, hopefully I did. James was even almost
Speaker 1: a step son of John. John was the son of
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Harvey and the woman who was seeing who John
Speaker 1: was seen. So John would often talk with James about
Speaker 1: his hatred for pedophiles and homosexuals and the people who
Speaker 1: he truly believed were the scum of the earth. After
Speaker 1: hearing this and kind of building up through rappot with John,
Speaker 1: James admitted to having been sexually assaulted by his stepbrother
Speaker 1: at the age of thirteen, so something John could actually
Speaker 1: relate to quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was from this point on that John became the
Speaker 1: ringleader of a team who would continually commit murders based
Speaker 1: on the idea that their victims were pedophiles. John would
Speaker 1: anonymously call people that he knew or felt he knew
Speaker 1: to be pedophiles and would threaten them, telling them that
Speaker 1: something bad would coming, something was going to happen, so
Speaker 1: they better watch out, sort of thing. He believed that
Speaker 1: he was on some sort of moral crusade doing good
Speaker 1: for the world by taking out these people who acted
Speaker 1: in wrongful, wrongful ways. Before attacking his victims, he and
Speaker 1: the other perpetrators would commit security fraud as well by
Speaker 1: stealing money and welfare paychecks.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I was just gonna say, I say this
Speaker 2: so often, but this is serious. Is some Dexter shit
Speaker 2: going on right here? A little bit is a find
Speaker 2: of pedophile like going and finding pedophiles, not necessarily anyone else,
Speaker 2: but like they're finding people that they think are doing wrong,
Speaker 2: which is wrong the pedophile thing, right, and going after them.
Speaker 2: So that's sort of fair enough.
Speaker 1: I could definitely see where you're going with that.
Speaker 2: I just compare everything to Dexter.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean Dexter's pretty awesome, So any excuse to
Speaker 1: talk about the show or Dexter himself, let's go for it. Right.
Speaker 1: So in total, though, eventually the group ended up with
Speaker 1: about ninety five thousand dollars and so holy shit. So
Speaker 1: to me, part of this is like, I think they're
Speaker 1: making up a lot of excuses to hey, let's go
Speaker 1: kill this guy to get more cash.
Speaker 2: That's it's real greedy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big thing for me. And there's a
Speaker 1: little bit more of that throughout to come as well
Speaker 1: that we talk about. So okay. So the group's first
Speaker 1: victim was killed on August thirty first, in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 1: Tracey's was only twenty two when he was attacked and
Speaker 1: killed by John with a hammer.
Speaker 2: Holy shit.
Speaker 1: John invited him into his home for a social visit
Speaker 1: before viciously attacking him without warning brutal. He accused him
Speaker 1: of being a pedophile, and his body was discovered in
Speaker 1: a town nearby, the town name Adelaide.
Speaker 2: Huh, that's okay, that's vicious, yeap. Hammer is There are
Speaker 2: a lot of ways to murder someone, I suppose, but
Speaker 2: that just seems horrific, not that any of them. Mart
Speaker 2: but that's that's a brutal picture in my mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, as the first documented murder, John needed some
Speaker 1: assistance with hiding the body and cleaning up the act,
Speaker 1: so he reached out to a friend of his, Bury Lane,
Speaker 1: who helped him conceal the body. This unsolved case was
Speaker 1: broadcast across the country in hopes that someone would know
Speaker 1: something or be able to come forward, but unfortunately nobody
Speaker 1: at the time had any leads to pursue. Years after
Speaker 1: committing the murder, John then buried the body after just
Speaker 1: only concealing it for now in a shallow grave on
Speaker 1: the sixteenth of August nineteen ninety four in lower Lights,
Speaker 1: South Australia. Now in nineteen ninety seven, Trey's case was
Speaker 1: actually the subject of two episodes on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 1: Cases were often aired like repeat, you know, like in
Speaker 1: hopes to dig up some new information and leads. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's kind of cool that it was aired like that,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately, again nothing ever came of it.
Speaker 2: I mean that must have I just have to say
Speaker 2: that must have been a good friend, because I don't
Speaker 2: think many friends would call me and be like, I
Speaker 2: need help, bear in a body and I would help them, right,
Speaker 2: they just wouldn't. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: That's that all right. Wow, that's that's pretty impressive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you got a point.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: It was not long after this that their second victim,
Speaker 1: Ray Davies, who lived in a caravan, was strangled to
Speaker 1: death at the age of only twenty six on December
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety five. Ray had been accused of sexually
Speaker 1: abusing the grandchildren of the woman whose property he was
Speaker 1: actually living on. Now, to John, this was more than
Speaker 1: enough to take a life in response to what he
Speaker 1: had done, but it's uncon it's not confirmed.
Speaker 2: Hm, so and like he could just literally be thinking
Speaker 2: this and like the person is totally innocent, correct or
Speaker 2: maybe if you have a hunch thatul you just call
Speaker 2: the police and let them know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But he's just like, no, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: start killing people and stealing their money because why not.
Speaker 1: Which again, I'm pretty sure he's just making a lot
Speaker 1: of this up. Not saying that there's not facts of
Speaker 1: some of the stuff he's doing, but he's building up
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff in his own head just
Speaker 1: for the reasons of a enjoying the killing and b
Speaker 1: taking the money.
Speaker 2: M h and he's justifying it in his mind.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. So after Ray, the group decided that a
Speaker 1: man named Michael Gardiner in nineteen eighty seven was next. Now,
Speaker 1: Michael was only nineteen at the time, and he was
Speaker 1: when he was murdered. He was an openly gay cross dresser,
Speaker 1: and John believed that Michael was doing something inherently wrong,
Speaker 1: so he convinced his friend Robert Wagner to strangle him
Speaker 1: to death.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yep. So after he was murdered, John had one of
Speaker 1: his friends, Frederick Brooks, call his friends and impersonate him.
Speaker 1: He was acting as Michael and demanded the belongings from
Speaker 1: Michael's wallet, saying that he needed it for identification and
Speaker 1: payment purposes. But of course, what we know they wanted
Speaker 1: these items teaing access to his money mm hmm and
Speaker 1: poach money off him from his welfare payments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's next level, right, literally just murdering this person
Speaker 2: and also like taking their identity basically and stealing all
Speaker 2: their money, like ugh.
Speaker 1: Just because of the way he dressed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no reason whatsoever for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Michael's body was one of the bodies found
Speaker 1: inside the six barrels at the bank vault. He was
Speaker 1: found inside the same barrel as many other victims, and
Speaker 1: one of Michael's feet had actually been removed from his
Speaker 1: body so that the lid of the drum could be closed.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah wow, Okay, that is another visual and a half.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so sleep with that one tonight.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks.
Speaker 1: Now, the murders like this went on and on. The
Speaker 1: next victim was Barry Lane, who was forty two when
Speaker 1: he was also killed for being homosexual. Now, interestingly enough, though,
Speaker 1: Barry was actually in a recent relationship with one of
Speaker 1: the three men, Robert, from nineteen eighty five to nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety six.
Speaker 2: Okay, so, like, did these men know that one of
Speaker 2: them was was homosexual? Yep, But then they're still killing
Speaker 2: other people who are homosexual, thinking that's wrong?
Speaker 1: Yep?
Speaker 2: What the fuck? Okay, that hurts my brain. I'm confused. Yep,
Speaker 2: very confused.
Speaker 1: So the couple lived together in a small house on
Speaker 1: Bingham Road in Salisbury North, near where John was living
Speaker 1: at the time. Now, the relationship had begun when they
Speaker 1: were only thirteen, and it was a long lasting part
Speaker 1: of Robert's life. Now, although Robert himself had been in
Speaker 1: the relationship with men he agreed with John that homosexuals
Speaker 1: deserve to be punished.
Speaker 2: What yeah, Wow, Like, I don't even know what to
Speaker 2: say to that. That doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: How fucking ass backwards is that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? That's literally, like we've already said, he is just
Speaker 2: making hit up in his brain to like serve him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly what he's doing.
Speaker 2: Fucked.
Speaker 1: John often referred to Barry as being a dirty man
Speaker 1: and even as a pedophile.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Barry was tortured and strangled, and his body was eventually
Speaker 1: wrapped in a carpet and disposed of in one of
Speaker 1: the barrels that would later be placed in the bank vaults.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll just pick my drop from the ground here.
Speaker 1: During the killings, though, John forced Barry to call his
Speaker 1: mother and explain to her that he would be moving
Speaker 1: to Queensland and then he never wanted anything to do
Speaker 1: with her for the rest of his life.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, I hate that, right, that actually breaks my heart?
Speaker 1: Like, how fucking you like words?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: No, fucking stew of words that I want to spew
Speaker 1: out describing these motherfuckers.
Speaker 2: Like that is so sad, right, yikes?
Speaker 1: Forcing him, forcing him as he's being tortured to call
Speaker 1: his mom and saying, don't want anything to do with
Speaker 1: you for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Like, that's almost worse than the torture.
Speaker 1: Damn near Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to have to call your loved one and then
Speaker 2: make there You're like just extending your pain to them.
Speaker 1: Oh and imagine the mother's reaction when finding out the
Speaker 1: truth years later and what happened.
Speaker 2: My gosh, I could actually bawl my face off. This
Speaker 2: is making me too emotional. We got to move on, You.
Speaker 1: Want to move on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so sad.
Speaker 1: Okay. So Barry actually had an interesting role in John's
Speaker 1: murder spree, though according to some sources, John's only only
Speaker 1: associated himself with Barry to gain information about other pedophiles
Speaker 1: living in the area. Since he had previously been involved
Speaker 1: in another murder, Barry knew a little too much information
Speaker 1: for John to be comfortable with. Okay, So John got
Speaker 1: win that he had apparently been talking and telling people
Speaker 1: about a murder. So John killed him.
Speaker 2: Hm.
Speaker 1: So was it really about his sexuality or anything? Or
Speaker 1: was it just that he knew too much?
Speaker 2: Probably that he knew too much?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So after his murder, John took control of Barry's
Speaker 1: vehicle and was able to claim his welfare payment again
Speaker 1: the money, but he needed help with concealing Barry's murder
Speaker 1: as well, so he reached out to his friend Thomas
Speaker 1: Trevallian to help cover up the case and the evidence.
Speaker 1: Now Thomas would also eventually become a victim unfortunately, and
Speaker 1: the case of Thomas is quite interesting because his death
Speaker 1: was originally ruled suicide, so he had assisted John in
Speaker 1: his most recent escapade if you will. Now he was
Speaker 1: diagnosed as schizophrenic and he had suffered from extreme paranoid hallucinations.
Speaker 1: Thomas's body was found hanging from a tree in Adelaine
Speaker 1: in October of nineteen ninety seven. He was forced to
Speaker 1: stand on a box with a noose fastened around his necks.
Speaker 1: Then John kicked the box out from underneath him, killing
Speaker 1: him nearly instantly, Which is good that it was instant, because.
Speaker 2: It wasn't suffering there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if a hanging is done correctly, it breaks the
Speaker 1: neck rather than strangles you slowly, So that is good
Speaker 1: at the very least that he didn't suffer. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean?
Speaker 2: I know, I Meania.
Speaker 1: But Thomas was not like the rest of the group.
Speaker 1: He lived quite unusual, like an unusual lifestyle, and he
Speaker 1: was filled with fear and paranoia. Thomas was known to
Speaker 1: run outside of his house with a knife if he
Speaker 1: heard unfamiliar noises. Also regularly travel extremely long distances on foot,
Speaker 1: so when investigators originally found him, they assumed that his
Speaker 1: mental illness had gotten the best of him and eventually
Speaker 1: resulted in his death. It wasn't until years later that
Speaker 1: Thomas's murder was linked to this case.
Speaker 2: You know, I almost wonder if these people are actually
Speaker 2: thinking ahead, because like the deaths aren't all the same, right,
Speaker 2: and so if they're almost planning how they can get
Speaker 2: away with this, Like they knew this person's history, and
Speaker 2: so they're going to plan it as a hanging and
Speaker 2: then people won't be as suspicious.
Speaker 1: I definitely think they were planning ahead with a lot
Speaker 1: of these Yes, yes, especially if he's got a spider
Speaker 1: wall in his spare room.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that already. So yeah,
Speaker 2: there you go. So they're being like, I mean, I
Speaker 2: completely feel absolutely disgusting about saying this, but they're like
Speaker 2: being smarter, I guess, and like thinking it through, which
Speaker 2: I hate.
Speaker 1: They're I mean, I don't know if i'd use the
Speaker 1: word smart, but they're they're using their heads, they're.
Speaker 2: Using their noggin to like get away with this ridiculous,
Speaker 2: awful shit that they're doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the next victim was a man named Gavin Porter.
Speaker 1: Gavin briefly briefly lived with the aforementioned James, which is
Speaker 1: the fourth guy in the whole the whole group now,
Speaker 1: while they were on a methodone program so recovering from methmphetamines. Now.
Speaker 1: Gavin got into the group's bad side when John was
Speaker 1: accidentally pricked with a used syringe discarded by Gavin on
Speaker 1: a sofa one night. So as a result, while he
Speaker 1: was working on his car one night in April of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, and under the influence of some extremely
Speaker 1: heavy drugs, he fell asleep in the back seat and there,
Speaker 1: at the age of thirty one, he was strangled to
Speaker 1: death by both John and Robert. So after Gavin, the
Speaker 1: next or sorry, the next victim would be.
Speaker 2: Troy Gosh, this is just not ending.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Troy Ude was a specific victim to John
Speaker 1: because he was the older half brother of James. As
Speaker 1: you mentioned before, James had confided in John and told
Speaker 1: him about his older brother who sexually assaulted him as
Speaker 1: a child. Oh yes, so Troy is that older brother.
Speaker 1: Holy John believed that he was one of these men
Speaker 1: who just had it coming to him. He believed that
Speaker 1: Troy was intellectually disabled, and while he was sleeping one night,
Speaker 1: he was hit with it, says Planks, I'm assuming like
Speaker 1: a two by four or something over the head multiple
Speaker 1: times by the group and tortured before they finally killed
Speaker 1: him brutal.
Speaker 2: So these people are enjoying this. They are definitely enjoying this.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, one hundred percent, especially because there's torture involved.
Speaker 2: Right, It's very disturbing.
Speaker 1: And before Troy took his final breath on August of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, John forced him to apologize to his brother.
Speaker 1: This was the first murder that James actually had a
Speaker 1: direct role in. Up until now, he had never really
Speaker 1: been present for the murders, although he likely knew what
Speaker 1: was going on, but he was never really there.
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is.
Speaker 1: His first one. The next victim is a man by
Speaker 1: the name of Frederick Brooks. Now, if you recognize this name,
Speaker 1: it's because John had him involved in a previous murder.
Speaker 1: So in September of nineteen ninety eight, Frederick was handcuffed, gagged,
Speaker 1: and tortured violently before he was murdered by John and Robert. Now,
Speaker 1: by this time, John seemed to have a better idea
Speaker 1: of how to cover up his murders. They recorded Frederick
Speaker 1: speaking various sentences and phrases and all this sort of
Speaker 1: stuff to help cover up his disappearance. Some way, they
Speaker 1: were able to make it seem as if he had
Speaker 1: disappeared and there was almost no reason to look for him. Basically,
Speaker 1: so they used the recording audio to say this, and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what they did with it, but
Speaker 1: they use it to their advantage.
Speaker 2: Again, there's just thinking outside the box.
Speaker 1: Really, yeap, how to continue, how to get away with it,
Speaker 1: and how to just not be concerned basically. The next
Speaker 1: victim was Gary O'Dwyer, a twenty nine year old man
Speaker 1: who was a welfare recipient after suffering brain damage in
Speaker 1: a severe car crash. John had no reason to believe
Speaker 1: Gary was either a pedophile or was homosexual. Instead, he
Speaker 1: targeted Gary because he believed his brain damage following the
Speaker 1: car accident was actually a weakness.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, okay, I was wondering it was just
Speaker 2: going to be for the welfare check. But that's brutal.
Speaker 2: That's brutal because this person has been through it off.
Speaker 1: That is worse than chasing for the welfare check.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So after being out for drinks night in October
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety eight, the three men visited his home
Speaker 1: before torturing and killing him.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh wow.
Speaker 1: Later on, on November of twentieth of nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 1: John would then seek out Frederick's sister, Elizabeth Hayden.
Speaker 2: Why jeez right.
Speaker 1: She was the wife of Mark Hayden and Elizabeth's sister,
Speaker 1: Jody Elliot had a brief relationship with John in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety eight. Elizabeth was reported missing by her brother Garion
Speaker 1: to the local police at three pm the following day.
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth disappeared, it sparked police interest and quickly raised
Speaker 1: local suspicion. This brought eyes to John, since it was
Speaker 1: assumed that she had been targeted for refusing John's sexual
Speaker 1: advances while in a relationship with his friend. Okay, I know, right,
Speaker 1: but Elizabeth's disappearance was one of the main pieces of
Speaker 1: evidence that was used to tie John and the rest
Speaker 1: of the group to the fair. He is missing people
Speaker 1: and are missing person's report and the whole investigation is
Speaker 1: what originally led people to the bank vault to begin with.
Speaker 1: So finally, the last victim of John and the other
Speaker 1: two perpetrators was David Johnson. So David was the stepbrother
Speaker 1: of James. Sorry, big spider web of names and individuals
Speaker 1: connected here. I know it's hard to follow a little bit,
Speaker 1: but David was the step brother of James and was
Speaker 1: believed to be a homosexual by John, although he wasn't.
Speaker 1: James had recently told David about a computer that was
Speaker 1: for sale in another area is South Australia. He wanted
Speaker 1: to take him on a drive to take a look,
Speaker 1: so on the night of May ninth, nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: they hopped in the car and started driving to Snowtown.
Speaker 1: By James's driving skills, he's the one taking the wheel.
Speaker 1: Sorry that was a weird sentence. I said that his
Speaker 1: driving skills. James drove him, is what I was trying
Speaker 1: to say. And he drove them while the other three
Speaker 1: waited for his arrival. So shortly thereafter he was grabbed
Speaker 1: when he arrived by the throat from Robert and then
Speaker 1: Mark handcuffed him. So we have John, Mark and Robert
Speaker 1: who were waiting there. Those are the three, and then
Speaker 1: James is the one that drove. He's the fourth. So
Speaker 1: they forced him to read a script that John had
Speaker 1: already prepared, as well as provide them with a pin
Speaker 1: to his bank account. Of course yep. So his voice
Speaker 1: was recorded on computer equipment with a microphone and they
Speaker 1: kept it for whatever records they needed to help cover
Speaker 1: up or however, right, so, Robert and James then after
Speaker 1: the recording was done, drove to the bank to try
Speaker 1: and access to his moneies. However, they left behind John
Speaker 1: and Mark with David. So while they were at the bank,
Speaker 1: they were unsuccessful with drawing any funds. So they returned
Speaker 1: to find David already dead. They had strangled and beat
Speaker 1: him to death, chopping up his body in several pieces
Speaker 1: and disposing him into the barrels.
Speaker 2: And was that not the plan that he would have
Speaker 2: been dead when they came back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not necessarily, no, because they wanted to join in
Speaker 1: on that. Well, they hadn't even got to access his
Speaker 1: bank yet, he could have falsified the.
Speaker 2: Information, right, Oh okay, I see, yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 2: then they placed him in the barrels after chopping him up.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there is one thing, however, that sets David's
Speaker 1: tragic and apart from the others a little bit. Parts
Speaker 1: of his flesh were actually eaten by both John and Roberts.
Speaker 2: Oh I was not expecting that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they both claimed that they hadn't had enough fun killing.
Speaker 2: Him, so then they needed to consume him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after dismembering his body, they fried in eight parts
Speaker 1: of his flesh because you know, why the fuck not?
Speaker 2: Geez, this is escalating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which, well, David was the last victim of the group,
Speaker 1: and it just goes to show that if they didn't
Speaker 1: have enough fun killing him and they just started trying cannibalism,
Speaker 1: it would have begun to escalate much further if he
Speaker 1: wasn't the last.
Speaker 2: Like I was going to even say, if this was
Speaker 2: not the last victim they it would have just got
Speaker 2: much worse. How much oh, I don't even want to
Speaker 2: say it, but how much they would be consuming of
Speaker 2: the bodies? And oh right they should this not be
Speaker 2: a case I'm.
Speaker 1: Reading, damn near should be. I mean, you're you're the
Speaker 1: cannibalistic podcaster.
Speaker 2: I was like, I have to take a break from
Speaker 2: these ones. It's too much.
Speaker 1: So all these victims that we mentioned, and all the
Speaker 1: killings as well, went from nineteen ninety two to nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine, and all four of the men had gone
Speaker 1: unnoticed for the entire duration of the killing spree. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't until the investigation into Elizabeth's disappearance at the
Speaker 1: locals or sorry and the local suspicion, that the investigation
Speaker 1: actually began to up with anything and where it eventually,
Speaker 1: you know, took them to these barrels in the bank vault.
Speaker 2: Well, that is a long time spend to get away
Speaker 2: with this horrific shit.
Speaker 1: It is so in the bank vault. When they did
Speaker 1: find these barrels, all the victims were in well enough
Speaker 1: shape to be identified by body parts that were still available,
Speaker 1: and anyone who was dug up as well was able
Speaker 1: to be identified. But it wasn't until March of two
Speaker 1: thousand and one that the fourth man, James, was connected
Speaker 1: to the crimes. Since he had no direct involvement in
Speaker 1: most of them, he had gone unnoticed for quite some time.
Speaker 1: On May twenty third, two thousand and one, two more
Speaker 1: bodies were found in the backyard of a house in
Speaker 1: northern Adelaide. It wasn't just any house that they were
Speaker 1: found in, however, it was John's own backyard busted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's never a smart move to just bury
Speaker 1: bodies in your backyard.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like they have I have said this
Speaker 2: news times. They have thought something through. That is very
Speaker 2: much not thinking things through at all, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: And by June eleventh, the police were able to confirm
Speaker 1: eight of the identities of the murdered victims. By June
Speaker 1: twenty ninth came another, and then within a few weeks another,
Speaker 1: So all these confirmed identities led up to the ten
Speaker 1: total victims, the two buried the backyard and the eight
Speaker 1: in the barrels.
Speaker 2: I'm honestly surprisers at more for the time span and
Speaker 2: how messed up these people are, and how there's like
Speaker 2: four of them that are like perpetrators. I'm honestly surprised
Speaker 2: only ten. Like about you, there's more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do want to point out though there
Speaker 1: is no clear plotline on exactly what order these victims
Speaker 1: were identified in or anything, but we do know what
Speaker 1: time each victim became a victim of John's, which is
Speaker 1: good at least so then after this, the real trial
Speaker 1: began on July fourth of two thousand and one, when
Speaker 1: John I should say their full names actually John Bunting,
Speaker 1: Mark Hayden, and Robert Wagner just as the final get
Speaker 1: the full names in there were committed to stand trial
Speaker 1: on all ten accounts of murder. All three of the
Speaker 1: men pled not guilty. For the next year, evidence was
Speaker 1: gathered from both sides. Over this time, some of the
Speaker 1: jury members were actually discharged after saying that they couldn't
Speaker 1: continue because the murders were so horrific and rightfully.
Speaker 2: So, that would be quite a trial to be on
Speaker 2: for a jury.
Speaker 1: Could you, like, could you imagine being on this trial
Speaker 1: for over a year having to deal with this dismembered bodies, cannibalism,
Speaker 1: like just the whore, the torture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if I was ever a jury, I
Speaker 2: would want a case like that. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: lie because I would be very interesting, which I probably
Speaker 2: shouldn't say. But there are a lot of cases though,
Speaker 2: like it was just like a parking ticket or something
Speaker 2: that would just like be boord shitless sitting there right,
Speaker 2: fair enough.
Speaker 1: If you're gonna serve on a jury. You'd rather be
Speaker 1: a part of something than like some asshole who just
Speaker 1: doesn't want to pay five dollars for yeah, fucking.
Speaker 2: Parking space which probably don't even need juries.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so no, I can't blame these jurors at all.
Speaker 1: If they can't continue on the case.
Speaker 2: It would be that it would be very rough, I
Speaker 2: could imagine, would play a big toll on your mental health.
Speaker 1: Percent Yeah, and jurors that were actually coming back onto
Speaker 1: the trial or anything, they were being warned that this
Speaker 1: is this case is quote most unpleasant.
Speaker 2: That's a way to put it.
Speaker 1: That's that's definitely a way to describe it. By September eighth,
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, Robert and John were both found
Speaker 1: guilty in all ten charges. Of course, they also appealed
Speaker 1: their chargers charges later in the month, but they were
Speaker 1: refused a trial. Luckily, they were refused a non or
Speaker 1: they refused a non parole sentence, meaning that they were
Speaker 1: very unlikely to ever spend time outside of jail, and
Speaker 1: it's likely that they'll spend the rest of their life.
Speaker 2: Behind bars, which thankfully so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also important to note that it's that an
Speaker 1: alleged victim an eleventh person was involved with this trial.
Speaker 1: Prosecutors also believed that Susanne Allen, the forty seven year
Speaker 1: old John's ex girlfriend, was also murdered by the group.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I still think that there's probably more. I
Speaker 2: was probably worried that you were going to say, like
Speaker 2: someone one of the investigators or like a jury person
Speaker 2: like or like committed suicide or something.
Speaker 1: Thankfully, Yeah, but involving this eleventh death, the jury could
Speaker 1: never could not reach a verdict unfortunately, so it's unknown
Speaker 1: if John actually played a part in her disappearance or not.
Speaker 2: So there just wasn't enough evidence then.
Speaker 1: Apparently, however, some of the I'll talk about some of
Speaker 1: the evidence surrounding her a little bit here. Her remains
Speaker 1: were found buried in John's backyard. Her body was dismembered
Speaker 1: and wrapped in eleven different plastic bags. Okay, And while
Speaker 1: she was deceased, John continued to collect her pension until
Speaker 1: he gained approximately seventeen thousand dollars off of her.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like, right there, he looks incredibly guilty,
Speaker 2: right Like, I just feel like guilty, Like I don't
Speaker 2: even know if I'd have to hear anymore.
Speaker 1: I know his defense, he claimed that she had died
Speaker 1: of a heart attack, though, and then.
Speaker 2: He just decided to like chop up her body and
Speaker 2: like bury in the backyard instead of just like calling
Speaker 2: someone and saying this person had a heart attack. Yep,
Speaker 2: I know, I'm I guess potentially, potentially that could be
Speaker 2: potentially if he was just wanting to like collect the
Speaker 2: welfare check, because if he did call the heart attack in,
Speaker 2: then he would not be able to go about getting
Speaker 2: the wealthy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, at the very least, he desecrated human remains
Speaker 1: and committed fraud at the very least on that one.
Speaker 2: And he probably did murder her as well. But I
Speaker 2: guess I can kind of see a slim possibility where
Speaker 2: he didn't.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that he didn't at all.
Speaker 2: Playing I'm really playing the devil's out to get here.
Speaker 1: They really are so regardless, though, in her case, the
Speaker 1: charges and prosecution were dropped, apparently to lack of evidence
Speaker 1: pointing to any perpetrator for that one. Now, the third
Speaker 1: man involved, Mark had his trial again on August second
Speaker 1: of two thousand and four. His case in this role
Speaker 1: is a little bit different. Sorry, his role in this
Speaker 1: case is a little bit different. My dyslexia is showing,
Speaker 1: even though I'm not dyslexic.
Speaker 2: Just lit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Since his wife was one of the victims, the
Speaker 1: jury had a very strong hatred towards him. He had
Speaker 1: claimed that he and his wife were trying to have
Speaker 1: a baby when she disappeared, and then after that his
Speaker 1: entire world fell apart. That's when he began began to
Speaker 1: be involved with the murders and he felt like he
Speaker 1: just had nothing to live for anymore. So on December nineteenth,
Speaker 1: after deliberating for nine days, the jury failed to reach
Speaker 1: a conclusion. Really yeah, But eventually he was convicted on
Speaker 1: five accounts of assisting with murder and sentenced to twenty
Speaker 1: five years.
Speaker 2: It's not enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So in the case of James Vlaskis, he pleaded
Speaker 1: guilty to four of the murders and was sentenced to
Speaker 1: four consecutive life sentences. Okay, yeah. To this day, however,
Speaker 1: this is the longest trial in South Australian history due
Speaker 1: to the number of victims and the accumulating information over
Speaker 1: the amount of time and years it took took juries
Speaker 1: and courts to sift through it all.
Speaker 2: Well, I just can only imagine the amount of evidence
Speaker 2: that they had, like even all the bodies and everything.
Speaker 1: Oh, identifying the bodies a lot, can you imagine?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just like witnesses and people to talk to,
Speaker 2: like it's never ending, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Oh and then of course you're exhooming the bodies from
Speaker 1: not only the bank vault, from someone's backyard, and they're
Speaker 1: not in a single grave, they're in pieces, clearly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and with all Like, I'm sure it was confusing listening
Speaker 1: to this case because of all the spider web of names.
Speaker 1: There's this person, there's that person, back and forth. So
Speaker 1: trying to track down all these people get statements and
Speaker 1: I'm sure, like we're talking years after they've been involved,
Speaker 1: like a decade, So trying to even track them down
Speaker 1: to start with would have been fun to say the least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think this would be like hell to
Speaker 2: investigate one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: So the details of this case of course horrified the public,
Speaker 1: and it's caused a continuing effect on Snowtown. The murders
Speaker 1: garnered much unwanted attention for the entire community, and at
Speaker 1: this point the town is best known for this murder case.
Speaker 1: Being such a small town with very little history on
Speaker 1: its own locals actually originally tried to change the name
Speaker 1: to something else. They kind of brought the suggestion yeap
Speaker 1: to welcome visitors, draw attention.
Speaker 2: You know, Oh, that's kind of that. That's sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some some people suggested Rose Town. It didn't quite
Speaker 1: stick though, I like that. Yeah, but so today it's
Speaker 1: still Snowtown.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's like really sad. There's two things in this case.
Speaker 2: I'm too emotionally that's brutally sad.
Speaker 1: It is this little town like trying to like clean
Speaker 1: this smudge from this these fucking assholes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like these disgusting humans that just did not deserve
Speaker 2: to be there. And oh that I don't know, that's sad.
Speaker 2: That hurts my heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well there is one little bit of of niceness
Speaker 1: that came out of this. John's house had actually been
Speaker 1: taken ownership by the Australian Housing Trust and it had
Speaker 1: been demolished, okay, and units were actually created in place
Speaker 1: for elderly people in the area. Oh wow, And I
Speaker 1: really really really hope that there are some homosexual elderly
Speaker 1: people in that housing unit right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be right, that would be perfect.
Speaker 1: That would just be the ultimate fuck you to that
Speaker 1: fucking piece of human trash.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they should have almost made it that like low
Speaker 2: income for like LGBTQ or something like that for homosexual
Speaker 2: people or something, and just like that. I feel like
Speaker 2: that would be even better.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So but the fact that it's still something of good
Speaker 2: is nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that. So that's the case. That's the
Speaker 1: Snowtown murders or bodies in a barrel.
Speaker 2: And like you said, yeah, I mean the fact that
Speaker 2: they used a spider web. That case is a spider
Speaker 2: web and a half.
Speaker 1: It is. It's back and forth. There's there's too many
Speaker 1: people involved to make it simple. Basically, when you look
Speaker 1: at it as a linear like timeline, it's pretty basic.
Speaker 1: But as soon as you start involving all the names,
Speaker 1: it gets real confusing.
Speaker 2: When a lot of them are connected and stuff too,
Speaker 2: which is like adds another level.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, with that, we appreciate you guys being here.
Speaker 1: Of course, we have all the information down below. You
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Speaker 1: We've got a website. All of it's down below. If
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Speaker 1: get that all behind the exclusive scenes content coming up,
Speaker 1: especially with a lot coming on Halloween week. If not,
Speaker 1: you just want to be here for regular episodes, We
Speaker 1: appreciate that too, and like I said, stick around for
Speaker 1: Halloween week because seven straight days of epic stop coming your.
Speaker 2: Way basically two weeks.
Speaker 1: Tom Yeah, So thank you for being here, thank you
Speaker 1: for being awesome, and of course, until next time, stay Wicked.