Speaker 1: Oh, be the.
Speaker 2: Trigger.
Speaker 1: Warn This podcast may include explicit content that will take
Speaker 1: you out of your comfort zone and make you question reality.
Speaker 2: Listeners, discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the show. This is the
Speaker 1: Brain and new mini series Blood Ties, And as I
Speaker 1: kind of gave like a hint about in the recap show,
Speaker 1: this series is going to be more about serial killers
Speaker 1: and Charles Manson and some of the bigger serial killers
Speaker 1: that I didn't mention in the previous series, the Ted Bundy,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, Zodiac. We're going to be taking a little
Speaker 1: bit closer look at them. So, as we always do,
Speaker 1: we're gonna start out with a quote. And before we
Speaker 1: do that, I have a co host on this series.
Speaker 1: It is Colby from Conspiracy Playtime. We're going to be
Speaker 1: working on this together. I'm really excited about it. Kolbe,
Speaker 1: how are you super?
Speaker 2: Thanks for asking me?
Speaker 3: Are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good and yeah, I'm just really excited to get
Speaker 1: into this one. It's something that Colby and I had
Speaker 1: talked about before. We both read Program to Kill and
Speaker 1: we talk about it all the time, but it's better
Speaker 1: to dig into it a little bit for the series,
Speaker 1: just because I think it's something that is obvious but
Speaker 1: not a lot of people talk about. And there is
Speaker 1: a lot of documentaries and a lot of movies that
Speaker 1: convince people it's one way, but it's actually not that
Speaker 1: way at all. Like the Zodiac movie with Robert Downey,
Speaker 1: which is really good. I like it, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: with the supers, But don't you feel like they were
Speaker 1: making it to like it had to be that one
Speaker 1: fat guy?
Speaker 2: Well, right off the bat of forgetting that, I think
Speaker 2: that David Fincher's pretty well known to take movies that
Speaker 2: are semi true and give the mainstream version of them,
Speaker 2: like Social.
Speaker 1: Network, Because in that movie, like I said, I like it,
Speaker 1: I think it's a good movie. But I think if
Speaker 1: you didn't know anything about Zodiac and then you watched that,
Speaker 1: you would think like, oh, well that's probably Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, Zodiac, out of all the ones we're going
Speaker 2: to be talking about that you just listed, is the
Speaker 2: one I probably know the least about. But I always
Speaker 2: kind of had my own opinion on what that whole
Speaker 2: thing was. Yeah, I think that movie's definitely trying to
Speaker 2: rap a nice little bow on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, do you think that it was one guy?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's good. Then we can at least agree
Speaker 1: on that before we really get into it. But so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read us a quote and it's Otis Tool
Speaker 1: and Henry Lee Lucas, and it was a conversation they
Speaker 1: were having. I got this from Henry Lee Lucas's book,
Speaker 1: and right before we started recording, I watched the the
Speaker 1: trailer for The Confession Killer on Netflix, and again I
Speaker 1: feel like they do a great job like not telling
Speaker 1: the truth about shit.
Speaker 2: Look at Henry.
Speaker 3: He's pleasant, he's non threatening, and actually a killing machine.
Speaker 2: A killing machine. None of the film Serial Murderers approaches
Speaker 2: the record of Henry Lee Lucas.
Speaker 3: Henry Lee Lucas has killed one hundred women at least
Speaker 3: three hundred and sixty people.
Speaker 1: Lucas was a drifter who murdered at random during an
Speaker 1: eight year spree. Either they found the world's worst serial
Speaker 1: killer or that was the biggest hoasts in American criminal
Speaker 1: justice history. I would give him a pencil. He would
Speaker 1: sit there and drop pictures and describe what they were wearing,
Speaker 1: how they were killers, shootings, strangulations, knife ands.
Speaker 2: I've killed them in every way. There is no Lucas
Speaker 2: was confessing to the unsolved murder.
Speaker 1: But before him, I started getting calls from law enforcement
Speaker 1: all over, people say why, why are you doing it?
Speaker 1: It was making him feel as though he was contributing.
Speaker 1: They didn't treat him as a killer, but as a friend.
Speaker 2: Oh, you got to handcuff. Henry never lived so good.
Speaker 2: Every day, Roddy move, strawberry milkshake. It was like he
Speaker 2: was a movie star.
Speaker 4: From that point, it went to hell in a hand
Speaker 4: basket quick.
Speaker 1: What I'd been believing for all these years was Henry
Speaker 1: did it. There is not one shred of evidence to
Speaker 1: show that Lucas killed my mother.
Speaker 2: The police work was less than competent. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of emotions with that.
Speaker 1: One hundred and ninety seven cases were closed that should
Speaker 1: still be open.
Speaker 2: We were up against very powerful people.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If someone has something to hip, nobody
Speaker 1: else gonna solve and macept me. He was playing them
Speaker 1: like a Voley and.
Speaker 2: The lied, lied, lied. If Lucas didn't kill all those people.
Speaker 1: Who did, it was a piece of shit documentary that
Speaker 1: was like half accurate, well.
Speaker 2: If I remember correctly, because I watched about half of
Speaker 2: it before I got sick of it. They kind of
Speaker 2: do talk about the fact that Henry Le Lucas took
Speaker 2: credit for.
Speaker 1: A lot of shit he didn't do right, But they
Speaker 1: made it to where like he was just a fucking retard, right,
Speaker 1: and that's why he did it. Like they could just
Speaker 1: be like, oh, we'll get you chicken nugget meal if
Speaker 1: you confess to this one.
Speaker 2: Well, I was kind of surprised that they even went
Speaker 2: that far admitting that he wasn't the prolific serial killer
Speaker 2: that we all thought he was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I say it all the time. The
Speaker 1: Netflix documentaries are like the worst things to watch if
Speaker 1: you're trying to learn some shit about this stuff. But
Speaker 1: the quote is otis tool. He said, I've been meaning
Speaker 1: to ask you that time when I cooked some of
Speaker 1: these people, why'd I do that? Henry Lee Lucas. I
Speaker 1: think it was just the hands doing it. I know
Speaker 1: a lot of things we've done in human sight are
Speaker 1: impossible to believe. Otis tool. When we took him out
Speaker 1: and cut him up. Remember one time I said, I
Speaker 1: wanted me some ribs? Does that make me a cannibal? Lucas,
Speaker 1: You wasn't a cannibal. It's the force of the devil.
Speaker 1: Something forced on us that we can't change. There's no
Speaker 1: reason denying what we become. We know what we are.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: I don't know. You told me this was from his book,
Speaker 2: Henry Lucas's book, which I didn't even know existed. And
Speaker 2: I do think that while there might be some truth
Speaker 2: to this, he also was probably playing into the legend
Speaker 2: built around.
Speaker 1: Him, like he was okay with people thinking he was
Speaker 1: a prolific monster because it made him someone.
Speaker 2: Well, he definitely seemed to bask in the limelight.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, for a milkshake and cigarettes.
Speaker 2: But he wasn't afraid of looking like, yeah, the devil
Speaker 2: to mainstream societies.
Speaker 1: What do you think about otis tool? Though he liked
Speaker 1: ribs and he was a cannibal.
Speaker 2: And well, I know the Otis tool. Like if you
Speaker 2: read Program to Kill, he wasn't just a country bump
Speaker 2: fuck kind of guy.
Speaker 1: And his parents and his mom dressed him like a girl.
Speaker 2: And yeah, the whole nine, the yeah formula.
Speaker 1: So they obviously came up a lot in my Program
Speaker 1: to Kill series. But I'm honestly, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: beating a dead horse sometimes when I talk about the
Speaker 1: two of them, they're a prime example of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about. But I do think there is a ritualistic
Speaker 1: component to some of the stuff that they get up to.
Speaker 1: Like they're saying like it's the force of the devil.
Speaker 1: Do you think, I mean, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1: Because I think that there's an element of truth to that.
Speaker 2: If the devil's the CIA.
Speaker 1: Do you think that they were like programmed and that's it,
Speaker 1: there was no ritualistic aspect to it.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's ritual aspects to the programming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I guess that opens us up
Speaker 1: to start talking about Charles Manson then, since you brought
Speaker 1: up the CIA, because I have some notes here and
Speaker 1: we're going to just go through them and talk about
Speaker 1: them together. But March twenty first, nineteen sixty seven, the
Speaker 1: Spring Equinox, Charles Manson was released from prison and given
Speaker 1: transport to San Francisco, where, despite having served virtually his
Speaker 1: entire adult life in prison, he immediately started gathering devoted followers,
Speaker 1: many recruited from the various Satanic groups blossoming in that area.
Speaker 1: So again, I feel like there is a ritualistic aspect
Speaker 1: to this as well. As you know, I always say,
Speaker 1: you can't separate government from ritualism because they're synonymous. There's
Speaker 1: usually a little bit of both with this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because our government was formed by old school
Speaker 2: secret societies, and if they're you know, carrying into semi
Speaker 2: modern day the sixties, what they were into from the beginning,
Speaker 2: of course, there would be a lot of that.
Speaker 1: Well, the reason that I put this in my notes
Speaker 1: is because despite having served most of his adult life
Speaker 1: in prison.
Speaker 2: And most of his you know, like past the age
Speaker 2: of twelve, this is incarcerated.
Speaker 1: So a lot of these programs they look for people
Speaker 1: where they go to mental institutions and they go to
Speaker 1: fucking prisons or or fucking Manson. Fucking was that Boystown
Speaker 1: at one point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's obvious that Manson had some hooks
Speaker 2: in him from the beginning, where he got the attention of,
Speaker 2: you know, the people that would grab a hold of
Speaker 2: him and turn him into what he was. It's debatable.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of good stuff and a
Speaker 2: lot of research and different books, but if this guy
Speaker 2: from the age of twelve was in and out of
Speaker 2: the system, it could have started.
Speaker 1: As he was primed. Yeah, it was prime They.
Speaker 2: Noticed that this guy was smart and charismatic and had
Speaker 2: a flare.
Speaker 1: For the celebrity, and so spring of the following year,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, Manson loaded his new followers into a
Speaker 1: bus and took them on the road, settling into the
Speaker 1: Los Angeles area, where Charlie somehow established numerous prominent contacts
Speaker 1: in the entertainment industry, which a lot of people know
Speaker 1: about because we even on the recap show, Dennis Wilson
Speaker 1: was brought up. But he was best siesed with all
Speaker 1: of them. They make it out like he wasn't he
Speaker 1: wasn't like popular, and he was. Actually he was like
Speaker 1: one of them.
Speaker 2: Well, there was a lot of people I see reading
Speaker 2: ahead that Neil Young. Neil Young really thought that Charlie
Speaker 2: had something. Yeah, and he admits it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should. I should probably just read his quote then,
Speaker 1: because he told an interviewer that quote. A lot of
Speaker 1: pretty well known musicians around LA knew him, though they'd
Speaker 1: probably deny it now end quote.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I at some point I was researching Frank Zappa
Speaker 2: and it man, if I remember right, it seemed like
Speaker 2: Frank was one of the ones who got a bad
Speaker 2: vibe from him, didn't want him around. But there was others,
Speaker 2: like you mentioned Dennis Wilson who held parties and also
Speaker 2: let Charlie and some of his girls stay there for
Speaker 2: like weeks weeks.
Speaker 1: Like almost like move in with him.
Speaker 2: Kind of, Yeah, they did take over, but at one
Speaker 2: point Dennis physically removed them from his house. He got
Speaker 2: sick of it. But at what point?
Speaker 1: And like he was like footing the bill for like
Speaker 1: all of their fucking escapades and shit too, because they
Speaker 1: were like just they would just wander around the canyon
Speaker 1: kind of. You know.
Speaker 2: Something I wanted to say when you were talking about
Speaker 2: Manson loading up his followers into a bus. This is
Speaker 2: a formula you see again with Ken Kesey and the
Speaker 2: Mary Pranksters, where you have a likely CIA connected guy
Speaker 2: loading up some freaks and then going on whatever mission
Speaker 2: was assigned to them.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. And Neil Young, by the way, knew Charlie
Speaker 1: and his girls really well and actually tried to get
Speaker 1: the head of Warner Brothers to sign the aspiring singer songwriter.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't he. I highlighted his name in my
Speaker 1: notes because you know better than I do. But wasn't
Speaker 1: Neil Young one of the vaccine pusher. Fucking yeah he got.
Speaker 2: I didn't do a beef with Spotify over them platforming
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan and then removed like the forty nine percent
Speaker 2: of his catalog that he owns. But he since came
Speaker 2: crawling back. But yeah, he was definitely.
Speaker 1: Because people were just gonna leave Spotify over that. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, because he's just like the end all be all.
Speaker 2: Neil Young has always thought pretty highly of himself, and
Speaker 2: he probably did think he had more sway than he
Speaker 2: actually did, and he found out the hard way.
Speaker 1: But he was one of those vaccine pusher, like you
Speaker 1: get the turn, Yeah, basically so. And he was eating Charlie's.
Speaker 2: Ass apparently probably tasted like chicken.
Speaker 1: Cat chicken, all right, So just so happens this same year,
Speaker 1: on December twentieth, nineteen sixty eight, year the Winter Solstice,
Speaker 1: the first of the Zodiac murders rocked the San Francisco area.
Speaker 1: A man was shot once in the head at point
Speaker 1: blank range with a twenty two and his female companion
Speaker 1: was shot multiple times with the same weapon, and a
Speaker 1: detective working the case noted that the male victim had
Speaker 1: recently learned of a major drug deal that was about
Speaker 1: to go down, and he had been talking openly about
Speaker 1: who was involved in the transaction. So I said in
Speaker 1: the recap episode, because Jonathan actually asked me, why do
Speaker 1: they program serial killers? What do they get from it?
Speaker 1: And it's he said, like it's to sensationalized into like
Speaker 1: terrify people. And I said that maybe a component of it,
Speaker 1: but really what it seems like to me is a
Speaker 1: lot of these random killings are mixed in with like
Speaker 1: assassination type killings where they're taking out specific people because
Speaker 1: of something they know or something they're trying to hide
Speaker 1: or and then like nobody ever really knows.
Speaker 2: Well, I think you're both right, and what better way
Speaker 2: to like utilize somebody to the full capacity, like if
Speaker 2: you can sensationalize violence. And it's been said by many
Speaker 2: of us in the community that the modern day serial
Speaker 2: killer is the school shooter or just a mass shooter
Speaker 2: in general, because you can take these people, have them
Speaker 2: take out specific targets in certain instances, like one of
Speaker 2: the people that got killed in Buffalo, New York, that
Speaker 2: shooting that they tried to make a race thing. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you remember that. That was like twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two, maybe like the very end of the year
Speaker 2: and one of the serial excuse me, one of the guards,
Speaker 2: the security guards at the store, was the first to
Speaker 2: get taken out, if you belief that thing was even real.
Speaker 2: But he was somebody who had been working on a
Speaker 2: hydrogen powered engine or something like that.
Speaker 1: Shut up.
Speaker 2: Just so weird that he happened to be a victim
Speaker 2: in this random mass shooting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, oh my god, serial.
Speaker 2: Killers in the sixties and seventies, definitely, I think Jonathan's
Speaker 2: onto something there with like the sensationalized like mass terror
Speaker 2: and with you know what we think of today with
Speaker 2: mass shootings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're also taking out target of course. And
Speaker 1: I so, do you think that there's any correlation between
Speaker 1: all this Manson stuff happening and then December of that
Speaker 1: same year the first Zodiac murder?
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Leg So, could they be linked in some way because
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: Like some of Manson's victims were actually.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it wasn't the same year. Oh no,
Speaker 1: it was, because it was spring of nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 1: Manson loaded his followers into bus and took him on
Speaker 1: the road. And then December of that same year, the
Speaker 1: first Zodiac murder was in the San Francisco area. And
Speaker 1: while this one may be more of like a intentional
Speaker 1: killing because this guy knew something about a drug deal
Speaker 1: or something like that, I think like the Tate murder,
Speaker 1: in the Labyanca murder and the Zodiac murders have a
Speaker 1: lot of similarities in the time and the general vicinity
Speaker 1: of where they took place in California.
Speaker 2: Well, not to mention that Manson frequented the Free Sex
Speaker 2: Clinic in Hayde Ashbury, where he may have very well
Speaker 2: repped shoulders with Jolly West, who's like the forest Gump
Speaker 2: of the CIA.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is if you get into to like
Speaker 2: some of the research that Tom O'Neill did for his
Speaker 2: book Chaos, which say what you want about that book,
Speaker 2: a lot of people are starting to call it out
Speaker 2: for certain elements of like keeping the lid on certain things.
Speaker 2: And this is news to me, and it kind of
Speaker 2: sucks because I thought that was one of the best
Speaker 2: Manson books ever written. But anyway, he all but links
Speaker 2: Manson and Jolly West with the Free Sex Clinic. So
Speaker 2: Manson was going up and down the entire coast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying like la.
Speaker 2: So in that time for him, he definitely would have
Speaker 2: possibly been.
Speaker 1: And we really don't know who the Zodiac is, Like
Speaker 1: I think it's multiple assailants, but who used to say
Speaker 1: he wasn't one of them.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I don't even know if there
Speaker 2: was a Zodiac. It was just a convenient way to like,
Speaker 2: like what Jonathan was talking about, scare the shit out
Speaker 2: of people. But also, yeah, they were.
Speaker 1: With this guy with like the paper bag over his
Speaker 1: head in the fucking Apron and like, but I will
Speaker 1: actually get into that.
Speaker 2: Like the letters and shit that were sent to the newspapers,
Speaker 2: which is covered extensively in the Fincher movie Zodiac.
Speaker 1: But doesn't that make for a good movie though? The
Speaker 1: way that it went down.
Speaker 2: It was the Yeah, so it was a movie. It
Speaker 2: was people turning into nightly news to see the next
Speaker 2: cipher or to try to figure out the cipher of
Speaker 2: the next or of the most recent letter that the zodiaccent.
Speaker 1: Like people got obsessed with it.
Speaker 2: It was like instead of fucking Sunday Morning Cross where
Speaker 2: it puzzles over coffee, it was like, let's see if
Speaker 2: we can I mean, and in the movie, it's like
Speaker 2: a person who is.
Speaker 1: A big fat fot that worked out a fucking mechanic place.
Speaker 2: Well, no, no, I'm saying there was someone who called in
Speaker 2: after watching the news and thought that he had broken
Speaker 2: the code.
Speaker 1: Oh, a lot of people thought that they broke the code.
Speaker 1: They were like obsessing over it, actually.
Speaker 2: And I mean that could be a whole part of it.
Speaker 2: You get the population the TV watchers fixated on.
Speaker 1: This shit and trying to decipher codes and shit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm I do have in my notes. It would
Speaker 1: later be speculated that the Zodiac killings actually began in
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles area on the eve of Halloween nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty six, just a few months after the rampages of
Speaker 1: Richard Speck, which I spoke about in the last episode
Speaker 1: of program Ticket No. Part five. That's the one that
Speaker 1: was out of order that people were having a hard
Speaker 1: time finding. I talked about Richard spec and Charles Whitman.
Speaker 1: And so the reason why they speculate that it actually
Speaker 1: started earlier in nineteen sixty six was because of this
Speaker 1: victim named Sherry Joe Bates, and a lot of investigators
Speaker 1: think that she was the first murder victim of the
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer but they liked to sweep this one under
Speaker 1: the rug for some reason. But she had been stabbed
Speaker 1: in the chest and her throat had been slit so
Speaker 1: deeply that she was nearly decapitated, and a wristwatch of
Speaker 1: military origin had been found at the crime scene, along
Speaker 1: with a military style heel print, and with a lot
Speaker 1: of the Zodiac crime scenes, they noticed a military style
Speaker 1: bootprint and they described him as being clean cut, with
Speaker 1: like a crew cut. And so this is why they
Speaker 1: put put it on one man, and they put it
Speaker 1: on someone that may have been in the military.
Speaker 2: Your thoughts on that, well, if you take a look
Speaker 2: at win serial killers started allegedly popping up, it was
Speaker 2: after a lot of men had come home from the
Speaker 2: Vietnam War had been enlisted in you know, missions such
Speaker 2: as the Phoenix program where they would teach these and
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, you could probably put Dahmer
Speaker 2: in this in a later era. But when they psychologically
Speaker 2: test you to find out where they're going to put
Speaker 2: you and whatnot, there's a lot of military programs who
Speaker 2: want the crazy fox and the Phoenix program would be
Speaker 2: a great example of this. And this ties into some
Speaker 2: of your earlier work with the Franklin scandal where you
Speaker 2: had the camp and William Colby of the CIA fucking
Speaker 2: coming in and giving us the narrative on the Franklin Scandal.
Speaker 2: These guys were, you know, basically running the Phoenix program.
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure so sure about the Camp, but
Speaker 2: definitely William Colby.
Speaker 1: But they were besties. Yeah, and he ran the fucking
Speaker 1: Franklin fucking cover up exactly.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people came home from the war
Speaker 2: having just been set loose to you know, go savage
Speaker 2: on the villages to send a message to the viet Cong,
Speaker 2: and they were doing unspeakable acts and they were you know,
Speaker 2: put there by the United States military, and so a
Speaker 2: lot of these guys they had the on switch flipped
Speaker 2: and then they come home and you think they're going
Speaker 2: to be able to switch that shit off. Most of
Speaker 2: these people just needed a little shove into the right
Speaker 2: direction or wrong direction to become just mass killers. And
Speaker 2: so I think a lot of these serial murders were
Speaker 2: just I mean, I don't know it, just.
Speaker 1: One of those crazy fucks that came home from the
Speaker 1: Phoenix program and they did a little bit extra shit
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 2: I don't even know if it was like used. I
Speaker 2: think they were used for the purpose in the war,
Speaker 2: but then when they came home, they couldn't stop. And
Speaker 2: so I think a lot of these Zodiac killings could
Speaker 2: have just been randomlydom people and they're trying to keep
Speaker 2: a lid on like what stofoo? That's one I mean,
Speaker 2: that's one theory.
Speaker 1: Sure no. Yeah, So with that first victim, Scherry Joe Bates,
Speaker 1: the one that was nearly decapitated, the circumstances of her
Speaker 1: murder suggested that she knew her killer and had spent
Speaker 1: a portion of the evening with him before the attack.
Speaker 1: And just like the Zodiac murders, what was said to
Speaker 1: be a confession was received in the mail following her
Speaker 1: fucking murder. But no one connects Shrry Joe Bates to
Speaker 1: the rest of the Zodiac murders. Why not. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that one in the movie where he supposedly calls
Speaker 1: from a payphone and he says.
Speaker 2: He did it.
Speaker 1: It was something similar with this one, But they don't
Speaker 1: link Sharry Joe Bates with the rest of the Zodiac murders.
Speaker 1: And they also said they said that Cherry obviously must
Speaker 1: have known her killer and Darlene the quote unquote first one.
Speaker 1: First Zodiac murder victim also knew her killer. So it's
Speaker 1: like you said, is it people that they know it?
Speaker 1: Just like fucking random fucking crazy ass dudes or or chicks,
Speaker 1: or is it someone else?
Speaker 3: Dear editor, this is the murderer of the two teenagers
Speaker 3: last Christmas at Lake Herman and the girl on the
Speaker 3: fourth of July.
Speaker 2: I want you to print this cipher on the front
Speaker 2: page of your paper.
Speaker 1: He wants his code in the afternoon edition, May Smith.
Speaker 3: Does you have like got two to finish?
Speaker 2: The Zodiac killer has come to San Francisco.
Speaker 3: Another letter, school children make nice targets.
Speaker 2: He gave himself a name, Greek horse code, astrological signs.
Speaker 2: This guy's used them all.
Speaker 1: I like killing people because man is the most dangerous
Speaker 1: animal of all.
Speaker 2: Just one do that.
Speaker 1: I like puzzles.
Speaker 2: I do them a morning. Got any hard suspects? About
Speaker 2: ninety and l or come up to around five hundred.
Speaker 2: You've got four crime scenes, not a single usable print.
Speaker 4: You can't think of this case in normal police terms.
Speaker 2: He's breaking the pattern.
Speaker 1: Then I said you were a cartoonist.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what are you doing at a gun range.
Speaker 2: I just want to help. What are you some kind
Speaker 2: of boy scout? Eagle scout, actually first class. I've been thinking.
Speaker 3: It was her evidence, Robert.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no evidence. You have him seen with
Speaker 2: the ciphers, the military boot prints, the bloody not circumstantial.
Speaker 1: Why do you need to do this because nobody else
Speaker 1: will day you made a mistake.
Speaker 3: Get it from the window, Paul, Are you okay?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: What'd you do it?
Speaker 2: Put your face out there for him to see? Hello?
Speaker 1: Who is this?
Speaker 2: Zodiac? Was my job? It's not yours. He's still out there.
Speaker 1: Dave.
Speaker 2: Killing is his compulsion.
Speaker 1: It drives him, It's in his blood.
Speaker 2: She's what squirrels the Zodiac speaking.
Speaker 1: I've begun.
Speaker 2: I can give you a left of the service station
Speaker 2: tours go around helping people in the night.
Speaker 1: I'm not the Zodiac, and if I was, I certainly
Speaker 1: wouldn't tell you.
Speaker 2: Are you sure there's nobody else in the house.
Speaker 1: Everywhere? So the beginning of the Zodiac movie starts with
Speaker 1: this Darling Farren and Michael Magoo How did I say it?
Speaker 1: Mijeau and they get in the car. It's an epic
Speaker 1: scene because she's way older than him. It almost looks
Speaker 1: like she's like maybe thirty and he's like fifteen, and
Speaker 1: she picks him up, and they're supposed to be going
Speaker 1: to this lover's lane and then the lights they see
Speaker 1: lights behind them in the car and the guy gets out.
Speaker 1: He shoots Mijau like eight times and then shoots Darlene
Speaker 1: and stabs her. I think, no, just shoots her, and
Speaker 1: fucking you're for sure that both of them are dead
Speaker 1: because like he gets back in his car in the movie,
Speaker 1: I think this is probably how it happened in real
Speaker 1: life too, based on Majoe's testimony. But he got back
Speaker 1: in his car, saw Migjeau moving around, came back, shot
Speaker 1: him some more, and shot Darlene some more, and he
Speaker 1: miraculously survived all of that. Darlene's dead as fuck. But
Speaker 1: where it gets interesting is that Darlene had told her
Speaker 1: friends that she had witnessed a murder by a man
Speaker 1: who had subsequently been following her. She wasn't specific on
Speaker 1: who the man was, but right before the Zodiac murdership
Speaker 1: broke a loose, she said she saw a murder, and
Speaker 1: in the weeks before her death, Darlene had been receiving
Speaker 1: mysterious packages from a man living in Mexico who Darlene had,
Speaker 1: for unexplained reasons married in nineteen sixty six using a
Speaker 1: fake name and then later divorced, and Michael Mageaux that
Speaker 1: night when she came to pick him up, he left
Speaker 1: his house in such a hurry that the lights and
Speaker 1: the TV were left on and the front door was
Speaker 1: left on open. So in my mind, again, I think
Speaker 1: this is unrelated to the Zodiac Killer because this is
Speaker 1: oddly specific and it's something that nobody talks about with Darlene.
Speaker 1: It definitely wasn't in the Finer movie.
Speaker 2: No surprise there, So you're saying it was a jolted
Speaker 2: X lover.
Speaker 1: Well, she said she witnessed a murder by a man,
Speaker 1: but wouldn't say who the man was, and then she
Speaker 1: starts receiving packages from her ex husband from Mexico. So
Speaker 1: I'm starting to think, like, maybe this murder she witnessed,
Speaker 1: like her ex husband murdered someone and she.
Speaker 2: Told her friend it was someone that had been.
Speaker 1: Following her, and then yeah, he had been following her.
Speaker 1: And what's also interesting is that they make it like
Speaker 1: Darlene was romantically interested in Michael Migeaux, but like I
Speaker 1: said he was He was like a teenager and she
Speaker 1: was like in her thirties.
Speaker 2: Maybe, but I.
Speaker 1: Mean, wouldn't it make more sense though? Maybe she was
Speaker 1: in like distress or something and like instead of a
Speaker 1: lover's lane situation, like he left his lights on his
Speaker 1: TV on his front door wide open. I mean, was
Speaker 1: that normal in the sixties though, to just leave with
Speaker 1: all your fucking door open and everything, or like.
Speaker 2: Well, potentially whoever the killer was could have known that
Speaker 2: those two were together went to the dude's.
Speaker 1: House, Michael Majoe's house.
Speaker 2: Looking for Michael Magoo and Darlene and then left the
Speaker 2: door open. I mean, who knows well.
Speaker 1: Majoe later told investigators that he and Darlene were followed
Speaker 1: immediately upon leaving Darlene's house, but he changed his story
Speaker 1: several times. But Joe went into hiding and shortly after
Speaker 1: the shootings, police received a call from a man claiming
Speaker 1: credit for Darlene's murder, and the call was placed from
Speaker 1: a payphone just outside the sheriff's station. That was in
Speaker 1: the movie where he calls and it's like raining and
Speaker 1: he gets on the payphone and he's like, it's me.
Speaker 1: I'm the he doesn't say Zodiac. Then he just says
Speaker 1: I killed two people off of rout nine. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that?
Speaker 2: Vaguely? It's been a while since I've seen.
Speaker 1: The movie, but we should watch it tonight.
Speaker 2: Is that your pick?
Speaker 1: I don't want to use my one pick on that though.
Speaker 1: That should just be a dual pick that we decide
Speaker 1: on together.
Speaker 2: You can't tell me what I pick on our duel pic.
Speaker 2: How do picks work?
Speaker 1: How do duel picks work?
Speaker 2: Then we had to pick it together. Yeah, and you
Speaker 2: just volunteered my movie.
Speaker 1: I volunteered it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were. If we were gonna watch it, we
Speaker 2: should have watched it before recording this.
Speaker 1: But you remember enough about it though, right? It was
Speaker 1: a long motherfucker too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I owned the movie and I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it too. I think it's really good. But
Speaker 1: you know, they they kind of mentioned in the movie
Speaker 1: that my Joe kept changing his story. But why would
Speaker 1: he have a reason to change his story unless he
Speaker 1: was hiding something, the truth about something.
Speaker 2: Well, he clearly was in fear for his life, whether.
Speaker 1: It was Darlene's crazy ex or.
Speaker 2: The Zodiac Killer. However you want to look at it,
Speaker 2: there would be a lot of reasons to walk back
Speaker 2: certain things in your testimony.
Speaker 1: Well, if we're going with or you're full of shit,
Speaker 1: he got shot like twelve times, right, But I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: if we're going with multiple assailants for the Zodiac and
Speaker 1: not just one guy, I think this was an another
Speaker 1: one that just got grouped in there, like Sherry Joe,
Speaker 1: Like they don't say the Zodiac killed her, but like
Speaker 1: that was just a random one that they let slide.
Speaker 1: So I think this Darlene fair and One could just
Speaker 1: be a random shooting because he kept changing his moo.
Speaker 1: But we'll get into that too. At the end of July,
Speaker 1: the first of what proved to be a long series
Speaker 1: of letters arrived at area newspaper offices, with a request
Speaker 1: that the letter be published on August first, the occult
Speaker 1: holiday known as Lamas your thoughts, because like I said,
Speaker 1: there's always a little bit of ritualism when they try
Speaker 1: to pull off these huge fucking psyops.
Speaker 2: Well, who's sending the letter? If we don't know, then
Speaker 2: that's the main thing. Like if there if some of
Speaker 2: our speculation is accurate and there isn't just one one
Speaker 2: killer known as the Zodiac, then yeah, this could have
Speaker 2: been a syop. And like we said previously, the people
Speaker 2: that do the syops definitely have occult rituals guiding them.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, so they love to put that shit in there.
Speaker 2: Or if it was just one guy doing all this, yeah,
Speaker 2: he could have been a cult ritualist as well.
Speaker 1: The series of letters were laced with codes that suggested
Speaker 1: that the writer had a background in naval intelligence, bringing
Speaker 1: the Office of Naval Intelligence onto the case. Other agencies
Speaker 1: that investigated the Zodiac killings included the FBI, the US
Speaker 1: Postal Service, the California Department of Justice, and four local
Speaker 1: police agencies.
Speaker 2: You know you've done fucked up when you get investigated
Speaker 2: by the US Postals. Don't fire around.
Speaker 1: They carry guns, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they'll shoot your The co host on my show, Jeremiah,
Speaker 2: he's talked extensively about.
Speaker 1: The Postal Service. They'll shoot, they will decapitate.
Speaker 2: There was one That's why they call it going postal?
Speaker 1: Was it that like a post office person that like, wait,
Speaker 1: crazy just shot a bunch of people though, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one bad apple made a whole fucking h what
Speaker 2: do you call it?
Speaker 1: Hmm? Cliche or yeah, catchphrase? But so on August fourth,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, The killer supplied his moniker in a
Speaker 1: letter that began this is the Zodiac speaking. Just days later,
Speaker 1: on the nights of August eighth and ninth, the Manson
Speaker 1: family committed two of the most notorious multiple murders in
Speaker 1: the nation's history, the Tate Lobyanca slings. The Manson killings
Speaker 1: were part of a weekend orgy of violence in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles that saw the city record twenty nine known homicides
Speaker 1: in just four days.
Speaker 2: That's like a normal weekend in fucking Chicago.
Speaker 1: Spin serious, But you see, like it's odd that they're
Speaker 1: running kind of parallel, the Zodiac killings and the Manson killings,
Speaker 1: and they started in the same year, they're around the
Speaker 1: same area. They all could be random, as I was
Speaker 1: saying before, like the one chicks X and the other
Speaker 1: chick whatever, But it just seems in August eighth and
Speaker 1: August ninth, and Zodiac wants his letter out August first,
Speaker 1: so concerning the Tate Labyanka slings. The search for the
Speaker 1: perpetrators of the h Profile murders involved the FBI, the Massade,
Speaker 1: the California Beverage Control Board, the US Treasury Department, the
Speaker 1: La County District Attorney's Office, the lap D, the LA
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office, and Colonel Paul Tait, a US Army Intelligence asset,
Speaker 1: Vietnam veteran and the father of victim Sharon Tate. And
Speaker 1: I know Colby that you have a lot to say
Speaker 1: on this, so I'm just gonna let you go.
Speaker 2: Well, I've obsessed over the Charles Manson killings for years,
Speaker 2: and just my overall scoping opinion on a lot of
Speaker 2: this stuff is pretty recent. And I will preface this
Speaker 2: by saying that I'm not human vibrations where I think
Speaker 2: every single thing that you ever hear about on the
Speaker 2: news is fake and staged. But I do think there's
Speaker 2: a lot to that when it comes to certain things.
Speaker 2: Within the last couple of years, I've been convinced that
Speaker 2: the West Memphis three killings were entirely staged. And when
Speaker 2: I first heard it, it kind of, you know, you
Speaker 2: have a visceral reaction to.
Speaker 1: That, and I thought about it.
Speaker 2: After about two minutes of talking to the guy that
Speaker 2: I was interviewing who laid that theory out for me,
Speaker 2: it all just kind of made a lot of sense,
Speaker 2: especially with some of the stuff he said and then
Speaker 2: I kind of took that line of thought as well
Speaker 2: as the Laurel Canyon formula, where you have an intelligence
Speaker 2: assets from the United States military involved and it's a parent.
Speaker 2: It's a lot like I'm not saying, a parent, like
Speaker 2: apparently like a parent like her father. Sharon Tate's father
Speaker 2: was a current Well he's a USA.
Speaker 1: Oh he's a Vietnam vet.
Speaker 2: And an intelligence asset. So a lot of the stuff
Speaker 2: that happened that night, it just seems like a spectacle
Speaker 2: like thrown out there for us.
Speaker 1: Do you think Sharon Tate is dead?
Speaker 2: I don't think either way. Of course she existed, but
Speaker 2: either way, she was either set up to be murdered
Speaker 2: in that ritualistic fashion. I mean, anybody who's looked into
Speaker 2: the Manson killings at all knows that that house in
Speaker 2: particular was targeted. But Manson himself knew that Terry Melcher
Speaker 2: didn't live there anymore, but he still said to do it.
Speaker 2: And whether Manson gave order or not, if they even
Speaker 2: really happened, I think it could be a thing that
Speaker 2: was faked. And you know, you look at like stuff
Speaker 2: like the Challenger.
Speaker 1: Exploding, oh right, all.
Speaker 2: Sorts of stuff where you see a lot of these
Speaker 2: people are still alive and so.
Speaker 1: But do you think Sharantate is still alive?
Speaker 2: If I had to guess, I would say I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be surprised either way. It to me does look like
Speaker 2: a staged event.
Speaker 1: What was my argument when you told me that the
Speaker 1: first time and I freaked out.
Speaker 2: I think you were a little too married to your
Speaker 2: research to look at it from a new angle. I
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what your argument was, but it was.
Speaker 1: Really it was lame.
Speaker 2: It was weird. No, it wasn't lame. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is a lot for anybody to hear.
Speaker 1: Who because I think, like the West Memphis three, I
Speaker 1: fought you harder on than the Sharantate. I think I
Speaker 1: gave in on the Sharon Tate before the West Memphis
Speaker 1: three because I do think that those little boys are dead.
Speaker 2: Well, if you watch the Paradise Lost trilogy on HBO,
Speaker 2: that to me is a blueprint of a staged event.
Speaker 2: Come to fruition to like, jam it down our throats.
Speaker 2: Here's what happened. The Satanic Panic was a thing that
Speaker 2: was sensationalized, and then the reaction to the Satanic Panic,
Speaker 2: and then you have all these celebrities cozying up with
Speaker 2: fucking god, what's his name, Damien.
Speaker 1: Eccles, and he they are close with him.
Speaker 2: I mean there was like Eddie Vedder doing songs with
Speaker 2: him while he was still in prison, and Johnny Depp
Speaker 2: getting matching tattoos. Yeah, and I've heard him go on
Speaker 2: Duncan Trussel's podcast and all these guys want to suck
Speaker 2: his dick now, regardless of whether you think he was
Speaker 2: innocent or not, he take it a step further. It's like,
Speaker 2: did this shit even happen? Because if you watched the
Speaker 2: first movie in that trilogy, Damian Eccles looks guilty as fuck,
Speaker 2: and the HBO producers are trying to show you that
Speaker 2: they didn't do it, and then they have like the
Speaker 2: retarded one who ended up spilling the beans, and then
Speaker 2: they eventually took the Alfred plea where they said, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're pleading guilty even though tongue in cheek, we didn't
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, And I mean it's just one big spectacle,
Speaker 2: kind of like the Sharon Tate murders, where you had
Speaker 2: this rising starlet married to one of the most occultic
Speaker 2: fucking filmmakers aside from Kenneth Anger, and it's so weird
Speaker 2: when you look at Rosemary's Baby and the parallels with
Speaker 2: I know, and I mean and if you want to
Speaker 2: go even further into what was going on at that
Speaker 2: house with a lot of fucking people who are practicing
Speaker 2: witchcraft and what I mean, this was not random, whether
Speaker 2: it was planned, whether it was staged. It was definitely
Speaker 2: set out by something.
Speaker 1: So but you do think it's theatrical though, Like what.
Speaker 2: About whether it's they're dead or not, and whether the
Speaker 2: murders really happened. Yeah, you could take an event and
Speaker 2: then sensationalize it to get the most out of it
Speaker 2: that you can, or you could have just planned the
Speaker 2: motherfucker from the beginning.
Speaker 1: So but what about the Lobbyanka murders?
Speaker 2: See that one. I don't think that would have been
Speaker 2: famous at all if Sharon Tate and the and the
Speaker 2: crew there with like.
Speaker 1: So, if you do think the Lobyanka's happened and it
Speaker 1: was part of this, well.
Speaker 2: Like I said, the only reason we even know about
Speaker 2: the Labyanca slains is because the murders that happened.
Speaker 1: So the Tates was to like usher in the terror
Speaker 1: of the Lobyankas.
Speaker 2: No I just think that whether the Labyanka Slains were
Speaker 2: Mansoner or not, that Yeah, it's just like a footnote.
Speaker 2: It's like an asterisk on the on the Tate killings, because,
Speaker 2: like I said, if the Tate killing hadn't happened, we
Speaker 2: would never hear.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, if you look at it for like
Speaker 1: a lot of people want to put this on Manson
Speaker 1: so bad because it like it's like once upon a
Speaker 1: time in Hollywood, Like it makes a great story and
Speaker 1: it's very it's like a very well written screenplay.
Speaker 2: Well, and if you just take Charles Manson himself, you
Speaker 2: have a guy who's been in and out of the system.
Speaker 2: He's associated with multiple gangs. Yeah, he's he's constantly being
Speaker 2: released after being pulled over for and like with underage
Speaker 2: girls and fucking bust full of drugs. This guy could
Speaker 2: not stay out of the fucking like shit that was
Speaker 2: going on, even though there's no way he should have
Speaker 2: been where he was unless he was put there. And
Speaker 2: so then you take it a step further and yeah,
Speaker 2: like did any of the shit that they tied to
Speaker 2: Manson have anything to do with Manson? Did it?
Speaker 1: Though? Because if you were to tell me that a
Speaker 1: someone like Sharon Tate was married to an occultist filmmaker
Speaker 1: like Roman Polanski and then you watch Rosemary's Baby and
Speaker 1: then you see what happens to her. I'd be more
Speaker 1: likely to think he had fucking something to do with
Speaker 1: it than Manson.
Speaker 2: Well, if you've ever read Chaos, it talks about a
Speaker 2: fuck I think it was like a film reel that
Speaker 2: Roman Polansky had in his possession, and it was like
Speaker 2: his fucking occultist buddies running a train on Sharon Tates.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. The best thing about Chaos is he
Speaker 2: discredits Bugliosi and all his bullshit that he put into
Speaker 2: his book Helter Skelter. This is this guy that prosecuted
Speaker 2: Manson and he wanted like rock star fame, and this
Speaker 2: guy was a fucking hack. So the whole race war
Speaker 2: theory and all of that stuff was bullshit from the
Speaker 2: get go. So to me, Manson probably had blood on
Speaker 2: his hands in one way or another, But he also
Speaker 2: was a trained asset who was running mk ultra programming
Speaker 2: on the family. He was using methmphetamine LSD sleep deprivation
Speaker 2: to brainwash these fuckers. Did they even know if they
Speaker 2: were there that night? Were they themselves assets. I mean
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff. If you look into Tex Watson,
Speaker 2: like his whole fucking story is just.
Speaker 1: All over the place. It's all over there.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I just say, like, you can't throw the
Speaker 2: baby out with the bathwater when it comes to these
Speaker 2: kind of things, because the spider web can go in
Speaker 2: so many directions on this. And so after all the
Speaker 2: research I've done into the Manson killings, it's like to
Speaker 2: even have like a concrete theory, it's just.
Speaker 1: Kind of, you know, like you almost can't have one.
Speaker 2: You can if you want to, and there are people
Speaker 2: that do, but man, the more I've read into it,
Speaker 2: the more or it just seems to me like there
Speaker 2: is a lot to this that we'll never know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm pretty sure like that was one of
Speaker 1: our first arguments.
Speaker 4: It was our first fighting except cure. We're fighting about
Speaker 4: serial killers, Charles Manson, satanic slayings of kids in the woods,
Speaker 4: when most people are fighting about who's going to take
Speaker 4: out the trash.
Speaker 1: I was actually I was compelled by your argument, which
Speaker 1: is why I know, like when you hear something and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh damn, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: It just and it's just it's just one theory, Like
Speaker 2: I said, I know.
Speaker 1: But it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: And then you know, a lot of theories do make
Speaker 2: a lot of sense. Some of them don't make any sense,
Speaker 2: and they could be the real ones. You don't fucking know.
Speaker 2: Like you can't be married to any of this shit.
Speaker 2: You can do your best to stream together extensive research
Speaker 2: and look into everything. Anybody prominent who's like lived like
Speaker 2: Tom O'Neill twenty years writing one fucking book, or just
Speaker 2: a lot of podcasters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, podcasters always have like we always have something
Speaker 1: to say, whether or not people. I think people should
Speaker 1: really do their own research into a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff before they just like, especially if they're Netflix documentary
Speaker 1: HBO documentary watchers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a lot of your listeners and
Speaker 2: especially listeners to these series that you're doing for the
Speaker 2: boys at the Coult, then you will inevitably be compelled
Speaker 2: to do your own research. If you've set through pediphocracy,
Speaker 2: Uncle Sam wants your kids programmed to kill And if
Speaker 2: you made it this far, I'm assuming you've also looked
Speaker 2: into it on your own. And if you haven't, we
Speaker 2: probably you probably should.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably should if they've made it this far.
Speaker 1: Their troopers though we let you, yes, But actually I
Speaker 1: have a fun fact for you. Roman Polanski actually brought
Speaker 1: in to assist in his own investigation of the killings
Speaker 1: this fucking famous psychic, fucking guy named Peter Herkos. And
Speaker 1: Peter Herkos had earlier made a high profile appearance alongside
Speaker 1: of f Lee Bailey in the Boston strangler case.
Speaker 2: So I actually, is that how Polanski knew who he
Speaker 2: was or really like Buds?
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I'm why I think it's interesting is
Speaker 1: is this more theater shit? Because I think the Boston
Speaker 1: stranglers are also fucking Cia, right, So if this Herkos
Speaker 1: guy was involved in the Boston strangler case, and then
Speaker 1: Roman Polansky somehow knows him and gets him involved in
Speaker 1: the Tait case, then I feel, like I said earlier,
Speaker 1: and like what you were alluding to, that this is
Speaker 1: a great piece of fiction.
Speaker 2: Well, and not to mention that even in the instance
Speaker 2: that Polanski wasn't involved in the theater behind it, he
Speaker 2: had a lot of fucking reason to make people think
Speaker 2: that he was very you know, just grief stricken and
Speaker 2: trying to solve this on his own. When in fact,
Speaker 2: he just lucked out that he wasn't there if this
Speaker 2: shit really happened.
Speaker 1: Or did he have something to do with it, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people think he did well, his friends well.
Speaker 2: And also you brought up like a lot of these
Speaker 2: are like set up hits with drug shit, and there
Speaker 2: is a lot of evidence that there was stuff going
Speaker 2: on at these parties that Tate's crew with like j. C.
Speaker 2: Bring and a couple other people that were there, Mama
Speaker 2: Cass and oh yeah, and the Folgers Heiress. Like a
Speaker 2: lot of these people were notorious junkies who were hanging
Speaker 2: out with devil worshipers and they like had this weird crossing.
Speaker 1: And making movies and shit.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there was like drug debts, they were unpaid
Speaker 2: and you know, then you have the FBI probably sitting
Speaker 2: right outside this if it really did happen, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who have talked about that.
Speaker 2: I think Sam's brought them up on his show. But so.
Speaker 1: This circle of people that he was hanging out with
Speaker 1: also is just really it says a lot because at
Speaker 1: the time of the Manson murders, this Peter her Coast
Speaker 1: guy was involved in organizing a black Arts festival scheduled
Speaker 1: for Halloween Day nineteen sixty nine, and the events other
Speaker 1: organizers were Timothy Leary and Anton Levy, who were scheduled
Speaker 1: to host the festival before it was canceled.
Speaker 2: So two other assets, that's what.
Speaker 1: But they're they're all so and Polanski somehow knows this
Speaker 1: Peter Herkos guy who's a psychic medium who hosts black
Speaker 1: arts festivals with Antson Levey and fucking he gets called
Speaker 1: in to the Tate fucking like. This is why I
Speaker 1: think it's such a theatrical like fucking like, but it's
Speaker 1: all Manson, Like you know what I mean, It can't
Speaker 1: just be Manson.
Speaker 2: Or was it at all?
Speaker 1: Or was it at all?
Speaker 2: I mean to me, Manson was used up and whether
Speaker 2: he had anything to do with what happened that night,
Speaker 2: It's like, we can throw this guy under the bus now.
Speaker 2: And he also during many prison interviews and letters with
Speaker 2: people and he was incarcerated the final time, he mentioned
Speaker 2: that like if you even knew as deep as this
Speaker 2: goes and I and he would always allude to it,
Speaker 2: but at the end he'd say he would never rat
Speaker 2: anybody out, but he.
Speaker 1: Would say like like if you knew like I'm not
Speaker 1: the monster, like he would say stuff like that.
Speaker 2: I mean he said a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: He said a lot of cracked out shit, Like.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of his stuff was probably part
Speaker 2: of the show. But after you're fucking rotten in a
Speaker 2: cage for decades on end, you might start spitting a
Speaker 2: little truth and trying to like give a little bit
Speaker 2: of breadcrumbs to the people who really.
Speaker 1: Want to look into it, Like weave in truths with
Speaker 1: lies and shit.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that in the beginning the whole trial spectacle,
Speaker 2: it was like a script.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Manson family with their frick their fucking their
Speaker 1: swastikas and ship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, did he even know where he was
Speaker 2: going at that point? Like he could have thought like, hey,
Speaker 2: maybe I play along with this play this staged performance,
Speaker 2: and then I get extracted at the end, and maybe
Speaker 2: he did, and they put in a fucking body double
Speaker 2: or some fucking like if you want to start getting
Speaker 2: into like that, there's a lot lot of these people
Speaker 2: like Diddy right now, his fucking mugshot is a different
Speaker 2: guy one gne Maxwell. All we saw of her in
Speaker 2: the courtroom was a fucking sketch, a sketch so they
Speaker 2: could just like have let the real Charles go.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Well, they found a pretty decent lookalike
Speaker 1: for once upon a time in Hollywood. It's not like
Speaker 1: it's hard to fucking find a fucking white guy with
Speaker 1: crazy face.
Speaker 2: And you could get anybody like short and easily to
Speaker 2: look like Charles.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It's not like he's very distinguishable
Speaker 1: in any way. But so the month after the Tatelabyanca
Speaker 1: killings and just after the autumnal equinox, the Zodiac was
Speaker 1: apparently back to work as a man and woman were
Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times in a San Francisco area park. Is
Speaker 1: this curious timing? And again I put that in my
Speaker 1: notes because I feel like a lot of these murders
Speaker 1: are running parallel in and around the same area. And
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that there's usually a survivor with the
Speaker 1: Zodiac murders, which is interesting to me because in the
Speaker 1: UH first one that they pin on him with Michael Majo,
Speaker 1: he survived. And in this one with the UH San
Speaker 1: Francisco area park, he stabbed a man and a woman
Speaker 1: and the man survived.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for such a fucking badass killer, he kind of
Speaker 2: sucks at finishing the job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you would. He's like the least badass of
Speaker 1: all serial killers. Like he's leaving fucking people alive.
Speaker 2: Remember in Mickey and Mallory knock saga from Nashalbaring Killers,
Speaker 2: they always leave one person in line to tell the
Speaker 2: tell you.
Speaker 1: Think that's what it is, though, I mean.
Speaker 2: Because part of the mythology of it. At least you know.
Speaker 1: What's crazy that you just said that, because I put
Speaker 1: it in my notes that despite the fact that it
Speaker 1: took nearly an hour for the ambulance to respond to
Speaker 1: a call, as this dude in this chick, we're fucking
Speaker 1: bleeding to death, and the man fucking survives in what
Speaker 1: has to be the only known case of a serial
Speaker 1: killer showing up for work dressed in a logo bearing costume.
Speaker 1: This motherfucker with eighteen stab wounds somehow survives to tell
Speaker 1: the tale, and he gives the only description that we
Speaker 1: have of the Zodiac in his costume.
Speaker 2: It was a fat, tall white guy.
Speaker 1: Well, he was wearing a fucking hood and a fucking
Speaker 1: apron with the zodiac symbol on it.
Speaker 2: My ass.
Speaker 1: And and so if this is the same person why
Speaker 1: did he shoot the first couple and then stabbed to
Speaker 1: death the second couple? He changes his mo and now
Speaker 1: he's acquired a costume, and they did find a military
Speaker 1: issue boot print that was connected to like the US
Speaker 1: naval bases on the West coast, and he made another
Speaker 1: call that was out, this was me. I did it
Speaker 1: after that one.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if you want to go out on
Speaker 2: a limb here with some of this psychology stuff that
Speaker 2: whether the intelligence agencies or whoever the fuck is putting
Speaker 2: this shit all together, if they know that there's a
Speaker 2: bunch of fucked up people in California, you start one
Speaker 2: killing and you're going to get a bunch of fucked
Speaker 2: up people from the Vietnam War. Maybe start doing copycat killings.
Speaker 2: And I've always wondered about with the Zodiac, I think
Speaker 2: that was even a theory that one of the cops
Speaker 2: in the movie floated out, was like, this isn't the
Speaker 2: same guy. There's a lot of copycats. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's that movie, but I have seen a show
Speaker 2: where that was theorized, and I think there could be
Speaker 2: something to that, where you have a bunch of unhinged
Speaker 2: maniacs who just have fucking lust for blood. And then
Speaker 2: they see this is like a fucking role playing game.
Speaker 2: I can get on. I can even wear a costume.
Speaker 1: Right, But don't you think it's odd though that the
Speaker 1: first couple was shot and then the second couple was
Speaker 1: knifed and the dude always survives, and like, you've showed
Speaker 1: up in a costume, I mean second time.
Speaker 2: It's a formula for sure, any but he changed up. No,
Speaker 2: but I'm saying, like just the whole thing with leaving
Speaker 2: a survivor. Oh yeah, and like it's a couple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part was the same. But then they threw
Speaker 1: all those random like the one guy was a taxi
Speaker 1: driver that got shot and then at some point he
Speaker 1: said he was going to blow up a bus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was always.
Speaker 1: Weird, you know. It's like so it was actually on
Speaker 1: October eleventh, nineteen sixty nine, one day shy of the
Speaker 1: birthday of Alistair Crowley. The taxi driver was shot once
Speaker 1: in the head, but he apparently changed the kind of
Speaker 1: gun he used and at for San Francisco area crime scenes.
Speaker 1: The Zodiac quote unquote had used a different weapon at
Speaker 1: each crime scene, which is something that they do in
Speaker 1: the Uh, the training programs is they tell you to
Speaker 1: do a clean shot to the head. I wish you
Speaker 1: would have listened to Program to Kill Part five. Well,
Speaker 1: I know it's too bad it was released out of order, but.
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at the the manuals for hits
Speaker 2: when you're talking about these intelligence.
Speaker 1: Agencies, opportunities or weapons of opportunity and a clean shot.
Speaker 2: To the head, and usually it's a twenty two or
Speaker 2: because you get the bounce around. Yeah and so yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys would be military people. So
Speaker 2: the fact that they might have had like a bunch
Speaker 2: of weapons to choose from could be a thing.
Speaker 1: M h.
Speaker 2: So I'm not singing that that to me exactly makes
Speaker 2: it seem like it's not the same person, just because
Speaker 2: you know who was this guy? Was he ex military,
Speaker 2: he's got military boots. Yeah, he could have like a
Speaker 2: fucking arsenal in his house.
Speaker 1: But you know who I had suggested was the Zodiac killer?
Speaker 1: If it was one guy? Right?
Speaker 2: Yes, who Michael?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I did put a few notes in here,
Speaker 1: and we'll see if I can convince you.
Speaker 2: Oh, I've always thought that that guy was capable of anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, so the taxi driver, the so called Zodiac Killer.
Speaker 1: He picked him up on Mason Street and then drove
Speaker 1: him to an address in the Presidio Heights area of
Speaker 1: the city where he shot him once in the head
Speaker 1: Cia style. And there were these kids and this is
Speaker 1: also in the movie that witnessed the murder of the
Speaker 1: taxi driver and they called the police with a description
Speaker 1: of the Zodiac Killer, but for unexplained reasons, the police
Speaker 1: dispatcher broadcast a description of a black perpetrator. He was
Speaker 1: black and had a huge afro, allowing the real shooter
Speaker 1: to evade a massive police response. So not only is
Speaker 1: he being protected by the police in this situation, he
Speaker 1: gets this guy dropped off, or he takes this guy
Speaker 1: to the Presidio Heights area and they're finding military fucking
Speaker 1: bootprints set these crime scenes. And I'm just saying, does
Speaker 1: that not sound like fucking Mike Lukino.
Speaker 2: I mean it could. It also makes me think of
Speaker 2: that scene in The Cable Guy where Jim Carrey fucks
Speaker 2: up somebody. I think it's Owen Wilson actually that the
Speaker 2: girls on a date with he fucks them up in
Speaker 2: the bathroom, and then the sketch rendering is like a
Speaker 2: black guy.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what they do usually. Though he
Speaker 1: was black, I swear, Hey, you know what who else
Speaker 1: they did that with Salmonio. Yeah, he was fucking stabbed
Speaker 1: in an alley and they said that it was a
Speaker 1: black guy.
Speaker 2: Everybody looks black that night.
Speaker 1: No, they literally, Okay, I was gonna say, they literally
Speaker 1: blamed it on a black guy.
Speaker 2: But it was like, honey, they're always blaming black guys.
Speaker 1: They're always blaming black guys. But you know this to me,
Speaker 1: like the kids literally said to the police, there is
Speaker 1: a he looks like this, he just shot this taxi
Speaker 1: driver outside of our house. And the police dispatcher goes,
Speaker 1: there's a black male, Like, I mean, that's just a classic,
Speaker 1: like literally to throw them off so they wouldn't be
Speaker 1: looking for Michael Achino. Well, remember in uh they probably
Speaker 1: said he looks like fucking Mickey Mouse with his fucking
Speaker 1: haircut and a pumpkin pie haircut and fucking freak out.
Speaker 2: Here there's a nigram mouse on the.
Speaker 1: You know that fucking hairstyle that Michael Achino had with
Speaker 1: the fucking he did that to like look like Mickey Mouse.
Speaker 2: Well, I know that Sean McCann says that, and I
Speaker 2: feel like I've seen it somewhere else, but it might
Speaker 2: have been him that I heard it from. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I have heard that. Sean McKennon says that, But the
Speaker 2: fucking pointed eyebrows and shit too.
Speaker 1: That to me looks like the Devil.
Speaker 2: But I mean, it's very cartoonish. But so.
Speaker 1: It was two days after the taxi driver that a
Speaker 1: new letter from the Zodiac claimed credit for the killing
Speaker 1: and threatened a attack on a school bus by blowing it.
Speaker 2: Up, which just doesn't fit.
Speaker 1: It doesn't fit it at all. No, and that's why
Speaker 1: there are theories that Ted Kazinski was the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 2: I've heard that too.
Speaker 1: I don't think that fits at all.
Speaker 2: No, he's Terrence McKenna.
Speaker 1: Now some people might remember this from the movie, but
Speaker 1: I think that it's really interesting because October twenty second,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, somebody identifying himself as the Zodiac called
Speaker 1: and requested to speak to either F. E. F Lee
Speaker 1: Bailey or San Francisco attorney Melvin Belli, And in a
Speaker 1: fucking theatrical turn of events, the man calling himself Sam
Speaker 1: ended up having a live chat on the air the
Speaker 1: ci A linked BELLI. Eight years later we would have
Speaker 1: The Son of Sam, which also was CIA. So I
Speaker 1: think this is interesting if you're calling to say, like,
Speaker 1: you're the Zodiac, but my name is Sam, and I
Speaker 1: don't know what are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2: Well, if you look into Marie what was his last name, Terry,
Speaker 2: his his work and it is one of the best documentaries.
Speaker 1: I've seen on the Ultimate Evil, Well.
Speaker 2: It wasn't even called That's that's the name of his book.
Speaker 2: It was like, I don't know, I remember what they've
Speaker 2: they changed the name for the Netflix series, But that
Speaker 2: is actually one of the things that made David McGowan
Speaker 2: want to write Program to Kill It was Mary Terry's work.
Speaker 2: So you get him going out on a limb really,
Speaker 2: but he did have some evidence to back it up
Speaker 2: that Sam through the processed church Let's connected to the
Speaker 2: Manson family. So if you're talking about the same era
Speaker 2: with the Zodiac stuff, I mean, I don't think with
Speaker 2: a lot of the groundwork that's been laid out by
Speaker 2: a lot of other researchers, that's too far of a leap.
Speaker 2: And I mean, funk, what's his name, David Burkowitz. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So with David Berkowitz, I mean, the Son of Sam
Speaker 2: that was his neighbor and it was like the Suns
Speaker 2: and that's where like the Talking dog and all that
Speaker 2: stuff came into it. So yeah, I mean, who knows
Speaker 2: it could be something.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just to me proves again that this
Speaker 1: was all theater, even having this so called Zodiac guy
Speaker 1: and like, you remember the other night when you played
Speaker 1: something and I was like, is that the Art Bell
Speaker 1: Show because it was so sensationalized a guy calling in about.
Speaker 2: The Yeah, it was the closing track on Tool.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, And I was like, oh, is that from
Speaker 1: the Art Bell Show? Because that was so popular and
Speaker 1: they're coming for us, they've been here all along. And
Speaker 1: then they have something like this with the Zodiac Killer
Speaker 1: where he's like calling in and you can hear him
Speaker 1: live and like, you know, all the atrocities that's been
Speaker 1: credited to him, and he's having a fucking friendly chat
Speaker 1: with like this this CIA linked fucking guy, And it
Speaker 1: just to me is like another aspect of the theatrics
Speaker 1: of it all, especially if it was multiple assailants and
Speaker 1: not just one guy. Like I don't know, no, I agree,
Speaker 1: it just seems so theatrical so Also in November nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine, these two fucking Scientologist motherfuckers were found savagely
Speaker 1: murdered on the streets of Los Angeles. Each of them
Speaker 1: had been stabbed more than fifty fucking times. One of
Speaker 1: the victims had dated Manson disciples Bruce Davis in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty eight, just before Charlie had sent Davis to London
Speaker 1: to visit both the headquarters of the Processed Church and
Speaker 1: the local Scientology school, and Bruce Davis was later convicted
Speaker 1: of other unrelated murder charges, and he has been identified
Speaker 1: by some researchers as a possible suspect in the Zodiac
Speaker 1: killings as well.
Speaker 2: Your thoughts, well, I just it's funny that these other
Speaker 2: murder charges were unrelated when they're all pretty fucking unrelated.
Speaker 1: But like they get away with certain things, like these
Speaker 1: two scientologists are found stabbed fifty fucking times a piece.
Speaker 2: I mean, there is a risk to join the Church
Speaker 2: of Scientology.
Speaker 1: That's a good one.
Speaker 2: I mean think about that though, Like a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that goes on in Hollywood is so intricately
Speaker 2: linked with the Church of Scientology, and a lot of
Speaker 2: people do know that but it goes way back, and
Speaker 2: I mean if no one out there, if you're if
Speaker 2: you are interested in the scientology stuff. The movie The
Speaker 2: Master that Paul Thomas Anderson made where Philip Seymour Hoffman
Speaker 2: plays the like l Ron Hubbard esque character.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I mean it just it kind of just shows you,
Speaker 2: like the web that was weaved. And as Sam Tripley
Speaker 2: always says, like the Church of Scientology very well could
Speaker 2: have been like a naval intelligence operation. It's got many
Speaker 2: markings for that. Well.
Speaker 1: I covered it a little bit on Program to Kill
Speaker 1: Part six when I did like the history of a
Speaker 1: lot of these things in like occult groups, and the
Speaker 1: basis of scientology is Alster Crowley.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Hubbard was running around with those guys Parsons.
Speaker 2: What's the Nazis' name that started NASA Werner.
Speaker 1: Von Bron Warner von Bron.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean the Church of Scientology. It's so
Speaker 2: weird because it's so secretive. Until South Park made their episodes,
Speaker 2: often I didn't see it.
Speaker 1: Well, l is it good? Is it honest and truthful?
Speaker 2: Well, it just repeats that Tom Cruise is trapped in.
Speaker 1: A closet over and over, But so they did consider
Speaker 1: this this Manson disciple fucking Zodiac suspect. And so again
Speaker 1: we kind of see like the Manson killings in the
Speaker 1: Manson family, I mean, alongside Zodiac in certain regards.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and it's just like you pointed out earlier
Speaker 2: the dates m h. It's almost like you have a
Speaker 2: Psya up in La and Asia op in the Bay
Speaker 2: Area and they are in tandem.
Speaker 1: And so with that, do you kind of think do
Speaker 1: you kind of see like like if Zodiac was multiple assailants,
Speaker 1: like one guy was the knife guy, one guy was
Speaker 1: like the gun guy, one guy was like the bomb guy.
Speaker 1: Does that sound stupid?
Speaker 2: I mean not necessarily, Like if you.
Speaker 1: Were going to kill someone, if they were like, hey
Speaker 1: we got a couple of people. We want you to
Speaker 1: go stab them up or like go kill them and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, well I'll knife them.
Speaker 2: Well, like we were talking about earlier, it's weapons of opportunity.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's not always going to be the same.
Speaker 1: Like one guy was real theatrical. He was like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna knife them and I'm gonna wear a costume.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, he probably had his own theme song.
Speaker 1: I wonder how that went. So there was this guy,
Speaker 1: his name was Stanley Baker, and he murdered this person.
Speaker 1: And when they arrested him, he said, I have a problem.
Speaker 1: I'm a cannibal. And he fucking pulled this fucking nod
Speaker 1: off human finger out of his fucking pocket, and he
Speaker 1: literally confessed his involvement in a number of other murders
Speaker 1: that he claimed he committed as a member of the
Speaker 1: process spawned for pie cult. Have you heard of it?
Speaker 2: I think from mm.
Speaker 1: Hmm, And I also mentioned it in the last episode
Speaker 1: of Program to Kill, and police were able to confirm
Speaker 1: his complicity in a particularly brutal mutilation murder in San
Speaker 1: Francisco thanks to his having left behind a bloody fingerprint,
Speaker 1: but somehow California courts still declined to prosecute Baker for
Speaker 1: the homicide, with the ridiculous claim that he had been
Speaker 1: denied a speedy trial, despite his confessed involvement in a
Speaker 1: number of murders, and despite the fact that the murder
Speaker 1: for which he was convicted involved him ripping out the
Speaker 1: man's heart and fucking eating it. And Baker was released
Speaker 1: from prison after just fourteen years, and according to recent reports,
Speaker 1: he remains at large today and during his incarceration, he
Speaker 1: started his own satanic cult and had eleven weapons confiscated
Speaker 1: from him.
Speaker 2: By guards, all at the same time.
Speaker 1: They were all in his ass.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's weird that it seems very Henry
Speaker 2: le Lucas, But.
Speaker 1: That's probably why I put that in my notes, because
Speaker 1: it seems as though some people, especially when they end
Speaker 1: up being cannibals and shit like Henry Lee Lucas in
Speaker 1: Otice Tool, they get protected from on high. He didn't
Speaker 1: have a speedy trial, so he gets off the hook.
Speaker 1: He ripped a man's heart out.
Speaker 2: A good reason, wasn't speedy enough or like.
Speaker 1: So they find his bloody fingerprints. They're able to connect
Speaker 1: him to multiple burders and his own confession, and then
Speaker 1: he confesses and he rips a man's heart out, and
Speaker 1: he has a fucking person's not off finger in his pocket,
Speaker 1: and he gets fourteen years and fucking that's it. That's
Speaker 1: all she wrote. He says he's part.
Speaker 2: Of Colts too, and then started his own.
Speaker 1: And then started his own cult and somehow has weapons
Speaker 1: in jail.
Speaker 2: I mean, if they found eleven, imagine how many of
Speaker 2: they didn't find.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just saying like, that's pretty fucked up, and
Speaker 1: they're usually connected when they're protected from on high like that,
Speaker 1: of course. But so in the late nineteen sixties and
Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies, not only did Stanley Baker, who's ripping
Speaker 1: people's hearts out and chewing their fucking fingers off, and
Speaker 1: Charlie Manson migrate away from San Francisco, many other disenchanted
Speaker 1: hippies and flower children did as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so to me, you get northern California is like
Speaker 2: the mecca. It's like the birthplace of the serial killer movement.
Speaker 2: And how can that be coincidental? You have many many
Speaker 2: you have many military intelligence operations going on there, you know,
Speaker 2: including like the acid movement, and it's also where a
Speaker 2: lot of these fuckers came from, and Michael Lokino as well.
Speaker 1: Mmmmm, that's where I mean, California should just fall off
Speaker 1: the fucking map at this point.
Speaker 2: It's cozy, learn just swim.
Speaker 1: Like I feel like you go there and you just
Speaker 1: die Laurel Canyon death.
Speaker 2: Well, we're only fourteen miles above there.
Speaker 1: You think if we go visit, we'll get taped Bobby
Speaker 1: on Good, No, we're not famous enough.
Speaker 2: You'll probably be it.
Speaker 1: We'll be one of those nameless.
Speaker 2: Spaces like the Stanley Hotel.
Speaker 1: Do you want to be the male Black Dahlia?
Speaker 2: Only if I can survive to tell the tale.
Speaker 1: Now with your fucking dick cut off and your fucking.
Speaker 2: The medical industry is very it's the advancements are amazing.
Speaker 1: They can put your body back together if it's like
Speaker 1: hacked in in many pieces.
Speaker 2: I could just be like a torso and a wheelchair.
Speaker 1: You'll have a colostomy back.
Speaker 2: I always wanted one.
Speaker 1: I'm not changing it. We'll have to get home nurse.
Speaker 1: Most of these motherfuckers ended up in Santa Cruz.
Speaker 2: Let's where the last boys to place is. It didn't
Speaker 2: got the name of that vampire movie?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Santa Cruz. Okay, well that makes sense.
Speaker 2: It's the vampire.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of them began to operate small
Speaker 1: portable pill factories in the remote parts of the forest,
Speaker 1: turning out LSD and amphetamines for the city market, free
Speaker 1: of police harassment.
Speaker 2: Well, puck, yeah, it was keeping those guys in work.
Speaker 1: M HM. Also, seemingly random, motiveless killings quickly began to
Speaker 1: plague Santa Cruz, and on October nineteenth, nineteen seventy, in
Speaker 1: a case closely mirroring the slaughter at the Tate House
Speaker 1: the year before, John Lindley Frasier allegedly acts alone killed
Speaker 1: all the occupants of a home in Santa Cruz, including
Speaker 1: a prominent doctor, his wife, secretary, and two children. Frasier,
Speaker 1: who was known to have a strong interest in the occult,
Speaker 1: was said to have started his own lifestyle as an
Speaker 1: aquarian age hermit living in a six foot square shack
Speaker 1: in the woods, a lifestyle later adopted by Fucking Ted Kaczinski.
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski, by the way, was a subject of mk
Speaker 1: Ultra experiments while he was a young student at Harvard
Speaker 1: and had been named by some researchers, as we were
Speaker 1: saying earlier, as a suspect in the Zodiac killings, although
Speaker 1: I disagree. I don't think he fits Zodiac, but he
Speaker 1: was MK ultra as a motherfucker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of people kind of cross the
Speaker 2: stories there because he was I think sixteen when he
Speaker 2: went to Harvard, so he was like sixteen or seventeen
Speaker 2: when he got into the mk lter experiments. His didn't
Speaker 2: have anything to do with LSD. They actually just had
Speaker 2: him like right, out like humiliating fears.
Speaker 1: He had, and then damn and then they.
Speaker 2: Just like chastised him until he broke and we all
Speaker 2: know where that led.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he looked like a crazy motherfucker there at the
Speaker 1: end too. He just died recently. He died this year,
Speaker 1: didn't he.
Speaker 2: I think it was a couple of years, or like
Speaker 2: last year.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was last year, but so curiously, just over
Speaker 1: a week after the Fraser killings, a Halloween card was
Speaker 1: received from the Zodiac, and more cards and letters followed,
Speaker 1: the last of which arrived in nineteen seventy four. The
Speaker 1: murders were never solved, though many believe that Manson and
Speaker 1: the Zodiac killer were connected, which I definitely think they were,
Speaker 1: But no one ever puts those two things together, because,
Speaker 1: like I said before, they've been brainwashed by fucking Netflix
Speaker 1: and fucking HBO documentaries, and they never fucking put the
Speaker 1: pieces together that those two things could either be connected
Speaker 1: or be ran by the same people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and fucking soon after Frasier's rampage, women began going
Speaker 1: missing from around the Santa Cruz area. As early as
Speaker 1: autumn of nineteen sixty eight, reports began surfacing of grizzly
Speaker 1: occult sacrifices being performed in the surrounding mountains, and by
Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen seventy two, it was clear that
Speaker 1: Santa Cruz had a fucking problem. Mutilated bodies began showing
Speaker 1: up in the hills. By the time nine teen seventy three,
Speaker 1: world around, the bodies were piling up at an alarming rate.
Speaker 1: In just the first six weeks of the year, eight
Speaker 1: bodies were found, and women were continuing to disappear. Santa
Speaker 1: Cruz had achieved the distinction of having the highest homicide
Speaker 1: rate in the country. Many of the area's killings were
Speaker 1: credited to two alleged serial killers, Edmund Kemper and Herb Mullen,
Speaker 1: who were said to be operating at the same time
Speaker 1: in the same city, though acting completely independently of each other.
Speaker 2: They were like the cocin Pepsi of serial murder.
Speaker 1: Do you know much about these two?
Speaker 2: Uh? In passing? Neither one of them might really dove
Speaker 2: headfirst into.
Speaker 1: They're definitely, like you said, like Henry Lee and Otis,
Speaker 1: but like if they never teamed up, like they were
Speaker 1: very similar and honestly, they have a really high body
Speaker 1: count for a lot of people, you know when you
Speaker 1: say serial killer, Like, what are the names people think of?
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Like those are
Speaker 1: the biggies, Those are who people recognize. But these two
Speaker 1: assholes Edmund Kemper and fucking bitch Tit fucking this Herb Mullin,
Speaker 1: like they have huge body counts and for some reason
Speaker 1: they are not sensationalized in the same way as a
Speaker 1: lot of other serial killers are, which is interesting to me.
Speaker 1: But Kemper's bloody odyssey reportedly included eight victims brutally butchered
Speaker 1: between May nineteen seventy two and April nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: most of them co eds whose corpses were cannibalized and
Speaker 1: sexually violated. So there is another.
Speaker 2: I like to eat.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 5: Fucked the pieces, babe, Oh my god, how do you
Speaker 5: cannibalize them and then sexually violate them anyways, unless.
Speaker 2: You like they're getting wined and dined, babe.
Speaker 1: You're just as twisted it fucked up as I am.
Speaker 2: More so so.
Speaker 1: This asshole. Fucking Mullen was credited with dispatching thirteen victims
Speaker 1: in just four months from October thirteenth nineteen seventy two
Speaker 1: through February thirteenth, nineteen seventy three, Mullen admitted to having
Speaker 1: a strong interest in the occult, a fact made evident
Speaker 1: by the nature of the killings attributed to him. The
Speaker 1: first victim was killed on Friday the thirteenth, the second
Speaker 1: honor about Halloween, and the third murder was the stabbing
Speaker 1: of a Catholic priest in his confessional on November second,
Speaker 1: celebrated as All Souls Day. Now to briefly recap, no
Speaker 1: fewer than six serial killers slash mass murderers, Charles Manson,
Speaker 1: Stanley Baker, Edmund Kempert, Herbert Mullen, John Lyndley Fraser, and
Speaker 1: the Zodiac were all spawned from the Santa Cruz, San
Speaker 1: Francisco metropolitan area in a span of just over four years,
Speaker 1: at a time when the serial killers were a rare
Speaker 1: enough phenomenon that they hadn't yet acquired a name. So
Speaker 1: I think that this time in history was ushering in
Speaker 1: the phenomenon of the serial killer. I mean, think of
Speaker 1: the names on that list. A lot of them people
Speaker 1: aren't even familiar with, Like the Stanley Baker guy here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say Charles Manson and the Zodiac.
Speaker 2: You get those four dudes in the middle. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't think anybody knows who those are. If they're just
Speaker 2: like you know, they're true crime hobbyists. Those names aren't
Speaker 2: gonna come up a lot. Stanley Baker, Edmund Kemper, Herbert Mullen,
Speaker 2: John Lindley.
Speaker 1: Frasier, like you don't hear about them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're definitely not as big as Manson and Zodiac.
Speaker 1: But do you think this was the training wheels for
Speaker 1: what was going to become the tied Bundy's and the
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmins.
Speaker 2: And then the hotbed area being northern California of course,
Speaker 2: right would be kind of where I mean, you had
Speaker 2: a lot of these like satanic ritual abuse stuff happening
Speaker 2: with kids, and Michael Lochino also who he keep masking.
Speaker 1: Was that happening that was happening around this same time
Speaker 1: too though, right? Yeah, so you have that and this.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think like the lid getting blown
Speaker 2: off of all the sex abuse scandals with the military
Speaker 2: bases and preschools was much.
Speaker 1: Later than this, but it's the same area.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at Michael Achino's past himself,
Speaker 2: as a child. It's it was going on way before
Speaker 2: any of this, So yeah, I think it's safe to
Speaker 2: say that it was the breeding ground for it.
Speaker 1: And also what was taking place in this in this
Speaker 1: era is something that you and I love to talk about,
Speaker 1: which is Laurel Canyon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had in this area, the one everybody knew
Speaker 2: about for the longest time before McGowan's work would be
Speaker 2: just the the LSD music scene with all of the
Speaker 2: fucking tell tale c A connections and just the basic psyop.
Speaker 2: I mean, for fuck's sake, you had Courtney Love's dad
Speaker 2: back there.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's a hard one. It's like,
Speaker 1: when I first found out about the Laurel Canyon connections,
Speaker 1: it was hard for me to believe that all of
Speaker 1: the people that I grew up loving so much could
Speaker 1: be like this could all.
Speaker 2: Just be.
Speaker 1: For me controlled I guess, yeah, it's hard. So it's
Speaker 1: like even harder to believe that they're running multiple programs
Speaker 1: at the same time, or it's actually easier to believe
Speaker 1: that they're running multiple programs at the same time. You
Speaker 1: got the Laurel Canyon, you got counterculture movement happening, you
Speaker 1: have all this pedophilia shit going down, and then you
Speaker 1: have serial killers. It's like they're trying, they're testing the
Speaker 1: waters for multiple and the Laurel Canyon body count is
Speaker 1: fucking forever long too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this definitely took off in California, but
Speaker 2: you had like Tavistock with the Beatles and like the
Speaker 2: Tennessee music scene. A lot of this stuff was happening
Speaker 2: way before this. But it's almost like they just went
Speaker 2: fucking hogwild in California, like they were.
Speaker 1: Just given it was the birthplace.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it was like an experiment on many levels
Speaker 2: and a multi.
Speaker 1: Layer, like a five layer burrito of like CIA programs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think a lot of blowback happened from
Speaker 2: it too, because if you look at like, yeah, you
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, none of this shit outside Santa Cruz was
Speaker 2: sensationalized now the Manson killings, where it's almost like America
Speaker 2: just had an overload with the Manson stuff and it
Speaker 2: wasn't They didn't either, They didn't feel the need to
Speaker 2: blow it up in the media like they did Manson
Speaker 2: and the others in Zodiac. But this other stuff's way
Speaker 2: more interesting to me, where you had just like these
Speaker 2: independent people maybe working on their own volition, fucking sacrificing
Speaker 2: people ritualistically in the mountains of Santa Cruz.
Speaker 1: It's pretty fun.
Speaker 2: Could it be blowback or was it part of the
Speaker 2: plan too, where it was just like, you know, that
Speaker 2: was our rough draft. We'll just throw this one away.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Now to kind of give the listeners a little hint
Speaker 1: on what we're going to be talking about in our
Speaker 1: next episode together.
Speaker 2: And a hint for me too, is that.
Speaker 1: Another serial killer was said to be at work not
Speaker 1: far away. During the same timeframe, the bodies of at
Speaker 1: least fourteen young women and girls were found nude and
Speaker 1: with their belongings missing in northern California between December nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine and December nineteen seventy three. In the immediate
Speaker 1: vicinity of each of the bodies was found an elaborate
Speaker 1: witchcraft symbol of twigs and rocks that was mentioned in
Speaker 1: a very well researched book I read called The Deliberate
Speaker 1: Stranger by Richard Larson. You should read that. It's really good,
Speaker 1: and he was investigating the one and only Theodore Robert Bundy.
Speaker 1: It's curious no one ever mentions this though in the
Speaker 1: Netflix documentaries about the fucking Twigs and berry fucking occult
Speaker 1: fucking insignia that was found near all of the Bundy victims.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not well known.
Speaker 1: I mean, and like I said, I do think that
Speaker 1: the fucking Manson Stanley Baker, Edmund Kimper, Herbert Mullen, John Linley,
Speaker 1: Free Zodiac, like they were the training wheels for like
Speaker 1: these bigger projects that they were working on. Because then
Speaker 1: it all of a sudden we get fucking Ted Bundy.
Speaker 1: And then was it not long after that? Who was
Speaker 1: right after Ted Bundy? Maybe like dom No gay Sy
Speaker 1: and then Dahmer because Dahmer was like nineties, I.
Speaker 2: Mean maybe as far back as the seventies and eighties.
Speaker 2: They've tried to link a lot of stuff to him.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2: I mean he's another you know, military baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sure.
Speaker 2: They've tried to say that there was stuff in Germany,
Speaker 2: I believe where he was stationed that went unsolved. Well,
Speaker 2: he was there, so he could have been getting his
Speaker 2: fucking fingers wet long before the Netflix shit talked.
Speaker 1: About Did you watch any of those which ones like
Speaker 1: the Netflix on you did? We talk talked about it
Speaker 1: on on Ted Bundy and Jeff Hmer, the Ted Bundy
Speaker 1: tapes around.
Speaker 2: I mean, I see a lot of that stuff. I'll
Speaker 2: start and I don't, I don't. I mean a lot
Speaker 2: of it's just regurgitated. And I mean back when I
Speaker 2: was a teenager, I read all the serial Killer books
Speaker 2: and the tapes. I mean, they're interesting, but it seems
Speaker 2: to me like Netflix really wants to draw this shit out, yeah,
Speaker 2: ties or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did find the fictionalized version with Evan Peters to be.
Speaker 1: Oh of Jeff Dahmer phenomenal. Oh yeah, now that was
Speaker 1: one that was like, I do think they snuck some
Speaker 1: woke shit.
Speaker 2: Oh. They definitely tried to make it a race thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah they did.
Speaker 2: There was that element to it. But he didn't fucking discriminate.
Speaker 1: Oh no, he had an Alaoesian kid, He had black guys,
Speaker 1: white guys.
Speaker 2: He had.
Speaker 4: They talked about the kid in the in the in
Speaker 4: the show, Yeah, what was his name, conorrac synthis.
Speaker 1: In foam.
Speaker 2: Say that five times then.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that they do kind of
Speaker 1: make celebrities out of these motherfuckers, not.
Speaker 2: Just kind of God's out of them.
Speaker 1: They are kind of like idols a little and so
Speaker 1: you know, can I ask you something from a man's
Speaker 1: perspective and like you just give me your honest answer. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I watched a documentary and actually, when I came
Speaker 1: to visit you the first time, I really wanted you
Speaker 1: to watch it with me. And maybe we'll get around
Speaker 1: to it one day. It's on Amazon Prime, but it's
Speaker 1: it's Ted Bundy's long term girlfriend giving her account of
Speaker 1: how she saw things unfolding.
Speaker 2: And this is the one that like talked to him
Speaker 2: right before he got executed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Her name is Elizabeth Klepford and she actually turned him
Speaker 1: in and that was in the the zach Efron movies too. Yeah, Now,
Speaker 1: if he was doing this stuff and he was necrofiling
Speaker 1: and obviously he's got these fucking twigs and berry fucking
Speaker 1: witchcraft symbols and doing all this ship up in the mountains,
Speaker 1: some of the girls were decapitated, some of them like
Speaker 1: they were in various states of mutilation. And he's going
Speaker 1: back home to Elizabeth and they're fucking and she's not
Speaker 1: getting one hint of a fucking iota of a fucking
Speaker 1: clue that there's something wrong with him.
Speaker 2: An accomplice for all right now, But that's.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying. It would make more sense that she
Speaker 1: never got a yeast infection, never got a UTI. I
Speaker 1: don't know he's she never said that though she never
Speaker 1: she was like, oh, I would have never known he
Speaker 1: was with the dead bodies. You would have had to, right,
Speaker 1: because like, if you're fucking a dead vagina.
Speaker 2: Going to me from a man's perspective.
Speaker 1: Like, no, I'm saying, like, do you think she would
Speaker 1: have gotten an infection from that? Or do you think I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I'm not a doctor, but it seems risky.
Speaker 1: And also if she never got a hint of anything right,
Speaker 1: either she's retarded or she was in on it.
Speaker 2: Or she's acting. I mean, look at this, because it
Speaker 2: made me think of it earlier when you first said it,
Speaker 2: and I talked about blowback earlier. If anybody hasn't seen
Speaker 2: the first season of True Detective, Oh, it's so good.
Speaker 2: These iconography type killings where they leave certain.
Speaker 1: Symbols twigs and berries.
Speaker 2: The reason that would have been covered up and not
Speaker 2: talked about and sensationalized like the rest of the Bundy
Speaker 2: stuff is because it was a bunch of people doing
Speaker 2: it boo, And I mean McGowan even alludes to in
Speaker 2: Programmed to Kill that a lot of the murders that
Speaker 2: they pinned on Bundy couldn't have been him, And then
Speaker 2: there was murders that he may have been involved in
Speaker 2: that weren't pinned on him. I mean, it just goes
Speaker 2: all over the place, but it does allude to like
Speaker 2: a satanic goal of some kind doing all this stuff
Speaker 2: that he may have been a part of or working
Speaker 2: in tandem with on different psyops.
Speaker 1: Well, he was political and he was Mormon, so he's
Speaker 1: got that going for him.
Speaker 2: You know, if you want to party, those political Mormons
Speaker 2: are the ones to hang out with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the ones who also liked to necrophile fucking dead person.
Speaker 1: But I mean to summon all up, I think like
Speaker 1: that we're getting a good picture of like the beginning
Speaker 1: of this serial killer with.
Speaker 2: This definitely, like you said, this was going on in
Speaker 2: a time where they didn't even have a name for
Speaker 2: it yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But so if this is the first time you've
Speaker 1: heard Colby, congrats you've just leveled up in your conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory game. And with that being said, there is one
Speaker 1: very important vital piece of information I need you to learn,
Speaker 1: just as soon as humanly possible.
Speaker 2: People a strange When you're.
Speaker 3: A strange, faces look uglue when you're own lone women
Speaker 3: seeing what kid when your own.
Speaker 2: Low streets around.
Speaker 3: Even when you're down, when you're strange, when you strange, No,
Speaker 3: when we met as wrenn. When you stray, when you're strange,
Speaker 3: stray eat both stray when you're a stranger. Face is
Speaker 3: not done when you're all lone.
Speaker 1: When let's see why good ready?
Speaker 2: In Fun four three, you don't say two ruine.
Speaker 1: Fly? I like it? Actually? Do you think this is
Speaker 1: good between the both of us? Like this distance?
Speaker 2: I might just get closer to the talk.
Speaker 1: Okay, all the girls in.
Speaker 2: Your audience are pick Oh my god, hot cinnamon.
Speaker 1: That is gonna start burning if you don't wipe a
Speaker 1: dog all right, I.
Speaker 2: Sneak someday zoom. It's gonna cancel all of us and
Speaker 2: released unedited.
Speaker 1: Transcripts of us.
Speaker 2: It's saying disinformations.
Speaker 1: Fucked, It's ready home, I gonna pass. This is the
Speaker 1: one that the Zodiac Murder opens. The Zodiac movie opens with,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember how to say this guy's last name, nomje.
Speaker 1: I knew because they made a joke about it in
Speaker 1: the Zodiac that nobody could pronounce his last name and
Speaker 1: they kept calling him mgu and it's Mijou, Michael Mjou.
Speaker 2: I mean, how far are we going to get into
Speaker 2: the Manson murders in this.
Speaker 1: Episode as far as you want?
Speaker 2: Well, is there like an episode or coming up that's
Speaker 2: gonna be specifically.
Speaker 1: About I'm going to really I'm gonna so I think
Speaker 1: we should talk about it like in this one or later.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, why am I blanking? I am too?
Speaker 1: Whereon bron Warner von Broun.
Speaker 2: What's his name that wrote did Ilter my Pulter Skelter Bulgosi?
Speaker 1: I think it's I always said Bulgosi.
Speaker 2: I'm dead. I'm look it up, look up, Skelter'll start
Speaker 2: that sentence over?
Speaker 1: Are you having some bays? I changed my my HST team.
Speaker 2: It was Buglios Vincent. Your name was Orlando. I'm Brad