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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. How are you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thank you for let me back.

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It's always a pleasure, particularly going so soon back to back.

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I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Well. I want to have you on a few times,

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especially for this one subject, because I know it's your specialty,

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it's of great interest to you. And World War two

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is absolutely fascinating. I don't even think, well, we can

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even bother getting into the Pacific at this point. Let's

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stay in you know, let's stay in Europe. But in

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your where do you start? Most people, when they a

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lot of good historians start with the Treaty of Versailles

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and say, the Treaty of Versailles basically was the foundation

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for what led up to World War two? So what's

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your take on that?

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Speaker 2: That certainly is what created the political culture of vie

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are so, I mean, that's that that was an essential catalyst,

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But it wasn't the sole approximate cause. I really it

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was the Bolshevik Revolution, which was an international phenomenon. Like

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I know, I don't want to I don't want to

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jump the gun or go too far afield into a

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kind of theoretical topic that's not totally material to what

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we're what's right in front of us. But you know,

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I saye Ernst Nulty a lot because he gets into

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the the psychological as well as kind of the metahi

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historical context of the war, and a lot of people

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people don't like him for out of reasons. I'm not

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gonna flesh out all those reasons right here, notause it's controversial,

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but because again I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: I've read two of his books. I think I understand why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but the people who, uh, people who people

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who attack him. One of the things that they emphasize

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is they say, like, well, you know, the the Russian Revolution,

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and that was happening in in you know, in in

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Moscow and Saint Petersburg, you know, to a lesser degree,

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and and uh, you know in these kind of frontier territories,

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the Baltic it's like that. I mean, it's not really true.

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I mean, yeah, obviously, I mean those were primary theaters,

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but you know, in Bavaria there was an actual Communist revolution,

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and in Berlin, I mean the Communists were fighting, uh

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the Stalholm and in the Free Corps in the street.

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Quite literally, it's a it's a really really stupid movie.

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It was this TV movie from about twenty years ago.

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It's got Peter Stormeyer as as Captain Rahm, which is

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kind of cool. But it's called Hitler Rise of Evil.

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I mean that that that's that's a that's an overwrought

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title if there ever was one Rise of Evil. But

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there's a scene in munich uh where the where they

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you know, the communists are literally shooting it out with

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Peter stormeraz ram and and these Stalholm type guys. And

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that's not Hollywood stuff. I mean that really happened. You know,

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it was a civil war situation. So the you know,

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the national socialists, I mean yeah, like that was the

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only reason there were like the treae ever saw in

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the fact that it became clear, you know that the

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Allies weren't really interested in creating some kind of workable

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political order that the you know, combatant states it could

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or the former combat and states could live with. They

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were they were basically interested in looting Germany. I mean, yeah,

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that that was essential. But national socialism. To understand antial

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socialism and understand the twentieth century generally, you've got to

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understand communism and you gotta understand the fact that it

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was a revolutionary paradigm underway, and like Noldy said, it

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was like a European civil war was underway, and and

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that and that's so, I mean, yeah, but I but again,

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and the treaty conditions were such that I mean that

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that should not be that should be indisputable to people,

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I mean, wherever they fall in the issue, where whatever, however,

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even if they had a very very putative view of Germany,

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you know, and I mean incidentally too, that's I've gone

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to I've gone to bad for Wilson before because I

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think Wilson was a good man, or because I think

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he was a great president or something. But you can't

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really hang responsibility for Versailles and and the kind of

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disaster of the of the of the punitive peace on Wilson,

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you know, Wilson's fourteen points. I mean that might seem

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kind of high falutin and silly and from a real

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politic perspective, but Wilson didn't want to punish Berlin. He

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he was disgusted by the Treaty of Versailles, and he

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threw his hands up instead. I you know, he he

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because he realized that you know, he basically he basically

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bailed out quite literally, you know the uh like like

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London and Paris, and then they paid him back by

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saying like, Okay, you know, now's our chance to loot

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Germany and and not remedy the the conditions that gave

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rise to the war in the first place. So yeah,

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I mean, that's that's correct. I don't really, I don't really,

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But at the same time, it's important not to reduce

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things just to that. Like I've heard, I know, people

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like Ian Kershaw, they they act like Adolf Hitler was

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was some gonna con man who just capitalized and these

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these kinds of grievances that were were kind of middling.

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I mean, first of all, Viima early was tailored directed

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the German economy like that was its point. It wasn't

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just this misunderstanding or you know, this kind of this

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kind of somewhat objectionable piece that you know, the these

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crazy German chauvenates just decided to fixate. And you know,

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the you're gonna you're you're you're gonna you're gonna provoke

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some kind of you're gonna provoke some kind of hostile

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reaction if you impose something like that on a people.

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I mean and I and plus why why would you

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do that? The you know, even if you're even if

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you hate the Germans, you don't care or you just

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don't care about their fortunes as a people. I mean,

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why you if if you're gonna, if you're gonna subject

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people to a starvation regime. I mean, you're you're not

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you're not looking forward to a workable piece. You're you're

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gonna just generate structural instability. So yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems that whymar one of the easiest ways

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to destroy it, that was the way they always do

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it through the banks.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's also the thing with World War One is this,

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I I object strongly. People are always uh, people think

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they're being smart, you know when they Smedley Butler and

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they're like, yeah, you know, wars just about you know,

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Wall Street, Like it's really not true. I mean, wars

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are bad for business generally. The fact that the fact

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that there's firms and individual men who find ways to

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profit from war, or the fact that there's guys like

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Dick Cheney and like Helliburton who where that's basically their

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mo I mean that that you know, there's guy there's

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guys who had some kind of who are on the

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make in all kind of sectors of political life. But

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on its face, you know, Wall Street is never shit

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hot to go to war because this is some way

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to make money. But at the same time, like crazy

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as it might sound to us, I mean, because we

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take kind of informational awareness for granted, there was a

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strong financial aspect to the Great War as regards America

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and JP Morgan. They they extended a huge amount of

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unsecured credit to the British Crown, and the British had

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essentially said this diplomatic delegation that also had this kind

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of high flying banker types with them, and they'd approached

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they'd approached Wall Street, you know, in nineteen fifteen, when

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of being clear that you know, kind of a quagmire

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was setting in, you know, and they secured all this,

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all this unsecured They secured this, you know, the huge

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unsecured line of credits, basically saying like, look, you know

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that that we you know, just a few months, you know,

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we'll have broken the back of the German war machine

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and then we're all gonna get paid. And then it

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became clear that wasn't gonna happen, and JP Morgan essentially

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got on the on the phone quite literally the telegram

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telegraph as it were, probably the Colonel House, and and

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Wilson had said, you fix this right now. You know

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you cannot. You're not gonna let London lose this war,

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and you're not gonna let us eat this loss. I mean,

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that wasn't the sole reason why Wilson went to war,

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but I mean that was a big part of it,

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you know, So, I mean it was there's a whole

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lot of there's a lot of very very corrupt stuff

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going on, and that was and it was a little

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more opaguean what happened in the Second World War, Like

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people lie about the Second World War a lot and

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say crazy things about it, and you know, there's ethno

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sectarian narratives about it that are nakedly political, but it's

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it's more it's more kind of clear cut, like the

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Great War doesn't really make a lot of sense. It

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was a strange example of of of of security paradigms

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kind of not really matching up with the technology the day,

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like the killing technology, I mean of the battlefield. And

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it was like a basic failure at the turns I

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mean that's why it's really interesting. Frankly, it uh, you know,

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and I think I genuinely think, you know, the last

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we take for granted because you know, the War between

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the States like really really really screwed things up in

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America for decades. You know, it did, like America didn't

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really normalize until the turn of the century. By Europe,

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Europe after Waterloo didn't really fight any major wars. I mean,

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there's a Crimean War, but I mean that was kind

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of localized in theater, like literally in the Crimea, you know,

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and there was the Fraango Prussian War, which you know

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was a this like this kind of incredible you know,

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German victory. I mean, I realized pressure wasn't Germany yet,

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but you know, the modern German state is the Prussian

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state until ninety forty five in my opinion. But point being,

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it's not like Europe had fought some like heavy, heavy

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conflicts in the in the in the nineteenth century, and

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we're developing a sense of of of what that modern

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battlefield was going to look like and how it was

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going to impact you know, uh, national economies and things,

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and how it was going to create shortages, and how

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it was basically just gonna slaughter people. I mean, so

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that was part of it, even on even uh in particular,

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like the I think the German high command, I think,

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I think the Kaiser right. And this isn't just because

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I've got a warmer view of Germany than i do

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the other combatant states. I think it's in disputable. They

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had a bit a better idea of how things were

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going to develop. And that's one of the reasons why Khovig,

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the Chancellor, was beside himself when it became clear that

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France was gonna go to work, because I think he

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despite he wasn't any kind of military man, but he

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he knew that some kind of slaughter was gonna happen.

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But I think you know, if you if you read

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the kind of internal memorandums, I mean, what what amount

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of internal memorandums and kind of internal debate and discussion

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in London and in Paris, and to a lesser degree

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like within the within the Czar's kind of inner circle.

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But that's a bit more complicated. Like these guys really

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didn't get it. They thought this was kind of they

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thought it's gonna be kind of a brushfire or affair

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and that or they thought that, you know, they they

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thought that, you know, the Germans just basically wanted to

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like force force some kind of concessions on their on

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their key uh, on their key demands. And but you know, okay,

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well you know, we'll just fight for a little while

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and then you know we can come to the table

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and position a strength. That's not that's not at all

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the way that the Kaiser right saw it. And they

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certainly didn't think that they were gonna lose you know,

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a million people. Uh, But they they didn't think it

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was you know, it's gonna be as you know, four

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year long as you know kind of like and was

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destructive affair. So yeah, that's a good point.

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Speaker 1: So what most people know about why mar is there's

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two things. One that it became really degenerate and morally,

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and two the money supply got inflated to the point

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where people were, you know, needed wheelbarrows full of money

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in order to buy a loaf of bread, which is

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probably you know, just lore, but I hope it's low.

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Speaker 2: But the.

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Speaker 1: What do you see as what's your understanding of what

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was going on there?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like I said, the the uh, like

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we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: You know, uh, the but was it like, I mean,

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it almost seems like, you know, how now we have

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these people, it's like, oh, we have to teach kindergarteners

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about queer theory. Yeah, things like it. I mean, it's

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like it almost seems when you think about it, when

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you look back and you if you know anything about

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the history of Prussia and then you go forward to Wymar,

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it's like, that looks planned. That looks like somebody injected

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that into their on purpose. Even the degeneracy, even you know,

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the whole the whole idea of siphoning and looting the country,

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which I think in the modern day we can talk

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about Ukraine. It seems like it's the same exact thing.

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But it seems like that was all planned. You know

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that it was sure a lot of people are going

241
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to load a lot of countries, but I mean they

242
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made sure that it was that it was going to

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be catastrophic because they not only defeated them, destroyed their

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money supply, but they destroyed their morality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And uh, well, it's also to the starvation blockade

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endured for once after the cessation of hostilities. With regard

247
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to the kind of moral debiency. Yeah, I mean it

248
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wasn't essentially orchestrated as us as was the case post

249
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ninety forty five and in the bundest Republic, the Boonese

250
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Republic and particularly West Berlin was flooded with pornography after

251
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the Second World War, and that if you read Wilhelm Reich,

252
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he was this. He was this German Jewish, a psychologist.

253
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He wrote about that about about about breaking the moral

254
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foundation of people's in order to essentially make them melble.

255
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Obviously that this is more about bored than he will think,

256
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but that that there definitely wasn't. Yeah, there definitely wasn't

257
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intentional subversion in their regard. But it it's like I

258
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generally agree with Ian Michael Joan is what he wrote

259
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about this, and I'm not going too far afield because

260
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it's it's material to what we're talking about in a

261
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very direct way, you know, you, Michael Jones, I was

262
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coming back to the idea that you know, look like

263
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Marquis de Sade was actually he considered himself to be

264
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a political thinker. You know, he wasn't just this, He

265
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wasn't just this kind of sick individual. So of the

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degenerate aristocrat, like writing pornography and writing about sex, because

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that's what kind of decadent aristocrats do. I mean, yeah,

268
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that is what they do. But he was widely publishing

269
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this stuff because his notion was that, you know, well,

270
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you know, the the foundation of what I don't like

271
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in France and in Europe generally is this kind of

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thrown in altered sensibility where you know, you've got this,

273
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you've got this kind of you know you've got this, uh,

274
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you've got Roman Catholicism propping up the see of sovereignty

275
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and the monarchy, and and it derives us authority, it

276
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drives us a leg intimacy from a claim that it

277
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reflects providential design, and the basis of that is the

278
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pre eminence of reason over passion and irrational things. So

279
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it wasn't just that you know, Dasad didn't like females

280
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and he didn't or that he was a statist and homosexual,

281
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or that he you know, he wanted he wanted to

282
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kind of screw with people's morals and horrify them, like

283
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he wanted to do all of those things. But his

284
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idea was also that, well, if I get people to say,

285
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you know why why do I want to privilege reason

286
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over over my passions? I just want to you know,

287
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I just want to do things that feel good, or

288
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I want to pursue, you know, sexually diving stuff. Or

289
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why why should I be a family man when I

290
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can you know, visit prostitutes or you know, why why

291
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would I want to be involved with women anyway when

292
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I can go with men and just kind of do

293
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whatever I want. You know, I mean that this this

294
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idea that sexuality and like social morals like aren't political,

295
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Like that's nonsense. So yeah, I mean that was part

296
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of it. And it also you know, I mean people

297
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in Germany were it wasn't just like far right guys

298
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and stuff. I mean, feel very cognitive these things in

299
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those days, you know, like now because they were a

300
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bunch of prudes or did weren't you know, worldly or something,

301
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,680
you know, if any think people then were like a

302
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,759
lot more worldly than now because like life and death

303
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was kind of like in their everyday life. And particularly

304
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,680
then you had you know, you had millions of guys

305
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milling about in Germany who kind of come they you know,

306
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,960
they'd spent their formative years, you know, in the military.

307
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You know, it's not this idea that Germany was this

308
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,160
provincial kind of place. Who and they freaked out about

309
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,039
sex like that's ridiculous, obviously, but they you know, they

310
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,920
so not only German. They saw what was going on

311
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,880
in terms of that kind of subversion. But it's also

312
00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:44,119
you know, the the National Socialists are better or worse.

313
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They they they were not conservatives and they didn't pretend

314
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to be. And you know the reason why, speaking of Ram,

315
00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:54,359
the reason why guys like Rahm or in their ranks,

316
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,359
particularly the revolutionary phase. You know, it's like Hitler said,

317
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,400
you know, when people objected to some of these characters

318
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,000
being in uh in his milieu, He's like, you know, yeah,

319
00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,039
Ron might be a degenerate guy, but he's great under fire.

320
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,880
And I think Hitler said, you know, the Essay is

321
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,359
a tough fighting force. It's not a finishing school for

322
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,319
young ladies. So I don't give a shit what these

323
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,200
guys do in their off time, as long as they're

324
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,119
loyal and uh, they're willing to fight. And so my

325
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,880
point is that it's not like, it's not like Hitler,

326
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,400
and it's not you know, or even Strass or any

327
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,880
of these guys. It's it's not the National Socials didn't

328
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,039
become popular because these guys are a bunch of you know,

329
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,240
kind of moralizing conservatives. And it's not like they it's

330
00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:43,839
not like they you know, just fixated on pornography and

331
00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:48,640
and socially deviant things because they they were these uptight conservatives.

332
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,920
Like I'm not saying there's anything wrong with conservativesm or

333
00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:53,319
objecting those things. Obviously those things are bad. And my

334
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960
point is that this stuff is kind of so extreme

335
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,079
and so nakedly political. I mean, that's why the National

336
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,079
Socialists were We're reacting to it so strongly because you know,

337
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,400
it was you know, I mean to to Jones's point,

338
00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:09,599
I mean that that kind of stuff is always political.

339
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,480
It's never it's never truly just secular, never truly just

340
00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:18,559
you know, incidentally political occurrences. But it was it was

341
00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,559
so it was so negatively uh, tailored to attack the

342
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,920
kind of prevailing social order and and things, that it

343
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,359
became a priority to remedy it to the kind of

344
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the kind of radical right, the radical you know, national

345
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socialist right. So yeah, I mean, that's that's very true.

346
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: You had already mentioned that you talk about rom fighting

347
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,480
in the streets basically have civil war in the streets

348
00:19:46,519 --> 00:19:50,319
in uh in Germany in the twenties. So how does

349
00:19:50,319 --> 00:19:53,039
the wey mar how do how do the national Socialists

350
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,680
come out of this? And what's what's the direction in

351
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:58,279
the twenties.

352
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 2: I mean, my opinion is that Germany was a Germany

353
00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:10,960
was doing a little bit better. Uh Gustav Stressman. He

354
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,240
he found a way of kind of mirror compliance with

355
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,119
the reparations payments, and he was also able to draw

356
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,119
Germany even at its worst. You know, people have confidence

357
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,119
and its ability to produce and get a return on

358
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,680
their investment. It's a Stressman who was you know, Chancellor.

359
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,319
He gets kind of a bad rap. I'm not saying

360
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:27,799
he was a good man or that he was like

361
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:29,759
on the side of his own people like the way

362
00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:32,920
he should have been. But he can't just like dismiss

363
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,039
him as this like race trader or bad guy. And

364
00:20:35,039 --> 00:20:39,519
he understood economics very well, and uh Schumpeter actually praised him.

365
00:20:39,559 --> 00:20:42,200
And I'm a big Schumpeter guy if I mean that,

366
00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:45,880
and not that I am some kind of authority on economics.

367
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,880
But point being, Stressman was able to garner a fair

368
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,759
amount of direct foreign investment such that it. I mean,

369
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,279
there wasn't the kind of complex interdependence in those days

370
00:20:56,279 --> 00:21:00,839
that we did granted today, but the name national economy

371
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,240
was bouncing back to a degree. Uh. Germany was kind

372
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,960
of beginning to come to terms a bit with UH,

373
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with London, not so much in Paris. But then the

374
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:15,440
but then the nineteen twenty nine financial crisis happened, collapse happened,

375
00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:18,240
rather wasn't as a crisis, and that through that through

376
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:20,400
Germany into a tail spin in a lot of ways,

377
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,359
and all all the kind of ground they excuse me,

378
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,160
all the kind of ground they gained seemed to have

379
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,519
evaporated overnight, and that really that really put the National

380
00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:35,119
Socialists back on the map. And plus the uh, the

381
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,400
international situation was getting more critical too, you know, it

382
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,319
became I think it was around I mean twenty nine,

383
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,519
nineteen thirty that uh, it started to become clear. I mean,

384
00:21:46,519 --> 00:21:49,640
even though the Soviet Union was nothing like it was

385
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,920
ten years subsequent, but it became clear that the Soviet

386
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,599
Union was gonna was becoming a superpower. That though those concepts,

387
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,759
those kind of jew tradgic concepts weren't really in people's

388
00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:02,960
mind yet, but they people understood the power potential of

389
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,079
of America. And and and they understand I mean especially

390
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,160
the Germans because they fought the Americans. You know, they

391
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,880
they take in the full front of the US Army,

392
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,680
which is not any fun thing, especially in those days.

393
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,240
But you know, so it was but the the power

394
00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:21,720
potential of the suet Union was becoming was becoming a

395
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:25,680
parent I mean, aside in the fact that Bolshivism was

396
00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,519
it had become something of a psychological contagion. I'm not

397
00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:32,160
saying that It's not melodramatic. It was the best way

398
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,640
can describe it. You know. It there was like the

399
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:40,039
apocall the conditions of the epoch seem to be favoring

400
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,200
communism and people really freaked out. So yeah, it was

401
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,160
it was all of those things. And and like I said,

402
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,039
it wasn't It wasn't just that the nineteen twenty nine collapse.

403
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,680
It it didn't just kick people's asses like it I

404
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,880
mean it like I mean it did people all across

405
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,599
the planet, but I mean every major developed economy. But

406
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,400
it it was especially brutal to the Germans because they'd

407
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,720
actually they've been making ground, you know, uh, after a

408
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,240
after a in in the in the wake of uh,

409
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,000
you know, the guitastrophe in nineteen eighteen, and then and

410
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:14,640
then they suddenly just you know, all those games devaporated

411
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,960
overnightth and you know, it was it was kind of

412
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,559
like the final uh nailing the cough and the people's

413
00:23:20,559 --> 00:23:23,400
willingness to to accept you know, that there was some

414
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,160
sort of like parliamentary democratic solution to their problems, and

415
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,920
that that's my view of a perfect storm of stuff.

416
00:23:31,519 --> 00:23:34,599
Speaker 1: So around the time of the crash in twenty nine,

417
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:37,559
What's where's Hitler at? What's he doing?

418
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,799
Speaker 2: That was a national Socialist big break that was their

419
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:46,839
first big breakthrough, you know, and it was uh, you know,

420
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,640
I mean, people it all felt learning a lot of

421
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,880
was he pioneered kind of what we can what became

422
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,839
kind of you know, modern campaigning techniques of the twentieth century.

423
00:23:58,759 --> 00:24:00,839
That's why I'm in the you know, trying for the will.

424
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,359
You know how there's this It opens up with this

425
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:10,240
you know, aerial shot of of Hitler's aircraft descending out

426
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,279
of the airfield, you know, like breaches the clouds. I mean,

427
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:14,160
that's just like a really cool shot, you know, and

428
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,039
it was kind of like, uh, like the camera work

429
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,400
was pretty radical, uh like not radical like it was cool.

430
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,240
Like I mean it was that too, like radical like

431
00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,200
it hadn't really been done before. But uh, the reason

432
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,720
why that's a big deal, it wasn't. It wasn't just Hitler,

433
00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:32,119
you know, trying to flex about like how cool like

434
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,000
is his pr staff was, Ah, that was part of it.

435
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,559
But like Hitler was the it was the first national

436
00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:40,400
political figure to you know, like shoot all over the

437
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,799
place in the plane so that you know that he

438
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,079
campaign face to face, you know, and that was a

439
00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:46,759
big deal because people didn't do that before, you know.

440
00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:50,039
I mean, Hitler was basically campaigning his ass off. And

441
00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:54,319
that's what my confidence too. I'm always telling people to

442
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,079
read Hitler's second book that was unpublished. It's just called

443
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,960
the second Book, even though it never actually was a book.

444
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,200
It was just a manuscript because it was it was

445
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,559
discovered after the day of defeat. But that that's that's

446
00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:09,759
basically Hitler's geopolitical book, like my cop is is like uh,

447
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,519
it's basically uh, it's Hitler like meeting his case to

448
00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:15,319
the German voter as the wife you should vote to

449
00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:18,640
the National Socialist. That's what that goofy when you get

450
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,319
these losers. Whether it was you know, old Chrissy Hitchens

451
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,759
or whether it's uh Ian Kersha, It's like, oh, mine

452
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:26,119
cop is a terrible book. It's like, well, bro, it's not.

453
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,039
It's not supposed to be Shakespeare. It's like it's it's

454
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,079
it's it's a man who's you know, running for political

455
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,519
office saying why you should vote for his party. I

456
00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:36,359
mean that that it's that's not gonna be you know,

457
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,240
like compelling reading, you know, a century after the fact,

458
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:42,440
because I mean that can't that point can't be overstated.

459
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,039
Like people act like people that people act like the

460
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,799
National Socialists put like pulled the wooll over everybody's eyes

461
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:51,240
by like pretending to be this above board party. It's

462
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:54,240
like they they were, they were they were a political party.

463
00:25:54,279 --> 00:25:56,039
I wanted people to vote for them, and people did.

464
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,279
They accomplished the parliamentary parliamentary already. They were the finangle

465
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:04,759
the chancellorship out of it. Their primary up, their primary

466
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:11,920
opposition was engaged in a war against uh the legitimate,

467
00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:14,519
against the seat of government. It was entirely legitimate to

468
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:17,119
ban the KPD. It's like, you don't have to like Hitler,

469
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,319
or you don't have to like national Socialism, but unlike

470
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,880
the UH, I mean, unlike the Bolsheviks and you know

471
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,839
in Russia who just kind of killed people because to

472
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,880
get what they wanted, the National Socialists were the legitimate

473
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,920
government in Germany. I mean that I don't want I

474
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,000
don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. I mean,

475
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,880
that's that That's one of the interesting things about other

476
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,480
than Nuremberg narratives tailored. I mean that this idea that

477
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:43,000
you know, the government in Germany was illegitimate. I mean

478
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:44,759
you could you could say it was an evil government.

479
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:47,720
I guess if that turns you on, But it wasn't

480
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,240
this illegal or really, you know, illegitimate government. The election

481
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,759
returns that the National Socialists got were I mean above board.

482
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,759
That's not super important anyway. Like the point I made,

483
00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:02,440
you know, uh, the plebiscite that made Hitler to fear

484
00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:07,000
the fear uh Hitler added something totally insane, like eighty

485
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,599
nine point three percent of German voters I thought he

486
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,680
was great. Like people loved Adolf Hitler. They didn't like

487
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:16,240
love the National Socialist Party. I mean they they had

488
00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:19,359
the national eldi plurality. But the key takeaway is that

489
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,480
the Germans loved Adolf Hitler, not that they loved the

490
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,400
party that he represented, but that's you know, that's uh,

491
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:30,039
that's basically what Adolf Hitler was doing. Uh. I mean

492
00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:32,720
really when he when he got cut loose from Landsburg prison,

493
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,640
I mean, that's just what he said about doing. He said, well,

494
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:40,000
we're gonna he uh. I mean. It was an interesting

495
00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:43,240
given take between him and in the Weimar government. On

496
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:45,640
the one I mean, on the one hand, on the

497
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,440
one hand, he literally, you know, he and he and

498
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,720
shooting a Richter and uh Ludendorff, who in those days

499
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,880
was still an ally of of Hitler. You know, they

500
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,759
literally merged into the against the guns of of Weimar.

501
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,599
But when Hitler found himself in court, they they actually

502
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,079
treated him pretty uh. I mean they treated him really really,

503
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:13,440
not just effic cashously. I mean, they really showed him

504
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,599
a lot of slack. So I mean, I I mean,

505
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,279
I think Hiler realized the writing was on the wall

506
00:28:17,319 --> 00:28:18,839
and that there wasn't some kind of he wasn't going

507
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,839
to be able to duplicate when Mussolini had done in

508
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,400
Rome in nineteen twenty two. It was a part of

509
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,000
that was pragmatic. It wasn't Hitler being a nice guy

510
00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:29,960
or something. But part of it was also that, you know,

511
00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:34,400
he realized the he he wasn't going to be marginalized

512
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,279
by you know, being locked away for twenty years or

513
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,559
you know, being banned from public life or something. So

514
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:42,599
it's like, well, you know, the it would have been,

515
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,680
it would have been un seemly for him to continue

516
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,160
on a revolutionary course after that, and it probably would

517
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,440
have been counterproductive absent some kind of absent, some kind

518
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,720
of situation like happened in the Baltic States where you know,

519
00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,960
the you really did have you know, a kind of

520
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:04,079
uh bloody civil war and their conditions of parody. Germany

521
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:06,480
was dealing with a revolutionary paradigm on the ground, but

522
00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:08,519
it was localized, you know. That's that's why, that's why,

523
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:10,640
that's why the that's why the Munich Soviet was the

524
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,680
big was the communist big coup, because I mean that's

525
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,799
where they that's where they could pull it off. They

526
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,440
they didn't have the they didn't have the political capital

527
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,440
of the forces. And being a pull it off nationwide,

528
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,599
that does not mean it was any less of an

529
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,559
existential threat. And owing to the international situation, it didn't

530
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,240
matter if most Germans weren't communists. It's like, okay, I mean,

531
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,759
if if the communists can they they could have, if

532
00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:35,200
they could carve out these fiefdoms in places like Bavaria,

533
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:38,319
if they could control the Berlin Street. You know, it

534
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:42,000
didn't you know. And and in Germany was a fracturing

535
00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:45,599
mess anyway, owing to Weimar, and you know, the occupation

536
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440
of uh the occupation of the Ruar and things, and

537
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,079
you know, they they wouldn't have been able to resist

538
00:29:51,119 --> 00:29:54,160
Soviet designs. I mean, it's it's a a good situation,

539
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:56,480
but yeah, it's that. That's essentially what Hitler was doing.

540
00:29:57,319 --> 00:29:59,559
You know, he was campaigning like a modern politician, which

541
00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,640
Hyler was many things. And I agree with Russell Stovely,

542
00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:05,839
like I said out on my podcast the other week,

543
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,319
that you know, I think Hitler was a messianic sort

544
00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:13,480
of figure historically speaking, not in religious terms. Obviously he

545
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:17,279
wasn't a he wasn't just a typical politician, but he

546
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,119
was well the Mayas he was a modern politician. Then

547
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,720
he did that very well. I mean, so that's that's

548
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,279
what it was doing during the twenties.

549
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: Let's jump into the thirties a little bit, and I

550
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,200
wanted to talk a little bit more about Europe. You

551
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:36,480
had talked about how you constantly bring up the Bolsheviks.

552
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:42,400
I mean they that nineteen seventeen revolution looms large over

553
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,359
the whole twentieth century. I mean, it's right there. And

554
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,759
what I think a lot of people don't realize is,

555
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,880
and maybe you can talk to this is just how

556
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:58,920
much sway and just how much they were infiltrating European countries.

557
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:03,119
I mean they were I mean obvious one Spanish Civil War,

558
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,000
but pretty much every country had a communist kind of

559
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:11,640
movement in it. I mean just anyone who's read anything

560
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,839
about nineteen twenties Italy can can see who the anti

561
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:16,640
fascists were.

562
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:22,079
Speaker 2: So yeah, they had a remarkable momentum. I mean both

563
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,680
the terms they're kind of forces and being might not

564
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,400
be the right way to characterize it, but they had

565
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,000
they attrimendous reached, particularly particularly for that that time, you know,

566
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,039
a century ago. It wasn't like today. I mean there was,

567
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:40,079
there was, There was more interdependence than people might think,

568
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:44,559
and especially in Europe. I mean people cross national frontiers

569
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,079
pretty much as a matter of course. You know, it's

570
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:51,680
not like there wasn't. There wasn't this kind of monatic

571
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,720
and celerity to things. But the Communists were very very

572
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,319
good at at political warfare, and they were very good

573
00:31:58,319 --> 00:32:05,480
at at at at a waging political war with this

574
00:32:05,599 --> 00:32:08,920
kind of cadre structure very effectively, even when they didn't

575
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,799
have majorities on the ground or even pluralities. I think

576
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:18,359
part of that ows to the radical commitment to the

577
00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:21,200
people he did have, I think as a force multiplier.

578
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,359
But it's also one of the reasons that there's nulty.

579
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,960
It's not just because I think that he describes the

580
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,680
phenomenon what happened during the war and with with some

581
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,839
of these really brutal, kind of categorically homicidal events, but

582
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,039
he also it can't really be overstated the agree to

583
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:48,960
which communism seemed to have the force of apocaal history

584
00:32:49,319 --> 00:32:53,880
behind it. That's why, like last time you're kind enough

585
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,400
to invite me on the podcast, I made the point

586
00:32:56,519 --> 00:33:01,039
that or you made the point that people like to

587
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:03,400
rate James Burnham over the coals and a lot of

588
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,599
these other political fingers of the era an economists because

589
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:11,960
they talk about they talk about communism like it was

590
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,319
just this perennial thing, and that its victory was imminent.

591
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,880
People weren't saying that because they loved Joseph Stalin or

592
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,640
because they thought communism was great or something. I mean, yeah,

593
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,160
some people thought that way, but it uh, the uh,

594
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:28,400
the nineteen twenty nine collapse, it wasn't just an economic

595
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,640
crisis of the sort that you know, you you deal

596
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,759
with when the world situation isn't is deteriorating, or when

597
00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:38,319
there's some kind of punct weighted shock going to you know,

598
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,279
owing to like you know, shortages or famine or something

599
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:49,880
like happened before. You know, food insecurity got remedied globally

600
00:33:50,119 --> 00:33:53,519
in the fifties and stuff. It was like basically essentially

601
00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:56,359
like the banking structure as it existed at that point failed,

602
00:33:57,279 --> 00:33:59,279
you know, so people like, well, all right, you know,

603
00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:05,400
capitalism and private industry can't deliver it scaled, you know,

604
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,680
it can't provide people they what they need, and there's

605
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,079
too much uncertainty. You know, you can't just leave it

606
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:12,519
in the in the hands of in the perobial hands

607
00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:15,360
of all these you know, discrete decision makers that aren't coordinated.

608
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,239
So this just doesn't work anymore. So some kind of

609
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,320
central planning is going to have to take the place

610
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,559
of the free market. Like everybody thought that way, Like

611
00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:26,440
even right wing guys thought that way, you know, because

612
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,360
what was the alternative? They they they didn't understand. Okay,

613
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:32,920
I mean it wasn't a lot of these guys. It

614
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,840
wasn't that bad faith thing. They just didn't really get

615
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,840
it because in the in the moment, you can't understand

616
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,320
what's happening in historical terms, particularly with something as complex

617
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:47,599
as as twentieth century economics. So that was underway, and

618
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,840
so it says he appeared to everybody like the man

619
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,679
in the European street like this is you know, there's

620
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,800
basically communists at the force of history behind them. You know,

621
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,760
it's almost it's almost like a crusade or some sort

622
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,880
of like fervor that's you know, sweeping millions of people

623
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,320
up in it. So how do we stop this? And

624
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,960
that was that was that, I mean, that was a

625
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,599
big part of the string of Madolf Hitler too, and

626
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:14,840
that that's Stove's point about him being a messianic figure.

627
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,400
You know, then that was a big That's what's fancinating too,

628
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,719
because like people are I'm always taking the issue with

629
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,639
people is say like, well, you know, Hitler was his

630
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:28,400
gutter snipe who just you know, exploited anti Semitism. Hitler

631
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,280
almost never, even in as early as he almost never

632
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,840
mentioned Jews. I can think of two speeches where he

633
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,480
referred to international Jewelry. I can think of another one

634
00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:41,440
where he talked about Jewish bullshitism. But that's it, you like,

635
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,280
he just didn't bring it up, not because he was

636
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,880
afraid of being politically incorrect or upsetting people. But that's

637
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,920
not that just wasn't really his orientation, you know. I mean, yeah,

638
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,519
hilar took for granted that if you were a national socialist,

639
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,199
you viewed Jews as your mortal enemy. But this idea

640
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,239
that you know, Hitler was getting people cluding to his

641
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,559
program and cited by talking about Jews, like, that's not true.

642
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,119
I mean, I guess you could turn on say this

643
00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:07,320
because it would have been redundant, because everybody understood he

644
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:13,440
was talking about Okay, but you know, the the uh,

645
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,320
the kind of a the kind of shared premises that

646
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,960
people were responding to with with with what he was

647
00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:25,199
presenting to them, had to do with he he made

648
00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:27,480
them believe that they weren't inevitably going to be swept

649
00:36:27,519 --> 00:36:31,400
up in this kind of mass homicidal like workers revolt

650
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,599
that then was just gonna kind of transform everything into

651
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:38,840
this sort of you know, this sort of giant like

652
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,400
labor camp that were you know, the trappings of national

653
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,679
life and and social capital have been kind of stripped away,

654
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,920
and you know, things have been kind of just like

655
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,960
reduced at bear survival. And if you weren't privileged within

656
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,960
the administration at that new regime, you know, you just

657
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:58,119
were kind of gonna live a pointless life of relative deprivation.

658
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,079
You're the only consolation being that, you know, you'd be

659
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:03,519
assured that if you were politically reliable, you wouldn't starve

660
00:37:03,679 --> 00:37:06,320
or not at housing or something. I mean, that's that's

661
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,559
really what was underway. And if people don't believe me

662
00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:13,039
on that Irid Oral was nineteen eighty four like that,

663
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:16,360
that's that's basically that you know, but name that's a

664
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,119
that's a stalinist dystopia that a guy who came of

665
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:21,199
age in the epoch like that was the big fear

666
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,840
of every European including you know, even even middle class

667
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,480
Tory types like mister orwell, Okay, so I mean that's

668
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,599
this wasn't this like weird thing that paranoid artists, you know,

669
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,320
self felt shaman. Mister Hitler just kind of came up

670
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,400
with so that that I can't really emphasize that enough.

671
00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: You mentioned orwell, and I mentioned the Spanish Civil War?

672
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,599
Speaker 2: So howmedy Catalonia?

673
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:54,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the okay, So nineteen thirty two and nineteen thirty

674
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:58,280
three we have the election of two people who will

675
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:04,039
fundamentally dick tate what the next even what we're dealing

676
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:08,519
with today. So Hitler comes to power and the King

677
00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:12,800
for Life FDR comes to power. Yeah, and from what

678
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:20,599
I understand, mister FDR was not exactly He wasn't averse

679
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,000
to what Mussolini or what Hitler we're talking about in

680
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:27,719
the UH in their respective countries, was he.

681
00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:32,639
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Roosevelt still no, I like I've uh

682
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:37,440
you know, like I said before, uh last time we

683
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:43,000
uh we were discussing the twentieth century. The one of

684
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:45,559
the reasons I like Thomas Fleming not not the Rockford

685
00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:47,960
Institute guy. For clarity, if people aren't familiar with the

686
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,239
other Thomas Fleming, he was this East Coast Irish guy,

687
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,800
and we're not gonna hold it against him that he's

688
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,400
irish because he was a really good author. But he uh,

689
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,039
he was this independent scholar story and he he he

690
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,039
wrote kind of the seven or critical biography of of

691
00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:06,760
Roosevelt as well as of the of the UH, the

692
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,159
the Roosevelt administration called the New Dealers War, and like

693
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,159
hap Arnold helped him write it. Like all these personages, uh,

694
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,840
some of whom were Roosevelt's allies, some of whom were

695
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,079
his enemies, you know, guys in the in in the

696
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:22,599
diplomat and guys in the State Department, guys in the

697
00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:25,079
military apparatus, you know, then War department. You know, he

698
00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:27,199
had he had access to all this direct testimony and

699
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:31,800
all these documents. But his core uh, I mean, obviously

700
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,960
he's got nothing nice to say about Roosevelt. But his

701
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:38,239
core thesis, the brass tacks of it is is what

702
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,559
I said last time, that the New Deal regime was

703
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:47,800
as much of was as much a revolutionary paradigm as

704
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,880
UH implemented in Berlin and and what Stalin did in

705
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,559
the Soviet Union. And it's foreign policy, Like you better

706
00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,920
believe that Roosevelt basically is raised on detro was to

707
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,760
what you know, what was to implement in a progressive socialist,

708
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:11,360
an anti fascist political order, you know, and I kind

709
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,320
of ground up, you know, restructuring socially and politically and ultimately,

710
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,440
I mean it's great foreign policy coup was you know,

711
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,400
the destruction of Germany and the destruction of fascism. That

712
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,519
was its whole raise on Vetro, just as much as

713
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:26,000
Hitler's raised on Detro was to smash Bolshevism. And that's

714
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:28,599
I'll make the point again and again if you want

715
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:34,559
to understand not just not just Hitler, but the uh

716
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,519
the but like his orientation towards history. The last, the

717
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:44,639
last real speet before the Reichstag that Hitler made was

718
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,679
the December eleventh, ninety one speech, but since incidentally, was

719
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,400
also the formal declaration of war against the United States.

720
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,679
And Hitler didn't talk about Stalin in it at all.

721
00:40:55,039 --> 00:40:58,079
Like you mentioned communism, he didn't mention Stalin. He mentioned

722
00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:01,320
Churchill very fleetingly and kind of, you know, in kind

723
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,039
of a condescending way. He talked about Roosevelt. He did

724
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:08,559
two things. He identified. He was he talked about the

725
00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:14,199
situation in the east where the assault on Moscow was

726
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:18,239
was halt was being halted, and which in my opinion

727
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,480
was what the side of the war. But he said

728
00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:25,239
Hitler said two things. He said, well, you know this

729
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,519
is this is this isn't an He's like, we've been

730
00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,440
through this before in eighteen thirteen. Now when he said

731
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,559
we okay. In eighteen thirteen, Prussia was fighting along with

732
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,280
Napoleon in the in the Russian Empire, and Prussia was

733
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,159
the only German state that went to war on Napoleon's side.

734
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,039
So Hitler, the Habsburg Catholic, was basically saying, we the

735
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:50,519
German people are the Prussian legacy state. And that's fascinating.

736
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,920
And it's keen understanding Hitler and why why everybody was

737
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,760
okay with him, you know, from his own kind of

738
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,519
tried you know, the the Bavarian Munich types as well

739
00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:07,559
as you know, the Prussian officer types and everybody else.

740
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:09,519
That's key, and that wasn't Hitler actually believed that that

741
00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:14,679
wasn't an affectation or something. But secondly, what Hitler said

742
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,360
was he said, you know, this was a European war

743
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,119
and it did not have to be a global war.

744
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:24,079
And basically, mister Roosevelt, we tried to come to terms

745
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:27,559
with with with America over and over again, you know,

746
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:30,960
and there was no reason. We have no interest in

747
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,840
common with America. We have also no conflicts with them

748
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,639
in common, you know, basically, like why is you know,

749
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,159
Roosevelt basically is forcing us to fight America. And that's

750
00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:46,039
actually true. You can claim that, you know, well, Germans

751
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:48,519
are evil and Hitler's an evil man. So I think

752
00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:51,079
it's good that America went to war with Germany. And

753
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,719
I mean that you can, okay, I mean that if

754
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,559
that's your position, that's fine, But so aligned with the

755
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:03,199
Soviet Union and resulting Germany, and make the mistake. Uh,

756
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,760
September eleventh, the nineteen forty one, that was the other

757
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:12,360
September eleventh, that's when Roosevelt declared unrestricted naval war against

758
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,000
all German flag military vessels. I mean, like America went

759
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,440
to war with Germany long before there was ever a

760
00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:21,280
German war declaration, long before there was ever Pearl Harbor,

761
00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:26,400
you know, And that was that didn't make any sense strategically,

762
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,119
you know, it was it was an ideological political decision,

763
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:33,719
you know. So it's that's that's the key takeaway it on.

764
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,400
But I wrote some law and form on this too.

765
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,920
I mean, if you want to understand if you want

766
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,679
to understand hitlerver is a stalin. Yeah, there's a man

767
00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:46,840
a key in aspect to that, and it's almost it's

768
00:43:47,559 --> 00:43:51,079
you know, it's almost kind of mythical. And the enmity

769
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:54,960
between UH, Germany and the Russian people is really horrible

770
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:56,880
and tragic. I'm not like making a light of that,

771
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,159
but you know, the Germans in the Eastern slot, that's

772
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:02,719
gonna fight, like even absent bullshitism, like that's just something

773
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,960
that's going to happen. Hitler's real kind of ideological nemesis

774
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,920
was rose developed because again, like there there wasn't any

775
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,079
reason for America to fight Germany other than the fact

776
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:18,440
that Roosevelopt and his and his patrons UH slated Germany

777
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,199
for annihilation. And I mean in political terms, I mean

778
00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:25,639
that's the definition of enmity. You know, it a man

779
00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:30,519
you don't have any objective strategic conflict with that's forcing

780
00:44:30,519 --> 00:44:34,119
you with you know, in the confrontation. It's quite literally,

781
00:44:34,199 --> 00:44:36,880
you know, he slated you for destruction for some ideological

782
00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:41,079
commitment or reason. So yeah, that's an important Uh, that's

783
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:46,079
an important point. And everybody, you know, when when in

784
00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:49,440
talking about Hitler and his intentions. You know. It's it's

785
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,400
kind of like people are constantly talking about what's in

786
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,519
the Constitution or what's in the Bible, but they never

787
00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:55,920
ever read either, so they don't actually know. Like people

788
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,239
always talking about like things Hitler said and didn't thought,

789
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,280
but they never actually bother or read things he said,

790
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,039
you know. And it's David Irving made the point that,

791
00:45:06,519 --> 00:45:08,800
you know, Hitler was a very rare political figure the

792
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,840
twenty twentieth century because he basically did everything you said.

793
00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:14,599
You know, he didn't really have a filter for better

794
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:19,159
or worse. So it's the there's there's you know, he

795
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,920
was pretty it's pretty above board if you want to

796
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:26,199
like trace Hitler's strategic decisions as well as uh his

797
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,360
political sensibilities, because he said these things in public, you know,

798
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,800
with without his exceptions of things that you know, required

799
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,679
secrecy in order to succeed. But you know, there wasn't

800
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,719
this wasn't some like secret program or something. Or there's

801
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,519
there's not there's not some complexity to I mean, yeah,

802
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:43,440
there's a lot of complexities laid off Hitler, but there's

803
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,960
not there's there's not some there's not some great mystery

804
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:50,840
to or alledger name or you know what what what

805
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,840
what his political commitments were and what he wanted to accomplish.

806
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:55,440
So yeah, I think that's important too.

807
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: Well, what I was saying about FDR is it's not

808
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,920
a his secret that a lot of people who are

809
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,199
around him have said after that that through the thirties,

810
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,760
when the German economy was seemingly doing very well, that

811
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,039
he looked upon it. And you know, as he's doing

812
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,480
the new Deal, which as he's putting together a new

813
00:46:17,519 --> 00:46:22,239
deal and just passing all these laws, all these what

814
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,480
do they call those things that presidents just right executive

815
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:29,519
or yeah, like three thousand of them or four thousand,

816
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:34,199
I think that he was looking and he was like, well,

817
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,559
if if they have a managed economy over there, we

818
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:39,559
can have a mind managed economy here.

819
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,679
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was we part of it. And Adam

820
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:45,559
Two's he's a really interesting guy. He's an economic historian,

821
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,639
and this uh that those guys tend to be really brainy.

822
00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:55,679
I mean, like economics is, uh, if you can write

823
00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:57,559
in an economic history, have any modern state. I mean

824
00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:59,920
that that's just like a kind of a lebon task.

825
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:02,760
But he I don't really know what tuss politics are.

826
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,119
I mean I'm sure, I'm sure they probably I probably

827
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:06,559
would not see the eye eye to eye with him.

828
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,679
He's like a typical kind of British university type guy.

829
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,159
But you wrote a book that's a history of the

830
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,760
the Third Rug economy called The Wages of Destruction. That's

831
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,320
a really exhausting book and it's got a huge amount

832
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:23,840
of data and uh, yeah, the U if you want

833
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,960
to understand uh, if you want to understand national social's economics,

834
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,360
I mean it's basically it's basically traditional you know Hamilton

835
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,719
Frederick Wist kind of stuff. I mean with you know,

836
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,400
with a with a with a with a with a

837
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,880
bias for heavy industry and and and mass subsidies, the

838
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,440
that that that privileges terrestrial man you know, heavy terrestrial

839
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,920
manufacturing over other sectors. But I mean that's the German

840
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,280
economy today is not really radically different. I mean, we

841
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,719
we'd uh it's a stupid term. But with economists in

842
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,760
the eightieses the twelve quote picking winners and losers like that,

843
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,239
you know that the German economy is a lot more

844
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,400
like that of Japan than it is like America or

845
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,119
the UK. That's why this name. There's a fast thing,

846
00:48:08,159 --> 00:48:10,760
one of these like Goldman Sex losers after a after

847
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,679
awake he uh he he dropped. It was in that

848
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,000
he was. It was not Rolling Stone piece by Matt

849
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,320
Tybee or Tavy or what the fuck he pronounce his name,

850
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,639
And it was like Goldman sachs Rapp. He shows up

851
00:48:26,679 --> 00:48:28,840
in Berlin in like two thousand and five or something,

852
00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:32,440
and he starts like making his pitch, you know, and

853
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:35,559
uh about uh you know, basically trying to turn these

854
00:48:35,599 --> 00:48:42,079
German firms onto onto uh you know, uh, binding up

855
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:45,800
their pension system with you know, Goldman Sex for one

856
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,199
k's or something. And like, I guess these these these Germans.

857
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,719
Let me laugh at him. We're like, look, get out here.

858
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,679
You know, we don't we don't invest in derivatives, you

859
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,719
know what I mean, So that that sensibility remains, but

860
00:48:56,159 --> 00:49:01,079
it uh yeah, that's what that's what that that that's

861
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:05,880
exactly what uh what Roosevelt did, and that I mean,

862
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,159
but it's also too I mean, people, you know, the

863
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:10,719
New Deal didn't actually accomplish anything I mean in terms,

864
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,280
I mean politically, it got Roosevelt everything you wanted, and

865
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,400
they didn't share shaking consequences. But basically it's you know,

866
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,920
Roosevelt didn't do it. Rosevel didn't stimulate you as economy

867
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,320
you're like breathing new blood into it. Or and he's not.

868
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,360
It's not you know, Roosevelt's administration before ninety forty one

869
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,639
isn't some isn't some testament to how you know, isn't

870
00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:34,360
some testament to you know, to how demand side paradigms

871
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:38,639
work are true? It all he did, he he he

872
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,719
literally put people to work digging holes for no reason

873
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:45,760
and essentially paying I mean governments in food stamps, you know,

874
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,440
so that you didn't have you didn't have unemployed guys

875
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,159
milling about, you know, every in the middle of the street,

876
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,800
you know, begging for food or something like. And you

877
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,000
didn't you didn't have riots because people you know, people

878
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,360
couldn't buy a loaf of bread because there was no

879
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,119
work to be had. You know. It was that, That's

880
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:06,039
what it was. I looked down the street from Skoque Lagoons,

881
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,480
which is a big nature breserve, and like, don't me wrong,

882
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,440
it's pretty dope. But like you know what skogy La

883
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:13,719
Goons is. It's this giant it's these giant man made

884
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,599
lakes just like down the street and from me that

885
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,840
Roosevelt had a bunch of guys digging for no reasons

886
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,239
that he could like you know, basically give him food stamps.

887
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,000
I mean that that's why it's there.

888
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: Wow.

889
00:50:26,119 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's what the Snowy Conference kind of the

890
00:50:28,519 --> 00:50:32,599
c c C was like in other states, you'll come

891
00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:35,239
across stuff like that. I mean, Skugu La goons is uh,

892
00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:41,239
it's it's more. Uh, it's it's it's more. It's more

893
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,239
scale than a lot of these things. But you'll come

894
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,559
across stuff like that. You know, these these kinds of

895
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,039
nature preserved things and these kinds of these kinds of

896
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:54,559
uh you know, like man made lakes or whatever, and

897
00:50:54,599 --> 00:50:56,559
there'll be some plaque or something saying like yeah, don't

898
00:50:56,599 --> 00:50:59,559
by like the Civilian Conservation Corps you know of Oklahoma

899
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:02,559
and like then thirty five. So I mean that's just

900
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:04,239
like a side point. But I come back with it.

901
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,599
I think they teach like I did. People who have kids,

902
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:08,880
like teenagers, and like when they ask me stuff like

903
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,639
they're you know, their teenage son or dar will be

904
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,199
like but yeah, you know, like in like tenth grade

905
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,800
public school whatever. They told me that, like you know,

906
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:18,840
because Roosevelt, you know, put people to work and then

907
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,400
you know, let's saved's economy. It's like, no, that doesn't

908
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,800
happen if I pay you to dig a hole and

909
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,159
give you food stamps. I'm paying you to dig a

910
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:27,679
hole and giving your food stamps. I'm not. I'm not.

911
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,119
I'm not breathing new life into I'm not. I'm not creating,

912
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,400
you know, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not stimulating. I'm

913
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,960
not stimating the national economy through its centives. But I mean,

914
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:41,440
I don't know, Thank god, I haven't set foot in

915
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,599
the public school in decades, but I gleaned that that

916
00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:46,159
is what is underway. I don't have kids on my own,

917
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,159
but I I mean, I like young people anyway. But

918
00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:51,400
I also kind of us also kind of use them

919
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,639
as like human intelligence. So I like, what what's happened

920
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,199
is like what's happening you know, you know, and inbo

921
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,559
schools and stuff. I mean, I'm only yeah kidding, like

922
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:07,159
I actually do. But yeah, that that to your point.

923
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,840
If if Roosevelt had been anything all other than this

924
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,480
kind of crazy zionist guy, who would you know, look

925
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,679
who wanted to you know, destroy Europe and alliance at Moscow.

926
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,199
If it was something like you know, if it was

927
00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:24,679
something like America first guy, you'd been like undertaking these

928
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,679
these kinds of steps ruled by ruling, by executive order

929
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,119
and kind of you know, uh, situating himself as like

930
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,559
a law and to himself. Yeah, people with people would

931
00:52:33,559 --> 00:52:35,800
have gone crazy then, and they even today, they'd be

932
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,480
they'd be acting like he was maybe acting like he

933
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:43,000
was Darth Vader or something. So yeah, I mean absolutely.

934
00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: Look at the way they treat the Santus in Florida.

935
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,039
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly like the s and and unlike mister

936
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:52,440
Roosevelt is saying it doesn't make people arrested who disagree

937
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,400
with him. But yeah, so.

938
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:02,119
Speaker 1: In the thirties, who were who were Germany's biggest allies.

939
00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:10,599
Speaker 2: I would say, I mean it's a complicated situation because

940
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,119
prior to I mean, obviously you've got to look at

941
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:21,880
Germany and Austria as one as one political culture. I'm

942
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,760
not saying that like that. I'm not saying that that

943
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,280
like Austrians can't think of themselves that there's not things

944
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,440
unique too, you know, I mean Austria is very different

945
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,880
than Germany proper, Okay, but it The reason why the

946
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,840
Absolutz was able to go off out a hitch was

947
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,480
uh was because of what I just said it uh

948
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:47,559
and instead of that, really I after after the after, after,

949
00:53:48,119 --> 00:53:52,800
after Dolphins was murdered, and after Hitler kind of smoothed

950
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,440
over that potential in house crisis that that could have

951
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,719
caused Mussolini, and the can said, the bigges sension get

952
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,199
a Mussolini was he he offered him the Tyrol region,

953
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,920
which was a huge that that was that was unprecedent,

954
00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:10,800
especially for I mean, Hillary supposed is a huge German nationalists.

955
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,360
He basically you know, he handed he handed German speaking

956
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,760
lands over to Italy, and that quite literally outright as

957
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:21,719
a concession. So from like thirty six thirty seven onward,

958
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,519
it would it would it would be Italy. And I'm

959
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:28,559
of the belief that Romania was the first and foremost

960
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:34,400
uh Germany's best ally. They they they they committed a

961
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,199
huge contingent of men in scale terms to uh the

962
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,280
Eastern Front. And Uh anton Escu, Uh you know, he

963
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,639
was the uh he was the Marshal of Romania. I Antonescu,

964
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,039
he was a holder of the knights Cross and and

965
00:54:50,119 --> 00:54:52,719
just a real badass but also he uh, he really

966
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,800
had Hitler's back and vice versa, and people, you know,

967
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:02,320
Romania was essential too, because Barbarosa was staged essentially from

968
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,559
Romania in key ways. If if you understand how thing's

969
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:09,800
broke down in terms of deployment and things, you understand that. So,

970
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,840
I mean, Romania's not Romania is not just just like insignificant,

971
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,239
dumb little country or whatever people think. It's situated in

972
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,119
a way that's key. And I mean that's also why

973
00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:21,519
that's such a strange regime during the Cold War and stuff.

974
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:23,920
I mean that's like outsaid the scope we're talking about here.

975
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I lived there for a little while. It's

976
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,400
that's awesome. Yeah it's a strange, like I've never been there.

977
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,400
But if Romania kind of fascinating, Oh no, you'd love that.

978
00:55:35,519 --> 00:55:37,480
You love buch a good time.

979
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 2: I'm sure they got they got really really pretty ladies.

980
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:42,360
And uh, it's a it's a weird collision of like

981
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,840
crazy Slavic ship and crazy Latin stuff. And then that's

982
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:49,360
I just think that's really cool. Maybe it's kind of

983
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,679
like a square Protestant guy or something. Look, yeah, I

984
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,119
that that's that's freaking awesome. I like, I genuine want

985
00:55:55,119 --> 00:55:58,119
to hear about that sometimes it but yeah, so I

986
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,599
I mean forgive the tangent, but yeah, I mean Italy

987
00:56:01,599 --> 00:56:04,280
because it goes out saying and yeah, i'd say Romania

988
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,480
for not just because the Romanians were like, we're like

989
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:15,239
very very committed to the program. But uh, Antonesco himself

990
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,400
was uh. I mean, he was just an honorable guy

991
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,559
and like I said, a real badass, but he he

992
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,280
just really had Hitler's back, and Mussolini did too. I mean,

993
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,320
Mussolini is a guy. Mussolini had a lot of flaws,

994
00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:33,519
and I think Mussolini, like Lenin was Uh. I think

995
00:56:33,519 --> 00:56:35,360
he was kind of a master intriguer and kind of

996
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:39,039
a political genius. And in terms of, you know, as

997
00:56:39,039 --> 00:56:42,039
a political soldier, I mean, I don't think he was

998
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:45,119
really I don't think he was cut out for uh,

999
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,920
you know, gross warm politique if we can look at

1000
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:54,639
it that way. He just wasn't. But I think, you know,

1001
00:56:55,679 --> 00:56:58,679
I know, Musolena said degenerate have it's I know he

1002
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,639
was a big womanizer and kind of a sex fiend,

1003
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,559
and he he he whacked his own son in law,

1004
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:05,639
you know, Count Chiano. I don't I don't think that's

1005
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,599
a great thing to do. I mean, that's that's like

1006
00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:10,920
crazy Labin stuff, I guess. But I'm not saying that

1007
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,519
to be mean or prejudice, but.

1008
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,159
Speaker 1: But it's it's also, like you said in a recent

1009
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:20,440
episode of Yours, Mussolini had this swagger about him.

1010
00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did a ge.

1011
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,159
Speaker 1: Smell about him. He had a you the average man

1012
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:29,320
in the street probably believed that Mussolini could kick his ass. Yeah,

1013
00:57:29,559 --> 00:57:31,800
that's true. But Hitler didn't have that.

1014
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: No, No, Hitler was Uh. That's why Hitler Hussolini are

1015
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,199
kind of It's it's odd that they became like personally

1016
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:42,960
really tight because they weren't similar kinds of men, you know,

1017
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,639
like Hitler was this Uh, Hitler was actually I mean,

1018
00:57:45,719 --> 00:57:48,039
Hitler was like a tense guy, but he was very subdued,

1019
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,920
you know when he Hitler when he he'd never Hitler

1020
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,159
made the point he didn't like wearing a uniform. Sometimes

1021
00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:57,239
he felt he was necessary, particularly during you know, like

1022
00:57:57,239 --> 00:58:00,960
the revolutionary phased aniately after, but Hitler were just you know,

1023
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,679
a well tailored but modest suit, you know, and he'd

1024
00:58:04,679 --> 00:58:07,599
wear u he'd wear his iron cross for his class,

1025
00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:11,000
but and his party Lapel like his party badge, you know,

1026
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:14,440
and he didn't uh you know Hitler, you know, yeah,

1027
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,440
he had Avia Bram who was very beautiful and a

1028
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,280
lot younger than him, but you know she was his

1029
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,320
only girl, like he didn't you know, yeah, he was uh,

1030
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:26,880
he was very very different than Mussolini. There was but

1031
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:28,920
I mean it's straight like men have become friends. It's

1032
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,360
kind of strange. I mean, like there's guys that you

1033
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,760
wouldn't think would would become such close allies than they do.

1034
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,920
But I think that's the case with Hitler and Mussolini.

1035
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,199
But it's all Hitler took great risks, including you know,

1036
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,480
deploying Scorseney to bail Mussolini out, like literally to spring

1037
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:47,119
him from that the Alpine h redocks where he was

1038
00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:50,840
being imprisoned. I mean, I like Hitler the other because

1039
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:54,280
you know, owing to either his his his kind of

1040
00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:00,719
a sensibility as a combat veteran NCO were or just

1041
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,760
as a political soldier, you know, hilar a lot of

1042
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,079
his decisions were informed by his personal loyalties. But Antonescu,

1043
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,039
Hillar and Antonescue like they were personally tight, but it's

1044
00:59:11,079 --> 00:59:16,679
also they Antonescu was a great ally and and yeah

1045
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:18,800
that that's a point that should be fleshed out more.

1046
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:23,480
And the Romanians actually fought. They fought really hard. I

1047
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:26,000
mean they and they got they got decimated, you know,

1048
00:59:26,079 --> 00:59:29,920
they they h it's not you know, the Romanian army

1049
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,800
is not like it something like storied for us. But

1050
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:37,079
they they had a until they got chewed to pieces.

1051
00:59:39,119 --> 00:59:42,159
They in ninety forty one, early ninety forty two, the

1052
00:59:42,159 --> 00:59:44,840
the Romanians did really well. I mean for that, I

1053
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:46,719
mean as well as gonna be expected. You know, they didn't.

1054
00:59:47,679 --> 00:59:51,960
They were at certain disadvantages, but they you know, it's uh,

1055
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,719
it's not it's no small thing. Croatia was a great

1056
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,960
ally in Germany too, and then and the cross Uh,

1057
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:04,559
you know, the crawatz uh Man for Man were probably

1058
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:09,800
the best uh like minor access nations soldiers. The crawad

1059
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,760
uh the Crows were incorporate, the Croats were incorporated into

1060
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,679
the into the here like officially they weren't. They weren't

1061
01:00:16,719 --> 01:00:21,719
like they weren't Bob and s s or some kind

1062
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,280
of auxiliary formation. And uh, they they were the only

1063
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:27,360
non German, they were the only non German element that

1064
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,800
breached the gates at Stalingrad, you know, like uh and

1065
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,400
they they they were they were super tough, but uh

1066
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:42,480
and yeah, uh Pavolic was a was a. It was

1067
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,039
a rare example too of uh like independent State of

1068
01:00:45,039 --> 01:00:48,000
Croatia and like the USTA, they really were like like

1069
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:50,519
a client regime of the Third Reich, and that was rare.

1070
01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:53,519
You know, like if people notice that, you know, the

1071
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,719
like Berlin and and the SD and and uh, they

1072
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:02,000
they part clearly Himmler he was always trying to kind

1073
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:06,039
of insinuate these like proxy sort of parties, even ones

1074
01:01:06,039 --> 01:01:08,280
that didn't really have any on the ground support, and

1075
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,760
Hitler was like, no, we're not gonna do that. To

1076
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:16,800
the point, speaking of Romania, you know the uh Antonescue himself,

1077
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:18,400
he's the one who put down you know, the Iron

1078
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:23,360
Guard revolt and probably personally ordered uh Kodriano to be murdered.

1079
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,719
And like the SS though was uh they were inviting

1080
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,440
aid and comfort to these Iron Guard guys. Meanwhile, Berlin's

1081
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,679
policy was, you know that these guys are like enemies

1082
01:01:31,679 --> 01:01:34,400
of the state. So you had like you had like

1083
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,119
Berlin and the German Army saying you're doing one thing.

1084
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:39,079
Then in the S s saying like, no, these guys

1085
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:41,079
you're like arresting and himage shot or are guys and

1086
01:01:41,239 --> 01:01:45,000
helping them, so which is really crazy. But by the

1087
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,400
point being independent state of Croatia is it's a rare

1088
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,840
example of them, and that that owes the intrigues of

1089
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,400
uh what happened uh in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and

1090
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,719
and what amount to do a kind of chit nik

1091
01:01:58,719 --> 01:02:02,280
coup and all but name on the eve of Barbarossa.

1092
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,079
But it Yeah, so Croatia was a was a rare

1093
01:02:05,239 --> 01:02:08,679
uh kind of like true like client regime of a

1094
01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:13,719
national of a fascist or fascist type country. So yeah,

1095
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,119
forgive me if that was like too tangential.

1096
01:02:16,119 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: No, no problem, I want to wait until the next

1097
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,360
time we talked to actually get into the war. But

1098
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,679
one thing, one thing I wanted to ask was was

1099
01:02:26,719 --> 01:02:31,079
it because of American influence or was it because of

1100
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:36,159
Soviet influence that he didn't have more European countries that

1101
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,639
he could consider to be allies, because I mean, Spain

1102
01:02:40,079 --> 01:02:43,480
seems like it could be a natural ally, especially at

1103
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:43,920
that point.

1104
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, the both cells Are and Franco were intriguing for

1105
01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:52,000
their own purposes. I mean, I think Franco is kind

1106
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,159
of an idiot, unlike sellas Are. I think was U

1107
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:56,119
was a great man in a lot of ways, and

1108
01:02:56,199 --> 01:02:59,599
cells are there's nothing all cells Are could do rather

1109
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:01,480
than kind of like trying to strike this tense like

1110
01:03:01,679 --> 01:03:04,320
middle path between you know, the British Empire, the third

1111
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,760
right elite. But Frank Franco I think was a the

1112
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:13,119
fucking moron and he uh, you know, Franco. But Franco

1113
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:15,800
is a great survivor, and up touse men often are

1114
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,920
good at surviving even if they're you know, kind of

1115
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:23,360
not good and much else. But the way I understand

1116
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,559
Franco is that the real like the Falangists who were

1117
01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:29,519
real like harden Vast national socialists or fascists, uh you know,

1118
01:03:29,639 --> 01:03:33,679
he he he sent them off to fight the Soviet

1119
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,360
unions that they were out of Spain and hopefully wouldn't

1120
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,800
come back. And that's kind of what happened. But it

1121
01:03:39,599 --> 01:03:43,079
you know, Frank people, uh you know, France actually was

1122
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:45,960
a fascist state like and that would like they were,

1123
01:03:46,199 --> 01:03:50,880
you know, organically like they that's why people communiately forget that,

1124
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,280
you know, an operating torch and American troops landed in

1125
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,239
North Africa. It was they were opposed by France who

1126
01:03:56,239 --> 01:04:00,400
fought them, Okay, like and uh, Commandant Darlin new I

1127
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,280
think Roosevelt probably had murdered you know. Uh that was

1128
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,639
uh basically Roosevelt was faced. So they ha going to

1129
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:11,119
try and bribe Darlin into like quitting the war. I mean,

1130
01:04:11,199 --> 01:04:13,280
like the fact that France fought Germany. They fought that

1131
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:14,840
they fought Germany beau they didn't want to be under

1132
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,440
Berlin's dominion like they were. They were fascists basically, you know,

1133
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,079
like a third like it, about about a third of

1134
01:04:22,159 --> 01:04:24,239
France were rads and they like refused to fight. But

1135
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,800
it you know, the idea that the other that the

1136
01:04:27,159 --> 01:04:30,199
quote VC regime was like this total total contrivance is

1137
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,559
not true. It's complicated by the fact they were under occupation.

1138
01:04:34,719 --> 01:04:38,679
But you know, I I think, I mean, I've thought

1139
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:40,679
a lot about that too, I mean to your point

1140
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:45,400
about uh why uh, but I mean Hitler specifically said,

1141
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,480
you know, there was there was a meeting of of

1142
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,760
of of what was supposed to be a fascist international

1143
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,920
of sorts, I think in nineteen thirty six, but I

1144
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,760
have to double check it, and I cannot remember what

1145
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:02,360
the host venue was. But uh, it didn't really go

1146
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,960
anywhere because again the you know that there was no

1147
01:05:05,079 --> 01:05:08,960
National Socialist delegation and without a Berlin delegation representing Hitler,

1148
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:11,960
it was kind of like a big whatever. But it

1149
01:05:12,119 --> 01:05:18,519
uh I it uh. Hitler himself always made the point that,

1150
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,719
you know, I mean that's when I made the point

1151
01:05:20,719 --> 01:05:23,079
about the independent State of Croatia, because Hillar himself said that,

1152
01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:27,159
you know, the the National Socialist program in paradigm, it's

1153
01:05:27,239 --> 01:05:30,519
it's not this ideology that is intended to be exported

1154
01:05:30,559 --> 01:05:33,320
as some sort of you know, it's some sort of

1155
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:39,239
answer to to Bolshevism or something, and that's important. I mean,

1156
01:05:39,239 --> 01:05:43,159
I think Hitler did pretty I think Hiller did pretty well.

1157
01:05:43,199 --> 01:05:45,079
I mean I uh in terms of in terms of

1158
01:05:45,079 --> 01:05:52,519
wooing allies, it uh he uh people uh in some

1159
01:05:52,559 --> 01:05:56,400
of these smaller states, uh, you know, you know it's

1160
01:05:56,639 --> 01:05:59,920
father Tiso and Slovakia. You know, Tisa was this kind

1161
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:01,719
of uh, I guess what most people would considered to

1162
01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:04,159
be like a clerical fascist type. You know, that was

1163
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:05,719
like the big that was that was that was the

1164
01:06:05,719 --> 01:06:08,960
big coup against Benice is that you know, Czechoslovakia wasn't

1165
01:06:09,639 --> 01:06:11,840
it wasn't just it wasn't dismantled him out by the

1166
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:15,440
by the cruel machinations that evil harr Hitler. You know,

1167
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,639
the as soon as the as soon as the Slovakians

1168
01:06:17,639 --> 01:06:19,760
like saw the opportunity, they declared in the penance, They're like,

1169
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,519
we've got no truck with Zenter price. Zechoslovakia is a contrivance.

1170
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:26,280
And Tisa was very much on board with the third right,

1171
01:06:27,119 --> 01:06:30,960
and simply because I mean Hillar made his case effectively

1172
01:06:31,039 --> 01:06:36,079
and and uh and managing evince uh, managing convince him

1173
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:41,320
of of of victory odds. So I mean, I think

1174
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,079
it's uh, but it's also you gotta the Europe, Europe

1175
01:06:45,159 --> 01:06:48,760
kind of orbits around I mean the whole Europe, orbits

1176
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,440
around Berlin, I mean kind of geo strategically as well

1177
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,519
as conceptually. I mean I think that's I think that's

1178
01:06:55,559 --> 01:06:59,760
part of it. I mean I think Hitler understood, you know,

1179
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,440
I mean basically basically, people even people who didn't particularly

1180
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,599
fancy taking standing orders from Berlin. I mean, it was

1181
01:07:07,639 --> 01:07:10,760
understood that like well, I mean, and you know, what

1182
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,880
happens in Berlin has got ramifications throughout the continent, and

1183
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,679
you know the kind of that that's that's kind of

1184
01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:21,239
the the heart of political life. So I think that's

1185
01:07:21,239 --> 01:07:22,719
part of it too. It was just understand, you know,

1186
01:07:23,719 --> 01:07:26,159
let's say, if you know, let's say in this in

1187
01:07:26,239 --> 01:07:28,679
autumn or December ninety forty one, you know, let's say

1188
01:07:28,679 --> 01:07:33,960
Moscow did fall, and you know, NCIG was realized. It's like, okay,

1189
01:07:34,079 --> 01:07:37,039
I whether people were at you know, whether they were

1190
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:39,280
in Prague or whether they were in Paris, or whether

1191
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:45,199
they were in Madrid or in uh, you know, wherever

1192
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:47,159
they were, I think I would to say, like, well, okay,

1193
01:07:47,199 --> 01:07:49,360
you know this is this is this is kind of

1194
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:54,760
the new political culture. So that's you know, we'll abide that.

1195
01:07:55,360 --> 01:08:02,639
I think that's why it h that. Uh. Also, I

1196
01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:05,639
mean I I I really like, I really like new

1197
01:08:05,639 --> 01:08:09,840
To Hampson. You know, he was the Norwegian bother. He

1198
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,639
was like this agrarian, romantic type guy. He wrote a

1199
01:08:12,639 --> 01:08:16,199
book Growth of the Soil, which is a really great book,

1200
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:18,279
as well as aut of Hunger, which is kind of

1201
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:24,359
a auto biographical take of his early life. As you know,

1202
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:26,640
like he was literally kind of like a starving author.

1203
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:30,960
But uh, Hampson made the point. Uh. He wrote a

1204
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:35,760
eulogy to Hitler when after the forty five and you

1205
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:37,560
know there there was there was a million. There was

1206
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,279
a million, quite literally a million, like in one point

1207
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:44,359
one million foreign volunteers and then ss you know, from

1208
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,319
from all nations, from Ukraine to the Netherlands to Belgium

1209
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:53,359
to Spain, the you know, it's it really was like

1210
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:59,720
this in European army. And these guys weren't conscripted a

1211
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,680
gun point or something. I mean, you know, I so

1212
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:04,840
I think there was I think I think there was

1213
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:06,960
more of a pan European the leagues.

1214
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:13,520
Speaker 1: Was that because of anti American sentiment or anti Soviet sentiment, I.

1215
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:17,039
Speaker 2: Mean primarily the latter. I think people outside of the

1216
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:19,520
Germans understood that they were in big trouble with regards

1217
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:24,199
to Roosevelt because he was targeting them for destruction. I speculate,

1218
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:28,920
and I think it's pretty well substantiated by kind of

1219
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:32,520
statements of other of other chief executives at the time

1220
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,520
in Europe, I think America wasn't really on people's radar

1221
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:42,479
in the same way in a prior to the Cold

1222
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,560
War and prior to the kind of you know, destruction

1223
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,199
of Europe and it's dimming up between the super powers.

1224
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:52,920
If if you were, unless you were situated in the

1225
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:59,079
UK or in Germany, if if you were a European

1226
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:01,960
if you were a European head of state, or if

1227
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,079
you were in the executive kind of branch of a

1228
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:07,800
European state. I mean, in the early twentieth century, like

1229
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,439
America wasn't really at the forefront of your thoughts. I mean, yeah,

1230
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:13,840
you had a sense of it's great power capability, and

1231
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,199
you know, you had you had an understanding that it's

1232
01:10:17,239 --> 01:10:20,279
intervention or that intervention could make or break outcomes, particularly

1233
01:10:20,319 --> 01:10:24,199
in geopolitical terms, but it it was just kind of

1234
01:10:24,199 --> 01:10:29,239
this remote thing, you know. So yeah, I mean most

1235
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:34,239
most I I guarantee you that most guys, like foreign

1236
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:36,680
fighters who joined the VAFAN did so if they wanted

1237
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,520
to kill Ivan and they hated Communists, not because you know,

1238
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,359
they're like, we love national socialism, although some of them did.

1239
01:10:43,039 --> 01:10:45,560
But at the same time, I mean, it doesn't matter

1240
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,640
because it owes to what I said. I mean it,

1241
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:54,439
you know, European political life orbits around Berlin. So it's like, well,

1242
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,680
you know we're we're going to you know, we're gonna

1243
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,399
we're going to war with the communists, you know, so

1244
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,199
you know, Berlin's gonna leave us, you know, and if

1245
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,640
if the access in one, it's like okay, well you

1246
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:09,880
know it, uh, you know, whether people like it or not.

1247
01:11:10,039 --> 01:11:14,159
You know, it's like basically the tenor of pug A

1248
01:11:14,239 --> 01:11:16,439
life would have originated in Berlin. I mean, where else

1249
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:21,880
is it going to come from? It It's a fancying issue.

1250
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I can understand why why the Spanish

1251
01:11:25,239 --> 01:11:28,760
would hate the Communists, But if they have, why do

1252
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:32,840
you think people were coming from all those other countries?

1253
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,680
I mean, what was the Because we aren't taught this.

1254
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:37,720
I mean you talked about it last time you were

1255
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,359
on here. Nuremberg just basically put a nail in the

1256
01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:45,760
coffin for being right wing. And if your right wing

1257
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,439
nowadays you have to be middle of the road right

1258
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,399
wing and you just have to bow down to whatever

1259
01:11:50,399 --> 01:11:57,279
the left says. But what was it about certain people

1260
01:11:57,399 --> 01:11:59,640
in Europe who would be willing to go and fight

1261
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:03,399
for a foreign army? They hated communism so much? I

1262
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:07,039
mean it was obvious in some countries, but yeah.

1263
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 2: Well, I mean generally it's like, I mean, back to

1264
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:16,039
the point about uh what Nolphi was saying. It these

1265
01:12:16,119 --> 01:12:20,239
German guys, I mean Hiler himself, but also, uh, you

1266
01:12:20,279 --> 01:12:23,800
know this idea Germans had that that Bolshevism is this

1267
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:30,560
you know, homicidal paradigm that you know is the is

1268
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:34,319
being foisted upon us and implemented by radicals and and

1269
01:12:34,399 --> 01:12:36,640
you know Jews who want to kill us. I mean,

1270
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,600
you can say that's crazy, year, that's a bad way

1271
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:40,960
to think about things. That's basically the way people thought

1272
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:44,039
about it. You know, nobody's really neutral on communism, whether

1273
01:12:44,079 --> 01:12:45,880
you were with the program or you viewed it like

1274
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,359
I just said. And I mean in the case of

1275
01:12:48,359 --> 01:12:50,520
people I talked about Father Tiso, or in the case

1276
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:52,960
of people like these Slovak guys who joined the Bob

1277
01:12:53,039 --> 01:12:55,640
and s s, they would have done it because they're like, well,

1278
01:12:56,359 --> 01:12:59,000
you know, the this is basic a peasant population of

1279
01:12:59,079 --> 01:13:01,560
Biaus Catholics know, like you know, the Communists are they're

1280
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,159
gonna do to us that they did the Kolos. And

1281
01:13:03,159 --> 01:13:04,840
they're also gonna just you know, they're gonna burn our

1282
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,279
churches down and kill our priests. You know, funck that

1283
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:10,680
you know, we're we're we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna

1284
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,199
burn them to the ground. First in the case of

1285
01:13:14,239 --> 01:13:18,000
a more developed country like France, you know, and I

1286
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,560
mean the last defenders of uh, the guys who the

1287
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,319
Battle of Berlin, the guys who are literally defending the

1288
01:13:23,319 --> 01:13:26,119
Reichstag with a French off on as this. Okay, you

1289
01:13:26,199 --> 01:13:28,840
got a situation like that, it's you know, you'll have

1290
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,199
guys who basically would have viewed it the same way

1291
01:13:32,199 --> 01:13:34,439
that the Germans did. You know, Guys from like a

1292
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,960
developed kind of you know, cosmopolitan we can call it

1293
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:41,000
that European state, they would doude. Communism is like you know,

1294
01:13:41,079 --> 01:13:46,359
so much, so much uh uh you know, kind of

1295
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:49,960
Jewish radicalism aimed at you know, kind of annihilating our

1296
01:13:50,119 --> 01:13:53,319
national existence in favor of this, in favor of this

1297
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:59,760
uh you know, paradigm of enslavement quite literally done. But

1298
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:05,520
I'm and it's not, you know, it's I uh, I've

1299
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:07,319
got an idea. I mean, I don't want to go

1300
01:14:08,239 --> 01:14:12,720
too far a field and bring it into the uh,

1301
01:14:13,079 --> 01:14:21,000
bring it into the round the polemic. But it's the uh,

1302
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,000
you know, it doesn't really at the end of the

1303
01:14:23,159 --> 01:14:26,319
I mean, I think the point a lot that I mean,

1304
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,239
you know, anti fascion. You have this idea that I mean,

1305
01:14:29,279 --> 01:14:30,880
I'm not saying you, but like a lot of people

1306
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,239
this idea because I mean from my Aliwood or whatever,

1307
01:14:33,359 --> 01:14:36,239
from public school that like people were just like revolted

1308
01:14:36,279 --> 01:14:39,239
by like Nazism or something like they weren't, you know,

1309
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:41,000
I mean, even if you weren't like a big national

1310
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:43,239
socialist eve even't like think Hitler was great, even if

1311
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:46,319
you didn't even if you didn't uh love.

1312
01:14:46,279 --> 01:14:48,319
Speaker 1: Nor fascist movements in every country.

1313
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean even people who didn't, particularly.

1314
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 1: Mosley was in the Mosley was an MP.

1315
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, even if you are particularly

1316
01:14:56,119 --> 01:14:57,840
keen to that, it's not like you looked at it

1317
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:01,039
as something revolting or horribly evil. You know. It's like

1318
01:15:02,319 --> 01:15:03,720
you if you were like the middle of the road

1319
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,960
like conservative type or just kind of like a working

1320
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,479
man who you know, was a was a bleeving cat,

1321
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:14,159
like you probably look at fascists like, well, these guys

1322
01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:16,319
have some strange ideas and I think their pageantries a

1323
01:15:16,319 --> 01:15:18,840
bit silly, but they want to kill the communists and

1324
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,159
you know, they want to get Jewish finance capital off

1325
01:15:21,159 --> 01:15:23,199
our back. So yeah, I'm with that. You know, that's

1326
01:15:23,239 --> 01:15:24,800
a good thing. I mean, that's the way they would

1327
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:26,399
have looked at it. And I think that's basically the

1328
01:15:26,399 --> 01:15:28,319
way most guys looked at it. I mean that's what

1329
01:15:29,359 --> 01:15:33,359
the uh you know, like I said, the way to understand, uh,

1330
01:15:34,039 --> 01:15:36,399
the way to understand, say, for example, to state like France,

1331
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:39,720
the way that people looked at the Germans is they're like,

1332
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:42,359
we don't like being under occupation by Berlin. But they

1333
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,039
they didn't never, they didn't like disdain the fact that

1334
01:15:45,079 --> 01:15:47,920
these guys were fascists. They're like, they they didn't care

1335
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,079
about that. I mean, I'm min already did of you know, partisans,

1336
01:15:51,119 --> 01:15:53,399
But I mean that's that's a different thing. You know.

1337
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:55,880
The average man in the street fighting German occupation wasn't

1338
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:59,039
a commy. He was just what I said, he was

1339
01:15:59,039 --> 01:16:03,840
a guy who didn't you didn't want you know, some uh,

1340
01:16:04,119 --> 01:16:06,479
he didn't want some German capo, you know, telling him

1341
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,439
his business. It's not that he hasn't got principal objection

1342
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:14,920
to the fascists, and he probably was a fascist himself.

1343
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of the It's funny that some of

1344
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,680
the people even that I know, will today talk about how,

1345
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:28,000
you know, Israel involvement and how much of our foreign

1346
01:16:28,039 --> 01:16:31,800
policy is based off of is Israel involvement. We need

1347
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:34,000
to get out of it, and we need to cut

1348
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,960
them off, cut off funds, cut everything, just cut cut

1349
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,680
them loose. And a lot of these same people can't

1350
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:44,840
even look back to the thirties and see that people

1351
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:47,279
had the same arguments. They were just coming from a

1352
01:16:47,279 --> 01:16:50,000
different direction. You're talking about banking, you know.

1353
01:16:51,279 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 2: Well it's a little too I mean the fact that

1354
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:56,439
I mean the point it's you know, the there's real

1355
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:04,560
there's real sectarianimity between between between people identify with with

1356
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,840
Judaism and everybody else. Now, I mean, does that mean

1357
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:09,359
that everybody else on the planet is like this big

1358
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:12,159
racist and just like hate people for no reason, or

1359
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:14,960
or does this mean that you know, there's there's there's

1360
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,800
a real problem with with the with the kind of

1361
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,000
with the kind of intrinsic politics of of Jewish identity.

1362
01:17:22,079 --> 01:17:25,479
I mean, I you know, uh I that's why I

1363
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:27,399
you know, yeah, I mean you can't you can't have

1364
01:17:27,399 --> 01:17:28,640
an honest conversation.

1365
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:31,239
Speaker 1: At length about it.

1366
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,319
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly like he was conscious kinds of the stuff. No,

1367
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:38,039
people can't have People can't have grown up conversations about

1368
01:17:38,079 --> 01:17:40,600
such things. So yeah, I mean it's it's it's and

1369
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:44,720
it's amazing with people, even otherwise intelligent people, they can't, Yeah,

1370
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:49,199
they can't like draw these connections between things like it's, uh,

1371
01:17:49,359 --> 01:17:50,800
it's really really extraordinary.

1372
01:17:53,279 --> 01:17:59,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's end it there so that we can get

1373
01:17:59,039 --> 01:18:00,600
into the war the next time we talk.

1374
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:02,640
Speaker 2: No, no, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, I didn't mean to

1375
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,239
go out with too many tangents. But yeah, if.

1376
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:07,359
Speaker 1: You know, okay, yeah, that's what I love tangents.

1377
01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 2: I I appreciate you, man, and yeah, I I I mean,

1378
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,039
it's it's a complicated issues, like I want to make

1379
01:18:14,039 --> 01:18:16,600
sure I don't I don't want to just gloss over

1380
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:21,439
things that are our material to understanding the issues presented.

1381
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,000
But yeah, no, well whatever you want to talk about.

1382
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: Promote your substack. Promote your substack, because I.

1383
01:18:29,159 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I've gotten to the point.

1384
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've gotten to the point where I basically survive

1385
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,640
on what people people give me for my substack, what

1386
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:39,600
people just send to me because they love the show.

1387
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:41,920
They love they love what the people that I have

1388
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:46,439
on the conversations, I have my crazy I want you yeah,

1389
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:49,319
I want you to get you know you deserve. I mean,

1390
01:18:49,359 --> 01:18:51,920
you only have I think it's five episodes of your

1391
01:18:52,279 --> 01:18:56,399
podcast that are exclusive on substack and every.

1392
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been trying to drop it by weekly and

1393
01:18:58,039 --> 01:19:02,479
I'm gonna. I've been in the like the second uh

1394
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,800
the second installing my science fiction brand. I I'm having

1395
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:09,520
a double down on that because I gotta get it

1396
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:11,960
to Imperium Press. But I I what I'm getting is

1397
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,840
I gotta I gotta start putting more long form written

1398
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,079
content on my substacks. I haven't don about a month,

1399
01:19:19,119 --> 01:19:22,479
and I promise I'm gonna I'm going to bear down

1400
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:26,159
on that in earnest. But yeah, my substack is Real

1401
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:31,680
Thomas seven seven seven Real R E A L T

1402
01:19:32,039 --> 01:19:35,199
H O M A S seven seven seven dot substack

1403
01:19:35,239 --> 01:19:39,239
dot com. And uh, it's about half free content, about

1404
01:19:39,239 --> 01:19:42,960
half subcontent like a podcast a subscription, and there's a

1405
01:19:43,159 --> 01:19:46,399
like premium long form stuff that subscription. But there's also,

1406
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,319
like like I said, about half of the law enform

1407
01:19:48,359 --> 01:19:51,399
stuff on there is free, and like my print stuff,

1408
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:54,000
like for my sci fi brand, there's always like previews

1409
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,439
there that are free of like sample chapters and things

1410
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:00,319
like that. So if you like what I do, go there.

1411
01:20:00,399 --> 01:20:04,239
And yeah, it's only five bucks a month too, so

1412
01:20:04,279 --> 01:20:06,640
it shouldn't break your bank and you can read everything.

1413
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,359
If you can't afford five books a month, you shouldn't

1414
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:14,239
be sitting around reading my substick. You should be to survive.

1415
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,479
So but no, in all seriousness, I yeah, I really

1416
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:20,800
really really appreciate the figure that people take an interest.

1417
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,319
But yeah, no again, man, this was great and yeah,

1418
01:20:24,359 --> 01:20:27,680
well we'll get into the war years whenever you want.

1419
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,840
Just let me know and we'll we'll get bicked to it.

1420
01:20:32,399 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 1: It'll be real soon. Thank you. I want to welcome

1421
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:40,119
everyone back to the Pekanonas show, returning for the third

1422
01:20:40,159 --> 01:20:43,399
time less than a month. Thomas seven seven seven.

1423
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:46,600
Speaker 2: It's gone on, man, Hi Pete, thanks for hosting me

1424
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:49,880
yet again. It's only a pleasure, and I'm very grateful.

1425
01:20:51,359 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 1: Last time tried to explain what was happening in Germany

1426
01:20:57,039 --> 01:21:01,079
that was leading up to We went from Versailles, even

1427
01:21:01,079 --> 01:21:03,520
backed a little bit to the Bolshek or evolution and

1428
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:07,359
came forward to what would lead up to World War two.

1429
01:21:08,199 --> 01:21:10,720
But before we started that, I wanted to ask you

1430
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:14,880
a question because this is a question that I've heard

1431
01:21:15,079 --> 01:21:20,239
arguments on, and debate on, and watch lectures on for

1432
01:21:20,279 --> 01:21:25,760
five six years now. The National Socialists in Germany, would

1433
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:28,680
they be considered left wing or right wing?

1434
01:21:30,239 --> 01:21:32,239
Speaker 2: I mean the problem is that in America, and part

1435
01:21:32,279 --> 01:21:36,520
of this owes to part of this, part of this

1436
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:38,359
ows the two things. Part of it ows the Keynes

1437
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,039
and the kind of ideological baggage of Keynes, and part

1438
01:21:41,039 --> 01:21:46,960
of it owes to the subsequent Cold War Americans. Into

1439
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:50,279
a lesser degree, you find this in the UK as

1440
01:21:50,279 --> 01:21:53,039
well as the rest of the kind of Anglophone cultural

1441
01:21:53,359 --> 01:21:57,000
sphere be able. This idea that the right left wing

1442
01:21:57,039 --> 01:22:00,520
divide has something to do with economics, or it has

1443
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:03,520
something to do with, you know, people's view of you know,

1444
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,079
how the government interfaces with with with the free market

1445
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:09,800
or the like, or with what purportally is the free market.

1446
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:12,680
I mean everybody knows is not. There's no such thing

1447
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:15,079
as a kind of purely like free market, you know,

1448
01:22:15,159 --> 01:22:17,840
like that that that just exists, like in stasis, like

1449
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:21,840
Newtonian physics just exists or something. But I mean that

1450
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,159
that's a been too abstract for what we're talking about here.

1451
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,479
But the you know, the way the Europeans, if you

1452
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,920
want to understand what the right left divide originally meant,

1453
01:22:30,159 --> 01:22:33,119
like conceptually, You've got to look at the French Revolution

1454
01:22:33,319 --> 01:22:37,279
and what gave rise to those clefts. It has to

1455
01:22:37,279 --> 01:22:40,039
do with political values. It has to do with what

1456
01:22:40,079 --> 01:22:43,399
you consider like how how you view authority, how you

1457
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:47,319
view the legitimacy of authority, and what what you view

1458
01:22:47,359 --> 01:22:52,880
as as the proper you know, domain of a of

1459
01:22:51,359 --> 01:22:55,079
a of the state, and and of culture, and where

1460
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:57,840
where the dominion of one begins and the other ends,

1461
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:01,119
and what the content of those things is. Okay, it's

1462
01:23:01,159 --> 01:23:04,840
not Wait when you find these libertarian types who claim, like, oh,

1463
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,159
Adolf Hitler was a left winger because he believed in

1464
01:23:07,239 --> 01:23:09,760
high taxes or something. I mean, that's that's other deliberately

1465
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:13,079
up to some kind of a an effort to sabotage

1466
01:23:13,119 --> 01:23:16,079
the conversation on purpose, or or it's just really really

1467
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:21,520
provincial and ignorant, you know, the the the only one

1468
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:25,720
unders say national socialism is is I mean, there's something

1469
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:28,880
to the the A. J. B. Taylor's view of it,

1470
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:32,319
as as Sonderveg is, you know, owing to the the

1471
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,079
kind of peculiar like dialectical course of Germany that gave

1472
01:23:36,159 --> 01:23:38,720
rise to it, like it would it wouldn't really have

1473
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,039
emerged in another state I believe that, and that's also

1474
01:23:41,039 --> 01:23:43,399
why it's important to distinguish it from fascism and other

1475
01:23:45,119 --> 01:23:48,640
kinds of autocratic movements that UH that developed kind of

1476
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,439
cominantly with it. But it, you know, the the fact

1477
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:55,560
of the matter is it it was. It was. It

1478
01:23:55,600 --> 01:24:00,960
was an effort to salvage what UH culture from what

1479
01:24:01,039 --> 01:24:04,560
Hyder called practical transcendence. And what Haider said transcendence, he

1480
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,920
didn't mean, you know, like we think about in a

1481
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:08,840
Christian sense or like in a plate in a sense.

1482
01:24:10,199 --> 01:24:13,359
He meant that modern life and the challenges of it,

1483
01:24:13,399 --> 01:24:15,720
and particularly the emergence of technology and other things, and

1484
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:18,479
the kind of tensions and tensions inherent they're in, you know,

1485
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,680
one of which was class warfare, or one of which

1486
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:25,720
culminated in class warfare. Rather, it's not spontaneously occurring thing

1487
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:30,439
desplay what mister Merk said, this leads to the destruction

1488
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:35,039
of certain practices values, for Lagab to phrase it, or

1489
01:24:35,119 --> 01:24:38,399
characterized orientation points for the way people live their lives

1490
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:43,560
individually and severally or severally and in common with others,

1491
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:49,560
you know, in communitarian ways. So the national socialism had

1492
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,840
if everyone like boil it down to a like, say

1493
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:56,439
like three principles. It was, you know, to restore German sovereignty,

1494
01:24:57,159 --> 01:25:01,159
you know, and deliberated from the from you know, being

1495
01:25:01,239 --> 01:25:06,079
yoked by its enemies, you know, to to preserve the

1496
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:10,600
German culture and guarantee the posterity of its people. And

1497
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:12,399
and then you know, the German race, if if you

1498
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:14,640
want to characterize it that way, as people in the

1499
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:17,520
twentieth century tended to think about things in biological material

1500
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:23,600
terms and to eradicate communism, you know, for all time,

1501
01:25:24,479 --> 01:25:27,720
and and basically all iterations of of of left wing

1502
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:33,760
thought and practice that you know, we're facilitating those first

1503
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:39,199
two things that I mentioned. So it's an existential proposition,

1504
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:42,600
you know, the idea that you know, there's a check

1505
01:25:43,039 --> 01:25:45,520
like it's the same thing on like Americans talking about democracy,

1506
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:47,960
like there's a checklist, and you know, if you identify

1507
01:25:48,039 --> 01:25:51,439
certain factors like oh, that's democracy or this is not democracy.

1508
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:53,720
You know, it's like, let's look at it. Idolf Hitler

1509
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:56,279
in the National Socialist German Workers Party. You know, if

1510
01:25:56,279 --> 01:25:58,279
I check off, I know, off in the socialist box,

1511
01:25:58,279 --> 01:25:59,960
that means it's left wing. Or if I check off

1512
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:02,319
enough here it's right wing, that's not really the way

1513
01:26:02,359 --> 01:26:05,560
political theory develops, and that that's not the way, that's

1514
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,720
certainly not the way people can sceptualize it in Europe.

1515
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,600
So you know, the only the only way to look

1516
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,279
at national socialism is that is as a radical right

1517
01:26:13,279 --> 01:26:16,760
wing tendency, kind of like the ultimate radical right wing tendency,

1518
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:21,199
and in in Hegelian terms. And whether you accept Hegel's

1519
01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:24,560
view of things or not, and is you know, his

1520
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,000
his his idea about the cunning of reason and history

1521
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,479
all that aside, even if you're rejected as metaphysics outright.

1522
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:34,359
You know, the Germans themselves I'm talking about you know, uh,

1523
01:26:35,039 --> 01:26:37,720
people like like ordinary men involved in political life, not

1524
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:42,159
just high flighting academics. They basically accepted Hegelian paradigms and

1525
01:26:42,239 --> 01:26:44,800
they thought they they thought of politics itself as a

1526
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:49,479
dialectical process. So there weren't even even national socialists on

1527
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:52,640
the strass Or side, who you know, were had a

1528
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:56,000
conciliatory view of the Soviet Union in relative terms, and

1529
01:26:56,079 --> 01:26:59,079
who you know, incorporated a lot more of kind of

1530
01:27:00,199 --> 01:27:05,159
class antagonism, sorts of paradigms into their program. They they

1531
01:27:05,239 --> 01:27:08,239
viewed themselves, they viewed themselves as radically right wing and

1532
01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:12,039
as the radical right wing response to subversive elements from

1533
01:27:12,079 --> 01:27:14,600
the other side and the other side being left. So

1534
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:18,199
in that sense, you're talking about people who, in existential terms,

1535
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:21,279
look at themselves as the right wing vanguard. So it

1536
01:27:21,319 --> 01:27:23,520
can't be anything other than the right wing. Like, if

1537
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,520
that's what you view yourself as in political terms, that's

1538
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:30,680
what everybody else views you as. You know, the enemy is, uh,

1539
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:33,600
who is willing to kill you and who you're willing

1540
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:36,079
to kill in kind like views you as that that's

1541
01:27:36,079 --> 01:27:40,279
what you are. So I mean, that's that's uh, that's

1542
01:27:40,279 --> 01:27:42,279
the best way you can characterize it. And there's no

1543
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:44,800
like argument there in my opinion. But like I said,

1544
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:51,079
it's uh, it's uh, it's it becomes convoluted because part

1545
01:27:51,079 --> 01:27:55,359
of this is uh, you know, pe people view their

1546
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:57,640
left right divide in America, and part I mean, like

1547
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:59,520
I said, I mean, Teams is really toxic and all

1548
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:01,119
kinds of ways. And I think he was a fraud

1549
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:03,760
and a pseudo intellectual at base as much as Marx was.

1550
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:09,199
But there's a there, there's ideological baggage, the Keynes and

1551
01:28:09,199 --> 01:28:11,680
and the kind of and you know, and and the

1552
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:15,760
kind of demand side paradigm it's it's basically, uh, it's

1553
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:17,760
got what we would consider it to be today, you know,

1554
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:20,880
like a like a like a social justice ethos baked

1555
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:24,000
into it that is essentially hostile to everything that came

1556
01:28:24,039 --> 01:28:26,720
before it, and that suggests that, you know, the the

1557
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:29,439
role of government is to you know, resolve like certain

1558
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,000
inequalities that are just inherently unjust and need to be remedied.

1559
01:28:33,319 --> 01:28:36,640
But that's not what that's not what socialism at based

1560
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,920
it is, Okay, I mean you want to Spangl himself

1561
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:42,720
made the point that you know, Prussia, particularly, you know,

1562
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:47,920
in particularly like Bismarck's model of good government was highly socialistic.

1563
01:28:48,399 --> 01:28:51,279
I mean, if you think if you think that, if

1564
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:53,319
you if you think that you know Bismarck had something

1565
01:28:53,319 --> 01:28:57,079
in common with you know, uh like nineties the nineteen

1566
01:28:57,079 --> 01:28:59,359
seventies Labor Party in the UK, you have something wrong

1567
01:28:59,399 --> 01:29:01,119
with you or you're in idiots, you know. I mean,

1568
01:29:01,159 --> 01:29:03,439
it's not or if you think that you know the

1569
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:07,279
or if you think that you know the the the

1570
01:29:07,319 --> 01:29:12,319
Prussian ethos was held something in common with with the

1571
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,239
with with euro Communism that came later, I mean that's

1572
01:29:16,279 --> 01:29:19,359
absurd too, you know, I mean it's it's nonsense. I

1573
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:22,840
don't see anybody can think otherwise. But you know, that's

1574
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:25,479
that's the way to understand it. Werner Sombart is kind

1575
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:27,920
of the key. If you want to understand right wing

1576
01:29:28,039 --> 01:29:31,760
socialism such as such that it is, that's probably the

1577
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:33,800
wrong way to characterize it. But if you want to

1578
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:36,399
understand socialism not of the Marcist left, you should read

1579
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:39,159
Verner Sombard. You should probably read oz Wald Spangler. But

1580
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:43,880
I don't even I don't even think you need to

1581
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:49,560
get that esoteric. I mean all socialisms it's are kind

1582
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:54,720
of European exiomatically, because the origins of Europe as a

1583
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:59,880
kind of cultural socio political form, this come develops on

1584
01:30:00,039 --> 01:30:04,159
a medieval mind, Okay, and uh, there's a there's there's

1585
01:30:04,159 --> 01:30:09,319
an interdependence between casts there that uh was shattered by

1586
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:13,439
the modern age. Uh. Part of this was deliberate, but

1587
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:18,159
part of it just is was was inevitable, owing the

1588
01:30:18,199 --> 01:30:21,920
you know, emergent modalities of of labor, of production, but

1589
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:25,840
also of you know, just patterns of living and and

1590
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:29,439
and what people and the authority, what people recognize as authority,

1591
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:32,079
and like what authority they appeal to for justice and

1592
01:30:32,119 --> 01:30:34,600
things like that you know, when when there's no more

1593
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,920
lord in the manner and there's there's no more there's

1594
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:42,119
no more uh, there's no more subsistence agriculture. That that

1595
01:30:42,239 --> 01:30:45,920
changes everything and the whole kind of the whole theory

1596
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:50,159
of socialism, whoever you pay it on the political spectrum,

1597
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:54,960
whatever iteration you're talking about, it's basically it's basically an

1598
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:59,439
effort to uh, to restore the social capital that was

1599
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:05,239
shattered by the emergence of a of a of modern life.

1600
01:31:06,399 --> 01:31:08,680
It's more complicated than that, but that's kind of the

1601
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:11,760
basic brass tacks of it. That's the best answer I

1602
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:12,119
can give.

1603
01:31:13,359 --> 01:31:18,720
Speaker 1: We'll let people chew on that, all right. So Germany

1604
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:21,600
invades Poland? What leads up to that? Why does that happen?

1605
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:28,560
Speaker 2: Well, Poland was essentially ruled by a military junta that

1606
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:32,279
was somewhat unstable, not just in the way that I

1607
01:31:32,319 --> 01:31:34,960
mean conditions that lead any military junta kind of taking

1608
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:40,159
power or unstable, but it uh, there was a kind

1609
01:31:40,159 --> 01:31:43,680
of great power intrigues the destabilized that situation. You know,

1610
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:48,680
like I raised before and on on Bronze Age Perverts podcast,

1611
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:55,319
we deep dive into this what became to be known

1612
01:31:55,439 --> 01:32:00,359
is the Polish documents are uh something will need to

1613
01:32:00,359 --> 01:32:02,439
pay attention to if they want to understand why Poland

1614
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:05,359
did what it did in terms of refusing to come

1615
01:32:05,359 --> 01:32:09,720
to terms with Germany. Essentially, what Germany demanded of Poland

1616
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:16,920
was they demanded uh dedicated access to uh Danzig. They demanded,

1617
01:32:17,279 --> 01:32:21,600
you know, uh that their people uh be guaranteed uh

1618
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:24,600
certain rights of self determination what was called the Polish Corridor,

1619
01:32:26,239 --> 01:32:31,000
and UH they wanted uh some kind of guarantee that

1620
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:35,920
they could deploy, uh they could deploy to accomplish defense

1621
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,760
and depth like on Polish soil in common with Poland,

1622
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:41,520
like an event that you know, the Soviet Union mobilized

1623
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:45,680
with hostility, but they were willing to let the Poles,

1624
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,399
you know, retain uh sovereign control over Danzig song as

1625
01:32:49,399 --> 01:32:51,680
the Germans had dedicated access and so long as the

1626
01:32:53,039 --> 01:32:55,760
so long as the so long as the ethnic Germans

1627
01:32:55,760 --> 01:33:00,560
there uh had you know, had uh at formal political rights,

1628
01:33:02,279 --> 01:33:05,000
and UH I believe Poland would have come would have

1629
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:07,479
accepted those terms because they were entirely reasonable and they

1630
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:10,640
were precedented at that point. The Germans weren't even demanding that,

1631
01:33:11,239 --> 01:33:13,239
you know, the territories that have been seated the Poland

1632
01:33:13,279 --> 01:33:15,319
never the Great War, have you decoupled from Poland and

1633
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:17,199
given back to them? I mean, this was a very

1634
01:33:17,239 --> 01:33:21,640
moderate set of demands, frankly, and these demands, oh the

1635
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:25,720
basic national security exigencies that I whatever whatever regime was

1636
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:31,039
in Berlin, would have basically demanded the same thing. A

1637
01:33:31,079 --> 01:33:33,680
couple of links happened to frame this and conict as

1638
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:36,720
do why is the why war kind of became ineutable

1639
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:43,680
in my opinion, Like I said, the Polish documents a

1640
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:48,159
UH a UH after the invasion UH of Poland by

1641
01:33:48,159 --> 01:33:54,600
the Wehrmacht. A UH an SS battalion sees these documents

1642
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:02,000
from UH from UH. I can't remember it was the

1643
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:06,039
Foreign Ministry or if it was UH, or if it

1644
01:34:06,079 --> 01:34:08,680
was somewhere else, but in any event, the crux of

1645
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:14,680
these documents was that they've been diplomatic UH overtures to Poland.

1646
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:19,399
We're in UH. Roosevelt, through William Bullet, had given Poland

1647
01:34:19,399 --> 01:34:21,800
the formal guarantee it if they held out against Germany

1648
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:24,720
like they would support them an event of war, and

1649
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:30,840
that I believe probably UH stiffen the resolve even more

1650
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:34,600
than Chamberlain's guaranteed did I mean, obviously Chamberlain's guarantee was

1651
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:40,039
above board, and uh the Roosevelt that the New Dealers

1652
01:34:41,039 --> 01:34:44,199
guarantee was not. But you've got to consider in context

1653
01:34:44,279 --> 01:34:46,359
what have been going on between the New Dealers in

1654
01:34:46,399 --> 01:34:51,560
Poland leading over to that point, Uh Ambassador Uh Potowski

1655
01:34:52,199 --> 01:34:55,840
Potowski I always always butchered the pronunciation of these Slavic names.

1656
01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:00,319
But when he'd been in Washington several months before the

1657
01:35:00,319 --> 01:35:05,199
outbreak of hostilities, you know, late nineteen thirty eight, really

1658
01:35:05,239 --> 01:35:07,239
ninety thirty nine, I think it was around holiday season

1659
01:35:07,279 --> 01:35:11,119
nineteen thirty eight, he ran across William Bullet. William Bullet

1660
01:35:11,159 --> 01:35:13,880
was a bassador of France, but he was something of

1661
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:17,039
a minister without portfolio and Roosevelt's administration, he was kind

1662
01:35:17,039 --> 01:35:20,119
of the defect of Secretary of State like Cordell Hall.

1663
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:25,680
It was always kind of sidelined, but it it was

1664
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:30,039
understood even at the time that Bullet he wielded disbortionate power.

1665
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,279
He was considered not ridicularly serious guy. He was kind

1666
01:35:33,279 --> 01:35:37,479
of this foppish guy, like a man about town, you know.

1667
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:41,039
He was one of Roosevelt's kind of aristocratic con seats

1668
01:35:41,079 --> 01:35:43,600
came out in some of these associations, he maintained. And

1669
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:47,319
nowhere was that more evident thing with William Bullet. But uh,

1670
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:53,000
when Potowski ran across a Bullet, he voices he said

1671
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:57,079
that he relayed back to Warsaw. Patowsky did that, you know,

1672
01:35:57,479 --> 01:36:01,600
Bullet was characterizing a you know, the Soviet Union in

1673
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:08,520
completely benign terms. Uh, Roosevelt was, Uh was was speaking

1674
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:12,880
of Germany and in such jinguistic language that you know,

1675
01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:16,199
it was having the effect of of of of kind

1676
01:36:16,199 --> 01:36:19,920
of a kind of facilitating a crisis where they didn't

1677
01:36:19,920 --> 01:36:23,319
necessarily have to be one. Basically, what Potoski said was

1678
01:36:23,359 --> 01:36:25,479
that the New Dealers were facilitating a kind of war

1679
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:30,000
fever by their abilification of Germany, and on top of

1680
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:31,760
it that they were kind of, you know, they they

1681
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:34,479
were placing Poland at the right precarious position vis a

1682
01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:38,199
vis the Soviet Union because they were assentially demanding that

1683
01:36:38,199 --> 01:36:40,239
Poland started looking at the Soviet Union as a strategic

1684
01:36:40,359 --> 01:36:43,359
ally when, according to Patowski, like these people, meaning the

1685
01:36:43,399 --> 01:36:45,640
Soviets were a greater threat it's essentially to Poland and

1686
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:50,520
the Germans were and uh, it it indicated a real

1687
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:55,239
contempt for for Roosevelt and in the entire foreign policy apparatus

1688
01:36:55,239 --> 01:36:59,039
in Washington. In Potowski's view, he said that, you know,

1689
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:01,920
you was in their financial years. These are his words,

1690
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:07,960
not mine. We're uh, we're we're trying to orchestrate a crisis,

1691
01:37:08,199 --> 01:37:12,279
and at the same time, you know, build a more

1692
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:14,720
coalition against Germany, just you know, for the sake of

1693
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:18,399
smashing Germany without regard to you know, what that would

1694
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:23,439
do to the geostrategic landscape in Europe and the fact

1695
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:26,159
that there'd be no uh, there'd be no bulwark against

1696
01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:31,920
the Soviet power which was increasingly you know, uh being

1697
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:38,800
asserted by Stalin, both directly and implicitly at the same time.

1698
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:44,039
I mean, so in other words, you uh, you had

1699
01:37:44,039 --> 01:37:47,239
these you had natural conditions of tension extent between Germany

1700
01:37:47,239 --> 01:37:50,199
and Poland. I mean they go back probably a millennia,

1701
01:37:51,279 --> 01:37:56,880
and uh, the Polish government was doing basically nothing to

1702
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:00,479
stop what amounted to a burgaining kind of race war

1703
01:38:00,479 --> 01:38:06,079
in the ground. Uh, the post majority was ethnically cleansing Jews, Russians, uh, Germans,

1704
01:38:07,239 --> 01:38:11,039
other people that they didn't like. Uh. You know, the

1705
01:38:11,239 --> 01:38:15,399
uh you had uh, you you had you had some

1706
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:19,640
moderates in Warsaw within the military government. You had others

1707
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:26,560
who were uh incredibly uh incredibly jinguistic, and we're looking

1708
01:38:27,319 --> 01:38:30,960
for the opportunity to uh, you know, essentially sue from

1709
01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:34,880
war in order to grab even more land uh from Germany.

1710
01:38:35,359 --> 01:38:37,119
On top of that, which ever even seated to them,

1711
01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:39,600
you even had some elements who were who believe that

1712
01:38:39,640 --> 01:38:43,680
Germany's back had been broken so much by the defeat

1713
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:48,399
nineteen eighteen and by the subsequent uh uh you know,

1714
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:50,439
by the by the by the subsequent you know, sanction

1715
01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:52,600
of Versailles and everything else that you know, if if

1716
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:54,520
if it came to war, they they were even those

1717
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:56,560
who believe that, you know, the Polish army would you know,

1718
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,600
be able to march on Berlin within weeks, I mean,

1719
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:02,079
which seems totally insane. This is history in the rearview mirror,

1720
01:39:02,119 --> 01:39:05,319
and it's amazing what people can convince themselves of when

1721
01:39:05,319 --> 01:39:09,520
they're when they're convinced the rightness of their cause as

1722
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,920
it were, so, I mean, basically all of those reasons

1723
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:20,279
and its uh I believe too, the uh what was

1724
01:39:20,279 --> 01:39:23,520
always within the contemplation. And both John Toland and David

1725
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:29,000
Irving make this point, neither of whom are military historians,

1726
01:39:29,039 --> 01:39:32,920
but They're both were incredibly I mean, Irving is still alive,

1727
01:39:33,039 --> 01:39:36,079
but you know, Irving's kind of the seminal historian of

1728
01:39:36,119 --> 01:39:38,600
the Third Reich who everybody feels about him in tooland

1729
01:39:40,079 --> 01:39:43,640
tooland is unique had unique insight into the personage of Hitler,

1730
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:46,840
I believe, and he had a good understand I think

1731
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:51,039
he's probably the best documentarian of Hitler's relationship with the

1732
01:39:51,119 --> 01:39:54,960
O k W. And you know, the the General staff

1733
01:39:55,560 --> 01:40:03,359
rather it uh, the UH very much within the contemplation

1734
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:08,199
of of of Hitler was UH the Soviet Union and

1735
01:40:08,239 --> 01:40:12,880
its power projection potential and the UH. One of the

1736
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:15,640
reasons Hitler was so eager until it became clear that

1737
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:17,840
this was just totally off the table. The super peace

1738
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,479
with the Western allies is because you know, like AJB.

1739
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:26,479
Taylor to you know, bring up him again as I

1740
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:30,119
did about the sunder vague point a moment ago, Hitler

1741
01:40:30,159 --> 01:40:34,840
didn't really have any interest in the West. I mean, yeah,

1742
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,239
like any kind of any kind of German superpower, you know,

1743
01:40:38,399 --> 01:40:41,279
was going to dominate Europe as a little pivot politically

1744
01:40:41,279 --> 01:40:45,560
and militarily of the continent. But this idea that you know,

1745
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,199
the this idea like the German had some sort of

1746
01:40:48,239 --> 01:40:52,479
designs on France or something. I mean, well, in naked

1747
01:40:54,039 --> 01:40:56,560
geo strategic terms, you know what exactly would that accomplish?

1748
01:40:56,680 --> 01:40:59,760
You know, nothing really is of like thirty nine nineteen forty.

1749
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:02,239
So if you want again is that if you want

1750
01:41:02,279 --> 01:41:04,479
to understand the Polish situation too, Like, aside from all

1751
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:06,920
these intrigues and just intrinsic tensions, you've also got to

1752
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:09,960
understand what the Soviet Union was doing. The Soviet Union

1753
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:13,000
was amassing the largest military force the world the planet

1754
01:41:13,039 --> 01:41:18,359
had ever seen it. Uh. It was a burgaining superpower

1755
01:41:18,399 --> 01:41:20,920
as much as the United States was in military terms

1756
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:25,399
obviously not in not in productive terms, and in UH

1757
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:29,279
in terms of UH, you know, in terms of uh

1758
01:41:29,479 --> 01:41:33,199
economic wealth and the ability to translate its natural bounty

1759
01:41:33,239 --> 01:41:36,079
into value added you know, manufacturers. Obviously that wasn't there.

1760
01:41:36,199 --> 01:41:38,319
But it's capacity to make war in protect power was

1761
01:41:39,159 --> 01:41:41,560
was absolutely in a part with the United States potentially,

1762
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,479
but the anything Germany wanted to do if if there

1763
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:49,000
if it could not, if Germany could not reach them

1764
01:41:49,039 --> 01:41:51,720
a sort of concorde with Poland in the form of

1765
01:41:51,760 --> 01:41:56,560
mutual defense pact or at least you know, some kind

1766
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:59,560
of right of parlay in terms of you know, deploying

1767
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:03,279
uh in depth across the Polish frontier in common with

1768
01:42:03,319 --> 01:42:06,680
the Polish Army. If that couldn't be achieved, Jerry would

1769
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:08,319
not be able to come to terms with Poland, because

1770
01:42:08,319 --> 01:42:09,840
that would mean that there was you know, they were

1771
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:13,840
just constantly, essentially at a risk of assault by the

1772
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:21,600
Soviet Union with no naturally defensible boundaries between them and

1773
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:24,119
the Soviet Army. And Poland would have been in a

1774
01:42:24,119 --> 01:42:26,479
position too where they could essentially and definitely play off

1775
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:28,920
the Soviet Union against Germany and vice versa in order

1776
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:30,479
to get what they wanted. I mean, it would not

1777
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:39,279
be a tenable situation, that's why. But moving forward as

1778
01:42:39,399 --> 01:42:49,159
late as as late as October nineteen thirty nine, you know,

1779
01:42:49,239 --> 01:42:54,800
like several weeks into the several weeks into the invasion,

1780
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:59,479
William Roach Davis, who was this kind of industrialist type.

1781
01:43:00,039 --> 01:43:02,640
Uh he was. He was not a new dealer, but

1782
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:09,960
nor was he in America first or he uh he made

1783
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:15,439
overtures to Berlin at the behest of a Department of

1784
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:18,239
State to see what you know, as a civilian, which

1785
01:43:18,279 --> 01:43:21,319
is and you know not not as not not any

1786
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:26,560
physical capacity. This was very unofficial diplomacy. But Davis approached

1787
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:31,760
Hitler through UH weisacer at UH, you know, the Foreign

1788
01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:37,560
Ministry in Berlin, and asked, UH what Germany was willing

1789
01:43:37,600 --> 01:43:41,560
to offer, you know, if uh if, if if America

1790
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:43,199
was willing to step in and try and you know,

1791
01:43:43,279 --> 01:43:47,600
negotiate some sort of peace, and UH Germany said that

1792
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:51,399
they'd allow Poland to remain sovereign so long as it

1793
01:43:51,479 --> 01:43:55,520
became a uh as, so long as it adopted a

1794
01:43:55,520 --> 01:44:00,159
former neutrality visa the Germany and the Soviet Union. So

1795
01:44:00,239 --> 01:44:02,680
long as the territories that have been lost during the

1796
01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:05,720
Great War were decoupled and incorporated back into the German Reich,

1797
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:10,039
you know, so long as the Germans got Damzig, and

1798
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:17,439
you know, so long as so long as h you know,

1799
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:19,560
so long as those conditions were met, basically like they

1800
01:44:20,199 --> 01:44:23,960
they would would draw you know, they would draw up

1801
01:44:24,279 --> 01:44:27,560
beyond you know, what would be the new German borders,

1802
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,840
which are basically what they'd been in nineteen fourteen. Okay,

1803
01:44:31,079 --> 01:44:33,239
which is not a great deal for the polls, but

1804
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:35,960
it's better than what became of the polls. And frankly,

1805
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:41,119
the Germans didn't have to offer anything. And then when apparently,

1806
01:44:41,159 --> 01:44:46,239
when Davis returned to Washington, Roosevelt refused to meet him.

1807
01:44:46,279 --> 01:44:49,760
Cordell Hull refused to meet him, and he was basically stonewalled.

1808
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:54,800
And everybody in Roosevelt's regime pretended as if these conversations

1809
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:59,079
never happened. Now, the cynic in me wants to believe

1810
01:44:59,119 --> 01:45:01,399
that Roosevelt was trying to hedges bets looking forward to

1811
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:05,279
his uh re election, But uh, I mean, who the

1812
01:45:05,279 --> 01:45:09,199
hell knows? Davis said, no reason to lie about this?

1813
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:14,079
Uh what he what he said was uh what the

1814
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:18,520
It was pretty well documented by by Tom Fleming in

1815
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:21,680
the New Dealers War and as well as by uh

1816
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:24,640
Mark webber At I h r, he's he's he's, I

1817
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:27,039
mean what I'm dropping this force that people can look

1818
01:45:27,039 --> 01:45:28,520
it up if they want to. They don't need to

1819
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:30,760
just take my word for it. But I mean, this

1820
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:34,199
was the post situation was very very murky. In other words, Okay,

1821
01:45:34,279 --> 01:45:38,720
that's what, but it was, uh you know, it was

1822
01:45:39,119 --> 01:45:43,439
the primary catalyst was, uh, you know, the the power

1823
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:47,159
political paradigm between Germany and the Soviet Union, which is

1824
01:45:47,199 --> 01:45:50,600
why I mean, that's what did what What did Berlin do?

1825
01:45:51,199 --> 01:45:53,640
What did Berlin's last year alf Hitler do before U

1826
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:56,960
before giving the assault order. I mean they sat down

1827
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:03,439
with UH ribent troup and you know, Stalin's UH delegates

1828
01:46:03,439 --> 01:46:09,279
what authority to negotiate in UH such capacities, and you know,

1829
01:46:10,359 --> 01:46:13,960
divvied up like what you know, the what what what

1830
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:16,880
the map would look like after this, after thees stage

1831
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:21,119
in hostilities of Poland, because and that wasn't an accident.

1832
01:46:21,199 --> 01:46:23,279
I mean, that wasn't just you know, Germany being a

1833
01:46:23,279 --> 01:46:26,159
good neighbor and in power political terms, I mean that

1834
01:46:26,319 --> 01:46:28,319
was this was a catalyst for the war. I mean,

1835
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:37,680
you know, it was it was a geostrategic contest between UH,

1836
01:46:37,760 --> 01:46:40,319
the Reich and the Soviet Union and and the Poles

1837
01:46:40,399 --> 01:46:43,159
thought that they could gamble and somehow profit and that

1838
01:46:43,199 --> 01:46:45,800
was incredibly foolish. But like I said, it was an

1839
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:48,439
unstable regime. He made the point that one of the

1840
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:51,119
more bizarre things is I mean, yeah, okay, I realized

1841
01:46:51,119 --> 01:46:56,279
that there's always there's always UH fictions that are confabulated

1842
01:46:56,720 --> 01:47:00,880
in order to rationalize, you know, and intervention and things,

1843
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:05,840
and in these in these power political affairs, and you know,

1844
01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:10,000
there's there's always there's there's ever honesty that a foot

1845
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:13,279
when I'm America decided to go to war, But holding

1846
01:47:13,319 --> 01:47:15,560
out the Polish regime of nineteen thirty nine is some

1847
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:17,680
sort of beacon of democracy or some kind of a

1848
01:47:18,359 --> 01:47:20,760
you know, or some sort of is there some sort

1849
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:24,039
of victim of uh, of the intrigues of authoritarian states.

1850
01:47:24,039 --> 01:47:26,520
I mean, that's particularly absurd, you know, Like I said,

1851
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:28,760
it was, this was literally a military junta that was

1852
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:32,640
ethnically cleansing people, uh that it uh that it didn't

1853
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:37,039
think belonged, and it's uh and it's uh and it's

1854
01:47:37,079 --> 01:47:41,000
a national state. So that's the best summary I can profer.

1855
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:45,159
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the fact that

1856
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:51,239
we are taught nowhere when we're growing up, when we're

1857
01:47:51,279 --> 01:47:57,119
in school, that the Soviet Union and communism at that

1858
01:47:57,319 --> 01:48:05,640
point was a great threat to Europe. I mean you saw, yeah,

1859
01:48:05,800 --> 01:48:08,239
you already had the we talked about the last time,

1860
01:48:08,239 --> 01:48:10,199
the Spanish civil all the all the stuff that was

1861
01:48:10,239 --> 01:48:15,039
happening in Spain and all these fascist movements rising up

1862
01:48:15,239 --> 01:48:19,520
in certain countries because they felt the heat of this Germany,

1863
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:29,760
Germany being right there, What did they really did Germany

1864
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:34,159
really feel like the Soviet Union was going to push

1865
01:48:34,199 --> 01:48:37,680
forward and basically take Europe if they wanted.

1866
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:42,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely. And I mean Germany's problem going back

1867
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,359
and Jermany's probably going to make centuries was always Russia, Okay.

1868
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:49,279
I mean, just if you take communism out of it,

1869
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:51,560
that would have changed everything, okay in terms of the

1870
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:55,880
world situation and the ideological persuasion of the state actors

1871
01:48:55,880 --> 01:49:01,600
involved and everything else. But Germany always had geostrategic existential

1872
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:06,840
problem visa v. Russia. That that's just inevitable, okay, because

1873
01:49:07,479 --> 01:49:11,800
that's that's the tragedy of of of great power paradigms,

1874
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:14,479
and particularly Europe, where I mean one of the problems

1875
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:18,159
of Europe is that, uh, you know, Europe is basically

1876
01:49:18,239 --> 01:49:20,199
a peninsula. If you look at it, I mean in

1877
01:49:20,239 --> 01:49:22,600
geographic terms. I mean you know this, you looked at

1878
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:25,880
maps and you're a learning guy, it's essentially it's essentially

1879
01:49:26,239 --> 01:49:30,600
it's an undersized yeah, and there's no there's no natural

1880
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:32,800
way to defend it, you know, And then you have

1881
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:37,479
this there's nothing standing between there's nothing standing between Europe

1882
01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:40,159
and and you know, the barbaric East if you want

1883
01:49:40,199 --> 01:49:41,800
to look I don't look at it that way, but

1884
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:43,399
I mean that's the view and that's the kind of

1885
01:49:43,399 --> 01:49:48,840
the mythology of of Europe and it's existential concerns and fears.

1886
01:49:50,800 --> 01:49:54,439
So I mean there's that, and I you know, the

1887
01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:59,199
uh the Communists had gone on the march uh immediately

1888
01:49:59,239 --> 01:50:01,159
after the Great War or and they basically got stopped

1889
01:50:01,159 --> 01:50:03,920
in their tracks, you know, by the Poles. And that's

1890
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:05,760
one of the reasons why you know, the Polish army

1891
01:50:05,800 --> 01:50:08,720
had this kind of misplaced confidence as people might view it,

1892
01:50:11,079 --> 01:50:14,159
you know, uh, Intrinsically communism, as I made the point

1893
01:50:14,239 --> 01:50:17,039
last time we spoke, communism is not just intrinsically homicidal,

1894
01:50:17,079 --> 01:50:21,640
its intrinsically internationalist. And it's it's kind of like the

1895
01:50:21,680 --> 01:50:24,439
practice of it is to tear down national borders in

1896
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:32,000
frontiers and uh expand almost like uh almost almost like

1897
01:50:32,039 --> 01:50:36,119
a plant germinates its surroundings or something. I mean, I'm

1898
01:50:36,119 --> 01:50:40,720
not trying to sound shrill or resort to luridi perbole,

1899
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:44,439
but I mean there's there's all these considerations. You know,

1900
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:49,560
there was like the Apocao uh uh reality that you know,

1901
01:50:50,439 --> 01:50:56,640
Bolsimism truly had this this kind of uh this this

1902
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,920
this kind of this momentum, this this dialectical momentum that

1903
01:51:00,119 --> 01:51:03,159
it's difficult for people to kind of identify with these

1904
01:51:03,199 --> 01:51:07,720
days because there's nothing comparable but it. But on top

1905
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:11,920
of all those things, too, uh, is Stalin was mobilizing

1906
01:51:12,079 --> 01:51:16,880
uh a massive military force that, you know, as I said,

1907
01:51:17,079 --> 01:51:19,800
was the largest that up to that point it ever existed.

1908
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:23,880
I mean well, and they were situated in offensive deployment

1909
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:28,600
by the time of Barbarossa two years subsequent, just shy

1910
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:31,600
A two years subsequent to, uh, the assault of Poland.

1911
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:32,960
I mean, what what is that he was a Sovietunion

1912
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:35,760
planning on doing with this? I mean they you know

1913
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:40,439
I It's never benign I mean you never you never uh,

1914
01:51:41,079 --> 01:51:43,720
A state never, I mean, even aside from all these

1915
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:49,760
other variables we just mentioned, you, a state never mobilizes,

1916
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:52,560
particularly a state with you know, superpower potential like the

1917
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:56,199
Soviet Union was. A state never mobilizes for benign purposes.

1918
01:51:57,079 --> 01:51:59,640
You know. It's uh, it's equaling as is it going

1919
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:01,720
to draw down on somebody and saying, well, don't worry,

1920
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:04,520
I'm only pointing this weapon at you for defensive purposes.

1921
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,720
I mean that's great, but it you know, the it

1922
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:12,520
doesn't change the fact it's an existential menace and it's

1923
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:15,720
also too, I mean, I believe that was part of

1924
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:18,720
the problem with There's he was there was a I

1925
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:20,439
don't want to we can deep dive into this at

1926
01:52:20,439 --> 01:52:22,279
some other time if you want. But like the Hitler

1927
01:52:22,319 --> 01:52:26,000
Strasser cleft, which in some ways is the radical rights

1928
01:52:26,039 --> 01:52:31,359
equivalent to the Trotzky Stalin cleft. It's an imperfect uh metaphor,

1929
01:52:31,399 --> 01:52:35,479
but I'm kind of intrigued by it. The parallel, uh

1930
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:38,760
the uh, I mean that's there was there was a

1931
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:45,439
there's an international aspect to that, because I mean, Strasser

1932
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:47,760
was certainly no friend of the of the Russians or

1933
01:52:47,800 --> 01:52:51,359
of communism in the Soviet Union, but he realized, you know,

1934
01:52:51,520 --> 01:52:53,520
we've got to somehow come to terms with these people.

1935
01:52:56,800 --> 01:52:59,760
And uh. The response to that, like the Hitler factions

1936
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:05,279
of you you was basically the Prussian view, which was like, okay,

1937
01:53:05,319 --> 01:53:06,760
I mean, even if even if you come to some

1938
01:53:06,840 --> 01:53:10,520
kind of concord with Stalin and with the Russians just

1939
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:13,000
by just by a kind of osmosis, you know, Germany

1940
01:53:13,039 --> 01:53:15,760
is gonna become a fiefdom of Russia's last Soviet Union.

1941
01:53:16,279 --> 01:53:21,159
You know, you can't. You're gonna be junior partner just

1942
01:53:21,199 --> 01:53:25,680
an existential terms in any kind of UH, in any

1943
01:53:26,199 --> 01:53:30,319
in any uh sort of diplomatic political concord of that nature.

1944
01:53:30,359 --> 01:53:32,960
You know, so it's not gonna matter because you know, whatever,

1945
01:53:33,159 --> 01:53:35,840
whatever whatever Germany does in terms of power of projection

1946
01:53:36,039 --> 01:53:39,520
or in terms of existential political decisions, you know, of

1947
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:42,680
a of a military nature is is gonna be dictated

1948
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:44,960
by Moscow. And if not dictated, you know, Moscow is

1949
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,680
gonna have the ultimate veto over it. Then, you know,

1950
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:52,279
in in existential like realist terms. So I mean, there's that.

1951
01:53:52,399 --> 01:53:55,479
And finally, I write a lot of my lawn form

1952
01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:58,039
as people who read me, I I I'm sure of

1953
01:53:58,119 --> 01:54:03,000
gleaned about the fact that I believe that, you know,

1954
01:54:03,359 --> 01:54:07,720
roose Develt in the United States was Germany's primary existential

1955
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:12,159
enemy in UH. I mean, yeah, I realized there was

1956
01:54:12,159 --> 01:54:16,399
a man a key in kind of uh ideological collision

1957
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:20,920
between the German Reich and the Soviet Union and uh

1958
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:25,760
the uh you know, Bolshevism and national socialism. He merged

1959
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:29,239
out of a you know, a common dialectical process and

1960
01:54:29,279 --> 01:54:32,720
they they can't be overstated in the significance of that.

1961
01:54:33,359 --> 01:54:37,880
But uh, in terms of the true kind of Uh,

1962
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:40,239
in terms of the true kind of enemy of the

1963
01:54:40,279 --> 01:54:46,079
German Reich. Uh, I'd say that was America. And uh,

1964
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:50,319
looking forward, that definitely was in Hitler's contemplation. Like I said,

1965
01:54:50,359 --> 01:54:54,039
just read the text of the December eleventh speech. And

1966
01:54:55,279 --> 01:54:59,319
if you're gonna, if you're looking forward, you know, and

1967
01:54:59,359 --> 01:55:02,359
the Germans did think in millennial increments. Okay. I mean

1968
01:55:02,399 --> 01:55:04,840
you can say that there's grandiose and crazy, but it's

1969
01:55:04,920 --> 01:55:07,359
really not. That's the way ancient people's view the world,

1970
01:55:07,399 --> 01:55:12,800
and it h historical time. In the twentieth century. Uh,

1971
01:55:13,920 --> 01:55:18,680
people began to think and these kinds of dargantuan terms. Okay,

1972
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:24,359
I mean that's all the major all the major powers did. Okay,

1973
01:55:24,399 --> 01:55:26,520
it wasn't just the Europeans. It wasn't just Hitler's kind

1974
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:30,800
of you know, artist romanticism taking hold of his taking

1975
01:55:31,359 --> 01:55:35,000
hold of his fascinations. But if you're gonna, if you're

1976
01:55:35,039 --> 01:55:37,600
gonna steal yourself from some ongoing kind of Cold war

1977
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:39,560
with the United States or some kind of great power

1978
01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:43,560
competition with with America, I mean, you've got to become

1979
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:48,079
a superpower yourself. And you know, we're back to the

1980
01:55:48,079 --> 01:55:51,840
the Hitler strass Or problem. Like we just mentioned, Okay,

1981
01:55:51,880 --> 01:55:54,199
I mean you can ether become you ether become a

1982
01:55:54,880 --> 01:55:58,359
fiefdom of the Soviet Union, or you can smash it

1983
01:55:59,159 --> 01:56:02,359
and uh, you can create a European superpower that you know,

1984
01:56:03,199 --> 01:56:07,840
that stretches from the Atlantic coast to the earls and

1985
01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:11,560
is basically the United States of Europe, like replete with UH,

1986
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:15,680
you know, comparable population and UH and a power productive

1987
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:21,039
capacity and and UH and bounty of natural wealth and

1988
01:56:21,039 --> 01:56:25,600
and you know in petroleum and energy and farmland and

1989
01:56:25,640 --> 01:56:27,439
everything else. I mean that's that's the way to look

1990
01:56:27,439 --> 01:56:33,000
at it. So it either way, UH, Germany doesn't. Germany

1991
01:56:33,039 --> 01:56:39,439
doesn't survive unless unless UH it becomes a superpower and

1992
01:56:39,479 --> 01:56:44,239
it becomes a superpower by smashing Ivan. So there's that

1993
01:56:44,399 --> 01:56:48,079
even taking like I said, the even taking the ideological

1994
01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:53,720
UH aspect out of it, and and the dialectical process

1995
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:57,720
that gave rise to the kind of intractable murderous tension

1996
01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:02,399
between UH Berlin and Moscow out of it, and UH

1997
01:57:02,439 --> 01:57:05,600
taking the race war aspect out of it. I that's

1998
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:07,279
what's what's important to consider.

1999
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:12,960
Speaker 1: So Germany goes in in nineteen thirty nine into Poland,

2000
01:57:13,279 --> 01:57:18,439
and what do they start setting up to as a

2001
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:21,920
cudgel against the Soviets.

2002
01:57:22,640 --> 01:57:24,079
Speaker 2: Well, I mean there was a non aggression. There was

2003
01:57:24,119 --> 01:57:25,760
a non aggression pack. There's I think they're not a

2004
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:29,279
non aggression packed, which uh and people you know, the

2005
01:57:29,279 --> 01:57:32,239
Molotov Riymatrop packed, and I mean people who like to

2006
01:57:32,239 --> 01:57:34,640
put Shane in the Third Reich, you know, they like

2007
01:57:34,680 --> 01:57:36,520
to say, like, oh, what you know, Hilo was this

2008
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:39,439
horrible man for you know, breaching a non aggression packed,

2009
01:57:39,439 --> 01:57:43,760
you know, less than two years later. But you don't

2010
01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:45,920
sign non aggression packs of your friends. You sign non

2011
01:57:45,960 --> 01:57:49,439
aggression packs of your enemies, because I mean it should

2012
01:57:49,520 --> 01:57:54,279
be obvious to anybody. And uh, I mean they, like

2013
01:57:54,319 --> 01:58:00,439
I said, they they'd you know, uh, the the Reich

2014
01:58:00,479 --> 01:58:06,600
had approached uh, it approached Stalin and uh and uh

2015
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:11,800
in Ribbon Trop's ministry, and in established that the demarcation

2016
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:16,479
lines would be in uh and the and the Hrymach

2017
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:18,800
literally met the Red Army in you know, Poland Central.

2018
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:22,039
I mean that's what that's that's what the hedge was.

2019
01:58:22,319 --> 01:58:25,039
And uh it was it was less than perfect. I mean,

2020
01:58:25,039 --> 01:58:28,880
you still have the Red Army in your frontier. And uh,

2021
01:58:29,319 --> 01:58:31,680
Poland is not a small country, but in the terms

2022
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,159
we're talking about, and with the mobiles Asia potential of

2023
01:58:35,199 --> 01:58:39,000
the Soviet Union, and with the way modern kamee resolves

2024
01:58:39,000 --> 01:58:42,720
and combined arms. I mean that you know that that

2025
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:45,039
still doesn't constitute a hell of a lot of defense

2026
01:58:45,079 --> 01:58:48,520
and depth. You know, if if if you're facing off

2027
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:51,640
against uh, if you're facing off against the Soviet Union

2028
01:58:51,640 --> 01:58:53,840
in the center of Poland, rather than I mean, certainly

2029
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:56,520
better than having them. Uh. It's certainly better than having

2030
01:58:56,560 --> 01:58:59,079
him on the North German plane or something. But it's

2031
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:02,479
it's certainly less than ideal. But that's I mean, that's

2032
01:59:02,479 --> 01:59:04,319
why Barbarossa happened when it did. I don't want us

2033
01:59:04,279 --> 01:59:10,920
to get ahead of ourselves, but it uh looking looking uh,

2034
01:59:11,319 --> 01:59:15,159
looking eastward, that's exactly what the Germans saw, and that's

2035
01:59:15,199 --> 01:59:19,319
what uh I mean, I believe Victor Suberov wrote a book. UH.

2036
01:59:19,960 --> 01:59:23,880
He's a controversial guy. Not just Corey. Historians dislike him

2037
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:27,560
because they don't like the fact that he's basically a revisionist.

2038
01:59:28,079 --> 01:59:30,000
A lot of revisionists don't like him because they just

2039
01:59:30,119 --> 01:59:32,399
they disagree with some of his takes, because they think

2040
01:59:32,439 --> 01:59:36,319
he's an eccentric kind of Russian. And then there's yet

2041
01:59:36,359 --> 01:59:39,359
other people don't like him because he was a g

2042
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:44,239
r U defector, And there's always people who I mean

2043
01:59:44,239 --> 01:59:47,800
defectors really don't and people don't look favorably upon that, okay,

2044
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:49,800
I mean, regardless of how they feel about the regime

2045
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:53,239
from whence the person in question came.

2046
01:59:54,319 --> 01:59:57,760
Speaker 1: But I always questioned defectors because the first thing that

2047
01:59:57,800 --> 02:00:01,000
they do is they get debriefed by the State Department

2048
02:00:01,079 --> 02:00:04,560
of whatever country they're defecting too. Yeah, yeah, and they

2049
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:11,239
always they always end up having housing and transportation out

2050
02:00:11,279 --> 02:00:14,159
of nowhere. Yeah, how did this happen?

2051
02:00:14,640 --> 02:00:16,680
Speaker 2: No, And it's just not I I'm not saying people

2052
02:00:16,720 --> 02:00:19,479
should uh yeah, it's not an animal thing to do.

2053
02:00:19,640 --> 02:00:24,039
I mean, regardless of I mean, every every circumstance is different.

2054
02:00:24,039 --> 02:00:28,239
But yeah, I understand the suspicion people have for Misterov

2055
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:36,039
and and others. I get it. But what uh In

2056
02:00:36,039 --> 02:00:39,479
in very in very in very particular terms, what what

2057
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:44,760
Suvarov said about what What's what was in Stalin's contemplation

2058
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:51,239
in the UH weeks and months leading up to Operation Barbarosa,

2059
02:00:51,399 --> 02:00:57,159
I think is I think is inarguable the people today

2060
02:00:57,239 --> 02:01:00,960
they we we take for granted the way combined arms.

2061
02:01:01,479 --> 02:01:05,680
Modern combat resolves you know, rapidly, and uh, we take

2062
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:09,439
for granted that, you know, the France's back was kind

2063
02:01:09,479 --> 02:01:12,479
of broken in political terms by the Great War, and

2064
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:16,319
they they weren't really situated and they you know, politically

2065
02:01:16,319 --> 02:01:19,159
they were fractured. You know, they weren't really in a

2066
02:01:19,159 --> 02:01:21,920
position to wage a general war against the German Reich.

2067
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:24,439
And plus it didn't it didn't really make a lot

2068
02:01:24,439 --> 02:01:27,319
of sense. You know, the whole the whole issue with

2069
02:01:27,319 --> 02:01:30,319
the war guarantee like was to prevent what happened, which

2070
02:01:30,439 --> 02:01:33,520
was you know, Germany's assault on Poland and you know,

2071
02:01:33,560 --> 02:01:36,319
the alteration of strategic conditions in Europe. So like, once

2072
02:01:36,359 --> 02:01:40,520
that happened, it's like, okay, well the the you know,

2073
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:43,000
it's already failed in its purpose, you know, the mechanism

2074
02:01:43,039 --> 02:01:44,880
in place, you know, that threat of war. So it's

2075
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:47,600
like why white white bothered even go through with it

2076
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:50,239
at this point. So there was a lot of issues

2077
02:01:50,359 --> 02:01:55,439
presented by France's decision to declare war on Berlin. But

2078
02:01:57,319 --> 02:02:01,520
people did think with the exception of a handful of uh,

2079
02:02:04,079 --> 02:02:08,680
mostly armored commanders who were very forward thinking. I mean

2080
02:02:09,079 --> 02:02:10,680
Ramel is kind of first among them, because he's a

2081
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:12,960
real stud in this regard. But there were others too,

2082
02:02:13,039 --> 02:02:15,880
but they were the minority. My point is that even

2083
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:19,119
people who put German victory odds is all but inevitable,

2084
02:02:19,680 --> 02:02:24,119
they thought it would be a pretty long slog from

2085
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:31,720
from you know, the the Franco German frontier to the

2086
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:35,800
parish as it were, including Stalin. So you know, the

2087
02:02:35,840 --> 02:02:38,840
idea is that, you know, as Germany's like, it's Germany's

2088
02:02:38,840 --> 02:02:43,560
hemorrhaging men in the materiel on the Western front. You know,

2089
02:02:45,039 --> 02:02:47,199
this is when the Soviets will strike from the east,

2090
02:02:47,279 --> 02:02:50,479
and you know, Germany was not particularly in nineteen forty,

2091
02:02:51,479 --> 02:02:53,960
you know, the end of the onset of hostilities with

2092
02:02:54,039 --> 02:02:58,199
the with France in the UK, I mean that of

2093
02:02:58,279 --> 02:03:00,920
the onset of actual hostilities. I mean the war declaration

2094
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:03,960
had come, you know, months and months earlier, but war

2095
02:03:04,079 --> 02:03:09,880
declarations rather, but the Germany was not really in a

2096
02:03:09,880 --> 02:03:12,079
position to Germany just was not in a position to

2097
02:03:12,119 --> 02:03:14,520
wage some sort of like you know, protracted to front attrition.

2098
02:03:14,640 --> 02:03:17,399
War just wasn't. I mean, that's this is the ongoing

2099
02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:23,000
existential night mirror that Germany always had in in tournsm

2100
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:30,000
its military quagmires, or potential military quagmars. And uh, when uh,

2101
02:03:30,800 --> 02:03:36,760
when Germany smashed uh France within several weeks, you know,

2102
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:40,720
and not in lieu of you know, several months, this

2103
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:46,960
really uh, this really gave the Soviet Union pause and uh,

2104
02:03:47,039 --> 02:03:51,239
this is a when it uh became that that's when

2105
02:03:51,239 --> 02:03:56,279
Stalin realized he had to strike immediately, essentially by autumn

2106
02:03:57,119 --> 02:04:01,680
of of nineteen forty one. And that's super Off's point,

2107
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:04,199
and I accept that, and that's that's also why the

2108
02:04:04,239 --> 02:04:08,840
Germans struggle when they did. I mean, I I believe

2109
02:04:08,840 --> 02:04:11,199
with the East, and I'm not any gun of military expert,

2110
02:04:11,239 --> 02:04:15,399
but i know something about politics and uh and the

2111
02:04:15,399 --> 02:04:20,119
way governments behave at war, and I know something of

2112
02:04:20,159 --> 02:04:24,800
the historical record in this regard, and during this unfortunate

2113
02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:27,960
Ukraine situation, I made the point of people a few

2114
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:32,560
times that historically, uh, historically, the Russians wait too long

2115
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:35,520
to act and then they only deploy when they're sure

2116
02:04:35,560 --> 02:04:39,319
they can win. And traditionally the Germans, you know, in

2117
02:04:39,359 --> 02:04:41,920
the Prussians before them, but the modern German state is

2118
02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:45,520
the was the Prussian state. Traditionally they kind of jumped

2119
02:04:45,520 --> 02:04:48,000
the gun. Arguably, I think that really played out in

2120
02:04:48,079 --> 02:04:51,760
nineteen forty one. But that's that's basically what I understand it.

2121
02:04:52,640 --> 02:04:54,920
I mean, the Soviet Union was the Soviet Union was

2122
02:04:55,000 --> 02:05:00,600
an existential threat in military, if not political terms, to

2123
02:05:00,760 --> 02:05:07,760
Germany and do uh, the entire continent. That's inarguable. Uh,

2124
02:05:08,119 --> 02:05:10,119
it doesn't matter how anyone feels about aoff Hilller, it

2125
02:05:10,159 --> 02:05:12,520
doesn't matter how anyone feels about the German right. Uh.

2126
02:05:12,760 --> 02:05:15,319
That I don't see how that. I don't see how

2127
02:05:15,359 --> 02:05:18,760
that's arguable. I mean, there's there's certain variables that when

2128
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:23,439
present make not just war inevitable, but they they render

2129
02:05:23,479 --> 02:05:28,399
certain political conditions inevitable, and they they stay as parameters

2130
02:05:28,399 --> 02:05:33,199
of how states are going to interact. And a the

2131
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:40,560
a A had a one or two things is going

2132
02:05:40,600 --> 02:05:42,159
to happen. Either you would you know, like we just

2133
02:05:42,279 --> 02:05:44,319
talked about at the outset of our conversation, you know,

2134
02:05:44,359 --> 02:05:49,399
there would have been a Soviet dominated Europe. Either by

2135
02:05:49,439 --> 02:05:51,520
default it was existentially you know, it was the only

2136
02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:55,880
proximate superpower of the continent, or you know, because Stalin

2137
02:05:55,920 --> 02:05:58,520
just simply went all in and you know, absorbed Europe,

2138
02:05:58,720 --> 02:06:02,159
you know, by force of arms. You know, because the

2139
02:06:02,279 --> 02:06:04,960
historical moment was his as it were, like owing to

2140
02:06:05,000 --> 02:06:07,399
the momentum of Marcus Leninism and the kind of revolutionary

2141
02:06:07,439 --> 02:06:09,520
further they're in, you know, only to the fact that

2142
02:06:09,640 --> 02:06:12,319
you know, America still needed a few years to mobilize

2143
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:15,840
and uh, thus the you know, the opportunity would never

2144
02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:19,920
present itself again because you know, Stalin's other writing on

2145
02:06:19,960 --> 02:06:24,399
the wall too, in terms of in terms of you know,

2146
02:06:24,399 --> 02:06:26,800
what military preparadness you know, and what and what the

2147
02:06:26,840 --> 02:06:29,600
implications for that were, you know, in the in the

2148
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:33,880
in the in the in the epoch and what's you

2149
02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:36,560
know called grosser on politics, I mean, all these things

2150
02:06:37,439 --> 02:06:39,840
all all it was. It was a convergence of circumstances.

2151
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:42,920
You know, circumstances really do conspire sometimes, and that's that's

2152
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:46,600
that's the way to understand it. I believe, even if

2153
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:52,600
we take the ideological uh uh features out of the equation,

2154
02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:55,560
but you know, his ideological features, Oh to these historical

2155
02:06:56,720 --> 02:06:59,079
phenomena as well. You know, they don't emerge out of

2156
02:06:59,119 --> 02:07:04,159
nothing or just you know, they don't just manifesting people's minds,

2157
02:07:04,159 --> 02:07:07,479
you know, uh, out of the ether, you know, independent

2158
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:11,439
of historical conditions and things like that. I realize that

2159
02:07:11,439 --> 02:07:12,479
seems to reabstract.

2160
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:20,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, what how is America being drawn into the war.

2161
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:27,560
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like I said, I Roosevelt had a problem,

2162
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:29,680
and I mean the New this is. We can do

2163
02:07:29,720 --> 02:07:31,840
a dedicated show about the New Dealers if you want,

2164
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,479
and I think we should. But Roosevelt was trying to

2165
02:07:36,520 --> 02:07:40,279
insinuate America into a war with uh, with the German

2166
02:07:40,319 --> 02:07:47,199
Reich really from the moment he took office. Okay, but

2167
02:07:47,239 --> 02:07:50,920
he had a problem. Uh. Public opinion was solidly against that.

2168
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:56,680
To the as of A nineteen thirty nine it was

2169
02:07:56,720 --> 02:07:58,840
something like eighty percent. It was in that it was

2170
02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:03,600
in the high seventies eighties. People opposed a general war

2171
02:08:03,640 --> 02:08:07,720
with Germany, apps in some sort of direct assault upon America. Okay,

2172
02:08:08,079 --> 02:08:10,520
this was not the case for Japan, which is very interesting,

2173
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:13,800
but uh, for our purposes, let's let's not get into

2174
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:18,560
that right now. But and you had uh, you know,

2175
02:08:18,640 --> 02:08:24,680
Senator Nai, the NI Committee had uh had UH had

2176
02:08:24,680 --> 02:08:28,000
closed up shop in thirty six to thirty seven, having

2177
02:08:28,039 --> 02:08:30,760
concluded that you know, what are the approximate caused of

2178
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:33,880
the First World War was JT. Morgan bank rolling the

2179
02:08:33,920 --> 02:08:37,399
crown and demanding that they get, you know, a return

2180
02:08:37,439 --> 02:08:39,439
on their investment as it were, or not before to

2181
02:08:39,439 --> 02:08:43,279
eat the loss. And you know, Niu n I had

2182
02:08:43,279 --> 02:08:46,039
gone on national television and said, you know, we've concluded,

2183
02:08:46,199 --> 02:08:48,600
you know that that banking interests as well as the

2184
02:08:48,640 --> 02:08:53,920
armaments industry quite literally conspired to you know, to to

2185
02:08:53,960 --> 02:08:56,520
the greatest circumstance which they could profit, you know, to

2186
02:08:56,560 --> 02:08:59,760
the cost of you know, fifty thousand dead American boys

2187
02:08:59,840 --> 02:09:02,920
in combat, then another and equal that number, you know,

2188
02:09:03,000 --> 02:09:06,760
dead from disease, you know, shipboard and filthy trenches and things.

2189
02:09:07,159 --> 02:09:09,520
You know, people were not going to get behind Roosevelt

2190
02:09:09,560 --> 02:09:12,960
going to war with you know, white Christian Germany just

2191
02:09:13,039 --> 02:09:15,680
because you know, we don't like those Germans, but you know,

2192
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:20,000
the communists or our friends, this wasn't gonna work. So

2193
02:09:20,119 --> 02:09:24,159
what happened was so I think very interesting happened on

2194
02:09:25,600 --> 02:09:27,760
I mean, there's two key takeaways here. The first key

2195
02:09:27,800 --> 02:09:33,399
takeaway obviously that Pearl Harvard was a godsend for for

2196
02:09:33,920 --> 02:09:38,159
the New Dealers, but they still had a problem because

2197
02:09:39,079 --> 02:09:45,720
they couldn't fully insinuate that as across this belly against Germany,

2198
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:49,680
much as they would have liked to. What happened on

2199
02:09:49,720 --> 02:09:58,760
December fourth, December fourth, ninety forty one, Robert McCormick, you know,

2200
02:09:58,840 --> 02:10:02,359
he was the arch America first or owner of the

2201
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:09,319
Chicago Tribune. Somebody leaked to him what was called the

2202
02:10:09,399 --> 02:10:13,199
Rainbow five War Plan, and it was splashed all over

2203
02:10:13,560 --> 02:10:17,439
the Tribune, and then you know, every other news service

2204
02:10:17,479 --> 02:10:22,319
picked it up rapidly. The Rainbow five War Plan was

2205
02:10:22,319 --> 02:10:27,439
commissioned by Roosevelt in nineteen forty and it was a

2206
02:10:27,439 --> 02:10:31,960
real war plan. It was the war plan, and it

2207
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:35,039
was a war plan that had only one purpose, and

2208
02:10:35,079 --> 02:10:38,239
that was the wage war on Germany. It called for

2209
02:10:38,239 --> 02:10:41,319
the mobilization of ten million men, It called for an

2210
02:10:41,319 --> 02:10:45,279
invasion of Europe. It called for the mass production of

2211
02:10:45,319 --> 02:10:50,720
four engine bombers to devastate the German right from the air.

2212
02:10:52,319 --> 02:10:55,560
And it was very clear that it would take it

2213
02:10:55,680 --> 02:10:59,399
till nineteen forty three for this mobilization table to be affected,

2214
02:10:59,479 --> 02:11:03,000
at which point point the Rainbow five War Plan would

2215
02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:10,039
be implemented. And uh, General Wiedemeyer, who then I believe

2216
02:11:10,119 --> 02:11:13,239
was a captain, he was responsible for the Rainbow five

2217
02:11:13,279 --> 02:11:15,920
war Plan. Uh. Kind of the brass TACKSI but he

2218
02:11:15,960 --> 02:11:19,079
was something of a logistics genius and sort of like

2219
02:11:19,119 --> 02:11:21,640
an Omar Bradley type, but with a lot more integrity

2220
02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:25,920
and character. And we admire it had a connections to

2221
02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:29,720
America first, and we admire as he relayed to him

2222
02:11:31,199 --> 02:11:36,880
to not just his biographer, but to uh, a couple

2223
02:11:36,880 --> 02:11:41,039
of different historians who chronicled UH these events, including Tom Fleming.

2224
02:11:42,439 --> 02:11:44,680
He was visited by the FBI as well as the

2225
02:11:44,680 --> 02:11:46,680
Department of the Army, and they were accusing him of

2226
02:11:46,720 --> 02:11:53,439
the league, and UH he didn't leak it, and UH

2227
02:11:53,560 --> 02:11:56,359
he approached half Arnold in later years, and half Arnold

2228
02:11:56,359 --> 02:11:59,439
apparently told him and this became somewhat of the consents

2229
02:11:59,520 --> 02:12:05,039
of the Army that it was Roosevelt. People themselves leaked it.

2230
02:12:08,000 --> 02:12:11,840
Crazy as that might seem, but it that is really

2231
02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:14,359
what convinced Germany that they were going to be under

2232
02:12:14,359 --> 02:12:18,399
imminent assault by the United States. And if you read

2233
02:12:18,439 --> 02:12:21,119
the December eleventh speech by Hitler to the Reichs Dog,

2234
02:12:23,199 --> 02:12:25,680
the concrete incidents that he references, I mean, like I

2235
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:27,640
made the point before, Like Hitler really does not mention

2236
02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:30,359
Stalin in there, and he mentions church Will only in

2237
02:12:30,399 --> 02:12:33,800
the most dismissive terms. He talks about Roosevelt as a

2238
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:36,520
mortal enemy of the German Reich. He talks about there's

2239
02:12:36,520 --> 02:12:39,720
no reason for this war to happen, and he talks

2240
02:12:39,720 --> 02:12:44,720
about America as you know, as being as having been

2241
02:12:44,760 --> 02:12:51,439
captured by a conspiratory, a conspiratorial uh cadre whose ambition

2242
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:54,479
was and is to wage total war on Germany. And

2243
02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:58,720
this is what he was talking about, Okay, And I

2244
02:12:58,760 --> 02:13:02,199
don't see you know honestly too. I mean there were

2245
02:13:02,199 --> 02:13:05,039
a buttle to what people there are a buddle of

2246
02:13:05,039 --> 02:13:08,880
wheedam Meier and and half Arnold and Fleming himself, is

2247
02:13:08,880 --> 02:13:11,479
that you know, well nobody would do that because of

2248
02:13:11,520 --> 02:13:16,439
the national security implications. It's like, well, you know, there

2249
02:13:17,359 --> 02:13:19,680
there really was only one way from America to wage

2250
02:13:19,680 --> 02:13:21,520
war and the German Reich, and that was just you know,

2251
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:24,680
to mobilize completely and then assault Europe. You know, it's

2252
02:13:24,720 --> 02:13:27,000
not like there's some big secret either. America was gonna

2253
02:13:27,039 --> 02:13:30,279
do that the political war. The political will was there,

2254
02:13:30,319 --> 02:13:32,119
and the material and the men were there or they

2255
02:13:32,159 --> 02:13:35,159
were not. So I mean it's not as if it's

2256
02:13:35,279 --> 02:13:37,359
we're not we're not talking about the leaking of nuclear

2257
02:13:37,399 --> 02:13:42,119
secrets or something. So there's that. I mean number two, Uh,

2258
02:13:43,079 --> 02:13:45,960
there wasn't really any other way to get America into

2259
02:13:45,960 --> 02:13:49,479
the war, you know, other than telling Germany in around

2260
02:13:49,520 --> 02:13:52,920
about plausibly deniable way we're going to assault you, and

2261
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:55,920
then you know, making sure that Germany returns the serves

2262
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:58,520
that were by you know, declaring war and kind but

2263
02:13:58,560 --> 02:14:02,279
them doing it officially. You know. Then the President came

2264
02:14:02,319 --> 02:14:04,960
over for Congress and say, like, you know, a war

2265
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:06,680
has been declined. You know, war has been brought to

2266
02:14:06,720 --> 02:14:08,680
our shores. You know, we we haven't done anything to

2267
02:14:08,680 --> 02:14:10,800
provoke this. I mean, mind you, America is that war

2268
02:14:10,840 --> 02:14:13,119
with Germany for years before that, you know, and most

2269
02:14:13,159 --> 02:14:16,720
recently before the League September eleventh, that this was the

2270
02:14:16,760 --> 02:14:22,760
first September eleventh, ainety forty one. Roosevelt uh declared, U.

2271
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:25,760
Speaker 1: Un think I could think of a September eleventh before that.

2272
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:28,880
They tried to kill they tried to kill Massolinia on

2273
02:14:28,920 --> 02:14:30,199
September eleventh.

2274
02:14:29,960 --> 02:14:33,520
Speaker 2: And uh and uh September eleventh, nineteen seventy three was

2275
02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:36,760
a Pinochet's uh siezure of power. So it's one of

2276
02:14:36,760 --> 02:14:38,920
those haunted dates. In November ninth. Yeah, that's a good

2277
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:40,800
I didn't even think of that. Yeah, you're absolutely right,

2278
02:14:41,399 --> 02:14:45,279
but it uh but December uh but yeah. No. September eleventh,

2279
02:14:45,880 --> 02:14:50,439
forty one, Roosevelt declared the unrestricted UH naval war a

2280
02:14:50,479 --> 02:14:53,119
faregans Germany. You said, all German military vessels, when encountered,

2281
02:14:53,199 --> 02:14:55,920
you know, alantegotion will be fired upon. That's not deviation,

2282
02:14:56,039 --> 02:14:57,640
no war, Like I don't know what it is. You know,

2283
02:14:57,680 --> 02:15:01,399
it's like, you know, committing acts of war is a

2284
02:15:01,479 --> 02:15:07,279
constructive declaration of war. I mean, so there's all of uh,

2285
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:13,079
all of them, all of these things. I mean that

2286
02:15:13,239 --> 02:15:17,640
was what because any people, this is what's fasting about,

2287
02:15:17,680 --> 02:15:21,840
like kind of pop history, like because that's what people say.

2288
02:15:22,039 --> 02:15:23,359
You know, you can bring up to people if you

2289
02:15:23,399 --> 02:15:27,720
sell the Rainbow five in case to people, they were like,

2290
02:15:27,760 --> 02:15:29,880
boll but Pearl Harbor happened. That's what broad American in

2291
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:31,720
the war. It's like, yeah, but nobody knew Pearl Harbor

2292
02:15:31,840 --> 02:15:34,119
was gonna happen. I think it. I think it appeared inevitable.

2293
02:15:34,159 --> 02:15:36,359
That's a whole other issue. But the point is too,

2294
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:38,880
that doesn't get into war in Germany. I mean, despite

2295
02:15:38,880 --> 02:15:42,000
what Rose's people were trying to sell for years, like, oh,

2296
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:44,960
anything that happens in Tokyo is coming from Berlin. You know,

2297
02:15:45,039 --> 02:15:48,359
those those little yellow Japanese there there aren't few years

2298
02:15:48,359 --> 02:15:50,439
it's the Germans anyway telling them what to do. Like

2299
02:15:50,479 --> 02:15:53,359
nobody believed that, and nobody particularly wanted to you know,

2300
02:15:53,399 --> 02:15:56,119
wage war on Germany just because you know, I mean

2301
02:15:56,159 --> 02:16:00,520
it's uh, no matter what Japan did it that wasn't

2302
02:16:00,520 --> 02:16:04,600
gonna somehow, you know, that wasn't gonna somehow allow the

2303
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:06,880
the New Deal regime to you know, gets war declaration

2304
02:16:07,039 --> 02:16:09,199
into Germany. But jam we were the host of Congress,

2305
02:16:09,199 --> 02:16:10,800
and like I said, we got to look at the

2306
02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:13,239
political climate, you know, look at the NI Committee, like

2307
02:16:13,319 --> 02:16:15,720
look at what people were thinking about, Like we talked

2308
02:16:15,720 --> 02:16:18,079
about last time we held one of these discussions, you know,

2309
02:16:18,159 --> 02:16:20,680
at like World War One was viewed as it was

2310
02:16:20,720 --> 02:16:22,960
viewed as basically the Iraq War of the time. Like

2311
02:16:23,039 --> 02:16:25,640
people did not trust the government anymore. You know, they

2312
02:16:25,720 --> 02:16:27,960
view World War One as a con you know, they

2313
02:16:28,079 --> 02:16:33,479
view they what any anytime some war department type or

2314
02:16:33,520 --> 02:16:36,239
some or some state department type you know, came on

2315
02:16:36,319 --> 02:16:38,760
the radio in those days and started to say, you know,

2316
02:16:38,760 --> 02:16:41,479
trying to bang the war drums. You know, people said, like,

2317
02:16:41,520 --> 02:16:43,520
you know, we're not you know, going to who We

2318
02:16:43,559 --> 02:16:46,520
won't be fooled again, you know, I mean that people

2319
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:49,920
they've got this idea that uh, they got this idea

2320
02:16:49,959 --> 02:16:51,959
of you know, because they see like these this kind

2321
02:16:51,959 --> 02:16:56,239
of ticker tape parade footage of h and things, uh,

2322
02:16:56,639 --> 02:16:58,920
you know, like the sailor kissing the pretty nerves and

2323
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:01,200
stuff that like, oh, World War two is when everybody

2324
02:17:01,319 --> 02:17:03,760
was you know, you've got war fever and jumped on

2325
02:17:03,799 --> 02:17:08,639
the bandwagon. Like that's not the case, you know at all,

2326
02:17:08,879 --> 02:17:12,680
and uh it uh it was not easy for the

2327
02:17:12,719 --> 02:17:16,159
New Dealers to to get a general war declaration against

2328
02:17:16,200 --> 02:17:20,000
the German Reich out of this. Like it really wasn't

2329
02:17:20,520 --> 02:17:22,520
and there wasn't. It's not as if you know, the

2330
02:17:22,559 --> 02:17:26,280
Germans are very cunning too. Uh. Hitler made sure that

2331
02:17:26,479 --> 02:17:29,159
there was not gonna be some kind of some kind

2332
02:17:29,159 --> 02:17:32,239
of Lucidania event. Like one of the things that one

2333
02:17:32,239 --> 02:17:34,200
of the early clefts between him and Raider, you know,

2334
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:37,120
it was the gross odmoral later replaced by Donne's. I mean,

2335
02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:39,000
there's a lot of things that led to that dismissal,

2336
02:17:39,079 --> 02:17:42,120
but Raider was saying, like, you know, look like if

2337
02:17:42,159 --> 02:17:45,440
my if my, if my men encounter American vessels, we're

2338
02:17:45,440 --> 02:17:47,639
gonna we're gonna fire on them, and Hitler's like, yea,

2339
02:17:47,639 --> 02:17:49,719
absolutely or not. You're not gonna do anything unless you're

2340
02:17:49,719 --> 02:17:51,719
defending yourself. You know, we're not gonna give We're not

2341
02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:54,280
gonna give the Americans, you know, some some pretext to

2342
02:17:54,559 --> 02:17:56,799
you know, to declare war on us. I mean that

2343
02:17:57,120 --> 02:17:59,520
the Germans are very content of this, you know, like

2344
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:04,200
it wasn't it wasn't uh, it wasn't something that was

2345
02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:08,520
was beyond their comprehension. And despite what how the al

2346
02:18:08,600 --> 02:18:11,879
Hitler himself and the okw or are presented, these were

2347
02:18:11,879 --> 02:18:14,360
not like provincial guys who didn't understand, you know, the

2348
02:18:14,360 --> 02:18:16,559
way that America did business in terms of war and

2349
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:20,399
peace questions. I mean, they fought America not you know,

2350
02:18:20,680 --> 02:18:23,840
just you know over twenty years before and in historical time.

2351
02:18:23,879 --> 02:18:26,760
That's dropping the bucket. You know, this isn't this isn't

2352
02:18:26,760 --> 02:18:30,520
something uh, this isn't something that that that was not

2353
02:18:30,719 --> 02:18:31,319
on their mind.

2354
02:18:33,399 --> 02:18:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I remember twenty years ago like it

2355
02:18:36,319 --> 02:18:36,920
was yesterday.

2356
02:18:37,079 --> 02:18:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly nine eleven, Yeah, exactly exact. Yeah, So

2357
02:18:42,040 --> 02:18:43,959
people people act like, among other things, they act like

2358
02:18:44,000 --> 02:18:47,200
the Germans were ignorant or provincial number one, but also yeah,

2359
02:18:47,239 --> 02:18:49,280
they act like, uh, they act like you know, the

2360
02:18:49,319 --> 02:18:52,280
Great War was one hundred years previous or something, you

2361
02:18:52,319 --> 02:18:56,280
know it the uh it and plus two. I mean

2362
02:18:56,280 --> 02:18:59,680
it the German Uh, the German general staff was full

2363
02:18:59,680 --> 02:19:02,159
of guy who literally fought the US army. You know,

2364
02:19:02,239 --> 02:19:05,120
I mean it's this wasn't uh, this wasn't something remote

2365
02:19:05,159 --> 02:19:06,680
to them. You know, they knew what America could do.

2366
02:19:06,760 --> 02:19:09,520
They they fought. They fought it, you know, I mean it, Uh,

2367
02:19:09,680 --> 02:19:12,280
it was not theoretical. They had no illusions about this.

2368
02:19:14,200 --> 02:19:17,799
Speaker 1: So Hitler declares war on the United States. And then

2369
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:21,440
how does the United States enter into the battle officially?

2370
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:25,959
Speaker 2: I mean really for all practical purposes, I mean, America

2371
02:19:26,000 --> 02:19:28,159
there was no This is interesting too, because I mean

2372
02:19:28,200 --> 02:19:30,280
you had like the as everybody knows, there were the

2373
02:19:30,360 --> 02:19:36,319
do little raids over over Japan, uh wherein you know,

2374
02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:39,680
the pilots of these these bomber craft literally had to

2375
02:19:39,680 --> 02:19:43,000
bail out because they couldn't refuel and then be you know,

2376
02:19:43,040 --> 02:19:47,120
retrieved later. America did that because it was view as imperative,

2377
02:19:47,120 --> 02:19:49,280
you know, kind of like return the serve after Pearl Harbor.

2378
02:19:49,719 --> 02:19:52,959
You know, America didn't actually engage at Wehrmacht until forty three,

2379
02:19:53,120 --> 02:19:55,639
like in North Africa, you know, and that was that's

2380
02:19:55,680 --> 02:20:00,600
fascinating too because you had Darlan who was uh I'm

2381
02:20:00,600 --> 02:20:03,159
trying to remember what his formal title was. I mean

2382
02:20:03,159 --> 02:20:05,959
he was basically the he was the equivalent like the

2383
02:20:05,959 --> 02:20:09,200
military a procurator or like what would have been in

2384
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:12,239
in the German rank, the gall layer of a and

2385
02:20:12,479 --> 02:20:15,079
he was the military district commander of you know, uh,

2386
02:20:15,239 --> 02:20:20,120
French Algeria basically okay, and that it was French force

2387
02:20:20,120 --> 02:20:24,760
Operation Torch. Uh. When America landed in North Africa, it

2388
02:20:24,840 --> 02:20:28,639
was uh they traded ustile fire with uh, with fascist

2389
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:31,719
French forces, you know, not with the Merrimacks, and uh

2390
02:20:32,760 --> 02:20:36,959
the uh Casserine was the first uh it was the

2391
02:20:36,959 --> 02:20:41,719
first engagement uh with the Averga Corps and America got uh.

2392
02:20:42,079 --> 02:20:48,159
America was handily defeated. It wasn't until El Guitar months

2393
02:20:48,239 --> 02:20:52,159
uh months subsequent that uh, that America was able to

2394
02:20:52,200 --> 02:20:54,559
attack like a victory over German forces on the board

2395
02:20:54,559 --> 02:20:56,959
as it were. And that was that's put Paden on

2396
02:20:57,000 --> 02:20:59,479
the map. Interestingly, like I don't know, I don't know

2397
02:20:59,479 --> 02:21:01,479
if people to watch the movie Pat and like when

2398
02:21:01,479 --> 02:21:03,399
I was a kid and I'm sure when you were

2399
02:21:03,399 --> 02:21:05,520
a kid, you know, it was always on TV, like

2400
02:21:05,719 --> 02:21:08,719
we Pad with George Scott and like, yeah, yeah, which

2401
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:12,680
theirs I ever bought? Oh wow, okay, yeah, I mean

2402
02:21:12,719 --> 02:21:14,719
it's it's a dope movie. It's my dad's favorite movie.

2403
02:21:14,799 --> 02:21:18,360
So I've seen it a bunch. But you know, they

2404
02:21:18,399 --> 02:21:21,879
get they get uh, they get into that. You know,

2405
02:21:21,920 --> 02:21:24,159
that was that was Patton's big coup is that. You know,

2406
02:21:24,200 --> 02:21:30,079
we he defeated the Africa Cordial guitar and the I

2407
02:21:30,120 --> 02:21:31,920
mean the writing was on the wall already, you know,

2408
02:21:32,040 --> 02:21:35,440
like rama wasn't terrible, it was in terrible trouble. But uh,

2409
02:21:35,559 --> 02:21:37,440
but just the same I mean the average or even

2410
02:21:37,440 --> 02:21:39,360
on their worst day were I mean they were, they

2411
02:21:39,360 --> 02:21:43,040
were incredibly freaking squared away. It's not any uh, that's

2412
02:21:43,079 --> 02:21:47,120
not any uh, that's not any small thing. But I'll uh,

2413
02:21:48,120 --> 02:21:51,200
if you want to get into uh, if you want

2414
02:21:51,200 --> 02:21:54,360
to get into the uh, if you want to get

2415
02:21:54,399 --> 02:21:56,360
into the US War in Africa, on the US War

2416
02:21:56,479 --> 02:21:59,079
like in on in in the West, I would love

2417
02:21:59,120 --> 02:22:00,959
to do that, but I liked to do another dedicated

2418
02:22:01,000 --> 02:22:02,719
hour today. We even do it tomorrow if you want,

2419
02:22:02,719 --> 02:22:04,079
But frankly, you want to brush it up on my

2420
02:22:04,120 --> 02:22:06,079
nose if that's okay, Yeah.

2421
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:07,840
Speaker 1: That's yeah, Yeah, that's fine. Do you want to hit

2422
02:22:07,879 --> 02:22:09,559
anything else before we go?

2423
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:11,639
Speaker 2: Now? Unless you have any more questions?

2424
02:22:11,639 --> 02:22:14,920
Speaker 1: Man, no, I think that's enough for people to uh

2425
02:22:15,239 --> 02:22:15,959
people deal with.

2426
02:22:16,440 --> 02:22:19,360
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, let's let's hit up the next time. Though

2427
02:22:19,399 --> 02:22:20,879
it doesn't have to be tomorrow, but I'm willing to

2428
02:22:20,920 --> 02:22:22,680
go tomorrow if you want. But yeah, whenever you want to,

2429
02:22:22,799 --> 02:22:25,760
let's hit up the uh the opposite of like actual

2430
02:22:25,799 --> 02:22:28,760
hostilities in terms of America engaging with the Wehrmacht and

2431
02:22:28,840 --> 02:22:29,479
go from there.

2432
02:22:29,959 --> 02:22:33,159
Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds good. Remind everybody about your substack and

2433
02:22:33,200 --> 02:22:34,559
we'll get out of it, sir.

2434
02:22:34,559 --> 02:22:39,600
Speaker 2: Indeed, my substick is real Thomas seven seven seven dot

2435
02:22:39,680 --> 02:22:43,200
substick dot com. I put long form up there. I've

2436
02:22:43,200 --> 02:22:46,920
gotten a podcast down there, and it's only five dollars

2437
02:22:46,920 --> 02:22:49,600
a month. Then, so even if you're a hobo, you

2438
02:22:49,639 --> 02:22:52,360
can afford it. Maybe you're a hobo you shouldn't be

2439
02:22:52,399 --> 02:22:56,479
signing up for substicks, but uh I, but my point

2440
02:22:56,520 --> 02:23:03,159
is that it's very affordable. I I'm active on Twitter

2441
02:23:03,479 --> 02:23:07,559
at number seven h o m as seven seven seven.

2442
02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:12,280
I'm active on gab at real underscore Thomas seven seven seven,

2443
02:23:13,159 --> 02:23:17,200
and I'm all over YouTube's now thanks to people like

2444
02:23:17,239 --> 02:23:20,799
my friend Pete, who uh who put me on here,

2445
02:23:21,680 --> 02:23:24,040
which is dope, and moving forward, I may get my

2446
02:23:24,079 --> 02:23:26,559
own YouTube channel. I haven't decided yet, but I gotta

2447
02:23:26,639 --> 02:23:28,639
I gotta catch up on my uh. I gotta get

2448
02:23:28,680 --> 02:23:30,639
you on my print long form before I make any

2449
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:34,799
other moves. But at any event, I can't thank you enough, Pete.

2450
02:23:34,799 --> 02:23:37,079
I mean, I really enjoy these conversations and I'm really

2451
02:23:37,440 --> 02:23:39,520
just on their own terms and we're friends, but also

2452
02:23:39,600 --> 02:23:42,280
I really really appreciate the exposure. It's dope, So thank

2453
02:23:42,319 --> 02:23:42,879
you very much.

2454
02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:46,920
Speaker 1: No problem at all, until maybe tomorrow that would be great.

2455
02:23:49,079 --> 02:23:51,079
And we're back with Thomas seven seven seven.

2456
02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:53,760
Speaker 2: How are you doing, sir. I'm doing very well, Pete.

2457
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:56,319
Thanks for having me back. I'm very much enjoying these,

2458
02:23:56,399 --> 02:24:00,760
uh these sessions that we're having. And thanks for commenting

2459
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:02,799
me the hast two days. I was really kind of sideline.

2460
02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:06,280
I was quite sick, so thanks for the comedy in

2461
02:24:06,319 --> 02:24:07,440
the delay, and I'm sorry about that.

2462
02:24:08,079 --> 02:24:12,639
Speaker 1: No problem at all. So last time you had touched

2463
02:24:12,639 --> 02:24:15,280
on Pearl Harbor, you had mentioned it for a second

2464
02:24:15,319 --> 02:24:17,559
and then a couple comments came in and said, hey,

2465
02:24:17,639 --> 02:24:21,639
ask Thomas about Pearl Harbor and how that plays into

2466
02:24:21,959 --> 02:24:25,440
the whole war effort both theaters. So you want to

2467
02:24:25,479 --> 02:24:29,799
talk a little bit about Pearl Harbor and did they

2468
02:24:29,840 --> 02:24:32,319
see it coming, did they know what was coming? Was it?

2469
02:24:32,479 --> 02:24:33,280
Did they cause it?

2470
02:24:34,079 --> 02:24:35,959
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of ways we can look at that,

2471
02:24:36,600 --> 02:24:38,719
and I don't want to go too far outside the scope.

2472
02:24:38,760 --> 02:24:44,200
But Admiral Kimmel, husband Kimmel, that was his name, husband Kimmel.

2473
02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:47,159
I mean, you know how and then Epoch like particularly

2474
02:24:47,200 --> 02:24:52,479
waspy people had very strange memes, you know. Admiral Kimmel

2475
02:24:52,639 --> 02:24:58,840
was was one of those types. And the the big criticism,

2476
02:24:58,920 --> 02:25:01,399
I mean a lot of people claim, particularly on the right,

2477
02:25:01,760 --> 02:25:04,559
you know that doesn't the right they claim that, well,

2478
02:25:05,159 --> 02:25:07,319
you know, the Pacific Fleet was deployed as it was

2479
02:25:07,360 --> 02:25:10,520
at Pearl Harbor essentially to bait the Japanese into assaulting it.

2480
02:25:12,440 --> 02:25:14,440
I don't think that was true. I mean, yeah, it

2481
02:25:14,479 --> 02:25:17,440
was a provocative act to deploy that way, but I

2482
02:25:17,440 --> 02:25:20,200
don't I do not think that. I don't think Roosevelt

2483
02:25:20,200 --> 02:25:21,639
the I don't think some of their wells, I don't

2484
02:25:22,680 --> 02:25:24,600
I don't I don't think Morgan though. I don't think

2485
02:25:24,639 --> 02:25:27,479
their idea was We're going to deploy in this kind

2486
02:25:27,479 --> 02:25:30,559
of a ray and you know the Japanese is gonna

2487
02:25:30,559 --> 02:25:32,799
assault Hawaii and that that's that's gonna get us into

2488
02:25:32,799 --> 02:25:35,840
the war. I don't think that for a few reasons.

2489
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:39,920
But back to Admiral Kimmel, he himself has really hung

2490
02:25:39,920 --> 02:25:43,959
out to dry and he was actually uh courts marcaled

2491
02:25:44,600 --> 02:25:50,600
and he was acquitted, but he Kimmel was really he

2492
02:25:50,639 --> 02:25:55,120
was really kind of burning effigy, and that wasn't entirely misplaced.

2493
02:25:55,159 --> 02:25:58,440
I I'm not a military vet, but I do know

2494
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:03,360
some things about how institutions work and that are scaled,

2495
02:26:03,479 --> 02:26:07,799
like you know, institutions that scale. Granted, I'm talking about

2496
02:26:07,799 --> 02:26:11,520
the private sector, not the military. But I read this

2497
02:26:11,520 --> 02:26:16,639
whole treatment of this book called Groupthink, which it's it's

2498
02:26:16,680 --> 02:26:19,280
one part kind of military sociology, and it deals with

2499
02:26:19,280 --> 02:26:22,120
the cub missile crisis, it deals with Pearl Harbor. It's

2500
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:25,799
basically about a collective decision making can lead to very

2501
02:26:26,440 --> 02:26:30,600
very productive or very disastrous outcomes depending on the present

2502
02:26:30,639 --> 02:26:36,079
reactions to certain variables, depending upon the trust and confidence

2503
02:26:36,239 --> 02:26:38,879
among the men in the group. I mean all those things, okay,

2504
02:26:38,920 --> 02:26:42,040
but one of the case studies was Pearl Harbor, Okay,

2505
02:26:42,680 --> 02:26:47,040
and the way this other cast though, the kind of

2506
02:26:47,079 --> 02:26:50,600
culture of these officers and their wives and Hawaii, it

2507
02:26:50,639 --> 02:26:52,840
almost struck me as you ever see in the old

2508
02:26:53,440 --> 02:26:56,120
you ever seen Apocalypse now Reducs where there's the there's

2509
02:26:56,120 --> 02:26:58,959
a deleted scene where these kinds of French aristocrats, Yeah,

2510
02:26:59,120 --> 02:27:01,559
and they're like pretending like the war's not really going on,

2511
02:27:01,680 --> 02:27:03,680
and you know, they're still hosting their dinner parties and

2512
02:27:03,719 --> 02:27:06,680
talking about, you know, the potential of a colored revolt

2513
02:27:06,719 --> 02:27:10,959
and stuff. It almost seems like that, like Kimmelin and

2514
02:27:11,079 --> 02:27:15,239
these these kinds of flag officers, they they knew something

2515
02:27:15,319 --> 02:27:18,280
terrible might happen, but it's it's just, well, we're the

2516
02:27:18,360 --> 02:27:21,479
United States Navy. What could possibly happen? So I think

2517
02:27:21,520 --> 02:27:27,120
there was an aspect of that, but everything everything Washington

2518
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:32,879
and the War Department, and Roosevelt's the many most trusted

2519
02:27:33,680 --> 02:27:36,040
and the men who most wanted to insinuate America into

2520
02:27:36,040 --> 02:27:41,000
war around you know, in his inner circle. They kept

2521
02:27:41,000 --> 02:27:44,479
coming back to the fact they were singularly focused on Germany. Okay,

2522
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:49,479
they just were, And there was talk and I'll get

2523
02:27:49,479 --> 02:27:52,040
to this in a minute. That ultimately led to real

2524
02:27:52,079 --> 02:27:56,840
intrigues when it became clear that there just wasn't a

2525
02:27:56,840 --> 02:27:59,319
political will in America to go to war with Germany,

2526
02:28:00,079 --> 02:28:02,479
you know, just whether that you know, saved the UK

2527
02:28:03,000 --> 02:28:06,719
or to defend democracy or to or to or to

2528
02:28:06,760 --> 02:28:10,959
fight against fascism. When it became clear and when the polls,

2529
02:28:11,040 --> 02:28:13,079
when the poll i mean, government by pole really kind

2530
02:28:13,079 --> 02:28:17,920
of began under Roosevelt, okay, and consistently about fully about

2531
02:28:17,920 --> 02:28:22,879
eighty percent of Americans as late as April nineteen forty one,

2532
02:28:23,159 --> 02:28:25,760
like we're opposed going to war with Germany. Japan it

2533
02:28:25,799 --> 02:28:28,360
was a little more complicated, okay. People did not like

2534
02:28:28,399 --> 02:28:30,959
the Japanese. Some of this was for racial reasons, some

2535
02:28:31,000 --> 02:28:35,159
of this was for there was tensions between America and

2536
02:28:35,239 --> 02:28:40,600
Japan that definitely did not need to approach anything that

2537
02:28:41,239 --> 02:28:44,479
led to this horrible war. But there's real tensions between

2538
02:28:44,479 --> 02:28:47,319
American Japan. It was not only American Germany, but still

2539
02:28:47,840 --> 02:28:52,360
there was a solid majority against that that was opposed to,

2540
02:28:52,799 --> 02:28:56,239
you know, pursuing a policy of aggressive posturing, let alone

2541
02:28:56,239 --> 02:28:59,040
war with Japan. But they began to be talk in

2542
02:28:59,159 --> 02:29:03,000
New Deald Quarter of uh provoking a war in Japan

2543
02:29:03,079 --> 02:29:05,680
as a back door to war with Germany, especially after

2544
02:29:05,680 --> 02:29:09,159
the Tripartite Packed for obvious reasons, which for those who

2545
02:29:09,159 --> 02:29:14,000
don't know, was a pack between Germany, Italy and and

2546
02:29:14,040 --> 02:29:16,799
the and UH and in the Empire of Japan that

2547
02:29:17,520 --> 02:29:20,760
if any if anyone was UH was attacked, the other

2548
02:29:20,760 --> 02:29:23,200
two would would would would come to the would come

2549
02:29:23,200 --> 02:29:24,879
to the aid of the other, you know, basically a

2550
02:29:24,959 --> 02:29:27,879
mutual defense pack. But it was framed in defensive terms. Okay,

2551
02:29:27,920 --> 02:29:30,360
not that that means anything in power politics and actual

2552
02:29:30,479 --> 02:29:34,920
military terms, but in political terms it's highly significant. But

2553
02:29:35,000 --> 02:29:39,000
in any event, I don't believe given that climate, it

2554
02:29:39,120 --> 02:29:42,280
just does not seem credible to me that, you know,

2555
02:29:43,280 --> 02:29:46,840
Kimmel's command, the four and the forces under his command

2556
02:29:47,399 --> 02:29:50,120
were deliberately a raid in order to provoke a Japanese attack.

2557
02:29:50,159 --> 02:29:56,639
I don't believe that, And especially considering you know, the

2558
02:29:56,680 --> 02:29:59,559
we we talked about the Rainbow five League and our

2559
02:29:59,760 --> 02:30:03,319
last segment, and the reason why people generally don't know

2560
02:30:03,399 --> 02:30:05,360
about that and the reason why it kind of became

2561
02:30:05,399 --> 02:30:08,120
a nullody is because Pearl Harbor made it a nullody.

2562
02:30:08,680 --> 02:30:12,280
It was not a nullody. An actual it caused an

2563
02:30:12,280 --> 02:30:15,600
effect term, because that's to provoke the fear of the

2564
02:30:15,639 --> 02:30:19,040
Third Reich. Eof Hitler did declare war against America. I mean,

2565
02:30:19,079 --> 02:30:21,040
it was. It was many things too, was the Atlantic Charter.

2566
02:30:21,520 --> 02:30:24,239
It was the fact that America was literally bankrolling the

2567
02:30:24,280 --> 02:30:27,799
communist war against against the Third Reich. It was it

2568
02:30:27,840 --> 02:30:33,120
was because you know, as of September eleventh, nineteen forty one,

2569
02:30:33,280 --> 02:30:36,319
America had quite literally declared a naval war against Germany.

2570
02:30:36,360 --> 02:30:38,680
I mean, with all these things, but Rainbow five was

2571
02:30:38,719 --> 02:30:44,879
really what pushed the German the OKW gearing raider, the

2572
02:30:44,920 --> 02:30:48,600
fear himself, like the entire control group of the Third

2573
02:30:48,639 --> 02:30:53,440
Reich's military decision making apparatus. This is what pushed them

2574
02:30:53,479 --> 02:30:57,200
towards war with the United States. This is what put

2575
02:30:57,239 --> 02:31:01,719
them over that Rubicon is at war. Okay, But in

2576
02:31:01,799 --> 02:31:06,319
terms of American perception, in American public opinion, it didn't

2577
02:31:06,319 --> 02:31:10,000
figure because the Rainbow five leagues happened in December fourth,

2578
02:31:10,559 --> 02:31:12,319
not even three days later. You know, two and a

2579
02:31:12,319 --> 02:31:16,920
half days later, Pearl Harbor happens. And after Pearl Harbor happened,

2580
02:31:17,040 --> 02:31:20,840
you know, war fever jumps off. Americans are outraged, they're frightened,

2581
02:31:21,319 --> 02:31:23,600
Roosevelt goes into radio and declares that, you know, the

2582
02:31:23,680 --> 02:31:25,760
jaban he was sold in Pearl Harbor was planned by

2583
02:31:25,760 --> 02:31:28,360
Adolf Hitler, which is ridiculous in all kinds of ways.

2584
02:31:28,840 --> 02:31:31,719
Hitler was a surprise as Roosevelt. At Pearl Harbor. There

2585
02:31:31,799 --> 02:31:34,520
was not good to There was good offices, there was

2586
02:31:34,680 --> 02:31:37,159
between Tokyo and Brilliant. There was not what we consider

2587
02:31:37,200 --> 02:31:39,559
good diplomacy and good communication. And they're sure as hell

2588
02:31:39,639 --> 02:31:42,479
was not military coordination at all. And this was not

2589
02:31:42,559 --> 02:31:44,639
just going to the distance of the day and in

2590
02:31:44,719 --> 02:31:49,079
the absence of telecom tech that we take for granted. Okay,

2591
02:31:49,159 --> 02:31:55,399
that's that's that's that's absurd. But when the UH getting

2592
02:31:55,479 --> 02:32:01,520
back to UH, getting back to UH Pearl Harbor and

2593
02:32:01,520 --> 02:32:10,920
and the political intrigues surrounding it on UH. Also on

2594
02:32:10,959 --> 02:32:16,840
December fourth incident UH simultaneous with you know, the same

2595
02:32:16,920 --> 02:32:20,559
day as Rainbow five was leaked, something very very strange

2596
02:32:20,639 --> 02:32:26,760
happened at the UH. The Manila waterfront, the Philippines was

2597
02:32:26,799 --> 02:32:30,559
America's largest overseas holding in Asia. People may or may

2598
02:32:30,559 --> 02:32:32,360
not know that. That's why the that's why the assault

2599
02:32:32,360 --> 02:32:35,440
on the Philippines was such a disaster and there's a

2600
02:32:35,520 --> 02:32:37,879
huge amount of casualties and and and in tens of

2601
02:32:37,879 --> 02:32:41,239
thousand that people suffered horribly, including of course you know

2602
02:32:41,760 --> 02:32:44,799
a huge number of American servicemen. Just awful stuff. But

2603
02:32:46,840 --> 02:32:53,600
on December fourth, uh Admiral Hart who was uh who's

2604
02:32:53,639 --> 02:32:57,399
the commander of the Menil Lake Garrison and the Minula Waterfront,

2605
02:32:57,440 --> 02:33:00,879
I think it was known as here a young lieutenant

2606
02:33:00,959 --> 02:33:07,600
named Kemp Tali to take command of an obsolescent schooner

2607
02:33:09,120 --> 02:33:13,520
called the Lanikai or the Atlantikai, to outfit it with

2608
02:33:13,639 --> 02:33:19,239
a Spanish American war Eric cannon, a couple of machine guns.

2609
02:33:20,239 --> 02:33:23,879
He swore in about half a dozen Filipinos as temporary

2610
02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:33,879
as temporary enlisted in the US Navy, and Lieutenant camp

2611
02:33:33,959 --> 02:33:38,559
Tally was ordered to pilot this schooner to the coast

2612
02:33:38,559 --> 02:33:41,520
of Cameron Bay, just off of what was Japanese territorial

2613
02:33:41,559 --> 02:33:44,280
waters because Cameron Bay is and what's now Vietnam and

2614
02:33:44,280 --> 02:33:49,000
the Japanese were occupying it. Then Kemp Tally was given

2615
02:33:49,000 --> 02:33:51,079
an envelope and he was told to open it upon

2616
02:33:51,159 --> 02:33:55,719
reaching his objective, which was immediately outside the continue was

2617
02:33:55,760 --> 02:34:00,799
on at Cameron Bay, Okay. He got these orders in

2618
02:34:00,840 --> 02:34:06,799
December fourth. On December seventh was when Tally undertook this

2619
02:34:06,840 --> 02:34:11,399
effort because the Atlanta Kai had been outfitted for the purpose.

2620
02:34:12,920 --> 02:34:15,440
And before he reached his destination, he was called back

2621
02:34:16,719 --> 02:34:19,840
to the Manila waterfront because the assaultant Pearl Harbor had happened,

2622
02:34:21,719 --> 02:34:24,879
and Case Orange or Plant Orange, which was the code

2623
02:34:24,920 --> 02:34:28,600
name for war with Japan was he was informed that

2624
02:34:28,639 --> 02:34:33,479
this was now underway. Okay, destroy the envelope, destroy the message.

2625
02:34:33,520 --> 02:34:39,239
He did. Years later, Admiral hart I, even if I

2626
02:34:39,319 --> 02:34:41,879
refused to talk about this for a couple of decades,

2627
02:34:43,360 --> 02:34:48,040
Tali told h Thomas Fleming, who wrote an incredible history

2628
02:34:48,040 --> 02:34:51,159
of the New Deal regime in the Royal Hill administration,

2629
02:34:51,200 --> 02:34:55,040
as well as World War Two and Roosevelt's role there

2630
02:34:55,079 --> 02:35:01,040
in He actually interviewed Camp Tally by time A Heart

2631
02:35:01,079 --> 02:35:06,719
was dead. Heart told Tali has Heart point blank. He said,

2632
02:35:07,559 --> 02:35:10,760
was I sent on a suicide mission to provoke essentially

2633
02:35:10,840 --> 02:35:13,120
amounted to a Gulf of Tonkin kind of incident with

2634
02:35:13,280 --> 02:35:17,760
the Japanese Imperial Navy. And Heart said, well, why else

2635
02:35:17,760 --> 02:35:20,000
would you? Why else would you have been deployed there?

2636
02:35:20,520 --> 02:35:22,360
You know, He's like, I can't tell you for certain

2637
02:35:22,479 --> 02:35:24,520
because I didn't read the message I gave you because

2638
02:35:24,520 --> 02:35:26,079
it was from the President and it was you know,

2639
02:35:26,440 --> 02:35:29,559
eyes only or whatever the military equivalent is. But why

2640
02:35:29,639 --> 02:35:31,520
else would you be sent there other than as a decoy,

2641
02:35:32,239 --> 02:35:38,440
you know, So take that for what it's worth, because

2642
02:35:38,479 --> 02:35:41,360
I mean again, the Roosevelt had a real problem on

2643
02:35:41,479 --> 02:35:47,280
a the Placentia Bay conference with the Roosevelt between Roosevelt

2644
02:35:47,280 --> 02:35:52,200
and Churchill, that was suppose sly Roosevelt's big coup, you know. Uh,

2645
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:57,879
the the UK's war effort was not going well against

2646
02:35:57,920 --> 02:35:59,680
the Third Reich, I mean to say the least. I mean,

2647
02:35:59,719 --> 02:36:02,479
it was a disaster. That's when the Atlantic Charter was

2648
02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:05,719
declared and Roosevelt said, you know, we stand with Britain,

2649
02:36:05,879 --> 02:36:09,559
with Great Britain and the Atlantic Charter, you know, set

2650
02:36:09,600 --> 02:36:12,200
out a series of points, almost will sony and sounding

2651
02:36:12,239 --> 02:36:14,840
points about what the post war democratic order would look

2652
02:36:14,920 --> 02:36:18,120
like once fascism was defeated, which to me again is

2653
02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:20,319
like another declaration of war in all but name against

2654
02:36:20,319 --> 02:36:26,319
the Third Reich and he The minutes are of the

2655
02:36:26,360 --> 02:36:29,760
of the of the conference between Churchill and Roosevelt as

2656
02:36:29,799 --> 02:36:34,520
a documented that Roosevelt said that he was going to

2657
02:36:34,559 --> 02:36:37,840
continue to wage war against the German Reich without declaring war,

2658
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:40,559
and that he was continued he was going to continue

2659
02:36:40,639 --> 02:36:44,639
to provoke the Third Reich in the declaring war in

2660
02:36:44,680 --> 02:36:53,520
the United States. The pole returns after the Placentia Bay Summit,

2661
02:36:53,639 --> 02:36:58,360
after the Atlantic Charter, after this whole media push for

2662
02:36:58,479 --> 02:37:00,879
you know, this this kind of anti face, just crusade,

2663
02:37:02,079 --> 02:37:04,600
there was still solidly between seventy and eighty percent of

2664
02:37:04,639 --> 02:37:07,440
the the the of the country opposed entering a war

2665
02:37:07,479 --> 02:37:11,000
with Germany, and about six between sixty and seventy percent

2666
02:37:11,559 --> 02:37:15,440
opposed war with Germany, even if the UK fell and

2667
02:37:15,520 --> 02:37:21,879
even if the Soviet Union was defeated. And incidentally, I

2668
02:37:21,959 --> 02:37:24,799
believe and George Kennon kind of danced around this issue,

2669
02:37:26,200 --> 02:37:28,520
but with Kennon wanted to kind of read between the lines.

2670
02:37:30,319 --> 02:37:34,600
Roosevelt never particularly went over great with Catholic voters for

2671
02:37:34,719 --> 02:37:42,239
obvious reasons. But once he uh once, after after the

2672
02:37:42,639 --> 02:37:47,840
after the the EF, the Barbarossa operation ensued, you know,

2673
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:54,440
June twenty second, forty one, and Roosevelt unconditionally declared alliance

2674
02:37:54,479 --> 02:37:56,760
with Moscow. I mean that that was it, you know,

2675
02:37:56,840 --> 02:38:00,840
like he he lost, he lost Catholic America. You know,

2676
02:38:01,040 --> 02:38:03,280
like how how could you stand with how could you

2677
02:38:03,319 --> 02:38:05,840
stand with communism? You know, we don't care who's in

2678
02:38:05,879 --> 02:38:09,680
the We don't care who's sitting in the in Berlin.

2679
02:38:09,840 --> 02:38:12,159
As you know, we don't care what what Hitler is.

2680
02:38:12,159 --> 02:38:14,200
We don't care if he's a monster. Even you, you

2681
02:38:14,239 --> 02:38:16,719
can't stand with communism against Europe. You know, that's insane,

2682
02:38:16,760 --> 02:38:21,520
that's madness. But I what I'm getting at is that

2683
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:27,360
Roosevelt realized by by late forty one, he realized he

2684
02:38:27,440 --> 02:38:29,959
just was not going to get some He was not

2685
02:38:29,959 --> 02:38:31,680
gonna be able to stir up war fever against the

2686
02:38:31,680 --> 02:38:34,280
German right. He just was not gonna happen absent some

2687
02:38:34,360 --> 02:38:37,239
kind of mass assault by German absent some kind of

2688
02:38:37,319 --> 02:38:39,959
third right's version of Pearl Harbor against America. And that

2689
02:38:40,000 --> 02:38:46,559
would never happen because even as late as uh as

2690
02:38:46,639 --> 02:38:49,719
late as days were Pearl Harbor, there's you know, the

2691
02:38:50,799 --> 02:38:52,920
like we talked in the last session about one of

2692
02:38:53,000 --> 02:38:57,920
the major reasons for the cleft between the Furor and

2693
02:38:57,920 --> 02:39:01,920
and granted Grand Admiral Ray was that Hitler, in no

2694
02:39:02,040 --> 02:39:04,520
uncertain terms, said like, we are not going to provoke

2695
02:39:04,559 --> 02:39:07,040
the United States and Evy and you know we your

2696
02:39:07,040 --> 02:39:10,559
men will defend themselves and they're fired upon. But you know,

2697
02:39:10,600 --> 02:39:12,639
we are we we are not going to provoke uh

2698
02:39:13,680 --> 02:39:17,879
a confrontation in North Atlantic. And what Donnads said later

2699
02:39:17,920 --> 02:39:23,559
and granted, I mean Donna's was us didn't and hear

2700
02:39:23,600 --> 02:39:26,719
A commanded the Crasy Marine until until years subsequent, but

2701
02:39:26,760 --> 02:39:28,479
I mean he he was in a position to know.

2702
02:39:29,680 --> 02:39:33,360
He maintained in his own memoirs as well as at

2703
02:39:34,280 --> 02:39:40,479
Nuremberg that, uh, most of the incidents in which most

2704
02:39:40,520 --> 02:39:43,479
of the incidents prior to December forty one, when German

2705
02:39:43,600 --> 02:39:47,399
U boats did fire upon American vessels, these American vessels

2706
02:39:47,559 --> 02:39:53,120
were we're moving in tight formation uh with the with

2707
02:39:53,239 --> 02:39:57,719
Royal Navy warships and were indistinguishable. They are in you know,

2708
02:39:58,000 --> 02:40:00,319
I mean, and and I've got a reasonab believe that

2709
02:40:00,319 --> 02:40:02,840
that's exactly they would have deployed, I mean, especially in

2710
02:40:02,840 --> 02:40:04,399
the wake of the Atlantic Charter. But I mean they've

2711
02:40:04,440 --> 02:40:06,239
been doing that for years by that point, I mean

2712
02:40:06,239 --> 02:40:12,000
at least two years. So that was that was I

2713
02:40:12,000 --> 02:40:14,239
mean that, that's that's my take on Pearl Harbor and

2714
02:40:14,479 --> 02:40:17,639
uh it uh you know the way you understand too,

2715
02:40:17,719 --> 02:40:21,479
Like we were talking before we went to Air, I mean,

2716
02:40:21,520 --> 02:40:24,319
one of the one of the real moral indictments of

2717
02:40:24,319 --> 02:40:30,280
of the New Deal regime. If if your policy, particularly

2718
02:40:30,319 --> 02:40:31,680
in America, I mean, I think this is just I

2719
02:40:31,719 --> 02:40:35,079
think this goes just generally okay, but especially in America

2720
02:40:35,120 --> 02:40:41,040
where there's purposeful structural hedges against overreach, particularly executive overreach.

2721
02:40:41,120 --> 02:40:43,239
Almost the point I think of of a sort of

2722
02:40:43,280 --> 02:40:48,040
self defeating anxiety about it. You know, if you have

2723
02:40:48,079 --> 02:40:52,200
a president who is pursuing a course uh that that

2724
02:40:53,600 --> 02:40:58,559
a purposeful course to sue for war, said he can

2725
02:41:00,040 --> 02:41:05,040
said said he can uh derive political gain, personal power,

2726
02:41:06,440 --> 02:41:10,360
and or impose an ideological vision in the wake or

2727
02:41:11,120 --> 02:41:14,479
or presumed aftermath and victory within that war. I mean,

2728
02:41:14,520 --> 02:41:18,120
that's that's a kind of gross uh breach of public

2729
02:41:18,159 --> 02:41:23,000
trust and and potentially catastrophic just I mean not just

2730
02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:25,920
an apoca historical terms, but for the for the forcens

2731
02:41:25,920 --> 02:41:28,760
of the country and it's people that that that that

2732
02:41:28,840 --> 02:41:32,760
potentially can endure the consequences which can endure for centuries.

2733
02:41:32,799 --> 02:41:36,719
And Roosevelt Secretary of State, was a man named Cordell

2734
02:41:36,840 --> 02:41:41,559
Hull uh kind of a cipher the guy taught of

2735
02:41:41,600 --> 02:41:44,000
a list in uh. Roosevelt was known to make fun

2736
02:41:44,040 --> 02:41:47,600
of him and the presidence of witnesses. Roosevelt considered them

2737
02:41:47,639 --> 02:41:53,079
an insufferable moron. Uh Sumner Wells, the under Secretary of

2738
02:41:53,280 --> 02:41:57,680
State was a was was kind of the real It

2739
02:41:57,760 --> 02:42:00,719
was that the was the shadow Secretary of State, the

2740
02:42:00,760 --> 02:42:07,159
real diplomat. And there's a kind of the universal consensus

2741
02:42:07,200 --> 02:42:10,159
even among the the uniform consensus even among court historians,

2742
02:42:10,239 --> 02:42:16,159
is that uh deploying a hull to Uh to negotiate

2743
02:42:16,239 --> 02:42:19,520
with the the Japanese ambassador in the mora, who is

2744
02:42:19,719 --> 02:42:26,680
this very kind of upright retired naval admiral Uh. Hall's

2745
02:42:26,760 --> 02:42:28,879
role was kind of just too obstruct and to sort

2746
02:42:28,879 --> 02:42:31,799
of in the sort of scream moral can't quite literally

2747
02:42:31,840 --> 02:42:34,360
yet the moor and instruct him that the Japanese, you know,

2748
02:42:34,399 --> 02:42:36,399
we're not you know, we're we're not. We're not. We're

2749
02:42:36,440 --> 02:42:40,079
not we're not we're not proceeding acceptably in power politics.

2750
02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:43,680
Like Meanwhile, this was as America was quite literally destroying

2751
02:42:43,680 --> 02:42:47,680
the Japanese economy, you know, purposefully. You know, it's the Japanese.

2752
02:42:48,559 --> 02:42:55,120
The whole memo Memorandum was Ah there much has been

2753
02:42:55,159 --> 02:42:58,120
made about that by some historians, and it was basically

2754
02:42:58,200 --> 02:43:05,520
the final Nomura's final effort to achieve peace with the

2755
02:43:05,600 --> 02:43:09,399
United States. Japan was in a strange position politically. You

2756
02:43:09,399 --> 02:43:13,319
had these kind of frightened civilian politicians who were who

2757
02:43:13,319 --> 02:43:16,440
were incessantly worried for good reason, they'd be assassinated if

2758
02:43:16,440 --> 02:43:18,840
they ran a follow of the military. You had an

2759
02:43:19,000 --> 02:43:20,959
army that was very, very radical. Eed, you had a

2760
02:43:21,040 --> 02:43:26,680
navy that was a lot more reasoned and probably America's

2761
02:43:26,680 --> 02:43:32,760
best bet for for reaching some kind of negotiated settlement

2762
02:43:33,920 --> 02:43:37,959
in terms of sphere of influenced parameters in the Far East.

2763
02:43:38,600 --> 02:43:42,239
The Moor offered u. He said, look, he's like, why

2764
02:43:42,239 --> 02:43:44,879
don't we have a ninety day hiatus of any deployment

2765
02:43:44,920 --> 02:43:48,719
by the United States or Japanese forces in theater. You know,

2766
02:43:48,920 --> 02:43:52,520
we will agree to withdraw from southern Indo China, which

2767
02:43:52,879 --> 02:44:03,200
would would be southern Vietnam and parts of Cambodia and Laos.

2768
02:44:04,799 --> 02:44:08,159
But by that point most of the Japanese codes have

2769
02:44:08,239 --> 02:44:14,680
been broken. So Washington messaged to Hall and said that, well,

2770
02:44:15,360 --> 02:44:19,799
you know, we've got intercepts that we've you know, the

2771
02:44:19,879 --> 02:44:24,360
codes have been broken and indicating the Japanese uh they

2772
02:44:24,399 --> 02:44:30,040
have plans to reinforce h into China eminently. So obviously

2773
02:44:30,120 --> 02:44:33,000
negotiating in bad faith, that doesn't make any sense. Like

2774
02:44:33,120 --> 02:44:36,319
obviously you're gonna you're gonna hedge your diplomatic efforts with

2775
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:39,479
you know, the ability to deploy in depth to defend

2776
02:44:39,520 --> 02:44:41,479
if need be. I mean that this is obvious. But

2777
02:44:41,520 --> 02:44:46,559
that so Hall responded essentially by you know, just reiterating

2778
02:44:46,600 --> 02:44:49,600
terms to Japan, and there were terms that obviously we're

2779
02:44:49,639 --> 02:44:52,440
not gonna be abided. You know, they were if if

2780
02:44:52,559 --> 02:44:55,040
if Japan wanted the embargo lifted, if Japan wanted to

2781
02:44:55,040 --> 02:44:57,239
be able to access its assets which have been frozen

2782
02:44:58,239 --> 02:45:00,879
and it could not be recovered from for all practical

2783
02:45:00,959 --> 02:45:03,879
purposes in the United States, you know, they they'd have

2784
02:45:03,920 --> 02:45:07,200
to they have to withdraw completely from into China. They'd

2785
02:45:07,239 --> 02:45:10,280
have to, you know, they basically have to like they'd

2786
02:45:10,319 --> 02:45:13,360
have to end the war with uh with the Chinese

2787
02:45:13,440 --> 02:45:16,920
mainland essentially like seed, like all the territory they conquered,

2788
02:45:16,920 --> 02:45:18,479
the chank I check as you know, kind of like

2789
02:45:18,520 --> 02:45:22,959
the American proxy, like client proxy. It's just like ridiculous

2790
02:45:23,040 --> 02:45:26,159
terms I mean, in in about it, Bransonale of what

2791
02:45:26,280 --> 02:45:30,360
was underway, I mean, and it's that's that's that's my point.

2792
02:45:30,399 --> 02:45:33,040
You know, if you're not, and there's there's a parallel

2793
02:45:33,079 --> 02:45:36,959
today wherein you know, the the State Department doesn't actually

2794
02:45:36,959 --> 02:45:40,040
practice diplomacy. It just it just shrieks at people, you know,

2795
02:45:40,079 --> 02:45:46,920
and and pursues uh provocative and like provocative lines of

2796
02:45:47,079 --> 02:45:51,399
uh of of for these just issues, the progative declarations

2797
02:45:51,399 --> 02:45:52,959
that are and they're the only purpose which is to

2798
02:45:52,959 --> 02:45:58,559
be provocative then to preclude resolution short of hostilities. I mean,

2799
02:45:58,600 --> 02:46:01,120
thankfully America likes to put go will enforce them being

2800
02:46:01,200 --> 02:46:04,360
to wage a war against Russia. But I mean, you know,

2801
02:46:05,000 --> 02:46:08,440
unfortunately for the Japanese and ultimately for the for the

2802
02:46:08,520 --> 02:46:11,239
United States that that wasn't the case in ninety forty one.

2803
02:46:11,319 --> 02:46:15,600
But that was that was that was my point.

2804
02:46:19,520 --> 02:46:26,399
Speaker 1: What was what was FDR's deal with Germany? It it

2805
02:46:26,520 --> 02:46:31,200
seems to me that Germany is a more likely ally

2806
02:46:31,920 --> 02:46:35,639
for the United States then Soviet than the Soviet Union.

2807
02:46:35,719 --> 02:46:36,719
Speaker 2: Is I think.

2808
02:46:38,200 --> 02:46:40,239
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense. I mean not even an ally,

2809
02:46:40,280 --> 02:46:45,159
but just a trade ally. Just it doesn't make any sense.

2810
02:46:45,280 --> 02:46:48,280
You know that you are going to alienate so many

2811
02:46:48,280 --> 02:46:49,920
people by sitting down with Stalin.

2812
02:46:51,879 --> 02:46:56,040
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, I mean this goes back it's

2813
02:46:56,079 --> 02:46:59,200
it's not approximate cause, but there was a parallel. You know,

2814
02:46:59,280 --> 02:47:03,479
going back Christopher Clark, and he's a historian I invoke

2815
02:47:03,559 --> 02:47:06,680
a lot because he's he's written some really interesting stuff

2816
02:47:06,680 --> 02:47:08,959
on World War One and and he wrote a whole

2817
02:47:09,079 --> 02:47:12,239
history of Prussia that's it's huge value, but it's really dope.

2818
02:47:13,799 --> 02:47:17,399
But I mean he made the point that the uh,

2819
02:47:18,159 --> 02:47:20,719
the kind of absolute enmity, like the real hatred that

2820
02:47:20,760 --> 02:47:23,319
developed between Kaiser Wilhelm and King George. I mean, both

2821
02:47:23,319 --> 02:47:25,479
of these men were insufferable people. It's part of it,

2822
02:47:25,520 --> 02:47:29,319
but it Yeah, there's really no there's really no reason

2823
02:47:29,440 --> 02:47:32,200
for America, the UK, and Germany to have been at

2824
02:47:32,200 --> 02:47:35,399
anything but to have been at odds at all, if anything, like, Yeah,

2825
02:47:35,440 --> 02:47:39,159
they should have been allies, even notwithstanding Communism in the

2826
02:47:39,200 --> 02:47:42,040
monster that was Joe Stalin. That's kind of the natural

2827
02:47:42,079 --> 02:47:46,239
alliance against you know, the Russia and the East. I mean, yeah,

2828
02:47:46,399 --> 02:47:51,000
it the best I mean a little wrong guy. I

2829
02:47:51,040 --> 02:47:52,399
mean he was not a little known at the time.

2830
02:47:53,280 --> 02:47:57,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, but haven't haven't some historians gone as

2831
02:47:57,079 --> 02:47:59,639
far as to say that basically that Hitler was an

2832
02:47:59,639 --> 02:48:02,760
angler file that he just wanted to be He wanted

2833
02:48:02,760 --> 02:48:04,040
a partnership with England.

2834
02:48:04,559 --> 02:48:07,520
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, unconditionally. A half dozen times he offered the

2835
02:48:07,559 --> 02:48:10,479
UK unconditional peace. I mean that that's its own thing.

2836
02:48:10,680 --> 02:48:12,440
Like next session, I want to cover that. We'll get

2837
02:48:12,440 --> 02:48:15,680
into the UK's we'll get into the Churchill War against

2838
02:48:15,680 --> 02:48:18,799
the Reich. But it there was a there's a guy

2839
02:48:18,879 --> 02:48:22,520
named Harry Hopkins. He's kind of forgotten history now, but

2840
02:48:22,559 --> 02:48:26,680
he certainly was not unknown in his epoch. Uh. He

2841
02:48:26,760 --> 02:48:29,200
was sort of the Colonel House of the Roosevelt administration.

2842
02:48:31,920 --> 02:48:35,479
And he it might have been Nigh or it might

2843
02:48:35,479 --> 02:48:37,239
have been Burton Wheeler. It was. It was one of

2844
02:48:37,239 --> 02:48:41,200
the kind of arch nemeses of Roseenvelt himself who came

2845
02:48:41,239 --> 02:48:44,639
to call Hopkins the American rescutant. Respect have been a

2846
02:48:44,639 --> 02:48:51,159
secondary of Commerce on lay Need forty and he uh,

2847
02:48:51,719 --> 02:48:56,959
he was forced to resign because the uh, because he

2848
02:48:56,959 --> 02:48:59,799
made some frankly extremist statements both you know what what

2849
02:49:00,000 --> 02:49:02,399
what could only be construte is in supportive communism, like

2850
02:49:02,440 --> 02:49:07,719
overtly in supportive communism. And he published in April forty one.

2851
02:49:08,520 --> 02:49:10,760
He was no longer a Secretary of Commerce, but he'd

2852
02:49:10,760 --> 02:49:14,639
been literally moved into the White House. And the cover.

2853
02:49:15,159 --> 02:49:18,000
The claim for this was, well, he's in poor health,

2854
02:49:18,079 --> 02:49:20,719
and he was that mister Roosevelt takes care of his people.

2855
02:49:21,079 --> 02:49:22,479
It's like, okay, so why is he living in the

2856
02:49:22,479 --> 02:49:26,639
White House? You know? And he wasn't exactly a man

2857
02:49:26,680 --> 02:49:29,840
without means, so I mean, I mean, the obligations obvious,

2858
02:49:29,879 --> 02:49:32,239
you know, he was. He was quite obviously, you know,

2859
02:49:32,319 --> 02:49:37,319
kind of Roosevelt's closest, you know, advisor. The fact that

2860
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:43,680
wasn't worried. But he uh, he declared in the April

2861
02:49:43,719 --> 02:49:50,399
forty one uh two things he said. Well, first of all,

2862
02:49:50,440 --> 02:49:54,440
he said, uh, in response to people who criticized the

2863
02:49:56,799 --> 02:50:02,840
you know, criticized the the the kind of anti business

2864
02:50:03,000 --> 02:50:05,000
climate that had emerged in America. I mean, there's a

2865
02:50:05,079 --> 02:50:07,840
real threat of capitalism kind of being relegated to the

2866
02:50:07,840 --> 02:50:11,479
ashmen in history, not by circumstances or anything of a

2867
02:50:11,520 --> 02:50:14,520
historical nature of a because of some kind of truly

2868
02:50:14,559 --> 02:50:17,200
socialist revolution in America. This is not impossible. This is

2869
02:50:17,239 --> 02:50:22,159
not a fantasy, Okay. Hopkins response to that was, well,

2870
02:50:22,760 --> 02:50:25,559
you know, America is in danger of a quote fascist

2871
02:50:25,600 --> 02:50:29,200
revolution by big business. I mean he literally said this,

2872
02:50:29,840 --> 02:50:32,239
and he said that we need a quote New Deal

2873
02:50:32,319 --> 02:50:36,200
for the world. He said that the world's under threat

2874
02:50:36,319 --> 02:50:41,559
by fascism. Adolf Hitler is the architect of it. If

2875
02:50:41,559 --> 02:50:43,280
we do not go to war to destroy it, off

2876
02:50:43,440 --> 02:50:45,760
Hitler and his German Reich and Mussolini and the in

2877
02:50:45,799 --> 02:50:48,200
parre of Japan, who in his mind too, were all

2878
02:50:48,239 --> 02:50:51,680
conspiring together and responsible for everything bad that happened anywhere.

2879
02:50:52,360 --> 02:50:55,600
You know, it's this was some of like trotsky As nonsense,

2880
02:50:55,639 --> 02:50:58,280
you know, like fascists and big business or conspiring to

2881
02:50:58,399 --> 02:51:01,079
enslave us all. And if we don't, you know, we

2882
02:51:01,879 --> 02:51:04,120
you know, if if we if we don't export the

2883
02:51:04,159 --> 02:51:07,040
New Deal abroad and annihilate our enemies, you know, will

2884
02:51:08,399 --> 02:51:10,280
you know what, will just be a garrison state. You know,

2885
02:51:10,719 --> 02:51:12,159
we'll be a city on the hill, but will be

2886
02:51:12,200 --> 02:51:13,719
a besieged city on the hill. I mean, this is

2887
02:51:13,760 --> 02:51:17,719
truly insane stuff. And it's and frankly, if you're white

2888
02:51:17,719 --> 02:51:20,319
and Christian and not some kind of deranged communist, I mean,

2889
02:51:20,319 --> 02:51:23,840
that was like, on its face treason. And Harry Hopkins

2890
02:51:23,840 --> 02:51:28,440
died shortly after. But if you're asking what I believe,

2891
02:51:28,440 --> 02:51:32,040
this is how Roosevelt thought. Roosevelt was not a stupid man,

2892
02:51:32,079 --> 02:51:33,879
and I think Roosevelt himself this thought was a little

2893
02:51:33,879 --> 02:51:40,760
more nuanced. But uh, Roosevelt wasn't a wasp literally he

2894
02:51:40,879 --> 02:51:43,840
was Dutch, but he I mean he was a wasp culturally. Okay.

2895
02:51:44,120 --> 02:51:49,280
He was an upper crust New Northeast Protestant and uh,

2896
02:51:49,799 --> 02:51:52,600
people who disdained him would call him behind closed doors

2897
02:51:52,639 --> 02:51:55,840
obviously a trader to his class. All right, Uh, there's

2898
02:51:55,840 --> 02:51:59,280
something to that. Uh. My take on it is that

2899
02:51:59,360 --> 02:52:02,040
Roosevelt believe these things. I think he was a crazy

2900
02:52:02,040 --> 02:52:06,319
anti fascist. Okay, I mean he it's it wasn't just uh,

2901
02:52:06,440 --> 02:52:09,879
it wasn't just what people like uh Burton Wheeler said.

2902
02:52:10,120 --> 02:52:11,680
I mean, Wheeler was a good man on me wrong,

2903
02:52:11,760 --> 02:52:13,959
but wasn't just a guy who was in personal power.

2904
02:52:14,000 --> 02:52:17,280
I mean he was, he was interested in that, and

2905
02:52:17,360 --> 02:52:20,639
I think, uh, I think he became intoxicated by hubris,

2906
02:52:21,639 --> 02:52:26,200
as many men do. But I think he literally believed

2907
02:52:26,840 --> 02:52:31,760
what Hopkins elucidated in, uh, in this kind of anti

2908
02:52:31,799 --> 02:52:36,120
fascist screed that he that he that he both wrote

2909
02:52:36,159 --> 02:52:39,520
and that he he explicated in public life until he

2910
02:52:39,600 --> 02:52:42,760
was kind of sideline on grounds of you know, the

2911
02:52:42,760 --> 02:52:45,600
liability that he become for kind of saying these things

2912
02:52:45,639 --> 02:52:48,440
above board that we're not supposed to be said, that's

2913
02:52:48,440 --> 02:52:51,639
my view of it. It's a crazy thing. I mean, crises,

2914
02:52:52,600 --> 02:52:55,920
crises can didn't mister kid Inders say never let a

2915
02:52:55,920 --> 02:52:58,159
crisis go to waste? And I think he was paraphrased.

2916
02:52:58,360 --> 02:53:01,959
I think he was paraphrasing Metternich. And people put a

2917
02:53:01,959 --> 02:53:04,200
lot of shade on Kissinger. And I'm more friendly to

2918
02:53:04,280 --> 02:53:08,680
Kissinger than people might think. And I'm not saying that that,

2919
02:53:09,000 --> 02:53:12,799
but I mean, just speaking in terms of in objective terms,

2920
02:53:12,799 --> 02:53:19,440
I mean that true structural crises, and particularly it at

2921
02:53:19,520 --> 02:53:26,559
uh a key historical apocal junctures, there's great potential for

2922
02:53:26,559 --> 02:53:32,520
for for for you know, remarkable things as well as

2923
02:53:32,520 --> 02:53:35,440
like really terrible things. And I think I think that's

2924
02:53:36,200 --> 02:53:38,479
that that's how you that was kind of the Roosevelt moment.

2925
02:53:40,360 --> 02:53:44,239
But uh, you know, the uh, the war among the

2926
02:53:44,280 --> 02:53:46,200
things allowed the New Deal to really become the New

2927
02:53:46,239 --> 02:53:49,280
Deal because that allowed to be a permanent regime, you know,

2928
02:53:49,440 --> 02:53:53,680
is as total wars do I mean that that's my view,

2929
02:53:53,719 --> 02:53:54,079
you know, I.

2930
02:53:56,079 --> 02:54:01,440
Speaker 1: Did anyone like at that point talking about Roosevelt like

2931
02:54:01,600 --> 02:54:06,319
said basically, if you if you take the side of

2932
02:54:06,360 --> 02:54:12,200
the Soviet Union, you that Spanish Civil War, you were

2933
02:54:12,200 --> 02:54:14,920
on the side of the communists and the same. I mean,

2934
02:54:15,479 --> 02:54:19,239
it's basically just I mean, it's hard to ignore that

2935
02:54:20,440 --> 02:54:25,040
you've basically taken the side of people who throughout the

2936
02:54:25,079 --> 02:54:30,280
thirties were causing insane the twenties and thirties twenties in

2937
02:54:30,360 --> 02:54:34,440
Italy and then insane bloodshed all over freaking Europe.

2938
02:54:35,000 --> 02:54:37,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I and that's what that's what the Canalyst

2939
02:54:37,760 --> 02:54:40,319
was for America first, then for Father Coughlin, and I

2940
02:54:40,319 --> 02:54:44,280
mean there was huge opposition to this. What's fastanding is

2941
02:54:44,280 --> 02:54:49,319
that Nai himself. Uh, there's a huge America first rally.

2942
02:54:49,440 --> 02:54:57,479
On the night of December seventh, okay, Ni's uh, somebody

2943
02:54:57,520 --> 02:55:01,639
came into the auditorium and said, you know, the damn

2944
02:55:01,719 --> 02:55:03,959
Jaffs just attack Pearl Harbor. Like what do you think now,

2945
02:55:04,159 --> 02:55:06,520
you know, satat Or and I and people thought the

2946
02:55:06,520 --> 02:55:09,079
guy was a heckler who was removed. And then some

2947
02:55:09,200 --> 02:55:12,159
news it was either a newsman or an aid or

2948
02:55:12,879 --> 02:55:16,440
came over, you know, ran up and handed a telegram

2949
02:55:16,479 --> 02:55:21,440
Deny and he reads it and he said, you know, stupified,

2950
02:55:21,479 --> 02:55:23,159
this is the this is the worst news I've heard

2951
02:55:23,200 --> 02:55:26,559
in twenty years. And then he said, the Empire Japan

2952
02:55:26,639 --> 02:55:28,639
is assaulted Pearl Harbor, you know, and then like all

2953
02:55:28,680 --> 02:55:31,639
these gasps go through the room, and that was like

2954
02:55:31,680 --> 02:55:35,799
a game changer. And like Lindbergh said, like not in public,

2955
02:55:36,000 --> 02:55:38,760
but he he said to one of his confidants, you know,

2956
02:55:38,879 --> 02:55:42,559
he said, well, Roosevelt got us in the back door.

2957
02:55:43,840 --> 02:55:49,920
I mean at that point, there's still ah at that point,

2958
02:55:49,959 --> 02:55:51,920
I mean, the die was cast. You know, it's like

2959
02:55:51,959 --> 02:55:54,000
you can't you can't, you can't reason with people who

2960
02:55:54,000 --> 02:55:57,319
are who are swept up in that kind of war fever.

2961
02:55:57,520 --> 02:56:00,319
And and you know, in particularly like I said, like

2962
02:56:00,360 --> 02:56:04,440
the you know, the especially considering the racial overtones of

2963
02:56:04,559 --> 02:56:07,040
the Japanese American War, Like I'm not that that's not

2964
02:56:07,159 --> 02:56:10,319
some woke take like oh racist America. I mean there's

2965
02:56:10,840 --> 02:56:14,079
there wasn't. There was, in fact a two way hostility

2966
02:56:14,200 --> 02:56:18,520
between East and West, Ocaden and Orient, you know, the

2967
02:56:18,520 --> 02:56:21,239
white man and the yellow man. He kind of look

2968
02:56:21,280 --> 02:56:23,360
at it in those terms. That was very real, Okay,

2969
02:56:23,520 --> 02:56:26,399
I don't think that can be denied. And obviously that

2970
02:56:26,440 --> 02:56:29,600
was very much cultivated too by people who hated the

2971
02:56:29,639 --> 02:56:33,719
Empire of Japan for cynical reasons. But that That's what

2972
02:56:33,879 --> 02:56:40,760
changed everything. And that's also why Hitler in the ok W,

2973
02:56:41,479 --> 02:56:46,040
they really according to a ribbon trop and according to Garring,

2974
02:56:46,639 --> 02:56:49,959
both of them I considered to be credible, particularly Garing.

2975
02:56:49,959 --> 02:56:51,360
You can say a lot of things about Garry. The

2976
02:56:51,360 --> 02:56:55,319
guy wasn't a liar. And and plus he knew he

2977
02:56:55,360 --> 02:56:56,959
was gonna be hanged. Remember what he said, It's like,

2978
02:56:56,959 --> 02:56:59,440
why would he lie about this anyway? He said, like

2979
02:56:59,520 --> 02:57:02,360
Hitler was shaken when he got the news that Pearl

2980
02:57:02,360 --> 02:57:05,079
Harvard had been assaulted, you know, he said, he said

2981
02:57:05,079 --> 02:57:09,319
that it's very rare you saw Hitler genuinely shaken. He's like,

2982
02:57:09,360 --> 02:57:12,159
you saw Hitler angry at fair amount. You know, you

2983
02:57:12,159 --> 02:57:15,319
saw him like upset and somewhat agitated, but like shaken

2984
02:57:15,399 --> 02:57:17,719
up like that. That was not something you generally saw,

2985
02:57:17,840 --> 02:57:21,280
like even when conditions were pretty catastrophic, you know. And

2986
02:57:21,360 --> 02:57:26,840
he he was genuinely like, you know, this is this

2987
02:57:26,920 --> 02:57:29,360
is very very bad, you know, is what is what

2988
02:57:29,399 --> 02:57:33,719
Geary was getting at. And it was but that that's

2989
02:57:33,760 --> 02:57:37,479
that's what changed everything, you know, And that's why I

2990
02:57:37,520 --> 02:57:41,399
mean obviously too, I mean, it was absurd that everybody

2991
02:57:41,399 --> 02:57:44,399
from everyone from very different I'll be it for very

2992
02:57:44,399 --> 02:57:49,239
different reasons. But everybody from uh Roosevelt to MacArthur was

2993
02:57:49,239 --> 02:57:50,920
was saying like, oh this, you know this, this was

2994
02:57:50,959 --> 02:57:52,680
the crowds who like plotted this, you know, the Pearl

2995
02:57:52,719 --> 02:57:56,120
Harbor assault. I mean, that's that's obviously ridiculous, but for

2996
02:57:56,159 --> 02:57:58,319
a no other reason. I mean, the last thing, the

2997
02:57:58,399 --> 02:58:00,399
last thing berlind And made off Hitler wanted it was

2998
02:58:00,440 --> 02:58:03,000
for you know, America to have some kind of catalyst

2999
02:58:03,120 --> 02:58:08,079
like Pearl Harbor to freaking you know, uh, issue a

3000
02:58:08,120 --> 02:58:13,479
general mobilization order and finally get the at least, if

3001
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:18,360
not a sweeping war mandate, at least an adequate consensus

3002
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:21,360
in order to pursue a war against against the Reich.

3003
02:58:21,559 --> 02:58:23,399
I mean, they sure was held didn't want that, Like,

3004
02:58:23,399 --> 02:58:26,280
how what the hell could they possibly gain from that?

3005
02:58:26,280 --> 02:58:28,360
That that put him in their nightmare quagmira of a

3006
02:58:28,360 --> 02:58:33,360
true two front war. I mean, Thomas Fleming makes the point,

3007
02:58:33,360 --> 02:58:37,280
and I profoundly disagree with this, but he he says, uh,

3008
02:58:39,639 --> 02:58:43,120
you know, if if the behamaxt was drawn to quote

3009
02:58:43,120 --> 02:58:46,520
a winter line, I mean this presumes some kind of

3010
02:58:46,600 --> 02:58:49,159
armistice with Stalin two that could have freed up one

3011
02:58:49,200 --> 02:58:53,920
hundred divisions at that point as the December nineteen forty

3012
02:58:53,959 --> 02:58:56,799
one best case America in the UK can I've only

3013
02:58:56,879 --> 02:59:01,559
mustered twenty divisions to assault North Africa? You know. The

3014
02:59:01,559 --> 02:59:04,079
Fleming's take is that like, well, you know, the the

3015
02:59:04,120 --> 02:59:07,760
kriegs Marine could have you know, could have swept the

3016
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:09,600
Royal Navy out of the out of the out of

3017
02:59:09,639 --> 02:59:14,799
the Mediterranean. The Germans could have fortified, uh, the Atlantic Wall,

3018
02:59:15,280 --> 02:59:19,280
absorbed Sweden as well as uh, you know, the Iberian Peninsula,

3019
02:59:19,959 --> 02:59:22,040
and then you know, like assaulted North Africa full of boar.

3020
02:59:22,479 --> 02:59:24,680
But I mean that that that that basically presumes that

3021
02:59:24,799 --> 02:59:27,680
you know, the Soviet Union no longer exists. Okay, it's like, okay,

3022
02:59:27,680 --> 02:59:30,879
what are the Soviets doing during this time? They're reconstituting

3023
02:59:30,920 --> 02:59:36,319
and then in Germany is dead. Hitler was not an

3024
02:59:36,360 --> 02:59:40,719
amateur strategist. He was absolutely right. The way, the way,

3025
02:59:40,799 --> 02:59:43,280
the only way Germany wins the Second World Wars is

3026
02:59:43,479 --> 02:59:45,799
the annihilation of the Soviet Union. That was the only

3027
02:59:45,840 --> 02:59:49,079
way out. I mean that's kind of a tangent, but

3028
02:59:49,719 --> 02:59:55,479
that's what what what defeat in America first? Uh was uh,

3029
02:59:56,280 --> 03:00:00,559
what what allowed Rose? What was Roosevelt out was a

3030
03:00:01,559 --> 03:00:04,760
was a was a Pearl Harbor attack and nothing else like,

3031
03:00:04,799 --> 03:00:05,520
make no mistake?

3032
03:00:08,159 --> 03:00:11,120
Speaker 1: Do you want to stay on the New Dealers a

3033
03:00:11,159 --> 03:00:13,280
little bit more? Do you want to jump into I

3034
03:00:13,280 --> 03:00:17,639
mean you already mentioned once Barbarossa. Where do you want

3035
03:00:17,639 --> 03:00:17,840
to go?

3036
03:00:19,000 --> 03:00:20,520
Speaker 2: I'd like to stay with the New Dealers for the

3037
03:00:20,639 --> 03:00:23,520
duration last episode and then yeah, we'll jump into whatever

3038
03:00:23,559 --> 03:00:27,600
you want next UK, next session, whether it's the UK's

3039
03:00:27,639 --> 03:00:30,799
war against the Rajiker, whether it's operating Barbaros.

3040
03:00:30,799 --> 03:00:34,159
Speaker 1: Do you tell me, okay, all right, well, if we're

3041
03:00:34,200 --> 03:00:36,799
gonna if we're gonna stay on this. I mean, it

3042
03:00:36,879 --> 03:00:41,440
seems to me that I've read not all of them,

3043
03:00:41,479 --> 03:00:45,600
but I've read a good amount of about how the

3044
03:00:45,680 --> 03:00:49,879
Supreme Court was just basically redone in the thirties. I've

3045
03:00:49,920 --> 03:00:53,319
read some cases. I mean, Ashwanda versus Tennessee Valley Authority

3046
03:00:53,360 --> 03:00:55,920
is a very famous case, and you just start seeing

3047
03:00:55,959 --> 03:01:01,120
this whole different The courts are interpret things differently, And

3048
03:01:01,159 --> 03:01:05,840
it almost seems like you talked about how he he

3049
03:01:05,879 --> 03:01:09,079
would do anything to get into to start a war,

3050
03:01:09,719 --> 03:01:12,159
and it almost seems like he set up the court

3051
03:01:12,319 --> 03:01:15,120
system that if it came to a court decision, he

3052
03:01:15,159 --> 03:01:16,520
had the court on his side.

3053
03:01:17,479 --> 03:01:22,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I think Felix Frankfurter. Frankfurter was somewhat

3054
03:01:22,879 --> 03:01:26,120
nuanced in his thought. He you can't just dismiss it

3055
03:01:26,159 --> 03:01:28,719
as like as left wing Jewish judge or as this Zionist,

3056
03:01:29,719 --> 03:01:31,920
but he definitely was essential in a new deal regime

3057
03:01:32,719 --> 03:01:34,879
that goes out saying and yeah, I mean Roosevelt quite

3058
03:01:34,920 --> 03:01:37,760
literally tried to pack the court. I mean, speaking of overreach,

3059
03:01:37,799 --> 03:01:45,639
I mean he he literally tried to uh he he

3060
03:01:45,719 --> 03:01:51,239
literally tried to uh alter the alter the paradigm of

3061
03:01:51,600 --> 03:01:58,639
a of the separation of powers by by uh you know,

3062
03:01:58,680 --> 03:02:01,520
with with with the court packing bill, which was defeated.

3063
03:02:01,600 --> 03:02:06,959
But yeah, the gunn of Huberts indicated there is is unbelievable.

3064
03:02:07,360 --> 03:02:11,559
But it's also even if they had somewhat complicated because

3065
03:02:11,600 --> 03:02:14,000
the I made the point again and again to people

3066
03:02:14,040 --> 03:02:16,799
that and John yu, who I think is a brilliant guy.

3067
03:02:16,879 --> 03:02:18,280
I don't want to go too far a field, but

3068
03:02:18,399 --> 03:02:21,520
people want to understand the judiciary and and how it

3069
03:02:21,520 --> 03:02:24,360
became kind of the truly seed, the true seed of

3070
03:02:24,399 --> 03:02:27,440
sovereignty post Watergate, in my opinion, even though the seeds

3071
03:02:27,479 --> 03:02:31,520
were laid before they had, if not sown. John you

3072
03:02:31,680 --> 03:02:34,000
was a good guy to read to learn about this topic.

3073
03:02:34,280 --> 03:02:39,079
But Roosevelt, I believe if he had a hostile judiciary

3074
03:02:39,399 --> 03:02:43,479
that would have made that would have made that would

3075
03:02:43,479 --> 03:02:49,799
have that would have presented him some obstacles. But you know,

3076
03:02:49,840 --> 03:02:53,280
in the twentieth century, presidents didn't just abide this idea

3077
03:02:53,360 --> 03:02:58,479
that you know, they you know, I may I make

3078
03:02:58,520 --> 03:03:00,959
the point again and again that you know, the the

3079
03:03:01,040 --> 03:03:09,000
judiciary was almost an appendage of executive power, whether it

3080
03:03:09,120 --> 03:03:13,159
was you know, an executive like Eisenhower deciding that he

3081
03:03:13,239 --> 03:03:17,120
had to force integration in order to uh fight the

3082
03:03:17,159 --> 03:03:20,479
Cold War on on the socio political front, and then

3083
03:03:20,760 --> 03:03:23,799
literally backing up that decision at the point at with

3084
03:03:24,079 --> 03:03:29,879
you know, at gunpoint, like he did in Arkansas. Opposite Farbus,

3085
03:03:30,360 --> 03:03:34,680
I think if I think if Roosevelt had been dealing

3086
03:03:34,719 --> 03:03:38,719
with a hostile Supreme Court that had been you know,

3087
03:03:38,719 --> 03:03:43,360
had been doing what it could to strike down strike

3088
03:03:43,440 --> 03:03:49,399
down the kind of more flagrantly uh heavy handed, to

3089
03:03:49,399 --> 03:03:52,760
be charitable aspects of the New Deal, I think Roosevelt

3090
03:03:52,760 --> 03:03:57,200
would have just ignored it, or you know, he uh,

3091
03:03:58,760 --> 03:04:03,280
he would have just he would just focus on the

3092
03:04:03,280 --> 03:04:05,879
foreign policy fraud and even more earnest to trigger the war,

3093
03:04:06,920 --> 03:04:08,319
you know, and then it would have been a done deal.

3094
03:04:08,760 --> 03:04:11,239
You know. It's like, Okay, America's mobilized for a total war.

3095
03:04:11,319 --> 03:04:14,239
I'm you know, I'm I'm I shit man. I mean,

3096
03:04:14,280 --> 03:04:18,399
I President Lingcoln's suspended Havieus corpus during the war in

3097
03:04:18,399 --> 03:04:20,440
the States, the Supreme Court, what's that where this is

3098
03:04:20,440 --> 03:04:23,799
a national emergency? You know, you don't exist anymore, you know,

3099
03:04:24,040 --> 03:04:26,920
I'm the law in a national emergency under Article too.

3100
03:04:27,760 --> 03:04:32,120
It's a fascinating question. Frankfurter later ran a fl for

3101
03:04:32,200 --> 03:04:35,239
kind of for a very he's a strange man, like

3102
03:04:35,239 --> 03:04:38,079
in all kinds of ways, like he he like I

3103
03:04:38,079 --> 03:04:40,120
can't remember he got formally indicted, but he got this

3104
03:04:40,239 --> 03:04:43,040
barred if I remember, right, like like later in life,

3105
03:04:43,120 --> 03:04:46,479
for like simple corruption just like literally taking bribes. I

3106
03:04:46,520 --> 03:04:48,959
mean a guy that's stature, Like that's very weird, Like

3107
03:04:49,000 --> 03:04:51,959
think about that, like even the kind of even the

3108
03:04:52,040 --> 03:04:54,200
kind of losers in the Supreme Court today, Like it'd

3109
03:04:54,239 --> 03:04:55,719
be weird to hear about one of them just like

3110
03:04:55,799 --> 03:04:58,680
taking a bribe like some kind of like some jerkwater

3111
03:04:58,719 --> 03:05:03,760
governor or something like. I mean, it's it's weird. But yeah,

3112
03:05:03,799 --> 03:05:13,280
that that definitely uh Frankfurt. Uh Frankfurt is cooperation, I

3113
03:05:13,280 --> 03:05:15,920
mean not just has support, is I mean, is theological

3114
03:05:15,959 --> 03:05:20,200
agreement with Roosevelt the man, as well as the entire

3115
03:05:20,200 --> 03:05:22,680
New Deal enterprise. I mean, I think that was essential

3116
03:05:22,680 --> 03:05:27,200
to it. I mean it, Uh, Roosevelt was a master

3117
03:05:27,680 --> 03:05:31,079
Machiavellian and he'll be remembered. Is that I made the

3118
03:05:31,079 --> 03:05:33,000
point before that the real one of the reasons I

3119
03:05:33,559 --> 03:05:36,600
write so much longer form about Roosevelt and Hitler. It's

3120
03:05:36,639 --> 03:05:38,280
not just because, like I made the point before, I

3121
03:05:38,319 --> 03:05:42,680
think they were each other's true nemesis. But uh, I mean,

3122
03:05:42,760 --> 03:05:46,799
Roosevelt might have been a bad man, uh, but he

3123
03:05:46,920 --> 03:05:50,120
was a political genius. He wasn't a slob like Churchill.

3124
03:05:50,840 --> 03:05:53,159
You know, he wasn't just a gangster like Stalin. I mean,

3125
03:05:53,200 --> 03:05:56,600
I've got Stalin's a fascinating guy, but he he was

3126
03:05:56,680 --> 03:05:59,040
very much a gangster. I mean, Roosevelt had something of

3127
03:05:59,079 --> 03:06:02,200
a gangster in him. Roosevelt and Hitler are definitely the

3128
03:06:02,200 --> 03:06:05,559
most interesting executives in World War Two, I think. I mean,

3129
03:06:06,520 --> 03:06:08,799
I don't believe it's just like conceptual bias because I'm

3130
03:06:09,639 --> 03:06:13,520
you know, uh, an American type it. Uh, but yeah,

3131
03:06:13,959 --> 03:06:17,840
Roosevelt was h It's it's pretty amazing what he was

3132
03:06:17,840 --> 03:06:19,920
able to get done. I mean, and part of that

3133
03:06:19,920 --> 03:06:23,280
ohe the circumstances that fell in his lap, like par Harbor.

3134
03:06:23,840 --> 03:06:26,879
But some of it didn't, you know. I mean there's

3135
03:06:26,879 --> 03:06:28,520
a lot of guys who tried to accomp who have

3136
03:06:28,680 --> 03:06:32,120
who have aimed to accomplish similar things and it just

3137
03:06:32,159 --> 03:06:35,680
blew up on their face. You know, most people can't

3138
03:06:35,719 --> 03:06:39,600
do that. Roosevelt was not a particularly nice guy. I mean,

3139
03:06:39,600 --> 03:06:41,840
he was a charismatic guy all day, but he was

3140
03:06:41,920 --> 03:06:44,239
kind of a bully. He was kind of a nasty individual.

3141
03:06:44,319 --> 03:06:47,719
I mean, it's not but he commanded real loyalty from people,

3142
03:06:47,760 --> 03:06:51,920
you know, as and Hitler did too. I mean that's that.

3143
03:06:52,079 --> 03:06:55,280
Like I said, man, I I I think they're both.

3144
03:06:56,239 --> 03:06:59,159
I think I think they're the most interesting players on

3145
03:06:59,319 --> 03:07:01,719
the Grand Chess board of the time.

3146
03:07:05,360 --> 03:07:08,159
Speaker 1: It seems to me that if considering you had the

3147
03:07:08,239 --> 03:07:10,959
New Deal, and then people are looking at New Deal

3148
03:07:11,040 --> 03:07:15,639
programs and they're like, this is border you know, words

3149
03:07:15,680 --> 03:07:19,120
like socialism, in terms like socialism start getting thrown around.

3150
03:07:19,520 --> 03:07:22,680
It seems to me that when he decides that he's

3151
03:07:22,719 --> 03:07:26,559
going to back the Soviet Union and he's going to

3152
03:07:26,719 --> 03:07:30,319
meet you know, he's in it, the famous pictures with

3153
03:07:30,399 --> 03:07:34,760
him Stalin and Churchill. That a lot of people at

3154
03:07:34,760 --> 03:07:37,479
home really had to be worried about the direction that

3155
03:07:37,520 --> 03:07:40,959
the United States was going, because we are all these

3156
03:07:41,000 --> 03:07:44,120
programs that have never been in existence before, and they

3157
03:07:44,120 --> 03:07:47,280
were just basically pushed through by FIAT all through the thirties,

3158
03:07:47,520 --> 03:07:49,239
and then all of a sudden, he's climbing into bed

3159
03:07:49,280 --> 03:07:53,440
with like, you know, an arch communist, and well, it's a.

3160
03:07:53,360 --> 03:07:54,360
Speaker 2: Couple of things.

3161
03:07:54,760 --> 03:07:55,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, good.

3162
03:07:58,000 --> 03:08:03,120
Speaker 2: The degree to which there was a systemic failure and

3163
03:08:03,479 --> 03:08:05,920
Murray Rothbart, like we talked about a couple of sessions ago.

3164
03:08:06,879 --> 03:08:10,239
Rothbart's history the Great Depression is outstanding, and I think

3165
03:08:10,280 --> 03:08:14,559
it's key to understanding what happened. The degree to which

3166
03:08:15,360 --> 03:08:19,120
the degree to which people believed that capitalism had failed

3167
03:08:19,120 --> 03:08:22,920
in structural terms and could no longer and i could

3168
03:08:22,959 --> 03:08:27,680
no longer be adapted to modern conditions at scale. This

3169
03:08:27,840 --> 03:08:31,079
was a universal People just accepted this. You know. That's

3170
03:08:31,079 --> 03:08:34,440
why even the right wing was was socialistic in the

3171
03:08:34,479 --> 03:08:37,079
fact that they believe in the corporate state. You know, like, oh,

3172
03:08:37,120 --> 03:08:39,799
obviously you know you need you need something re essential

3173
03:08:39,840 --> 03:08:41,879
planning in the economy just because you know, there's too

3174
03:08:41,879 --> 03:08:45,319
many inputs to manage without catastrophes, and there's too many uncertainties,

3175
03:08:45,799 --> 03:08:48,879
you know, and and capital can't be efficiently allocated, you

3176
03:08:48,879 --> 03:08:51,680
know when when you're talking about you know, when you're

3177
03:08:51,719 --> 03:08:54,840
talking about the modern uh, when you're talking about modern

3178
03:08:54,920 --> 03:08:59,000
national economics, Like everybody thought this, Okay, so people were

3179
03:08:59,000 --> 03:09:02,719
more habituated that that kind of thinking was easier to

3180
03:09:02,760 --> 03:09:06,840
swallow than it would be today. But also, yeah, to

3181
03:09:06,879 --> 03:09:09,760
your point, people still hated communism for a good reason.

3182
03:09:10,680 --> 03:09:12,559
But that's one of the reasons why, I mean the

3183
03:09:12,559 --> 03:09:14,479
point to people before. But that's also one of the

3184
03:09:14,520 --> 03:09:17,000
reasons why the Nuremberg regime had to be implemented, okay,

3185
03:09:17,040 --> 03:09:19,719
in the in the in the literal ashes of the war.

3186
03:09:21,479 --> 03:09:23,680
And that's also the concord. I mean, I think Truman

3187
03:09:23,760 --> 03:09:28,639
just hated the Russians anyway, and Stalin also was trying

3188
03:09:28,639 --> 03:09:31,159
to puld him over because Stalin viewed kind of that

3189
03:09:31,200 --> 03:09:34,840
this is his moment, you know, like a time of

3190
03:09:34,879 --> 03:09:37,479
transition always is, like particularly if an executive dies in

3191
03:09:37,520 --> 03:09:40,639
office like Roosevelt. But yeah, that's the red the cold

3192
03:09:40,639 --> 03:09:42,920
wort jumped off rapidly, I mean to your point. Part

3193
03:09:42,959 --> 03:09:44,840
of that was public opinion and people saying, like, why

3194
03:09:44,879 --> 03:09:47,319
the hell are we in bed with stalin? You know, uh,

3195
03:09:48,079 --> 03:09:51,840
particularly when uh it is forced to poised to you know,

3196
03:09:51,879 --> 03:09:55,000
to march all the way to you know, to the

3197
03:09:55,079 --> 03:09:56,760
to the rivi Era, and is in this why we

3198
03:09:56,840 --> 03:09:58,840
like fought the war in the first place, supposedly to

3199
03:09:58,920 --> 03:10:01,239
like you know, freak captive name from fascism. But it's

3200
03:10:01,280 --> 03:10:02,760
okay if they go red, you know, what the hell

3201
03:10:02,840 --> 03:10:07,360
is this sound was part of it, but it it's

3202
03:10:07,399 --> 03:10:15,159
also uh the uh half of uh, well, well, it's

3203
03:10:15,200 --> 03:10:18,719
not really accomplished with a new deal, Yeah, I mean,

3204
03:10:18,760 --> 03:10:21,280
I mean in terms of like the the federal programs,

3205
03:10:21,360 --> 03:10:25,040
like the works programs and the subsidies and things, it

3206
03:10:25,079 --> 03:10:30,280
did basically nothing to to stimulate uh recovery, like like

3207
03:10:30,319 --> 03:10:33,360
structural recovery. What it did do was it meant like

3208
03:10:33,399 --> 03:10:36,280
guys weren't starving anymore, and people, you know, you didn't

3209
03:10:36,319 --> 03:10:42,440
cities weren't like choked with like with uh with with

3210
03:10:42,479 --> 03:10:44,520
like young men and women and boys and girls like

3211
03:10:44,600 --> 03:10:47,360
wandering aimlessly because they had no work and they were starving.

3212
03:10:48,000 --> 03:10:50,440
You know, it gave them something to do and it.

3213
03:10:50,719 --> 03:10:52,559
You know, even if you're just paying them in food stamps,

3214
03:10:52,559 --> 03:10:54,159
they get buy a loaf of bread and like a

3215
03:10:54,200 --> 03:10:59,360
plant of milk like that. When people are no longer hungry,

3216
03:10:59,440 --> 03:11:01,959
they that takes their mind off things. They just assume

3217
03:11:02,040 --> 03:11:04,719
that you know, whoever is providing them with these things

3218
03:11:04,879 --> 03:11:10,319
knows better. I'm not like putting shade on on Americans

3219
03:11:10,399 --> 03:11:12,479
the era. I'm just saying people in all times think

3220
03:11:12,520 --> 03:11:15,239
that way, not because they're stupid. I mean sometimes they are,

3221
03:11:15,360 --> 03:11:19,479
but it uh the degree to which the middle and

3222
03:11:19,840 --> 03:11:23,000
worrying classes got just wiped out. There's some insaying statistic

3223
03:11:23,079 --> 03:11:26,719
it was something like like something like forty percent of

3224
03:11:26,319 --> 03:11:29,280
the national wealth, like God, just like wiped out by

3225
03:11:29,319 --> 03:11:32,200
like the bank failure. Okay, like people had nothing. You know,

3226
03:11:32,200 --> 03:11:34,840
you you had millions of people who just got overnight

3227
03:11:34,840 --> 03:11:37,200
they had nothing anymore. Like what do you do? You know,

3228
03:11:37,239 --> 03:11:39,920
It's like I especially if you're some guy like a

3229
03:11:39,959 --> 03:11:42,079
wife and kids, you know, it's like I you know,

3230
03:11:42,079 --> 03:11:44,120
I got I got some I got some kid. I'm

3231
03:11:44,159 --> 03:11:46,399
terrified it's like gonna come out with polio or like

3232
03:11:46,479 --> 03:11:49,319
you know, die from malnutrition. You know, like I'm worried

3233
03:11:49,319 --> 03:11:51,040
that my wife's gonna have to resort to, like, you know,

3234
03:11:52,360 --> 03:11:54,719
literally like selling or pussy or something on the streets

3235
03:11:54,760 --> 03:11:58,280
we can eat. You know. It's like, I if mister

3236
03:11:58,360 --> 03:12:01,639
Roosevelt's gonna like hand you like ripped to buy government

3237
03:12:01,719 --> 03:12:03,920
cheese for digging a hole from no reason, Like you're

3238
03:12:03,959 --> 03:12:07,479
gonna be cool with that, okay, even if you know,

3239
03:12:07,680 --> 03:12:11,079
and you'll the rational side of your mind is gonna

3240
03:12:11,079 --> 03:12:13,120
work out later that like, well, why did this happen?

3241
03:12:13,200 --> 03:12:17,200
And stuff? But in the moment, you know, it's that's

3242
03:12:17,200 --> 03:12:20,280
all you're thinking, you know. So I mean that was, uh,

3243
03:12:20,600 --> 03:12:22,479
it was all of those things. But yeah, to your point,

3244
03:12:22,479 --> 03:12:24,840
I mean, that's why the that's why, that's why that

3245
03:12:24,959 --> 03:12:29,760
enterprise full of the Washington Moscow concord just fell apart rapidly.

3246
03:12:30,680 --> 03:12:32,840
I mean, and and that was a I mean, much

3247
03:12:32,840 --> 03:12:36,000
as Roosevelt did have have incredible political instincts, I mean objectively,

3248
03:12:36,000 --> 03:12:37,559
I'm not putting shine on him as like a good

3249
03:12:37,559 --> 03:12:41,600
man obviously, but that was a big blind spot of

3250
03:12:41,719 --> 03:12:46,239
his is because he obviously thought, I mean, Roosevelt wasn't

3251
03:12:46,239 --> 03:12:47,600
bad hell of hiss all adult life. He knew, he

3252
03:12:47,680 --> 03:12:49,319
knew he was gonna live to be an old man.

3253
03:12:49,479 --> 03:12:54,440
And I mean so, I mean, he he he obviously

3254
03:12:54,479 --> 03:12:57,879
believed that like oh this, you know that what hell

3255
03:12:57,959 --> 03:13:00,120
where the League of Nations failed? You know this, this

3256
03:13:00,239 --> 03:13:03,159
kind of American Soviet concord is just going to endure,

3257
03:13:03,239 --> 03:13:05,120
you know, because we see eye to eye, like even

3258
03:13:05,159 --> 03:13:07,479
though you know, the Russians might be brutal when they

3259
03:13:07,600 --> 03:13:10,799
you know they might, they might approach you know, uh,

3260
03:13:11,159 --> 03:13:14,600
political reality and and and differently than we do. But

3261
03:13:14,719 --> 03:13:16,639
you know, this is just going to endure because hey,

3262
03:13:16,680 --> 03:13:19,520
we you know, we we defeated fascism and you know

3263
03:13:19,559 --> 03:13:22,920
we we brought people, you know, uh we we we

3264
03:13:22,920 --> 03:13:25,479
were elevating man and things like he he. And I

3265
03:13:25,520 --> 03:13:28,600
don't know how anybody can believe that that, I mean,

3266
03:13:28,639 --> 03:13:31,639
the American and Russia would always be at odds in

3267
03:13:31,680 --> 03:13:35,440
some basic way. It's absurd that there's this and this

3268
03:13:35,680 --> 03:13:39,559
enmity right now, always that and no sectarian hostility of

3269
03:13:39,600 --> 03:13:45,920
a of a very very powerful minority. That the great

3270
03:13:45,920 --> 03:13:48,399
deal of power in America, particularly visa the foreign policy.

3271
03:13:48,440 --> 03:13:49,959
I don't want to get into that right now because

3272
03:13:49,959 --> 03:13:53,520
it's too off topic. But I'm not saying that it

3273
03:13:53,600 --> 03:13:56,520
makes any sense that America is at loggerheads of Russia

3274
03:13:56,760 --> 03:13:59,520
perpetually these days. But there would never be some kind

3275
03:13:59,559 --> 03:14:02,600
of friendly concord between Washington and Moscow no matter what,

3276
03:14:03,520 --> 03:14:07,559
particularly considering you know, when you had the Communist Party

3277
03:14:07,600 --> 03:14:11,360
of the Soviet Union, you know, is is the regime there? Like,

3278
03:14:11,399 --> 03:14:14,079
that's ridiculous. But so that's one of those big blind spot.

3279
03:14:14,159 --> 03:14:14,920
But he did think that.

3280
03:14:16,920 --> 03:14:20,159
Speaker 1: Even somebody like Paton understood. He at the end of

3281
03:14:20,200 --> 03:14:22,879
the war, he's like, well, the armies are here, let's go,

3282
03:14:23,479 --> 03:14:27,639
let's march to Russia. And then he gets what two

3283
03:14:27,680 --> 03:14:29,319
weeks later, he gets hit by a car and he dies.

3284
03:14:29,680 --> 03:14:30,920
It's not very long after that.

3285
03:14:31,639 --> 03:14:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I've heard a lot of guys in the right,

3286
03:14:34,079 --> 03:14:36,879
particularly like a good a good, a good buddy of mine.

3287
03:14:36,879 --> 03:14:40,959
He's an Iraq warvett. He's a really cool Peckerwood kind

3288
03:14:41,000 --> 03:14:43,920
of guy. But he's you know, he was in the

3289
03:14:43,959 --> 03:14:46,520
Marine Corps, not in the army, but he he really

3290
03:14:46,639 --> 03:14:50,639
likes to read about these these uh, these military figures

3291
03:14:50,639 --> 03:14:53,200
obviously because I mean he's he's a military type, and

3292
03:14:53,280 --> 03:14:57,000
that's dope. I really like that those guys participate on

3293
03:14:57,120 --> 03:15:03,000
my platforms. But he's asked me more than once like, well,

3294
03:15:03,200 --> 03:15:05,360
I mean he's convinced that Patten was murdered on account

3295
03:15:05,399 --> 03:15:07,680
of the fact that, Yeah, to your point, I mean,

3296
03:15:07,760 --> 03:15:09,879
Patton really was not at all with the program, and

3297
03:15:10,600 --> 03:15:14,479
I mean Patton goes problems for for civilian leadership as

3298
03:15:14,559 --> 03:15:20,559
well as the military brass anyway. But I'd have to

3299
03:15:20,639 --> 03:15:22,680
deep dive into it more. I mean, I know the

3300
03:15:22,760 --> 03:15:29,000
circummends that he died. I know that it's weird. I'm

3301
03:15:29,040 --> 03:15:30,360
not prepared to go as far as to say he

3302
03:15:30,479 --> 03:15:32,719
was murdered because I think that's impossible, but because I

3303
03:15:33,079 --> 03:15:35,319
I'd have to spend more time with the evidence. But yeah,

3304
03:15:35,360 --> 03:15:39,440
it certainly is strange. There's a there's a lot of

3305
03:15:39,520 --> 03:15:43,200
fastening stuff at Piper's Yak, and Pipers like a hero

3306
03:15:43,319 --> 03:15:48,000
of mine, you know, the leap stend Art, the commander,

3307
03:15:48,600 --> 03:15:50,559
not overall commander. I mean he was a quote of

3308
03:15:50,600 --> 03:15:55,520
a colonel, but uh he uh. You know, he originally

3309
03:15:55,799 --> 03:15:58,479
was under a death sentence that Doacout trials, these trials

3310
03:15:58,600 --> 03:16:00,079
whatever he held. There were some of the second and

3311
03:16:00,159 --> 03:16:04,040
there the second wave of war crimes trials. They were

3312
03:16:04,040 --> 03:16:06,280
actually held at the doc Out camp. They're not called

3313
03:16:06,280 --> 03:16:09,959
the Dagout trials because it was. It wasn't a trial

3314
03:16:10,040 --> 03:16:13,479
of the of the of the KZ types who who

3315
03:16:13,559 --> 03:16:16,040
guarded Duco. It was it was the leap stand dark

3316
03:16:16,120 --> 03:16:21,040
boys of as guys who and they were tried like

3317
03:16:21,200 --> 03:16:24,719
at that facility. Okay, that's why. But uh, this American

3318
03:16:24,799 --> 03:16:28,440
captain whose name eludes me, he was he was captured

3319
03:16:28,520 --> 03:16:31,319
during the batil of the Bulge, and uh he got

3320
03:16:31,360 --> 03:16:34,280
to know Peeper pretty well. This comp grew conf grew

3321
03:16:34,399 --> 03:16:38,760
Peeper like it captured him. And yeah, he he relayed that, uh,

3322
03:16:39,239 --> 03:16:43,559
he and Peeper became pretty good friends. And uh he

3323
03:16:43,719 --> 03:16:48,280
told uh Danny S. Parker, who wrote a couple of

3324
03:16:48,360 --> 03:16:52,719
great books on Yack and Peeper, and this this captain

3325
03:16:52,760 --> 03:16:54,479
relayed to him and and kind of Parker kind of

3326
03:16:54,479 --> 03:16:56,120
took his oral history and he said that, yeah, he's

3327
03:16:56,200 --> 03:16:59,840
like he's like, I'm not gonna lie, you know. He's like,

3328
03:16:59,879 --> 03:17:01,799
I I'm like, you know, Peeper is a great guy.

3329
03:17:02,000 --> 03:17:05,280
I I I frankly like the Boiser's command, Like how

3330
03:17:05,280 --> 03:17:08,559
am I shooting at these guys alliance with the Ivans?

3331
03:17:10,440 --> 03:17:12,440
And granted this guy was a cap young calf that

3332
03:17:12,520 --> 03:17:17,520
he wasn't a general, but I, yeah, I don't I don't.

3333
03:17:17,719 --> 03:17:21,879
I I I I I can't imagine that those thoughts

3334
03:17:21,920 --> 03:17:25,280
are not into the minds of any remotely you know,

3335
03:17:26,159 --> 03:17:29,239
grounded man under arms in the European theater on the

3336
03:17:29,280 --> 03:17:31,319
American side. I mean, I'll get it not but yeah,

3337
03:17:32,959 --> 03:17:35,959
what do you Uh, let's we're coming up in an hour.

3338
03:17:36,159 --> 03:17:38,120
Let's like wrap this up and then next session will

3339
03:17:38,159 --> 03:17:40,559
take up whatever you want. But yeah, what what do

3340
03:17:40,600 --> 03:17:45,559
you want to deal with the closing or did we

3341
03:17:45,639 --> 03:17:48,120
miss anything? I don't think so, man, I just want

3342
03:17:48,120 --> 03:17:51,399
to make sure that, like I said, I've taken steps

3343
03:17:51,440 --> 03:17:54,760
to to kind of progress more linearly. I've got kind

3344
03:17:54,760 --> 03:17:56,760
of a scattershot mind. I mean, I hope it doesn't

3345
03:17:56,799 --> 03:18:01,200
mean I'm going senile, but I uh I uh, I

3346
03:18:01,319 --> 03:18:05,399
take I take criticism seriously. The responsibile over been overwhelmingly

3347
03:18:05,520 --> 03:18:08,280
positive to this series. That is dope. I'm very honored

3348
03:18:08,319 --> 03:18:10,799
by that, and I take great pride in that because

3349
03:18:10,799 --> 03:18:15,479
that's whole point. But uh, I've taken steps to to

3350
03:18:15,719 --> 03:18:18,840
proceed more and more linear terms so it's easier to follow.

3351
03:18:19,040 --> 03:18:22,360
And I also want each hour we do to kind

3352
03:18:22,399 --> 03:18:26,879
of cover a different aspect of things, and it's your

3353
03:18:26,920 --> 03:18:30,120
show quite literally. So next session. Yeah, I think we

3354
03:18:30,120 --> 03:18:34,040
should have recover the like Churchill's war against Hiller, we

3355
03:18:34,079 --> 03:18:36,639
should cover Barbarossa. Either one is fine, but.

3356
03:18:37,120 --> 03:18:42,760
Speaker 1: I think I think the England, England's play in all

3357
03:18:42,840 --> 03:18:46,000
this probably should come into because there's a lot of

3358
03:18:46,040 --> 03:18:51,239
interesting There's a lot of interesting stuff there. Hitler wasn't

3359
03:18:51,680 --> 03:18:54,360
particularly like the biggest fan of the United States, but

3360
03:18:54,520 --> 03:18:56,000
he he did like England.

3361
03:18:56,680 --> 03:19:00,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and there's the whole Hess flight to the UK.

3362
03:19:00,959 --> 03:19:03,840
A lot of intrigues and fanc anting stuff there. Yeah. No,

3363
03:19:04,000 --> 03:19:06,760
that had like nothing more man than they covered it. Cool.

3364
03:19:07,319 --> 03:19:10,360
Speaker 1: All right, Well, remind everybody about your substack and we'll

3365
03:19:10,479 --> 03:19:10,680
end it.

3366
03:19:11,319 --> 03:19:15,239
Speaker 2: Okay. You can find me a few different places. You

3367
03:19:15,319 --> 03:19:19,319
can find my substick at real Thomas seven seven seven

3368
03:19:19,799 --> 03:19:22,799
dot substack dot com. You can find me on Twitter

3369
03:19:23,239 --> 03:19:27,879
at number seven h O M A S. Seven seven seven.

3370
03:19:28,440 --> 03:19:31,040
You can find me on gab at real Thomas seven

3371
03:19:31,120 --> 03:19:35,760
seven seven. I've got a book out, uh science fiction brand.

3372
03:19:35,840 --> 03:19:39,159
I'm eminently releasing another one in the series through Imperium Press.

3373
03:19:39,200 --> 03:19:42,200
It's called steel Storm. I think you should read it.

3374
03:19:42,319 --> 03:19:44,840
It's dope. I know it is because people tell me

3375
03:19:44,959 --> 03:19:47,760
it is. I didn't think anybody would read it, but

3376
03:19:47,840 --> 03:19:51,639
they did, and that is that is great. But yeah, yeah,

3377
03:19:51,799 --> 03:19:53,159
that is what I do, and that is where you

3378
03:19:53,200 --> 03:19:53,639
can find me.

3379
03:19:55,360 --> 03:19:58,680
Speaker 1: Until the next time. Thank you everyone. Back to the

3380
03:19:58,719 --> 03:20:01,319
Pea Show, Thomas is Fact.

3381
03:20:01,360 --> 03:20:05,000
Speaker 2: What's gone on? Man? Okay, thanks for hosting once again.

3382
03:20:05,159 --> 03:20:09,280
I'm really enjoying these discussions, and I think it's important

3383
03:20:09,319 --> 03:20:13,719
for posterity, not because I have any kind of you know,

3384
03:20:13,799 --> 03:20:17,000
profound wisdom to drop on people, but I think the

3385
03:20:17,040 --> 03:20:19,559
record from a revisionist perspective, it's important to get that

3386
03:20:19,680 --> 03:20:21,440
out there. And like too many of these sources, I mean,

3387
03:20:21,559 --> 03:20:25,120
even if they're a lot more accessible now than twenty

3388
03:20:25,239 --> 03:20:28,959
or thirty years ago, you know, they remain kind of esoteric.

3389
03:20:29,079 --> 03:20:31,559
And I think we're kind of doing God's work by

3390
03:20:32,319 --> 03:20:34,680
you know, making these things more immediately available to people,

3391
03:20:34,879 --> 03:20:38,440
or at least, you know, at least introducing them to

3392
03:20:39,360 --> 03:20:42,280
the modes of thought, you know, a scholarship that maybe

3393
03:20:42,280 --> 03:20:44,120
they're not familiar with, you know, because there is a

3394
03:20:44,159 --> 03:20:48,799
bully pulpit of of bad history that has disseminated everywhere

3395
03:20:48,879 --> 03:20:51,360
and it's almost like the weather, like man made weather

3396
03:20:51,639 --> 03:20:54,159
or something. So yeah, I think this is important. What

3397
03:20:54,200 --> 03:20:55,920
we're doing. It's not just because I enjoyed talking to

3398
03:20:55,920 --> 03:20:58,280
you when you're my friend and I like doing this

3399
03:20:58,399 --> 03:20:59,000
kind of stuff.

3400
03:21:00,239 --> 03:21:02,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to figure out someplace to put all of

3401
03:21:02,360 --> 03:21:07,079
these episodes as like a series. That's I think I

3402
03:21:07,120 --> 03:21:08,120
know where I'm gonna do it too.

3403
03:21:09,319 --> 03:21:09,920
Speaker 2: All right, So.

3404
03:21:11,680 --> 03:21:14,760
Speaker 1: Before we started recording, you had mentioned that we had

3405
03:21:14,799 --> 03:21:17,760
talked about the US getting into the war on the

3406
03:21:17,840 --> 03:21:20,440
last episode, and you want to talk today, which is

3407
03:21:20,440 --> 03:21:23,559
probably you said it's probably gonna be two episodes about Churchill,

3408
03:21:24,680 --> 03:21:27,520
but you said you wanted to do some mop up

3409
03:21:27,559 --> 03:21:28,920
on that on the last episode.

3410
03:21:30,040 --> 03:21:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to just kind of just kind of

3411
03:21:33,479 --> 03:21:37,520
an addendum to the to the New Dealer Revolution, which

3412
03:21:37,559 --> 03:21:40,319
is I mean, mainly we were talking about we'll get

3413
03:21:40,360 --> 03:21:42,000
more into kind of the nuts and bolts of the

3414
03:21:42,040 --> 03:21:45,399
ethics of the American War and and some of those things,

3415
03:21:45,719 --> 03:21:49,239
you know, kind of when we get into the aftermath

3416
03:21:49,319 --> 03:21:51,000
in Nuremberg, because I think that they would be the

3417
03:21:51,079 --> 03:21:53,639
more proper way to treat it. Because I'm not a

3418
03:21:53,680 --> 03:21:56,920
military science guy or like a military officer or something,

3419
03:21:56,920 --> 03:21:59,079
you know, so I don't really get into the I mean,

3420
03:21:59,120 --> 03:22:00,760
if people want to talk about them military side of

3421
03:22:00,799 --> 03:22:03,079
things like that's dope as fascinating. I'm probably not the

3422
03:22:03,120 --> 03:22:04,879
guy to really get into that. I'm, you know, a

3423
03:22:04,920 --> 03:22:09,079
political theory guy and a revisionist, but I kind of

3424
03:22:09,120 --> 03:22:12,319
wanted to explore, like all the policy facets of the

3425
03:22:12,399 --> 03:22:16,040
New Deal and convey that it was truly a revolutionary

3426
03:22:16,280 --> 03:22:21,120
enterprise and it touched and concerned every aspect of American life,

3427
03:22:21,360 --> 03:22:25,120
you know, socially, politically, economically, all of that. And I

3428
03:22:25,159 --> 03:22:28,559
think we covered that pretty completely last episode. But you know,

3429
03:22:28,680 --> 03:22:33,520
kind of the final kind of the final uh feature, uh,

3430
03:22:35,159 --> 03:22:38,520
not just in linear terms of what we were talking about,

3431
03:22:38,600 --> 03:22:43,200
but kind of the uh kind of the ultimate kind

3432
03:22:43,239 --> 03:22:46,319
of the penultimate act of the New of the New

3433
03:22:46,399 --> 03:22:52,920
Dealers and Roosevelt himself was uh, the unconditional Surrender declaration,

3434
03:22:53,360 --> 03:22:56,959
and incident to that what was called the Morgent Foul Plan,

3435
03:22:57,520 --> 03:23:01,920
and the latter did not actually become policy, but something

3436
03:23:02,120 --> 03:23:04,559
like that was perceived by the X's powers as what

3437
03:23:04,639 --> 03:23:08,319
America's ultimate intention was. So we're gonna talk about how

3438
03:23:08,360 --> 03:23:10,479
they were, We're gonna talk about how Germany, Japan, and

3439
03:23:10,600 --> 03:23:15,360
wills a degree Italy responded to Roosevelt's declarations and American

3440
03:23:15,680 --> 03:23:19,040
moves and why they didn't you know, quote unquote surrender

3441
03:23:19,479 --> 03:23:23,440
uh before they were utterly devastated. This is fundamentally important

3442
03:23:23,440 --> 03:23:27,159
to understand. Okay, there's this common myth that I run

3443
03:23:27,159 --> 03:23:29,760
into all the time. And Thomas Fleming, who was my

3444
03:23:29,799 --> 03:23:34,040
favorite historians, he's deceased now, but he and David Irving

3445
03:23:34,200 --> 03:23:38,760
are about the only historians who really addressed this directly. Uh.

3446
03:23:39,360 --> 03:23:43,000
There's just war theorists and in Article two kind of

3447
03:23:43,040 --> 03:23:45,520
constitutional scholars like John you who deal with it and

3448
03:23:45,719 --> 03:23:52,719
very kind of legalistic terms, but in truly historical and

3449
03:23:52,840 --> 03:23:56,719
ethical terms and existential terms. Uh, it's not something that's

3450
03:23:56,719 --> 03:24:01,559
really addressed. I'm constantly hearing guys who are otherwise learned

3451
03:24:01,639 --> 03:24:04,479
declare that, oh, well, you know, the Jabs were crazy,

3452
03:24:04,520 --> 03:24:08,680
they wouldn't surrender. You know. It's like, Okay, something happened

3453
03:24:08,680 --> 03:24:12,520
at the Costablanca conference I think forty three Roosevelt and

3454
03:24:12,680 --> 03:24:18,440
Churchill and mister Stalin, although Roosevelt made the proclamation, declared

3455
03:24:18,520 --> 03:24:22,200
that nothing short of unconditional surrender would end the Second

3456
03:24:22,239 --> 03:24:25,520
World War? Like, what does the unconditional surrender mean? People

3457
03:24:25,520 --> 03:24:29,000
would ask Roosevelt this, and he said that, well, you

3458
03:24:29,040 --> 03:24:32,959
know what means you know, total and unconditional capitulation to

3459
03:24:33,079 --> 03:24:37,920
the allies, you know, or or face utter annihilation. Well,

3460
03:24:38,399 --> 03:24:42,079
America cut off all diplomatic relations with the Axes. So

3461
03:24:42,200 --> 03:24:43,760
it's like, what does then mean? That means you're gonna

3462
03:24:43,799 --> 03:24:47,319
endlessly attack us until you decide to stop attacking. I

3463
03:24:47,399 --> 03:24:50,600
mean that makes that that makes it literally impossible to surrender.

3464
03:24:51,680 --> 03:24:54,399
And if you want to understand why the Germans literally

3465
03:24:54,440 --> 03:24:57,280
fought to the last man, it was two things. It

3466
03:24:57,360 --> 03:25:01,280
was number one, because the alternative was, uh, they were

3467
03:25:01,280 --> 03:25:02,600
trying to get as many of their people out of

3468
03:25:02,600 --> 03:25:06,000
the East as as the as the Red Army carried

3469
03:25:06,040 --> 03:25:09,719
out this this mass campaign of rape, homicide and just

3470
03:25:09,840 --> 03:25:12,719
utter devastation, and they wanted to get as many the

3471
03:25:12,799 --> 03:25:16,440
people west as they could. Okay, because whatever the Americans

3472
03:25:16,440 --> 03:25:19,760
were gonna do, it was not that bad. Okay. Secondly,

3473
03:25:21,159 --> 03:25:27,600
if uh, if if the opposing force neither Officer Corps,

3474
03:25:29,040 --> 03:25:33,840
Northern Military Leadership, Northern Civilian leadership, Northern Diplomatic Office is

3475
03:25:33,920 --> 03:25:37,360
will speak to you, it's quite literally impossible to surrender,

3476
03:25:38,079 --> 03:25:39,319
you know, I mean, like, what do you do when

3477
03:25:39,360 --> 03:25:41,479
they're when when there's a thousand bomber raid over your

3478
03:25:41,520 --> 03:25:43,840
city you're supposed to run outside and wave a white flag.

3479
03:25:44,520 --> 03:25:47,040
You know, like you're like what, like, how does that

3480
03:25:47,120 --> 03:25:51,079
actually work? So essentially, the Second World War stopped what

3481
03:25:51,159 --> 03:25:54,680
American decided it was gonna stop. I mean, in Europe

3482
03:25:54,680 --> 03:25:58,159
had stopped, uh, you know, in the Red Army conquered

3483
03:25:58,200 --> 03:26:02,040
Berlin and there was nobody left aventially, like who was

3484
03:26:02,120 --> 03:26:06,719
capable of taking up arms or profiting meaningful resistance. And

3485
03:26:06,760 --> 03:26:10,360
I mean when when the hammer and sickle was hoisted

3486
03:26:10,399 --> 03:26:12,040
above the ruins of the rices dog, I mean that,

3487
03:26:12,520 --> 03:26:14,399
I mean, that was it. I mean in the case

3488
03:26:14,440 --> 03:26:18,079
of Japan, you know, there's this there's this mythology that like,

3489
03:26:18,159 --> 03:26:21,719
well we had to nuke Japan or this people are

3490
03:26:21,760 --> 03:26:24,079
constantly banning that, well we would have lost a million

3491
03:26:24,159 --> 03:26:27,200
US servicemen invading Japan. It's like, okay, why would you

3492
03:26:27,280 --> 03:26:30,120
have to invade Japan? Japan and no capacity to make war,

3493
03:26:30,280 --> 03:26:35,680
it was starving, it was defeated. Incendiary incendiary raids were

3494
03:26:35,760 --> 03:26:38,440
being run over Tokyo where one hundred thousand people were

3495
03:26:38,520 --> 03:26:41,559
dying in forty hours. Like what the hell is Japan

3496
03:26:41,639 --> 03:26:43,680
and to do to you? You know, like and how

3497
03:26:44,079 --> 03:26:46,959
why why you need to invade and occupy it or nuked,

3498
03:26:47,399 --> 03:26:51,760
you know, the way in the West for about two

3499
03:26:51,799 --> 03:26:55,639
thousand years, the way we waged war, not counting things

3500
03:26:56,000 --> 03:26:59,440
you know, like the like the Greek Oregans, the Persians,

3501
03:26:59,520 --> 03:27:02,600
or the Romans, warrigons, courthage, you know, the way the

3502
03:27:02,680 --> 03:27:04,639
way we raised wars. We come to terms with the

3503
03:27:04,680 --> 03:27:07,360
defeated enemy. We don't simply assault them until there was

3504
03:27:07,399 --> 03:27:10,200
none of them left, or you know, declared that we

3505
03:27:10,239 --> 03:27:12,360
will not accept their surrender and then claim that they're

3506
03:27:12,399 --> 03:27:15,120
crazy and refuse a surrender by not fighting a way

3507
03:27:15,159 --> 03:27:17,200
to not not not finding a way to lay on

3508
03:27:17,239 --> 03:27:20,239
their arms, and we refuse to accept, uh we when

3509
03:27:20,280 --> 03:27:24,159
we refuse to accept that, uh that kind of capitulations,

3510
03:27:24,239 --> 03:27:27,559
I mean, that's that's that's that's crazy, you know, of itself.

3511
03:27:27,639 --> 03:27:32,040
And but it uh so, I mean that that really

3512
03:27:32,120 --> 03:27:36,120
really stiffened Axis resolve. But it also was a show.

3513
03:27:36,239 --> 03:27:39,559
I mean, the whole the whole raison detch of the

3514
03:27:39,600 --> 03:27:43,120
New Deal was was the annihilation of of of certain

3515
03:27:43,159 --> 03:27:49,520
forms of culture and political modalities together which constitute fascism

3516
03:27:49,600 --> 03:27:51,959
in the mind of the New Dealer. That's what it was.

3517
03:27:52,799 --> 03:27:57,079
And I brought up the Morgan Vow Plan because Henry

3518
03:27:57,159 --> 03:28:01,959
morgan Thow, who's the Treasury secretary, which seems like kind

3519
03:28:02,000 --> 03:28:04,959
of a middling cabinet position to a lot of administrations.

3520
03:28:05,040 --> 03:28:07,479
But like we talked about, in the New Deal regime,

3521
03:28:08,159 --> 03:28:10,079
there's a lot of posts in none of themselves would

3522
03:28:10,120 --> 03:28:12,639
not seem to confer great power upon the man in

3523
03:28:12,680 --> 03:28:15,920
the post. But you know, you had people close to

3524
03:28:16,040 --> 03:28:18,440
Roosevelt who didn't even have any kind of formal cabinet post.

3525
03:28:18,479 --> 03:28:21,600
They were his minister without portfolio, or they were guys

3526
03:28:21,719 --> 03:28:25,440
like Somener Wells who you know, weren't they were you

3527
03:28:25,479 --> 03:28:27,799
know who in his case was under Secretary of State,

3528
03:28:27,920 --> 03:28:31,200
but he was the defacto will kind of chief diplomat. Well,

3529
03:28:31,280 --> 03:28:34,319
Henry Morgan Thout is this piping secretary of the Treasury.

3530
03:28:35,639 --> 03:28:39,440
He had tremendous authority in structuring policy and everything in

3531
03:28:39,479 --> 03:28:43,000
the New Deal, from its foreign policy to its machinations

3532
03:28:43,079 --> 03:28:47,040
to uh, you know, bringing America to war with Japan.

3533
03:28:47,600 --> 03:28:51,159
When it became clear that there probably was not going

3534
03:28:51,200 --> 03:28:54,079
to be some sort of there was not going to

3535
03:28:54,120 --> 03:28:57,079
be some sort of a Lusitania type incident with the

3536
03:28:57,159 --> 03:29:00,719
Third Reich, that would you know, provide a catalyst, you know,

3537
03:29:00,799 --> 03:29:04,319
everything from that that those kinds of intrigues to the

3538
03:29:04,360 --> 03:29:07,959
civilian conservation core to the uh the kind of quasi

3539
03:29:08,399 --> 03:29:13,879
you know, Keynesian uh economic corporative scheme that that was

3540
03:29:13,959 --> 03:29:17,200
devised you know, early on in the in the regime.

3541
03:29:17,280 --> 03:29:18,559
I mean that a lot of this came from Henry

3542
03:29:18,600 --> 03:29:23,520
Morgan though, and Morgan thou developed uh what he what

3543
03:29:23,680 --> 03:29:27,920
he considered to be a uh a post uh victory

3544
03:29:28,399 --> 03:29:32,239
regime for Germany called the Morganel Plan. That was entailed

3545
03:29:32,360 --> 03:29:36,840
was basically ethnically cleansing Germany, uh, you know, reducing its

3546
03:29:36,879 --> 03:29:40,159
population by about a third. He wasn't specific about how

3547
03:29:40,200 --> 03:29:42,360
this would be done, but one can imagine, you know,

3548
03:29:42,440 --> 03:29:44,680
we talked about suppressing the birth rate and things like this,

3549
03:29:45,000 --> 03:29:48,159
like an unofficial capacities and one can imagine what that

3550
03:29:48,200 --> 03:29:50,879
would mean. Uh. He wandered a strip but of all

3551
03:29:51,040 --> 03:29:55,200
of all of all modern industry and divided into basically

3552
03:29:55,360 --> 03:30:00,959
four states. Uh, like many states, the only economic activity

3553
03:30:01,000 --> 03:30:04,360
would basically be subsistence farming. You know. Uh, you want

3554
03:30:04,399 --> 03:30:08,319
to restrict people's education to like basic literacy, like essentially

3555
03:30:08,680 --> 03:30:12,760
like Margatha, he was a crazy Zionist type who wanted

3556
03:30:13,200 --> 03:30:16,280
His plan for Germany was basically what Himlin's plan was

3557
03:30:16,440 --> 03:30:21,399
for for for for the Russian hand Land. Okay, he

3558
03:30:21,479 --> 03:30:24,399
basically wanted to create like a population kind of half

3559
03:30:24,440 --> 03:30:27,239
literate agrarian slaves. It would have like never rise up again.

3560
03:30:27,920 --> 03:30:31,600
And uh, this is totally insane for all kinds of reasons,

3561
03:30:32,719 --> 03:30:35,040
particularly because at that point I think it could still

3562
03:30:35,079 --> 03:30:38,319
be said that America was, at least in terms of

3563
03:30:38,719 --> 03:30:41,159
the constitution of its population, was still you know, like

3564
03:30:41,239 --> 03:30:46,000
a white Western Christian country. And I that that's not

3565
03:30:46,120 --> 03:30:51,440
just rotesque, it's it's crazy. And even even Churchill, like

3566
03:30:52,079 --> 03:30:56,840
kind of awful brute that he was, said, this is

3567
03:30:56,920 --> 03:30:59,440
totally insane, and like how would this be workable anyway?

3568
03:31:00,120 --> 03:31:05,159
And you know it London to the to the to

3569
03:31:05,280 --> 03:31:08,000
the credit of uh some of the people in churchill

3570
03:31:08,000 --> 03:31:09,719
dinner circle, they said, look, if you're gonna do that,

3571
03:31:09,799 --> 03:31:11,879
you might as well just see the entirety of you know,

3572
03:31:12,559 --> 03:31:15,200
of of Germany to Ivan and and let the Soviets

3573
03:31:15,239 --> 03:31:16,959
do what they want with it, because like, what's the

3574
03:31:17,040 --> 03:31:19,680
point of this, you know, is it other other than

3575
03:31:19,719 --> 03:31:22,520
the basil you know, ethnically claims and punish the Germans.

3576
03:31:22,680 --> 03:31:27,040
But you know that's that's not that that's ethics, aciety,

3577
03:31:27,079 --> 03:31:29,920
that's that's not that's not viable. And in the in

3578
03:31:29,959 --> 03:31:33,239
the in the emerging strategic landscape, and somebody's the UK

3579
03:31:33,440 --> 03:31:36,920
was more realistic about the Soviet Union than on than

3580
03:31:36,920 --> 03:31:39,120
the United States was, I mean, which which is ironic,

3581
03:31:39,319 --> 03:31:42,319
but I as we get into the person of mister Churchill,

3582
03:31:42,360 --> 03:31:45,479
I think it maybe go up parent as to why

3583
03:31:45,559 --> 03:31:49,639
that is. But I just I wanted to clarify some

3584
03:31:49,719 --> 03:31:52,000
of those final points because I I was pretty certain

3585
03:31:52,079 --> 03:31:53,680
that that people would have called me on it had

3586
03:31:53,719 --> 03:31:57,079
I not. And UH, I just think it. I just

3587
03:31:57,120 --> 03:32:01,040
think it was an important addendum UH to UH to

3588
03:32:01,200 --> 03:32:05,120
the UH to the New Deal, UH to the New

3589
03:32:05,159 --> 03:32:08,520
Deal regime. Do you want to get into you want

3590
03:32:08,559 --> 03:32:12,520
to get into in Churchill's War? Yeah, just jump right in, Okay,

3591
03:32:14,639 --> 03:32:18,520
the UH. I think the way I'm saying Churchill, I mean,

3592
03:32:18,600 --> 03:32:22,559
for for this segment we're laying down today, I kind

3593
03:32:22,559 --> 03:32:24,079
of want to get into the man of Churchill and

3594
03:32:24,159 --> 03:32:27,360
without being too speculative or or needlesy punitive kind of

3595
03:32:27,399 --> 03:32:31,639
his character not I I don't generally delve into that

3596
03:32:31,760 --> 03:32:35,000
in history, even when we're talking about wartime executives. But

3597
03:32:35,079 --> 03:32:39,000
in Churchill's case. I think it's essential, Uh the person

3598
03:32:39,079 --> 03:32:44,719
at Churchill is this essential understanding the UK's war. It's

3599
03:32:44,760 --> 03:32:49,399
the New Deal ideology of anti fascism is essential understanding

3600
03:32:49,440 --> 03:32:54,239
the American War. One of the one of the one

3601
03:32:54,239 --> 03:32:58,319
of the bizarre things about Churchill, and I even people

3602
03:32:58,360 --> 03:33:03,879
who had it basically amiable relationship with him made the

3603
03:33:03,920 --> 03:33:07,479
point that Churchill basically was not at all consistent in

3604
03:33:08,040 --> 03:33:12,719
his sympathies, in his statements. Things almost seem to be

3605
03:33:12,840 --> 03:33:16,440
something of a game to him in an almost cliched way.

3606
03:33:17,840 --> 03:33:19,799
I think it was David Irving. I can't remember where

3607
03:33:19,799 --> 03:33:23,000
I read this initially, but it's It's been sourced by

3608
03:33:23,040 --> 03:33:24,600
a few people, but I think I read it in

3609
03:33:24,719 --> 03:33:32,280
David Irving's two value treatment of Churchill. In March nineteen

3610
03:33:32,280 --> 03:33:35,559
forty six, Churchill went on the Churchill went on a

3611
03:33:35,639 --> 03:33:38,959
speaking tour of the United States because he was very

3612
03:33:39,040 --> 03:33:40,840
much in demand. I mean, America has always had this

3613
03:33:40,920 --> 03:33:44,280
kind of peculiar fascination with the UK, and I mean

3614
03:33:44,959 --> 03:33:48,440
the Churchill cult was already well established then, not just

3615
03:33:48,719 --> 03:33:50,719
you know, in the UK proper, but in America. And

3616
03:33:50,799 --> 03:33:57,479
I believe that endors to this day excuse me. Churchill

3617
03:33:57,479 --> 03:34:04,200
was speaking in Fulton, Missouri. He began unconditionally praising Stalin.

3618
03:34:04,879 --> 03:34:07,120
You know, Stalin is a great man. He's the one

3619
03:34:07,239 --> 03:34:09,920
true like you know, true humanist in Russia. You know,

3620
03:34:10,000 --> 03:34:12,040
like he really understands, you know, what, why why we

3621
03:34:12,159 --> 03:34:14,200
fought the war, and people were kind of like it gasped,

3622
03:34:14,719 --> 03:34:17,399
you know, like in this audience, you know, because this

3623
03:34:17,559 --> 03:34:20,000
is Middle America, you know, and even even people who

3624
03:34:20,040 --> 03:34:22,879
were basically similar to Roosevelt and the New dal Enterprise.

3625
03:34:23,239 --> 03:34:25,040
I mean, first of all, mifter Rosevelt was in the

3626
03:34:25,040 --> 03:34:29,879
grave by this point. Secondly, i'd speculate, I mean, it

3627
03:34:29,920 --> 03:34:32,680
goes out saying I mean even even people who who'd

3628
03:34:32,719 --> 03:34:36,920
been very much on board with the war effort, you know,

3629
03:34:36,959 --> 03:34:38,760
they were not they were not gonna respond well to

3630
03:34:39,840 --> 03:34:44,600
to these these kinds of glowing uh suggestions about the

3631
03:34:44,719 --> 03:34:49,600
character mister Stalin. So Churchill discerns that his audience is uh,

3632
03:34:50,920 --> 03:34:54,239
it's kind of he's losing his audience. So he quickly

3633
03:34:54,319 --> 03:34:55,959
recovers this is oh, I mean, I mean, I just

3634
03:34:56,040 --> 03:34:58,559
meant the Communist Party of very discipline and very brave men,

3635
03:34:58,639 --> 03:35:00,520
you know, when we we know this because of their

3636
03:35:00,559 --> 03:35:04,639
great sacrifice in Berlin to defeat fascism. But of course,

3637
03:35:04,680 --> 03:35:06,719
you know, a mister Churchill, you know, as you all know,

3638
03:35:06,920 --> 03:35:10,159
like I commanded White armies against the Bolsheviks in nineteen nineteen,

3639
03:35:10,280 --> 03:35:14,799
you know, and I you know, my, my, My credentials

3640
03:35:14,840 --> 03:35:17,440
in this regard are impeccable. You know. I'm I'm a

3641
03:35:17,479 --> 03:35:20,399
defender of freedom, you know. I I've never had any

3642
03:35:20,440 --> 03:35:26,479
truck with socialism. So John Davenport, who was this at

3643
03:35:26,520 --> 03:35:29,079
the time, he was kind of a kind of a

3644
03:35:29,120 --> 03:35:32,399
well known journalist, kind of like a thinking man's kind

3645
03:35:32,440 --> 03:35:34,079
of like a thinking man's welder crime play. And that

3646
03:35:34,159 --> 03:35:36,399
makes any sense. I can't think of a better way

3647
03:35:36,440 --> 03:35:39,319
to characterize him. It was at church he says, Okay,

3648
03:35:39,479 --> 03:35:42,879
you know there's a Churchill, and that's the case. How

3649
03:35:42,879 --> 03:35:44,920
would you how do you capitulate we did a Yalta

3650
03:35:45,040 --> 03:35:46,920
Like how did you basically hand the world to Stalin?

3651
03:35:47,920 --> 03:35:50,040
You know? In terms of us waited off and said, oh, well,

3652
03:35:50,399 --> 03:35:52,360
the war had to be ended at all costs, you know.

3653
03:35:53,319 --> 03:35:55,319
But the thing is yelt didn't end the war, and

3654
03:35:56,120 --> 03:35:59,200
the Soviets really didn't do anything to bring down the Japanese.

3655
03:35:59,280 --> 03:36:02,399
They seized, they seize the carle Islands. I'm sure I'm

3656
03:36:02,440 --> 03:36:05,920
butchering that pronunciation, but I mean posti alta, I mean

3657
03:36:06,000 --> 03:36:10,120
Okinawa happened, Ewo Jima happened. You know, America America dropped

3658
03:36:10,159 --> 03:36:13,000
two nuclear bombs on Japan, atomic bombs or rather like,

3659
03:36:13,040 --> 03:36:16,200
oh you know how there this end the war. I

3660
03:36:16,280 --> 03:36:18,719
mean it might seem like a middling thing to focus on,

3661
03:36:18,920 --> 03:36:21,399
but it's you know, Turtle's kind of like this master

3662
03:36:21,559 --> 03:36:24,239
of like effusicading actual issues, you know, like it wasn't

3663
03:36:25,079 --> 03:36:27,840
he He managed always answer questions with this kind of

3664
03:36:27,879 --> 03:36:32,319
grand flourish without actually saying anything. And if you want

3665
03:36:32,319 --> 03:36:36,840
to understand his political career, you gotta consider Churchill had

3666
03:36:36,879 --> 03:36:43,360
a bizarre background. His father was uh descended from the

3667
03:36:43,479 --> 03:36:46,479
Duke of marl Moroa, and his mother wasn't American, and

3668
03:36:46,799 --> 03:36:48,920
and and kind of a loose woman by all accounts,

3669
03:36:49,559 --> 03:36:52,200
like I believe, I believe when Churchill was there in

3670
03:36:52,200 --> 03:36:55,639
Turtle's brief time in the army, his his mother was

3671
03:36:55,760 --> 03:36:58,159
that you know then potioning fifty he was involved with

3672
03:36:58,239 --> 03:37:00,760
some kind of foppish young off or type was about

3673
03:37:00,840 --> 03:37:05,040
Churchill's age. I mean, that's there's something wrong there. I mean,

3674
03:37:05,559 --> 03:37:08,200
one doesn't need to be it'sond of moral prude or

3675
03:37:08,239 --> 03:37:11,200
something to recognize that there was something great dysfunctional yere,

3676
03:37:11,479 --> 03:37:14,200
particularly for a society woman in the UK of you know,

3677
03:37:14,280 --> 03:37:17,120
the turn of the century. I mean, that's this is strange.

3678
03:37:17,920 --> 03:37:21,000
You know, Churchill's father drang himself to death and apparently

3679
03:37:21,159 --> 03:37:28,639
demented for some time before then Churchill, uh Churchill in

3680
03:37:28,719 --> 03:37:35,520
May nineteen oh four, he uh, he abandoned what you know,

3681
03:37:35,680 --> 03:37:39,559
his his family's Tory heritage, declared that he hated the

3682
03:37:39,600 --> 03:37:44,319
Conservatives and that Balfour was you know, unworthy of of

3683
03:37:44,479 --> 03:37:49,159
high office, let alone, uh, you know, let alone the

3684
03:37:49,200 --> 03:37:51,719
office of the Prime Minister. He defected at the Liberal Party,

3685
03:37:52,719 --> 03:37:55,840
nominally on grounds that he supported free trade and that

3686
03:37:56,079 --> 03:38:00,719
you know, Belle four's protectionism was sabotaging the you know,

3687
03:38:00,799 --> 03:38:04,760
the the prosperity that that that was needed to compete,

3688
03:38:04,799 --> 03:38:07,879
not just with the United States, which that at that

3689
03:38:08,000 --> 03:38:10,040
time was not in particularly good terms with the UK.

3690
03:38:10,280 --> 03:38:12,399
I mean, that's whole another issue I don't want to

3691
03:38:12,639 --> 03:38:18,399
digress into. But also it's got to be it's also

3692
03:38:18,479 --> 03:38:20,799
got to be mentioned that the Liberals won a landslide

3693
03:38:20,799 --> 03:38:27,799
in nineteen oh six relatively and uh, Sir Henry Bannerman

3694
03:38:28,000 --> 03:38:33,440
made uh Churchill Undersecretary for the Colonies, and then later Uh,

3695
03:38:35,159 --> 03:38:38,200
it's some kind of like like minister. It's he sign's

3696
03:38:38,200 --> 03:38:42,159
not gonna ru in the Ministry of Trade. Okay. So basically,

3697
03:38:42,239 --> 03:38:45,719
I mean he Churchill saw an opportune moment and he

3698
03:38:45,840 --> 03:38:46,680
sees it. Okay.

3699
03:38:47,719 --> 03:38:49,920
Speaker 1: Uh he Uh.

3700
03:38:52,200 --> 03:38:55,040
Speaker 2: By this point the family did not its fortunes were waning.

3701
03:38:56,959 --> 03:38:59,239
What it kind of salvaged things at this point was

3702
03:38:59,280 --> 03:39:01,200
that a lot of the women in Churchill's family had

3703
03:39:01,239 --> 03:39:07,840
married into wealth, including uh Churchill's aunt Fanny, who's kind

3704
03:39:07,840 --> 03:39:10,600
of well known because there's this endless correspondence between Churchill

3705
03:39:10,600 --> 03:39:14,760
and Fanny, which is not particularly interesting, but historians make

3706
03:39:14,760 --> 03:39:16,799
a lot out of this. What is interesting is that

3707
03:39:16,920 --> 03:39:20,280
Fanny's sister, Uh, she married a guy who, in today's terms,

3708
03:39:20,319 --> 03:39:22,959
what would be a billionaire. I believe you know, he

3709
03:39:23,040 --> 03:39:24,680
was like on the order of like Carnegie in terms

3710
03:39:24,719 --> 03:39:26,920
of the wealth. Okay. He was like some some iron

3711
03:39:27,000 --> 03:39:31,280
mogul in the UK. And he was an arch enemy

3712
03:39:31,360 --> 03:39:34,239
of a He had been an arch enemy of a Chamberlain,

3713
03:39:35,000 --> 03:39:39,040
John Chamberlain, the first Chamberlain and his terriff regime, and uh,

3714
03:39:39,799 --> 03:39:44,719
so suddenly, uh aunt Fanny and uh and her sister

3715
03:39:45,959 --> 03:39:47,920
is throwing all this money at dear Winston, who now

3716
03:39:48,079 --> 03:39:51,079
is you know, a liberal member of parliament, you know,

3717
03:39:51,120 --> 03:39:53,799
I mean and this characterizes churchill entire life, Okay, kind

3718
03:39:53,840 --> 03:39:56,280
of like going where the money is, changing his strife

3719
03:39:56,280 --> 03:40:01,920
whenever he has to. And during this period two uh

3720
03:40:02,959 --> 03:40:08,600
churchill one stipulation he did make to John Chamberlain is

3721
03:40:08,760 --> 03:40:11,719
uh Churchill said, at all costs, We've got to avoid

3722
03:40:11,719 --> 03:40:14,639
another European war. We've got to find some way to

3723
03:40:14,680 --> 03:40:16,840
come to terms with Germany. We've got to find some

3724
03:40:16,959 --> 03:40:19,239
way to build, you know, a ramp erst defense against

3725
03:40:19,280 --> 03:40:21,920
the colored world and the communists. See this is fascinating,

3726
03:40:21,959 --> 03:40:25,799
isn't it? Because this is this isn't mister Churchill in

3727
03:40:25,879 --> 03:40:28,280
the aftermath of the Boer War. And he's positively talking

3728
03:40:28,440 --> 03:40:33,440
like uh, like Lothrop Stoddard or Madison Grant, you know,

3729
03:40:33,680 --> 03:40:36,079
I mean, uh, dare I say? He even sounds like

3730
03:40:36,159 --> 03:40:38,760
what people would call a fascist, you know, And I

3731
03:40:38,840 --> 03:40:41,680
mean this is his uh, this is his entire angle.

3732
03:40:41,760 --> 03:40:47,200
This is basically how he's making a living. Lo and behold, uh,

3733
03:40:49,319 --> 03:40:57,000
lo and behold. By nineteen eleven, Yeah, nineteen eleven, Churchill's uh,

3734
03:40:58,200 --> 03:41:03,120
he's a he's appointed First Lord of the Admiralty. This

3735
03:41:03,239 --> 03:41:09,479
had always been something of any ambition of his and uh,

3736
03:41:10,600 --> 03:41:14,840
he insinuated himself. He insinuated himself into that role. Mind you,

3737
03:41:14,920 --> 03:41:17,920
after almost a decade of you know, advocating peace on

3738
03:41:18,000 --> 03:41:22,319
the continent and and a conciliatory view towards the kaiser Reich,

3739
03:41:22,799 --> 03:41:25,799
you know, suddenly he suddenly Churchill changes the stripes completely

3740
03:41:26,559 --> 03:41:28,520
and says, you know, there we we've got a real

3741
03:41:28,600 --> 03:41:32,479
problem with naval rightiness. You know, we're not where the

3742
03:41:32,680 --> 03:41:35,239
uh the high Seas Fleet to Germany as you know,

3743
03:41:35,520 --> 03:41:38,319
a threat to the UK. You know, we we we

3744
03:41:38,479 --> 03:41:42,120
we we we can't count on on on on our own,

3745
03:41:42,200 --> 03:41:46,440
you know, technical supremacy any longer. And one thing to Churchill,

3746
03:41:46,639 --> 03:41:49,280
Churchill's big crew was uh, the conversion of coal to

3747
03:41:49,360 --> 03:41:52,840
oil firing UH ships. As it turned out in the

3748
03:41:52,920 --> 03:41:55,399
war that like a lot of these a lot of

3749
03:41:55,479 --> 03:41:58,559
these Dreadnought class ships like did not have added what urnaments.

3750
03:41:58,600 --> 03:42:01,440
But that's another kind of military eso tereriica. But it

3751
03:42:01,479 --> 03:42:05,639
did become an issue at UH at the Dardanells. Look

3752
03:42:05,680 --> 03:42:08,719
at that in a minute. But any event, so this

3753
03:42:08,879 --> 03:42:11,879
is about the third time in fifteen years Churchill has

3754
03:42:11,920 --> 03:42:14,239
done a one to eighty in terms of his purported

3755
03:42:14,280 --> 03:42:17,879
political sympathies, and and and and made and staked his

3756
03:42:18,000 --> 03:42:21,959
career fortunes on a position that that you know, only

3757
03:42:22,040 --> 03:42:24,520
a few years previously. It was he was a complete

3758
03:42:24,520 --> 03:42:26,879
opposite of what he purported to believe, you know, I mean,

3759
03:42:26,879 --> 03:42:28,840
in some ways, Churchill was kind of like the first lobbyist.

3760
03:42:29,479 --> 03:42:34,159
You know, there's uh, there's this famous uh, there's there's

3761
03:42:34,200 --> 03:42:37,879
this famous uh anecdote you know about uh, the first

3762
03:42:37,959 --> 03:42:42,360
Gulf War. And then Senator al Gore he's like waiting

3763
03:42:42,399 --> 03:42:44,440
in the atrium of the Senate of the Heart Senate

3764
03:42:44,440 --> 03:42:46,959
building or something, and he's like waiting. He's waiting for

3765
03:42:47,079 --> 03:42:48,799
like exit poll data to come in to decide if

3766
03:42:48,840 --> 03:42:51,159
he should, like, you know, vote for the war resolution

3767
03:42:51,280 --> 03:42:53,559
to go to war and whether Iraq or not. You know,

3768
03:42:53,600 --> 03:42:56,760
I mean that that that that's very much kind of

3769
03:42:56,840 --> 03:42:59,000
the I mean, I mean, al Gore was kind of

3770
03:42:59,040 --> 03:43:02,319
a he he was kind of easy to He was

3771
03:43:02,399 --> 03:43:04,680
kind of easy to lampoon because the name was a

3772
03:43:04,719 --> 03:43:07,920
fool and he uh had a tendency to do things

3773
03:43:07,959 --> 03:43:10,440
like wear more pancake makeup and a Portuguese hooker. But

3774
03:43:10,719 --> 03:43:14,280
it's the I uh that the point being that like

3775
03:43:14,440 --> 03:43:17,799
this Churchill was kind of like the first of this

3776
03:43:17,959 --> 03:43:20,920
type in the in the Anglo sphere, I mean, yeah,

3777
03:43:20,959 --> 03:43:24,280
there was always political corruption, Yeah, there were always people

3778
03:43:24,360 --> 03:43:26,680
there was There was always men who you know, were

3779
03:43:27,520 --> 03:43:30,559
we were morally compromised by by the prospect of money,

3780
03:43:30,559 --> 03:43:34,760
your promotion or or uh or all of the above.

3781
03:43:35,159 --> 03:43:38,360
But you know, this this guy like like being a

3782
03:43:38,440 --> 03:43:41,479
career politician who literally changes his stripes owing to the

3783
03:43:42,280 --> 03:43:45,079
you know, owing to the currents of public opinion or

3784
03:43:45,200 --> 03:43:48,440
uh or or or by literally following the lobbying money

3785
03:43:49,440 --> 03:43:52,360
of industry as true, Like like that really was not

3786
03:43:52,520 --> 03:43:54,959
something that was done. You know, Like guys like Churchill,

3787
03:43:55,200 --> 03:43:57,559
you know, kind of lesser nobility types, they kind of

3788
03:43:57,600 --> 03:44:00,399
insinuated themselves into a role and like that was role.

3789
03:44:00,959 --> 03:44:04,479
You know, So that that's kind of this kind of

3790
03:44:04,559 --> 03:44:11,879
gave people pause within elite circles in the UK, Churchill's

3791
03:44:11,920 --> 03:44:17,040
tenure as Lord of Admiralty frankly was disastrous. The uh

3792
03:44:17,879 --> 03:44:21,280
Churchill fancied himself despite having no meaningful military experience other

3793
03:44:21,319 --> 03:44:25,399
than about six months and uh in India, where he

3794
03:44:25,479 --> 03:44:30,719
didn't discern any real opportunity for battlefield heroism or anything exciting.

3795
03:44:30,799 --> 03:44:33,959
You know, he quickly became bored with that and resigned

3796
03:44:34,000 --> 03:44:38,440
his commission. Nonetheless, he fancied himself some great military mind

3797
03:44:38,559 --> 03:44:43,760
or commander. He uh there was a disaster when he

3798
03:44:43,799 --> 03:44:45,799
saw it to strike the German right flank and the

3799
03:44:45,840 --> 03:44:51,479
ant bridgehead, you know, there was the UK's assault forces

3800
03:44:51,520 --> 03:44:55,239
were totally under strength. This repeated in nineteen fifteen at

3801
03:44:55,239 --> 03:44:58,559
the Dardanels, which is well known to people. You know,

3802
03:44:58,639 --> 03:45:03,280
it's it was a very very dark incident for the Empire.

3803
03:45:03,680 --> 03:45:06,719
It was a slaughter. The aid was a pulverize ottomant

3804
03:45:06,760 --> 03:45:13,399
fortifications and capture captured Constantinople. Churchill gambled on on uh

3805
03:45:14,120 --> 03:45:17,360
on Royal Navy guns being able to outrange the Turks.

3806
03:45:18,120 --> 03:45:20,520
As I understand it, Then again, I'm not any kind

3807
03:45:20,520 --> 03:45:28,159
of military authority. This was another disaster. There weren't There

3808
03:45:28,280 --> 03:45:33,360
was not adequate imagery forces and being to uh facilitate

3809
03:45:33,440 --> 03:45:36,040
the follow up assault. Those that were available had been

3810
03:45:36,360 --> 03:45:39,280
rushed through training. When finally deployed in March nineteen fifteen,

3811
03:45:39,399 --> 03:45:45,399
it was a slaughter. This however, has become a would

3812
03:45:45,440 --> 03:45:48,520
become a characteristic at Churchill. This kind of like failing upward.

3813
03:45:50,319 --> 03:45:55,680
He was dismissed, yet six months later he was assigned

3814
03:45:55,719 --> 03:45:58,719
to France the Italian commander. He was recommission as lieutenant

3815
03:45:58,760 --> 03:46:04,079
colonel with the Royal Scotts Fusilaiers. Lloyd George basically intervened

3816
03:46:04,200 --> 03:46:06,559
to save him. George is, I'm gonna find this for

3817
03:46:06,639 --> 03:46:09,600
the man I owing probably the I don't know, the

3818
03:46:10,920 --> 03:46:14,120
you know whatever. It's hard to discern the kind of

3819
03:46:14,479 --> 03:46:19,600
sympathies of in habits of these in these kind of

3820
03:46:19,639 --> 03:46:23,200
aristocratic circles, particularly the last century. But I mean Lloyd

3821
03:46:23,239 --> 03:46:25,559
George has become a patron of his in a very

3822
03:46:25,600 --> 03:46:32,360
real way Churchill. George backed off though, around nineteen nineteen

3823
03:46:33,159 --> 03:46:37,760
because Churchill showed up quite literally now, mind you, Churchill

3824
03:46:37,799 --> 03:46:40,040
at this point was a Minister of Munitions and a

3825
03:46:40,079 --> 03:46:42,159
Secretary of State for War, which is kind of like

3826
03:46:42,239 --> 03:46:46,920
a meaningless sinecure. Yet Churchill shows up in France in

3827
03:46:47,040 --> 03:46:51,280
Paris in nineteen nineteen in full uniform, swaggering around drunk

3828
03:46:51,479 --> 03:46:54,120
like so I'm gonna cut dillo I. He declares that

3829
03:46:54,280 --> 03:46:57,680
he demands the intervention of all allies against the Bolsheviks,

3830
03:46:58,040 --> 03:47:01,399
and he will lead this expedition. And I mean, this

3831
03:47:01,520 --> 03:47:04,079
was an embarrassment and it was bizarre, you know. So

3832
03:47:04,159 --> 03:47:07,159
that basically ended Churchill's public life, I mean for the time.

3833
03:47:08,600 --> 03:47:13,040
Five years later and twenty four, Churchill suddenly re emerges.

3834
03:47:13,840 --> 03:47:17,639
He he's reinvented himself as like he's rejoined the Conservative Party,

3835
03:47:18,360 --> 03:47:22,879
you know. And I guess memories being short and Churchill

3836
03:47:22,959 --> 03:47:28,559
being a Churchill being able to sell illusory promises even

3837
03:47:28,639 --> 03:47:33,159
better than a Vegas showgirl can to a lonely businessman.

3838
03:47:34,000 --> 03:47:38,600
You know, he he got into lease on life. He

3839
03:47:38,680 --> 03:47:47,239
went from he went from he went from a From there,

3840
03:47:47,319 --> 03:47:54,799
he began demanding a general rear, a general naval build up,

3841
03:47:55,600 --> 03:47:58,079
presumably because he was trying to cultivate, you know, allies

3842
03:47:58,120 --> 03:48:01,079
and the Admiralty we'd alienated through the aster's performance as

3843
03:48:01,120 --> 03:48:07,360
Lord of the Admiralty. He started demanding, you know, Britain

3844
03:48:07,399 --> 03:48:13,760
Riconstudio's battleship fleet, you know, railing against the the uh

3845
03:48:14,200 --> 03:48:18,680
what uh what what became the uh what became the

3846
03:48:19,200 --> 03:48:27,280
Washington Naval Treaty. Then once again he reverses himself by

3847
03:48:28,239 --> 03:48:31,559
by nineteen twenty six, he's saying that we've got to

3848
03:48:31,600 --> 03:48:34,159
cut you know, defense expenditis of the bone, because I mean,

3849
03:48:34,200 --> 03:48:35,879
this was the way the currents were going once again.

3850
03:48:36,159 --> 03:48:40,319
And he he obviously did not he didn't find himself

3851
03:48:40,840 --> 03:48:45,520
welcome back into the into the Admiral le Fraternity. In

3852
03:48:46,639 --> 03:48:49,280
nineteen twenty eight he declared there's no chance that in

3853
03:48:49,440 --> 03:48:52,520
his lifetime that there would be any war with Japan.

3854
03:48:53,120 --> 03:48:54,760
He said in his he said, in his words, it's

3855
03:48:54,840 --> 03:48:57,319
unthinkable and did not foresee the slightest chance of it.

3856
03:48:58,079 --> 03:48:59,959
He said in nineteen twenty six and in nineteen twenty

3857
03:49:00,120 --> 03:49:03,559
eight that Britain should should adopt a ten year policy

3858
03:49:04,159 --> 03:49:07,159
that owing to the fact that war is unthinkable, with

3859
03:49:07,319 --> 03:49:12,319
any other years, that defense that cut down to the

3860
03:49:12,319 --> 03:49:19,000
bare minimum. It was around this time that uh Lord Esher,

3861
03:49:19,079 --> 03:49:21,840
who was an interesting figure and he died before the

3862
03:49:21,879 --> 03:49:24,879
Second World War, but he was a historian. He had

3863
03:49:24,959 --> 03:49:29,159
some arguably socialist symbo these but I think his discussion

3864
03:49:29,159 --> 03:49:31,799
of the person just of the time and his lifetime.

3865
03:49:31,840 --> 03:49:34,680
He wrote in enduring stuff, interesting stuff on Disraeli, he

3866
03:49:34,760 --> 03:49:38,280
wrote some really interesting stuff on Bellfore on Churchill, he

3867
03:49:38,360 --> 03:49:40,799
said Churchill is a flim flam Man. He said, the

3868
03:49:40,879 --> 03:49:44,479
guy's a showman. He's totally devoid of substance. Were as

3869
03:49:44,520 --> 03:49:48,200
he handles subjects and rhythmical language and quickly becomes enslaved

3870
03:49:48,280 --> 03:49:50,760
to his own phrase or by his own phrases, he

3871
03:49:50,879 --> 03:49:53,520
deceives himself into thinking he is taking broad views when

3872
03:49:53,559 --> 03:49:55,879
his mind is fixed on one comparatively small aspect of

3873
03:49:55,959 --> 03:49:58,479
the question. I'm wanna say one thing about this, and

3874
03:49:58,520 --> 03:50:00,200
I'll give it over to you, because I don't want

3875
03:50:00,200 --> 03:50:04,120
to suckle the air out of the room. I've heard

3876
03:50:04,159 --> 03:50:07,159
people say a lot as I'm sure you have two

3877
03:50:07,559 --> 03:50:11,600
as everybody has is exposed to kind of pop history

3878
03:50:11,600 --> 03:50:17,520
in this country. Oh you know, and there's this film,

3879
03:50:17,600 --> 03:50:21,239
this obnoxious film, Darkest Hour, with Gary Oldman, who otherwise

3880
03:50:21,280 --> 03:50:23,600
is like a dope actor. I was sad to see

3881
03:50:23,680 --> 03:50:26,399
him feature in this propaganda piece, but everybody must make

3882
03:50:26,399 --> 03:50:31,840
a living, including actors. But you know, the big praise

3883
03:50:32,120 --> 03:50:34,319
that people are, the big shine people put on mister

3884
03:50:34,440 --> 03:50:36,920
Churchill is like, well he was such a great order,

3885
03:50:37,520 --> 03:50:40,399
you know, being some showman order Like that's not really

3886
03:50:40,760 --> 03:50:45,799
a great thing to be, uh, A man like Calvin

3887
03:50:45,879 --> 03:50:48,600
Coolidge or like Abraham Lincoln. I know, people have mixed

3888
03:50:48,639 --> 03:50:52,200
feelings about Lincoln. I do too, But Lincoln actually was

3889
03:50:52,239 --> 03:50:55,120
a plain spoken individual. He was not some kind of showman.

3890
03:50:55,920 --> 03:50:58,280
The reason why the Gettysburg address stood out is because

3891
03:50:58,280 --> 03:51:01,520
the on grounds with the brevity is because Lincoln was

3892
03:51:01,559 --> 03:51:04,040
not He was not some hustler who went out there

3893
03:51:04,120 --> 03:51:08,559
and you know, kind of entertained ignorant people owing to

3894
03:51:08,639 --> 03:51:11,360
the uh, owing to the emergency. You know, one man

3895
03:51:11,440 --> 03:51:14,200
won vote. And the fact that you know, politicians by

3896
03:51:14,200 --> 03:51:18,000
the late nineteenth century literally become salesmen like Churchill, uh

3897
03:51:19,479 --> 03:51:22,680
he he the fact that he treated question time in

3898
03:51:22,760 --> 03:51:25,360
Parliament as some sort of as the Winston Churchill show. Like,

3899
03:51:25,360 --> 03:51:27,920
I don't really see what that's admirable, you know it?

3900
03:51:28,120 --> 03:51:31,120
Uh That's why I see parallels wing Bill Clinton and

3901
03:51:31,479 --> 03:51:34,040
Winston Churchill. Like you're not You're not some You're not

3902
03:51:34,120 --> 03:51:36,319
some great man or some man of the people. If

3903
03:51:36,440 --> 03:51:39,479
if your whole angle is you believe in nothing, you know,

3904
03:51:39,760 --> 03:51:41,840
you have the soul of the pig, you have absolutely

3905
03:51:41,879 --> 03:51:44,719
no principles. But hey, you like you really really really

3906
03:51:44,879 --> 03:51:47,760
entertain people with like Q was about eighty five, I mean, like,

3907
03:51:47,840 --> 03:51:50,239
why why is that admirable? You know? I mean like

3908
03:51:50,399 --> 03:51:53,200
and that's basically what Churchill had going for him. And

3909
03:51:53,280 --> 03:51:56,840
if you listen to I'm always making a point that, uh,

3910
03:51:57,879 --> 03:52:02,079
you know, I like we talked last session or last discussion,

3911
03:52:02,799 --> 03:52:04,440
I was making the point that whatever we can say

3912
03:52:04,440 --> 03:52:07,440
about Roosevelt, and I think Roosevelt in some ways was

3913
03:52:07,440 --> 03:52:12,159
a profoundly evil man, Roselt was a was a brilliant guy.

3914
03:52:12,360 --> 03:52:14,319
I mean it was a he was a ruthless machiavellian.

3915
03:52:14,360 --> 03:52:16,559
But if he wasn't at roosevelt speeches, I mean, yeah,

3916
03:52:16,680 --> 03:52:18,719
the guy's lying his ass off. But you can tell

3917
03:52:18,760 --> 03:52:23,000
that there's like a a complicated intellect there. Like Churchill,

3918
03:52:23,079 --> 03:52:27,680
It's like it's it's it's ridiculous, you know, I mean

3919
03:52:27,719 --> 03:52:30,559
you can really Like David Irving made the point that Churchill,

3920
03:52:30,559 --> 03:52:33,159
when he was early twenty literally played with toy soldiers,

3921
03:52:33,719 --> 03:52:38,200
you know, and he he uh, Lloyd George was disgusted

3922
03:52:38,280 --> 03:52:41,360
because I'm the during the Battle of Epra, church was

3923
03:52:41,399 --> 03:52:45,280
like running around like like literally a bubiliate that you know,

3924
03:52:45,440 --> 03:52:47,159
he was he was getting to play war, you know,

3925
03:52:47,319 --> 03:52:50,559
and everybody in the everybody else in the chain of commands,

3926
03:52:50,600 --> 03:52:53,239
civilian military, was beside themselves and here was this fat man,

3927
03:52:53,280 --> 03:52:55,559
who's you know, acting like a twelve year old playing

3928
03:52:55,600 --> 03:52:57,879
with his g I Joe's I mean, it's there's something

3929
03:52:58,000 --> 03:53:02,319
grotesque about that. But yeah, I uh, I didn't mean

3930
03:53:02,399 --> 03:53:05,040
to uh, I didn't mean a monopolized a discussion.

3931
03:53:05,840 --> 03:53:08,639
Speaker 1: No, So you pretty much brought us up to nineteen

3932
03:53:08,719 --> 03:53:12,920
thirty two, nineteen thirty three, when two elections happened that

3933
03:53:14,360 --> 03:53:17,319
changed the course of the world. So how is what's

3934
03:53:17,399 --> 03:53:18,600
Churchill doing at this time?

3935
03:53:20,920 --> 03:53:28,040
Speaker 2: Essentially Churchill made his uh he uh, he staged his

3936
03:53:28,120 --> 03:53:35,520
final comeback by uh by fabricating a lot of forces

3937
03:53:35,559 --> 03:53:39,200
and being numbers about the Vermont and particularly the loof

3938
03:53:39,200 --> 03:53:45,159
off of Churchill realized there wasn't a lot of Churchill

3939
03:53:45,200 --> 03:53:48,639
realized very quickly, I mean as everybody did that, you know,

3940
03:53:49,760 --> 03:53:52,719
alarmism like admiralty at least in the sense that he've

3941
03:53:52,719 --> 03:53:55,719
been able to finangle his way into rule in a

3942
03:53:56,799 --> 03:53:59,280
positions of real power in the in the First War

3943
03:53:59,479 --> 03:54:01,479
like that that was no longer going to carry the day.

3944
03:54:04,239 --> 03:54:07,719
What he was uh, he was he was busily he

3945
03:54:07,879 --> 03:54:15,239
was he was he was busily agitating for ah by flating,

3946
03:54:15,280 --> 03:54:19,760
you know, inflating the purported threat posed by Germany to

3947
03:54:20,000 --> 03:54:25,239
uh to uh to t u K the UK supremacy

3948
03:54:26,479 --> 03:54:28,840
on the con and dan in the in the colonies,

3949
03:54:30,079 --> 03:54:33,719
and uh the way he was doing that, Oh uh

3950
03:54:35,120 --> 03:54:38,040
what what you gotta understand first, you gotta understand who

3951
03:54:38,159 --> 03:54:41,360
is funding Churchill. And we're gonna get more into that

3952
03:54:41,479 --> 03:54:46,600
next session. But the Churchill between the time that he

3953
03:54:46,840 --> 03:54:50,280
uh he left uh or was forced out of his

3954
03:54:50,360 --> 03:54:53,639
post the Admiralty and he stayed his comeback, as I

3955
03:54:53,680 --> 03:54:56,680
can certain member of parliament, Jorge had become quite wealthy

3956
03:54:56,799 --> 03:55:00,799
as a as a historical author. He published his own memoirs,

3957
03:55:00,840 --> 03:55:03,680
which I mean, we're incredibly self serving. He posed the

3958
03:55:03,719 --> 03:55:07,239
issue of the British empire, this multi valume uh, this

3959
03:55:07,440 --> 03:55:14,159
multi volume uh kind of magnum opus and for the

3960
03:55:14,200 --> 03:55:20,360
time that made him quite wealthy. He uh he became

3961
03:55:20,399 --> 03:55:29,120
a firebrand against UH Germany owing to UH the convergence

3962
03:55:29,200 --> 03:55:33,520
of a what we consider a political action committee in

3963
03:55:33,719 --> 03:55:37,319
uh today's terms called UH that called that quite literally

3964
03:55:37,360 --> 03:55:41,479
called itself the focus group. It was a it was

3965
03:55:41,520 --> 03:55:44,040
a combination, uh, I mean the people in its ranks.

3966
03:55:44,079 --> 03:55:47,239
I mean it was a diverse coalition. I mean not

3967
03:55:48,360 --> 03:55:51,920
not I mean by today's in today's political cultures. We'd

3968
03:55:51,920 --> 03:55:53,520
take this for granted, but at that point it was

3969
03:55:53,600 --> 03:55:55,959
somewhat novel. You know. You had like out and out

3970
03:55:56,079 --> 03:56:02,920
Zionus types who uh you know obviously had ethno sectarian

3971
03:56:02,959 --> 03:56:09,639
reasons for hostility to the German Reich. Uh. You had

3972
03:56:09,799 --> 03:56:13,920
uh industrialists who uh owing to the Washington Naval Treaty

3973
03:56:14,040 --> 03:56:17,920
and Britain's defense expenditure is being cut down to the

3974
03:56:18,280 --> 03:56:21,639
like literally to the bone, had you know, found themselves

3975
03:56:22,440 --> 03:56:24,440
really kind of put out a business. I mean even

3976
03:56:24,520 --> 03:56:28,879
before the one nine crash, I mean hit the UK

3977
03:56:29,120 --> 03:56:34,319
very hard, arguably as hard as the United States. But

3978
03:56:35,000 --> 03:56:40,000
even even notwithstanding that, British heavy industry was was having

3979
03:56:40,520 --> 03:56:42,879
they were looking at real problems in terms of solvating

3980
03:56:42,879 --> 03:56:48,719
their fortunes. And uh, the uh the the end uh

3981
03:56:49,840 --> 03:56:53,559
the the end the end of defense subsidies, particularly naval

3982
03:56:53,600 --> 03:56:56,319
subsidies really really really hurt them. You know. So you

3983
03:56:56,399 --> 03:57:00,639
had typical kind of military industrial interests. You had, uh

3984
03:57:01,479 --> 03:57:05,680
he had people like Vantasaratudah not him himself, with people

3985
03:57:05,840 --> 03:57:08,520
like him who just had a kind of hostility of

3986
03:57:08,559 --> 03:57:11,120
the German right. I mean dating back to I mean

3987
03:57:11,159 --> 03:57:13,159
you raised I don't want to go too far a field.

3988
03:57:13,280 --> 03:57:16,200
But I mean you raised, uh in our last discussion,

3989
03:57:16,280 --> 03:57:19,520
you know, why why did the UK develop this kind

3990
03:57:19,559 --> 03:57:23,639
of enmity towards Germany. That's a complicated issue when I

3991
03:57:24,319 --> 03:57:25,879
we do need to delve into that a little bit

3992
03:57:25,920 --> 03:57:29,799
just for context here, you know, like we've like we

3993
03:57:29,879 --> 03:57:32,920
talked about a moment ago. You know, John Chamberlain, the

3994
03:57:32,959 --> 03:57:35,719
first Chamberlain, I think him as a good Chamberlain. Although uh,

3995
03:57:36,200 --> 03:57:38,559
although Nevill Chamberlain, I think it's kind of unduly maligned.

3996
03:57:39,239 --> 03:57:42,760
He was not a good executive. But the fact that

3997
03:57:42,840 --> 03:57:46,079
he's a he's got to burn an effigy, I think

3998
03:57:46,200 --> 03:57:51,319
is misguided. But John Chamberlain, he quite literally said, uh,

3999
03:57:52,520 --> 03:57:56,120
you know, in strategic terms, the most sensible alliance would

4000
03:57:56,120 --> 03:58:01,479
be that between you know, London, Washington and then against

4001
03:58:01,559 --> 03:58:05,440
Moscow and in the east, you know, the Anglo Japanese alliance.

4002
03:58:05,559 --> 03:58:10,200
Will you know, further hedge against both China and Russia,

4003
03:58:10,959 --> 03:58:12,959
which makes perfect sense. And this is what years are

4004
03:58:13,040 --> 03:58:19,120
fascinating young kaiser Villehelm. You know, when he'd only ascended

4005
03:58:19,200 --> 03:58:25,360
to the to the throne the fears previously he said

4006
03:58:25,399 --> 03:58:27,879
that Chamberlain's vision would never come to fruition because the

4007
03:58:28,000 --> 03:58:29,879
UK and France would never be able to put their

4008
03:58:29,920 --> 03:58:36,239
differences aside and behold like within a few years.

4009
03:58:37,680 --> 03:58:37,840
Speaker 1: You know.

4010
03:58:38,000 --> 03:58:41,559
Speaker 2: The uh, the the entent is what h is what

4011
03:58:41,639 --> 03:58:47,120
truly poisoned uh Anglo German relations. But I think what

4012
03:58:47,319 --> 03:58:50,200
if there was one single approximate cause. I mean people say,

4013
03:58:50,799 --> 03:58:55,719
people like to drop everything from you know, King George

4014
03:58:55,760 --> 03:58:59,719
and uh and ville Elm we're both kind of insufferable personalities.

4015
03:59:00,600 --> 03:59:03,319
And uh, Wilhelm never felt like the Germans are being

4016
03:59:03,399 --> 03:59:08,000
respected by the UK, and that's probably true. And there's

4017
03:59:08,000 --> 03:59:09,319
a man, there's a there's a man a key in

4018
03:59:09,360 --> 03:59:11,879
aspect to this. So like George and Wilhelm like look

4019
03:59:11,959 --> 03:59:15,079
literally like doppelgangers. It's bizarre, you know. I mean they

4020
03:59:15,120 --> 03:59:18,120
were related, but they literally looked like twin brothers, you know.

4021
03:59:18,239 --> 03:59:24,520
And it uh the Boer War, Uh. I think the war,

4022
03:59:24,639 --> 03:59:30,200
more than any single catalyst, was what uh what set

4023
03:59:30,239 --> 03:59:35,600
this enmity in motion. The uh, the German Reich really

4024
03:59:35,799 --> 03:59:39,200
strongly identified with the Bors and vice versa. I mean,

4025
03:59:39,440 --> 03:59:41,399
owing not just the fact that outside in the maybe

4026
03:59:41,440 --> 03:59:45,159
a Germany didn't really have holdings in Africa that they

4027
03:59:45,200 --> 03:59:47,200
felt the great power should and the Boers were kind

4028
03:59:47,239 --> 03:59:53,159
of their clients. But in cultural terms, there's there's commonality

4029
03:59:53,239 --> 03:59:58,440
between the basically Dutch Boers and the Germans. Added that

4030
03:59:58,760 --> 04:00:03,840
like the very, very kind of strong communitarian racial identity

4031
04:00:03,879 --> 04:00:07,479
that developed, going in part to the fact that the

4032
04:00:07,520 --> 04:00:09,680
Boers were quite literally believed by the whole continent of

4033
04:00:10,280 --> 04:00:14,600
racial others. But this kind of a this this kind

4034
04:00:14,639 --> 04:00:18,559
of warrior calvinist faith that sustained them. And I've got

4035
04:00:18,600 --> 04:00:20,920
this whole idea that there's a pieous dimension and national

4036
04:00:21,000 --> 04:00:25,000
socialism that's unique to the German character and Germanic people generally.

4037
04:00:25,840 --> 04:00:32,520
But all that esoterica aside. The British began using the

4038
04:00:32,600 --> 04:00:35,600
Boar War as an excuse to board and search and

4039
04:00:35,879 --> 04:00:40,920
in many cases detain German ships under auspices of well,

4040
04:00:41,200 --> 04:00:43,879
you know, we and any ships from the continent, you know,

4041
04:00:44,200 --> 04:00:45,799
traveling to the cape, you know, we've got to make

4042
04:00:45,840 --> 04:00:49,760
sure that they're not they're not furnishing weapons and munitions

4043
04:00:49,799 --> 04:00:53,399
and supplies to the Boers. But somehow it's always German

4044
04:00:53,479 --> 04:00:56,280
ships that are being you know, corralled in this way.

4045
04:00:56,840 --> 04:01:01,000
And the Germans weren't stupid, and Willhelm was not without fault.

4046
04:01:01,120 --> 04:01:05,360
I mean, he the High seas fleet, in my opinion,

4047
04:01:06,079 --> 04:01:11,440
and Holwig later the chance of the German Empire, who

4048
04:01:11,479 --> 04:01:13,959
I think was probably about the only good guy on

4049
04:01:14,079 --> 04:01:17,520
the evil World War One, But that's another issue. And

4050
04:01:17,600 --> 04:01:21,319
it howag always maintained that the Bluewater Navy, what the

4051
04:01:21,360 --> 04:01:24,319
Germans called their high siased fleet, it was designing to

4052
04:01:24,440 --> 04:01:30,040
two things. Germany could be strangled and it was by

4053
04:01:30,120 --> 04:01:32,120
a starvation blockade, and I want to get into that

4054
04:01:32,159 --> 04:01:36,719
in a minute in our discussion to mister Churchill. But

4055
04:01:36,879 --> 04:01:42,639
also Germany in nineteen four, in nineteen fourteen and nineteen

4056
04:01:42,680 --> 04:01:45,399
twenty four, in nineteen forty four and nineteen eighty four

4057
04:01:45,920 --> 04:01:52,000
always viewed Russia as its primary adversary. And if if

4058
04:01:52,040 --> 04:01:55,879
in the nineteen teens you're Willhelm the second you're looking

4059
04:01:55,959 --> 04:01:58,479
eastward and you're saying, I've got to be able to

4060
04:01:58,559 --> 04:02:01,520
dominate you know, I've got to be able to dominate

4061
04:02:01,559 --> 04:02:06,479
the Baltic and UH and essentially, you know, cut the

4062
04:02:06,559 --> 04:02:08,319
Russian fleet off at the knees. I'm gonna win a

4063
04:02:08,399 --> 04:02:12,879
general war against Russia. And that makes sense. I don't

4064
04:02:12,920 --> 04:02:17,399
think there's I don't think there's a realistic I don't

4065
04:02:17,399 --> 04:02:21,799
think there's a strategic I don't think a strategic challenge

4066
04:02:21,840 --> 04:02:25,520
to the UK by the German Empire in ninety fourteen

4067
04:02:26,000 --> 04:02:29,520
like made really any sense in general terms. I just don't.

4068
04:02:29,840 --> 04:02:35,920
But in the UK there was a there there there

4069
04:02:36,680 --> 04:02:39,000
the strawberry Gamel's bag was the Boer War. And one

4070
04:02:39,000 --> 04:02:42,200
of the thinks villa Helm did Paul Krueger the kind

4071
04:02:42,200 --> 04:02:48,559
of great boor uh revolutionary as he was running raids,

4072
04:02:49,399 --> 04:02:52,559
you know, against the British in the in the trans

4073
04:02:52,680 --> 04:02:56,479
ball and the Orange Free State or whatever. Uh, Kaiser

4074
04:02:56,559 --> 04:02:59,399
villa Up sent him, sent him a telegram congratulating him.

4075
04:03:00,239 --> 04:03:04,520
And this was not this is not good form and

4076
04:03:05,479 --> 04:03:09,440
like gooviy that sounds now, but uh, in those days, Uh,

4077
04:03:10,639 --> 04:03:14,559
these guys are diplomatic slaps in the face were viewed

4078
04:03:14,559 --> 04:03:17,079
almost like acts of war. I mean, like these days

4079
04:03:17,120 --> 04:03:20,920
were like diplomatic language become meaningless, you know, unless you're

4080
04:03:21,479 --> 04:03:25,040
unless you're quite literally detonating ordin answer, you're carrying on

4081
04:03:25,159 --> 04:03:28,159
terrorist acts or opening fire on people. Like nobody cares

4082
04:03:28,200 --> 04:03:31,920
what you say. Uh, I mean the Cold War gonna

4083
04:03:32,000 --> 04:03:35,319
change that, but it but you better believe if you

4084
04:03:35,399 --> 04:03:39,239
were if you were some radical boar farmer like mister Krueger,

4085
04:03:40,040 --> 04:03:42,399
you know, and you were you were playing viet Cong

4086
04:03:42,600 --> 04:03:47,000
with UH, with the British Empire, and uh, a European

4087
04:03:47,079 --> 04:03:50,879
United State was like sending you formal praise for doing that.

4088
04:03:51,559 --> 04:03:54,799
Like this was viewed in the gravest terms. It really was.

4089
04:03:55,280 --> 04:03:59,319
And uh nobody said that villain ham was uh an

4090
04:03:59,360 --> 04:04:03,159
intelligent man or that he made wise decisions. And it's like,

4091
04:04:03,200 --> 04:04:04,680
I'm always playing bad at the point. There is the

4092
04:04:04,760 --> 04:04:07,600
reason why aof Hitler denied him a state funeral when

4093
04:04:07,639 --> 04:04:12,840
the old man died, you know, when ninety forty, I

4094
04:04:12,920 --> 04:04:16,200
think it he died in exile in Hollan and then

4095
04:04:18,239 --> 04:04:20,399
but there's a reason, you know, I mean, and it uh,

4096
04:04:21,879 --> 04:04:24,200
it was it was big that it was big that

4097
04:04:24,319 --> 04:04:26,680
hitler'mally considering Hiller fought in the Great War. I mean

4098
04:04:27,360 --> 04:04:30,280
it was a it's telling that he he wouldn't even

4099
04:04:30,280 --> 04:04:32,159
know the guy he buried with like state honors. I mean,

4100
04:04:32,239 --> 04:04:37,520
that's you know, and it's not accidental. And uh, it's

4101
04:04:37,559 --> 04:04:39,000
not just owing to the fact that he grows he

4102
04:04:39,079 --> 04:04:41,319
mismanaged the war, you know, I mean it, Uh, if

4103
04:04:41,360 --> 04:04:43,719
you're that kind of despised by by your own people.

4104
04:04:45,399 --> 04:04:49,799
The problem generally is you. But in any event, I

4105
04:04:49,920 --> 04:04:57,040
raised the h Churchill's kind of final act. I mean

4106
04:04:57,079 --> 04:04:59,440
this was in his role as uh, this was in

4107
04:04:59,520 --> 04:05:02,799
his role as war minister that I was kind of

4108
04:05:02,840 --> 04:05:10,239
extended beyond all reasonable parameters. In his post as Lord

4109
04:05:10,319 --> 04:05:13,000
of Ameraldy, Churchill was the one who imposed the Starvation

4110
04:05:13,159 --> 04:05:17,680
Blackade on Germany. And literally was a starvation blackcade nineteen sixteen.

4111
04:05:17,719 --> 04:05:19,920
There's food riots all over it's the German Empire because

4112
04:05:19,959 --> 04:05:25,000
people were starving, okay, particularly elderly kids. You know, it

4113
04:05:25,120 --> 04:05:27,239
was a disaster. All told, about three quarters of a

4114
04:05:27,280 --> 04:05:32,520
million people died between nineteen fifteen and nineteen nineteen. And Churchill,

4115
04:05:32,600 --> 04:05:36,920
in his post a Secretary of War, Secretary of State

4116
04:05:36,959 --> 04:05:43,040
for War, rather he he extended, he demanded, and he

4117
04:05:43,120 --> 04:05:48,319
got his way. The Blackcad was extended through nineteen nineteen,

4118
04:05:50,159 --> 04:05:52,479
resolving I believe in on eight three thousand dead for

4119
04:05:52,600 --> 04:05:57,239
that year. And why was this done. This was done

4120
04:05:57,280 --> 04:06:00,799
so that Germany accept the war war guilt clause of

4121
04:06:01,559 --> 04:06:04,399
the Versailles Treaty. And that's really what truly discussed the

4122
04:06:04,399 --> 04:06:08,479
American delegation. It demanded the German accept full guilt for

4123
04:06:08,559 --> 04:06:12,319
the war, you know, to film to pay thirty two

4124
04:06:12,399 --> 04:06:16,799
billion in gold bollyon for them to pay. Churchill demanded

4125
04:06:16,840 --> 04:06:18,879
that it be included that they paid that Germany pay

4126
04:06:18,920 --> 04:06:22,280
the pensions of British soldiers who fought on the Western Front.

4127
04:06:22,680 --> 04:06:25,680
I mean, this was totally insane, and it demanded the

4128
04:06:25,760 --> 04:06:31,319
Kaiser be arrested, prosecuted as a war criminal. And of

4129
04:06:31,399 --> 04:06:32,959
course the German said they're not going to sign that.

4130
04:06:33,760 --> 04:06:38,559
So Churchill demanded and got his way, that the starvation

4131
04:06:38,680 --> 04:06:44,520
blockade be sustained until they capitulated. And of course the

4132
04:06:44,639 --> 04:06:51,159
US said it to its eternal credit, refused the refuse

4133
04:06:51,200 --> 04:06:54,440
to endorse the Versaie treaty. It wasn't really worth the

4134
04:06:54,479 --> 04:06:56,680
paper was written on when America bowed out of it

4135
04:06:57,079 --> 04:07:02,319
and refused to ratify it or force it. And uh,

4136
04:07:03,399 --> 04:07:07,360
you know that entire you know, Germany's unwillingness to comply,

4137
04:07:08,079 --> 04:07:13,120
and and and and kind of Anglo Anglo French impotence

4138
04:07:13,120 --> 04:07:16,639
therein like pasturing about the ability to actually deliver on

4139
04:07:16,799 --> 04:07:19,959
threat by the Western Allies had a lot to do

4140
04:07:20,079 --> 04:07:23,760
with the about still is nineteen thirty nine, and we

4141
04:07:23,840 --> 04:07:28,680
will get to that, but I forgive the out of

4142
04:07:28,760 --> 04:07:34,280
sequence some discussion of uh, the starvation blockade. I just

4143
04:07:35,079 --> 04:07:37,680
it's a rare instance of something that's truly unconstable. And

4144
04:07:37,799 --> 04:07:41,440
like Herbert Hoover said, I I recommend the other day

4145
04:07:41,559 --> 04:07:44,280
on my Twitter, my gab timeline this biography of Herbert Hoover,

4146
04:07:44,360 --> 04:07:47,159
and I think it is really dope. And Hoover is

4147
04:07:47,159 --> 04:07:50,239
a guy. He was he was a very decent guy,

4148
04:07:50,399 --> 04:07:52,639
and he was actually a pretty good president. And uh

4149
04:07:53,239 --> 04:07:57,959
he's uh he's burned fgy and and and held responsible

4150
04:07:58,040 --> 04:08:02,239
for the great to pro which is grossing misguided. But

4151
04:08:02,559 --> 04:08:04,959
Hoover said, we don't starve. He said, in America, we

4152
04:08:05,000 --> 04:08:06,680
don't starve for many kids. And we don't kick a

4153
04:08:06,760 --> 04:08:10,000
man when he's down after we've defeated him. And uh,

4154
04:08:11,559 --> 04:08:14,360
and he's right, Okay, I mean there's something you're not.

4155
04:08:14,879 --> 04:08:17,399
You're you're not you're not being some you're not being

4156
04:08:17,440 --> 04:08:20,319
some liberal pussy or you're not being some you know

4157
04:08:20,479 --> 04:08:24,040
some uh some social justice humanist or something to say

4158
04:08:24,120 --> 04:08:27,920
that you know, you don't you don't impose draconian, draconian peace,

4159
04:08:28,600 --> 04:08:31,360
not just on another white Christian country, but even uh,

4160
04:08:32,280 --> 04:08:37,680
you know, even on even even even up an alien

4161
04:08:37,760 --> 04:08:41,440
power that's outside the culture completely So long as you're

4162
04:08:41,440 --> 04:08:45,239
not engaged in an existential war against them for for survival.

4163
04:08:45,399 --> 04:08:48,159
That's just you don't treat people that way in defeat.

4164
04:08:48,680 --> 04:08:52,639
There's no honor in it. And uh, honor matters, and

4165
04:08:52,920 --> 04:08:56,239
ethics matter, and the killing a non combedness matters too,

4166
04:08:56,399 --> 04:08:59,399
And we're gonna take that up in a more complete

4167
04:08:59,840 --> 04:09:03,120
uh uh capacity uh when we deal with the Nuremberg

4168
04:09:05,319 --> 04:09:09,399
addendum to our discussion. But what I want to well,

4169
04:09:09,399 --> 04:09:10,719
I want to give back to you in a moment,

4170
04:09:10,840 --> 04:09:14,280
but I what I want to do uh in our

4171
04:09:14,360 --> 04:09:18,399
next uh discussion, which uh we are recording any time

4172
04:09:18,440 --> 04:09:21,959
you said Saturday, I want to get into uh. I

4173
04:09:22,040 --> 04:09:24,719
want to get into the focus as we talked about,

4174
04:09:24,840 --> 04:09:27,600
which was really the first, in my opinion, modern uh

4175
04:09:28,120 --> 04:09:31,559
political action committee. It really was. That's not some that's

4176
04:09:31,639 --> 04:09:37,319
not some uh hokey metaphorm invoking or some imperfect analogy.

4177
04:09:38,040 --> 04:09:40,600
You you really did not. You did not have dedicated

4178
04:09:40,639 --> 04:09:45,479
committees to raise money, you know, to advance discrete policy initiatives,

4179
04:09:45,520 --> 04:09:48,040
to elect like an individual man and promote that man

4180
04:09:48,239 --> 04:09:51,159
is like the face of these policies. Like you had lobbyists,

4181
04:09:51,799 --> 04:09:54,319
you know, all in sundry and you had for you know,

4182
04:09:54,360 --> 04:09:56,600
a couple of centuries by that point, you know, you

4183
04:09:56,719 --> 04:10:00,000
had men who who owed their political career to basically

4184
04:10:00,079 --> 04:10:03,120
big representatives of you know, either you know, industry or

4185
04:10:03,319 --> 04:10:06,639
agriculture or you know, military interests, so so that they

4186
04:10:06,639 --> 04:10:09,040
could be said to exist in the early modern era.

4187
04:10:09,840 --> 04:10:12,600
But Churchill is really, he really was the first man

4188
04:10:12,719 --> 04:10:16,440
where you got a bunch of wealthy people and work

4189
04:10:16,520 --> 04:10:19,920
and organizations that represented wealthy people saying, you know, here

4190
04:10:20,200 --> 04:10:23,440
here are policy demands. You know, we're gonna cooperate to

4191
04:10:23,559 --> 04:10:26,959
realize these demands, and we're gonna select this man, you know,

4192
04:10:27,159 --> 04:10:29,239
and we're gonna see to it that he has installed

4193
04:10:29,280 --> 04:10:31,959
in office, you know, to implement these demands as policy.

4194
04:10:32,760 --> 04:10:35,879
I've researched, it's thoroughly and Churchill is he is like

4195
04:10:36,840 --> 04:10:40,520
he is, he is the original example of this. I'm

4196
04:10:40,520 --> 04:10:42,239
sure there's gonna be people in the comments who were like,

4197
04:10:42,319 --> 04:10:44,559
oh no, there was you know, Lord so and so

4198
04:10:44,760 --> 04:10:47,879
from eighteen fifty or whatever. It's not the same thing, okay,

4199
04:10:48,520 --> 04:10:52,799
And especially considering there's a literally a modern national media

4200
04:10:52,840 --> 04:10:55,479
apparatus buying Churchill, you know, if you want in a

4201
04:10:55,559 --> 04:10:59,399
central bank, yeah, yeah, and we're gonna deep dive into

4202
04:10:59,479 --> 04:11:01,120
that now. I don't want to know, because we've been

4203
04:11:01,159 --> 04:11:03,040
going for almost an hour, and frankly I want to

4204
04:11:03,399 --> 04:11:05,239
kind of organize my thoughts a little better for the

4205
04:11:05,280 --> 04:11:05,799
second part.

4206
04:11:05,920 --> 04:11:08,799
Speaker 1: But what do you want Let me let me ask

4207
04:11:08,840 --> 04:11:09,639
an opinion question.

4208
04:11:10,079 --> 04:11:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4209
04:11:10,319 --> 04:11:14,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, did they get behind him because they knew that

4210
04:11:14,799 --> 04:11:17,159
he was not the smartest man in the world, and

4211
04:11:17,280 --> 04:11:19,079
he just seemed like he could be a good puppet.

4212
04:11:21,079 --> 04:11:24,280
Speaker 2: I think there's a few things here. Okay, Churchill was

4213
04:11:24,319 --> 04:11:26,479
a weird guy. I mean, he was weird in terms

4214
04:11:26,479 --> 04:11:30,719
of personal habits and stuff. But he also, like I said,

4215
04:11:31,600 --> 04:11:34,639
Churchill had this kind of promiscuous, glamorous mom who was

4216
04:11:34,639 --> 04:11:37,920
an American. He had this dead who literally drank himself

4217
04:11:37,959 --> 04:11:43,120
to death and was and was crazy. Churchill like straddled America.

4218
04:11:43,200 --> 04:11:47,120
In the UK, he hung around a bunch of neuvau

4219
04:11:47,200 --> 04:11:50,000
reef type guys and like rich Jewish guys. But he

4220
04:11:50,040 --> 04:11:52,479
also he also was a He also was a lesser noble.

4221
04:11:52,520 --> 04:11:54,840
He literally was descended from, you know, the Lord of Marlborough,

4222
04:11:55,600 --> 04:11:58,760
so like he knew how to move in aristocratic circles too.

4223
04:11:59,440 --> 04:12:01,520
Like you take for granted these days that there's this

4224
04:12:01,639 --> 04:12:04,120
kind of citizen of the world types, you know, who

4225
04:12:04,159 --> 04:12:07,040
are insinuated into high places, and a lot of them

4226
04:12:07,040 --> 04:12:09,479
are mediocrities, as I think Churchill was. But that's not

4227
04:12:09,600 --> 04:12:12,319
the point. Like the point is that guys like that

4228
04:12:12,600 --> 04:12:15,200
weren't real common in the United Kingdom of you know,

4229
04:12:15,680 --> 04:12:21,920
nineteen thirty. So Churchill was, he had rare characteristics in

4230
04:12:22,000 --> 04:12:26,520
that way. But it's also it's also like it's it's

4231
04:12:26,840 --> 04:12:29,719
also like we discussed during the hour, like church was

4232
04:12:29,760 --> 04:12:33,000
a guy who literally would defect at the drop of

4233
04:12:33,040 --> 04:12:36,319
a nine. You know, he was for sale. And that's

4234
04:12:36,319 --> 04:12:38,959
why compared to Bill Clinton, there's a lot of guys,

4235
04:12:39,399 --> 04:12:43,079
and myself included. I mean, I'm a Christian, I'm a

4236
04:12:43,120 --> 04:12:45,440
center like every other man and woman is, and I'm

4237
04:12:45,479 --> 04:12:47,399
not better any worse. You know, no man is any

4238
04:12:47,440 --> 04:12:50,200
better any worse in this regard. And all men can

4239
04:12:50,280 --> 04:12:54,280
be bought basically if they're in political life, that's why

4240
04:12:54,280 --> 04:12:57,239
they're there. But there's very few guys that were they

4241
04:12:57,319 --> 04:12:59,360
literally have no principles at all, and if you dangle

4242
04:12:59,440 --> 04:13:02,479
money in their face, still basically shill for whatever you want,

4243
04:13:02,760 --> 04:13:05,639
like whatever you want. You know, that's that is rare,

4244
04:13:06,319 --> 04:13:08,639
and uh, I think it's indicative of being some kind

4245
04:13:08,639 --> 04:13:13,000
of a psycho path. Frankly, I'm not just saying that. Like,

4246
04:13:13,079 --> 04:13:15,120
you can say what you want about Hitler. Hitler believed

4247
04:13:15,159 --> 04:13:17,319
in everything he was doing. You can say Roosevelt was

4248
04:13:17,319 --> 04:13:21,200
an evil guy. Roosevelt actually believed everything he said. I

4249
04:13:21,239 --> 04:13:24,520
don't think Church will believe in anything. Yeah, Like, I

4250
04:13:24,600 --> 04:13:27,959
really don't. And either that or it's and I'm not

4251
04:13:28,440 --> 04:13:31,120
I'm not just dropping a cheap shot owing to his alcoholism.

4252
04:13:31,760 --> 04:13:33,440
I mean owing to some of my own issues in

4253
04:13:33,520 --> 04:13:35,639
the past that have been recanted about. I'm the last

4254
04:13:35,680 --> 04:13:37,799
person who're cann like trash people for having like drug

4255
04:13:37,920 --> 04:13:41,600
or alcoholic problems. Okay, but if you're a lifelong drug

4256
04:13:41,639 --> 04:13:43,719
addict or alcoholic, it does like start to make you

4257
04:13:43,840 --> 04:13:47,159
go crazy. And I've considered the fact, and David Irving

4258
04:13:47,239 --> 04:13:49,639
dropped this in his two value mystery, like Church was

4259
04:13:49,719 --> 04:13:51,600
probably starting to lose his mind by the time he

4260
04:13:51,719 --> 04:13:53,479
was like our age, you know, like in his forties.

4261
04:13:54,159 --> 04:13:59,360
I mean, you can't. You can't. You can't be a

4262
04:13:59,440 --> 04:14:01,719
drunk for three years and have that not take its toll.

4263
04:14:02,319 --> 04:14:04,360
You know. I'm sure that that must have had something

4264
04:14:04,399 --> 04:14:06,799
to do with it. And again that's not some that's

4265
04:14:06,799 --> 04:14:09,399
not gonna cheap. You know that sounds some sort of

4266
04:14:09,559 --> 04:14:14,719
cheap slander on mister Churchill. It just doesn't. I mean,

4267
04:14:14,760 --> 04:14:18,799
I I know guys who I know, guys who portrayed

4268
04:14:18,840 --> 04:14:24,600
your own principles, you know, uh, for profit. I've never

4269
04:14:24,760 --> 04:14:27,040
met a guy who is like mister Clinton or like

4270
04:14:27,159 --> 04:14:30,000
Winiston Churchill, where it's you know, one day they're aviating

4271
04:14:30,079 --> 04:14:32,799
for this, you know, two years later they're advocating for

4272
04:14:32,879 --> 04:14:35,280
the precise opposites, and then a year after that they're

4273
04:14:35,360 --> 04:14:38,760
arguing for something totally posed to both like that. That's

4274
04:14:39,159 --> 04:14:43,360
that's literally insane, you know. Or at a Churchill today

4275
04:14:43,399 --> 04:14:45,879
would not be able to pull that off, because he'd

4276
04:14:45,920 --> 04:14:48,479
be people have the memory of a house by these days.

4277
04:14:48,559 --> 04:14:51,079
But he would have been caught him in some scandal

4278
04:14:51,159 --> 04:14:52,920
and or it would have just been like he would

4279
04:14:52,920 --> 04:14:55,280
have just not been making seriously anymore. But you could

4280
04:14:55,360 --> 04:14:58,719
reinvent yourself in nineteen twenty four, nineteen thirty four, you know,

4281
04:14:58,840 --> 04:15:00,440
when there wasn't now there was an the twenty four

4282
04:15:00,479 --> 04:15:03,159
hour media cycle. There wasn't even television then, you know,

4283
04:15:03,479 --> 04:15:06,040
I mean, there was radio, if asull. There there was

4284
04:15:06,079 --> 04:15:08,360
a global media developing but it was it was not this.

4285
04:15:08,600 --> 04:15:12,559
You could you could disappear for years, reinvent yourself and uh,

4286
04:15:12,719 --> 04:15:15,639
if you've got to control people's access to you, and

4287
04:15:15,719 --> 04:15:18,760
if you had like Churchill did, like a real media

4288
04:15:18,879 --> 04:15:21,760
and and and money apparatus behind you, you kind of

4289
04:15:21,840 --> 04:15:26,239
like literally like reinvent your history. Okay, but uh, we're

4290
04:15:26,280 --> 04:15:30,000
gonna uh, we're gonna get into the focus uh next

4291
04:15:30,120 --> 04:15:34,680
uh next uh session and uh and the Warriors and

4292
04:15:35,719 --> 04:15:37,440
will specifically deep dive into that.

4293
04:15:39,680 --> 04:15:43,639
Speaker 1: Then this may be somebody's first. They're just dropping in

4294
04:15:43,760 --> 04:15:45,719
on this one. They haven't heard a previous one. So

4295
04:15:46,319 --> 04:15:47,559
plug plug your stuff.

4296
04:15:48,159 --> 04:15:51,040
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, Pete. You can find me on Twitter

4297
04:15:51,600 --> 04:15:56,959
that uh that awful, awful platform, but I've got high

4298
04:15:57,000 --> 04:16:00,879
hopes for it moving forward thanks to mister and other things.

4299
04:16:01,280 --> 04:16:04,760
You can find me there at number seven hom As

4300
04:16:05,040 --> 04:16:08,520
seven seven seven. You can find me on gab at

4301
04:16:08,719 --> 04:16:13,399
real underscore Thomas seven seven seven. You can find me

4302
04:16:13,479 --> 04:16:18,479
on substack at real Thomas seven seven seven dot subseack

4303
04:16:18,559 --> 04:16:21,799
dot com. We've got a podcast there, we've got long

4304
04:16:21,920 --> 04:16:24,120
form stuff there. We've got all kinds of stuff there,

4305
04:16:24,239 --> 04:16:26,799
and you can join it for only five dollars a month,

4306
04:16:27,479 --> 04:16:29,680
and unless you're like a bona fide hobo, you can

4307
04:16:29,719 --> 04:16:33,520
afford that. I'm not in a position yet where can

4308
04:16:33,600 --> 04:16:35,959
just drop stuff for free. I'm trying to get there,

4309
04:16:36,239 --> 04:16:38,120
Like I'm not just saying that, I genuinely am, but

4310
04:16:38,799 --> 04:16:42,399
right now, every subscription helps, and it'll it'll never be

4311
04:16:42,559 --> 04:16:46,399
more than five bucks a month. But uh, like I said,

4312
04:16:46,639 --> 04:16:49,079
that comes out of something like seventeen cents a day.

4313
04:16:49,559 --> 04:16:51,959
That's cheap than feeding one of those fucking African kids

4314
04:16:52,040 --> 04:16:55,639
like on those late night fucking inframarkets. And I, you know,

4315
04:16:55,879 --> 04:16:57,959
like those average kids got NGO is helping them out.

4316
04:16:58,000 --> 04:17:00,399
I don't have NGO. Was like, I'm like an fucking

4317
04:17:00,440 --> 04:17:04,280
Peckerwood like writes playly in correct stuff like no one's

4318
04:17:04,280 --> 04:17:06,760
gonna like fucking no one's gonna drop fucking paper on

4319
04:17:06,879 --> 04:17:07,959
me if you don't. So there you go.

4320
04:17:09,559 --> 04:17:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, anybody who anybody who comes up to us offering

4321
04:17:12,799 --> 04:17:15,559
us large amounts of cash to write, you to write

4322
04:17:15,639 --> 04:17:17,399
or produce, We're gonna be like, what the hell?

4323
04:17:19,440 --> 04:17:22,520
Speaker 2: What all right? What are we being set up for?

4324
04:17:22,719 --> 04:17:26,360
You know exactly? And forgive me, Uh, I'm getting over

4325
04:17:26,399 --> 04:17:28,399
a big ra a flair up that. So I'm not

4326
04:17:28,559 --> 04:17:31,120
like dying of freaking COVID or AIDS or something like.

4327
04:17:31,200 --> 04:17:33,719
I'm forgetting me for sniffling and cough. I know it's gross,

4328
04:17:34,760 --> 04:17:37,079
but I wanted to. I want to make sure we

4329
04:17:37,120 --> 04:17:40,719
recorded a today and uh, I yeah, we're uh, we're

4330
04:17:40,760 --> 04:17:44,319
gonna well, let's let's record part two of uh of

4331
04:17:44,479 --> 04:17:48,079
church and Churchill's War on Saturday, and we'll go for

4332
04:17:48,159 --> 04:17:50,559
an hour and a half if need be, then okay,

4333
04:17:51,639 --> 04:17:54,360
and then yeah, subsequent to that we'll get into Barbarosa

4334
04:17:54,479 --> 04:17:56,799
and then the addendam will be like Nuremberg and like,

4335
04:17:57,360 --> 04:18:00,520
you know, a summary of you know, the the political

4336
04:18:00,600 --> 04:18:02,680
intrigues of the war and just kind of like a

4337
04:18:04,719 --> 04:18:08,120
summing up, you know, the the Nuremberg World Order and

4338
04:18:08,600 --> 04:18:11,600
the raison Decker for the war itself. And again, I

4339
04:18:11,639 --> 04:18:14,360
can't thank you enough, sincerely, and thanks for commodating me.

4340
04:18:14,520 --> 04:18:16,000
Like I said, I was real sick the past few

4341
04:18:16,079 --> 04:18:19,600
days and you're you're very kind man and understanding. I

4342
04:18:19,639 --> 04:18:20,239
appreciate that.

4343
04:18:20,879 --> 04:18:23,159
Speaker 1: No problem at all. All right, So the next time,

4344
04:18:25,120 --> 04:18:27,440
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekenana show.

4345
04:18:29,319 --> 04:18:33,559
By request, people have been making comments. We are going

4346
04:18:33,639 --> 04:18:36,719
to pick up where we left off with Thomas seven

4347
04:18:36,799 --> 04:18:39,000
seven seven, has it gone Thomas very well?

4348
04:18:39,159 --> 04:18:42,719
Speaker 2: Thank you Pete again, thank you for thank you for

4349
04:18:42,840 --> 04:18:47,319
continuing to host me and for participating in this discussion series.

4350
04:18:47,479 --> 04:18:49,600
Like I indicated last time, I think it's important for

4351
04:18:49,680 --> 04:18:55,559
posterity and just to kind of disseminate revisionist perspectives in

4352
04:18:55,639 --> 04:18:59,600
a way that's more accessible. And I think we're doing

4353
04:18:59,680 --> 04:19:00,479
very good things here.

4354
04:19:01,440 --> 04:19:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm The way I'm going to do this is

4355
04:19:03,760 --> 04:19:07,680
once we record the last episode, all of the episodes

4356
04:19:07,719 --> 04:19:12,040
I put on my substack are private, their early releases.

4357
04:19:12,479 --> 04:19:14,959
I'm going to put these on my substack and make

4358
04:19:15,000 --> 04:19:19,159
them public, and just make these public so anyone can

4359
04:19:19,239 --> 04:19:22,399
go to them. Anyone can get the the RSS feed

4360
04:19:22,479 --> 04:19:25,639
from the substack and can listen to them. So that'll

4361
04:19:25,680 --> 04:19:29,159
be I think that's a good idea, and I trust

4362
04:19:29,200 --> 04:19:30,840
that substack is going to be there for a while.

4363
04:19:31,600 --> 04:19:34,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my primary platform anymore, because I'm mean, I

4364
04:19:34,479 --> 04:19:37,079
get deplatformed a lot, because I think people know I've

4365
04:19:37,159 --> 04:19:41,360
never been censored or deplatformed or warned by substack. I

4366
04:19:41,440 --> 04:19:43,360
believe the only thing that they crag down on is

4367
04:19:43,360 --> 04:19:47,760
obviously pornography, you know, threats of violence or criminality, and

4368
04:19:47,920 --> 04:19:51,600
I do. I have heard people say that they've they've

4369
04:19:51,639 --> 04:19:55,079
they've they've had issues if they if they allow racially

4370
04:19:55,079 --> 04:19:59,120
inflammatory language out out of context. You know, just I

4371
04:19:59,159 --> 04:20:03,760
mean things, and I generally shoot acts. That's it's not

4372
04:20:03,920 --> 04:20:08,079
generally something I include anyway. I mean, not because I

4373
04:20:08,159 --> 04:20:10,319
care if people talk that way, but it's I don't

4374
04:20:10,680 --> 04:20:14,520
really do that. But yeah, substack is is there's a

4375
04:20:14,600 --> 04:20:17,680
reason why I am associated with them. I've been very happy,

4376
04:20:19,000 --> 04:20:19,319
all right.

4377
04:20:19,639 --> 04:20:22,319
Speaker 1: So when we finished off last time, we got up

4378
04:20:22,399 --> 04:20:26,079
to we're talking about Winston Churchill nineteen thirty two, and

4379
04:20:27,040 --> 04:20:30,360
it seems like right about nineteen thirty three he with

4380
04:20:30,760 --> 04:20:34,239
he along with a couple other people, really start to

4381
04:20:34,360 --> 04:20:35,799
rise to prominence and power.

4382
04:20:36,040 --> 04:20:41,600
Speaker 2: So jump in nineteen thirty two was really that, I

4383
04:20:41,680 --> 04:20:46,200
mean Churchill remain Churchill's wilderness years really remained from nineteen

4384
04:20:46,239 --> 04:20:50,559
thirty two, probably until nineteen thirty six, but ninety thirty

4385
04:20:50,559 --> 04:20:54,120
two especially, he was not behaving like a man of

4386
04:20:54,280 --> 04:20:57,639
his portfolio. Okay, a lesser nobleman who had served in

4387
04:20:57,719 --> 04:21:00,920
government and was considered something of a prodigy. Yearly on

4388
04:21:01,120 --> 04:21:06,680
I mean rightly or wrongly, he he began writing really, really,

4389
04:21:06,799 --> 04:21:09,600
really what amounts to hack copy for pretty much anybody

4390
04:21:09,639 --> 04:21:16,360
who would publishes his essays for a time. And this

4391
04:21:16,479 --> 04:21:20,559
is incredibly bizarre. He found this American publishing house that

4392
04:21:20,799 --> 04:21:24,000
was you know, as we talked before about Churchill kind

4393
04:21:24,040 --> 04:21:27,159
of playing a character quite literally, particularly in American media.

4394
04:21:27,280 --> 04:21:31,200
As you know this this kind of John Bull like

4395
04:21:31,360 --> 04:21:34,319
literally like the manifestation of John Bull, like he he

4396
04:21:34,440 --> 04:21:38,000
was almost like this mascot of Old Blighty, and this

4397
04:21:38,120 --> 04:21:42,120
publisher was paying him to write classics of English literature

4398
04:21:42,399 --> 04:21:45,600
is reinterpreted by Winston Churchill, So it's wins in Churchill

4399
04:21:45,639 --> 04:21:48,040
literally writing kind of the comic book cliffs Notes version

4400
04:21:48,079 --> 04:21:50,360
of things like weathering Heights, with his own kind of

4401
04:21:50,559 --> 04:21:54,280
snarky commentary, interspersed in jokes like why anybody want to

4402
04:21:54,319 --> 04:21:58,239
read that? I have no idea. They didn't sell particularly well.

4403
04:21:58,399 --> 04:22:01,360
I mean, Churchill pretty much was living the advancements from

4404
04:22:01,399 --> 04:22:05,559
things like that. He still had a good relationship with

4405
04:22:05,600 --> 04:22:10,360
the Daily Mail, which soured very rapidly shortly thereafter. We're

4406
04:22:10,360 --> 04:22:12,639
gonna get into why that was. But I mean that'd

4407
04:22:12,680 --> 04:22:16,040
be like it's an imperfect analogy, but imagine a guy

4408
04:22:16,159 --> 04:22:18,319
like John Kerry or like Mitt Romney, one of these

4409
04:22:18,319 --> 04:22:21,399
guys just kind of bounces around the swamp like a man.

4410
04:22:21,559 --> 04:22:24,680
If you started writing kind of cheap romance novels, you know,

4411
04:22:24,840 --> 04:22:28,120
kind of men's adventure novels and it just started publishing

4412
04:22:28,159 --> 04:22:31,040
op eds and wappo and you know, on the daily

4413
04:22:31,120 --> 04:22:33,399
beast like that, that would seem strange, I mean, would

4414
04:22:33,399 --> 04:22:36,440
it not. I mean that seems strange today. It's really

4415
04:22:36,520 --> 04:22:40,440
strange for you know, nineteen thirty nineteen thirty one. So

4416
04:22:40,600 --> 04:22:43,559
he was. My point is that, you know, this, this

4417
04:22:43,719 --> 04:22:46,879
is not a man who I mean, not only was

4418
04:22:46,879 --> 04:22:49,200
he not particularly liquid and wealthy, but he wasn't just

4419
04:22:49,280 --> 04:22:51,719
a man in the kind of genteel poverty that a

4420
04:22:51,799 --> 04:22:55,399
lot of you know, kind of lesser noblemen found themselves

4421
04:22:55,479 --> 04:22:58,520
in the in the hustle and bustle twentieth century. I mean,

4422
04:22:58,559 --> 04:23:00,799
this was a guy with real problems. You know, he

4423
04:23:01,200 --> 04:23:04,040
was very, very very addicted to alcohol. He had a

4424
04:23:04,159 --> 04:23:06,559
son who couldn't seem to make his own way in

4425
04:23:06,600 --> 04:23:09,360
the world, and you know it was a degenerate gambler.

4426
04:23:09,680 --> 04:23:11,520
You know, he had a daughter who suffered from depression.

4427
04:23:11,600 --> 04:23:13,559
And there's nothing funny about that. And I'm not making

4428
04:23:13,600 --> 04:23:16,200
fun of that. Or saying that that's grounds for prejudice

4429
04:23:16,280 --> 04:23:19,479
or something. But you know, he this was not a

4430
04:23:19,600 --> 04:23:23,719
family that was doing well, okay, And and Churchill really

4431
04:23:23,920 --> 04:23:28,319
was his ability to degenerate income was supporting not just

4432
04:23:28,680 --> 04:23:31,840
himself and his wife, but his adult children and all

4433
04:23:31,879 --> 04:23:35,079
these hanger ons like it wasn't this this this this

4434
04:23:35,239 --> 04:23:37,559
was not a responsible man, okay. And I mean I

4435
04:23:39,000 --> 04:23:42,479
as a it's I know, in America people like to

4436
04:23:42,559 --> 04:23:44,920
draw this kind of distinction between private and public life,

4437
04:23:44,920 --> 04:23:47,680
and in some ways that's appropriate. But if you look

4438
04:23:47,680 --> 04:23:49,719
at the way a man governs his private affairs, if

4439
04:23:49,719 --> 04:23:53,719
he does that in a grossly irresponsible way, you can't

4440
04:23:53,799 --> 04:23:57,479
say that. Oh. But in public life, he's entirely responsible,

4441
04:23:57,520 --> 04:24:01,079
and he's you know, not at all his passions, and

4442
04:24:01,639 --> 04:24:05,120
you know, he's constantly able to discern the correct courts

4443
04:24:05,159 --> 04:24:08,760
even if he fails time and again, and and affairs

4444
04:24:08,799 --> 04:24:10,760
of the heart and personal matters. I mean, I think

4445
04:24:10,799 --> 04:24:12,280
that's important. I mean, I don't know, that's not just

4446
04:24:12,360 --> 04:24:14,479
me putting shade on Churchill because I think that he's

4447
04:24:14,840 --> 04:24:19,319
not an admirable figure. But bring it back kind of

4448
04:24:19,360 --> 04:24:24,799
the hard and fast facts of the thing. In uh,

4449
04:24:25,040 --> 04:24:28,680
Frederick Lindeman and they're aout nine nearly two. If Frederick

4450
04:24:28,719 --> 04:24:31,319
Lindaman was kind of Churchill was only really close associated.

4451
04:24:34,360 --> 04:24:38,040
Lindaman had a background someone like Churchill. He was German born.

4452
04:24:39,760 --> 04:24:42,920
He was the Lord of Charwaal and probably butchering that pronunciation.

4453
04:24:43,920 --> 04:24:47,040
He was something of a gadfly. He shared kind of

4454
04:24:47,120 --> 04:24:50,840
Lord van Sattart's hostility to Germany. But at the same

4455
04:24:50,920 --> 04:24:53,559
time he was quite anti Jewish, anti Zionist, and he

4456
04:24:53,719 --> 04:25:00,239
was dogmatically anti communist. But Churill's association with him, uh,

4457
04:25:00,840 --> 04:25:02,719
both he and Churchill, they kind of made a habit

4458
04:25:02,760 --> 04:25:05,719
of of of constantly assailing Ramsey McDonald who was then

4459
04:25:06,399 --> 04:25:10,559
Prime minister. And McDonald, Uh, I think he's an interesting

4460
04:25:10,600 --> 04:25:14,120
prime minister brief as his tenure was. But he made

4461
04:25:14,200 --> 04:25:18,239
a lot of enemies among industrialists and and and and

4462
04:25:18,440 --> 04:25:20,639
among old empire loyalist types because you know, the guy

4463
04:25:20,799 --> 04:25:22,719
was viewed as being, you know, not just friendly to

4464
04:25:22,879 --> 04:25:26,000
trade unionism, but you know, people people accused him of

4465
04:25:26,079 --> 04:25:29,719
being read. People accused him of having these radical social assemblies,

4466
04:25:29,760 --> 04:25:31,399
which he really didn't. I mean, he was something of

4467
04:25:31,440 --> 04:25:36,440
a grand coalition builder. He fancied himself as that that

4468
04:25:36,559 --> 04:25:42,239
included uh, that included uh, being somewhat cozy with radical elements,

4469
04:25:42,280 --> 04:25:44,319
but he certainly was not a communist. He certainly was

4470
04:25:44,440 --> 04:25:49,120
not you know some uh, some sort of radical, but

4471
04:25:49,319 --> 04:25:52,879
McDonald was uh, you know one of his uh, one

4472
04:25:52,920 --> 04:25:55,639
of his big policy points was disarmament. I mean, this

4473
04:25:55,760 --> 04:25:59,159
was a global movement towards disarmament. Okay, the League of Nations,

4474
04:25:59,200 --> 04:26:02,639
that was its purported Raizon detra. But McDonald he actually

4475
04:26:02,639 --> 04:26:05,879
took that seriously and he said, why the hell, what

4476
04:26:06,120 --> 04:26:08,600
what are we arming for war against? You know, he's like,

4477
04:26:08,719 --> 04:26:11,120
Germany right now is pro strate, and even were it not,

4478
04:26:11,319 --> 04:26:14,319
there's really no reason for us to to collide with

4479
04:26:14,399 --> 04:26:19,000
them on strategic matters. You know, even even with even

4480
04:26:19,040 --> 04:26:21,719
with the situation in Vymar and with the then you know,

4481
04:26:21,799 --> 04:26:25,600
ascending national socialists. You know that this is not some

4482
04:26:25,719 --> 04:26:28,319
clear and present threat to the to the United Kingdom

4483
04:26:28,479 --> 04:26:32,680
or its empire. That's ridiculous. He avoided discussion of the

4484
04:26:32,719 --> 04:26:35,520
Soviet Union, but that was pretty common among any labor

4485
04:26:35,600 --> 04:26:38,639
politician then this and you can say that that's not

4486
04:26:38,760 --> 04:26:42,440
a particularly flattering tendency as as as such that has existed,

4487
04:26:42,520 --> 04:26:44,799
but he was not unique in that. But The point

4488
04:26:44,879 --> 04:26:47,360
is McDonald was not its simply trying to stick it

4489
04:26:47,440 --> 04:26:51,239
to the these arm these armaments concerns and these munitions

4490
04:26:51,319 --> 04:26:56,719
manufacturers and UH the very very strong UH Admiral t lobby.

4491
04:26:58,120 --> 04:27:00,559
He he really believed in this, and you know, he

4492
04:27:00,680 --> 04:27:06,719
believed that this was viable. And frankly, what killed the

4493
04:27:06,840 --> 04:27:11,600
enterprise in nineteen thirty three was when the Germans formally

4494
04:27:11,639 --> 04:27:14,600
withdrew from the League of Nations. But by that point

4495
04:27:15,120 --> 04:27:19,719
in McDonald's efforts had been had really had really been

4496
04:27:19,799 --> 04:27:24,680
tanked by the fact that it was becoming increasingly clear

4497
04:27:24,799 --> 04:27:28,840
that you know, proposals like the Washington Naval Treaty and

4498
04:27:29,920 --> 04:27:34,040
you know what the French are demanding as regards collecting

4499
04:27:34,040 --> 04:27:37,120
and security and the continent. You know, it meant disharmament

4500
04:27:37,239 --> 04:27:41,559
for for thee but not for me. And even if

4501
04:27:41,639 --> 04:27:45,120
Hitler had not been at the Helm by then, I

4502
04:27:46,520 --> 04:27:49,920
think whoever was Chancellor would would have done the same thing.

4503
04:27:50,200 --> 04:27:56,799
You know, the Japanese and ceremoniously withdrew after, you know,

4504
04:27:56,840 --> 04:27:58,639
in the in the wake of the Washington Naval Treaty,

4505
04:27:58,719 --> 04:28:02,239
and and in there, you know, in their words, they

4506
04:28:02,280 --> 04:28:04,399
were being treated like coolies. And then there's some truth

4507
04:28:04,440 --> 04:28:06,920
to that. I mean, however, anybody feels with the Japanese Empire,

4508
04:28:09,200 --> 04:28:12,920
they were they were essentially being dictated to that. You know,

4509
04:28:12,959 --> 04:28:16,920
they could only uh, they can only maintain uh a

4510
04:28:17,000 --> 04:28:19,760
fraction of the military maritime tonnage that the United States

4511
04:28:19,799 --> 04:28:23,680
and the UK would And I mean nobody, you're you're

4512
04:28:23,719 --> 04:28:26,959
you're essentially you're not practicing diplomas. To you, when you

4513
04:28:27,040 --> 04:28:31,719
issue those kinds of ultimatums, you know, you're you're you're

4514
04:28:31,719 --> 04:28:34,559
aiming for diplomacy to fail on purpose, to rationalize your

4515
04:28:34,600 --> 04:28:39,280
own continued, of course the best policy, and it's exactly

4516
04:28:39,319 --> 04:28:47,159
what happened. But during this time, uh, Churchill's other patron

4517
04:28:47,520 --> 04:28:50,319
that he picked up, probably for cynical reasons only in

4518
04:28:50,440 --> 04:28:55,079
large parts we just mentioned is continued to saals On McDonald,

4519
04:28:55,879 --> 04:28:59,559
Lord Rothmere, who uh uh.

4520
04:29:01,040 --> 04:29:02,840
Speaker 1: Was he was?

4521
04:29:02,879 --> 04:29:04,920
Speaker 2: He was He was a newspaper magnate, Okay, like he

4522
04:29:05,079 --> 04:29:08,200
was kind of I'm trying to think of a good counterpart,

4523
04:29:08,360 --> 04:29:12,399
uh to uh kind of kind of a Robert McCormick

4524
04:29:12,440 --> 04:29:16,399
sort of figure. Okay, Rothmer lost two sons in the

4525
04:29:16,479 --> 04:29:21,840
Great War, you know, he so he it was he

4526
04:29:22,200 --> 04:29:24,920
he very much had an interest in reaching a conqueror

4527
04:29:24,959 --> 04:29:27,440
with Germany. That was personal, not just because he was

4528
04:29:27,520 --> 04:29:31,360
kind of an old line patriot. Yeah, he developed uh,

4529
04:29:31,879 --> 04:29:38,319
a fairly amiable corresponding Tyler, which there was a very

4530
04:29:39,159 --> 04:29:44,639
very few people Taylor correspond mostly with another one. But

4531
04:29:47,079 --> 04:29:51,159
he was very selective in his contexts. There's not a

4532
04:29:51,280 --> 04:29:54,399
lot to this correspondence other than Rothmere stating that, you know,

4533
04:29:54,559 --> 04:30:00,840
he he sees no reason why uh, the Tories uh

4534
04:30:01,360 --> 04:30:03,559
or the Liberals, if that or is flipped into office,

4535
04:30:03,760 --> 04:30:06,600
why they would not continue a course of you know,

4536
04:30:06,719 --> 04:30:12,559
reconciliation with Germany. However, in the euthemistic language Rothnier employed,

4537
04:30:12,680 --> 04:30:15,120
you know, there were elements that wanted to see this fail.

4538
04:30:16,559 --> 04:30:17,799
I mean, you can read the you can read the

4539
04:30:17,920 --> 04:30:21,000
entirety of the correspondence, I believe on the Wilson Center's website.

4540
04:30:21,040 --> 04:30:23,639
I'm not endorsing the Wilson Center, but I believe it

4541
04:30:23,719 --> 04:30:25,959
is there. If not, there's other places you can find it.

4542
04:30:26,000 --> 04:30:28,920
But my point is there's not some there. There's not

4543
04:30:29,120 --> 04:30:31,840
some remarkable nuggets of historical truth in these things. I

4544
04:30:31,840 --> 04:30:35,280
only I bring it up because it's significant to uh

4545
04:30:36,319 --> 04:30:44,479
addressing the rift between Churchill and Rothmere as a as

4546
04:30:46,479 --> 04:30:52,719
as Churchill's UH kinda kind of anti German polemic UH

4547
04:30:53,479 --> 04:30:59,120
reached increasingly fevered piss fevered pitch. Uh. Rothmer finally got

4548
04:30:59,159 --> 04:31:02,120
so affronted by it that he uh he he ended

4549
04:31:02,280 --> 04:31:06,040
any any any association with Churchill. He refused to pay

4550
04:31:06,120 --> 04:31:09,120
him for any more content. You refuse to run anything

4551
04:31:09,239 --> 04:31:11,319
secondhand that had been penned by Churchill? Or was it

4552
04:31:11,360 --> 04:31:17,440
all sympathetic to his uh, to his uh position? And

4553
04:31:17,639 --> 04:31:20,000
so again? I mean Churchill was a if not so

4554
04:31:20,120 --> 04:31:24,000
much casting in the wilderness politically as he had been uh.

4555
04:31:25,120 --> 04:31:29,159
He was once again without a financial patron and extended him,

4556
04:31:29,360 --> 04:31:33,639
you know, loans the world you know pretty gives all

4557
04:31:33,719 --> 04:31:39,239
the name and church we uh it started a patent

4558
04:31:41,479 --> 04:31:56,600
thirty four and whatever his god for big Church he

4559
04:31:56,799 --> 04:32:03,799
got being seen in hold On, we're losing.

4560
04:32:04,000 --> 04:32:08,159
Speaker 1: Hold On, We're losing You're you're going in and out.

4561
04:32:09,079 --> 04:32:10,840
Your connection, Your connection is weak.

4562
04:32:11,959 --> 04:32:20,680
Speaker 2: Okay, how about now I don't see the It sounds better, Yeah,

4563
04:32:20,920 --> 04:32:24,360
just might were trying to restore the connection. Okay, okay,

4564
04:32:24,360 --> 04:32:26,479
how about now it sounds better.

4565
04:32:27,040 --> 04:32:29,520
Speaker 1: It's I'm still reading it as weak, but that doesn't

4566
04:32:29,559 --> 04:32:32,239
mean anything. It just matters how it sounds okay.

4567
04:32:32,120 --> 04:32:36,840
Speaker 2: I'm coming through. Okay, yeah, keep going. Okay. So Churchill's

4568
04:32:36,920 --> 04:32:41,239
yachting in the Mediterranean, you know, uh, at least giving

4569
04:32:41,319 --> 04:32:45,000
him appearances. It makes the acquaintance of him man named

4570
04:32:45,000 --> 04:32:50,680
Alexander Korda Alan core is the Hungarian jew. He's emigrated

4571
04:32:50,719 --> 04:32:54,840
literally to Hollywood. Okay, like he was the early uh

4572
04:32:55,159 --> 04:32:59,479
talkie films. Okay, he was very prominent in this nascent industry,

4573
04:33:02,479 --> 04:33:08,080
a bunch of business at this time. Okay, there probably

4574
04:33:08,479 --> 04:33:14,720
uk perruption. Coffee from Perruption was come. I can't go

4575
04:33:14,919 --> 04:33:18,919
on the film the Spring type much of it. I

4576
04:33:19,000 --> 04:33:21,560
have no idea of the quality of it, but it

4577
04:33:21,680 --> 04:33:27,680
was manasically probable. Quarter became incredibly wealthy. Quarterbacks church is

4578
04:33:27,720 --> 04:33:31,200
acquaintance and he bails him out. He quite literally pays

4579
04:33:31,240 --> 04:33:34,279
his debts and he want me to do so, okay,

4580
04:33:36,880 --> 04:33:45,400
go ahead before by cutting you know, bai literally my

4581
04:33:45,560 --> 04:33:52,639
Carlo uh bails out Churchill, I believe to the tune

4582
04:33:52,680 --> 04:33:55,639
of ten thousand pounds sterling, which was a huge amount

4583
04:33:55,680 --> 04:34:00,439
of money in those days. Okay, later, really weeks later,

4584
04:34:00,560 --> 04:34:03,799
owing to Churchill, Spencer Dways, he approaches Korda asks for

4585
04:34:03,919 --> 04:34:09,720
more money. Okay, you know, you know there's another infusion

4586
04:34:09,799 --> 04:34:14,040
of of cash even hire Churchill's daughter for a no

4587
04:34:14,159 --> 04:34:17,040
work job. Okay, because church Will kind of confided to him,

4588
04:34:17,040 --> 04:34:18,919
you know, I'm worried about my daughter and you know

4589
04:34:19,040 --> 04:34:21,720
the man she's carrying on with, that's a whole other story.

4590
04:34:21,759 --> 04:34:25,080
I don't want to get into a digression. But so

4591
04:34:25,200 --> 04:34:27,319
you know, not only is Corda paying Churchill's bills, he's

4592
04:34:27,319 --> 04:34:29,880
covering on his gambling debts and he's hiring Churchi's wayward,

4593
04:34:30,000 --> 04:34:32,720
kind of say it, butter with these with these psychological problems,

4594
04:34:32,759 --> 04:34:35,040
which again are no fault of her own. But you

4595
04:34:35,119 --> 04:34:38,639
know he's, uh, he's literally hiring the man's family for

4596
04:34:38,720 --> 04:34:40,880
these no show jobs. You know, it's something a mafiosi

4597
04:34:40,919 --> 04:34:45,560
what or something. Corda Ferd gets a joks in. Churchill

4598
04:34:45,599 --> 04:34:47,319
tells him, Hey, look, I'm gonna give you a job.

4599
04:34:47,360 --> 04:34:49,080
You know, He's like, I don't need to pay up

4600
04:34:49,119 --> 04:34:50,400
the money I gave you, but I'm gonna give you

4601
04:34:50,439 --> 04:34:53,040
a job. I'm gonna commission you to write a screenplay

4602
04:34:53,279 --> 04:34:55,840
on you know, the life of George. The fifth Hitdled Jubilee,

4603
04:34:55,959 --> 04:34:58,880
because you know, the the Jubilee celebration at George the

4604
04:34:58,919 --> 04:35:00,840
fifth is coming up. You know, this would just be

4605
04:35:00,959 --> 04:35:03,680
so great, and this will put you on the map again,

4606
04:35:03,799 --> 04:35:06,319
and you know you can kind of rebuild some respectability

4607
04:35:06,400 --> 04:35:08,919
as you know, not not not just a man of title,

4608
04:35:09,000 --> 04:35:10,799
but a man of means, and you know who's kind

4609
04:35:10,840 --> 04:35:13,840
of engaged with you know, the the twentieth century. And

4610
04:35:13,959 --> 04:35:18,799
this will be great, you know. And Churchill does that

4611
04:35:19,080 --> 04:35:20,680
kind of out and off. You know, he writes this

4612
04:35:20,759 --> 04:35:23,759
screenplay that never comes to fruition, but there's much made

4613
04:35:23,799 --> 04:35:26,000
and kind of like society pages like O Churchill's under

4614
04:35:26,000 --> 04:35:28,000
the film industry, like what a great what a great

4615
04:35:28,080 --> 04:35:30,000
thing this is, you know, and look he's you know,

4616
04:35:30,080 --> 04:35:32,200
he's this man about tout to mister Korda and oh wow,

4617
04:35:32,319 --> 04:35:34,599
you know, like you know, Winston's not just this kind

4618
04:35:34,639 --> 04:35:38,000
of stuffy old uh you know, descend into the the

4619
04:35:38,080 --> 04:35:40,119
House of Marlborough or whatever. He's you know, really on

4620
04:35:40,240 --> 04:35:43,439
the he's really he's really doing great things for national

4621
04:35:43,560 --> 04:35:46,119
prestige and and all this other stuff. I mean, uh

4622
04:35:48,279 --> 04:35:51,680
so throughout uh nineteen thirty four, it's going to Churchill's

4623
04:35:51,720 --> 04:35:59,240
new patron Court introduces Churchill the Bernard Baruk uh Bernard

4624
04:35:59,319 --> 04:36:01,919
Baruk is a anchor quite literally. You know, he's a

4625
04:36:01,959 --> 04:36:05,520
Wall Street financer. He's also a huge Zionist. Okay, his

4626
04:36:05,799 --> 04:36:09,040
UH is his whole, his old cause, his whole kind

4627
04:36:09,040 --> 04:36:15,959
of life outside of business finance and and UH. And

4628
04:36:16,040 --> 04:36:18,479
this kind of wheeling and dealing is UH, you know,

4629
04:36:20,279 --> 04:36:23,919
procuring uh a racially pure if we can, you know,

4630
04:36:25,159 --> 04:36:30,840
used the familiar terms of the era. UH created Jewish

4631
04:36:30,840 --> 04:36:33,040
state in Palestine, you know, in a homeland for the

4632
04:36:33,119 --> 04:36:35,439
Jewish people where that would be for them alone. And

4633
04:36:36,200 --> 04:36:38,720
you know he's UH. When he's not editing for this,

4634
04:36:38,959 --> 04:36:43,680
he's you know, he's funding myriad Jewish causes and you

4635
04:36:43,759 --> 04:36:45,799
know in in in the United States and in Europe.

4636
04:36:45,880 --> 04:36:48,040
You know he's UH. He's active with the Nascent and

4637
04:36:48,119 --> 04:36:51,560
Anti Defamation League, which was you know, it'd come into

4638
04:36:51,599 --> 04:36:56,000
existence in the nineteen teens atter the Leo Frank incident,

4639
04:36:56,200 --> 04:36:58,080
which UH, I don't want to get into here. People

4640
04:36:58,159 --> 04:37:00,319
strong feelings about that in my own opinion, but that

4641
04:37:00,959 --> 04:37:04,000
you know, my point is that he was as as

4642
04:37:04,119 --> 04:37:10,439
Jewish power in America became institutionalized, he was an instrumental

4643
04:37:10,520 --> 04:37:16,439
figure in this. Okay, Churchill became so tight with Baruk

4644
04:37:16,560 --> 04:37:19,840
and with Coorda later on, I mean the jump ahead

4645
04:37:19,919 --> 04:37:22,319
just for a moment, and I forty two Korda was

4646
04:37:22,360 --> 04:37:25,040
made a knight by Churchill or Churchill sponsored and essentially

4647
04:37:25,080 --> 04:37:27,439
demanded his knighthood. Now this is what I heard of

4648
04:37:27,599 --> 04:37:30,279
for a film industry personage. Okay, it was the first

4649
04:37:30,319 --> 04:37:33,680
time the titleman conferred on anybody like that. All right,

4650
04:37:33,759 --> 04:37:35,479
but this gives you an idea of the degree to

4651
04:37:35,520 --> 04:37:39,799
which they were their their kind of fortunes were insinuated. Okay,

4652
04:37:39,880 --> 04:37:41,520
this was not just some you know, temporary marriage of

4653
04:37:41,599 --> 04:37:47,479
convenience like Churchill's. Churchill's job basically became, you know, acting

4654
04:37:47,520 --> 04:37:53,680
in the employee of this man and his associates very quickly.

4655
04:37:53,880 --> 04:38:00,279
Uh after Uh, this is kind of solidified Churchill kind

4656
04:38:00,279 --> 04:38:03,799
of singular focus. He begins declaring that German air powers

4657
04:38:03,840 --> 04:38:08,520
and mortal foots the British Empire. He begins stating that,

4658
04:38:08,759 --> 04:38:12,159
you know, owing to these intelligent sources that he never discloses,

4659
04:38:12,680 --> 04:38:15,880
you know, Germany's by by nineteen thirty five, Germany will

4660
04:38:15,880 --> 04:38:18,840
have five thousand assault aircraft. You know, these aircrafts can

4661
04:38:18,919 --> 04:38:21,959
drop these aircraft and one sortie can drop five hundred

4662
04:38:22,000 --> 04:38:25,560
tons of bombs on London. You know, in contrast, you

4663
04:38:25,599 --> 04:38:28,680
know there's a there's not a single uh you know,

4664
04:38:28,799 --> 04:38:31,119
the Royal Air Force doesn't even have the capacity to

4665
04:38:31,159 --> 04:38:34,880
reach the European continent, which was nonsense by that time,

4666
04:38:34,959 --> 04:38:39,159
even prior, even even before the Lancaster bomber. Go to

4667
04:38:39,240 --> 04:38:41,360
the drawing board, like the RAF nine and thirty four

4668
04:38:41,360 --> 04:38:43,400
to thirty five, they could have easily reached the low

4669
04:38:43,439 --> 04:38:45,479
countries and even the rarer. Okay, so I meany this

4670
04:38:45,639 --> 04:38:49,240
was just an out and out confabulation. This is large

4671
04:38:49,319 --> 04:38:53,439
you met with derision, but it gains an audience with

4672
04:38:53,639 --> 04:38:57,599
the people sympathetic to the politics of people like like

4673
04:38:57,720 --> 04:39:02,959
baruqu and Quorda, a man Desmond Morton, businessman industrial as

4674
04:39:03,080 --> 04:39:07,240
another wealthy patron. He establishes what weaken through a political

4675
04:39:07,319 --> 04:39:10,639
action committee. It's called the Industrial Intelligence Center. I mean

4676
04:39:10,799 --> 04:39:13,840
that sounds innocuous, right and neutral and you know, like

4677
04:39:14,279 --> 04:39:16,360
some kind of source you'd go for you go to

4678
04:39:17,560 --> 04:39:19,919
for data on the world around you and particularly on

4679
04:39:20,479 --> 04:39:23,720
you know, the capabilities of nations, actually your potential. He

4680
04:39:23,799 --> 04:39:28,479
starts this Industrial intelligence in this Industrial Intelligent Center, it

4681
04:39:28,560 --> 04:39:32,319
begins presenting figures in data, once again based on undisclosed

4682
04:39:32,360 --> 04:39:36,119
sources in the intelligence community. He again reiterates, He says

4683
04:39:36,159 --> 04:39:38,319
that you know, by in the nine thirty five there

4684
04:39:38,319 --> 04:39:41,200
will be five thousand German assault aircraft. You know, the UK,

4685
04:39:41,520 --> 04:39:44,680
even at max On production, you know, could only field

4686
04:39:44,759 --> 04:39:48,680
nine hundred. You know, mind you there's never these these

4687
04:39:48,680 --> 04:39:51,080
statistics were never cited. There's never any discussion of the

4688
04:39:51,119 --> 04:39:54,959
make or models aircraft. There's never any discussion of their quality.

4689
04:39:55,040 --> 04:39:56,840
There's never any discussion of their arrange. There's never any

4690
04:39:56,880 --> 04:40:00,599
discussion of their armaments. You know, nothing or do they claim,

4691
04:40:00,639 --> 04:40:02,720
you know, if London was targeted and one day there'd

4692
04:40:02,720 --> 04:40:05,560
be thirty thousand dead, you know, within sevent days of assault,

4693
04:40:05,599 --> 04:40:09,919
possibly double that. You know. Uh. Chamberlain, to his credit,

4694
04:40:10,080 --> 04:40:13,279
publicly stated you know, there's no information banking Churchill's claims.

4695
04:40:14,240 --> 04:40:18,680
But uh, you know, even before uh, even before Chamberlain

4696
04:40:18,759 --> 04:40:21,520
became this kind of figure that was burning effigy, you know,

4697
04:40:21,599 --> 04:40:24,959
after after the Munich, after the aftermath of the Munich

4698
04:40:25,000 --> 04:40:28,279
Summit and and subsequent you know, history that that that

4699
04:40:28,400 --> 04:40:30,360
that is, you know, assigned him this kind of villain's role,

4700
04:40:30,799 --> 04:40:32,919
you know, Chamberlain and out of the public profile Churchill

4701
04:40:33,000 --> 04:40:34,919
did nor did he have the backing, you know, nor

4702
04:40:34,959 --> 04:40:38,240
did they have the uh, the ability to disseminate rebuttals

4703
04:40:38,240 --> 04:40:40,759
to what Churchill was saying. You know, Churchill didn't quite

4704
04:40:40,759 --> 04:40:42,680
have a bully pulpit. He wasn't even in government at

4705
04:40:42,720 --> 04:40:46,319
this time. But if your friends are all millionaires, I mean,

4706
04:40:46,400 --> 04:40:49,959
by today's standards, that'd be billionaires. You know, they're insinuated

4707
04:40:49,959 --> 04:40:53,799
in media, you know, they're they're they They've got power

4708
04:40:53,880 --> 04:40:56,159
and authority on Wall Street. I mean, you can get

4709
04:40:56,159 --> 04:40:58,439
a lot done. And if you go around yelling things

4710
04:40:58,520 --> 04:41:02,159
from that perobial rooftops, even if it's nonsense, you're gonna

4711
04:41:02,680 --> 04:41:05,279
people are gonna listen to you if you say it enough. Okay,

4712
04:41:06,360 --> 04:41:09,119
it doesn't matter if you've got Ramsey McDonald, you know,

4713
04:41:09,200 --> 04:41:12,439
it's kind of on his way out anyway, and we're asking,

4714
04:41:12,479 --> 04:41:15,000
you know, no voting no confidence. It doesn't matter if

4715
04:41:15,000 --> 04:41:16,959
you got you know, mister Chamberlain kind of kind of

4716
04:41:17,080 --> 04:41:19,880
kind of stuffy, dull mister Chamberlain saying, well, actually this

4717
04:41:19,919 --> 04:41:22,200
isn't true in citing the facts and figures to rebut it.

4718
04:41:22,799 --> 04:41:25,119
You know, it comes down to presentation. It comes down

4719
04:41:25,159 --> 04:41:28,159
to saturation of the of the conceptual landscape. I mean,

4720
04:41:28,200 --> 04:41:31,000
we see this today, you know, people say totally insane

4721
04:41:31,080 --> 04:41:33,680
things about Vladimir Putin and Russia, like even if you

4722
04:41:33,720 --> 04:41:35,959
don't like the Russians or don't like mister Putin or

4723
04:41:36,080 --> 04:41:39,520
sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause, whatever that may be, the

4724
04:41:39,759 --> 04:41:42,360
things that are said about this situation don't make any sense.

4725
04:41:42,599 --> 04:41:46,119
It's like, okay, well, it was the same thing in

4726
04:41:46,200 --> 04:41:49,639
those days, and I'd argue it was even more insidious

4727
04:41:49,720 --> 04:41:51,880
because you didn't you couldn't get in the Internet and

4728
04:41:51,959 --> 04:41:53,639
fact check, you know, and you didn't. You didn't you

4729
04:41:53,680 --> 04:41:56,759
didn't have alternative sources of media. You know, you basically

4730
04:41:56,880 --> 04:41:59,479
had whoever could yell aloud is to read the most

4731
04:41:59,520 --> 04:42:03,400
outlets that would be receptive to the publicizing and disseminating

4732
04:42:03,520 --> 04:42:10,959
these statements. That was the opinion that won out ninety

4733
04:42:11,040 --> 04:42:15,639
thirty five. The German air cords German air codes, at

4734
04:42:15,720 --> 04:42:19,959
least the lower operational air codes are actually broken by

4735
04:42:20,000 --> 04:42:26,479
British intelligence. UK Foreign Secretary John Simon. He says what

4736
04:42:26,639 --> 04:42:30,840
Churchill saying is nonsense. The number of extant, actually existing

4737
04:42:30,919 --> 04:42:33,959
German aircraft he's talking forces and being was five hundred

4738
04:42:33,959 --> 04:42:38,040
and seventy eight. UK Foreign Secretary John Simon, he met

4739
04:42:38,080 --> 04:42:42,200
with Erhard Milch in March at ninety thirty five. For

4740
04:42:42,279 --> 04:42:44,680
those that don't know, Milts was the first CEO and

4741
04:42:44,759 --> 04:42:46,919
he was really the He was the founder of Luftanza.

4742
04:42:48,439 --> 04:42:51,919
He later became a field Marshal. He was the hero

4743
04:42:52,080 --> 04:42:55,840
of the Battle of Narviik. He was ethnically part Jewish.

4744
04:42:55,880 --> 04:42:58,200
He's an interesting guy. David Irving wrote a great body

4745
04:42:58,279 --> 04:43:04,279
few of them, but Uh, Simon met with Milt because

4746
04:43:04,319 --> 04:43:06,959
Miltch was something I mean, he wasn't just he didn't

4747
04:43:07,599 --> 04:43:10,240
just have military rank. He was a diplomat of his

4748
04:43:10,400 --> 04:43:12,720
in his own right, as much as business mobiles are

4749
04:43:12,720 --> 04:43:15,319
because they have to be. Uh. Milt was a guy

4750
04:43:15,360 --> 04:43:20,880
who was genuinely well liked, Unlike unlike UH, Unlike the

4751
04:43:21,040 --> 04:43:24,159
unlike the official Foreign ministry, a lot of these figures

4752
04:43:24,159 --> 04:43:26,479
in the UK actually liked dealing with Miltch. Okay, that's

4753
04:43:26,520 --> 04:43:28,159
it seems strange for him to be meeting with the

4754
04:43:28,200 --> 04:43:32,759
Foreign secretary. That's why Simon wanted to meet with him

4755
04:43:32,759 --> 04:43:37,560
to discuss the up the forthcoming naval talks, the UH

4756
04:43:38,240 --> 04:43:43,159
after the UH after the UH after what happened, you know,

4757
04:43:43,200 --> 04:43:45,479
with the Kaiser's high seas fleet and in terms of

4758
04:43:45,520 --> 04:43:47,959
provoking anxieties which led to an arms race, which in

4759
04:43:48,000 --> 04:43:50,720
turn was an contributing factor to the Great War. There

4760
04:43:50,799 --> 04:43:55,240
was great concern and more responsible policy circles about transparency

4761
04:43:55,360 --> 04:43:58,240
in in armament and maritime armaments. Okay, that was the

4762
04:43:58,439 --> 04:44:02,159
context of that. Milt wrote down in his diary, his

4763
04:44:02,279 --> 04:44:04,880
personal diary after the meeting with John Simon, quote, we

4764
04:44:04,959 --> 04:44:09,560
are banking on Britain's assistance against Russia. That is important. Okay.

4765
04:44:09,639 --> 04:44:12,040
That actually is an essential kind of nugget at truth

4766
04:44:12,200 --> 04:44:15,240
like buried in this kind of murky miasma of of

4767
04:44:16,799 --> 04:44:20,520
of diplomatic and military intrigues of the era. Okay, I

4768
04:44:20,599 --> 04:44:23,000
mean Milt really not only was he close to Adolf Hitler.

4769
04:44:23,400 --> 04:44:27,680
He was even though jashaunakat At at that point and

4770
04:44:27,919 --> 04:44:31,799
ernst Udet had more formal authority within the LOOFWAFFA. I

4771
04:44:31,840 --> 04:44:34,520
would argue that Milts was probably closest to Gerring in

4772
04:44:34,639 --> 04:44:39,200
operational terms. Okay. The fact that Milts not only is

4773
04:44:39,240 --> 04:44:42,680
he striking a non confrontational poshu or towards the UK,

4774
04:44:43,000 --> 04:44:49,000
he's openly you know, writing in his private diary that

4775
04:44:49,680 --> 04:44:52,680
an essential aspect of his strategic vision, and thus Berlin's

4776
04:44:52,680 --> 04:44:57,400
strategic vision is bringing the UK into its strategic fold

4777
04:44:57,720 --> 04:45:01,720
as an ally against the Communis East. I believe that

4778
04:45:01,759 --> 04:45:05,279
says it all, Okay, I mean I I don't see

4779
04:45:05,279 --> 04:45:08,000
how anybody can rebut that, you know, or or how

4780
04:45:08,040 --> 04:45:10,200
it can be said that, like well, Miltch is not

4781
04:45:10,200 --> 04:45:12,159
in a position to know what the actual intentions of

4782
04:45:12,200 --> 04:45:16,599
Berlin or his fear were, or what the OKW actually

4783
04:45:16,639 --> 04:45:19,840
had in mind. I mean I but that is something

4784
04:45:19,919 --> 04:45:28,599
of a tangent. November nineteen thirty five, the British Airstaff

4785
04:45:28,680 --> 04:45:33,759
Convenes issued an internal and issued an internal memorandum stating

4786
04:45:33,840 --> 04:45:38,159
unequivocally that German forces and being was no more than

4787
04:45:38,200 --> 04:45:41,439
five hundred and ninety four aircraft. They did not single

4788
04:45:41,479 --> 04:45:45,840
out Churchill as the target of this rebuttal, but they

4789
04:45:45,919 --> 04:45:50,479
didn't make mention of irresponsibly inflated figures. Okay, named the

4790
04:45:50,479 --> 04:45:54,159
location here as obvious. Churchill wrote in response to this,

4791
04:45:54,279 --> 04:45:57,919
the Committee of Imperial Defense, which was the UK, did

4792
04:45:57,959 --> 04:46:01,639
not have a general staff like like the Wehrmacht did,

4793
04:46:02,360 --> 04:46:05,080
and you know in our equivalent in this country would

4794
04:46:05,080 --> 04:46:07,479
be the Joint chiefs of Staff the Committee of Imperial

4795
04:46:07,520 --> 04:46:11,159
Defense was basically that equivalent. Okay, So Churchill addresses the

4796
04:46:11,159 --> 04:46:14,919
Committee Imperial Defense, and he wrote, rather ominously, is my

4797
04:46:15,040 --> 04:46:17,439
sincere hope that this figure will not be made public,

4798
04:46:17,520 --> 04:46:20,759
as it would certainly give rise to misunderstandings and challenges.

4799
04:46:21,479 --> 04:46:24,959
So think about that, some guy who has become the

4800
04:46:25,000 --> 04:46:27,200
kind of errand boy a bunch of billionaires, I mean,

4801
04:46:27,279 --> 04:46:30,159
some of whom are frankly pretty dangerous people. They've they've

4802
04:46:30,159 --> 04:46:34,200
got ties to militant Zionism, they've got ties the armaments industry,

4803
04:46:34,759 --> 04:46:37,200
they've got ties to Wall Street. They've got this kind

4804
04:46:37,200 --> 04:46:40,439
of media bully pulpit that's just kind of coming into existence,

4805
04:46:40,720 --> 04:46:43,439
you know, on account of you know, movie house visual

4806
04:46:43,560 --> 04:46:47,880
media becoming kind of a dominant propaganda platform. They're writing you,

4807
04:46:48,240 --> 04:46:50,000
you know, they're they're writing the letters saying, you know,

4808
04:46:50,119 --> 04:46:52,759
we we really don't think you should publish certain data

4809
04:46:52,880 --> 04:46:57,880
that that would cause misunderstandings. I mean, you don't. You

4810
04:46:57,959 --> 04:47:00,759
don't need to be prone to conspi ritorial thinking or

4811
04:47:00,759 --> 04:47:05,240
a paranoiac to understand that there's the implied threat they're in. Okay,

4812
04:47:05,479 --> 04:47:08,560
I mean, uh, this is really incredible to me that

4813
04:47:09,080 --> 04:47:13,400
I that that any you know, but I mean the

4814
04:47:13,680 --> 04:47:15,959
the the UK, I mean kind of uh. And I'm

4815
04:47:16,000 --> 04:47:19,880
not trashing English people, but they're for all their reputation

4816
04:47:20,000 --> 04:47:23,040
for subtlety and and kind of and kind of nuanced

4817
04:47:23,040 --> 04:47:26,360
and irony, they they they they tend to speak rather

4818
04:47:26,439 --> 04:47:28,400
plainly when they plan to threaten people. And I think

4819
04:47:28,400 --> 04:47:30,080
this is in a way that would not be the

4820
04:47:30,159 --> 04:47:37,680
case in America. Opposite perception is that may be November

4821
04:47:37,759 --> 04:47:44,080
nine thirty five, UH is a seminal uh that that

4822
04:47:44,240 --> 04:47:46,439
that that that this is a seminal month and year

4823
04:47:46,479 --> 04:47:51,680
of Churchill. Because the Conservatives are swept into power. This

4824
04:47:51,880 --> 04:47:55,599
is no surprise to anybody. Baldwin becomes the prime minister.

4825
04:47:56,959 --> 04:48:01,240
He has no time for Churchill. He's committed to peace. UH.

4826
04:48:02,560 --> 04:48:07,759
He's uh, he's got no interest in in in in

4827
04:48:07,959 --> 04:48:10,759
uh in pandering to the arment's lobby. He's got no

4828
04:48:10,959 --> 04:48:15,040
interest in in villainizing Germany. Uh so as a substantiate

4829
04:48:15,119 --> 04:48:22,880
a general mobilization or a military build up. Okay the uh.

4830
04:48:25,240 --> 04:48:29,919
During this time, UH, as we mentioned Lord Rothmere, he

4831
04:48:30,080 --> 04:48:32,439
was still in connect with Adolf Hitler. I believe this

4832
04:48:32,560 --> 04:48:39,639
was his second to last correspondence with him. He wrote

4833
04:48:39,639 --> 04:48:46,680
to Adolf Hitler clandestinelye he said that if, if, if, if,

4834
04:48:46,759 --> 04:48:49,880
Hitler could broke her a peace between Italy, which was

4835
04:48:49,919 --> 04:48:54,119
then at warwith Ethiopia Abyssinian Empire, as it was then

4836
04:48:54,200 --> 04:49:01,919
known that that could bring beneficial diplomatic uh overtures from

4837
04:49:02,080 --> 04:49:06,639
the new government in London. I find Hitler's respond somewhat fascinating.

4838
04:49:06,840 --> 04:49:09,159
Let me bring it up here, but I'll read a

4839
04:49:09,240 --> 04:49:16,080
word for word. Hitler replied, for a hundred million years,

4840
04:49:16,159 --> 04:49:19,400
this earth has moved around the sun. During that long time,

4841
04:49:19,479 --> 04:49:21,159
it has always been filled with the struggle of human

4842
04:49:21,200 --> 04:49:24,799
beings for nourishment and later for dwellings and clothing, et cetera.

4843
04:49:25,560 --> 04:49:29,200
Countless influences have brought constant changes in the dispution of property.

4844
04:49:30,119 --> 04:49:32,439
And now, in a certain year, after millions of years

4845
04:49:32,479 --> 04:49:34,680
in which the earth has moved around the sun, an

4846
04:49:34,680 --> 04:49:37,639
American professor who claims the formation of a diplomatic league

4847
04:49:38,080 --> 04:49:41,520
of partly heterogeneous nations with completely opposite interests with a

4848
04:49:41,599 --> 04:49:44,439
view to banishing future change from the world can effectively

4849
04:49:44,520 --> 04:49:49,400
banish any change. And that sounds ominous, but that's also

4850
04:49:49,439 --> 04:49:52,880
a very Hitler statement. I mean, essentially, Hitler was saying

4851
04:49:52,919 --> 04:49:55,880
what's going to happen is going to happen. You know,

4852
04:49:56,400 --> 04:49:59,520
I have no reason not to. You know, see if

4853
04:49:59,520 --> 04:50:01,880
he'll do I'll be responded to peace overtures. But this

4854
04:50:01,919 --> 04:50:04,520
will not change anything. And you've all people should know

4855
04:50:04,599 --> 04:50:08,759
better considering you're you know, you're mister empire loyalist. That

4856
04:50:08,880 --> 04:50:11,119
seems like a very stilted statement from Hitler, but you

4857
04:50:11,119 --> 04:50:14,400
gotta understand the way that Brittish aristocrats wrote and the

4858
04:50:14,439 --> 04:50:17,840
way that Hitler, the kind of Habsburg German artist wrote

4859
04:50:19,599 --> 04:50:25,319
reading between the lines, this is a fascinating response. But

4860
04:50:25,439 --> 04:50:28,240
the point is that, uh, you know, it was not

4861
04:50:28,479 --> 04:50:31,400
just uh, it was not just kind of degenerate, eccentric

4862
04:50:31,520 --> 04:50:37,479
royals who who were making friendly overtures to directly to Berlin. Okay,

4863
04:50:37,560 --> 04:50:39,720
I mean it was there was there was an active

4864
04:50:39,720 --> 04:50:43,880
correspondence between Rothmere and uh a Rodmer himself was an

4865
04:50:43,959 --> 04:50:46,400
unusual person and he wasn't some outlier. Okay, I just

4866
04:50:46,479 --> 04:50:48,400
I wanted to drop that for context. Forgive me if

4867
04:50:48,439 --> 04:50:53,439
it was kind of a tangent. But what Hitler also

4868
04:50:53,560 --> 04:50:56,880
said was that uh, not to Rothmere, but when he

4869
04:50:56,959 --> 04:51:01,080
was asked, uh, I believe by Ribbon try because riybon

4870
04:51:01,119 --> 04:51:03,439
Trop always had Riybond Tropp's the foreign minister of the

4871
04:51:03,520 --> 04:51:07,759
Third Reich, the chief diplomat. When he asked, uh, you know,

4872
04:51:07,880 --> 04:51:11,279
he said, okay, now now with the you know, with

4873
04:51:11,599 --> 04:51:13,720
with what remains of League of Nations. That's why trying

4874
04:51:13,759 --> 04:51:17,080
to progress, I'm gonna peacewe in Italy and a Ethiopia.

4875
04:51:17,159 --> 04:51:18,639
You know, would now be the time to you know,

4876
04:51:18,759 --> 04:51:21,919
push for reclamator of colonies in Africa. Hitler said, I

4877
04:51:21,919 --> 04:51:23,639
don't want to get the slightest impression that I'm trying

4878
04:51:23,639 --> 04:51:27,959
to capitalize on a crisis, which is interesting to me

4879
04:51:28,040 --> 04:51:30,240
because Hitler's opposedly is the man who, you know, like

4880
04:51:30,400 --> 04:51:34,200
mister Kissinger said, never let a crisis go to waste. Now,

4881
04:51:34,240 --> 04:51:36,840
of course, Hitler didn't hesitate to act or strike when

4882
04:51:37,200 --> 04:51:40,439
he felt that circumstances were favoring the moment in military

4883
04:51:40,479 --> 04:51:43,479
political terms. But the point being, you know, if Hitler

4884
04:51:43,560 --> 04:51:45,159
was this guy who was held bent and weakening the

4885
04:51:45,200 --> 04:51:48,080
British Empire, like, why wasn't the Vermacht also in Ethiopia,

4886
04:51:48,240 --> 04:51:51,159
Why wasn't Hitler doing exagger rybin Trop said, saying like, hey,

4887
04:51:51,279 --> 04:51:53,119
we demand a stake in Africa, you know, I mean,

4888
04:51:53,759 --> 04:51:55,680
he could have been doing all these things and he wasn't.

4889
04:51:56,040 --> 04:51:57,599
He was basically saying he was. He was kind of

4890
04:51:57,680 --> 04:52:02,000
dropping these cryptic philosophical statements on Rawr. You're telling Ribbon traump, Hey,

4891
04:52:02,000 --> 04:52:03,759
I don't want to provoke a London. I mean, this

4892
04:52:03,880 --> 04:52:06,240
is not These are not the ants. These are not

4893
04:52:06,360 --> 04:52:08,240
the antics of a man who's trying to exploit a

4894
04:52:08,319 --> 04:52:10,360
weakness and we'd use as an enemy. It is not,

4895
04:52:11,759 --> 04:52:15,560
especially when considers that Baldwin, the Conservatives swept into power

4896
04:52:15,560 --> 04:52:19,040
with a pretty strong mandate. But Baldwin himself, a British

4897
04:52:19,040 --> 04:52:21,439
Prime Minister, is not like a US president. Okay, it's

4898
04:52:21,479 --> 04:52:24,720
not the man Baldwin. It's not like he. You know,

4899
04:52:24,799 --> 04:52:26,680
it's not like the voters were voting for Baldwin. They

4900
04:52:26,720 --> 04:52:30,639
were voting for the Tories. I mean. But moving on,

4901
04:52:32,840 --> 04:52:37,000
five goes in thirty six Churchill angles for the position

4902
04:52:37,080 --> 04:52:42,400
a Minister of Defense, which seems strange considering Baldwin's kind

4903
04:52:42,400 --> 04:52:46,759
of antivity to him. But the sponsorship that Churchill led

4904
04:52:46,799 --> 04:52:49,319
behind him, you know, people like Baruk, people like Corda.

4905
04:52:50,720 --> 04:52:54,720
He probably assumed that that the both the prestige and

4906
04:52:54,759 --> 04:52:57,639
the BLI like threat or menace of that would carry him.

4907
04:52:58,279 --> 04:53:02,759
He's unceremoniously passed over William C. Bullet, who will be

4908
04:53:02,840 --> 04:53:05,799
a familiar name to people who followed this series, you know,

4909
04:53:05,880 --> 04:53:08,479
the arch new dealer Rose Built, the Bastard of France,

4910
04:53:09,159 --> 04:53:12,720
a man who, for all practical purposes, was kinda chief

4911
04:53:12,799 --> 04:53:20,360
diplomat without formal title. Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah,

4912
04:53:20,400 --> 04:53:23,279
we're good. Okay, yeah, yeah, I gotta okay, yeah, I

4913
04:53:23,319 --> 04:53:27,919
said from d my single cut out. But Bullet wrote

4914
04:53:27,919 --> 04:53:30,439
to Churchill when he was in London when this was underway,

4915
04:53:30,720 --> 04:53:33,439
you know, uh, when the new Baldwin government was was

4916
04:53:33,479 --> 04:53:36,200
swept to power and Sheridan was continuing these kinds of

4917
04:53:36,919 --> 04:53:39,400
deranged and annex claiming that the Germans are going to

4918
04:53:39,520 --> 04:53:43,639
kill us all. He said that, he said the FDR quote.

4919
04:53:43,639 --> 04:53:47,279
Strangely enough, all the old anti Bolshevik fanatics like Winston

4920
04:53:47,360 --> 04:53:51,439
Churchill or trumpeting the Bolshevik thesis and are advocating an

4921
04:53:51,439 --> 04:53:55,439
intente with the Soviet Union, and he wasn't being funny,

4922
04:53:55,680 --> 04:54:01,279
you know at and uh, bear in mind in nineteen

4923
04:54:01,360 --> 04:54:04,240
twenty and you'll still find this among wolk types who

4924
04:54:04,240 --> 04:54:08,959
don't really understand that there their own kind of ideological heritage,

4925
04:54:09,479 --> 04:54:11,680
you know. Nineteen twenty, Churchill was the man was saying that,

4926
04:54:11,840 --> 04:54:13,319
you know, we've got to stand with Europe at all

4927
04:54:13,400 --> 04:54:16,279
costs against Bolshevism. He was showing up in Paris, you know,

4928
04:54:16,400 --> 04:54:18,720
proverbially waving a saber around, saying that he wanted to

4929
04:54:18,799 --> 04:54:20,759
lead an army against the you know, the Reds and

4930
04:54:21,599 --> 04:54:25,240
and all of this. And incidentally too, he was saying that,

4931
04:54:25,400 --> 04:54:27,680
you know, the Jews are the source of all of

4932
04:54:27,720 --> 04:54:30,240
this radicalism. You know, very very interesting. Now he's on

4933
04:54:30,279 --> 04:54:38,279
the payroll of American of American zionist millionaires. But what

4934
04:54:38,840 --> 04:54:43,639
energized Churchill's propaganda efforts probably more than anything, rightly or wrongly.

4935
04:54:43,759 --> 04:54:45,439
I'm not saying this was warrant that I'm saying this

4936
04:54:45,520 --> 04:54:49,080
in terms of public opinion. Marts ivy thirty six is

4937
04:54:49,119 --> 04:54:53,759
when the barabat under the Rhineland. Okay, this, really, more

4938
04:54:53,799 --> 04:54:56,720
than anything, was Hitler's big gamble. Okay, Hitler was not

4939
04:54:56,799 --> 04:55:00,560
really a military gambler. Politically, yes, militarily No, the subjects

4940
04:55:00,560 --> 04:55:06,000
for another show. But this was the real test of Versailles,

4941
04:55:06,040 --> 04:55:10,279
and what remained of the political will to enforce it okay.

4942
04:55:11,520 --> 04:55:14,639
And when the French did not act, when London did

4943
04:55:14,680 --> 04:55:20,080
not you know, stage of diplomatic cup and uh and

4944
04:55:20,200 --> 04:55:23,599
put pressure on Paris to do something or offer, if

4945
04:55:23,680 --> 04:55:28,119
not direct military, you know logistical and you know Maritimes

4946
04:55:28,119 --> 04:55:30,360
support for the effort. It was it was clear that

4947
04:55:30,479 --> 04:55:37,000
Versailles was dead. Okay. This energized Churchill to say, see, see,

4948
04:55:37,159 --> 04:55:39,400
I was right all along. You know, the Germans of

4949
04:55:39,439 --> 04:55:51,119
these made a dentists it uh it it uh and

4950
04:55:51,200 --> 04:55:53,159
and I mean that that that can't be overstated. Okay,

4951
04:55:53,200 --> 04:55:55,799
I mean again, this certainly not like so a seat

4952
04:55:55,840 --> 04:55:59,119
of war fever in in in in the in uh

4953
04:56:00,400 --> 04:56:03,560
on the London street or something. But it did, it did.

4954
04:56:03,799 --> 04:56:09,919
It did give people pause, particularly people who had frankly

4955
04:56:10,040 --> 04:56:12,720
something of a backwards looking view of strategic matters and

4956
04:56:12,840 --> 04:56:17,639
viewed France as the kind of key ally of the empire.

4957
04:56:17,880 --> 04:56:22,759
And for context too, at this time France was viewed

4958
04:56:22,759 --> 04:56:27,680
as the pre eminent European army and like land powers

4959
04:56:27,720 --> 04:56:30,400
and generally okay, like they were not. They were not

4960
04:56:30,479 --> 04:56:33,720
views of paper tiger, they were not views of state

4961
04:56:33,799 --> 04:56:36,360
that you know, due to political fracturing, like lack the

4962
04:56:36,439 --> 04:56:38,720
will to fight at general war with Germany. Okay, I

4963
04:56:38,799 --> 04:56:40,599
mean so even people who had a more cynical view

4964
04:56:40,639 --> 04:56:43,400
of politics and did not accept this kind of Germanophobic,

4965
04:56:44,159 --> 04:56:49,159
you know, kind of prosionists view that was just intraguically

4966
04:56:49,200 --> 04:56:52,279
hostile to Germany. It would have given them pause regardless

4967
04:56:52,279 --> 04:56:54,240
of it seemed as if, you know, war between France

4968
04:56:54,279 --> 04:56:55,919
and Germany was looming and a lot of them would

4969
04:56:55,919 --> 04:56:58,599
have been sympathetic to France. And that's what I meant.

4970
04:56:59,599 --> 04:57:07,159
But by uh, by the end of UH, by the

4971
04:57:07,240 --> 04:57:11,759
end of nine and thirty five, you know, as we

4972
04:57:11,840 --> 04:57:17,400
talked about UH, we talked about Churchle's financial difficulties and

4973
04:57:17,560 --> 04:57:21,799
UH the fact that he was quite literally rescued from

4974
04:57:21,840 --> 04:57:26,840
destitution by UH by Baruch and Corda by the end

4975
04:57:26,880 --> 04:57:31,680
of nineion thirty five. Another uh, another kind of figure

4976
04:57:31,759 --> 04:57:38,000
like Enard Churchill's orbit. Uh. Leonard Montefore he was president

4977
04:57:38,040 --> 04:57:41,479
of the Anglo Jewish Association, which was exactly what it

4978
04:57:41,599 --> 04:57:45,799
sounded like, but it wasn't. It wasn't just an ethnic

4979
04:57:45,919 --> 04:57:48,240
lobbying group, you know, like the ad L. I mean,

4980
04:57:48,279 --> 04:57:50,959
it was that too, but it's big thing was kind

4981
04:57:51,000 --> 04:57:57,560
of having like an international presence, and it was there

4982
04:57:57,680 --> 04:58:03,319
was an advocacy group for German Jews and German Jews.

4983
04:58:03,639 --> 04:58:08,279
I'm just speaking candidly here. There was a great deal

4984
04:58:08,319 --> 04:58:13,639
of enmity between German Jewelry and obviously the Third Right government,

4985
04:58:13,759 --> 04:58:16,799
but also many German people. Okay, I'm not saying that's

4986
04:58:16,840 --> 04:58:19,119
right or wrong. I'm not trying to just come on

4987
04:58:19,240 --> 04:58:22,040
here and see bad things about Jewish people. But this

4988
04:58:22,360 --> 04:58:26,759
is a fact, okay. And those sectarian conflict happens in Europe,

4989
04:58:26,840 --> 04:58:29,119
as it happens in America, as it happens anywhere on

4990
04:58:29,200 --> 04:58:34,799
this planet. The Jews were very the Jews of Germany

4991
04:58:34,880 --> 04:58:37,439
were very much at odds with the broader culture. And

4992
04:58:37,520 --> 04:58:39,720
people who claim like this was not the case or

4993
04:58:39,759 --> 04:58:42,880
deluting themselves, okay, because they were people who claim that

4994
04:58:43,080 --> 04:58:46,759
Hiller just confabulated this narrative and out of nowhere are

4995
04:58:46,919 --> 04:58:54,119
deluting themselves. So that is the context, Lord Leonard monte

4996
04:58:54,240 --> 04:58:58,560
Fore he facilitates the introduction, and not only does it

4997
04:58:58,560 --> 04:59:02,720
become another one of Churchill's monetary patrons. So let's say

4998
04:59:02,720 --> 04:59:04,599
it's the introduction at Churchill to what was called the

4999
04:59:04,680 --> 04:59:07,680
Anti Nazi Council. It was quite literally called the Anti

5000
04:59:07,799 --> 04:59:13,880
Nazi Council. Okay, what was the Anti Nazi Council? A

5001
04:59:13,959 --> 04:59:17,080
man named you can Spire or you can spire Okay,

5002
04:59:17,599 --> 04:59:20,680
he was the chief financer of it. He was for

5003
04:59:20,759 --> 04:59:26,560
all practical purpose as a Jewish refugee. In later years, interestingly,

5004
04:59:26,720 --> 04:59:31,319
spire uh. He published an autobiography and a testimonial basically

5005
04:59:31,400 --> 04:59:33,599
of the inter war years. This is after the Second

5006
04:59:33,599 --> 04:59:36,959
World War, okay, spire. Basically he was writing this kind

5007
04:59:36,959 --> 04:59:40,279
of testimonial. This is my life, this is how I founded,

5008
04:59:40,479 --> 04:59:43,319
you know, as financier, you know, the Anti Nazi League,

5009
04:59:43,919 --> 04:59:45,799
which became the focus. And we'll get into what the

5010
04:59:45,840 --> 04:59:48,599
focus was in a minute, you know. And he he

5011
04:59:48,759 --> 04:59:51,240
made much of the fact thinking he was praising him, like, oh,

5012
04:59:51,279 --> 04:59:53,560
and you know, I brought mister Churchill into the indo

5013
04:59:53,599 --> 04:59:56,799
our service. Essentially, Churchill begged him not to publish it,

5014
04:59:57,159 --> 04:59:59,240
and according to some viable Churchill threatened to suit a

5015
04:59:59,279 --> 05:00:01,360
prevent it being PubL I don't know if that second

5016
05:00:01,880 --> 05:00:06,479
allegation is true of the further fact jacket, but it

5017
05:00:06,599 --> 05:00:11,560
is documented that Churchill zealously oppose the publication of this testimonial.

5018
05:00:12,000 --> 05:00:15,479
And that's very very interesting, you know, like why if

5019
05:00:15,880 --> 05:00:17,919
if Churchy was so you know, this man who was

5020
05:00:17,959 --> 05:00:20,040
just so committed in his in his opinions, and they

5021
05:00:20,720 --> 05:00:22,840
you know, they they they were so grounded and right,

5022
05:00:22,919 --> 05:00:24,799
and you know, against the grain of public opinion, like

5023
05:00:24,799 --> 05:00:27,360
why would he care? You know, it's it's very very interesting.

5024
05:00:28,040 --> 05:00:31,720
But uh, the Ani Nazi Council, it did not actually

5025
05:00:31,759 --> 05:00:36,520
originate in uh in uh in London society circles. It

5026
05:00:36,599 --> 05:00:42,919
originated in New York City. Spire again financed it, you know,

5027
05:00:43,040 --> 05:00:45,439
did a lot of the kind of legwork brought people

5028
05:00:45,520 --> 05:00:49,520
into its orbit. But uh, a New York City attorney

5029
05:00:49,599 --> 05:00:53,479
named Samuel Intermeyer. He was chairman of the World Jewish

5030
05:00:53,520 --> 05:00:57,479
Economic Federation, which uh, you know it was again I

5031
05:00:57,520 --> 05:00:59,720
mean it was an ethno sectarian advocacy group, but kind

5032
05:00:59,759 --> 05:01:03,240
of more business oriented, more commerce oriented, less of a

5033
05:01:03,360 --> 05:01:07,000
focus on you know, kind of traditional Ethno political lobbying,

5034
05:01:07,040 --> 05:01:09,360
although that was also a strong interest of it. But

5035
05:01:09,520 --> 05:01:13,680
which Amyer incorporated it. And uh, what put the World

5036
05:01:13,759 --> 05:01:17,119
Jewish Economic Federation on the map is that the Jewish

5037
05:01:17,159 --> 05:01:20,639
Economic Federation, the World Jewish Economic Federation, they organized a

5038
05:01:20,680 --> 05:01:24,520
trade boycott on German goods and manufacturers upon the uh,

5039
05:01:25,119 --> 05:01:29,680
the national socials as sendency to governments and now you're

5040
05:01:29,720 --> 05:01:36,080
thirty four. They approached a man named Sir Walter Citrine.

5041
05:01:36,720 --> 05:01:39,479
He was chairman of the Trades Union Congress. Okay, which

5042
05:01:39,520 --> 05:01:43,759
seems an odd alliance. Okay, These kinds of these kinds

5043
05:01:43,759 --> 05:01:46,080
of ethnic lobbyist type guys you know, who were high

5044
05:01:46,119 --> 05:01:49,400
flying Wall Street attorneys in America, you know, in kind

5045
05:01:49,439 --> 05:01:52,840
of big shot London financiers, you know, very very capitalistory

5046
05:01:52,880 --> 05:01:55,599
and the people, you know, they address this trades union guy,

5047
05:01:55,840 --> 05:01:58,080
you know, Citrin, who's got a you know, reputation for

5048
05:01:58,200 --> 05:02:03,200
being you know, red. But uh, interestingly, they they they

5049
05:02:03,439 --> 05:02:06,680
they they incorporate together the Trades Union Congress becomes one

5050
05:02:06,720 --> 05:02:09,479
with the World Jewish Economic Federation. And what do they

5051
05:02:09,520 --> 05:02:13,639
incorporate is they quote non sectarian, anti Nazi Council for

5052
05:02:13,759 --> 05:02:17,439
Human Rights. That's a mouthful of nonsense if I've ever

5053
05:02:17,520 --> 05:02:17,759
heard it.

5054
05:02:21,319 --> 05:02:24,040
Speaker 1: When you were when you were saying about capitalists getting

5055
05:02:24,040 --> 05:02:26,680
together with like the trade unionists and everything, Yes, there

5056
05:02:26,840 --> 05:02:32,000
anyone anyone who studied what happened with election laws up

5057
05:02:32,040 --> 05:02:34,840
to the twenty twenty election will recognize that.

5058
05:02:35,200 --> 05:02:37,880
Speaker 2: Oh definitely, definitely I was being halfway fastacious, But I

5059
05:02:37,919 --> 05:02:39,599
mean for people who don't know, like I'm not making

5060
05:02:39,680 --> 05:02:41,200
fun of people don't know the history of this, but

5061
05:02:41,240 --> 05:02:43,360
it's it's on its face it seems bizarre if one

5062
05:02:43,400 --> 05:02:45,439
doesn't understand the kind of intrigues and the stimp of

5063
05:02:45,479 --> 05:02:49,240
these the people involved. But yeah, the the World Jewish

5064
05:02:49,279 --> 05:02:54,240
Economic Federation under Sam Untermeyer and you know, bankrolled by

5065
05:02:54,319 --> 05:02:58,159
you know, London millionaires, and it incorporates with the Trade Union,

5066
05:02:58,360 --> 05:03:02,040
the Trades Union Congress as the non sectarian anti Nazi

5067
05:03:02,159 --> 05:03:07,080
Council for what for Human Rights? So what we have

5068
05:03:07,240 --> 05:03:09,599
here is we have a we have what amounts to

5069
05:03:09,880 --> 05:03:17,159
it's one half anti defamation League type ethno nationalist lobbying organization,

5070
05:03:18,080 --> 05:03:21,759
one half kind of foreign policy pressure group to make

5071
05:03:21,880 --> 05:03:25,240
war on Germany. And it's this odd constellation a kind

5072
05:03:25,279 --> 05:03:30,400
of crazy Zionist biggots, Jewish businessmen who yeah, definitely have

5073
05:03:30,479 --> 05:03:32,599
Zionis sympathies, but also are like you know, looking to

5074
05:03:32,639 --> 05:03:37,000
get paid out now communists, a handful of disgruninled to

5075
05:03:37,439 --> 05:03:41,200
disgruntled Tories, just like regular world Englishmen who hate the

5076
05:03:41,360 --> 05:03:44,159
Prime Minister Baldwin and are willing to basically you know,

5077
05:03:44,479 --> 05:03:46,919
burn down anything to stick at to Baldwin. Crazy as

5078
05:03:46,919 --> 05:03:50,080
that seems uh. You know, Wall Street financi yeers are

5079
05:03:50,119 --> 05:03:52,479
in this circle of all stripes, a lot of a

5080
05:03:52,520 --> 05:03:56,360
lot of Jewish individuals among them, but not exclusively. And

5081
05:03:56,439 --> 05:03:59,599
then you got these regular World War profiteers, industrialists, you know,

5082
05:03:59,639 --> 05:04:02,919
who were who who who Old Ramsey McDonald. It's stuck

5083
05:04:02,959 --> 05:04:05,479
it to with disarmaments, you know. And they don't they

5084
05:04:05,520 --> 05:04:07,560
don't care who's footing the bill. They don't care if

5085
05:04:07,599 --> 05:04:09,720
it's Zionists, they don't care if it's Tories, they don't

5086
05:04:09,759 --> 05:04:13,840
care if it's Piggy Winston Churchill and another crusade. All

5087
05:04:13,880 --> 05:04:16,240
they know is that we're all gonna get rich, you know.

5088
05:04:16,360 --> 05:04:18,279
And we and times have been bleak for us for

5089
05:04:18,319 --> 05:04:20,360
the last twenty years. We had we've had a succession

5090
05:04:20,439 --> 05:04:25,479
of hostile uh of hostile prime ministers. They didn't give

5091
05:04:25,560 --> 05:04:27,000
us what we want. And even the ones who had

5092
05:04:27,080 --> 05:04:30,240
more Bellicoast posture towards Berlin said, there's just not the

5093
05:04:30,279 --> 05:04:37,360
money you're to give you what you want. Now. Interestingly,

5094
05:04:38,680 --> 05:04:44,319
as this anti non sectary and anti Nazi council becomes

5095
05:04:44,639 --> 05:04:46,959
more and more bounded with mister Churchill, and Churchill becomes

5096
05:04:47,000 --> 05:04:49,000
more and more vocal, and it becomes more and more

5097
05:04:49,040 --> 05:04:52,000
publicly associated with you know a lot of these kind

5098
05:04:52,040 --> 05:04:58,040
of significant figures in the Jewish community of powerful you know, pedigree,

5099
05:04:59,400 --> 05:05:02,560
the Board of Jewish Deputies, which was the oldest Zionist

5100
05:05:02,959 --> 05:05:06,759
NGO basically in the world. Okay, they got a little

5101
05:05:06,759 --> 05:05:09,759
bit nervous, you know, and they're like, look, we should

5102
05:05:09,799 --> 05:05:13,639
probably avoid this kind of we should probably avoid this

5103
05:05:13,720 --> 05:05:19,119
kind of overly aggressive lobbying, you know, because it looks unseemly.

5104
05:05:23,360 --> 05:05:26,639
Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was kind of the American counterpart,

5105
05:05:27,040 --> 05:05:30,080
he basically just told these people like, you're out of it.

5106
05:05:30,240 --> 05:05:32,040
You're really gonna go. You're either gonna go along with

5107
05:05:32,119 --> 05:05:34,439
this and you're gonna go along with our strategy, or

5108
05:05:34,439 --> 05:05:36,520
we're gonna destroy you. You know, We're gonna say, if

5109
05:05:36,520 --> 05:05:38,520
you have your funding, we're gonna discredit you in media.

5110
05:05:38,680 --> 05:05:40,880
You're you're just gonna be nothing. You're gonna cease to exist.

5111
05:05:41,840 --> 05:05:45,040
He founds the rival World Jewish Congress based in Geneva.

5112
05:05:47,279 --> 05:05:49,720
And what precedes is all these elements that had been

5113
05:05:49,720 --> 05:05:52,319
brought into the this non security nan and Nanti Council,

5114
05:05:53,279 --> 05:05:56,680
you know, basically closed ranks uh against the Board of

5115
05:05:56,720 --> 05:05:59,119
Jewish deputies and it's holdouts, okay, and and basically just

5116
05:05:59,200 --> 05:06:03,799
crushed like any opposition within their own house ruthlessly okay.

5117
05:06:05,840 --> 05:06:09,000
And what followed this was highly conspiratorial. Okay. So basically,

5118
05:06:09,000 --> 05:06:10,959
now we have a quorum of all these elements with

5119
05:06:11,119 --> 05:06:13,759
it decided, and with a decided to the zionis bent politically.

5120
05:06:16,360 --> 05:06:20,000
Mister Citrine, the trade union leader, the trade union congress leader,

5121
05:06:21,880 --> 05:06:26,159
he's seen, he's documented to be dining regularly with representatives

5122
05:06:26,240 --> 05:06:31,759
both of the UH, the the now cowed UH or

5123
05:06:31,840 --> 05:06:35,639
the or the now dominant world Jewish Congress. He's seen

5124
05:06:35,680 --> 05:06:38,560
in their company at the same time of a chairman

5125
05:06:38,599 --> 05:06:42,759
of major industrial and chemical combines, which is interesting because

5126
05:06:42,759 --> 05:06:44,799
a lot of these people they were looking forward to

5127
05:06:44,799 --> 05:06:47,240
the next war thinking that chemical munitions were gonna be

5128
05:06:47,279 --> 05:06:50,200
a thing, but they weren't in terms of battlefield utility.

5129
05:06:50,720 --> 05:06:54,639
But as well as you know, weapons manufacturers, representatives of

5130
05:06:54,720 --> 05:06:59,000
munitions combines, you know, industrial lobbyists. You know, it's like

5131
05:06:59,159 --> 05:07:01,040
like literally can't like make this stuff up. It's like

5132
05:07:01,119 --> 05:07:03,560
something you're seeing like some quirky superhero movie of like

5133
05:07:03,599 --> 05:07:05,919
all these evil guys at the table. You know, here's

5134
05:07:05,959 --> 05:07:09,319
some mafiosi here's the mayor, here's the three congressman. I'm

5135
05:07:09,319 --> 05:07:11,040
not trying to be silly, but this is like literally

5136
05:07:11,159 --> 05:07:14,200
what this literally goes underway, you know, I mean it's

5137
05:07:14,759 --> 05:07:16,759
it's it seems like something out of a movie or

5138
05:07:17,599 --> 05:07:22,119
or something kind of cheap pamphlet commissioned by harr Gebbels

5139
05:07:22,200 --> 05:07:25,000
to try and make British policy look like it had

5140
05:07:25,040 --> 05:07:27,560
been co opted entirely by Jewish interest or something. But

5141
05:07:27,639 --> 05:07:30,840
this is in fact what happened, you know, after UH,

5142
05:07:32,439 --> 05:07:40,040
even after the UH, even after after and after the

5143
05:07:40,159 --> 05:07:48,560
Rhineland UH occupation. Interestingly, the UH but but but Congress,

5144
05:07:48,720 --> 05:07:52,799
with its with its charter, the Labor Party still flatly

5145
05:07:52,840 --> 05:07:55,400
opposedery armament. They said, we're not gonna be militarize, you know,

5146
05:07:55,479 --> 05:07:58,000
We're not. We're not gonna strike at Belago's posture against Germany.

5147
05:07:58,040 --> 05:08:02,479
We're not gonna seek the term and through through a

5148
05:08:02,759 --> 05:08:09,919
globilization of arms. Basically, okay, so UH, the UH, the

5149
05:08:10,040 --> 05:08:13,680
Anti Nazi Council, which is now increasingly called the focus

5150
05:08:15,000 --> 05:08:17,680
in their communications to one another, which could have which

5151
05:08:17,720 --> 05:08:21,159
could be intercepted. Obviously, the youphanism they utilized was the focus.

5152
05:08:22,080 --> 05:08:26,159
And so when you run across in Churchill's own writings

5153
05:08:26,200 --> 05:08:28,639
or if you run across and documentary evidence carelled. But

5154
05:08:28,720 --> 05:08:31,479
people like David Irving and like Thomas Fleming references to

5155
05:08:31,680 --> 05:08:36,439
the Focus. This is what they're talking about, and later

5156
05:08:36,880 --> 05:08:41,599
the Anti Nazi Congress of Human Rights. You know, it

5157
05:08:41,720 --> 05:08:44,919
was later formally incorporated as the Focus, but at this

5158
05:08:45,040 --> 05:08:49,560
point it was still an unofficial moniker. But when the

5159
05:08:49,639 --> 05:08:52,959
Labor Party in the wake of the Ryanland occupation and

5160
05:08:53,240 --> 05:08:56,639
Flatley announces that, you know, even as the opposition, where

5161
05:08:56,639 --> 05:09:00,680
you're not, you know, we're not going to criticize Baldwin's

5162
05:09:01,240 --> 05:09:06,639
unwillingness to rearm. It's just not on the table. The

5163
05:09:06,720 --> 05:09:11,799
Focus convenes a meeting organized by Satrine man named Henry

5164
05:09:11,840 --> 05:09:16,680
Wickham Steed with the keynote speaker. Steed had been on

5165
05:09:16,759 --> 05:09:19,759
the payroll of the Prague governments, which even in the

5166
05:09:19,840 --> 05:09:22,319
best of times, had a tenuous grip on power owing

5167
05:09:22,360 --> 05:09:29,840
to the ethnic and political situation. Steed declared that he

5168
05:09:29,959 --> 05:09:33,439
was going to take this war chest, which had to

5169
05:09:33,479 --> 05:09:35,880
be substantial because the year nineteen twenty three ninety twenty

5170
05:09:35,880 --> 05:09:38,720
four a loan even paid the equivalent of between two

5171
05:09:38,759 --> 05:09:41,200
hundred and fifty thousand and five hundred thousand pounds sterling

5172
05:09:41,279 --> 05:09:45,479
by Prague for political activity, so jumping out in nineteen

5173
05:09:45,479 --> 05:09:47,799
thirty six, if he was still being paid anything like that,

5174
05:09:48,599 --> 05:09:50,639
he had a huge amount of money at his disposal.

5175
05:09:51,959 --> 05:09:56,279
At this meeting, it's decided that Steed, utilizing his contacts

5176
05:09:56,560 --> 05:10:02,040
diplomatic and otherwise his to approach potentially what he called

5177
05:10:02,200 --> 05:10:06,360
potentially sympathetic politician, not just in a labor party, when

5178
05:10:06,400 --> 05:10:09,080
they could serve in liberal parties as well, and see

5179
05:10:09,080 --> 05:10:13,520
if he can change their mind about the rearmament, you know,

5180
05:10:13,560 --> 05:10:19,200
which is obviously youth misn't for buying legislation. Okay, As

5181
05:10:19,240 --> 05:10:23,119
all this is underway, Baldwin, the Prime Minister, realizes he's

5182
05:10:23,159 --> 05:10:27,439
a problem. Okay, the man wasn't a fool, and he

5183
05:10:27,560 --> 05:10:31,520
realized that Churchill was in real danger of garnering some

5184
05:10:31,680 --> 05:10:34,639
kind of quar um against him and that amounted to

5185
05:10:34,680 --> 05:10:40,279
a war party. Okay. Baldwin decides is gonna try and

5186
05:10:40,319 --> 05:10:44,319
neutralize Churchill by granting him what's called a deputation that's

5187
05:10:44,400 --> 05:10:47,639
essentially a minister without portfolio. What would be considered that

5188
05:10:47,799 --> 05:10:51,200
on the continent, but in the British government, which seems

5189
05:10:51,240 --> 05:10:53,000
kind of byzantine even to me, and I know something

5190
05:10:53,040 --> 05:10:57,959
about it. It's basically one part minister without portfolio, one

5191
05:10:58,000 --> 05:11:04,560
part unofficial advisor. Okay, so Churchill now has access to

5192
05:11:04,639 --> 05:11:07,799
bald when when he wants. Like I said, I believe,

5193
05:11:08,880 --> 05:11:11,599
and I realize every story and speculates, but I think

5194
05:11:11,639 --> 05:11:15,000
this is pretty clear. I believe Baldwin had two things

5195
05:11:15,040 --> 05:11:18,840
in mind. I believe that would neutralize Churchill's vanity because oh,

5196
05:11:18,919 --> 05:11:22,159
now you know he's got a role in government. But

5197
05:11:22,319 --> 05:11:26,919
it also Churchill couldn't keep his mouth shut. Okay, he

5198
05:11:27,080 --> 05:11:30,240
wasn't just a bragger, but he was an alcoholic and

5199
05:11:30,840 --> 05:11:33,479
he he just said things that he should not have said,

5200
05:11:34,479 --> 05:11:37,080
you know, both in terms of insulting people and in

5201
05:11:37,200 --> 05:11:39,080
terms of it's kind of disclosing what he was doing.

5202
05:11:40,000 --> 05:11:43,560
And Baldwin knew that because he knew the man very well. So,

5203
05:11:43,799 --> 05:11:46,000
mister Churchill's plotting against you, it's kind of better to

5204
05:11:46,040 --> 05:11:48,319
have him coming by your office and slugging down, you know,

5205
05:11:48,479 --> 05:11:50,520
jin and kind of talking to you about what's on

5206
05:11:50,560 --> 05:11:52,799
his mind than to have him out doing god knows

5207
05:11:52,880 --> 05:11:56,520
what I mean. Silly as that sounds, it's not a joke.

5208
05:11:57,240 --> 05:11:58,880
I mean, it's it's a real thing, you know, I

5209
05:11:58,959 --> 05:12:01,840
mean it kind of in old times. But Churchill sort

5210
05:12:01,840 --> 05:12:04,680
of an almost comical example of a man who you

5211
05:12:04,840 --> 05:12:09,119
subject to that sort of a who you netral attempt

5212
05:12:09,119 --> 05:12:14,520
to neutralize in that way. Okay. Right at this time

5213
05:12:14,639 --> 05:12:17,840
is when the a n C you know, the Anti

5214
05:12:17,959 --> 05:12:20,959
Nazi Council for Human Rights, it begins formally referring to

5215
05:12:21,000 --> 05:12:24,400
itself as the Focus. Churl says, look, we we can't

5216
05:12:24,400 --> 05:12:27,159
have people thinking that, you know, we're a pressure group. Okay,

5217
05:12:28,279 --> 05:12:31,400
And this made sense because Churchill did have good Machiavillian instincts,

5218
05:12:32,040 --> 05:12:34,240
you know it. Not to be crude about it, but

5219
05:12:34,319 --> 05:12:36,400
he realized, I can't be seen about town hanging around

5220
05:12:36,400 --> 05:12:40,959
a bunch of rich Jews calling themselves the Anti Nazi Congress. Okay. Meanwhile,

5221
05:12:40,959 --> 05:12:43,240
I'm you know, ducking into mister Baldwin's office and telling

5222
05:12:43,319 --> 05:12:47,799
him his business. Okay, this, this would not be a

5223
05:12:47,880 --> 05:12:52,240
good thing. So from then on, uh, what's now? The

5224
05:12:52,319 --> 05:12:55,400
Focus becomes exponentially more powerful, but in some ways more profile.

5225
05:12:55,799 --> 05:13:00,200
There's no more of these lunchtime meetings between you know, uh,

5226
05:13:00,720 --> 05:13:04,159
you know, millionaire industrialists and chemical concerns and armaments factories

5227
05:13:04,240 --> 05:13:07,159
who you know, are meeting with you know, uh, you know,

5228
05:13:07,319 --> 05:13:09,439
some New York City rabbi. He's also you know, got

5229
05:13:09,479 --> 05:13:11,279
his hands in Wall Street and all whom, you know,

5230
05:13:11,360 --> 05:13:13,959
are talking about how we can pressure the Baldwin government

5231
05:13:14,000 --> 05:13:16,759
to really really you know, sock into Germany. That's not

5232
05:13:16,840 --> 05:13:20,720
gonna happen anymore because now they're getting their way and

5233
05:13:21,000 --> 05:13:27,200
uh congruous with this wickham Steed, he sets up a

5234
05:13:27,279 --> 05:13:29,360
what's called a research section or what they called a

5235
05:13:29,439 --> 05:13:35,159
research section for the Focus. Now what does that mean

5236
05:13:35,240 --> 05:13:38,479
in practical terms, Well, that meant dissemination of propaganda and

5237
05:13:38,560 --> 05:13:41,279
men doing things like formally disseminating you know, facts and

5238
05:13:41,360 --> 05:13:44,439
figures on Nazi re armament to the press. You know,

5239
05:13:44,520 --> 05:13:48,400
it meant declaring from undisclosed sources, you know, intelligence sources.

5240
05:13:48,599 --> 05:13:51,439
Oh these are the this is Germany's intention or you know,

5241
05:13:51,880 --> 05:13:53,919
these are our forces and being versus the Germans, and

5242
05:13:54,000 --> 05:13:56,240
you know this is our aircraft gap. You know, things

5243
05:13:56,319 --> 05:14:02,759
like this. Basically a propaganda office. Okay. Now, Ah Richards,

5244
05:14:03,000 --> 05:14:07,159
who was I don't believe he was Jewish, but he

5245
05:14:07,200 --> 05:14:09,319
was kind of the frontman for the what it for,

5246
05:14:09,479 --> 05:14:12,880
the Anti Nazi Congress going back some years and he

5247
05:14:12,959 --> 05:14:16,159
was the organizing secretary, he was the money man. So

5248
05:14:16,279 --> 05:14:18,880
his wickham Steed kind of proudly announces, I'm setting up

5249
05:14:18,880 --> 05:14:22,479
the research section. Richards says, you know, without really thinking

5250
05:14:22,720 --> 05:14:25,240
where's the money going to come from? From this, Churchill

5251
05:14:25,279 --> 05:14:29,840
suddenly became visibly livid and Richard's quickly was kind of

5252
05:14:29,880 --> 05:14:33,000
ushered out of the room, and according to him in

5253
05:14:33,080 --> 05:14:35,799
later years, was instructed, Look, you are never to inquire

5254
05:14:35,840 --> 05:14:38,240
about funding and you are never to insult mister Churchill

5255
05:14:38,319 --> 05:14:41,119
like that again, okay, especially not in the presence of witnesses.

5256
05:14:41,680 --> 05:14:44,639
All you need to know is that rest assured all

5257
05:14:44,680 --> 05:14:47,080
expenses have been taken care of, and if any of

5258
05:14:47,159 --> 05:14:50,520
our benefactors ask, you tell them that it's not a problem, okay,

5259
05:14:50,639 --> 05:14:52,639
that this will be paid for. All We needed them

5260
05:14:52,680 --> 05:14:54,919
to contribute their time and efforts then to basically, you know,

5261
05:14:55,360 --> 05:14:58,439
carry out a requests. Whether that's arranging meetings for who

5262
05:14:58,439 --> 05:15:00,840
we need to meet with, you know, whether that's you know,

5263
05:15:01,319 --> 05:15:05,159
issuing statements to the newspaper outlets that they're familiar with

5264
05:15:05,279 --> 05:15:07,439
and friendly with, you know, or whether it's seeking me

5265
05:15:07,439 --> 05:15:09,400
out friends across the Atlantic, you know, who might be

5266
05:15:09,439 --> 05:15:13,000
sympathetic to our plight, but you never ever raise money,

5267
05:15:13,040 --> 05:15:15,560
and you never ever addressed mister Churchill directly on such matters.

5268
05:15:16,360 --> 05:15:19,720
And that's very interesting too, because basically, by this point,

5269
05:15:19,880 --> 05:15:22,240
which would come as no surprise considering the resumes of

5270
05:15:22,240 --> 05:15:26,040
the men who constituted it, church was the frontman of

5271
05:15:26,080 --> 05:15:29,520
an organization that basically had a bottomless worships. Okay, within reason,

5272
05:15:29,880 --> 05:15:32,840
but for what it needed to accomplish. You can buy

5273
05:15:32,840 --> 05:15:35,240
a lot of legislation for tens of millions of dollars

5274
05:15:35,319 --> 05:15:39,159
in nineteen thirty six, Okay, I mean that's that's and

5275
05:15:39,240 --> 05:15:42,319
people misunderstand. I mean the days these days where we

5276
05:15:42,400 --> 05:15:44,919
talk in terms of billions of dollars, and you know,

5277
05:15:44,959 --> 05:15:47,400
we talk about guys like Elon Musk, you know, throwing around,

5278
05:15:47,479 --> 05:15:49,599
you know, tens of billions of dollars, like we lose

5279
05:15:49,639 --> 05:15:52,919
sight of this. But you know, if you had when

5280
05:15:52,959 --> 05:15:55,520
the average person was making a few hundred dollars a year,

5281
05:15:56,200 --> 05:15:58,240
I mean, if you were talking about tens of millions

5282
05:15:58,279 --> 05:16:00,159
of dollars, you might as well have been talking talking

5283
05:16:00,159 --> 05:16:02,159
about all the money on this planet. I mean, that

5284
05:16:02,240 --> 05:16:04,680
was an obscene amount of money, you know, I mean

5285
05:16:04,720 --> 05:16:09,119
it was not it was it was not any small thing, okay,

5286
05:16:09,240 --> 05:16:12,759
I mean, and nothing even came close and to that

5287
05:16:14,080 --> 05:16:19,279
to demonstrate that the funds for the research group under

5288
05:16:19,360 --> 05:16:21,959
speed were in fact they were arranged by the board

5289
05:16:22,119 --> 05:16:24,959
by the Board of Board of Deputies of British Jews.

5290
05:16:26,439 --> 05:16:28,639
The vice president of the Board of Deputy Board of

5291
05:16:28,720 --> 05:16:31,479
Deputies of British Jews was a man named Sir Robert

5292
05:16:31,560 --> 05:16:35,840
Whaley Cohen, who was Sir Robert Whaley Cohen right, whiley

5293
05:16:35,919 --> 05:16:38,080
Cohen was the chairman of Shell you know Shell where

5294
05:16:38,080 --> 05:16:40,759
you get your gash, formerly known as the British Shell. Okay,

5295
05:16:40,880 --> 05:16:46,439
that Shell. At a meeting of Cohen's home July twenty second,

5296
05:16:48,000 --> 05:16:54,799
he donated fifty thousand pounds sterling for any expenses needed

5297
05:16:54,840 --> 05:16:58,080
by the focus. The rest of the membership of the

5298
05:16:58,119 --> 05:17:01,080
Board of Deputies of British Jews they cut checks for

5299
05:17:01,159 --> 05:17:06,799
twenty five thousand pounds sterling and they pledged to match

5300
05:17:06,919 --> 05:17:12,840
that anytime was needed. Okay, Now for context, to give

5301
05:17:12,959 --> 05:17:15,759
kind of life to what I just said. This was

5302
05:17:15,919 --> 05:17:19,080
five times the budget of the British Council. The British

5303
05:17:19,119 --> 05:17:23,840
Council was the top foreign policy lobbying organization in the

5304
05:17:23,840 --> 05:17:27,200
British Empire. It was bankrolled literally by the Royal family.

5305
05:17:27,360 --> 05:17:30,520
The British Council was okay, it was kind of like

5306
05:17:30,599 --> 05:17:32,040
the Council on It was kind of like the Council

5307
05:17:32,080 --> 05:17:35,880
on Foreign Relations of the British Empire. Okay, the focus

5308
05:17:36,479 --> 05:17:38,959
they had five times their budget. Let's think about that

5309
05:17:39,080 --> 05:17:41,080
for a minute. So basically, there was there was no

5310
05:17:41,240 --> 05:17:45,360
pressure group, no lobbying group, no organic government, no kind

5311
05:17:45,400 --> 05:17:48,279
of tentacle of the Royal family that that could that

5312
05:17:48,400 --> 05:17:53,080
could affect your England's policy that came anywhere close to

5313
05:17:54,119 --> 05:17:59,200
this NGO that Churchill had behind him, like nothing probably

5314
05:17:59,240 --> 05:18:00,880
on this planet, the other than like the US War

5315
05:18:01,000 --> 05:18:06,479
Department and the kind of several industrial concerns that constituted that.

5316
05:18:07,119 --> 05:18:08,720
I mean, if that, if we could even you know,

5317
05:18:09,000 --> 05:18:12,560
make comparison, because obviously they hadn't even mobilized for war yet.

5318
05:18:12,639 --> 05:18:14,439
So I'm just trying to give an idea of like

5319
05:18:14,720 --> 05:18:17,759
the kind of bottomless nature of this budget, you know,

5320
05:18:17,840 --> 05:18:24,319
and without exaggeration, it was that vast. But whiley while

5321
05:18:24,360 --> 05:18:29,240
the Waley Cohen's patronage came at a price, what was

5322
05:18:29,319 --> 05:18:33,840
that price? He said he wanted to have authority, final authority,

5323
05:18:34,040 --> 05:18:38,000
over all, all, all all official statements on policy by

5324
05:18:38,040 --> 05:18:41,400
the Focus. Okay, he wanted the opportunity to edit or

5325
05:18:41,520 --> 05:18:45,919
sense or any policy statements anything Churchill took to Baldwin,

5326
05:18:47,119 --> 05:18:50,880
any declaration within the Focus itself not for public assumption.

5327
05:18:51,040 --> 05:18:54,040
That was considered to be, you know, an essential uh

5328
05:18:55,080 --> 05:18:59,360
policy ambition. He was the final authority on that, okay,

5329
05:19:00,639 --> 05:19:04,080
he was. He even redacted later on, he'd redact entire

5330
05:19:04,159 --> 05:19:06,639
section to Church's speeches because he didn't like the way

5331
05:19:06,680 --> 05:19:15,119
it read. Now, what was his uh beyond being a

5332
05:19:15,159 --> 05:19:17,240
control freaker or just wanted to know where his money

5333
05:19:17,360 --> 05:19:22,000
was going? Like? What was mister Cohen's rationale? Cohen said

5334
05:19:22,080 --> 05:19:25,439
that he said at base, he said, the policy the

5335
05:19:25,520 --> 05:19:27,479
focus has to be to refute the claim that there

5336
05:19:27,520 --> 05:19:30,759
were any redeemable aspects of the German Third Reich and

5337
05:19:30,840 --> 05:19:33,479
its regime, and that there were any redeemable aspects of

5338
05:19:33,520 --> 05:19:36,200
Adolf Hitler, and that there was any legitimacy to any

5339
05:19:36,319 --> 05:19:41,360
policy they pursued or any claim they issued. It kind

5340
05:19:41,360 --> 05:19:43,840
of sounds like the American orientation towards Putin's Russia, today,

5341
05:19:43,880 --> 05:19:52,520
doesn't it. That's very interesting, But I uh, I think

5342
05:19:52,639 --> 05:19:55,000
I've kind of dropped a lot here.

5343
05:19:57,720 --> 05:20:01,479
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, literally, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

5344
05:20:03,000 --> 05:20:08,080
Speaker 2: What I I kind of want to conclude, uh, I

5345
05:20:08,159 --> 05:20:11,240
want I kind of want to wait until our next session.

5346
05:20:11,279 --> 05:20:15,599
I want to get into Churchill becomes Prime Minister, or

5347
05:20:15,680 --> 05:20:17,560
before that, I want to go to Munich Churchill becomes

5348
05:20:17,599 --> 05:20:21,439
Prime Minister, the war years. That'll take about half an hour,

5349
05:20:21,479 --> 05:20:24,759
I think, and then half our forty five minutes, and

5350
05:20:24,840 --> 05:20:28,119
then we'll get into the onset of Operation Barbarosa and

5351
05:20:28,200 --> 05:20:30,799
switch our photos to the Soviet Union, and then in

5352
05:20:30,840 --> 05:20:33,799
our final episode before we get into the aftermath of

5353
05:20:33,840 --> 05:20:35,560
the war and the Nuremberg will deal with kind of

5354
05:20:35,599 --> 05:20:40,479
the convergence of policy, Nudio policy, Churchill in the focus

5355
05:20:40,840 --> 05:20:44,159
stalin Soviet Union. I realize the teams are getting bogged

5356
05:20:44,159 --> 05:20:47,159
on in Minutia, especially on the issue of Churchill in

5357
05:20:47,159 --> 05:20:50,200
the UK, but there's an incredible amount of detail and

5358
05:20:50,240 --> 05:20:54,599
complexity here, and it's a lot more conspiratorial than what

5359
05:20:54,759 --> 05:20:58,159
happened in America or the Soviet Union. Does that sound agreeable?

5360
05:20:58,799 --> 05:21:02,479
Sounds good to me? Okay? And again I'm so sorry

5361
05:21:02,479 --> 05:21:05,240
we had to delay this particular session. But if you

5362
05:21:05,319 --> 05:21:08,200
want to, if you want to jump back on onto

5363
05:21:08,319 --> 05:21:12,439
content on Saturday or anytime. The re after that would

5364
05:21:12,439 --> 05:21:12,880
be just fine.

5365
05:21:13,439 --> 05:21:16,360
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, when we stop recording, i'll talk. I'll talk

5366
05:21:16,400 --> 05:21:19,520
to you about that. Okay, Yeah, plug your substack real

5367
05:21:19,639 --> 05:21:21,360
quick and uh we'll end this.

5368
05:21:21,599 --> 05:21:24,799
Speaker 2: I shall do so. I get deplatformed a lot, so

5369
05:21:25,040 --> 05:21:26,799
don't look for me on Twitter if I probably won't

5370
05:21:26,799 --> 05:21:31,880
be back there. You can find me on substack real

5371
05:21:32,119 --> 05:21:37,200
Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. I've got

5372
05:21:37,240 --> 05:21:41,200
a lot of print content coming out imminently and a

5373
05:21:41,279 --> 05:21:43,159
lot of long form I'm gonna be posting up more

5374
05:21:43,200 --> 05:21:47,240
regularly on the substack, so please follow it, please join it.

5375
05:21:47,799 --> 05:21:50,520
The podcast drops every other week. It's only five dollars

5376
05:21:50,560 --> 05:21:52,919
a month. It'll never be more than that unless you're

5377
05:21:52,919 --> 05:21:57,680
truly like in dire freaking hobo straights like joint for

5378
05:21:57,759 --> 05:22:00,599
five dollars a month, please it helps. That's all I got.

5379
05:22:01,880 --> 05:22:03,439
Speaker 1: Appreciate it until the next time.

5380
05:22:03,880 --> 05:22:05,319
Speaker 2: Thank you, Pete. Thanks