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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone
back to the Pekingono Show. Thomas is here and we
will continue talking about mister Oswald Mosley.
Speaker 2: Are you doing Thomas, I'm doing well. Something that's there's
two things that I think are very interesting about the
period of about nineteen thirty one to nineteen thirty three,
you know, not just because that was the national Socialist
descendancy and that changed things globally quite literally, but especially
it changed the perception of fascism, but not in ways
that people might think in that early on. Okay. And
also I made mention before that Moseley considered himself an
accolade of Keenes, and Keynes actually thought highly of Moseley,
and he endorsed his economic model, you know, and like later,
like the British establishment had a strange relationship with Keenes
on account of this. You know, they'd held him out
as kind of like the savior of of the global economy,
the nascent global economy. So it was not anybody's interest
to slander him or try and sideline him on grounds
that he was some sort of unpatriotic fascist sympathizer. But
they stopped trusting him after that. And you know, I'll
get into this too, but like the British Home Office,
when it became clear MOS and actual support, they issued
the statement that was deliberately leaked about how oh, the
British Union of Fascists. It's populated by criminals and men
who find themselves in trouble with the law, and you know,
and and and commoners and servants, you know, and and
men who don't have the skills to make it in
the industrial economy. That was completely at odds and reality.
You had a bunch of guys, the kinds of guys
who ended up settling Rhodesia. You had a bunch of
like really game n CEOs for war heroes. You had
a bunch of young guys who kind of had a
resume like oral did. They'd been to Burma, They've been
to They've been to India, they'd been to Africa. Like,
these guys were adventure hungry, like very like you know,
kind of marshall oriented, like like very tough people, and
they were kind of the backbone of the late British Empire.
They were the kinds of guys who joined like the
Black and Tans. Like I'm not saying that's like a
good thing to do, but like these are very aggressive
people who believed in in you know, in Britain. Like
there's the kinds of guys who, you know, U joined
the the UH answered to call an ulster, you know,
the thirty six Alted Division and got creamed at the somme.
The are the guys, the guys who who signed up
to be constabulary police and Burma like that's one of
the reasons why they were dangerous the establishment. See this
is this is like the myth about like fascist and
it's on the one hand, it's like, oh, fascists are
a bunch of no account losers who live with their
mom and can't stay out of jail. But then on
the other hand, it's supposed to be the most dangerous
people anywhere. It's like, which is it? You know, so
that this this mythology very much. You know that that
was kind of like the founding narrative because early on
Chamberlain's ascendency after MacDonald and when Churchill was kind of
on the outset, everybody, you know, the the the British
streak didn't particularly like Hitler, but they viewed him like
they did Mussolini, Like they viewed him as as an
incredibly important figure and a consumantly serious guy. You know
this like like you know, and if no another, if
for no other reason, you know, people forget the prospect
of a communist revolution in the UK again specifically in England.
That was a very real possibility. That wasn't that, That
wasn't like nonsense, That wasn't like eisenower Air nonsense. You know,
uh where these like Bircher types of bandy that like
the Communists are gonna take over Iowa. There's the reason
why Mark said that in his mind, you know, a
Marxist letting this revolution was gonna happen in the UK,
and it'd be staved off for a time in Germany
because Germany had already moved towards state socialism. But you know,
this is a very real danger. And even a lot
of even a lot of polite society types who who
thought that the b U for bully boys and thought
that Molesey was kind of a dangerous, sinister person. They
were like, I'm glad that these guys are are stomping communists,
you know, I'm glad that if push came to shove,
you know, we we'd have this like vanguard of of
of men to deal with it, you know. And I'm
getting a hold bit ahead of myself. But you know,
one of the things that happened the National Socialist descendancy
in a in March nineteen thirty three, the National Socialists,
they pulled forty three point nine percent on the Reichstag.
February twenty eighth of nineteen thirty three was the Reichstag
Fire Decree, which for all practical purposes banned the Communist Party,
and Ernest Tolloman got arrested. Like how they different, Like
how they constituent elements of of of the former German
Empire dealt with the Reichsteg Fire decree varied because there
was still something of a devult federalism at play. That was,
that was all done by bout nineteen thirty five thirty six.
But even even in gaues and you know, territories that
were friendly to the National Socialists or at least like
not unfriendly, Hitler and uh Hindenburg weren't issuing Dick Todds.
And this is how you must handle, this is how
he must impluent the Reichsteg decree. So the Communists still
had some breathing rooms some places, but for all predical
purp but their leadership had been arrested. The strong up
to Lung was was was stomping the ship out of them.
You know, they had the entire state apparatus turning on them.
And the most important thing is the KPD can no
longer sent delegates to the reichs dog. So for all
predial services. In political terms, the National Soldists had a
supermajority and like parliamentary terms, you know, although not in like, yeah,
population terms. When the Communists responded to that was the
Communists declared, like a united front and they're like, from
now on, like, we're not gonna We're not gonna antagonize
labor parties, We're not gonna antagonize Democratic socialists. We've like
we got to present a united front to fight the fascists,
you know. And uh, this had real implications on the
British street because up until then, one of the things
that early on before the b UF, thing of the
b UF, when it was under the banner of the
New Party, the Independent Labor Rights Mosely advantaged to poach
a lot of those guys, including his original head of security,
which later became like the ex action element, like the
Fascist Action Force, which was basically like the b US
like stirr uped along. I'll get it at a minute.
But the reason why the independent labor rights gravitated the fascists,
like it wasn't just because a lot of these guys
are basically patriotic, even though they were you know, like
left wing, but the communists were attacking their meetings and
and and uh and stopping them out because basically it
was like, you're not, no, nobody's gonna ride under the
red banner unless they're communists, you know, when they stopped
doing that because basically wanted to put bodies in the
street and and and smash the the fascists. And this
really alarmed people, as it should have because revolutionary conditions
were brewing. And in Moseley's view, Moseley Mosy got a
pretty nuanced view of this. You know, he was not
by any means assembled in un political matters, Like nobody
would have said he was dumb in absolute terms, but
he was actually very sophisticated in practice and theory of politics.
And his view was, I don't think the communists can
win here. But he's like, politics have become starkly binary,
you know, and there is no position anymore other than
that of a facist or that of the Bolsheviks. You know,
that does not there's not like a discursive space outside
of that, you know, and how Churchill and the focus
hijacked policy. That owe to the fact that things had
things had abated in a large part, especially after the
Communists lost in Spain and they lost in Germany. You know,
people got to understand that the Communists were winning at
this point. You know, this was still three years before
the Spanish were even kicked off. You know, they definitely
had momentum on their side. And that's I mean, I
think Mose was a fascist anyway, And if you read
what he wrote, especially when he was outlining the corporatist model,
and that was its first real long form political testament,
was the coming corporate state, and then attracted again not
only the praise at Keenes, but guys like George Bernard Shaw.
And Shaw was still addressing Fabian society meetings, but he
was talking like a fascist, you know. And even in
the twentieth century, I mean, even even in the Inner Warriors,
a lot of people still who weren't particularly sympathetic to
communism or particularly left wing in their colleagues. That's just
where the animating energy was in political life. That's they
gravitated to. I mean, obviously after ninety forty five, that's
where anybody with any radical inclination was funneled due because
the Zech guys wouldn't permit anything else, because anything else
would have been a fool's errand. But the fastest perspective
in the UK I'm not going to continent was a
minority perspective, you know, not as much of one as
the Home Office wanted to do allege, but it wasn't.
It was a minority perspective, and only certain kinds of
men found a home there. And uh so that's important
to that's important to understand. I think some people who
don't understand the history, they've got a tendency to consider
mostly in some because they watched bullshit like Peaky Blinders
and they had this say, they had this character in
their mind of Moseley as being is being like George
Linking rock Well, but with a laming accent or something
that's completely off base, you know, Like I said, that's
one of the reasons why despite what I view of
as some of his blind spots in the post Warriors
and Moseley is a hero of mine. He was a
great man. And you know, in part I consider on
those terms because he he was a sophisticated political theorist
and as was Mussolini in his own right, and must
Leny was kind of the kind of like the right
wing lenin you know, uh Mosey wasn't just a tadle
least sophisticated guy and like a tough, individually very sophisticated
view of politics and a lot of that ode I
believe too, you know, his familial lineage and things. But
it was October nineteen thirty one that's been more formally
broke with conventional politics, and in part, like I just mentioned,
that was because of what he observed as the experience
of the Independent Labor Party. And for clarity, the Independent
Labor Party broke with the mainstream labor rights because they
viewed them as basically like a stop gap is either
like a they view people like McDonald is kind of
like trying to force a stop gap solution whereby you know,
a parliamentary solution because you know, where were some concessions
would be granted to the laboring classes, but essentially the
system would remain as it is, or they viewed it
as a you know, a mechanism of active sabotage of
revolutionary ambitions, okay. And as the Independent Labor Party developed,
you know, a direct action capability at a presence on
the street, like the communists began not first they began
disrupting them, and then when they didn't quit what they
were doing in the communists started violently assaulting them. Like
it got so violent that the ILP they couldn't carry
on the business of electioneering. You And Mose was looking
at this, and Molesey is like, Okay, if this, if
this is the way that, if this the way the
left is treating one of their own sectarian tendencies, you know,
we're we're we're we're tripping over our own feet proverbially speaking,
and thinking that you know, some kind of some kind
of patriotic alternative to the Tories or the you know
or the National Unity Party as it was called, is viable,
you know. And one of the uh, John Beckett, who
uh himself had been then one of the main organizers
of the i l P before they before they disbanded
for a practical purposes, it set up his own defense force,
you know, like like sting up to long type element
because he'd been a boxer, you know, and he ultimately
clicked up with Mosley when Moseley set up the New
Party and this kind of became the background of the
British this kind of became the backbone of the British
Union of Fascists, you know, like guys like this, you know,
and UH. This is also when the seed was planted
in his mind of a cultivating a direct action element
like a party militia, which preceded the British Union of Fascists,
you know at UH the like like that. The new
Party youth movement was UH was was as mostly called them,
the shock troops as well as the security etchelon of
the New Party. And this became a lot more formalized
obviously as the b UF became the British Union a
Fascists and they were the first guys to wear the
UH where the you know, the the flash and the circle.
You know it represents action within unity. But originally it
was it was the UH. It was the direct action element,
the you know, the youth corps that that wore those.
And then because initially the pretash ingon a fascist, their
symbol was a fascists just like the Italians. Totally but
surely it developed its own aesthetic. And incidentally, you know,
Mostley had been a champion fencer and he kept it
up like even into his political career. The British Unit
of Fascist black uniform. It looks like a futurist kind
of thing, and and it is. But the U the
tunic is a fencing tunic, like painted or dyed black,
you know, in part because it's it was it's like
a primitive form of body armor. But also uh, it
was supposed to represent uh like uh kind of like
the dialectical collision and resolution of you know, like the
past and like things like swordsmanship with like the future,
you know, which I think is really cool. But and
it was also distinctive from both the National Socialists and
and and uh the National Fascist Party in Italy. But
it was in October of thirty one that uh, it's
kind of that that's like the seminal date that you know,
like mostly abandoned parliamentarism. But the Mosie also he held
something in common with Kadrianu. He didn't know Kadrianu. I
think he probably knew i on Mota. And I'll get
into why. I think that as we proceed i on
Mota was the right hand man of Kadrianu. He fell
fighting the Communists in Spain and he was very much martyred.
Vasil Madin who is his comrade, another Iron Guard guy.
They're about k I A and this was like a
this was like a a rallying point for fascists when
when they were killed, and Mota had an internationalist few
of fascism, which I find which is important to our discussion.
But so it it's interesting on its own, interesting on
on its own terms. But the yeah, interestingly too, the UH,
the New Party, UH youth militia. These guys at first
were surreptitiously attending Communist meetings to kind of see what
their ops were doing. But they ended up actually poaching
a fair number of Communist members to their ranks, which
is interesting. And these guys moved in a lot of
similar social circles and mostly did them very deliberately. Like
the reason I made I drew the analogy to Quadriana
in the early Iron Guard mostly believed very much. He said,
we got to concentrate on like a cell structure, and
you've got to do stuff like insinuating, you know, our
peoples into athletic clubs and like social clubs, but where
people are serious, you know, it's like we need to
post the youngsters, you know, for for the for the
youth militia you know, from like boxing and fencing clubs.
You know, we need we need to poach older guys,
you know, from like the Fabian Society, and some of
these guys who you know are are you know, bright
intellectual lights in the communist movement, but who obviously don't
really belong their own to their patriotic bonafides, which was
which might seem like a forearm conclusion, but the UK
is not America and like it's not the same thing.
You know that that was actually pretty radical thinking and
not particularly easy to accomplish. But one of the things
about Mosley being a lesser aristocrat and it's like unique
background and his family's heritage literally of crushing radical elements
and his ability to kind of like move in different circles,
as well as the fact he was a genuine man
of action, this like allowed him to kind of jump
the the class and cast barriers, which to this day
remained quite rigid in the UK for like a developed country.
It's it's anachronistic, you know, but uh, and what's most
and what I think I I mean, I think it's
I think it's someone indisputable, you know, Moseley, despite Diana
Moseley's personal friendship with Adolf Hitler, which was a very
real thing. That's not Home Office propaganda and it's not
creative license like court historians it was. It was very real.
But aside from all of that and the superficial commonalities
between the National Socialists and the BUF, Mosey was first
and foremost a fascist, you know, and his view of
fascism was distinct. It wasn't merely derivative. But I'll get
into such that the Italians developed a fascist and called
it a Fascist International, which had some success, And I'll
get into that because it's important. One of the reasons
they liked Moseley. It wasn't just because he liaised with
them personally and that made Mussolini feel important and the
obviously had a genuine rapport. But also mose Mosey didn't
abide National Socialist race doctrine, you know, he just didn't
like That's not to say it was something egalitarian. He
was very anti Jewish, though not not in like racialist terms.
He was very pro white vis a vis the white
dominions of the UK and what do you imagine the
future of them being. But you know, he didn't have
any time for this kind of stuff that guys like
Arnold Leis did you know, who spend his days kind
of pouring over stuff that Julius Striker published or you know,
this kind of a Darwinian racialist stuff and is a
model for for a political doctrine, you know, And and
the Italians approved of it. I don't think a lot
of the National Socialist leadership cast didn't go for that either,
but a lot did. And Germany, like the United States,
that's something people just accepted. They thought that that's they
thought that that was the essence of racial persona, if
you will. My friend Giles was nice enough to publish
an article I wrote on that I guess more of
an essay really, but you know, the ninety thirty one also,
I mean, this is when Keenes is openly this when
King was openly banging mostly as a progressive thinker and
an important man. You know, Keenes had sympathized with the
national government when he viewed it as viable, and that
wasn't unusual. I actually have some respect for Ramsey McDonald,
like we talked about last time, and I think the
time before, I think McDonald was in an impossible situation
and as a head of government and a parliamentary system. Okay,
I mean you take the fall for the failure of
that government or coalition. Okay, But you know, Kings, I
think Keens was is essentially worthless as an economist in
terms of you know, true economic theory. But I understand
the limitations of the time, and frankly that's why everybody
became a Kingsian, this idea that you know, it's a
kind of embrace of anarchism to just put the nuances
of of a of of of a rapidly integrating global
economy just you know, be like left to left to
fate or chance, you know, the the inability to to
code data correctly and to identify what variables must be coded,
and most importantly, the inability to register information in real time,
which we didn't acquire until the two thousands. Really, you know,
I make the point again and again that some you know,
some of even something like the crash of eighty seven,
like wouldn't happen or couldn't happen again, like structurally is precluded,
but you know it, it's the equivalent of it's like
talking about it'd be like, uh, throwing shade on pythagorasts.
This is probably not imperfect analogy because I'm not a
mathma a math guy at all. I'd be like throwing
shade a pathagorists because to him, like the theoretical math
was restricted by you know, like available instruments like an amicus. Okay,
the technology is just positive in these things, especially when
you're talking about systems where you know, variables and the
ability to corral, identify them, corral them, and calculate them
or is entirely contingent upon high tech, you know. And
this is exacerbated in economics because time is of the
essence in a way is not and other endeavors except
for maybe warfare. I'm sure Marxist would have something to
say about that. That's a truce, but uh, I think
so to understand what I mean, you know, and the
Keenes also accepted. Uh. He basically accepted Moses's paradigm of
politics moving forward, that it was going to become very
binary and one of the few things Shumpeter is always
putting out and Keenes that agreed on was that a
communist revolution is probably inevitable. You know. Schumpeter thought this
could be staved off by concessions of the body politique
and by you know, a prosperity having a you know,
his corrective functions set in in the in the globalizing economy,
that would have an effect of kind of neutralizing the
most radical elements. But Keenes was looking at this as
basically a neutral arbiter, and he's like, okay, you know,
if if you want to preclude a so style nightmare here,
there's got to be some kind of planned economy. And
the corporate state was basically it was basically kind of
like a demand cider's dream. And I would argue that
the strange as it might seem as a model of
administrative efficiency, I think that the British system of the
nineteen twenties and thirties, like the inter war system, I
think it was uniquely situated to administer something like the
corporate the corporatist model it was. It would not have
led to long term prosperity. There would have been terrible problems,
but in terms of mitigating the initial crisis and facilitating
short term development in a punctuated way, which in turn
would have generated real capital. I think it probably would
have worked very well. Okay. I don't want somebody to
cut that out of contact and then say I'm some
kind of fuckhead Keenesian, because I'm not at all, Okay,
So please don't do that. I mean, it's funny sometimes
when people do that, but that's that wouldn't be funny.
I mean, it would be you know what I mean.
In the event, January nineteen thirty two is when that's
when Moldy made it second visit the room, and that's
when Moldy truly became a fascist. Okay, and Mossoleni very
much kind of cultivated this. I mean, I don't I
don't think. I don't. I don't think Mosley was some
kind of simpleton and it was taken in by the
the kind of hero cult of Little Duche. I mean,
I'm sure he was somewhat. I mean, anybody would be like,
like Mussolini was an impressive man, and he was a
man's man and just a remarkable guy. But I you know,
mostly was young, but he'd you know, he was a
combat veteran, he he was a he was an aristocrat.
He was a natural leader like he He wasn't somebody
who was snowed or by this kind of thing. You know,
why did why did Mussolini cultivate mostly so much? I mean,
I think especially when initially there's mutual respect, but there
was a coldness that Mussolini exhibited towards Hitler. In contrast, okay,
like you has a few things. You know, the Italians,
despite what they might say then or now, they they
want the approval of the British, you know, I mean
the British kind of cult not kind of the British
do kind of covet the aspects of their own a
racial and national character that are lacking and that are
expressed with great vitality and in continental people and specifically,
you know, people as in passionate as the Italians. But
you know, there's a there was a huge prestige in
those days to the British Empire, and it's like some
vestige of that indoors today, albeit at a shadow of
its former self. But so there is that. But also
you know, contra the National Socialists and Hitler specifically, this
caused some tension with Hitler in the SS. That's way
too much of a tangent, but you know, other than
the independent State of Croatia, which was a totally unique case.
And the relationship of the Croats is that people of
the Germans is unique. The only thing comparable really is
like the Serbs are to the to the Russians. But
the Hitler government, out of their way to disabuse anybody
of you know, including their staunch allies, of any sense
that we're going to try and model our government on
the national social estate. The fascists are trying to cultivate
something very different. Now people forget this. It's kind of
been lost to history, kind of like the Four Powers
packed in part because I think it it conflicts with
the sort of simple minded narrative of what fascism represented
Mussolini had. I can't read or pronounce Italian, It's not
even going to try. Mussolini convened this office within the
party and within the government. It translated to the Action
Committee for the Universality of Rome. That's kind of a
bassardized translation like that basically, like like the colloquially it
translates to, you know, like office for like the promotion
of the Roman culture or you know, like or the
Roman political education. It was basically like it's basically common
form became later okay for the Soviet Union, and its
purpose was to identify fascist tendencies and friendly states, as
well as movements behind enemy lines that could be cultivated
and brought into you know, it's like an internationalist political tendency.
So it's culminated in the nineteen thirty four Mantrue Fascist
Conference Switzerland, also known not incorrectly and not as colloquially
as the Fascist International, the first Fascist International Congress. It
was held in December nineteen thirty four, in the sixteenth
and seventeenth and there was a There was representatives of
what had been identified by the Action Committee for the
Universality of Rome as bona fide fascist movements in something
like over thirty countries, but such that it was. The
delegates came from thirteen different states, including Ion Mota from Romania,
you know, the Iron Guard Quizzling was there, the Greek
National Socialists and a delegation one of the Falangist deputies came,
but the Phalangists, like Command Element, refused to endorse it
because they claimed the Falange are not fascists. The Irish
Blue Shirts sent a delegation the movement Front Ciste, which
was not affiliated with Charles and Moross's movement. They identified
explicitly as fascists. And what became of them, I think
a lot of them ended up being folded into various
militias because they kind of disappear from the historical record
by nineteen thirty seven thirty eight. So that's part of
the problem is I can't I can't even read like
passable friends, so like I mean, I can read passable German.
But there was a Baltic contingent Salazar uh some representative
of the Salazar's movement. You know, you get the idea.
You know, there was a some of the some of
the Austrian national Catholic types. Belgium had sent a contingent,
so did the Danes, the Netherlands. You know, you get
the idea, and there was an indigenous like Swiss element. Obviously,
notably absent was any delegation the Third Reich. There weren't
any of the Austrian National socialist present. But at that
time there was a delicate minuet going on between them
and Mussolini, especially because they were waging an insurgency campaigning
as Dolphus and they actually ended up murdering him. I mean,
which is that would would, to say the least, cast
some real consternation between old Duce and the fear. But
that uh and Mussolini, there weren't that. There was obviously
like Italians, elements of the Italian government Fascist government were
facilitating organizing it, but there weren't any like there weren't
any like ideological commissars there from like the Fascist Party,
because mostly he wanted to see he didn't want he said,
he wanted to get like an accurate rendering without you know,
people trying to jockey for like favoritism, money, geo strategic benefit,
you know, from from the party. It was basically put
these put these men in a room and like see
what they do, and see what their priorities are, and
you know, see if we can properly call them stituate
representative of the constituent elements of an international tendency. Mosley
did not attend, and he did that for very specific
reasons because by this point, as I just mentioned, I mean,
this was this was late nineteen thirty four. Not only
was Hitler reichs Consler, but the Reichsteig Fire Decreed had
been passed there was a state of emergency. The National
Socialists were also like busy passing laws like disenfranchising Jews politically,
so all over the British press, moss opts are saying
Mosley is a Nazi, Mosley is an agent of the
Kingdom of Italy. You know, Mosley is this anti Semite
who has been insinuated into or a mist because owing
to failing political fortunes, he looked abroad and he's basically
like a paid asset, you know. And this man, this
man should be behind bars, you know. And if we
can't put him behind bars, you know, we we we
we we need to shame him and and you know,
expose him as as this is this genocidal, biological racialist
or whatever. But first and fore, first and forest concern
was the deprive the enemy in the domestic press and
these this element that became the focus later, deprive them
of of the ammunition to claim that Moti was some
kind of foreign agent or foreign asset, you know. And
that was that was wise. But you know, I emphasized
that because I mean for a few reasons, not just
because it's essential to understanding kind of the various iterations
of the revolutionary right in the inner warriors. But you know,
the fascists, like the capital f fascists, whether you're talking
about whether you're talking about Mostly, whether you're talking about Mussolini,
whether you're talking about Ion Mota and uh, some of
these Iron Guard partisans, these guys were basically adjusting for
cultural discrete cultural tendencies and animating elements. These guys that
were basically the ideological progeny of George Sorell. You know,
they they viewed themselves as arguably you know, they believed
that they believed in a total kind of regeneration of
the race and the national community and a new conceptualization
of of of man in the twentieth century. But at
the end of the day, you know, they they came.
They were emergent from you know, not just the spiritual
crisis of the Western world, but the radicalism of the
labor movement. You know, when something had to change. What
was imperative was not to allow, not not to allow
the Communists and in their estimation, you know, the Jews,
to subvert this historical momentum, you know, to destroy the
national community or the racial community or like a rip
man out of historical existence. But that's very different than
the way the National Socialists approached things, you know, like
like Hitler wasn't a fascist, you know. And I'm not
being I'm not being obtuse and saying, oh, because he
was a National Socialist. I mean that goes not saying,
but Hitler was something very different, as were the men
in his inner circle. As we're the control group of
the of the NSDAP who were somewhat with the Hitler
had something of a contentious relationship with despite the fear
of Prinsip and everything else. But even but even even
the National Socialists who found themselves kind of at odds
with Hitler, doctrinally, they represented something very different, you know,
And that's important. And I think that because you know,
Shorthand for marcis Lennon is Shorthand for all their enemies
basically is fascist. And that's something I think because I think,
because people in America generally are kind of intellectually impoverished
in matters of politics, the kind of simpleton like liberal
laugh sort of like appropriated that vocabulary, you know, and
there's an unfortunate tendency of people to kind of accept
these things as colloquialisms, which is a very deleterious effect
on on the ability to the conceptualize stuff accurately. But
I think that's a lot of this misunderstanding comes from
it's like, oh, anybody, anybody who the left uses their
ops and anybody who's European and you know, right wing
but not a conservative, Oh, they're fascists. Like that's not
that's not constructive, and it's it's it's it's particularly inaccurate.
In the case of the National Socialists. I highly recommandur
and so Nolty's Three Faces of Fascism. That was his
first major word translated into English, and he act away
from some of the some of the UH epistemological claims
contain they're in and some of the conclusions. But I
I I I don't find any substantial flaw with its
methodology or its conceptual paradigm. If you want to understand
what I'm talking about here, that's a very good starting point.
But let me check for me to see how long
of them going. Okay, yeah, I would definitely have to
like wrap it up in a a in another episode
before you tell me that's okay. I just didn't I
didn't want to monopolate that I don't want to monopolize
your time or be too long winded on this topic
if it was making people bored or they wanted to
move on. But yeah, I don't think anyone.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is bored and wants to move on.
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, No, I get it probably gets conscious
and ways that I shouldn't. I think it's a whole
over from when I was young and I used to
worry a lot about that kind of stuff. No feedback,
I mean, obviously you can work direct feedback on this
than I because it's your show. But it's been uniformly positive.
But I I still worry about it sometimes, man, and
especially when somebody's kind enough to, you know, gift me
with a platform and discuss stuff with me. But the uh,
one of the things it was right around it was
March ninety thirty two, so I mean right around a
lot of these critical events, but before the before the
fascist International Tolerance, when we've mostly been back from Italy
for a couple of months. The BUF was you know,
formally kind of being launched in uh politically in the
Political Quarterly, which was kind of like Foreign Affairs magazine
is here, but like more widely circulated, like basically everybody
read it. It was politically engaged, you know, like regardless of
their ideological struke. Moty kind of laid out the case
for fascism, but he did so from like a very
in a very Hegelian way. He said, look, we are
in the UK specifically, is in the midst of a crisis.
You know. He's like, materially like, obviously the Germans were
hit harder than us, but politically our system is wasn't
is in greater crisis than any other, you know. And
he said this crisis has produced new parties, new new
types of men, in new forces. And he said that
the only way this crisis can be met, let alone mitigated,
is by men who quote turn their backs on the
old world and on the old political system. He said
that communism it won't just supersede social democrats and labor rights,
it will smash them, you know. He said, Conservatives think
that they can bring these people, that they can you know,
kind of gel with these people or cut them off
with the knees by bringing them into the coalition. He's like,
the they that's not possible, you know, because he's like,
they're operating on the assumptions that were just enumerated, you know,
like they are that vanguard of new men. And he
said only the corporate state can defeat the Bolsheviks, because
he says, not only does the corporate state present a
model for you know, economic planning that on the one
hand doesn't leave you know, macroeconomic decision making to chance,
but it also doesn't strangle the golden goose, and it
like allows private capital you know, to reap the benefit
of its bargain and incentivizes you know, investment in the nation.
But he said also like out of this structure, you know,
will comes like a defense mechanism of like men who
are like mobilized in service to the nation already, you know,
and who have a stake in the corporate is enterprise
and contain therein is you know, a very kind of
brass tax political education that draws very sharply the distinction
between you know, friend and enemy with respect to the
internal situation. You know. So he says that this is
imperative you know, to basically not not just to guard
the empire and guard the racial community and to uh
protect uh Britain's political system from you know, destruction and
subversion from within, but he said it's also necessary to
create and generate basically uh they basically uh an apparatus
that they can inculcate, you know, men with the necessary
political doctrine. You know, he's like, basically like by creating
the structure, which will then force a direct confrontation with
the communists, it will become very very clear like who
is the friends are of the working man and and
who is not And those that would seek to subvert
it will quickly be exposed as people who you know
want to destroy any patriotic impulse which they view as
vestigil and reactionary, you know, in uh in Englishman specifically,
so you know, he was making his case not just
for political economy of a Keynesian stripe, but like with teeth.
But he was also suggesting that this is the only
structure that can facilitate you know, national salvation and like
the basic defense of life in capital. And he wasn't
wrong about the conditions emergent, you know. And I don't
think people realize that in this country. I think they
have some idea that the UK is kind of like
America Light or something, or just like a smaller version
they don't like they don't understand the degree to which
revolutionary communism had had momentum there. You know, it's not
an accident, you know, like it's not acting. The Cambridge
five were these like society type guys, you know, like
it wasn't it wasn't just like shop stewards and like angry,
uh you know, kind of middle class types who who
and in the British sense that means something very different
than here, you know, who who realized that you know,
they're kind of saddled with diminishing returns and in the
industrial system kind of found themselves in the role of
like underpaid overseer. You know. The these these were guys
like him, Philby and his friends. These guys were like
the best and the brightest, you know, I mean, and
that they weren't outliers and uh, the in the in
the British system, guys like that were groomed for certain
roles within the within the empire. You know. You you
can't just chalk it up like oh, that's just limousine
liberalism or that's oh that's just rich people being you know, commies.
It's this you can't explain it away like that. It's
something very different the UH. But it was that October
nineteen thirty two, right around the time that Motley turned
thirty six years of age, that the British Union of
Fascists was officially formed with the thirty two founding members
who kind of became the alt comfort. One of the
most important UH figures, personages rather in the party was
Raven Thompson. And I probably enough time to fully flesh
it up out in this hour, but but yeah, the
the degree which two the kind of UH, the kind
of internal mythology the b u F you know, like
what what Mosey and the members and and and men
like Raven Thompson, who was the propaganda officer. These guys
were very is very much Uhianism through the lens of
Bernard Shaw. And make no mistake like Shaw was very
much and I'm kind of fascinated by He was writing
about the tragedy of the Commons and I can't remember
the name of the essay, and he famously, uh, he
famously said that Jack the Ripper was UH was a
great eugenicist and he was like performing an invaluable service
and he was serious about that. He was serious about
that kind of stuff. But he wasn't just being He
wasn't just being like an eccentric limey who likes to
make taste as jokes about like cutting up hookers or something.
I mean, yeah, there was some element of that too,
but you know, this kind of consolation of ideological and
UH and kind of conceptual tendencies from like George Bernard
Shaw to UH to him, you know, the Fabians that
he associated with and in Keens and Mussolini and the
kind of direct influence that early on he uh he
wielded uh intentionally or not or Moseley. This was a
very unusual constellation of aspects, but it was very genuine.
It wasn't just this kind of grab bag of rationalizations
or something, you know. And it was a very It
was a very British and specifically English fascism, Like there
was a heavy Scottish contingent in the b u F
and Ulster guys like interestingly, Billy Fullerton. The Billy Boys
UH of sectarian lore H were founded by Billy Fullerton,
and he was a b UF. It was even like
a day one uh like b u F Street Fighter,
which seems peculiar on its face in some ways, if
because Moldley was you know, quite sympathetic to the Irish,
but it but there's something very there's something very English
and in some way Scottish as well, at least in
some aspects of the party that you know, it can't
just be understood as a as a kind of like
a racialist or right wing tendency that oh wrote under
a fascist banner owing to some derivative impulse or something
like that. It was very much its own thing. But
we're coming up on an hour, so yeah, let's uh.
I will finish up on Moseley and and the the
Epoch in question next time, and I'll talk about the
I'll talk about the British Free Corps, which of course
is uh the Britishers who joined theF SS, some of
whom were British Union of Fascist Veterans. But I think
that would be very good man.
Speaker 1: Alrighty two plugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very excited to announce that the movie, the
documentary that my dear friend Reke and I made, it's
finally finished. So I'm gonna spend this like, the editing
is finished and stuff. I plan to spend this weekend
figuring out the best way to upload it. So that
people can see it. I haven't decided where I'm gonna Ideally,
I'm want to upload it the sub stack. I don't
know if it's possible yet. I might have to upload
it the gum road. But believe me, everybody will shout
it out on all my social media. It won't be
hard to find. My substack is uh real Thomas seven
seven seven dot substack dot com. I'm also on Instagram,
I'm on x I'm like many many places. My social
media alts is at number seven H O M A
S seven seven seven dot com. That's what I've got, all.
Speaker 1: Right, it's all part six. Thank you, tomashsh