1 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the 2 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,920 episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond 3 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,719 the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to 4 00:00:48,759 --> 00:00:53,399 explain something right now. If you support me through substack 5 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,079 or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that 6 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:02,600 you can plug into any podcatcher, including Apple, and you'll 7 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,599 be able to listen to the episodes through there. If 8 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,519 you support me through subscribe, star gum Road, or on 9 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,079 my website directly, I will send you a link where 10 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,439 you can download the file and you can listen to 11 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:19,799 it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support 12 00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:23,120 everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It allows 13 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,319 me to basically put out an episode every day now, 14 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,480 and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate. 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,120 I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two 16 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:38,439 even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without you, 17 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,280 So thank you for the support. Head on over to 18 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,519 Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and 19 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,000 do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone 20 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,680 back to the Pekingono Show. Thomas is here and we 21 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,200 will continue talking about mister Oswald Mosley. 22 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: Are you doing Thomas, I'm doing well. Something that's there's 23 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:06,120 two things that I think are very interesting about the 24 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:09,759 period of about nineteen thirty one to nineteen thirty three, 25 00:02:12,879 --> 00:02:14,800 you know, not just because that was the national Socialist 26 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:23,159 descendancy and that changed things globally quite literally, but especially 27 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:26,479 it changed the perception of fascism, but not in ways 28 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,960 that people might think in that early on. Okay. And 29 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,960 also I made mention before that Moseley considered himself an 30 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:44,240 accolade of Keenes, and Keynes actually thought highly of Moseley, 31 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,240 and he endorsed his economic model, you know, and like later, 32 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,759 like the British establishment had a strange relationship with Keenes 33 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,479 on account of this. You know, they'd held him out 34 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:05,599 as kind of like the savior of of the global economy, 35 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,680 the nascent global economy. So it was not anybody's interest 36 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,400 to slander him or try and sideline him on grounds 37 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,159 that he was some sort of unpatriotic fascist sympathizer. But 38 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:26,599 they stopped trusting him after that. And you know, I'll 39 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:28,680 get into this too, but like the British Home Office, 40 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:35,240 when it became clear MOS and actual support, they issued 41 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,360 the statement that was deliberately leaked about how oh, the 42 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,000 British Union of Fascists. It's populated by criminals and men 43 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,520 who find themselves in trouble with the law, and you know, 44 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,960 and and and commoners and servants, you know, and and 45 00:03:51,039 --> 00:03:52,800 men who don't have the skills to make it in 46 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,639 the industrial economy. That was completely at odds and reality. 47 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,319 You had a bunch of guys, the kinds of guys 48 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:00,680 who ended up settling Rhodesia. You had a bunch of 49 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:04,280 like really game n CEOs for war heroes. You had 50 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:07,199 a bunch of young guys who kind of had a 51 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,879 resume like oral did. They'd been to Burma, They've been 52 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:13,520 to They've been to India, they'd been to Africa. Like, 53 00:04:13,599 --> 00:04:17,759 these guys were adventure hungry, like very like you know, 54 00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:23,160 kind of marshall oriented, like like very tough people, and 55 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,560 they were kind of the backbone of the late British Empire. 56 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:31,160 They were the kinds of guys who joined like the 57 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:33,279 Black and Tans. Like I'm not saying that's like a 58 00:04:33,319 --> 00:04:36,439 good thing to do, but like these are very aggressive 59 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,439 people who believed in in you know, in Britain. Like 60 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:45,480 there's the kinds of guys who, you know, U joined 61 00:04:45,519 --> 00:04:49,879 the the UH answered to call an ulster, you know, 62 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,360 the thirty six Alted Division and got creamed at the somme. 63 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,560 The are the guys, the guys who who signed up 64 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,199 to be constabulary police and Burma like that's one of 65 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,360 the reasons why they were dangerous the establishment. See this 66 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:04,240 is this is like the myth about like fascist and 67 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,079 it's on the one hand, it's like, oh, fascists are 68 00:05:06,079 --> 00:05:08,399 a bunch of no account losers who live with their 69 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:10,639 mom and can't stay out of jail. But then on 70 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,720 the other hand, it's supposed to be the most dangerous 71 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,959 people anywhere. It's like, which is it? You know, so 72 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:23,120 that this this mythology very much. You know that that 73 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,759 was kind of like the founding narrative because early on 74 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,879 Chamberlain's ascendency after MacDonald and when Churchill was kind of 75 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:36,279 on the outset, everybody, you know, the the the British 76 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:39,480 streak didn't particularly like Hitler, but they viewed him like 77 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:42,600 they did Mussolini, Like they viewed him as as an 78 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,040 incredibly important figure and a consumantly serious guy. You know 79 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,480 this like like you know, and if no another, if 80 00:05:54,480 --> 00:06:00,759 for no other reason, you know, people forget the prospect 81 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,920 of a communist revolution in the UK again specifically in England. 82 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,160 That was a very real possibility. That wasn't that, That 83 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:14,079 wasn't like nonsense, That wasn't like eisenower Air nonsense. You know, 84 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,160 uh where these like Bircher types of bandy that like 85 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:19,959 the Communists are gonna take over Iowa. There's the reason 86 00:06:19,959 --> 00:06:26,079 why Mark said that in his mind, you know, a 87 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,480 Marxist letting this revolution was gonna happen in the UK, 88 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,560 and it'd be staved off for a time in Germany 89 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,560 because Germany had already moved towards state socialism. But you know, 90 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:44,120 this is a very real danger. And even a lot 91 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,120 of even a lot of polite society types who who 92 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,439 thought that the b U for bully boys and thought 93 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:57,120 that Molesey was kind of a dangerous, sinister person. They 94 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,000 were like, I'm glad that these guys are are stomping communists, 95 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:03,399 you know, I'm glad that if push came to shove, 96 00:07:06,319 --> 00:07:10,040 you know, we we'd have this like vanguard of of 97 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,879 of men to deal with it, you know. And I'm 98 00:07:14,879 --> 00:07:17,480 getting a hold bit ahead of myself. But you know, 99 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:22,399 one of the things that happened the National Socialist descendancy 100 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,639 in a in March nineteen thirty three, the National Socialists, 101 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,759 they pulled forty three point nine percent on the Reichstag. 102 00:07:38,879 --> 00:07:42,839 February twenty eighth of nineteen thirty three was the Reichstag 103 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:47,959 Fire Decree, which for all practical purposes banned the Communist Party, 104 00:07:49,319 --> 00:07:54,560 and Ernest Tolloman got arrested. Like how they different, Like 105 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,600 how they constituent elements of of of the former German 106 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:07,959 Empire dealt with the Reichsteg Fire decree varied because there 107 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,279 was still something of a devult federalism at play. That was, 108 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,120 that was all done by bout nineteen thirty five thirty six. 109 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:23,480 But even even in gaues and you know, territories that 110 00:08:23,519 --> 00:08:25,959 were friendly to the National Socialists or at least like 111 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,840 not unfriendly, Hitler and uh Hindenburg weren't issuing Dick Todds. 112 00:08:32,879 --> 00:08:34,679 And this is how you must handle, this is how 113 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,639 he must impluent the Reichsteg decree. So the Communists still 114 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:42,120 had some breathing rooms some places, but for all predical 115 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,759 purp but their leadership had been arrested. The strong up 116 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:51,600 to Lung was was was stomping the ship out of them. 117 00:08:51,759 --> 00:08:54,320 You know, they had the entire state apparatus turning on them. 118 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,960 And the most important thing is the KPD can no 119 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,480 longer sent delegates to the reichs dog. So for all 120 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,320 predial services. In political terms, the National Soldists had a 121 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,600 supermajority and like parliamentary terms, you know, although not in like, yeah, 122 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,799 population terms. When the Communists responded to that was the 123 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,759 Communists declared, like a united front and they're like, from 124 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,840 now on, like, we're not gonna We're not gonna antagonize 125 00:09:19,919 --> 00:09:24,039 labor parties, We're not gonna antagonize Democratic socialists. We've like 126 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,639 we got to present a united front to fight the fascists, 127 00:09:27,919 --> 00:09:32,879 you know. And uh, this had real implications on the 128 00:09:32,879 --> 00:09:37,399 British street because up until then, one of the things 129 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,120 that early on before the b UF, thing of the 130 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,639 b UF, when it was under the banner of the 131 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,519 New Party, the Independent Labor Rights Mosely advantaged to poach 132 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:55,799 a lot of those guys, including his original head of security, 133 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,360 which later became like the ex action element, like the 134 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:04,399 Fascist Action Force, which was basically like the b US 135 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,360 like stirr uped along. I'll get it at a minute. 136 00:10:06,399 --> 00:10:10,679 But the reason why the independent labor rights gravitated the fascists, 137 00:10:10,879 --> 00:10:12,399 like it wasn't just because a lot of these guys 138 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,720 are basically patriotic, even though they were you know, like 139 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,440 left wing, but the communists were attacking their meetings and 140 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,480 and and uh and stopping them out because basically it 141 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,279 was like, you're not, no, nobody's gonna ride under the 142 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,799 red banner unless they're communists, you know, when they stopped 143 00:10:29,799 --> 00:10:31,879 doing that because basically wanted to put bodies in the 144 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:38,120 street and and and smash the the fascists. And this 145 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:43,159 really alarmed people, as it should have because revolutionary conditions 146 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,360 were brewing. And in Moseley's view, Moseley Mosy got a 147 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,240 pretty nuanced view of this. You know, he was not 148 00:10:51,919 --> 00:10:55,080 by any means assembled in un political matters, Like nobody 149 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,720 would have said he was dumb in absolute terms, but 150 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:06,159 he was actually very sophisticated in practice and theory of politics. 151 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,759 And his view was, I don't think the communists can 152 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:15,919 win here. But he's like, politics have become starkly binary, 153 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,320 you know, and there is no position anymore other than 154 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:24,240 that of a facist or that of the Bolsheviks. You know, 155 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,679 that does not there's not like a discursive space outside 156 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:33,480 of that, you know, and how Churchill and the focus 157 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,639 hijacked policy. That owe to the fact that things had 158 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:42,879 things had abated in a large part, especially after the 159 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,279 Communists lost in Spain and they lost in Germany. You know, 160 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,000 people got to understand that the Communists were winning at 161 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,240 this point. You know, this was still three years before 162 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:59,200 the Spanish were even kicked off. You know, they definitely 163 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:07,039 had momentum on their side. And that's I mean, I 164 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:11,799 think Mose was a fascist anyway, And if you read 165 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,720 what he wrote, especially when he was outlining the corporatist model, 166 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,000 and that was its first real long form political testament, 167 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:28,679 was the coming corporate state, and then attracted again not 168 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,480 only the praise at Keenes, but guys like George Bernard Shaw. 169 00:12:32,759 --> 00:12:35,960 And Shaw was still addressing Fabian society meetings, but he 170 00:12:36,039 --> 00:12:42,000 was talking like a fascist, you know. And even in 171 00:12:42,039 --> 00:12:47,240 the twentieth century, I mean, even even in the Inner Warriors, 172 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:53,799 a lot of people still who weren't particularly sympathetic to 173 00:12:53,879 --> 00:13:00,519 communism or particularly left wing in their colleagues. That's just 174 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:06,919 where the animating energy was in political life. That's they 175 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,519 gravitated to. I mean, obviously after ninety forty five, that's 176 00:13:12,519 --> 00:13:17,840 where anybody with any radical inclination was funneled due because 177 00:13:19,399 --> 00:13:22,519 the Zech guys wouldn't permit anything else, because anything else 178 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,080 would have been a fool's errand. But the fastest perspective 179 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,360 in the UK I'm not going to continent was a 180 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:34,519 minority perspective, you know, not as much of one as 181 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,639 the Home Office wanted to do allege, but it wasn't. 182 00:13:36,919 --> 00:13:39,399 It was a minority perspective, and only certain kinds of 183 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:46,679 men found a home there. And uh so that's important 184 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,799 to that's important to understand. I think some people who 185 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,879 don't understand the history, they've got a tendency to consider 186 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,879 mostly in some because they watched bullshit like Peaky Blinders 187 00:13:59,879 --> 00:14:03,240 and they had this say, they had this character in 188 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:06,080 their mind of Moseley as being is being like George 189 00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:08,799 Linking rock Well, but with a laming accent or something 190 00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:11,840 that's completely off base, you know, Like I said, that's 191 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,879 one of the reasons why despite what I view of 192 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,759 as some of his blind spots in the post Warriors 193 00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:21,240 and Moseley is a hero of mine. He was a 194 00:14:21,279 --> 00:14:27,559 great man. And you know, in part I consider on 195 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:32,440 those terms because he he was a sophisticated political theorist 196 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,840 and as was Mussolini in his own right, and must 197 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:39,120 Leny was kind of the kind of like the right 198 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:43,879 wing lenin you know, uh Mosey wasn't just a tadle 199 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:48,879 least sophisticated guy and like a tough, individually very sophisticated 200 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,360 view of politics and a lot of that ode I 201 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,279 believe too, you know, his familial lineage and things. But 202 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,320 it was October nineteen thirty one that's been more formally 203 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:08,679 broke with conventional politics, and in part, like I just mentioned, 204 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:12,039 that was because of what he observed as the experience 205 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,000 of the Independent Labor Party. And for clarity, the Independent 206 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:23,360 Labor Party broke with the mainstream labor rights because they 207 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,440 viewed them as basically like a stop gap is either 208 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,039 like a they view people like McDonald is kind of 209 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:35,799 like trying to force a stop gap solution whereby you know, 210 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,759 a parliamentary solution because you know, where were some concessions 211 00:15:39,799 --> 00:15:42,960 would be granted to the laboring classes, but essentially the 212 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,879 system would remain as it is, or they viewed it 213 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:51,200 as a you know, a mechanism of active sabotage of 214 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:59,720 revolutionary ambitions, okay. And as the Independent Labor Party developed, 215 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,440 you know, a direct action capability at a presence on 216 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:09,559 the street, like the communists began not first they began 217 00:16:09,639 --> 00:16:11,720 disrupting them, and then when they didn't quit what they 218 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,759 were doing in the communists started violently assaulting them. Like 219 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,559 it got so violent that the ILP they couldn't carry 220 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:22,679 on the business of electioneering. You And Mose was looking 221 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,679 at this, and Molesey is like, Okay, if this, if 222 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:27,039 this is the way that, if this the way the 223 00:16:27,159 --> 00:16:33,039 left is treating one of their own sectarian tendencies, you know, 224 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,519 we're we're we're we're tripping over our own feet proverbially speaking, 225 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,519 and thinking that you know, some kind of some kind 226 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:44,240 of patriotic alternative to the Tories or the you know 227 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:47,679 or the National Unity Party as it was called, is viable, 228 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:55,799 you know. And one of the uh, John Beckett, who 229 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:02,279 uh himself had been then one of the main organizers 230 00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:08,160 of the i l P before they before they disbanded 231 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,279 for a practical purposes, it set up his own defense force, 232 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,960 you know, like like sting up to long type element 233 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:20,319 because he'd been a boxer, you know, and he ultimately 234 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,559 clicked up with Mosley when Moseley set up the New 235 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Party and this kind of became the background of the 236 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,640 British this kind of became the backbone of the British 237 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,480 Union of Fascists, you know, like guys like this, you know, 238 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,880 and UH. This is also when the seed was planted 239 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:48,480 in his mind of a cultivating a direct action element 240 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:53,640 like a party militia, which preceded the British Union of Fascists, 241 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,240 you know at UH the like like that. The new 242 00:17:58,279 --> 00:18:05,960 Party youth movement was UH was was as mostly called them, 243 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,799 the shock troops as well as the security etchelon of 244 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,720 the New Party. And this became a lot more formalized 245 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,680 obviously as the b UF became the British Union a 246 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:21,920 Fascists and they were the first guys to wear the 247 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:28,960 UH where the you know, the the flash and the circle. 248 00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:32,240 You know it represents action within unity. But originally it 249 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:38,559 was it was the UH. It was the direct action element, 250 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:44,160 the you know, the youth corps that that wore those. 251 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,440 And then because initially the pretash ingon a fascist, their 252 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,960 symbol was a fascists just like the Italians. Totally but 253 00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:53,319 surely it developed its own aesthetic. And incidentally, you know, 254 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,039 Mostley had been a champion fencer and he kept it 255 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,799 up like even into his political career. The British Unit 256 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:03,440 of Fascist black uniform. It looks like a futurist kind 257 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,480 of thing, and and it is. But the U the 258 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:11,839 tunic is a fencing tunic, like painted or dyed black, 259 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,319 you know, in part because it's it was it's like 260 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,680 a primitive form of body armor. But also uh, it 261 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,920 was supposed to represent uh like uh kind of like 262 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,680 the dialectical collision and resolution of you know, like the 263 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,839 past and like things like swordsmanship with like the future, 264 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,559 you know, which I think is really cool. But and 265 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:41,119 it was also distinctive from both the National Socialists and 266 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:47,680 and and uh the National Fascist Party in Italy. But 267 00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:55,000 it was in October of thirty one that uh, it's 268 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,599 kind of that that's like the seminal date that you know, 269 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:08,079 like mostly abandoned parliamentarism. But the Mosie also he held 270 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,799 something in common with Kadrianu. He didn't know Kadrianu. I 271 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:15,200 think he probably knew i on Mota. And I'll get 272 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,000 into why. I think that as we proceed i on 273 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:24,160 Mota was the right hand man of Kadrianu. He fell 274 00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:28,119 fighting the Communists in Spain and he was very much martyred. 275 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,640 Vasil Madin who is his comrade, another Iron Guard guy. 276 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,039 They're about k I A and this was like a 277 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:40,839 this was like a a rallying point for fascists when 278 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:47,440 when they were killed, and Mota had an internationalist few 279 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,839 of fascism, which I find which is important to our discussion. 280 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:56,400 But so it it's interesting on its own, interesting on 281 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:09,519 on its own terms. But the yeah, interestingly too, the UH, 282 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:16,559 the New Party, UH youth militia. These guys at first 283 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,079 were surreptitiously attending Communist meetings to kind of see what 284 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,319 their ops were doing. But they ended up actually poaching 285 00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:29,119 a fair number of Communist members to their ranks, which 286 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,400 is interesting. And these guys moved in a lot of 287 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,079 similar social circles and mostly did them very deliberately. Like 288 00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:39,160 the reason I made I drew the analogy to Quadriana 289 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,240 in the early Iron Guard mostly believed very much. He said, 290 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,160 we got to concentrate on like a cell structure, and 291 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:47,920 you've got to do stuff like insinuating, you know, our 292 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,880 peoples into athletic clubs and like social clubs, but where 293 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,519 people are serious, you know, it's like we need to 294 00:21:55,559 --> 00:22:01,880 post the youngsters, you know, for for the for the 295 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,960 youth militia you know, from like boxing and fencing clubs. 296 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,920 You know, we need we need to poach older guys, 297 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,599 you know, from like the Fabian Society, and some of 298 00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:14,359 these guys who you know are are you know, bright 299 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,200 intellectual lights in the communist movement, but who obviously don't 300 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,400 really belong their own to their patriotic bonafides, which was 301 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,920 which might seem like a forearm conclusion, but the UK 302 00:22:25,079 --> 00:22:27,079 is not America and like it's not the same thing. 303 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,920 You know that that was actually pretty radical thinking and 304 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,400 not particularly easy to accomplish. But one of the things 305 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,680 about Mosley being a lesser aristocrat and it's like unique 306 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:55,319 background and his family's heritage literally of crushing radical elements 307 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,799 and his ability to kind of like move in different circles, 308 00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:01,480 as well as the fact he was a genuine man 309 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,240 of action, this like allowed him to kind of jump 310 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:11,759 the the class and cast barriers, which to this day 311 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,359 remained quite rigid in the UK for like a developed country. 312 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:30,720 It's it's anachronistic, you know, but uh, and what's most 313 00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:35,000 and what I think I I mean, I think it's 314 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:41,039 I think it's someone indisputable, you know, Moseley, despite Diana 315 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:44,799 Moseley's personal friendship with Adolf Hitler, which was a very 316 00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:48,440 real thing. That's not Home Office propaganda and it's not 317 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:55,559 creative license like court historians it was. It was very real. 318 00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:06,720 But aside from all of that and the superficial commonalities 319 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:11,240 between the National Socialists and the BUF, Mosey was first 320 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,400 and foremost a fascist, you know, and his view of 321 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:21,160 fascism was distinct. It wasn't merely derivative. But I'll get 322 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,039 into such that the Italians developed a fascist and called 323 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:28,559 it a Fascist International, which had some success, And I'll 324 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:32,200 get into that because it's important. One of the reasons 325 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,640 they liked Moseley. It wasn't just because he liaised with 326 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,319 them personally and that made Mussolini feel important and the 327 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:46,000 obviously had a genuine rapport. But also mose Mosey didn't 328 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,480 abide National Socialist race doctrine, you know, he just didn't 329 00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:55,440 like That's not to say it was something egalitarian. He 330 00:24:55,559 --> 00:24:59,279 was very anti Jewish, though not not in like racialist terms. 331 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:04,240 He was very pro white vis a vis the white 332 00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:06,319 dominions of the UK and what do you imagine the 333 00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:09,279 future of them being. But you know, he didn't have 334 00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:11,880 any time for this kind of stuff that guys like 335 00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:15,319 Arnold Leis did you know, who spend his days kind 336 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:21,279 of pouring over stuff that Julius Striker published or you know, 337 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:26,720 this kind of a Darwinian racialist stuff and is a 338 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,680 model for for a political doctrine, you know, And and 339 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:37,079 the Italians approved of it. I don't think a lot 340 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,279 of the National Socialist leadership cast didn't go for that either, 341 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,759 but a lot did. And Germany, like the United States, 342 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:48,440 that's something people just accepted. They thought that that's they 343 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,559 thought that that was the essence of racial persona, if 344 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:56,720 you will. My friend Giles was nice enough to publish 345 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,759 an article I wrote on that I guess more of 346 00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:10,079 an essay really, but you know, the ninety thirty one also, 347 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,200 I mean, this is when Keenes is openly this when 348 00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:20,079 King was openly banging mostly as a progressive thinker and 349 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:26,119 an important man. You know, Keenes had sympathized with the 350 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,920 national government when he viewed it as viable, and that 351 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,880 wasn't unusual. I actually have some respect for Ramsey McDonald, 352 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,799 like we talked about last time, and I think the 353 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:38,640 time before, I think McDonald was in an impossible situation 354 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,799 and as a head of government and a parliamentary system. Okay, 355 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,160 I mean you take the fall for the failure of 356 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:51,279 that government or coalition. Okay, But you know, Kings, I 357 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:55,960 think Keens was is essentially worthless as an economist in 358 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:01,160 terms of you know, true economic theory. But I understand 359 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,599 the limitations of the time, and frankly that's why everybody 360 00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:10,279 became a Kingsian, this idea that you know, it's a 361 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,519 kind of embrace of anarchism to just put the nuances 362 00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:19,319 of of a of of of a rapidly integrating global 363 00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:22,680 economy just you know, be like left to left to 364 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:27,079 fate or chance, you know, the the inability to to 365 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,960 code data correctly and to identify what variables must be coded, 366 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:40,440 and most importantly, the inability to register information in real time, 367 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,480 which we didn't acquire until the two thousands. Really, you know, 368 00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:48,319 I make the point again and again that some you know, 369 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,079 some of even something like the crash of eighty seven, 370 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,720 like wouldn't happen or couldn't happen again, like structurally is precluded, 371 00:27:53,799 --> 00:28:00,799 but you know it, it's the equivalent of it's like 372 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:07,079 talking about it'd be like, uh, throwing shade on pythagorasts. 373 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:09,359 This is probably not imperfect analogy because I'm not a 374 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,839 mathma a math guy at all. I'd be like throwing 375 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,960 shade a pathagorists because to him, like the theoretical math 376 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:24,440 was restricted by you know, like available instruments like an amicus. Okay, 377 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,440 the technology is just positive in these things, especially when 378 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:36,200 you're talking about systems where you know, variables and the 379 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,599 ability to corral, identify them, corral them, and calculate them 380 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,839 or is entirely contingent upon high tech, you know. And 381 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,279 this is exacerbated in economics because time is of the 382 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,880 essence in a way is not and other endeavors except 383 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,519 for maybe warfare. I'm sure Marxist would have something to 384 00:28:56,519 --> 00:28:59,839 say about that. That's a truce, but uh, I think 385 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:07,400 so to understand what I mean, you know, and the 386 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,680 Keenes also accepted. Uh. He basically accepted Moses's paradigm of 387 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:15,839 politics moving forward, that it was going to become very 388 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,920 binary and one of the few things Shumpeter is always 389 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400 putting out and Keenes that agreed on was that a 390 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,279 communist revolution is probably inevitable. You know. Schumpeter thought this 391 00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:31,720 could be staved off by concessions of the body politique 392 00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:38,880 and by you know, a prosperity having a you know, 393 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,920 his corrective functions set in in the in the globalizing economy, 394 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,480 that would have an effect of kind of neutralizing the 395 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:52,960 most radical elements. But Keenes was looking at this as 396 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,599 basically a neutral arbiter, and he's like, okay, you know, 397 00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:01,480 if if you want to preclude a so style nightmare here, 398 00:30:01,519 --> 00:30:05,279 there's got to be some kind of planned economy. And 399 00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:09,920 the corporate state was basically it was basically kind of 400 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,720 like a demand cider's dream. And I would argue that 401 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:22,480 the strange as it might seem as a model of 402 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:30,799 administrative efficiency, I think that the British system of the 403 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,839 nineteen twenties and thirties, like the inter war system, I 404 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:39,000 think it was uniquely situated to administer something like the 405 00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:44,039 corporate the corporatist model it was. It would not have 406 00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:47,079 led to long term prosperity. There would have been terrible problems, 407 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:53,000 but in terms of mitigating the initial crisis and facilitating 408 00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:56,480 short term development in a punctuated way, which in turn 409 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:01,279 would have generated real capital. I think it probably would 410 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:06,440 have worked very well. Okay. I don't want somebody to 411 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,759 cut that out of contact and then say I'm some 412 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,839 kind of fuckhead Keenesian, because I'm not at all, Okay, 413 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,839 So please don't do that. I mean, it's funny sometimes 414 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,000 when people do that, but that's that wouldn't be funny. 415 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:22,440 I mean, it would be you know what I mean. 416 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:32,799 In the event, January nineteen thirty two is when that's 417 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:39,240 when Moldy made it second visit the room, and that's 418 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:45,759 when Moldy truly became a fascist. Okay, and Mossoleni very 419 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,759 much kind of cultivated this. I mean, I don't I 420 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:49,440 don't think. I don't. I don't think Mosley was some 421 00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:53,920 kind of simpleton and it was taken in by the 422 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,440 the kind of hero cult of Little Duche. I mean, 423 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,000 I'm sure he was somewhat. I mean, anybody would be like, 424 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,039 like Mussolini was an impressive man, and he was a 425 00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:04,920 man's man and just a remarkable guy. But I you know, 426 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,680 mostly was young, but he'd you know, he was a 427 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:15,240 combat veteran, he he was a he was an aristocrat. 428 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:19,440 He was a natural leader like he He wasn't somebody 429 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,920 who was snowed or by this kind of thing. You know, 430 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,960 why did why did Mussolini cultivate mostly so much? I mean, 431 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,000 I think especially when initially there's mutual respect, but there 432 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:40,720 was a coldness that Mussolini exhibited towards Hitler. In contrast, okay, 433 00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:43,920 like you has a few things. You know, the Italians, 434 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:49,079 despite what they might say then or now, they they 435 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,240 want the approval of the British, you know, I mean 436 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,279 the British kind of cult not kind of the British 437 00:32:56,279 --> 00:33:00,240 do kind of covet the aspects of their own a 438 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:04,279 racial and national character that are lacking and that are 439 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:10,960 expressed with great vitality and in continental people and specifically, 440 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,319 you know, people as in passionate as the Italians. But 441 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:17,039 you know, there's a there was a huge prestige in 442 00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:20,039 those days to the British Empire, and it's like some 443 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,880 vestige of that indoors today, albeit at a shadow of 444 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,200 its former self. But so there is that. But also 445 00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:33,400 you know, contra the National Socialists and Hitler specifically, this 446 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,720 caused some tension with Hitler in the SS. That's way 447 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:39,000 too much of a tangent, but you know, other than 448 00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:42,559 the independent State of Croatia, which was a totally unique case. 449 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,440 And the relationship of the Croats is that people of 450 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,000 the Germans is unique. The only thing comparable really is 451 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,160 like the Serbs are to the to the Russians. But 452 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:03,720 the Hitler government, out of their way to disabuse anybody 453 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:08,079 of you know, including their staunch allies, of any sense 454 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:10,480 that we're going to try and model our government on 455 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:16,880 the national social estate. The fascists are trying to cultivate 456 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,199 something very different. Now people forget this. It's kind of 457 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,159 been lost to history, kind of like the Four Powers 458 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:31,360 packed in part because I think it it conflicts with 459 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,639 the sort of simple minded narrative of what fascism represented 460 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,719 Mussolini had. I can't read or pronounce Italian, It's not 461 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:56,599 even going to try. Mussolini convened this office within the 462 00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:02,639 party and within the government. It translated to the Action 463 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,559 Committee for the Universality of Rome. That's kind of a 464 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:14,360 bassardized translation like that basically, like like the colloquially it 465 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,559 translates to, you know, like office for like the promotion 466 00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:21,880 of the Roman culture or you know, like or the 467 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:29,000 Roman political education. It was basically like it's basically common 468 00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:35,159 form became later okay for the Soviet Union, and its 469 00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:41,039 purpose was to identify fascist tendencies and friendly states, as 470 00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:49,480 well as movements behind enemy lines that could be cultivated 471 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:54,760 and brought into you know, it's like an internationalist political tendency. 472 00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:59,239 So it's culminated in the nineteen thirty four Mantrue Fascist 473 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,920 Conference Switzerland, also known not incorrectly and not as colloquially 474 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,840 as the Fascist International, the first Fascist International Congress. It 475 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,719 was held in December nineteen thirty four, in the sixteenth 476 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:25,639 and seventeenth and there was a There was representatives of 477 00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:31,480 what had been identified by the Action Committee for the 478 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:38,960 Universality of Rome as bona fide fascist movements in something 479 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:43,039 like over thirty countries, but such that it was. The 480 00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:49,239 delegates came from thirteen different states, including Ion Mota from Romania, 481 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,760 you know, the Iron Guard Quizzling was there, the Greek 482 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:05,880 National Socialists and a delegation one of the Falangist deputies came, 483 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:15,239 but the Phalangists, like Command Element, refused to endorse it 484 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,559 because they claimed the Falange are not fascists. The Irish 485 00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:28,559 Blue Shirts sent a delegation the movement Front Ciste, which 486 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:35,440 was not affiliated with Charles and Moross's movement. They identified 487 00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:40,519 explicitly as fascists. And what became of them, I think 488 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:48,360 a lot of them ended up being folded into various 489 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,480 militias because they kind of disappear from the historical record 490 00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:56,679 by nineteen thirty seven thirty eight. So that's part of 491 00:37:56,679 --> 00:37:59,159 the problem is I can't I can't even read like 492 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,159 passable friends, so like I mean, I can read passable German. 493 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:11,639 But there was a Baltic contingent Salazar uh some representative 494 00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,000 of the Salazar's movement. You know, you get the idea. 495 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:18,559 You know, there was a some of the some of 496 00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:29,199 the Austrian national Catholic types. Belgium had sent a contingent, 497 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,480 so did the Danes, the Netherlands. You know, you get 498 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,000 the idea, and there was an indigenous like Swiss element. Obviously, 499 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:45,880 notably absent was any delegation the Third Reich. There weren't 500 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,360 any of the Austrian National socialist present. But at that 501 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,360 time there was a delicate minuet going on between them 502 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,719 and Mussolini, especially because they were waging an insurgency campaigning 503 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,119 as Dolphus and they actually ended up murdering him. I mean, 504 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:04,239 which is that would would, to say the least, cast 505 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:10,760 some real consternation between old Duce and the fear. But 506 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:17,559 that uh and Mussolini, there weren't that. There was obviously 507 00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:22,719 like Italians, elements of the Italian government Fascist government were 508 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,360 facilitating organizing it, but there weren't any like there weren't 509 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,840 any like ideological commissars there from like the Fascist Party, 510 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,719 because mostly he wanted to see he didn't want he said, 511 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:40,039 he wanted to get like an accurate rendering without you know, 512 00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:45,599 people trying to jockey for like favoritism, money, geo strategic benefit, 513 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,559 you know, from from the party. It was basically put 514 00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:53,559 these put these men in a room and like see 515 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:56,559 what they do, and see what their priorities are, and 516 00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:00,599 you know, see if we can properly call them stituate 517 00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:06,559 representative of the constituent elements of an international tendency. Mosley 518 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:10,920 did not attend, and he did that for very specific 519 00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:16,719 reasons because by this point, as I just mentioned, I mean, 520 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,679 this was this was late nineteen thirty four. Not only 521 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,280 was Hitler reichs Consler, but the Reichsteig Fire Decreed had 522 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:30,280 been passed there was a state of emergency. The National 523 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,639 Socialists were also like busy passing laws like disenfranchising Jews politically, 524 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:41,320 so all over the British press, moss opts are saying 525 00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:45,800 Mosley is a Nazi, Mosley is an agent of the 526 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,519 Kingdom of Italy. You know, Mosley is this anti Semite 527 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,400 who has been insinuated into or a mist because owing 528 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,239 to failing political fortunes, he looked abroad and he's basically 529 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,599 like a paid asset, you know. And this man, this 530 00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:05,840 man should be behind bars, you know. And if we 531 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,760 can't put him behind bars, you know, we we we 532 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,039 we we need to shame him and and you know, 533 00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:17,360 expose him as as this is this genocidal, biological racialist 534 00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:22,920 or whatever. But first and fore, first and forest concern 535 00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:29,360 was the deprive the enemy in the domestic press and 536 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,079 these this element that became the focus later, deprive them 537 00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,039 of of the ammunition to claim that Moti was some 538 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:43,400 kind of foreign agent or foreign asset, you know. And 539 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,320 that was that was wise. But you know, I emphasized 540 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,119 that because I mean for a few reasons, not just 541 00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:57,480 because it's essential to understanding kind of the various iterations 542 00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:05,000 of the revolutionary right in the inner warriors. But you know, 543 00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:09,440 the fascists, like the capital f fascists, whether you're talking 544 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:16,559 about whether you're talking about Mostly, whether you're talking about Mussolini, 545 00:42:17,559 --> 00:42:21,840 whether you're talking about Ion Mota and uh, some of 546 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,079 these Iron Guard partisans, these guys were basically adjusting for 547 00:42:26,159 --> 00:42:34,760 cultural discrete cultural tendencies and animating elements. These guys that 548 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,159 were basically the ideological progeny of George Sorell. You know, 549 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,400 they they viewed themselves as arguably you know, they believed 550 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,119 that they believed in a total kind of regeneration of 551 00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:52,519 the race and the national community and a new conceptualization 552 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,880 of of of man in the twentieth century. But at 553 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,360 the end of the day, you know, they they came. 554 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,719 They were emergent from you know, not just the spiritual 555 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,280 crisis of the Western world, but the radicalism of the 556 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,880 labor movement. You know, when something had to change. What 557 00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:17,639 was imperative was not to allow, not not to allow 558 00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:20,760 the Communists and in their estimation, you know, the Jews, 559 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:27,920 to subvert this historical momentum, you know, to destroy the 560 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,960 national community or the racial community or like a rip 561 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:38,480 man out of historical existence. But that's very different than 562 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,199 the way the National Socialists approached things, you know, like 563 00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:47,559 like Hitler wasn't a fascist, you know. And I'm not 564 00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:50,840 being I'm not being obtuse and saying, oh, because he 565 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,239 was a National Socialist. I mean that goes not saying, 566 00:43:53,320 --> 00:44:00,639 but Hitler was something very different, as were the men 567 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,519 in his inner circle. As we're the control group of 568 00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:09,760 the of the NSDAP who were somewhat with the Hitler 569 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,159 had something of a contentious relationship with despite the fear 570 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,119 of Prinsip and everything else. But even but even even 571 00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:20,519 the National Socialists who found themselves kind of at odds 572 00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:26,079 with Hitler, doctrinally, they represented something very different, you know, 573 00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:35,599 And that's important. And I think that because you know, 574 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:45,800 Shorthand for marcis Lennon is Shorthand for all their enemies 575 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:54,519 basically is fascist. And that's something I think because I think, 576 00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:58,519 because people in America generally are kind of intellectually impoverished 577 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:04,400 in matters of politics, the kind of simpleton like liberal 578 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,719 laugh sort of like appropriated that vocabulary, you know, and 579 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,800 there's an unfortunate tendency of people to kind of accept 580 00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:21,760 these things as colloquialisms, which is a very deleterious effect 581 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,840 on on the ability to the conceptualize stuff accurately. But 582 00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:29,199 I think that's a lot of this misunderstanding comes from 583 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,079 it's like, oh, anybody, anybody who the left uses their 584 00:45:33,119 --> 00:45:36,719 ops and anybody who's European and you know, right wing 585 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,400 but not a conservative, Oh, they're fascists. Like that's not 586 00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:44,320 that's not constructive, and it's it's it's it's particularly inaccurate. 587 00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:50,679 In the case of the National Socialists. I highly recommandur 588 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,519 and so Nolty's Three Faces of Fascism. That was his 589 00:45:54,599 --> 00:46:00,679 first major word translated into English, and he act away 590 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:08,400 from some of the some of the UH epistemological claims 591 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,400 contain they're in and some of the conclusions. But I 592 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:17,239 I I I don't find any substantial flaw with its 593 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:23,480 methodology or its conceptual paradigm. If you want to understand 594 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,360 what I'm talking about here, that's a very good starting point. 595 00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:33,480 But let me check for me to see how long 596 00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:37,079 of them going. Okay, yeah, I would definitely have to 597 00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:40,679 like wrap it up in a a in another episode 598 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,360 before you tell me that's okay. I just didn't I 599 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,320 didn't want to monopolate that I don't want to monopolize 600 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,840 your time or be too long winded on this topic 601 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,119 if it was making people bored or they wanted to 602 00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:55,800 move on. But yeah, I don't think anyone. 603 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is bored and wants to move on. 604 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 2: So yeah, no, No, I get it probably gets conscious 605 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,840 and ways that I shouldn't. I think it's a whole 606 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,760 over from when I was young and I used to 607 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,320 worry a lot about that kind of stuff. No feedback, 608 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,239 I mean, obviously you can work direct feedback on this 609 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,440 than I because it's your show. But it's been uniformly positive. 610 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,679 But I I still worry about it sometimes, man, and 611 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:26,519 especially when somebody's kind enough to, you know, gift me 612 00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:34,199 with a platform and discuss stuff with me. But the uh, 613 00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:44,039 one of the things it was right around it was 614 00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:46,159 March ninety thirty two, so I mean right around a 615 00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:49,760 lot of these critical events, but before the before the 616 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,400 fascist International Tolerance, when we've mostly been back from Italy 617 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,320 for a couple of months. The BUF was you know, 618 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,960 formally kind of being launched in uh politically in the 619 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,960 Political Quarterly, which was kind of like Foreign Affairs magazine 620 00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:11,280 is here, but like more widely circulated, like basically everybody 621 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,679 read it. It was politically engaged, you know, like regardless of 622 00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:20,039 their ideological struke. Moty kind of laid out the case 623 00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:24,960 for fascism, but he did so from like a very 624 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:30,280 in a very Hegelian way. He said, look, we are 625 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,159 in the UK specifically, is in the midst of a crisis. 626 00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:37,960 You know. He's like, materially like, obviously the Germans were 627 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,440 hit harder than us, but politically our system is wasn't 628 00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,760 is in greater crisis than any other, you know. And 629 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,159 he said this crisis has produced new parties, new new 630 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,519 types of men, in new forces. And he said that 631 00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:57,199 the only way this crisis can be met, let alone mitigated, 632 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,960 is by men who quote turn their backs on the 633 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,559 old world and on the old political system. He said 634 00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:10,840 that communism it won't just supersede social democrats and labor rights, 635 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,000 it will smash them, you know. He said, Conservatives think 636 00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:16,679 that they can bring these people, that they can you know, 637 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,719 kind of gel with these people or cut them off 638 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,440 with the knees by bringing them into the coalition. He's like, 639 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,880 the they that's not possible, you know, because he's like, 640 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,039 they're operating on the assumptions that were just enumerated, you know, 641 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,360 like they are that vanguard of new men. And he 642 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:38,079 said only the corporate state can defeat the Bolsheviks, because 643 00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,000 he says, not only does the corporate state present a 644 00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:45,760 model for you know, economic planning that on the one 645 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:51,000 hand doesn't leave you know, macroeconomic decision making to chance, 646 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,199 but it also doesn't strangle the golden goose, and it 647 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,000 like allows private capital you know, to reap the benefit 648 00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:04,360 of its bargain and incentivizes you know, investment in the nation. 649 00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:09,760 But he said also like out of this structure, you know, 650 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,400 will comes like a defense mechanism of like men who 651 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,800 are like mobilized in service to the nation already, you know, 652 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:25,480 and who have a stake in the corporate is enterprise 653 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,880 and contain therein is you know, a very kind of 654 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:37,840 brass tax political education that draws very sharply the distinction 655 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,079 between you know, friend and enemy with respect to the 656 00:50:43,079 --> 00:50:46,920 internal situation. You know. So he says that this is 657 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:54,719 imperative you know, to basically not not just to guard 658 00:50:55,079 --> 00:51:01,360 the empire and guard the racial community and to uh 659 00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:08,719 protect uh Britain's political system from you know, destruction and 660 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,519 subversion from within, but he said it's also necessary to 661 00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:21,760 create and generate basically uh they basically uh an apparatus 662 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,840 that they can inculcate, you know, men with the necessary 663 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,719 political doctrine. You know, he's like, basically like by creating 664 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,400 the structure, which will then force a direct confrontation with 665 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:41,000 the communists, it will become very very clear like who 666 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,679 is the friends are of the working man and and 667 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,280 who is not And those that would seek to subvert 668 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,440 it will quickly be exposed as people who you know 669 00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:56,039 want to destroy any patriotic impulse which they view as 670 00:51:56,119 --> 00:52:01,280 vestigil and reactionary, you know, in uh in Englishman specifically, 671 00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:09,440 so you know, he was making his case not just 672 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:16,320 for political economy of a Keynesian stripe, but like with teeth. 673 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,679 But he was also suggesting that this is the only 674 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,920 structure that can facilitate you know, national salvation and like 675 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:35,800 the basic defense of life in capital. And he wasn't 676 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,920 wrong about the conditions emergent, you know. And I don't 677 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,880 think people realize that in this country. I think they 678 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,840 have some idea that the UK is kind of like 679 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,239 America Light or something, or just like a smaller version 680 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,679 they don't like they don't understand the degree to which 681 00:52:55,639 --> 00:52:58,920 revolutionary communism had had momentum there. You know, it's not 682 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,599 an accident, you know, like it's not acting. The Cambridge 683 00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:05,159 five were these like society type guys, you know, like 684 00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:09,719 it wasn't it wasn't just like shop stewards and like angry, 685 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,679 uh you know, kind of middle class types who who 686 00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:18,719 and in the British sense that means something very different 687 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,920 than here, you know, who who realized that you know, 688 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,159 they're kind of saddled with diminishing returns and in the 689 00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:28,000 industrial system kind of found themselves in the role of 690 00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:33,280 like underpaid overseer. You know. The these these were guys 691 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,920 like him, Philby and his friends. These guys were like 692 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,679 the best and the brightest, you know, I mean, and 693 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:46,119 that they weren't outliers and uh, the in the in 694 00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:51,039 the British system, guys like that were groomed for certain 695 00:53:51,199 --> 00:53:56,800 roles within the within the empire. You know. You you 696 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,800 can't just chalk it up like oh, that's just limousine 697 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,960 liberalism or that's oh that's just rich people being you know, commies. 698 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,360 It's this you can't explain it away like that. It's 699 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:17,199 something very different the UH. But it was that October 700 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,800 nineteen thirty two, right around the time that Motley turned 701 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:29,440 thirty six years of age, that the British Union of 702 00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:35,800 Fascists was officially formed with the thirty two founding members 703 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:43,119 who kind of became the alt comfort. One of the 704 00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:53,440 most important UH figures, personages rather in the party was 705 00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:59,760 Raven Thompson. And I probably enough time to fully flesh 706 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:10,119 it up out in this hour, but but yeah, the 707 00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:19,159 the degree which two the kind of UH, the kind 708 00:55:19,159 --> 00:55:22,880 of internal mythology the b u F you know, like 709 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,039 what what Mosey and the members and and and men 710 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:32,840 like Raven Thompson, who was the propaganda officer. These guys 711 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,239 were very is very much Uhianism through the lens of 712 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,480 Bernard Shaw. And make no mistake like Shaw was very 713 00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:52,880 much and I'm kind of fascinated by He was writing 714 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,320 about the tragedy of the Commons and I can't remember 715 00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:03,800 the name of the essay, and he famously, uh, he 716 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:09,360 famously said that Jack the Ripper was UH was a 717 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:15,119 great eugenicist and he was like performing an invaluable service 718 00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:20,400 and he was serious about that. He was serious about 719 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,760 that kind of stuff. But he wasn't just being He 720 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,679 wasn't just being like an eccentric limey who likes to 721 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,599 make taste as jokes about like cutting up hookers or something. 722 00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:31,199 I mean, yeah, there was some element of that too, 723 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:40,440 but you know, this kind of consolation of ideological and 724 00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:50,760 UH and kind of conceptual tendencies from like George Bernard 725 00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:59,199 Shaw to UH to him, you know, the Fabians that 726 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:05,679 he associated with and in Keens and Mussolini and the 727 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:13,199 kind of direct influence that early on he uh he 728 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:18,639 wielded uh intentionally or not or Moseley. This was a 729 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:25,519 very unusual constellation of aspects, but it was very genuine. 730 00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,920 It wasn't just this kind of grab bag of rationalizations 731 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,000 or something, you know. And it was a very It 732 00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:37,679 was a very British and specifically English fascism, Like there 733 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,960 was a heavy Scottish contingent in the b u F 734 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:46,679 and Ulster guys like interestingly, Billy Fullerton. The Billy Boys 735 00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:57,039 UH of sectarian lore H were founded by Billy Fullerton, 736 00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,719 and he was a b UF. It was even like 737 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,880 a day one uh like b u F Street Fighter, 738 00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:11,280 which seems peculiar on its face in some ways, if 739 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,360 because Moldley was you know, quite sympathetic to the Irish, 740 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:19,960 but it but there's something very there's something very English 741 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:28,760 and in some way Scottish as well, at least in 742 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,599 some aspects of the party that you know, it can't 743 00:58:34,639 --> 00:58:37,760 just be understood as a as a kind of like 744 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,639 a racialist or right wing tendency that oh wrote under 745 00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:48,320 a fascist banner owing to some derivative impulse or something 746 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:53,119 like that. It was very much its own thing. But 747 00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:58,960 we're coming up on an hour, so yeah, let's uh. 748 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,400 I will finish up on Moseley and and the the 749 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,679 Epoch in question next time, and I'll talk about the 750 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:11,079 I'll talk about the British Free Corps, which of course 751 00:59:11,199 --> 00:59:17,760 is uh the Britishers who joined theF SS, some of 752 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,159 whom were British Union of Fascist Veterans. But I think 753 00:59:21,199 --> 00:59:22,360 that would be very good man. 754 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: Alrighty two plugs. 755 00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:31,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very excited to announce that the movie, the 756 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,840 documentary that my dear friend Reke and I made, it's 757 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,480 finally finished. So I'm gonna spend this like, the editing 758 00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:40,800 is finished and stuff. I plan to spend this weekend 759 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,280 figuring out the best way to upload it. So that 760 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,199 people can see it. I haven't decided where I'm gonna Ideally, 761 00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:50,000 I'm want to upload it the sub stack. I don't 762 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:51,760 know if it's possible yet. I might have to upload 763 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:56,920 it the gum road. But believe me, everybody will shout 764 00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,119 it out on all my social media. It won't be 765 00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:06,800 hard to find. My substack is uh real Thomas seven 766 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:12,360 seven seven dot substack dot com. I'm also on Instagram, 767 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:18,079 I'm on x I'm like many many places. My social 768 01:00:18,199 --> 01:00:23,079 media alts is at number seven H O M A 769 01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:28,280 S seven seven seven dot com. That's what I've got, all. 770 01:00:28,239 --> 01:01:06,320 Speaker 1: Right, it's all part six. Thank you, tomashsh