WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:05.360 Sequential art is a valid medium. I called it sequential 2 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:08.080 art for want of a better name. I've always been 3 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:11.560 annoyed from the very first day of my involvement in 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:14.800 comics of the use of the word comics. Comics is 5 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.719 a misnomer. Comics should not be comical. They should not 6 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:24.879 be necessarily funny, as in the case of funny papers. 7 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:33.840 This is a valid medium of expression, equal in respectability 8 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:54.640 if you will, to words without pictures or to film. 9 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:57.520 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 10 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:01.759 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 11 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:06.000 Joey Angelfield. Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind 12 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.680 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a Dot 13 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:12.400 Cabareine Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the 14 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:17.200 American West in Atheist United Studios, Hey, Joey. Graphic novels 15 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:20.319 are a billion dollar industry, but they didn't really exist 16 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:24.040 until nineteen seventy eight, when Will Eisner published A Contract 17 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:28.519 with God. A magnificent new graphic biography tells Eisner's amazing 18 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.480 story from lowly cartoonists to creator of the spirit to 19 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.400 innovator of literary comics. 20 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.319 We're excited to talk with Stephen Weiner and Dan Maser, 21 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:41.040 whose latest book is Will Eisner, a Comics Biography published 22 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:45.439 by MBM Graphic Novels. Stephen and Dan, Welcome to Amusing Jews. 23 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:47.040 Thanked it's life to be here. 24 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:47.840 Thanks. 25 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.040 Will Eisner was many things, a pioneering comics creator, a 26 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:56.319 successful businessman, an advocate for comics as a literary art form, 27 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.920 and a terrific guy. How would you assess his cultural importance? 28 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:05.079 Well, Will had a tremendous influence on popular culture really 29 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.799 through the fourth of his own will no pun intended 30 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:11.840 through the force of his own drive to succeed, and 31 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.319 he chose comics as a way to succeed. So with 32 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.599 a young man, he because he wasn't he tried to 33 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:23.120 be an artist, a cartoon a cartoonist. Thing wasn't financially successful. 34 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.240 So he created one of the first studios, and he 35 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:29.360 actually was one of the first people to create the 36 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.719 the way comics were actually made. And so because of 37 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:35.560 that innovation, we really have the form that we have 38 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.319 in terms of comics. That's one thing. But he was 39 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:43.960 he was a very restless person, and so he he 40 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.039 got bored with that studio, even though it was it 41 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.360 was very well, very financially successful, and he left it 42 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.280 because he wanted to push the boundaries of comics further 43 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:56.199 and tell different kinds of stories. And one of for 44 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:58.840 many reasons, one of them was he hated superheroes and 45 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:00.439 he didn't want to he didn't want to get involved with 46 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:03.199 that anymore, and so he left it and created a 47 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.080 newspaper supplement that was like the Parade Magazine, and he 48 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:09.719 did the and that you know, this was the spirit 49 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.400 that that was still talking about today. And so he was, 50 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.000 you know, in that way. He really pushed the medium 51 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.800 forward with everything he did. And then when he went 52 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:21.919 into the army, of course he's Will Eisner. So he 53 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.159 found a way to make comics in the army and 54 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:29.039 he created a comics that educational comics to educate the 55 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.360 military and how these equipment and you know that kind 56 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:36.599 of thing. And then he then when that later in 57 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:40.199 the fifties, he started another company that basically built on that. 58 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.280 I did educational materials. He did manuals for corporations he 59 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:48.800 used them for in an educational capacity, and then later 60 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.000 in the seventies when he was brought back into comics, 61 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.159 and he was one of the very first people to 62 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.560 do graphic novels, and he was one of the only 63 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:01.960 person doing them. Like for his or really his demographic 64 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.919 older people that he wasn't They weren't interested in and 65 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.280 you know, sexual revolution and something. They were interested in 66 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:14.240 their lives of that time and their experiences. So every 67 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.959 time he changed, he actually changed what comics could do 68 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.639 and and that way, I think he had a tremendous 69 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:28.920 influence on our culture because he really showed people possibilities 70 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:32.000 every time he made a change. And it's not of 71 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.040 that he and I guess the other thing I would 72 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.920 say is that he implemented his implementation. His execution was 73 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.040 very good too, So it wasn't just he had an 74 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.800 idea and someone else took the idea and did a 75 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.319 good thing with it. He had an idea and even 76 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.560 get how to make the idea work. So it's actually 77 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.279 he was teaching people all the time, really what comics 78 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:53.360 were able to do. That that's my opinion. 79 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.279 Yeah, I think, you know, he started in comic books 80 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.079 really at the very beginning of comic book So his 81 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:05.360 influence on culture as a whole. I think starts starts 82 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:10.639 there because when Will Eisner started making comic book they 83 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:16.480 were so new that really they were mostly reprinted newspaper 84 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:21.160 comics put together and staple. And he was there at 85 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:27.079 the very beginning of doing you know, long form comics stories, 86 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:32.920 which had not been done before. And you know, he 87 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.360 really created how the vocabulary of how to tell a story, 88 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.240 you know, I think, in a very specific to the 89 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:45.959 medium of comics way. And he went beyond that and 90 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.480 added the whole cinematic style the comics that was very 91 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:56.639 influential with angles and lighting and you know, the comics 92 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:59.959 comic stories had been a very sort of theatrical thing 93 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.879 where your imaginary camera is just staying fixed. And I 94 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:08.199 think he really sunk his teeth into that form. And 95 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:15.079 I think his influence on really every comic book artist 96 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:21.279 afterwards can be can be felt. And the other thing 97 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:23.199 I was thinking about it today and I thought he 98 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.439 was kind of like, I know, this is a Jewish program, 99 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.040 but he was kind of like the John the Baptist 100 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:35.319 of serious comics. He was out there in the nineteen 101 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.480 late thirties and forties saying this could be an art form, 102 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.920 this could be in you know, like serious novels. This 103 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:45.079 could be in museums, this could be in classrooms, and 104 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:50.920 nobody believed him. And finally they caught up in the 105 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:56.319 in the sixties. And interestingly, I think one of the 106 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:03.040 one of the main figures in making comic more intellectually acceptable, 107 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:08.240 let's say, was Jules Pfeiffer, who came out who was 108 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.480 first hired by will Eisner and really learned his stuff 109 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:16.000 from Eisner and then did this book on the history 110 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:19.759 of comics that kind of reintroduced Eisner to a new generation. 111 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:22.879 So I think he Eiser and that we kind of 112 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:26.439 acted through through others and even when he did contact 113 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.800 with God kind of the quote unquote first graphic novel 114 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.560 it was. It was moderately successful, but I think it 115 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.639 paved the way for what happened a few years later 116 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.720 with Mouse and a few other books that really made 117 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:45.399 graphic novel explode. So I think his ideas and his 118 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:50.279 own innovations were very influential throughout the whole comics and 119 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:51.879 graphic novel culture. 120 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.120 Yeah. I know that the term graphic novel had been 121 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.759 used before for other context. I think he maybe was 122 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:02.120 the first to apply it to this comic book medium 123 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:04.680 as I understand it, but also as you're saying, it's 124 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.360 kind of the quote unquote first graphic novel a Contract 125 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.800 with God. I think Jules Spifer is another candidate for 126 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.240 first graphic novel with Tantrum, and it's it's kind of 127 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.639 interesting that they both came from the same working relationship 128 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:20.839 and we're both kind of pushing the envelope in that way. 129 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.079 I think Eisner definitely pushed it to a new plateau 130 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:27.560 with Contract with God and kept pushing for the next 131 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.680 twenty five twenty seven years. 132 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:32.320 And the other thing I was going to add to 133 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:37.360 that was that the Eisnd's book preceded the Fire From book. 134 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.679 But one thing's interesting is Eisen's book came up from 135 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:44.159 a very small publisher, and Fire For I forget which house, 136 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:46.159 but it was a major house that brought out Tantrum. 137 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.559 So it was really the Fire For book was really 138 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:53.759 aimed at the book trade, and the Eisne book was 139 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.000 trying to get there, but it really didn't. It didn't 140 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:57.639 have the inroads that the Fifer book had. 141 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:01.440 I know. Another thing that Eisner introduced was this concept 142 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.440 of sequential art as a way of sort of elevating 143 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.399 the art form. Can you speak to that a little bit. 144 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.399 He was always elevating the art form, and I guess 145 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:17.080 he had the sense to know that terminology is important, 146 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:23.000 you know. So you make a long comic book, you 147 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:25.120 call it a graphic novel, and that's going to sound 148 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.399 more respectable. You don't call it comics, you call it 149 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.879 sequential art. I mean, it's all the same thing. I 150 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:39.360 don't think conceptually these phrases change anything, but you know, 151 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:44.519 he was a publicist in a certain way, and he 152 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:47.840 knew that you had to, you know, you change the 153 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:50.279 language and you change the way people see things. 154 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.440 And the other thing that I think is important is 155 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.600 at that time when the industry was trying to figure 156 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.720 out a way to approach the mainstream that there were 157 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:01.960 a lot lot of terms being thrown around. One with 158 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.639 graphic album, one was sequential narrative, one with long comic book. 159 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.799 But they term graphic novel was the one that stuck. 160 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.159 And one of the reasons that did stick because he 161 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:20.080 was so insistent on this term. So he he I don't, Mike, 162 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:23.080 and he did not do the first graphic novel. Whoever 163 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.879 did I'm not sure that's not important but the fact 164 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.360 that he was so committed to it, it means to 165 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:31.840 and that's the way he owns the term because of 166 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.320 his commitment to the forum. 167 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.200 Enjoining the show, Click like and subscribe. If anyone deserves 168 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:42.679 a graphic biography, it's Will Eisner. Was there extra pressure 169 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:43.279 to get it right? 170 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.320 I think there was a certain amount of pressure because 171 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:51.879 you know, there's a will Eisner family foundation that we 172 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.240 didn't work with, we didn't have any formal relationship with, 173 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:00.960 but we certainly wanted them to be happy with the book. Uh, 174 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.840 there was, you know, nothing, No, we weren't. We weren't 175 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:08.799 doing an expose of Will Eisner. We you know, So 176 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:14.360 I think there was that and and I guess most 177 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:20.159 of the people in the book are dead. But at 178 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.120 the end of the book we do a scene with 179 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:29.279 Dennis Kitchen, who was who we who We know he 180 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.480 used to be Steve's agent. So so we had a 181 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:34.840 lot of communication with Dennis Kitchen, and I think that 182 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.960 we probably felt like we didn't want to it's a 183 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:43.799 point Dennis either, especially when we introduced him as a character. 184 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:51.919 But yeah, I mean, I I guess, uh, you know, 185 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:53.519 there are a lot of people out there who know 186 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.480 a lot about Will Eisner, and you know most of 187 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:58.879 it is right, I guess. So you know, we we 188 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.159 weren't trying to controversy or anything like that. 189 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.440 I guess my answer to be would to that question 190 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:09.120 would be that and I knew realized that I n 191 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.600 him for about fifteen years, and I knew him fairly well. 192 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.600 It wasn't uh, And I wanted to write by him, 193 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:21.679 and by that I mean this, this whole book. That 194 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.559 the idea of this book came because it was a 195 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:29.519 response to his graphic novel called The Dreamer and which 196 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.440 which he recounts his own his own childhood and the 197 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.679 early days of the the industry. And I always thought 198 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.559 that was fake. I said, it couldn't have worked out 199 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:45.200 so well, and so so I so I thought I 200 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.600 wanted to do a book that would say what it 201 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:49.279 would be really like for him, how hard it actually was, 202 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:51.759 and how and what a risk it really was for 203 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.360 him to to commit himself this one. There was no 204 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.600 there was no industry what he started. And so my 205 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.480 answer is that I wanted to write by him, by 206 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.240 his memory, and I really wanted to show people that 207 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:12.039 it wasn't just as it wasn't as he presented it. 208 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:09.000 It. 209 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.799 Was a much harder road and he had a much 210 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:17.200 harder battle to fight. And you know, I feel that 211 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.799 we're that we who love comments were is so indebted 212 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.279 to him for his vision and his commitment, and that's 213 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.759 so in that way, that's what I wanted to write, 214 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:28.720 and I hope we succeeded. 215 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.720 Early in his career, Eisner dow comics under five different names, 216 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:37.279 in five different styles simultaneously. Damn you mastered a bunch 217 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:40.279 of styles and putting this book together, including spot on 218 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:41.600 Eisner like drawings. 219 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:43.240 What was your process? 220 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.120 I guess the first step of the process was to 221 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.480 decide that I did not want to draw this book 222 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.279 overall in the style that was going to get compared 223 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.399 to Will Eisner. First of all, that just wouldn't be 224 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:02.399 my natural style. But also I think that, you know, 225 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:06.559 I'm more in the world of of indie comics, so 226 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:09.200 I think I wanted it to, you know, feel like 227 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.039 it would naturally feel for me, which is more of 228 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:14.759 an indie style whatever that whatever that means, but a 229 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:22.480 looser style and faster style in a way, except we 230 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.720 had to draw a lot fast, but you know, like 231 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.039 the way I the way I colored. It especially was 232 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:33.840 intentionally kind of loose, kind of rough, more expressive than 233 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:40.879 uh than than detailed. So there's that, But then then 234 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:45.559 there's like art within the art, you know. We definitely 235 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:50.759 wanted to make Eisner's drawing process a big part of 236 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:55.919 the book, which meant drawing his art, which because I didn't, 237 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:57.600 I thought it would look weird if we just sort 238 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:01.360 of shrunk down ages of Eisner and and and slotted 239 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:06.399 them in. So yeah, I readdrew a lot of pages 240 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:10.919 by Eisner and you know, not pages but handle sections 241 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:15.360 of pages and some other artists, and and that was 242 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:17.519 just a matter of you know, kind of close looking 243 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:23.960 and and then sort of learning how he put together 244 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.799 his his pages and his panels, which was which was 245 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.360 fun and I think I learned a lot. Every time 246 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.000 I would do one of those, I would feel like 247 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.200 this burst of confidence when I went back to drawing 248 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.879 in my style because I had just done something so 249 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:44.360 so challenging, you know, to to to render the way 250 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.120 he did, you know, his what he could do with 251 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:52.519 light falling across a drapery or across a face cast 252 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.600 shadows was so incredible that it was really like like 253 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.480 a little bit like going to school, just copying all 254 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:03.600 that Eisner first. 255 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:08.080 In his biography Will Eisner, A Spirited Life. Bob Anlman 256 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.679 notes that the book began as an autobiography with him 257 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.240 as Eisner's helper, but Eisner soon realized the project was 258 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.799 too big and handed it over to Alman. How did 259 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.639 you decide what to leave in and what to leave 260 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.200 out of your graphic biography? 261 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.879 I think it was kind of intuitive because what we 262 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.000 were following his story, but we wanted to focus on 263 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:32.679 the you know, the moments when he had to take 264 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:36.399 risks and when when he when he when those moments 265 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.039 really when he actually changed the industry. So that was 266 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.399 that was the big part. And then the other part 267 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:46.000 was we wanted to we really wanted to present him 268 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.080 as a human being, because he's not just this He's 269 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.080 not just this guy that gave us comments. He's a 270 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.000 person with a whole life, And that was that was 271 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.200 the real In a lot of ways, that was a 272 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.080 bigger challenge than the other thing, because it's so he 273 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.000 was a very private person and it's really hard to 274 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.440 get a lot of personal information. That's but we were 275 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.400 we were determined to show were the sacrifices that he 276 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:17.640 made to succeed, and I think that's we tried to 277 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.680 show that repeatedly because it was a theme throughout his life, 278 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.799 the sacrifice. He was just so driven to succeed in 279 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:28.920 this industry that really wasn't industry yet. So I think 280 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.119 that that's how we so that really was the impulse. 281 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.599 Betweend behind the choices that we made, would. 282 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:42.359 You agree, Yeah, definitely. And there's there's a couple of biographies, 283 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:48.640 there's his semi autobiographical graphic novels, and lots and lots 284 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:53.839 of interviews with will Eisner. He liked to talk and 285 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.519 talk about himself, and he had a repertoire of of 286 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.319 anecdotes which he read over and over, and they're good anecdotes, 287 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.160 some of them. I think we felt like some of 288 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.599 the people might be surprised if they really know Eisener. 289 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.519 It's like, why isn't the story about Jack Kirby standing 290 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:18.720 up to the gangster over the linen story in the book. 291 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.480 And there were some stories I think that we felt 292 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.680 were almost had just become cliches through Eisner's retelling of them, 293 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.160 and we left him out. Yeah, that's the main one. 294 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:34.200 But like little anecdotes in the Comics Studio and some 295 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.599 of his you know, probably most of his repertoire of 296 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.160 anecdotes are in there. But you know, as Steve said, 297 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.000 parts of his life that he didn't talk about as 298 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:51.200 much or talked about more in generalities, especially his childhood. 299 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.039 You know, the scene where he and his brother are 300 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.440 confronted by the anti Semitic bullies and he ends up 301 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.319 telling his to change his name. You know, that's one 302 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:06.640 of his famous anecdotes. But there were scenes that we 303 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:11.319 kind of had to invent, you know, based on how 304 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.680 he talked about his parents and his childhood. So there 305 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.680 are you know, scenes that they they they are fictionalized inventions, 306 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.960 but they certainly are scenes that could happen, and they 307 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.000 they bring out like, you know, his mother taking him 308 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.799 shopping gross in the at the pushcarts. You know, he 309 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.640 talked a lot about his mother being a hard nosed businesswoman, 310 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.359 but he never gave an example, So so we invented 311 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.359 an example. And then and then there's a whole question 312 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.160 of of of where the story. You know, the story 313 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.960 was going to begin basically before his birth with his 314 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.799 parents' immigration, but where is the story going to end? 315 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.640 So when Steve first came to me with the idea 316 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.759 he had a he had a kind of an endpoint, 317 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.119 which I'm sure you remember, Steve, you know, and it 318 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.680 was going to end when Eisner was much younger than 319 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:07.720 where we took it to. 320 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.400 So then with him being drafted, and then we're gonna 321 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:13.799 follow that with a pro section saying he went on 322 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:16.680 to do the graphic novel blah blah blah blah blah. 323 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:19.680 So what I in my own mind not it was 324 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.519 a little bit like the movie A Complete Unknown. It 325 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.279 would just like this this picture of the early years 326 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.480 that was That was the original idea. But then what 327 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.599 actually happened was that Dan, you know Dan Dan became 328 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.359 interested and Dan was actually was also an expert on 329 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.039 this period, and so we just started to expand the 330 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.079 story and it became a much bigger story. 331 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.160 But we did kind of we speed through, I guess 332 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:51.559 from about nineteen really from the time that he's drafted 333 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:58.160 to nineteen seventy right to the seventies, so like thirty 334 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:03.839 five years are kind of a montage. We felt like 335 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.000 the most important thing, and the publisher also urge us 336 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.680 to do this was to get to the contract with God. 337 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.000 So it's like let's get to the Contract with God 338 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.359 as quickly as we can, which also which means getting like, 339 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.319 how how did he sort of drift he drifted away 340 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.160 from the comic world. How did he come back and 341 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:28.359 have this really remarkable last act of his life in 342 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.160 which he did so much. So I think that was 343 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.079 a big decision of something not to leave out that 344 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.440 was initially going to be left out. I think it 345 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:38.279 was the right decision. 346 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:39.960 I think one of the nice things about your book 347 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.079 is that it primarily looks at his life and work 348 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.039 before he returned to comics in the seventies. 349 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.000 One reason that we did that was in sort of 350 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.880 developing or however you say, when it's a real person, 351 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.920 his character and his vision up to a certain point, 352 00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:03.000 and then realizing that doing Contract with God was really 353 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.319 like a culmination of something that he had deferred for 354 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.119 all those years that he kind of there wasn't any 355 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.599 opening in comics for him to do something serious and artistic, 356 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.319 so and he probably thought he never would be able to, 357 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.599 but you know it. So there's a line in the 358 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.920 book where I care exactly what it is, where his 359 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.200 wife says, how do you feel? And he's finished contractor 360 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:28.519 with God, he says, I feel like I finally finished 361 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.559 something I started, you know, forty years ago or so. 362 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.480 I think that's why it really made sense to get there. 363 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:37.200 And then it wouldn't. We didn't think it would be 364 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.480 very interesting to go you know, through the next twenty 365 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.039 books that he did. You know, he did family matter 366 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.759 at something and a value. You know, then it would 367 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:47.680 be like a book I did earlier Almoths, like almost 368 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.920 like an encyclopedia. But so then we just did it 369 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.359 that kind of a montage of the of the rest. 370 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:57.720 In the pros biographies, you when you're doing a biography, 371 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.119 and this can be the strength of a prose biogra 372 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.359 You just cover everything, you go through, every period you write, 373 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.839 you know, sometimes again to you know, day by day practically, 374 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.039 and so the So the Schumacher biography, which we use 375 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.519 a lot, you know, it covered every period of his life, 376 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.359 all his business interests during the fifties and early sixties. 377 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.079 And I think the approach of a graphic novel, unlike 378 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:27.000 a prose biography, is more like a movie, where you 379 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:31.960 choose the most interesting and engaging parts and try to 380 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.480 either give over or shorthand the rest. 381 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:41.200 Eisner's immigrant father was a failed artist but remained a 382 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.680 persistent dreamer, something Will inherited from him. It's almost like 383 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.279 Will Eisner fulfilled to dream his father never could. 384 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:50.799 Do you agree, I mean, I agree that there was 385 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:55.400 the artistic impulse, but Will had a very very smart 386 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.839 business center. It might be it might have been more 387 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.680 more acute than his artistics actually, and his father clearly 388 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.039 did not. So I think my answer would be he 389 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.920 took he took some of his father, and he made 390 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.240 a way to make what his father to make, make 391 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.640 his father's ambition into something that would actually work commercially 392 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.640 and he would be able to support because he supported 393 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:24.240 the entire family. It supported his parents, He supported his brother, 394 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.319 and he supported his sister. He put his sister through 395 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.440 college and he never graduated from high school, and his 396 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.359 brother was employed by him. Is in his entire life 397 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.279 was he was part of the company. So I think 398 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.839 his business sense is really that's something we don't think 399 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:43.920 about a lot, because we did think about what he 400 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.599 did for comics, but it took a lot of business 401 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:48.960