WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:53.359 S S S S S S S S S S 2 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:29.879 S S S S S S S S. 3 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:35.280 S. 4 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:59.919 All right, welcome, hope everybody's sir. 5 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:04.520 I woke up today to some fancy, flashy, sassy new 6 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:07.439 drama from the Internet's. 7 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.800 Hottest little boats Eie Wearer. 8 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:17.840 I'm talking about that predestined as sunny occasionalist, Calvinist Muslim 9 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:22.840 man James Watt and his little cute little list that 10 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:27.599 he's got. He's just so in a tizzy today. He's 11 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:30.560 just sassy today. Something got up under him and got 12 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.039 him all sassed. I don't know what it is, but 13 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:39.280 if we're gonna go to Roman's nine, honey child, he's 14 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:45.439 our man. He can exege that perfectly. With that diploma 15 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:47.919 meal degree that he got down in South Africa, down 16 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:51.560 there with his little Ubungu friends that he's got. I 17 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:54.280 wonder what they get up to down there with that 18 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.199 little lisp. He's got it and there's no telling them. 19 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.840 Maybe he did it. Maybe he did his diploma, diploma, 20 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:04.479 MA degree online. I think they have extension courses up 21 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:08.319 there for little James wherever he's located inside of his 22 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:08.879 little RV. 23 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:12.840 They might be over here in New Orleans right now. 24 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:17.279 If it's Marti Grauls time, I'm over here, about fifty 25 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.639 miles outside of New Orleans. I I could just run 26 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.360 over there and find James if he's over there on 27 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.920 down in the French quarters. If he's down there, Exaget 28 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.680 and Romans nine for some of the some of the 29 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:33.519 men's over there in the French quarters. But listen, I'll 30 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:35.399 tell you one thing, honey, you ain't going to find 31 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.519 a better cosmusweater anywhere in the damn us than down 32 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.079 there in that French quarter. Some of them women's down 33 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.240 there that does the tarot reatings, the tarot cards, Honey, 34 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.959 Them tarot readers will sew you a Cosby sweater like 35 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.199 Joseph's technicolor dreamcoat, Honey, out of the doll of the 36 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.000 Book of Genesis, honey. And that's what James White's all about. 37 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.879 I hope James Whites will come over here and I 38 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.319 and just talk to him a little bit. But he's 39 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:04.040 got that cute little honey. Have you ever seen that 40 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.879 little Colonel Sanders. 41 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:06.759 Go to you? 42 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.639 He's got And it just makes me think all them 43 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.519 chickens that Biden had just killed, all one hundred fifty 44 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.120 billion of them. If I was thinking like James White 45 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.040 and that Colonel Sanders predestination mindset, they was destined for it, honey, 46 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.439 all one hundred fifty millions of them. Let's see, maybe 47 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.720 he'll come in here and tell us about Romans nine. 48 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:32.240 Romans nine, I'm just joking, being silly. I'm poisoning the well. 49 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.360 Oh wait, if I poison the well, it's on Christ. 50 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:42.079 Like when James White poisons the well, it's Boomer wisdom. 51 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:43.439 I don't know what he was trying to say. 52 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:50.319 If he doesn't debate a person with a green profile picture, wow, 53 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.120 those are good reasons. Now, for years, here's the backstory. 54 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.560 We messaged James White to do debates on. 55 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.000 The Essen Center. You've seen Shin on Absolute to my Simplicity, 56 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:03.959 Tilly oak Way, all of that stuff. 57 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.600 And for years he said, in his little sassy tone, 58 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.120 I don't know orthodox stuff. I just don't have tons 59 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:13.639 of debate I have, and he's just there's just too 60 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:14.680 much list thing I've. 61 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:14.959 Got to do. 62 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:17.360 I've got to study the art of the list. 63 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.199 And I don't have time to study orthodox stuff. 64 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.160 So he had no time for the last six seven years, 65 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:30.439 I guess, And now he wants to drive an RV 66 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:34.319 to debate me a year out, and what I guess 67 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:36.759 I'm supposed to like arrange this. I don't arrange in 68 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.519 person debates. I mean, I don't mind it. In person debate. 69 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:45.879 I've done one with Tim Gordon's brother in that ridiculous 70 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.480 Baptist pastor I don't remember his name, but that was 71 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:53.680 all organized by another podcast to settle that up. So 72 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.879 it's not that I'm completely opposed to it, but like 73 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:58.279 so William Albrech did this where he was like. 74 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.160 Oh, debate you, but only. 75 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.000 In person six months from now, and it's like, okay, 76 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.000 so I'm supposed to establish and set up a public 77 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:07.000 in person debate for you. 78 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:09.319 I'm not doing all that shit, dude. You can hop 79 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:10.639 on a damn live streaming debate. 80 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:12.600 And by the way, all these people usually will debate 81 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:17.160 other people on live streams. And I think his like 82 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:23.439 scrawling screed today of boomer nonsense was quite amusing, Like 83 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:27.319 I'm gonna have fun live streaming about this. So now 84 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.639 he calls into question my comedic capabilities. 85 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:31.720 Is he even a comedian? 86 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.800 Well, I'll have you know that I write for one 87 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.879 of the top comedians out there right now. 88 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.720 You may have heard the name Amy Schumer. 89 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:40.519 Thank you. 90 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.600 Now we're going to open it up today's topics or 91 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:46.240 whatever you guys want to talk about. I do not 92 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:49.439 think we're really going to get many calvin Is in here, 93 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.480 but of course Calvinism gets the priority place today for 94 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.639 discussion topic. So if you'd like to discuss the elements 95 00:07:55.639 --> 00:08:03.680 of Calvinism, that could include predestination, tulip Calvins, institutes, reform theology, Puritans, 96 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:04.480 it could be any of that. 97 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.519 But we can also talk about, of course soul, scripturia. 98 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:08.720 We can talk about. 99 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:14.160 The history of the church, councils, authority, you know, creeds 100 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:15.879 and confessions, church fathers. 101 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:17.879 It's all fair game. 102 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:22.800 Also, anything else related to the history of Protestantism, the 103 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:30.399 prosct Church, Classical Reformation, Lutheranism, Baptist theology, whatever, Also Catholicism 104 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.279 is on the table. If you are a papist, you 105 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.159 may call in and make your arguments. If you are 106 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:39.440 a Muslim, the buddies of the Calvinists, because they believe 107 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:44.840 in essentially the Divine decree is the cause of all causes. 108 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.559 So Muslims are welcome to call in together with their 109 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.919 about buddy Calvinists and we can have a discussion with 110 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.799 it as well as the atheists. 111 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:05.919 It's open form today. First up is balance. You have 112 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:06.480 time you. 113 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:11.879 So, Jay, I wanted to talk to you about Protestism. 114 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:12.639 Can you hear me? 115 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:13.720 Yep? 116 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.679 So I've been looking into Catholicism and Orthodoxy for a 117 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.639 little while now. I was born and raised in Protestant Church. Well, 118 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.759 Costolicism never like intrigued me because Swols is gay with 119 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.519 the Pope god Man. But Orthodoxy always intrigued me. And 120 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:33.559 my question is because I'm I've always thought about conditionalism. 121 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.559 It's being biblical. And my main point is Isaiah. I 122 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:40.679 guess chapter sixty six, verses twenty two to twenty four 123 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:45.000 referred by Jesus and Mark when he says he sends 124 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:49.440 them to the outer room of darkness where the national 125 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.600 teeth and they become objects of content and their corpses 126 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.799 refer to Isaiah. So how is that like not like 127 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:59.440 them dying in hell? If that's where they go and 128 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:01.519 they're they become coarse corpses. 129 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:06.000 And I didn't hear what you were saying. Conditionalism? What 130 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:06.279 is that? 131 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:10.440 Yeah, it's basically now where people do you know die 132 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.679 in hell? Annihilism they call it. 133 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:18.440 You're talking about annihilationism not not yet, my bad, Yeah, 134 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.039 I mean, the Bible doesn't teach annihilationism. It teaches that 135 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.720 both the body and the soul are joined together in 136 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.440 the resurrection for all eternity, and that's based on the 137 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.480 work of Christ. So in One Tear the fifteen Paul 138 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.080 makes it very clear that your resurrection, whoever you are, 139 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:36.279 is contingent upon Christ's resurrection and defeating death. But that 140 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:37.519 doesn't mean that you're going to have. 141 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.559 Necessarily a good experience of the escaton if you're wicked. 142 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.240 The wicked have ever being, but they have ever ill being. 143 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.279 The righteous have ever being as well, but they have 144 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:50.399 ever well being. 145 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.679 All right, that makes sense. I just when you look 146 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.320 at like mark and stuff. When Jesus talking about like 147 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.879 them can turn in the outer of darkness and the 148 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.559 national teeth, he says, it's going to be where the 149 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.840 fire doesn't quench and where the worm doesn't die. And 150 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.039 in Isaiah that's where like there are objects of contempt 151 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:11.000 and their corpses. 152 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:16.360 I understand that, but the language is intending to discuss 153 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:20.279 a spiritual state. It's not literally saying that they have 154 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.559 a worm because the worm, according to the Church Fathers, typically 155 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.919 is the pangs of conscience. So they're tormented by their 156 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.720 conscience for what they did and what they didn't do 157 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.960 in life, they didn't repent, et cetera. But the fire 158 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:38.759 there is it's not everlasting darkness if it's literal fire, right, 159 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:44.159 So it's the descriptions of separation from the goodness of God, 160 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.720 not separation from the presence of God. And that's why 161 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.240 in the Orthodox of you, the divine energy that is 162 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.759 the river of life is the same divine energy that 163 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.799 is the lake of fire. It's just contingent upon the 164 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.639 mode of being of each individual person as to how 165 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.279 that's experienced in the afterlife. So if you lived unrighteously 166 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.480 and not according to Christ in this life, you're still 167 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.720 going to get resurrected on the basis of Christ, and 168 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:13.120 you're still going to experience God and the Eskaton, but 169 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.759 you're going to experience the divine energies as the thing 170 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:18.679 that torments you because you hated God. 171 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:21.200 All right, Yeah, that makes sense. 172 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:21.399 Yeah. 173 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.120 I wasn't trying to like make a correlation of it 174 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.120 being dark. I know it wasn't being literal obviously, because 175 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:29.519 of the flames. But the analogy whatever you were saying 176 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.759 with the warm that makes sense. I never heard anyone 177 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.639 say that, And trying to like research and see what 178 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:35.279 other people's thoughts were. 179 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:38.120 All thees Gaton Paul says that in One Green Is fifteen, 180 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.799 God becomes all and in all and the extent of 181 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:44.679 the resurrection. The scope of the resurrection in First Green 182 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.720 Is fifteen is just as expansive and universal as the 183 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.240 scope of Adams Fall. So that means that everyone, even 184 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.360 tiny mustache man like, the only basis for him to be. 185 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.759 Resurrection resurrected is the worst of Christ. 186 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.240 So this also, by the way, we're fu's Calvinism, because 187 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.320 Calvinism never really understands or explains why the wicked or 188 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.879 resurrected or the reprobate would be resurrected because they have 189 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.200 no connection to Christ. And so Calvinists just have to 190 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.960 say stuff like, well, God just arbitrarily creates a hell 191 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:17.799 body for them, Padre Pio, why'd you run away? I'm 192 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:19.799 about to bring up a Roman Catholic and you literally 193 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.480 just drop out. So it's funny, like, and people love 194 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:27.000 to just talk Tomac on Twitter all day long. James 195 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:30.960 White wants to schedule a debate on topics that are 196 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.480 not the topics that I asked them debate for many years, 197 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.399 totally different topics, and then but he can't hop on 198 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.440 his face and have this discussion. So yeah, it's just 199 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.399 really like another thing that people don't know maybe about 200 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:45.600 Calvinist is I was in that world when I was young, 201 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:49.759 and Calvinists really like their whole thing. They thrive on 202 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:56.000 being recognized and being seen as scholars and intellectuals, like 203 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.919 that's the whole religion. It's a it's a kind of 204 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:04.039 a it's like just a biblical almost Talmudic version of 205 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:08.919 what you know, papal scholastic people want to be right, 206 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.399 Scholastic nerds have a lot more philosophy. But both the 207 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:19.240 Calvinists scholastic want to be and the papal scholastic tomist 208 00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:21.919 want to be they're really just worshiping intellect. 209 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:23.879 The whole religion is about intellect. 210 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:28.240 And being perceived as intellectual and known as intellectual and 211 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:33.080 given the validation of being an intellectual through debate. So 212 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.080 one of the things that I've learned over the years 213 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.159 that is very important is Calvinists do not at all 214 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.039 enjoy being mocked or made fun of because they take 215 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.120 themselves very seriously. And of course everyone could see that 216 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:49.919 in all the silly shit that he's posted today, James White, 217 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.200 it's all like, really, like this man, there's not a. 218 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:55.320 Scholar. 219 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.039 He's got a green of photo of himself and he's 220 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:04.360 got a photo of weird background images. The background images, 221 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.600 for those that don't know, has a bunch of fascinating 222 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:10.759 lore in it that my buddy and good friend Mark Rowe, 223 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:17.639 who is a very well known documentary filmmaker and a cinematographer, 224 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.679 just made as a joke. So like a lot of 225 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:22.799 the stuff, people don't even know what the jokes are. 226 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.320 They don't get it, but that's to be expected. I mean, 227 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.080 it's just like you know, the humor of Sam Hyde, 228 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.080 nobody over age, I don't know, fifty maybe even forty five, 229 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.799 I don't know, Like they don't typically care or get 230 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:37.240 that kind of humor like that. 231 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:38.759 That's the generation gap. 232 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.000 So although technically James White's probably gen X, I mean, 233 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:44.720 the whole mindset, the whole ethos here is just like 234 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.399 one hundred percent boomer for sure. But the point being 235 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:49.679 is like, now, of course he's not gonna they're not 236 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.600 gonna grasp or get like, well, what all we're talking about? 237 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:57.879 What we're about over here? But also like it's important 238 00:15:57.919 --> 00:15:59.440 not to validate. 239 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:03.200 Quote unquote these people's like perception of being quote a scholar. 240 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:05.600 You notice I don't care about that. I gave up. 241 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.399 I could care less about that shit. I used to 242 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:09.000 care about. 243 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:12.240 That, especially when I was a Roman Catholic Thomas. You know, 244 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.000 when I went from Calvinist to Thomas, I was very 245 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.720 interested in academia, very interesting getting my degree. I want 246 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.960 to be seen as, oh, I'm a scholar. And then 247 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.000 once I realized that all that shits retarded and the 248 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.799 people in these movements are actually just retarded, and that 249 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.919 I actually I would respect a person who could actually 250 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:32.559 like a guy who actually go out and punch somebody 251 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.639 in the face and have a fight way better than 252 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.039 I would respect any of these so called pastors. I mean, 253 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.240 what did we just see yesterday. One of the biggest 254 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:44.039 megachurch pastors is basically Reverend Tuttle from true detective like 255 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:49.840 the literal pedo, like raping kids, you know, Protestant Evangelical 256 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:54.159 megachurch pastor. So I mean, what does that tell you like, 257 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.480 these people are just like literal trash and scum, and 258 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.000 they want to be seen as like these super intellectuals. 259 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.600 They're not even worth anybody's time. And by the way, 260 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.880 the rest of the Calvinists on the Twitter spaces are 261 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.519 complete trash too, the ones that fake that their wives 262 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.200 are submissive prairie muffins. That other guy the other day, 263 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.279 I think he was a Calvinist that was a fake 264 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.599 saying he was logging in and tweeting at this fake 265 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.200 wife account like. 266 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:20.319 That she was submissive. 267 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:23.680 And then you got Joel Webbin over here, who's like, uh, 268 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.799 basically wants to be a Salafie Muslim as a Calvinist. 269 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.160 All these Calvinists just need to go be freaking Muslims. 270 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.160 They need to be they need to be Salafie well Hobby, 271 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.960 they need to go be buddies with Jake and Daniel 272 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:42.039 Hikikachu because that's where they'd fit in. Jamie said, Joel 273 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.359 Webbin believes in Mermaids unironically, which is. 274 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:46.759 Kind of funny. And now a bunch of the audience 275 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:47.319 are going to be. 276 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.720 Like, oh, actually I like Joel Webbin though, because there's 277 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.839 probably a lot of other mrmaid appreciators in this chat, 278 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.279 there's a lot of there's a lot of people with 279 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.480 their crushes on Ariel over here. But didn't you know 280 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:06.200 Ariel from Little Mermaid is actually a Jewish plot because 281 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.440 Ariel is the name for Israel. 282 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.759 I'm just joking as a joke, and. 283 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:12.400 I would I'd like to remind you all again I 284 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.599 am one of the top comedy writers. 285 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.880 Now I did finagle my way into that position. 286 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.720 James White's questioning my comedic skill sets. 287 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:25.400 I'll have you all know I am the. 288 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:27.519 Top comedy writer for somebody you might have heard of, 289 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:29.200 Brendan Shaub. 290 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.519 Thank you. 291 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.319 Anybody else wants to come on to the chat. If 292 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.400 you hit request to speak, I'll bring you up. You 293 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.960 can ask questions in regard to Calvinism all the way. 294 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.039 James White's actually. 295 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:47.200 A ridiculous radical proponent of stupid ads. So I want 296 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.880 to debate him about that. Actually initially, and we were 297 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.880 going to talk about Philly Oakuay and all that stuff, 298 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.400 and he said multiple times over the years, I don't 299 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.400 debate orthodox stuff because I don't have time for it. 300 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.720 So he just sort of dismissed it. 301 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.400 And then I asked again about that sinceni. 302 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.680 In distinction, And then we asked Jeff Durbin when back 303 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.119 when Durbin was like in the circles or adjacent to 304 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.279 James White was saying at one point, oh, you know, 305 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.200 I don't really have time go out go tobate James Derbin. 306 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.680 So Durbin said, if you would like to debate me, 307 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.200 there's a good in line You're it's at least one 308 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.000 year out. And I'm just like, how, like, how much 309 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:28.920 first of all, how much prep do you actually need 310 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:31.599 if you're a damn Calvinist, Like you can't just defend 311 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:35.640 your position on the spot, Like, how much more prep 312 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.039 do you actually need if you've been at Calvinist for 313 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.680 freaking twenty thirty years? I mean when I was a Calvinist, 314 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.160 like a defendant on the spot, and pretty much really 315 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.720 any position, like if it's a really difficult issue, like 316 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:50.160 let's say we wanted to have a debate with a 317 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:54.680 Roman Catholic on We're going to debate, you know, the 318 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:58.640 geopolitical power of the papacy, which I keep trying to 319 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.359 get Roman Catholics to do, and none the will do it. 320 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:03.759 Like I would understand somebody requesting time for that because 321 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.480 that's a difficult nuance, a lot of time and effort. 322 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.200 But like if you're a Calvinist, like we all know too, 323 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.119 we all know predestination, we all know you know institutes, 324 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:13.519 we all know Westminster Confession. 325 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:18.039 Like how much real prep you actually need on Ross? 326 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.000 Yeah? 327 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.559 Yeah, it's up, Yeah yeah yeah, I say, said, I 328 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:39.559 am here, so I wanted to speak with you. I 329 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.799 have a friend with the Roman Catholic I am Ortodox, 330 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.319 and I watched your video on iconography on the seventeen 331 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:53.160 you Manical Concil, and he raped the objection that viality 332 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:56.079 matter in which style is the icon. 333 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.759 So I can't understand what you're saying. 334 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.359 You watched the video I did on the seventh Ecmmenical Council, 335 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.039 and we've done about four of those, so I'm not 336 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:03.319 sure what. 337 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.880 Recent one on iconography where you argued that the current style, 338 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:14.960 like in the fifteenth century the Roman Catholics used is incorrect. 339 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.960 And I read. 340 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.720 The seventh Ecumenical councils canons and I couldn't find anything 341 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:25.559 about that that. 342 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:24.640 I already addressed that. 343 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.559 So the seventh Ecumenical Council has multiple canons that do 344 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.759 address icons, and then one hundred years later almost in 345 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.359 the eight forty three Council, it's called the Triumph of 346 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.640 Orthodoxy where they create the Sonoticon and they restate all 347 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.920 of the canons and the victory or ecume me the 348 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.839 principles of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So the Sonoticon is 349 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.359 a summary of the Seventh Ecumenical Council and. 350 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.119 Includes all those principles. So just look up the full 351 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.400 Sonoticon of Orthodoxy which includes all that. 352 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.920 Okay, thank you. But so if it's wrong to use 353 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.359 a different style of iconography and then. 354 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:07.799 What they use, I mean, I literally address that it 355 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.640 has nothing to do with styles. If you watch the 356 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.799 video that you're talking about that I did, that was 357 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.799 like twenty minutes of a live stream. I literally sat 358 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:16.960 in there. That it's not an issue of the style 359 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.640 of the icon. It's rather an issue in other words, 360 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.480 artistic style. I mean, you could talk I'll talk to 361 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.680 any Orthodox iconographer and they'll tell you that they at times, 362 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.839 you know, utilize their own individual style and creativity. So 363 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.079 there's room for flexibility there. But the point is that 364 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.599 there's norms that you don't, for example, paint a bunch 365 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.160 of boobies and titties and you know, butts and dick 366 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:41.799 hanging out like the Vatican has. 367 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.359 Like it's obvious. So like what I'm saying isn't even controversial. 368 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.680 If you read the Lost Kyalspensky books volume one and two, 369 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:49.799 they're not even that long. 370 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.119 It just talks about all the same stuff. 371 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.160 Okay, yeah, thank you, that's just my quession. 372 00:22:55.240 --> 00:23:00.599 All right, Yeah, no good questions. I'mpre sire that all right, Dave, 373 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:15.240 what's up, Dave? You don't want to talk? 374 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:26.480 What's going on? And then Dave leaves? 375 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.920 So Dave the Muslim didn't want to talk, all right, 376 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.519 so it's open for him. Any questions regarding Calvinism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, 377 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:40.920 from Catholicism, church history, biblical theology, Islam, Atheism, E request 378 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.359 to speak. I'll bring you up. You can ask a 379 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.720 question or you can offer an argument. You can listen 380 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.839 to your reasons why you think X y Z is wrong. 381 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.720 Just keep it to making arguments. And you know it's 382 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.400 that other Calvinists too, I forget his name, say awful 383 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:01.000 us or something like. 384 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:03.759 He's like you need to do a blog debate with me. 385 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:06.960 I don't do debates. That's exactly what Lofton said. Lofton's 386 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.319 like Jay Dieks turned down a debate with me, dog, 387 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:12.880 and then he doesn't tell you that the debate offer 388 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.799 was a blog debate. Like, dude, this is twenty twenty five, 389 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:22.039 broh Ain't nobody blog except maybe like some substack people. 390 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:24.920 But I'm not debating you in an exchange of substacks. 391 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:27.920 Anything I write is going into a stupid book. Dude. 392 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.319 I'm not writing for free anymore. It's going in a book. 393 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.720 So I don't know what what what these people are 394 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.119 that boomers like you want to come debate on Facebook 395 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.200 exchange and like, dude, get the hell out of here, 396 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:45.400 go back to Facebook. Uh, boomer Land, Today's funny because 397 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.440 it's all like boomer shit too like. And I will 398 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.240 never stop making boomer jokes. I'm the damn grandfather of 399 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.680 boomer jokes. I will proudly tout that as part of 400 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.079 my credit, I wrote a viral article fifteen years ago 401 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:01.000 making fun of boomers whenever world internet. 402 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:01.240 Back of the day. 403 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.319 And I will keep making fun of boomers even when 404 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.119 I'm a freaking nine year old senior citizen man and 405 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.440 the boomers don't exist. I'm still gonna be telling the 406 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.039 youngsters the lore of Boomer bullshit. 407 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.680 Where'd that guy go? He drops everybody popping on here? 408 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.480 Drops off? Where you all at? Come on now now, 409 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:25.599 Oh now, Uncle Baby Billy's Bible bunkers, Come on now, 410 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:35.799 step up. Somebody got to step up. Oh now, get up, anybody, 411 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:41.000 it's Uncle Baby Billy's Bible bunkers. Step on up and 412 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.279 be quizzed. Gets your worldview tested, get your worldview put 413 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:56.079 in check? All right, we got hasani hey, dudekay. 414 00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.599 I don't necessarily, I guess it kind of does apply 415 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.960 to the town topics, but I don't have anything that's 416 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:07.720 like specific to to one of the individual topics. I 417 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.400 just actually I had a question about something regardless. Obviously 418 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.440 I was in the obviously I was the one that 419 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.160 was sent in the super chests last night, and that 420 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:21.839 little and the thing with hypocrite and me and me 421 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.599 and a couple of dud we were we were really 422 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.240 going back and forth with a couple of guys in 423 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.279 the in the chat. There were two of them specifically, well, 424 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:32.000 one that I was going back and forth with like 425 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.319 the entire fucking time. Y'all are alive, Uh, and that 426 00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:36.839 that's actually what I wanted to ask about. And there 427 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:38.640 was some other dude he was he was literally just there. 428 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.720 We figured out he was just there to troll you specifically. 429 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.119 He I don't know who he is, have no clue 430 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:46.039 where he came from, but that guy fucking hates you. 431 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.200 I don't know who it is, but yeah, he definitely 432 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:48.559 hates you. 433 00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:50.799 Okay, Well what was the profile? 434 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:54.799 It was just it was just Joe. It was like 435 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:58.200 Joe and the last name started with an H. And 436 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.200 he was He's some gnostic, that's the thing he was. 437 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.240 He was being like very very fun. The damn word 438 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.279 the word is escape me. Like we kept on asking 439 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:13.319 questions about about you know, like his views and ship 440 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:13.559 like that. 441 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:14.000 Uh. 442 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.799 And the only thing he would specify, like, the only 443 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.960 thing he specified is he tends to lean towards gnostic 444 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.960 beliefs about But then he wouldn't and he just he 445 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.839 would literally say about and dot he wouldn't. He would 446 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.400 not specify anything else. It was the weirdest ever. 447 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:32.079 But I mean, you can always tell those dudes to 448 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:34.440 come to the open open forums and have a debate. 449 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:38.400 So Joe, H, I think it's welcome to come to 450 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:39.400 b Andrew, what's up? 451 00:27:52.559 --> 00:28:25.359 I mean, Andrew mute? Andrew unmute if you want to talk? 452 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:31.880 No, what go ahead? Are there? Did you turn your 453 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.119 mind tongue to God? And like? What do people not 454 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.119 ever use spaces? Like? Is my space the first space 455 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:48.759 for every single person? D D? What's up? Matter? Yeah? 456 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:54.640 Hey, how you doing? Been a minute? Have you seen this? 457 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:01.880 Uh recent article? Candice Owens is reposts it, Jack Posto 458 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.960 is reposting. It's like Reverend Johnny Moore and our good 459 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:07.720 old guy JP. 460 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.359 Uh, I haven't seen this article. Who who is this reverend? 461 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:14.759 I don't know. 462 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:16.720 Is this the guy that was the pedo? 463 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.920 Uh No, I'm not I'm not sure. But it's just 464 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:26.200 this whole concept of the I guess the uptick of 465 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.039 Christ is king. Christ is king being co opted by 466 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.839 some I guess ethno nationalist types. 467 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.839 Well, I don't doubt that the establishment has fed and 468 00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.319 people trying to do that. But I've not seen this 469 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.079 article and I'm not sure. So you said with our 470 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.079 buddy who JB P like Jordan Peters. 471 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:47.559 Yeah? Yeah. 472 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.000 Jordan Peterson COT. 473 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:57.440 And Jordan Peter Peterson co authored an article about the 474 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.079 co opting of Christ the King dealing with at no 475 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:01.920 nationalists is ever you're saying. 476 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.200 Yeah, so if you see Jack Poso posted about it, 477 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.839 Reverend Johnny Moore and Jordan B. Peterson talking about how 478 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:18.319 anti Semitic movements have hijacked the Christis King and uh, 479 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:23.400 well they're basically. But I wanted to talk about it 480 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.680 because well, I mean, I think that there's something to it, 481 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.519 and I've I've been struggling. 482 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:32.000 With that myself. 483 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.599 A lot of the guys, even in the Orthodox space, 484 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:39.920 like that Orthodox Luigi like sometimes he's towing that line, 485 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:41.319 you know, And. 486 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.079 Well, I mean I've I've spoken on this topic like 487 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:48.960 multiple times. 488 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:49.200 I did. 489 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.440 I devoted like the entire week two weeks ago to 490 00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.759 this topic. And I don't follow all the Luigi's post 491 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:56.319 so I don't know everything that he said, but I 492 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.440 know that, you know, Luigi was really into Fuentos for 493 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.319 a while and then they fell a scance on one another, 494 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.759 and he was dealing with Groyper's for a long time. 495 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.680 So now I don't know about Fuentes himself, but I 496 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.759 wouldn't have I would imagine that there's quite a few, 497 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:17.519 you know, provocateur fed type people absolutely involved in trying 498 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:22.839 to get individuals involved in and stirring up some kind 499 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:24.720 of movement like that. 500 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:25.200 That's fake. 501 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.160 In fact, I mentioned that to I hypocrite last night. 502 00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:30.599 A lot of those people, I think try to link 503 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.640 it to Islam, like this is the right wing dudes 504 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:37.680 that want to link up with Islam. It's like, well, well, 505 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.640 like all, well to see their anti Jew, anti Zionis 506 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.279 so they're all based when Islam is literally the rabbi say, 507 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.079 Islam is the broom of Israel. 508 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:49.400 Destroy the Just a lot. 509 00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:50.920 Of h Man glorification. 510 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:54.279 I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a quote by mustache 511 00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:57.559 Man himself about oh, we would have preferred the Mohammedan religion. 512 00:31:58.279 --> 00:31:59.599 You know, there's a lot of. 513 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:04.559 This, yes, he says, like sissification of of Christendom and 514 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:05.559 and all this kind of stuff. 515 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:11.079 And however, it's also true that the people on the 516 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.720 right and some of those spears obviously will not talk 517 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:21.160 about apac u Zionism and the rabbinical traditions and their methodology. 518 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.759 Yeah, that's true. 519 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:28.200 I'm no judas are like you know, if if you 520 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.960 if you make a nuanced critique of all of a sudden, 521 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:32.039 you're a massade agent. 522 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:34.920 You know, uh, and and it's. 523 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:39.000 Almost like I've been called that, dude. I've been called 524 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:42.680 that for like years because I'm on the Alex Jones Show. 525 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.119 And then when when I devote an entire week and 526 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:52.039 a half actually to rebindic Judaism, dispensationalism, Zionism, then suddenly, oh, 527 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:53.160 you're an anti Semitic. 528 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:55.839 You know. It's like it doesn't matter what you talk about. 529 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:56.720 Dealers do this. 530 00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.880 But unfortunately, I think there's this guy that's kind of 531 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.599 a attached at the hip to oh and Shroyer. I 532 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.759 don't I don't think Schroyer's necessarily signed is John Hancock 533 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:10.119 to it, but he's kind of floating around this guy 534 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.000 who definitely he's got me on the block list on 535 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.440 like three different accounts, calling me massad and you know, 536 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.079 jew lover and this, that and the third. 537 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:22.200 But it's just frustrating. 538 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.400 I guess I wanted to come on and see what 539 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.240 what your position was on it is. 540 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:28.480 I do think in a big way it is fake 541 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:29.920 and gay, as I say, but. 542 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.599 Yeah, it's like the only answer to these positions I 543 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:39.000 think is Christ in the in the traditional Orthodox sense, 544 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:42.079 because you know, you're not going to have peace between 545 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.039 Arab and jew and all this kind of stuff until 546 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:48.440 there's a recognition of the Messiah. So uh, you know, 547 00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:50.599 but in the in the meantime, so that's not going 548 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:52.880 to happen right away most likely. 549 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.799 I mean there's not. Really. It's like when people say, well, 550 00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.720 who's better a Muslim. 551 00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:00.880 A Calvinist or a papist, and it's like, well, I 552 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:04.200 mean they're all kind of problematics. It's like it's hard 553 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.400 to it's like hard to pick amongst the wrong positions sometimes. 554 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.880 Yeah, well, anyway, I think that uh, whoever that that 555 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.079 good old Southern molasses boy was that you're trying to 556 00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:13.480 get on here. 557 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.119 I think he's kind of racist for not wanting to 558 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:16.039 debate green people. 559 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.400 But that's a good way. But like, yeah, why does 560 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.119 James White get to be racist against green people like myself? 561 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:27.480 You know clearly clearly in that. 562 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.719 Picture I'm intending to be taken seriously because I'm pictured 563 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.239 with mac and me, And if James White doesn't know 564 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.880 what Macamy is, then that's already uh self refuting for 565 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:38.719 James White, basically, his career is over. 566 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:45.559 Dan, what's up, good evening? 567 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:46.039 Can I be? 568 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:48.880 He say? 569 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:49.079 What? 570 00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:57.360 Can you hear me? You can hear me, I can 571 00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:57.719 hear you. 572 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:06.000 Okay, So I have questions about Calvinism, right, So my 573 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:11.320 first question, Okay, my first question is on your belief 574 00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:17.320 over God decline all actions, right, so they believe that, 575 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.480 or I'm not very shonable. I know that some people 576 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:25.920 believe that God decrease all actions and that includes scein. 577 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:31.199 But at the same time they they hold that man 578 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.000 is responsible for sin. So my first question is how 579 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:36.639 how how does that work? 580 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:37.679 Right? 581 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:39.480 Do you understand what I mean? 582 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:40.920 Yeah, so that's correct. 583 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:45.039 Calvin Is, for the most part, believe that that all 584 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:49.719 evil and sin are absolutely under the divine decree. Absolutely, 585 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.039 so that's really not even in question in Calvinism. Calvinists 586 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:56.679 give lip service to secondary causes and human free will 587 00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:02.639 and choice, but even even the secondary causes are still 588 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.800 caused by the first cause, the divine cause. 589 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.800 So really it's just kind of lip service. And that's 590 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:10.320 why historically. 591 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.679 Some Calvinists, amongst the Puritans Jonathan Edwards for example, they 592 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:18.159 actually end up being occasionalists, just like the Sunni Muslims. 593 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:56.599 So let's see Andrew try again at doak pay. 594 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.960 Hi jak Amy. Yes, Sir Hi, so I was going 595 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.039 through your video the other day. I'm Roman Catholic, by 596 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:13.400 the way, and you mentioned in your video about icons, 597 00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.320 talking about how the Seventh Ecumenical Council actually distributes the 598 00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:23.719 Roman Catholic position, and you basically said that in the 599 00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.039 Seventh Council they gave sulf like limitations and criteria for 600 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.079 icons in within church services and all that. 601 00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:32.679 I was looking. 602 00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:36.360 Yeah, sorry, I just addressed that it's so in the 603 00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.280 Orthodox view the Seventh that Caminical councils, and we don't 604 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:41.840 view it like the Roman Catholics, that there's this like 605 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.199 strict legalistic thing that, oh, that's only the Seventh. That 606 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.239 chemical Council, the Council of eight forty three is what 607 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.760 we celebrate in the Orthodox Church as the victory of 608 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:56.239 Orthodoxy is called triumph of Orthodoxy. So yeah, way that 609 00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.519 council puts out the Sonotacon, which is from A three, 610 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:04.079 which is about the Seventh Ecumenical Council. And by the way, 611 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.400 the Seventh that Gundom Council does have multiple canons that 612 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.960 deal with icons. For example, says not to make icons 613 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.719 of God the Father. So that's one example that easily 614 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:15.800 right there wipes out a whole bunch of Roman Catholic iconography, 615 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:18.039 because in principle you're not supposed to do that. 616 00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:21.280 Now, I'm not saying that all. 617 00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:26.159 Orthodox churches obey this, because sometimes Worthdox churches are not canonical, 618 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.599 but I was pointing out that the principles that you 619 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.960 see even in the canons, even before getting to the 620 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.480 Sonoticon and other documents, the principles already from the outset 621 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:40.440 exclude things like the extreme accesses that you see all 622 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:41.440 throughout the Roman cllegtory. 623 00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.719 Yeah, so that's what as a thing I couldn't really like. 624 00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:45.360 So I saw that. I saw them like in two 625 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.800 candids that talked about you can s how to make 626 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.880 the icons bind sea, it's explicitly how to what is 627 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.800 including in acos always excluded from icons except what obviously 628 00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:57.360 Godfather being depicted. 629 00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.760 Now there's a canon about the God the Father, and 630 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.039 it's actually I think even earlier if I recall the 631 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.320 exclusion of God the Father is actually in Trollo, and 632 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:08.559 then it's restate all the Trello canons, by the way, 633 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.400 are affirmed by and I see it too, by the way, 634 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:12.360 so there's it's not just the canons, and I see 635 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.880 it two. I see you two, also affirms Trollo. 636 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:15.679 Yeah. 637 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.480 Any and then but if I recall even if you 638 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.679 go to New Advent, if you do control F and 639 00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:23.519 you search icon on the canons under the Seventh Council, 640 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.639 there's I'm going from memory here, there's multiple canons to 641 00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:29.679 talk about the icons, the images and all this kind 642 00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:33.960 of stuff. They do not lay out artistic strictures per se. 643 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:37.880 That comes later on in the development of what happens 644 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:39.800 in terms of contrasting the East with the West. 645 00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:45.280 Oh okay, so that so layout you said that came later. 646 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:47.159 What's like time period? 647 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.480 Was that? Was that like after. 648 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.039 Well, if you read this, look up the sonaticon and 649 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.320 the sonatakon, the full one, like not an abridged one, 650 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.280 like the full one from that or what's believed to 651 00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.119 be from that time is pretty lengthy and it all 652 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:01.840 so you know, it goes into some of. 653 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.239 The operating Okay, cool, thanks man. 654 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.039 Yeah no, that's great. 655 00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.000 Questions I put in the in the comments of that 656 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:16.159 video that I'm referring to eight forty three, and that's 657 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:27.239 anauticon Andrew, you want to try again, yes, sir. 658 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:30.920 Hey, just let you know this actually is my first 659 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.239 time speaking on a Twitter space. Sor right, I know, yeah, 660 00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:38.119 I know you were. Hey, Look, so I converted to 661 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:44.039 Catholicism in twenty sixteen. I was raised Calvinist Presbyterian. I 662 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.119 was just starting to read a lot of church history 663 00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:50.480 and in some Catholic apologetics that it made sense. 664 00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:53.320 And then, you know, with the. 665 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.760 Post Vatican two Catholic Church, I was having some theological issues. 666 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:00.599 Yeah, man, you're going through what I went through in 667 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:01.239 the two thousands. 668 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.639 Yeah, and uh, then you know, so then I I've 669 00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:08.599 drifted towards traditionalism, and then and then you know, I've 670 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:11.559 been studying for for a few years, and and then 671 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.400 I'm having other issues. And so lately, you know, I've 672 00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:19.880 been listening to Father Josiah Trinham and in reading some 673 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:23.400 Orthodox stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that's making 674 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.320 sense to me. But this may seem like a simple question, 675 00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:28.880 but I've been reading this book, The Rise and Fall 676 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:35.320 of the Papacy. It's uh talking and the guy's talking 677 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:40.480 about how the ancient church. You know, he's talking about 678 00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:47.519 a lot about the pentarchy, the five patriarchs, and uh, 679 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:51.880 with the schism, here's my question. With the schism between 680 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:56.440 you know, the patriarch of the West and the other patriarchs. 681 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:57.639 How does. 682 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.079 How do they come how does the Orthodox Church now 683 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:02.719 come to like. 684 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:07.960 A consensus base, uh like decision like it do they 685 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:11.599 just like because Rome is in schism just basically ignore 686 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:15.440 them like no, or like don't. 687 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:16.679 Uh yeah. 688 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.519 So the Orthodox view does not believe that Rome is 689 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:22.880 still part of the church. That's how a Vatican two 690 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:24.960 kind of mindset where when they look at us, they 691 00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.119 see us as quote the eastern lung of the Church. 692 00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:29.480 They have this accumenist view. 693 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:34.519 Orthodox ecclesiology does not include heretics and schismatics as amongst 694 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.519 the body of Christ. So no, we do not believe 695 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:40.800 that the papacy continued to be somehow you know, part 696 00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:42.960 of the church or halfway in the church or one 697 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.559 third of the church. No, they left the church. They're 698 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:47.840 not in the church. That's why they have to convert 699 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:52.280 to the church. And that's why every Orthodox church traditionally, classically, 700 00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:56.039 historically has made people go through a profession of the. 701 00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:57.320 Abjuration of heresies. 702 00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:59.400 So when you join the Orthodox Church, are supposed to 703 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:05.199 I sure your previous heresies and mistakes, whether Protestant Calvinists Lutheran. 704 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:05.760 Or Roman Catholic. 705 00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:07.920 So that shows you right there that I mean, you 706 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.280 wouldn't be abjuring your previous heresies if they thought it 707 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:10.679 was the church. 708 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:16.000 Yeah. And another question, do you have any like historical 709 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.400 books that would the like in depth stuff recommendations like 710 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.119 on orthodoxy. 711 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:22.760 In like. 712 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:27.639 Well, I mean, yeah, like there's a bunch, But if 713 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:29.360 you go to my channel when it comes to the 714 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:31.800 questions of like Vatican two and the history of the 715 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:35.280 papacy and those problems. Uh, I mean, I dare say 716 00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:38.119 that I've gone deeper into that topic and more intently 717 00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:41.480 into that topic than the author that you're speaking. 718 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:42.360 Of, or Father Josiah. 719 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:45.920 Not to knock those guys, but I spent many years 720 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.159 in the world of Roman Catholicism and in those documents, 721 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:51.760 and I know those documents better than those guys. I 722 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:54.440 know those documents better than pretty much all the Roman Catholics. 723 00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.159 So I could tell you, like you know where it'll 724 00:43:58.199 --> 00:43:59.920 go in Denzinger, I can tell you where to go 725 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.719 and the you know, Roman Catholic dogmatic councils, like I 726 00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:05.320 know all that stuff really well. So find my old 727 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:09.320 videos about you know, Romancantholisism Vatican. 728 00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:10.519 You know that kind of stuff. 729 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.519 Vatican One contradictions, all that stuff is pretty solid, I 730 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.519 would say from my my channel. I mean, if you're 731 00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:21.280 looking for, you know, Orthodox Church history in this regard, 732 00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:24.239 I would say get the Papa Doccus Mayan North book. 733 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:27.320 The Papacy in the Middle Ages. 734 00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.880 I think that book is really good because it's about 735 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.559 the period when the East and the West split, and 736 00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:38.119 you'll see very clearly that from one thousand to fourteen 737 00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:43.360 hundred the Roman Church clearly went in a different direction 738 00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:46.639 than the pre existing United Church. 739 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:51.159 Hey, thank you so much, and I will check out 740 00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:51.559 your video. 741 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:52.679 Yeah, I mean there's a lot. 742 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.400 There's a lot, but there's also you know, you could 743 00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:57.239 get another You could get Michael Welton's book Two Paths 744 00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:03.840 as kind of a readable, more introductory book. Catholic Father 745 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:04.760 crab people. 746 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:15.320 Hey, there as a Catholic. 747 00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:20.480 The skive them obviously being nearly a thousand years ago, 748 00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.599 seems like a lot of one side. 749 00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.440 Fucked up, the other side fucked up. And then did 750 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:29.320 the spider man mean, uh, you're out, No, you're out. 751 00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:30.239 But I'm the Church. 752 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:31.039 No, you're the Church. 753 00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:42.079 At what point is or the the disunified Orthodoxy and 754 00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.159 that claim to be the true Church and not have 755 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.079 broken apart part of the true Church. At what point 756 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.920 is that fruitful and what part of that is just pride? 757 00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.119 And would it not be beneficial? 758 00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:03.079 Your question assumes that the Roman Catholic Church is unified, 759 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.480 and I can make multiple arguments to demonstrate that it's 760 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.039 not unified. And to accuse the Orthodox Church of pride 761 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.400 is ignoring the papal admissions at the Alexandria Synod and 762 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:15.880 the t eighty Synod which admit that the Roman Church 763 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:18.800 engage in a lot of pride. So, uh, it's a 764 00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.800 question of which one's right, which one's wrong. 765 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.800 It's not a question of you know. 766 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:28.000 I mean, look at the centuries after the Schism, which 767 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:32.039 church evolved away from the canonical structure of the Church 768 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:35.000 of the first thousand years. 769 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.440 Yeah, I haven't studied this forever. 770 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:42.239 So I need you to speak at least in a 771 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.519 way that can be interacted with, you know. 772 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:48.119 And so you're here to debate the topic and you're 773 00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:50.440 accusing us of pride, but you're not familiar with the 774 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:51.519 history that you want to debate. 775 00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:57.000 I'm not I'm not saying that Orthodoxy is incorrect where 776 00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:59.079 you're claiming that Catholicism you. 777 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:00.840 Just said that it was an issue have brought you 778 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:03.320 said centuries of pride without unity. 779 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:07.960 So does the Orthodox claim that Catholics are not Christian. 780 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:13.079 Where the traditional Orthodox position is that the papacy is 781 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:16.719 heterodox for about thirty different reasons. 782 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:21.000 Okay, so the baptism in a Catholic baptism is not 783 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.440 valid and only an Orthodox baptism is valid, saying that 784 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:33.199 everybody else is wrong when the schism went tit for tat. 785 00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:35.719 This is just an appeal to This is just an appeal. 786 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.280 This is just an appeal to emotion. 787 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.440 And the appeal is already assuming that the Catholic position 788 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:43.880 is correct on baptism. So you've not yet demonstrated that 789 00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:47.360 the Catholic ex operary operators position is correct. So your 790 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:49.719 appeal to that and appeal to emotion doesn't work. 791 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:56.559 Okay, have fun, have fun? 792 00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:59.559 So do you want to Why don't you want to 793 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:00.920 talk about the changes? 794 00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:02.960 So he left? So here's what Roman calvics do. 795 00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:04.760 They sit there and they call me names all day, 796 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:07.440 say I'm the worst person ever. They hop on here 797 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.960 to debate when we get into the topics. They have 798 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.400 no knowledge of the topics. They act like that and 799 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:26.119 then they run away. Quay loquay, I me. 800 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:30.920 I have two questions. 801 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:37.360 So the first one is I attend to a Russian 802 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:42.400 Orthodox church, like, is are the teachings that they have 803 00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:44.639 in that church the same as if I go to 804 00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:48.039 let's say, a Greek Orthodox church, you know, or other 805 00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:48.599 like that. 806 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:49.639 Yeah, it's the same. 807 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:53.159 It's the same faith because it's it's called the canonical 808 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:55.239 Orthodox churches, So it's all the ones. 809 00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:55.920 That are in communion. 810 00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:58.440 And even if there's a period when one of the 811 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.480 bishops or the patriarchs are out of communion until there's 812 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:05.480 an excommunication, you it's still quote the same face, yes. 813 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:05.960 All right. 814 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.679 And then I thinks, and I have my second question, 815 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:12.880 which is I went to your website, jasonalysis dot com. 816 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:17.199 I went to the recommended reading section. Are those books 817 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.119 you know? Do I still have to read them? 818 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:20.239 Like? 819 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:23.519 Are they okay for me to read? The ones that 820 00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:26.800 are about Orthodoxy? I'm the apologetics? 821 00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:30.039 What do you mean are they okay? Why wouldn't they 822 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:30.440 be okay? 823 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:33.440 No, I'm just asking just out of curiosity, you know, 824 00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:35.079 that's just it. 825 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:39.679 I mean, I haven't updated that list in a couple 826 00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:42.400 of years, but I don't recall there being anything weird 827 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:43.320 or questionable on there. 828 00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:45.519 I'll take another look at it. Vic. 829 00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:53.679 Hey, I just had two things I wanted to say, 830 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:57.880 just a comment and a question. Uh the comments the 831 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:02.880 article that I mentioned earlier. Uh, just like my opinion 832 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:05.320 on that is just like it seems to me that 833 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:10.159 it's a typical like uh, that article. I mean, it's 834 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:12.800 like a typical like cry bully hall monitor like tone 835 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.320 policing thing where it's like, oh, well, bad people say 836 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:17.800 Christ is king, So you can't say because if you 837 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:19.599 say that means you're like one of them, you know, 838 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:25.159 So I think we should uh just dismiss it in 839 00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:28.599 my in my opinion whatever. And then the question is is, uh, 840 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:32.639 I'm kind of confused a little bit about Plato's dualism, 841 00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:34.960 and I'm sorry this is if this is a bit 842 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.559 of a basic question, But it seems to me that 843 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:43.599 he does have like a binary like oppositions in a 844 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:46.599 system like like uh oh. 845 00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:48.760 Yeah, of course, I mean that's all that's great, reelectic, 846 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:49.239 but like. 847 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.280 For example, like yeah, between material world and the world 848 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.159 of the forms, but like at the same time, there 849 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.639 also seems to be like uh, a hierarchical dualism, if 850 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:00.199 that's like the right way to put it, in the 851 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:03.159 sense that he seems to say that the good is 852 00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:06.840 I'm sorry, evil is the privation of the good, as 853 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:07.639 we would say. 854 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:08.440 So I'm not. 855 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:09.119 I don't know. 856 00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:10.719 It just got me a little bit confused that he 857 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.320 just kind of say, Okay, these things are intentioned and 858 00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:16.920 then these things are kind of like structured hierarchically. 859 00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:23.320 Right, So evil has different senses. Evil can be moral sense, right, 860 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:25.920 which in Christianity we believe that there's a moral sense 861 00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:30.280 to evil, and that's really what's meant in the Bible 862 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:32.320 most of the time when it's talking about, you know, 863 00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:36.159 violating the tank commandments and being an evil person. But 864 00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:38.519 the Church Fathers also make use of the platonic and 865 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:44.719 neoplatonic usage of metaphysically speaking, evils or evil is to 866 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:47.280 do with privation and non being, and that helps them 867 00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:50.679 explain onto logically that evil doesn't have a substance, it 868 00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.440 doesn't have being, and it's not created because everything that. 869 00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:56.719 Exists is created by God and it's called good. 870 00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.519 And so everything that exists has some nature that makes 871 00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:02.079 it what it is, and evil has no nature. There's 872 00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:05.440 not a nature to evil, otherwise we would be Manichaeans. 873 00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:11.320 But Platonism does not distinguish really the ontological sense from 874 00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:14.719 the moral sense. So there's a lack I would say 875 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.679 in Plato that, like, you're never going to get an 876 00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:21.280 explanation in Platonism as to why the One split into 877 00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.840 the diad and into the triad, and why we have 878 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:26.920 why we have all this multiplicity that's supposed to get 879 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:31.639 back to the One. So yeah, Christianity is a moral religion. 880 00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:35.400 I mean, it has metaphysics, but morals are first, and 881 00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:40.000 Greek philosophy is a metaphysics religion. It's not primarily concerned 882 00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:45.440 with morals and ethics first. Man's chief problem is metaphysical. 883 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:48.760 But of course that doesn't mean that Plato doesn't have 884 00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:49.239 a place for. 885 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.679 Ethics and virtues. Certainly he does. He thinks they're intimately connected. 886 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:56.159 But the fact that he thinks that there's a descending 887 00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:01.360 hierarchy of like an ontologically diminished status for the descending 888 00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:04.199 hierarchy of the emanations, like that. 889 00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:06.519 Doesn't mean that they're not. There's not a dialectical. 890 00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:07.599 Okay, thank you, that really clears it up. 891 00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:18.039 Yeah, questions I think that when you get into like Platinus, 892 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:23.159 he tried to synthesize Plato and Aristotles. He's he's actually 893 00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:25.119 trying to deal with some of those problems in both 894 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:26.119 Plato and Aristotle. 895 00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:29.079 It's open for me. You guys want to bring up. 896 00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:36.400 Philosophy, topics, Calvinism, Protestantism, Becauseolicism, Islam, Atheism, church history, papacy, 897 00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:42.679 biblical theology. It's all on the table. We got a 898 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.480 nice crowd of two and twenty in here. Of course, 899 00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:47.719 I didn't think James White would actually show up, but 900 00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:57.679 I don't know why he wouldn't if we need, like 901 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.280 why does he need a year to prepare to debate 902 00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:03.800 like can calvin is stuff that he's debated for the 903 00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:08.800 last thirty years. I don't know why, but no, he's 904 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:10.519 of course he's gonna, you know, so he's too good 905 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.239 to come in here and do that. But whatever, Yeah, 906 00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:16.519 I just don't see why I need to do it 907 00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.119 in person, debate a year from now on the topics 908 00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.239 that are none of the topics that I suggested to 909 00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:26.519 debate with him for the last six seven years. So 910 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:32.320 how about he debate the topics that I, uh, or 911 00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:34.159 maybe there were if there's some happy medium. 912 00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:38.960 He debates the Philly OQUI absolutely my suplicity as as 913 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:42.440 an interestinction and its social contourism like that. But and 914 00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.119 then people who say they want to do in. 915 00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:48.119 Person debates, this is a way to postpone and kind 916 00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:50.639 of you know, throw out there a thing that's really 917 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.960 difficult to set up, and they kind of just hope 918 00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:57.000 that it'll get forgotten. And I also think he loaded 919 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:01.000 his post with a bunch of blame humor, jobs and 920 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:04.840 insults so that I would reply with jobs and insults, 921 00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:06.440 which is what I did, so that he could go 922 00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:09.239 and say, well, look this person's not serious. He replies 923 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:11.280 with jobs and insults. It's like, okay, so when you 924 00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:12.960 do it, it's christ like. And that's what all his 925 00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:15.119 gay followers are like, look at. 926 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.639 This guy, he's not serious. Look at those jobs and 927 00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:19.519 insults as like, you mean. 928 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.320 What DA's white said. So it's a weird double standard. 929 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:25.800 These people are ridiculous. 930 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:36.159 Yes, sir, So I don't know if you I didn't 931 00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:39.639 comment on your debate stream, But have you heard of 932 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:41.639 this guy Naven allegedly Ian. 933 00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:45.679 Now allegedly ian. 934 00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:51.519 He's this atheist right now he's so he basically is 935 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:56.320 trying to argue that God doesn't exist because of slavery 936 00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:59.960 in the Bible, and he basically says that because God 937 00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:03.039 is the perfect lawgiver, therefore it follows that God is 938 00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:06.679 either immoral or does not exist because he sanctioned slavery. 939 00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:08.639 So how would you that? 940 00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.159 Yeah, Lewis just made a two hour documentary on that topic. 941 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:18.559 So yeah, there's nothing that necessitates that a lawgiver can't 942 00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:22.920 give people laws that gradually lead them to an end goal. 943 00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:24.440 So that'd be like. 944 00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:28.280 Saying a parent is a bad parent because they don't 945 00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:31.360 give to their child the laws and the rules that 946 00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:35.000 are appropriate for a teenager or for an adult. So 947 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:39.920 it's just an oversimplification fallacy, I would argue, because the 948 00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:42.960 idea that the ancient world and you know, in this 949 00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.800 barbaric realm, that they were suddenly expected to have the 950 00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:49.039 norms and the ethics of you know, the twenty first 951 00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:51.599 century is just kind of an unrealistic. 952 00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:52.679 Unrealistic expectation. 953 00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.960 And also, how does he know that it's more perfect 954 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:03.599 to immediately give the law of the highest expectations versus 955 00:57:03.639 --> 00:57:07.639 a graduated law giving that leads men over time to 956 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:09.400 more and more higher standards. 957 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:12.239 So he's just assuming that that's what's. 958 00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.519 Entailed in perfection I have, but I have no idea 959 00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:17.440 how he would know, Aufrey or I that that's what's 960 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:18.920 entailed in a perfect lawgiver. 961 00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:20.559 And so you could just ask. 962 00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:23.239 Him, you know, epistemic questions as to on what basis 963 00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:25.400 how do you know that was your justification for that assertion. 964 00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:28.440 So because of he's going. 965 00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.480 To try to reply on rely on biblical ethics and 966 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.559 the revelation of who God is. Well, God revealed it 967 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.840 such that he gradually, in a graduated way, gave laws 968 00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:41.320 to men to lead them to higher and higher standards. 969 00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:47.400 And then Lewis's documentary gets into the history of slavery 970 00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:52.239 in the history of Christianity. So he just put he put, 971 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.639 like I don't know, a lot of time and effort 972 00:57:54.719 --> 00:57:55.079 into that. 973 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:57.559 Lewis was working on that for like the last three 974 00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:02.360 or four years. But away good questions. It's open for him. 975 00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:05.199 If you have a question or a comminent you're you're 976 00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:10.840 welcome to bring it up to the table. If you disagree, 977 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:13.039 you can make an argument. Please make it an argument. 978 00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:14.960 We don't care what you think about me. You can 979 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:16.719 already just say I'm the worst person. I don't care. 980 00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:22.320 You can say I'm tiny mustache man, interbred with Judas, 981 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:30.119 interbred with saar On, interbred with Jeffrey BADONCA doc Dahmer. 982 00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:34.360 I'm all four of those combined into also being a 983 00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:36.719 KGB Massade. 984 00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:40.800 Cia operative who worked with Jeff SIMONC. Geffrey. 985 00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:43.719 So I'm all those guys combined as an operative. So 986 00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.519 now we know I'm the worst person, and then now 987 00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:48.639 we can just move on to the actual topics. 988 00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:59.440 He what's up, Hello, how's it going? 989 00:58:59.559 --> 00:58:59.760 Jay? 990 00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:09.360 Doing well? I could bring up tag correct. I just 991 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:13.599 had one question. So when I brought up tag to 992 00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:17.679 an atheist, he brought up that I was affirming the consequence, 993 00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:19.480 and I was wondering how you'd respond to that. 994 00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:26.320 Yeah, I mean, it's just it's not assuming the thing 995 00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:29.280 in question. So I think if you go watch my 996 00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:36.280 video addressing the top ten objections to tag, and then 997 00:59:36.320 --> 00:59:40.800 there's another one I did, there's the it's the two 998 00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:43.920 most popular tag videos that I did, and I think 999 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.719 I addressed that that objection in both of those videos, 1000 00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:48.840 So go check those out if you want to fuller 1001 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:51.519 it's just misunderstanding what tag is. So first of all, 1002 00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:56.239 tag is not the same thing as the transcendental argument itself. 1003 00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.440 Like transcendent arguments have been used all the way back 1004 00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:02.159 to Aristotle, They've been used all the way back to. 1005 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:10.559 John Damascus and Book one without the knowledge. I mean, 1006 01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:11.880 they have a long. 1007 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:14.360 History. 1008 01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:22.800 Right. So if we look at the claim that if 1009 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.400 you I'm looking this up here, so from the consequent 1010 01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.199 argue for those don't in the audience, the logical fallacy 1011 01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:32.559 where someone incorrectly concludes that if a conditional statement consequent 1012 01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:37.320 the then part, if that's true, then the antecedent must 1013 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:44.519 also be true. So the difference is that we're not 1014 01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:49.159 saying that because God exists, or excuse me, we're not 1015 01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:52.639 saying that because there's knowledge therefore God exists. 1016 01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:57.119 In the sense of like a fallacy where you are 1017 01:00:57.159 --> 01:01:01.239 dealing with normative claims about day to day type stuff 1018 01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:03.960 or day to day type arguments, the difference is that 1019 01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.840 this is dealing with the notion of grounding for an 1020 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:08.800 entire worldview. 1021 01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:11.559 So a lot of times fallacies are dealing with things 1022 01:01:11.599 --> 01:01:15.480 that are not at that level. Right. 1023 01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:18.920 So sometimes when we talk about circularity, right, people say, well, 1024 01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:21.440 you're being you know, the tag is a circular argument, 1025 01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:24.360 you're committing circularity. And then when we say well, at 1026 01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:28.079 the root level, all arguments are circular, they then say 1027 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.400 something like, aha, see you're giving yourself some the free 1028 01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:36.320 reign to use circular argmentation. That's only when you're dealing 1029 01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:39.079 with things not at the level of a paradigm or 1030 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:42.559 a worldview, because part of TAG is already just assumes, 1031 01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:46.360 or it's baked into the argument that everybody's worldview bottoms 1032 01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:48.119 out is something self referencing. 1033 01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:49.880 Now, it's true that. 1034 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:52.280 An atheist could could say, well, I take issue with 1035 01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:54.480 that claim, right, If TAG is built on that, then 1036 01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.960 I take issue with that claim that everything is built 1037 01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:00.360 on something self referencing. And if they do, then ninety 1038 01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:01.920 nine percent of the time they're going to end up 1039 01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:06.119 with some kind of classical foundationalism or self evident principles 1040 01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:07.039 or axioms. 1041 01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:10.400 Right, And the problem is that that's an even worse route 1042 01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:10.679 to take. 1043 01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:12.960 They'd be better off just trying to go after critiquing 1044 01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:16.719 TAG rather than to try to affirm their self evident principles. 1045 01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:19.360 As you saw in the debate with Trent, that's a 1046 01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:23.360 very difficult and impossible task because anytime you try to 1047 01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.159 argue that something is self evident, you also assume a 1048 01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:29.920 standard of self evidence that sets it off from the 1049 01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:33.079 things that are not self evident, and thus that standard 1050 01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:36.920 becomes more fundamental than the so called self evidence principle. 1051 01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.559 And also the self evidence principle is relying upon that standard, 1052 01:02:40.599 --> 01:02:44.079 and thus if it's relying on something it's not self evident. 1053 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:49.280 Beyond that, there's also the criterion problem, which, if you 1054 01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.679 believe in classical foundationalism or self evidence, criterion problem becomes 1055 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:59.119 a problem, and resolving that is more difficult than just 1056 01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:02.440 as saying, okay, fine, some everybody's world view botom is 1057 01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:05.119 out at some point. So what TAG is doing is 1058 01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:08.639 arguing not at the normal day to day level of 1059 01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:11.880 you know, I know Bill Cosby is a bad person 1060 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.559 because you know, let's think, how can we put this 1061 01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:25.719 into a firm of the consequent? If I'm trying to 1062 01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:27.960 think of a way to let's say, what the let's 1063 01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:37.559 find an example of a firm of the consequent, So 1064 01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:39.480 you could say something. 1065 01:03:39.199 --> 01:03:48.480 Like the best advice. 1066 01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:50.960 You could give to a first year university student is 1067 01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.920 to work hard. If you do well at university, you 1068 01:03:54.039 --> 01:03:59.440 will do even better once you've graduated. Wait a minute, 1069 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:08.079 that's not It comes an example. Excuse me, if I 1070 01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:09.599 have caffeine. 1071 01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:11.559 I will be awake all night. I'm awake all night, 1072 01:04:11.639 --> 01:04:12.920 therefore I had caffeine. 1073 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:16.159 So it's a fallacy because there might be multiple reasons 1074 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:19.679 why you're awake all night, and it doesn't necessitate that 1075 01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:22.800 the way that you were awake was through caffeine. But 1076 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:26.400 when we're setting up a transcendental argument that's dealing with 1077 01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:29.719 grounding for a worldview, there's not an infinite number of 1078 01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:34.079 possibilities for how you could ground a transcendental category. So 1079 01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:37.000 you might say something like well, and then a lot 1080 01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:38.519 of the atheists do say this, and when we have 1081 01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:41.920 the space come up, they'll say something like, well, you know, 1082 01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:47.440 if I were to formulate the argument like X is 1083 01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:50.280 the necessary condition of why why? Therefore X? You know, 1084 01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:53.239 knowledge is a PREAKONDI. God is breedish of knowledge. Knowledge exists, 1085 01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:59.440 therefore God. There's not an infinite number of reasons that 1086 01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:03.440 you could or ways that you could ground knowledge, right, 1087 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:09.599 So it's a it's a false comparison to the analogy to. 1088 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:15.920 Sorry, we're trying to drive and I'm trying to give 1089 01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.320 directions too. At the same time good directions. 1090 01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:22.519 Here, it's a false analogy to the caffeine example, because 1091 01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:26.239 there's multiple reasons and explanations for why you might be 1092 01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:28.679 up all night. Maybe you're nervous, maybe you ate some 1093 01:05:28.719 --> 01:05:30.280 weird food, and it's keeping. 1094 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:30.639 You up right. 1095 01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:35.000 So it doesn't necessitate that the only reason that you're 1096 01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:36.159 uphole all night is. 1097 01:05:36.119 --> 01:05:39.079 Because you had caffeine. But to apply that to the 1098 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:41.679 critique of acts as a necessary condition of why why 1099 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:45.360 therefore X, it's not the same thing because the argument 1100 01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:48.639 is about grounding a paradigm and a worldview in transtional 1101 01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:52.199 categories as a whole, and there are not a host 1102 01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:55.280 of things that could ground that. So even if you. 1103 01:05:55.280 --> 01:06:00.000 Thought that tag was somehow affirming the consequence, the argue 1104 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.679 is actually much more radical than that, because it's actually 1105 01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:07.280 arguing that logic itself presupposes God, so you couldn't use 1106 01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:11.639 logic as a way to cancel out or disprove God's 1107 01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:15.679 existence when the argument is about, well, what grounds logic itself? 1108 01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:19.719 So it's actually missing the forest for the trees in 1109 01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:23.559 terms of what's prior to the thing in question, namely logic, 1110 01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:26.480 if that makes sense. So that was along with an explanation, 1111 01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:34.239 but hopefully that's helpful, Like if the question was just 1112 01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:39.880 you know, a mundane example, like if I drink coffee, 1113 01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:42.079 I will stay up all night. I stayed up all night, 1114 01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:45.000 So therefore it was because of coffee. Well maybe, but 1115 01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:48.400 maybe there's other reasons. Right, that's a mundane example. That's 1116 01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:51.480 not the same thing as saying, well, there's infinite ways 1117 01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:58.519 to ground transmit categories and worldviews. There's not like any 1118 01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:04.679 any kind of thing you start listing, like even if 1119 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:06.719 you live, even if you thought there was multiple like, 1120 01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:08.840 they're not going to work to do the grounding work, 1121 01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:13.719 so they're missing what the argument actually is. I think 1122 01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:16.079 people get tripped up because it's an argument for a worldview, 1123 01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:20.199 and it's an argument that's prior to logic itself, so 1124 01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:38.639 it's a metallogical argument. It's open for him. If anybody 1125 01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:41.599 wants to hop on, hit the request to speak, and 1126 01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:47.000 you can come up to the top. We can talk Calvinism, 1127 01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:55.280 tag Protestantism, Catholicism is a long atheism, art history rooms, papacy, 1128 01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:59.519 you want to discuss it. You got it, You got it, dude, 1129 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:04.000 it's open for him. We actually got I thought we 1130 01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:05.880 had two hundred people. There's three hundred and eight people 1131 01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:08.960 in here. I know there's got to be some Calvinist lurkers, y'all. 1132 01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:11.400 Calvin is back there, lurking, y'all lurk, And what y'all 1133 01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:11.840 afraid of? 1134 01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:19.640 John? Danger? We're in danger and John's here. I'm mute. 1135 01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.039 Why did you leave? I don't understand. There's three hundred 1136 01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:30.680 people and nobody wants to come up here and talk 1137 01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:32.159 about any of these topics listened. 1138 01:08:32.239 --> 01:08:32.680 I don't get it. 1139 01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:40.399 There's over three hundred people, Hi, no problem question. 1140 01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:45.680 I was in a debate yesterday and then I was 1141 01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:48.800 listening to what went on afterwards. 1142 01:08:49.600 --> 01:08:56.880 At you dropped out? 1143 01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:57.199 Dude. 1144 01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:07.239 Now he's totally gone. Tell me, dude, is it? Try again? 1145 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:07.960 Try again? 1146 01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:09.039 Coming back there? 1147 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:09.520 Yep? 1148 01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:11.199 Okay, sorry, but I don't know what happened. 1149 01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:14.600 Okay, so I'll just shorten it up here. 1150 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:16.800 A gentleman. 1151 01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:19.720 He proclaims to be uh Eastern Orthodox. 1152 01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:29.840 You must have a bad connection, dude. I don't know. 1153 01:09:29.960 --> 01:09:32.279 Maybe you can get to a space place where you 1154 01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:35.960 got a better connection, but I may not come on now, 1155 01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:40.720 y'all got we got three hundred people in here, over 1156 01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:45.479 three hundred people, and nobody has any objections. I know 1157 01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:46.800 there's a lot of Protestant workers. 1158 01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:48.439 I promise I'll be nice to you unless you want 1159 01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:51.520 a debate, if you want, if you want to ask questions, 1160 01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:52.119 come on up. 1161 01:09:52.159 --> 01:09:53.720 I'll be sweet. 1162 01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:57.720 I'll talk to you like Youbama happy, your mama for you. 1163 01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:02.239 I'll be sweet too. Promise I won't hurt your feelings. 1164 01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:04.800 I love you. I'm your mama on the internet. 1165 01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:07.319 I won't be that thinged bank daddy. 1166 01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:09.279 He's in the dog house. 1167 01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:10.680 He ain't gonna get in tonight. 1168 01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:12.880 I'll be your mama. 1169 01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:13.960 I love you. 1170 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:17.880 Oh you sweet. Internet boys don't won't get your feelings hood, Trent. 1171 01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:23.840 I missed the days of the Internet when. 1172 01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:27.399 Everybody was just uh it was wild West and everybody 1173 01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:29.279 just made fun of everybody, and you expected to get 1174 01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:31.479 your feelings hurt. Now we're in this atmosphere for like 1175 01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:36.039 he should go out ahead, Trent. 1176 01:10:37.239 --> 01:10:40.079 Hey, Jay, Oh, I hope it's all right if I 1177 01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:41.439 get can asked an Orthodox question. 1178 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:45.000 I promise it's not like a basic catechumen one. Okay, Yeah, 1179 01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:45.439 I was. 1180 01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:46.920 Wondering if you can explain to me because in my 1181 01:10:46.920 --> 01:10:49.880 local parish community I haven't really gotten any succinct answers, 1182 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:52.479 but can you like properly explain if like the Russian 1183 01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:55.279 Orthodox Church and Greek Orthodox Church are formerly not in 1184 01:10:55.319 --> 01:10:57.960 communion and if so, what is the consequence of that 1185 01:10:57.960 --> 01:10:59.880 with the ecumenical patriarch. 1186 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.520 As far as I know, they're still out of canonical communion, 1187 01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:08.880 but there has not been a formal excommunication. So church law, 1188 01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:13.439 canon law usually proceeds in stages. Whether it's even the 1189 01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:16.119 Romancallolic Church or whether it's the Orthodox Church, they both 1190 01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:19.199 kind of have some of the same principles about stages 1191 01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:24.439 of canonical procedure, and so if there was an excommunication 1192 01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:27.279 of the EP, they're out of communion right now. But 1193 01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:32.479 for example, we don't rebaptize or quote baptize people who 1194 01:11:32.600 --> 01:11:34.199 were to come to us from the Greeks. We would 1195 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:36.680 still accept them as having the faith. That might be 1196 01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:41.680 different though, if the situation progressed to a full excommunication, 1197 01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:43.920 and then it would be a dependent then it would 1198 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:47.920 be a situation where the other patriarchates would choose sides, 1199 01:11:47.960 --> 01:11:50.560 probably whether you know EP or MP. 1200 01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.399 So hopefully it doesn't get to that, but we have actually. 1201 01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:57.319 Seen multiple types of things and examples of this in 1202 01:11:57.399 --> 01:11:59.960 church history, Like in the first millennium you had patriarchs 1203 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:04.000 and schism many times, and it wasn't the Roman bishop 1204 01:12:04.039 --> 01:12:06.439 who just magically solved that in a lot of these cases. 1205 01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:09.840 You even had recently, I think the Macedonian Church that 1206 01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:13.039 was in schism for like eighty years and they resolved 1207 01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:16.079 that conflict last year, so without the pope. 1208 01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:19.359 So anyway, that's where it stands right now. 1209 01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:20.159 Thank you. 1210 01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:22.239 If I can ask a quick follow up, do you 1211 01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:24.520 foresee it going that direction that's what you want? 1212 01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:24.960 Okay? 1213 01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:26.800 Do you foresee it going that direction with the Greek 1214 01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:28.720 Church based on like your historical understanding. 1215 01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:33.840 I don't know, because you know, it includes a lot 1216 01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.399 of factors. Obviously, the EP is really close to the 1217 01:12:36.399 --> 01:12:38.920 CIA in the State Department, and they're really tied to 1218 01:12:38.960 --> 01:12:43.439 what Washington wants, and uh, you know that makes it 1219 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:46.119 difficult because it's not just religious stuff, a lot of 1220 01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:48.840 political stuff. So I don't know how that will all 1221 01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:51.720 shake out. You know, you could get a situation where 1222 01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:56.159 if Trump ends the the war in Ukraine, if things 1223 01:12:56.199 --> 01:12:58.239 go in that direction, then that could put an end 1224 01:12:58.239 --> 01:12:59.960 to the Ukraine schism, and that could put an end 1225 01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:03.399 to a lot of these actions of the EP which 1226 01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:06.680 contradict his own statements and actions from prior to the war. 1227 01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:09.760 Okay, that's all I had. 1228 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:11.439 Thank you very much, Jay, And also I just wanted 1229 01:13:11.439 --> 01:13:12.920 to say, really appreciate all your work. 1230 01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.279 You helped me a lot fine Orthodoxy. 1231 01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:17.439 Thanks Trent, appreciate that. That's really kind. 1232 01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:32.560 Where As many years to you otis, what's up, man, beam? 1233 01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:35.439 You want to try if Otis can't connect, I'm. 1234 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:43.319 Yeah, what's the matter cracking? 1235 01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:48.359 So for the record, I'm a Calvinist, I'm a reformed Anglican. 1236 01:13:48.399 --> 01:13:52.520 That's my specsum coming from. I'm very much aware of 1237 01:13:52.560 --> 01:13:55.680 your criticisms of Calvinism, and you know about the whole 1238 01:13:55.720 --> 01:14:00.560 like what was it again you say, well, totally means 1239 01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:02.079 that we can't know if we're elected and so on. 1240 01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:04.640 So I understand a lot of your criticisms. 1241 01:14:05.520 --> 01:14:08.279 But I mean that's a very minor criticism. The majority 1242 01:14:08.279 --> 01:14:09.479 of my criticisms are hard. 1243 01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:12.399 Yeah, I know it's one of them, and I know 1244 01:14:12.439 --> 01:14:14.039 they are like other like things. 1245 01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:17.560 You think, Oh, well, the majority of the majority are crystological. 1246 01:14:17.680 --> 01:14:19.840 So maybe if you want to debate that, you can 1247 01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:20.319 address that. 1248 01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:20.600 Well. 1249 01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:23.399 I had a question, if that's fine, just one question 1250 01:14:23.439 --> 01:14:28.720 about these Orthodox position. Okay, yeah, so obviously you know 1251 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:31.359 you used to be a Calvinist. You you at least 1252 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:34.960 know what we think is comforting about Calvinism, right like 1253 01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:39.359 we think that because we're elect we're in God's hands 1254 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:41.880 and salvation doesn't depend on us, and so on, and 1255 01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:45.840 so at least two, maybe the everyday person people can 1256 01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:51.079 understand what the comfort is in Calvinism with unconditional election 1257 01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:53.479 in particular, even if you think it doesn't make sense, 1258 01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:56.640 I get that. But you can see how there is 1259 01:14:56.680 --> 01:15:01.239 a comfort there. How do you because the way I 1260 01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:03.239 understand it, And if you want to just say, well, 1261 01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:07.319 my interpretation's wrong, that's fine. Saint Paul talks of predestination 1262 01:15:07.399 --> 01:15:12.159 as a comfort in scripture, and I just don't understand 1263 01:15:12.880 --> 01:15:16.000 how that makes sense if you don't hold on conditional election. 1264 01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:19.760 How like, is there any comfort in predestination for the 1265 01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:21.439 East Orthodox or not? 1266 01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:25.840 Well, I mean comfort in the sense of we view 1267 01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:29.920 predestination in those passages as primarily dealing with collectives. And 1268 01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:31.920 so if you look at even the statement in Rome's 1269 01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:34.239 nine about Jacob and Esau, if you go back and 1270 01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:37.000 read it in the original passages talking about the nations, 1271 01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:40.640 and so when Paul writes to the Ephesians, for example, 1272 01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:44.079 he calls the entire visible church at Ephesus the predestined, 1273 01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:46.399 he does not single it out for the invisible church. 1274 01:15:46.439 --> 01:15:50.800 Okay, so would you say that there's any comfort we 1275 01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:53.720 can derive as individual Christians. 1276 01:15:53.640 --> 01:15:57.399 Or absolutely, That's what the sacraments are there for, is 1277 01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:02.199 to actually provide that's comfort and assurance that well, I. 1278 01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:06.039 Mean specifically for predestination. Like obviously sacraments of you know, 1279 01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:08.159 they be assured a little bit. 1280 01:16:08.199 --> 01:16:10.239 Again, I mean, I could even I could even say 1281 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:14.720 with the Augustinian position that, like, like Augustine said, even 1282 01:16:14.760 --> 01:16:20.479 if the final persevering elect are the real true quote predestined, 1283 01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:22.680 we don't know who has that, and we don't in 1284 01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:25.039 other words, we don't know who has the gift of perseverance. So, 1285 01:16:25.079 --> 01:16:29.159 for example, even the Augustinian model refutes that idea because 1286 01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:34.279 he believes in a collective predestining, so to speak to grace. 1287 01:16:34.520 --> 01:16:36.880 But that doesn't ensure that, that doesn't ensure that you 1288 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:40.199 have the gifts of perseverance, because many fall away and apostatize. 1289 01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:42.680 All right, thank you, then have a nice one. 1290 01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:55.159 Yeah, good questions. Hold on one second, team. 1291 01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:10.079 I'll go ahead, Bean, Yeah, I just wanted to add 1292 01:17:10.119 --> 01:17:12.880 on to what the guy was seeing, the affirming the 1293 01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:19.199 consequent Uh, the way that tag is argued, I wouldn't say, well, 1294 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:21.560 like tag isn't being argued. 1295 01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:26.399 Uh, let's see, let's see. 1296 01:17:27.239 --> 01:17:28.039 How do I see this? 1297 01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:31.840 I hid it in my head and I just kind 1298 01:17:31.840 --> 01:17:32.760 of figure, hold on. 1299 01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:38.439 All right, well you can you can think about it. 1300 01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:41.680 You can think about it, come back, major danger? What's up? 1301 01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:53.439 Got a mute? 1302 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:03.159 If you want. 1303 01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:22.800 Major danger? Unmute? If you'd like to speak, are you there? 1304 01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:26.399 You gotta turn your mic on? If you guys want 1305 01:18:26.399 --> 01:18:28.760 to speak. I don't like nobody's used. We've been doing 1306 01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:35.279 these spaces for how many years? Are you there? 1307 01:18:38.199 --> 01:18:40.079 Anybody else is open for him? If you'd like to 1308 01:18:40.119 --> 01:18:42.800 come up topics that are alvin. 1309 01:18:42.520 --> 01:18:47.239 Isn't protests, but also is the Muslims church, history of 1310 01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:51.000 deal politics. We can make it whatever we want. Jen, 1311 01:18:51.159 --> 01:18:51.760 what's up? Jen? 1312 01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:10.159 I'm mute, En. Nobody wants to speak. You guys don't 1313 01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:17.720 know how to do this? Go ahead? 1314 01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:28.119 Hello, yep, Hey, how are you doing? Jack? Yeah, what's up? 1315 01:19:28.119 --> 01:19:28.239 Man? 1316 01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:29.319 Uh? 1317 01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:31.760 I'm kind of curious if you know this from your 1318 01:19:31.800 --> 01:19:33.840 study of Catholicism. 1319 01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:35.199 I was Patholic as well. 1320 01:19:35.840 --> 01:19:40.600 I'm something that's I've been wondering is do you think 1321 01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:46.840 there was a theological basis for the Latin Church using 1322 01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:52.600 unleavened bread in the uh in the around the fifth 1323 01:19:52.640 --> 01:19:53.600 to the seventhde Suries. 1324 01:19:57.439 --> 01:20:00.119 Is there a theological basis? I don't know what they 1325 01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:00.760 would have argued. 1326 01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:04.439 I don't know either. I heard theories that because of 1327 01:20:04.479 --> 01:20:08.239 the Germanic migrations they were in a state of penitence, 1328 01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:10.199 and oh, okay. 1329 01:20:10.439 --> 01:20:11.960 I also heard. 1330 01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:15.279 That because of the cutting off of the Mediterranean they 1331 01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:23.000 couldn't receive proper grade for leamon bread from Egypt. So 1332 01:20:23.119 --> 01:20:25.399 I was just curious if you knew anything of like 1333 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:28.159 exactly why they did. 1334 01:20:29.720 --> 01:20:31.760 No, I don't know, And you know, that might be 1335 01:20:31.880 --> 01:20:36.640 a situation where there could be, you know, some canonical 1336 01:20:36.680 --> 01:20:39.720 wiggle room. It's kind of like the Orthodox Church, for example, 1337 01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:44.560 in Japan, as I understand it, Japan, the government mandates 1338 01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:49.079 that people have to get cremated, and Orthodox can of 1339 01:20:49.159 --> 01:20:53.479 law doesn't allow for cremation. But they ruled that it's 1340 01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:57.319 better to have the Church in Japan and accept cremation 1341 01:20:57.479 --> 01:20:59.239 than to not have the Orthodox Church in Japan. 1342 01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:04.000 Oh Canon's are you know? Chirk law is the spirit 1343 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:04.680 of the law, and that's. 1344 01:21:06.119 --> 01:21:06.479 What's up. 1345 01:21:12.159 --> 01:21:20.840 Alright, Hello, all right, so wasting everyone's time in uh defiance? 1346 01:21:20.880 --> 01:21:21.199 What's up? 1347 01:21:21.439 --> 01:21:21.880 Hey man? 1348 01:21:23.279 --> 01:21:26.439 Hey, So I've been listening to you for quite a bit. 1349 01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:29.520 Love your stuff. I kind of am considering myself a 1350 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:36.600 recovering Calvinist. But I have a question about Romans chapter nine. Okay, 1351 01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:40.319 So in Romans chapter nine, Paul kind of lays out 1352 01:21:40.359 --> 01:21:44.840 his case and then he gets to the point and 1353 01:21:44.920 --> 01:21:47.720 I can't I can't cite it exactly, but he gets 1354 01:21:47.720 --> 01:21:50.520 to the point where he kind of anticipates the counter argument, 1355 01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:53.800 and he says something along the lines of so what like, so, 1356 01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:57.000 so what if God did make vessels for wrath and 1357 01:21:57.119 --> 01:21:58.039 vessels for glory? 1358 01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:01.319 You go back to the passage where it's originally cited. 1359 01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:06.520 It's a passage that's talking collectively about nations. Jacob and 1360 01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:11.720 Esau are two nations in the womb. And the point 1361 01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:13.319 that I made to the other guy is that we 1362 01:22:13.399 --> 01:22:16.560 know that it's collective because the same terminology and language 1363 01:22:16.600 --> 01:22:21.680 that Paul uses in Ephesians is used of the collective 1364 01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:25.560 visible church at Ephesus and for the for the Calvinist 1365 01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:29.760 ex of Jesus. To be correct and to work, Paul 1366 01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:31.760 has to then be writing not to the church at 1367 01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:35.039 Ephesus that has a bishop named Timothy, but to the 1368 01:22:35.119 --> 01:22:42.960 elect at Ephesus, who are the unknown, invisible church, Aaron, 1369 01:22:43.119 --> 01:22:56.199 the non binary. So I guess there's like a bunch 1370 01:22:56.239 --> 01:22:59.760 of profiles three, now two, and then this will be 1371 01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:03.079 the third one calling in to play country music. 1372 01:23:03.760 --> 01:23:10.319 Let's see if this one does it. Fat pussy, please 1373 01:23:10.359 --> 01:23:15.640 come play your country music, all right, So guess not 1374 01:23:17.439 --> 01:23:28.720 fry guys, yep. 1375 01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:32.520 I just had a couple of questions. I'm actually an 1376 01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:38.479 Orthodox catechumen converting from Roman Catholicism, and I've been seeking 1377 01:23:38.520 --> 01:23:44.840 out I've been seeking out various Protestant sources and Catholic 1378 01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:49.319 sources for you know, during this mass conversion of Orthodoxy. 1379 01:23:49.640 --> 01:23:52.239 Maybe why you shouldn't convert, just because I'm curious to 1380 01:23:52.239 --> 01:23:54.520 see their arguments, And yeah. 1381 01:23:54.319 --> 01:23:55.640 I think we should be aware of all that. I 1382 01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:56.600 think that's a good thing to do. 1383 01:23:57.439 --> 01:24:00.079 I actually had a little conversation with Redeem zo U 1384 01:24:00.560 --> 01:24:04.840 in the DMS, and I just wanted to ask. He 1385 01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:10.640 mentioned that Oriental Orthodoxy is more quote unchanged than Eastern Orthodoxy, 1386 01:24:11.079 --> 01:24:13.600 and he never really elaborated. Do you know what he 1387 01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:14.359 might mean by that? 1388 01:24:16.159 --> 01:24:19.239 Uh, he's probably just referring to some thing he heard 1389 01:24:19.279 --> 01:24:21.359 somebody say. I don't think he knows anything about any 1390 01:24:21.399 --> 01:24:21.960 of that stuff. 1391 01:24:22.600 --> 01:24:24.600 Yeah, that makes sense to me. 1392 01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:28.359 Another thing he mentioned was was Palamism, and I noticed 1393 01:24:28.359 --> 01:24:30.680 there's a lot of a lot of people who take 1394 01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:34.960 issue with Gregory Palamas. I don't really know why that is. 1395 01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:38.920 Do you know why all these different Protestants really don't 1396 01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:39.399 like Gregory. 1397 01:24:40.279 --> 01:24:42.800 A lot of people are speaking from ignorance, and they 1398 01:24:42.840 --> 01:24:45.479 don't know that the Compadocians teach the essen Sentergi stinction. 1399 01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:48.279 They don't know that Althanatius teaches the ssen sentert sinction. 1400 01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:52.159 Sat Sterrihal teaches it explicitly. He talks about the energies 1401 01:24:52.159 --> 01:24:56.119 that are not the essence. I mean, you can't really 1402 01:24:56.119 --> 01:24:58.119 even have the real presence in the Eucharist without the 1403 01:24:58.319 --> 01:25:02.840 sentergy sinction, because you're don't necessarily have a created grace, 1404 01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:05.640 a created God in the eu Christ which doesn't exist 1405 01:25:05.680 --> 01:25:07.560 or doesn't things that created God, or you're going to 1406 01:25:07.560 --> 01:25:09.479 be getting the divine esdence if you believe in absolute 1407 01:25:09.479 --> 01:25:12.359 divine simplicity, so the only the essence interestinction can make 1408 01:25:12.439 --> 01:25:16.119 sense of the Eucharist. Looks like it's going to be 1409 01:25:16.159 --> 01:25:28.159 another Taylor Swift song, Michelle, I'm mute. Why are you 1410 01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:29.960 raising your hand when I just told you to I'm mute? 1411 01:25:30.800 --> 01:25:31.640 Were you speaking to me? 1412 01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:32.680 Jay? 1413 01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:33.319 Okay? 1414 01:25:33.399 --> 01:25:36.319 Sorry, I think there's a pause between sometimes we request 1415 01:25:36.359 --> 01:25:39.479 and when you tell us to speak, So I apologize. Yeah, 1416 01:25:39.479 --> 01:25:43.439 I just had thanks for your spaces. I pride myself 1417 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:46.119 in being able to comprehend pretty well, but I usually 1418 01:25:46.119 --> 01:25:48.640 have to listen to your recorded spaces and take notes 1419 01:25:48.640 --> 01:25:51.000 and kind of go over it again. So thanks for 1420 01:25:51.079 --> 01:25:55.840 recording them. I was in Jerusalem last year, long story short. 1421 01:25:55.840 --> 01:26:00.479 It was in emphesis and Jerusalem actually left October sixth, believe. 1422 01:26:00.279 --> 01:26:00.600 It or not. 1423 01:26:01.039 --> 01:26:03.560 And while I was there, I just I prayed for 1424 01:26:03.600 --> 01:26:07.159 the Lord to really reveal himself and to send people 1425 01:26:07.199 --> 01:26:11.720 who were true seekers of the truth to me. Orthodox 1426 01:26:11.760 --> 01:26:14.520 priests approached me again, long story short, while I was 1427 01:26:14.560 --> 01:26:18.439 in the Holy sepulcher and said, hey, God told me 1428 01:26:18.479 --> 01:26:21.199 that you wanted to pray with me, and it was 1429 01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:24.880 just wild. Then when I went to Ephesus, almost the 1430 01:26:24.960 --> 01:26:28.239 exact same thing happened. To me, so really diving in 1431 01:26:28.279 --> 01:26:31.680 and studying all this, but on a side I don't know, 1432 01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:36.680 conspiracyal note, do you think or believe that this pope, 1433 01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:40.159 being the first Jesuit pope, is the last pope? And 1434 01:26:40.279 --> 01:26:42.560 do you have any videos or discuss any of the 1435 01:26:42.600 --> 01:26:44.439 Jesuit influence upon the Catholic Church? 1436 01:26:44.520 --> 01:26:44.840 Thank you? 1437 01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:50.399 Oh yeah, this is a topic I love to go 1438 01:26:50.479 --> 01:26:53.119 into and I rarely get asked about it. So the 1439 01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:55.800 greatest book for this is actually written by a traditional 1440 01:26:55.840 --> 01:26:59.439 Roman Catholic. His name is David Wimhoff, and he wrote 1441 01:26:59.640 --> 01:27:05.119 nadam page book called John Courtney John Courtney Murray, Timelife 1442 01:27:05.159 --> 01:27:09.680 Magazine and the Doctrinal Warfare proposition CIA's influence in the 1443 01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:13.960 Cali Church using the Jesuits, particularly John Courtney Murray. That's 1444 01:27:14.039 --> 01:27:17.359 obviously more of a twentieth century analysis, particularly Vatican two, 1445 01:27:17.439 --> 01:27:21.680 in the post Vatican two era soft power usage of 1446 01:27:21.720 --> 01:27:24.479 the Cali Church by the American deep state. It's a 1447 01:27:24.479 --> 01:27:28.479 really really well researched, le well referenced. I mean has 1448 01:27:28.560 --> 01:27:32.239 I think eight hundred foot notes. So Wemoff's book is 1449 01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:37.079 probably the best, absolute perfect book on the topic. I 1450 01:27:37.159 --> 01:27:41.039 have lectured about seven or eight hours on that book 1451 01:27:41.119 --> 01:27:43.640 on my YouTube channel, and so if you just look 1452 01:27:43.720 --> 01:27:48.880 up Jesuits, Cia, OSS wm Off, you'll get all of those. 1453 01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:53.159 Another good book on this is Operation Gladio by Paul Williams, 1454 01:27:53.199 --> 01:27:56.720 who is also a Catholic who I think is like 1455 01:27:56.760 --> 01:28:00.640 a history professor. He wrote on this, and I think 1456 01:28:00.680 --> 01:28:03.279 he's kind of pretty much done with Catholicism after he 1457 01:28:03.319 --> 01:28:06.479 went deep into the Gladio rabbit hole. But Gladio also 1458 01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:09.279 is adjacent to all this through the Jesuits too. It 1459 01:28:09.279 --> 01:28:12.319 doesn't it's not explicitly about Jesuits, but it's about the 1460 01:28:12.319 --> 01:28:15.600 CIA's connection to the Vatican Bank and all that. Written 1461 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:18.319 by and again another Catholic who's not a quote conspiracy theoristy, 1462 01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:21.479 he's a professor. So those are two that deal more 1463 01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:25.680 recently with that. In road to the Roman Catholic Church. 1464 01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:28.159 I think that there's a lot of kind of low 1465 01:28:28.239 --> 01:28:31.520 tier Seven Day Aventists type people that are idiots. They 1466 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:34.279 think that the Jesuits around the world that stuff's really stupid. 1467 01:28:34.800 --> 01:28:36.800 But the Jesuits do have a role to play in 1468 01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:40.840 kind of influencing the Roman Catholic Church to be what 1469 01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:45.159 it is nowadays with this hyper liberalization, especially with Francis. 1470 01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:48.720 I think Francis is really the the ultimate example of that. 1471 01:28:48.960 --> 01:28:51.800 And you know, he was already kind of allied with 1472 01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:55.439 the CIA in Operation Condor, and it's so you know, 1473 01:28:55.439 --> 01:28:59.239 if you follow his trajectory, it really makes there's no 1474 01:28:59.319 --> 01:29:03.600 surprise there that he would, you know, be friends with 1475 01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:07.479 all the people from Davos. You know, his mentor is 1476 01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:10.720 one of Klaus's best friends from you know, World Economic Forum. 1477 01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:14.640 He promotes the United Nations the World Economic Forum values 1478 01:29:14.640 --> 01:29:17.880 and ideas. So I think it's pretty transparent nowadays. If 1479 01:29:17.920 --> 01:29:20.279 you talked about this a while back, you know, this 1480 01:29:20.479 --> 01:29:23.000 was this is all you're crazy, it's crazy, coup plant. 1481 01:29:23.560 --> 01:29:26.000 But all this stuff is actually pretty well documented. It was, 1482 01:29:26.159 --> 01:29:29.439 it was in all the geopolitical literature. Just a lot 1483 01:29:29.439 --> 01:29:32.199 of people don't know about it. I think that's more 1484 01:29:32.239 --> 01:29:37.479 important than even you know, the origins of Ignacious, Loyola 1485 01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:38.600 and the Jesuit Order. 1486 01:29:38.640 --> 01:29:40.279 I mean, all that stuff is interesting, it's. 1487 01:29:40.079 --> 01:29:44.479 Fascinating, and they have a curious history. I wouldn't be 1488 01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:50.119 surprised if Ignacious' model of spiritual exercises wasn't borrowed from 1489 01:29:50.199 --> 01:29:51.359 his esoteric days. 1490 01:29:53.079 --> 01:29:54.000 So for those that don't know. 1491 01:29:54.920 --> 01:30:02.119 Uh, Ignacious Loyol of the before he converted to Catholicism, 1492 01:30:02.279 --> 01:30:06.039 was involved in some kind of esoteric group. I don't 1493 01:30:06.079 --> 01:30:08.840 They weren't the Illuminati, but they called themselves something like 1494 01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:11.239 the Illuminatos or the Enlightened Ones. 1495 01:30:11.159 --> 01:30:11.800 Or something like that. 1496 01:30:12.720 --> 01:30:15.319 And I'm not even saying that that necessarily means his 1497 01:30:15.359 --> 01:30:19.359 conversion wasn't genuine. I mean, he could have been fully genuine, 1498 01:30:19.399 --> 01:30:24.800 but regardless, he did bring a lot of those spiritual 1499 01:30:24.840 --> 01:30:28.800 practices quote unquote into the Jesuit order, and then that 1500 01:30:28.880 --> 01:30:33.520 became something that was very useful for cell networks and 1501 01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:34.680 intelligence networks. 1502 01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:49.880 So there's a long history to this, Brandon, it was a. 1503 01:30:51.199 --> 01:30:54.640 I did a quick question, well a two part question. 1504 01:30:55.560 --> 01:31:00.119 So the first one is given the chaos of the 1505 01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:08.760 early Church prior to the Nice Scene Council, and I 1506 01:31:08.840 --> 01:31:13.520 suppose I've heard this on Joe Rogan's podcast, but do 1507 01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:18.000 you think there's any credibility to this idea that the 1508 01:31:18.079 --> 01:31:23.520 early Church might have incorporated psychedelics in their Eucharist? And 1509 01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:25.800 as a follow up question, do you think there's any 1510 01:31:26.359 --> 01:31:30.039 spiritual value to the use of psychedelics. 1511 01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.239 No, I don't think there's anything incredible at all about that. 1512 01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:39.920 John Aleegro was kind of rejected and kicked out of 1513 01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:43.199 academia when he proposed the theory some decades ago. It's 1514 01:31:43.279 --> 01:31:45.720 kind of just seen still as a quack theory. I 1515 01:31:45.720 --> 01:31:48.520 don't think there's really anything in Christianity at all amenable 1516 01:31:48.520 --> 01:31:53.880 to or consistent with pollucinogenics. I mean, even even Alvis Toxley, 1517 01:31:53.920 --> 01:31:59.359 who wrote about superiority of pollucinogens to bread and wine 1518 01:31:59.359 --> 01:32:03.079 and the Eucharist, didn't think that there was anything hallucinogenic 1519 01:32:03.119 --> 01:32:09.000 about Christianity's notion of the Eucharist. And there could be, 1520 01:32:09.359 --> 01:32:13.920 you know, some usage for extreme cases of people with extreme. 1521 01:32:15.079 --> 01:32:16.479 Like I had a friend. 1522 01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:19.359 Who was an extreme alcoholic and drank himself to death, 1523 01:32:20.159 --> 01:32:23.479 and I would have said maybe in his case, like, 1524 01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:26.600 since he was at the point of almost dying, like, 1525 01:32:26.840 --> 01:32:27.840 might as well. 1526 01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:32.640 Try some kind of you know whatever. 1527 01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:36.439 However, they do the therapy with you know, aohuasc or whatever, 1528 01:32:36.479 --> 01:32:41.119 which sometimes works for people who have extreme addictions. 1529 01:32:41.399 --> 01:32:46.760 So maybe in extreme cases, but no, I don't think 1530 01:32:46.960 --> 01:32:50.000 generally speaking, human beings should be trying to have spiritual 1531 01:32:50.000 --> 01:33:05.399 experiences with hallucinogens. Rhodesian chet Hanks, Hey J. 1532 01:33:06.319 --> 01:33:10.199 Sorry, my audio kind of went out. One interesting thing 1533 01:33:10.239 --> 01:33:13.000 you mentioned about Huxley, and I think why Orthodox should 1534 01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:16.359 always avoid psychedelics is you put your trust in them. 1535 01:33:16.439 --> 01:33:20.119 I think Huxley died tripping. He like asked for a 1536 01:33:20.119 --> 01:33:23.640 bunch of acid on his deathbed. Yeah, thanks, so yeah, 1537 01:33:23.680 --> 01:33:26.239 so I mean that kind of summarizes it well anyway, 1538 01:33:26.319 --> 01:33:26.680 thank you. 1539 01:33:29.439 --> 01:33:30.640 Yeah, that's an interesting point. 1540 01:33:30.680 --> 01:33:36.319 I mean, you know, I think when Orthodox saints and 1541 01:33:36.359 --> 01:33:37.319 elder's comments on. 1542 01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:40.239 This, they talk about it like, Okay, yeah, you. 1543 01:33:40.279 --> 01:33:46.600 Might be opening your you know, noetic faculties to the 1544 01:33:46.640 --> 01:33:49.640 spiritual realm when you do that, but that doesn't mean 1545 01:33:49.640 --> 01:33:51.680 that you're ready for the spiritual realm, and that doesn't 1546 01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:57.159 mean that it's the approved method for looking into the 1547 01:33:57.199 --> 01:34:00.239 spiritual realm either, which is why it can, you know, 1548 01:34:00.319 --> 01:34:04.079 terrify you and drive you insane. I'm not saying that everybody. 1549 01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:06.560 I've done hallucinogen, so I'm well aware of how it works, 1550 01:34:06.880 --> 01:34:09.479 and not everybody who trips goes insane. But it's sort 1551 01:34:09.479 --> 01:34:12.119 of like, I don't know, it's like playing spiritual roulette 1552 01:34:12.199 --> 01:34:14.920 or something like you could go and say, Henry, what's up? 1553 01:34:26.119 --> 01:34:41.079 Yeah, seth, good, Yes. 1554 01:34:43.079 --> 01:34:44.560 I've got a question. 1555 01:34:46.119 --> 01:34:50.520 So I'm I'm kind of a person, but I'm like 1556 01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:54.960 ninety percent of my way to deciding to become an 1557 01:34:54.960 --> 01:34:55.840 Eastern Orthodox. 1558 01:34:56.600 --> 01:34:58.159 But I have a question about ikons. 1559 01:35:00.279 --> 01:35:09.479 Sure, I mean, so it's explained as windows to the divine, right, Yeah, 1560 01:35:09.520 --> 01:35:13.640 but I'm curious as to like, what do they reveal 1561 01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:15.680 that scripture doesn't. 1562 01:35:18.520 --> 01:35:21.880 Well, they're essentially the same type of revelation as scriptures, 1563 01:35:21.880 --> 01:35:25.880 So in a sense, what they reveal that scripture doesn't 1564 01:35:25.920 --> 01:35:29.640 would be the facts and the history and the lives 1565 01:35:29.640 --> 01:35:32.159 of the saints who lived after the scriptures. 1566 01:35:32.159 --> 01:35:34.239 So that's one thing they reveal. 1567 01:35:34.279 --> 01:35:36.520 I mean, Gregory Poulomas is a saint and he's not 1568 01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:39.319 in the Bible, So it reveals to us things about 1569 01:35:39.359 --> 01:35:40.239 saints after. 1570 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:41.319 The time of the apostles. 1571 01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:45.039 Even the icons that are, you know, scenes of even 1572 01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:48.439 the icons that are the scenes of like biblical imagery, 1573 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:52.119 like the the Theophany or christ Baptism. I mean, those 1574 01:35:52.319 --> 01:35:56.399 icons are the same messages and meaning of the Bible. 1575 01:35:56.439 --> 01:35:59.600 It's just a different medium or firm because written texts 1576 01:36:00.159 --> 01:36:02.359 are not the only way in which God speaks to us. 1577 01:36:02.399 --> 01:36:05.920 Because God created the beauty of the natural world. God 1578 01:36:05.960 --> 01:36:09.119 wanted his Temple in Jerusalem to be beautiful and full 1579 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:14.560 of iconography, and so God is just also fine with 1580 01:36:14.760 --> 01:36:19.039 revealing himself and truths about himself and his people through 1581 01:36:19.319 --> 01:36:23.199 icons and through beauty and not just through written texts. 1582 01:36:23.279 --> 01:36:28.520 Yeah, and I know icon veneration is quite like it's 1583 01:36:28.560 --> 01:36:36.680 a big thing. But besides polycarphs like bones that could 1584 01:36:36.720 --> 01:36:41.760 be considered venerated, like what other examples like in the 1585 01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:43.760 early days would they be? 1586 01:36:46.039 --> 01:36:46.279 Well? 1587 01:36:46.319 --> 01:36:50.039 For example, all the early churches, even in the catacombs, 1588 01:36:50.039 --> 01:36:51.399 have altars and had. 1589 01:36:51.279 --> 01:36:52.840 The eucharists on the altars. 1590 01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:54.920 So if you go to the catacombs in Rome, you'll 1591 01:36:54.960 --> 01:36:58.880 see the altars when the church was persecuted down in 1592 01:36:59.079 --> 01:37:02.840 the catacomb, and even when the basilicas began to be 1593 01:37:02.920 --> 01:37:08.640 converted after Roman, after Catholicism was no longer persecuted. The basilicas, 1594 01:37:08.680 --> 01:37:12.439 which are houses like fancy houses that you know senators 1595 01:37:12.439 --> 01:37:16.439 and elite Roman you know senators used to live in 1596 01:37:16.520 --> 01:37:19.720 or whatever like, when they converted the houses into churches, 1597 01:37:19.760 --> 01:37:24.000 they would set up barriers or communion rails, which means 1598 01:37:24.039 --> 01:37:26.199 that not everybody had access to the eucharists. So that 1599 01:37:26.239 --> 01:37:28.920 itself tells you that there's a reverence for the euchrost itself. 1600 01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:33.640 So the Eucharist is the icon part excellence that Protestants 1601 01:37:34.279 --> 01:37:38.039 and people who you know, criticize this point always missed. 1602 01:37:38.039 --> 01:37:40.600 They don't understand, well, the euchroust itself is that, but 1603 01:37:40.680 --> 01:37:43.880 the altar itself is holy, and the altar itself is 1604 01:37:43.920 --> 01:37:47.359 what became a tradition for the Church to put relics in. 1605 01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:50.199 So this is an ancient, you know, early church tradition 1606 01:37:50.319 --> 01:37:54.880 to put relics in the altar. And then the cross 1607 01:37:55.159 --> 01:37:58.119 quite naturally became something that was venerated very early in 1608 01:37:58.159 --> 01:38:01.760 the church. The monastics were doing the sign of the 1609 01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:05.119 Cross very early in church tradition. So all of these 1610 01:38:05.119 --> 01:38:11.960 things show the principle, including holy water two of sacramental theology, 1611 01:38:12.079 --> 01:38:15.199 which is the very point and the purpose behind iconography. 1612 01:38:15.760 --> 01:38:17.760 So people miss all of that and they don't even 1613 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:20.119 look at It's. 1614 01:38:19.920 --> 01:38:20.640 Like, well, howk them. 1615 01:38:20.680 --> 01:38:24.359 There weren't giant icons put up everywhere in the second 1616 01:38:24.399 --> 01:38:27.680 third century. You mean, because the church was in the catacombs. 1617 01:38:28.039 --> 01:38:30.880 But guess what, when you go on the catacombs, there's imagery. 1618 01:38:31.880 --> 01:38:33.840 I've been to the catacombs in Rome, and I've only 1619 01:38:33.840 --> 01:38:37.039 been to one of them there everywhere, and they have imagery, 1620 01:38:37.479 --> 01:38:39.600 so they have pictures of Jesus, they have pictures of 1621 01:38:40.039 --> 01:38:44.000 Bible scenes. If you go to the Dura Europo Synagogue, 1622 01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:48.039 it has images and iconography everywhere on the walls. 1623 01:38:48.920 --> 01:38:51.159 Okay, cool, thanks, that's so logic. 1624 01:38:53.439 --> 01:38:53.640 Yeah. 1625 01:38:53.640 --> 01:38:55.359 I have a video where I discussed this, and I 1626 01:38:55.359 --> 01:38:59.239 actually go into a Protestant liturgical historian, Hugh Wiber's book 1627 01:38:59.239 --> 01:39:03.560 Byzantine Liturgy. The first chapter of that book refutes all 1628 01:39:03.600 --> 01:39:06.760 the Gavin Ortland stuff and the James White stuff. I've 1629 01:39:06.800 --> 01:39:10.720 shared that probably twenty times on Twitter. Go watch my 1630 01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:14.960 video that's like twenty minutes refuting Gavin Ortland on icons. 1631 01:39:14.960 --> 01:39:17.000 I think it's like a twenty minute video. All I 1632 01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:20.560 do is cite Protestant liturgical historians. So I don't know 1633 01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:24.720 why I'm not dissing you. It's just like it's like 1634 01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:25.199 the same. 1635 01:39:25.359 --> 01:39:30.600 This is like stuff like kicks up for whatever reason. 1636 01:39:30.920 --> 01:39:33.840 And if people are like, oh, everybody's arguing over something 1637 01:39:33.880 --> 01:39:38.960 that we've been making videos about for like seven years. 1638 01:39:38.039 --> 01:39:40.800 Like go watch all the videos already made on this Darius. 1639 01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:41.239 What's up? 1640 01:39:43.279 --> 01:39:45.560 In fact, maybe I can find that video and put 1641 01:39:45.560 --> 01:39:48.079 it underneath this for you guys, because I know everyone 1642 01:39:48.159 --> 01:39:52.600 is too lazy to actually find a video. No one 1643 01:39:52.640 --> 01:39:56.000 knows how to use search functions anymore. So it's about 1644 01:39:56.000 --> 01:39:58.079 the fourth one that comes up when I search for it. 1645 01:39:58.119 --> 01:39:59.840 So I'm gonna put it under here for you guys. 1646 01:40:00.600 --> 01:40:07.159 Go ahead, did it my churn? Yes, sir. 1647 01:40:07.920 --> 01:40:10.199 Oh, hey, mister Dyer. I just want to say I 1648 01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:13.680 appreciate you and your your work. It's been very helpful. 1649 01:40:13.760 --> 01:40:17.680 My friend has helped me converting to decent Orthodoxy. I 1650 01:40:17.720 --> 01:40:20.520 actually graduated from Master's University, and I've had a lot 1651 01:40:20.520 --> 01:40:25.920 of questions and I actually asked John MacArthur at a 1652 01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:29.119 Q and A myself, which is, I'll give you permission 1653 01:40:29.199 --> 01:40:33.199 to uh not permission to call me on the video 1654 01:40:33.239 --> 01:40:35.039 at a Q and A about the Master dem Nada. 1655 01:40:35.960 --> 01:40:38.359 So there's a video of it. I don't know if 1656 01:40:38.359 --> 01:40:40.399 you can d M me or something. I can't send 1657 01:40:40.439 --> 01:40:46.319 you the link, but I wanted to ask more about 1658 01:40:46.439 --> 01:40:52.239 the the Nestorianism with the mass uh maskedev nada. I 1659 01:40:52.239 --> 01:40:55.479 think that's how you pronounce it. I'm having. 1660 01:40:56.840 --> 01:40:57.479 Notorianism. 1661 01:40:58.399 --> 01:41:01.520 Yeah, yeah, I've watched I've watched videos, a lot of them. 1662 01:41:01.560 --> 01:41:03.720 I watched all of them, but I'm still having trouble 1663 01:41:04.319 --> 01:41:10.279 like understanding it are like the has to put it 1664 01:41:10.279 --> 01:41:11.760 in my own words of. 1665 01:41:12.640 --> 01:41:15.279 Wow, okay, hold on, hold on, So let's let's distinguish 1666 01:41:15.359 --> 01:41:15.720 some things. 1667 01:41:15.720 --> 01:41:17.560 So can you mute? It's really loud, so just meet 1668 01:41:17.560 --> 01:41:22.359 for a second. Oh, I apologize, It's okay, it's me 1669 01:41:22.479 --> 01:41:26.399 for a second. Okay. 1670 01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:31.000 So mass Damnata is an Augustinian teaching based on his 1671 01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:35.000 reading of Romans five, that all human beings are in 1672 01:41:35.159 --> 01:41:38.800 Adam as in an archetype. He speaks of this explicitly, 1673 01:41:38.840 --> 01:41:41.680 for example, in the City of God. I've lectured through 1674 01:41:41.680 --> 01:41:43.479 the entirety of the City of God and we covered 1675 01:41:43.479 --> 01:41:44.960 the sections where he talks about this. 1676 01:41:45.640 --> 01:41:47.680 The idea is that basically. 1677 01:41:47.479 --> 01:41:50.039 We all not only send in Adam, but we were 1678 01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:53.199 also guilty in Adam because we were in his loins 1679 01:41:53.239 --> 01:41:55.520 as in an archetype, in him, like in a kind 1680 01:41:55.520 --> 01:41:58.840 of neoplatonic way. So that means that when an infant 1681 01:41:58.880 --> 01:42:01.560 is born or from sect from the second of conception, 1682 01:42:02.199 --> 01:42:04.479 the infant is not only liable to the effects of 1683 01:42:04.520 --> 01:42:07.800 original sin, he's also guilty of original sin and thus 1684 01:42:07.960 --> 01:42:11.760 liable to full on damnation and torments. 1685 01:42:12.199 --> 01:42:13.960 So that's what mass damnotomys. 1686 01:42:14.239 --> 01:42:16.840 And the only people who get out of that in 1687 01:42:16.880 --> 01:42:20.920 the Augustinian system are those who are not just predestined, 1688 01:42:20.960 --> 01:42:24.079 but in this life come to the church, come to 1689 01:42:24.119 --> 01:42:29.399 the font, get baptized, and persevere until the end, and 1690 01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:31.880 thus demonstrate that they were one of the elects. So 1691 01:42:32.000 --> 01:42:34.319 you have that's why he wrote a treatise called on 1692 01:42:34.399 --> 01:42:38.000 the Gift of Perseverance. But he also wrote other books 1693 01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:41.399 on operative and cooperative grace, et cetera, none of which 1694 01:42:42.159 --> 01:42:45.560 is consistent with the Calvinist teaching, because Augustine did not 1695 01:42:45.600 --> 01:42:48.840 believe ultimately in an invisible church. He believed that the 1696 01:42:48.920 --> 01:42:52.960 visible church has a visible structure that is unified, it 1697 01:42:53.039 --> 01:42:56.800 is singular, it has the means of grace alone through 1698 01:42:56.920 --> 01:43:00.760 the sacraments. He believed in praying for dead, He believed 1699 01:43:00.760 --> 01:43:02.840 in all the things that we believe. He doesn't believe 1700 01:43:02.880 --> 01:43:06.079 the things that the Calvinists believe, So that's mass damnata. 1701 01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:12.920 Nasaurianism is a different situation where the patriarchal Constantinople started 1702 01:43:12.960 --> 01:43:16.439 teaching that Mary is not the mother of God, meaning 1703 01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:18.279 that the person that she gave birth to was not 1704 01:43:18.880 --> 01:43:21.119 the divine person of the word, the second person of 1705 01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:24.760 the Godhead, but rather that there's a dual subject going 1706 01:43:24.800 --> 01:43:27.920 on in the life of Christ, where at times it 1707 01:43:28.039 --> 01:43:31.840 is the subject Jesus of Nazareth, who's a human subject, 1708 01:43:32.079 --> 01:43:34.479 and at other times it's the second person that God had, 1709 01:43:34.520 --> 01:43:37.800 the logos, who is speaking and revealing himself in the gospels. 1710 01:43:38.119 --> 01:43:41.760 And so when Nastorius is condemned at Ephesus, he's condemned 1711 01:43:41.840 --> 01:43:47.199 for a dual subject Christology, that saying Cyril writes about extensively. 1712 01:43:47.479 --> 01:43:49.520 So those are two separate topics, but I'm happy to 1713 01:43:49.560 --> 01:43:50.439 address either one. 1714 01:43:52.319 --> 01:43:53.720 I appreciate that, brother, Thank you. 1715 01:43:56.840 --> 01:43:59.880 So what was the question about mass Dunn and John MacArthur. 1716 01:44:00.239 --> 01:44:03.560 I was Oh, I asked him. Uh, I asked him 1717 01:44:04.520 --> 01:44:08.039 back in twenty twenty one. I went to the pulpit, 1718 01:44:08.399 --> 01:44:11.199 you know, because I grew up not reform, but whatever. 1719 01:44:11.279 --> 01:44:14.359 I asked him, was there a break in the trinity? 1720 01:44:14.600 --> 01:44:18.800 Because you know, you just said, Father, Father, why have 1721 01:44:18.920 --> 01:44:21.600 you forsaken me? And I was expressing and I asked 1722 01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:25.039 him like, how wasn't there a break because it seems 1723 01:44:25.159 --> 01:44:29.319 like it and in the video, I don't know. You 1724 01:44:29.399 --> 01:44:32.600 can go to my Facebook or something like that if 1725 01:44:32.640 --> 01:44:35.760 you search up my name. In the video, he says 1726 01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:40.039 basically that yes, there was a separation. 1727 01:44:40.359 --> 01:44:43.079 And then wow, that's awesome. Find that. 1728 01:44:43.600 --> 01:44:46.720 So yeah, if you I don't know, can you DM 1729 01:44:46.880 --> 01:44:48.720 on Twitter or something, I can give it to you. 1730 01:44:49.000 --> 01:44:51.479 Well, why don't you just post it underneath this thread here, 1731 01:44:51.560 --> 01:44:54.760 put it as a comment and I'll play that on 1732 01:44:54.840 --> 01:44:57.720 the live stream or something. But yeah, that's different. So 1733 01:44:57.880 --> 01:45:01.279 mauth da'maa is the Augustinian doctrine. The argument that I 1734 01:45:01.359 --> 01:45:06.279 make about penal substitutionary atonement is that the Classical Reformation tradition, 1735 01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:09.520 when they interpret the text my God, My God, why 1736 01:45:09.560 --> 01:45:12.680 have you forsaken me? All the Classical Reformers believe that 1737 01:45:13.000 --> 01:45:17.560 Jesus of Nazareth was damned on the cross, and so 1738 01:45:17.640 --> 01:45:20.319 if you believe he's a divine person, you split the 1739 01:45:20.359 --> 01:45:24.720 trinity because damnation means a severance from the presence, love 1740 01:45:25.279 --> 01:45:28.760 and unity of God and divine life. So you're saying 1741 01:45:28.840 --> 01:45:31.039 that the second person of the God had was severed 1742 01:45:31.119 --> 01:45:35.239 from the divine love, unity and presence of the Father, 1743 01:45:35.600 --> 01:45:40.159 which is impossible. It's anti Trinitarians stupid, But Calvinists don't 1744 01:45:40.159 --> 01:45:44.359 care about Trinitarian theology. They'd rather do their steriology first, 1745 01:45:44.920 --> 01:45:46.359 and if that screws up the. 1746 01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:48.399 Trinity down the road, who cares? Right. 1747 01:45:49.079 --> 01:45:54.520 But in the Orthodox position, seteriology is downstream from triadology. 1748 01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:56.560 It's the other way around. It's the reverse. 1749 01:45:56.640 --> 01:45:58.560 And that's why no Calvinists will ever be able to 1750 01:45:58.600 --> 01:46:01.640 win a debate when it comes to the monarchical trinity 1751 01:46:01.800 --> 01:46:03.760 versus their stupid heterodox trinity. 1752 01:46:04.840 --> 01:46:16.760 Often. Hey j how are you fine with that? 1753 01:46:17.680 --> 01:46:17.840 Hey? 1754 01:46:18.119 --> 01:46:20.880 So, I just had a quick question about epistemology. 1755 01:46:21.920 --> 01:46:23.880 From some of your videos I've watched, I've seen that 1756 01:46:23.960 --> 01:46:29.640 you don't just allow claims, so you want epistemological justification 1757 01:46:29.840 --> 01:46:32.840 for things. But also at the same time, i've heard 1758 01:46:32.920 --> 01:46:35.840 you say, well a lot of claims kind of have 1759 01:46:36.000 --> 01:46:41.640 at the base level, kind of like epistemological circularity. 1760 01:46:42.880 --> 01:46:45.279 Yeah. I literally just addressed this about twenty minutes ago. 1761 01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:51.199 Go ahead, okay, I'll tune back in. Fine, you can 1762 01:46:51.279 --> 01:46:53.479 ask a question again, Go ahead, okay. 1763 01:46:53.600 --> 01:46:56.880 So, like, if I wanted to say something like, well, 1764 01:46:56.960 --> 01:46:59.800 I know I'm a conscious being, like there is consciousness, 1765 01:47:00.479 --> 01:47:03.359 I mean I can't in your world. I want to 1766 01:47:03.399 --> 01:47:06.359 be able to say that's self evident. And if not, like, 1767 01:47:06.479 --> 01:47:09.199 how would I justify something like that. 1768 01:47:11.720 --> 01:47:14.640 Right, So, I mean, the first point is that anybody 1769 01:47:14.680 --> 01:47:20.600 who doesn't want to believe in recursive, you know, paradigm 1770 01:47:20.760 --> 01:47:24.119 level questions being self referencing, they're going to, most likely 1771 01:47:24.239 --> 01:47:25.800 ninety nine percent of the time they're going to be 1772 01:47:26.079 --> 01:47:29.920 some form of foundationalist in terms of epistemology. And if 1773 01:47:29.960 --> 01:47:33.520 you're a foundationalist, you're gonna have to deal with their 1774 01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:36.600 criterion problem. You're gonna have to deal with how we 1775 01:47:36.800 --> 01:47:39.359 know what's self evident and why is that self evident? 1776 01:47:39.399 --> 01:47:43.159 Which is going to rely on some prior principle that 1777 01:47:43.520 --> 01:47:46.680 susses out the non self evident from the self evident. 1778 01:47:47.119 --> 01:47:48.680 And if the self evident things. 1779 01:47:48.520 --> 01:47:51.960 Rely on a principle which teases out the self evident 1780 01:47:52.039 --> 01:47:54.720 and non self evident, then it's no longer self evident 1781 01:47:54.760 --> 01:47:58.199 because it's relying on another principle because by definition, self 1782 01:47:58.239 --> 01:48:01.439 evident principles can't rely on other truths or other things. 1783 01:48:01.840 --> 01:48:03.800 If you watch the Trent Horn debate, the whole debate 1784 01:48:03.880 --> 01:48:07.079 ended up being about things that were self evident. So yeah, 1785 01:48:07.119 --> 01:48:09.159 so a person who disagreed with tag or the way 1786 01:48:09.199 --> 01:48:11.920 that we approach epistemology, they could go in the direction 1787 01:48:12.159 --> 01:48:15.840 of denying that all world views are at a fundamental 1788 01:48:15.960 --> 01:48:19.039 level self referencing or recursive. But they're in an even 1789 01:48:19.159 --> 01:48:23.199 more difficult box if they do that, because now they're 1790 01:48:23.239 --> 01:48:25.199 going to have to give an account for the criterion 1791 01:48:25.319 --> 01:48:28.920 problem and the principles of self evidence, which is. 1792 01:48:28.920 --> 01:48:30.039 Going to be a nightmer. 1793 01:48:31.760 --> 01:48:34.159 Okay, thank you, I'll go back and I'll watch the 1794 01:48:34.199 --> 01:48:36.880 Trent Horn debate, and then as so, what was your. 1795 01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:39.720 Question about consciousness? Like what was it? So you just 1796 01:48:39.960 --> 01:48:41.279 you're just repeating the cards that you. 1797 01:48:41.319 --> 01:48:44.079 Mean, Well, no, it wouldn't be because I watched you 1798 01:48:44.600 --> 01:48:47.079 debate te Dump, and I remember te Dump wanted to 1799 01:48:47.159 --> 01:48:49.840 do the whole cartesian I think therefore I am. 1800 01:48:50.359 --> 01:48:53.159 But you put into question that Trent Horn did the 1801 01:48:53.199 --> 01:48:53.600 same thing. 1802 01:48:55.239 --> 01:48:57.239 I didn't watch the Trent Horn, but I remember what 1803 01:48:57.359 --> 01:48:59.439 you you brought up with Tea Dump is that hey, 1804 01:48:59.600 --> 01:49:04.479 Bertrand Russell has a critique of the coquito, which is like, 1805 01:49:04.640 --> 01:49:08.319 there's a jump to a being or an eye, but nonetheless, 1806 01:49:08.520 --> 01:49:11.920 like Corre, I do think there there there is not 1807 01:49:12.079 --> 01:49:16.479 necessarily an eye, but there is experience. And if I 1808 01:49:16.560 --> 01:49:20.239 wanted to justify that experience, can I say that it's 1809 01:49:20.279 --> 01:49:22.399 self evident or what I need to be more. 1810 01:49:22.479 --> 01:49:24.359 I'll just cut it. I'll just cut it out. Even 1811 01:49:24.399 --> 01:49:27.520 easier and even better than version of Russell's critique. If 1812 01:49:27.560 --> 01:49:29.880 you look at cons critique of the coke e toe, 1813 01:49:30.479 --> 01:49:33.520 he says, if you say I think therefore I am, 1814 01:49:34.359 --> 01:49:37.640 I am, or I exist, that's a time determination. 1815 01:49:38.359 --> 01:49:40.039 You have not proven time yet. 1816 01:49:40.479 --> 01:49:43.800 Your argument assumes the existence of time, and so therefore 1817 01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:46.479 the cogito is not self evident. By the way, the 1818 01:49:46.520 --> 01:49:49.720 coketo has been savage by philosophers ever since. They cart 1819 01:49:50.159 --> 01:49:52.439 pointing out how it relies on all kinds of things, 1820 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:56.039 not just time, and not just the false non sequit 1821 01:49:56.119 --> 01:50:00.079 or conclusions or eyes. But it also assumes sentences and 1822 01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:02.319 propositional meaning, which it hasn't demonstrated yet. 1823 01:50:04.560 --> 01:50:09.479 Interesting, So, I mean, is there not necessarily proving an 1824 01:50:09.560 --> 01:50:11.920 eye like an independent self? Is there a way to 1825 01:50:12.399 --> 01:50:17.760 epistemologically kind of demonstrate that there is conscious experience outside 1826 01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:18.680 of just saying well it's self. 1827 01:50:19.079 --> 01:50:21.640 Well, yeah, I think the strongest argument is const argument 1828 01:50:21.720 --> 01:50:25.239 that it's a transcendental category, which he calls the unity 1829 01:50:25.239 --> 01:50:27.640 of apperception, which is the self for the knower I mean, 1830 01:50:27.720 --> 01:50:30.880 in other words, for the possibility of perception, you have 1831 01:50:30.960 --> 01:50:32.720 to have a nowherre or self. But that would be 1832 01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:36.199 a transcendental argument, that would not be a Kantian self 1833 01:50:36.239 --> 01:50:37.439 evident axiom. 1834 01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:41.920 And that's the unity of ap ap procession. 1835 01:50:42.039 --> 01:50:44.000 You said ap perception. 1836 01:50:44.159 --> 01:50:48.680 That's just Kant's famous terminology for a unified experience that 1837 01:50:48.840 --> 01:50:51.760 a self or a knower is having. So basically, Kant 1838 01:50:51.920 --> 01:50:54.520 is just saying that in order to have a meaningful world, 1839 01:50:54.640 --> 01:50:58.359 or a meaningful life, or a meaningful experience, there must 1840 01:50:58.439 --> 01:51:04.880 be some unifying thing or substrate that is connecting all 1841 01:51:04.920 --> 01:51:09.079 of these disparate experiences in your daily life. And so 1842 01:51:09.399 --> 01:51:11.840 for that to be the case, it's obviously not going 1843 01:51:11.920 --> 01:51:15.520 to be proven in since experience since it's not under 1844 01:51:15.880 --> 01:51:17.319 the purview of since experience. 1845 01:51:17.920 --> 01:51:19.319 So where is it? How is it? How wo do 1846 01:51:19.439 --> 01:51:19.720 we know it? 1847 01:51:19.840 --> 01:51:21.800 It's a perfect example of one of the things that 1848 01:51:22.439 --> 01:51:26.199 calls a transcendental category, which is assumed in any act 1849 01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:29.960 of knowing. So to have a meaningful experience presupposes a 1850 01:51:30.199 --> 01:51:33.640 what he calls a transcendental unity of a perception. That's 1851 01:51:33.720 --> 01:51:37.319 just fancy word for a conscious mind of self a knowwhere. 1852 01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:41.520 Okay, cool, Yeah, I'm going to look into that. It's 1853 01:51:41.560 --> 01:51:44.680 something I've been thinking about a lot. And then after this, 1854 01:51:45.119 --> 01:51:48.760 like little chat log is closed. Can I go back 1855 01:51:48.800 --> 01:51:50.159 on Twitter and like rewind it? 1856 01:51:50.600 --> 01:51:50.760 Just so? 1857 01:51:52.600 --> 01:51:52.840 Okay? 1858 01:51:53.039 --> 01:51:53.279 Cool? 1859 01:51:53.359 --> 01:51:56.000 Well, thank you so much. Jay. I appreciate that question. 1860 01:51:56.399 --> 01:52:24.840 I appreciate those are good questions. Andre. What's up man, Colin? 1861 01:52:28.039 --> 01:52:33.159 I'm you, Hey, Jay, what's up? Man? 1862 01:52:34.039 --> 01:52:34.199 Yeah? 1863 01:52:34.279 --> 01:52:36.760 Go ahead, Hey dude, I had a quick question for you. 1864 01:52:37.079 --> 01:52:39.359 It might be fairly simple, but I was thinking about 1865 01:52:39.399 --> 01:52:42.720 this the other day. Could you elaborate on the Orthodox 1866 01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:48.000 perspective on who Melchizedek is in Genesis fourteen? 1867 01:52:48.720 --> 01:52:48.880 Is he? 1868 01:52:49.640 --> 01:52:51.960 I wrote a buff back article on it. 1869 01:52:52.880 --> 01:52:56.840 Okay, okay, cool, I'm just beating it because it's loud, 1870 01:52:57.479 --> 01:53:02.239 but I appreciate your out of the mouth of babes. Yeah, 1871 01:53:02.239 --> 01:53:06.199 Melchizedek is an actual Old Testament person. 1872 01:53:06.319 --> 01:53:10.960 He's not Jesus. He's a type of Jesus, and he 1873 01:53:11.159 --> 01:53:16.439 is spoken of as the King of Salem. 1874 01:53:16.640 --> 01:53:18.760 He's a priest king of Salem, which makes him a 1875 01:53:18.800 --> 01:53:20.880 type of Christ, being the ultimate priest king. 1876 01:53:25.000 --> 01:53:32.159 Maybe we should I'm sorry, We're trying to park and 1877 01:53:32.239 --> 01:53:34.800 it's like bad traffic here, so I keep getting distracted. 1878 01:53:36.199 --> 01:53:39.359 So yeah, he was actually the king of Jerusalem, because 1879 01:53:39.399 --> 01:53:42.319 Salem is Zion, David explains in the Psalms. 1880 01:53:43.039 --> 01:53:46.039 And so what this means is that if you believe Genesis, 1881 01:53:46.119 --> 01:53:53.239 then it's telling you that uh Salem or the city 1882 01:53:53.279 --> 01:53:56.600 of Zion, was actually the city of the righteous before 1883 01:53:56.800 --> 01:53:57.520 the Jews. 1884 01:53:57.359 --> 01:54:00.319 Existed in the sense of Abraham. So Abraham is beginning 1885 01:54:00.359 --> 01:54:03.119 of quote Judaism because he's the first to. 1886 01:54:03.199 --> 01:54:04.279 Be called in that way. 1887 01:54:06.239 --> 01:54:09.319 And God calls Abraham not because no one else in 1888 01:54:09.359 --> 01:54:12.840 the world believed in God, but rather Abraham goes to 1889 01:54:13.600 --> 01:54:19.199 the righteous gentile priest king Malchisedek and ties to him, 1890 01:54:19.920 --> 01:54:23.239 which shows the superiority of the Melchizedekian priesthood over the 1891 01:54:23.359 --> 01:54:26.760 Ironic And this is why in Hebrew seven Paul uses 1892 01:54:26.840 --> 01:54:30.359 this as a powerful argument for the superiority of Christianity, 1893 01:54:30.399 --> 01:54:33.960 which is the Melchizedekian priesthood amongst its bishops, priests. 1894 01:54:33.680 --> 01:54:34.199 And laity. 1895 01:54:35.199 --> 01:54:41.239 That priesthood supersedes and transcends the ironic priesthood because it 1896 01:54:41.359 --> 01:54:46.359 is superior, although even the ironic priesthood is also a 1897 01:54:46.520 --> 01:54:47.560 type of christ. 1898 01:54:50.039 --> 01:55:25.720 Joseph, go ahead, hey, Jack, you hear me? 1899 01:55:27.319 --> 01:55:29.000 Yeah? Hey. 1900 01:55:29.079 --> 01:55:30.960 First of all, I want to say I've been listening 1901 01:55:31.119 --> 01:55:34.359 for a couple of years, and I love just the 1902 01:55:34.439 --> 01:55:37.359 way you break things down and your movie your movie reviews, 1903 01:55:37.439 --> 01:55:40.199 all that stuff. So I love your debates everything. I 1904 01:55:40.279 --> 01:55:43.720 love everything there is. Yeah, no problem, no problem, it's 1905 01:55:43.760 --> 01:55:44.359 really good stuff. 1906 01:55:46.319 --> 01:55:47.439 Let me ask you. And I've heard you. 1907 01:55:47.680 --> 01:55:48.279 I've heard you. 1908 01:55:50.079 --> 01:55:52.520 With other people like if someone comes to you who's 1909 01:55:52.680 --> 01:55:56.000 who comes from a partisant background, which it is more 1910 01:55:56.079 --> 01:55:59.880 on solo sola scripture, and they want to debate you 1911 01:56:00.279 --> 01:56:04.079 or have a discussion with you on the Bible, you 1912 01:56:04.239 --> 01:56:07.720 kind of cut their legs off. And you I've heard 1913 01:56:07.800 --> 01:56:09.359 you do this before. I don't know if you're still 1914 01:56:09.479 --> 01:56:11.560 doing this. It's been a couple of months. As i've 1915 01:56:11.680 --> 01:56:14.279 heard you, maybe you changed your augmentation, maybe, but I've 1916 01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:17.720 heard you say things like, well, who brought the Bible? 1917 01:56:17.920 --> 01:56:20.319 Who gave you the Bible? And that's kind of your 1918 01:56:20.359 --> 01:56:22.079 way to cut the legs off. 1919 01:56:22.399 --> 01:56:24.319 So I want to know I never see using that 1920 01:56:24.479 --> 01:56:27.159 argument because it's a classic one as one of the 1921 01:56:27.199 --> 01:56:28.439 ones that helped convert me. 1922 01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:31.720 Now, okay, now, so my next question is because I 1923 01:56:31.800 --> 01:56:36.199 have I feel like I have a response to that argument. 1924 01:56:36.279 --> 01:56:37.479 So I want to see what you think I want 1925 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:39.760 to see what you're what your answer is? I guess 1926 01:56:40.199 --> 01:56:41.399 so wouldn't that be? 1927 01:56:41.880 --> 01:56:42.640 Well, no, that's fine. 1928 01:56:42.680 --> 01:56:45.319 You can always bring you know, challenges and responses like that. 1929 01:56:45.560 --> 01:56:47.800 But could you give me just a couple of minutes 1930 01:56:47.920 --> 01:56:50.479 because I meant the gas station and I had to 1931 01:56:50.600 --> 01:56:52.520 use the bathroom and I got to get a water. 1932 01:56:52.680 --> 01:56:55.920 So can you hold on for maybe a minute or two? Yeah, 1933 01:56:55.960 --> 01:59:16.840 so just give me a second? Okay, go ahead. Man, 1934 01:59:16.840 --> 01:59:21.640 I'm back on the corner all right, so I think 1935 01:59:21.800 --> 01:59:24.560 can you hear me? Yeah? 1936 01:59:24.960 --> 01:59:25.279 All right? 1937 01:59:25.920 --> 01:59:28.920 So, like I said before, when someone comes to you 1938 01:59:29.600 --> 01:59:32.079 and it kind of wants to argue the debate what 1939 01:59:32.159 --> 01:59:34.680 the Bible says before you you even get into that 1940 01:59:34.720 --> 01:59:36.560 conversation with them, and you kind of try and cut 1941 01:59:36.600 --> 01:59:38.359 their legs off from the beginning and say, well, who 1942 01:59:38.399 --> 01:59:39.079 brought you the Bible? 1943 01:59:39.319 --> 01:59:40.600 This and that X Y Z. Okay? 1944 01:59:40.640 --> 01:59:40.840 Cool? 1945 01:59:41.079 --> 01:59:44.199 And let me ask you, isn't isn't that? Isn't that 1946 01:59:44.399 --> 01:59:47.680 technically committing the fallacy of composition where you're saying, okay, 1947 01:59:47.800 --> 01:59:51.760 because the Orthodox Church brought this, that means they have 1948 01:59:51.880 --> 01:59:53.640 the truth now and everything going forward. 1949 01:59:54.079 --> 01:59:54.840 You see what I'm saying. 1950 01:59:55.239 --> 01:59:57.880 Isn't that the fallacy of composition to assume that the 1951 01:59:58.000 --> 02:00:01.760 Orthodox Church, just because they that God used them to 1952 02:00:01.840 --> 02:00:05.520 bring the truth of scripture to everybody, that now that 1953 02:00:05.720 --> 02:00:08.479 every teaching they have now is true. 1954 02:00:08.640 --> 02:00:12.439 You to say what I'm saying, Well, no, the argument 1955 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:18.359 is not that because the Canon was put together by 1956 02:00:18.439 --> 02:00:21.319 the Church that therefore everything that they believe or say 1957 02:00:21.359 --> 02:00:21.600 is true. 1958 02:00:21.600 --> 02:00:23.079 I don't. I don't even have to concede that. 1959 02:00:24.199 --> 02:00:27.159 All I have to do is show that the Protestant 1960 02:00:27.279 --> 02:00:32.079 epistemic grounds for knowing the Canon and trying to enforce 1961 02:00:32.199 --> 02:00:34.439 the Canon doesn't work for Protestantism. 1962 02:00:37.199 --> 02:00:39.600 In other words, and let me let me explain why 1963 02:00:39.680 --> 02:00:40.199 that would be the. 1964 02:00:40.239 --> 02:00:43.039 Case, because, for example, a Roman Catholic might make the 1965 02:00:43.119 --> 02:00:47.079 same argument, right, so a Protestant. A Protestant might say 1966 02:00:47.119 --> 02:00:50.000 back to me, well, okay, so maybe I admit that 1967 02:00:50.439 --> 02:00:54.479 you know the church quote unquote of history is indispensable 1968 02:00:54.600 --> 02:00:59.680 for the determination and knowledge and decision of the Canon. 1969 02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:03.920 But why Orthodoxy over Rome is ALSOSM. So no, I don't. 1970 02:01:03.920 --> 02:01:07.479 I don't think the argument that argument alone necessarily proves orthodoxy, 1971 02:01:07.640 --> 02:01:10.600 except that you have to go deeper into it and 1972 02:01:10.760 --> 02:01:14.720 point out that, well, actually, the Roman Catholic arguments is 1973 02:01:14.840 --> 02:01:17.159 not much better because they just argue that is whatever 1974 02:01:17.199 --> 02:01:20.520 the pope decided at the Council of Rome under Pope Damasis. 1975 02:01:21.039 --> 02:01:23.079 But that just assumes that papalism is true. 1976 02:01:24.119 --> 02:01:26.680 The rest of the Church had a fluctuating and varying 1977 02:01:26.800 --> 02:01:29.560 canon for centuries, even up into the Seventh Council. 1978 02:01:29.720 --> 02:01:31.680 So I don't understand. 1979 02:01:31.920 --> 02:01:34.359 So if that, if the church was papal, they weren't 1980 02:01:34.399 --> 02:01:37.079 listening to Damasis about what the canon. 1981 02:01:37.000 --> 02:01:42.079 Was, right, I see. So let's so let me ask 1982 02:01:42.119 --> 02:01:43.199 you all I all. 1983 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:43.560 I need to do. 1984 02:01:43.720 --> 02:01:46.560 All I have to do is just demonstrate that tradition 1985 02:01:47.560 --> 02:01:52.600 and a living body of people with normative authority are 1986 02:01:52.680 --> 02:01:55.800 absolutely necessary even to know what the written Word of 1987 02:01:55.840 --> 02:01:57.800 God is, and that undercos Protestancy. 1988 02:01:58.640 --> 02:02:01.520 So so okay, so this okay, So this is another 1989 02:02:01.720 --> 02:02:02.439 question happening. 1990 02:02:02.479 --> 02:02:02.720 Okay. 1991 02:02:02.800 --> 02:02:07.119 So if if that's what orthodox theology is claiming, if 1992 02:02:07.159 --> 02:02:11.800 the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is able to 1993 02:02:13.359 --> 02:02:15.479 if we're able to come to the knowledge of God 1994 02:02:16.039 --> 02:02:21.039 without the Orthodox Church proper, what doesn't that defeat that argument? 1995 02:02:21.079 --> 02:02:21.239 Though? 1996 02:02:21.439 --> 02:02:24.199 If I'm able to come to a lot of truth 1997 02:02:25.640 --> 02:02:28.159 by reading the scriptures, just me alone with the Lord 1998 02:02:28.800 --> 02:02:32.159 wouldn't that doesn't that undercut that argument then? 1999 02:02:32.680 --> 02:02:32.800 Right? 2000 02:02:32.920 --> 02:02:36.119 I say, we're saying, well, there's a difference in scripture 2001 02:02:36.199 --> 02:02:37.720 between different types of knowledge. 2002 02:02:38.359 --> 02:02:41.319 So for example, you can have rational. 2003 02:02:42.479 --> 02:02:47.640 Diological knowledge of something, or you could have factual knowledge 2004 02:02:47.680 --> 02:02:51.000 of something and not have intimate knowledge of the thing. 2005 02:02:51.119 --> 02:02:51.279 Right. 2006 02:02:51.359 --> 02:02:53.319 So like when the scriptures say that Adam and even 2007 02:02:53.359 --> 02:02:56.079 knew Adam knew his wife Eve, Right, that's a different 2008 02:02:56.119 --> 02:02:59.840 type of knowing than just having, like I know of 2009 02:03:00.079 --> 02:03:02.760 the person. So no, I would say that Protestants can 2010 02:03:03.000 --> 02:03:08.079 have a knowledge of Jesus and a knowledge of those things. 2011 02:03:09.079 --> 02:03:11.079 If God has his own ways by which he can 2012 02:03:11.159 --> 02:03:13.640 reach a Protestant, he can do that. But it's not 2013 02:03:13.880 --> 02:03:16.800 because of Protestantism. It's in spite of Protestanism, or it's 2014 02:03:16.840 --> 02:03:20.039 in spite of Catholicism, because it's ignoring the fact that 2015 02:03:20.159 --> 02:03:23.199 it's ignoring whether or not God set up an institution 2016 02:03:24.199 --> 02:03:27.439 by which he wanted people to connect to him, namely 2017 02:03:27.520 --> 02:03:27.920 the Church. 2018 02:03:28.920 --> 02:03:30.159 So let me ask you, so what did it? 2019 02:03:31.079 --> 02:03:33.319 That's a good it's a good answer, So let me 2020 02:03:33.359 --> 02:03:35.960 ask you what can I give that same answer though 2021 02:03:36.000 --> 02:03:39.399 to Orthodox because if all men are if all men 2022 02:03:39.439 --> 02:03:41.720 are fallible, right, And I know what the Orthodox teaching 2023 02:03:41.800 --> 02:03:43.800 is on, you know, on that type stuff. When they 2024 02:03:43.840 --> 02:03:47.399 agree on a certain issue whatever, you would say that's that. 2025 02:03:47.439 --> 02:03:49.680 You would say that to God speaking even though infallible 2026 02:03:49.680 --> 02:03:51.279 men are making that decision, you would say, the Holy 2027 02:03:51.319 --> 02:03:53.079 Spirit is leading the church correct. 2028 02:03:54.359 --> 02:03:57.119 Yeah, like when a council is speaking in an ecumenical 2029 02:03:57.439 --> 02:03:59.479 you know, setting with the whole mind of the church 2030 02:04:00.239 --> 02:04:03.840 on issues that are you know, universally agreed upon and 2031 02:04:03.920 --> 02:04:06.720 received eventually by the entire church. It might be unclear 2032 02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:09.199 in that generation what that is, but eventually, but over 2033 02:04:09.279 --> 02:04:11.800 time it gets accepted and we know what the mind 2034 02:04:11.840 --> 02:04:12.000 of it. 2035 02:04:12.079 --> 02:04:13.079 And we know the mind of the church. 2036 02:04:13.199 --> 02:04:18.880 But yes, that's infallible, but not the individual men, I 2037 02:04:19.000 --> 02:04:22.560 see my dutt And by the way, Protestants. Protestants already 2038 02:04:22.600 --> 02:04:26.079 admit this if they think the Bible is infallible, because 2039 02:04:26.079 --> 02:04:29.039 they think that these fallible men came together to make 2040 02:04:29.119 --> 02:04:32.359 at least one infallible decision, namely the Cannon Scripture. 2041 02:04:32.920 --> 02:04:34.199 Or you go with the RC. 2042 02:04:34.319 --> 02:04:37.000 Sproul route of saying that it's a fallible collection of 2043 02:04:37.039 --> 02:04:38.680 infallible books, which is self refuting. 2044 02:04:40.039 --> 02:04:42.960 I guess I come from an evangelical background, and I've 2045 02:04:43.039 --> 02:04:47.800 been just really reading, reading, reading scripture, reading scripture, watching 2046 02:04:47.840 --> 02:04:50.520 a lot of y'all's videos. I mean, I've watched hundreds 2047 02:04:50.560 --> 02:04:54.520 and hundreds of debates on various topics, and I personally 2048 02:04:54.600 --> 02:04:56.800 find that you are the best debater that i've heard. 2049 02:04:57.159 --> 02:05:00.720 I mean, just be honest, yeah, I personally, I mean, 2050 02:05:00.920 --> 02:05:04.159 your arguments are even if you're even if you're in 2051 02:05:04.319 --> 02:05:06.840 the wrong, I mean, you can debate your out of it, 2052 02:05:06.920 --> 02:05:09.399 like it's just that I see. 2053 02:05:09.560 --> 02:05:10.760 I'm not saying you are wrong. 2054 02:05:10.880 --> 02:05:12.840 I'm just saying that that's. 2055 02:05:12.680 --> 02:05:14.760 How good you are, that you know that you can 2056 02:05:14.800 --> 02:05:16.720 do that. So let me give you I'm gonna hold on, 2057 02:05:16.840 --> 02:05:17.159 so hold on. 2058 02:05:17.199 --> 02:05:21.960 I'm gonna I'm gonna re share a couple screenshots. 2059 02:05:23.159 --> 02:05:24.640 Hopefully I can find the other one here. 2060 02:05:25.680 --> 02:05:29.319 That give you an example from Protestant scholars of how 2061 02:05:31.920 --> 02:05:37.319 elaborate the decision of the canon was, and it gives 2062 02:05:37.359 --> 02:05:40.199 you a window into this so to where hopefully we 2063 02:05:40.239 --> 02:05:43.680 can realize that like the Canon of Scripture wasn't like 2064 02:05:43.840 --> 02:05:50.560 it's it's centuries of variations and differences and debates and disputes, 2065 02:05:51.439 --> 02:05:55.640 and that alone means that Christians were not operating on 2066 02:05:55.720 --> 02:05:59.520 the principle of solar scriptura for all those centuries. So 2067 02:05:59.680 --> 02:06:02.560 why would we be accepting a doctrine of quote sola 2068 02:06:02.600 --> 02:06:07.800 scriptura when God clearly was saving these people, you know, 2069 02:06:08.000 --> 02:06:10.439 during these times without sous. 2070 02:06:10.680 --> 02:06:11.359 Does that make sense? 2071 02:06:11.479 --> 02:06:11.600 Right? 2072 02:06:12.239 --> 02:06:13.319 No, it makes perfect sense. 2073 02:06:13.319 --> 02:06:16.039 And that and that's where what you were saying, God 2074 02:06:16.159 --> 02:06:19.119 is using Catholics in spite of themselves. God's using process 2075 02:06:19.119 --> 02:06:20.000 in spite of themselves. 2076 02:06:20.600 --> 02:06:21.199 Is it? Can I? 2077 02:06:21.319 --> 02:06:23.119 Can I not make the same critique and say that 2078 02:06:23.239 --> 02:06:27.159 God is always working Whenever God's word is shared, It's 2079 02:06:27.239 --> 02:06:29.800 never gonna return void no matter who is give. 2080 02:06:29.960 --> 02:06:30.159 Yeah. 2081 02:06:30.159 --> 02:06:33.000 But again, but but to whom much is given, much 2082 02:06:33.159 --> 02:06:35.600 is required. And so the more knowledge that you have, 2083 02:06:35.840 --> 02:06:38.199 the more culpable you are, as Jesus says. And so 2084 02:06:38.319 --> 02:06:40.920 if you do know about these things and have the 2085 02:06:41.000 --> 02:06:43.720 ability to, uh, you know, find an orthodox church. 2086 02:06:43.880 --> 02:06:46.920 Let me give you another example, like underneath, then you're 2087 02:06:46.960 --> 02:06:47.560 more liable. 2088 02:06:47.680 --> 02:06:48.079 So I just. 2089 02:06:48.199 --> 02:06:50.439 Retweeted right now. Uh. 2090 02:06:50.600 --> 02:06:54.600 This is a page from Lee McDonald's book Formation of 2091 02:06:54.600 --> 02:06:56.680 the Christian Biblical Canon, and it's the page where he 2092 02:06:56.760 --> 02:07:01.159 talks about how Revelation was not even and considered the 2093 02:07:01.279 --> 02:07:06.720 Bible in Rome until affinacious went and convinced the Bishop 2094 02:07:06.760 --> 02:07:10.920 of Rome that Revelation and Hebrews and other texts were 2095 02:07:11.039 --> 02:07:15.000 actually should be included in the cannon. So what this 2096 02:07:15.119 --> 02:07:18.399 shows us is that this is not like they're not 2097 02:07:18.600 --> 02:07:21.760 operating on sola scriptura. If they're debating what things go 2098 02:07:21.960 --> 02:07:25.319 into it, that proves they were not Protestants. They did 2099 02:07:25.359 --> 02:07:28.680 not operate on sola scriptura, and thus sol scriptura is 2100 02:07:28.760 --> 02:07:29.199 not true. 2101 02:07:29.239 --> 02:07:31.039 That's one of the key pillars of Protestants. 2102 02:07:31.239 --> 02:07:33.840 Just read this page right here from a Protestant scholar 2103 02:07:34.600 --> 02:07:38.760 on how instrumental the fallible human decisions and argumentation of 2104 02:07:38.840 --> 02:07:42.000 Afthenacious were about what books went in the Bible. 2105 02:07:42.640 --> 02:07:44.399 So, Jay, how are you sharing these pages so I 2106 02:07:44.439 --> 02:07:47.279 can see? I'm sorry, I'm driving, I have the phone. 2107 02:07:47.840 --> 02:07:49.800 I literally just so it should be the top of 2108 02:07:49.840 --> 02:07:51.920 my wall. I just sweet at the Regent. 2109 02:07:53.680 --> 02:07:55.920 By the way, I also wrote, if you scroll down 2110 02:07:56.079 --> 02:07:59.640 a little bit, I reposted my two essays on the 2111 02:07:59.720 --> 02:08:02.600 dude cannon from like ten years ago, fifteen years ago. 2112 02:08:03.640 --> 02:08:05.760 Gotcha love to that. Well, I don't want to take 2113 02:08:05.800 --> 02:08:07.279 up too with your time, man, but this, I know 2114 02:08:07.359 --> 02:08:08.079 that was a great question. 2115 02:08:09.520 --> 02:08:10.199 Appreciate it, man. 2116 02:08:10.239 --> 02:08:13.920 Just scroll down to uh Reputation of the Protestant Canon 2117 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:16.399 Part one and Reputation of the Protestant Canon Part two. 2118 02:08:17.079 --> 02:08:19.159 Maybe I'll scroll down and find him and retweeting or 2119 02:08:19.199 --> 02:08:21.399 something superhero. 2120 02:08:27.680 --> 02:08:29.039 Hey, Hello, can you hear me? 2121 02:08:29.319 --> 02:08:30.600 Stir Hey, dear dar. 2122 02:08:30.720 --> 02:08:32.560 I just want to say thank you for the opportunity 2123 02:08:32.560 --> 02:08:33.159 to be able to talk. 2124 02:08:33.720 --> 02:08:34.680 Huge supporter man. 2125 02:08:34.760 --> 02:08:37.399 I've been following for quite a while and to love 2126 02:08:37.479 --> 02:08:39.840 all your debates, especially as the ones that you do 2127 02:08:39.920 --> 02:08:43.560 with Sam Schmann got logic. But I have a I 2128 02:08:43.640 --> 02:08:47.239 grew up Protestant, actually Pentecostal, obviously Protestantism. 2129 02:08:47.800 --> 02:08:50.239 I have a like one or two questions real quick. 2130 02:08:50.399 --> 02:08:54.359 So my parents are like, you know, like I said, 2131 02:08:54.399 --> 02:08:57.199 I grew up Pentecostal. Personally, I feel like the Holy 2132 02:08:57.239 --> 02:08:58.920 spiritsmen leading me to the Orthodox Church. 2133 02:09:00.880 --> 02:09:03.640 But like a lot of that, it's just been like, 2134 02:09:03.760 --> 02:09:06.600 you know, me doing my own uh my own I 2135 02:09:06.640 --> 02:09:09.239 guess devor with Christ and like studying. 2136 02:09:08.880 --> 02:09:09.479 And stuff like that. 2137 02:09:10.199 --> 02:09:13.800 I want to ask you, uh what, like can you 2138 02:09:14.159 --> 02:09:17.840 can you give me like biblical uh I guess or 2139 02:09:17.920 --> 02:09:21.600 scripture to support like tradition and stuff like that. 2140 02:09:24.399 --> 02:09:25.560 Well, yeah, I mean there's a bunch. 2141 02:09:26.039 --> 02:09:29.800 I have an article that I wrote called the Biblical 2142 02:09:30.119 --> 02:09:33.560 case for tradition. So go to my website, Jayson Elsins 2143 02:09:33.640 --> 02:09:36.439 dot com and then just look up a Biblical case 2144 02:09:36.520 --> 02:09:39.960 for tradition and that will give you multiple texts to 2145 02:09:40.119 --> 02:09:40.600 discuss it. 2146 02:09:42.880 --> 02:09:43.000 Uh. 2147 02:09:43.039 --> 02:09:47.239 Oh, it's guys, trying to get over here. We're about 2148 02:09:47.239 --> 02:09:50.000 to get crushed by some honest so trying to several lives. 2149 02:09:51.840 --> 02:09:53.560 But yeah, I mean there's there's quite a few. I mean, 2150 02:09:53.600 --> 02:09:56.399 second Thessalonians too, where Paul talks about, you know, whether 2151 02:09:56.640 --> 02:10:01.079 keep the traditions, whether or oral or written. You know, 2152 02:10:01.600 --> 02:10:05.479 Jesus in Matthew twenty three refers to the Cathedra the 2153 02:10:05.560 --> 02:10:08.800 seat of Moses. There's nothing in the Bible about the 2154 02:10:08.880 --> 02:10:11.239 Pharisees sitting in a seat of Moses. That's tradition. 2155 02:10:13.039 --> 02:10:13.159 You know. 2156 02:10:13.239 --> 02:10:16.159 There's traditions in the New Testament cited where you know, 2157 02:10:16.359 --> 02:10:17.920 Jesus said it's better to give. 2158 02:10:17.800 --> 02:10:18.399 Than to receive. 2159 02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:21.600 There's no statement where Jesus says that in the Gospels, 2160 02:10:21.680 --> 02:10:26.039 so that's some kind of tradition. The Gospels themselves and 2161 02:10:26.239 --> 02:10:28.840 their authorship, particularly in the case of Matthew, are known 2162 02:10:28.920 --> 02:10:32.159 by tradition. So Matthew doesn't tell you that Matthew the 2163 02:10:32.279 --> 02:10:36.960 Disciple is the author of the text. So that's something 2164 02:10:37.039 --> 02:10:40.199 that is known by church tradition, and that the various 2165 02:10:40.800 --> 02:10:44.520 bishoprics and sees passing down the tradition that Matthew the 2166 02:10:44.640 --> 02:10:48.960 Disciple wrote that, and that's very important for canonicity, right. 2167 02:10:49.079 --> 02:10:51.560 So I think Protestants overlook this. 2168 02:10:52.159 --> 02:10:55.560 They think that when I say something like, you can't 2169 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:59.199 you know, know the canon without the Orthodox Church, a 2170 02:10:59.239 --> 02:11:01.560 lot of times since misunderstand that and they think that 2171 02:11:01.640 --> 02:11:04.079 the argument is just, oh, you're just saying that I 2172 02:11:04.159 --> 02:11:09.560 can't understand those books without orthodoxy, or I can't know 2173 02:11:09.720 --> 02:11:12.319 what the Bible is without an infallible interpreter. 2174 02:11:12.479 --> 02:11:14.039 No, No, that's the Roman Catholic argument. 2175 02:11:14.119 --> 02:11:16.880 I'm making a different argument, which is that you can't 2176 02:11:16.920 --> 02:11:21.800 even know the authorship tradition of the Gospels, which is 2177 02:11:22.039 --> 02:11:26.359 crucial to canonicity, without the tradition of the Church. 2178 02:11:27.319 --> 02:11:29.079 And once I saw F. F. 2179 02:11:29.159 --> 02:11:34.479 Bruce, you know, Lee McDonald, all these Protestant evangelical scholars 2180 02:11:34.600 --> 02:11:39.000 admitting the role of tradition in the Bible and its 2181 02:11:39.039 --> 02:11:42.119 formation in history, It's like, well, obviously this is not 2182 02:11:42.239 --> 02:11:43.359 the Protestant model, so. 2183 02:11:43.399 --> 02:12:10.000 This is just not true. Gary, Gary got on you man. 2184 02:12:14.920 --> 02:12:16.000 I can't hear anybody. 2185 02:12:16.960 --> 02:12:19.000 Jay, Yep, are you there? 2186 02:12:19.720 --> 02:12:19.920 Yeah? 2187 02:12:22.239 --> 02:12:26.640 Wow, Hey, I was just in the neighborhood. 2188 02:12:28.359 --> 02:12:29.039 I'll tell your mind. 2189 02:12:29.359 --> 02:12:32.039 Oh, I just thought i'd say a little something about 2190 02:12:32.079 --> 02:12:34.920 your debate on Calvinism. You know what all these religions 2191 02:12:34.960 --> 02:12:39.680 have in common? What they all believe in the higher 2192 02:12:39.800 --> 02:12:44.319 God or the atheist? Of course, there is no god. 2193 02:12:45.760 --> 02:12:46.520 That's profound, bro. 2194 02:12:47.840 --> 02:12:51.439 And it's interesting that now, Jay, I'm curious you said 2195 02:12:51.439 --> 02:12:55.239 you were even jelical. Is that how you were raised? 2196 02:12:55.920 --> 02:12:55.960 What? 2197 02:12:56.079 --> 02:12:57.000 What did you say? 2198 02:12:57.760 --> 02:12:57.800 What? 2199 02:12:58.640 --> 02:13:01.640 I can't take the smack into the your dog? No, 2200 02:13:01.760 --> 02:13:04.600 I'm orthodox, Jaron R. 2201 02:13:04.720 --> 02:13:16.199 Jason, excuse me, you'll notice that James's. 2202 02:13:14.760 --> 02:13:16.720 Hey, Ja, I want to ask what's your opinion on 2203 02:13:16.800 --> 02:13:19.479 Gregory of Nissa and his teaching of universalism? 2204 02:13:19.720 --> 02:13:20.560 Like, what would you say to that? 2205 02:13:22.039 --> 02:13:25.159 I would say he's wrong about that, and he's wrong 2206 02:13:25.199 --> 02:13:28.840 about gender being a reduced a product of the fall. 2207 02:13:30.760 --> 02:13:33.119 So yeah, many of the church fathers got many things wrong. 2208 02:13:35.319 --> 02:13:35.960 Thanks, that's it. 2209 02:13:37.640 --> 02:13:47.680 Yeah, the Universal's position is condemned by three councils. Jordan. Hello, 2210 02:13:47.960 --> 02:13:48.399 can you hear me? 2211 02:13:48.520 --> 02:13:48.680 Jay? 2212 02:13:49.319 --> 02:13:49.560 Yeah? 2213 02:13:50.279 --> 02:13:53.960 Awesome, awesome? Uh my name is Jordan. So either questions 2214 02:13:54.159 --> 02:13:57.640 or you had once sit in one of your lives 2215 02:13:57.760 --> 02:14:00.680 or debates that the this is a God is the 2216 02:14:00.760 --> 02:14:02.920 energy of God? How does that make How does that 2217 02:14:03.119 --> 02:14:06.680 make sense? If God is eternal? How is his existence 2218 02:14:07.239 --> 02:14:07.880 and energy? 2219 02:14:08.039 --> 02:14:08.199 If? 2220 02:14:08.640 --> 02:14:10.920 And correct me if I'm wrong? Isn't this the energy 2221 02:14:10.960 --> 02:14:12.880 is just the act of God, the acts or the 2222 02:14:12.960 --> 02:14:13.960 activities of God. 2223 02:14:16.560 --> 02:14:20.199 Yes, every predicate though, is an energy because they're an 2224 02:14:20.319 --> 02:14:22.560 energy that we know that's revealed to us, and that 2225 02:14:22.640 --> 02:14:27.920 comes down to us. So God's existence, God's actions, all 2226 02:14:27.960 --> 02:14:31.560 of those are in the Orthodox view energies God. 2227 02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:33.279 She's okay, So that that does make sense. 2228 02:14:34.600 --> 02:14:37.399 And yes, he exists from all eternity. His existence is 2229 02:14:37.439 --> 02:14:39.960 an eternal, energetic manifestation. 2230 02:14:41.359 --> 02:14:44.680 So I guess from like, I guess from there that 2231 02:14:44.800 --> 02:14:48.239 there's something beyond his existence that's in his essence that 2232 02:14:48.359 --> 02:14:49.560 we cannot understand. 2233 02:14:50.279 --> 02:14:53.199 But that that's yes, it's not in his essence. It 2234 02:14:53.319 --> 02:14:56.359 is the essence that is beyond existence. And that's directly 2235 02:14:56.520 --> 02:15:01.479 from Dionysius himself. Oh understood. Awesome, Thank you so much. 2236 02:15:01.520 --> 02:15:04.000 That that was that was pretty much great questions. 2237 02:15:04.199 --> 02:15:04.479 Yeah, R. 2238 02:15:04.640 --> 02:15:07.600 Rate plum Off is a debate with the Marline. I awesome, 2239 02:15:09.520 --> 02:15:11.039 I'm sorry, you can come back. I thought you were 2240 02:15:11.079 --> 02:15:12.079 done balance. 2241 02:15:16.560 --> 02:15:17.039 Can you hear me? 2242 02:15:18.199 --> 02:15:20.600 Yeah, what's up, Jordan? I was inviting you back. I 2243 02:15:20.640 --> 02:15:22.640 didn't realize you were still speaking out that you're done. 2244 02:15:22.680 --> 02:15:23.640 You can come back if you want. 2245 02:15:24.119 --> 02:15:27.800 I have like a two part question, just a shout out. 2246 02:15:27.920 --> 02:15:30.840 I love your work with Alex Jones and stuff like that, 2247 02:15:31.920 --> 02:15:35.399 Rachel as well. I see Rachel's here. Her work is nice. 2248 02:15:35.760 --> 02:15:37.960 But my first question is do you have like a 2249 02:15:38.239 --> 02:15:42.560 specific timeline base of how secularism has infiltrated America and 2250 02:15:42.640 --> 02:15:46.319 how that stems from like the UK and in the 2251 02:15:46.399 --> 02:15:49.920 big Banks, the Rothchild set up and there, and the 2252 02:15:50.079 --> 02:15:54.199 work they've been doing to like promote uh. I guess 2253 02:15:54.199 --> 02:15:56.319 you would say degeneracy, but on top of that, like 2254 02:15:56.479 --> 02:15:57.680 world government control. 2255 02:16:00.359 --> 02:16:03.920 I don't know if there's a specific timeline for secularism, 2256 02:16:04.199 --> 02:16:09.960 because you could argue that the secular realm as an 2257 02:16:10.039 --> 02:16:13.960 idea for the state and for state craft goes back 2258 02:16:14.159 --> 02:16:18.239 arguably to the Protestant Reformation and then the seeds of 2259 02:16:18.319 --> 02:16:20.960 it there and then the French Revolution. So I would 2260 02:16:20.960 --> 02:16:25.159 say that the French Revolution is probably the real source 2261 02:16:25.439 --> 02:16:29.159 of the notion of a completely secular realm. That's not 2262 02:16:29.399 --> 02:16:37.040 touched by ethics, morals, or theology outside of human legislation. 2263 02:16:37.680 --> 02:16:40.879 That seems like, I'm pretty sure it's an Enlightenment and 2264 02:16:41.000 --> 02:16:45.760 then French Revolution idea. You could track that though with 2265 02:16:45.959 --> 02:16:50.719 quickly says that the French Revolution was funded by Protestant, Swiss. 2266 02:16:50.479 --> 02:16:51.920 And Jewish banking elites. 2267 02:16:52.879 --> 02:16:56.719 And I would argue that America, as an offshoot of 2268 02:16:56.840 --> 02:17:00.360 the French Revolution already has kind of baked within it 2269 02:17:00.760 --> 02:17:04.239 a secularist tendency. But it's, like we were saying on 2270 02:17:04.280 --> 02:17:07.440 the podcast last night with High Hypocrite, my view is 2271 02:17:07.479 --> 02:17:12.200 that America kind of had kind of competing ideologies in it, 2272 02:17:12.360 --> 02:17:15.040 So it kind of had elements of Christianity and it 2273 02:17:15.120 --> 02:17:20.639 had elements of Enlightenment secular philosophy. And America was always 2274 02:17:20.719 --> 02:17:23.680 just kind of in this journey to see which road 2275 02:17:23.760 --> 02:17:24.239 it would take. 2276 02:17:24.319 --> 02:17:27.479 Would it take the path of enlightenment. 2277 02:17:27.360 --> 02:17:30.799 Uh, you know, Masonic secularism, or would it go in 2278 02:17:30.920 --> 02:17:35.920 a more Christian direction. And it didn't go into Christian 2279 02:17:35.959 --> 02:17:43.159 direction precisely because for well, for many reasons. But one 2280 02:17:43.200 --> 02:17:46.360 of the other things that's important that I think people 2281 02:17:46.479 --> 02:17:52.239 overlook is that that principle of the free reign of 2282 02:17:52.319 --> 02:17:54.559 the of the state, that it's not under the church 2283 02:17:54.680 --> 02:17:56.879 or connect to the Church, that there that there should 2284 02:17:56.879 --> 02:18:00.600 be a quote secular realm. The Roman callit Church was 2285 02:18:00.639 --> 02:18:03.920 condemning that back in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds 2286 02:18:03.920 --> 02:18:07.360 when they condemned the French Revolution. You had Orthodox writers 2287 02:18:07.399 --> 02:18:11.040 that were condemning it. When the Bolshevik Revolution happened. Probably 2288 02:18:11.120 --> 02:18:14.360 Natiev is a great one about he said that you 2289 02:18:14.440 --> 02:18:18.079 don't get an actual secular state, you actually get the 2290 02:18:18.120 --> 02:18:21.399 state of God. So if you remove the church, you 2291 02:18:21.440 --> 02:18:24.120 don't get this you know, free state, you get this 2292 02:18:24.920 --> 02:18:28.280 God state. So quite a few writers have been kind 2293 02:18:28.280 --> 02:18:30.079 of pointing that out from any centuries. 2294 02:18:30.159 --> 02:18:31.319 But I would argue that you. 2295 02:18:31.520 --> 02:18:34.000 Could just depend it on French Revolution and then the 2296 02:18:34.079 --> 02:18:37.799 influence in the West, and then the Roman Catholic Church 2297 02:18:37.920 --> 02:18:42.079 capitulating to the idea of the good of a secular 2298 02:18:42.159 --> 02:18:47.520 state at Vatican Two and their rejection of Christian nation states. 2299 02:18:48.319 --> 02:18:51.280 Got to Yeah, I've seen the argument like people have 2300 02:18:51.360 --> 02:18:53.959 made with Thomas Jefferson. They're trying to like twist his 2301 02:18:54.079 --> 02:18:57.440 words around, saying like he was trying to separate church 2302 02:18:57.559 --> 02:19:00.280 from like the country basically, but he was based only 2303 02:19:00.360 --> 02:19:02.479 trying to like actually promote the government, not trying to 2304 02:19:02.520 --> 02:19:06.600 pick a specific church to represent the government, because I mean, I. 2305 02:19:06.600 --> 02:19:10.319 Think but Jefferson does have those Enlightenment Jacobin ideas. 2306 02:19:13.040 --> 02:19:13.239 Yeah. 2307 02:19:13.399 --> 02:19:15.799 I wasn't trying to like make a case for Thomas Jefferson. 2308 02:19:15.840 --> 02:19:19.799 I was just trying to shift out that what's it called. 2309 02:19:21.840 --> 02:19:23.799 Yeah, he's a good example of somebody who. 2310 02:19:25.600 --> 02:19:28.799 Is kind of like got both of those kind of 2311 02:19:28.920 --> 02:19:32.440 tensions within him, where yeah there's some there's some quasi 2312 02:19:32.520 --> 02:19:35.559 Christian elements there, but also these Jacobin elements. And then 2313 02:19:35.719 --> 02:19:38.079 unfortunately America went in the direction of the you know, 2314 02:19:38.360 --> 02:19:39.280 the jacob inside. 2315 02:19:39.440 --> 02:19:41.680 Yeah, you could see that with like the Founding Fathers. 2316 02:19:41.760 --> 02:19:43.799 I mean, even like George Washington, they were trying to 2317 02:19:43.879 --> 02:19:45.719 go to the realm of I think deism, where they 2318 02:19:45.760 --> 02:19:47.159 were trying to say, like there's no such thing as 2319 02:19:47.200 --> 02:19:50.079 miracles and all that stuff, and they were being like 2320 02:19:50.159 --> 02:19:53.879 deists towards Jesus, and I was just I was like 2321 02:19:54.440 --> 02:19:58.200 more or less like trying to like archetypes. Is this 2322 02:19:58.319 --> 02:20:02.399 like a spiritual like thing that's going on and it 2323 02:20:02.559 --> 02:20:04.920 like does it spawn from the Catholic Church or it 2324 02:20:05.079 --> 02:20:07.280 just does just spawn from bad men? From the Catholic 2325 02:20:07.360 --> 02:20:10.120 Church that wanted to use That's. 2326 02:20:11.280 --> 02:20:14.040 Okay, that's all enlightenment for a Masonic. 2327 02:20:15.799 --> 02:20:16.399 Perfect Yeah. 2328 02:20:16.440 --> 02:20:18.360 And then my second question, I'm sorry if this is 2329 02:20:18.399 --> 02:20:20.239 too long, you can boot me if you want. But 2330 02:20:20.639 --> 02:20:22.520 I've been writing a book for the past like three 2331 02:20:22.600 --> 02:20:25.239 years on this like so called spirit of like whatever 2332 02:20:25.239 --> 02:20:28.520 we're talking about. Then this so called narcissism, like enlightenment crap, 2333 02:20:28.879 --> 02:20:31.879 and how that's all connected to like demonic forces and stuff. 2334 02:20:32.239 --> 02:20:33.879 But when I when I go down to the root 2335 02:20:33.959 --> 02:20:36.000 cause of this, it comes down to like the Garden 2336 02:20:36.079 --> 02:20:39.440 of Eden and how well you can say per se, 2337 02:20:39.520 --> 02:20:41.360 like the devil was the father of all lives, He's 2338 02:20:41.399 --> 02:20:44.479 the father of evil. But my question it will stem 2339 02:20:44.600 --> 02:20:48.440 from that being the sense of like is evil. Evil 2340 02:20:48.520 --> 02:20:50.719 is in the sense of like rejecting God. So with 2341 02:20:50.959 --> 02:20:55.040 us being the giving that choice of rejecting God, was 2342 02:20:55.120 --> 02:20:57.360 that does that mean that we were since uh, we 2343 02:20:57.479 --> 02:20:59.600 were created from nothing, and so when we were created 2344 02:20:59.639 --> 02:21:02.239 from nothing and we were given the choice of rejecting 2345 02:21:02.319 --> 02:21:04.760 the truth and love and then picking nothing to be 2346 02:21:05.159 --> 02:21:08.040 like the and that nothing is what transpires him to 2347 02:21:08.120 --> 02:21:10.319 like selfishness and like loving creatures. 2348 02:21:13.600 --> 02:21:16.000 Yeah, actually, none of the Church fathers do like and 2349 02:21:16.600 --> 02:21:22.120 the choice of vice over virtue to sort of negating 2350 02:21:22.159 --> 02:21:25.520 yourself and choosing non being. So, yeah, I think you 2351 02:21:25.559 --> 02:21:28.959 would find that in Saint Athanasius. You would find that 2352 02:21:29.079 --> 02:21:29.879 in sant Agusta. 2353 02:21:29.879 --> 02:21:33.200 And that's a that's a pretty common refrain when the 2354 02:21:33.319 --> 02:21:36.239 church fathers are kind of talking about, you know, the 2355 02:21:36.799 --> 02:21:40.719 metaphysical effects of moral evil. Jordans, do you want to 2356 02:21:40.719 --> 02:21:41.440 ask another question? 2357 02:21:42.200 --> 02:21:45.920 Yeah, I had another question, Thank you for having back on. Also, 2358 02:21:46.319 --> 02:21:49.040 so in the Letter of Especially it's too the Letter 2359 02:21:49.159 --> 02:21:54.959 of Dinitheus that was which is accepted the Council of Jerusalem, 2360 02:21:55.399 --> 02:21:58.280 like the sixteen hundreds. He speaks about in that in 2361 02:21:58.360 --> 02:22:01.280 one of the chapters where he's he uses the word transfer. 2362 02:22:01.360 --> 02:22:05.239 But I've had Protestant friends speak about how he is 2363 02:22:05.360 --> 02:22:09.840 asserting that the Orthodox use that use the exact same 2364 02:22:09.959 --> 02:22:15.200 terminology of transfer. So my question is if that's canon 2365 02:22:15.440 --> 02:22:17.680 or if that's kind of for the entire Orthodox Church? 2366 02:22:18.799 --> 02:22:20.680 Would that not this? Would that not mean that we 2367 02:22:20.799 --> 02:22:25.319 have the exact same understanding of the eucharists except from 2368 02:22:25.440 --> 02:22:27.360 the crease right. 2369 02:22:28.200 --> 02:22:33.399 So, first of all, those are Western translations of texts, 2370 02:22:34.239 --> 02:22:37.440 and it's fine if we have texts that have the 2371 02:22:37.520 --> 02:22:40.159 word transubstantiation, and if there's no I don't have him 2372 02:22:40.159 --> 02:22:40.559 even have a. 2373 02:22:40.559 --> 02:22:41.399 Problem with that word. 2374 02:22:42.760 --> 02:22:46.959 For example, John Damascus in the translations that we have 2375 02:22:47.239 --> 02:22:51.799 of on the Orthodox Faith, use the term transfibstantiation. That 2376 02:22:51.959 --> 02:22:54.959 just means a change of substance in the Eucharist through 2377 02:22:55.360 --> 02:22:56.399 the action of the Church. 2378 02:22:57.239 --> 02:23:00.200 But the Roman Catholic view is not just that. It's 2379 02:23:00.239 --> 02:23:02.040 not a minuscule view of just that. 2380 02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:06.600 Like they have a very worked out dogmatic theology of matter, form, 2381 02:23:06.639 --> 02:23:09.639 and intention for any sacrament, so for the sacrament of 2382 02:23:09.680 --> 02:23:14.079 the Eucharist and trans association their ex opera apparato doctrine 2383 02:23:14.159 --> 02:23:17.600 is part of it. Their doctrine of the words of 2384 02:23:17.680 --> 02:23:23.239 consecration is what does it. And that's odd because that 2385 02:23:23.600 --> 02:23:26.920 is separate from the epiclesis so in the Roman Goalthic position, 2386 02:23:27.120 --> 02:23:29.920 they have no notion of an epic liasis that's at 2387 02:23:29.959 --> 02:23:32.840 all relevant or necessary for the confecting of the Eucharist. 2388 02:23:33.360 --> 02:23:36.200 That's not the Orthodox view. It's foreign to the Orthodox mind. 2389 02:23:36.840 --> 02:23:39.879 And for example, that contributes in the Roman Catholic position 2390 02:23:40.159 --> 02:23:46.639 to this idea of eucharists not being communal. It can 2391 02:23:46.719 --> 02:23:49.079 be something that you can do, you know, like the 2392 02:23:49.479 --> 02:23:51.840 Roman Gathic priests can just do like the words of consecration, 2393 02:23:52.840 --> 02:23:56.559 and he can always forever. For example, if a Roman 2394 02:23:56.559 --> 02:24:00.319 Catholic priests became a Satanist, he can forever confess and 2395 02:24:00.479 --> 02:24:04.520 blaspheme the Eucharist because he never ceases to be a priest. 2396 02:24:05.360 --> 02:24:08.360 We don't think that that's superstitious. If you leave the faith, 2397 02:24:08.920 --> 02:24:11.879 you're not confecting the Eucharists. It doesn't matter how you know, 2398 02:24:12.239 --> 02:24:15.079 how much magic Roman hokey pokey you think you have. 2399 02:24:16.079 --> 02:24:19.360 And so, for example, that's another area where all of 2400 02:24:19.440 --> 02:24:25.600 the metaphysical baggage that Roman Catholicism dogmatizes about transubstantiation is 2401 02:24:25.719 --> 02:24:30.000 not necessarily contained in the word transubstantiation, which just means 2402 02:24:30.120 --> 02:24:30.920 change of substance. 2403 02:24:31.399 --> 02:24:33.760 So no believe. We believe there is a real change 2404 02:24:34.239 --> 02:24:38.399 of the bread and wine, and that change becomes body, blood, soul, 2405 02:24:38.639 --> 02:25:07.079 and uncreated energy of Christ. Jason Jason, Yes, sir. 2406 02:25:07.399 --> 02:25:08.120 Awesome. 2407 02:25:09.280 --> 02:25:11.559 Questions more on then? 2408 02:25:12.360 --> 02:25:14.719 I know if you are familiar with that, I guess 2409 02:25:14.760 --> 02:25:15.639 what's your opinion on? 2410 02:25:17.760 --> 02:25:22.120 Yeah, so this is an I appreciate, it's not it's 2411 02:25:22.159 --> 02:25:24.760 not the topic today. We're not talking to in any fry. 2412 02:25:24.879 --> 02:25:40.440 What's up? Go ahead? Hey? 2413 02:25:41.000 --> 02:25:44.479 I had a geopolitics question kind of similar to something 2414 02:25:44.559 --> 02:25:50.159 a few callers back was saying, all right, uh, something 2415 02:25:50.239 --> 02:25:53.840 you mentioned on the hypercrite stream youuron is the Rothschild 2416 02:25:53.920 --> 02:25:55.680 connection to South Africa. 2417 02:25:55.879 --> 02:25:57.879 I was wondering what that was about. 2418 02:25:59.200 --> 02:26:01.840 Yeah, so quickly as a whole section where he talks 2419 02:26:01.840 --> 02:26:03.200 about them funding the Bowler War. 2420 02:26:04.479 --> 02:26:06.879 Okay, And I had another related thing. 2421 02:26:07.600 --> 02:26:11.239 Is it anything of note to point out that Musk 2422 02:26:11.319 --> 02:26:14.040 and Peter Teel are both South African? Should we be 2423 02:26:14.120 --> 02:26:15.920 weary of South African technocrats? 2424 02:26:21.159 --> 02:26:24.280 I don't necessarily think that there's a direct connection between 2425 02:26:25.040 --> 02:26:29.200 white people in South Africa and technocracy. I wouldn't think so. 2426 02:26:29.479 --> 02:26:33.399 I mean, I don't know exactly why. I mean, Charlie's Thorne, 2427 02:26:33.440 --> 02:26:35.559 isn't she from South Africa too? I mean I don't 2428 02:26:35.559 --> 02:26:37.000 think she's a technocrat, So. 2429 02:26:38.799 --> 02:26:40.840 I don't know. I mean, I don't know the vibe 2430 02:26:40.920 --> 02:26:43.200 and the ethos of the people of South Africa. 2431 02:26:43.319 --> 02:26:45.239 Like it's like I was saying on on that stream, 2432 02:26:46.360 --> 02:26:48.600 I'm not really well studied on the history of Africa. 2433 02:26:48.840 --> 02:26:50.760 And I mean I know the A and C is bad. 2434 02:26:50.879 --> 02:26:51.680 I know about. 2435 02:26:54.680 --> 02:26:57.440 Oh, what's his face? That was in prison forever. He 2436 02:26:57.559 --> 02:27:02.799 was actually working for British intelligence oddly enough, Mandela, Yeah, 2437 02:27:02.879 --> 02:27:04.559 Mandela was actually working in British intelligent. 2438 02:27:04.600 --> 02:27:06.799 People don't know that. But so I know about some 2439 02:27:06.879 --> 02:27:08.879 of the espionage saft, but like, I don't really. 2440 02:27:08.879 --> 02:27:10.840 Know a lot of the history of the Boers other 2441 02:27:10.920 --> 02:27:12.559 than the war and all that. Other than that, the 2442 02:27:12.680 --> 02:27:14.040 roth Childs are involved in funding it. 2443 02:27:14.120 --> 02:27:19.040 According to Quickly, Yeah, that doesn't surprise That doesn't surprise 2444 02:27:19.120 --> 02:27:19.479 me at all. 2445 02:27:20.680 --> 02:27:22.360 Yeah, I was actually kind of surprised. Well, actually, I 2446 02:27:22.399 --> 02:27:24.760 wasn't surprised when you mentioned it, because it's like, well, okay, well. 2447 02:27:24.719 --> 02:27:26.959 What do they not fund exactly? 2448 02:27:28.840 --> 02:27:29.440 That was it? Though? 2449 02:27:29.479 --> 02:27:31.639 That was I think I think he mentioned it in 2450 02:27:31.799 --> 02:27:32.520 both books. 2451 02:27:32.559 --> 02:27:34.479 I think it comes up in both Tragy and Hope 2452 02:27:34.559 --> 02:27:36.879 and in Anglo American Establishment. 2453 02:27:36.920 --> 02:27:38.159 I think he mentions it in both. 2454 02:27:39.760 --> 02:27:40.799 I'll have to check that out. 2455 02:27:40.840 --> 02:27:42.719 I have the book, I just need to actually sit 2456 02:27:42.799 --> 02:27:43.319 down and read it. 2457 02:27:46.760 --> 02:27:50.280 They were also involved in the debacle over the Suez 2458 02:27:50.360 --> 02:27:52.360 Canal because Disraeli was. 2459 02:27:52.360 --> 02:27:56.600 Their operative hm hmm. Interesting yep. 2460 02:27:57.079 --> 02:28:01.399 So Disraeli's machinations over the Swiss Canal or at the 2461 02:28:01.479 --> 02:28:02.879 past of the rod Jobs. 2462 02:28:04.079 --> 02:28:12.520 Yeah, but thank you for the questioning that guys. Tony. 2463 02:28:12.600 --> 02:28:23.879 What's up Tony? Yeah? Help you, yes, sir. 2464 02:28:26.600 --> 02:28:26.799 Yeah. 2465 02:28:26.959 --> 02:28:45.760 So basically, wait, all right, we're. 2466 02:28:45.600 --> 02:28:50.879 Gonna move on open topics for Calvinism, Protestism, Catholicism. Do 2467 02:28:50.920 --> 02:28:55.559 you have politics, if you want Islam, atheism. We've still 2468 02:28:55.639 --> 02:28:59.479 got a lot of people in here, three or so so, 2469 02:29:00.079 --> 02:29:01.520 and we already did your questions. I want to give 2470 02:29:01.520 --> 02:29:03.879 some other people some opportunity to come up they want to. 2471 02:29:05.079 --> 02:29:06.719 You don't have to debate. If you want to ask 2472 02:29:06.719 --> 02:29:08.639 you a question, you can. But if you do want 2473 02:29:08.639 --> 02:29:10.639 a debate, you go to the head of line. Uh, 2474 02:29:11.239 --> 02:29:15.799 just keep it to those topics. Any atheist, any Muslim, 2475 02:29:15.840 --> 02:29:18.680 any church history, Catholicism, Protestants of Calvinism. 2476 02:29:19.360 --> 02:29:23.200 Today's your day. You can even make an argument. 2477 02:29:22.959 --> 02:29:25.399 And presentation as long as you want within reason. If 2478 02:29:25.399 --> 02:29:27.200 you want to refute me, here's your chance. I'll give 2479 02:29:27.200 --> 02:29:28.680 you the mic. You can talk and talk and talk. 2480 02:29:29.159 --> 02:29:30.600 Let me know ahead of time if that's what you'd 2481 02:29:30.639 --> 02:29:35.200 like to do. If not, it's it's. 2482 02:29:35.120 --> 02:29:35.799 All on y'all. 2483 02:29:39.559 --> 02:29:42.719 Anybody else any any how are You've got three hundre 2484 02:29:42.719 --> 02:29:47.319 people and nobody wants to talk what y'all doing. It's 2485 02:29:47.360 --> 02:29:52.879 everybody another some Calvinists in here. So we got three 2486 02:29:52.959 --> 02:29:56.559 innre people, Dames White making a big fuss today and 2487 02:29:57.200 --> 02:30:01.360 none of y'all Calvinists. Y'all just want to lurk a lark. 2488 02:30:01.239 --> 02:30:04.040 And Joseph again. What's up. 2489 02:30:06.200 --> 02:30:06.319 Now? 2490 02:30:06.319 --> 02:30:07.879 I've got to Jordan again. Nobody else comes? 2491 02:30:10.840 --> 02:30:11.639 Hey, Jack, yummy? 2492 02:30:13.280 --> 02:30:13.440 Hey? 2493 02:30:13.479 --> 02:30:13.799 All right? 2494 02:30:13.920 --> 02:30:17.680 So I had another question. So in the Orthodox Church, 2495 02:30:18.159 --> 02:30:22.680 the Eucharist is what saves you. Correct, you guys see 2496 02:30:22.719 --> 02:30:27.280 that as that that's the way of salvation. Baptism and 2497 02:30:27.319 --> 02:30:28.159 then the Eucharist. 2498 02:30:30.520 --> 02:30:32.239 Well, I mean there's a lot of things that quote 2499 02:30:32.280 --> 02:30:34.239 save you. There's not just one thing that saves you. 2500 02:30:34.360 --> 02:30:37.159 All the sacraments are involved in your salvation as well 2501 02:30:37.200 --> 02:30:38.600 as you know, the Bible and everything. 2502 02:30:38.680 --> 02:30:40.360 Okay, got because I don't know why. I just heard 2503 02:30:40.760 --> 02:30:42.799 another Orthodox guy the other day talking about how the 2504 02:30:42.840 --> 02:30:43.840 Eucharist saves you and that. 2505 02:30:46.040 --> 02:30:47.760 Yeah, but I mean we can say that without it 2506 02:30:47.920 --> 02:30:50.920 being you know, exclusive, right, So it's still true. But 2507 02:30:51.000 --> 02:30:52.920 I mean that doesn't mean it's the only thing. Matt, 2508 02:30:52.959 --> 02:30:54.719 what's up? Hey, what's going on? 2509 02:30:55.000 --> 02:30:57.840 Kind of new to the space here, So are you 2510 02:30:57.920 --> 02:31:00.399 taking a stance in any particular religion. Are you just 2511 02:31:00.840 --> 02:31:02.399 taking questions about any religion? 2512 02:31:02.600 --> 02:31:05.479 Yeah, I defend I defend Orthodox Christianity. 2513 02:31:05.680 --> 02:31:08.479 So but we can debate, you know, any challenge to 2514 02:31:08.559 --> 02:31:10.920 that position from any of the other positions. 2515 02:31:11.280 --> 02:31:14.760 Sure, okay, so Orthodox Christianity, that's interesting. 2516 02:31:15.280 --> 02:31:15.399 Uh. 2517 02:31:15.520 --> 02:31:17.680 I guess the first question would be, you know where 2518 02:31:17.719 --> 02:31:22.200 exactly does Orthodox Christianity come from? And you know who 2519 02:31:22.239 --> 02:31:26.239 gets to decide what is orthodox? What is the original 2520 02:31:26.319 --> 02:31:28.040 meaning of the religion? 2521 02:31:29.959 --> 02:31:30.520 Well, I mean the. 2522 02:31:30.719 --> 02:31:34.559 Historic churches that were set up under the Roman Empire 2523 02:31:34.680 --> 02:31:39.079 in the first second third century by the Apostles their successors, 2524 02:31:39.159 --> 02:31:44.559 who you know, were at the councils of Nicea, Conceptsinople, 2525 02:31:44.680 --> 02:31:48.040 et cetera during the first millennium. So that's what defines 2526 02:31:48.200 --> 02:31:51.760 and that's who defines the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church today, 2527 02:31:51.840 --> 02:31:54.920 that's the canonical Orthodox Catholic Church is the same church 2528 02:31:54.920 --> 02:31:55.479 as that church. 2529 02:31:56.719 --> 02:31:58.239 Okay, But I guess my point is, how do how 2530 02:31:58.280 --> 02:32:00.600 do we know exactly what they believed in and exactly 2531 02:32:00.680 --> 02:32:04.239 what they taught all these years later because we can 2532 02:32:04.399 --> 02:32:06.280 go read them where. 2533 02:32:08.559 --> 02:32:08.959 What do you mean? 2534 02:32:09.000 --> 02:32:12.479 Where you can read Ignatious Clement Cyprian, you can read 2535 02:32:13.120 --> 02:32:14.559 Athenacious Alexander. 2536 02:32:14.680 --> 02:32:17.200 I mean, these are all pre Nicean Church fathers. 2537 02:32:17.319 --> 02:32:20.680 So we all so we're basing our entire belief system 2538 02:32:20.719 --> 02:32:23.559 on five guys who we have no idea. 2539 02:32:23.799 --> 02:32:25.440 No, I. 2540 02:32:26.959 --> 02:32:29.719 Listed five people who are very famous, known throughout the 2541 02:32:29.879 --> 02:32:32.600 entire world. It's not people that nobody knows who they are. 2542 02:32:32.680 --> 02:32:36.559 They're representative bishops of their time. And then I listed 2543 02:32:36.639 --> 02:32:38.559 the Council of Nicia, which was all the bishops of 2544 02:32:38.559 --> 02:32:40.600 the Roman Empire in three twenty five. So these are 2545 02:32:40.600 --> 02:32:43.159 not nobodies, and they're not people that you can't find. 2546 02:32:43.200 --> 02:32:46.639 They're not obscure people. So, but we don't have the 2547 02:32:46.719 --> 02:32:49.319 original writings of the New Testament. 2548 02:32:49.360 --> 02:32:51.680 We have copies of copies of copies, So how can 2549 02:32:51.719 --> 02:32:55.920 we really trust any document from antiquity and from the past. 2550 02:32:56.639 --> 02:32:58.440 Do we just have to put our faith in it? 2551 02:32:58.719 --> 02:33:03.360 Then, well, the New Testament documents are more well attested 2552 02:33:03.440 --> 02:33:06.799 to than any other ancient and historical document. There's over 2553 02:33:06.920 --> 02:33:09.879 five thousand copies of the New Testament from the first 2554 02:33:09.920 --> 02:33:10.959 few centuries of the church. 2555 02:33:11.799 --> 02:33:12.559 That may be true. 2556 02:33:12.600 --> 02:33:14.840 There may be more copies of the New Testament than 2557 02:33:14.879 --> 02:33:18.000 any other book, but those other books we don't claim 2558 02:33:18.159 --> 02:33:20.920 to be written or inspired by God. 2559 02:33:21.399 --> 02:33:22.719 So I guess that's the big difference. 2560 02:33:22.799 --> 02:33:25.120 Well, that's just that was just a reputation of your 2561 02:33:25.159 --> 02:33:28.200 first assertion that it's not well attested to. It is 2562 02:33:28.280 --> 02:33:31.159 well attested to better than any other book like Plato 2563 02:33:31.319 --> 02:33:33.319 or Aristotle or anyone else from antiquity. 2564 02:33:33.760 --> 02:33:35.719 Yes, no, I'm saying that that may be true. 2565 02:33:35.840 --> 02:33:40.200 But if the Orthodox stance is that it is, again 2566 02:33:40.520 --> 02:33:43.639 depending on what you believe, it was inspired by God 2567 02:33:44.120 --> 02:33:47.879 or written by God, or however the Orthodox Church says it. 2568 02:33:48.799 --> 02:33:52.319 Then if that's the case, well we don't we don't 2569 02:33:52.399 --> 02:33:56.200 have that original text. And then if God wrote it 2570 02:33:56.360 --> 02:33:58.520 or inspired if God wrote it, or but. 2571 02:33:58.600 --> 02:34:02.040 That's no, that's your correct, and that we do not 2572 02:34:02.159 --> 02:34:05.559 have what's called autographa. We have later copies of the 2573 02:34:05.639 --> 02:34:08.440 Gospels and Paul's epistles. But that's not how I would 2574 02:34:08.479 --> 02:34:11.440 go about arguing whether the religion is true. I would 2575 02:34:11.520 --> 02:34:13.920 use a more philosophical argument, which is more of a 2576 02:34:14.920 --> 02:34:18.200 more of a worldview level argument than competing claims about 2577 02:34:18.959 --> 02:34:21.559 historicity of the text, because the religion is not ultimately 2578 02:34:21.600 --> 02:34:23.639 even based on the text, because it's the church, the. 2579 02:34:23.639 --> 02:34:25.840 Community the church that produce the text. So the church 2580 02:34:25.920 --> 02:34:27.000 is even prior to the text. 2581 02:34:27.680 --> 02:34:30.520 So does the belief in Jesus being the son of God? 2582 02:34:31.239 --> 02:34:34.600 Is that even relevant within Christianity today? Or is Christianity 2583 02:34:34.639 --> 02:34:35.719 more just about a lifestyle. 2584 02:34:36.600 --> 02:34:39.159 No, that's absolutely fundamental to Christianity. 2585 02:34:39.799 --> 02:34:42.079 Okay, but how can we know that he was actually God? 2586 02:34:44.600 --> 02:34:46.879 Well, I would use a transcendental argument to prove that 2587 02:34:47.000 --> 02:34:49.920 the Christian orthodox Christian paradigm is the only paradigm that 2588 02:34:50.000 --> 02:34:53.040 can give an account for knowledge, ethics, and metaphysics. 2589 02:34:55.520 --> 02:34:57.079 I'm not sure how you how you can prove that. 2590 02:34:57.200 --> 02:35:01.360 I mean, we have no writings from Jesus. Nobody who 2591 02:35:01.440 --> 02:35:05.239 wrote the New Testament actually knew Jesus at all. 2592 02:35:05.319 --> 02:35:06.600 I mean, that's just assuming that. 2593 02:35:07.440 --> 02:35:10.680 That's assuming that Jesus didn't a point. Apostles who are 2594 02:35:10.719 --> 02:35:14.600 able to write down what Jesus taught and Jesus did 2595 02:35:14.799 --> 02:35:17.239 inspire the Old Testament in our view, so that's not 2596 02:35:17.319 --> 02:35:18.719 even true in terms of the Old Testament. 2597 02:35:18.799 --> 02:35:20.120 That's all about Jesus as well. 2598 02:35:20.159 --> 02:35:22.959 From our perspective, what the argument I gave is called 2599 02:35:23.000 --> 02:35:26.000 a transcendental argument that only with the Christian worldview in 2600 02:35:26.120 --> 02:35:29.360 terms of its metaphysics, ethics, et cetera, can give an 2601 02:35:29.360 --> 02:35:31.559 account for things like reason and logic. 2602 02:35:34.639 --> 02:35:36.079 But yeah, possibly, I mean it depends. 2603 02:35:36.239 --> 02:35:39.959 There's obviously thousands of different religions that people believe in, 2604 02:35:40.079 --> 02:35:42.719 and you know, I don't claim to understand all of 2605 02:35:42.760 --> 02:35:45.360 them because there's so many, and I'm sure they would 2606 02:35:45.559 --> 02:35:48.959 make the same statements about their own religions. 2607 02:35:49.600 --> 02:35:51.600 Yeah, but that's a different thing from actually doing it. 2608 02:35:51.879 --> 02:35:54.559 So what's your what is your perspective, what's your worldview? 2609 02:35:57.440 --> 02:35:57.479 No? 2610 02:35:57.600 --> 02:35:59.479 My view is I'm a Christian, but I think that 2611 02:36:00.159 --> 02:36:02.000 there's a lot of I think there's a lot of issues, 2612 02:36:02.040 --> 02:36:03.639 and I think there's a lot of things that people 2613 02:36:03.799 --> 02:36:05.959 just need to be honest about in terms of the 2614 02:36:06.079 --> 02:36:09.639 text and and what it really means in terms of 2615 02:36:10.719 --> 02:36:12.879 how it relates to us all these years later, two 2616 02:36:12.879 --> 02:36:13.639 thousand years later. 2617 02:36:14.799 --> 02:36:16.399 Well, how could you be a Christian if you don't 2618 02:36:16.399 --> 02:36:17.879 believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that's 2619 02:36:17.920 --> 02:36:21.239 a necessary belief, because that's always been a necessary position 2620 02:36:21.360 --> 02:36:22.000 for Christian No. 2621 02:36:22.239 --> 02:36:24.840 I didn't state it one way or the other what 2622 02:36:25.000 --> 02:36:28.159 I believe. I was just basically stating stating a point 2623 02:36:29.280 --> 02:36:32.319 because I think a lot of people consider themselves cultural 2624 02:36:32.399 --> 02:36:35.440 Christians now where they don't necessarily believe that, but they 2625 02:36:35.520 --> 02:36:36.559 claim Christianity. 2626 02:36:37.440 --> 02:36:39.520 But it sounds like the way you were arguing was 2627 02:36:39.600 --> 02:36:41.959 as a cultural Christian or as an atheist. 2628 02:36:42.040 --> 02:36:44.399 So I'm confused about your position. No, I'm just interested. 2629 02:36:44.520 --> 02:36:50.239 I'm just interested to get your perspective and what's that. 2630 02:36:52.040 --> 02:36:54.239 You won't say your position. No, I'm not going to 2631 02:36:54.280 --> 02:36:54.879 say a position. 2632 02:36:55.840 --> 02:37:00.159 I just just just like to, you know, just like 2633 02:37:00.200 --> 02:37:02.680 to ask questions and see what people's thoughts are because 2634 02:37:02.719 --> 02:37:04.239 it is it is such an interesting topic. 2635 02:37:05.239 --> 02:37:06.639 Okay, So let me give you Let me ask you 2636 02:37:06.680 --> 02:37:08.360 a question. What how would you give an account for 2637 02:37:08.520 --> 02:37:09.399 logic and reasoning? 2638 02:37:11.000 --> 02:37:13.120 An account for logic and reasoning in terms of what 2639 02:37:13.719 --> 02:37:14.559 a specific topic? 2640 02:37:15.840 --> 02:37:18.879 What is logic and what is the faculty of reasoning? 2641 02:37:19.000 --> 02:37:20.719 And how do we have it? And how does it work? 2642 02:37:20.799 --> 02:37:21.520 And how do you know that. 2643 02:37:23.239 --> 02:37:28.479 Logic would be something that I could prove using my brain? 2644 02:37:28.639 --> 02:37:35.079 Deductive reasoning, maybe math science, the environment. You know, reasoning 2645 02:37:35.200 --> 02:37:40.399 is the ability to to dissect certain information and create 2646 02:37:40.639 --> 02:37:41.639 a specific outcome. 2647 02:37:42.559 --> 02:37:46.000 Uh, well, how does using logic prove it? So we 2648 02:37:46.200 --> 02:37:48.600 use all kinds of things that aren't necessarily the case. 2649 02:37:48.680 --> 02:37:52.280 I mean I might utilize, uh, you know, unicorns in 2650 02:37:52.360 --> 02:37:55.719 my narrative story about fiction realms. That doesn't prove that 2651 02:37:55.799 --> 02:37:59.680 unicorns exist. So what why does using a thing mean 2652 02:37:59.719 --> 02:38:00.920 that it's the case. 2653 02:38:00.840 --> 02:38:01.520 Or that it's true. 2654 02:38:04.000 --> 02:38:07.799 No, I just if you're trying to if you're trying 2655 02:38:07.840 --> 02:38:09.760 to get to the point of using logic, are you 2656 02:38:09.799 --> 02:38:11.600 trying to say, how do we use logic to prove 2657 02:38:13.079 --> 02:38:14.959 what we're talking about is true or false? 2658 02:38:16.440 --> 02:38:19.319 Well, earlier I made the argument that only Christianity can 2659 02:38:19.360 --> 02:38:22.280 give an account for those types of things, and you said, well, 2660 02:38:22.399 --> 02:38:25.399 I'm not sure about that. So I'm illustrating how I 2661 02:38:25.440 --> 02:38:29.000 would go about making that argument by asking you what 2662 02:38:29.159 --> 02:38:32.319 your account is in your worldview for logic as a 2663 02:38:32.399 --> 02:38:35.159 thing itself, and then I'm going to contrast it with 2664 02:38:35.440 --> 02:38:37.719 my perspective in my account of how logic works. 2665 02:38:38.639 --> 02:38:42.360 Well, quite frankly, I don't think there's anything logical about 2666 02:38:42.840 --> 02:38:46.639 the story. I don't think there's anything logical that really 2667 02:38:46.680 --> 02:38:47.200 makes sense. 2668 02:38:47.360 --> 02:38:51.959 Well, that's fine, but I'm making a different argument, which 2669 02:38:52.159 --> 02:38:56.479 was about the categories themselves and how we account for them. So, 2670 02:38:56.639 --> 02:38:59.920 for example, if Jesus is the universal principle of reason 2671 02:39:00.200 --> 02:39:03.799 or Logos himself, that's a way to give an account 2672 02:39:03.879 --> 02:39:07.840 for universals and logic, And I'm asking you, if you're 2673 02:39:07.840 --> 02:39:10.120 going to use logic to argue against Christianity that it's 2674 02:39:10.200 --> 02:39:12.440 not logical, what is your account for logic? 2675 02:39:12.520 --> 02:39:12.639 Then? 2676 02:39:14.719 --> 02:39:16.959 Well, I think I think that that's an assumption to 2677 02:39:17.079 --> 02:39:20.319 say that he is he is logos or logic. 2678 02:39:22.680 --> 02:39:23.479 Well, now, wait a minute. 2679 02:39:23.879 --> 02:39:26.360 The revelation, which you don't accept, even though you said 2680 02:39:26.360 --> 02:39:27.399 you're a Christian, calls. 2681 02:39:27.280 --> 02:39:28.200 Him that in John one. 2682 02:39:28.319 --> 02:39:35.879 Right, yes again, but there are you know, many issues obviously. 2683 02:39:35.760 --> 02:39:39.319 With the new text, So maybe maybe it's all false, 2684 02:39:39.479 --> 02:39:41.200 maybe all the Gospels are false. 2685 02:39:41.440 --> 02:39:44.280 How does that help you to give an account for 2686 02:39:44.360 --> 02:39:45.079 reason and logic? 2687 02:39:46.360 --> 02:39:50.520 Well, my, my, my reasoning in logic tells me that 2688 02:39:51.719 --> 02:39:54.120 out of all the people who have ever lived on 2689 02:39:54.280 --> 02:39:54.799 the planet. 2690 02:39:55.360 --> 02:39:58.079 So you're you're just appealing to You're appealing to the 2691 02:39:58.159 --> 02:40:00.079 thing I asked you to give a justification for. 2692 02:40:00.239 --> 02:40:02.920 I asked you how logic is the case and how 2693 02:40:03.000 --> 02:40:03.479 you know that? 2694 02:40:04.120 --> 02:40:06.600 And you're just saying, well, I use logic, yeah, but 2695 02:40:06.639 --> 02:40:08.040 I'm asking you for an account for that. 2696 02:40:08.959 --> 02:40:11.559 No, that the logic is from a it would be 2697 02:40:11.639 --> 02:40:15.840 coming coming from a historical perspective. So from a historical perspective, 2698 02:40:17.559 --> 02:40:22.840 then you must say then that the miracle of him 2699 02:40:22.879 --> 02:40:27.200 being born to virgin and resurrecting from the day you're listening. 2700 02:40:26.920 --> 02:40:29.799 I'm asking you about logic itself, and you keep diverting 2701 02:40:29.840 --> 02:40:33.239 away from that and restating an argument based on logic. 2702 02:40:33.680 --> 02:40:35.520 I want to know in your worldview, how there's such 2703 02:40:35.600 --> 02:40:37.959 a thing as logic and how it works if you're 2704 02:40:38.040 --> 02:40:39.600 an agnostic or whatever you are. 2705 02:40:41.040 --> 02:40:43.520 Yeah, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure proving what 2706 02:40:43.639 --> 02:40:46.799 the definition of logic is has anything to do with 2707 02:40:46.920 --> 02:40:49.280 the using logic to argue against Christianity. 2708 02:40:50.719 --> 02:40:51.719 I'm using logic. 2709 02:40:51.760 --> 02:40:56.959 I'm using logical statements that you must use those. 2710 02:40:56.799 --> 02:41:00.440 Rely on logic. And how does logic work? Well? 2711 02:41:00.520 --> 02:41:03.440 Logic works by using your brain, I would say. 2712 02:41:04.159 --> 02:41:08.040 So again, you're restating the thing that was already disproven 2713 02:41:08.079 --> 02:41:10.559 a minute ago. Using a thing or saying that it's 2714 02:41:10.600 --> 02:41:12.799 in your brain doesn't make it justified and doesn't show 2715 02:41:12.799 --> 02:41:15.239 how it works. How is that universal? Is it just 2716 02:41:15.399 --> 02:41:15.760 your brain? 2717 02:41:15.840 --> 02:41:17.040 What about my Is it in my brain too? 2718 02:41:18.239 --> 02:41:18.280 No? 2719 02:41:18.440 --> 02:41:20.200 But it's like it's like, how do you know anything 2720 02:41:20.319 --> 02:41:23.319 is real in the world? You use your brain, you know? 2721 02:41:23.440 --> 02:41:25.239 So your answer is a two quote way to ask 2722 02:41:25.319 --> 02:41:27.120 me how I know anything is real. When I ask 2723 02:41:27.200 --> 02:41:30.280 you for an account for logic and universal categories. 2724 02:41:30.479 --> 02:41:32.079 I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. 2725 02:41:32.559 --> 02:41:36.360 Then it's how do you give an account for logic 2726 02:41:36.479 --> 02:41:39.319 and it's universal, immaterial, invariant nature. 2727 02:41:41.239 --> 02:41:41.760 What does that mean? 2728 02:41:41.760 --> 02:41:43.440 You're using a lot of big words, But what does 2729 02:41:43.479 --> 02:41:46.120 that mean? I'm giving you, I'm giving you how. 2730 02:41:46.200 --> 02:41:50.040 These are standard, they're standard philosophical terms. You wanted to 2731 02:41:50.159 --> 02:41:53.000 use logic to argue against Christianity, and I'm saying, okay, fine, 2732 02:41:53.040 --> 02:41:55.680 maybe Christianity is false. I want you now to give 2733 02:41:55.680 --> 02:41:57.360 me an account for the thing that you're relying on 2734 02:41:57.479 --> 02:41:58.520 and using, namely. 2735 02:41:58.319 --> 02:42:04.440 Logic, because the claims of the New Testament and the 2736 02:42:04.520 --> 02:42:05.959 claims of the Bible. 2737 02:42:06.200 --> 02:42:09.920 Yeah again, I already let's say I can see to 2738 02:42:09.959 --> 02:42:12.639 you that the Bible is false. How does that give 2739 02:42:12.680 --> 02:42:15.479 an account for the ontological status of logic? 2740 02:42:16.680 --> 02:42:16.719 No? 2741 02:42:16.840 --> 02:42:19.200 But but I'm but I'm I'm using logic and I'm 2742 02:42:19.239 --> 02:42:20.479 getting to my point, which. 2743 02:42:20.360 --> 02:42:23.520 Is that they make which is a circle. Because I'm 2744 02:42:23.559 --> 02:42:25.959 asking you how you know logic works in the world. 2745 02:42:26.040 --> 02:42:29.200 What's your justification for logic? You're using a thing that 2746 02:42:29.319 --> 02:42:34.239 you have no justification for that was your original critique 2747 02:42:34.280 --> 02:42:36.479 of me, your original critiqus have no critique. 2748 02:42:36.639 --> 02:42:40.719 You're relying on you. Yes you did. You said, we're 2749 02:42:40.760 --> 02:42:42.879 relying on a book that we can't know. 2750 02:42:43.120 --> 02:42:45.399 Yeah, but that's not a mira because you didn't write it. 2751 02:42:45.840 --> 02:42:46.799 It's not a critique on you. 2752 02:42:48.040 --> 02:42:50.440 It's a critique of my position. And stop playing word games. 2753 02:42:51.200 --> 02:42:54.440 I'm asking you to justify your use of logic because 2754 02:42:54.440 --> 02:42:56.559 that's what you're relying on through a few Christianity. So 2755 02:42:56.680 --> 02:42:59.600 you're in you're in a terrible position. No, not really, 2756 02:43:00.440 --> 02:43:03.440 because okay, so why should we believe logic? How is it? 2757 02:43:03.520 --> 02:43:03.799 What is it? 2758 02:43:03.840 --> 02:43:04.959 Where is logic? 2759 02:43:05.079 --> 02:43:06.479 Is what you live every day? 2760 02:43:06.680 --> 02:43:09.680 And so for instance, you don't say how that is. 2761 02:43:09.760 --> 02:43:11.920 It's just what you live, Okay, I live as a degenerate. 2762 02:43:12.040 --> 02:43:12.120 Is that? 2763 02:43:12.360 --> 02:43:12.399 No? 2764 02:43:12.520 --> 02:43:15.440 No, No, there's there's certain there's certain laws of physics. Right, 2765 02:43:15.440 --> 02:43:17.479 for instance, there's not one person on this planet. 2766 02:43:17.479 --> 02:43:19.399 So the laws of logic or the laws of physics 2767 02:43:19.680 --> 02:43:23.200 in a way, you use logic. Can you observe can 2768 02:43:23.239 --> 02:43:25.239 you can you observe a law of logic under a 2769 02:43:25.399 --> 02:43:26.680 Microsoft No? 2770 02:43:26.840 --> 02:43:29.120 But you use logic in order to figure out what 2771 02:43:29.200 --> 02:43:30.159 the laws of physics are. 2772 02:43:30.440 --> 02:43:33.280 You think things, doesn't tell me that it's true or 2773 02:43:33.360 --> 02:43:34.399 that it should be used. 2774 02:43:34.520 --> 02:43:36.879 I gave the example earlier of a unicorn in a 2775 02:43:36.959 --> 02:43:38.680 story that doesn't tell me unicorns are true. 2776 02:43:38.799 --> 02:43:40.520 No, But for instance, there's not one person on this 2777 02:43:40.600 --> 02:43:44.120 planet who can walk on uh in a pool of 2778 02:43:44.280 --> 02:43:47.159 lukewarm water. Right, But in the Bible they make the 2779 02:43:47.239 --> 02:43:50.840 claim that Jesus walked on water. So that's an extraordinary event. 2780 02:43:50.959 --> 02:43:53.000 Yeah, but I already conceded. Yeah, but I concede it 2781 02:43:53.040 --> 02:43:55.239 to you. Let's say that the Bible is false. That's fine, 2782 02:43:55.520 --> 02:43:58.399 So it's all it's all made up stories. How does 2783 02:43:58.479 --> 02:44:01.680 that work for? You? Give an account for logic, the 2784 02:44:01.840 --> 02:44:04.319 very thing that you're using. I don't know that I 2785 02:44:04.440 --> 02:44:07.879 have to make that connection. Oh so you don't have 2786 02:44:08.000 --> 02:44:09.879 to give an account for the things that you rely on, 2787 02:44:10.000 --> 02:44:12.559 but I do. No, no, no, another fallacy. 2788 02:44:12.719 --> 02:44:18.760 I'm not relying on anything but logic and reasoning. 2789 02:44:19.040 --> 02:44:20.399 You and you don't have to give an account. 2790 02:44:20.440 --> 02:44:23.200 No, no what I am, because no you're not. 2791 02:44:23.479 --> 02:44:25.239 You just keep stating that it's the case and that 2792 02:44:25.319 --> 02:44:26.799 you use it. That's not giving an. 2793 02:44:26.719 --> 02:44:29.000 Account for it or explaining how it is or where 2794 02:44:29.040 --> 02:44:30.840 it is or what it is yeah, but your your 2795 02:44:30.959 --> 02:44:34.959 stance is that you're you're believing every word of that 2796 02:44:35.239 --> 02:44:38.600 book as if it is you. 2797 02:44:38.680 --> 02:44:39.639 Want me to accept. 2798 02:44:39.959 --> 02:44:45.440 You want me to accept an immaterial, invariant, unchanging, unseeable 2799 02:44:45.719 --> 02:44:48.000 thing that you can't give an account for. 2800 02:44:48.159 --> 02:44:50.040 You just say it just is. Now, I imagine if 2801 02:44:50.079 --> 02:44:52.879 I came to this debate and I said, God just is, 2802 02:44:53.520 --> 02:44:56.399 you would laugh at that. That's literally what you're doing 2803 02:44:56.520 --> 02:44:58.440 with the thing that you're using to try to argue 2804 02:44:58.479 --> 02:44:59.559 against God's existence. 2805 02:45:00.760 --> 02:45:02.760 No, that's not what I'm doing, and I'm not arguing 2806 02:45:02.760 --> 02:45:03.760 against God's existence. 2807 02:45:04.639 --> 02:45:07.040 It's not what you're doing. What you literally said about 2808 02:45:07.079 --> 02:45:09.200 ten times that logic is just what it is, and 2809 02:45:09.280 --> 02:45:10.920 it's what we do with our brain. It just is. 2810 02:45:11.920 --> 02:45:14.680 No, I mean, my argument is that it's a book 2811 02:45:14.840 --> 02:45:17.799 full of mistakes, contradictions, it's not inerranive. 2812 02:45:18.159 --> 02:45:19.040 How does that tell you? 2813 02:45:19.200 --> 02:45:19.239 What? 2814 02:45:19.559 --> 02:45:21.600 Can you not repeat? You don't even understand what my 2815 02:45:21.680 --> 02:45:25.040 argument is? You couldn't Could you restate my argument? You're 2816 02:45:25.040 --> 02:45:27.479 all over the place. I don't know exactly. I don't 2817 02:45:27.600 --> 02:45:29.879 know that. I'm not all over the place. I'm very 2818 02:45:29.920 --> 02:45:32.559 precise for the last twenty minutes exactly what my argument is. 2819 02:45:32.719 --> 02:45:34.319 How am I all over the place when I've asked you, 2820 02:45:34.399 --> 02:45:37.440 like twenty times to give a justification for what logic 2821 02:45:37.600 --> 02:45:38.319 is or how you use it. 2822 02:45:38.440 --> 02:45:40.959 Well, you're asking me to use logic and reasoning, and 2823 02:45:41.040 --> 02:45:45.319 I'm using logical examples of why there might be a problem. 2824 02:45:45.399 --> 02:45:48.879 No, I'm asking you a higher order question. I'm asking 2825 02:45:48.959 --> 02:45:51.520 you what it is? Not do you use it? What? 2826 02:45:51.879 --> 02:45:52.159 Is it? 2827 02:45:52.360 --> 02:45:53.120 What? What? What? 2828 02:45:53.319 --> 02:45:56.040 Does what your definition of logic have anything to do 2829 02:45:56.440 --> 02:45:59.840 with what we're talking about. You're trying to confuse every 2830 02:46:00.040 --> 02:46:01.159 body in here with your. 2831 02:46:02.719 --> 02:46:05.159 Laughing at you. They're laughing at you because you can't 2832 02:46:05.200 --> 02:46:07.120 give an account for the thing that you're using. No, 2833 02:46:07.280 --> 02:46:09.959 I don't think so. I don't think so. No, you're 2834 02:46:10.000 --> 02:46:12.600 not you're not actually giving I assure you. And then 2835 02:46:12.639 --> 02:46:14.440 when it goes on YouTube, everyone's gonna be laughing to it, 2836 02:46:14.520 --> 02:46:16.079 So I assure you that you will be laughed at. 2837 02:46:16.719 --> 02:46:19.239 No, I don't actually think that, because you haven't given 2838 02:46:19.280 --> 02:46:22.760 me one explanation for why. 2839 02:46:22.840 --> 02:46:25.440 You can't even restate what? Can you restate? Can you 2840 02:46:25.520 --> 02:46:26.559 restate what my argument is? 2841 02:46:26.799 --> 02:46:30.600 You can restate it. Well, you can restate it if 2842 02:46:30.639 --> 02:46:30.920 you'd like. 2843 02:46:32.799 --> 02:46:34.680 I've done it about ten times, and I want to 2844 02:46:34.760 --> 02:46:36.079 see if you're able to do it. 2845 02:46:37.840 --> 02:46:40.760 You're you're not giving an argument at all, all right, 2846 02:46:42.239 --> 02:46:45.239 you're not even giving an argument for what a sarge. 2847 02:46:45.959 --> 02:46:48.200 I gave him multiple arguments in production. 2848 02:47:04.879 --> 02:47:21.079 Stone, Stone, Stone, It's amazing, like he couldn't even grasp 2849 02:47:21.319 --> 02:47:25.959 or restate twenty times me asking him, well, what is 2850 02:47:26.040 --> 02:47:28.760 the thing that you're relying on when you call the 2851 02:47:28.840 --> 02:47:34.840 Bible illogical and Christianity irrational? I literally ask him twenty 2852 02:47:35.040 --> 02:47:36.440 I mean, all you have to do is just restate. 2853 02:47:36.520 --> 02:47:38.440 You know, you're asking me to give an account for logic. 2854 02:47:39.479 --> 02:47:42.360 It's like talking to like a five year old. They 2855 02:47:42.479 --> 02:47:43.680 just keep being totulant. 2856 02:47:44.120 --> 02:47:44.440 Stone. 2857 02:47:44.479 --> 02:47:49.120 I'm mute, man, Hello, sir, I'm sorry, I just joined 2858 02:47:49.159 --> 02:47:52.200 your space. Can then I ask your religion? 2859 02:47:52.280 --> 02:47:54.959 First? Are you Christian? 2860 02:47:59.000 --> 02:47:59.280 Okay? 2861 02:47:59.399 --> 02:47:59.719 Very good? 2862 02:48:00.079 --> 02:48:00.959 I am a Muslim? 2863 02:48:02.159 --> 02:48:04.159 Very good, very good, very good. 2864 02:48:06.680 --> 02:48:11.399 I'm Muslim, oh, very good, very yes. 2865 02:48:11.760 --> 02:48:13.120 So what is the debate today? 2866 02:48:14.799 --> 02:48:20.399 Anything relating to Islam, Christianity, Atheism, Protestantism, you name it? 2867 02:48:22.920 --> 02:48:23.239 Okay? 2868 02:48:23.479 --> 02:48:25.719 So can I start? 2869 02:48:27.159 --> 02:48:27.360 Yeah? 2870 02:48:28.840 --> 02:48:32.399 Okay, So I personally believe the Quran is the word 2871 02:48:32.479 --> 02:48:36.040 of God, the direct words of God, because it came 2872 02:48:36.760 --> 02:48:40.840 to correct what came before to Moses and to Jesus. 2873 02:48:41.920 --> 02:48:43.079 So the current tell us. 2874 02:48:43.799 --> 02:48:48.079 On why would all words be corrupted to Moses and Jesus? 2875 02:48:51.520 --> 02:48:52.479 What do you mean corrupted? 2876 02:48:53.959 --> 02:48:57.959 Well, you're arguing that he came to fix what was given. 2877 02:48:57.799 --> 02:49:02.520 Before, right, Yes, because he claimed that people changed it 2878 02:49:02.680 --> 02:49:03.840 with their own hands. 2879 02:49:04.239 --> 02:49:04.360 Uh. 2880 02:49:04.639 --> 02:49:07.360 No, it says that they changed it with their it. 2881 02:49:07.600 --> 02:49:10.280 It says they spoke against it with their tongues and 2882 02:49:10.399 --> 02:49:13.239 that they wrote false versions. It doesn't say that the 2883 02:49:13.399 --> 02:49:16.200 in ngeal or that the Torah was changed. 2884 02:49:18.239 --> 02:49:18.360 Hm. 2885 02:49:18.799 --> 02:49:23.639 It says that descriptures before was changed, and descriptures. 2886 02:49:23.040 --> 02:49:28.319 Before that in chapter and five, five forty seven and on, 2887 02:49:28.559 --> 02:49:31.079 it says that you can check what is new with 2888 02:49:31.239 --> 02:49:32.040 what came before. 2889 02:49:32.120 --> 02:49:33.840 How could you do that if it was changed? 2890 02:49:35.239 --> 02:49:39.680 Okay, so easy, we can do it even easier. So 2891 02:49:39.799 --> 02:49:42.600 the current tells us it's the direct words of God. 2892 02:49:43.280 --> 02:49:45.920 And to know that it's the word of God, you 2893 02:49:46.040 --> 02:49:46.920 have to challenge it. 2894 02:49:47.559 --> 02:49:48.760 You have to look for mistake. 2895 02:49:48.840 --> 02:49:52.319 And that's exactly what I'm doing. Because if if that 2896 02:49:52.399 --> 02:49:56.760 you can check it before? No, why would I with 2897 02:49:56.920 --> 02:49:57.799 something corrupted? 2898 02:49:57.959 --> 02:49:58.760 How could I check it? 2899 02:49:59.760 --> 02:49:59.920 Jim? 2900 02:50:00.000 --> 02:50:01.399 Please let me speak one by one? 2901 02:50:01.479 --> 02:50:01.680 Brother? 2902 02:50:01.959 --> 02:50:03.959 How can I check it if it's corrupted. 2903 02:50:04.840 --> 02:50:06.319 I'm just saying it's easy. 2904 02:50:06.399 --> 02:50:06.639 Brother. 2905 02:50:07.840 --> 02:50:10.079 If you find the Quran, say that. If you find 2906 02:50:10.120 --> 02:50:12.799 a single mistakes and contradiction into Quran. 2907 02:50:13.000 --> 02:50:14.520 No, you don't even understand what I'm saying. 2908 02:50:15.319 --> 02:50:18.920 Brother, I'm listening. 2909 02:50:19.000 --> 02:50:19.840 You'll just look. 2910 02:50:22.360 --> 02:50:26.200 The Quran says you checked the Quran according to prior revelation. 2911 02:50:28.280 --> 02:50:30.760 You just said the prior revelation is corrupted. Why would 2912 02:50:30.760 --> 02:50:32.440 I check it against the thing that's corrupted? 2913 02:50:34.159 --> 02:50:41.920 Brandon? What's up? 2914 02:50:41.959 --> 02:50:42.079 Jack? 2915 02:50:42.120 --> 02:50:42.559 Can you hear me? 2916 02:50:44.600 --> 02:50:44.760 Man? 2917 02:50:45.520 --> 02:50:47.799 First, I just want to say I am an inquirer 2918 02:50:48.239 --> 02:50:52.760 and thanks for helping me come back to the church. 2919 02:50:54.440 --> 02:50:54.600 Uh. 2920 02:50:55.600 --> 02:50:58.799 When you are critiquing Islam, and specifically the problem of 2921 02:50:58.879 --> 02:51:01.440 the one and the many, can you run that argument, 2922 02:51:02.959 --> 02:51:05.319 you know, the relation of a law to his essence 2923 02:51:05.799 --> 02:51:09.639 or to his attributes rather, can you help me pick 2924 02:51:09.680 --> 02:51:10.520 that argument apart? 2925 02:51:12.879 --> 02:51:16.680 Well, it really depends on which akida of Islam you're 2926 02:51:16.760 --> 02:51:18.040 talking to, can you mute? 2927 02:51:20.159 --> 02:51:20.360 Yeah? 2928 02:51:21.920 --> 02:51:24.000 So that argument is really going to have to be 2929 02:51:24.040 --> 02:51:27.319 tweaked depending upon whether you're talking to Ashia or whether 2930 02:51:27.360 --> 02:51:31.559 you're talking to an Ashari, or whether you're talking to 2931 02:51:32.440 --> 02:51:35.000 an AUTHORI. I mean, it really just depends because they 2932 02:51:35.079 --> 02:51:38.959 have different accounts of the attributes and the relationship of 2933 02:51:39.000 --> 02:51:42.360 the attributes, the essence and the relationship of Allah to 2934 02:51:43.760 --> 02:51:47.200 the Quran, whether it's uncreated in the sense of, I 2935 02:51:47.280 --> 02:51:49.680 mean they believe in uncreated Koran, but then whether the 2936 02:51:49.799 --> 02:51:54.399 Koran is able to be translated into the various languages, 2937 02:51:54.719 --> 02:51:58.680 and whether the words of Allah themselves to Gabriel are 2938 02:51:58.719 --> 02:51:59.879 then created or uncreated. 2939 02:52:00.079 --> 02:52:02.840 So they just move the problem, move the problem back 2940 02:52:02.920 --> 02:52:06.600 and stuff. So it really depends upon which school of Islam. 2941 02:52:06.399 --> 02:52:08.760 You're talking about when it comes to the attributes. So 2942 02:52:08.840 --> 02:52:13.159 if you're talking to like a Daniel or Jake, who 2943 02:52:13.280 --> 02:52:20.200 are Wahabi Salafi, like, their approach is going to say that, like, 2944 02:52:20.319 --> 02:52:23.760 the attributes are really distinct from Allah and that they 2945 02:52:24.360 --> 02:52:29.159 exist in and of themselves in some kind of Well, actually, 2946 02:52:29.200 --> 02:52:33.000 when doctor Branson asked Jake this, he says, do you 2947 02:52:33.120 --> 02:52:38.760 think that the attributes are self existing? Because Jake is 2948 02:52:38.799 --> 02:52:41.319 trying to say that anything that is self existing, like 2949 02:52:42.479 --> 02:52:46.440 the father, is higher in status than the son, because 2950 02:52:46.440 --> 02:52:49.159 the son, if he requires the father for his existence, 2951 02:52:50.000 --> 02:52:53.879 does not possess the attribute of self existence. And so 2952 02:52:54.799 --> 02:52:58.840 the same argument is just applicable to the attributes, But 2953 02:52:58.959 --> 02:53:02.120 it depends upon how that Muslim is going to give 2954 02:53:02.159 --> 02:53:05.840 an account of the attributes. So, for example, against doctor Khalil, 2955 02:53:06.520 --> 02:53:08.719 you couldn't make that argument the way that you would 2956 02:53:08.760 --> 02:53:11.680 make the argument against Jake, because doctor Khalil is not 2957 02:53:11.799 --> 02:53:14.760 going to speak of the attributes as really distinct the 2958 02:53:14.840 --> 02:53:17.200 way that Jake will. And so if you ask him, 2959 02:53:17.399 --> 02:53:21.399 ask Jake like, is Allah identical to his essence, I mean, 2960 02:53:21.440 --> 02:53:22.399 to his attributes? 2961 02:53:22.520 --> 02:53:22.559 No? 2962 02:53:23.280 --> 02:53:26.360 Are the attributes fully Allah and fully divine? Yes? 2963 02:53:27.000 --> 02:53:29.959 Then how do you not have a composite do it? 2964 02:53:31.440 --> 02:53:36.680 In regard to your argument for how heap doctor Kalil 2965 02:53:36.879 --> 02:53:44.680 make the same argument, the platonic argument, a new simplicity 2966 02:53:44.719 --> 02:53:48.000 position that he doesn't even have an account for actual differentiation, 2967 02:53:48.680 --> 02:53:51.760 the same way we'd argue against Ads, because ADS is 2968 02:53:51.840 --> 02:53:55.239 ultimately a neoplatonic position. So again, it just depends up 2969 02:53:55.239 --> 02:53:56.559 on which Muslims you're talking to. 2970 02:53:56.719 --> 02:54:00.520 And how their school gives an account for or Allah 2971 02:54:00.600 --> 02:54:01.399 and his attributes. 2972 02:54:04.680 --> 02:54:04.959 Got it? 2973 02:54:05.120 --> 02:54:05.600 Thanks man? 2974 02:54:06.520 --> 02:54:08.719 Yeah, So it's not really the one in the many problem. 2975 02:54:08.799 --> 02:54:12.959 It's more like the attributes. 2976 02:54:14.399 --> 02:54:18.600 In their relationship to Allah, and whether a lat really 2977 02:54:18.719 --> 02:54:22.040 is many or not? Is I mean, I guess it's 2978 02:54:22.079 --> 02:54:23.639 a kind of a one in many kind of argument, 2979 02:54:23.719 --> 02:54:27.719 but it's more so the ontological status of the attributes 2980 02:54:28.559 --> 02:54:33.520 and the majority, like the Sunnies, they believe there's an 2981 02:54:33.559 --> 02:54:36.440 uncreated Koran. You could just ask them like, okay, is 2982 02:54:36.520 --> 02:54:38.520 the uncreated Koran identical to Allah? 2983 02:54:39.520 --> 02:54:39.559 No? 2984 02:54:40.200 --> 02:54:44.479 Oh, okay, then there's two uncreated eternal things, and the 2985 02:54:44.559 --> 02:54:46.719 same with the attributes. Like that's a really easy way 2986 02:54:46.760 --> 02:54:47.079 to put it. 2987 02:54:48.159 --> 02:54:51.040 They'll go, No, it is the speech of a lot. Okay, 2988 02:54:51.079 --> 02:54:52.399 I don't care whether you call it the speech of 2989 02:54:52.440 --> 02:54:53.360 a law. Is it eternal? 2990 02:54:53.959 --> 02:54:54.120 Yes? 2991 02:54:55.120 --> 02:54:56.719 Is it allah? No, it is the speech of a 2992 02:54:56.799 --> 02:55:00.799 lat Okay. How many is that allah? Speech of a law? 2993 02:55:01.239 --> 02:55:03.399 I'm counting too, how many do you count? 2994 02:55:04.239 --> 02:55:04.280 No? 2995 02:55:04.440 --> 02:55:04.680 It is. 2996 02:55:06.280 --> 02:55:09.040 It's like they just it's like talking to five year 2997 02:55:09.040 --> 02:55:09.639 old robots. 2998 02:55:11.280 --> 02:55:20.559 They Vincent, Hey, jay, uh, I don't want to disappoint. 2999 02:55:20.559 --> 02:55:22.760 My name is actually not Vincent van Gogh, and I 3000 02:55:22.840 --> 02:55:26.000 am a woman. Are you able to hear me? 3001 02:55:26.079 --> 02:55:26.319 Okay? 3002 02:55:27.840 --> 02:55:28.000 Yes? 3003 02:55:28.360 --> 02:55:28.639 Okay? 3004 02:55:29.079 --> 02:55:31.840 Uh So I'm Catholic. My friend whose orthodox got me 3005 02:55:31.920 --> 02:55:34.799 under your videos, especially when we're discussing the the occult 3006 02:55:35.000 --> 02:55:38.920 and love your roots videos, So thanks for taking allowing 3007 02:55:39.000 --> 02:55:39.559 me to speak. 3008 02:55:40.000 --> 02:55:40.280 Thank you. 3009 02:55:40.639 --> 02:55:44.399 I have one comment in one question, uh, and I 3010 02:55:44.440 --> 02:55:46.600 think I could throw them together. The one comment is 3011 02:55:46.879 --> 02:55:49.639 I recently saw your I don't want to call it 3012 02:55:49.799 --> 02:55:54.280 a debate, but that buffoon called misfit Patriot appeared on 3013 02:55:54.360 --> 02:56:00.319 your live feed. Yeah, and you know it was embarrassing. Honestly, 3014 02:56:00.440 --> 02:56:03.280 is a Catholic like those type of people that's not 3015 02:56:03.719 --> 02:56:05.120 the people that go to Mass every week? 3016 02:56:05.200 --> 02:56:07.600 That that's not you know, I used to be a Catholic, 3017 02:56:07.600 --> 02:56:08.239 so I understand. 3018 02:56:08.559 --> 02:56:10.520 Yeah, and so that's kind of like my thread, So 3019 02:56:10.680 --> 02:56:13.239 I mean, that's really it was so embarrassing. But I 3020 02:56:13.319 --> 02:56:15.879 do see a lot of that now, especially on the 3021 02:56:16.319 --> 02:56:20.399 online stuff where people I think someone mentioned I don't 3022 02:56:20.399 --> 02:56:22.239 know the two speakers ago, the guy that said he 3023 02:56:22.360 --> 02:56:25.840 was Catholic but was arguing against Christianity. 3024 02:56:26.399 --> 02:56:27.959 I don't think he I don't even know if he 3025 02:56:28.079 --> 02:56:30.120 knows what he is or if he's just a grifter. 3026 02:56:30.280 --> 02:56:32.680 I mean, he went on Twitter immediately after the debate 3027 02:56:32.680 --> 02:56:34.920 and he's like, no, I'm not really Catholic, but I 3028 02:56:35.000 --> 02:56:36.159 was raised Catholic, So I don't think. 3029 02:56:36.440 --> 02:56:38.559 Yeah, I think think I was just a complete moron. 3030 02:56:40.440 --> 02:56:42.399 So I would love any more insight you have on that, 3031 02:56:42.479 --> 02:56:44.799 because like I couldn't get enough of it. How what 3032 02:56:44.879 --> 02:56:47.280 a moron he was. But unfortunately it's like a stain 3033 02:56:48.920 --> 02:56:52.639 on Catholics. And I was wondering if my question is, 3034 02:56:53.520 --> 02:56:56.079 and it might be too broad of a question, but 3035 02:56:56.680 --> 02:57:01.280 is there a point you can say that really was 3036 02:57:01.280 --> 02:57:04.639 a tipping point from you go into Catholicism to Orthodoxy. 3037 02:57:05.079 --> 02:57:07.959 I mean I love learning about Orthodoxy, and I love 3038 02:57:08.000 --> 02:57:12.200 listening to your shows and your podcasts or your kid. 3039 02:57:12.479 --> 02:57:14.760 Well, if you look up my old podcasts where I 3040 02:57:14.959 --> 02:57:21.239 just contrast, there's one called Vatican one refutes Catholicism, and 3041 02:57:21.360 --> 02:57:26.079 then Vatican one for his Orthodoxy, Vatican one versus Vatican two. 3042 02:57:26.479 --> 02:57:28.760 Like some of those really just lay out the things 3043 02:57:28.799 --> 02:57:31.399 that led me out of Roman Catholicism. But I mean 3044 02:57:31.559 --> 02:57:34.479 for me, that was a really long process throughout my twenties. 3045 02:57:34.559 --> 02:57:36.399 So I became Roman Catholic in twenty three when I 3046 02:57:36.479 --> 02:57:39.000 was like twenty one, two thousand and three, when I 3047 02:57:39.079 --> 02:57:42.120 was like twenty one, and then maybe maybe twenty three 3048 02:57:42.200 --> 02:57:45.200 somewhere in there, and then for most of my twenties 3049 02:57:45.280 --> 02:57:49.120 I was like, you know, hardcore Tomas Catholic tradcat going 3050 02:57:49.159 --> 02:57:54.239 to Latin Mass, and then the Vatican two issues were 3051 02:57:54.280 --> 02:57:56.040 a big thing, and then I just kept you know, 3052 02:57:56.120 --> 02:57:59.920 going deeper and deeper into reading Danzinger, reading the papal documents, 3053 02:58:00.079 --> 02:58:04.760 reading the encyclicals. And I left Rome I would say 3054 02:58:04.799 --> 02:58:09.000 about two thousand and seven or eight. I was still 3055 02:58:09.040 --> 02:58:12.920 iffy about you know, I wasn't ready to go to Orthodoxy. 3056 02:58:13.120 --> 02:58:15.600 I wasn't ready. I didn't want to go back to Protestanism. 3057 02:58:16.200 --> 02:58:17.799 So I was just kind of in a limbo state 3058 02:58:17.879 --> 02:58:21.879 for a while for a few years. But it was 3059 02:58:21.959 --> 02:58:25.360 a process of you know, reading and reading and reading 3060 02:58:25.399 --> 02:58:29.719 and also seeing Rome on the ground and you know, seeing. 3061 02:58:29.680 --> 02:58:35.600 Like in person, like just constant gay priests, gay orders. 3062 02:58:35.719 --> 02:58:36.920 The Dominicans are all gay. 3063 02:58:37.239 --> 02:58:39.319 I mean, it's just like when you see it on 3064 02:58:39.399 --> 02:58:41.120 the ground, it's way worse like going to you go 3065 02:58:41.239 --> 02:58:44.520 to hip hop masses, you go to like clown masses, 3066 02:58:44.760 --> 02:58:46.920 and you see it's just like you got to see 3067 02:58:46.920 --> 02:58:49.040 it on the ground. Sometimes people don't believe until they 3068 02:58:49.079 --> 02:58:52.440 go see it and then and then you know, contrast 3069 02:58:52.600 --> 02:58:54.799 just just the worship I think was a huge one too, 3070 02:58:54.920 --> 02:58:59.600 because you know, Francis has been persecuting the Latin Mass. 3071 02:59:00.479 --> 02:59:03.120 It was even under rat singer. It was so hard 3072 02:59:03.200 --> 02:59:05.200 to find Latin masses to go to, so I was 3073 02:59:05.239 --> 02:59:09.559 going to the SSPX Mass and then you go to 3074 02:59:09.959 --> 02:59:12.280 an Orthodox Church service and it's like, well, this is 3075 02:59:12.399 --> 02:59:17.440 like reveren, Why can't the Roman Calloy Church even maintain 3076 02:59:17.559 --> 02:59:19.879 their liturgy? If they're like, if this is the true church, 3077 02:59:20.360 --> 02:59:23.239 they should at least be able to maintain just the 3078 02:59:23.319 --> 02:59:24.440 basic divine liturgy. 3079 02:59:25.239 --> 02:59:25.479 Yeah. 3080 02:59:25.719 --> 02:59:27.600 Yeah, I go to Latin Mass on Sundays, but then 3081 02:59:27.680 --> 02:59:30.360 during the week I perish near me. It's a very 3082 02:59:30.440 --> 02:59:33.159 good parish. I somewhat insulated. I understand what you're saying 3083 02:59:33.159 --> 02:59:35.120 about getting on the ground and like the gay priests, 3084 02:59:35.879 --> 02:59:37.440 and I guess like when I get online, I see 3085 02:59:37.479 --> 02:59:38.440 some of that stuff and it just. 3086 02:59:40.399 --> 02:59:41.399 Makes my stomach turn. 3087 02:59:41.520 --> 02:59:42.840 So I really appreciate you. 3088 02:59:43.079 --> 02:59:45.959 Well, I don't mean to say that like the decision 3089 02:59:46.159 --> 02:59:48.719 was based on like who has more gay priests, because 3090 02:59:48.760 --> 02:59:52.120 there's corrupt, evil priests and bishops and the Orthodox Church too. 3091 02:59:53.159 --> 02:59:55.760 Now for me, the decision was literally all based on 3092 02:59:55.879 --> 02:59:59.079 the theology and the argumentation. I'm just saying that when 3093 02:59:59.159 --> 03:00:01.280 I was roaming cats, like, I really was, you know, 3094 03:00:01.440 --> 03:00:05.559 committed to it. But the on the ground world of 3095 03:00:05.639 --> 03:00:08.920 Roman Catholicism really eventually beats you down and you get 3096 03:00:08.959 --> 03:00:12.760 really dejected about it, and that was part of what 3097 03:00:13.040 --> 03:00:17.120 got me looking into other options. But I'm not saying that, 3098 03:00:17.200 --> 03:00:20.000 oh I converted because there's gaybris No, that's not my argument. 3099 03:00:20.040 --> 03:00:21.799 Yeah, no, that's interesting. I mean I'm committed. 3100 03:00:21.840 --> 03:00:22.040 I'm not. 3101 03:00:22.159 --> 03:00:24.479 I don't have plans to good Orthodoxy, though it seems 3102 03:00:24.559 --> 03:00:31.319 that very cool right now, but I just like learning about, 3103 03:00:31.719 --> 03:00:34.920 you know, Orthodoxy, all religions. 3104 03:00:35.000 --> 03:00:39.280 But uh, well, look, I would say here's three easy contradictions. 3105 03:00:39.319 --> 03:00:41.799 And I mean Roman Catholicism is premise that on the 3106 03:00:42.079 --> 03:00:45.399 idea that dogma can't contradict. And I can give you 3107 03:00:45.559 --> 03:00:51.239 three explicit dogmatic contradictions. Number one, unam Sanctum teaches that 3108 03:00:52.079 --> 03:00:55.440 you have to submit to and believe in the temporal 3109 03:00:55.520 --> 03:00:58.600 supremacy of the Roman bishops, which means that he is 3110 03:00:58.680 --> 03:01:02.840 also a world rule and can call standing armies. 3111 03:01:02.559 --> 03:01:03.120 Et cetera. 3112 03:01:03.760 --> 03:01:08.399 That belief was necessary up until Vatican two, and it's 3113 03:01:08.479 --> 03:01:10.760 no longer a necessary, but that to me is a 3114 03:01:10.840 --> 03:01:16.399 dogmatic contradiction. Number two, Francis has changed the Roman Cathoity 3115 03:01:16.479 --> 03:01:19.639 churches teaching on the death penalty, not just to get 3116 03:01:19.680 --> 03:01:21.280 away with it, but he actually says that it is 3117 03:01:21.479 --> 03:01:24.799 contrary to the Gospel. Yeah, the Roman catholt Church saw 3118 03:01:24.920 --> 03:01:29.959 the death penalty for you know, countless from the beginning 3119 03:01:30.159 --> 03:01:30.680 pretty much. 3120 03:01:31.399 --> 03:01:34.600 So those are contradictions. I would also argue that. 3121 03:01:37.639 --> 03:01:41.040 Even within Catholicism, like the giving of a blessing to 3122 03:01:43.079 --> 03:01:46.360 gay couples, and I know that it's not gay marriage, 3123 03:01:46.879 --> 03:01:50.559 but the blessing of a gay couple is the opposite 3124 03:01:50.719 --> 03:01:54.680 directive that the Holy Office gave in two thousand and 3125 03:01:54.799 --> 03:01:55.799 three under rat Singer. 3126 03:01:55.959 --> 03:01:57.360 So those are direct contradictions. 3127 03:01:58.239 --> 03:02:00.280 Yeah, I do get that. 3128 03:02:00.440 --> 03:02:03.879 And I have some friends who are actually way more 3129 03:02:03.920 --> 03:02:06.280 traditional than I am, and they basically just say, like, look, 3130 03:02:06.719 --> 03:02:11.079 Vatican two is invalid, and also Francis is the anti pope, 3131 03:02:11.120 --> 03:02:12.760 so we're just gonna wait it out, like we are 3132 03:02:12.799 --> 03:02:13.959 the ones your church. 3133 03:02:14.719 --> 03:02:17.280 Yeah, I have a talk on that. It's called a 3134 03:02:17.479 --> 03:02:19.360 set of a contism for his orthodoxy. 3135 03:02:19.520 --> 03:02:21.879 So I look it up. I would say, watch watch 3136 03:02:21.959 --> 03:02:23.799 that talk because I deal with that whole. 3137 03:02:24.120 --> 03:02:24.479 Look it up. 3138 03:02:24.479 --> 03:02:25.360 Thank you so much for your time. 3139 03:02:31.600 --> 03:02:44.879 Yes, thank you. Great questions, Doctor Thomas Raspberry Gotta I'm mute. 3140 03:02:48.840 --> 03:02:53.319 You had a quick question in regards to the previous 3141 03:02:53.440 --> 03:02:59.399 caller and trying to figure out what the temporal nature 3142 03:02:59.440 --> 03:03:02.479 of the paper is. He so claimed was at the 3143 03:03:02.520 --> 03:03:05.799 beginning of the first near the beginning of the first millennia, 3144 03:03:06.639 --> 03:03:10.440 I know that the papal states were a thing, and 3145 03:03:10.559 --> 03:03:14.840 I was wondering maybe if that statement from that particular 3146 03:03:14.920 --> 03:03:19.000 pope was in regards to his control over the papal 3147 03:03:19.079 --> 03:03:23.760 states and his getting the Holy Roman Emperor in line. 3148 03:03:23.799 --> 03:03:25.879 And you know how he says, as the. 3149 03:03:26.559 --> 03:03:28.760 Moon reflects the light of the sun, so too, there's 3150 03:03:28.799 --> 03:03:36.719 a Holy Roman Emperor reflect you know, the divine light, Yeah, 3151 03:03:39.040 --> 03:03:41.719 shown on the pope or something like that. I don't 3152 03:03:41.760 --> 03:03:45.120 know exactly what the words are, but it's something similar 3153 03:03:45.200 --> 03:03:48.200 to that. So is that particular to the time when 3154 03:03:48.440 --> 03:03:49.719 the papal states existed? 3155 03:03:52.680 --> 03:03:55.239 Yeah, I mean the papal states that have an existence 3156 03:03:55.319 --> 03:03:58.600 prior to when I'm signed them. But the issue is 3157 03:03:58.680 --> 03:04:03.079 not you know, and the Church, you know, have large 3158 03:04:03.159 --> 03:04:05.680 elements of property in this kind of stuff. If you 3159 03:04:05.719 --> 03:04:08.200 look at the Canons of Chalcidon, it's forbidden in the 3160 03:04:08.239 --> 03:04:13.360 canons for a cleric to have a civil role, and 3161 03:04:13.520 --> 03:04:19.319 so this is a fissure of a separation between Church 3162 03:04:19.360 --> 03:04:22.319 and state, even in the situation of Symphonia. And the 3163 03:04:22.440 --> 03:04:25.760 problem is that if you read the Papadocus Mayandorf book 3164 03:04:26.159 --> 03:04:28.760 on the rise of the papacy from one thousand to 3165 03:04:28.879 --> 03:04:32.159 fourteen hundred in the West, they argue that there's a 3166 03:04:32.159 --> 03:04:34.360 whole bunch of things that pop off in under the 3167 03:04:34.399 --> 03:04:37.639 Gregorian reforms that are distinct even beyond. 3168 03:04:37.479 --> 03:04:38.600 The notion of a papal state. 3169 03:04:38.639 --> 03:04:42.559 It's one of those, for example, is the military monastic 3170 03:04:42.760 --> 03:04:44.040 orders that fight for the pope. 3171 03:04:44.559 --> 03:04:45.879 That's something that's completely new. 3172 03:04:45.959 --> 03:04:51.479 It never existed, and they rightly point out that clearly 3173 03:04:51.680 --> 03:04:54.559 there was a geopolitical motivation for the papacy to do 3174 03:04:54.639 --> 03:04:57.360 this under the Gregoing reforms and to approve those orders. Now, 3175 03:04:57.600 --> 03:04:59.559 I understand that there they would argue, well, this is 3176 03:04:59.600 --> 03:05:01.200 part of the to Holy Land and all that. 3177 03:05:01.879 --> 03:05:02.079 Yeah. 3178 03:05:02.319 --> 03:05:04.440 But the problem is that even if there might have 3179 03:05:04.520 --> 03:05:08.840 been extenuating circumstances, it goes against canon law in terms 3180 03:05:08.879 --> 03:05:12.120 of what monastics are allowed to do. Monastics do not 3181 03:05:12.319 --> 03:05:17.000 engage in fighting in battle. And then beyond that, the 3182 03:05:17.440 --> 03:05:22.159 Dictatus pope document is the first explicit extreme statement about 3183 03:05:22.239 --> 03:05:25.000 the pope being a world ruler. No, this is not 3184 03:05:25.319 --> 03:05:28.639 just large scale property or even defense of his property. 3185 03:05:28.799 --> 03:05:33.639 This is the papacy being able to call standing armies, 3186 03:05:34.440 --> 03:05:39.040 go to war and excommunicate princes that don't fight in 3187 03:05:39.120 --> 03:05:43.079 his defense. That's all totally foreign to the first millennium. 3188 03:05:43.719 --> 03:05:45.680 And it was also backed up, by the way, with 3189 03:05:45.840 --> 03:05:47.680 some of the forgeries, so you had the usage of 3190 03:05:47.719 --> 03:05:49.639 the donation of Constantine to back up some of this. 3191 03:05:50.200 --> 03:05:53.200 And if you read when I'm Sanctum, the argumentation is, actually, 3192 03:05:53.639 --> 03:05:56.000 it's not even so much about like warfare and battles. 3193 03:05:56.000 --> 03:05:57.040 It's really absurd. 3194 03:05:57.120 --> 03:06:00.600 It's like it just cites Jeremiah about I have set 3195 03:06:00.680 --> 03:06:04.600 you above all kingdoms to read out and to destroy, 3196 03:06:05.360 --> 03:06:08.440 and the papacy says, that's about us, because we're the 3197 03:06:08.559 --> 03:06:10.479 head of the world, and if we're the head of 3198 03:06:10.520 --> 03:06:12.879 the church, and if the church is superior to the rulers, 3199 03:06:13.200 --> 03:06:15.520 then we're the head of all rulers, right, So it's 3200 03:06:15.600 --> 03:06:20.559 just preposterous, you know, logic there. And the argument is 3201 03:06:20.600 --> 03:06:23.600 that even if you could justify that like historically, and 3202 03:06:23.719 --> 03:06:25.840 even if we gave the papacy an excuse for all that, 3203 03:06:26.719 --> 03:06:29.440 Vatican too has like discarded that. So that means there's 3204 03:06:29.479 --> 03:06:31.559 a change in dogma. If you read it when I'm sunktum. 3205 03:06:32.239 --> 03:06:35.440 It's not just saying no salvationals the church. It's saying 3206 03:06:35.600 --> 03:06:37.239 you must also believe. 3207 03:06:36.920 --> 03:06:39.360 In the temporal supremacy of the Roman Bishop to be saved. 3208 03:06:41.079 --> 03:06:42.559 Right, all right, thanks so much. 3209 03:06:42.559 --> 03:06:48.239 I appreciate it. Thank you, doctor Thomas. Appreciate your your 3210 03:06:48.520 --> 03:06:49.959 presence and your good question. 3211 03:06:51.479 --> 03:08:13.920 Emmanuel, Adrian Emanual whoever can connect, I guess nobody can connect. Balance. 3212 03:08:13.959 --> 03:08:15.479 We've already done your questions. Is not trying to be 3213 03:08:15.559 --> 03:08:16.719 rude to you, but we want to move on to 3214 03:08:16.799 --> 03:08:17.440 some other people. 3215 03:08:20.479 --> 03:08:25.479 We've got a long drive, so I mean, do a 3216 03:08:25.520 --> 03:08:27.200 little bit more. We've been going for a good while. 3217 03:08:28.200 --> 03:08:34.719 Any questions, challenges, discussions regarding Calvinism, processes with Catholicism, Islam, atheism. 3218 03:08:35.479 --> 03:08:37.280 I mean, if you're a Muslim coming up, know that 3219 03:08:37.680 --> 03:08:41.479 we already kind of are aware of the arguments, so 3220 03:08:41.559 --> 03:08:43.760 you don't have to walk us through saying we know 3221 03:08:43.920 --> 03:08:45.879 that you think the Koran is the word of all lot. 3222 03:08:45.920 --> 03:08:48.079 We know all that. And I'm going to ask you 3223 03:08:48.159 --> 03:08:51.000 about the Islamic dilemma, so know that ahead of time. 3224 03:08:51.440 --> 03:08:54.000 And if you can't restate what the Islamic dilemma is 3225 03:08:55.680 --> 03:08:56.600 just don't even come up. 3226 03:08:56.600 --> 03:08:58.239 It's not worth anybody's time because we don't want to 3227 03:08:58.239 --> 03:09:01.319 go through this whole process of like explaining it to 3228 03:09:01.440 --> 03:09:03.079 you and then you don't know what it is, and 3229 03:09:03.159 --> 03:09:05.440 then you just keep repeating what the Koran. 3230 03:09:05.200 --> 03:09:10.239 Says, which is not a debate. If you can restate 3231 03:09:10.760 --> 03:09:13.479 the Islamic dilemma, even if you disagree with it, if 3232 03:09:13.559 --> 03:09:17.520 you have the capabilities to restate it, I will welcome you. 3233 03:09:17.639 --> 03:09:21.600 Up to the microphone. You can come and be first. 3234 03:09:23.639 --> 03:09:26.479 We still got what well, we got more people than earlier. 3235 03:09:26.520 --> 03:09:28.639 We got over three hundred, three hundred and thirteen people. 3236 03:09:30.719 --> 03:09:34.120 And that atheist guy was something else. And it's always 3237 03:09:34.200 --> 03:09:37.200 like the thing that it's annoying too when people won't 3238 03:09:37.239 --> 03:09:38.680 debate their actual position. 3239 03:09:39.079 --> 03:09:41.520 That's annoying when they're like, oh, well, I'm not going 3240 03:09:41.600 --> 03:09:44.040 to say what my position is, but I'm going to 3241 03:09:44.120 --> 03:09:46.239 argue in bad faith from all these other positions. 3242 03:09:46.719 --> 03:09:50.600 Well, I mean, it is a debate room, but kind 3243 03:09:50.639 --> 03:09:52.360 of the assumption here is that you're going to debate 3244 03:09:52.399 --> 03:09:55.360 the actual position you have, not pretending to have a 3245 03:09:55.399 --> 03:09:58.680 bunch of positions. And atheists love to do that too, 3246 03:09:58.719 --> 03:10:01.799 because they can like jump between positions. When they get refuted, 3247 03:10:01.840 --> 03:10:03.879 they can just switch to another position that they don't 3248 03:10:03.879 --> 03:10:04.239 actually have. 3249 03:10:05.120 --> 03:10:07.479 So it's a kind of a classic bad faith tactic. 3250 03:10:07.840 --> 03:10:09.200 By the way, Muslims are doing this too. 3251 03:10:09.280 --> 03:10:12.399 When we were on the God Logic extreme debating, all 3252 03:10:12.399 --> 03:10:15.159 the Muslims, a bunch of them were doing this too, 3253 03:10:15.200 --> 03:10:18.520 where they act like they're Orthodoxic inquirers or they're interested 3254 03:10:18.559 --> 03:10:20.879 in some position, or they'll say they're atheists, and then 3255 03:10:20.920 --> 03:10:23.639 they start arguing Islam just to get in there to 3256 03:10:23.760 --> 03:10:26.760 argue their stupid positions. It's like, it's just a weird 3257 03:10:26.959 --> 03:10:30.319 thing to want to bad faith argue a position that 3258 03:10:30.399 --> 03:10:34.319 you don't have. But it's actually a tactic because it's 3259 03:10:34.360 --> 03:10:38.000 a way to just change your position mid debate. Well, 3260 03:10:38.040 --> 03:10:40.079 I don't know actually believe that. And that's exactly what 3261 03:10:40.200 --> 03:10:42.319 that guy did. You notice how snaky that was, right? 3262 03:10:42.399 --> 03:10:45.639 He was like he was all cordial and it's like, oh, well, 3263 03:10:45.680 --> 03:10:50.799 I'm a Christian, but is the Son of God really 3264 03:10:50.920 --> 03:10:53.040 essential to Christianity. It's like, well, wait a minute, I 3265 03:10:53.079 --> 03:10:54.840 thought you were a Christian, so you were an atheist 3266 03:10:54.959 --> 03:10:58.440 like ten minutes ago. Well, I am a Christian, but 3267 03:10:58.799 --> 03:11:01.680 I'm not going to argue much field, Well you sound 3268 03:11:01.719 --> 03:11:04.920 like an atheist, so like what so see, this is 3269 03:11:04.959 --> 03:11:07.319 a this is a thing where we were kind of 3270 03:11:07.319 --> 03:11:10.159 ahead of the game when you know, people were saying 3271 03:11:10.159 --> 03:11:12.639 we were being quote mean and really heavy handed on 3272 03:11:12.760 --> 03:11:13.200 this stuff. 3273 03:11:14.200 --> 03:11:17.159 Like it doesn't take long to figure out when people 3274 03:11:17.159 --> 03:11:20.559 are not really being a good faith debater and to 3275 03:11:20.719 --> 03:11:23.319 god logics credit Like he spotted that Muslim dude within 3276 03:11:23.440 --> 03:11:26.040 like ten seconds, He's like, no, he's not. 3277 03:11:27.040 --> 03:11:32.000 He's not really atheists. He's a Muslim. So this kind 3278 03:11:32.000 --> 03:11:33.360 of stuff doesn't really work. 3279 03:11:36.079 --> 03:11:37.000 At least not with us. 3280 03:11:37.079 --> 03:11:39.079 I think we can like sniff this stuff out within 3281 03:11:39.319 --> 03:11:42.639 no time. But if you have an actual position that 3282 03:11:42.680 --> 03:11:45.200 you'd like to discuss or defend, you're. 3283 03:11:45.079 --> 03:11:48.440 Welcome to come up. I will bring you up. We've 3284 03:11:48.479 --> 03:11:50.440 got over three hundred people in here, and that's great. 3285 03:11:50.920 --> 03:11:52.799 These spaces used to get a hundred. Now they get 3286 03:11:53.600 --> 03:11:55.319 sometimes four hundred, five hundred. 3287 03:11:55.399 --> 03:11:59.159 So anybody want to discuss Calvin hasn't protestism with alicism, 3288 03:11:59.280 --> 03:12:00.239 Islam atheist them. 3289 03:12:01.520 --> 03:12:03.959 We have a shout out to Father Degan and Ias. 3290 03:12:04.520 --> 03:12:08.760 We have a beautiful Tristanna, our favorite trans individual on 3291 03:12:08.840 --> 03:12:13.079 the chat. Some people think that she's the Antichrist. I 3292 03:12:13.159 --> 03:12:17.200 think that's a little overboard. A lot of vegans are beginning. 3293 03:12:16.879 --> 03:12:17.239 To think this. 3294 03:12:18.399 --> 03:12:20.799 Uh, there's not really hard evidence for this, but I 3295 03:12:20.879 --> 03:12:24.120 support her. Even if she is the Antichrist, she would 3296 03:12:24.120 --> 03:12:28.399 be the first female trans antichrist. Trans transit transity christ 3297 03:12:29.120 --> 03:12:32.239 and Shout out to Rachel's in the chat. Shout out 3298 03:12:32.280 --> 03:12:36.959 to slowboly white Board. Shout out to Jubb, Shout out 3299 03:12:37.040 --> 03:12:42.959 to Melkite, Shout out to not Chase Haggard, who I'm 3300 03:12:43.000 --> 03:12:46.440 sure is all is literally not Chase Haggard. Shout out 3301 03:12:46.440 --> 03:12:49.959 to Vaklav, Shout out to ac. We've got a bunch 3302 03:12:50.000 --> 03:12:52.719 of our friends in the chat. What's up, Father Degan, 3303 03:12:52.719 --> 03:12:53.680 and I as what's on your mind? 3304 03:13:04.799 --> 03:13:15.319 You got to unmute. I'm mute, dude, FDA, you gotta 3305 03:13:15.360 --> 03:13:16.159 ut if you want to talk. 3306 03:13:16.360 --> 03:13:19.239 Oh, I didn't really want to talk, but just your 3307 03:13:19.680 --> 03:13:21.200 ummute dude, I'm unmuted. 3308 03:13:21.479 --> 03:13:23.319 Oh, I thought you wanted to You requested to speak, 3309 03:13:23.360 --> 03:13:26.399 You requested to speak to not speak? Yeah, that you 3310 03:13:26.520 --> 03:13:26.840 got me. 3311 03:13:29.280 --> 03:13:34.079 Yeah, I'm just waiting for some good questions and debates. 3312 03:13:34.319 --> 03:13:36.799 And uh, I'm sorry I missed the atheist guy. 3313 03:13:36.840 --> 03:13:40.760 I don't know what his argument was, well, uh, it's 3314 03:13:40.799 --> 03:13:43.840 actually something you pointed out before, where you know a 3315 03:13:43.920 --> 03:13:47.200 lot of atheists will kind of like not say their 3316 03:13:47.239 --> 03:13:49.760 position so that they can hop into a bunch of 3317 03:13:49.799 --> 03:13:50.600 different positions. 3318 03:13:51.399 --> 03:13:53.680 Oh interesting, have you noticed that? 3319 03:13:57.239 --> 03:13:59.600 Well don't they actually even say to you, I don't 3320 03:13:59.639 --> 03:14:05.399 have a position? Atheism is not a position? Yeah, pretty 3321 03:14:05.479 --> 03:14:07.959 much the onus is on you. Remember that was even 3322 03:14:10.120 --> 03:14:14.079 uh Stein tried that move on Bonnson in the famous debate. 3323 03:14:16.360 --> 03:14:17.120 Oh yeah, he did. 3324 03:14:17.159 --> 03:14:19.840 You're right, Yeah, which is fine. 3325 03:14:20.000 --> 03:14:20.479 I mean. 3326 03:14:22.520 --> 03:14:24.920 That you could say atheism itself is not position, but 3327 03:14:25.120 --> 03:14:28.760 it entails positions. So let's look at those, like, you're 3328 03:14:29.719 --> 03:14:34.200 not positionless, So what's what's your position? 3329 03:14:35.639 --> 03:14:37.959 Do you think that goes along with assumed neutrality like 3330 03:14:38.040 --> 03:14:40.000 they actually think, no, I'm just actually super neutral. 3331 03:14:40.040 --> 03:14:40.959 I have no position, no. 3332 03:14:41.000 --> 03:14:43.680 Com Yeah, well I think Stein pointed that out too, 3333 03:14:44.319 --> 03:14:48.040 because he made a bunch of positions about what qualifies 3334 03:14:48.079 --> 03:14:51.959 as evidence and proof and stuff like that, and uh. 3335 03:14:53.600 --> 03:14:53.639 That. 3336 03:14:55.200 --> 03:15:00.159 Boson's response was, yeah, well it depends the way that 3337 03:15:00.239 --> 03:15:04.639 you verify history versus you know, that was the crackers 3338 03:15:04.680 --> 03:15:07.280 in the pantry fallacy. But you obviously do have pre 3339 03:15:07.440 --> 03:15:15.360 commitments and certainly your atheist worldview will inform that. I mean, 3340 03:15:15.399 --> 03:15:19.479 that's crazy to Actually it's it's not crazy, it's disingenuous. 3341 03:15:19.520 --> 03:15:22.680 Actually, well the. 3342 03:15:22.680 --> 03:15:26.079 Guy, that guy was pretty pretty honest about being disingenuous. Yeah, 3343 03:15:26.120 --> 03:15:27.600 I'm not going to debate my position. I'm going to 3344 03:15:27.639 --> 03:15:30.079 debate a bunch of other posiness. No, we don't really 3345 03:15:30.120 --> 03:15:30.319 do that. 3346 03:15:32.680 --> 03:15:37.040 Yeah, I mean if you take debate class, you know 3347 03:15:37.520 --> 03:15:40.639 they'll make you, as part of your course, argue the 3348 03:15:40.719 --> 03:15:43.000 positions that you don't hold and so that you learned 3349 03:15:43.000 --> 03:15:45.600 to Steelman. Well, that's not really what we're doing here. 3350 03:15:51.440 --> 03:15:53.120 Do you ever do you ever do that with students 3351 03:15:53.159 --> 03:15:56.200 where you tell them like, Okay, you're gonna argue for 3352 03:15:56.239 --> 03:15:58.440 the sake of argument a position that you don't hold, 3353 03:15:59.239 --> 03:16:01.399 so that you learn you know their position and how 3354 03:16:01.440 --> 03:16:02.079 to steal man. 3355 03:16:02.040 --> 03:16:04.600 It sort of. 3356 03:16:04.760 --> 03:16:09.600 I mean, we don't really have that much time in 3357 03:16:09.959 --> 03:16:13.600 the semester to actually do like debates itself. But what 3358 03:16:13.760 --> 03:16:16.520 I what I do try to do when we steal 3359 03:16:16.639 --> 03:16:21.159 man an argument, we're just going over a queus and 3360 03:16:21.239 --> 03:16:24.120 it's harder for the first year like freshmen, they're just 3361 03:16:24.559 --> 03:16:27.959 they're just blank stares, like they don't know how I 3362 03:16:28.040 --> 03:16:30.879 think a lot of it's they're insecure, they're afraid to 3363 03:16:30.920 --> 03:16:32.680 say something. But what I try to get them do 3364 03:16:32.920 --> 03:16:36.120 is like, well, what would you say, Like, let's what 3365 03:16:36.159 --> 03:16:41.840 would a counter argument be to this? And how would 3366 03:16:41.879 --> 03:16:43.840 you respond to I try to give them to do that. 3367 03:16:44.559 --> 03:16:46.680 It's like you don't actually have to believe that, but 3368 03:16:46.879 --> 03:16:50.319 you should be thinking like, well, if I was the opponent, 3369 03:16:50.520 --> 03:16:51.200 I would say this. 3370 03:16:51.600 --> 03:16:52.959 And occasionally. 3371 03:16:53.920 --> 03:16:57.959 Students like freshmens will get you know, upperclassmen get that 3372 03:16:58.360 --> 03:17:01.399 real well, they've taken philosophy classes and stuff, and so 3373 03:17:01.600 --> 03:17:05.079 they'll try to formulate counterposition and then a response to 3374 03:17:05.200 --> 03:17:07.840 that and stuff like that. But I mean, that's philosophy. 3375 03:17:07.840 --> 03:17:11.719 Even when you're writing papers, right, you try to think like, okay, 3376 03:17:11.760 --> 03:17:14.360 we would be the best objection to this, and how 3377 03:17:14.399 --> 03:17:18.479 would I formulate that? Yeah, it's just dialectics. 3378 03:17:22.440 --> 03:17:25.680 Yeah, this is a but it's a really difficult skill 3379 03:17:26.000 --> 03:17:30.159 or thing for a lot of people. A lot of people, 3380 03:17:30.959 --> 03:17:33.040 I guess just maybe out of laziness, like they don't 3381 03:17:33.040 --> 03:17:35.920 want to actually deal with the other positions best argument. 3382 03:17:36.000 --> 03:17:39.239 It's just a lot easier to straw man it or 3383 03:17:39.319 --> 03:17:41.000 you know, make it sound like it's something that is 3384 03:17:41.079 --> 03:17:44.479 not to knock down, you know, a fake thing, farm boy? 3385 03:17:44.559 --> 03:17:50.159 What's that meant? I'm you. 3386 03:17:54.639 --> 03:18:01.239 About the word theosis and where that word from, as 3387 03:18:01.319 --> 03:18:04.879 in the etymology, how did the Greek and Eastern Church 3388 03:18:05.719 --> 03:18:10.200 arrive at that word versus our English word sanctification. Curious 3389 03:18:10.840 --> 03:18:14.920 about that, particularly if that word's in the Greek New 3390 03:18:15.000 --> 03:18:17.600 Testament and where it ultimately comes from. 3391 03:18:17.799 --> 03:18:18.040 Thank you. 3392 03:18:20.799 --> 03:18:22.159 It's a good question. Off the top of my head. 3393 03:18:22.159 --> 03:18:24.840 I'm not sure if the New Testament ever uses the 3394 03:18:24.920 --> 03:18:27.719 word theosis. It does talk about us partaking of the 3395 03:18:27.760 --> 03:18:31.239 divine nature. It talks about us being like God. We 3396 03:18:31.319 --> 03:18:34.399 will be transformed into His into the likeness of his 3397 03:18:34.559 --> 03:18:35.479 glorious body. 3398 03:18:36.920 --> 03:18:40.959 You know, we will partake of his glory. Paul talks about. 3399 03:18:40.760 --> 03:18:44.079 Dunamus and inner gaya, But I don't know if Tom 3400 03:18:44.120 --> 03:18:46.040 had a p if the I mean, you can just look. 3401 03:18:46.360 --> 03:18:47.840 You could google it really quick and see if the 3402 03:18:47.920 --> 03:18:49.600 New Testament ever uses the word. 3403 03:18:49.639 --> 03:18:51.799 I don't think it does. Says that it does not, Yeah, 3404 03:18:52.239 --> 03:18:52.719 just checked it. 3405 03:18:53.959 --> 03:18:59.000 Yeah, I'm not sure which Greek father would have been 3406 03:18:59.079 --> 03:19:02.840 the first to use it, maybe Theophilis or Athanacious something 3407 03:19:02.920 --> 03:19:06.200 like that. But it just became a term that sort 3408 03:19:06.239 --> 03:19:11.680 of encapsulates the participation in divine life that we undergo. 3409 03:19:13.600 --> 03:19:19.040 And I mean that, you know, you'll find the terminology 3410 03:19:19.079 --> 03:19:22.559 of sanctification use sanctified, made holy set apart. 3411 03:19:23.920 --> 03:19:28.639 In the patriistic writings. But I think probably by the 3412 03:19:30.479 --> 03:19:30.799 by the. 3413 03:19:33.719 --> 03:19:38.760 Controversies relating to first Ephesis and the nature of Christ 3414 03:19:38.840 --> 03:19:43.280 at Ephesus and the Eucharist, because Cyril uses the Euchrist. 3415 03:19:42.959 --> 03:19:45.879 As an argument against Nestorians, and then. 3416 03:19:45.879 --> 03:19:48.959 By the time of the Sixth Council, when Maximus is 3417 03:19:49.040 --> 03:19:53.120 debating about the deification of christ human body, the Sixth 3418 03:19:53.200 --> 03:19:56.959 Council uses that terminology where they say that in the incarnation, 3419 03:19:57.440 --> 03:20:00.079 the human nature of Christ is fully deified. That in 3420 03:20:00.200 --> 03:20:03.440 the six Council, so it becomes kind of concilier dogma 3421 03:20:05.200 --> 03:20:09.920 by that time, although it's pretty pretty normal even prior 3422 03:20:10.000 --> 03:20:10.559 to that time. 3423 03:20:10.840 --> 03:20:13.319 So, but I don't know the I'm not a you know, 3424 03:20:13.319 --> 03:20:14.520 a linguist, so I'm not sure. 3425 03:20:14.639 --> 03:20:18.479 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, apotheosis was used, and 3426 03:20:18.920 --> 03:20:25.879 obviously we distinguish theosis from that. But in Greek antiquity, 3427 03:20:26.319 --> 03:20:32.639 obviously they had a concept becoming divine. It just was 3428 03:20:32.719 --> 03:20:41.040 heretical because they didn't have the energies doctrine, so obviously 3429 03:20:43.239 --> 03:20:48.000 I'm imagining the use of it derives, you know, from 3430 03:20:48.079 --> 03:20:50.840 antiquity and the concept from apathiosis. 3431 03:20:55.760 --> 03:21:00.399 Okay, thank you, And you said apathiosis that word is 3432 03:21:00.680 --> 03:21:02.280 in the Greek New Testament. 3433 03:21:02.799 --> 03:21:03.479 No it's not. 3434 03:21:04.360 --> 03:21:05.719 Okay, I'm misunderstand you. 3435 03:21:05.840 --> 03:21:11.280 Sorry, it's in antiquity. I'm trying to remember how far back, 3436 03:21:12.799 --> 03:21:16.000 if maybe even in Homer. 3437 03:21:16.639 --> 03:21:17.399 I'll have to look. 3438 03:21:19.000 --> 03:21:21.479 But it's not a foreign concept, is what I'm saying. 3439 03:21:21.559 --> 03:21:21.840 And so. 3440 03:21:23.319 --> 03:21:27.360 Just like when Saint Paul on the arapegis speaking to 3441 03:21:27.399 --> 03:21:31.399 the philosophers, uses their language and says, well, you know, 3442 03:21:32.479 --> 03:21:35.479 this is whom your poets even speak of, and whom 3443 03:21:35.520 --> 03:21:38.680 we live and have our being, I imagine the fathers 3444 03:21:39.000 --> 03:21:43.200 use those kinds of concepts, like say Gregory theologian says, 3445 03:21:43.280 --> 03:21:47.200 when speaking to philosophers, speak philosophy, they may win the 3446 03:21:47.239 --> 03:21:50.559 philosopher over. So they probably what I'm saying is the 3447 03:21:50.639 --> 03:21:54.559 concept obviously existed back then, and so they pulled from 3448 03:21:54.639 --> 03:22:01.959 that and showed the Christian version. But like Jay said, 3449 03:22:02.000 --> 03:22:06.520 this is probably not fully articulat until you get kind 3450 03:22:06.559 --> 03:22:08.959 of more of these controversies. When you get to the 3451 03:22:09.440 --> 03:22:14.280 power might sends, and you might have it in Saint Basil. 3452 03:22:14.600 --> 03:22:16.520 I'm gonna have to look, like Jay said, I don't 3453 03:22:16.559 --> 03:22:17.399 know off the top of my head. 3454 03:22:18.840 --> 03:22:24.840 I got you could I ask a follow up question, Yeah, sure, 3455 03:22:24.879 --> 03:22:25.200 what's up? 3456 03:22:27.440 --> 03:22:27.719 Do you. 3457 03:22:29.639 --> 03:22:33.639 Do you feel like the English word sanctification misses some 3458 03:22:34.719 --> 03:22:38.760 meaning or doctrine understanding or anything like that when dealing 3459 03:22:38.840 --> 03:22:41.399 with the Orthodox. 3460 03:22:43.959 --> 03:22:46.719 Well, the problem really is just that it's kind of 3461 03:22:46.719 --> 03:22:49.159 like the word transferstantiation. When we were discussing that in 3462 03:22:49.280 --> 03:22:51.680 it earlier. You might not have heard that. But it's 3463 03:22:51.719 --> 03:22:53.760 not a problem with the word itself. It's just that, 3464 03:22:54.280 --> 03:22:54.840 like if the. 3465 03:22:56.319 --> 03:22:59.280 Translation of John Demouscus that we use from the Catholics 3466 03:22:59.600 --> 03:23:02.639 uses the word transubstantiation, it's not a problem. It just 3467 03:23:02.719 --> 03:23:08.760 doesn't require us to bring along all the metaphysical baggage 3468 03:23:08.840 --> 03:23:12.479 of the Scholastics and exoperate operato and all that other stuff, 3469 03:23:13.079 --> 03:23:15.079 because the word just means a change of substance, which 3470 03:23:15.159 --> 03:23:19.399 is fine in the same way like sanctification usually has 3471 03:23:19.440 --> 03:23:23.639 this Protestant connotation where Protestants when they hear that word 3472 03:23:24.639 --> 03:23:27.760 just like penal or just like substitution, like they import 3473 03:23:27.879 --> 03:23:30.040 all this theological baggage to it. That they have and 3474 03:23:30.079 --> 03:23:35.079 they hear sanctification, they think, oh, that's the distinguished from 3475 03:23:35.399 --> 03:23:39.079 glorification and distinguished from justification. These are the three stages 3476 03:23:39.120 --> 03:23:41.959 that are clearly distinguished in scripture. When they're not right, 3477 03:23:42.040 --> 03:23:46.840 so Protestants will read into that the Protestant doctrine of sanctification, 3478 03:23:47.040 --> 03:23:51.200 which is strictly distinct from justification and glorification, and that 3479 03:23:51.280 --> 03:23:57.479 would immediately be in contradiction to like Orthodox ideas because Paul, 3480 03:23:57.559 --> 03:24:00.719 for example, says the glorification is something that we can 3481 03:24:00.799 --> 03:24:03.239 have even in this life. When he talks about Second 3482 03:24:03.239 --> 03:24:06.000 Prithian's three that we see Christ face to face now 3483 03:24:06.680 --> 03:24:09.079 and we see that saying glory and we pass from 3484 03:24:09.120 --> 03:24:12.360 glory to glory. Well, I'm sorry, that means that we 3485 03:24:12.479 --> 03:24:16.280 have glorification now and that violates the uh, you know, 3486 03:24:16.600 --> 03:24:21.079 ordo salutis of the Reformation tradition. So the problem is 3487 03:24:21.159 --> 03:24:24.440 not the words. It's just sometimes people bring a lot 3488 03:24:24.520 --> 03:24:27.440 of baggage, and I mean it's kind of inescapable. I 3489 03:24:27.520 --> 03:24:30.479 think everybody kind of brings an interpretation to the text. 3490 03:24:31.079 --> 03:24:34.680 It's inescapable. But it's more so a question of you know, 3491 03:24:34.840 --> 03:24:36.879 to put it in the words of Jordan Peterson. Depends 3492 03:24:36.920 --> 03:24:40.239 on much to me, Right, it's not the word transpnentiation 3493 03:24:40.440 --> 03:24:42.840 or the word sanctification, the word justification. 3494 03:24:43.840 --> 03:24:45.079 It depends on what you mean. 3495 03:24:45.239 --> 03:24:49.600 Yeah, I think that there's probably some rhetorical wisdom when 3496 03:24:49.719 --> 03:24:52.799 to use it, because, like you said, a lot of 3497 03:24:52.840 --> 03:24:56.840 these words they're contaminated from other heresies and stuff like that. 3498 03:24:57.399 --> 03:25:02.399 So your audience may think that you're meaning something different 3499 03:25:03.360 --> 03:25:05.719 when you use the word or oh, they're like us, 3500 03:25:05.959 --> 03:25:08.959 they believe Mormons are famous. 3501 03:25:08.719 --> 03:25:09.159 For doing this. 3502 03:25:10.719 --> 03:25:13.360 Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, well we believe the same thing. 3503 03:25:13.520 --> 03:25:18.479 I mean, they they know you don't mean the same thing, 3504 03:25:18.559 --> 03:25:20.559 and you know that they don't. And so you're playing 3505 03:25:20.600 --> 03:25:25.840 this stupid game for an hour, like and so sometimes 3506 03:25:25.920 --> 03:25:29.440 you just got to choose, like, Okay, depending on my audience, 3507 03:25:29.520 --> 03:25:31.840 what sort of words would I use? But yeah, the 3508 03:25:31.920 --> 03:25:33.440 word itself is not problematic. 3509 03:25:35.120 --> 03:25:36.040 Okay, thank you guys. 3510 03:25:39.959 --> 03:25:43.280 Hey, Jay, I just wanted to piggyback off of something 3511 03:25:43.319 --> 03:25:45.079 that you said earlier. I'm Orthodox now, but I grew 3512 03:25:45.159 --> 03:25:48.680 up Protestant. And it's interesting when you talked about earlier 3513 03:25:49.040 --> 03:25:52.760 about steelmanning somebody's position, I was immediately reminded of not 3514 03:25:52.879 --> 03:25:55.239 too long ago when all those performed Protestants were coming 3515 03:25:55.280 --> 03:25:58.079 out and they were so adamant that Orthodoxy was wrong. 3516 03:25:58.200 --> 03:26:00.600 But when you saw what they thought, we believe they 3517 03:26:00.600 --> 03:26:04.719 didn't even know the basics of Orthodox theology. And that's 3518 03:26:04.719 --> 03:26:07.319 what I was reminded of today when James White was 3519 03:26:08.159 --> 03:26:10.520 sending his tweets saying that he didn't want to debate 3520 03:26:10.559 --> 03:26:13.000 you r whatever. In some guy in his comments was like, oh, 3521 03:26:13.079 --> 03:26:16.079 Jay didn't show the fruit to the spirit, And I'm like, okay, anyway, 3522 03:26:16.120 --> 03:26:17.959 that I just thought it was really funny, just how 3523 03:26:18.559 --> 03:26:19.239 the irony in that. 3524 03:26:19.399 --> 03:26:22.159 Yeah, they'll they'll debate all day about tone policing, they'll 3525 03:26:22.200 --> 03:26:25.079 debate about debating and not actually debate the topics. It's 3526 03:26:25.120 --> 03:26:28.959 really it's kind of just it's like a passive, aggressive, weird, effeminent. 3527 03:26:28.559 --> 03:26:32.680 Thing, right anyway, thanks for bringing me up, Yeah. 3528 03:26:32.600 --> 03:26:36.920 Thank you. I agree. I mean it's weird too because 3529 03:26:37.000 --> 03:26:42.239 back in the day, like in the two thousands, like 3530 03:26:42.399 --> 03:26:47.319 Calvinists and Catholics were way more like intellectual about the debates. 3531 03:26:48.200 --> 03:26:50.280 And this is something because I remember, like I was 3532 03:26:50.440 --> 03:26:52.840 in Messing that you know, from two thousand and one 3533 03:26:53.120 --> 03:26:57.319 two three, I was all about internet. Catholic Protestant debates, right, 3534 03:26:57.360 --> 03:26:59.079 because I was Calvinists and I was arguing with the 3535 03:26:59.120 --> 03:26:59.920 Catholics all the time. 3536 03:27:00.079 --> 03:27:00.600 On the internet. 3537 03:27:01.879 --> 03:27:04.440 There wasn't really an Orthodox presence much on the Internet 3538 03:27:04.639 --> 03:27:07.159 in terms of apologetics or websites, so it's kind of 3539 03:27:07.280 --> 03:27:11.920 like just default Protestant versus Catholic. And one thing that's 3540 03:27:11.959 --> 03:27:14.239 interesting is like back when it was the blog wars 3541 03:27:15.120 --> 03:27:20.399 of those two thousands era, you know, exchanges and even Facebook, like, 3542 03:27:20.520 --> 03:27:22.399 it was a lot more you know, because you have 3543 03:27:22.520 --> 03:27:24.520 to write out stuff, So those are a lot more 3544 03:27:24.559 --> 03:27:27.719 I think thought that went into it. And now that 3545 03:27:27.799 --> 03:27:36.639 everything is audio, video and speech oriented, it's less intellectual 3546 03:27:36.719 --> 03:27:41.000 and it's a lot more. I mean, it's not that 3547 03:27:41.280 --> 03:27:45.760 oral debate is inherently deficient or anti intellectual. It's just 3548 03:27:45.879 --> 03:27:49.639 that the loss of the tendency to debate in a 3549 03:27:49.760 --> 03:27:53.600 written form has allowed a lot more goobers and goofballs 3550 03:27:53.680 --> 03:27:58.920 to just you know, whine and fuss and act like idiots. 3551 03:27:59.799 --> 03:28:02.159 And people don't even know how to have like a 3552 03:28:02.280 --> 03:28:06.200 formal debate, so people bitch about me like being quote mean, well, 3553 03:28:06.399 --> 03:28:09.680 if I'm interrupting people on an informal, open debate space, 3554 03:28:09.799 --> 03:28:13.040 that's not a formal debate. If I'm doing a formal debate, 3555 03:28:13.879 --> 03:28:16.040 most of the time, I'm pretty reserved. There's been a 3556 03:28:16.120 --> 03:28:19.639 couple of times, yes, where I will interrupt. I interrupted 3557 03:28:19.719 --> 03:28:22.200 the Muslim Lantern debate because he was being dishonest and 3558 03:28:22.360 --> 03:28:24.879 not representing what I said. He was misp I think, 3559 03:28:24.959 --> 03:28:28.000 intentionally misrepresenting what I said. But I mean, in most 3560 03:28:28.040 --> 03:28:31.399 of the formal debates, I'm pretty much abide by the rules. 3561 03:28:32.200 --> 03:28:34.760 And even if you don't quote abide by the rules, like, 3562 03:28:34.920 --> 03:28:36.360 that's the job of the moderator to. 3563 03:28:36.399 --> 03:28:36.920 Call you out. 3564 03:28:38.079 --> 03:28:39.799 Most people don't know how to moderate a debate, so 3565 03:28:39.879 --> 03:28:42.680 they suck at moderating debates and they don't ever call anybody. 3566 03:28:42.399 --> 03:28:45.159 Out when they violate the rules. 3567 03:28:45.760 --> 03:28:47.520 But even if you violate the rules a little bit 3568 03:28:47.600 --> 03:28:49.360 and interrupt, I mean, it's not the end of the world. 3569 03:28:49.440 --> 03:28:52.040 It's just the moderator calls you out, and you know, 3570 03:28:52.120 --> 03:28:54.840 like muti or whatever. That's the way it ought to operate. 3571 03:28:55.319 --> 03:28:57.639 But on these open spaces here like this, like when 3572 03:28:57.680 --> 03:28:59.639 we had you guys heard the atheist guy in here 3573 03:28:59.760 --> 03:29:06.200 right totally arguing it in bad faith being a sophist, Like, no, 3574 03:29:06.360 --> 03:29:08.360 I'm going to interrupt that person this is not a 3575 03:29:08.440 --> 03:29:09.040 formal debate. 3576 03:29:09.120 --> 03:29:11.520 I don't owe anyone a formal debate. I don't owe 3577 03:29:12.079 --> 03:29:13.879 some rando dude a formal debate. 3578 03:29:14.399 --> 03:29:17.639 And again, in the case of James White, I tried 3579 03:29:17.680 --> 03:29:20.680 to debate him for years, and I offered to debate 3580 03:29:20.760 --> 03:29:24.000 him on the trinity and that he had a faulty 3581 03:29:24.079 --> 03:29:28.799 concept of trinity as any indistinction, and he for years said, 3582 03:29:30.600 --> 03:29:33.479 you know, no, I don't have time to learn Orthodoxy. 3583 03:29:33.479 --> 03:29:34.719 I'm not interested in any of that. 3584 03:29:35.600 --> 03:29:38.079 And then here we are, like six years later, and he, 3585 03:29:39.840 --> 03:29:42.680 you know, tweets about how he doesn't understand my profile, 3586 03:29:42.719 --> 03:29:45.639 which is super boomer, which is funny, and then he says, 3587 03:29:46.600 --> 03:29:51.120 I want a debate when I drive my RV in 3588 03:29:51.239 --> 03:29:56.799 a year. I mean, to me, it just sous like 3589 03:29:56.879 --> 03:29:58.000 It's like, I'm kind. 3590 03:29:57.840 --> 03:30:01.479 Of surprised that he sounds like a comedian. 3591 03:30:01.559 --> 03:30:03.799 And he was saying, I'm I'm a comedian, but he 3592 03:30:03.840 --> 03:30:07.680 doesn't think I'm a comedian, but he's actually an unintentional 3593 03:30:07.760 --> 03:30:10.799 comedian because it just sounds like this just sounds like 3594 03:30:10.840 --> 03:30:11.319 a bunch. 3595 03:30:11.159 --> 03:30:13.399 Of like made up clown stuff. It's just weird. 3596 03:30:14.360 --> 03:30:14.479 Uh. 3597 03:30:14.799 --> 03:30:16.840 And then he said, why would I debate a person 3598 03:30:16.879 --> 03:30:19.559 who has a green picture on their profile of themselves? 3599 03:30:20.280 --> 03:30:23.280 Is he a green person? That was his retort. 3600 03:30:23.440 --> 03:30:29.360 Like, what, by the way, I just following up you 3601 03:30:29.520 --> 03:30:35.200 said back in the day, like you said, debating online 3602 03:30:35.600 --> 03:30:38.600 wasn't really a big thing. There weren't that many people 3603 03:30:39.520 --> 03:30:40.920 there went a bunch of goobers. 3604 03:30:41.280 --> 03:30:41.479 Yeah. 3605 03:30:41.559 --> 03:30:47.799 Right, This is probably prior to even like Facebook. You 3606 03:30:47.840 --> 03:30:51.440 didn't have Twitter acts and all this stuff, and so 3607 03:30:52.440 --> 03:30:54.159 you could kind of people knew what they were doing. 3608 03:30:54.239 --> 03:30:55.799 For the most part, you can kind of get it, 3609 03:30:55.840 --> 03:31:00.360 and there was kind of reputation within those circles. Now 3610 03:31:00.520 --> 03:31:06.360 everybody and their moms online can just challenge you, know you, 3611 03:31:06.639 --> 03:31:10.600 and so it's a matter of like wasting time, Like 3612 03:31:11.000 --> 03:31:14.120 sure the person might be right, but there's a million 3613 03:31:14.239 --> 03:31:19.280 people all challenge you. There's no way that you're going 3614 03:31:19.360 --> 03:31:24.200 to waste your time writing out a formal debate and 3615 03:31:24.280 --> 03:31:28.360 written format for every single person who's challenging you. So 3616 03:31:28.479 --> 03:31:32.799 the best thing is to it's a different Yeah, the 3617 03:31:32.920 --> 03:31:36.719 best thing is just to open up a space where 3618 03:31:36.719 --> 03:31:39.559 there's a dedicated time. And I think that's even better 3619 03:31:39.600 --> 03:31:44.479 if people got you know, get upset when they get 3620 03:31:44.520 --> 03:31:49.040 the block on X. But the fact of The matter is, 3621 03:31:49.200 --> 03:31:52.319 if you don't block people, these stupid arguments will go 3622 03:31:52.479 --> 03:31:55.280 on forever endeavor you can't get on with your life. 3623 03:31:55.319 --> 03:31:58.520 So isn't it better just to say whatever your criticism is, 3624 03:31:58.600 --> 03:32:01.639 whatever your argument, Well, here's a space dedicated you can 3625 03:32:01.719 --> 03:32:04.959 come on and make your argument, but you're not owed anything. 3626 03:32:05.040 --> 03:32:08.159 You're not owed and on not to be blocked and 3627 03:32:08.280 --> 03:32:12.120 an endless back and forth of stupid tweets. 3628 03:32:17.600 --> 03:32:21.200 Yeah, I mean, the positives of debate are oral. 3629 03:32:21.280 --> 03:32:24.840 Debate is that people don't get the trick of relying 3630 03:32:24.959 --> 03:32:28.360 on AI, which is what a lot of them want 3631 03:32:28.399 --> 03:32:31.200 to do when they say I only do written debates, Well, 3632 03:32:31.319 --> 03:32:33.239 you didn't have AI back in two thousand and five 3633 03:32:33.280 --> 03:32:36.799 when you were doing written blog debates and now you do. 3634 03:32:37.479 --> 03:32:40.680 So No, it's not going to work to let you 3635 03:32:40.920 --> 03:32:43.760 just like sit there and type out and who has 3636 03:32:43.799 --> 03:32:44.520 the time to do this. 3637 03:32:46.120 --> 03:32:46.520 Anyway. 3638 03:32:46.600 --> 03:32:50.239 I'm not going to type out twenty pages argument with 3639 03:32:50.360 --> 03:32:53.200 some random dude. That's what was going on today. There 3640 03:32:53.239 --> 03:32:55.360 was a Calvinist guy saying I will only debate you 3641 03:32:55.440 --> 03:32:57.520 in a written blog format. I'm like, dude, it's not 3642 03:32:57.600 --> 03:32:59.319 two thousand and three, man, what are you talking about. 3643 03:33:00.680 --> 03:33:02.680 The other thing you figured out there was another group 3644 03:33:02.719 --> 03:33:05.559 of people that were challenging tag the kind of the 3645 03:33:05.639 --> 03:33:11.760 pseudo intellectuals. Most of them would never come into a 3646 03:33:12.760 --> 03:33:17.040 voice chat debate, and what we figured out is basically 3647 03:33:17.120 --> 03:33:19.159 what they were doing is they were taking these into 3648 03:33:19.239 --> 03:33:21.360 other servers and working them out and taking them to 3649 03:33:21.399 --> 03:33:22.440 philosophy professors. 3650 03:33:22.799 --> 03:33:28.799 Yea like Appy and Right, So you're not actually debating 3651 03:33:28.840 --> 03:33:32.200 that guy. You're debating like a buddy, You're a debating. 3652 03:33:33.600 --> 03:33:39.200 Yeah, grad students And two of the best atheist philosophers 3653 03:33:39.319 --> 03:33:42.239 are Appy and what's the other guy with my blanking on. 3654 03:33:44.200 --> 03:33:45.360 Oz and Ozzy. 3655 03:33:48.239 --> 03:33:51.479 Yeah, he's the guy that coaches Della Hunty when Della 3656 03:33:51.559 --> 03:33:52.520 Hunty gets scared. 3657 03:33:53.399 --> 03:33:56.159 Yeah, So they just take it and they work these things. 3658 03:33:56.239 --> 03:33:58.879 So it's like, well, just no, I'm not going to 3659 03:33:58.920 --> 03:34:01.760 waste my time going back and forth and text with 3660 03:34:02.280 --> 03:34:03.280 a whole crew of. 3661 03:34:05.840 --> 03:34:08.760 Yeah, you're supposed to debate like, uh, you know, a 3662 03:34:08.840 --> 03:34:10.760 discord of fifty atheists. 3663 03:34:10.319 --> 03:34:14.799 Or you're scared? Right, ultravol kool Aid? 3664 03:34:14.840 --> 03:34:19.200 What's up, hey, Jerry Camyred. 3665 03:34:19.559 --> 03:34:24.639 Yeah, So I'm actually local in Phoenix and I used 3666 03:34:24.680 --> 03:34:30.120 to go to Apologia Studios and I've studied under James 3667 03:34:30.159 --> 03:34:33.280 White for a while before I started learning about Orthodoxy, 3668 03:34:33.840 --> 03:34:37.360 and I just wanted to say that when he promised it, saying. 3669 03:34:37.200 --> 03:34:38.280 Like, oh is this him? 3670 03:34:38.479 --> 03:34:39.000 I don't know. 3671 03:34:39.440 --> 03:34:42.879 He knows full well who you are. He made responses, 3672 03:34:43.000 --> 03:34:45.239 he's talked about it. Yeah, he's talked about you, So 3673 03:34:45.280 --> 03:34:47.040 I don't know how he was trying to start that with. 3674 03:34:47.200 --> 03:34:48.520 Like, Oh, who's this guy. 3675 03:34:49.040 --> 03:34:52.440 He's made claims about you before and he knows farewell 3676 03:34:52.479 --> 03:34:54.399 who you were, so like, I think it was just 3677 03:34:54.479 --> 03:34:57.280 dishonest how he started the interaction trying to claim like, oh, 3678 03:34:57.440 --> 03:34:59.239 is this the guy people who have been talking about. 3679 03:35:00.959 --> 03:35:08.719 Yeah, he was being silly, so I agree. But yeah, again, 3680 03:35:08.840 --> 03:35:09.239 let's like. 3681 03:35:11.840 --> 03:35:13.920 It's the same kind of thing that William Aulbrick would do, 3682 03:35:13.959 --> 03:35:15.559 where it'd be like you'd be trying to set up 3683 03:35:15.559 --> 03:35:18.319 a debate for years and he would say, Okay, in 3684 03:35:18.440 --> 03:35:21.719 six months it'll be live. And then it's like he's 3685 03:35:21.799 --> 03:35:24.959 expecting you to set up a live venue and you're like, well, now, 3686 03:35:25.040 --> 03:35:26.200 let's just do it on the internet. 3687 03:35:26.319 --> 03:35:29.319 I don't do that. I do it live. Do it 3688 03:35:29.479 --> 03:35:31.319 live right, like O'Reilly or something. 3689 03:35:31.399 --> 03:35:36.000 It's like everybody in the world nowadays does internet debates. 3690 03:35:36.479 --> 03:35:38.760 What do you mean setting it up in person in 3691 03:35:38.879 --> 03:35:42.680 six months and then six months goes by and it's like, oh, yeah, 3692 03:35:43.920 --> 03:35:46.840 a lot going on, let's do it live in another 3693 03:35:46.959 --> 03:35:50.440 six months. It's just so stupid. It's like you could 3694 03:35:50.520 --> 03:35:53.079 literally hop on this stream. And by the way, haven't 3695 03:35:53.079 --> 03:35:55.440 you been told defending Calvinism for thirty years? Why do 3696 03:35:55.479 --> 03:35:58.600 you need a year of preparation to debate and defend 3697 03:35:58.680 --> 03:36:01.520 your Calvinist stuff. You've been debating for like thirty your 3698 03:36:01.559 --> 03:36:02.079 whole life. 3699 03:36:02.959 --> 03:36:15.239 It's just it's just stupid. Eli, I went's up by 3700 03:36:15.319 --> 03:36:15.600 the way. 3701 03:36:15.840 --> 03:36:19.600 By the way, I don't know if maybe Wes Wes 3702 03:36:19.719 --> 03:36:22.200 Hoff might be more popular than James White now right. 3703 03:36:22.360 --> 03:36:24.760 So it's like we're already trying to set up a 3704 03:36:24.799 --> 03:36:28.520 debate on tim cast with me versus I don't I 3705 03:36:28.559 --> 03:36:30.920 don't know if I'll have a companion or not, but 3706 03:36:31.079 --> 03:36:35.120 me versus. It was supposed to be Michael Knowles originally 3707 03:36:35.200 --> 03:36:39.360 and Tim Poole, and then I don't think Michael Knowles 3708 03:36:39.360 --> 03:36:40.479 will do it, so I was like, well, you better 3709 03:36:40.479 --> 03:36:43.760 get Tim Gordon because Michael Knowles will rely on Tim Gordon. 3710 03:36:44.600 --> 03:36:46.639 And then they were like, oh, we need Protestants too, 3711 03:36:46.799 --> 03:36:49.200 and so I can't stand. 3712 03:36:49.440 --> 03:36:51.879 I don't know who's I guess James White's worse than 3713 03:36:51.959 --> 03:36:56.040 Doug Wilson. So I have less distaste for Doug Wilson 3714 03:36:56.079 --> 03:36:59.959 than James White. But I mean, isn't Wes Huff kind 3715 03:36:59.959 --> 03:37:03.000 of the hot topic right now? So what did he 3716 03:37:03.079 --> 03:37:06.840 be better than all these boom Boomer gen z old 3717 03:37:06.920 --> 03:37:08.600 fogies that nobody really cares about. 3718 03:37:08.959 --> 03:37:10.479 So I'd prefer it be like west Off. 3719 03:37:10.559 --> 03:37:11.079 But I don't know. 3720 03:37:14.639 --> 03:37:14.680 You. 3721 03:37:16.479 --> 03:37:19.719 Oh hey, Jay, I had a quick question on the 3722 03:37:19.799 --> 03:37:23.120 topic of confession. I don't know if you don't want 3723 03:37:23.120 --> 03:37:24.559 to answer that or well. 3724 03:37:24.520 --> 03:37:26.520 Father Diacon probably be able to better answer that than me. 3725 03:37:27.399 --> 03:37:28.440 Okay, perfect, perfect. 3726 03:37:29.159 --> 03:37:31.559 Uh So the reason why I'm asking is because I 3727 03:37:31.760 --> 03:37:35.280 was talking to a Protestant family member of mine and 3728 03:37:35.520 --> 03:37:39.680 we were talking about confession, and she was saying, why 3729 03:37:39.799 --> 03:37:44.239 would why would she go confess to a priest when 3730 03:37:44.399 --> 03:37:47.440 she can just guess confess it between her and God? 3731 03:37:47.600 --> 03:37:51.959 Because if the idea and I'm not fully well versed 3732 03:37:52.000 --> 03:37:56.680 on confession yet, but basically saying, wouldn't you be constricting 3733 03:37:56.760 --> 03:37:58.920 God's power of forgiveness if you have to go to 3734 03:37:59.040 --> 03:38:02.600 a priest? Chester forgiveness for even like the smallest things, 3735 03:38:03.239 --> 03:38:05.120 or like what would be considered a small sin. 3736 03:38:05.399 --> 03:38:11.159 I guess in her words, well, I think that in. 3737 03:38:11.200 --> 03:38:13.520 The Old Testament it was already kind of an element 3738 03:38:13.600 --> 03:38:17.000 of this, because you brought your sacrifice to the temple 3739 03:38:17.200 --> 03:38:21.200 based on in many cases the type of sin that 3740 03:38:21.280 --> 03:38:22.000 you had committed. 3741 03:38:22.559 --> 03:38:24.920 So that was kind of an implicit confession. And then 3742 03:38:25.000 --> 03:38:26.440 sometimes we see this. 3743 03:38:26.760 --> 03:38:28.760 We even see the tradition with John the Baptists, where 3744 03:38:28.799 --> 03:38:31.479 it says that they came to him repenting and confessing 3745 03:38:31.520 --> 03:38:33.639 their sins and being baptized. 3746 03:38:34.479 --> 03:38:36.280 So even with John the Baptist, that occurs. 3747 03:38:36.399 --> 03:38:39.159 Jesus says in the Gospel John that he breathes on 3748 03:38:39.239 --> 03:38:41.920 the disciples, and he says, whoever sins you, they're remitted. 3749 03:38:41.959 --> 03:38:44.680 Whoever sins you retained, they're retained. And so we think 3750 03:38:44.799 --> 03:38:48.000 that there really is this principle of the notion of 3751 03:38:48.040 --> 03:38:50.639 the Body of Christ having the ability through the ministers 3752 03:38:50.719 --> 03:38:53.600 to actually remit and retain sins. So there's a real 3753 03:38:53.719 --> 03:38:57.799 power that's there that you know, is not in the 3754 03:38:57.879 --> 03:38:58.719 Protestant world. 3755 03:38:58.920 --> 03:39:01.120 But it's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. 3756 03:39:01.719 --> 03:39:05.360 And because we're bodily creatures who are not just you know, 3757 03:39:05.600 --> 03:39:09.600 minds floating around or ghosts floating around. We have a body, 3758 03:39:09.799 --> 03:39:13.159 and our body then interacts with another body, which here's 3759 03:39:13.239 --> 03:39:16.719 our confession, and which then pronounces, you know, absolution. So 3760 03:39:17.399 --> 03:39:20.879 that bodily aspect to absolution I think is a mercy 3761 03:39:21.000 --> 03:39:25.520 from God that allows us to actually feel and sense 3762 03:39:25.760 --> 03:39:28.920 that we have been forgiven, beyond just praying to God, 3763 03:39:29.000 --> 03:39:32.040 which of course you can do, but I think it's 3764 03:39:32.079 --> 03:39:35.440 a lot it's better if we understand and see oral 3765 03:39:35.479 --> 03:39:38.120 confession as a gift rather than some sort of punishment. 3766 03:39:38.239 --> 03:39:42.440 It's it's better understood in my view. Oh okay, that 3767 03:39:42.520 --> 03:39:43.319 makes sense. 3768 03:39:43.399 --> 03:39:47.520 So I guess from what I understand is while technically 3769 03:39:47.600 --> 03:39:49.959 you could still be forgiven of your sense if you 3770 03:39:50.040 --> 03:39:53.360 were to confess it to God, it would be best 3771 03:39:53.760 --> 03:39:54.840 to document. 3772 03:39:54.520 --> 03:39:58.520 Of confession helps us have an assurance of forgiveness, and 3773 03:39:58.799 --> 03:40:02.479 that's the positive part of it. So that's a good 3774 03:40:02.520 --> 03:40:04.959 thing in my view, I mean especially. 3775 03:40:04.760 --> 03:40:11.520 Yeah, so Christ establishes the way to confess, the way 3776 03:40:11.600 --> 03:40:16.440 to pray, a lot of these different things, and you 3777 03:40:16.520 --> 03:40:20.280 can always say, like, well, couldn't we do it? Apart 3778 03:40:20.360 --> 03:40:26.360 from that, Yeah, but he didn't prescribe. He didn't prescribe that. Now, 3779 03:40:26.440 --> 03:40:29.600 of course we do in our prayers we confess to God. 3780 03:40:31.079 --> 03:40:35.799 But we're told it's a both and that. But you 3781 03:40:35.959 --> 03:40:39.360 need to to pray this way, you need to confess 3782 03:40:39.440 --> 03:40:43.319 this way. You need to do these things. And like 3783 03:40:43.520 --> 03:40:50.680 Jay said, it has both spiritual and practical benefits. As 3784 03:40:50.719 --> 03:40:55.239 a Protestant, when I confessed just to God, I didn't 3785 03:40:55.280 --> 03:40:59.079 get better. I still did the same sense. 3786 03:41:01.120 --> 03:41:01.840 Because I wasn't. 3787 03:41:01.719 --> 03:41:05.280 Accountable to anybody. And so we learn accountability to God. 3788 03:41:05.959 --> 03:41:06.680 Yeah, a good point. 3789 03:41:07.280 --> 03:41:10.559 By making ourselves accountable to other people. The way that 3790 03:41:10.639 --> 03:41:17.079 we practice obedience to God is obedience to our hierarchs 3791 03:41:17.200 --> 03:41:19.799 and our elders and stuff like that. In this case, 3792 03:41:19.920 --> 03:41:20.479 the priests. 3793 03:41:21.120 --> 03:41:22.000 The way that we. 3794 03:41:25.319 --> 03:41:29.799 Practice all these things is here and now, so God 3795 03:41:29.959 --> 03:41:32.840 knows that this works. And the other way if it 3796 03:41:32.959 --> 03:41:35.920 was just well, I can just go straight to God. 3797 03:41:38.600 --> 03:41:43.879 It doesn't do anything practically and psychologically, one typically continues 3798 03:41:44.280 --> 03:41:48.239 in their sin. But and also to have like a 3799 03:41:48.360 --> 03:41:54.799 real relationship with a priest who's counseling you, well, why 3800 03:41:54.799 --> 03:41:58.159 do you think that you did this? Let's talk about 3801 03:41:58.200 --> 03:42:02.280 this and let's go forward on how to make you better. 3802 03:42:03.319 --> 03:42:04.600 You don't get that in Protestantism. 3803 03:42:05.520 --> 03:42:05.920 Mm hmm. 3804 03:42:06.959 --> 03:42:12.159 And also it follows on the scriptural thing having a witness, 3805 03:42:13.559 --> 03:42:16.600 like you're required to have a witness in these things 3806 03:42:16.680 --> 03:42:19.559 like where's your witness? And oh, I confess to God? 3807 03:42:21.760 --> 03:42:25.479 So the priest acts as a witness. You're confessing to 3808 03:42:25.559 --> 03:42:28.479 God in the confession, and the priest is the witness 3809 03:42:28.600 --> 03:42:31.799 to that and has given the power to then as 3810 03:42:31.879 --> 03:42:38.479 being the witness also to announce the absolution or retaining 3811 03:42:38.799 --> 03:42:39.239 the sins. 3812 03:42:43.120 --> 03:43:01.000 What's up? Are you there? We can't hear you, dude, 3813 03:43:01.159 --> 03:43:08.200 Are you there? I don't know. Your microphone doesn't work. 3814 03:43:08.239 --> 03:43:13.959 Then sounds like static, So it's open for him. We're 3815 03:43:14.000 --> 03:43:16.559 still here. I've still got a little more energy. If 3816 03:43:16.600 --> 03:43:19.399 anybody wants to hop up on the panel. 3817 03:43:20.639 --> 03:43:25.799 Topics, So are Calvinism, Protestantism, Catholicism, islam, atheism. If you 3818 03:43:25.840 --> 03:43:28.479 would like to discuss, if you would like to debate, 3819 03:43:28.600 --> 03:43:41.319 if you would like to offer an argument, Alexander, go ahead, yes. 3820 03:43:41.200 --> 03:43:42.719 Sir, all right? Cool. 3821 03:43:42.920 --> 03:43:45.799 I had a question when talking to Calvinists and they 3822 03:43:45.840 --> 03:43:48.559 start playing the that's not what we actually believe game. 3823 03:43:49.280 --> 03:43:50.319 What do you go to look at? 3824 03:43:51.040 --> 03:43:53.719 Because a couple of times I've talked some and they've said, oh, 3825 03:43:53.760 --> 03:43:55.879 that's not what we actually believe, that's not what Calvin Todd, 3826 03:43:55.879 --> 03:43:57.319 and I look it up and that is what Calvin 3827 03:43:57.360 --> 03:44:00.840 Todd kind of like how I went and sat down 3828 03:44:00.920 --> 03:44:03.159 and read all the Vatican two after getting tired of 3829 03:44:03.559 --> 03:44:04.680 Catholics doing the same thing. 3830 03:44:04.799 --> 03:44:05.479 What do you recommend? 3831 03:44:06.520 --> 03:44:09.280 What do you recommend reading as far as refuting Calvinists 3832 03:44:09.280 --> 03:44:10.040 when they start doing that. 3833 03:44:12.600 --> 03:44:18.159 Well, I mean, I mean, well there's there's different, you know, 3834 03:44:19.360 --> 03:44:21.719 groups of Calvinists, so they're all going to kind of 3835 03:44:21.760 --> 03:44:24.559 have their pay their favorite sort of peteologians. I mean, 3836 03:44:25.319 --> 03:44:28.120 you can't go wrong in Calvinism with the fifteen to 3837 03:44:28.120 --> 03:44:34.440 fifty nine institutes, the Westminster Confession, Charles Hodge, John Murray, 3838 03:44:36.239 --> 03:44:39.000 I mean, those are all kind of the you know Luminaries, 3839 03:44:39.200 --> 03:44:43.319 Francis Puritan. I mean, those are all pretty well known 3840 03:44:43.479 --> 03:44:49.959 representatives of Calvinism. Okay, you know, put that on the 3841 03:44:50.000 --> 03:44:57.159 reading list. There's also Bavving systematic theology as a classic. 3842 03:44:59.280 --> 03:45:02.120 Okay, yeah, I'll get around to it eventually, but mostly 3843 03:45:02.200 --> 03:45:04.319 I'm just going to try not to talk to Calvinists. 3844 03:45:05.200 --> 03:45:08.399 Well, i mean, the Westminster Confession itself, might be the most, 3845 03:45:08.879 --> 03:45:10.719 you know, because it's intended to kind of be their 3846 03:45:11.920 --> 03:45:13.200 confession of faith and. 3847 03:45:15.000 --> 03:45:17.479 It's not that long. It's just like, I don't know, 3848 03:45:17.600 --> 03:45:20.440 twenty nine or thirty paragraphs. But it does have a 3849 03:45:20.479 --> 03:45:23.319 catechism with it, so you could have the Westminster Confession 3850 03:45:23.399 --> 03:45:28.399 or the Westminster Catechism would be the classical Calvinist confession. 3851 03:45:28.799 --> 03:45:37.479 What's up, job, Yes, sir, Yeah. 3852 03:45:37.479 --> 03:45:40.360 When I was a Calvinist, we used the Westminster Confession 3853 03:45:40.399 --> 03:45:42.360 and Catechism all the time. That was kind of our 3854 03:45:43.280 --> 03:45:46.120 If people converted that they would use that as catechism. 3855 03:45:53.360 --> 03:45:54.159 Go ahead, man, what's up? 3856 03:45:55.959 --> 03:46:00.479 I wanted to ask a question about vicious circularity and 3857 03:46:00.719 --> 03:46:04.799 how if you or Father Deacon could help define it 3858 03:46:04.920 --> 03:46:05.200 for me. 3859 03:46:07.000 --> 03:46:07.920 He's probably the best for this. 3860 03:46:10.399 --> 03:46:16.159 So I've heard like vicious circularity as opposed to or 3861 03:46:16.200 --> 03:46:21.040 being virtuously circular as opposed to vicious circularity, and I've 3862 03:46:21.079 --> 03:46:23.559 been trying to like study this just to give like 3863 03:46:23.600 --> 03:46:24.760 a clear definition on it. 3864 03:46:26.120 --> 03:46:29.000 So he. 3865 03:46:30.920 --> 03:46:34.920 Argues that circularity is just a loaded term, and that's confusing. 3866 03:46:35.040 --> 03:46:39.280 So he argues that at a paradigm level, at the 3867 03:46:39.360 --> 03:46:44.879 base level, worldviews are self referencing, are recursive, and that 3868 03:46:45.040 --> 03:46:49.000 that might help avoid the confusion over the fallacy of 3869 03:46:49.159 --> 03:46:50.079 circular reasonings. 3870 03:46:50.319 --> 03:46:53.040 Yeah, that's exactly right. 3871 03:46:56.799 --> 03:47:03.399 Yeah, obviously, so it's typically vicious circularity. And I don't 3872 03:47:03.399 --> 03:47:12.360 even use virtuous circularity because it's confusing, so but yeah, 3873 03:47:12.760 --> 03:47:26.319 typically vicious circularity is where the the argument's conclusion is 3874 03:47:26.399 --> 03:47:31.479 basically one of the premises. So what supports the conclusion 3875 03:47:32.319 --> 03:47:37.239 the premises. The premises support the conclusion. And this can 3876 03:47:37.319 --> 03:47:39.440 be done in a different way where you slightly reword it, 3877 03:47:40.239 --> 03:47:44.159 or you go through a chain of reasoning that goes back, well, 3878 03:47:44.200 --> 03:47:46.319 this is true. If this is true, this is true, 3879 03:47:47.239 --> 03:47:52.200 which goes back to the first stuff like that is 3880 03:47:54.920 --> 03:48:03.000 is typically what's considered premise circularity or vicious circularity. But 3881 03:48:03.120 --> 03:48:07.959 obviously not all circularity is bad. I mean, if you 3882 03:48:08.079 --> 03:48:10.680 draw a circle on a paper, it's is that a fallacy, 3883 03:48:14.600 --> 03:48:15.440 right right? 3884 03:48:15.600 --> 03:48:20.079 I heard an atheist talk about tag like, oh, this 3885 03:48:20.200 --> 03:48:24.799 is viciously circular because premise one God's the necessary condition 3886 03:48:24.920 --> 03:48:28.719 for knowledge is basically just being restated and the conclusion 3887 03:48:28.920 --> 03:48:34.280 therefore God exists. And my understanding is that, no, that's 3888 03:48:34.360 --> 03:48:37.879 not viciously circular because premise one is in fact not 3889 03:48:38.000 --> 03:48:42.879 identical to the conclusion, right, and so vicious circularity would 3890 03:48:42.920 --> 03:48:46.840 it be that it would be viciously circular if God 3891 03:48:46.920 --> 03:48:50.280 is the necessary condition for knowledge, we have knowledge. Therefore 3892 03:48:50.319 --> 03:48:52.040 God is the necessary condition for knowledge. 3893 03:48:52.360 --> 03:48:55.319 And that's not the only art. I mean, I could 3894 03:48:55.360 --> 03:48:57.799 just plug whatever I want it in and it's like, well, 3895 03:48:57.840 --> 03:49:02.799 it makes it true. God's true because I assume He 3896 03:49:02.920 --> 03:49:07.159 must be the necessary conditions. If it was simply that, 3897 03:49:07.479 --> 03:49:14.639 obviously that is vicious circularity. But the support for that 3898 03:49:15.600 --> 03:49:23.680 is twofold one is impossibility of the contrary and number 3899 03:49:23.719 --> 03:49:28.760 two which is the indirect account, and number two is 3900 03:49:30.120 --> 03:49:34.799 the positive account that for the entire paradigm. So it's 3901 03:49:34.879 --> 03:49:38.639 not simply we're playing in a word, we mean something 3902 03:49:38.719 --> 03:49:43.319 very specific by the term God, which includes the conception 3903 03:49:43.440 --> 03:49:46.120 of the Trinity, is articulated in the Orthodox Faith, and 3904 03:49:46.239 --> 03:49:51.200 so it's God's revelation to mankind is preserved in the 3905 03:49:51.319 --> 03:49:56.319 Orthodox Faith, and that the Orthodox Faith provides all the 3906 03:49:56.360 --> 03:50:03.520 sufficient conditions for the necessary conditions for the possibility of knowledge, 3907 03:50:03.600 --> 03:50:06.360 and nothing else does that. So I mean, if it 3908 03:50:06.479 --> 03:50:11.200 was just while I plug the terman and therefore I 3909 03:50:11.280 --> 03:50:15.120 assume God to prove God, I mean, yeah, that's vicious circular. 3910 03:50:15.239 --> 03:50:18.120 So there's straw man in the arguments, but that's not 3911 03:50:18.239 --> 03:50:25.799 the argument, right. I mean there's a series of kind 3912 03:50:25.840 --> 03:50:28.879 of different arguments that even when I put it in 3913 03:50:28.920 --> 03:50:32.159 the most opponents, there's kind of steps, like, first of all, 3914 03:50:32.200 --> 03:50:36.120 do you even understand what a transcendental deduction is at 3915 03:50:36.159 --> 03:50:42.120 the so we're kind of the logical, metapistemological level, and 3916 03:50:42.239 --> 03:50:44.479 you put it in a form and then there's further 3917 03:50:44.799 --> 03:50:50.040 arguments and support for that. Otherwise, Yeah, it would be 3918 03:50:50.280 --> 03:50:56.399 simply PREMI circularity. I assume God to prove God, and 3919 03:50:56.520 --> 03:51:00.360 I prove God because I assumed him, Like nobody makes 3920 03:51:00.399 --> 03:51:01.760 as far as I know, that argument. 3921 03:51:06.159 --> 03:51:09.319 Thank you for that question, Joe. Appreciate all the time 3922 03:51:09.399 --> 03:51:12.319 stamping and hard work that you do. Wi Fi. What's up? 3923 03:51:12.360 --> 03:51:12.479 Man? 3924 03:51:14.239 --> 03:51:14.399 Hey? 3925 03:51:14.600 --> 03:51:14.760 Jay? 3926 03:51:14.879 --> 03:51:15.520 What's up? So? 3927 03:51:16.040 --> 03:51:18.479 I'm pretty new to the debate scene, and I've been 3928 03:51:18.520 --> 03:51:22.280 debating some atheists, so I've been eager to take more debates, 3929 03:51:22.479 --> 03:51:26.000 and i've kind of I've taken them maybe a little 3930 03:51:26.079 --> 03:51:30.719 too hastily. I'm debating some guys who may be bad 3931 03:51:30.840 --> 03:51:33.079 faith or sophistry maybe the right term. 3932 03:51:33.559 --> 03:51:34.840 I think he debated one of them. 3933 03:51:34.959 --> 03:51:37.440 His name is Korn's and I just I guess wanted 3934 03:51:37.680 --> 03:51:40.000 your opinion on how to deal with these types of 3935 03:51:40.040 --> 03:51:40.760 people in debate. 3936 03:51:44.120 --> 03:51:46.680 Well, honestly, I would have waste my time with debating 3937 03:51:47.440 --> 03:51:48.559 bad faith debaters. 3938 03:51:48.639 --> 03:51:52.200 I just think it's a massive drain. And a lot 3939 03:51:52.239 --> 03:51:54.799 of people are a lot of people internet a board 3940 03:51:54.840 --> 03:51:57.120 and they're just kind of like wandering around looking for 3941 03:51:57.200 --> 03:51:59.680 something to do, and they'll just debate for the hell 3942 03:51:59.719 --> 03:52:01.799 of it, adopting positions that they don't hold. 3943 03:52:01.840 --> 03:52:03.200 So I would just not waste my time. 3944 03:52:03.680 --> 03:52:06.760 I would be catechized in Orthodoxy before debating, and and 3945 03:52:07.360 --> 03:52:08.680 to go that rout peep the sheep. 3946 03:52:08.719 --> 03:52:17.200 What's up? Hello? Yeah? 3947 03:52:17.280 --> 03:52:17.799 What's up? Man? 3948 03:52:20.079 --> 03:52:20.760 Wait? Am I on? 3949 03:52:22.840 --> 03:52:23.120 You are? 3950 03:52:24.399 --> 03:52:24.719 Okay? 3951 03:52:25.719 --> 03:52:27.639 I didn't expect to get on this early, kind of 3952 03:52:27.719 --> 03:52:29.360 trying to think about what I want to say, but 3953 03:52:30.280 --> 03:52:33.239 I just want to say I'm a big fan. I 3954 03:52:33.520 --> 03:52:36.600 just tuned in, so I read the topics and I 3955 03:52:36.680 --> 03:52:40.719 guess you're debating, you know, the different denominations and whatever. 3956 03:52:41.719 --> 03:52:42.760 So where up again? 3957 03:52:43.319 --> 03:52:43.479 Uh? 3958 03:52:43.840 --> 03:52:45.680 Yeah, So I'm a Protestant. I grew up in the 3959 03:52:45.799 --> 03:52:52.360 South and basically discovering your content, uh just made me 3960 03:52:52.440 --> 03:52:56.600 realize that it was a bunch of you know byes honestly, 3961 03:52:56.840 --> 03:53:02.159 and it was di y and kind of just being 3962 03:53:02.360 --> 03:53:06.120 stuck in that circle and then hearing all about all 3963 03:53:06.200 --> 03:53:09.319 the solo fide and so like solo scriptore and all 3964 03:53:09.360 --> 03:53:10.959 that stuff, Like I never heard about any of that 3965 03:53:11.040 --> 03:53:13.639 stuff in my life, and then you introduced me to that, 3966 03:53:13.799 --> 03:53:16.600 and I bought an Orthodox study Bible, and I've been 3967 03:53:16.639 --> 03:53:19.440 watching a lot of your content for years. Actually found 3968 03:53:19.440 --> 03:53:26.239 you on f wars. But basically, okay, so yeah, I 3969 03:53:26.360 --> 03:53:29.000 know you want a debate. You don't really like people, 3970 03:53:29.760 --> 03:53:34.239 ah coming on here asking you questions about Catechism and 3971 03:53:34.280 --> 03:53:38.200 all that stuff. Uh So, a couple of things I 3972 03:53:38.319 --> 03:53:40.959 was thinking of that I've heard you mentioned before, but 3973 03:53:41.639 --> 03:53:45.399 I'd never really felt where fleshed out completely is. 3974 03:53:48.200 --> 03:53:49.200 Let's see, so. 3975 03:53:51.360 --> 03:53:56.680 The it's kind of ambiguous because of uh I forget 3976 03:53:56.760 --> 03:54:00.479 the terms that you said, but you said that basically 3977 03:54:00.600 --> 03:54:04.000 scripture can be described and is it three or four 3978 03:54:04.079 --> 03:54:08.520 different ways like ontological. I'm a bit of a slow boy. 3979 03:54:08.440 --> 03:54:09.120 So bear with you. 3980 03:54:09.280 --> 03:54:12.680 But no, no, no, that's that's not that. It's called 3981 03:54:13.719 --> 03:54:16.760 the fourth senses of scripture. Yeah, talking about the literal, 3982 03:54:16.879 --> 03:54:23.719 the literal, the spiritual, allegorical, the tropological. 3983 03:54:23.000 --> 03:54:25.959 And the anagogical Yes, yes, yes, and that's the first time, 3984 03:54:26.360 --> 03:54:27.920 Like I said, like, you open my eyes to a 3985 03:54:28.000 --> 03:54:28.639 lot of that stuff. 3986 03:54:29.159 --> 03:54:32.280 And because growing up Baptist, you know, you got. 3987 03:54:32.360 --> 03:54:34.760 To remember a couple of verses and go to church 3988 03:54:34.840 --> 03:54:37.559 every now and then and say that you're you know, 3989 03:54:37.719 --> 03:54:40.120 you're moral and this and that and that's pretty much it. 3990 03:54:40.799 --> 03:54:44.440 But I do believe what you say is true, you know, 3991 03:54:44.680 --> 03:54:47.719 like there's a history to it and there's a reason 3992 03:54:47.799 --> 03:54:50.639 you follow certain canons and scriptures and all that stuff. 3993 03:54:50.680 --> 03:54:52.239 So I do agree with that. 3994 03:54:54.079 --> 03:54:57.719 But oh yeah, So the the question I have is 3995 03:54:58.360 --> 03:55:01.000 how do you know when to apply one of those. 3996 03:55:02.799 --> 03:55:03.760 What was it again? 3997 03:55:03.840 --> 03:55:04.239 I forget? 3998 03:55:04.280 --> 03:55:07.959 I'm sorry, right, So these are this is called hermanudicts, 3999 03:55:08.040 --> 03:55:13.559 which is the interpretation of the scriptures. Okay, so hermanudicts 4000 03:55:13.639 --> 03:55:16.360 is not like there's principles and rules, but there's no 4001 03:55:17.159 --> 03:55:21.639 hard and fast uh way or science necessarily that's going 4002 03:55:21.719 --> 03:55:27.239 to tell you automatically when to interpret which text, just 4003 03:55:27.360 --> 03:55:30.079 on the basis of that principle of the fourth senses. 4004 03:55:30.879 --> 03:55:36.120 So for example, exa Jesus means reading the text, looking 4005 03:55:36.159 --> 03:55:39.959 at the language, the context, and figuring out what the 4006 03:55:40.280 --> 03:55:44.239 original language means and what the writers were intending to convey. 4007 03:55:44.959 --> 03:55:47.600 So actually Jesus is just understanding the meanings of the 4008 03:55:47.639 --> 03:55:52.239 words and the texts in a raw sense, but hermeneuticts 4009 03:55:52.440 --> 03:55:56.559 is interpreting the text and looking at the different deeper 4010 03:55:56.719 --> 03:55:58.239 senses and meanings that might. 4011 03:55:58.239 --> 03:55:59.000 Also be there. 4012 03:56:00.000 --> 03:56:01.639 So you can kind of go crazy with this like 4013 03:56:01.799 --> 03:56:05.840 Origin did, where he over allegorized everything. But you can 4014 03:56:05.920 --> 03:56:08.639 also be too extreme in the other direction of being 4015 03:56:08.719 --> 03:56:13.559 a literalist or focusing on only the grammatical historical context, 4016 03:56:14.120 --> 03:56:16.639 which is just the first layer or level of scripture. 4017 03:56:17.280 --> 03:56:20.200 But it doesn't necessaridate that every single verse has quote 4018 03:56:20.239 --> 03:56:20.920 four senses. 4019 03:56:21.559 --> 03:56:23.440 It's a little more nuanced. 4020 03:56:23.040 --> 03:56:26.760 Than that because some, you know, passages of scripture are 4021 03:56:26.920 --> 03:56:30.920 just straightforward. They're just meant to be, for example, proverbs, 4022 03:56:31.440 --> 03:56:35.159 although some proverbs do have a deeper spiritual significance, like 4023 03:56:35.959 --> 03:56:38.280 you know, in the first few chapters of Proverbs, when 4024 03:56:38.319 --> 03:56:42.520 it talks about lady Wisdom and the seven pillars that 4025 03:56:42.600 --> 03:56:44.799 she's built her house and she brings bread and wine. 4026 03:56:44.959 --> 03:56:48.159 That's obviously a type of the church. But a lot 4027 03:56:48.200 --> 03:56:54.239 of the proverbs are just you know, basic wisdom, avoid wickedness, 4028 03:56:54.440 --> 03:56:56.559 be righteous, you know what I mean, it's like, there's 4029 03:56:56.600 --> 03:56:58.479 not four sensits of that, it's just kind of what 4030 03:56:58.600 --> 03:57:03.959 it is. But you have to, I think, be very 4031 03:57:04.040 --> 03:57:07.799 familiar with the Biblical literature and also different types of 4032 03:57:07.920 --> 03:57:11.479 literature in the scriptures, such as if you're reading you know, 4033 03:57:11.760 --> 03:57:18.280 poetic literature, prophetic literature, liturgical literature like the Psalms, historical 4034 03:57:19.040 --> 03:57:21.440 accounts like the Book of Kings like so you got 4035 03:57:21.520 --> 03:57:23.760 to understand the different types of literature in the Bible 4036 03:57:23.760 --> 03:57:25.959 as well. And if you if you go to seminary, 4037 03:57:26.040 --> 03:57:29.319 if you go to Bible school, you'll learn all this stuff. 4038 03:57:29.440 --> 03:57:32.159 This is all just kind of basic and and all 4039 03:57:32.239 --> 03:57:36.280 that stuff's not even unique to like Orthodoxy, Like every Protestant, 4040 03:57:36.360 --> 03:57:39.959 Catholic Orthodox seminary will teach you all that same stuff. 4041 03:57:41.079 --> 03:57:53.200 Job, what's up? And just had to show, I mean 4042 03:57:53.200 --> 03:57:54.239 to boot you out how you were done? 4043 03:57:55.000 --> 03:57:59.440 Oh no words. And this is different from about the 4044 03:57:59.520 --> 03:58:03.639 vicious quilarity thing. It's just kind of about the first 4045 03:58:03.799 --> 03:58:07.399 order verse second order thing. I wanted to refresh my 4046 03:58:07.559 --> 03:58:12.360 memory on. So is it correct to say that first 4047 03:58:12.600 --> 03:58:18.000 order statements are constitutive of second order statements? 4048 03:58:18.079 --> 03:58:18.399 So like. 4049 03:58:20.559 --> 03:58:27.000 If someone says God does not exist, right, like this 4050 03:58:27.120 --> 03:58:28.799 is the whole like old j Mike thing. He likes 4051 03:58:28.840 --> 03:58:32.159 to ask people like, does the proposition God does not 4052 03:58:32.239 --> 03:58:36.959 exist entail a contradiction? And I was thinking about this 4053 03:58:37.479 --> 03:58:43.680 and I think it absolutely does, because in the light 4054 03:58:43.719 --> 03:58:46.159 of the Christian paradigm, if God does not exist, then 4055 03:58:47.280 --> 03:58:50.799 that would destroy the possibility of knowledge to make any 4056 03:58:51.000 --> 03:58:54.079 second order statements about first order? 4057 03:58:54.799 --> 03:58:56.200 Yeah, is that correct? 4058 03:58:57.479 --> 03:59:02.920 And first order is usually it's the second order our statements. 4059 03:59:03.040 --> 03:59:12.360 First orders are Jim believes the tree is green, then 4060 03:59:12.479 --> 03:59:15.159 Jim makes a statement I know the tree is green, 4061 03:59:15.520 --> 03:59:19.159 or the Jim makes a statement the tree is green, 4062 03:59:19.319 --> 03:59:25.120 which implies those are second order statements. So typically the 4063 03:59:25.200 --> 03:59:28.520 first order is just being in the mental state of 4064 03:59:28.920 --> 03:59:29.600 knowing something. 4065 03:59:30.159 --> 03:59:33.440 Does that make sense? Right? 4066 03:59:33.559 --> 03:59:39.879 First order is a knowledge claim, right, Yeah. 4067 03:59:39.719 --> 03:59:42.959 But I want to make the difference that it's really 4068 03:59:43.120 --> 03:59:49.559 statements are usually it's a second order beliefs that you 4069 03:59:49.680 --> 03:59:52.479 believe something and it qualifies as knowledge as a first order. 4070 03:59:52.520 --> 03:59:55.959 Does that make sense? So not your statement about what 4071 03:59:56.120 --> 03:59:58.440 you believe? Those are second order? 4072 04:00:00.000 --> 04:00:01.639 Okay, Okay, I didn't. 4073 04:00:01.799 --> 04:00:03.360 I didn't get that, but. 4074 04:00:03.440 --> 04:00:09.319 I would add, yes, it does entail contradiction because once 4075 04:00:09.399 --> 04:00:13.760 you prove that God's a necessary condition uniquely, so the 4076 04:00:13.840 --> 04:00:19.000 possibility of knowledge. They already assume the a necessary condition 4077 04:00:19.959 --> 04:00:23.600 for the possibility knowledge because they're making knowledge statements. Then 4078 04:00:23.639 --> 04:00:27.920 you show that it's God, but they deny God. So 4079 04:00:28.000 --> 04:00:30.879 they're both affirming and denying the necessary condition for the 4080 04:00:30.920 --> 04:00:32.559 possibility knowledge, which is a contradiction. 4081 04:00:36.079 --> 04:00:37.799 Correct. Yeah, that's that makes sense. 4082 04:00:41.040 --> 04:00:43.000 All right, thank you job. I want to go on 4083 04:00:43.239 --> 04:00:45.399 next to Isaiah. What's up? 4084 04:00:46.639 --> 04:00:46.799 Hey? 4085 04:00:46.959 --> 04:00:49.200 Can you assume me? Yes, ma'am? 4086 04:00:49.840 --> 04:00:50.200 All right. 4087 04:00:50.920 --> 04:00:54.159 So I'm new here and lovely rooms. 4088 04:00:54.639 --> 04:00:55.360 Hello everyone. 4089 04:00:56.000 --> 04:00:58.159 So I had two things I'll try to be quick. 4090 04:00:58.840 --> 04:01:02.600 The first, so the father was speaking about the freshmen 4091 04:01:02.719 --> 04:01:06.399 being hesitant. I guess you'd say, to deal with a 4092 04:01:06.479 --> 04:01:10.959 quinas and have those arguments. And I had the same 4093 04:01:11.040 --> 04:01:13.680 experience myself when I was a freshman dealing with a quinas. 4094 04:01:14.200 --> 04:01:18.239 And we were given an exercise which was interesting, where 4095 04:01:18.280 --> 04:01:20.879 we all came up with our own arguments, and then 4096 04:01:21.479 --> 04:01:24.239 the room was split to where half of us steelmanned, 4097 04:01:24.319 --> 04:01:26.760 and then half of us would argue against it, and 4098 04:01:26.879 --> 04:01:30.079 it took away like the fear of dealing with such 4099 04:01:30.120 --> 04:01:33.159 a seminal work. And then after that no one was 4100 04:01:33.239 --> 04:01:36.000 like deer in the headlights anymore, so maybe helpful, I 4101 04:01:36.040 --> 04:01:40.440 don't know, but yeah, so just the thought and then yeah, 4102 04:01:40.559 --> 04:01:44.280 in terms of you mentioned ex of Jesus, and my 4103 04:01:45.440 --> 04:01:48.120 question for you gentlemen, as you seem to be well 4104 04:01:48.239 --> 04:01:52.360 versed on the Greek and I've just begun getting into Greek, 4105 04:01:52.760 --> 04:01:56.399 what do you guys think are the most interesting or relevant. 4106 04:01:58.120 --> 04:02:02.079 I don't want to say mistranslations, but mistranslations where like 4107 04:02:02.440 --> 04:02:06.440 things don't translate exactly into English that kind of stick 4108 04:02:06.479 --> 04:02:06.719 out to you. 4109 04:02:10.719 --> 04:02:13.879 I'm not a linguist and I'm not a Greek scholar, 4110 04:02:14.200 --> 04:02:17.239 not a textual scholar, so I'm not familiar really with 4111 04:02:18.079 --> 04:02:22.000 textual issues in translating certain terms. I mean, I know 4112 04:02:22.120 --> 04:02:24.639 that does exist, but I don't think it really is 4113 04:02:25.600 --> 04:02:28.920 detrimental to the overall message. I think God is able 4114 04:02:29.000 --> 04:02:32.680 to communicate in every language the basics of the message. 4115 04:02:33.280 --> 04:02:35.719 But there are certain languages like Greek, for example, that 4116 04:02:35.920 --> 04:02:41.399 allow for philosophical metaphysical distinctions that languages like Latin don't have. 4117 04:02:42.120 --> 04:02:47.040 Doctor Bradshaw, for example, argues that the essence entergiesstinction did 4118 04:02:47.079 --> 04:02:50.159 it make sense even in the Latin language, whereas in 4119 04:02:50.319 --> 04:02:51.840 Greek theology and philosophy. 4120 04:02:51.920 --> 04:02:52.920 It made perfect sense. 4121 04:02:52.959 --> 04:02:54.760 And so that's one of the reasons why the Western 4122 04:02:55.639 --> 04:02:59.319 Latin Church fathers did not develop in the sense of 4123 04:02:59.399 --> 04:03:02.760 explication being the center distinction that theology that the Eastern 4124 04:03:02.840 --> 04:03:06.559 Church did. But I'm not a linguist and a scholar 4125 04:03:06.680 --> 04:03:07.920 of texts. 4126 04:03:12.000 --> 04:03:14.399 Okay, Yeah, I was just curious. Again, I've heard you 4127 04:03:15.159 --> 04:03:18.360 speak of a few Greek phrases in your knowledge of them. 4128 04:03:19.239 --> 04:03:22.440 You know, like the word sin, for example, is like 4129 04:03:22.559 --> 04:03:25.479 the actual verb to sin is you know, it means 4130 04:03:25.520 --> 04:03:28.120 to throw a spear and miss the target, and like 4131 04:03:28.239 --> 04:03:30.959 that is a big difference, you know, just in the 4132 04:03:31.079 --> 04:03:34.520 actual meaning. And so I think I think you're correct, 4133 04:03:34.559 --> 04:03:38.120 and you know, the the application of the metaphor is 4134 04:03:38.319 --> 04:03:41.959 obviously the same. But yeah, I was just scurious. Thanks 4135 04:03:42.280 --> 04:03:43.319 thanks for letting me speak. 4136 04:03:44.319 --> 04:03:44.559 Sure. 4137 04:03:44.799 --> 04:03:48.600 I mean, a lot of the Orthodox world uses a 4138 04:03:48.639 --> 04:03:52.280 lot of terminology from the heritage of the Church and 4139 04:03:53.200 --> 04:03:55.879 from the New Testament, but I don't know the Greek. 4140 04:03:56.520 --> 04:03:59.239 I know the Greek alphabet, and I know a lot 4141 04:03:59.280 --> 04:04:03.000 of the theology terms and their usage of meaning, but 4142 04:04:03.120 --> 04:04:05.159 I do not know uh. 4143 04:04:06.360 --> 04:04:11.079 E elect elect electorum, I Q. 4144 04:04:19.399 --> 04:04:19.959 Are you there? 4145 04:04:29.200 --> 04:04:32.040 Illustrationist yep, and that's me. 4146 04:04:34.280 --> 04:04:34.840 I had. 4147 04:04:35.079 --> 04:04:38.319 Let's see, at first, I had a few questions about predestination, 4148 04:04:38.600 --> 04:04:44.200 but I think the orthodox understanding of predestination is pretty straightforward. Actually, 4149 04:04:44.239 --> 04:04:47.680 you know what, I'd need some clarification because I've always 4150 04:04:47.719 --> 04:04:51.639 had a Calvinist predisposition. So what would your the orthodox 4151 04:04:51.760 --> 04:04:53.760 understanding of predestination be. 4152 04:04:54.920 --> 04:04:58.840 Alright, so we already addressed this pretty extensively in the 4153 04:04:58.959 --> 04:05:01.520 first I don't know hour, so I would just say, 4154 04:05:01.639 --> 04:05:04.319 this is a recorded space, so you can go back 4155 04:05:04.399 --> 04:05:05.399 and rewatch that. 4156 04:05:05.520 --> 04:05:07.719 I don't have the energy to rehearse all that. Do 4157 04:05:07.760 --> 04:05:09.399 you have another question, Yeah? 4158 04:05:09.479 --> 04:05:09.719 Sure. 4159 04:05:11.399 --> 04:05:14.879 My other question would be about essence energy distinction. I 4160 04:05:15.360 --> 04:05:18.840 saw a clip of you being interviewed by Michael Lofton 4161 04:05:19.360 --> 04:05:21.799 and you said something to the extent of the essence 4162 04:05:21.840 --> 04:05:24.159 of God subsists within his energies. 4163 04:05:26.000 --> 04:05:28.360 What's that all about? I didn't. 4164 04:05:28.680 --> 04:05:32.040 Yeah, so the energies proceed from the essence, I said. 4165 04:05:32.079 --> 04:05:37.399 God is fully present in his energies because his actions. 4166 04:05:37.520 --> 04:05:39.639 So just like if I build a. 4167 04:05:39.719 --> 04:05:44.440 House, I'm fully present in my action of building a house. 4168 04:05:45.000 --> 04:05:47.799 The action of building a house is an action proper 4169 04:05:47.920 --> 04:05:51.120 to my nature as a human being. It's a human act. 4170 04:05:51.799 --> 04:05:55.239 It's an act by my will. But my will and 4171 04:05:55.440 --> 04:05:58.479 my act of building a house are not identical to 4172 04:05:58.920 --> 04:06:03.440 or reducible to the person Jay nor my nature. So 4173 04:06:03.639 --> 04:06:07.680 the action proceeds from my nature, but it's a personal 4174 04:06:07.840 --> 04:06:10.280 act that I engage in in terms of the mode. 4175 04:06:10.879 --> 04:06:13.559 So does that make sense that the person, the nature, 4176 04:06:13.799 --> 04:06:17.280 the will, the energy, and the effect are all distinct? 4177 04:06:17.799 --> 04:06:20.440 And if you read John of Damascus on the Orthodox 4178 04:06:20.479 --> 04:06:23.600 Faith Book three, chapter fifteen, the very first thing he 4179 04:06:23.680 --> 04:06:27.399 says is nature, person, will, energy and effect are all distinct. 4180 04:06:28.079 --> 04:06:29.399 Literally the opposite of chemism. 4181 04:06:30.879 --> 04:06:31.159 Got it? 4182 04:06:31.559 --> 04:06:34.239 And one last thing, I know there are a lot 4183 04:06:34.239 --> 04:06:36.159 of Protestants out there, and with the Internet, a lot 4184 04:06:36.200 --> 04:06:38.479 of people are looking towards the Apostolic faith. 4185 04:06:39.239 --> 04:06:42.159 Do you have any advice for anyone who's. 4186 04:06:44.959 --> 04:06:46.000 I'll be blunt. 4187 04:06:47.399 --> 04:06:51.159 I'm kind of attending a church that doesn't believe that 4188 04:06:51.600 --> 04:06:55.079 the Communion is the real body and blood of Jesus, 4189 04:06:55.159 --> 04:06:57.959 and I've had doubts about that, and as a result, 4190 04:06:58.120 --> 04:07:03.159 i haven't been partaking of the symbolic Communion, and frankly, 4191 04:07:03.319 --> 04:07:05.680 I don't know how to put my faith into practice. 4192 04:07:06.000 --> 04:07:10.520 I'm kind of in this gray zone. Any advice to 4193 04:07:10.719 --> 04:07:13.840 the Orthodox Church is only true church, so where you're 4194 04:07:13.879 --> 04:07:17.920 at not a church. That's my advice. All right, appreciate it, 4195 04:07:18.079 --> 04:07:22.760 thank you. Yeah, I would go check, you. 4196 04:07:22.799 --> 04:07:25.920 Know, go visit Orthodox church and you will see that, 4197 04:07:26.959 --> 04:07:32.239 you know, the liturgy at least is reverent and organized 4198 04:07:32.559 --> 04:07:34.559 such that they believe that it is. 4199 04:07:34.600 --> 04:07:36.639 The real presidence, or at least that's the profession of 4200 04:07:36.719 --> 04:07:37.399 the faith. 4201 04:07:39.920 --> 04:07:44.159 Hence the reverence and the beauty there, which does not 4202 04:07:44.280 --> 04:07:45.520 exist in the Protestant world. 4203 04:07:46.399 --> 04:07:57.840 Actually, jam, yeah, hey, is it all right to ask 4204 04:07:57.920 --> 04:08:00.760 a question about the Divine Light and Saint Simeon the 4205 04:08:00.799 --> 04:08:01.520 New Theologian. 4206 04:08:03.399 --> 04:08:05.600 I've read two of the volumes. I haven't read all four, 4207 04:08:05.719 --> 04:08:06.920 but I can comment on. 4208 04:08:06.959 --> 04:08:12.319 What I know, Alrighty, So I was reading. I wasn't 4209 04:08:12.360 --> 04:08:16.559 actually reading Saint Simeon. I planned to do that later, 4210 04:08:16.719 --> 04:08:20.799 but I came across a quotation that where he seemed 4211 04:08:20.799 --> 04:08:24.239 to be saying that unless one has seen the Divine Light, 4212 04:08:24.399 --> 04:08:27.239 he can't presume to think that he knows Christ, or 4213 04:08:27.319 --> 04:08:31.079 that he has Christ within him, or that he will 4214 04:08:31.159 --> 04:08:36.920 be saved. And so this was concerning because I don't 4215 04:08:36.920 --> 04:08:39.719 think anyone I know has ever seen the Divine Light, 4216 04:08:40.079 --> 04:08:43.920 nor could I imagine myself becoming holy enough to actually 4217 04:08:43.959 --> 04:08:47.319 receive the physical, sensory perception of the divine light. 4218 04:08:50.159 --> 04:08:50.760 Yeah, I think that. 4219 04:08:52.200 --> 04:08:55.840 I mean, I need to say the contact, because first 4220 04:08:55.879 --> 04:08:59.600 of all, he was thrown out of his monastery because 4221 04:08:59.680 --> 04:09:03.680 he said that this was available to everyone, and then 4222 04:09:03.959 --> 04:09:06.760 that it was not a thing that was only for 4223 04:09:06.879 --> 04:09:09.959 a chiritual elite. So this doesn't this would this would 4224 04:09:09.959 --> 04:09:14.719 seem to contrast with his arguments because he argued that 4225 04:09:15.440 --> 04:09:18.479 if you argue that the the parlemism was for a 4226 04:09:18.559 --> 04:09:21.680 spiritual elite, he said it was a return of the 4227 04:09:21.719 --> 04:09:26.520 heresy of the missallions. So the comment sounds like it 4228 04:09:26.559 --> 04:09:28.559 would be contrary to the very thing that he dealt 4229 04:09:28.600 --> 04:09:32.239 with in his life, and he seems to speak otherwise 4230 04:09:32.440 --> 04:09:35.479 in the in the books. But and there also might 4231 04:09:35.520 --> 04:09:38.959 be a situation where he's saying that something like, well, 4232 04:09:39.040 --> 04:09:42.280 if you think you have assurance of your salvation, you 4233 04:09:42.280 --> 04:09:43.959 would only be assured of that if you've seen the 4234 04:09:44.000 --> 04:09:44.559 divine light. 4235 04:09:44.719 --> 04:09:47.399 And you know hardly anybody has seen the divine light. 4236 04:09:48.000 --> 04:09:49.680 And so I would need to I would need to 4237 04:09:49.840 --> 04:09:50.120 see the. 4238 04:09:50.159 --> 04:09:52.079 Context to see like what he's saying, because it doesn't 4239 04:09:52.120 --> 04:09:55.719 sound like because I mean he he railed against Missallianism, 4240 04:09:55.840 --> 04:09:57.520 and what you're saying sounds like Missallianism. 4241 04:09:58.639 --> 04:10:01.200 Okay, okay, yeah, I I need to get him and 4242 04:10:01.280 --> 04:10:03.920 read some more of him, but thank you, and I'll 4243 04:10:03.959 --> 04:10:04.479 probably come. 4244 04:10:04.440 --> 04:10:05.559 Back after i've read something. 4245 04:10:06.120 --> 04:10:07.319 Do you know where that quote is? 4246 04:10:08.760 --> 04:10:10.799 If I'm not mistaken, I think it might have been 4247 04:10:11.120 --> 04:10:19.159 in the Saint Vladimir's publish publishing of the of his 4248 04:10:19.440 --> 04:10:20.399 h Now that's the that's. 4249 04:10:20.319 --> 04:10:21.959 The four volumes. But do you know which are the 4250 04:10:22.040 --> 04:10:22.639 four volumes? 4251 04:10:23.799 --> 04:10:23.879 Now? 4252 04:10:23.879 --> 04:10:25.399 I'm gonna have to read it because I came across 4253 04:10:25.440 --> 04:10:26.840 it all nine but I don't have the money to 4254 04:10:26.879 --> 04:10:27.440 buy it right now. 4255 04:10:27.479 --> 04:10:29.159 But once I do, I'm gonna give it a read. 4256 04:10:30.520 --> 04:10:32.799 Okay, Well, DM me about it, because I'd be curious 4257 04:10:32.840 --> 04:10:34.760 to go and look it up. But like I said, 4258 04:10:34.760 --> 04:10:36.239 I only have two of the four volumes. I ever 4259 04:10:36.280 --> 04:10:36.680 read them all? 4260 04:10:37.680 --> 04:10:39.120 Alrighty, sure thing, I'll get back with you. 4261 04:10:43.319 --> 04:10:46.280 I mean, And also, I might just not know what 4262 04:10:46.399 --> 04:10:49.159 he's talking about, so I know some of you might 4263 04:10:49.920 --> 04:10:51.920 doubt this, but like I've not read all the books. 4264 04:10:52.120 --> 04:10:53.920 So what's up, Brian? 4265 04:10:55.479 --> 04:10:55.559 Up? 4266 04:10:55.600 --> 04:10:56.000 What up? 4267 04:10:56.360 --> 04:10:57.079 Just real quick? 4268 04:10:57.440 --> 04:11:03.280 I just wanted to add something regarding the communion. Jesus 4269 04:11:03.360 --> 04:11:05.959 said very clearly in the Bible, if you read in 4270 04:11:06.040 --> 04:11:07.319 the King James. 4271 04:11:08.479 --> 04:11:10.200 Or the older versions. 4272 04:11:10.280 --> 04:11:15.600 On top of that, that you're to receive food and 4273 04:11:15.840 --> 04:11:19.799 water and wine, and I guess beer and other things. 4274 04:11:20.399 --> 04:11:23.680 With Thanksgiving supposed to pray over your food. You're supposed 4275 04:11:23.680 --> 04:11:27.879 to pray over your water. My kids they pray over 4276 04:11:28.920 --> 04:11:34.639 you know, certain law enforcement officials or politicians, or kids 4277 04:11:34.879 --> 04:11:39.680 or teachers in their lives, and they earnestly and honestly 4278 04:11:40.840 --> 04:11:44.399 before they receive their food or their drink, you know, 4279 04:11:44.520 --> 04:11:46.520 they put blessings on it. 4280 04:11:46.959 --> 04:11:49.680 And I think that's what communion it really is about. 4281 04:11:51.840 --> 04:11:57.040 I am a Protestant, but I'm a non church going Protestant. 4282 04:11:57.680 --> 04:12:01.399 I used to be in Christian ministry very college, and 4283 04:12:01.520 --> 04:12:05.600 I realized real quick how corrupt these buildings are. So yeah, 4284 04:12:05.799 --> 04:12:08.559 pray over your food, thank you for your time, appreciate 4285 04:12:08.600 --> 04:12:08.920 you guys. 4286 04:12:12.399 --> 04:12:14.440 Well, I think it's way more than that, because it's 4287 04:12:14.639 --> 04:12:18.319 the institution of the Lord's Supper. Even in Paul's epistles, 4288 04:12:18.920 --> 04:12:22.079 it's more than merely praying over food. If you read 4289 04:12:22.239 --> 04:12:26.200 the Book of Hebrews, it's the fulfillment of the Old Testament, 4290 04:12:26.360 --> 04:12:30.559 alter and temple sacrifice, and Paul says in Hebrews thirteen 4291 04:12:30.680 --> 04:12:33.840 that we have an altar from which the people who 4292 04:12:33.920 --> 04:12:35.120 serve at the tabernacle have. 4293 04:12:35.159 --> 04:12:36.000 No right to eat. 4294 04:12:36.680 --> 04:12:40.360 So right away you have a sacrificial element. You have 4295 04:12:40.680 --> 04:12:45.000 a ministerial element of the Melchizedekian priesthood from Hebrews seven, 4296 04:12:45.760 --> 04:12:51.040 all of which suggests that this low church idea of Protestantism, 4297 04:12:51.120 --> 04:12:54.479 that it's some mere meal, misses the whole point of 4298 04:12:54.600 --> 04:12:59.280 what was established, which is a feast that deifies us. 4299 04:13:01.079 --> 04:13:01.879 A wolf. 4300 04:13:08.079 --> 04:13:08.280 God. 4301 04:13:08.360 --> 04:13:17.000 I'm you, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I wanted 4302 04:13:17.079 --> 04:13:19.920 to talk about atheism. I'm not an atheist, but I 4303 04:13:20.040 --> 04:13:23.440 think atheists are kind of weak with their arguments, and 4304 04:13:23.559 --> 04:13:25.920 I kind of want to help them because they don't 4305 04:13:26.000 --> 04:13:29.040 seem to want to tell the truth about being an atheist. 4306 04:13:29.760 --> 04:13:32.920 Let's say I was an atheist and I wanted to, 4307 04:13:33.239 --> 04:13:37.040 you know, little mind exercise. Why would I even care 4308 04:13:37.079 --> 04:13:41.520 about anybody's morals? Why would I just not care about 4309 04:13:41.719 --> 04:13:45.559 just planning my seat and my children and then letting 4310 04:13:45.680 --> 04:13:47.920 them take off and do whatever they're going to do 4311 04:13:48.040 --> 04:13:51.840 and make sure that they live to take over. It's 4312 04:13:51.959 --> 04:13:55.680 like murder, rape or whatever. It seems like they don't 4313 04:13:55.760 --> 04:13:57.559 have the guts to admit the truth. 4314 04:13:58.760 --> 04:13:58.959 Yeah. 4315 04:13:59.000 --> 04:14:00.719 I think that's actually a very for set the point 4316 04:14:00.719 --> 04:14:07.639 about atheists that atheism is a intellectual pretended position, but 4317 04:14:07.680 --> 04:14:09.719 they don't really usually live it out. 4318 04:14:11.360 --> 04:14:13.520 Yeah, not to say that I feel that way, but 4319 04:14:13.639 --> 04:14:17.440 I just can't understand if I did, I can't understand 4320 04:14:17.520 --> 04:14:20.959 why they wouldn't just tell the truth like the books 4321 04:14:21.079 --> 04:14:24.280 done and stuff. I would want to guarantee my seed 4322 04:14:24.479 --> 04:14:26.719 rules the world, you know, if if I. 4323 04:14:26.840 --> 04:14:32.239 Had exactly wandven what's up, Caleb? 4324 04:14:37.840 --> 04:14:40.200 Oh, sorry, I've this is the first time I've done this. 4325 04:14:40.520 --> 04:14:44.600 I was muted, so I am Pentecostal. I even went 4326 04:14:44.639 --> 04:14:48.360 to Bible College for a little bit, but I found 4327 04:14:48.399 --> 04:14:52.559 it to be very disorderly. And I've been interested in 4328 04:14:52.719 --> 04:14:57.200 Orthodoxy for a long time because everything seems to be 4329 04:14:58.120 --> 04:15:00.319 pretty ordered out on what we need to do for 4330 04:15:00.440 --> 04:15:01.399 every specific thing. 4331 04:15:02.079 --> 04:15:03.280 And I went to a. 4332 04:15:04.000 --> 04:15:09.120 Orthodox church in my town recently, just a couple months back, 4333 04:15:09.200 --> 04:15:13.879 to see how things were. And I'm not exactly a 4334 04:15:14.000 --> 04:15:17.440 total iconoclast, but I was. I was a little bit like, WHOA, 4335 04:15:17.600 --> 04:15:21.159 this is real different. But none of that is exactly 4336 04:15:21.239 --> 04:15:27.520 why I was confused. I just talked to a priest 4337 04:15:27.600 --> 04:15:29.760 in training. I don't know if his official title was 4338 04:15:29.799 --> 04:15:32.520 a deacon or something like that. I'm not familiar with 4339 04:15:32.559 --> 04:15:35.959 a lot of the language, but he told me, and 4340 04:15:36.040 --> 04:15:38.479 I don't know if this is the official outlook of 4341 04:15:38.559 --> 04:15:43.559 the Orthodox Church, that the Book of Revelation, due to 4342 04:15:43.680 --> 04:15:48.479 some historical issue or something that I don't understand or 4343 04:15:48.559 --> 04:15:53.639 can't remember, isn't treated as total canon. Or maybe it 4344 04:15:53.799 --> 04:15:55.840 was canon and they just don't use it often. I 4345 04:15:56.000 --> 04:15:56.920 just don't remember. 4346 04:15:57.280 --> 04:16:00.440 I just what is that about. I'm not quite sure 4347 04:16:00.479 --> 04:16:01.200 I understand that. 4348 04:16:02.360 --> 04:16:02.399 No. 4349 04:16:02.479 --> 04:16:04.799 I think that's just simply he was just simply incorrect. 4350 04:16:05.760 --> 04:16:08.879 Some of the old, older lists do not list the 4351 04:16:08.920 --> 04:16:11.520 Book of Revelation, and so he might be just looking 4352 04:16:11.559 --> 04:16:15.319 at one of the older lists, to say, from the Canons, 4353 04:16:15.399 --> 04:16:20.239 the Apostolic Canons Canon eighty five, but eventually by the 4354 04:16:21.239 --> 04:16:24.479 the Ecumenical Council, when it lists the canon, it does 4355 04:16:24.559 --> 04:16:27.040 include the Book of Revelation. So some people just look 4356 04:16:27.040 --> 04:16:29.319 at different lists that are older, and I think he 4357 04:16:29.440 --> 04:16:30.280 was just misinformed. 4358 04:16:31.200 --> 04:16:33.239 Okay, well, thanks, I'll go ahead and try it again 4359 04:16:33.280 --> 04:16:36.079 and just see how it is. Because I was very interested. 4360 04:16:36.159 --> 04:16:38.360 I was just real put off because it was like, well, 4361 04:16:38.399 --> 04:16:39.879 if we can't trust the Bible, what are we doing? 4362 04:16:39.959 --> 04:16:40.120 Man? 4363 04:16:40.520 --> 04:16:46.079 I didn't it was yeah, thank you. I don't think 4364 04:16:46.120 --> 04:16:47.920 it's an issue of not trusting the Bible. 4365 04:16:48.040 --> 04:16:50.600 It's just that the Book of Revelation was a very 4366 04:16:51.120 --> 04:16:55.479 hotly debated text for many centuries. If you look on 4367 04:16:55.559 --> 04:16:59.479 my wall right now, you can see the I retweeted 4368 04:16:59.520 --> 04:17:04.959 the Baptist scholar Lee McDonald where he's talking about Athanasians 4369 04:17:05.000 --> 04:17:09.639 having to convinced the bishops in Rome that Revelation was canonical. 4370 04:17:10.239 --> 04:17:13.879 So it has a debated history. But some people might 4371 04:17:14.000 --> 04:17:17.319 just think that the Apostolic canon eighty five, which is 4372 04:17:17.360 --> 04:17:20.079 from about the three hundreds, they might think that that's 4373 04:17:20.159 --> 04:17:24.559 the quote right list, but actually the Ecumenical Council is 4374 04:17:24.639 --> 04:17:28.040 the right list, which later does include Revelation. 4375 04:17:28.360 --> 04:17:31.200 Okay, all right, well, thank you very much. I appreciate 4376 04:17:31.239 --> 04:17:33.920 your time. Thanks again, have a good day. 4377 04:17:36.040 --> 04:17:42.399 Yeah, anytime. Last one, mkg. 4378 04:17:48.799 --> 04:17:52.520 Heja and pray all as well. I had a question 4379 04:17:52.680 --> 04:17:57.200 actually about something you touched on two calls ago regarding 4380 04:17:57.280 --> 04:18:01.959 an counterargument. So when I'm explained the monarchy of the 4381 04:18:02.040 --> 04:18:05.360 Father and essentially saying that the word and the Spirit 4382 04:18:05.559 --> 04:18:08.879 come from him, that is his word, his spirit. What 4383 04:18:09.000 --> 04:18:11.319 do I do when someone accuses me of modalism. 4384 04:18:16.879 --> 04:18:20.319 Well, when you've had early church fathers like Turtullian, and 4385 04:18:20.440 --> 04:18:23.559 I think even the Cappadocians, when they use the analogy 4386 04:18:24.079 --> 04:18:28.360 of word and spirit, it's just an analogy. It's not 4387 04:18:28.680 --> 04:18:33.200 equated to intended to give you, like the full meaning 4388 04:18:33.319 --> 04:18:35.799 of hypostasis and nature. 4389 04:18:36.159 --> 04:18:39.959 So it's like an analogy. So in other words, people 4390 04:18:40.000 --> 04:18:44.040 can read too much into the analogies. That makes sense, Yeah, 4391 04:18:44.079 --> 04:18:45.079 I guess, I just. 4392 04:18:47.000 --> 04:18:49.239 I guess I had a good structure in my mind 4393 04:18:50.159 --> 04:18:52.399 for how to relate to the Trinity, and when I 4394 04:18:52.520 --> 04:18:57.239 explain it, that's the only counter that I'm having a 4395 04:18:57.319 --> 04:18:59.760 hard time justifying. 4396 04:19:03.680 --> 04:19:08.959 Well, I mean even word in spirit though, Like the 4397 04:19:10.280 --> 04:19:13.799 analogy is used to explain how something can be one 4398 04:19:14.040 --> 04:19:16.280 and many at the same time. Right, So I'm a 4399 04:19:16.360 --> 04:19:21.719 person and I have you know, a word that I speak, 4400 04:19:21.799 --> 04:19:24.639 and then there's a breath that accompanies the word, and 4401 04:19:24.760 --> 04:19:29.000 so it's a limited analogy that's intended to explain an 4402 04:19:29.079 --> 04:19:34.360 eternal action of spiration and generation. It's not an analogy 4403 04:19:34.479 --> 04:19:39.239 intended to explain that there's only one person in God 4404 04:19:39.479 --> 04:19:45.040 and that word and spirit are actions, so the analogy 4405 04:19:45.079 --> 04:19:49.159 would be confusing action or energy with person or hypostasis. 4406 04:19:49.879 --> 04:19:52.280 So do you see how these these kinds of analogies 4407 04:19:52.319 --> 04:19:52.920 are very limited? 4408 04:19:52.959 --> 04:19:55.319 Yeah, no, that makes sense that the final point that 4409 04:19:55.399 --> 04:19:58.040 you made that click for me. Can I ask one 4410 04:19:58.079 --> 04:20:04.440 more question? So I'm actually writing a paper and I 4411 04:20:04.600 --> 04:20:08.520 wanted to know if you had some primary sources in 4412 04:20:08.639 --> 04:20:14.559 mind regarding the schism and specifically regarding the whole philioque thing, 4413 04:20:15.280 --> 04:20:19.360 if you knew of any primary sources, not secondary, that 4414 04:20:19.440 --> 04:20:20.159 I could look to. 4415 04:20:23.879 --> 04:20:26.000 I don't know what the primary sources would be, Like 4416 04:20:26.159 --> 04:20:31.159 ancient excommunication documents between Rome and the East. 4417 04:20:31.200 --> 04:20:33.040 What do you mean like of the time you know, 4418 04:20:33.719 --> 04:20:38.159 of the time of the schism basically you know, Father's 4419 04:20:38.200 --> 04:20:40.680 writing about it and their issues with it, and the 4420 04:20:40.760 --> 04:20:44.840 counter arguments of the West. Basically, not a secondary source 4421 04:20:46.000 --> 04:20:47.159 if you had any mind. 4422 04:20:49.600 --> 04:20:50.840 I don't know off the top of my head what 4423 04:20:51.000 --> 04:20:54.440 the primary source would be. I'm sure there's ancient Vatican, 4424 04:20:54.920 --> 04:20:57.280 you know, excommunication documents or something like that. 4425 04:20:58.120 --> 04:20:59.639 All right, well, I appreciate it. 4426 04:21:00.959 --> 04:21:17.319 Yeah, Oh that's it. Thanks, Yeah, it's all good. Yeah, 4427 04:21:18.319 --> 04:21:58.440 what's up? Pedro? You gotta arm youre man? What's up, hey, Pedro? 4428 04:21:58.479 --> 04:22:13.360 You gotta ut man? All right? 4429 04:22:13.360 --> 04:22:16.200 Well, Pedro's not gonna say anything, so I guess we'll 4430 04:22:16.280 --> 04:22:18.639 just call it a night. Thank you, guys, a lot 4431 04:22:18.680 --> 04:22:21.600 of fun, good conversations. I didn't think James White would 4432 04:22:21.600 --> 04:22:22.399 show up, but that's okay. 4433 04:22:22.840 --> 04:22:24.440 Oh here he is just right behind you. Look out, 4434 04:22:26.600 --> 04:22:28.520 he's behind me in person here in New Orleans.