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Speaker 1: S S S S S S S S S S

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S S S S S S S S.

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Speaker 2: S.

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Speaker 3: All right, welcome, hope everybody's sir.

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Speaker 4: I woke up today to some fancy, flashy, sassy new

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drama from the Internet's.

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Speaker 3: Hottest little boats Eie Wearer.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about that predestined as sunny occasionalist, Calvinist Muslim

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man James Watt and his little cute little list that

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he's got. He's just so in a tizzy today. He's

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just sassy today. Something got up under him and got

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him all sassed. I don't know what it is, but

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if we're gonna go to Roman's nine, honey child, he's

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our man. He can exege that perfectly. With that diploma

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meal degree that he got down in South Africa, down

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there with his little Ubungu friends that he's got. I

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wonder what they get up to down there with that

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little lisp. He's got it and there's no telling them.

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Maybe he did it. Maybe he did his diploma, diploma,

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MA degree online. I think they have extension courses up

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there for little James wherever he's located inside of his

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little RV.

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Speaker 3: They might be over here in New Orleans right now.

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Speaker 4: If it's Marti Grauls time, I'm over here, about fifty

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miles outside of New Orleans. I I could just run

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over there and find James if he's over there on

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down in the French quarters. If he's down there, Exaget

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and Romans nine for some of the some of the

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men's over there in the French quarters. But listen, I'll

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tell you one thing, honey, you ain't going to find

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a better cosmusweater anywhere in the damn us than down

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there in that French quarter. Some of them women's down

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there that does the tarot reatings, the tarot cards, Honey,

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Them tarot readers will sew you a Cosby sweater like

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Joseph's technicolor dreamcoat, Honey, out of the doll of the

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Book of Genesis, honey. And that's what James White's all about.

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I hope James Whites will come over here and I

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and just talk to him a little bit. But he's

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got that cute little honey. Have you ever seen that

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little Colonel Sanders.

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Speaker 5: Go to you?

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Speaker 4: He's got And it just makes me think all them

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chickens that Biden had just killed, all one hundred fifty

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billion of them. If I was thinking like James White

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and that Colonel Sanders predestination mindset, they was destined for it, honey,

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all one hundred fifty millions of them. Let's see, maybe

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he'll come in here and tell us about Romans nine.

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Romans nine, I'm just joking, being silly. I'm poisoning the well.

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Oh wait, if I poison the well, it's on Christ.

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Like when James White poisons the well, it's Boomer wisdom.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what he was trying to say.

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Speaker 4: If he doesn't debate a person with a green profile picture, wow,

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those are good reasons. Now, for years, here's the backstory.

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We messaged James White to do debates on.

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Speaker 3: The Essen Center. You've seen Shin on Absolute to my Simplicity,

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Tilly oak Way, all of that stuff.

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Speaker 4: And for years he said, in his little sassy tone,

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I don't know orthodox stuff. I just don't have tons

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of debate I have, and he's just there's just too

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much list thing I've.

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Speaker 3: Got to do.

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Speaker 6: I've got to study the art of the list.

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Speaker 3: And I don't have time to study orthodox stuff.

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Speaker 4: So he had no time for the last six seven years,

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I guess, And now he wants to drive an RV

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to debate me a year out, and what I guess

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I'm supposed to like arrange this. I don't arrange in

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person debates. I mean, I don't mind it. In person debate.

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I've done one with Tim Gordon's brother in that ridiculous

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Baptist pastor I don't remember his name, but that was

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all organized by another podcast to settle that up. So

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it's not that I'm completely opposed to it, but like

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so William Albrech did this where he was like.

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Speaker 3: Oh, debate you, but only.

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Speaker 4: In person six months from now, and it's like, okay,

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so I'm supposed to establish and set up a public

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in person debate for you.

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Speaker 3: I'm not doing all that shit, dude. You can hop

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on a damn live streaming debate.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, all these people usually will debate

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other people on live streams. And I think his like

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scrawling screed today of boomer nonsense was quite amusing, Like

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I'm gonna have fun live streaming about this. So now

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he calls into question my comedic capabilities.

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Speaker 3: Is he even a comedian?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll have you know that I write for one

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of the top comedians out there right now.

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Speaker 3: You may have heard the name Amy Schumer.

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Speaker 6: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Now we're going to open it up today's topics or

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whatever you guys want to talk about. I do not

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think we're really going to get many calvin Is in here,

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but of course Calvinism gets the priority place today for

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discussion topic. So if you'd like to discuss the elements

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of Calvinism, that could include predestination, tulip Calvins, institutes, reform theology, Puritans,

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it could be any of that.

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Speaker 3: But we can also talk about, of course soul, scripturia.

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We can talk about.

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Speaker 4: The history of the church, councils, authority, you know, creeds

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and confessions, church fathers.

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Speaker 3: It's all fair game.

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Speaker 4: Also, anything else related to the history of Protestantism, the

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prosct Church, Classical Reformation, Lutheranism, Baptist theology, whatever, Also Catholicism

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is on the table. If you are a papist, you

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may call in and make your arguments. If you are

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a Muslim, the buddies of the Calvinists, because they believe

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in essentially the Divine decree is the cause of all causes.

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So Muslims are welcome to call in together with their

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about buddy Calvinists and we can have a discussion with

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it as well as the atheists.

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Speaker 3: It's open form today. First up is balance. You have

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time you.

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Speaker 7: So, Jay, I wanted to talk to you about Protestism.

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Speaker 8: Can you hear me?

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Speaker 3: Yep?

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Speaker 7: So I've been looking into Catholicism and Orthodoxy for a

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little while now. I was born and raised in Protestant Church. Well,

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Costolicism never like intrigued me because Swols is gay with

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the Pope god Man. But Orthodoxy always intrigued me. And

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my question is because I'm I've always thought about conditionalism.

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It's being biblical. And my main point is Isaiah. I

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guess chapter sixty six, verses twenty two to twenty four

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referred by Jesus and Mark when he says he sends

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them to the outer room of darkness where the national

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teeth and they become objects of content and their corpses

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refer to Isaiah. So how is that like not like

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them dying in hell? If that's where they go and

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they're they become coarse corpses.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't hear what you were saying. Conditionalism? What

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is that?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's basically now where people do you know die

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in hell? Annihilism they call it.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about annihilationism not not yet, my bad, Yeah,

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I mean, the Bible doesn't teach annihilationism. It teaches that

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both the body and the soul are joined together in

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the resurrection for all eternity, and that's based on the

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work of Christ. So in One Tear the fifteen Paul

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makes it very clear that your resurrection, whoever you are,

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is contingent upon Christ's resurrection and defeating death. But that

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doesn't mean that you're going to have.

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Speaker 4: Necessarily a good experience of the escaton if you're wicked.

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The wicked have ever being, but they have ever ill being.

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The righteous have ever being as well, but they have

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ever well being.

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Speaker 7: All right, that makes sense. I just when you look

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at like mark and stuff. When Jesus talking about like

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them can turn in the outer of darkness and the

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national teeth, he says, it's going to be where the

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fire doesn't quench and where the worm doesn't die. And

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in Isaiah that's where like there are objects of contempt

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and their corpses.

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Speaker 4: I understand that, but the language is intending to discuss

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a spiritual state. It's not literally saying that they have

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a worm because the worm, according to the Church Fathers, typically

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is the pangs of conscience. So they're tormented by their

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conscience for what they did and what they didn't do

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in life, they didn't repent, et cetera. But the fire

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there is it's not everlasting darkness if it's literal fire, right,

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So it's the descriptions of separation from the goodness of God,

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not separation from the presence of God. And that's why

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in the Orthodox of you, the divine energy that is

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the river of life is the same divine energy that

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is the lake of fire. It's just contingent upon the

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mode of being of each individual person as to how

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that's experienced in the afterlife. So if you lived unrighteously

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and not according to Christ in this life, you're still

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going to get resurrected on the basis of Christ, and

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you're still going to experience God and the Eskaton, but

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you're going to experience the divine energies as the thing

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that torments you because you hated God.

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Speaker 7: All right, Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I wasn't trying to like make a correlation of it

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being dark. I know it wasn't being literal obviously, because

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of the flames. But the analogy whatever you were saying

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with the warm that makes sense. I never heard anyone

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say that, And trying to like research and see what

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other people's thoughts were.

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Speaker 4: All thees Gaton Paul says that in One Green Is fifteen,

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God becomes all and in all and the extent of

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the resurrection. The scope of the resurrection in First Green

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Is fifteen is just as expansive and universal as the

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scope of Adams Fall. So that means that everyone, even

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tiny mustache man like, the only basis for him to be.

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Speaker 3: Resurrection resurrected is the worst of Christ.

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Speaker 4: So this also, by the way, we're fu's Calvinism, because

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Calvinism never really understands or explains why the wicked or

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resurrected or the reprobate would be resurrected because they have

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no connection to Christ. And so Calvinists just have to

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say stuff like, well, God just arbitrarily creates a hell

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body for them, Padre Pio, why'd you run away? I'm

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about to bring up a Roman Catholic and you literally

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just drop out. So it's funny, like, and people love

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to just talk Tomac on Twitter all day long. James

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White wants to schedule a debate on topics that are

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not the topics that I asked them debate for many years,

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totally different topics, and then but he can't hop on

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his face and have this discussion. So yeah, it's just

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really like another thing that people don't know maybe about

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Calvinist is I was in that world when I was young,

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and Calvinists really like their whole thing. They thrive on

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being recognized and being seen as scholars and intellectuals, like

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that's the whole religion. It's a it's a kind of

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a it's like just a biblical almost Talmudic version of

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what you know, papal scholastic people want to be right,

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Scholastic nerds have a lot more philosophy. But both the

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Calvinists scholastic want to be and the papal scholastic tomist

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want to be they're really just worshiping intellect.

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Speaker 3: The whole religion is about intellect.

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Speaker 4: And being perceived as intellectual and known as intellectual and

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given the validation of being an intellectual through debate. So

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one of the things that I've learned over the years

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that is very important is Calvinists do not at all

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enjoy being mocked or made fun of because they take

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themselves very seriously. And of course everyone could see that

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in all the silly shit that he's posted today, James White,

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it's all like, really, like this man, there's not a.

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Speaker 3: Scholar.

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Speaker 4: He's got a green of photo of himself and he's

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got a photo of weird background images. The background images,

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for those that don't know, has a bunch of fascinating

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lore in it that my buddy and good friend Mark Rowe,

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who is a very well known documentary filmmaker and a cinematographer,

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just made as a joke. So like a lot of

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the stuff, people don't even know what the jokes are.

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They don't get it, but that's to be expected. I mean,

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it's just like you know, the humor of Sam Hyde,

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nobody over age, I don't know, fifty maybe even forty five,

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I don't know, Like they don't typically care or get

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that kind of humor like that.

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Speaker 3: That's the generation gap.

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Speaker 4: So although technically James White's probably gen X, I mean,

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the whole mindset, the whole ethos here is just like

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one hundred percent boomer for sure. But the point being

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is like, now, of course he's not gonna they're not

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gonna grasp or get like, well, what all we're talking about?

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What we're about over here? But also like it's important

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not to validate.

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Speaker 3: Quote unquote these people's like perception of being quote a scholar.

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You notice I don't care about that. I gave up.

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I could care less about that shit. I used to

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care about.

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Speaker 4: That, especially when I was a Roman Catholic Thomas. You know,

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when I went from Calvinist to Thomas, I was very

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interested in academia, very interesting getting my degree. I want

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to be seen as, oh, I'm a scholar. And then

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once I realized that all that shits retarded and the

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people in these movements are actually just retarded, and that

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I actually I would respect a person who could actually

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like a guy who actually go out and punch somebody

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in the face and have a fight way better than

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I would respect any of these so called pastors. I mean,

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what did we just see yesterday. One of the biggest

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megachurch pastors is basically Reverend Tuttle from true detective like

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the literal pedo, like raping kids, you know, Protestant Evangelical

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megachurch pastor. So I mean, what does that tell you like,

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these people are just like literal trash and scum, and

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they want to be seen as like these super intellectuals.

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They're not even worth anybody's time. And by the way,

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the rest of the Calvinists on the Twitter spaces are

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complete trash too, the ones that fake that their wives

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are submissive prairie muffins. That other guy the other day,

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I think he was a Calvinist that was a fake

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saying he was logging in and tweeting at this fake

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wife account like.

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Speaker 3: That she was submissive.

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Speaker 4: And then you got Joel Webbin over here, who's like, uh,

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basically wants to be a Salafie Muslim as a Calvinist.

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All these Calvinists just need to go be freaking Muslims.

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They need to be they need to be Salafie well Hobby,

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they need to go be buddies with Jake and Daniel

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Hikikachu because that's where they'd fit in. Jamie said, Joel

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Webbin believes in Mermaids unironically, which is.

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Speaker 3: Kind of funny. And now a bunch of the audience

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are going to be.

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Speaker 4: Like, oh, actually I like Joel Webbin though, because there's

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probably a lot of other mrmaid appreciators in this chat,

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there's a lot of there's a lot of people with

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their crushes on Ariel over here. But didn't you know

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Ariel from Little Mermaid is actually a Jewish plot because

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Ariel is the name for Israel.

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Speaker 3: I'm just joking as a joke, and.

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Speaker 4: I would I'd like to remind you all again I

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am one of the top comedy writers.

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Speaker 3: Now I did finagle my way into that position.

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Speaker 4: James White's questioning my comedic skill sets.

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Speaker 3: I'll have you all know I am the.

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Speaker 4: Top comedy writer for somebody you might have heard of,

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Brendan Shaub.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Anybody else wants to come on to the chat. If

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you hit request to speak, I'll bring you up. You

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can ask questions in regard to Calvinism all the way.

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Speaker 3: James White's actually.

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Speaker 4: A ridiculous radical proponent of stupid ads. So I want

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to debate him about that. Actually initially, and we were

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going to talk about Philly Oakuay and all that stuff,

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and he said multiple times over the years, I don't

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debate orthodox stuff because I don't have time for it.

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So he just sort of dismissed it.

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Speaker 3: And then I asked again about that sinceni.

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Speaker 4: In distinction, And then we asked Jeff Durbin when back

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when Durbin was like in the circles or adjacent to

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James White was saying at one point, oh, you know,

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I don't really have time go out go tobate James Derbin.

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So Durbin said, if you would like to debate me,

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there's a good in line You're it's at least one

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year out. And I'm just like, how, like, how much

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first of all, how much prep do you actually need

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if you're a damn Calvinist, Like you can't just defend

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your position on the spot, Like, how much more prep

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do you actually need if you've been at Calvinist for

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freaking twenty thirty years? I mean when I was a Calvinist,

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like a defendant on the spot, and pretty much really

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any position, like if it's a really difficult issue, like

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let's say we wanted to have a debate with a

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Roman Catholic on We're going to debate, you know, the

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geopolitical power of the papacy, which I keep trying to

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get Roman Catholics to do, and none the will do it.

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Like I would understand somebody requesting time for that because

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that's a difficult nuance, a lot of time and effort.

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But like if you're a Calvinist, like we all know too,

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we all know predestination, we all know you know institutes,

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we all know Westminster Confession.

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Speaker 3: Like how much real prep you actually need on Ross?

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Speaker 10: Yeah?

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Speaker 11: Yeah, it's up, Yeah yeah yeah, I say, said, I

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am here, so I wanted to speak with you. I

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have a friend with the Roman Catholic I am Ortodox,

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and I watched your video on iconography on the seventeen

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you Manical Concil, and he raped the objection that viality

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matter in which style is the icon.

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Speaker 3: So I can't understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 4: You watched the video I did on the seventh Ecmmenical Council,

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and we've done about four of those, so I'm not

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sure what.

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Speaker 11: Recent one on iconography where you argued that the current style,

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like in the fifteenth century the Roman Catholics used is incorrect.

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Speaker 10: And I read.

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Speaker 11: The seventh Ecumenical councils canons and I couldn't find anything

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about that that.

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Speaker 3: I already addressed that.

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Speaker 4: So the seventh Ecumenical Council has multiple canons that do

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address icons, and then one hundred years later almost in

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the eight forty three Council, it's called the Triumph of

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Orthodoxy where they create the Sonoticon and they restate all

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of the canons and the victory or ecume me the

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principles of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So the Sonoticon is

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a summary of the Seventh Ecumenical Council and.

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Speaker 3: Includes all those principles. So just look up the full

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Sonoticon of Orthodoxy which includes all that.

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Speaker 11: Okay, thank you. But so if it's wrong to use

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a different style of iconography and then.

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Speaker 4: What they use, I mean, I literally address that it

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has nothing to do with styles. If you watch the

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video that you're talking about that I did, that was

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like twenty minutes of a live stream. I literally sat

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in there. That it's not an issue of the style

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of the icon. It's rather an issue in other words,

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artistic style. I mean, you could talk I'll talk to

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any Orthodox iconographer and they'll tell you that they at times,

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you know, utilize their own individual style and creativity. So

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there's room for flexibility there. But the point is that

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there's norms that you don't, for example, paint a bunch

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of boobies and titties and you know, butts and dick

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hanging out like the Vatican has.

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Speaker 3: Like it's obvious. So like what I'm saying isn't even controversial.

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Speaker 4: If you read the Lost Kyalspensky books volume one and two,

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they're not even that long.

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Speaker 3: It just talks about all the same stuff.

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Speaker 10: Okay, yeah, thank you, that's just my quession.

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Speaker 4: All right, Yeah, no good questions. I'mpre sire that all right, Dave,

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what's up, Dave? You don't want to talk?

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Speaker 3: What's going on? And then Dave leaves?

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Speaker 4: So Dave the Muslim didn't want to talk, all right,

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so it's open for him. Any questions regarding Calvinism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism,

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from Catholicism, church history, biblical theology, Islam, Atheism, E request

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00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,359
to speak. I'll bring you up. You can ask a

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question or you can offer an argument. You can listen

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to your reasons why you think X y Z is wrong.

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Just keep it to making arguments. And you know it's

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that other Calvinists too, I forget his name, say awful

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us or something like.

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Speaker 3: He's like you need to do a blog debate with me.

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I don't do debates. That's exactly what Lofton said. Lofton's

386
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like Jay Dieks turned down a debate with me, dog,

387
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,880
and then he doesn't tell you that the debate offer

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was a blog debate. Like, dude, this is twenty twenty five,

389
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broh Ain't nobody blog except maybe like some substack people.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not debating you in an exchange of substacks.

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Speaker 3: Anything I write is going into a stupid book. Dude.

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Speaker 4: I'm not writing for free anymore. It's going in a book.

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So I don't know what what what these people are

394
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that boomers like you want to come debate on Facebook

395
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exchange and like, dude, get the hell out of here,

396
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:45,400
go back to Facebook. Uh, boomer Land, Today's funny because

397
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,440
it's all like boomer shit too like. And I will

398
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never stop making boomer jokes. I'm the damn grandfather of

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boomer jokes. I will proudly tout that as part of

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00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,079
my credit, I wrote a viral article fifteen years ago

401
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making fun of boomers whenever world internet.

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Speaker 3: Back of the day.

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Speaker 4: And I will keep making fun of boomers even when

404
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I'm a freaking nine year old senior citizen man and

405
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the boomers don't exist. I'm still gonna be telling the

406
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youngsters the lore of Boomer bullshit.

407
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Speaker 3: Where'd that guy go? He drops everybody popping on here?

408
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:18,480
Drops off? Where you all at? Come on now now,

409
00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:25,599
Oh now, Uncle Baby Billy's Bible bunkers, Come on now,

410
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:35,799
step up. Somebody got to step up. Oh now, get up, anybody,

411
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:41,000
it's Uncle Baby Billy's Bible bunkers. Step on up and

412
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:45,279
be quizzed. Gets your worldview tested, get your worldview put

413
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in check? All right, we got hasani hey, dudekay.

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Speaker 12: I don't necessarily, I guess it kind of does apply

415
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to the town topics, but I don't have anything that's

416
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like specific to to one of the individual topics. I

417
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just actually I had a question about something regardless. Obviously

418
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I was in the obviously I was the one that

419
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was sent in the super chests last night, and that

420
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little and the thing with hypocrite and me and me

421
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and a couple of dud we were we were really

422
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going back and forth with a couple of guys in

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the in the chat. There were two of them specifically, well,

424
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one that I was going back and forth with like

425
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the entire fucking time. Y'all are alive, Uh, and that

426
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:36,839
that's actually what I wanted to ask about. And there

427
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was some other dude he was he was literally just there.

428
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We figured out he was just there to troll you specifically.

429
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He I don't know who he is, have no clue

430
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,039
where he came from, but that guy fucking hates you.

431
00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:48,200
I don't know who it is, but yeah, he definitely

432
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hates you.

433
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Speaker 3: Okay, Well what was the profile?

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Speaker 12: It was just it was just Joe. It was like

435
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Joe and the last name started with an H. And

436
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he was He's some gnostic, that's the thing he was.

437
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,240
He was being like very very fun. The damn word

438
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,279
the word is escape me. Like we kept on asking

439
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:13,319
questions about about you know, like his views and ship

440
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:13,559
like that.

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Speaker 8: Uh.

442
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Speaker 12: And the only thing he would specify, like, the only

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thing he specified is he tends to lean towards gnostic

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00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:23,960
beliefs about But then he wouldn't and he just he

445
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would literally say about and dot he wouldn't. He would

446
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,400
not specify anything else. It was the weirdest ever.

447
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Speaker 4: But I mean, you can always tell those dudes to

448
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come to the open open forums and have a debate.

449
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,400
So Joe, H, I think it's welcome to come to

450
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b Andrew, what's up?

451
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Speaker 13: I mean, Andrew mute? Andrew unmute if you want to talk?

452
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Speaker 3: No, what go ahead? Are there? Did you turn your

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mind tongue to God? And like? What do people not

454
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:38,119
ever use spaces? Like? Is my space the first space

455
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for every single person? D D? What's up? Matter? Yeah?

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Speaker 14: Hey, how you doing? Been a minute? Have you seen this?

457
00:28:56,319 --> 00:29:01,880
Uh recent article? Candice Owens is reposts it, Jack Posto

458
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is reposting. It's like Reverend Johnny Moore and our good

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00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,720
old guy JP.

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Speaker 3: Uh, I haven't seen this article. Who who is this reverend?

461
00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:14,759
Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Is this the guy that was the pedo?

463
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Speaker 14: Uh No, I'm not I'm not sure. But it's just

464
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this whole concept of the I guess the uptick of

465
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,039
Christ is king. Christ is king being co opted by

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some I guess ethno nationalist types.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't doubt that the establishment has fed and

468
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,319
people trying to do that. But I've not seen this

469
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,079
article and I'm not sure. So you said with our

470
00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:47,079
buddy who JB P like Jordan Peters.

471
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:47,559
Speaker 15: Yeah? Yeah.

472
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 5: Jordan Peterson COT.

473
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: And Jordan Peter Peterson co authored an article about the

474
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,079
co opting of Christ the King dealing with at no

475
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,920
nationalists is ever you're saying.

476
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 14: Yeah, so if you see Jack Poso posted about it,

477
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:11,839
Reverend Johnny Moore and Jordan B. Peterson talking about how

478
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:18,319
anti Semitic movements have hijacked the Christis King and uh,

479
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,400
well they're basically. But I wanted to talk about it

480
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,680
because well, I mean, I think that there's something to it,

481
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,519
and I've I've been struggling.

482
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 5: With that myself.

483
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,599
Speaker 14: A lot of the guys, even in the Orthodox space,

484
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,920
like that Orthodox Luigi like sometimes he's towing that line,

485
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:41,319
you know, And.

486
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,079
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I've I've spoken on this topic like

487
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:48,960
multiple times.

488
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: I did.

489
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: I devoted like the entire week two weeks ago to

490
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,759
this topic. And I don't follow all the Luigi's post

491
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:56,319
so I don't know everything that he said, but I

492
00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:59,440
know that, you know, Luigi was really into Fuentos for

493
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,319
a while and then they fell a scance on one another,

494
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,759
and he was dealing with Groyper's for a long time.

495
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:10,680
So now I don't know about Fuentes himself, but I

496
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,759
wouldn't have I would imagine that there's quite a few,

497
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:17,519
you know, provocateur fed type people absolutely involved in trying

498
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:22,839
to get individuals involved in and stirring up some kind

499
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,720
of movement like that.

500
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: That's fake.

501
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: In fact, I mentioned that to I hypocrite last night.

502
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:30,599
A lot of those people, I think try to link

503
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:35,640
it to Islam, like this is the right wing dudes

504
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,680
that want to link up with Islam. It's like, well, well,

505
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,640
like all, well to see their anti Jew, anti Zionis

506
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,279
so they're all based when Islam is literally the rabbi say,

507
00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:47,079
Islam is the broom of Israel.

508
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: Destroy the Just a lot.

509
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 5: Of h Man glorification.

510
00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:54,279
Speaker 14: I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a quote by mustache

511
00:31:54,279 --> 00:31:57,559
Man himself about oh, we would have preferred the Mohammedan religion.

512
00:31:58,279 --> 00:31:59,599
Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot of.

513
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:04,559
Speaker 14: This, yes, he says, like sissification of of Christendom and

514
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:05,559
and all this kind of stuff.

515
00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:11,079
Speaker 4: And however, it's also true that the people on the

516
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,720
right and some of those spears obviously will not talk

517
00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:21,160
about apac u Zionism and the rabbinical traditions and their methodology.

518
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:21,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true.

519
00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 14: I'm no judas are like you know, if if you

520
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,960
if you make a nuanced critique of all of a sudden,

521
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,039
you're a massade agent.

522
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 5: You know, uh, and and it's.

523
00:32:34,759 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 4: Almost like I've been called that, dude. I've been called

524
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:42,680
that for like years because I'm on the Alex Jones Show.

525
00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:46,119
And then when when I devote an entire week and

526
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:52,039
a half actually to rebindic Judaism, dispensationalism, Zionism, then suddenly, oh,

527
00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:53,160
you're an anti Semitic.

528
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:55,839
Speaker 3: You know. It's like it doesn't matter what you talk about.

529
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:56,720
Dealers do this.

530
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 14: But unfortunately, I think there's this guy that's kind of

531
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,599
a attached at the hip to oh and Shroyer. I

532
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,759
don't I don't think Schroyer's necessarily signed is John Hancock

533
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:10,119
to it, but he's kind of floating around this guy

534
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,000
who definitely he's got me on the block list on

535
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,440
like three different accounts, calling me massad and you know,

536
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:18,079
jew lover and this, that and the third.

537
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 5: But it's just frustrating.

538
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 14: I guess I wanted to come on and see what

539
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,240
what your position was on it is.

540
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 5: I do think in a big way it is fake

541
00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:29,920
and gay, as I say, but.

542
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:35,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the only answer to these positions I

543
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,000
think is Christ in the in the traditional Orthodox sense,

544
00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:42,079
because you know, you're not going to have peace between

545
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:45,039
Arab and jew and all this kind of stuff until

546
00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:48,440
there's a recognition of the Messiah. So uh, you know,

547
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:50,599
but in the in the meantime, so that's not going

548
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,880
to happen right away most likely.

549
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,799
Speaker 3: I mean there's not. Really. It's like when people say, well,

550
00:33:56,799 --> 00:33:58,720
who's better a Muslim.

551
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 4: A Calvinist or a papist, and it's like, well, I

552
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,200
mean they're all kind of problematics. It's like it's hard

553
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,400
to it's like hard to pick amongst the wrong positions sometimes.

554
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, well, anyway, I think that uh, whoever that that

555
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,079
good old Southern molasses boy was that you're trying to

556
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:13,480
get on here.

557
00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:15,119
Speaker 5: I think he's kind of racist for not wanting to

558
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,039
debate green people.

559
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: But that's a good way. But like, yeah, why does

560
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:24,119
James White get to be racist against green people like myself?

561
00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:27,480
You know clearly clearly in that.

562
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 4: Picture I'm intending to be taken seriously because I'm pictured

563
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,239
with mac and me, And if James White doesn't know

564
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,880
what Macamy is, then that's already uh self refuting for

565
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,719
James White, basically, his career is over.

566
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,559
Speaker 3: Dan, what's up, good evening?

567
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:46,039
Speaker 16: Can I be?

568
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 3: He say?

569
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:49,079
Speaker 9: What?

570
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 3: Can you hear me? You can hear me, I can

571
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:57,719
hear you.

572
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 16: Okay, So I have questions about Calvinism, right, So my

573
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,320
first question, Okay, my first question is on your belief

574
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:17,320
over God decline all actions, right, so they believe that,

575
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,480
or I'm not very shonable. I know that some people

576
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:25,920
believe that God decrease all actions and that includes scein.

577
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:31,199
But at the same time they they hold that man

578
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,000
is responsible for sin. So my first question is how

579
00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:36,639
how how does that work?

580
00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:37,679
Speaker 5: Right?

581
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 8: Do you understand what I mean?

582
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's correct.

583
00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:45,039
Speaker 4: Calvin Is, for the most part, believe that that all

584
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:49,719
evil and sin are absolutely under the divine decree. Absolutely,

585
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,039
so that's really not even in question in Calvinism. Calvinists

586
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:56,679
give lip service to secondary causes and human free will

587
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,639
and choice, but even even the secondary causes are still

588
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,800
caused by the first cause, the divine cause.

589
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 3: So really it's just kind of lip service. And that's

590
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,320
why historically.

591
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,679
Speaker 4: Some Calvinists, amongst the Puritans Jonathan Edwards for example, they

592
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,159
actually end up being occasionalists, just like the Sunni Muslims.

593
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:56,599
Speaker 3: So let's see Andrew try again at doak pay.

594
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 17: Hi jak Amy. Yes, Sir Hi, so I was going

595
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,039
through your video the other day. I'm Roman Catholic, by

596
00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:13,400
the way, and you mentioned in your video about icons,

597
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:18,320
talking about how the Seventh Ecumenical Council actually distributes the

598
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,719
Roman Catholic position, and you basically said that in the

599
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,039
Seventh Council they gave sulf like limitations and criteria for

600
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,079
icons in within church services and all that.

601
00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:32,679
Speaker 3: I was looking.

602
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, I just addressed that it's so in the

603
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,280
Orthodox view the Seventh that Caminical councils, and we don't

604
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,840
view it like the Roman Catholics, that there's this like

605
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,199
strict legalistic thing that, oh, that's only the Seventh. That

606
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,239
chemical Council, the Council of eight forty three is what

607
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,760
we celebrate in the Orthodox Church as the victory of

608
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,239
Orthodoxy is called triumph of Orthodoxy. So yeah, way that

609
00:37:56,559 --> 00:38:00,519
council puts out the Sonotacon, which is from A three,

610
00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:04,079
which is about the Seventh Ecumenical Council. And by the way,

611
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:06,400
the Seventh that Gundom Council does have multiple canons that

612
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,960
deal with icons. For example, says not to make icons

613
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,719
of God the Father. So that's one example that easily

614
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,800
right there wipes out a whole bunch of Roman Catholic iconography,

615
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,039
because in principle you're not supposed to do that.

616
00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 3: Now, I'm not saying that all.

617
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:26,159
Speaker 4: Orthodox churches obey this, because sometimes Worthdox churches are not canonical,

618
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,599
but I was pointing out that the principles that you

619
00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:31,960
see even in the canons, even before getting to the

620
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,480
Sonoticon and other documents, the principles already from the outset

621
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:40,440
exclude things like the extreme accesses that you see all

622
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,440
throughout the Roman cllegtory.

623
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 17: Yeah, so that's what as a thing I couldn't really like.

624
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,360
So I saw that. I saw them like in two

625
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,800
candids that talked about you can s how to make

626
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,880
the icons bind sea, it's explicitly how to what is

627
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,800
including in acos always excluded from icons except what obviously

628
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:57,360
Godfather being depicted.

629
00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 4: Now there's a canon about the God the Father, and

630
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,039
it's actually I think even earlier if I recall the

631
00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:06,320
exclusion of God the Father is actually in Trollo, and

632
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,559
then it's restate all the Trello canons, by the way,

633
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:10,400
are affirmed by and I see it too, by the way,

634
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,360
so there's it's not just the canons, and I see

635
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,880
it two. I see you two, also affirms Trollo.

636
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:15,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

637
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 4: Any and then but if I recall even if you

638
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,679
go to New Advent, if you do control F and

639
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,519
you search icon on the canons under the Seventh Council,

640
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:26,639
there's I'm going from memory here, there's multiple canons to

641
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,679
talk about the icons, the images and all this kind

642
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:33,960
of stuff. They do not lay out artistic strictures per se.

643
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,880
That comes later on in the development of what happens

644
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,800
in terms of contrasting the East with the West.

645
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 17: Oh okay, so that so layout you said that came later.

646
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:47,159
What's like time period?

647
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: Was that? Was that like after.

648
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,039
Speaker 4: Well, if you read this, look up the sonaticon and

649
00:39:53,039 --> 00:39:55,320
the sonatakon, the full one, like not an abridged one,

650
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,280
like the full one from that or what's believed to

651
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,119
be from that time is pretty lengthy and it all

652
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:01,840
so you know, it goes into some of.

653
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 9: The operating Okay, cool, thanks man.

654
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,039
Speaker 3: Yeah no, that's great.

655
00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 4: Questions I put in the in the comments of that

656
00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:16,159
video that I'm referring to eight forty three, and that's

657
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:27,239
anauticon Andrew, you want to try again, yes, sir.

658
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 18: Hey, just let you know this actually is my first

659
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,239
time speaking on a Twitter space. Sor right, I know, yeah,

660
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,119
I know you were. Hey, Look, so I converted to

661
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:44,039
Catholicism in twenty sixteen. I was raised Calvinist Presbyterian. I

662
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:46,119
was just starting to read a lot of church history

663
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,480
and in some Catholic apologetics that it made sense.

664
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 8: And then, you know, with the.

665
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 18: Post Vatican two Catholic Church, I was having some theological issues.

666
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, you're going through what I went through in

667
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:01,239
the two thousands.

668
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,639
Speaker 18: Yeah, and uh, then you know, so then I I've

669
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,599
drifted towards traditionalism, and then and then you know, I've

670
00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:11,559
been studying for for a few years, and and then

671
00:41:11,599 --> 00:41:14,400
I'm having other issues. And so lately, you know, I've

672
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,880
been listening to Father Josiah Trinham and in reading some

673
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,400
Orthodox stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that's making

674
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,320
sense to me. But this may seem like a simple question,

675
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,880
but I've been reading this book, The Rise and Fall

676
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:35,320
of the Papacy. It's uh talking and the guy's talking

677
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,480
about how the ancient church. You know, he's talking about

678
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:47,519
a lot about the pentarchy, the five patriarchs, and uh,

679
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:51,880
with the schism, here's my question. With the schism between

680
00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:56,440
you know, the patriarch of the West and the other patriarchs.

681
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,639
Speaker 19: How does.

682
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:02,079
Speaker 18: How do they come how does the Orthodox Church now

683
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:02,719
come to like.

684
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 19: A consensus base, uh like decision like it do they

685
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:11,599
just like because Rome is in schism just basically ignore

686
00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:15,440
them like no, or like don't.

687
00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:16,679
Speaker 3: Uh yeah.

688
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,519
Speaker 4: So the Orthodox view does not believe that Rome is

689
00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:22,880
still part of the church. That's how a Vatican two

690
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,960
kind of mindset where when they look at us, they

691
00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:28,119
see us as quote the eastern lung of the Church.

692
00:42:28,199 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: They have this accumenist view.

693
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,519
Speaker 4: Orthodox ecclesiology does not include heretics and schismatics as amongst

694
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:36,519
the body of Christ. So no, we do not believe

695
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:40,800
that the papacy continued to be somehow you know, part

696
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,960
of the church or halfway in the church or one

697
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:45,559
third of the church. No, they left the church. They're

698
00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:47,840
not in the church. That's why they have to convert

699
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,280
to the church. And that's why every Orthodox church traditionally, classically,

700
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,039
historically has made people go through a profession of the.

701
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 3: Abjuration of heresies.

702
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 4: So when you join the Orthodox Church, are supposed to

703
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,199
I sure your previous heresies and mistakes, whether Protestant Calvinists Lutheran.

704
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 3: Or Roman Catholic.

705
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 4: So that shows you right there that I mean, you

706
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,280
wouldn't be abjuring your previous heresies if they thought it

707
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:10,679
was the church.

708
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 18: Yeah. And another question, do you have any like historical

709
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:20,400
books that would the like in depth stuff recommendations like

710
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:22,119
on orthodoxy.

711
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 3: In like.

712
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,639
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, yeah, like there's a bunch, But if

713
00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:29,360
you go to my channel when it comes to the

714
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,800
questions of like Vatican two and the history of the

715
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,280
papacy and those problems. Uh, I mean, I dare say

716
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,119
that I've gone deeper into that topic and more intently

717
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,480
into that topic than the author that you're speaking.

718
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: Of, or Father Josiah.

719
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 4: Not to knock those guys, but I spent many years

720
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,159
in the world of Roman Catholicism and in those documents,

721
00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:51,760
and I know those documents better than those guys. I

722
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,440
know those documents better than pretty much all the Roman Catholics.

723
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:58,159
So I could tell you, like you know where it'll

724
00:43:58,199 --> 00:43:59,920
go in Denzinger, I can tell you where to go

725
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:02,719
and the you know, Roman Catholic dogmatic councils, like I

726
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,320
know all that stuff really well. So find my old

727
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,320
videos about you know, Romancantholisism Vatican.

728
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:10,519
Speaker 3: You know that kind of stuff.

729
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:13,519
Speaker 4: Vatican One contradictions, all that stuff is pretty solid, I

730
00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:17,519
would say from my my channel. I mean, if you're

731
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:21,280
looking for, you know, Orthodox Church history in this regard,

732
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,239
I would say get the Papa Doccus Mayan North book.

733
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 3: The Papacy in the Middle Ages.

734
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 4: I think that book is really good because it's about

735
00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:33,559
the period when the East and the West split, and

736
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:38,119
you'll see very clearly that from one thousand to fourteen

737
00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:43,360
hundred the Roman Church clearly went in a different direction

738
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:46,639
than the pre existing United Church.

739
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:51,159
Speaker 18: Hey, thank you so much, and I will check out

740
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:51,559
your video.

741
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:52,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a lot.

742
00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 4: There's a lot, but there's also you know, you could

743
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,239
get another You could get Michael Welton's book Two Paths

744
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:03,840
as kind of a readable, more introductory book. Catholic Father

745
00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:04,760
crab people.

746
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 10: Hey, there as a Catholic.

747
00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 20: The skive them obviously being nearly a thousand years ago,

748
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,599
seems like a lot of one side.

749
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 10: Fucked up, the other side fucked up. And then did

750
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,320
the spider man mean, uh, you're out, No, you're out.

751
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:30,239
But I'm the Church.

752
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,039
Speaker 3: No, you're the Church.

753
00:45:33,079 --> 00:45:42,079
Speaker 20: At what point is or the the disunified Orthodoxy and

754
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:45,159
that claim to be the true Church and not have

755
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:50,079
broken apart part of the true Church. At what point

756
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:53,920
is that fruitful and what part of that is just pride?

757
00:45:54,559 --> 00:45:56,119
And would it not be beneficial?

758
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:03,079
Speaker 4: Your question assumes that the Roman Catholic Church is unified,

759
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:05,480
and I can make multiple arguments to demonstrate that it's

760
00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:09,039
not unified. And to accuse the Orthodox Church of pride

761
00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:13,400
is ignoring the papal admissions at the Alexandria Synod and

762
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,880
the t eighty Synod which admit that the Roman Church

763
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,800
engage in a lot of pride. So, uh, it's a

764
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,800
question of which one's right, which one's wrong.

765
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 3: It's not a question of you know.

766
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: I mean, look at the centuries after the Schism, which

767
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:32,039
church evolved away from the canonical structure of the Church

768
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:35,000
of the first thousand years.

769
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, I haven't studied this forever.

770
00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 20: So I need you to speak at least in a

771
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,519
way that can be interacted with, you know.

772
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,119
Speaker 4: And so you're here to debate the topic and you're

773
00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:50,440
accusing us of pride, but you're not familiar with the

774
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,519
history that you want to debate.

775
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 20: I'm not I'm not saying that Orthodoxy is incorrect where

776
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,079
you're claiming that Catholicism you.

777
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 4: Just said that it was an issue have brought you

778
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,320
said centuries of pride without unity.

779
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 20: So does the Orthodox claim that Catholics are not Christian.

780
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:13,079
Speaker 4: Where the traditional Orthodox position is that the papacy is

781
00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:16,719
heterodox for about thirty different reasons.

782
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 20: Okay, so the baptism in a Catholic baptism is not

783
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:25,440
valid and only an Orthodox baptism is valid, saying that

784
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:33,199
everybody else is wrong when the schism went tit for tat.

785
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: This is just an appeal to This is just an appeal.

786
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,280
This is just an appeal to emotion.

787
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 4: And the appeal is already assuming that the Catholic position

788
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,880
is correct on baptism. So you've not yet demonstrated that

789
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,360
the Catholic ex operary operators position is correct. So your

790
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,719
appeal to that and appeal to emotion doesn't work.

791
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,559
Speaker 10: Okay, have fun, have fun?

792
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,559
Speaker 4: So do you want to Why don't you want to

793
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:00,920
talk about the changes?

794
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 3: So he left? So here's what Roman calvics do.

795
00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 4: They sit there and they call me names all day,

796
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:07,440
say I'm the worst person ever. They hop on here

797
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,960
to debate when we get into the topics. They have

798
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,400
no knowledge of the topics. They act like that and

799
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:26,119
then they run away. Quay loquay, I me.

800
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 8: I have two questions.

801
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 21: So the first one is I attend to a Russian

802
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,400
Orthodox church, like, is are the teachings that they have

803
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:44,639
in that church the same as if I go to

804
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,039
let's say, a Greek Orthodox church, you know, or other

805
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:48,599
like that.

806
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:49,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the same.

807
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,159
Speaker 4: It's the same faith because it's it's called the canonical

808
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,239
Orthodox churches, So it's all the ones.

809
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 3: That are in communion.

810
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 4: And even if there's a period when one of the

811
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,480
bishops or the patriarchs are out of communion until there's

812
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:05,480
an excommunication, you it's still quote the same face, yes.

813
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 5: All right.

814
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,679
Speaker 22: And then I thinks, and I have my second question,

815
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,880
which is I went to your website, jasonalysis dot com.

816
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,199
I went to the recommended reading section. Are those books

817
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,119
you know? Do I still have to read them?

818
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 3: Like?

819
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,519
Speaker 22: Are they okay for me to read? The ones that

820
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:26,800
are about Orthodoxy? I'm the apologetics?

821
00:49:28,199 --> 00:49:30,039
Speaker 3: What do you mean are they okay? Why wouldn't they

822
00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:30,440
be okay?

823
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 22: No, I'm just asking just out of curiosity, you know,

824
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:35,079
that's just it.

825
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,679
Speaker 4: I mean, I haven't updated that list in a couple

826
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,400
of years, but I don't recall there being anything weird

827
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:43,320
or questionable on there.

828
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,519
Speaker 3: I'll take another look at it. Vic.

829
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,679
Speaker 23: Hey, I just had two things I wanted to say,

830
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,880
just a comment and a question. Uh the comments the

831
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,880
article that I mentioned earlier. Uh, just like my opinion

832
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,320
on that is just like it seems to me that

833
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:10,159
it's a typical like uh, that article. I mean, it's

834
00:50:10,159 --> 00:50:12,800
like a typical like cry bully hall monitor like tone

835
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,320
policing thing where it's like, oh, well, bad people say

836
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,800
Christ is king, So you can't say because if you

837
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,599
say that means you're like one of them, you know,

838
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:25,159
So I think we should uh just dismiss it in

839
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:28,599
my in my opinion whatever. And then the question is is, uh,

840
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,639
I'm kind of confused a little bit about Plato's dualism,

841
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,960
and I'm sorry this is if this is a bit

842
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,559
of a basic question, But it seems to me that

843
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:43,599
he does have like a binary like oppositions in a

844
00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:46,599
system like like uh oh.

845
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, I mean that's all that's great, reelectic,

846
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,239
but like.

847
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 24: For example, like yeah, between material world and the world

848
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,159
of the forms, but like at the same time, there

849
00:50:54,159 --> 00:50:58,639
also seems to be like uh, a hierarchical dualism, if

850
00:50:58,639 --> 00:51:00,199
that's like the right way to put it, in the

851
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,159
sense that he seems to say that the good is

852
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,840
I'm sorry, evil is the privation of the good, as

853
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:07,639
we would say.

854
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 3: So I'm not.

855
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:09,119
Speaker 25: I don't know.

856
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 23: It just got me a little bit confused that he

857
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,320
just kind of say, Okay, these things are intentioned and

858
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,920
then these things are kind of like structured hierarchically.

859
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 4: Right, So evil has different senses. Evil can be moral sense, right,

860
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,920
which in Christianity we believe that there's a moral sense

861
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,280
to evil, and that's really what's meant in the Bible

862
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,320
most of the time when it's talking about, you know,

863
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,159
violating the tank commandments and being an evil person. But

864
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:38,519
the Church Fathers also make use of the platonic and

865
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:44,719
neoplatonic usage of metaphysically speaking, evils or evil is to

866
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,280
do with privation and non being, and that helps them

867
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,679
explain onto logically that evil doesn't have a substance, it

868
00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:53,440
doesn't have being, and it's not created because everything that.

869
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: Exists is created by God and it's called good.

870
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,519
Speaker 4: And so everything that exists has some nature that makes

871
00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:02,079
it what it is, and evil has no nature. There's

872
00:52:02,079 --> 00:52:05,440
not a nature to evil, otherwise we would be Manichaeans.

873
00:52:05,639 --> 00:52:11,320
But Platonism does not distinguish really the ontological sense from

874
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,719
the moral sense. So there's a lack I would say

875
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,679
in Plato that, like, you're never going to get an

876
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,280
explanation in Platonism as to why the One split into

877
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,840
the diad and into the triad, and why we have

878
00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:26,920
why we have all this multiplicity that's supposed to get

879
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,639
back to the One. So yeah, Christianity is a moral religion.

880
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,400
I mean, it has metaphysics, but morals are first, and

881
00:52:35,639 --> 00:52:40,000
Greek philosophy is a metaphysics religion. It's not primarily concerned

882
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,440
with morals and ethics first. Man's chief problem is metaphysical.

883
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 3: But of course that doesn't mean that Plato doesn't have

884
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,239
a place for.

885
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,679
Speaker 4: Ethics and virtues. Certainly he does. He thinks they're intimately connected.

886
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,159
But the fact that he thinks that there's a descending

887
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:01,360
hierarchy of like an ontologically diminished status for the descending

888
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,199
hierarchy of the emanations, like that.

889
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:06,519
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean that they're not. There's not a dialectical.

890
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:07,599
Speaker 26: Okay, thank you, that really clears it up.

891
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:18,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, questions I think that when you get into like Platinus,

892
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,159
he tried to synthesize Plato and Aristotles. He's he's actually

893
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:25,119
trying to deal with some of those problems in both

894
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:26,119
Plato and Aristotle.

895
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:29,079
Speaker 3: It's open for me. You guys want to bring up.

896
00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 4: Philosophy, topics, Calvinism, Protestantism, Becauseolicism, Islam, Atheism, church history, papacy,

897
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:42,679
biblical theology. It's all on the table. We got a

898
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,480
nice crowd of two and twenty in here. Of course,

899
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,719
I didn't think James White would actually show up, but

900
00:53:50,559 --> 00:53:57,679
I don't know why he wouldn't if we need, like

901
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,280
why does he need a year to prepare to debate

902
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,800
like can calvin is stuff that he's debated for the

903
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:08,800
last thirty years. I don't know why, but no, he's

904
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,519
of course he's gonna, you know, so he's too good

905
00:54:10,519 --> 00:54:15,239
to come in here and do that. But whatever, Yeah,

906
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:16,519
I just don't see why I need to do it

907
00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:19,119
in person, debate a year from now on the topics

908
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:22,239
that are none of the topics that I suggested to

909
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,519
debate with him for the last six seven years. So

910
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:32,320
how about he debate the topics that I, uh, or

911
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,159
maybe there were if there's some happy medium.

912
00:54:34,199 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 3: He debates the Philly OQUI absolutely my suplicity as as

913
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,440
an interestinction and its social contourism like that. But and

914
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,119
then people who say they want to do in.

915
00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:48,119
Speaker 4: Person debates, this is a way to postpone and kind

916
00:54:48,199 --> 00:54:50,639
of you know, throw out there a thing that's really

917
00:54:50,639 --> 00:54:53,960
difficult to set up, and they kind of just hope

918
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,000
that it'll get forgotten. And I also think he loaded

919
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,000
his post with a bunch of blame humor, jobs and

920
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:04,840
insults so that I would reply with jobs and insults,

921
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,440
which is what I did, so that he could go

922
00:55:06,519 --> 00:55:09,239
and say, well, look this person's not serious. He replies

923
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,280
with jobs and insults. It's like, okay, so when you

924
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:12,960
do it, it's christ like. And that's what all his

925
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:15,119
gay followers are like, look at.

926
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,639
Speaker 3: This guy, he's not serious. Look at those jobs and

927
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,519
insults as like, you mean.

928
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 4: What DA's white said. So it's a weird double standard.

929
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,800
These people are ridiculous.

930
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,159
Speaker 27: Yes, sir, So I don't know if you I didn't

931
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,639
comment on your debate stream, But have you heard of

932
00:55:39,679 --> 00:55:41,639
this guy Naven allegedly Ian.

933
00:55:44,519 --> 00:55:45,679
Speaker 8: Now allegedly ian.

934
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:51,519
Speaker 27: He's this atheist right now he's so he basically is

935
00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:56,320
trying to argue that God doesn't exist because of slavery

936
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,960
in the Bible, and he basically says that because God

937
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,039
is the perfect lawgiver, therefore it follows that God is

938
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,679
either immoral or does not exist because he sanctioned slavery.

939
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,639
Speaker 3: So how would you that?

940
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, Lewis just made a two hour documentary on that topic.

941
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:18,559
So yeah, there's nothing that necessitates that a lawgiver can't

942
00:56:19,079 --> 00:56:22,920
give people laws that gradually lead them to an end goal.

943
00:56:23,079 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 3: So that'd be like.

944
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 4: Saying a parent is a bad parent because they don't

945
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,360
give to their child the laws and the rules that

946
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,000
are appropriate for a teenager or for an adult. So

947
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,920
it's just an oversimplification fallacy, I would argue, because the

948
00:56:40,039 --> 00:56:42,960
idea that the ancient world and you know, in this

949
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:46,800
barbaric realm, that they were suddenly expected to have the

950
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,039
norms and the ethics of you know, the twenty first

951
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:51,599
century is just kind of an unrealistic.

952
00:56:51,559 --> 00:56:52,679
Speaker 3: Unrealistic expectation.

953
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 4: And also, how does he know that it's more perfect

954
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:03,599
to immediately give the law of the highest expectations versus

955
00:57:03,639 --> 00:57:07,639
a graduated law giving that leads men over time to

956
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,400
more and more higher standards.

957
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 3: So he's just assuming that that's what's.

958
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:15,519
Speaker 4: Entailed in perfection I have, but I have no idea

959
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:17,440
how he would know, Aufrey or I that that's what's

960
00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:18,920
entailed in a perfect lawgiver.

961
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:20,559
Speaker 3: And so you could just ask.

962
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,239
Speaker 4: Him, you know, epistemic questions as to on what basis

963
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,400
how do you know that was your justification for that assertion.

964
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: So because of he's going.

965
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 4: To try to reply on rely on biblical ethics and

966
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:34,559
the revelation of who God is. Well, God revealed it

967
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,840
such that he gradually, in a graduated way, gave laws

968
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,320
to men to lead them to higher and higher standards.

969
00:57:42,119 --> 00:57:47,400
And then Lewis's documentary gets into the history of slavery

970
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:52,239
in the history of Christianity. So he just put he put,

971
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,639
like I don't know, a lot of time and effort

972
00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:55,079
into that.

973
00:57:55,199 --> 00:57:57,559
Speaker 3: Lewis was working on that for like the last three

974
00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:02,360
or four years. But away good questions. It's open for him.

975
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,199
If you have a question or a comminent you're you're

976
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,840
welcome to bring it up to the table. If you disagree,

977
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,039
you can make an argument. Please make it an argument.

978
00:58:13,119 --> 00:58:14,960
We don't care what you think about me. You can

979
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,719
already just say I'm the worst person. I don't care.

980
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 4: You can say I'm tiny mustache man, interbred with Judas,

981
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:30,119
interbred with saar On, interbred with Jeffrey BADONCA doc Dahmer.

982
00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:34,360
I'm all four of those combined into also being a

983
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,719
KGB Massade.

984
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 3: Cia operative who worked with Jeff SIMONC. Geffrey.

985
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,719
Speaker 4: So I'm all those guys combined as an operative. So

986
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,519
now we know I'm the worst person, and then now

987
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:48,639
we can just move on to the actual topics.

988
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 6: He what's up, Hello, how's it going?

989
00:58:59,559 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 5: Jay?

990
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 28: Doing well? I could bring up tag correct. I just

991
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,599
had one question. So when I brought up tag to

992
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,679
an atheist, he brought up that I was affirming the consequence,

993
00:59:17,679 --> 00:59:19,480
and I was wondering how you'd respond to that.

994
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's just it's not assuming the thing

995
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,280
in question. So I think if you go watch my

996
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:36,280
video addressing the top ten objections to tag, and then

997
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,800
there's another one I did, there's the it's the two

998
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,920
most popular tag videos that I did, and I think

999
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,719
I addressed that that objection in both of those videos,

1000
00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:48,840
So go check those out if you want to fuller

1001
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,519
it's just misunderstanding what tag is. So first of all,

1002
00:59:52,719 --> 00:59:56,239
tag is not the same thing as the transcendental argument itself.

1003
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,440
Like transcendent arguments have been used all the way back

1004
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:02,159
to Aristotle, They've been used all the way back to.

1005
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:10,559
Speaker 3: John Damascus and Book one without the knowledge. I mean,

1006
01:00:10,719 --> 01:00:11,880
they have a long.

1007
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 9: History.

1008
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 3: Right. So if we look at the claim that if

1009
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,400
you I'm looking this up here, so from the consequent

1010
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,199
argue for those don't in the audience, the logical fallacy

1011
01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:32,559
where someone incorrectly concludes that if a conditional statement consequent

1012
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:37,320
the then part, if that's true, then the antecedent must

1013
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:44,519
also be true. So the difference is that we're not

1014
01:00:44,639 --> 01:00:49,159
saying that because God exists, or excuse me, we're not

1015
01:00:49,199 --> 01:00:52,639
saying that because there's knowledge therefore God exists.

1016
01:00:53,039 --> 01:00:57,119
Speaker 4: In the sense of like a fallacy where you are

1017
01:00:57,159 --> 01:01:01,239
dealing with normative claims about day to day type stuff

1018
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,960
or day to day type arguments, the difference is that

1019
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,840
this is dealing with the notion of grounding for an

1020
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:08,800
entire worldview.

1021
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,559
Speaker 3: So a lot of times fallacies are dealing with things

1022
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:15,480
that are not at that level. Right.

1023
01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 4: So sometimes when we talk about circularity, right, people say, well,

1024
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,440
you're being you know, the tag is a circular argument,

1025
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,360
you're committing circularity. And then when we say well, at

1026
01:01:24,599 --> 01:01:28,079
the root level, all arguments are circular, they then say

1027
01:01:28,079 --> 01:01:32,400
something like, aha, see you're giving yourself some the free

1028
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,320
reign to use circular argmentation. That's only when you're dealing

1029
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,079
with things not at the level of a paradigm or

1030
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:42,559
a worldview, because part of TAG is already just assumes,

1031
01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:46,360
or it's baked into the argument that everybody's worldview bottoms

1032
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,119
out is something self referencing.

1033
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 3: Now, it's true that.

1034
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 4: An atheist could could say, well, I take issue with

1035
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,480
that claim, right, If TAG is built on that, then

1036
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,960
I take issue with that claim that everything is built

1037
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,360
on something self referencing. And if they do, then ninety

1038
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:01,920
nine percent of the time they're going to end up

1039
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,119
with some kind of classical foundationalism or self evident principles

1040
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:07,039
or axioms.

1041
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 3: Right, And the problem is that that's an even worse route

1042
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:10,679
to take.

1043
01:02:10,719 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 4: They'd be better off just trying to go after critiquing

1044
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,719
TAG rather than to try to affirm their self evident principles.

1045
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:19,360
As you saw in the debate with Trent, that's a

1046
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,360
very difficult and impossible task because anytime you try to

1047
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,159
argue that something is self evident, you also assume a

1048
01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:29,920
standard of self evidence that sets it off from the

1049
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,079
things that are not self evident, and thus that standard

1050
01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:36,920
becomes more fundamental than the so called self evidence principle.

1051
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,559
And also the self evidence principle is relying upon that standard,

1052
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:44,079
and thus if it's relying on something it's not self evident.

1053
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:49,280
Beyond that, there's also the criterion problem, which, if you

1054
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,679
believe in classical foundationalism or self evidence, criterion problem becomes

1055
01:02:52,719 --> 01:02:59,119
a problem, and resolving that is more difficult than just

1056
01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:02,440
as saying, okay, fine, some everybody's world view botom is

1057
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,119
out at some point. So what TAG is doing is

1058
01:03:05,239 --> 01:03:08,639
arguing not at the normal day to day level of

1059
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,880
you know, I know Bill Cosby is a bad person

1060
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,559
because you know, let's think, how can we put this

1061
01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:25,719
into a firm of the consequent? If I'm trying to

1062
01:03:25,719 --> 01:03:27,960
think of a way to let's say, what the let's

1063
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:37,559
find an example of a firm of the consequent, So

1064
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,480
you could say something.

1065
01:03:39,199 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 3: Like the best advice.

1066
01:03:48,239 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 4: You could give to a first year university student is

1067
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,920
to work hard. If you do well at university, you

1068
01:03:54,039 --> 01:03:59,440
will do even better once you've graduated. Wait a minute,

1069
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:08,079
that's not It comes an example. Excuse me, if I

1070
01:04:08,159 --> 01:04:09,599
have caffeine.

1071
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:11,559
Speaker 3: I will be awake all night. I'm awake all night,

1072
01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:12,920
therefore I had caffeine.

1073
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,159
Speaker 4: So it's a fallacy because there might be multiple reasons

1074
01:04:16,199 --> 01:04:19,679
why you're awake all night, and it doesn't necessitate that

1075
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,800
the way that you were awake was through caffeine. But

1076
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,400
when we're setting up a transcendental argument that's dealing with

1077
01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:29,719
grounding for a worldview, there's not an infinite number of

1078
01:04:29,719 --> 01:04:34,079
possibilities for how you could ground a transcendental category. So

1079
01:04:34,199 --> 01:04:37,000
you might say something like well, and then a lot

1080
01:04:37,039 --> 01:04:38,519
of the atheists do say this, and when we have

1081
01:04:38,599 --> 01:04:41,920
the space come up, they'll say something like, well, you know,

1082
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:47,440
if I were to formulate the argument like X is

1083
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,280
the necessary condition of why why? Therefore X? You know,

1084
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,239
knowledge is a PREAKONDI. God is breedish of knowledge. Knowledge exists,

1085
01:04:53,239 --> 01:04:59,440
therefore God. There's not an infinite number of reasons that

1086
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:03,440
you could or ways that you could ground knowledge, right,

1087
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:09,599
So it's a it's a false comparison to the analogy to.

1088
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 3: Sorry, we're trying to drive and I'm trying to give

1089
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,320
directions too. At the same time good directions.

1090
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:22,519
Speaker 4: Here, it's a false analogy to the caffeine example, because

1091
01:05:23,039 --> 01:05:26,239
there's multiple reasons and explanations for why you might be

1092
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,679
up all night. Maybe you're nervous, maybe you ate some

1093
01:05:28,719 --> 01:05:30,280
weird food, and it's keeping.

1094
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:30,639
Speaker 3: You up right.

1095
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 4: So it doesn't necessitate that the only reason that you're

1096
01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:36,159
uphole all night is.

1097
01:05:36,119 --> 01:05:39,079
Speaker 3: Because you had caffeine. But to apply that to the

1098
01:05:39,119 --> 01:05:41,679
critique of acts as a necessary condition of why why

1099
01:05:41,679 --> 01:05:45,360
therefore X, it's not the same thing because the argument

1100
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,639
is about grounding a paradigm and a worldview in transtional

1101
01:05:48,679 --> 01:05:52,199
categories as a whole, and there are not a host

1102
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,280
of things that could ground that. So even if you.

1103
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 4: Thought that tag was somehow affirming the consequence, the argue

1104
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,679
is actually much more radical than that, because it's actually

1105
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,280
arguing that logic itself presupposes God, so you couldn't use

1106
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,639
logic as a way to cancel out or disprove God's

1107
01:06:11,679 --> 01:06:15,679
existence when the argument is about, well, what grounds logic itself?

1108
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,719
So it's actually missing the forest for the trees in

1109
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,559
terms of what's prior to the thing in question, namely logic,

1110
01:06:23,679 --> 01:06:26,480
if that makes sense. So that was along with an explanation,

1111
01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:34,239
but hopefully that's helpful, Like if the question was just

1112
01:06:34,559 --> 01:06:39,880
you know, a mundane example, like if I drink coffee,

1113
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,079
I will stay up all night. I stayed up all night,

1114
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:45,000
So therefore it was because of coffee. Well maybe, but

1115
01:06:45,079 --> 01:06:48,400
maybe there's other reasons. Right, that's a mundane example. That's

1116
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,480
not the same thing as saying, well, there's infinite ways

1117
01:06:52,199 --> 01:06:58,519
to ground transmit categories and worldviews. There's not like any

1118
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:04,679
any kind of thing you start listing, like even if

1119
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:06,719
you live, even if you thought there was multiple like,

1120
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,840
they're not going to work to do the grounding work,

1121
01:07:09,079 --> 01:07:13,719
so they're missing what the argument actually is. I think

1122
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,079
people get tripped up because it's an argument for a worldview,

1123
01:07:17,119 --> 01:07:20,199
and it's an argument that's prior to logic itself, so

1124
01:07:20,239 --> 01:07:38,639
it's a metallogical argument. It's open for him. If anybody

1125
01:07:38,679 --> 01:07:41,599
wants to hop on, hit the request to speak, and

1126
01:07:41,679 --> 01:07:47,000
you can come up to the top. We can talk Calvinism,

1127
01:07:47,159 --> 01:07:55,280
tag Protestantism, Catholicism is a long atheism, art history rooms, papacy,

1128
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,519
you want to discuss it. You got it, You got it, dude,

1129
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,000
it's open for him. We actually got I thought we

1130
01:08:04,039 --> 01:08:05,880
had two hundred people. There's three hundred and eight people

1131
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,960
in here. I know there's got to be some Calvinist lurkers, y'all.

1132
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,400
Calvin is back there, lurking, y'all lurk, And what y'all

1133
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:11,840
afraid of?

1134
01:08:12,639 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 3: John? Danger? We're in danger and John's here. I'm mute.

1135
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:29,039
Speaker 4: Why did you leave? I don't understand. There's three hundred

1136
01:08:29,039 --> 01:08:30,680
people and nobody wants to come up here and talk

1137
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,159
about any of these topics listened.

1138
01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 3: I don't get it.

1139
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:40,399
Speaker 4: There's over three hundred people, Hi, no problem question.

1140
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 29: I was in a debate yesterday and then I was

1141
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,800
listening to what went on afterwards.

1142
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: At you dropped out?

1143
01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:57,199
Speaker 5: Dude.

1144
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:07,239
Speaker 3: Now he's totally gone. Tell me, dude, is it? Try again?

1145
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:07,960
Try again?

1146
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:09,039
Speaker 26: Coming back there?

1147
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:09,520
Speaker 3: Yep?

1148
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:11,199
Speaker 30: Okay, sorry, but I don't know what happened.

1149
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,600
Speaker 26: Okay, so I'll just shorten it up here.

1150
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 31: A gentleman.

1151
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 30: He proclaims to be uh Eastern Orthodox.

1152
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 3: You must have a bad connection, dude. I don't know.

1153
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,279
Maybe you can get to a space place where you

1154
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:35,960
got a better connection, but I may not come on now,

1155
01:09:36,039 --> 01:09:40,720
y'all got we got three hundred people in here, over

1156
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,479
three hundred people, and nobody has any objections. I know

1157
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:46,800
there's a lot of Protestant workers.

1158
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 4: I promise I'll be nice to you unless you want

1159
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,520
a debate, if you want, if you want to ask questions,

1160
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:52,119
come on up.

1161
01:09:52,159 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 6: I'll be sweet.

1162
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 3: I'll talk to you like Youbama happy, your mama for you.

1163
01:09:59,119 --> 01:10:02,239
I'll be sweet too. Promise I won't hurt your feelings.

1164
01:10:02,279 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 6: I love you. I'm your mama on the internet.

1165
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,319
Speaker 3: I won't be that thinged bank daddy.

1166
01:10:08,239 --> 01:10:09,279
Speaker 6: He's in the dog house.

1167
01:10:09,359 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 3: He ain't gonna get in tonight.

1168
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 5: I'll be your mama.

1169
01:10:13,319 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 32: I love you.

1170
01:10:14,039 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 3: Oh you sweet. Internet boys don't won't get your feelings hood, Trent.

1171
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,840
I missed the days of the Internet when.

1172
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,399
Speaker 4: Everybody was just uh it was wild West and everybody

1173
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:29,279
just made fun of everybody, and you expected to get

1174
01:10:29,279 --> 01:10:31,479
your feelings hurt. Now we're in this atmosphere for like

1175
01:10:32,119 --> 01:10:36,039
he should go out ahead, Trent.

1176
01:10:37,239 --> 01:10:40,079
Speaker 33: Hey, Jay, Oh, I hope it's all right if I

1177
01:10:40,079 --> 01:10:41,439
get can asked an Orthodox question.

1178
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 3: I promise it's not like a basic catechumen one. Okay, Yeah,

1179
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:45,439
I was.

1180
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 33: Wondering if you can explain to me because in my

1181
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,880
local parish community I haven't really gotten any succinct answers,

1182
01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:52,479
but can you like properly explain if like the Russian

1183
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,279
Orthodox Church and Greek Orthodox Church are formerly not in

1184
01:10:55,319 --> 01:10:57,960
communion and if so, what is the consequence of that

1185
01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:59,880
with the ecumenical patriarch.

1186
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,520
Speaker 4: As far as I know, they're still out of canonical communion,

1187
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:08,880
but there has not been a formal excommunication. So church law,

1188
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:13,439
canon law usually proceeds in stages. Whether it's even the

1189
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,119
Romancallolic Church or whether it's the Orthodox Church, they both

1190
01:11:16,199 --> 01:11:19,199
kind of have some of the same principles about stages

1191
01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:24,439
of canonical procedure, and so if there was an excommunication

1192
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,279
of the EP, they're out of communion right now. But

1193
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:32,479
for example, we don't rebaptize or quote baptize people who

1194
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:34,199
were to come to us from the Greeks. We would

1195
01:11:34,239 --> 01:11:36,680
still accept them as having the faith. That might be

1196
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:41,680
different though, if the situation progressed to a full excommunication,

1197
01:11:42,239 --> 01:11:43,920
and then it would be a dependent then it would

1198
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,920
be a situation where the other patriarchates would choose sides,

1199
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:50,560
probably whether you know EP or MP.

1200
01:11:51,359 --> 01:11:54,399
Speaker 3: So hopefully it doesn't get to that, but we have actually.

1201
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:57,319
Speaker 4: Seen multiple types of things and examples of this in

1202
01:11:57,399 --> 01:11:59,960
church history, Like in the first millennium you had patriarchs

1203
01:12:00,079 --> 01:12:04,000
and schism many times, and it wasn't the Roman bishop

1204
01:12:04,039 --> 01:12:06,439
who just magically solved that in a lot of these cases.

1205
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,840
You even had recently, I think the Macedonian Church that

1206
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,039
was in schism for like eighty years and they resolved

1207
01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:16,079
that conflict last year, so without the pope.

1208
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,359
Speaker 3: So anyway, that's where it stands right now.

1209
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:20,159
Speaker 26: Thank you.

1210
01:12:20,199 --> 01:12:22,239
Speaker 33: If I can ask a quick follow up, do you

1211
01:12:22,239 --> 01:12:24,520
foresee it going that direction that's what you want?

1212
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 3: Okay?

1213
01:12:25,039 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 33: Do you foresee it going that direction with the Greek

1214
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:28,720
Church based on like your historical understanding.

1215
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 4: I don't know, because you know, it includes a lot

1216
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,399
of factors. Obviously, the EP is really close to the

1217
01:12:36,399 --> 01:12:38,920
CIA in the State Department, and they're really tied to

1218
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:43,439
what Washington wants, and uh, you know that makes it

1219
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,119
difficult because it's not just religious stuff, a lot of

1220
01:12:46,119 --> 01:12:48,840
political stuff. So I don't know how that will all

1221
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:51,720
shake out. You know, you could get a situation where

1222
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:56,159
if Trump ends the the war in Ukraine, if things

1223
01:12:56,199 --> 01:12:58,239
go in that direction, then that could put an end

1224
01:12:58,239 --> 01:12:59,960
to the Ukraine schism, and that could put an end

1225
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,399
to a lot of these actions of the EP which

1226
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:06,680
contradict his own statements and actions from prior to the war.

1227
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 26: Okay, that's all I had.

1228
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 33: Thank you very much, Jay, And also I just wanted

1229
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:12,920
to say, really appreciate all your work.

1230
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,279
Speaker 8: You helped me a lot fine Orthodoxy.

1231
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 3: Thanks Trent, appreciate that. That's really kind.

1232
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:32,560
Speaker 4: Where As many years to you otis, what's up, man, beam?

1233
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,439
You want to try if Otis can't connect, I'm.

1234
01:13:42,239 --> 01:13:43,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the matter cracking?

1235
01:13:44,199 --> 01:13:48,359
Speaker 34: So for the record, I'm a Calvinist, I'm a reformed Anglican.

1236
01:13:48,399 --> 01:13:52,520
That's my specsum coming from. I'm very much aware of

1237
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,680
your criticisms of Calvinism, and you know about the whole

1238
01:13:55,720 --> 01:14:00,560
like what was it again you say, well, totally means

1239
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:02,079
that we can't know if we're elected and so on.

1240
01:14:02,159 --> 01:14:04,640
So I understand a lot of your criticisms.

1241
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,279
Speaker 3: But I mean that's a very minor criticism. The majority

1242
01:14:08,279 --> 01:14:09,479
of my criticisms are hard.

1243
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,399
Speaker 34: Yeah, I know it's one of them, and I know

1244
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:14,039
they are like other like things.

1245
01:14:14,079 --> 01:14:17,560
Speaker 4: You think, Oh, well, the majority of the majority are crystological.

1246
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,840
So maybe if you want to debate that, you can

1247
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:20,319
address that.

1248
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:20,600
Speaker 25: Well.

1249
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,399
Speaker 34: I had a question, if that's fine, just one question

1250
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:28,720
about these Orthodox position. Okay, yeah, so obviously you know

1251
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,359
you used to be a Calvinist. You you at least

1252
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,960
know what we think is comforting about Calvinism, right like

1253
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:39,359
we think that because we're elect we're in God's hands

1254
01:14:39,359 --> 01:14:41,880
and salvation doesn't depend on us, and so on, and

1255
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,840
so at least two, maybe the everyday person people can

1256
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:51,079
understand what the comfort is in Calvinism with unconditional election

1257
01:14:51,119 --> 01:14:53,479
in particular, even if you think it doesn't make sense,

1258
01:14:54,039 --> 01:14:56,640
I get that. But you can see how there is

1259
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:01,239
a comfort there. How do you because the way I

1260
01:15:01,279 --> 01:15:03,239
understand it, And if you want to just say, well,

1261
01:15:03,279 --> 01:15:07,319
my interpretation's wrong, that's fine. Saint Paul talks of predestination

1262
01:15:07,399 --> 01:15:12,159
as a comfort in scripture, and I just don't understand

1263
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:16,000
how that makes sense if you don't hold on conditional election.

1264
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,760
How like, is there any comfort in predestination for the

1265
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,439
East Orthodox or not?

1266
01:15:22,279 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 4: Well, I mean comfort in the sense of we view

1267
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:29,920
predestination in those passages as primarily dealing with collectives. And

1268
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:31,920
so if you look at even the statement in Rome's

1269
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,239
nine about Jacob and Esau, if you go back and

1270
01:15:34,279 --> 01:15:37,000
read it in the original passages talking about the nations,

1271
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,640
and so when Paul writes to the Ephesians, for example,

1272
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:44,079
he calls the entire visible church at Ephesus the predestined,

1273
01:15:44,119 --> 01:15:46,399
he does not single it out for the invisible church.

1274
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 34: Okay, so would you say that there's any comfort we

1275
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:53,720
can derive as individual Christians.

1276
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,399
Speaker 3: Or absolutely, That's what the sacraments are there for, is

1277
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:02,199
to actually provide that's comfort and assurance that well, I.

1278
01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:06,039
Speaker 34: Mean specifically for predestination. Like obviously sacraments of you know,

1279
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:08,159
they be assured a little bit.

1280
01:16:08,199 --> 01:16:10,239
Speaker 4: Again, I mean, I could even I could even say

1281
01:16:10,239 --> 01:16:14,720
with the Augustinian position that, like, like Augustine said, even

1282
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:20,479
if the final persevering elect are the real true quote predestined,

1283
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:22,680
we don't know who has that, and we don't in

1284
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,039
other words, we don't know who has the gift of perseverance. So,

1285
01:16:25,079 --> 01:16:29,159
for example, even the Augustinian model refutes that idea because

1286
01:16:29,199 --> 01:16:34,279
he believes in a collective predestining, so to speak to grace.

1287
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,880
But that doesn't ensure that, that doesn't ensure that you

1288
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:40,199
have the gifts of perseverance, because many fall away and apostatize.

1289
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:42,680
Speaker 34: All right, thank you, then have a nice one.

1290
01:16:44,239 --> 01:16:55,159
Speaker 35: Yeah, good questions. Hold on one second, team.

1291
01:17:07,039 --> 01:17:10,079
Speaker 36: I'll go ahead, Bean, Yeah, I just wanted to add

1292
01:17:10,119 --> 01:17:12,880
on to what the guy was seeing, the affirming the

1293
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:19,199
consequent Uh, the way that tag is argued, I wouldn't say, well,

1294
01:17:19,279 --> 01:17:21,560
like tag isn't being argued.

1295
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:26,399
Speaker 6: Uh, let's see, let's see.

1296
01:17:27,239 --> 01:17:28,039
Speaker 3: How do I see this?

1297
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 8: I hid it in my head and I just kind

1298
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:32,760
of figure, hold on.

1299
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 3: All right, well you can you can think about it.

1300
01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:41,680
You can think about it, come back, major danger? What's up?

1301
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:53,439
Got a mute?

1302
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:03,159
Speaker 5: If you want.

1303
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 3: Major danger? Unmute? If you'd like to speak, are you there?

1304
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:26,399
You gotta turn your mic on? If you guys want

1305
01:18:26,399 --> 01:18:28,760
to speak. I don't like nobody's used. We've been doing

1306
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:35,279
these spaces for how many years? Are you there?

1307
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:40,079
Speaker 4: Anybody else is open for him? If you'd like to

1308
01:18:40,119 --> 01:18:42,800
come up topics that are alvin.

1309
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,239
Speaker 3: Isn't protests, but also is the Muslims church, history of

1310
01:18:48,279 --> 01:18:51,000
deal politics. We can make it whatever we want. Jen,

1311
01:18:51,159 --> 01:18:51,760
what's up? Jen?

1312
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:10,159
Speaker 37: I'm mute, En. Nobody wants to speak. You guys don't

1313
01:19:10,199 --> 01:19:17,720
know how to do this? Go ahead?

1314
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:28,119
Speaker 3: Hello, yep, Hey, how are you doing? Jack? Yeah, what's up?

1315
01:19:28,119 --> 01:19:28,239
Speaker 5: Man?

1316
01:19:29,199 --> 01:19:29,319
Speaker 3: Uh?

1317
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 38: I'm kind of curious if you know this from your

1318
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,840
study of Catholicism.

1319
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:35,199
Speaker 3: I was Patholic as well.

1320
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:40,600
Speaker 38: I'm something that's I've been wondering is do you think

1321
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:46,840
there was a theological basis for the Latin Church using

1322
01:19:47,119 --> 01:19:52,600
unleavened bread in the uh in the around the fifth

1323
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:53,600
to the seventhde Suries.

1324
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,119
Speaker 3: Is there a theological basis? I don't know what they

1325
01:20:00,119 --> 01:20:00,760
would have argued.

1326
01:20:01,399 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 38: I don't know either. I heard theories that because of

1327
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:08,239
the Germanic migrations they were in a state of penitence,

1328
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,199
and oh, okay.

1329
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 3: I also heard.

1330
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:15,279
Speaker 38: That because of the cutting off of the Mediterranean they

1331
01:20:15,279 --> 01:20:23,000
couldn't receive proper grade for leamon bread from Egypt. So

1332
01:20:23,119 --> 01:20:25,399
I was just curious if you knew anything of like

1333
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:28,159
exactly why they did.

1334
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 4: No, I don't know, And you know, that might be

1335
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:36,640
a situation where there could be, you know, some canonical

1336
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,720
wiggle room. It's kind of like the Orthodox Church, for example,

1337
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:44,560
in Japan, as I understand it, Japan, the government mandates

1338
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:49,079
that people have to get cremated, and Orthodox can of

1339
01:20:49,159 --> 01:20:53,479
law doesn't allow for cremation. But they ruled that it's

1340
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:57,319
better to have the Church in Japan and accept cremation

1341
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,239
than to not have the Orthodox Church in Japan.

1342
01:21:00,039 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 3: Oh Canon's are you know? Chirk law is the spirit

1343
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:04,680
of the law, and that's.

1344
01:21:06,119 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 5: What's up.

1345
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 35: Alright, Hello, all right, so wasting everyone's time in uh defiance?

1346
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:21,199
Speaker 3: What's up?

1347
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:21,880
Speaker 5: Hey man?

1348
01:21:23,279 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 39: Hey, So I've been listening to you for quite a bit.

1349
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,520
Love your stuff. I kind of am considering myself a

1350
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:36,600
recovering Calvinist. But I have a question about Romans chapter nine. Okay,

1351
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,319
So in Romans chapter nine, Paul kind of lays out

1352
01:21:40,359 --> 01:21:44,840
his case and then he gets to the point and

1353
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,720
I can't I can't cite it exactly, but he gets

1354
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,520
to the point where he kind of anticipates the counter argument,

1355
01:21:51,039 --> 01:21:53,800
and he says something along the lines of so what like, so,

1356
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,000
so what if God did make vessels for wrath and

1357
01:21:57,119 --> 01:21:58,039
vessels for glory?

1358
01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:01,319
Speaker 4: You go back to the passage where it's originally cited.

1359
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:06,520
It's a passage that's talking collectively about nations. Jacob and

1360
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:11,720
Esau are two nations in the womb. And the point

1361
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:13,319
that I made to the other guy is that we

1362
01:22:13,399 --> 01:22:16,560
know that it's collective because the same terminology and language

1363
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:21,680
that Paul uses in Ephesians is used of the collective

1364
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,560
visible church at Ephesus and for the for the Calvinist

1365
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:29,760
ex of Jesus. To be correct and to work, Paul

1366
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:31,760
has to then be writing not to the church at

1367
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,039
Ephesus that has a bishop named Timothy, but to the

1368
01:22:35,119 --> 01:22:42,960
elect at Ephesus, who are the unknown, invisible church, Aaron,

1369
01:22:43,119 --> 01:22:56,199
the non binary. So I guess there's like a bunch

1370
01:22:56,239 --> 01:22:59,760
of profiles three, now two, and then this will be

1371
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:03,079
the third one calling in to play country music.

1372
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:10,319
Speaker 3: Let's see if this one does it. Fat pussy, please

1373
01:23:10,359 --> 01:23:15,640
come play your country music, all right, So guess not

1374
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:28,720
fry guys, yep.

1375
01:23:30,279 --> 01:23:32,520
Speaker 40: I just had a couple of questions. I'm actually an

1376
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:38,479
Orthodox catechumen converting from Roman Catholicism, and I've been seeking

1377
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:44,840
out I've been seeking out various Protestant sources and Catholic

1378
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:49,319
sources for you know, during this mass conversion of Orthodoxy.

1379
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,239
Maybe why you shouldn't convert, just because I'm curious to

1380
01:23:52,239 --> 01:23:54,520
see their arguments, And yeah.

1381
01:23:54,319 --> 01:23:55,640
Speaker 3: I think we should be aware of all that. I

1382
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:56,600
think that's a good thing to do.

1383
01:23:57,439 --> 01:24:00,079
Speaker 40: I actually had a little conversation with Redeem zo U

1384
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,840
in the DMS, and I just wanted to ask. He

1385
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:10,640
mentioned that Oriental Orthodoxy is more quote unchanged than Eastern Orthodoxy,

1386
01:24:11,079 --> 01:24:13,600
and he never really elaborated. Do you know what he

1387
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:14,359
might mean by that?

1388
01:24:16,159 --> 01:24:19,239
Speaker 4: Uh, he's probably just referring to some thing he heard

1389
01:24:19,279 --> 01:24:21,359
somebody say. I don't think he knows anything about any

1390
01:24:21,399 --> 01:24:21,960
of that stuff.

1391
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 41: Yeah, that makes sense to me.

1392
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:28,359
Speaker 40: Another thing he mentioned was was Palamism, and I noticed

1393
01:24:28,359 --> 01:24:30,680
there's a lot of a lot of people who take

1394
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,960
issue with Gregory Palamas. I don't really know why that is.

1395
01:24:35,039 --> 01:24:38,920
Do you know why all these different Protestants really don't

1396
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:39,399
like Gregory.

1397
01:24:40,279 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 4: A lot of people are speaking from ignorance, and they

1398
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,479
don't know that the Compadocians teach the essen Sentergi stinction.

1399
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:48,279
They don't know that Althanatius teaches the ssen sentert sinction.

1400
01:24:49,079 --> 01:24:52,159
Sat Sterrihal teaches it explicitly. He talks about the energies

1401
01:24:52,159 --> 01:24:56,119
that are not the essence. I mean, you can't really

1402
01:24:56,119 --> 01:24:58,119
even have the real presence in the Eucharist without the

1403
01:24:58,319 --> 01:25:02,840
sentergy sinction, because you're don't necessarily have a created grace,

1404
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,640
a created God in the eu Christ which doesn't exist

1405
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:07,560
or doesn't things that created God, or you're going to

1406
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:09,479
be getting the divine esdence if you believe in absolute

1407
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:12,359
divine simplicity, so the only the essence interestinction can make

1408
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:16,119
sense of the Eucharist. Looks like it's going to be

1409
01:25:16,159 --> 01:25:28,159
another Taylor Swift song, Michelle, I'm mute. Why are you

1410
01:25:28,199 --> 01:25:29,960
raising your hand when I just told you to I'm mute?

1411
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:31,640
Speaker 42: Were you speaking to me?

1412
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:32,680
Speaker 1: Jay?

1413
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:33,319
Speaker 5: Okay?

1414
01:25:33,399 --> 01:25:36,319
Speaker 42: Sorry, I think there's a pause between sometimes we request

1415
01:25:36,359 --> 01:25:39,479
and when you tell us to speak, So I apologize. Yeah,

1416
01:25:39,479 --> 01:25:43,439
I just had thanks for your spaces. I pride myself

1417
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:46,119
in being able to comprehend pretty well, but I usually

1418
01:25:46,119 --> 01:25:48,640
have to listen to your recorded spaces and take notes

1419
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:51,000
and kind of go over it again. So thanks for

1420
01:25:51,079 --> 01:25:55,840
recording them. I was in Jerusalem last year, long story short.

1421
01:25:55,840 --> 01:26:00,479
It was in emphesis and Jerusalem actually left October sixth, believe.

1422
01:26:00,279 --> 01:26:00,600
Speaker 6: It or not.

1423
01:26:01,039 --> 01:26:03,560
Speaker 42: And while I was there, I just I prayed for

1424
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,159
the Lord to really reveal himself and to send people

1425
01:26:07,199 --> 01:26:11,720
who were true seekers of the truth to me. Orthodox

1426
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,520
priests approached me again, long story short, while I was

1427
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:18,439
in the Holy sepulcher and said, hey, God told me

1428
01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:21,199
that you wanted to pray with me, and it was

1429
01:26:21,279 --> 01:26:24,880
just wild. Then when I went to Ephesus, almost the

1430
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:28,239
exact same thing happened. To me, so really diving in

1431
01:26:28,279 --> 01:26:31,680
and studying all this, but on a side I don't know,

1432
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:36,680
conspiracyal note, do you think or believe that this pope,

1433
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,159
being the first Jesuit pope, is the last pope? And

1434
01:26:40,279 --> 01:26:42,560
do you have any videos or discuss any of the

1435
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:44,439
Jesuit influence upon the Catholic Church?

1436
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 43: Thank you?

1437
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:50,399
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, this is a topic I love to go

1438
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:53,119
into and I rarely get asked about it. So the

1439
01:26:53,199 --> 01:26:55,800
greatest book for this is actually written by a traditional

1440
01:26:55,840 --> 01:26:59,439
Roman Catholic. His name is David Wimhoff, and he wrote

1441
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:05,119
nadam page book called John Courtney John Courtney Murray, Timelife

1442
01:27:05,159 --> 01:27:09,680
Magazine and the Doctrinal Warfare proposition CIA's influence in the

1443
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:13,960
Cali Church using the Jesuits, particularly John Courtney Murray. That's

1444
01:27:14,039 --> 01:27:17,359
obviously more of a twentieth century analysis, particularly Vatican two,

1445
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:21,680
in the post Vatican two era soft power usage of

1446
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,479
the Cali Church by the American deep state. It's a

1447
01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:28,479
really really well researched, le well referenced. I mean has

1448
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:32,239
I think eight hundred foot notes. So Wemoff's book is

1449
01:27:32,279 --> 01:27:37,079
probably the best, absolute perfect book on the topic. I

1450
01:27:37,159 --> 01:27:41,039
have lectured about seven or eight hours on that book

1451
01:27:41,119 --> 01:27:43,640
on my YouTube channel, and so if you just look

1452
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,880
up Jesuits, Cia, OSS wm Off, you'll get all of those.

1453
01:27:49,399 --> 01:27:53,159
Another good book on this is Operation Gladio by Paul Williams,

1454
01:27:53,199 --> 01:27:56,720
who is also a Catholic who I think is like

1455
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:00,640
a history professor. He wrote on this, and I think

1456
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,279
he's kind of pretty much done with Catholicism after he

1457
01:28:03,319 --> 01:28:06,479
went deep into the Gladio rabbit hole. But Gladio also

1458
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:09,279
is adjacent to all this through the Jesuits too. It

1459
01:28:09,279 --> 01:28:12,319
doesn't it's not explicitly about Jesuits, but it's about the

1460
01:28:12,319 --> 01:28:15,600
CIA's connection to the Vatican Bank and all that. Written

1461
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,319
by and again another Catholic who's not a quote conspiracy theoristy,

1462
01:28:18,359 --> 01:28:21,479
he's a professor. So those are two that deal more

1463
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:25,680
recently with that. In road to the Roman Catholic Church.

1464
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,159
I think that there's a lot of kind of low

1465
01:28:28,239 --> 01:28:31,520
tier Seven Day Aventists type people that are idiots. They

1466
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:34,279
think that the Jesuits around the world that stuff's really stupid.

1467
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:36,800
But the Jesuits do have a role to play in

1468
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:40,840
kind of influencing the Roman Catholic Church to be what

1469
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:45,159
it is nowadays with this hyper liberalization, especially with Francis.

1470
01:28:45,159 --> 01:28:48,720
I think Francis is really the the ultimate example of that.

1471
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:51,800
And you know, he was already kind of allied with

1472
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:55,439
the CIA in Operation Condor, and it's so you know,

1473
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:59,239
if you follow his trajectory, it really makes there's no

1474
01:28:59,319 --> 01:29:03,600
surprise there that he would, you know, be friends with

1475
01:29:04,359 --> 01:29:07,479
all the people from Davos. You know, his mentor is

1476
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,720
one of Klaus's best friends from you know, World Economic Forum.

1477
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,640
He promotes the United Nations the World Economic Forum values

1478
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,880
and ideas. So I think it's pretty transparent nowadays. If

1479
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,279
you talked about this a while back, you know, this

1480
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:23,000
was this is all you're crazy, it's crazy, coup plant.

1481
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:26,000
But all this stuff is actually pretty well documented. It was,

1482
01:29:26,159 --> 01:29:29,439
it was in all the geopolitical literature. Just a lot

1483
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,199
of people don't know about it. I think that's more

1484
01:29:32,239 --> 01:29:37,479
important than even you know, the origins of Ignacious, Loyola

1485
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:38,600
and the Jesuit Order.

1486
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:40,279
Speaker 3: I mean, all that stuff is interesting, it's.

1487
01:29:40,079 --> 01:29:44,479
Speaker 4: Fascinating, and they have a curious history. I wouldn't be

1488
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:50,119
surprised if Ignacious' model of spiritual exercises wasn't borrowed from

1489
01:29:50,199 --> 01:29:51,359
his esoteric days.

1490
01:29:53,079 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 3: So for those that don't know.

1491
01:29:54,920 --> 01:30:02,119
Speaker 4: Uh, Ignacious Loyol of the before he converted to Catholicism,

1492
01:30:02,279 --> 01:30:06,039
was involved in some kind of esoteric group. I don't

1493
01:30:06,079 --> 01:30:08,840
They weren't the Illuminati, but they called themselves something like

1494
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:11,239
the Illuminatos or the Enlightened Ones.

1495
01:30:11,159 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 3: Or something like that.

1496
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,319
Speaker 4: And I'm not even saying that that necessarily means his

1497
01:30:15,359 --> 01:30:19,359
conversion wasn't genuine. I mean, he could have been fully genuine,

1498
01:30:19,399 --> 01:30:24,800
but regardless, he did bring a lot of those spiritual

1499
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,800
practices quote unquote into the Jesuit order, and then that

1500
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:33,520
became something that was very useful for cell networks and

1501
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:34,680
intelligence networks.

1502
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 3: So there's a long history to this, Brandon, it was a.

1503
01:30:51,199 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 44: I did a quick question, well a two part question.

1504
01:30:55,560 --> 01:31:00,119
So the first one is given the chaos of the

1505
01:31:00,159 --> 01:31:08,760
early Church prior to the Nice Scene Council, and I

1506
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:13,520
suppose I've heard this on Joe Rogan's podcast, but do

1507
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:18,000
you think there's any credibility to this idea that the

1508
01:31:18,079 --> 01:31:23,520
early Church might have incorporated psychedelics in their Eucharist? And

1509
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,800
as a follow up question, do you think there's any

1510
01:31:26,359 --> 01:31:30,039
spiritual value to the use of psychedelics.

1511
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,239
Speaker 4: No, I don't think there's anything incredible at all about that.

1512
01:31:36,079 --> 01:31:39,920
John Aleegro was kind of rejected and kicked out of

1513
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:43,199
academia when he proposed the theory some decades ago. It's

1514
01:31:43,279 --> 01:31:45,720
kind of just seen still as a quack theory. I

1515
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,520
don't think there's really anything in Christianity at all amenable

1516
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:53,880
to or consistent with pollucinogenics. I mean, even even Alvis Toxley,

1517
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:59,359
who wrote about superiority of pollucinogens to bread and wine

1518
01:31:59,359 --> 01:32:03,079
and the Eucharist, didn't think that there was anything hallucinogenic

1519
01:32:03,119 --> 01:32:09,000
about Christianity's notion of the Eucharist. And there could be,

1520
01:32:09,359 --> 01:32:13,920
you know, some usage for extreme cases of people with extreme.

1521
01:32:15,079 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 3: Like I had a friend.

1522
01:32:16,159 --> 01:32:19,359
Speaker 4: Who was an extreme alcoholic and drank himself to death,

1523
01:32:20,159 --> 01:32:23,479
and I would have said maybe in his case, like,

1524
01:32:24,319 --> 01:32:26,600
since he was at the point of almost dying, like,

1525
01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:27,840
might as well.

1526
01:32:28,239 --> 01:32:32,640
Speaker 3: Try some kind of you know whatever.

1527
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 4: However, they do the therapy with you know, aohuasc or whatever,

1528
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:41,119
which sometimes works for people who have extreme addictions.

1529
01:32:41,399 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 3: So maybe in extreme cases, but no, I don't think

1530
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:50,000
generally speaking, human beings should be trying to have spiritual

1531
01:32:50,000 --> 01:33:05,399
experiences with hallucinogens. Rhodesian chet Hanks, Hey J.

1532
01:33:06,319 --> 01:33:10,199
Speaker 45: Sorry, my audio kind of went out. One interesting thing

1533
01:33:10,239 --> 01:33:13,000
you mentioned about Huxley, and I think why Orthodox should

1534
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:16,359
always avoid psychedelics is you put your trust in them.

1535
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:20,119
I think Huxley died tripping. He like asked for a

1536
01:33:20,119 --> 01:33:23,640
bunch of acid on his deathbed. Yeah, thanks, so yeah,

1537
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,239
so I mean that kind of summarizes it well anyway,

1538
01:33:26,319 --> 01:33:26,680
thank you.

1539
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting point.

1540
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:36,319
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I think when Orthodox saints and

1541
01:33:36,359 --> 01:33:37,319
elder's comments on.

1542
01:33:37,279 --> 01:33:40,239
Speaker 3: This, they talk about it like, Okay, yeah, you.

1543
01:33:40,279 --> 01:33:46,600
Speaker 4: Might be opening your you know, noetic faculties to the

1544
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:49,640
spiritual realm when you do that, but that doesn't mean

1545
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:51,680
that you're ready for the spiritual realm, and that doesn't

1546
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:57,159
mean that it's the approved method for looking into the

1547
01:33:57,199 --> 01:34:00,239
spiritual realm either, which is why it can, you know,

1548
01:34:00,319 --> 01:34:04,079
terrify you and drive you insane. I'm not saying that everybody.

1549
01:34:04,119 --> 01:34:06,560
I've done hallucinogen, so I'm well aware of how it works,

1550
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,479
and not everybody who trips goes insane. But it's sort

1551
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:12,119
of like, I don't know, it's like playing spiritual roulette

1552
01:34:12,199 --> 01:34:14,920
or something like you could go and say, Henry, what's up?

1553
01:34:26,119 --> 01:34:41,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, seth, good, Yes.

1554
01:34:43,079 --> 01:34:44,560
Speaker 32: I've got a question.

1555
01:34:46,119 --> 01:34:50,520
Speaker 46: So I'm I'm kind of a person, but I'm like

1556
01:34:51,359 --> 01:34:54,960
ninety percent of my way to deciding to become an

1557
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:55,840
Eastern Orthodox.

1558
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:58,159
Speaker 32: But I have a question about ikons.

1559
01:35:00,279 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 46: Sure, I mean, so it's explained as windows to the divine, right, Yeah,

1560
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:13,640
but I'm curious as to like, what do they reveal

1561
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:15,680
that scripture doesn't.

1562
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,880
Speaker 4: Well, they're essentially the same type of revelation as scriptures,

1563
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:25,880
So in a sense, what they reveal that scripture doesn't

1564
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:29,640
would be the facts and the history and the lives

1565
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:32,159
of the saints who lived after the scriptures.

1566
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:34,239
Speaker 3: So that's one thing they reveal.

1567
01:35:34,279 --> 01:35:36,520
Speaker 4: I mean, Gregory Poulomas is a saint and he's not

1568
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:39,319
in the Bible, So it reveals to us things about

1569
01:35:39,359 --> 01:35:40,239
saints after.

1570
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:41,319
Speaker 3: The time of the apostles.

1571
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,039
Speaker 4: Even the icons that are, you know, scenes of even

1572
01:35:45,039 --> 01:35:48,439
the icons that are the scenes of like biblical imagery,

1573
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:52,119
like the the Theophany or christ Baptism. I mean, those

1574
01:35:52,319 --> 01:35:56,399
icons are the same messages and meaning of the Bible.

1575
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:59,600
It's just a different medium or firm because written texts

1576
01:36:00,159 --> 01:36:02,359
are not the only way in which God speaks to us.

1577
01:36:02,399 --> 01:36:05,920
Because God created the beauty of the natural world. God

1578
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:09,119
wanted his Temple in Jerusalem to be beautiful and full

1579
01:36:09,159 --> 01:36:14,560
of iconography, and so God is just also fine with

1580
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:19,039
revealing himself and truths about himself and his people through

1581
01:36:19,319 --> 01:36:23,199
icons and through beauty and not just through written texts.

1582
01:36:23,279 --> 01:36:28,520
Speaker 46: Yeah, and I know icon veneration is quite like it's

1583
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:36,680
a big thing. But besides polycarphs like bones that could

1584
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:41,760
be considered venerated, like what other examples like in the

1585
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:43,760
early days would they be?

1586
01:36:46,039 --> 01:36:46,279
Speaker 3: Well?

1587
01:36:46,319 --> 01:36:50,039
Speaker 4: For example, all the early churches, even in the catacombs,

1588
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:51,399
have altars and had.

1589
01:36:51,279 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 3: The eucharists on the altars.

1590
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:54,920
Speaker 4: So if you go to the catacombs in Rome, you'll

1591
01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:58,880
see the altars when the church was persecuted down in

1592
01:36:59,079 --> 01:37:02,840
the catacomb, and even when the basilicas began to be

1593
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:08,640
converted after Roman, after Catholicism was no longer persecuted. The basilicas,

1594
01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:12,439
which are houses like fancy houses that you know senators

1595
01:37:12,439 --> 01:37:16,439
and elite Roman you know senators used to live in

1596
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:19,720
or whatever like, when they converted the houses into churches,

1597
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:24,000
they would set up barriers or communion rails, which means

1598
01:37:24,039 --> 01:37:26,199
that not everybody had access to the eucharists. So that

1599
01:37:26,239 --> 01:37:28,920
itself tells you that there's a reverence for the euchrost itself.

1600
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:33,640
So the Eucharist is the icon part excellence that Protestants

1601
01:37:34,279 --> 01:37:38,039
and people who you know, criticize this point always missed.

1602
01:37:38,039 --> 01:37:40,600
They don't understand, well, the euchroust itself is that, but

1603
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:43,880
the altar itself is holy, and the altar itself is

1604
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:47,359
what became a tradition for the Church to put relics in.

1605
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:50,199
So this is an ancient, you know, early church tradition

1606
01:37:50,319 --> 01:37:54,880
to put relics in the altar. And then the cross

1607
01:37:55,159 --> 01:37:58,119
quite naturally became something that was venerated very early in

1608
01:37:58,159 --> 01:38:01,760
the church. The monastics were doing the sign of the

1609
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:05,119
Cross very early in church tradition. So all of these

1610
01:38:05,119 --> 01:38:11,960
things show the principle, including holy water two of sacramental theology,

1611
01:38:12,079 --> 01:38:15,199
which is the very point and the purpose behind iconography.

1612
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,760
So people miss all of that and they don't even

1613
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,119
look at It's.

1614
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:20,640
Speaker 3: Like, well, howk them.

1615
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:24,359
Speaker 4: There weren't giant icons put up everywhere in the second

1616
01:38:24,399 --> 01:38:27,680
third century. You mean, because the church was in the catacombs.

1617
01:38:28,039 --> 01:38:30,880
But guess what, when you go on the catacombs, there's imagery.

1618
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:33,840
I've been to the catacombs in Rome, and I've only

1619
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:37,039
been to one of them there everywhere, and they have imagery,

1620
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:39,600
so they have pictures of Jesus, they have pictures of

1621
01:38:40,039 --> 01:38:44,000
Bible scenes. If you go to the Dura Europo Synagogue,

1622
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:48,039
it has images and iconography everywhere on the walls.

1623
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,159
Speaker 32: Okay, cool, thanks, that's so logic.

1624
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1625
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:55,359
Speaker 4: I have a video where I discussed this, and I

1626
01:38:55,359 --> 01:38:59,239
actually go into a Protestant liturgical historian, Hugh Wiber's book

1627
01:38:59,239 --> 01:39:03,560
Byzantine Liturgy. The first chapter of that book refutes all

1628
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:06,760
the Gavin Ortland stuff and the James White stuff. I've

1629
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:10,720
shared that probably twenty times on Twitter. Go watch my

1630
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:14,960
video that's like twenty minutes refuting Gavin Ortland on icons.

1631
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:17,000
I think it's like a twenty minute video. All I

1632
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:20,560
do is cite Protestant liturgical historians. So I don't know

1633
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:24,720
why I'm not dissing you. It's just like it's like

1634
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:25,199
the same.

1635
01:39:25,359 --> 01:39:30,600
Speaker 3: This is like stuff like kicks up for whatever reason.

1636
01:39:30,920 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 4: And if people are like, oh, everybody's arguing over something

1637
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:38,960
that we've been making videos about for like seven years.

1638
01:39:38,039 --> 01:39:40,800
Speaker 3: Like go watch all the videos already made on this Darius.

1639
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:41,239
What's up?

1640
01:39:43,279 --> 01:39:45,560
Speaker 4: In fact, maybe I can find that video and put

1641
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:48,079
it underneath this for you guys, because I know everyone

1642
01:39:48,159 --> 01:39:52,600
is too lazy to actually find a video. No one

1643
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:56,000
knows how to use search functions anymore. So it's about

1644
01:39:56,000 --> 01:39:58,079
the fourth one that comes up when I search for it.

1645
01:39:58,119 --> 01:39:59,840
So I'm gonna put it under here for you guys.

1646
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:07,159
Speaker 3: Go ahead, did it my churn? Yes, sir.

1647
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:10,199
Speaker 25: Oh, hey, mister Dyer. I just want to say I

1648
01:40:10,239 --> 01:40:13,680
appreciate you and your your work. It's been very helpful.

1649
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:17,680
My friend has helped me converting to decent Orthodoxy. I

1650
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,520
actually graduated from Master's University, and I've had a lot

1651
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:25,920
of questions and I actually asked John MacArthur at a

1652
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:29,119
Q and A myself, which is, I'll give you permission

1653
01:40:29,199 --> 01:40:33,199
to uh not permission to call me on the video

1654
01:40:33,239 --> 01:40:35,039
at a Q and A about the Master dem Nada.

1655
01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:38,359
So there's a video of it. I don't know if

1656
01:40:38,359 --> 01:40:40,399
you can d M me or something. I can't send

1657
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:46,319
you the link, but I wanted to ask more about

1658
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:52,239
the the Nestorianism with the mass uh maskedev nada. I

1659
01:40:52,239 --> 01:40:55,479
think that's how you pronounce it. I'm having.

1660
01:40:56,840 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 3: Notorianism.

1661
01:40:58,399 --> 01:41:01,520
Speaker 25: Yeah, yeah, I've watched I've watched videos, a lot of them.

1662
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:03,720
I watched all of them, but I'm still having trouble

1663
01:41:04,319 --> 01:41:10,279
like understanding it are like the has to put it

1664
01:41:10,279 --> 01:41:11,760
in my own words of.

1665
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:15,279
Speaker 4: Wow, okay, hold on, hold on, So let's let's distinguish

1666
01:41:15,359 --> 01:41:15,720
some things.

1667
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:17,560
Speaker 3: So can you mute? It's really loud, so just meet

1668
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:22,359
for a second. Oh, I apologize, It's okay, it's me

1669
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:26,399
for a second. Okay.

1670
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 4: So mass Damnata is an Augustinian teaching based on his

1671
01:41:31,119 --> 01:41:35,000
reading of Romans five, that all human beings are in

1672
01:41:35,159 --> 01:41:38,800
Adam as in an archetype. He speaks of this explicitly,

1673
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:41,680
for example, in the City of God. I've lectured through

1674
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:43,479
the entirety of the City of God and we covered

1675
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:44,960
the sections where he talks about this.

1676
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:47,680
Speaker 3: The idea is that basically.

1677
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:50,039
Speaker 4: We all not only send in Adam, but we were

1678
01:41:50,039 --> 01:41:53,199
also guilty in Adam because we were in his loins

1679
01:41:53,239 --> 01:41:55,520
as in an archetype, in him, like in a kind

1680
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:58,840
of neoplatonic way. So that means that when an infant

1681
01:41:58,880 --> 01:42:01,560
is born or from sect from the second of conception,

1682
01:42:02,199 --> 01:42:04,479
the infant is not only liable to the effects of

1683
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,800
original sin, he's also guilty of original sin and thus

1684
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:11,760
liable to full on damnation and torments.

1685
01:42:12,199 --> 01:42:13,960
Speaker 3: So that's what mass damnotomys.

1686
01:42:14,239 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 4: And the only people who get out of that in

1687
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:20,920
the Augustinian system are those who are not just predestined,

1688
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:24,079
but in this life come to the church, come to

1689
01:42:24,119 --> 01:42:29,399
the font, get baptized, and persevere until the end, and

1690
01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:31,880
thus demonstrate that they were one of the elects. So

1691
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:34,319
you have that's why he wrote a treatise called on

1692
01:42:34,399 --> 01:42:38,000
the Gift of Perseverance. But he also wrote other books

1693
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:41,399
on operative and cooperative grace, et cetera, none of which

1694
01:42:42,159 --> 01:42:45,560
is consistent with the Calvinist teaching, because Augustine did not

1695
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:48,840
believe ultimately in an invisible church. He believed that the

1696
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:52,960
visible church has a visible structure that is unified, it

1697
01:42:53,039 --> 01:42:56,800
is singular, it has the means of grace alone through

1698
01:42:56,920 --> 01:43:00,760
the sacraments. He believed in praying for dead, He believed

1699
01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:02,840
in all the things that we believe. He doesn't believe

1700
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:06,079
the things that the Calvinists believe, So that's mass damnata.

1701
01:43:06,239 --> 01:43:12,920
Nasaurianism is a different situation where the patriarchal Constantinople started

1702
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,439
teaching that Mary is not the mother of God, meaning

1703
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:18,279
that the person that she gave birth to was not

1704
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:21,119
the divine person of the word, the second person of

1705
01:43:21,119 --> 01:43:24,760
the Godhead, but rather that there's a dual subject going

1706
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:27,920
on in the life of Christ, where at times it

1707
01:43:28,039 --> 01:43:31,840
is the subject Jesus of Nazareth, who's a human subject,

1708
01:43:32,079 --> 01:43:34,479
and at other times it's the second person that God had,

1709
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:37,800
the logos, who is speaking and revealing himself in the gospels.

1710
01:43:38,119 --> 01:43:41,760
And so when Nastorius is condemned at Ephesus, he's condemned

1711
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:47,199
for a dual subject Christology, that saying Cyril writes about extensively.

1712
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:49,520
So those are two separate topics, but I'm happy to

1713
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:50,439
address either one.

1714
01:43:52,319 --> 01:43:53,720
Speaker 25: I appreciate that, brother, Thank you.

1715
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 3: So what was the question about mass Dunn and John MacArthur.

1716
01:44:00,239 --> 01:44:03,560
Speaker 25: I was Oh, I asked him. Uh, I asked him

1717
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:08,039
back in twenty twenty one. I went to the pulpit,

1718
01:44:08,399 --> 01:44:11,199
you know, because I grew up not reform, but whatever.

1719
01:44:11,279 --> 01:44:14,359
I asked him, was there a break in the trinity?

1720
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:18,800
Because you know, you just said, Father, Father, why have

1721
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:21,600
you forsaken me? And I was expressing and I asked

1722
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:25,039
him like, how wasn't there a break because it seems

1723
01:44:25,159 --> 01:44:29,319
like it and in the video, I don't know. You

1724
01:44:29,399 --> 01:44:32,600
can go to my Facebook or something like that if

1725
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,760
you search up my name. In the video, he says

1726
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:40,039
basically that yes, there was a separation.

1727
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:43,079
Speaker 3: And then wow, that's awesome. Find that.

1728
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 25: So yeah, if you I don't know, can you DM

1729
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:48,720
on Twitter or something, I can give it to you.

1730
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 4: Well, why don't you just post it underneath this thread here,

1731
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:54,760
put it as a comment and I'll play that on

1732
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:57,720
the live stream or something. But yeah, that's different. So

1733
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:01,279
mauth da'maa is the Augustinian doctrine. The argument that I

1734
01:45:01,359 --> 01:45:06,279
make about penal substitutionary atonement is that the Classical Reformation tradition,

1735
01:45:06,439 --> 01:45:09,520
when they interpret the text my God, My God, why

1736
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:12,680
have you forsaken me? All the Classical Reformers believe that

1737
01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:17,560
Jesus of Nazareth was damned on the cross, and so

1738
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:20,319
if you believe he's a divine person, you split the

1739
01:45:20,359 --> 01:45:24,720
trinity because damnation means a severance from the presence, love

1740
01:45:25,279 --> 01:45:28,760
and unity of God and divine life. So you're saying

1741
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:31,039
that the second person of the God had was severed

1742
01:45:31,119 --> 01:45:35,239
from the divine love, unity and presence of the Father,

1743
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:40,159
which is impossible. It's anti Trinitarians stupid, But Calvinists don't

1744
01:45:40,159 --> 01:45:44,359
care about Trinitarian theology. They'd rather do their steriology first,

1745
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:46,359
and if that screws up the.

1746
01:45:46,399 --> 01:45:48,399
Speaker 3: Trinity down the road, who cares? Right.

1747
01:45:49,079 --> 01:45:54,520
Speaker 4: But in the Orthodox position, seteriology is downstream from triadology.

1748
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:56,560
Speaker 3: It's the other way around. It's the reverse.

1749
01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:58,560
Speaker 4: And that's why no Calvinists will ever be able to

1750
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,640
win a debate when it comes to the monarchical trinity

1751
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:03,760
versus their stupid heterodox trinity.

1752
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:16,760
Speaker 3: Often. Hey j how are you fine with that?

1753
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 47: Hey?

1754
01:46:18,119 --> 01:46:20,880
Speaker 3: So, I just had a quick question about epistemology.

1755
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:23,880
Speaker 48: From some of your videos I've watched, I've seen that

1756
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:29,640
you don't just allow claims, so you want epistemological justification

1757
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:32,840
for things. But also at the same time, i've heard

1758
01:46:32,920 --> 01:46:35,840
you say, well a lot of claims kind of have

1759
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:41,640
at the base level, kind of like epistemological circularity.

1760
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:45,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. I literally just addressed this about twenty minutes ago.

1761
01:46:45,359 --> 01:46:51,199
Go ahead, okay, I'll tune back in. Fine, you can

1762
01:46:51,279 --> 01:46:53,479
ask a question again, Go ahead, okay.

1763
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,880
Speaker 48: So, like, if I wanted to say something like, well,

1764
01:46:56,960 --> 01:46:59,800
I know I'm a conscious being, like there is consciousness,

1765
01:47:00,479 --> 01:47:03,359
I mean I can't in your world. I want to

1766
01:47:03,399 --> 01:47:06,359
be able to say that's self evident. And if not, like,

1767
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:09,199
how would I justify something like that.

1768
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:14,640
Speaker 4: Right, So, I mean, the first point is that anybody

1769
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:20,600
who doesn't want to believe in recursive, you know, paradigm

1770
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:24,119
level questions being self referencing, they're going to, most likely

1771
01:47:24,239 --> 01:47:25,800
ninety nine percent of the time they're going to be

1772
01:47:26,079 --> 01:47:29,920
some form of foundationalist in terms of epistemology. And if

1773
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:33,520
you're a foundationalist, you're gonna have to deal with their

1774
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:36,600
criterion problem. You're gonna have to deal with how we

1775
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:39,359
know what's self evident and why is that self evident?

1776
01:47:39,399 --> 01:47:43,159
Which is going to rely on some prior principle that

1777
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:46,680
susses out the non self evident from the self evident.

1778
01:47:47,119 --> 01:47:48,680
Speaker 3: And if the self evident things.

1779
01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 4: Rely on a principle which teases out the self evident

1780
01:47:52,039 --> 01:47:54,720
and non self evident, then it's no longer self evident

1781
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:58,199
because it's relying on another principle because by definition, self

1782
01:47:58,239 --> 01:48:01,439
evident principles can't rely on other truths or other things.

1783
01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:03,800
If you watch the Trent Horn debate, the whole debate

1784
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:07,079
ended up being about things that were self evident. So yeah,

1785
01:48:07,119 --> 01:48:09,159
so a person who disagreed with tag or the way

1786
01:48:09,199 --> 01:48:11,920
that we approach epistemology, they could go in the direction

1787
01:48:12,159 --> 01:48:15,840
of denying that all world views are at a fundamental

1788
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:19,039
level self referencing or recursive. But they're in an even

1789
01:48:19,159 --> 01:48:23,199
more difficult box if they do that, because now they're

1790
01:48:23,239 --> 01:48:25,199
going to have to give an account for the criterion

1791
01:48:25,319 --> 01:48:28,920
problem and the principles of self evidence, which is.

1792
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:30,039
Speaker 3: Going to be a nightmer.

1793
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:34,159
Speaker 48: Okay, thank you, I'll go back and I'll watch the

1794
01:48:34,199 --> 01:48:36,880
Trent Horn debate, and then as so, what was your.

1795
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:39,720
Speaker 3: Question about consciousness? Like what was it? So you just

1796
01:48:39,960 --> 01:48:41,279
you're just repeating the cards that you.

1797
01:48:41,319 --> 01:48:44,079
Speaker 48: Mean, Well, no, it wouldn't be because I watched you

1798
01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:47,079
debate te Dump, and I remember te Dump wanted to

1799
01:48:47,159 --> 01:48:49,840
do the whole cartesian I think therefore I am.

1800
01:48:50,359 --> 01:48:53,159
Speaker 3: But you put into question that Trent Horn did the

1801
01:48:53,199 --> 01:48:53,600
same thing.

1802
01:48:55,239 --> 01:48:57,239
Speaker 48: I didn't watch the Trent Horn, but I remember what

1803
01:48:57,359 --> 01:48:59,439
you you brought up with Tea Dump is that hey,

1804
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:04,479
Bertrand Russell has a critique of the coquito, which is like,

1805
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:08,319
there's a jump to a being or an eye, but nonetheless,

1806
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:11,920
like Corre, I do think there there there is not

1807
01:49:12,079 --> 01:49:16,479
necessarily an eye, but there is experience. And if I

1808
01:49:16,560 --> 01:49:20,239
wanted to justify that experience, can I say that it's

1809
01:49:20,279 --> 01:49:22,399
self evident or what I need to be more.

1810
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:24,359
Speaker 4: I'll just cut it. I'll just cut it out. Even

1811
01:49:24,399 --> 01:49:27,520
easier and even better than version of Russell's critique. If

1812
01:49:27,560 --> 01:49:29,880
you look at cons critique of the coke e toe,

1813
01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:33,520
he says, if you say I think therefore I am,

1814
01:49:34,359 --> 01:49:37,640
I am, or I exist, that's a time determination.

1815
01:49:38,359 --> 01:49:40,039
Speaker 3: You have not proven time yet.

1816
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:43,800
Speaker 4: Your argument assumes the existence of time, and so therefore

1817
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:46,479
the cogito is not self evident. By the way, the

1818
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:49,720
coketo has been savage by philosophers ever since. They cart

1819
01:49:50,159 --> 01:49:52,439
pointing out how it relies on all kinds of things,

1820
01:49:53,079 --> 01:49:56,039
not just time, and not just the false non sequit

1821
01:49:56,119 --> 01:50:00,079
or conclusions or eyes. But it also assumes sentences and

1822
01:50:00,159 --> 01:50:02,319
propositional meaning, which it hasn't demonstrated yet.

1823
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:09,479
Speaker 48: Interesting, So, I mean, is there not necessarily proving an

1824
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:11,920
eye like an independent self? Is there a way to

1825
01:50:12,399 --> 01:50:17,760
epistemologically kind of demonstrate that there is conscious experience outside

1826
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:18,680
of just saying well it's self.

1827
01:50:19,079 --> 01:50:21,640
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think the strongest argument is const argument

1828
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:25,239
that it's a transcendental category, which he calls the unity

1829
01:50:25,239 --> 01:50:27,640
of apperception, which is the self for the knower I mean,

1830
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:30,880
in other words, for the possibility of perception, you have

1831
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:32,720
to have a nowherre or self. But that would be

1832
01:50:32,760 --> 01:50:36,199
a transcendental argument, that would not be a Kantian self

1833
01:50:36,239 --> 01:50:37,439
evident axiom.

1834
01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 48: And that's the unity of ap ap procession.

1835
01:50:42,039 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 3: You said ap perception.

1836
01:50:44,159 --> 01:50:48,680
Speaker 4: That's just Kant's famous terminology for a unified experience that

1837
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:51,760
a self or a knower is having. So basically, Kant

1838
01:50:51,920 --> 01:50:54,520
is just saying that in order to have a meaningful world,

1839
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,359
or a meaningful life, or a meaningful experience, there must

1840
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:04,880
be some unifying thing or substrate that is connecting all

1841
01:51:04,920 --> 01:51:09,079
of these disparate experiences in your daily life. And so

1842
01:51:09,399 --> 01:51:11,840
for that to be the case, it's obviously not going

1843
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:15,520
to be proven in since experience since it's not under

1844
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:17,319
the purview of since experience.

1845
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:19,319
Speaker 3: So where is it? How is it? How wo do

1846
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:19,720
we know it?

1847
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:21,800
Speaker 4: It's a perfect example of one of the things that

1848
01:51:22,439 --> 01:51:26,199
calls a transcendental category, which is assumed in any act

1849
01:51:26,279 --> 01:51:29,960
of knowing. So to have a meaningful experience presupposes a

1850
01:51:30,199 --> 01:51:33,640
what he calls a transcendental unity of a perception. That's

1851
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:37,319
just fancy word for a conscious mind of self a knowwhere.

1852
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:41,520
Speaker 48: Okay, cool, Yeah, I'm going to look into that. It's

1853
01:51:41,560 --> 01:51:44,680
something I've been thinking about a lot. And then after this,

1854
01:51:45,119 --> 01:51:48,760
like little chat log is closed. Can I go back

1855
01:51:48,800 --> 01:51:50,159
on Twitter and like rewind it?

1856
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 26: Just so?

1857
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 3: Okay?

1858
01:51:53,039 --> 01:51:53,279
Speaker 44: Cool?

1859
01:51:53,359 --> 01:51:56,000
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. Jay. I appreciate that question.

1860
01:51:56,399 --> 01:52:24,840
I appreciate those are good questions. Andre. What's up man, Colin?

1861
01:52:28,039 --> 01:52:33,159
I'm you, Hey, Jay, what's up? Man?

1862
01:52:34,039 --> 01:52:34,199
Speaker 44: Yeah?

1863
01:52:34,279 --> 01:52:36,760
Speaker 49: Go ahead, Hey dude, I had a quick question for you.

1864
01:52:37,079 --> 01:52:39,359
It might be fairly simple, but I was thinking about

1865
01:52:39,399 --> 01:52:42,720
this the other day. Could you elaborate on the Orthodox

1866
01:52:43,239 --> 01:52:48,000
perspective on who Melchizedek is in Genesis fourteen?

1867
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 48: Is he?

1868
01:52:49,640 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 3: I wrote a buff back article on it.

1869
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:56,840
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, cool, I'm just beating it because it's loud,

1870
01:52:57,479 --> 01:53:02,239
but I appreciate your out of the mouth of babes. Yeah,

1871
01:53:02,239 --> 01:53:06,199
Melchizedek is an actual Old Testament person.

1872
01:53:06,319 --> 01:53:10,960
Speaker 3: He's not Jesus. He's a type of Jesus, and he

1873
01:53:11,159 --> 01:53:16,439
is spoken of as the King of Salem.

1874
01:53:16,640 --> 01:53:18,760
Speaker 4: He's a priest king of Salem, which makes him a

1875
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:20,880
type of Christ, being the ultimate priest king.

1876
01:53:25,000 --> 01:53:32,159
Speaker 3: Maybe we should I'm sorry, We're trying to park and

1877
01:53:32,239 --> 01:53:34,800
it's like bad traffic here, so I keep getting distracted.

1878
01:53:36,199 --> 01:53:39,359
Speaker 4: So yeah, he was actually the king of Jerusalem, because

1879
01:53:39,399 --> 01:53:42,319
Salem is Zion, David explains in the Psalms.

1880
01:53:43,039 --> 01:53:46,039
Speaker 3: And so what this means is that if you believe Genesis,

1881
01:53:46,119 --> 01:53:53,239
then it's telling you that uh Salem or the city

1882
01:53:53,279 --> 01:53:56,600
of Zion, was actually the city of the righteous before

1883
01:53:56,800 --> 01:53:57,520
the Jews.

1884
01:53:57,359 --> 01:54:00,319
Speaker 4: Existed in the sense of Abraham. So Abraham is beginning

1885
01:54:00,359 --> 01:54:03,119
of quote Judaism because he's the first to.

1886
01:54:03,199 --> 01:54:04,279
Speaker 3: Be called in that way.

1887
01:54:06,239 --> 01:54:09,319
Speaker 4: And God calls Abraham not because no one else in

1888
01:54:09,359 --> 01:54:12,840
the world believed in God, but rather Abraham goes to

1889
01:54:13,600 --> 01:54:19,199
the righteous gentile priest king Malchisedek and ties to him,

1890
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:23,239
which shows the superiority of the Melchizedekian priesthood over the

1891
01:54:23,359 --> 01:54:26,760
Ironic And this is why in Hebrew seven Paul uses

1892
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,359
this as a powerful argument for the superiority of Christianity,

1893
01:54:30,399 --> 01:54:33,960
which is the Melchizedekian priesthood amongst its bishops, priests.

1894
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:34,199
Speaker 3: And laity.

1895
01:54:35,199 --> 01:54:41,239
Speaker 4: That priesthood supersedes and transcends the ironic priesthood because it

1896
01:54:41,359 --> 01:54:46,359
is superior, although even the ironic priesthood is also a

1897
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:47,560
type of christ.

1898
01:54:50,039 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 31: Joseph, go ahead, hey, Jack, you hear me?

1899
01:55:27,319 --> 01:55:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? Hey.

1900
01:55:29,079 --> 01:55:30,960
Speaker 50: First of all, I want to say I've been listening

1901
01:55:31,119 --> 01:55:34,359
for a couple of years, and I love just the

1902
01:55:34,439 --> 01:55:37,359
way you break things down and your movie your movie reviews,

1903
01:55:37,439 --> 01:55:40,199
all that stuff. So I love your debates everything. I

1904
01:55:40,279 --> 01:55:43,720
love everything there is. Yeah, no problem, no problem, it's

1905
01:55:43,760 --> 01:55:44,359
really good stuff.

1906
01:55:46,319 --> 01:55:47,439
Speaker 8: Let me ask you. And I've heard you.

1907
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:48,279
Speaker 3: I've heard you.

1908
01:55:50,079 --> 01:55:52,520
Speaker 50: With other people like if someone comes to you who's

1909
01:55:52,680 --> 01:55:56,000
who comes from a partisant background, which it is more

1910
01:55:56,079 --> 01:55:59,880
on solo sola scripture, and they want to debate you

1911
01:56:00,279 --> 01:56:04,079
or have a discussion with you on the Bible, you

1912
01:56:04,239 --> 01:56:07,720
kind of cut their legs off. And you I've heard

1913
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:09,359
you do this before. I don't know if you're still

1914
01:56:09,479 --> 01:56:11,560
doing this. It's been a couple of months. As i've

1915
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:14,279
heard you, maybe you changed your augmentation, maybe, but I've

1916
01:56:14,319 --> 01:56:17,720
heard you say things like, well, who brought the Bible?

1917
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:20,319
Who gave you the Bible? And that's kind of your

1918
01:56:20,359 --> 01:56:22,079
way to cut the legs off.

1919
01:56:22,399 --> 01:56:24,319
Speaker 4: So I want to know I never see using that

1920
01:56:24,479 --> 01:56:27,159
argument because it's a classic one as one of the

1921
01:56:27,199 --> 01:56:28,439
ones that helped convert me.

1922
01:56:29,239 --> 01:56:31,720
Speaker 50: Now, okay, now, so my next question is because I

1923
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:36,199
have I feel like I have a response to that argument.

1924
01:56:36,279 --> 01:56:37,479
So I want to see what you think I want

1925
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:39,760
to see what you're what your answer is? I guess

1926
01:56:40,199 --> 01:56:41,399
so wouldn't that be?

1927
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:42,640
Speaker 3: Well, no, that's fine.

1928
01:56:42,680 --> 01:56:45,319
Speaker 4: You can always bring you know, challenges and responses like that.

1929
01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:47,800
But could you give me just a couple of minutes

1930
01:56:47,920 --> 01:56:50,479
because I meant the gas station and I had to

1931
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:52,520
use the bathroom and I got to get a water.

1932
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 3: So can you hold on for maybe a minute or two? Yeah,

1933
01:56:55,960 --> 01:59:16,840
so just give me a second? Okay, go ahead. Man,

1934
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:21,640
I'm back on the corner all right, so I think

1935
01:59:21,800 --> 01:59:24,560
can you hear me? Yeah?

1936
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:25,279
Speaker 5: All right?

1937
01:59:25,920 --> 01:59:28,920
Speaker 50: So, like I said before, when someone comes to you

1938
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:32,079
and it kind of wants to argue the debate what

1939
01:59:32,159 --> 01:59:34,680
the Bible says before you you even get into that

1940
01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:36,560
conversation with them, and you kind of try and cut

1941
01:59:36,600 --> 01:59:38,359
their legs off from the beginning and say, well, who

1942
01:59:38,399 --> 01:59:39,079
brought you the Bible?

1943
01:59:39,319 --> 01:59:40,600
Speaker 3: This and that X Y Z. Okay?

1944
01:59:40,640 --> 01:59:40,840
Speaker 5: Cool?

1945
01:59:41,079 --> 01:59:44,199
Speaker 50: And let me ask you, isn't isn't that? Isn't that

1946
01:59:44,399 --> 01:59:47,680
technically committing the fallacy of composition where you're saying, okay,

1947
01:59:47,800 --> 01:59:51,760
because the Orthodox Church brought this, that means they have

1948
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:53,640
the truth now and everything going forward.

1949
01:59:54,079 --> 01:59:54,840
Speaker 10: You see what I'm saying.

1950
01:59:55,239 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 50: Isn't that the fallacy of composition to assume that the

1951
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:01,760
Orthodox Church, just because they that God used them to

1952
02:00:01,840 --> 02:00:05,520
bring the truth of scripture to everybody, that now that

1953
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,479
every teaching they have now is true.

1954
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:12,439
Speaker 4: You to say what I'm saying, Well, no, the argument

1955
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:18,359
is not that because the Canon was put together by

1956
02:00:18,439 --> 02:00:21,319
the Church that therefore everything that they believe or say

1957
02:00:21,359 --> 02:00:21,600
is true.

1958
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:23,079
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't even have to concede that.

1959
02:00:24,199 --> 02:00:27,159
Speaker 4: All I have to do is show that the Protestant

1960
02:00:27,279 --> 02:00:32,079
epistemic grounds for knowing the Canon and trying to enforce

1961
02:00:32,199 --> 02:00:34,439
the Canon doesn't work for Protestantism.

1962
02:00:37,199 --> 02:00:39,600
Speaker 3: In other words, and let me let me explain why

1963
02:00:39,680 --> 02:00:40,199
that would be the.

1964
02:00:40,239 --> 02:00:43,039
Speaker 4: Case, because, for example, a Roman Catholic might make the

1965
02:00:43,119 --> 02:00:47,079
same argument, right, so a Protestant. A Protestant might say

1966
02:00:47,119 --> 02:00:50,000
back to me, well, okay, so maybe I admit that

1967
02:00:50,439 --> 02:00:54,479
you know the church quote unquote of history is indispensable

1968
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:59,680
for the determination and knowledge and decision of the Canon.

1969
02:01:00,479 --> 02:01:03,920
Speaker 3: But why Orthodoxy over Rome is ALSOSM. So no, I don't.

1970
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:07,479
Speaker 4: I don't think the argument that argument alone necessarily proves orthodoxy,

1971
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:10,600
except that you have to go deeper into it and

1972
02:01:10,760 --> 02:01:14,720
point out that, well, actually, the Roman Catholic arguments is

1973
02:01:14,840 --> 02:01:17,159
not much better because they just argue that is whatever

1974
02:01:17,199 --> 02:01:20,520
the pope decided at the Council of Rome under Pope Damasis.

1975
02:01:21,039 --> 02:01:23,079
Speaker 3: But that just assumes that papalism is true.

1976
02:01:24,119 --> 02:01:26,680
Speaker 4: The rest of the Church had a fluctuating and varying

1977
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:29,560
canon for centuries, even up into the Seventh Council.

1978
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:31,680
Speaker 3: So I don't understand.

1979
02:01:31,920 --> 02:01:34,359
Speaker 4: So if that, if the church was papal, they weren't

1980
02:01:34,399 --> 02:01:37,079
listening to Damasis about what the canon.

1981
02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:42,079
Speaker 3: Was, right, I see. So let's so let me ask

1982
02:01:42,119 --> 02:01:43,199
you all I all.

1983
02:01:43,119 --> 02:01:43,560
Speaker 6: I need to do.

1984
02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:46,560
Speaker 4: All I have to do is just demonstrate that tradition

1985
02:01:47,560 --> 02:01:52,600
and a living body of people with normative authority are

1986
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:55,800
absolutely necessary even to know what the written Word of

1987
02:01:55,840 --> 02:01:57,800
God is, and that undercos Protestancy.

1988
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:01,520
Speaker 50: So so okay, so this okay, So this is another

1989
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:02,439
question happening.

1990
02:02:02,479 --> 02:02:02,720
Speaker 3: Okay.

1991
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:07,119
Speaker 50: So if if that's what orthodox theology is claiming, if

1992
02:02:07,159 --> 02:02:11,800
the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is able to

1993
02:02:13,359 --> 02:02:15,479
if we're able to come to the knowledge of God

1994
02:02:16,039 --> 02:02:21,039
without the Orthodox Church proper, what doesn't that defeat that argument?

1995
02:02:21,079 --> 02:02:21,239
Speaker 30: Though?

1996
02:02:21,439 --> 02:02:24,199
Speaker 50: If I'm able to come to a lot of truth

1997
02:02:25,640 --> 02:02:28,159
by reading the scriptures, just me alone with the Lord

1998
02:02:28,800 --> 02:02:32,159
wouldn't that doesn't that undercut that argument then?

1999
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:32,800
Speaker 5: Right?

2000
02:02:32,920 --> 02:02:36,119
Speaker 4: I say, we're saying, well, there's a difference in scripture

2001
02:02:36,199 --> 02:02:37,720
between different types of knowledge.

2002
02:02:38,359 --> 02:02:41,319
Speaker 3: So for example, you can have rational.

2003
02:02:42,479 --> 02:02:47,640
Speaker 4: Diological knowledge of something, or you could have factual knowledge

2004
02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:51,000
of something and not have intimate knowledge of the thing.

2005
02:02:51,119 --> 02:02:51,279
Speaker 3: Right.

2006
02:02:51,359 --> 02:02:53,319
Speaker 4: So like when the scriptures say that Adam and even

2007
02:02:53,359 --> 02:02:56,079
knew Adam knew his wife Eve, Right, that's a different

2008
02:02:56,119 --> 02:02:59,840
type of knowing than just having, like I know of

2009
02:03:00,079 --> 02:03:02,760
the person. So no, I would say that Protestants can

2010
02:03:03,000 --> 02:03:08,079
have a knowledge of Jesus and a knowledge of those things.

2011
02:03:09,079 --> 02:03:11,079
If God has his own ways by which he can

2012
02:03:11,159 --> 02:03:13,640
reach a Protestant, he can do that. But it's not

2013
02:03:13,880 --> 02:03:16,800
because of Protestantism. It's in spite of Protestanism, or it's

2014
02:03:16,840 --> 02:03:20,039
in spite of Catholicism, because it's ignoring the fact that

2015
02:03:20,159 --> 02:03:23,199
it's ignoring whether or not God set up an institution

2016
02:03:24,199 --> 02:03:27,439
by which he wanted people to connect to him, namely

2017
02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:27,920
the Church.

2018
02:03:28,920 --> 02:03:30,159
Speaker 31: So let me ask you, so what did it?

2019
02:03:31,079 --> 02:03:33,319
Speaker 50: That's a good it's a good answer, So let me

2020
02:03:33,359 --> 02:03:35,960
ask you what can I give that same answer though

2021
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:39,399
to Orthodox because if all men are if all men

2022
02:03:39,439 --> 02:03:41,720
are fallible, right, And I know what the Orthodox teaching

2023
02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:43,800
is on, you know, on that type stuff. When they

2024
02:03:43,840 --> 02:03:47,399
agree on a certain issue whatever, you would say that's that.

2025
02:03:47,439 --> 02:03:49,680
You would say that to God speaking even though infallible

2026
02:03:49,680 --> 02:03:51,279
men are making that decision, you would say, the Holy

2027
02:03:51,319 --> 02:03:53,079
Spirit is leading the church correct.

2028
02:03:54,359 --> 02:03:57,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, like when a council is speaking in an ecumenical

2029
02:03:57,439 --> 02:03:59,479
you know, setting with the whole mind of the church

2030
02:04:00,239 --> 02:04:03,840
on issues that are you know, universally agreed upon and

2031
02:04:03,920 --> 02:04:06,720
received eventually by the entire church. It might be unclear

2032
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:09,199
in that generation what that is, but eventually, but over

2033
02:04:09,279 --> 02:04:11,800
time it gets accepted and we know what the mind

2034
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:12,000
of it.

2035
02:04:12,079 --> 02:04:13,079
Speaker 3: And we know the mind of the church.

2036
02:04:13,199 --> 02:04:18,880
Speaker 4: But yes, that's infallible, but not the individual men, I

2037
02:04:19,000 --> 02:04:22,560
see my dutt And by the way, Protestants. Protestants already

2038
02:04:22,600 --> 02:04:26,079
admit this if they think the Bible is infallible, because

2039
02:04:26,079 --> 02:04:29,039
they think that these fallible men came together to make

2040
02:04:29,119 --> 02:04:32,359
at least one infallible decision, namely the Cannon Scripture.

2041
02:04:32,920 --> 02:04:34,199
Speaker 3: Or you go with the RC.

2042
02:04:34,319 --> 02:04:37,000
Speaker 4: Sproul route of saying that it's a fallible collection of

2043
02:04:37,039 --> 02:04:38,680
infallible books, which is self refuting.

2044
02:04:40,039 --> 02:04:42,960
Speaker 50: I guess I come from an evangelical background, and I've

2045
02:04:43,039 --> 02:04:47,800
been just really reading, reading, reading scripture, reading scripture, watching

2046
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:50,520
a lot of y'all's videos. I mean, I've watched hundreds

2047
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:54,520
and hundreds of debates on various topics, and I personally

2048
02:04:54,600 --> 02:04:56,800
find that you are the best debater that i've heard.

2049
02:04:57,159 --> 02:05:00,720
I mean, just be honest, yeah, I personally, I mean,

2050
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:04,159
your arguments are even if you're even if you're in

2051
02:05:04,319 --> 02:05:06,840
the wrong, I mean, you can debate your out of it,

2052
02:05:06,920 --> 02:05:09,399
like it's just that I see.

2053
02:05:09,560 --> 02:05:10,760
Speaker 3: I'm not saying you are wrong.

2054
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:12,840
Speaker 8: I'm just saying that that's.

2055
02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:14,760
Speaker 3: How good you are, that you know that you can

2056
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:16,720
do that. So let me give you I'm gonna hold on,

2057
02:05:16,840 --> 02:05:17,159
so hold on.

2058
02:05:17,199 --> 02:05:21,960
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna re share a couple screenshots.

2059
02:05:23,159 --> 02:05:24,640
Speaker 3: Hopefully I can find the other one here.

2060
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:29,319
Speaker 4: That give you an example from Protestant scholars of how

2061
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:37,319
elaborate the decision of the canon was, and it gives

2062
02:05:37,359 --> 02:05:40,199
you a window into this so to where hopefully we

2063
02:05:40,239 --> 02:05:43,680
can realize that like the Canon of Scripture wasn't like

2064
02:05:43,840 --> 02:05:50,560
it's it's centuries of variations and differences and debates and disputes,

2065
02:05:51,439 --> 02:05:55,640
and that alone means that Christians were not operating on

2066
02:05:55,720 --> 02:05:59,520
the principle of solar scriptura for all those centuries. So

2067
02:05:59,680 --> 02:06:02,560
why would we be accepting a doctrine of quote sola

2068
02:06:02,600 --> 02:06:07,800
scriptura when God clearly was saving these people, you know,

2069
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:10,439
during these times without sous.

2070
02:06:10,680 --> 02:06:11,359
Speaker 3: Does that make sense?

2071
02:06:11,479 --> 02:06:11,600
Speaker 5: Right?

2072
02:06:12,239 --> 02:06:13,319
Speaker 3: No, it makes perfect sense.

2073
02:06:13,319 --> 02:06:16,039
Speaker 50: And that and that's where what you were saying, God

2074
02:06:16,159 --> 02:06:19,119
is using Catholics in spite of themselves. God's using process

2075
02:06:19,119 --> 02:06:20,000
in spite of themselves.

2076
02:06:20,600 --> 02:06:21,199
Speaker 5: Is it? Can I?

2077
02:06:21,319 --> 02:06:23,119
Speaker 50: Can I not make the same critique and say that

2078
02:06:23,239 --> 02:06:27,159
God is always working Whenever God's word is shared, It's

2079
02:06:27,239 --> 02:06:29,800
never gonna return void no matter who is give.

2080
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:30,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2081
02:06:30,159 --> 02:06:33,000
Speaker 4: But again, but but to whom much is given, much

2082
02:06:33,159 --> 02:06:35,600
is required. And so the more knowledge that you have,

2083
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,199
the more culpable you are, as Jesus says. And so

2084
02:06:38,319 --> 02:06:40,920
if you do know about these things and have the

2085
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:43,720
ability to, uh, you know, find an orthodox church.

2086
02:06:43,880 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 3: Let me give you another example, like underneath, then you're

2087
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:47,560
more liable.

2088
02:06:47,680 --> 02:06:48,079
Speaker 9: So I just.

2089
02:06:48,199 --> 02:06:50,439
Speaker 3: Retweeted right now. Uh.

2090
02:06:50,600 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 4: This is a page from Lee McDonald's book Formation of

2091
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:56,680
the Christian Biblical Canon, and it's the page where he

2092
02:06:56,760 --> 02:07:01,159
talks about how Revelation was not even and considered the

2093
02:07:01,279 --> 02:07:06,720
Bible in Rome until affinacious went and convinced the Bishop

2094
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:10,920
of Rome that Revelation and Hebrews and other texts were

2095
02:07:11,039 --> 02:07:15,000
actually should be included in the cannon. So what this

2096
02:07:15,119 --> 02:07:18,399
shows us is that this is not like they're not

2097
02:07:18,600 --> 02:07:21,760
operating on sola scriptura. If they're debating what things go

2098
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:25,319
into it, that proves they were not Protestants. They did

2099
02:07:25,359 --> 02:07:28,680
not operate on sola scriptura, and thus sol scriptura is

2100
02:07:28,760 --> 02:07:29,199
not true.

2101
02:07:29,239 --> 02:07:31,039
Speaker 3: That's one of the key pillars of Protestants.

2102
02:07:31,239 --> 02:07:33,840
Speaker 4: Just read this page right here from a Protestant scholar

2103
02:07:34,600 --> 02:07:38,760
on how instrumental the fallible human decisions and argumentation of

2104
02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:42,000
Afthenacious were about what books went in the Bible.

2105
02:07:42,640 --> 02:07:44,399
Speaker 50: So, Jay, how are you sharing these pages so I

2106
02:07:44,439 --> 02:07:47,279
can see? I'm sorry, I'm driving, I have the phone.

2107
02:07:47,840 --> 02:07:49,800
Speaker 3: I literally just so it should be the top of

2108
02:07:49,840 --> 02:07:51,920
my wall. I just sweet at the Regent.

2109
02:07:53,680 --> 02:07:55,920
Speaker 4: By the way, I also wrote, if you scroll down

2110
02:07:56,079 --> 02:07:59,640
a little bit, I reposted my two essays on the

2111
02:07:59,720 --> 02:08:02,600
dude cannon from like ten years ago, fifteen years ago.

2112
02:08:03,640 --> 02:08:05,760
Speaker 50: Gotcha love to that. Well, I don't want to take

2113
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:07,279
up too with your time, man, but this, I know

2114
02:08:07,359 --> 02:08:08,079
that was a great question.

2115
02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:10,199
Speaker 3: Appreciate it, man.

2116
02:08:10,239 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 4: Just scroll down to uh Reputation of the Protestant Canon

2117
02:08:14,000 --> 02:08:16,399
Part one and Reputation of the Protestant Canon Part two.

2118
02:08:17,079 --> 02:08:19,159
Maybe I'll scroll down and find him and retweeting or

2119
02:08:19,199 --> 02:08:21,399
something superhero.

2120
02:08:27,680 --> 02:08:29,039
Speaker 30: Hey, Hello, can you hear me?

2121
02:08:29,319 --> 02:08:30,600
Speaker 8: Stir Hey, dear dar.

2122
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:32,560
Speaker 3: I just want to say thank you for the opportunity

2123
02:08:32,560 --> 02:08:33,159
to be able to talk.

2124
02:08:33,720 --> 02:08:34,680
Speaker 5: Huge supporter man.

2125
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:37,399
Speaker 51: I've been following for quite a while and to love

2126
02:08:37,479 --> 02:08:39,840
all your debates, especially as the ones that you do

2127
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:43,560
with Sam Schmann got logic. But I have a I

2128
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:47,239
grew up Protestant, actually Pentecostal, obviously Protestantism.

2129
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:50,239
Speaker 52: I have a like one or two questions real quick.

2130
02:08:50,399 --> 02:08:54,359
So my parents are like, you know, like I said,

2131
02:08:54,399 --> 02:08:57,199
I grew up Pentecostal. Personally, I feel like the Holy

2132
02:08:57,239 --> 02:08:58,920
spiritsmen leading me to the Orthodox Church.

2133
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:03,640
Speaker 3: But like a lot of that, it's just been like,

2134
02:09:03,760 --> 02:09:06,600
you know, me doing my own uh my own I

2135
02:09:06,640 --> 02:09:09,239
guess devor with Christ and like studying.

2136
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:09,479
Speaker 6: And stuff like that.

2137
02:09:10,199 --> 02:09:13,800
Speaker 53: I want to ask you, uh what, like can you

2138
02:09:14,159 --> 02:09:17,840
can you give me like biblical uh I guess or

2139
02:09:17,920 --> 02:09:21,600
scripture to support like tradition and stuff like that.

2140
02:09:24,399 --> 02:09:25,560
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean there's a bunch.

2141
02:09:26,039 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 4: I have an article that I wrote called the Biblical

2142
02:09:30,119 --> 02:09:33,560
case for tradition. So go to my website, Jayson Elsins

2143
02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:36,439
dot com and then just look up a Biblical case

2144
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:39,960
for tradition and that will give you multiple texts to

2145
02:09:40,119 --> 02:09:40,600
discuss it.

2146
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:43,000
Speaker 54: Uh.

2147
02:09:43,039 --> 02:09:47,239
Speaker 4: Oh, it's guys, trying to get over here. We're about

2148
02:09:47,239 --> 02:09:50,000
to get crushed by some honest so trying to several lives.

2149
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:53,560
But yeah, I mean there's there's quite a few. I mean,

2150
02:09:53,600 --> 02:09:56,399
second Thessalonians too, where Paul talks about, you know, whether

2151
02:09:56,640 --> 02:10:01,079
keep the traditions, whether or oral or written. You know,

2152
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:05,479
Jesus in Matthew twenty three refers to the Cathedra the

2153
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:08,800
seat of Moses. There's nothing in the Bible about the

2154
02:10:08,880 --> 02:10:11,239
Pharisees sitting in a seat of Moses. That's tradition.

2155
02:10:13,039 --> 02:10:13,159
Speaker 5: You know.

2156
02:10:13,239 --> 02:10:16,159
Speaker 4: There's traditions in the New Testament cited where you know,

2157
02:10:16,359 --> 02:10:17,920
Jesus said it's better to give.

2158
02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:18,399
Speaker 3: Than to receive.

2159
02:10:18,880 --> 02:10:21,600
Speaker 4: There's no statement where Jesus says that in the Gospels,

2160
02:10:21,680 --> 02:10:26,039
so that's some kind of tradition. The Gospels themselves and

2161
02:10:26,239 --> 02:10:28,840
their authorship, particularly in the case of Matthew, are known

2162
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:32,159
by tradition. So Matthew doesn't tell you that Matthew the

2163
02:10:32,279 --> 02:10:36,960
Disciple is the author of the text. So that's something

2164
02:10:37,039 --> 02:10:40,199
that is known by church tradition, and that the various

2165
02:10:40,800 --> 02:10:44,520
bishoprics and sees passing down the tradition that Matthew the

2166
02:10:44,640 --> 02:10:48,960
Disciple wrote that, and that's very important for canonicity, right.

2167
02:10:49,079 --> 02:10:51,560
Speaker 3: So I think Protestants overlook this.

2168
02:10:52,159 --> 02:10:55,560
Speaker 4: They think that when I say something like, you can't

2169
02:10:56,000 --> 02:10:59,199
you know, know the canon without the Orthodox Church, a

2170
02:10:59,239 --> 02:11:01,560
lot of times since misunderstand that and they think that

2171
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:04,079
the argument is just, oh, you're just saying that I

2172
02:11:04,159 --> 02:11:09,560
can't understand those books without orthodoxy, or I can't know

2173
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:12,319
what the Bible is without an infallible interpreter.

2174
02:11:12,479 --> 02:11:14,039
Speaker 3: No, No, that's the Roman Catholic argument.

2175
02:11:14,119 --> 02:11:16,880
Speaker 4: I'm making a different argument, which is that you can't

2176
02:11:16,920 --> 02:11:21,800
even know the authorship tradition of the Gospels, which is

2177
02:11:22,039 --> 02:11:26,359
crucial to canonicity, without the tradition of the Church.

2178
02:11:27,319 --> 02:11:29,079
Speaker 3: And once I saw F. F.

2179
02:11:29,159 --> 02:11:34,479
Speaker 4: Bruce, you know, Lee McDonald, all these Protestant evangelical scholars

2180
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:39,000
admitting the role of tradition in the Bible and its

2181
02:11:39,039 --> 02:11:42,119
formation in history, It's like, well, obviously this is not

2182
02:11:42,239 --> 02:11:43,359
the Protestant model, so.

2183
02:11:43,399 --> 02:12:10,000
Speaker 3: This is just not true. Gary, Gary got on you man.

2184
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:16,000
Speaker 30: I can't hear anybody.

2185
02:12:16,960 --> 02:12:19,000
Speaker 3: Jay, Yep, are you there?

2186
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:19,920
Speaker 5: Yeah?

2187
02:12:22,239 --> 02:12:26,640
Speaker 30: Wow, Hey, I was just in the neighborhood.

2188
02:12:28,359 --> 02:12:29,039
Speaker 3: I'll tell your mind.

2189
02:12:29,359 --> 02:12:32,039
Speaker 30: Oh, I just thought i'd say a little something about

2190
02:12:32,079 --> 02:12:34,920
your debate on Calvinism. You know what all these religions

2191
02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:39,680
have in common? What they all believe in the higher

2192
02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:44,319
God or the atheist? Of course, there is no god.

2193
02:12:45,760 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 3: That's profound, bro.

2194
02:12:47,840 --> 02:12:51,439
Speaker 30: And it's interesting that now, Jay, I'm curious you said

2195
02:12:51,439 --> 02:12:55,239
you were even jelical. Is that how you were raised?

2196
02:12:55,920 --> 02:12:55,960
Speaker 15: What?

2197
02:12:56,079 --> 02:12:57,000
Speaker 30: What did you say?

2198
02:12:57,760 --> 02:12:57,800
Speaker 5: What?

2199
02:12:58,640 --> 02:13:01,640
Speaker 3: I can't take the smack into the your dog? No,

2200
02:13:01,760 --> 02:13:04,600
I'm orthodox, Jaron R.

2201
02:13:04,720 --> 02:13:16,199
Speaker 4: Jason, excuse me, you'll notice that James's.

2202
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:16,720
Speaker 22: Hey, Ja, I want to ask what's your opinion on

2203
02:13:16,800 --> 02:13:19,479
Gregory of Nissa and his teaching of universalism?

2204
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:20,560
Speaker 8: Like, what would you say to that?

2205
02:13:22,039 --> 02:13:25,159
Speaker 4: I would say he's wrong about that, and he's wrong

2206
02:13:25,199 --> 02:13:28,840
about gender being a reduced a product of the fall.

2207
02:13:30,760 --> 02:13:33,119
So yeah, many of the church fathers got many things wrong.

2208
02:13:35,319 --> 02:13:35,960
Speaker 26: Thanks, that's it.

2209
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Universal's position is condemned by three councils. Jordan. Hello,

2210
02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:48,399
can you hear me?

2211
02:13:48,520 --> 02:13:48,680
Speaker 5: Jay?

2212
02:13:49,319 --> 02:13:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2213
02:13:50,279 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 55: Awesome, awesome? Uh my name is Jordan. So either questions

2214
02:13:54,159 --> 02:13:57,640
or you had once sit in one of your lives

2215
02:13:57,760 --> 02:14:00,680
or debates that the this is a God is the

2216
02:14:00,760 --> 02:14:02,920
energy of God? How does that make How does that

2217
02:14:03,119 --> 02:14:06,680
make sense? If God is eternal? How is his existence

2218
02:14:07,239 --> 02:14:07,880
and energy?

2219
02:14:08,039 --> 02:14:08,199
Speaker 5: If?

2220
02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:10,920
Speaker 55: And correct me if I'm wrong? Isn't this the energy

2221
02:14:10,960 --> 02:14:12,880
is just the act of God, the acts or the

2222
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:13,960
activities of God.

2223
02:14:16,560 --> 02:14:20,199
Speaker 4: Yes, every predicate though, is an energy because they're an

2224
02:14:20,319 --> 02:14:22,560
energy that we know that's revealed to us, and that

2225
02:14:22,640 --> 02:14:27,920
comes down to us. So God's existence, God's actions, all

2226
02:14:27,960 --> 02:14:31,560
of those are in the Orthodox view energies God.

2227
02:14:31,640 --> 02:14:33,279
Speaker 3: She's okay, So that that does make sense.

2228
02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:37,399
Speaker 4: And yes, he exists from all eternity. His existence is

2229
02:14:37,439 --> 02:14:39,960
an eternal, energetic manifestation.

2230
02:14:41,359 --> 02:14:44,680
Speaker 55: So I guess from like, I guess from there that

2231
02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:48,239
there's something beyond his existence that's in his essence that

2232
02:14:48,359 --> 02:14:49,560
we cannot understand.

2233
02:14:50,279 --> 02:14:53,199
Speaker 4: But that that's yes, it's not in his essence. It

2234
02:14:53,319 --> 02:14:56,359
is the essence that is beyond existence. And that's directly

2235
02:14:56,520 --> 02:15:01,479
from Dionysius himself. Oh understood. Awesome, Thank you so much.

2236
02:15:01,520 --> 02:15:04,000
That that was that was pretty much great questions.

2237
02:15:04,199 --> 02:15:04,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, R.

2238
02:15:04,640 --> 02:15:07,600
Speaker 4: Rate plum Off is a debate with the Marline. I awesome,

2239
02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:11,039
I'm sorry, you can come back. I thought you were

2240
02:15:11,079 --> 02:15:12,079
done balance.

2241
02:15:16,560 --> 02:15:17,039
Speaker 56: Can you hear me?

2242
02:15:18,199 --> 02:15:20,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's up, Jordan? I was inviting you back. I

2243
02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:22,640
didn't realize you were still speaking out that you're done.

2244
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:23,640
You can come back if you want.

2245
02:15:24,119 --> 02:15:27,800
Speaker 1: I have like a two part question, just a shout out.

2246
02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:30,840
I love your work with Alex Jones and stuff like that,

2247
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:35,399
Rachel as well. I see Rachel's here. Her work is nice.

2248
02:15:35,760 --> 02:15:37,960
But my first question is do you have like a

2249
02:15:38,239 --> 02:15:42,560
specific timeline base of how secularism has infiltrated America and

2250
02:15:42,640 --> 02:15:46,319
how that stems from like the UK and in the

2251
02:15:46,399 --> 02:15:49,920
big Banks, the Rothchild set up and there, and the

2252
02:15:50,079 --> 02:15:54,199
work they've been doing to like promote uh. I guess

2253
02:15:54,199 --> 02:15:56,319
you would say degeneracy, but on top of that, like

2254
02:15:56,479 --> 02:15:57,680
world government control.

2255
02:16:00,359 --> 02:16:03,920
Speaker 4: I don't know if there's a specific timeline for secularism,

2256
02:16:04,199 --> 02:16:09,960
because you could argue that the secular realm as an

2257
02:16:10,039 --> 02:16:13,960
idea for the state and for state craft goes back

2258
02:16:14,159 --> 02:16:18,239
arguably to the Protestant Reformation and then the seeds of

2259
02:16:18,319 --> 02:16:20,960
it there and then the French Revolution. So I would

2260
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:25,159
say that the French Revolution is probably the real source

2261
02:16:25,439 --> 02:16:29,159
of the notion of a completely secular realm. That's not

2262
02:16:29,399 --> 02:16:37,040
touched by ethics, morals, or theology outside of human legislation.

2263
02:16:37,680 --> 02:16:40,879
That seems like, I'm pretty sure it's an Enlightenment and

2264
02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:45,760
then French Revolution idea. You could track that though with

2265
02:16:45,959 --> 02:16:50,719
quickly says that the French Revolution was funded by Protestant, Swiss.

2266
02:16:50,479 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 3: And Jewish banking elites.

2267
02:16:52,879 --> 02:16:56,719
Speaker 4: And I would argue that America, as an offshoot of

2268
02:16:56,840 --> 02:17:00,360
the French Revolution already has kind of baked within it

2269
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:04,239
a secularist tendency. But it's, like we were saying on

2270
02:17:04,280 --> 02:17:07,440
the podcast last night with High Hypocrite, my view is

2271
02:17:07,479 --> 02:17:12,200
that America kind of had kind of competing ideologies in it,

2272
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:15,040
So it kind of had elements of Christianity and it

2273
02:17:15,120 --> 02:17:20,639
had elements of Enlightenment secular philosophy. And America was always

2274
02:17:20,719 --> 02:17:23,680
just kind of in this journey to see which road

2275
02:17:23,760 --> 02:17:24,239
it would take.

2276
02:17:24,319 --> 02:17:27,479
Speaker 3: Would it take the path of enlightenment.

2277
02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:30,799
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, Masonic secularism, or would it go in

2278
02:17:30,920 --> 02:17:35,920
a more Christian direction. And it didn't go into Christian

2279
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:43,159
direction precisely because for well, for many reasons. But one

2280
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:46,360
of the other things that's important that I think people

2281
02:17:46,479 --> 02:17:52,239
overlook is that that principle of the free reign of

2282
02:17:52,319 --> 02:17:54,559
the of the state, that it's not under the church

2283
02:17:54,680 --> 02:17:56,879
or connect to the Church, that there that there should

2284
02:17:56,879 --> 02:18:00,600
be a quote secular realm. The Roman callit Church was

2285
02:18:00,639 --> 02:18:03,920
condemning that back in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds

2286
02:18:03,920 --> 02:18:07,360
when they condemned the French Revolution. You had Orthodox writers

2287
02:18:07,399 --> 02:18:11,040
that were condemning it. When the Bolshevik Revolution happened. Probably

2288
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:14,360
Natiev is a great one about he said that you

2289
02:18:14,440 --> 02:18:18,079
don't get an actual secular state, you actually get the

2290
02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:21,399
state of God. So if you remove the church, you

2291
02:18:21,440 --> 02:18:24,120
don't get this you know, free state, you get this

2292
02:18:24,920 --> 02:18:28,280
God state. So quite a few writers have been kind

2293
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:30,079
of pointing that out from any centuries.

2294
02:18:30,159 --> 02:18:31,319
Speaker 3: But I would argue that you.

2295
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:34,000
Speaker 4: Could just depend it on French Revolution and then the

2296
02:18:34,079 --> 02:18:37,799
influence in the West, and then the Roman Catholic Church

2297
02:18:37,920 --> 02:18:42,079
capitulating to the idea of the good of a secular

2298
02:18:42,159 --> 02:18:47,520
state at Vatican Two and their rejection of Christian nation states.

2299
02:18:48,319 --> 02:18:51,280
Speaker 1: Got to Yeah, I've seen the argument like people have

2300
02:18:51,360 --> 02:18:53,959
made with Thomas Jefferson. They're trying to like twist his

2301
02:18:54,079 --> 02:18:57,440
words around, saying like he was trying to separate church

2302
02:18:57,559 --> 02:19:00,280
from like the country basically, but he was based only

2303
02:19:00,360 --> 02:19:02,479
trying to like actually promote the government, not trying to

2304
02:19:02,520 --> 02:19:06,600
pick a specific church to represent the government, because I mean, I.

2305
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:10,319
Speaker 3: Think but Jefferson does have those Enlightenment Jacobin ideas.

2306
02:19:13,040 --> 02:19:13,239
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2307
02:19:13,399 --> 02:19:15,799
Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to like make a case for Thomas Jefferson.

2308
02:19:15,840 --> 02:19:19,799
I was just trying to shift out that what's it called.

2309
02:19:21,840 --> 02:19:23,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a good example of somebody who.

2310
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:28,799
Speaker 4: Is kind of like got both of those kind of

2311
02:19:28,920 --> 02:19:32,440
tensions within him, where yeah there's some there's some quasi

2312
02:19:32,520 --> 02:19:35,559
Christian elements there, but also these Jacobin elements. And then

2313
02:19:35,719 --> 02:19:38,079
unfortunately America went in the direction of the you know,

2314
02:19:38,360 --> 02:19:39,280
the jacob inside.

2315
02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:41,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could see that with like the Founding Fathers.

2316
02:19:41,760 --> 02:19:43,799
I mean, even like George Washington, they were trying to

2317
02:19:43,879 --> 02:19:45,719
go to the realm of I think deism, where they

2318
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:47,159
were trying to say, like there's no such thing as

2319
02:19:47,200 --> 02:19:50,079
miracles and all that stuff, and they were being like

2320
02:19:50,159 --> 02:19:53,879
deists towards Jesus, and I was just I was like

2321
02:19:54,440 --> 02:19:58,200
more or less like trying to like archetypes. Is this

2322
02:19:58,319 --> 02:20:02,399
like a spiritual like thing that's going on and it

2323
02:20:02,559 --> 02:20:04,920
like does it spawn from the Catholic Church or it

2324
02:20:05,079 --> 02:20:07,280
just does just spawn from bad men? From the Catholic

2325
02:20:07,360 --> 02:20:10,120
Church that wanted to use That's.

2326
02:20:11,280 --> 02:20:14,040
Speaker 3: Okay, that's all enlightenment for a Masonic.

2327
02:20:15,799 --> 02:20:16,399
Speaker 56: Perfect Yeah.

2328
02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:18,360
Speaker 1: And then my second question, I'm sorry if this is

2329
02:20:18,399 --> 02:20:20,239
too long, you can boot me if you want. But

2330
02:20:20,639 --> 02:20:22,520
I've been writing a book for the past like three

2331
02:20:22,600 --> 02:20:25,239
years on this like so called spirit of like whatever

2332
02:20:25,239 --> 02:20:28,520
we're talking about. Then this so called narcissism, like enlightenment crap,

2333
02:20:28,879 --> 02:20:31,879
and how that's all connected to like demonic forces and stuff.

2334
02:20:32,239 --> 02:20:33,879
But when I when I go down to the root

2335
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:36,000
cause of this, it comes down to like the Garden

2336
02:20:36,079 --> 02:20:39,440
of Eden and how well you can say per se,

2337
02:20:39,520 --> 02:20:41,360
like the devil was the father of all lives, He's

2338
02:20:41,399 --> 02:20:44,479
the father of evil. But my question it will stem

2339
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:48,440
from that being the sense of like is evil. Evil

2340
02:20:48,520 --> 02:20:50,719
is in the sense of like rejecting God. So with

2341
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:55,040
us being the giving that choice of rejecting God, was

2342
02:20:55,120 --> 02:20:57,360
that does that mean that we were since uh, we

2343
02:20:57,479 --> 02:20:59,600
were created from nothing, and so when we were created

2344
02:20:59,639 --> 02:21:02,239
from nothing and we were given the choice of rejecting

2345
02:21:02,319 --> 02:21:04,760
the truth and love and then picking nothing to be

2346
02:21:05,159 --> 02:21:08,040
like the and that nothing is what transpires him to

2347
02:21:08,120 --> 02:21:10,319
like selfishness and like loving creatures.

2348
02:21:13,600 --> 02:21:16,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, actually, none of the Church fathers do like and

2349
02:21:16,600 --> 02:21:22,120
the choice of vice over virtue to sort of negating

2350
02:21:22,159 --> 02:21:25,520
yourself and choosing non being. So, yeah, I think you

2351
02:21:25,559 --> 02:21:28,959
would find that in Saint Athanasius. You would find that

2352
02:21:29,079 --> 02:21:29,879
in sant Agusta.

2353
02:21:29,879 --> 02:21:33,200
Speaker 3: And that's a that's a pretty common refrain when the

2354
02:21:33,319 --> 02:21:36,239
church fathers are kind of talking about, you know, the

2355
02:21:36,799 --> 02:21:40,719
metaphysical effects of moral evil. Jordans, do you want to

2356
02:21:40,719 --> 02:21:41,440
ask another question?

2357
02:21:42,200 --> 02:21:45,920
Speaker 55: Yeah, I had another question, Thank you for having back on. Also,

2358
02:21:46,319 --> 02:21:49,040
so in the Letter of Especially it's too the Letter

2359
02:21:49,159 --> 02:21:54,959
of Dinitheus that was which is accepted the Council of Jerusalem,

2360
02:21:55,399 --> 02:21:58,280
like the sixteen hundreds. He speaks about in that in

2361
02:21:58,360 --> 02:22:01,280
one of the chapters where he's he uses the word transfer.

2362
02:22:01,360 --> 02:22:05,239
But I've had Protestant friends speak about how he is

2363
02:22:05,360 --> 02:22:09,840
asserting that the Orthodox use that use the exact same

2364
02:22:09,959 --> 02:22:15,200
terminology of transfer. So my question is if that's canon

2365
02:22:15,440 --> 02:22:17,680
or if that's kind of for the entire Orthodox Church?

2366
02:22:18,799 --> 02:22:20,680
Would that not this? Would that not mean that we

2367
02:22:20,799 --> 02:22:25,319
have the exact same understanding of the eucharists except from

2368
02:22:25,440 --> 02:22:27,360
the crease right.

2369
02:22:28,200 --> 02:22:33,399
Speaker 4: So, first of all, those are Western translations of texts,

2370
02:22:34,239 --> 02:22:37,440
and it's fine if we have texts that have the

2371
02:22:37,520 --> 02:22:40,159
word transubstantiation, and if there's no I don't have him

2372
02:22:40,159 --> 02:22:40,559
even have a.

2373
02:22:40,559 --> 02:22:41,399
Speaker 3: Problem with that word.

2374
02:22:42,760 --> 02:22:46,959
Speaker 4: For example, John Damascus in the translations that we have

2375
02:22:47,239 --> 02:22:51,799
of on the Orthodox Faith, use the term transfibstantiation. That

2376
02:22:51,959 --> 02:22:54,959
just means a change of substance in the Eucharist through

2377
02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:56,399
the action of the Church.

2378
02:22:57,239 --> 02:23:00,200
Speaker 3: But the Roman Catholic view is not just that. It's

2379
02:23:00,239 --> 02:23:02,040
not a minuscule view of just that.

2380
02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:06,600
Speaker 4: Like they have a very worked out dogmatic theology of matter, form,

2381
02:23:06,639 --> 02:23:09,639
and intention for any sacrament, so for the sacrament of

2382
02:23:09,680 --> 02:23:14,079
the Eucharist and trans association their ex opera apparato doctrine

2383
02:23:14,159 --> 02:23:17,600
is part of it. Their doctrine of the words of

2384
02:23:17,680 --> 02:23:23,239
consecration is what does it. And that's odd because that

2385
02:23:23,600 --> 02:23:26,920
is separate from the epiclesis so in the Roman Goalthic position,

2386
02:23:27,120 --> 02:23:29,920
they have no notion of an epic liasis that's at

2387
02:23:29,959 --> 02:23:32,840
all relevant or necessary for the confecting of the Eucharist.

2388
02:23:33,360 --> 02:23:36,200
That's not the Orthodox view. It's foreign to the Orthodox mind.

2389
02:23:36,840 --> 02:23:39,879
And for example, that contributes in the Roman Catholic position

2390
02:23:40,159 --> 02:23:46,639
to this idea of eucharists not being communal. It can

2391
02:23:46,719 --> 02:23:49,079
be something that you can do, you know, like the

2392
02:23:49,479 --> 02:23:51,840
Roman Gathic priests can just do like the words of consecration,

2393
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:56,559
and he can always forever. For example, if a Roman

2394
02:23:56,559 --> 02:24:00,319
Catholic priests became a Satanist, he can forever confess and

2395
02:24:00,479 --> 02:24:04,520
blaspheme the Eucharist because he never ceases to be a priest.

2396
02:24:05,360 --> 02:24:08,360
We don't think that that's superstitious. If you leave the faith,

2397
02:24:08,920 --> 02:24:11,879
you're not confecting the Eucharists. It doesn't matter how you know,

2398
02:24:12,239 --> 02:24:15,079
how much magic Roman hokey pokey you think you have.

2399
02:24:16,079 --> 02:24:19,360
And so, for example, that's another area where all of

2400
02:24:19,440 --> 02:24:25,600
the metaphysical baggage that Roman Catholicism dogmatizes about transubstantiation is

2401
02:24:25,719 --> 02:24:30,000
not necessarily contained in the word transubstantiation, which just means

2402
02:24:30,120 --> 02:24:30,920
change of substance.

2403
02:24:31,399 --> 02:24:33,760
Speaker 3: So no believe. We believe there is a real change

2404
02:24:34,239 --> 02:24:38,399
of the bread and wine, and that change becomes body, blood, soul,

2405
02:24:38,639 --> 02:25:07,079
and uncreated energy of Christ. Jason Jason, Yes, sir.

2406
02:25:07,399 --> 02:25:08,120
Speaker 29: Awesome.

2407
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:11,559
Speaker 26: Questions more on then?

2408
02:25:12,360 --> 02:25:14,719
Speaker 32: I know if you are familiar with that, I guess

2409
02:25:14,760 --> 02:25:15,639
what's your opinion on?

2410
02:25:17,760 --> 02:25:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is an I appreciate, it's not it's

2411
02:25:22,159 --> 02:25:24,760
not the topic today. We're not talking to in any fry.

2412
02:25:24,879 --> 02:25:40,440
What's up? Go ahead? Hey?

2413
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:44,479
Speaker 40: I had a geopolitics question kind of similar to something

2414
02:25:44,559 --> 02:25:50,159
a few callers back was saying, all right, uh, something

2415
02:25:50,239 --> 02:25:53,840
you mentioned on the hypercrite stream youuron is the Rothschild

2416
02:25:53,920 --> 02:25:55,680
connection to South Africa.

2417
02:25:55,879 --> 02:25:57,879
Speaker 8: I was wondering what that was about.

2418
02:25:59,200 --> 02:26:01,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, so quickly as a whole section where he talks

2419
02:26:01,840 --> 02:26:03,200
about them funding the Bowler War.

2420
02:26:04,479 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 43: Okay, And I had another related thing.

2421
02:26:07,600 --> 02:26:11,239
Speaker 40: Is it anything of note to point out that Musk

2422
02:26:11,319 --> 02:26:14,040
and Peter Teel are both South African? Should we be

2423
02:26:14,120 --> 02:26:15,920
weary of South African technocrats?

2424
02:26:21,159 --> 02:26:24,280
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily think that there's a direct connection between

2425
02:26:25,040 --> 02:26:29,200
white people in South Africa and technocracy. I wouldn't think so.

2426
02:26:29,479 --> 02:26:33,399
I mean, I don't know exactly why. I mean, Charlie's Thorne,

2427
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:35,559
isn't she from South Africa too? I mean I don't

2428
02:26:35,559 --> 02:26:37,000
think she's a technocrat, So.

2429
02:26:38,799 --> 02:26:40,840
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I don't know the vibe

2430
02:26:40,920 --> 02:26:43,200
and the ethos of the people of South Africa.

2431
02:26:43,319 --> 02:26:45,239
Speaker 4: Like it's like I was saying on on that stream,

2432
02:26:46,360 --> 02:26:48,600
I'm not really well studied on the history of Africa.

2433
02:26:48,840 --> 02:26:50,760
Speaker 3: And I mean I know the A and C is bad.

2434
02:26:50,879 --> 02:26:51,680
I know about.

2435
02:26:54,680 --> 02:26:57,440
Speaker 4: Oh, what's his face? That was in prison forever. He

2436
02:26:57,559 --> 02:27:02,799
was actually working for British intelligence oddly enough, Mandela, Yeah,

2437
02:27:02,879 --> 02:27:04,559
Mandela was actually working in British intelligent.

2438
02:27:04,600 --> 02:27:06,799
Speaker 3: People don't know that. But so I know about some

2439
02:27:06,879 --> 02:27:08,879
of the espionage saft, but like, I don't really.

2440
02:27:08,879 --> 02:27:10,840
Speaker 4: Know a lot of the history of the Boers other

2441
02:27:10,920 --> 02:27:12,559
than the war and all that. Other than that, the

2442
02:27:12,680 --> 02:27:14,040
roth Childs are involved in funding it.

2443
02:27:14,120 --> 02:27:19,040
Speaker 40: According to Quickly, Yeah, that doesn't surprise That doesn't surprise

2444
02:27:19,120 --> 02:27:19,479
me at all.

2445
02:27:20,680 --> 02:27:22,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually kind of surprised. Well, actually, I

2446
02:27:22,399 --> 02:27:24,760
wasn't surprised when you mentioned it, because it's like, well, okay, well.

2447
02:27:24,719 --> 02:27:26,959
Speaker 43: What do they not fund exactly?

2448
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:29,440
Speaker 5: That was it? Though?

2449
02:27:29,479 --> 02:27:31,639
Speaker 3: That was I think I think he mentioned it in

2450
02:27:31,799 --> 02:27:32,520
both books.

2451
02:27:32,559 --> 02:27:34,479
Speaker 4: I think it comes up in both Tragy and Hope

2452
02:27:34,559 --> 02:27:36,879
and in Anglo American Establishment.

2453
02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:38,159
Speaker 3: I think he mentions it in both.

2454
02:27:39,760 --> 02:27:40,799
Speaker 8: I'll have to check that out.

2455
02:27:40,840 --> 02:27:42,719
Speaker 43: I have the book, I just need to actually sit

2456
02:27:42,799 --> 02:27:43,319
down and read it.

2457
02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:50,280
Speaker 4: They were also involved in the debacle over the Suez

2458
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:52,360
Canal because Disraeli was.

2459
02:27:52,360 --> 02:27:56,600
Speaker 3: Their operative hm hmm. Interesting yep.

2460
02:27:57,079 --> 02:28:01,399
Speaker 4: So Disraeli's machinations over the Swiss Canal or at the

2461
02:28:01,479 --> 02:28:02,879
past of the rod Jobs.

2462
02:28:04,079 --> 02:28:12,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, but thank you for the questioning that guys. Tony.

2463
02:28:12,600 --> 02:28:23,879
What's up Tony? Yeah? Help you, yes, sir.

2464
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:26,799
Speaker 30: Yeah.

2465
02:28:26,959 --> 02:28:45,760
Speaker 9: So basically, wait, all right, we're.

2466
02:28:45,600 --> 02:28:50,879
Speaker 4: Gonna move on open topics for Calvinism, Protestism, Catholicism. Do

2467
02:28:50,920 --> 02:28:55,559
you have politics, if you want Islam, atheism. We've still

2468
02:28:55,639 --> 02:28:59,479
got a lot of people in here, three or so so,

2469
02:29:00,079 --> 02:29:01,520
and we already did your questions. I want to give

2470
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:03,879
some other people some opportunity to come up they want to.

2471
02:29:05,079 --> 02:29:06,719
You don't have to debate. If you want to ask

2472
02:29:06,719 --> 02:29:08,639
you a question, you can. But if you do want

2473
02:29:08,639 --> 02:29:10,639
a debate, you go to the head of line. Uh,

2474
02:29:11,239 --> 02:29:15,799
just keep it to those topics. Any atheist, any Muslim,

2475
02:29:15,840 --> 02:29:18,680
any church history, Catholicism, Protestants of Calvinism.

2476
02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:23,200
Speaker 3: Today's your day. You can even make an argument.

2477
02:29:22,959 --> 02:29:25,399
Speaker 4: And presentation as long as you want within reason. If

2478
02:29:25,399 --> 02:29:27,200
you want to refute me, here's your chance. I'll give

2479
02:29:27,200 --> 02:29:28,680
you the mic. You can talk and talk and talk.

2480
02:29:29,159 --> 02:29:30,600
Let me know ahead of time if that's what you'd

2481
02:29:30,639 --> 02:29:35,200
like to do. If not, it's it's.

2482
02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:35,799
Speaker 3: All on y'all.

2483
02:29:39,559 --> 02:29:42,719
Speaker 4: Anybody else any any how are You've got three hundre

2484
02:29:42,719 --> 02:29:47,319
people and nobody wants to talk what y'all doing. It's

2485
02:29:47,360 --> 02:29:52,879
everybody another some Calvinists in here. So we got three

2486
02:29:52,959 --> 02:29:56,559
innre people, Dames White making a big fuss today and

2487
02:29:57,200 --> 02:30:01,360
none of y'all Calvinists. Y'all just want to lurk a lark.

2488
02:30:01,239 --> 02:30:04,040
Speaker 3: And Joseph again. What's up.

2489
02:30:06,200 --> 02:30:06,319
Speaker 5: Now?

2490
02:30:06,319 --> 02:30:07,879
Speaker 3: I've got to Jordan again. Nobody else comes?

2491
02:30:10,840 --> 02:30:11,639
Speaker 10: Hey, Jack, yummy?

2492
02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:13,440
Speaker 5: Hey?

2493
02:30:13,479 --> 02:30:13,799
Speaker 3: All right?

2494
02:30:13,920 --> 02:30:17,680
Speaker 50: So I had another question. So in the Orthodox Church,

2495
02:30:18,159 --> 02:30:22,680
the Eucharist is what saves you. Correct, you guys see

2496
02:30:22,719 --> 02:30:27,280
that as that that's the way of salvation. Baptism and

2497
02:30:27,319 --> 02:30:28,159
then the Eucharist.

2498
02:30:30,520 --> 02:30:32,239
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there's a lot of things that quote

2499
02:30:32,280 --> 02:30:34,239
save you. There's not just one thing that saves you.

2500
02:30:34,360 --> 02:30:37,159
Speaker 4: All the sacraments are involved in your salvation as well

2501
02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:38,600
as you know, the Bible and everything.

2502
02:30:38,680 --> 02:30:40,360
Speaker 50: Okay, got because I don't know why. I just heard

2503
02:30:40,760 --> 02:30:42,799
another Orthodox guy the other day talking about how the

2504
02:30:42,840 --> 02:30:43,840
Eucharist saves you and that.

2505
02:30:46,040 --> 02:30:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean we can say that without it

2506
02:30:47,920 --> 02:30:50,920
being you know, exclusive, right, So it's still true. But

2507
02:30:51,000 --> 02:30:52,920
I mean that doesn't mean it's the only thing. Matt,

2508
02:30:52,959 --> 02:30:54,719
what's up? Hey, what's going on?

2509
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:57,840
Speaker 43: Kind of new to the space here, So are you

2510
02:30:57,920 --> 02:31:00,399
taking a stance in any particular religion. Are you just

2511
02:31:00,840 --> 02:31:02,399
taking questions about any religion?

2512
02:31:02,600 --> 02:31:05,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I defend I defend Orthodox Christianity.

2513
02:31:05,680 --> 02:31:08,479
Speaker 4: So but we can debate, you know, any challenge to

2514
02:31:08,559 --> 02:31:10,920
that position from any of the other positions.

2515
02:31:11,280 --> 02:31:14,760
Speaker 43: Sure, okay, so Orthodox Christianity, that's interesting.

2516
02:31:15,280 --> 02:31:15,399
Speaker 15: Uh.

2517
02:31:15,520 --> 02:31:17,680
Speaker 43: I guess the first question would be, you know where

2518
02:31:17,719 --> 02:31:22,200
exactly does Orthodox Christianity come from? And you know who

2519
02:31:22,239 --> 02:31:26,239
gets to decide what is orthodox? What is the original

2520
02:31:26,319 --> 02:31:28,040
meaning of the religion?

2521
02:31:29,959 --> 02:31:30,520
Speaker 3: Well, I mean the.

2522
02:31:30,719 --> 02:31:34,559
Speaker 4: Historic churches that were set up under the Roman Empire

2523
02:31:34,680 --> 02:31:39,079
in the first second third century by the Apostles their successors,

2524
02:31:39,159 --> 02:31:44,559
who you know, were at the councils of Nicea, Conceptsinople,

2525
02:31:44,680 --> 02:31:48,040
et cetera during the first millennium. So that's what defines

2526
02:31:48,200 --> 02:31:51,760
and that's who defines the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church today,

2527
02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:54,920
that's the canonical Orthodox Catholic Church is the same church

2528
02:31:54,920 --> 02:31:55,479
as that church.

2529
02:31:56,719 --> 02:31:58,239
Speaker 43: Okay, But I guess my point is, how do how

2530
02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:00,600
do we know exactly what they believed in and exactly

2531
02:32:00,680 --> 02:32:04,239
what they taught all these years later because we can

2532
02:32:04,399 --> 02:32:06,280
go read them where.

2533
02:32:08,559 --> 02:32:08,959
Speaker 3: What do you mean?

2534
02:32:09,000 --> 02:32:12,479
Speaker 4: Where you can read Ignatious Clement Cyprian, you can read

2535
02:32:13,120 --> 02:32:14,559
Athenacious Alexander.

2536
02:32:14,680 --> 02:32:17,200
Speaker 3: I mean, these are all pre Nicean Church fathers.

2537
02:32:17,319 --> 02:32:20,680
Speaker 43: So we all so we're basing our entire belief system

2538
02:32:20,719 --> 02:32:23,559
on five guys who we have no idea.

2539
02:32:23,799 --> 02:32:25,440
Speaker 3: No, I.

2540
02:32:26,959 --> 02:32:29,719
Speaker 4: Listed five people who are very famous, known throughout the

2541
02:32:29,879 --> 02:32:32,600
entire world. It's not people that nobody knows who they are.

2542
02:32:32,680 --> 02:32:36,559
They're representative bishops of their time. And then I listed

2543
02:32:36,639 --> 02:32:38,559
the Council of Nicia, which was all the bishops of

2544
02:32:38,559 --> 02:32:40,600
the Roman Empire in three twenty five. So these are

2545
02:32:40,600 --> 02:32:43,159
not nobodies, and they're not people that you can't find.

2546
02:32:43,200 --> 02:32:46,639
They're not obscure people. So, but we don't have the

2547
02:32:46,719 --> 02:32:49,319
original writings of the New Testament.

2548
02:32:49,360 --> 02:32:51,680
Speaker 43: We have copies of copies of copies, So how can

2549
02:32:51,719 --> 02:32:55,920
we really trust any document from antiquity and from the past.

2550
02:32:56,639 --> 02:32:58,440
Speaker 3: Do we just have to put our faith in it?

2551
02:32:58,719 --> 02:33:03,360
Speaker 4: Then, well, the New Testament documents are more well attested

2552
02:33:03,440 --> 02:33:06,799
to than any other ancient and historical document. There's over

2553
02:33:06,920 --> 02:33:09,879
five thousand copies of the New Testament from the first

2554
02:33:09,920 --> 02:33:10,959
few centuries of the church.

2555
02:33:11,799 --> 02:33:12,559
Speaker 3: That may be true.

2556
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:14,840
Speaker 43: There may be more copies of the New Testament than

2557
02:33:14,879 --> 02:33:18,000
any other book, but those other books we don't claim

2558
02:33:18,159 --> 02:33:20,920
to be written or inspired by God.

2559
02:33:21,399 --> 02:33:22,719
Speaker 3: So I guess that's the big difference.

2560
02:33:22,799 --> 02:33:25,120
Speaker 4: Well, that's just that was just a reputation of your

2561
02:33:25,159 --> 02:33:28,200
first assertion that it's not well attested to. It is

2562
02:33:28,280 --> 02:33:31,159
well attested to better than any other book like Plato

2563
02:33:31,319 --> 02:33:33,319
or Aristotle or anyone else from antiquity.

2564
02:33:33,760 --> 02:33:35,719
Speaker 3: Yes, no, I'm saying that that may be true.

2565
02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:40,200
Speaker 43: But if the Orthodox stance is that it is, again

2566
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:43,639
depending on what you believe, it was inspired by God

2567
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:47,879
or written by God, or however the Orthodox Church says it.

2568
02:33:48,799 --> 02:33:52,319
Then if that's the case, well we don't we don't

2569
02:33:52,399 --> 02:33:56,200
have that original text. And then if God wrote it

2570
02:33:56,360 --> 02:33:58,520
or inspired if God wrote it, or but.

2571
02:33:58,600 --> 02:34:02,040
Speaker 4: That's no, that's your correct, and that we do not

2572
02:34:02,159 --> 02:34:05,559
have what's called autographa. We have later copies of the

2573
02:34:05,639 --> 02:34:08,440
Gospels and Paul's epistles. But that's not how I would

2574
02:34:08,479 --> 02:34:11,440
go about arguing whether the religion is true. I would

2575
02:34:11,520 --> 02:34:13,920
use a more philosophical argument, which is more of a

2576
02:34:14,920 --> 02:34:18,200
more of a worldview level argument than competing claims about

2577
02:34:18,959 --> 02:34:21,559
historicity of the text, because the religion is not ultimately

2578
02:34:21,600 --> 02:34:23,639
even based on the text, because it's the church, the.

2579
02:34:23,639 --> 02:34:25,840
Speaker 3: Community the church that produce the text. So the church

2580
02:34:25,920 --> 02:34:27,000
is even prior to the text.

2581
02:34:27,680 --> 02:34:30,520
Speaker 43: So does the belief in Jesus being the son of God?

2582
02:34:31,239 --> 02:34:34,600
Is that even relevant within Christianity today? Or is Christianity

2583
02:34:34,639 --> 02:34:35,719
more just about a lifestyle.

2584
02:34:36,600 --> 02:34:39,159
Speaker 3: No, that's absolutely fundamental to Christianity.

2585
02:34:39,799 --> 02:34:42,079
Speaker 43: Okay, but how can we know that he was actually God?

2586
02:34:44,600 --> 02:34:46,879
Speaker 4: Well, I would use a transcendental argument to prove that

2587
02:34:47,000 --> 02:34:49,920
the Christian orthodox Christian paradigm is the only paradigm that

2588
02:34:50,000 --> 02:34:53,040
can give an account for knowledge, ethics, and metaphysics.

2589
02:34:55,520 --> 02:34:57,079
Speaker 43: I'm not sure how you how you can prove that.

2590
02:34:57,200 --> 02:35:01,360
I mean, we have no writings from Jesus. Nobody who

2591
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:05,239
wrote the New Testament actually knew Jesus at all.

2592
02:35:05,319 --> 02:35:06,600
Speaker 3: I mean, that's just assuming that.

2593
02:35:07,440 --> 02:35:10,680
Speaker 4: That's assuming that Jesus didn't a point. Apostles who are

2594
02:35:10,719 --> 02:35:14,600
able to write down what Jesus taught and Jesus did

2595
02:35:14,799 --> 02:35:17,239
inspire the Old Testament in our view, so that's not

2596
02:35:17,319 --> 02:35:18,719
even true in terms of the Old Testament.

2597
02:35:18,799 --> 02:35:20,120
Speaker 3: That's all about Jesus as well.

2598
02:35:20,159 --> 02:35:22,959
Speaker 4: From our perspective, what the argument I gave is called

2599
02:35:23,000 --> 02:35:26,000
a transcendental argument that only with the Christian worldview in

2600
02:35:26,120 --> 02:35:29,360
terms of its metaphysics, ethics, et cetera, can give an

2601
02:35:29,360 --> 02:35:31,559
account for things like reason and logic.

2602
02:35:34,639 --> 02:35:36,079
Speaker 3: But yeah, possibly, I mean it depends.

2603
02:35:36,239 --> 02:35:39,959
Speaker 43: There's obviously thousands of different religions that people believe in,

2604
02:35:40,079 --> 02:35:42,719
and you know, I don't claim to understand all of

2605
02:35:42,760 --> 02:35:45,360
them because there's so many, and I'm sure they would

2606
02:35:45,559 --> 02:35:48,959
make the same statements about their own religions.

2607
02:35:49,600 --> 02:35:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's a different thing from actually doing it.

2608
02:35:51,879 --> 02:35:54,559
So what's your what is your perspective, what's your worldview?

2609
02:35:57,440 --> 02:35:57,479
Speaker 5: No?

2610
02:35:57,600 --> 02:35:59,479
Speaker 43: My view is I'm a Christian, but I think that

2611
02:36:00,159 --> 02:36:02,000
there's a lot of I think there's a lot of issues,

2612
02:36:02,040 --> 02:36:03,639
and I think there's a lot of things that people

2613
02:36:03,799 --> 02:36:05,959
just need to be honest about in terms of the

2614
02:36:06,079 --> 02:36:09,639
text and and what it really means in terms of

2615
02:36:10,719 --> 02:36:12,879
how it relates to us all these years later, two

2616
02:36:12,879 --> 02:36:13,639
thousand years later.

2617
02:36:14,799 --> 02:36:16,399
Speaker 4: Well, how could you be a Christian if you don't

2618
02:36:16,399 --> 02:36:17,879
believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that's

2619
02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:21,239
a necessary belief, because that's always been a necessary position

2620
02:36:21,360 --> 02:36:22,000
for Christian No.

2621
02:36:22,239 --> 02:36:24,840
Speaker 43: I didn't state it one way or the other what

2622
02:36:25,000 --> 02:36:28,159
I believe. I was just basically stating stating a point

2623
02:36:29,280 --> 02:36:32,319
because I think a lot of people consider themselves cultural

2624
02:36:32,399 --> 02:36:35,440
Christians now where they don't necessarily believe that, but they

2625
02:36:35,520 --> 02:36:36,559
claim Christianity.

2626
02:36:37,440 --> 02:36:39,520
Speaker 4: But it sounds like the way you were arguing was

2627
02:36:39,600 --> 02:36:41,959
as a cultural Christian or as an atheist.

2628
02:36:42,040 --> 02:36:44,399
Speaker 3: So I'm confused about your position. No, I'm just interested.

2629
02:36:44,520 --> 02:36:50,239
I'm just interested to get your perspective and what's that.

2630
02:36:52,040 --> 02:36:54,239
You won't say your position. No, I'm not going to

2631
02:36:54,280 --> 02:36:54,879
say a position.

2632
02:36:55,840 --> 02:37:00,159
Speaker 43: I just just just like to, you know, just like

2633
02:37:00,200 --> 02:37:02,680
to ask questions and see what people's thoughts are because

2634
02:37:02,719 --> 02:37:04,239
it is it is such an interesting topic.

2635
02:37:05,239 --> 02:37:06,639
Speaker 4: Okay, So let me give you Let me ask you

2636
02:37:06,680 --> 02:37:08,360
a question. What how would you give an account for

2637
02:37:08,520 --> 02:37:09,399
logic and reasoning?

2638
02:37:11,000 --> 02:37:13,120
Speaker 43: An account for logic and reasoning in terms of what

2639
02:37:13,719 --> 02:37:14,559
a specific topic?

2640
02:37:15,840 --> 02:37:18,879
Speaker 3: What is logic and what is the faculty of reasoning?

2641
02:37:19,000 --> 02:37:20,719
And how do we have it? And how does it work?

2642
02:37:20,799 --> 02:37:21,520
And how do you know that.

2643
02:37:23,239 --> 02:37:28,479
Speaker 43: Logic would be something that I could prove using my brain?

2644
02:37:28,639 --> 02:37:35,079
Deductive reasoning, maybe math science, the environment. You know, reasoning

2645
02:37:35,200 --> 02:37:40,399
is the ability to to dissect certain information and create

2646
02:37:40,639 --> 02:37:41,639
a specific outcome.

2647
02:37:42,559 --> 02:37:46,000
Speaker 4: Uh, well, how does using logic prove it? So we

2648
02:37:46,200 --> 02:37:48,600
use all kinds of things that aren't necessarily the case.

2649
02:37:48,680 --> 02:37:52,280
I mean I might utilize, uh, you know, unicorns in

2650
02:37:52,360 --> 02:37:55,719
my narrative story about fiction realms. That doesn't prove that

2651
02:37:55,799 --> 02:37:59,680
unicorns exist. So what why does using a thing mean

2652
02:37:59,719 --> 02:38:00,920
that it's the case.

2653
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Or that it's true.

2654
02:38:04,000 --> 02:38:07,799
Speaker 43: No, I just if you're trying to if you're trying

2655
02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:09,760
to get to the point of using logic, are you

2656
02:38:09,799 --> 02:38:11,600
trying to say, how do we use logic to prove

2657
02:38:13,079 --> 02:38:14,959
what we're talking about is true or false?

2658
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:19,319
Speaker 4: Well, earlier I made the argument that only Christianity can

2659
02:38:19,360 --> 02:38:22,280
give an account for those types of things, and you said, well,

2660
02:38:22,399 --> 02:38:25,399
I'm not sure about that. So I'm illustrating how I

2661
02:38:25,440 --> 02:38:29,000
would go about making that argument by asking you what

2662
02:38:29,159 --> 02:38:32,319
your account is in your worldview for logic as a

2663
02:38:32,399 --> 02:38:35,159
thing itself, and then I'm going to contrast it with

2664
02:38:35,440 --> 02:38:37,719
my perspective in my account of how logic works.

2665
02:38:38,639 --> 02:38:42,360
Speaker 43: Well, quite frankly, I don't think there's anything logical about

2666
02:38:42,840 --> 02:38:46,639
the story. I don't think there's anything logical that really

2667
02:38:46,680 --> 02:38:47,200
makes sense.

2668
02:38:47,360 --> 02:38:51,959
Speaker 4: Well, that's fine, but I'm making a different argument, which

2669
02:38:52,159 --> 02:38:56,479
was about the categories themselves and how we account for them. So,

2670
02:38:56,639 --> 02:38:59,920
for example, if Jesus is the universal principle of reason

2671
02:39:00,200 --> 02:39:03,799
or Logos himself, that's a way to give an account

2672
02:39:03,879 --> 02:39:07,840
for universals and logic, And I'm asking you, if you're

2673
02:39:07,840 --> 02:39:10,120
going to use logic to argue against Christianity that it's

2674
02:39:10,200 --> 02:39:12,440
not logical, what is your account for logic?

2675
02:39:12,520 --> 02:39:12,639
Speaker 9: Then?

2676
02:39:14,719 --> 02:39:16,959
Speaker 43: Well, I think I think that that's an assumption to

2677
02:39:17,079 --> 02:39:20,319
say that he is he is logos or logic.

2678
02:39:22,680 --> 02:39:23,479
Speaker 3: Well, now, wait a minute.

2679
02:39:23,879 --> 02:39:26,360
Speaker 4: The revelation, which you don't accept, even though you said

2680
02:39:26,360 --> 02:39:27,399
you're a Christian, calls.

2681
02:39:27,280 --> 02:39:28,200
Speaker 3: Him that in John one.

2682
02:39:28,319 --> 02:39:35,879
Speaker 43: Right, yes again, but there are you know, many issues obviously.

2683
02:39:35,760 --> 02:39:39,319
Speaker 4: With the new text, So maybe maybe it's all false,

2684
02:39:39,479 --> 02:39:41,200
maybe all the Gospels are false.

2685
02:39:41,440 --> 02:39:44,280
Speaker 3: How does that help you to give an account for

2686
02:39:44,360 --> 02:39:45,079
reason and logic?

2687
02:39:46,360 --> 02:39:50,520
Speaker 43: Well, my, my, my reasoning in logic tells me that

2688
02:39:51,719 --> 02:39:54,120
out of all the people who have ever lived on

2689
02:39:54,280 --> 02:39:54,799
the planet.

2690
02:39:55,360 --> 02:39:58,079
Speaker 4: So you're you're just appealing to You're appealing to the

2691
02:39:58,159 --> 02:40:00,079
thing I asked you to give a justification for.

2692
02:40:00,239 --> 02:40:02,920
Speaker 3: I asked you how logic is the case and how

2693
02:40:03,000 --> 02:40:03,479
you know that?

2694
02:40:04,120 --> 02:40:06,600
Speaker 4: And you're just saying, well, I use logic, yeah, but

2695
02:40:06,639 --> 02:40:08,040
I'm asking you for an account for that.

2696
02:40:08,959 --> 02:40:11,559
Speaker 43: No, that the logic is from a it would be

2697
02:40:11,639 --> 02:40:15,840
coming coming from a historical perspective. So from a historical perspective,

2698
02:40:17,559 --> 02:40:22,840
then you must say then that the miracle of him

2699
02:40:22,879 --> 02:40:27,200
being born to virgin and resurrecting from the day you're listening.

2700
02:40:26,920 --> 02:40:29,799
Speaker 4: I'm asking you about logic itself, and you keep diverting

2701
02:40:29,840 --> 02:40:33,239
away from that and restating an argument based on logic.

2702
02:40:33,680 --> 02:40:35,520
I want to know in your worldview, how there's such

2703
02:40:35,600 --> 02:40:37,959
a thing as logic and how it works if you're

2704
02:40:38,040 --> 02:40:39,600
an agnostic or whatever you are.

2705
02:40:41,040 --> 02:40:43,520
Speaker 43: Yeah, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure proving what

2706
02:40:43,639 --> 02:40:46,799
the definition of logic is has anything to do with

2707
02:40:46,920 --> 02:40:49,280
the using logic to argue against Christianity.

2708
02:40:50,719 --> 02:40:51,719
Speaker 3: I'm using logic.

2709
02:40:51,760 --> 02:40:56,959
Speaker 43: I'm using logical statements that you must use those.

2710
02:40:56,799 --> 02:41:00,440
Speaker 3: Rely on logic. And how does logic work? Well?

2711
02:41:00,520 --> 02:41:03,440
Speaker 43: Logic works by using your brain, I would say.

2712
02:41:04,159 --> 02:41:08,040
Speaker 4: So again, you're restating the thing that was already disproven

2713
02:41:08,079 --> 02:41:10,559
a minute ago. Using a thing or saying that it's

2714
02:41:10,600 --> 02:41:12,799
in your brain doesn't make it justified and doesn't show

2715
02:41:12,799 --> 02:41:15,239
how it works. How is that universal? Is it just

2716
02:41:15,399 --> 02:41:15,760
your brain?

2717
02:41:15,840 --> 02:41:17,040
Speaker 3: What about my Is it in my brain too?

2718
02:41:18,239 --> 02:41:18,280
Speaker 5: No?

2719
02:41:18,440 --> 02:41:20,200
Speaker 43: But it's like it's like, how do you know anything

2720
02:41:20,319 --> 02:41:23,319
is real in the world? You use your brain, you know?

2721
02:41:23,440 --> 02:41:25,239
Speaker 4: So your answer is a two quote way to ask

2722
02:41:25,319 --> 02:41:27,120
me how I know anything is real. When I ask

2723
02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:30,280
you for an account for logic and universal categories.

2724
02:41:30,479 --> 02:41:32,079
Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that.

2725
02:41:32,559 --> 02:41:36,360
Speaker 4: Then it's how do you give an account for logic

2726
02:41:36,479 --> 02:41:39,319
and it's universal, immaterial, invariant nature.

2727
02:41:41,239 --> 02:41:41,760
Speaker 3: What does that mean?

2728
02:41:41,760 --> 02:41:43,440
Speaker 43: You're using a lot of big words, But what does

2729
02:41:43,479 --> 02:41:46,120
that mean? I'm giving you, I'm giving you how.

2730
02:41:46,200 --> 02:41:50,040
Speaker 4: These are standard, they're standard philosophical terms. You wanted to

2731
02:41:50,159 --> 02:41:53,000
use logic to argue against Christianity, and I'm saying, okay, fine,

2732
02:41:53,040 --> 02:41:55,680
maybe Christianity is false. I want you now to give

2733
02:41:55,680 --> 02:41:57,360
me an account for the thing that you're relying on

2734
02:41:57,479 --> 02:41:58,520
and using, namely.

2735
02:41:58,319 --> 02:42:04,440
Speaker 43: Logic, because the claims of the New Testament and the

2736
02:42:04,520 --> 02:42:05,959
claims of the Bible.

2737
02:42:06,200 --> 02:42:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah again, I already let's say I can see to

2738
02:42:09,959 --> 02:42:12,639
you that the Bible is false. How does that give

2739
02:42:12,680 --> 02:42:15,479
an account for the ontological status of logic?

2740
02:42:16,680 --> 02:42:16,719
Speaker 5: No?

2741
02:42:16,840 --> 02:42:19,200
Speaker 43: But but I'm but I'm I'm using logic and I'm

2742
02:42:19,239 --> 02:42:20,479
getting to my point, which.

2743
02:42:20,360 --> 02:42:23,520
Speaker 4: Is that they make which is a circle. Because I'm

2744
02:42:23,559 --> 02:42:25,959
asking you how you know logic works in the world.

2745
02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:29,200
What's your justification for logic? You're using a thing that

2746
02:42:29,319 --> 02:42:34,239
you have no justification for that was your original critique

2747
02:42:34,280 --> 02:42:36,479
of me, your original critiqus have no critique.

2748
02:42:36,639 --> 02:42:40,719
Speaker 3: You're relying on you. Yes you did. You said, we're

2749
02:42:40,760 --> 02:42:42,879
relying on a book that we can't know.

2750
02:42:43,120 --> 02:42:45,399
Speaker 43: Yeah, but that's not a mira because you didn't write it.

2751
02:42:45,840 --> 02:42:46,799
It's not a critique on you.

2752
02:42:48,040 --> 02:42:50,440
Speaker 3: It's a critique of my position. And stop playing word games.

2753
02:42:51,200 --> 02:42:54,440
I'm asking you to justify your use of logic because

2754
02:42:54,440 --> 02:42:56,559
that's what you're relying on through a few Christianity. So

2755
02:42:56,680 --> 02:42:59,600
you're in you're in a terrible position. No, not really,

2756
02:43:00,440 --> 02:43:03,440
because okay, so why should we believe logic? How is it?

2757
02:43:03,520 --> 02:43:03,799
Speaker 5: What is it?

2758
02:43:03,840 --> 02:43:04,959
Speaker 3: Where is logic?

2759
02:43:05,079 --> 02:43:06,479
Speaker 6: Is what you live every day?

2760
02:43:06,680 --> 02:43:09,680
Speaker 3: And so for instance, you don't say how that is.

2761
02:43:09,760 --> 02:43:11,920
It's just what you live, Okay, I live as a degenerate.

2762
02:43:12,040 --> 02:43:12,120
Speaker 25: Is that?

2763
02:43:12,360 --> 02:43:12,399
Speaker 3: No?

2764
02:43:12,520 --> 02:43:15,440
Speaker 43: No, No, there's there's certain there's certain laws of physics. Right,

2765
02:43:15,440 --> 02:43:17,479
for instance, there's not one person on this planet.

2766
02:43:17,479 --> 02:43:19,399
Speaker 3: So the laws of logic or the laws of physics

2767
02:43:19,680 --> 02:43:23,200
in a way, you use logic. Can you observe can

2768
02:43:23,239 --> 02:43:25,239
you can you observe a law of logic under a

2769
02:43:25,399 --> 02:43:26,680
Microsoft No?

2770
02:43:26,840 --> 02:43:29,120
Speaker 43: But you use logic in order to figure out what

2771
02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:30,159
the laws of physics are.

2772
02:43:30,440 --> 02:43:33,280
Speaker 3: You think things, doesn't tell me that it's true or

2773
02:43:33,360 --> 02:43:34,399
that it should be used.

2774
02:43:34,520 --> 02:43:36,879
Speaker 4: I gave the example earlier of a unicorn in a

2775
02:43:36,959 --> 02:43:38,680
story that doesn't tell me unicorns are true.

2776
02:43:38,799 --> 02:43:40,520
Speaker 43: No, But for instance, there's not one person on this

2777
02:43:40,600 --> 02:43:44,120
planet who can walk on uh in a pool of

2778
02:43:44,280 --> 02:43:47,159
lukewarm water. Right, But in the Bible they make the

2779
02:43:47,239 --> 02:43:50,840
claim that Jesus walked on water. So that's an extraordinary event.

2780
02:43:50,959 --> 02:43:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I already conceded. Yeah, but I concede it

2781
02:43:53,040 --> 02:43:55,239
to you. Let's say that the Bible is false. That's fine,

2782
02:43:55,520 --> 02:43:58,399
So it's all it's all made up stories. How does

2783
02:43:58,479 --> 02:44:01,680
that work for? You? Give an account for logic, the

2784
02:44:01,840 --> 02:44:04,319
very thing that you're using. I don't know that I

2785
02:44:04,440 --> 02:44:07,879
have to make that connection. Oh so you don't have

2786
02:44:08,000 --> 02:44:09,879
to give an account for the things that you rely on,

2787
02:44:10,000 --> 02:44:12,559
but I do. No, no, no, another fallacy.

2788
02:44:12,719 --> 02:44:18,760
Speaker 43: I'm not relying on anything but logic and reasoning.

2789
02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:20,399
Speaker 3: You and you don't have to give an account.

2790
02:44:20,440 --> 02:44:23,200
Speaker 6: No, no what I am, because no you're not.

2791
02:44:23,479 --> 02:44:25,239
Speaker 3: You just keep stating that it's the case and that

2792
02:44:25,319 --> 02:44:26,799
you use it. That's not giving an.

2793
02:44:26,719 --> 02:44:29,000
Speaker 43: Account for it or explaining how it is or where

2794
02:44:29,040 --> 02:44:30,840
it is or what it is yeah, but your your

2795
02:44:30,959 --> 02:44:34,959
stance is that you're you're believing every word of that

2796
02:44:35,239 --> 02:44:38,600
book as if it is you.

2797
02:44:38,680 --> 02:44:39,639
Speaker 3: Want me to accept.

2798
02:44:39,959 --> 02:44:45,440
Speaker 4: You want me to accept an immaterial, invariant, unchanging, unseeable

2799
02:44:45,719 --> 02:44:48,000
thing that you can't give an account for.

2800
02:44:48,159 --> 02:44:50,040
Speaker 3: You just say it just is. Now, I imagine if

2801
02:44:50,079 --> 02:44:52,879
I came to this debate and I said, God just is,

2802
02:44:53,520 --> 02:44:56,399
you would laugh at that. That's literally what you're doing

2803
02:44:56,520 --> 02:44:58,440
with the thing that you're using to try to argue

2804
02:44:58,479 --> 02:44:59,559
against God's existence.

2805
02:45:00,760 --> 02:45:02,760
Speaker 43: No, that's not what I'm doing, and I'm not arguing

2806
02:45:02,760 --> 02:45:03,760
against God's existence.

2807
02:45:04,639 --> 02:45:07,040
Speaker 3: It's not what you're doing. What you literally said about

2808
02:45:07,079 --> 02:45:09,200
ten times that logic is just what it is, and

2809
02:45:09,280 --> 02:45:10,920
it's what we do with our brain. It just is.

2810
02:45:11,920 --> 02:45:14,680
Speaker 43: No, I mean, my argument is that it's a book

2811
02:45:14,840 --> 02:45:17,799
full of mistakes, contradictions, it's not inerranive.

2812
02:45:18,159 --> 02:45:19,040
Speaker 3: How does that tell you?

2813
02:45:19,200 --> 02:45:19,239
Speaker 11: What?

2814
02:45:19,559 --> 02:45:21,600
Speaker 3: Can you not repeat? You don't even understand what my

2815
02:45:21,680 --> 02:45:25,040
argument is? You couldn't Could you restate my argument? You're

2816
02:45:25,040 --> 02:45:27,479
all over the place. I don't know exactly. I don't

2817
02:45:27,600 --> 02:45:29,879
know that. I'm not all over the place. I'm very

2818
02:45:29,920 --> 02:45:32,559
precise for the last twenty minutes exactly what my argument is.

2819
02:45:32,719 --> 02:45:34,319
How am I all over the place when I've asked you,

2820
02:45:34,399 --> 02:45:37,440
like twenty times to give a justification for what logic

2821
02:45:37,600 --> 02:45:38,319
is or how you use it.

2822
02:45:38,440 --> 02:45:40,959
Speaker 43: Well, you're asking me to use logic and reasoning, and

2823
02:45:41,040 --> 02:45:45,319
I'm using logical examples of why there might be a problem.

2824
02:45:45,399 --> 02:45:48,879
Speaker 3: No, I'm asking you a higher order question. I'm asking

2825
02:45:48,959 --> 02:45:51,520
you what it is? Not do you use it? What?

2826
02:45:51,879 --> 02:45:52,159
Speaker 26: Is it?

2827
02:45:52,360 --> 02:45:53,120
Speaker 5: What? What? What?

2828
02:45:53,319 --> 02:45:56,040
Speaker 43: Does what your definition of logic have anything to do

2829
02:45:56,440 --> 02:45:59,840
with what we're talking about. You're trying to confuse every

2830
02:46:00,040 --> 02:46:01,159
body in here with your.

2831
02:46:02,719 --> 02:46:05,159
Speaker 3: Laughing at you. They're laughing at you because you can't

2832
02:46:05,200 --> 02:46:07,120
give an account for the thing that you're using. No,

2833
02:46:07,280 --> 02:46:09,959
I don't think so. I don't think so. No, you're

2834
02:46:10,000 --> 02:46:12,600
not you're not actually giving I assure you. And then

2835
02:46:12,639 --> 02:46:14,440
when it goes on YouTube, everyone's gonna be laughing to it,

2836
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:16,079
So I assure you that you will be laughed at.

2837
02:46:16,719 --> 02:46:19,239
Speaker 43: No, I don't actually think that, because you haven't given

2838
02:46:19,280 --> 02:46:22,760
me one explanation for why.

2839
02:46:22,840 --> 02:46:25,440
Speaker 3: You can't even restate what? Can you restate? Can you

2840
02:46:25,520 --> 02:46:26,559
restate what my argument is?

2841
02:46:26,799 --> 02:46:30,600
Speaker 43: You can restate it. Well, you can restate it if

2842
02:46:30,639 --> 02:46:30,920
you'd like.

2843
02:46:32,799 --> 02:46:34,680
Speaker 3: I've done it about ten times, and I want to

2844
02:46:34,760 --> 02:46:36,079
see if you're able to do it.

2845
02:46:37,840 --> 02:46:40,760
Speaker 43: You're you're not giving an argument at all, all right,

2846
02:46:42,239 --> 02:46:45,239
you're not even giving an argument for what a sarge.

2847
02:46:45,959 --> 02:46:48,200
Speaker 3: I gave him multiple arguments in production.

2848
02:47:04,879 --> 02:47:21,079
Speaker 4: Stone, Stone, Stone, It's amazing, like he couldn't even grasp

2849
02:47:21,319 --> 02:47:25,959
or restate twenty times me asking him, well, what is

2850
02:47:26,040 --> 02:47:28,760
the thing that you're relying on when you call the

2851
02:47:28,840 --> 02:47:34,840
Bible illogical and Christianity irrational? I literally ask him twenty

2852
02:47:35,040 --> 02:47:36,440
I mean, all you have to do is just restate.

2853
02:47:36,520 --> 02:47:38,440
You know, you're asking me to give an account for logic.

2854
02:47:39,479 --> 02:47:42,360
It's like talking to like a five year old. They

2855
02:47:42,479 --> 02:47:43,680
just keep being totulant.

2856
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:44,440
Speaker 3: Stone.

2857
02:47:44,479 --> 02:47:49,120
Speaker 57: I'm mute, man, Hello, sir, I'm sorry, I just joined

2858
02:47:49,159 --> 02:47:52,200
your space. Can then I ask your religion?

2859
02:47:52,280 --> 02:47:54,959
Speaker 5: First? Are you Christian?

2860
02:47:59,000 --> 02:47:59,280
Speaker 9: Okay?

2861
02:47:59,399 --> 02:47:59,719
Speaker 3: Very good?

2862
02:48:00,079 --> 02:48:00,959
Speaker 6: I am a Muslim?

2863
02:48:02,159 --> 02:48:04,159
Speaker 9: Very good, very good, very good.

2864
02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:11,399
Speaker 43: I'm Muslim, oh, very good, very yes.

2865
02:48:11,760 --> 02:48:13,120
Speaker 3: So what is the debate today?

2866
02:48:14,799 --> 02:48:20,399
Speaker 4: Anything relating to Islam, Christianity, Atheism, Protestantism, you name it?

2867
02:48:22,920 --> 02:48:23,239
Speaker 9: Okay?

2868
02:48:23,479 --> 02:48:25,719
Speaker 57: So can I start?

2869
02:48:27,159 --> 02:48:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2870
02:48:28,840 --> 02:48:32,399
Speaker 57: Okay, So I personally believe the Quran is the word

2871
02:48:32,479 --> 02:48:36,040
of God, the direct words of God, because it came

2872
02:48:36,760 --> 02:48:40,840
to correct what came before to Moses and to Jesus.

2873
02:48:41,920 --> 02:48:43,079
So the current tell us.

2874
02:48:43,799 --> 02:48:48,079
Speaker 3: On why would all words be corrupted to Moses and Jesus?

2875
02:48:51,520 --> 02:48:52,479
Speaker 57: What do you mean corrupted?

2876
02:48:53,959 --> 02:48:57,959
Speaker 3: Well, you're arguing that he came to fix what was given.

2877
02:48:57,799 --> 02:49:02,520
Speaker 57: Before, right, Yes, because he claimed that people changed it

2878
02:49:02,680 --> 02:49:03,840
with their own hands.

2879
02:49:04,239 --> 02:49:04,360
Speaker 25: Uh.

2880
02:49:04,639 --> 02:49:07,360
Speaker 3: No, it says that they changed it with their it.

2881
02:49:07,600 --> 02:49:10,280
Speaker 4: It says they spoke against it with their tongues and

2882
02:49:10,399 --> 02:49:13,239
that they wrote false versions. It doesn't say that the

2883
02:49:13,399 --> 02:49:16,200
in ngeal or that the Torah was changed.

2884
02:49:18,239 --> 02:49:18,360
Speaker 5: Hm.

2885
02:49:18,799 --> 02:49:23,639
Speaker 57: It says that descriptures before was changed, and descriptures.

2886
02:49:23,040 --> 02:49:28,319
Speaker 4: Before that in chapter and five, five forty seven and on,

2887
02:49:28,559 --> 02:49:31,079
it says that you can check what is new with

2888
02:49:31,239 --> 02:49:32,040
what came before.

2889
02:49:32,120 --> 02:49:33,840
Speaker 3: How could you do that if it was changed?

2890
02:49:35,239 --> 02:49:39,680
Speaker 57: Okay, so easy, we can do it even easier. So

2891
02:49:39,799 --> 02:49:42,600
the current tells us it's the direct words of God.

2892
02:49:43,280 --> 02:49:45,920
And to know that it's the word of God, you

2893
02:49:46,040 --> 02:49:46,920
have to challenge it.

2894
02:49:47,559 --> 02:49:48,760
Speaker 3: You have to look for mistake.

2895
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:52,319
Speaker 4: And that's exactly what I'm doing. Because if if that

2896
02:49:52,399 --> 02:49:56,760
you can check it before? No, why would I with

2897
02:49:56,920 --> 02:49:57,799
something corrupted?

2898
02:49:57,959 --> 02:49:58,760
Speaker 3: How could I check it?

2899
02:49:59,760 --> 02:49:59,920
Speaker 5: Jim?

2900
02:50:00,000 --> 02:50:01,399
Speaker 57: Please let me speak one by one?

2901
02:50:01,479 --> 02:50:01,680
Speaker 9: Brother?

2902
02:50:01,959 --> 02:50:03,959
Speaker 3: How can I check it if it's corrupted.

2903
02:50:04,840 --> 02:50:06,319
Speaker 57: I'm just saying it's easy.

2904
02:50:06,399 --> 02:50:06,639
Speaker 9: Brother.

2905
02:50:07,840 --> 02:50:10,079
Speaker 57: If you find the Quran, say that. If you find

2906
02:50:10,120 --> 02:50:12,799
a single mistakes and contradiction into Quran.

2907
02:50:13,000 --> 02:50:14,520
Speaker 3: No, you don't even understand what I'm saying.

2908
02:50:15,319 --> 02:50:18,920
Speaker 57: Brother, I'm listening.

2909
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:19,840
Speaker 5: You'll just look.

2910
02:50:22,360 --> 02:50:26,200
Speaker 4: The Quran says you checked the Quran according to prior revelation.

2911
02:50:28,280 --> 02:50:30,760
You just said the prior revelation is corrupted. Why would

2912
02:50:30,760 --> 02:50:32,440
I check it against the thing that's corrupted?

2913
02:50:34,159 --> 02:50:41,920
Speaker 3: Brandon? What's up?

2914
02:50:41,959 --> 02:50:42,079
Speaker 30: Jack?

2915
02:50:42,120 --> 02:50:42,559
Speaker 5: Can you hear me?

2916
02:50:44,600 --> 02:50:44,760
Speaker 25: Man?

2917
02:50:45,520 --> 02:50:47,799
Speaker 58: First, I just want to say I am an inquirer

2918
02:50:48,239 --> 02:50:52,760
and thanks for helping me come back to the church.

2919
02:50:54,440 --> 02:50:54,600
Speaker 12: Uh.

2920
02:50:55,600 --> 02:50:58,799
Speaker 58: When you are critiquing Islam, and specifically the problem of

2921
02:50:58,879 --> 02:51:01,440
the one and the many, can you run that argument,

2922
02:51:02,959 --> 02:51:05,319
you know, the relation of a law to his essence

2923
02:51:05,799 --> 02:51:09,639
or to his attributes rather, can you help me pick

2924
02:51:09,680 --> 02:51:10,520
that argument apart?

2925
02:51:12,879 --> 02:51:16,680
Speaker 4: Well, it really depends on which akida of Islam you're

2926
02:51:16,760 --> 02:51:18,040
talking to, can you mute?

2927
02:51:20,159 --> 02:51:20,360
Speaker 30: Yeah?

2928
02:51:21,920 --> 02:51:24,000
Speaker 4: So that argument is really going to have to be

2929
02:51:24,040 --> 02:51:27,319
tweaked depending upon whether you're talking to Ashia or whether

2930
02:51:27,360 --> 02:51:31,559
you're talking to an Ashari, or whether you're talking to

2931
02:51:32,440 --> 02:51:35,000
an AUTHORI. I mean, it really just depends because they

2932
02:51:35,079 --> 02:51:38,959
have different accounts of the attributes and the relationship of

2933
02:51:39,000 --> 02:51:42,360
the attributes, the essence and the relationship of Allah to

2934
02:51:43,760 --> 02:51:47,200
the Quran, whether it's uncreated in the sense of, I

2935
02:51:47,280 --> 02:51:49,680
mean they believe in uncreated Koran, but then whether the

2936
02:51:49,799 --> 02:51:54,399
Koran is able to be translated into the various languages,

2937
02:51:54,719 --> 02:51:58,680
and whether the words of Allah themselves to Gabriel are

2938
02:51:58,719 --> 02:51:59,879
then created or uncreated.

2939
02:52:00,079 --> 02:52:02,840
Speaker 3: So they just move the problem, move the problem back

2940
02:52:02,920 --> 02:52:06,600
and stuff. So it really depends upon which school of Islam.

2941
02:52:06,399 --> 02:52:08,760
Speaker 4: You're talking about when it comes to the attributes. So

2942
02:52:08,840 --> 02:52:13,159
if you're talking to like a Daniel or Jake, who

2943
02:52:13,280 --> 02:52:20,200
are Wahabi Salafi, like, their approach is going to say that, like,

2944
02:52:20,319 --> 02:52:23,760
the attributes are really distinct from Allah and that they

2945
02:52:24,360 --> 02:52:29,159
exist in and of themselves in some kind of Well, actually,

2946
02:52:29,200 --> 02:52:33,000
when doctor Branson asked Jake this, he says, do you

2947
02:52:33,120 --> 02:52:38,760
think that the attributes are self existing? Because Jake is

2948
02:52:38,799 --> 02:52:41,319
trying to say that anything that is self existing, like

2949
02:52:42,479 --> 02:52:46,440
the father, is higher in status than the son, because

2950
02:52:46,440 --> 02:52:49,159
the son, if he requires the father for his existence,

2951
02:52:50,000 --> 02:52:53,879
does not possess the attribute of self existence. And so

2952
02:52:54,799 --> 02:52:58,840
the same argument is just applicable to the attributes, But

2953
02:52:58,959 --> 02:53:02,120
it depends upon how that Muslim is going to give

2954
02:53:02,159 --> 02:53:05,840
an account of the attributes. So, for example, against doctor Khalil,

2955
02:53:06,520 --> 02:53:08,719
you couldn't make that argument the way that you would

2956
02:53:08,760 --> 02:53:11,680
make the argument against Jake, because doctor Khalil is not

2957
02:53:11,799 --> 02:53:14,760
going to speak of the attributes as really distinct the

2958
02:53:14,840 --> 02:53:17,200
way that Jake will. And so if you ask him,

2959
02:53:17,399 --> 02:53:21,399
ask Jake like, is Allah identical to his essence, I mean,

2960
02:53:21,440 --> 02:53:22,399
to his attributes?

2961
02:53:22,520 --> 02:53:22,559
Speaker 9: No?

2962
02:53:23,280 --> 02:53:26,360
Speaker 3: Are the attributes fully Allah and fully divine? Yes?

2963
02:53:27,000 --> 02:53:29,959
Speaker 4: Then how do you not have a composite do it?

2964
02:53:31,440 --> 02:53:36,680
In regard to your argument for how heap doctor Kalil

2965
02:53:36,879 --> 02:53:44,680
make the same argument, the platonic argument, a new simplicity

2966
02:53:44,719 --> 02:53:48,000
position that he doesn't even have an account for actual differentiation,

2967
02:53:48,680 --> 02:53:51,760
the same way we'd argue against Ads, because ADS is

2968
02:53:51,840 --> 02:53:55,239
ultimately a neoplatonic position. So again, it just depends up

2969
02:53:55,239 --> 02:53:56,559
on which Muslims you're talking to.

2970
02:53:56,719 --> 02:54:00,520
Speaker 3: And how their school gives an account for or Allah

2971
02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:01,399
and his attributes.

2972
02:54:04,680 --> 02:54:04,959
Speaker 43: Got it?

2973
02:54:05,120 --> 02:54:05,600
Speaker 58: Thanks man?

2974
02:54:06,520 --> 02:54:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's not really the one in the many problem.

2975
02:54:08,799 --> 02:54:12,959
It's more like the attributes.

2976
02:54:14,399 --> 02:54:18,600
Speaker 4: In their relationship to Allah, and whether a lat really

2977
02:54:18,719 --> 02:54:22,040
is many or not? Is I mean, I guess it's

2978
02:54:22,079 --> 02:54:23,639
a kind of a one in many kind of argument,

2979
02:54:23,719 --> 02:54:27,719
but it's more so the ontological status of the attributes

2980
02:54:28,559 --> 02:54:33,520
and the majority, like the Sunnies, they believe there's an

2981
02:54:33,559 --> 02:54:36,440
uncreated Koran. You could just ask them like, okay, is

2982
02:54:36,520 --> 02:54:38,520
the uncreated Koran identical to Allah?

2983
02:54:39,520 --> 02:54:39,559
Speaker 5: No?

2984
02:54:40,200 --> 02:54:44,479
Speaker 4: Oh, okay, then there's two uncreated eternal things, and the

2985
02:54:44,559 --> 02:54:46,719
same with the attributes. Like that's a really easy way

2986
02:54:46,760 --> 02:54:47,079
to put it.

2987
02:54:48,159 --> 02:54:51,040
Speaker 3: They'll go, No, it is the speech of a lot. Okay,

2988
02:54:51,079 --> 02:54:52,399
I don't care whether you call it the speech of

2989
02:54:52,440 --> 02:54:53,360
a law. Is it eternal?

2990
02:54:53,959 --> 02:54:54,120
Speaker 32: Yes?

2991
02:54:55,120 --> 02:54:56,719
Speaker 3: Is it allah? No, it is the speech of a

2992
02:54:56,799 --> 02:55:00,799
lat Okay. How many is that allah? Speech of a law?

2993
02:55:01,239 --> 02:55:03,399
I'm counting too, how many do you count?

2994
02:55:04,239 --> 02:55:04,280
Speaker 59: No?

2995
02:55:04,440 --> 02:55:04,680
Speaker 60: It is.

2996
02:55:06,280 --> 02:55:09,040
Speaker 3: It's like they just it's like talking to five year

2997
02:55:09,040 --> 02:55:09,639
old robots.

2998
02:55:11,280 --> 02:55:20,559
Speaker 61: They Vincent, Hey, jay, uh, I don't want to disappoint.

2999
02:55:20,559 --> 02:55:22,760
My name is actually not Vincent van Gogh, and I

3000
02:55:22,840 --> 02:55:26,000
am a woman. Are you able to hear me?

3001
02:55:26,079 --> 02:55:26,319
Speaker 5: Okay?

3002
02:55:27,840 --> 02:55:28,000
Speaker 3: Yes?

3003
02:55:28,360 --> 02:55:28,639
Speaker 31: Okay?

3004
02:55:29,079 --> 02:55:31,840
Speaker 61: Uh So I'm Catholic. My friend whose orthodox got me

3005
02:55:31,920 --> 02:55:34,799
under your videos, especially when we're discussing the the occult

3006
02:55:35,000 --> 02:55:38,920
and love your roots videos, So thanks for taking allowing

3007
02:55:39,000 --> 02:55:39,559
me to speak.

3008
02:55:40,000 --> 02:55:40,280
Speaker 3: Thank you.

3009
02:55:40,639 --> 02:55:44,399
Speaker 61: I have one comment in one question, uh, and I

3010
02:55:44,440 --> 02:55:46,600
think I could throw them together. The one comment is

3011
02:55:46,879 --> 02:55:49,639
I recently saw your I don't want to call it

3012
02:55:49,799 --> 02:55:54,280
a debate, but that buffoon called misfit Patriot appeared on

3013
02:55:54,360 --> 02:56:00,319
your live feed. Yeah, and you know it was embarrassing. Honestly,

3014
02:56:00,440 --> 02:56:03,280
is a Catholic like those type of people that's not

3015
02:56:03,719 --> 02:56:05,120
the people that go to Mass every week?

3016
02:56:05,200 --> 02:56:07,600
Speaker 3: That that's not you know, I used to be a Catholic,

3017
02:56:07,600 --> 02:56:08,239
so I understand.

3018
02:56:08,559 --> 02:56:10,520
Speaker 61: Yeah, and so that's kind of like my thread, So

3019
02:56:10,680 --> 02:56:13,239
I mean, that's really it was so embarrassing. But I

3020
02:56:13,319 --> 02:56:15,879
do see a lot of that now, especially on the

3021
02:56:16,319 --> 02:56:20,399
online stuff where people I think someone mentioned I don't

3022
02:56:20,399 --> 02:56:22,239
know the two speakers ago, the guy that said he

3023
02:56:22,360 --> 02:56:25,840
was Catholic but was arguing against Christianity.

3024
02:56:26,399 --> 02:56:27,959
Speaker 4: I don't think he I don't even know if he

3025
02:56:28,079 --> 02:56:30,120
knows what he is or if he's just a grifter.

3026
02:56:30,280 --> 02:56:32,680
I mean, he went on Twitter immediately after the debate

3027
02:56:32,680 --> 02:56:34,920
and he's like, no, I'm not really Catholic, but I

3028
02:56:35,000 --> 02:56:36,159
was raised Catholic, So I don't think.

3029
02:56:36,440 --> 02:56:38,559
Speaker 61: Yeah, I think think I was just a complete moron.

3030
02:56:40,440 --> 02:56:42,399
So I would love any more insight you have on that,

3031
02:56:42,479 --> 02:56:44,799
because like I couldn't get enough of it. How what

3032
02:56:44,879 --> 02:56:47,280
a moron he was. But unfortunately it's like a stain

3033
02:56:48,920 --> 02:56:52,639
on Catholics. And I was wondering if my question is,

3034
02:56:53,520 --> 02:56:56,079
and it might be too broad of a question, but

3035
02:56:56,680 --> 02:57:01,280
is there a point you can say that really was

3036
02:57:01,280 --> 02:57:04,639
a tipping point from you go into Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

3037
02:57:05,079 --> 02:57:07,959
I mean I love learning about Orthodoxy, and I love

3038
02:57:08,000 --> 02:57:12,200
listening to your shows and your podcasts or your kid.

3039
02:57:12,479 --> 02:57:14,760
Speaker 4: Well, if you look up my old podcasts where I

3040
02:57:14,959 --> 02:57:21,239
just contrast, there's one called Vatican one refutes Catholicism, and

3041
02:57:21,360 --> 02:57:26,079
then Vatican one for his Orthodoxy, Vatican one versus Vatican two.

3042
02:57:26,479 --> 02:57:28,760
Like some of those really just lay out the things

3043
02:57:28,799 --> 02:57:31,399
that led me out of Roman Catholicism. But I mean

3044
02:57:31,559 --> 02:57:34,479
for me, that was a really long process throughout my twenties.

3045
02:57:34,559 --> 02:57:36,399
So I became Roman Catholic in twenty three when I

3046
02:57:36,479 --> 02:57:39,000
was like twenty one, two thousand and three, when I

3047
02:57:39,079 --> 02:57:42,120
was like twenty one, and then maybe maybe twenty three

3048
02:57:42,200 --> 02:57:45,200
somewhere in there, and then for most of my twenties

3049
02:57:45,280 --> 02:57:49,120
I was like, you know, hardcore Tomas Catholic tradcat going

3050
02:57:49,159 --> 02:57:54,239
to Latin Mass, and then the Vatican two issues were

3051
02:57:54,280 --> 02:57:56,040
a big thing, and then I just kept you know,

3052
02:57:56,120 --> 02:57:59,920
going deeper and deeper into reading Danzinger, reading the papal documents,

3053
02:58:00,079 --> 02:58:04,760
reading the encyclicals. And I left Rome I would say

3054
02:58:04,799 --> 02:58:09,000
about two thousand and seven or eight. I was still

3055
02:58:09,040 --> 02:58:12,920
iffy about you know, I wasn't ready to go to Orthodoxy.

3056
02:58:13,120 --> 02:58:15,600
I wasn't ready. I didn't want to go back to Protestanism.

3057
02:58:16,200 --> 02:58:17,799
So I was just kind of in a limbo state

3058
02:58:17,879 --> 02:58:21,879
for a while for a few years. But it was

3059
02:58:21,959 --> 02:58:25,360
a process of you know, reading and reading and reading

3060
02:58:25,399 --> 02:58:29,719
and also seeing Rome on the ground and you know, seeing.

3061
02:58:29,680 --> 02:58:35,600
Speaker 3: Like in person, like just constant gay priests, gay orders.

3062
02:58:35,719 --> 02:58:36,920
The Dominicans are all gay.

3063
02:58:37,239 --> 02:58:39,319
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just like when you see it on

3064
02:58:39,399 --> 02:58:41,120
the ground, it's way worse like going to you go

3065
02:58:41,239 --> 02:58:44,520
to hip hop masses, you go to like clown masses,

3066
02:58:44,760 --> 02:58:46,920
and you see it's just like you got to see

3067
02:58:46,920 --> 02:58:49,040
it on the ground. Sometimes people don't believe until they

3068
02:58:49,079 --> 02:58:52,440
go see it and then and then you know, contrast

3069
02:58:52,600 --> 02:58:54,799
just just the worship I think was a huge one too,

3070
02:58:54,920 --> 02:58:59,600
because you know, Francis has been persecuting the Latin Mass.

3071
02:59:00,479 --> 02:59:03,120
It was even under rat singer. It was so hard

3072
02:59:03,200 --> 02:59:05,200
to find Latin masses to go to, so I was

3073
02:59:05,239 --> 02:59:09,559
going to the SSPX Mass and then you go to

3074
02:59:09,959 --> 02:59:12,280
an Orthodox Church service and it's like, well, this is

3075
02:59:12,399 --> 02:59:17,440
like reveren, Why can't the Roman Calloy Church even maintain

3076
02:59:17,559 --> 02:59:19,879
their liturgy? If they're like, if this is the true church,

3077
02:59:20,360 --> 02:59:23,239
they should at least be able to maintain just the

3078
02:59:23,319 --> 02:59:24,440
basic divine liturgy.

3079
02:59:25,239 --> 02:59:25,479
Speaker 25: Yeah.

3080
02:59:25,719 --> 02:59:27,600
Speaker 61: Yeah, I go to Latin Mass on Sundays, but then

3081
02:59:27,680 --> 02:59:30,360
during the week I perish near me. It's a very

3082
02:59:30,440 --> 02:59:33,159
good parish. I somewhat insulated. I understand what you're saying

3083
02:59:33,159 --> 02:59:35,120
about getting on the ground and like the gay priests,

3084
02:59:35,879 --> 02:59:37,440
and I guess like when I get online, I see

3085
02:59:37,479 --> 02:59:38,440
some of that stuff and it just.

3086
02:59:40,399 --> 02:59:41,399
Speaker 47: Makes my stomach turn.

3087
02:59:41,520 --> 02:59:42,840
Speaker 61: So I really appreciate you.

3088
02:59:43,079 --> 02:59:45,959
Speaker 4: Well, I don't mean to say that like the decision

3089
02:59:46,159 --> 02:59:48,719
was based on like who has more gay priests, because

3090
02:59:48,760 --> 02:59:52,120
there's corrupt, evil priests and bishops and the Orthodox Church too.

3091
02:59:53,159 --> 02:59:55,760
Now for me, the decision was literally all based on

3092
02:59:55,879 --> 02:59:59,079
the theology and the argumentation. I'm just saying that when

3093
02:59:59,159 --> 03:00:01,280
I was roaming cats, like, I really was, you know,

3094
03:00:01,440 --> 03:00:05,559
committed to it. But the on the ground world of

3095
03:00:05,639 --> 03:00:08,920
Roman Catholicism really eventually beats you down and you get

3096
03:00:08,959 --> 03:00:12,760
really dejected about it, and that was part of what

3097
03:00:13,040 --> 03:00:17,120
got me looking into other options. But I'm not saying that,

3098
03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:20,000
oh I converted because there's gaybris No, that's not my argument.

3099
03:00:20,040 --> 03:00:21,799
Speaker 61: Yeah, no, that's interesting. I mean I'm committed.

3100
03:00:21,840 --> 03:00:22,040
Speaker 5: I'm not.

3101
03:00:22,159 --> 03:00:24,479
Speaker 61: I don't have plans to good Orthodoxy, though it seems

3102
03:00:24,559 --> 03:00:31,319
that very cool right now, but I just like learning about,

3103
03:00:31,719 --> 03:00:34,920
you know, Orthodoxy, all religions.

3104
03:00:35,000 --> 03:00:39,280
Speaker 4: But uh, well, look, I would say here's three easy contradictions.

3105
03:00:39,319 --> 03:00:41,799
And I mean Roman Catholicism is premise that on the

3106
03:00:42,079 --> 03:00:45,399
idea that dogma can't contradict. And I can give you

3107
03:00:45,559 --> 03:00:51,239
three explicit dogmatic contradictions. Number one, unam Sanctum teaches that

3108
03:00:52,079 --> 03:00:55,440
you have to submit to and believe in the temporal

3109
03:00:55,520 --> 03:00:58,600
supremacy of the Roman bishops, which means that he is

3110
03:00:58,680 --> 03:01:02,840
also a world rule and can call standing armies.

3111
03:01:02,559 --> 03:01:03,120
Speaker 3: Et cetera.

3112
03:01:03,760 --> 03:01:08,399
Speaker 4: That belief was necessary up until Vatican two, and it's

3113
03:01:08,479 --> 03:01:10,760
no longer a necessary, but that to me is a

3114
03:01:10,840 --> 03:01:16,399
dogmatic contradiction. Number two, Francis has changed the Roman Cathoity

3115
03:01:16,479 --> 03:01:19,639
churches teaching on the death penalty, not just to get

3116
03:01:19,680 --> 03:01:21,280
away with it, but he actually says that it is

3117
03:01:21,479 --> 03:01:24,799
contrary to the Gospel. Yeah, the Roman catholt Church saw

3118
03:01:24,920 --> 03:01:29,959
the death penalty for you know, countless from the beginning

3119
03:01:30,159 --> 03:01:30,680
pretty much.

3120
03:01:31,399 --> 03:01:34,600
Speaker 3: So those are contradictions. I would also argue that.

3121
03:01:37,639 --> 03:01:41,040
Speaker 4: Even within Catholicism, like the giving of a blessing to

3122
03:01:43,079 --> 03:01:46,360
gay couples, and I know that it's not gay marriage,

3123
03:01:46,879 --> 03:01:50,559
but the blessing of a gay couple is the opposite

3124
03:01:50,719 --> 03:01:54,680
directive that the Holy Office gave in two thousand and

3125
03:01:54,799 --> 03:01:55,799
three under rat Singer.

3126
03:01:55,959 --> 03:01:57,360
Speaker 3: So those are direct contradictions.

3127
03:01:58,239 --> 03:02:00,280
Speaker 56: Yeah, I do get that.

3128
03:02:00,440 --> 03:02:03,879
Speaker 61: And I have some friends who are actually way more

3129
03:02:03,920 --> 03:02:06,280
traditional than I am, and they basically just say, like, look,

3130
03:02:06,719 --> 03:02:11,079
Vatican two is invalid, and also Francis is the anti pope,

3131
03:02:11,120 --> 03:02:12,760
so we're just gonna wait it out, like we are

3132
03:02:12,799 --> 03:02:13,959
the ones your church.

3133
03:02:14,719 --> 03:02:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have a talk on that. It's called a

3134
03:02:17,479 --> 03:02:19,360
set of a contism for his orthodoxy.

3135
03:02:19,520 --> 03:02:21,879
Speaker 3: So I look it up. I would say, watch watch

3136
03:02:21,959 --> 03:02:23,799
that talk because I deal with that whole.

3137
03:02:24,120 --> 03:02:24,479
Speaker 44: Look it up.

3138
03:02:24,479 --> 03:02:25,360
Speaker 61: Thank you so much for your time.

3139
03:02:31,600 --> 03:02:44,879
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. Great questions, Doctor Thomas Raspberry Gotta I'm mute.

3140
03:02:48,840 --> 03:02:53,319
Speaker 62: You had a quick question in regards to the previous

3141
03:02:53,440 --> 03:02:59,399
caller and trying to figure out what the temporal nature

3142
03:02:59,440 --> 03:03:02,479
of the paper is. He so claimed was at the

3143
03:03:02,520 --> 03:03:05,799
beginning of the first near the beginning of the first millennia,

3144
03:03:06,639 --> 03:03:10,440
I know that the papal states were a thing, and

3145
03:03:10,559 --> 03:03:14,840
I was wondering maybe if that statement from that particular

3146
03:03:14,920 --> 03:03:19,000
pope was in regards to his control over the papal

3147
03:03:19,079 --> 03:03:23,760
states and his getting the Holy Roman Emperor in line.

3148
03:03:23,799 --> 03:03:25,879
Speaker 10: And you know how he says, as the.

3149
03:03:26,559 --> 03:03:28,760
Speaker 62: Moon reflects the light of the sun, so too, there's

3150
03:03:28,799 --> 03:03:36,719
a Holy Roman Emperor reflect you know, the divine light, Yeah,

3151
03:03:39,040 --> 03:03:41,719
shown on the pope or something like that. I don't

3152
03:03:41,760 --> 03:03:45,120
know exactly what the words are, but it's something similar

3153
03:03:45,200 --> 03:03:48,200
to that. So is that particular to the time when

3154
03:03:48,440 --> 03:03:49,719
the papal states existed?

3155
03:03:52,680 --> 03:03:55,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the papal states that have an existence

3156
03:03:55,319 --> 03:03:58,600
prior to when I'm signed them. But the issue is

3157
03:03:58,680 --> 03:04:03,079
not you know, and the Church, you know, have large

3158
03:04:03,159 --> 03:04:05,680
elements of property in this kind of stuff. If you

3159
03:04:05,719 --> 03:04:08,200
look at the Canons of Chalcidon, it's forbidden in the

3160
03:04:08,239 --> 03:04:13,360
canons for a cleric to have a civil role, and

3161
03:04:13,520 --> 03:04:19,319
so this is a fissure of a separation between Church

3162
03:04:19,360 --> 03:04:22,319
and state, even in the situation of Symphonia. And the

3163
03:04:22,440 --> 03:04:25,760
problem is that if you read the Papadocus Mayandorf book

3164
03:04:26,159 --> 03:04:28,760
on the rise of the papacy from one thousand to

3165
03:04:28,879 --> 03:04:32,159
fourteen hundred in the West, they argue that there's a

3166
03:04:32,159 --> 03:04:34,360
whole bunch of things that pop off in under the

3167
03:04:34,399 --> 03:04:37,639
Gregorian reforms that are distinct even beyond.

3168
03:04:37,479 --> 03:04:38,600
Speaker 3: The notion of a papal state.

3169
03:04:38,639 --> 03:04:42,559
Speaker 4: It's one of those, for example, is the military monastic

3170
03:04:42,760 --> 03:04:44,040
orders that fight for the pope.

3171
03:04:44,559 --> 03:04:45,879
Speaker 3: That's something that's completely new.

3172
03:04:45,959 --> 03:04:51,479
Speaker 4: It never existed, and they rightly point out that clearly

3173
03:04:51,680 --> 03:04:54,559
there was a geopolitical motivation for the papacy to do

3174
03:04:54,639 --> 03:04:57,360
this under the Gregoing reforms and to approve those orders. Now,

3175
03:04:57,600 --> 03:04:59,559
I understand that there they would argue, well, this is

3176
03:04:59,600 --> 03:05:01,200
part of the to Holy Land and all that.

3177
03:05:01,879 --> 03:05:02,079
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3178
03:05:02,319 --> 03:05:04,440
Speaker 4: But the problem is that even if there might have

3179
03:05:04,520 --> 03:05:08,840
been extenuating circumstances, it goes against canon law in terms

3180
03:05:08,879 --> 03:05:12,120
of what monastics are allowed to do. Monastics do not

3181
03:05:12,319 --> 03:05:17,000
engage in fighting in battle. And then beyond that, the

3182
03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:22,159
Dictatus pope document is the first explicit extreme statement about

3183
03:05:22,239 --> 03:05:25,000
the pope being a world ruler. No, this is not

3184
03:05:25,319 --> 03:05:28,639
just large scale property or even defense of his property.

3185
03:05:28,799 --> 03:05:33,639
This is the papacy being able to call standing armies,

3186
03:05:34,440 --> 03:05:39,040
go to war and excommunicate princes that don't fight in

3187
03:05:39,120 --> 03:05:43,079
his defense. That's all totally foreign to the first millennium.

3188
03:05:43,719 --> 03:05:45,680
And it was also backed up, by the way, with

3189
03:05:45,840 --> 03:05:47,680
some of the forgeries, so you had the usage of

3190
03:05:47,719 --> 03:05:49,639
the donation of Constantine to back up some of this.

3191
03:05:50,200 --> 03:05:53,200
And if you read when I'm Sanctum, the argumentation is, actually,

3192
03:05:53,639 --> 03:05:56,000
it's not even so much about like warfare and battles.

3193
03:05:56,000 --> 03:05:57,040
Speaker 3: It's really absurd.

3194
03:05:57,120 --> 03:06:00,600
Speaker 4: It's like it just cites Jeremiah about I have set

3195
03:06:00,680 --> 03:06:04,600
you above all kingdoms to read out and to destroy,

3196
03:06:05,360 --> 03:06:08,440
and the papacy says, that's about us, because we're the

3197
03:06:08,559 --> 03:06:10,479
head of the world, and if we're the head of

3198
03:06:10,520 --> 03:06:12,879
the church, and if the church is superior to the rulers,

3199
03:06:13,200 --> 03:06:15,520
then we're the head of all rulers, right, So it's

3200
03:06:15,600 --> 03:06:20,559
just preposterous, you know, logic there. And the argument is

3201
03:06:20,600 --> 03:06:23,600
that even if you could justify that like historically, and

3202
03:06:23,719 --> 03:06:25,840
even if we gave the papacy an excuse for all that,

3203
03:06:26,719 --> 03:06:29,440
Vatican too has like discarded that. So that means there's

3204
03:06:29,479 --> 03:06:31,559
a change in dogma. If you read it when I'm sunktum.

3205
03:06:32,239 --> 03:06:35,440
It's not just saying no salvationals the church. It's saying

3206
03:06:35,600 --> 03:06:37,239
you must also believe.

3207
03:06:36,920 --> 03:06:39,360
Speaker 3: In the temporal supremacy of the Roman Bishop to be saved.

3208
03:06:41,079 --> 03:06:42,559
Speaker 62: Right, all right, thanks so much.

3209
03:06:42,559 --> 03:06:48,239
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Thank you, doctor Thomas. Appreciate your your

3210
03:06:48,520 --> 03:06:49,959
presence and your good question.

3211
03:06:51,479 --> 03:08:13,920
Speaker 4: Emmanuel, Adrian Emanual whoever can connect, I guess nobody can connect. Balance.

3212
03:08:13,959 --> 03:08:15,479
We've already done your questions. Is not trying to be

3213
03:08:15,559 --> 03:08:16,719
rude to you, but we want to move on to

3214
03:08:16,799 --> 03:08:17,440
some other people.

3215
03:08:20,479 --> 03:08:25,479
Speaker 3: We've got a long drive, so I mean, do a

3216
03:08:25,520 --> 03:08:27,200
little bit more. We've been going for a good while.

3217
03:08:28,200 --> 03:08:34,719
Speaker 4: Any questions, challenges, discussions regarding Calvinism, processes with Catholicism, Islam, atheism.

3218
03:08:35,479 --> 03:08:37,280
I mean, if you're a Muslim coming up, know that

3219
03:08:37,680 --> 03:08:41,479
we already kind of are aware of the arguments, so

3220
03:08:41,559 --> 03:08:43,760
you don't have to walk us through saying we know

3221
03:08:43,920 --> 03:08:45,879
that you think the Koran is the word of all lot.

3222
03:08:45,920 --> 03:08:48,079
Speaker 3: We know all that. And I'm going to ask you

3223
03:08:48,159 --> 03:08:51,000
about the Islamic dilemma, so know that ahead of time.

3224
03:08:51,440 --> 03:08:54,000
And if you can't restate what the Islamic dilemma is

3225
03:08:55,680 --> 03:08:56,600
just don't even come up.

3226
03:08:56,600 --> 03:08:58,239
Speaker 4: It's not worth anybody's time because we don't want to

3227
03:08:58,239 --> 03:09:01,319
go through this whole process of like explaining it to

3228
03:09:01,440 --> 03:09:03,079
you and then you don't know what it is, and

3229
03:09:03,159 --> 03:09:05,440
then you just keep repeating what the Koran.

3230
03:09:05,200 --> 03:09:10,239
Speaker 3: Says, which is not a debate. If you can restate

3231
03:09:10,760 --> 03:09:13,479
the Islamic dilemma, even if you disagree with it, if

3232
03:09:13,559 --> 03:09:17,520
you have the capabilities to restate it, I will welcome you.

3233
03:09:17,639 --> 03:09:21,600
Speaker 4: Up to the microphone. You can come and be first.

3234
03:09:23,639 --> 03:09:26,479
We still got what well, we got more people than earlier.

3235
03:09:26,520 --> 03:09:28,639
We got over three hundred, three hundred and thirteen people.

3236
03:09:30,719 --> 03:09:34,120
And that atheist guy was something else. And it's always

3237
03:09:34,200 --> 03:09:37,200
like the thing that it's annoying too when people won't

3238
03:09:37,239 --> 03:09:38,680
debate their actual position.

3239
03:09:39,079 --> 03:09:41,520
Speaker 3: That's annoying when they're like, oh, well, I'm not going

3240
03:09:41,600 --> 03:09:44,040
to say what my position is, but I'm going to

3241
03:09:44,120 --> 03:09:46,239
argue in bad faith from all these other positions.

3242
03:09:46,719 --> 03:09:50,600
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it is a debate room, but kind

3243
03:09:50,639 --> 03:09:52,360
of the assumption here is that you're going to debate

3244
03:09:52,399 --> 03:09:55,360
the actual position you have, not pretending to have a

3245
03:09:55,399 --> 03:09:58,680
bunch of positions. And atheists love to do that too,

3246
03:09:58,719 --> 03:10:01,799
because they can like jump between positions. When they get refuted,

3247
03:10:01,840 --> 03:10:03,879
they can just switch to another position that they don't

3248
03:10:03,879 --> 03:10:04,239
actually have.

3249
03:10:05,120 --> 03:10:07,479
Speaker 3: So it's a kind of a classic bad faith tactic.

3250
03:10:07,840 --> 03:10:09,200
By the way, Muslims are doing this too.

3251
03:10:09,280 --> 03:10:12,399
Speaker 4: When we were on the God Logic extreme debating, all

3252
03:10:12,399 --> 03:10:15,159
the Muslims, a bunch of them were doing this too,

3253
03:10:15,200 --> 03:10:18,520
where they act like they're Orthodoxic inquirers or they're interested

3254
03:10:18,559 --> 03:10:20,879
in some position, or they'll say they're atheists, and then

3255
03:10:20,920 --> 03:10:23,639
they start arguing Islam just to get in there to

3256
03:10:23,760 --> 03:10:26,760
argue their stupid positions. It's like, it's just a weird

3257
03:10:26,959 --> 03:10:30,319
thing to want to bad faith argue a position that

3258
03:10:30,399 --> 03:10:34,319
you don't have. But it's actually a tactic because it's

3259
03:10:34,360 --> 03:10:38,000
a way to just change your position mid debate. Well,

3260
03:10:38,040 --> 03:10:40,079
I don't know actually believe that. And that's exactly what

3261
03:10:40,200 --> 03:10:42,319
that guy did. You notice how snaky that was, right?

3262
03:10:42,399 --> 03:10:45,639
He was like he was all cordial and it's like, oh, well,

3263
03:10:45,680 --> 03:10:50,799
I'm a Christian, but is the Son of God really

3264
03:10:50,920 --> 03:10:53,040
essential to Christianity. It's like, well, wait a minute, I

3265
03:10:53,079 --> 03:10:54,840
thought you were a Christian, so you were an atheist

3266
03:10:54,959 --> 03:10:58,440
like ten minutes ago. Well, I am a Christian, but

3267
03:10:58,799 --> 03:11:01,680
I'm not going to argue much field, Well you sound

3268
03:11:01,719 --> 03:11:04,920
like an atheist, so like what so see, this is

3269
03:11:04,959 --> 03:11:07,319
a this is a thing where we were kind of

3270
03:11:07,319 --> 03:11:10,159
ahead of the game when you know, people were saying

3271
03:11:10,159 --> 03:11:12,639
we were being quote mean and really heavy handed on

3272
03:11:12,760 --> 03:11:13,200
this stuff.

3273
03:11:14,200 --> 03:11:17,159
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't take long to figure out when people

3274
03:11:17,159 --> 03:11:20,559
are not really being a good faith debater and to

3275
03:11:20,719 --> 03:11:23,319
god logics credit Like he spotted that Muslim dude within

3276
03:11:23,440 --> 03:11:26,040
like ten seconds, He's like, no, he's not.

3277
03:11:27,040 --> 03:11:32,000
Speaker 4: He's not really atheists. He's a Muslim. So this kind

3278
03:11:32,000 --> 03:11:33,360
of stuff doesn't really work.

3279
03:11:36,079 --> 03:11:37,000
Speaker 3: At least not with us.

3280
03:11:37,079 --> 03:11:39,079
Speaker 4: I think we can like sniff this stuff out within

3281
03:11:39,319 --> 03:11:42,639
no time. But if you have an actual position that

3282
03:11:42,680 --> 03:11:45,200
you'd like to discuss or defend, you're.

3283
03:11:45,079 --> 03:11:48,440
Speaker 3: Welcome to come up. I will bring you up. We've

3284
03:11:48,479 --> 03:11:50,440
got over three hundred people in here, and that's great.

3285
03:11:50,920 --> 03:11:52,799
These spaces used to get a hundred. Now they get

3286
03:11:53,600 --> 03:11:55,319
sometimes four hundred, five hundred.

3287
03:11:55,399 --> 03:11:59,159
Speaker 4: So anybody want to discuss Calvin hasn't protestism with alicism,

3288
03:11:59,280 --> 03:12:00,239
Islam atheist them.

3289
03:12:01,520 --> 03:12:03,959
Speaker 3: We have a shout out to Father Degan and Ias.

3290
03:12:04,520 --> 03:12:08,760
Speaker 4: We have a beautiful Tristanna, our favorite trans individual on

3291
03:12:08,840 --> 03:12:13,079
the chat. Some people think that she's the Antichrist. I

3292
03:12:13,159 --> 03:12:17,200
think that's a little overboard. A lot of vegans are beginning.

3293
03:12:16,879 --> 03:12:17,239
Speaker 3: To think this.

3294
03:12:18,399 --> 03:12:20,799
Speaker 4: Uh, there's not really hard evidence for this, but I

3295
03:12:20,879 --> 03:12:24,120
support her. Even if she is the Antichrist, she would

3296
03:12:24,120 --> 03:12:28,399
be the first female trans antichrist. Trans transit transity christ

3297
03:12:29,120 --> 03:12:32,239
and Shout out to Rachel's in the chat. Shout out

3298
03:12:32,280 --> 03:12:36,959
to slowboly white Board. Shout out to Jubb, Shout out

3299
03:12:37,040 --> 03:12:42,959
to Melkite, Shout out to not Chase Haggard, who I'm

3300
03:12:43,000 --> 03:12:46,440
sure is all is literally not Chase Haggard. Shout out

3301
03:12:46,440 --> 03:12:49,959
to Vaklav, Shout out to ac. We've got a bunch

3302
03:12:50,000 --> 03:12:52,719
of our friends in the chat. What's up, Father Degan,

3303
03:12:52,719 --> 03:12:53,680
and I as what's on your mind?

3304
03:13:04,799 --> 03:13:15,319
Speaker 3: You got to unmute. I'm mute, dude, FDA, you gotta

3305
03:13:15,360 --> 03:13:16,159
ut if you want to talk.

3306
03:13:16,360 --> 03:13:19,239
Speaker 8: Oh, I didn't really want to talk, but just your

3307
03:13:19,680 --> 03:13:21,200
ummute dude, I'm unmuted.

3308
03:13:21,479 --> 03:13:23,319
Speaker 3: Oh, I thought you wanted to You requested to speak,

3309
03:13:23,360 --> 03:13:26,399
You requested to speak to not speak? Yeah, that you

3310
03:13:26,520 --> 03:13:26,840
got me.

3311
03:13:29,280 --> 03:13:34,079
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm just waiting for some good questions and debates.

3312
03:13:34,319 --> 03:13:36,799
And uh, I'm sorry I missed the atheist guy.

3313
03:13:36,840 --> 03:13:40,760
Speaker 63: I don't know what his argument was, well, uh, it's

3314
03:13:40,799 --> 03:13:43,840
actually something you pointed out before, where you know a

3315
03:13:43,920 --> 03:13:47,200
lot of atheists will kind of like not say their

3316
03:13:47,239 --> 03:13:49,760
position so that they can hop into a bunch of

3317
03:13:49,799 --> 03:13:50,600
different positions.

3318
03:13:51,399 --> 03:13:53,680
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, have you noticed that?

3319
03:13:57,239 --> 03:13:59,600
Speaker 8: Well don't they actually even say to you, I don't

3320
03:13:59,639 --> 03:14:05,399
have a position? Atheism is not a position? Yeah, pretty

3321
03:14:05,479 --> 03:14:07,959
much the onus is on you. Remember that was even

3322
03:14:10,120 --> 03:14:14,079
uh Stein tried that move on Bonnson in the famous debate.

3323
03:14:16,360 --> 03:14:17,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he did.

3324
03:14:17,159 --> 03:14:19,840
Speaker 8: You're right, Yeah, which is fine.

3325
03:14:20,000 --> 03:14:20,479
Speaker 25: I mean.

3326
03:14:22,520 --> 03:14:24,920
Speaker 8: That you could say atheism itself is not position, but

3327
03:14:25,120 --> 03:14:28,760
it entails positions. So let's look at those, like, you're

3328
03:14:29,719 --> 03:14:34,200
not positionless, So what's what's your position?

3329
03:14:35,639 --> 03:14:37,959
Speaker 4: Do you think that goes along with assumed neutrality like

3330
03:14:38,040 --> 03:14:40,000
they actually think, no, I'm just actually super neutral.

3331
03:14:40,040 --> 03:14:40,959
Speaker 3: I have no position, no.

3332
03:14:41,000 --> 03:14:43,680
Speaker 8: Com Yeah, well I think Stein pointed that out too,

3333
03:14:44,319 --> 03:14:48,040
because he made a bunch of positions about what qualifies

3334
03:14:48,079 --> 03:14:51,959
as evidence and proof and stuff like that, and uh.

3335
03:14:53,600 --> 03:14:53,639
Speaker 3: That.

3336
03:14:55,200 --> 03:15:00,159
Speaker 8: Boson's response was, yeah, well it depends the way that

3337
03:15:00,239 --> 03:15:04,639
you verify history versus you know, that was the crackers

3338
03:15:04,680 --> 03:15:07,280
in the pantry fallacy. But you obviously do have pre

3339
03:15:07,440 --> 03:15:15,360
commitments and certainly your atheist worldview will inform that. I mean,

3340
03:15:15,399 --> 03:15:19,479
that's crazy to Actually it's it's not crazy, it's disingenuous.

3341
03:15:19,520 --> 03:15:22,680
Speaker 6: Actually, well the.

3342
03:15:22,680 --> 03:15:26,079
Speaker 3: Guy, that guy was pretty pretty honest about being disingenuous. Yeah,

3343
03:15:26,120 --> 03:15:27,600
I'm not going to debate my position. I'm going to

3344
03:15:27,639 --> 03:15:30,079
debate a bunch of other posiness. No, we don't really

3345
03:15:30,120 --> 03:15:30,319
do that.

3346
03:15:32,680 --> 03:15:37,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean if you take debate class, you know

3347
03:15:37,520 --> 03:15:40,639
they'll make you, as part of your course, argue the

3348
03:15:40,719 --> 03:15:43,000
positions that you don't hold and so that you learned

3349
03:15:43,000 --> 03:15:45,600
to Steelman. Well, that's not really what we're doing here.

3350
03:15:51,440 --> 03:15:53,120
Do you ever do you ever do that with students

3351
03:15:53,159 --> 03:15:56,200
where you tell them like, Okay, you're gonna argue for

3352
03:15:56,239 --> 03:15:58,440
the sake of argument a position that you don't hold,

3353
03:15:59,239 --> 03:16:01,399
so that you learn you know their position and how

3354
03:16:01,440 --> 03:16:02,079
to steal man.

3355
03:16:02,040 --> 03:16:04,600
Speaker 3: It sort of.

3356
03:16:04,760 --> 03:16:09,600
Speaker 8: I mean, we don't really have that much time in

3357
03:16:09,959 --> 03:16:13,600
the semester to actually do like debates itself. But what

3358
03:16:13,760 --> 03:16:16,520
I what I do try to do when we steal

3359
03:16:16,639 --> 03:16:21,159
man an argument, we're just going over a queus and

3360
03:16:21,239 --> 03:16:24,120
it's harder for the first year like freshmen, they're just

3361
03:16:24,559 --> 03:16:27,959
they're just blank stares, like they don't know how I

3362
03:16:28,040 --> 03:16:30,879
think a lot of it's they're insecure, they're afraid to

3363
03:16:30,920 --> 03:16:32,680
say something. But what I try to get them do

3364
03:16:32,920 --> 03:16:36,120
is like, well, what would you say, Like, let's what

3365
03:16:36,159 --> 03:16:41,840
would a counter argument be to this? And how would

3366
03:16:41,879 --> 03:16:43,840
you respond to I try to give them to do that.

3367
03:16:44,559 --> 03:16:46,680
It's like you don't actually have to believe that, but

3368
03:16:46,879 --> 03:16:50,319
you should be thinking like, well, if I was the opponent,

3369
03:16:50,520 --> 03:16:51,200
I would say this.

3370
03:16:51,600 --> 03:16:52,959
Speaker 3: And occasionally.

3371
03:16:53,920 --> 03:16:57,959
Speaker 8: Students like freshmens will get you know, upperclassmen get that

3372
03:16:58,360 --> 03:17:01,399
real well, they've taken philosophy classes and stuff, and so

3373
03:17:01,600 --> 03:17:05,079
they'll try to formulate counterposition and then a response to

3374
03:17:05,200 --> 03:17:07,840
that and stuff like that. But I mean, that's philosophy.

3375
03:17:07,840 --> 03:17:11,719
Even when you're writing papers, right, you try to think like, okay,

3376
03:17:11,760 --> 03:17:14,360
we would be the best objection to this, and how

3377
03:17:14,399 --> 03:17:18,479
would I formulate that? Yeah, it's just dialectics.

3378
03:17:22,440 --> 03:17:25,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a but it's a really difficult skill

3379
03:17:26,000 --> 03:17:30,159
or thing for a lot of people. A lot of people,

3380
03:17:30,959 --> 03:17:33,040
I guess just maybe out of laziness, like they don't

3381
03:17:33,040 --> 03:17:35,920
want to actually deal with the other positions best argument.

3382
03:17:36,000 --> 03:17:39,239
It's just a lot easier to straw man it or

3383
03:17:39,319 --> 03:17:41,000
you know, make it sound like it's something that is

3384
03:17:41,079 --> 03:17:44,479
not to knock down, you know, a fake thing, farm boy?

3385
03:17:44,559 --> 03:17:50,159
Speaker 3: What's that meant? I'm you.

3386
03:17:54,639 --> 03:18:01,239
Speaker 56: About the word theosis and where that word from, as

3387
03:18:01,319 --> 03:18:04,879
in the etymology, how did the Greek and Eastern Church

3388
03:18:05,719 --> 03:18:10,200
arrive at that word versus our English word sanctification. Curious

3389
03:18:10,840 --> 03:18:14,920
about that, particularly if that word's in the Greek New

3390
03:18:15,000 --> 03:18:17,600
Testament and where it ultimately comes from.

3391
03:18:17,799 --> 03:18:18,040
Speaker 5: Thank you.

3392
03:18:20,799 --> 03:18:22,159
Speaker 3: It's a good question. Off the top of my head.

3393
03:18:22,159 --> 03:18:24,840
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if the New Testament ever uses the

3394
03:18:24,920 --> 03:18:27,719
word theosis. It does talk about us partaking of the

3395
03:18:27,760 --> 03:18:31,239
divine nature. It talks about us being like God. We

3396
03:18:31,319 --> 03:18:34,399
will be transformed into His into the likeness of his

3397
03:18:34,559 --> 03:18:35,479
glorious body.

3398
03:18:36,920 --> 03:18:40,959
Speaker 3: You know, we will partake of his glory. Paul talks about.

3399
03:18:40,760 --> 03:18:44,079
Speaker 4: Dunamus and inner gaya, But I don't know if Tom

3400
03:18:44,120 --> 03:18:46,040
had a p if the I mean, you can just look.

3401
03:18:46,360 --> 03:18:47,840
You could google it really quick and see if the

3402
03:18:47,920 --> 03:18:49,600
New Testament ever uses the word.

3403
03:18:49,639 --> 03:18:51,799
Speaker 3: I don't think it does. Says that it does not, Yeah,

3404
03:18:52,239 --> 03:18:52,719
just checked it.

3405
03:18:53,959 --> 03:18:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not sure which Greek father would have been

3406
03:18:59,079 --> 03:19:02,840
the first to use it, maybe Theophilis or Athanacious something

3407
03:19:02,920 --> 03:19:06,200
like that. But it just became a term that sort

3408
03:19:06,239 --> 03:19:11,680
of encapsulates the participation in divine life that we undergo.

3409
03:19:13,600 --> 03:19:19,040
And I mean that, you know, you'll find the terminology

3410
03:19:19,079 --> 03:19:22,559
of sanctification use sanctified, made holy set apart.

3411
03:19:23,920 --> 03:19:28,639
Speaker 3: In the patriistic writings. But I think probably by the

3412
03:19:30,479 --> 03:19:30,799
by the.

3413
03:19:33,719 --> 03:19:38,760
Speaker 4: Controversies relating to first Ephesis and the nature of Christ

3414
03:19:38,840 --> 03:19:43,280
at Ephesus and the Eucharist, because Cyril uses the Euchrist.

3415
03:19:42,959 --> 03:19:45,879
Speaker 3: As an argument against Nestorians, and then.

3416
03:19:45,879 --> 03:19:48,959
Speaker 4: By the time of the Sixth Council, when Maximus is

3417
03:19:49,040 --> 03:19:53,120
debating about the deification of christ human body, the Sixth

3418
03:19:53,200 --> 03:19:56,959
Council uses that terminology where they say that in the incarnation,

3419
03:19:57,440 --> 03:20:00,079
the human nature of Christ is fully deified. That in

3420
03:20:00,200 --> 03:20:03,440
the six Council, so it becomes kind of concilier dogma

3421
03:20:05,200 --> 03:20:09,920
by that time, although it's pretty pretty normal even prior

3422
03:20:10,000 --> 03:20:10,559
to that time.

3423
03:20:10,840 --> 03:20:13,319
Speaker 3: So, but I don't know the I'm not a you know,

3424
03:20:13,319 --> 03:20:14,520
a linguist, so I'm not sure.

3425
03:20:14,639 --> 03:20:18,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, apotheosis was used, and

3426
03:20:18,920 --> 03:20:25,879
obviously we distinguish theosis from that. But in Greek antiquity,

3427
03:20:26,319 --> 03:20:32,639
obviously they had a concept becoming divine. It just was

3428
03:20:32,719 --> 03:20:41,040
heretical because they didn't have the energies doctrine, so obviously

3429
03:20:43,239 --> 03:20:48,000
I'm imagining the use of it derives, you know, from

3430
03:20:48,079 --> 03:20:50,840
antiquity and the concept from apathiosis.

3431
03:20:55,760 --> 03:21:00,399
Speaker 56: Okay, thank you, And you said apathiosis that word is

3432
03:21:00,680 --> 03:21:02,280
in the Greek New Testament.

3433
03:21:02,799 --> 03:21:03,479
Speaker 3: No it's not.

3434
03:21:04,360 --> 03:21:05,719
Speaker 56: Okay, I'm misunderstand you.

3435
03:21:05,840 --> 03:21:11,280
Speaker 8: Sorry, it's in antiquity. I'm trying to remember how far back,

3436
03:21:12,799 --> 03:21:16,000
if maybe even in Homer.

3437
03:21:16,639 --> 03:21:17,399
Speaker 5: I'll have to look.

3438
03:21:19,000 --> 03:21:21,479
Speaker 8: But it's not a foreign concept, is what I'm saying.

3439
03:21:21,559 --> 03:21:21,840
Speaker 44: And so.

3440
03:21:23,319 --> 03:21:27,360
Speaker 8: Just like when Saint Paul on the arapegis speaking to

3441
03:21:27,399 --> 03:21:31,399
the philosophers, uses their language and says, well, you know,

3442
03:21:32,479 --> 03:21:35,479
this is whom your poets even speak of, and whom

3443
03:21:35,520 --> 03:21:38,680
we live and have our being, I imagine the fathers

3444
03:21:39,000 --> 03:21:43,200
use those kinds of concepts, like say Gregory theologian says,

3445
03:21:43,280 --> 03:21:47,200
when speaking to philosophers, speak philosophy, they may win the

3446
03:21:47,239 --> 03:21:50,559
philosopher over. So they probably what I'm saying is the

3447
03:21:50,639 --> 03:21:54,559
concept obviously existed back then, and so they pulled from

3448
03:21:54,639 --> 03:22:01,959
that and showed the Christian version. But like Jay said,

3449
03:22:02,000 --> 03:22:06,520
this is probably not fully articulat until you get kind

3450
03:22:06,559 --> 03:22:08,959
of more of these controversies. When you get to the

3451
03:22:09,440 --> 03:22:14,280
power might sends, and you might have it in Saint Basil.

3452
03:22:14,600 --> 03:22:16,520
I'm gonna have to look, like Jay said, I don't

3453
03:22:16,559 --> 03:22:17,399
know off the top of my head.

3454
03:22:18,840 --> 03:22:24,840
Speaker 3: I got you could I ask a follow up question, Yeah, sure,

3455
03:22:24,879 --> 03:22:25,200
what's up?

3456
03:22:27,440 --> 03:22:27,719
Speaker 46: Do you.

3457
03:22:29,639 --> 03:22:33,639
Speaker 56: Do you feel like the English word sanctification misses some

3458
03:22:34,719 --> 03:22:38,760
meaning or doctrine understanding or anything like that when dealing

3459
03:22:38,840 --> 03:22:41,399
with the Orthodox.

3460
03:22:43,959 --> 03:22:46,719
Speaker 3: Well, the problem really is just that it's kind of

3461
03:22:46,719 --> 03:22:49,159
like the word transferstantiation. When we were discussing that in

3462
03:22:49,280 --> 03:22:51,680
it earlier. You might not have heard that. But it's

3463
03:22:51,719 --> 03:22:53,760
not a problem with the word itself. It's just that,

3464
03:22:54,280 --> 03:22:54,840
like if the.

3465
03:22:56,319 --> 03:22:59,280
Speaker 4: Translation of John Demouscus that we use from the Catholics

3466
03:22:59,600 --> 03:23:02,639
uses the word transubstantiation, it's not a problem. It just

3467
03:23:02,719 --> 03:23:08,760
doesn't require us to bring along all the metaphysical baggage

3468
03:23:08,840 --> 03:23:12,479
of the Scholastics and exoperate operato and all that other stuff,

3469
03:23:13,079 --> 03:23:15,079
because the word just means a change of substance, which

3470
03:23:15,159 --> 03:23:19,399
is fine in the same way like sanctification usually has

3471
03:23:19,440 --> 03:23:23,639
this Protestant connotation where Protestants when they hear that word

3472
03:23:24,639 --> 03:23:27,760
just like penal or just like substitution, like they import

3473
03:23:27,879 --> 03:23:30,040
all this theological baggage to it. That they have and

3474
03:23:30,079 --> 03:23:35,079
they hear sanctification, they think, oh, that's the distinguished from

3475
03:23:35,399 --> 03:23:39,079
glorification and distinguished from justification. These are the three stages

3476
03:23:39,120 --> 03:23:41,959
that are clearly distinguished in scripture. When they're not right,

3477
03:23:42,040 --> 03:23:46,840
so Protestants will read into that the Protestant doctrine of sanctification,

3478
03:23:47,040 --> 03:23:51,200
which is strictly distinct from justification and glorification, and that

3479
03:23:51,280 --> 03:23:57,479
would immediately be in contradiction to like Orthodox ideas because Paul,

3480
03:23:57,559 --> 03:24:00,719
for example, says the glorification is something that we can

3481
03:24:00,799 --> 03:24:03,239
have even in this life. When he talks about Second

3482
03:24:03,239 --> 03:24:06,000
Prithian's three that we see Christ face to face now

3483
03:24:06,680 --> 03:24:09,079
and we see that saying glory and we pass from

3484
03:24:09,120 --> 03:24:12,360
glory to glory. Well, I'm sorry, that means that we

3485
03:24:12,479 --> 03:24:16,280
have glorification now and that violates the uh, you know,

3486
03:24:16,600 --> 03:24:21,079
ordo salutis of the Reformation tradition. So the problem is

3487
03:24:21,159 --> 03:24:24,440
not the words. It's just sometimes people bring a lot

3488
03:24:24,520 --> 03:24:27,440
of baggage, and I mean it's kind of inescapable. I

3489
03:24:27,520 --> 03:24:30,479
think everybody kind of brings an interpretation to the text.

3490
03:24:31,079 --> 03:24:34,680
It's inescapable. But it's more so a question of you know,

3491
03:24:34,840 --> 03:24:36,879
to put it in the words of Jordan Peterson. Depends

3492
03:24:36,920 --> 03:24:40,239
on much to me, Right, it's not the word transpnentiation

3493
03:24:40,440 --> 03:24:42,840
or the word sanctification, the word justification.

3494
03:24:43,840 --> 03:24:45,079
Speaker 3: It depends on what you mean.

3495
03:24:45,239 --> 03:24:49,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that there's probably some rhetorical wisdom when

3496
03:24:49,719 --> 03:24:52,799
to use it, because, like you said, a lot of

3497
03:24:52,840 --> 03:24:56,840
these words they're contaminated from other heresies and stuff like that.

3498
03:24:57,399 --> 03:25:02,399
So your audience may think that you're meaning something different

3499
03:25:03,360 --> 03:25:05,719
when you use the word or oh, they're like us,

3500
03:25:05,959 --> 03:25:08,959
they believe Mormons are famous.

3501
03:25:08,719 --> 03:25:09,159
Speaker 5: For doing this.

3502
03:25:10,719 --> 03:25:13,360
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, well we believe the same thing.

3503
03:25:13,520 --> 03:25:18,479
I mean, they they know you don't mean the same thing,

3504
03:25:18,559 --> 03:25:20,559
and you know that they don't. And so you're playing

3505
03:25:20,600 --> 03:25:25,840
this stupid game for an hour, like and so sometimes

3506
03:25:25,920 --> 03:25:29,440
you just got to choose, like, Okay, depending on my audience,

3507
03:25:29,520 --> 03:25:31,840
what sort of words would I use? But yeah, the

3508
03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:33,440
word itself is not problematic.

3509
03:25:35,120 --> 03:25:36,040
Speaker 56: Okay, thank you guys.

3510
03:25:39,959 --> 03:25:43,280
Speaker 64: Hey, Jay, I just wanted to piggyback off of something

3511
03:25:43,319 --> 03:25:45,079
that you said earlier. I'm Orthodox now, but I grew

3512
03:25:45,159 --> 03:25:48,680
up Protestant. And it's interesting when you talked about earlier

3513
03:25:49,040 --> 03:25:52,760
about steelmanning somebody's position, I was immediately reminded of not

3514
03:25:52,879 --> 03:25:55,239
too long ago when all those performed Protestants were coming

3515
03:25:55,280 --> 03:25:58,079
out and they were so adamant that Orthodoxy was wrong.

3516
03:25:58,200 --> 03:26:00,600
But when you saw what they thought, we believe they

3517
03:26:00,600 --> 03:26:04,719
didn't even know the basics of Orthodox theology. And that's

3518
03:26:04,719 --> 03:26:07,319
what I was reminded of today when James White was

3519
03:26:08,159 --> 03:26:10,520
sending his tweets saying that he didn't want to debate

3520
03:26:10,559 --> 03:26:13,000
you r whatever. In some guy in his comments was like, oh,

3521
03:26:13,079 --> 03:26:16,079
Jay didn't show the fruit to the spirit, And I'm like, okay, anyway,

3522
03:26:16,120 --> 03:26:17,959
that I just thought it was really funny, just how

3523
03:26:18,559 --> 03:26:19,239
the irony in that.

3524
03:26:19,399 --> 03:26:22,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, they'll they'll debate all day about tone policing, they'll

3525
03:26:22,200 --> 03:26:25,079
debate about debating and not actually debate the topics. It's

3526
03:26:25,120 --> 03:26:28,959
really it's kind of just it's like a passive, aggressive, weird, effeminent.

3527
03:26:28,559 --> 03:26:32,680
Speaker 64: Thing, right anyway, thanks for bringing me up, Yeah.

3528
03:26:32,600 --> 03:26:36,920
Speaker 3: Thank you. I agree. I mean it's weird too because

3529
03:26:37,000 --> 03:26:42,239
back in the day, like in the two thousands, like

3530
03:26:42,399 --> 03:26:47,319
Calvinists and Catholics were way more like intellectual about the debates.

3531
03:26:48,200 --> 03:26:50,280
Speaker 4: And this is something because I remember, like I was

3532
03:26:50,440 --> 03:26:52,840
in Messing that you know, from two thousand and one

3533
03:26:53,120 --> 03:26:57,319
two three, I was all about internet. Catholic Protestant debates, right,

3534
03:26:57,360 --> 03:26:59,079
because I was Calvinists and I was arguing with the

3535
03:26:59,120 --> 03:26:59,920
Catholics all the time.

3536
03:27:00,079 --> 03:27:00,600
Speaker 3: On the internet.

3537
03:27:01,879 --> 03:27:04,440
Speaker 4: There wasn't really an Orthodox presence much on the Internet

3538
03:27:04,639 --> 03:27:07,159
in terms of apologetics or websites, so it's kind of

3539
03:27:07,280 --> 03:27:11,920
like just default Protestant versus Catholic. And one thing that's

3540
03:27:11,959 --> 03:27:14,239
interesting is like back when it was the blog wars

3541
03:27:15,120 --> 03:27:20,399
of those two thousands era, you know, exchanges and even Facebook, like,

3542
03:27:20,520 --> 03:27:22,399
it was a lot more you know, because you have

3543
03:27:22,520 --> 03:27:24,520
to write out stuff, So those are a lot more

3544
03:27:24,559 --> 03:27:27,719
I think thought that went into it. And now that

3545
03:27:27,799 --> 03:27:36,639
everything is audio, video and speech oriented, it's less intellectual

3546
03:27:36,719 --> 03:27:41,000
and it's a lot more. I mean, it's not that

3547
03:27:41,280 --> 03:27:45,760
oral debate is inherently deficient or anti intellectual. It's just

3548
03:27:45,879 --> 03:27:49,639
that the loss of the tendency to debate in a

3549
03:27:49,760 --> 03:27:53,600
written form has allowed a lot more goobers and goofballs

3550
03:27:53,680 --> 03:27:58,920
to just you know, whine and fuss and act like idiots.

3551
03:27:59,799 --> 03:28:02,159
And people don't even know how to have like a

3552
03:28:02,280 --> 03:28:06,200
formal debate, so people bitch about me like being quote mean, well,

3553
03:28:06,399 --> 03:28:09,680
if I'm interrupting people on an informal, open debate space,

3554
03:28:09,799 --> 03:28:13,040
that's not a formal debate. If I'm doing a formal debate,

3555
03:28:13,879 --> 03:28:16,040
most of the time, I'm pretty reserved. There's been a

3556
03:28:16,120 --> 03:28:19,639
couple of times, yes, where I will interrupt. I interrupted

3557
03:28:19,719 --> 03:28:22,200
the Muslim Lantern debate because he was being dishonest and

3558
03:28:22,360 --> 03:28:24,879
not representing what I said. He was misp I think,

3559
03:28:24,959 --> 03:28:28,000
intentionally misrepresenting what I said. But I mean, in most

3560
03:28:28,040 --> 03:28:31,399
of the formal debates, I'm pretty much abide by the rules.

3561
03:28:32,200 --> 03:28:34,760
And even if you don't quote abide by the rules, like,

3562
03:28:34,920 --> 03:28:36,360
that's the job of the moderator to.

3563
03:28:36,399 --> 03:28:36,920
Speaker 3: Call you out.

3564
03:28:38,079 --> 03:28:39,799
Speaker 4: Most people don't know how to moderate a debate, so

3565
03:28:39,879 --> 03:28:42,680
they suck at moderating debates and they don't ever call anybody.

3566
03:28:42,399 --> 03:28:45,159
Speaker 3: Out when they violate the rules.

3567
03:28:45,760 --> 03:28:47,520
Speaker 4: But even if you violate the rules a little bit

3568
03:28:47,600 --> 03:28:49,360
and interrupt, I mean, it's not the end of the world.

3569
03:28:49,440 --> 03:28:52,040
It's just the moderator calls you out, and you know,

3570
03:28:52,120 --> 03:28:54,840
like muti or whatever. That's the way it ought to operate.

3571
03:28:55,319 --> 03:28:57,639
But on these open spaces here like this, like when

3572
03:28:57,680 --> 03:28:59,639
we had you guys heard the atheist guy in here

3573
03:28:59,760 --> 03:29:06,200
right totally arguing it in bad faith being a sophist, Like, no,

3574
03:29:06,360 --> 03:29:08,360
I'm going to interrupt that person this is not a

3575
03:29:08,440 --> 03:29:09,040
formal debate.

3576
03:29:09,120 --> 03:29:11,520
Speaker 3: I don't owe anyone a formal debate. I don't owe

3577
03:29:12,079 --> 03:29:13,879
some rando dude a formal debate.

3578
03:29:14,399 --> 03:29:17,639
Speaker 4: And again, in the case of James White, I tried

3579
03:29:17,680 --> 03:29:20,680
to debate him for years, and I offered to debate

3580
03:29:20,760 --> 03:29:24,000
him on the trinity and that he had a faulty

3581
03:29:24,079 --> 03:29:28,799
concept of trinity as any indistinction, and he for years said,

3582
03:29:30,600 --> 03:29:33,479
you know, no, I don't have time to learn Orthodoxy.

3583
03:29:33,479 --> 03:29:34,719
Speaker 3: I'm not interested in any of that.

3584
03:29:35,600 --> 03:29:38,079
Speaker 4: And then here we are, like six years later, and he,

3585
03:29:39,840 --> 03:29:42,680
you know, tweets about how he doesn't understand my profile,

3586
03:29:42,719 --> 03:29:45,639
which is super boomer, which is funny, and then he says,

3587
03:29:46,600 --> 03:29:51,120
I want a debate when I drive my RV in

3588
03:29:51,239 --> 03:29:56,799
a year. I mean, to me, it just sous like

3589
03:29:56,879 --> 03:29:58,000
It's like, I'm kind.

3590
03:29:57,840 --> 03:30:01,479
Speaker 3: Of surprised that he sounds like a comedian.

3591
03:30:01,559 --> 03:30:03,799
Speaker 4: And he was saying, I'm I'm a comedian, but he

3592
03:30:03,840 --> 03:30:07,680
doesn't think I'm a comedian, but he's actually an unintentional

3593
03:30:07,760 --> 03:30:10,799
comedian because it just sounds like this just sounds like

3594
03:30:10,840 --> 03:30:11,319
a bunch.

3595
03:30:11,159 --> 03:30:13,399
Speaker 3: Of like made up clown stuff. It's just weird.

3596
03:30:14,360 --> 03:30:14,479
Speaker 17: Uh.

3597
03:30:14,799 --> 03:30:16,840
Speaker 4: And then he said, why would I debate a person

3598
03:30:16,879 --> 03:30:19,559
who has a green picture on their profile of themselves?

3599
03:30:20,280 --> 03:30:23,280
Speaker 3: Is he a green person? That was his retort.

3600
03:30:23,440 --> 03:30:29,360
Speaker 8: Like, what, by the way, I just following up you

3601
03:30:29,520 --> 03:30:35,200
said back in the day, like you said, debating online

3602
03:30:35,600 --> 03:30:38,600
wasn't really a big thing. There weren't that many people

3603
03:30:39,520 --> 03:30:40,920
there went a bunch of goobers.

3604
03:30:41,280 --> 03:30:41,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3605
03:30:41,559 --> 03:30:47,799
Speaker 8: Right, This is probably prior to even like Facebook. You

3606
03:30:47,840 --> 03:30:51,440
didn't have Twitter acts and all this stuff, and so

3607
03:30:52,440 --> 03:30:54,159
you could kind of people knew what they were doing.

3608
03:30:54,239 --> 03:30:55,799
For the most part, you can kind of get it,

3609
03:30:55,840 --> 03:31:00,360
and there was kind of reputation within those circles. Now

3610
03:31:00,520 --> 03:31:06,360
everybody and their moms online can just challenge you, know you,

3611
03:31:06,639 --> 03:31:10,600
and so it's a matter of like wasting time, Like

3612
03:31:11,000 --> 03:31:14,120
sure the person might be right, but there's a million

3613
03:31:14,239 --> 03:31:19,280
people all challenge you. There's no way that you're going

3614
03:31:19,360 --> 03:31:24,200
to waste your time writing out a formal debate and

3615
03:31:24,280 --> 03:31:28,360
written format for every single person who's challenging you. So

3616
03:31:28,479 --> 03:31:32,799
the best thing is to it's a different Yeah, the

3617
03:31:32,920 --> 03:31:36,719
best thing is just to open up a space where

3618
03:31:36,719 --> 03:31:39,559
there's a dedicated time. And I think that's even better

3619
03:31:39,600 --> 03:31:44,479
if people got you know, get upset when they get

3620
03:31:44,520 --> 03:31:49,040
the block on X. But the fact of The matter is,

3621
03:31:49,200 --> 03:31:52,319
if you don't block people, these stupid arguments will go

3622
03:31:52,479 --> 03:31:55,280
on forever endeavor you can't get on with your life.

3623
03:31:55,319 --> 03:31:58,520
So isn't it better just to say whatever your criticism is,

3624
03:31:58,600 --> 03:32:01,639
whatever your argument, Well, here's a space dedicated you can

3625
03:32:01,719 --> 03:32:04,959
come on and make your argument, but you're not owed anything.

3626
03:32:05,040 --> 03:32:08,159
You're not owed and on not to be blocked and

3627
03:32:08,280 --> 03:32:12,120
an endless back and forth of stupid tweets.

3628
03:32:17,600 --> 03:32:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the positives of debate are oral.

3629
03:32:21,280 --> 03:32:24,840
Speaker 4: Debate is that people don't get the trick of relying

3630
03:32:24,959 --> 03:32:28,360
on AI, which is what a lot of them want

3631
03:32:28,399 --> 03:32:31,200
to do when they say I only do written debates, Well,

3632
03:32:31,319 --> 03:32:33,239
you didn't have AI back in two thousand and five

3633
03:32:33,280 --> 03:32:36,799
when you were doing written blog debates and now you do.

3634
03:32:37,479 --> 03:32:40,680
So No, it's not going to work to let you

3635
03:32:40,920 --> 03:32:43,760
just like sit there and type out and who has

3636
03:32:43,799 --> 03:32:44,520
the time to do this.

3637
03:32:46,120 --> 03:32:46,520
Speaker 3: Anyway.

3638
03:32:46,600 --> 03:32:50,239
Speaker 4: I'm not going to type out twenty pages argument with

3639
03:32:50,360 --> 03:32:53,200
some random dude. That's what was going on today. There

3640
03:32:53,239 --> 03:32:55,360
was a Calvinist guy saying I will only debate you

3641
03:32:55,440 --> 03:32:57,520
in a written blog format. I'm like, dude, it's not

3642
03:32:57,600 --> 03:32:59,319
two thousand and three, man, what are you talking about.

3643
03:33:00,680 --> 03:33:02,680
Speaker 8: The other thing you figured out there was another group

3644
03:33:02,719 --> 03:33:05,559
of people that were challenging tag the kind of the

3645
03:33:05,639 --> 03:33:11,760
pseudo intellectuals. Most of them would never come into a

3646
03:33:12,760 --> 03:33:17,040
voice chat debate, and what we figured out is basically

3647
03:33:17,120 --> 03:33:19,159
what they were doing is they were taking these into

3648
03:33:19,239 --> 03:33:21,360
other servers and working them out and taking them to

3649
03:33:21,399 --> 03:33:22,440
philosophy professors.

3650
03:33:22,799 --> 03:33:28,799
Speaker 3: Yea like Appy and Right, So you're not actually debating

3651
03:33:28,840 --> 03:33:32,200
that guy. You're debating like a buddy, You're a debating.

3652
03:33:33,600 --> 03:33:39,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, grad students And two of the best atheist philosophers

3653
03:33:39,319 --> 03:33:42,239
are Appy and what's the other guy with my blanking on.

3654
03:33:44,200 --> 03:33:45,360
Speaker 3: Oz and Ozzy.

3655
03:33:48,239 --> 03:33:51,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's the guy that coaches Della Hunty when Della

3656
03:33:51,559 --> 03:33:52,520
Hunty gets scared.

3657
03:33:53,399 --> 03:33:56,159
Speaker 8: Yeah, So they just take it and they work these things.

3658
03:33:56,239 --> 03:33:58,879
So it's like, well, just no, I'm not going to

3659
03:33:58,920 --> 03:34:01,760
waste my time going back and forth and text with

3660
03:34:02,280 --> 03:34:03,280
a whole crew of.

3661
03:34:05,840 --> 03:34:08,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're supposed to debate like, uh, you know, a

3662
03:34:08,840 --> 03:34:10,760
discord of fifty atheists.

3663
03:34:10,319 --> 03:34:14,799
Speaker 3: Or you're scared? Right, ultravol kool Aid?

3664
03:34:14,840 --> 03:34:19,200
Speaker 41: What's up, hey, Jerry Camyred.

3665
03:34:19,559 --> 03:34:24,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm actually local in Phoenix and I used

3666
03:34:24,680 --> 03:34:30,120
to go to Apologia Studios and I've studied under James

3667
03:34:30,159 --> 03:34:33,280
White for a while before I started learning about Orthodoxy,

3668
03:34:33,840 --> 03:34:37,360
and I just wanted to say that when he promised it, saying.

3669
03:34:37,200 --> 03:34:38,280
Speaker 38: Like, oh is this him?

3670
03:34:38,479 --> 03:34:39,000
Speaker 30: I don't know.

3671
03:34:39,440 --> 03:34:42,879
Speaker 2: He knows full well who you are. He made responses,

3672
03:34:43,000 --> 03:34:45,239
he's talked about it. Yeah, he's talked about you, So

3673
03:34:45,280 --> 03:34:47,040
I don't know how he was trying to start that with.

3674
03:34:47,200 --> 03:34:48,520
Speaker 8: Like, Oh, who's this guy.

3675
03:34:49,040 --> 03:34:52,440
Speaker 2: He's made claims about you before and he knows farewell

3676
03:34:52,479 --> 03:34:54,399
who you were, so like, I think it was just

3677
03:34:54,479 --> 03:34:57,280
dishonest how he started the interaction trying to claim like, oh,

3678
03:34:57,440 --> 03:34:59,239
is this the guy people who have been talking about.

3679
03:35:00,959 --> 03:35:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was being silly, so I agree. But yeah, again,

3680
03:35:08,840 --> 03:35:09,239
let's like.

3681
03:35:11,840 --> 03:35:13,920
Speaker 4: It's the same kind of thing that William Aulbrick would do,

3682
03:35:13,959 --> 03:35:15,559
where it'd be like you'd be trying to set up

3683
03:35:15,559 --> 03:35:18,319
a debate for years and he would say, Okay, in

3684
03:35:18,440 --> 03:35:21,719
six months it'll be live. And then it's like he's

3685
03:35:21,799 --> 03:35:24,959
expecting you to set up a live venue and you're like, well, now,

3686
03:35:25,040 --> 03:35:26,200
let's just do it on the internet.

3687
03:35:26,319 --> 03:35:29,319
Speaker 3: I don't do that. I do it live. Do it

3688
03:35:29,479 --> 03:35:31,319
live right, like O'Reilly or something.

3689
03:35:31,399 --> 03:35:36,000
Speaker 4: It's like everybody in the world nowadays does internet debates.

3690
03:35:36,479 --> 03:35:38,760
What do you mean setting it up in person in

3691
03:35:38,879 --> 03:35:42,680
six months and then six months goes by and it's like, oh, yeah,

3692
03:35:43,920 --> 03:35:46,840
a lot going on, let's do it live in another

3693
03:35:46,959 --> 03:35:50,440
six months. It's just so stupid. It's like you could

3694
03:35:50,520 --> 03:35:53,079
literally hop on this stream. And by the way, haven't

3695
03:35:53,079 --> 03:35:55,440
you been told defending Calvinism for thirty years? Why do

3696
03:35:55,479 --> 03:35:58,600
you need a year of preparation to debate and defend

3697
03:35:58,680 --> 03:36:01,520
your Calvinist stuff. You've been debating for like thirty your

3698
03:36:01,559 --> 03:36:02,079
whole life.

3699
03:36:02,959 --> 03:36:15,239
Speaker 3: It's just it's just stupid. Eli, I went's up by

3700
03:36:15,319 --> 03:36:15,600
the way.

3701
03:36:15,840 --> 03:36:19,600
Speaker 4: By the way, I don't know if maybe Wes Wes

3702
03:36:19,719 --> 03:36:22,200
Hoff might be more popular than James White now right.

3703
03:36:22,360 --> 03:36:24,760
So it's like we're already trying to set up a

3704
03:36:24,799 --> 03:36:28,520
debate on tim cast with me versus I don't I

3705
03:36:28,559 --> 03:36:30,920
don't know if I'll have a companion or not, but

3706
03:36:31,079 --> 03:36:35,120
me versus. It was supposed to be Michael Knowles originally

3707
03:36:35,200 --> 03:36:39,360
and Tim Poole, and then I don't think Michael Knowles

3708
03:36:39,360 --> 03:36:40,479
will do it, so I was like, well, you better

3709
03:36:40,479 --> 03:36:43,760
get Tim Gordon because Michael Knowles will rely on Tim Gordon.

3710
03:36:44,600 --> 03:36:46,639
Speaker 3: And then they were like, oh, we need Protestants too,

3711
03:36:46,799 --> 03:36:49,200
and so I can't stand.

3712
03:36:49,440 --> 03:36:51,879
Speaker 4: I don't know who's I guess James White's worse than

3713
03:36:51,959 --> 03:36:56,040
Doug Wilson. So I have less distaste for Doug Wilson

3714
03:36:56,079 --> 03:36:59,959
than James White. But I mean, isn't Wes Huff kind

3715
03:36:59,959 --> 03:37:03,000
of the hot topic right now? So what did he

3716
03:37:03,079 --> 03:37:06,840
be better than all these boom Boomer gen z old

3717
03:37:06,920 --> 03:37:08,600
fogies that nobody really cares about.

3718
03:37:08,959 --> 03:37:10,479
Speaker 3: So I'd prefer it be like west Off.

3719
03:37:10,559 --> 03:37:11,079
Speaker 6: But I don't know.

3720
03:37:14,639 --> 03:37:14,680
Speaker 5: You.

3721
03:37:16,479 --> 03:37:19,719
Speaker 65: Oh hey, Jay, I had a quick question on the

3722
03:37:19,799 --> 03:37:23,120
topic of confession. I don't know if you don't want

3723
03:37:23,120 --> 03:37:24,559
to answer that or well.

3724
03:37:24,520 --> 03:37:26,520
Speaker 3: Father Diacon probably be able to better answer that than me.

3725
03:37:27,399 --> 03:37:28,440
Speaker 9: Okay, perfect, perfect.

3726
03:37:29,159 --> 03:37:31,559
Speaker 65: Uh So the reason why I'm asking is because I

3727
03:37:31,760 --> 03:37:35,280
was talking to a Protestant family member of mine and

3728
03:37:35,520 --> 03:37:39,680
we were talking about confession, and she was saying, why

3729
03:37:39,799 --> 03:37:44,239
would why would she go confess to a priest when

3730
03:37:44,399 --> 03:37:47,440
she can just guess confess it between her and God?

3731
03:37:47,600 --> 03:37:51,959
Because if the idea and I'm not fully well versed

3732
03:37:52,000 --> 03:37:56,680
on confession yet, but basically saying, wouldn't you be constricting

3733
03:37:56,760 --> 03:37:58,920
God's power of forgiveness if you have to go to

3734
03:37:59,040 --> 03:38:02,600
a priest? Chester forgiveness for even like the smallest things,

3735
03:38:03,239 --> 03:38:05,120
or like what would be considered a small sin.

3736
03:38:05,399 --> 03:38:11,159
Speaker 6: I guess in her words, well, I think that in.

3737
03:38:11,200 --> 03:38:13,520
Speaker 4: The Old Testament it was already kind of an element

3738
03:38:13,600 --> 03:38:17,000
of this, because you brought your sacrifice to the temple

3739
03:38:17,200 --> 03:38:21,200
based on in many cases the type of sin that

3740
03:38:21,280 --> 03:38:22,000
you had committed.

3741
03:38:22,559 --> 03:38:24,920
Speaker 3: So that was kind of an implicit confession. And then

3742
03:38:25,000 --> 03:38:26,440
sometimes we see this.

3743
03:38:26,760 --> 03:38:28,760
Speaker 4: We even see the tradition with John the Baptists, where

3744
03:38:28,799 --> 03:38:31,479
it says that they came to him repenting and confessing

3745
03:38:31,520 --> 03:38:33,639
their sins and being baptized.

3746
03:38:34,479 --> 03:38:36,280
Speaker 3: So even with John the Baptist, that occurs.

3747
03:38:36,399 --> 03:38:39,159
Speaker 4: Jesus says in the Gospel John that he breathes on

3748
03:38:39,239 --> 03:38:41,920
the disciples, and he says, whoever sins you, they're remitted.

3749
03:38:41,959 --> 03:38:44,680
Whoever sins you retained, they're retained. And so we think

3750
03:38:44,799 --> 03:38:48,000
that there really is this principle of the notion of

3751
03:38:48,040 --> 03:38:50,639
the Body of Christ having the ability through the ministers

3752
03:38:50,719 --> 03:38:53,600
to actually remit and retain sins. So there's a real

3753
03:38:53,719 --> 03:38:57,799
power that's there that you know, is not in the

3754
03:38:57,879 --> 03:38:58,719
Protestant world.

3755
03:38:58,920 --> 03:39:01,120
Speaker 3: But it's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing.

3756
03:39:01,719 --> 03:39:05,360
Speaker 4: And because we're bodily creatures who are not just you know,

3757
03:39:05,600 --> 03:39:09,600
minds floating around or ghosts floating around. We have a body,

3758
03:39:09,799 --> 03:39:13,159
and our body then interacts with another body, which here's

3759
03:39:13,239 --> 03:39:16,719
our confession, and which then pronounces, you know, absolution. So

3760
03:39:17,399 --> 03:39:20,879
that bodily aspect to absolution I think is a mercy

3761
03:39:21,000 --> 03:39:25,520
from God that allows us to actually feel and sense

3762
03:39:25,760 --> 03:39:28,920
that we have been forgiven, beyond just praying to God,

3763
03:39:29,000 --> 03:39:32,040
which of course you can do, but I think it's

3764
03:39:32,079 --> 03:39:35,440
a lot it's better if we understand and see oral

3765
03:39:35,479 --> 03:39:38,120
confession as a gift rather than some sort of punishment.

3766
03:39:38,239 --> 03:39:42,440
Speaker 3: It's it's better understood in my view. Oh okay, that

3767
03:39:42,520 --> 03:39:43,319
makes sense.

3768
03:39:43,399 --> 03:39:47,520
Speaker 65: So I guess from what I understand is while technically

3769
03:39:47,600 --> 03:39:49,959
you could still be forgiven of your sense if you

3770
03:39:50,040 --> 03:39:53,360
were to confess it to God, it would be best

3771
03:39:53,760 --> 03:39:54,840
to document.

3772
03:39:54,520 --> 03:39:58,520
Speaker 3: Of confession helps us have an assurance of forgiveness, and

3773
03:39:58,799 --> 03:40:02,479
that's the positive part of it. So that's a good

3774
03:40:02,520 --> 03:40:04,959
thing in my view, I mean especially.

3775
03:40:04,760 --> 03:40:11,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, so Christ establishes the way to confess, the way

3776
03:40:11,600 --> 03:40:16,440
to pray, a lot of these different things, and you

3777
03:40:16,520 --> 03:40:20,280
can always say, like, well, couldn't we do it? Apart

3778
03:40:20,360 --> 03:40:26,360
from that, Yeah, but he didn't prescribe. He didn't prescribe that. Now,

3779
03:40:26,440 --> 03:40:29,600
of course we do in our prayers we confess to God.

3780
03:40:31,079 --> 03:40:35,799
But we're told it's a both and that. But you

3781
03:40:35,959 --> 03:40:39,360
need to to pray this way, you need to confess

3782
03:40:39,440 --> 03:40:43,319
this way. You need to do these things. And like

3783
03:40:43,520 --> 03:40:50,680
Jay said, it has both spiritual and practical benefits. As

3784
03:40:50,719 --> 03:40:55,239
a Protestant, when I confessed just to God, I didn't

3785
03:40:55,280 --> 03:40:59,079
get better. I still did the same sense.

3786
03:41:01,120 --> 03:41:01,840
Speaker 3: Because I wasn't.

3787
03:41:01,719 --> 03:41:05,280
Speaker 8: Accountable to anybody. And so we learn accountability to God.

3788
03:41:05,959 --> 03:41:06,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, a good point.

3789
03:41:07,280 --> 03:41:10,559
Speaker 8: By making ourselves accountable to other people. The way that

3790
03:41:10,639 --> 03:41:17,079
we practice obedience to God is obedience to our hierarchs

3791
03:41:17,200 --> 03:41:19,799
and our elders and stuff like that. In this case,

3792
03:41:19,920 --> 03:41:20,479
the priests.

3793
03:41:21,120 --> 03:41:22,000
Speaker 3: The way that we.

3794
03:41:25,319 --> 03:41:29,799
Speaker 8: Practice all these things is here and now, so God

3795
03:41:29,959 --> 03:41:32,840
knows that this works. And the other way if it

3796
03:41:32,959 --> 03:41:35,920
was just well, I can just go straight to God.

3797
03:41:38,600 --> 03:41:43,879
It doesn't do anything practically and psychologically, one typically continues

3798
03:41:44,280 --> 03:41:48,239
in their sin. But and also to have like a

3799
03:41:48,360 --> 03:41:54,799
real relationship with a priest who's counseling you, well, why

3800
03:41:54,799 --> 03:41:58,159
do you think that you did this? Let's talk about

3801
03:41:58,200 --> 03:42:02,280
this and let's go forward on how to make you better.

3802
03:42:03,319 --> 03:42:04,600
You don't get that in Protestantism.

3803
03:42:05,520 --> 03:42:05,920
Speaker 43: Mm hmm.

3804
03:42:06,959 --> 03:42:12,159
Speaker 8: And also it follows on the scriptural thing having a witness,

3805
03:42:13,559 --> 03:42:16,600
like you're required to have a witness in these things

3806
03:42:16,680 --> 03:42:19,559
like where's your witness? And oh, I confess to God?

3807
03:42:21,760 --> 03:42:25,479
So the priest acts as a witness. You're confessing to

3808
03:42:25,559 --> 03:42:28,479
God in the confession, and the priest is the witness

3809
03:42:28,600 --> 03:42:31,799
to that and has given the power to then as

3810
03:42:31,879 --> 03:42:38,479
being the witness also to announce the absolution or retaining

3811
03:42:38,799 --> 03:42:39,239
the sins.

3812
03:42:43,120 --> 03:43:01,000
Speaker 3: What's up? Are you there? We can't hear you, dude,

3813
03:43:01,159 --> 03:43:08,200
Are you there? I don't know. Your microphone doesn't work.

3814
03:43:08,239 --> 03:43:13,959
Then sounds like static, So it's open for him. We're

3815
03:43:14,000 --> 03:43:16,559
still here. I've still got a little more energy. If

3816
03:43:16,600 --> 03:43:19,399
anybody wants to hop up on the panel.

3817
03:43:20,639 --> 03:43:25,799
Speaker 4: Topics, So are Calvinism, Protestantism, Catholicism, islam, atheism. If you

3818
03:43:25,840 --> 03:43:28,479
would like to discuss, if you would like to debate,

3819
03:43:28,600 --> 03:43:41,319
if you would like to offer an argument, Alexander, go ahead, yes.

3820
03:43:41,200 --> 03:43:42,719
Speaker 3: Sir, all right? Cool.

3821
03:43:42,920 --> 03:43:45,799
Speaker 54: I had a question when talking to Calvinists and they

3822
03:43:45,840 --> 03:43:48,559
start playing the that's not what we actually believe game.

3823
03:43:49,280 --> 03:43:50,319
Speaker 3: What do you go to look at?

3824
03:43:51,040 --> 03:43:53,719
Speaker 54: Because a couple of times I've talked some and they've said, oh,

3825
03:43:53,760 --> 03:43:55,879
that's not what we actually believe, that's not what Calvin Todd,

3826
03:43:55,879 --> 03:43:57,319
and I look it up and that is what Calvin

3827
03:43:57,360 --> 03:44:00,840
Todd kind of like how I went and sat down

3828
03:44:00,920 --> 03:44:03,159
and read all the Vatican two after getting tired of

3829
03:44:03,559 --> 03:44:04,680
Catholics doing the same thing.

3830
03:44:04,799 --> 03:44:05,479
Speaker 3: What do you recommend?

3831
03:44:06,520 --> 03:44:09,280
Speaker 54: What do you recommend reading as far as refuting Calvinists

3832
03:44:09,280 --> 03:44:10,040
when they start doing that.

3833
03:44:12,600 --> 03:44:18,159
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I mean, well there's there's different, you know,

3834
03:44:19,360 --> 03:44:21,719
groups of Calvinists, so they're all going to kind of

3835
03:44:21,760 --> 03:44:24,559
have their pay their favorite sort of peteologians. I mean,

3836
03:44:25,319 --> 03:44:28,120
you can't go wrong in Calvinism with the fifteen to

3837
03:44:28,120 --> 03:44:34,440
fifty nine institutes, the Westminster Confession, Charles Hodge, John Murray,

3838
03:44:36,239 --> 03:44:39,000
I mean, those are all kind of the you know Luminaries,

3839
03:44:39,200 --> 03:44:43,319
Francis Puritan. I mean, those are all pretty well known

3840
03:44:43,479 --> 03:44:49,959
representatives of Calvinism. Okay, you know, put that on the

3841
03:44:50,000 --> 03:44:57,159
reading list. There's also Bavving systematic theology as a classic.

3842
03:44:59,280 --> 03:45:02,120
Speaker 54: Okay, yeah, I'll get around to it eventually, but mostly

3843
03:45:02,200 --> 03:45:04,319
I'm just going to try not to talk to Calvinists.

3844
03:45:05,200 --> 03:45:08,399
Speaker 4: Well, i mean, the Westminster Confession itself, might be the most,

3845
03:45:08,879 --> 03:45:10,719
you know, because it's intended to kind of be their

3846
03:45:11,920 --> 03:45:13,200
confession of faith and.

3847
03:45:15,000 --> 03:45:17,479
Speaker 3: It's not that long. It's just like, I don't know,

3848
03:45:17,600 --> 03:45:20,440
twenty nine or thirty paragraphs. But it does have a

3849
03:45:20,479 --> 03:45:23,319
catechism with it, so you could have the Westminster Confession

3850
03:45:23,399 --> 03:45:28,399
or the Westminster Catechism would be the classical Calvinist confession.

3851
03:45:28,799 --> 03:45:37,479
What's up, job, Yes, sir, Yeah.

3852
03:45:37,479 --> 03:45:40,360
Speaker 4: When I was a Calvinist, we used the Westminster Confession

3853
03:45:40,399 --> 03:45:42,360
and Catechism all the time. That was kind of our

3854
03:45:43,280 --> 03:45:46,120
If people converted that they would use that as catechism.

3855
03:45:53,360 --> 03:45:54,159
Speaker 3: Go ahead, man, what's up?

3856
03:45:55,959 --> 03:46:00,479
Speaker 26: I wanted to ask a question about vicious circularity and

3857
03:46:00,719 --> 03:46:04,799
how if you or Father Deacon could help define it

3858
03:46:04,920 --> 03:46:05,200
for me.

3859
03:46:07,000 --> 03:46:07,920
Speaker 3: He's probably the best for this.

3860
03:46:10,399 --> 03:46:16,159
Speaker 26: So I've heard like vicious circularity as opposed to or

3861
03:46:16,200 --> 03:46:21,040
being virtuously circular as opposed to vicious circularity, and I've

3862
03:46:21,079 --> 03:46:23,559
been trying to like study this just to give like

3863
03:46:23,600 --> 03:46:24,760
a clear definition on it.

3864
03:46:26,120 --> 03:46:29,000
Speaker 3: So he.

3865
03:46:30,920 --> 03:46:34,920
Speaker 4: Argues that circularity is just a loaded term, and that's confusing.

3866
03:46:35,040 --> 03:46:39,280
So he argues that at a paradigm level, at the

3867
03:46:39,360 --> 03:46:44,879
base level, worldviews are self referencing, are recursive, and that

3868
03:46:45,040 --> 03:46:49,000
that might help avoid the confusion over the fallacy of

3869
03:46:49,159 --> 03:46:50,079
circular reasonings.

3870
03:46:50,319 --> 03:46:53,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's exactly right.

3871
03:46:56,799 --> 03:47:03,399
Speaker 8: Yeah, obviously, so it's typically vicious circularity. And I don't

3872
03:47:03,399 --> 03:47:12,360
even use virtuous circularity because it's confusing, so but yeah,

3873
03:47:12,760 --> 03:47:26,319
typically vicious circularity is where the the argument's conclusion is

3874
03:47:26,399 --> 03:47:31,479
basically one of the premises. So what supports the conclusion

3875
03:47:32,319 --> 03:47:37,239
the premises. The premises support the conclusion. And this can

3876
03:47:37,319 --> 03:47:39,440
be done in a different way where you slightly reword it,

3877
03:47:40,239 --> 03:47:44,159
or you go through a chain of reasoning that goes back, well,

3878
03:47:44,200 --> 03:47:46,319
this is true. If this is true, this is true,

3879
03:47:47,239 --> 03:47:52,200
which goes back to the first stuff like that is

3880
03:47:54,920 --> 03:48:03,000
is typically what's considered premise circularity or vicious circularity. But

3881
03:48:03,120 --> 03:48:07,959
obviously not all circularity is bad. I mean, if you

3882
03:48:08,079 --> 03:48:10,680
draw a circle on a paper, it's is that a fallacy,

3883
03:48:14,600 --> 03:48:15,440
right right?

3884
03:48:15,600 --> 03:48:20,079
Speaker 26: I heard an atheist talk about tag like, oh, this

3885
03:48:20,200 --> 03:48:24,799
is viciously circular because premise one God's the necessary condition

3886
03:48:24,920 --> 03:48:28,719
for knowledge is basically just being restated and the conclusion

3887
03:48:28,920 --> 03:48:34,280
therefore God exists. And my understanding is that, no, that's

3888
03:48:34,360 --> 03:48:37,879
not viciously circular because premise one is in fact not

3889
03:48:38,000 --> 03:48:42,879
identical to the conclusion, right, and so vicious circularity would

3890
03:48:42,920 --> 03:48:46,840
it be that it would be viciously circular if God

3891
03:48:46,920 --> 03:48:50,280
is the necessary condition for knowledge, we have knowledge. Therefore

3892
03:48:50,319 --> 03:48:52,040
God is the necessary condition for knowledge.

3893
03:48:52,360 --> 03:48:55,319
Speaker 8: And that's not the only art. I mean, I could

3894
03:48:55,360 --> 03:48:57,799
just plug whatever I want it in and it's like, well,

3895
03:48:57,840 --> 03:49:02,799
it makes it true. God's true because I assume He

3896
03:49:02,920 --> 03:49:07,159
must be the necessary conditions. If it was simply that,

3897
03:49:07,479 --> 03:49:14,639
obviously that is vicious circularity. But the support for that

3898
03:49:15,600 --> 03:49:23,680
is twofold one is impossibility of the contrary and number

3899
03:49:23,719 --> 03:49:28,760
two which is the indirect account, and number two is

3900
03:49:30,120 --> 03:49:34,799
the positive account that for the entire paradigm. So it's

3901
03:49:34,879 --> 03:49:38,639
not simply we're playing in a word, we mean something

3902
03:49:38,719 --> 03:49:43,319
very specific by the term God, which includes the conception

3903
03:49:43,440 --> 03:49:46,120
of the Trinity, is articulated in the Orthodox Faith, and

3904
03:49:46,239 --> 03:49:51,200
so it's God's revelation to mankind is preserved in the

3905
03:49:51,319 --> 03:49:56,319
Orthodox Faith, and that the Orthodox Faith provides all the

3906
03:49:56,360 --> 03:50:03,520
sufficient conditions for the necessary conditions for the possibility of knowledge,

3907
03:50:03,600 --> 03:50:06,360
and nothing else does that. So I mean, if it

3908
03:50:06,479 --> 03:50:11,200
was just while I plug the terman and therefore I

3909
03:50:11,280 --> 03:50:15,120
assume God to prove God, I mean, yeah, that's vicious circular.

3910
03:50:15,239 --> 03:50:18,120
So there's straw man in the arguments, but that's not

3911
03:50:18,239 --> 03:50:25,799
the argument, right. I mean there's a series of kind

3912
03:50:25,840 --> 03:50:28,879
of different arguments that even when I put it in

3913
03:50:28,920 --> 03:50:32,159
the most opponents, there's kind of steps, like, first of all,

3914
03:50:32,200 --> 03:50:36,120
do you even understand what a transcendental deduction is at

3915
03:50:36,159 --> 03:50:42,120
the so we're kind of the logical, metapistemological level, and

3916
03:50:42,239 --> 03:50:44,479
you put it in a form and then there's further

3917
03:50:44,799 --> 03:50:50,040
arguments and support for that. Otherwise, Yeah, it would be

3918
03:50:50,280 --> 03:50:56,399
simply PREMI circularity. I assume God to prove God, and

3919
03:50:56,520 --> 03:51:00,360
I prove God because I assumed him, Like nobody makes

3920
03:51:00,399 --> 03:51:01,760
as far as I know, that argument.

3921
03:51:06,159 --> 03:51:09,319
Speaker 3: Thank you for that question, Joe. Appreciate all the time

3922
03:51:09,399 --> 03:51:12,319
stamping and hard work that you do. Wi Fi. What's up?

3923
03:51:12,360 --> 03:51:12,479
Speaker 5: Man?

3924
03:51:14,239 --> 03:51:14,399
Speaker 31: Hey?

3925
03:51:14,600 --> 03:51:14,760
Speaker 5: Jay?

3926
03:51:14,879 --> 03:51:15,520
Speaker 3: What's up? So?

3927
03:51:16,040 --> 03:51:18,479
Speaker 66: I'm pretty new to the debate scene, and I've been

3928
03:51:18,520 --> 03:51:22,280
debating some atheists, so I've been eager to take more debates,

3929
03:51:22,479 --> 03:51:26,000
and i've kind of I've taken them maybe a little

3930
03:51:26,079 --> 03:51:30,719
too hastily. I'm debating some guys who may be bad

3931
03:51:30,840 --> 03:51:33,079
faith or sophistry maybe the right term.

3932
03:51:33,559 --> 03:51:34,840
Speaker 8: I think he debated one of them.

3933
03:51:34,959 --> 03:51:37,440
Speaker 66: His name is Korn's and I just I guess wanted

3934
03:51:37,680 --> 03:51:40,000
your opinion on how to deal with these types of

3935
03:51:40,040 --> 03:51:40,760
people in debate.

3936
03:51:44,120 --> 03:51:46,680
Speaker 3: Well, honestly, I would have waste my time with debating

3937
03:51:47,440 --> 03:51:48,559
bad faith debaters.

3938
03:51:48,639 --> 03:51:52,200
Speaker 4: I just think it's a massive drain. And a lot

3939
03:51:52,239 --> 03:51:54,799
of people are a lot of people internet a board

3940
03:51:54,840 --> 03:51:57,120
and they're just kind of like wandering around looking for

3941
03:51:57,200 --> 03:51:59,680
something to do, and they'll just debate for the hell

3942
03:51:59,719 --> 03:52:01,799
of it, adopting positions that they don't hold.

3943
03:52:01,840 --> 03:52:03,200
Speaker 3: So I would just not waste my time.

3944
03:52:03,680 --> 03:52:06,760
Speaker 4: I would be catechized in Orthodoxy before debating, and and

3945
03:52:07,360 --> 03:52:08,680
to go that rout peep the sheep.

3946
03:52:08,719 --> 03:52:17,200
Speaker 3: What's up? Hello? Yeah?

3947
03:52:17,280 --> 03:52:17,799
Speaker 5: What's up? Man?

3948
03:52:20,079 --> 03:52:20,760
Speaker 3: Wait? Am I on?

3949
03:52:22,840 --> 03:52:23,120
Speaker 6: You are?

3950
03:52:24,399 --> 03:52:24,719
Speaker 3: Okay?

3951
03:52:25,719 --> 03:52:27,639
Speaker 67: I didn't expect to get on this early, kind of

3952
03:52:27,719 --> 03:52:29,360
trying to think about what I want to say, but

3953
03:52:30,280 --> 03:52:33,239
I just want to say I'm a big fan. I

3954
03:52:33,520 --> 03:52:36,600
just tuned in, so I read the topics and I

3955
03:52:36,680 --> 03:52:40,719
guess you're debating, you know, the different denominations and whatever.

3956
03:52:41,719 --> 03:52:42,760
Speaker 30: So where up again?

3957
03:52:43,319 --> 03:52:43,479
Speaker 5: Uh?

3958
03:52:43,840 --> 03:52:45,680
Speaker 67: Yeah, So I'm a Protestant. I grew up in the

3959
03:52:45,799 --> 03:52:52,360
South and basically discovering your content, uh just made me

3960
03:52:52,440 --> 03:52:56,600
realize that it was a bunch of you know byes honestly,

3961
03:52:56,840 --> 03:53:02,159
and it was di y and kind of just being

3962
03:53:02,360 --> 03:53:06,120
stuck in that circle and then hearing all about all

3963
03:53:06,200 --> 03:53:09,319
the solo fide and so like solo scriptore and all

3964
03:53:09,360 --> 03:53:10,959
that stuff, Like I never heard about any of that

3965
03:53:11,040 --> 03:53:13,639
stuff in my life, and then you introduced me to that,

3966
03:53:13,799 --> 03:53:16,600
and I bought an Orthodox study Bible, and I've been

3967
03:53:16,639 --> 03:53:19,440
watching a lot of your content for years. Actually found

3968
03:53:19,440 --> 03:53:26,239
you on f wars. But basically, okay, so yeah, I

3969
03:53:26,360 --> 03:53:29,000
know you want a debate. You don't really like people,

3970
03:53:29,760 --> 03:53:34,239
ah coming on here asking you questions about Catechism and

3971
03:53:34,280 --> 03:53:38,200
all that stuff. Uh So, a couple of things I

3972
03:53:38,319 --> 03:53:40,959
was thinking of that I've heard you mentioned before, but

3973
03:53:41,639 --> 03:53:45,399
I'd never really felt where fleshed out completely is.

3974
03:53:48,200 --> 03:53:49,200
Speaker 3: Let's see, so.

3975
03:53:51,360 --> 03:53:56,680
Speaker 67: The it's kind of ambiguous because of uh I forget

3976
03:53:56,760 --> 03:54:00,479
the terms that you said, but you said that basically

3977
03:54:00,600 --> 03:54:04,000
scripture can be described and is it three or four

3978
03:54:04,079 --> 03:54:08,520
different ways like ontological. I'm a bit of a slow boy.

3979
03:54:08,440 --> 03:54:09,120
Speaker 3: So bear with you.

3980
03:54:09,280 --> 03:54:12,680
Speaker 4: But no, no, no, that's that's not that. It's called

3981
03:54:13,719 --> 03:54:16,760
the fourth senses of scripture. Yeah, talking about the literal,

3982
03:54:16,879 --> 03:54:23,719
the literal, the spiritual, allegorical, the tropological.

3983
03:54:23,000 --> 03:54:25,959
Speaker 67: And the anagogical Yes, yes, yes, and that's the first time,

3984
03:54:26,360 --> 03:54:27,920
Like I said, like, you open my eyes to a

3985
03:54:28,000 --> 03:54:28,639
lot of that stuff.

3986
03:54:29,159 --> 03:54:32,280
Speaker 8: And because growing up Baptist, you know, you got.

3987
03:54:32,360 --> 03:54:34,760
Speaker 67: To remember a couple of verses and go to church

3988
03:54:34,840 --> 03:54:37,559
every now and then and say that you're you know,

3989
03:54:37,719 --> 03:54:40,120
you're moral and this and that and that's pretty much it.

3990
03:54:40,799 --> 03:54:44,440
But I do believe what you say is true, you know,

3991
03:54:44,680 --> 03:54:47,719
like there's a history to it and there's a reason

3992
03:54:47,799 --> 03:54:50,639
you follow certain canons and scriptures and all that stuff.

3993
03:54:50,680 --> 03:54:52,239
Speaker 3: So I do agree with that.

3994
03:54:54,079 --> 03:54:57,719
Speaker 8: But oh yeah, So the the question I have is

3995
03:54:58,360 --> 03:55:01,000
how do you know when to apply one of those.

3996
03:55:02,799 --> 03:55:03,760
Speaker 5: What was it again?

3997
03:55:03,840 --> 03:55:04,239
Speaker 3: I forget?

3998
03:55:04,280 --> 03:55:07,959
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, right, So these are this is called hermanudicts,

3999
03:55:08,040 --> 03:55:13,559
which is the interpretation of the scriptures. Okay, so hermanudicts

4000
03:55:13,639 --> 03:55:16,360
is not like there's principles and rules, but there's no

4001
03:55:17,159 --> 03:55:21,639
hard and fast uh way or science necessarily that's going

4002
03:55:21,719 --> 03:55:27,239
to tell you automatically when to interpret which text, just

4003
03:55:27,360 --> 03:55:30,079
on the basis of that principle of the fourth senses.

4004
03:55:30,879 --> 03:55:36,120
So for example, exa Jesus means reading the text, looking

4005
03:55:36,159 --> 03:55:39,959
at the language, the context, and figuring out what the

4006
03:55:40,280 --> 03:55:44,239
original language means and what the writers were intending to convey.

4007
03:55:44,959 --> 03:55:47,600
So actually Jesus is just understanding the meanings of the

4008
03:55:47,639 --> 03:55:52,239
words and the texts in a raw sense, but hermeneuticts

4009
03:55:52,440 --> 03:55:56,559
is interpreting the text and looking at the different deeper

4010
03:55:56,719 --> 03:55:58,239
senses and meanings that might.

4011
03:55:58,239 --> 03:55:59,000
Speaker 3: Also be there.

4012
03:56:00,000 --> 03:56:01,639
Speaker 4: So you can kind of go crazy with this like

4013
03:56:01,799 --> 03:56:05,840
Origin did, where he over allegorized everything. But you can

4014
03:56:05,920 --> 03:56:08,639
also be too extreme in the other direction of being

4015
03:56:08,719 --> 03:56:13,559
a literalist or focusing on only the grammatical historical context,

4016
03:56:14,120 --> 03:56:16,639
which is just the first layer or level of scripture.

4017
03:56:17,280 --> 03:56:20,200
But it doesn't necessaridate that every single verse has quote

4018
03:56:20,239 --> 03:56:20,920
four senses.

4019
03:56:21,559 --> 03:56:23,440
Speaker 3: It's a little more nuanced.

4020
03:56:23,040 --> 03:56:26,760
Speaker 4: Than that because some, you know, passages of scripture are

4021
03:56:26,920 --> 03:56:30,920
just straightforward. They're just meant to be, for example, proverbs,

4022
03:56:31,440 --> 03:56:35,159
although some proverbs do have a deeper spiritual significance, like

4023
03:56:35,959 --> 03:56:38,280
you know, in the first few chapters of Proverbs, when

4024
03:56:38,319 --> 03:56:42,520
it talks about lady Wisdom and the seven pillars that

4025
03:56:42,600 --> 03:56:44,799
she's built her house and she brings bread and wine.

4026
03:56:44,959 --> 03:56:48,159
That's obviously a type of the church. But a lot

4027
03:56:48,200 --> 03:56:54,239
of the proverbs are just you know, basic wisdom, avoid wickedness,

4028
03:56:54,440 --> 03:56:56,559
be righteous, you know what I mean, it's like, there's

4029
03:56:56,600 --> 03:56:58,479
not four sensits of that, it's just kind of what

4030
03:56:58,600 --> 03:57:03,959
it is. But you have to, I think, be very

4031
03:57:04,040 --> 03:57:07,799
familiar with the Biblical literature and also different types of

4032
03:57:07,920 --> 03:57:11,479
literature in the scriptures, such as if you're reading you know,

4033
03:57:11,760 --> 03:57:18,280
poetic literature, prophetic literature, liturgical literature like the Psalms, historical

4034
03:57:19,040 --> 03:57:21,440
accounts like the Book of Kings like so you got

4035
03:57:21,520 --> 03:57:23,760
to understand the different types of literature in the Bible

4036
03:57:23,760 --> 03:57:25,959
as well. And if you if you go to seminary,

4037
03:57:26,040 --> 03:57:29,319
if you go to Bible school, you'll learn all this stuff.

4038
03:57:29,440 --> 03:57:32,159
This is all just kind of basic and and all

4039
03:57:32,239 --> 03:57:36,280
that stuff's not even unique to like Orthodoxy, Like every Protestant,

4040
03:57:36,360 --> 03:57:39,959
Catholic Orthodox seminary will teach you all that same stuff.

4041
03:57:41,079 --> 03:57:53,200
Speaker 3: Job, what's up? And just had to show, I mean

4042
03:57:53,200 --> 03:57:54,239
to boot you out how you were done?

4043
03:57:55,000 --> 03:57:59,440
Speaker 26: Oh no words. And this is different from about the

4044
03:57:59,520 --> 03:58:03,639
vicious quilarity thing. It's just kind of about the first

4045
03:58:03,799 --> 03:58:07,399
order verse second order thing. I wanted to refresh my

4046
03:58:07,559 --> 03:58:12,360
memory on. So is it correct to say that first

4047
03:58:12,600 --> 03:58:18,000
order statements are constitutive of second order statements?

4048
03:58:18,079 --> 03:58:18,399
Speaker 3: So like.

4049
03:58:20,559 --> 03:58:27,000
Speaker 26: If someone says God does not exist, right, like this

4050
03:58:27,120 --> 03:58:28,799
is the whole like old j Mike thing. He likes

4051
03:58:28,840 --> 03:58:32,159
to ask people like, does the proposition God does not

4052
03:58:32,239 --> 03:58:36,959
exist entail a contradiction? And I was thinking about this

4053
03:58:37,479 --> 03:58:43,680
and I think it absolutely does, because in the light

4054
03:58:43,719 --> 03:58:46,159
of the Christian paradigm, if God does not exist, then

4055
03:58:47,280 --> 03:58:50,799
that would destroy the possibility of knowledge to make any

4056
03:58:51,000 --> 03:58:54,079
second order statements about first order?

4057
03:58:54,799 --> 03:58:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, is that correct?

4058
03:58:57,479 --> 03:59:02,920
Speaker 8: And first order is usually it's the second order our statements.

4059
03:59:03,040 --> 03:59:12,360
First orders are Jim believes the tree is green, then

4060
03:59:12,479 --> 03:59:15,159
Jim makes a statement I know the tree is green,

4061
03:59:15,520 --> 03:59:19,159
or the Jim makes a statement the tree is green,

4062
03:59:19,319 --> 03:59:25,120
which implies those are second order statements. So typically the

4063
03:59:25,200 --> 03:59:28,520
first order is just being in the mental state of

4064
03:59:28,920 --> 03:59:29,600
knowing something.

4065
03:59:30,159 --> 03:59:33,440
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Right?

4066
03:59:33,559 --> 03:59:39,879
Speaker 26: First order is a knowledge claim, right, Yeah.

4067
03:59:39,719 --> 03:59:42,959
Speaker 8: But I want to make the difference that it's really

4068
03:59:43,120 --> 03:59:49,559
statements are usually it's a second order beliefs that you

4069
03:59:49,680 --> 03:59:52,479
believe something and it qualifies as knowledge as a first order.

4070
03:59:52,520 --> 03:59:55,959
Does that make sense? So not your statement about what

4071
03:59:56,120 --> 03:59:58,440
you believe? Those are second order?

4072
04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:01,639
Speaker 26: Okay, Okay, I didn't.

4073
04:00:01,799 --> 04:00:03,360
Speaker 3: I didn't get that, but.

4074
04:00:03,440 --> 04:00:09,319
Speaker 8: I would add, yes, it does entail contradiction because once

4075
04:00:09,399 --> 04:00:13,760
you prove that God's a necessary condition uniquely, so the

4076
04:00:13,840 --> 04:00:19,000
possibility of knowledge. They already assume the a necessary condition

4077
04:00:19,959 --> 04:00:23,600
for the possibility knowledge because they're making knowledge statements. Then

4078
04:00:23,639 --> 04:00:27,920
you show that it's God, but they deny God. So

4079
04:00:28,000 --> 04:00:30,879
they're both affirming and denying the necessary condition for the

4080
04:00:30,920 --> 04:00:32,559
possibility knowledge, which is a contradiction.

4081
04:00:36,079 --> 04:00:37,799
Speaker 26: Correct. Yeah, that's that makes sense.

4082
04:00:41,040 --> 04:00:43,000
Speaker 3: All right, thank you job. I want to go on

4083
04:00:43,239 --> 04:00:45,399
next to Isaiah. What's up?

4084
04:00:46,639 --> 04:00:46,799
Speaker 5: Hey?

4085
04:00:46,959 --> 04:00:49,200
Speaker 3: Can you assume me? Yes, ma'am?

4086
04:00:49,840 --> 04:00:50,200
Speaker 44: All right.

4087
04:00:50,920 --> 04:00:54,159
Speaker 60: So I'm new here and lovely rooms.

4088
04:00:54,639 --> 04:00:55,360
Speaker 8: Hello everyone.

4089
04:00:56,000 --> 04:00:58,159
Speaker 60: So I had two things I'll try to be quick.

4090
04:00:58,840 --> 04:01:02,600
The first, so the father was speaking about the freshmen

4091
04:01:02,719 --> 04:01:06,399
being hesitant. I guess you'd say, to deal with a

4092
04:01:06,479 --> 04:01:10,959
quinas and have those arguments. And I had the same

4093
04:01:11,040 --> 04:01:13,680
experience myself when I was a freshman dealing with a quinas.

4094
04:01:14,200 --> 04:01:18,239
And we were given an exercise which was interesting, where

4095
04:01:18,280 --> 04:01:20,879
we all came up with our own arguments, and then

4096
04:01:21,479 --> 04:01:24,239
the room was split to where half of us steelmanned,

4097
04:01:24,319 --> 04:01:26,760
and then half of us would argue against it, and

4098
04:01:26,879 --> 04:01:30,079
it took away like the fear of dealing with such

4099
04:01:30,120 --> 04:01:33,159
a seminal work. And then after that no one was

4100
04:01:33,239 --> 04:01:36,000
like deer in the headlights anymore, so maybe helpful, I

4101
04:01:36,040 --> 04:01:40,440
don't know, but yeah, so just the thought and then yeah,

4102
04:01:40,559 --> 04:01:44,280
in terms of you mentioned ex of Jesus, and my

4103
04:01:45,440 --> 04:01:48,120
question for you gentlemen, as you seem to be well

4104
04:01:48,239 --> 04:01:52,360
versed on the Greek and I've just begun getting into Greek,

4105
04:01:52,760 --> 04:01:56,399
what do you guys think are the most interesting or relevant.

4106
04:01:58,120 --> 04:02:02,079
I don't want to say mistranslations, but mistranslations where like

4107
04:02:02,440 --> 04:02:06,440
things don't translate exactly into English that kind of stick

4108
04:02:06,479 --> 04:02:06,719
out to you.

4109
04:02:10,719 --> 04:02:13,879
Speaker 4: I'm not a linguist and I'm not a Greek scholar,

4110
04:02:14,200 --> 04:02:17,239
not a textual scholar, so I'm not familiar really with

4111
04:02:18,079 --> 04:02:22,000
textual issues in translating certain terms. I mean, I know

4112
04:02:22,120 --> 04:02:24,639
that does exist, but I don't think it really is

4113
04:02:25,600 --> 04:02:28,920
detrimental to the overall message. I think God is able

4114
04:02:29,000 --> 04:02:32,680
to communicate in every language the basics of the message.

4115
04:02:33,280 --> 04:02:35,719
But there are certain languages like Greek, for example, that

4116
04:02:35,920 --> 04:02:41,399
allow for philosophical metaphysical distinctions that languages like Latin don't have.

4117
04:02:42,120 --> 04:02:47,040
Doctor Bradshaw, for example, argues that the essence entergiesstinction did

4118
04:02:47,079 --> 04:02:50,159
it make sense even in the Latin language, whereas in

4119
04:02:50,319 --> 04:02:51,840
Greek theology and philosophy.

4120
04:02:51,920 --> 04:02:52,920
Speaker 3: It made perfect sense.

4121
04:02:52,959 --> 04:02:54,760
Speaker 4: And so that's one of the reasons why the Western

4122
04:02:55,639 --> 04:02:59,319
Latin Church fathers did not develop in the sense of

4123
04:02:59,399 --> 04:03:02,760
explication being the center distinction that theology that the Eastern

4124
04:03:02,840 --> 04:03:06,559
Church did. But I'm not a linguist and a scholar

4125
04:03:06,680 --> 04:03:07,920
of texts.

4126
04:03:12,000 --> 04:03:14,399
Speaker 60: Okay, Yeah, I was just curious. Again, I've heard you

4127
04:03:15,159 --> 04:03:18,360
speak of a few Greek phrases in your knowledge of them.

4128
04:03:19,239 --> 04:03:22,440
You know, like the word sin, for example, is like

4129
04:03:22,559 --> 04:03:25,479
the actual verb to sin is you know, it means

4130
04:03:25,520 --> 04:03:28,120
to throw a spear and miss the target, and like

4131
04:03:28,239 --> 04:03:30,959
that is a big difference, you know, just in the

4132
04:03:31,079 --> 04:03:34,520
actual meaning. And so I think I think you're correct,

4133
04:03:34,559 --> 04:03:38,120
and you know, the the application of the metaphor is

4134
04:03:38,319 --> 04:03:41,959
obviously the same. But yeah, I was just scurious. Thanks

4135
04:03:42,280 --> 04:03:43,319
thanks for letting me speak.

4136
04:03:44,319 --> 04:03:44,559
Speaker 3: Sure.

4137
04:03:44,799 --> 04:03:48,600
Speaker 4: I mean, a lot of the Orthodox world uses a

4138
04:03:48,639 --> 04:03:52,280
lot of terminology from the heritage of the Church and

4139
04:03:53,200 --> 04:03:55,879
from the New Testament, but I don't know the Greek.

4140
04:03:56,520 --> 04:03:59,239
I know the Greek alphabet, and I know a lot

4141
04:03:59,280 --> 04:04:03,000
of the theology terms and their usage of meaning, but

4142
04:04:03,120 --> 04:04:05,159
I do not know uh.

4143
04:04:06,360 --> 04:04:11,079
Speaker 3: E elect elect electorum, I Q.

4144
04:04:19,399 --> 04:04:19,959
Speaker 43: Are you there?

4145
04:04:29,200 --> 04:04:32,040
Speaker 3: Illustrationist yep, and that's me.

4146
04:04:34,280 --> 04:04:34,840
Speaker 5: I had.

4147
04:04:35,079 --> 04:04:38,319
Speaker 68: Let's see, at first, I had a few questions about predestination,

4148
04:04:38,600 --> 04:04:44,200
but I think the orthodox understanding of predestination is pretty straightforward. Actually,

4149
04:04:44,239 --> 04:04:47,680
you know what, I'd need some clarification because I've always

4150
04:04:47,719 --> 04:04:51,639
had a Calvinist predisposition. So what would your the orthodox

4151
04:04:51,760 --> 04:04:53,760
understanding of predestination be.

4152
04:04:54,920 --> 04:04:58,840
Speaker 4: Alright, so we already addressed this pretty extensively in the

4153
04:04:58,959 --> 04:05:01,520
first I don't know hour, so I would just say,

4154
04:05:01,639 --> 04:05:04,319
this is a recorded space, so you can go back

4155
04:05:04,399 --> 04:05:05,399
and rewatch that.

4156
04:05:05,520 --> 04:05:07,719
Speaker 3: I don't have the energy to rehearse all that. Do

4157
04:05:07,760 --> 04:05:09,399
you have another question, Yeah?

4158
04:05:09,479 --> 04:05:09,719
Speaker 9: Sure.

4159
04:05:11,399 --> 04:05:14,879
Speaker 68: My other question would be about essence energy distinction. I

4160
04:05:15,360 --> 04:05:18,840
saw a clip of you being interviewed by Michael Lofton

4161
04:05:19,360 --> 04:05:21,799
and you said something to the extent of the essence

4162
04:05:21,840 --> 04:05:24,159
of God subsists within his energies.

4163
04:05:26,000 --> 04:05:28,360
Speaker 3: What's that all about? I didn't.

4164
04:05:28,680 --> 04:05:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the energies proceed from the essence, I said.

4165
04:05:32,079 --> 04:05:37,399
God is fully present in his energies because his actions.

4166
04:05:37,520 --> 04:05:39,639
Speaker 3: So just like if I build a.

4167
04:05:39,719 --> 04:05:44,440
Speaker 4: House, I'm fully present in my action of building a house.

4168
04:05:45,000 --> 04:05:47,799
The action of building a house is an action proper

4169
04:05:47,920 --> 04:05:51,120
to my nature as a human being. It's a human act.

4170
04:05:51,799 --> 04:05:55,239
It's an act by my will. But my will and

4171
04:05:55,440 --> 04:05:58,479
my act of building a house are not identical to

4172
04:05:58,920 --> 04:06:03,440
or reducible to the person Jay nor my nature. So

4173
04:06:03,639 --> 04:06:07,680
the action proceeds from my nature, but it's a personal

4174
04:06:07,840 --> 04:06:10,280
act that I engage in in terms of the mode.

4175
04:06:10,879 --> 04:06:13,559
So does that make sense that the person, the nature,

4176
04:06:13,799 --> 04:06:17,280
the will, the energy, and the effect are all distinct?

4177
04:06:17,799 --> 04:06:20,440
And if you read John of Damascus on the Orthodox

4178
04:06:20,479 --> 04:06:23,600
Faith Book three, chapter fifteen, the very first thing he

4179
04:06:23,680 --> 04:06:27,399
says is nature, person, will, energy and effect are all distinct.

4180
04:06:28,079 --> 04:06:29,399
Speaker 3: Literally the opposite of chemism.

4181
04:06:30,879 --> 04:06:31,159
Speaker 9: Got it?

4182
04:06:31,559 --> 04:06:34,239
Speaker 68: And one last thing, I know there are a lot

4183
04:06:34,239 --> 04:06:36,159
of Protestants out there, and with the Internet, a lot

4184
04:06:36,200 --> 04:06:38,479
of people are looking towards the Apostolic faith.

4185
04:06:39,239 --> 04:06:42,159
Speaker 8: Do you have any advice for anyone who's.

4186
04:06:44,959 --> 04:06:46,000
Speaker 3: I'll be blunt.

4187
04:06:47,399 --> 04:06:51,159
Speaker 68: I'm kind of attending a church that doesn't believe that

4188
04:06:51,600 --> 04:06:55,079
the Communion is the real body and blood of Jesus,

4189
04:06:55,159 --> 04:06:57,959
and I've had doubts about that, and as a result,

4190
04:06:58,120 --> 04:07:03,159
i haven't been partaking of the symbolic Communion, and frankly,

4191
04:07:03,319 --> 04:07:05,680
I don't know how to put my faith into practice.

4192
04:07:06,000 --> 04:07:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm kind of in this gray zone. Any advice to

4193
04:07:10,719 --> 04:07:13,840
the Orthodox Church is only true church, so where you're

4194
04:07:13,879 --> 04:07:17,920
at not a church. That's my advice. All right, appreciate it,

4195
04:07:18,079 --> 04:07:22,760
thank you. Yeah, I would go check, you.

4196
04:07:22,799 --> 04:07:25,920
Speaker 4: Know, go visit Orthodox church and you will see that,

4197
04:07:26,959 --> 04:07:32,239
you know, the liturgy at least is reverent and organized

4198
04:07:32,559 --> 04:07:34,559
such that they believe that it is.

4199
04:07:34,600 --> 04:07:36,639
Speaker 3: The real presidence, or at least that's the profession of

4200
04:07:36,719 --> 04:07:37,399
the faith.

4201
04:07:39,920 --> 04:07:44,159
Speaker 4: Hence the reverence and the beauty there, which does not

4202
04:07:44,280 --> 04:07:45,520
exist in the Protestant world.

4203
04:07:46,399 --> 04:07:57,840
Speaker 59: Actually, jam, yeah, hey, is it all right to ask

4204
04:07:57,920 --> 04:08:00,760
a question about the Divine Light and Saint Simeon the

4205
04:08:00,799 --> 04:08:01,520
New Theologian.

4206
04:08:03,399 --> 04:08:05,600
Speaker 3: I've read two of the volumes. I haven't read all four,

4207
04:08:05,719 --> 04:08:06,920
but I can comment on.

4208
04:08:06,959 --> 04:08:12,319
Speaker 59: What I know, Alrighty, So I was reading. I wasn't

4209
04:08:12,360 --> 04:08:16,559
actually reading Saint Simeon. I planned to do that later,

4210
04:08:16,719 --> 04:08:20,799
but I came across a quotation that where he seemed

4211
04:08:20,799 --> 04:08:24,239
to be saying that unless one has seen the Divine Light,

4212
04:08:24,399 --> 04:08:27,239
he can't presume to think that he knows Christ, or

4213
04:08:27,319 --> 04:08:31,079
that he has Christ within him, or that he will

4214
04:08:31,159 --> 04:08:36,920
be saved. And so this was concerning because I don't

4215
04:08:36,920 --> 04:08:39,719
think anyone I know has ever seen the Divine Light,

4216
04:08:40,079 --> 04:08:43,920
nor could I imagine myself becoming holy enough to actually

4217
04:08:43,959 --> 04:08:47,319
receive the physical, sensory perception of the divine light.

4218
04:08:50,159 --> 04:08:50,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that.

4219
04:08:52,200 --> 04:08:55,840
Speaker 4: I mean, I need to say the contact, because first

4220
04:08:55,879 --> 04:08:59,600
of all, he was thrown out of his monastery because

4221
04:08:59,680 --> 04:09:03,680
he said that this was available to everyone, and then

4222
04:09:03,959 --> 04:09:06,760
that it was not a thing that was only for

4223
04:09:06,879 --> 04:09:09,959
a chiritual elite. So this doesn't this would this would

4224
04:09:09,959 --> 04:09:14,719
seem to contrast with his arguments because he argued that

4225
04:09:15,440 --> 04:09:18,479
if you argue that the the parlemism was for a

4226
04:09:18,559 --> 04:09:21,680
spiritual elite, he said it was a return of the

4227
04:09:21,719 --> 04:09:26,520
heresy of the missallions. So the comment sounds like it

4228
04:09:26,559 --> 04:09:28,559
would be contrary to the very thing that he dealt

4229
04:09:28,600 --> 04:09:32,239
with in his life, and he seems to speak otherwise

4230
04:09:32,440 --> 04:09:35,479
in the in the books. But and there also might

4231
04:09:35,520 --> 04:09:38,959
be a situation where he's saying that something like, well,

4232
04:09:39,040 --> 04:09:42,280
if you think you have assurance of your salvation, you

4233
04:09:42,280 --> 04:09:43,959
would only be assured of that if you've seen the

4234
04:09:44,000 --> 04:09:44,559
divine light.

4235
04:09:44,719 --> 04:09:47,399
Speaker 3: And you know hardly anybody has seen the divine light.

4236
04:09:48,000 --> 04:09:49,680
And so I would need to I would need to

4237
04:09:49,840 --> 04:09:50,120
see the.

4238
04:09:50,159 --> 04:09:52,079
Speaker 4: Context to see like what he's saying, because it doesn't

4239
04:09:52,120 --> 04:09:55,719
sound like because I mean he he railed against Missallianism,

4240
04:09:55,840 --> 04:09:57,520
and what you're saying sounds like Missallianism.

4241
04:09:58,639 --> 04:10:01,200
Speaker 59: Okay, okay, yeah, I I need to get him and

4242
04:10:01,280 --> 04:10:03,920
read some more of him, but thank you, and I'll

4243
04:10:03,959 --> 04:10:04,479
probably come.

4244
04:10:04,440 --> 04:10:05,559
Speaker 18: Back after i've read something.

4245
04:10:06,120 --> 04:10:07,319
Speaker 3: Do you know where that quote is?

4246
04:10:08,760 --> 04:10:10,799
Speaker 59: If I'm not mistaken, I think it might have been

4247
04:10:11,120 --> 04:10:19,159
in the Saint Vladimir's publish publishing of the of his

4248
04:10:19,440 --> 04:10:20,399
h Now that's the that's.

4249
04:10:20,319 --> 04:10:21,959
Speaker 3: The four volumes. But do you know which are the

4250
04:10:22,040 --> 04:10:22,639
four volumes?

4251
04:10:23,799 --> 04:10:23,879
Speaker 5: Now?

4252
04:10:23,879 --> 04:10:25,399
Speaker 59: I'm gonna have to read it because I came across

4253
04:10:25,440 --> 04:10:26,840
it all nine but I don't have the money to

4254
04:10:26,879 --> 04:10:27,440
buy it right now.

4255
04:10:27,479 --> 04:10:29,159
Speaker 18: But once I do, I'm gonna give it a read.

4256
04:10:30,520 --> 04:10:32,799
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, DM me about it, because I'd be curious

4257
04:10:32,840 --> 04:10:34,760
to go and look it up. But like I said,

4258
04:10:34,760 --> 04:10:36,239
I only have two of the four volumes. I ever

4259
04:10:36,280 --> 04:10:36,680
read them all?

4260
04:10:37,680 --> 04:10:39,120
Speaker 59: Alrighty, sure thing, I'll get back with you.

4261
04:10:43,319 --> 04:10:46,280
Speaker 3: I mean, And also, I might just not know what

4262
04:10:46,399 --> 04:10:49,159
he's talking about, so I know some of you might

4263
04:10:49,920 --> 04:10:51,920
doubt this, but like I've not read all the books.

4264
04:10:52,120 --> 04:10:53,920
So what's up, Brian?

4265
04:10:55,479 --> 04:10:55,559
Speaker 9: Up?

4266
04:10:55,600 --> 04:10:56,000
Speaker 5: What up?

4267
04:10:56,360 --> 04:10:57,079
Speaker 3: Just real quick?

4268
04:10:57,440 --> 04:11:03,280
Speaker 69: I just wanted to add something regarding the communion. Jesus

4269
04:11:03,360 --> 04:11:05,959
said very clearly in the Bible, if you read in

4270
04:11:06,040 --> 04:11:07,319
the King James.

4271
04:11:08,479 --> 04:11:10,200
Speaker 6: Or the older versions.

4272
04:11:10,280 --> 04:11:15,600
Speaker 69: On top of that, that you're to receive food and

4273
04:11:15,840 --> 04:11:19,799
water and wine, and I guess beer and other things.

4274
04:11:20,399 --> 04:11:23,680
With Thanksgiving supposed to pray over your food. You're supposed

4275
04:11:23,680 --> 04:11:27,879
to pray over your water. My kids they pray over

4276
04:11:28,920 --> 04:11:34,639
you know, certain law enforcement officials or politicians, or kids

4277
04:11:34,879 --> 04:11:39,680
or teachers in their lives, and they earnestly and honestly

4278
04:11:40,840 --> 04:11:44,399
before they receive their food or their drink, you know,

4279
04:11:44,520 --> 04:11:46,520
they put blessings on it.

4280
04:11:46,959 --> 04:11:49,680
Speaker 41: And I think that's what communion it really is about.

4281
04:11:51,840 --> 04:11:57,040
I am a Protestant, but I'm a non church going Protestant.

4282
04:11:57,680 --> 04:12:01,399
I used to be in Christian ministry very college, and

4283
04:12:01,520 --> 04:12:05,600
I realized real quick how corrupt these buildings are. So yeah,

4284
04:12:05,799 --> 04:12:08,559
pray over your food, thank you for your time, appreciate

4285
04:12:08,600 --> 04:12:08,920
you guys.

4286
04:12:12,399 --> 04:12:14,440
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's way more than that, because it's

4287
04:12:14,639 --> 04:12:18,319
the institution of the Lord's Supper. Even in Paul's epistles,

4288
04:12:18,920 --> 04:12:22,079
it's more than merely praying over food. If you read

4289
04:12:22,239 --> 04:12:26,200
the Book of Hebrews, it's the fulfillment of the Old Testament,

4290
04:12:26,360 --> 04:12:30,559
alter and temple sacrifice, and Paul says in Hebrews thirteen

4291
04:12:30,680 --> 04:12:33,840
that we have an altar from which the people who

4292
04:12:33,920 --> 04:12:35,120
serve at the tabernacle have.

4293
04:12:35,159 --> 04:12:36,000
Speaker 3: No right to eat.

4294
04:12:36,680 --> 04:12:40,360
Speaker 4: So right away you have a sacrificial element. You have

4295
04:12:40,680 --> 04:12:45,000
a ministerial element of the Melchizedekian priesthood from Hebrews seven,

4296
04:12:45,760 --> 04:12:51,040
all of which suggests that this low church idea of Protestantism,

4297
04:12:51,120 --> 04:12:54,479
that it's some mere meal, misses the whole point of

4298
04:12:54,600 --> 04:12:59,280
what was established, which is a feast that deifies us.

4299
04:13:01,079 --> 04:13:01,879
Speaker 3: A wolf.

4300
04:13:08,079 --> 04:13:08,280
Speaker 14: God.

4301
04:13:08,360 --> 04:13:17,000
Speaker 29: I'm you, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I wanted

4302
04:13:17,079 --> 04:13:19,920
to talk about atheism. I'm not an atheist, but I

4303
04:13:20,040 --> 04:13:23,440
think atheists are kind of weak with their arguments, and

4304
04:13:23,559 --> 04:13:25,920
I kind of want to help them because they don't

4305
04:13:26,000 --> 04:13:29,040
seem to want to tell the truth about being an atheist.

4306
04:13:29,760 --> 04:13:32,920
Let's say I was an atheist and I wanted to,

4307
04:13:33,239 --> 04:13:37,040
you know, little mind exercise. Why would I even care

4308
04:13:37,079 --> 04:13:41,520
about anybody's morals? Why would I just not care about

4309
04:13:41,719 --> 04:13:45,559
just planning my seat and my children and then letting

4310
04:13:45,680 --> 04:13:47,920
them take off and do whatever they're going to do

4311
04:13:48,040 --> 04:13:51,840
and make sure that they live to take over. It's

4312
04:13:51,959 --> 04:13:55,680
like murder, rape or whatever. It seems like they don't

4313
04:13:55,760 --> 04:13:57,559
have the guts to admit the truth.

4314
04:13:58,760 --> 04:13:58,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4315
04:13:59,000 --> 04:14:00,719
Speaker 4: I think that's actually a very for set the point

4316
04:14:00,719 --> 04:14:07,639
about atheists that atheism is a intellectual pretended position, but

4317
04:14:07,680 --> 04:14:09,719
they don't really usually live it out.

4318
04:14:11,360 --> 04:14:13,520
Speaker 29: Yeah, not to say that I feel that way, but

4319
04:14:13,639 --> 04:14:17,440
I just can't understand if I did, I can't understand

4320
04:14:17,520 --> 04:14:20,959
why they wouldn't just tell the truth like the books

4321
04:14:21,079 --> 04:14:24,280
done and stuff. I would want to guarantee my seed

4322
04:14:24,479 --> 04:14:26,719
rules the world, you know, if if I.

4323
04:14:26,840 --> 04:14:32,239
Speaker 3: Had exactly wandven what's up, Caleb?

4324
04:14:37,840 --> 04:14:40,200
Speaker 15: Oh, sorry, I've this is the first time I've done this.

4325
04:14:40,520 --> 04:14:44,600
I was muted, so I am Pentecostal. I even went

4326
04:14:44,639 --> 04:14:48,360
to Bible College for a little bit, but I found

4327
04:14:48,399 --> 04:14:52,559
it to be very disorderly. And I've been interested in

4328
04:14:52,719 --> 04:14:57,200
Orthodoxy for a long time because everything seems to be

4329
04:14:58,120 --> 04:15:00,319
pretty ordered out on what we need to do for

4330
04:15:00,440 --> 04:15:01,399
every specific thing.

4331
04:15:02,079 --> 04:15:03,280
Speaker 3: And I went to a.

4332
04:15:04,000 --> 04:15:09,120
Speaker 15: Orthodox church in my town recently, just a couple months back,

4333
04:15:09,200 --> 04:15:13,879
to see how things were. And I'm not exactly a

4334
04:15:14,000 --> 04:15:17,440
total iconoclast, but I was. I was a little bit like, WHOA,

4335
04:15:17,600 --> 04:15:21,159
this is real different. But none of that is exactly

4336
04:15:21,239 --> 04:15:27,520
why I was confused. I just talked to a priest

4337
04:15:27,600 --> 04:15:29,760
in training. I don't know if his official title was

4338
04:15:29,799 --> 04:15:32,520
a deacon or something like that. I'm not familiar with

4339
04:15:32,559 --> 04:15:35,959
a lot of the language, but he told me, and

4340
04:15:36,040 --> 04:15:38,479
I don't know if this is the official outlook of

4341
04:15:38,559 --> 04:15:43,559
the Orthodox Church, that the Book of Revelation, due to

4342
04:15:43,680 --> 04:15:48,479
some historical issue or something that I don't understand or

4343
04:15:48,559 --> 04:15:53,639
can't remember, isn't treated as total canon. Or maybe it

4344
04:15:53,799 --> 04:15:55,840
was canon and they just don't use it often. I

4345
04:15:56,000 --> 04:15:56,920
just don't remember.

4346
04:15:57,280 --> 04:16:00,440
Speaker 3: I just what is that about. I'm not quite sure

4347
04:16:00,479 --> 04:16:01,200
I understand that.

4348
04:16:02,360 --> 04:16:02,399
Speaker 5: No.

4349
04:16:02,479 --> 04:16:04,799
Speaker 4: I think that's just simply he was just simply incorrect.

4350
04:16:05,760 --> 04:16:08,879
Some of the old, older lists do not list the

4351
04:16:08,920 --> 04:16:11,520
Book of Revelation, and so he might be just looking

4352
04:16:11,559 --> 04:16:15,319
at one of the older lists, to say, from the Canons,

4353
04:16:15,399 --> 04:16:20,239
the Apostolic Canons Canon eighty five, but eventually by the

4354
04:16:21,239 --> 04:16:24,479
the Ecumenical Council, when it lists the canon, it does

4355
04:16:24,559 --> 04:16:27,040
include the Book of Revelation. So some people just look

4356
04:16:27,040 --> 04:16:29,319
at different lists that are older, and I think he

4357
04:16:29,440 --> 04:16:30,280
was just misinformed.

4358
04:16:31,200 --> 04:16:33,239
Speaker 15: Okay, well, thanks, I'll go ahead and try it again

4359
04:16:33,280 --> 04:16:36,079
and just see how it is. Because I was very interested.

4360
04:16:36,159 --> 04:16:38,360
I was just real put off because it was like, well,

4361
04:16:38,399 --> 04:16:39,879
if we can't trust the Bible, what are we doing?

4362
04:16:39,959 --> 04:16:40,120
Speaker 5: Man?

4363
04:16:40,520 --> 04:16:46,079
Speaker 3: I didn't it was yeah, thank you. I don't think

4364
04:16:46,120 --> 04:16:47,920
it's an issue of not trusting the Bible.

4365
04:16:48,040 --> 04:16:50,600
Speaker 4: It's just that the Book of Revelation was a very

4366
04:16:51,120 --> 04:16:55,479
hotly debated text for many centuries. If you look on

4367
04:16:55,559 --> 04:16:59,479
my wall right now, you can see the I retweeted

4368
04:16:59,520 --> 04:17:04,959
the Baptist scholar Lee McDonald where he's talking about Athanasians

4369
04:17:05,000 --> 04:17:09,639
having to convinced the bishops in Rome that Revelation was canonical.

4370
04:17:10,239 --> 04:17:13,879
Speaker 3: So it has a debated history. But some people might

4371
04:17:14,000 --> 04:17:17,319
just think that the Apostolic canon eighty five, which is

4372
04:17:17,360 --> 04:17:20,079
from about the three hundreds, they might think that that's

4373
04:17:20,159 --> 04:17:24,559
the quote right list, but actually the Ecumenical Council is

4374
04:17:24,639 --> 04:17:28,040
the right list, which later does include Revelation.

4375
04:17:28,360 --> 04:17:31,200
Speaker 15: Okay, all right, well, thank you very much. I appreciate

4376
04:17:31,239 --> 04:17:33,920
your time. Thanks again, have a good day.

4377
04:17:36,040 --> 04:17:42,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime. Last one, mkg.

4378
04:17:48,799 --> 04:17:52,520
Speaker 47: Heja and pray all as well. I had a question

4379
04:17:52,680 --> 04:17:57,200
actually about something you touched on two calls ago regarding

4380
04:17:57,280 --> 04:18:01,959
an counterargument. So when I'm explained the monarchy of the

4381
04:18:02,040 --> 04:18:05,360
Father and essentially saying that the word and the Spirit

4382
04:18:05,559 --> 04:18:08,879
come from him, that is his word, his spirit. What

4383
04:18:09,000 --> 04:18:11,319
do I do when someone accuses me of modalism.

4384
04:18:16,879 --> 04:18:20,319
Speaker 4: Well, when you've had early church fathers like Turtullian, and

4385
04:18:20,440 --> 04:18:23,559
I think even the Cappadocians, when they use the analogy

4386
04:18:24,079 --> 04:18:28,360
of word and spirit, it's just an analogy. It's not

4387
04:18:28,680 --> 04:18:33,200
equated to intended to give you, like the full meaning

4388
04:18:33,319 --> 04:18:35,799
of hypostasis and nature.

4389
04:18:36,159 --> 04:18:39,959
Speaker 3: So it's like an analogy. So in other words, people

4390
04:18:40,000 --> 04:18:44,040
can read too much into the analogies. That makes sense, Yeah,

4391
04:18:44,079 --> 04:18:45,079
I guess, I just.

4392
04:18:47,000 --> 04:18:49,239
Speaker 47: I guess I had a good structure in my mind

4393
04:18:50,159 --> 04:18:52,399
for how to relate to the Trinity, and when I

4394
04:18:52,520 --> 04:18:57,239
explain it, that's the only counter that I'm having a

4395
04:18:57,319 --> 04:18:59,760
hard time justifying.

4396
04:19:03,680 --> 04:19:08,959
Speaker 4: Well, I mean even word in spirit though, Like the

4397
04:19:10,280 --> 04:19:13,799
analogy is used to explain how something can be one

4398
04:19:14,040 --> 04:19:16,280
and many at the same time. Right, So I'm a

4399
04:19:16,360 --> 04:19:21,719
person and I have you know, a word that I speak,

4400
04:19:21,799 --> 04:19:24,639
and then there's a breath that accompanies the word, and

4401
04:19:24,760 --> 04:19:29,000
so it's a limited analogy that's intended to explain an

4402
04:19:29,079 --> 04:19:34,360
eternal action of spiration and generation. It's not an analogy

4403
04:19:34,479 --> 04:19:39,239
intended to explain that there's only one person in God

4404
04:19:39,479 --> 04:19:45,040
and that word and spirit are actions, so the analogy

4405
04:19:45,079 --> 04:19:49,159
would be confusing action or energy with person or hypostasis.

4406
04:19:49,879 --> 04:19:52,280
So do you see how these these kinds of analogies

4407
04:19:52,319 --> 04:19:52,920
are very limited?

4408
04:19:52,959 --> 04:19:55,319
Speaker 47: Yeah, no, that makes sense that the final point that

4409
04:19:55,399 --> 04:19:58,040
you made that click for me. Can I ask one

4410
04:19:58,079 --> 04:20:04,440
more question? So I'm actually writing a paper and I

4411
04:20:04,600 --> 04:20:08,520
wanted to know if you had some primary sources in

4412
04:20:08,639 --> 04:20:14,559
mind regarding the schism and specifically regarding the whole philioque thing,

4413
04:20:15,280 --> 04:20:19,360
if you knew of any primary sources, not secondary, that

4414
04:20:19,440 --> 04:20:20,159
I could look to.

4415
04:20:23,879 --> 04:20:26,000
Speaker 4: I don't know what the primary sources would be, Like

4416
04:20:26,159 --> 04:20:31,159
ancient excommunication documents between Rome and the East.

4417
04:20:31,200 --> 04:20:33,040
Speaker 47: What do you mean like of the time you know,

4418
04:20:33,719 --> 04:20:38,159
of the time of the schism basically you know, Father's

4419
04:20:38,200 --> 04:20:40,680
writing about it and their issues with it, and the

4420
04:20:40,760 --> 04:20:44,840
counter arguments of the West. Basically, not a secondary source

4421
04:20:46,000 --> 04:20:47,159
if you had any mind.

4422
04:20:49,600 --> 04:20:50,840
Speaker 4: I don't know off the top of my head what

4423
04:20:51,000 --> 04:20:54,440
the primary source would be. I'm sure there's ancient Vatican,

4424
04:20:54,920 --> 04:20:57,280
you know, excommunication documents or something like that.

4425
04:20:58,120 --> 04:20:59,639
Speaker 47: All right, well, I appreciate it.

4426
04:21:00,959 --> 04:21:17,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh that's it. Thanks, Yeah, it's all good. Yeah,

4427
04:21:18,319 --> 04:21:58,440
what's up? Pedro? You gotta arm youre man? What's up, hey, Pedro?

4428
04:21:58,479 --> 04:22:13,360
You gotta ut man? All right?

4429
04:22:13,360 --> 04:22:16,200
Speaker 4: Well, Pedro's not gonna say anything, so I guess we'll

4430
04:22:16,280 --> 04:22:18,639
just call it a night. Thank you, guys, a lot

4431
04:22:18,680 --> 04:22:21,600
of fun, good conversations. I didn't think James White would

4432
04:22:21,600 --> 04:22:22,399
show up, but that's okay.

4433
04:22:22,840 --> 04:22:24,440
Speaker 3: Oh here he is just right behind you. Look out,

4434
04:22:26,600 --> 04:22:28,520
he's behind me in person here in New Orleans.