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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Stahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening.
Speaker 8: Hunting a Psychopath is a fascinating first hand account of
Speaker 8: the crimes of California's East Area rapist, original Nightstalker, couple's killer.
Speaker 8: Detective Shelby was the first Sacramento detective to make a
Speaker 8: connectction between a series of rapes that began in the
Speaker 8: middle class community's East Sacramento in the late nineteen seventies.
Speaker 8: His book details the efforts to apprehend this psychopath before
Speaker 8: he transformed into a Southern California serial killer who preyed
Speaker 8: upon middle class couples through a terrifying series of home
Speaker 8: invasion murders. This particular series of crimes remains unsolved, leading
Speaker 8: many questions about a violent predator who has been labeled
Speaker 8: one of the most brazen criminals in US history and
Speaker 8: one of the least publicized. Detective Shelby's book is fast
Speaker 8: paced and full of investigative details. The book that we're
Speaker 8: featuring this evening is Hunting a Psychopath, The East Area Rapist,
Speaker 8: Original Nightstalker Investigation with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 8: and detective Richard Shelby. Welcome to the program, Richard Shelby,
Speaker 8: Thanks glad to be here.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Incredible book and.
Speaker 8: We're going to have to get right right into this,
Speaker 8: So let's talk about the very first thing that you
Speaker 8: start off. You begin this book in Visalia, California, in
Speaker 8: nineteen seventy four, where there has been a prowler dubbed
Speaker 8: the Visilia Ransacker, who has terrorized the community for two years,
Speaker 8: breaking and entering and peeping in the windows. So tell
Speaker 8: us about Vasalia, California and the Vasilia Ransacker.
Speaker 3: Well, if i Slia is south of Presno, Central California,
Speaker 3: and their guy down there with that by say ransacker,
Speaker 3: would he take a certain area always the same area
Speaker 3: I believe. And he would prowl, usually on a high
Speaker 3: school game night everybody's away from home, and across the
Speaker 3: street from the hospital down after you which hospital it was,
Speaker 3: but he would take the window screen off the windows
Speaker 3: and from up on the roof. Then he would get
Speaker 3: inside the house and oh, he would go through the
Speaker 3: clothing in the drawers. He would steal men's underwear that
Speaker 3: to me is a whole new one, the women's lingerie.
Speaker 3: He would toss the side and throw it around like
Speaker 3: here's met at her or something. I think once he
Speaker 3: laid it down out on a bed. He was known
Speaker 3: to take jump Jewey, but not a complete set. He
Speaker 3: might take a part of one and leave apart. And
Speaker 3: he was seen a few times, and usually when he
Speaker 3: was he was talking to a phantom next to him.
Speaker 3: Man saw him one night and the guy turned to
Speaker 3: his left and said, we got to get out of here, ben,
Speaker 3: and there's nobody there. And then I think towards the end,
Speaker 3: it was in September of seventy five a girl woke
Speaker 3: up and this creep had his hand over her mouth
Speaker 3: and was taking her outside until she had to come
Speaker 3: with him. When he goes out the door, her father,
Speaker 3: Professor Snelly, here's something. He comes to the front door
Speaker 3: and asks the guy where he's taking my daughter. The
Speaker 3: suspect turned and fired twice, hit mister Professor Snelling twice,
Speaker 3: who died at the scene. He turned in the gun
Speaker 3: in the girl's face and then he pulled the back
Speaker 3: and kicked her in the face in the left. That
Speaker 3: was in September. Then in the following December, the was
Speaker 3: the sergeant Vaughn and especially Age McGowan was taking out
Speaker 3: the neighborhood and there with the guy in prowling, here's
Speaker 3: no question about that, and especially at McGowan heard him
Speaker 3: walk by the down the sidewalk from where he was hiding.
Speaker 3: So he walked up when the guy and the guy
Speaker 3: was standing looking in the window of the house. My
Speaker 3: gallant pulled his gun, held the light up, told the
Speaker 3: guy to turn around whatever it was, and the suspect
Speaker 3: turn looked at him. He pulled his hat off his
Speaker 3: head with the right hand, based in his left pocket
Speaker 3: with his left hand. While it was kind of squeaking,
Speaker 3: don't hurt me, donor hurt me, pull out of gun.
Speaker 3: He fired, went round at the officer. He went dead.
Speaker 3: Sit her down the line of the flashlight right down
Speaker 3: to the center of the batteries, and then they brought
Speaker 3: in the dogs and everybody else. They figured out later
Speaker 3: not the guy just walked across the highway by the
Speaker 3: hospital was put here in Washington while they were looking
Speaker 3: for him. And then they had the bad learned all
Speaker 3: this was. They went to a criminal profiler, the only
Speaker 3: one who had any real interest in who said the
Speaker 3: suspect worked to the utility company and he probably moved. Well,
Speaker 3: we'd move from from there soon. Well, two days after
Speaker 3: the shooting, the utility company employee requested a transfer up
Speaker 3: by Sacramento, and so they came up here and asked,
Speaker 3: and I met them. They came up to Sacramento to
Speaker 3: tell us what they had and check on ani rapist reports,
Speaker 3: and then they wanted somebody to go to them to
Speaker 3: the town of Davis, fifteen miles away and confront the
Speaker 3: suspect of there's this potential suspect, which is what we did.
Speaker 8: Now before this, there is a controversy that well that
Speaker 8: happens around the same time as well, that there's a
Speaker 8: reports of an early bird rapist and early morning rapist.
Speaker 8: So briefly go into that and how this plays into
Speaker 8: this East area rapist, the very very beginning before anybody
Speaker 8: makes any kind of connections.
Speaker 3: Okay, or the early very rapist. He started in about
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy seventy one, I don't know exactly, was right
Speaker 3: in there somewhere, and while he was active, he committed
Speaker 3: forty one rights and he would confront the women in there,
Speaker 3: used to in their apartment. I don't think he went
Speaker 3: in many houses this along now, I can't this year,
Speaker 3: and then pretty soon we kind of thought maybe there
Speaker 3: was a copycat from back up a little bit. He's
Speaker 3: doing this kind of stuff we're talking about. In February fourth,
Speaker 3: February fourth, nineteen seventy six, he was a man was
Speaker 3: seen by a book well. He came in, tried to
Speaker 3: attack the woman and her daughter. They beat him off.
Speaker 3: He came back looking for a medallion, and he stood
Speaker 3: right by a lighted lamp, and the girl saw him too.
Speaker 3: For the results, you got a good look at him.
Speaker 3: And by chance, a band parked across the field near
Speaker 3: their house was seen by a citizen who walked up
Speaker 3: and looked at and put down the license late called
Speaker 3: it in. Two officers came up walked around and looked
Speaker 3: at it and wrote it down, and then the way
Speaker 3: he checked it back and came to this carpet layer
Speaker 3: out of Pollock Pines, California. Well, February sixth, seventy six,
Speaker 3: as I had promoted inspector, there was in my office.
Speaker 3: A month or so after that, Carold Daily, Detective Daily,
Speaker 3: walked in and dropped his hustack reports on my desk
Speaker 3: and said, have fun. Captain Thumb said you have you these?
Speaker 3: So I got into him as I goot out all
Speaker 3: this information. Well, we know he was the guy. We
Speaker 3: know this guy was Theredeburg rapist. We also figured out
Speaker 3: he had a copycat who was his father. Was well
Speaker 3: known in the local media circles and were focused on him,
Speaker 3: and he packed up and he left and he went
Speaker 3: to Montana and he just barely skated out of here.
Speaker 3: The copycat. It was zero evidence, absolutely nothing. I became
Speaker 3: interested in him because he was interested in the raps
Speaker 3: or gave him polygraph which he flunked. Well. Then in
Speaker 3: June there's the first attack, first known attack by these
Speaker 3: day rapists. Nobody connected it, and we go along until
Speaker 3: the following October when I got into it, and then
Speaker 3: I kind of picked up, there's probably another serial rapist going.
Speaker 4: Guy.
Speaker 3: I knew it wasn't the same guy, and I think
Speaker 3: it was in uh after the assault number seven assault November.
Speaker 3: I told Lieutenant Route, the executive officer, and detectives, we
Speaker 3: had another one going. Then he kind of spread the word.
Speaker 3: Pretty soon just everybody in both departments, county and city
Speaker 3: were saying, well, they're the same guy. I'm telling you
Speaker 3: they're not. They were even the same size, nothing about
Speaker 3: him as the same. Somewhere along the line, somebody kind
Speaker 3: of figured it out, and all of a sudden we
Speaker 3: forgot about the thirty bird rapists and started focusing on
Speaker 3: this hysterio rapists.
Speaker 8: Now, let's let's talk about the October fifth, nineteen seventy
Speaker 8: six assault, because it's very telling because it sets up
Speaker 8: as mo O and that's, of course, is repetitious m
Speaker 8: that you're able to make these connections, especially you earlier
Speaker 8: on than anyone else. So tell us about jan Cooper,
Speaker 8: she's a nurse, and again tell us about what Again.
Speaker 8: You're always trying to look for some kind of connections
Speaker 8: between a victim, but in this first one, you get
Speaker 8: all together the information and she's a nurse and as
Speaker 8: a reserve lieutenant, and there was crank phone call.
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit about.
Speaker 8: Before we describe the exact assault itself, tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit about what happened beforehand, which again is going
Speaker 8: to be important in this story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she she hasn't came home one day and they
Speaker 3: found that somebody had been in her house. I forget
Speaker 3: exactly how now. I just read reports the other day
Speaker 3: and there was some julia there that didn't belong to them,
Speaker 3: and they lost and he called the sheriff's department, and
Speaker 3: I think by figured out the bad guy came in
Speaker 3: through the bedroom window, which is back in the house,
Speaker 3: their little boys room. He was about three. So Jan
Speaker 3: and her husband did the investigation their own. They went
Speaker 3: over the fence and there's a field behind their house
Speaker 3: and they walked across it and they found the black
Speaker 3: sox that belonged to her husband. The guy used it
Speaker 3: for a glove. I'm sure. Well, then they go home.
Speaker 3: It's about a week later. Ecause think the guy comes
Speaker 3: in and she's assaulted. And then I got there and
Speaker 3: patrolman had been there. They've done it. What to call
Speaker 3: the neighborhood canvas. They walked around, talked to all the neighbors,
Speaker 3: and I only talked to a few of them that time.
Speaker 3: And we started putting everything together. And when I figured
Speaker 3: out real fast, was this guy knew that area better
Speaker 3: than the neighbors did. Several people had they thought somebody
Speaker 3: was in the house, couldn't be sure, or somebody was
Speaker 3: and they might have taken some jewelry and left somebody
Speaker 3: else's jewelry. They weren't read through and they were getting
Speaker 3: hang up phone calls, just like Jan got a couple
Speaker 3: one of them. They threatened her husband and then they
Speaker 3: stopped and she's assault. And then when the guy made
Speaker 3: his escape after the assault, he went across that same field,
Speaker 3: a little short street called shadow Brook, and there's two
Speaker 3: houses on the west side, introduced parks in front, and
Speaker 3: the witnesses saw the car at a certain time. What
Speaker 3: boiled down to was he had the timing perfect. His
Speaker 3: car was there. They just happened to see it because
Speaker 3: they brought up garbage. Can't hurry that day. And then
Speaker 3: he left before they came out to go to work,
Speaker 3: because when they came out, the car was gone. He
Speaker 3: had it right then. I was convanced right then that
Speaker 3: this guy somehow I picked that neighborhood and he really
Speaker 3: focused on chan. I didn't know if it was aerial
Speaker 3: rapist or not, but having just within weeks finished that one,
Speaker 3: I was kind of keyt on it looking for something
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 8: Now, if you don't mind, what he says is that
Speaker 8: this is part of his pattern as we see. What
Speaker 8: we will see is that he tells her, you know,
Speaker 8: shut up. All I want is your money. I won't
Speaker 8: hurt you. I have a knife, and then he lays
Speaker 8: the knife blade against her body just slightly, I guess.
Speaker 8: And then part of the mL too is he he
Speaker 8: has shoelaces and he ties him, ties her very very tight.
Speaker 8: And the knot used is very interesting too. And you
Speaker 8: can tell us about this investigation if you could about
Speaker 8: the kind of knot was very unusual. It's called the
Speaker 8: diamond knot used in nautical or or with horses.
Speaker 3: So in decoration. Yeah, yeah, it is. He didn't use
Speaker 3: that every time. Sometimes he used for three kids and knots.
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell one from the edit. The p id
Speaker 3: tech that they call him CSI. Now they looked him
Speaker 3: up in books and figured out what they were, but
Speaker 3: he brought the shoes things with him. He tied him
Speaker 3: really really tight, I mean tight. Her hands were turning
Speaker 3: black and then shoelace has been off her hands. There
Speaker 3: risks for I don't know half pop time. I got
Speaker 3: there and they were still discolored and their wrists were
Speaker 3: all red, red lines. But she said that he said
Speaker 3: shut up out. He did it fifty times. He'd asked
Speaker 3: her question to tell her to shut up getting roking.
Speaker 3: She first when he first came in, he told her,
Speaker 3: you know, don't worry, I just munch your money and
Speaker 3: all that. And once he knows he can't get up
Speaker 3: and beat him up, she's all tied, and he goes
Speaker 3: ahead and starts his threat impair rises to her as
Speaker 3: much as he can, and he establishes a pattern right
Speaker 3: there that occurs literally every crime. He heads in the
Speaker 3: kitchen and gets something to eat. I don't know you
Speaker 3: know anything about psychology, but he's sure got to hang
Speaker 3: up because he has to eat every time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Now he gags her and blindfolds her as well. And
Speaker 8: then if you can tell us what he says. And again,
Speaker 8: part of his mo that continues is regarding his penis. Oh,
Speaker 8: he like what he says.
Speaker 3: He puts it changes the wording each time in exactly
Speaker 3: wording right now. I can't man for sure, but he
Speaker 3: puts the low sit on himself. And then he tells you,
Speaker 3: you know, play with it. Let me do this, or
Speaker 3: I'm gonna kill you, or put that kind of stuff
Speaker 3: and go ahead and play with us. Sometimes he makes
Speaker 3: he makes her call his penis various names if he
Speaker 3: can't try to make it what I guess he considers dirty.
Speaker 3: He does it every dctrum.
Speaker 8: And he also says to her as well that he
Speaker 8: had seen her at the officers club at the mccollin
Speaker 8: Air Force Base, which where her husband or captain husband
Speaker 8: was stationed. And okay, yes, and so, but there was
Speaker 8: an accidental cut then he made with this knife. And
Speaker 8: again part of this is typical with him. But you
Speaker 8: didn't think it was initial your initial thought about that
Speaker 8: accidental cut.
Speaker 3: She told me he did it accidentally. I looked at that,
Speaker 3: and somehow we figured out he had a serrated knife
Speaker 3: blade and it was kind of like a you know,
Speaker 3: maybe an hitch wie or something like somebody here was
Speaker 3: sandpaper and nobody did an accidental cut, he scraped, And
Speaker 3: I told her then and I said, I don't think
Speaker 3: there was an accident. I think he really wanted her
Speaker 3: units controlling it. And I still think that, and that's
Speaker 3: just a gut reaction. I don't have any real facts
Speaker 3: of going on it. And she disputed the time. In fact,
Speaker 3: I had lunch with her here a few months ago,
Speaker 3: and she still thinks it was an accident, but I don't,
Speaker 3: and he does.
Speaker 8: And what did you what did you think you were
Speaker 8: you were dealing with when when you saw that?
Speaker 3: Well, I have a total of two courses to college
Speaker 3: courses in psychology. I don't really know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: Later on we start to make because professional psychologists work
Speaker 3: consulted on this, and they came up with all these
Speaker 3: good terms about homosexual something or other. I don't know
Speaker 3: the reports. And I kind of think he had a
Speaker 3: real hatred or deep deep anger, which I guess is
Speaker 3: hatred towards women and women mostly made them too, but
Speaker 3: mostly mostly women. And I also figured this guy was
Speaker 3: a whip and they could probably whip his butt, they
Speaker 3: could get a free, fair shot at him. And later
Speaker 3: on that turns out what some of the girls said,
Speaker 3: give me a fair chance I can take him.
Speaker 8: Now, what was the sorry, what was the description of
Speaker 8: the perpetrator? Height and relative weight and age?
Speaker 3: Okay, she put him at five foot nine, and I
Speaker 3: think she said he is around thirty year a little older.
Speaker 3: What I noticed in the vast majority of the victims
Speaker 3: I find is interesting. I always put his age. Typically
Speaker 3: they would put his age a little older than themselves.
Speaker 3: They didn't know. They didn't begin to say he's thirty
Speaker 3: five or forty. Some would say, oh, he was eighteen,
Speaker 3: twenty years old. That kind of thing. He just did.
Speaker 3: Always put a little and then the height. I would
Speaker 3: say he was probably five foot nine. The high estimates
Speaker 3: varied from about five foot six or seven to six
Speaker 3: foot or more, but some of the victims had reference points.
Speaker 3: In this particular case, Dan saw her husband standing in
Speaker 3: the hallway. Wherefore she first saw this guy, and he's
Speaker 3: five foot ten. She looked at that and she think
Speaker 3: it five to nine. And I talked to a couple
Speaker 3: leathers said he's no more than five to nine. Who
Speaker 3: won a certainly a five seven. I talked to the
Speaker 3: guy who saw him walking out by the backyard one night,
Speaker 3: and he kept saying This guy's no taller than not
Speaker 3: as tall as that fence. I don't like saying that.
Speaker 3: So he's about five foot nine, one hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: sixty five pounds. And apparently he could clear a fis,
Speaker 3: you know, like leap and call buildings. He could just
Speaker 3: go right over there.
Speaker 4: Did you think this was a crime of opportunity?
Speaker 3: No, not for a second, I don't think.
Speaker 4: And why is that? Well, he knew, he.
Speaker 3: Knew the area so well, and he'd been in those
Speaker 3: houses before. He was right there at her backyard. Are
Speaker 3: probably in the house waiting till her husband left. He
Speaker 3: left six or whatever it was, And as soon as
Speaker 3: he was gone, that car, son of that car was gone.
Speaker 3: That guy was out of the bedroom and into Jan's
Speaker 3: bedroom and you know, scaring her and her little boy
Speaker 3: half to death.
Speaker 8: Were there other phone calls made to neighbors? I know
Speaker 8: there was a phone call made to her. But where
Speaker 8: there phone calls made to neighbors crank.
Speaker 4: Calls at all?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 3: There was.
Speaker 4: That's interesting.
Speaker 8: Now you say early on over the next or the
Speaker 8: first five months of the investigation, you think that in
Speaker 8: terms of the planning of this rapist, that it's not
Speaker 8: that extensive. But then you say that suddenly that he
Speaker 8: seems to be putting a lot more pre planning into that.
Speaker 8: Tell us a little bit of why you thought that
Speaker 8: and what made you think that.
Speaker 3: Well, as it all comes together, you know what starts out.
Speaker 3: I knew he could see that he planned this one.
Speaker 3: There's no question in my mind about that. And then
Speaker 3: we started talking to the first ed to go back,
Speaker 3: and I had to find the other reports. Nobody talked
Speaker 3: about it. There's no system going on that office. You
Speaker 3: could spread the word, and I figured out there there
Speaker 3: been more, and I was pretty sure it was him,
Speaker 3: and some of the stuff I could research, so I couldn't.
Speaker 3: As we started getting it done, I started noticing certain patterns,
Speaker 3: and in fact, we need to notice more patterns, just recently,
Speaker 3: just in the last few weeks. But this guy would
Speaker 3: pick a neighborhood, naturally, have your escape routs, your thoroughfare
Speaker 3: somewhere nearby. He preferred a green belt area around Ratcha
Speaker 3: Madually that part of Sacramento, you have a lot of
Speaker 3: old drain ditches that are now allowing to seem men.
Speaker 3: He can just walk down those things. He liked the
Speaker 3: school nearby and shrubby and so forth, and the the
Speaker 3: thing between him and by say a ransackers. They stayed
Speaker 3: close to the shrubs and if they walked across the
Speaker 3: front yard, just stay up against the shrubs. He wouldn't
Speaker 3: stay out in the middle like that. Well ordinary, and
Speaker 3: sometimes he was seen just walking down the street. We
Speaker 3: think it was him, We don't know, but he's doing this.
Speaker 3: And then eventually figured out how he found his wherever
Speaker 3: he how he selected his victims. He would figure out
Speaker 3: whether they're living, and he would go there and he
Speaker 3: would prowl that area, and while he was at it,
Speaker 3: he picked up alternate victims so he could assault somebody tonight,
Speaker 3: come back in the month, two months and he'd sawt
Speaker 3: somebody else, and he wouldn't come back to that area.
Speaker 3: The only time he stayed within even a reasonable area
Speaker 3: in one area was in rancher Podopa, and I didn't
Speaker 3: know at the time, but he had already had two
Speaker 3: assaults over there, and they were probably off the top
Speaker 3: of my head, I'd say seventy eight blocks apart, maybe
Speaker 3: a little more. But all these places had they had
Speaker 3: illegal issues in your house, some didn't have. Some found
Speaker 3: screens off. Sometimes you find a door open, and they
Speaker 3: would very off and find something in the house had
Speaker 3: been moved. Somebody was here, but they couldn't be certain,
Speaker 3: but they'd find something was moved, or did find some
Speaker 3: jewelry that wasn't there, there was gone. They find a
Speaker 3: gun that was unloaded. So he's moved around. Later on,
Speaker 3: much later, he started coming in early and leaving stuff
Speaker 3: like her.
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Speaker 2: terms of conditions eighteen plus Christian.
Speaker 3: He wasn't doing that that we know of, but I
Speaker 3: was working the case. I didn't start until he was
Speaker 3: over in Contra Costa County and the calls.
Speaker 8: Of course, Now before we get too far into this,
Speaker 8: we've got to explain this context anyway that policing at
Speaker 8: this time, investigations and things like Cereal rape and serial homicide.
Speaker 8: So tell us what the state of the Sacramento Sheriff's
Speaker 8: Department was in terms of you said it was in
Speaker 8: the midst of an evolution, in terms of strategy, in
Speaker 8: terms of organization, So tell us about what state it
Speaker 8: was in in practical terms.
Speaker 3: When I got there, I was in my twenties and
Speaker 3: I was fresh out of college, and there's a lot
Speaker 3: of these old guys. They used to hire them for
Speaker 3: their strength and brute strength, I guess, because they figured
Speaker 3: they were always getting in fights. And they had what
Speaker 3: they call the Delta area. This goes down far as Stockton,
Speaker 3: I guess, and the deputies weren't allowed to go there.
Speaker 3: Either the shaff or the undershare could take a deputy
Speaker 3: with him. You stayed out of there. From the thirties forties,
Speaker 3: probably in the early fifties, it was as corrupt as
Speaker 3: you could get. Somebody went down there. But then they
Speaker 3: started changing in the late fifties for a lot of this,
Speaker 3: I'm being told by the guys that were there at
Speaker 3: the time. And then a sheriff called John Missed, the
Speaker 3: Big John. Everybody afraid to him. He took over and
Speaker 3: he started changing things around a little bit. But we
Speaker 3: were still the same way. If somebody the case came in,
Speaker 3: you know, they finding their sk left, they knew somebody
Speaker 3: knew how to hand let it. Just find the near
Speaker 3: sky and say you got the short straw. They could
Speaker 3: and go. And there was no real official training or
Speaker 3: anything else. In fact, the detective or patrol commander could
Speaker 3: go to the bar and sit there all night, and
Speaker 3: they was needed to come get him. Wayne Low came in,
Speaker 3: took over. He immediately started changing the entire structure to
Speaker 3: match up the one in a book by Old W.
Speaker 3: Wilson's old textbook Chief Deputies, that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 3: he was doing really good, but there was still that
Speaker 3: internal non physical, non material system going on. So she
Speaker 3: got a case investigation. WOUN worked and whatever it was.
Speaker 3: You might come back and hey, guess what I did today.
Speaker 3: You talk about it, says gone, Nobody says anything more
Speaker 3: about it. And so when that started. But back of
Speaker 3: this little bit, give you an idea. When I first
Speaker 3: got that office first time in Detective seventy two, I
Speaker 3: got into the department armory. They had two Thompson sub
Speaker 3: machine guns. But anyway, getting off the track there, Uh
Speaker 3: so I started looking and I just started talking to people,
Speaker 3: that is her about any cases like this. They say yes,
Speaker 3: So it was something like that. So I go talk
Speaker 3: to them. The fucking sergeant Bevans and technic cousin, and
Speaker 3: both had a case, Pusan's case. The guy knew beforehand
Speaker 3: wherevers going. Who's going to assault Bevans? He probably didn't.
Speaker 3: It was probably a primate opportunity, as we figured out
Speaker 3: starting in and later that whole area right in there
Speaker 3: hid been just saturated with Prouder pulls, and they're most
Speaker 3: always described as a teenager, teenager or very very early twenties.
Speaker 3: Hevery time.
Speaker 8: Now we have the two sisters who run into this guy,
Speaker 8: and one cooperates somewhat or is subdued quite easily, and
Speaker 8: the other teenager doesn't cooperate and does exactly what this
Speaker 8: guy doesn't want her to do in fights. And so
Speaker 8: we see the first not the first, but very established
Speaker 8: his mo of speaking through clenched teeth. Yeah, so tell
Speaker 8: us a little bit about what he does with these
Speaker 8: two girls that obviously affects what he does next, but
Speaker 8: tell us some of the things that are established there
Speaker 8: in terms of m O.
Speaker 3: No, Okay, he goes in there, and he sneaks in,
Speaker 3: and he wakes the one up, and she can't turn over.
Speaker 3: He always whispers through clenched teeth, you don't look at me,
Speaker 3: turn around, I'm going to cut you open, to kill you,
Speaker 3: or something like that, and then he ties her up
Speaker 3: super tight and gags he and he goes into the house,
Speaker 3: parts of the house, hill a ransack a little bit,
Speaker 3: and then come back, it'll be a two minutes. He
Speaker 3: comes in to check on his victims. In this case,
Speaker 3: I think he checked on her once or twice. Then
Speaker 3: he went next door and he woke up her sister,
Speaker 3: and her sister is gonna whip him. She came out
Speaker 3: of the bed and hit him first thing, and then
Speaker 3: he chased her down the hallway, and probably she faced
Speaker 3: him down. She could have beat him, but they went
Speaker 3: down the hall when he stopping on her and he
Speaker 3: finally got her all tied up. He sets the assaulted
Speaker 3: to one sister but not the other one. But all
Speaker 3: during his time he's saying, you know, like the first sister,
Speaker 3: that what he didn't assault, didn't I meet you with
Speaker 3: the prom or something about the prom and her prom
Speaker 3: picking right there on on her counter. And he goes
Speaker 3: in that and ransacks the house. And most of these
Speaker 3: crimes you can hear him putting something in the paper
Speaker 3: bag or taking it out. We never figured out what
Speaker 3: he was putting in that paper bag, laid that bag
Speaker 3: changes to something else. It's a cloth bag and the
Speaker 3: canvas bag, and it just keeps changing all the time.
Speaker 3: But when they got when they came in to investigate
Speaker 3: the girls got loose the telephone wires coming to the house.
Speaker 3: He'd put a flower pot or something down there and
Speaker 3: got up tried to cut him. And what he did
Speaker 3: is he took off the insulation. We all thought at
Speaker 3: first clumpy. I thought later, No, he isn't. He's using
Speaker 3: the outigator clips. He's tapping into that telephone lines so
Speaker 3: he can listen in any conversation going on. Who knows
Speaker 3: when he did. That could have been that night. I
Speaker 3: don't know who was asking about the doctor's drugs. These
Speaker 3: girls had a doctor under their father was a cardiac surgeon,
Speaker 3: So I think that was the forth the salt was. Actually, no,
Speaker 3: it wasn't before the fifth, but I knew him at
Speaker 3: that point. Two of the victims like for him. Two
Speaker 3: of the victims they had some sort of connection with
Speaker 3: the medical Yeah, yeah, they were the They were the
Speaker 3: second one. That's what it was. Yeah.
Speaker 8: Now part of the other thing, part of the m
Speaker 8: O two. Another strange thing. Not only does he go
Speaker 8: into the kitchen to eat and ransacks and searches all
Speaker 8: over their apartments of their homes, then returns, like you say,
Speaker 8: every few minutes to make sure that they're still tied up.
Speaker 4: Very very tight. He also.
Speaker 8: Starts drinking cores beer, bringing a couple at least two
Speaker 8: cores beer with him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, almost every scene, and not all of them, you'll
Speaker 3: find two, sometimes three cans of some beverage that he drink,
Speaker 3: and sometimes he brings it with him. And later on
Speaker 3: there's in assault where the guy seen by himself, he's
Speaker 3: had naked, no bags, and after the assault they find
Speaker 3: I think it was two beer cans outside the house,
Speaker 3: you know, so I don't you know, we never explained
Speaker 3: that one away either, but he does.
Speaker 4: Sorry, go ahead, No, that's right.
Speaker 8: The part of it is, too, is that through all
Speaker 8: of these, as we'll the audience will see, is that
Speaker 8: there is a description of a homemade mask. So tell
Speaker 8: us about this mask what it made look like for
Speaker 8: those just listening.
Speaker 3: Okay, there, every mask is different. The uh, the first
Speaker 3: one I think on the in jan you were talking
Speaker 3: about sometimes remember what that thing was. It was a
Speaker 3: big cloth. When I think he had so many of them.
Speaker 3: On one of them he used a like a Wilder's mask.
Speaker 3: Then you have a nylon stocking. Then you had ski mask,
Speaker 3: of course, all kinds of those. Then he had like
Speaker 3: some home made mask made out of cloth, rough cut
Speaker 3: cloth whole. Well, we just cut the holes for the
Speaker 3: eyes and the mouth, usually just the eyes. And what
Speaker 3: they were Now, I got a thing right here. It
Speaker 3: might have it on it.
Speaker 8: Well to say that they were not conventional masks. Again,
Speaker 8: you say one was a welder mass. So there was
Speaker 8: some sort of There was a variance in all of
Speaker 8: the masks, it seemed, in terms of color and description.
Speaker 8: But it wasn't one particular type mask used all the time.
Speaker 3: No, every one of the was different. It's like he
Speaker 3: saved the soupernir someplace. Now Betty still has all of them. No,
Speaker 3: they were never the same summer sche masks, and they
Speaker 3: were just normal, but many of them were not.
Speaker 4: Now what was the pardon me?
Speaker 8: Was there any connection that you saw at that time
Speaker 8: about homes for sale or under construction in area?
Speaker 3: There was the first thing I noticed. I don't know
Speaker 3: why I did. The first thing I saw we pulled
Speaker 3: up in friend of Jan's house across the street was
Speaker 3: the ridden like real Estate Science entry twenty one. They
Speaker 3: were all over State of California, State of California. At
Speaker 3: that time, I thought it was a lotless crowded. I
Speaker 3: figured out later that most of the towns and putting
Speaker 3: San Francisco were really just big caltowns. But every place,
Speaker 3: every victim in Sacramento and there's I could figure most,
Speaker 3: if not all, outside of Sacramento, like country, across the
Speaker 3: county and those places. Every one of them the house
Speaker 3: with yourself occurred, was had just been sold, just been rented,
Speaker 3: I was up for sale, or was next door or
Speaker 3: right across the street from one, and one had just built.
Speaker 3: Every one of them was that way when you go
Speaker 3: down to southern California. I think it continues, but I
Speaker 3: don't have enough information to confirm that. And the people
Speaker 3: that investigated the ones up here when he went he
Speaker 3: moved out, they didn't know enough about his mot even
Speaker 3: asked those questions that I started looking. And the real
Speaker 3: estate and the telephone were two things that turned up
Speaker 3: again and again and again, and at first devices don't
Speaker 3: forget it, they're all overwhell they were. Pretty soon they
Speaker 3: figured out there really was a connection there. Jan's house
Speaker 3: that was across the street was one for sale, the
Speaker 3: one on Marlborough, the two sisters, I'm not sure because
Speaker 3: I didn't go up there and look, and the one
Speaker 3: where the blutw was assalted at her garage. I don't
Speaker 3: know that one either, but I'm willing to back because
Speaker 3: everybody up your head places for sale at the time.
Speaker 4: I know the victim.
Speaker 8: I think Christy was the one where there was a
Speaker 8: for sale sign across the street.
Speaker 3: What street did they have that these.
Speaker 4: Well, I can't give you that.
Speaker 3: I can't give you that much anyway, Yeah, they all did, Christy.
Speaker 3: I think what you're talking about is when I went
Speaker 3: over here and I saw the house and show I
Speaker 3: walked inside and there's a laundry room and you could
Speaker 3: sit right there in the dust and see the guy's
Speaker 3: prints and a cigarette butts straight across the street. You
Speaker 3: can watch the house where she was living at the time.
Speaker 4: Now at this time too.
Speaker 8: I mean, you really don't talk about the pressure to
Speaker 8: make any kinds of arrest.
Speaker 4: This is the first time.
Speaker 8: I guess maybe that's more fictional than than you know
Speaker 8: the rule, But you do talk about copycats and that potential,
Speaker 8: and that must be a frightening possibility that somebody's copying
Speaker 8: the killer that you can't or the serial rapist that
Speaker 8: you can't catch.
Speaker 4: As it seems that the things are.
Speaker 8: Escalating so tell us about how one suspect surface is
Speaker 8: named Dorcas and why Dorcas.
Speaker 3: The gal's a bit asleep. She wakes up and there's
Speaker 3: a guy standing half naked by the door. He asked
Speaker 3: his intention is and goes ahead and assulter and say emo,
Speaker 3: and after heylee. If she can't get ties, she has
Speaker 3: to lay there for two hours before a friend finds
Speaker 3: here's me. And then while gating authors there, the neighbor
Speaker 3: walks into the house. It says he thinks he's been
Speaker 3: burgerized some jewelry in his house that's not his. Well,
Speaker 3: the officer the second report had no clue what to
Speaker 3: ask about these kind of questions because she was like
Speaker 3: the first or second one, I think first one, and
Speaker 3: so he didn't know what to ask. So Dorcas he's
Speaker 3: wandering around and trying to those around and look at
Speaker 3: the entire crime scene. Finally the officer had to kick
Speaker 3: him out of the house. And it turns out Dorcast
Speaker 3: is right straight across the behind her backyard. You can
Speaker 3: look out his window and there's no fancy look out
Speaker 3: a window, look straight into her bedroom window. Because she
Speaker 3: never kept the coverage. She just had a big plant
Speaker 3: and thought that would do that'd be just good enough.
Speaker 3: So I mean here he introduced himself, made up the
Speaker 3: story that the cop couldn't believe, and he's sitting right here,
Speaker 3: and he sit the physical of course, sitting right there.
Speaker 3: What nobody fought to look for at that time was
Speaker 3: the shoes. I think she said he had a square
Speaker 3: two of black patent leather shoes. I don't know who
Speaker 3: wears those less the pre a tuck or something. And
Speaker 3: nobody bothered to look at that guy's feet to see
Speaker 3: what kind of shoes he's wearing. Of course he probably
Speaker 3: would have changed, but that's how he became a suspect.
Speaker 3: And later on we had a dog track in the
Speaker 3: suspect from a crime scene, and this Dorcas guy, who
Speaker 3: was standing right here on dog roll right attention to
Speaker 3: it and finally put him fly worked up an alibi
Speaker 3: for this guy Dorcas so and I think years later
Speaker 3: they combected and got his DNA. So this there's no question.
Speaker 4: M h.
Speaker 8: Now you talk.
Speaker 4: But pardon me, you're going to say about DNA, and it's.
Speaker 7: Now what was the state of DNA?
Speaker 4: We might as well talk about that obviously for those people.
Speaker 4: What was the state of DNA at that time.
Speaker 3: Didn't exist as far as we knew. Yeah, in fact,
Speaker 3: they didn't even come out until Ank It was in
Speaker 3: the very early nineties, I think it was, or maybe
Speaker 3: just before that. He was in the eighties it came out. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was really difficult and really expensive what we were
Speaker 3: using because they had nothing, they had no evidence. What
Speaker 3: we would do is give somebody that's chewing a piece
Speaker 3: of gauze and they would test to see if they
Speaker 3: were a secretor and nonsecretor certain people yea, their body
Speaker 3: for us do not screete the blood type. So we
Speaker 3: had some five thousand suspects when we stopped working here
Speaker 3: southern California, and seven thousand and most of them were
Speaker 3: eliminated on the secrete non screen for status. Well, since
Speaker 3: then it's been found out that you can be both.
Speaker 3: The guy was in court for rape and the seamen
Speaker 3: taking into scene was a secretor I think could have
Speaker 3: been any way around. And they had this guy they
Speaker 3: tested survive and he was the opposite through the tense.
Speaker 3: Just drop into the said, let's try for both. So
Speaker 3: they did. They got doctors examples of both. It turns
Speaker 3: out he is both a secretor and non screwen. So
Speaker 3: those five thousand suspects, they're right back on the list. Wow,
Speaker 3: can't count. You don't know who they are. And now
Speaker 3: because somebody destroyed all the records, Jeerz.
Speaker 8: Now talking about connecting dots. And as this progresses, we
Speaker 8: have a ten year old named Ted and his mother Jenny,
Speaker 8: and it's two thirty in the morning and there's a
Speaker 8: mass man trying to pry it the door and her
Speaker 8: son sees this, runs to get her mother. His mother,
Speaker 8: pardon me, and she decides to call the operator. I
Speaker 8: guess weirdly enough, there's no answer, and then she tries
Speaker 8: to call her neighbor. So tell us what happens in
Speaker 8: this particular case.
Speaker 3: After those two failures, he tried calling her shares department.
Speaker 3: In about then this guy's red around the corner confronting her.
Speaker 3: You know the mask, if you have a kind of mask,
Speaker 3: he head a ski mask unless sure now anyway, he
Speaker 3: was greeting his teeth. You know, all I want is
Speaker 3: your money. You don't beat her at cooperate and shut
Speaker 3: that dog up. I'll go on here and stab that
Speaker 3: little boy in the back bedroom. A little boys, a
Speaker 3: little girl so we know he'd never been in that
Speaker 3: house before. And then he tied the ten year old up.
Speaker 3: What he did, he stood right there next to the lamp.
Speaker 3: He was teared on, and a kid's pretty calm. Who's
Speaker 3: telling me? He says. The guy had black haired, blue
Speaker 3: eyes and hit her black hair in his arms and
Speaker 3: the lakes. He was standing there, and he had a
Speaker 3: shirt and shorts, nothing else on. And he went in
Speaker 3: to kid his mother and living room, and he spends
Speaker 3: quite a bit of time assaulting her and there, and
Speaker 3: she's pregnant by the way. But when when the we
Speaker 3: called for, the guy with the tracking dog came out
Speaker 3: and with the dog going backwards, what he did, he
Speaker 3: was from this lady's house. They had to go with
Speaker 3: the fence, had to go back out to the car
Speaker 3: in front of the neighbor's house. Then he went to
Speaker 3: the neighbor's back door from backyard window and over and
Speaker 3: back out to a big field out there. And now
Speaker 3: the field was more than a field. It was supposed
Speaker 3: to be a freeway. And then Governor Jerry Brown ka Moonbeam,
Speaker 3: he closed down the freeway and he sold it the
Speaker 3: real estate developers. All the new houses were going in there.
Speaker 3: This guy driven in, parked his car back there and
Speaker 3: sounded like an American made car, and according to the
Speaker 3: TRACKSI found, it probably was. And he parked it, came over,
Speaker 3: went over the fence first to that neighbor's back window,
Speaker 3: were up to the car in the front, and walked
Speaker 3: around and right over to this lady's house. The people
Speaker 3: next door was a doctor and his wife, and they
Speaker 3: were out of town unexpected. I personally say that's where
Speaker 3: he was headed. But he's, like I think I said
Speaker 3: in the book, he's stressed these occasion, so he just
Speaker 3: went shopping next door. Sure there, went in and he
Speaker 3: assaulted her. When he salted her. Somewhere along the line,
Speaker 3: he took his knight and he outlined the y incision
Speaker 3: used by an autopsies on her body. You know what
Speaker 3: that means? That just so of these little hands here
Speaker 3: and there, you can go off in the direction you
Speaker 3: want what he knew and what he didn't know.
Speaker 4: What's interesting, too, is you find a bent.
Speaker 3: Spoon exactly under the victim found it under the sofa
Speaker 3: the next day, which he's cleaning. It was a dinnerwar
Speaker 3: spoon piece doing I guess I think I forgot it
Speaker 3: was bent right in half, wasn't a mark on it.
Speaker 3: She gave it to Carroll Dailey, who gave it to me,
Speaker 3: And then I'm trying to figure how to follow this
Speaker 3: thing down. But then I put a bowl be on
Speaker 3: the lookout for the description we had. It was like
Speaker 3: the next day, maybe two days later, the second PD officer,
Speaker 3: he was on some kind of call and spotted this
Speaker 3: guy I think I called him mart Pington in there.
Speaker 3: He rested for something and he had a leather palace.
Speaker 3: He got into it and there was a rock, a
Speaker 3: psychiatry workers thing, ice picked some other stuff and a
Speaker 3: bent and spoon, and I personally still think he did
Speaker 3: that assault, which was absolutely no way to prove it,
Speaker 3: no way at all, but we tracked him down. It
Speaker 3: turns out he was a mentally disordered, disappointed sex offender
Speaker 3: getting a thousand and forty dollars a month at tax free,
Speaker 3: which at the time was pretty good. He was making
Speaker 3: more than we were as a matter of fact, and
Speaker 3: didn't have to work, and he'd been arrested for a
Speaker 3: series of rapes in Sacramento in the sixty eight I
Speaker 3: think it was, and his sister one of them. Called
Speaker 3: me up to say, I know he's the guy. He
Speaker 3: came over and looking at his toolbox. He look us
Speaker 3: toolbox nothing and up her rusty tools and they're really
Speaker 3: rusty too. And she told me the story that he
Speaker 3: and one of the guy and I didn't name the
Speaker 3: other guy out of who it was. They decided it
Speaker 3: was in the sixties, ever going to murder a woman
Speaker 3: just for fun, and he had a loaded rifle. He's
Speaker 3: waiting around a building or something for her to come by,
Speaker 3: and she just, for whatever reason, she didn't do it,
Speaker 3: so he didn't go back and try a Yet this guy, well,
Speaker 3: he actually killed his brother with an arrow through the
Speaker 3: neck and he's in a taskadarrow.
Speaker 4: I guess you should now this art Pinkton.
Speaker 8: You think you have a pretty good suspect at that time,
Speaker 8: but given that you sorry.
Speaker 3: I was positive it was a you know, with no
Speaker 3: real evidence.
Speaker 8: Now, so what you're saying is that you're looking for
Speaker 8: this East Area rapist. I don't know if he's been
Speaker 8: named as such as yet. But then you have this
Speaker 8: really good victim, You have the bent spoon, you have
Speaker 8: this seems like some kind of murder toolkit here. Now
Speaker 8: despite you looking at a toolbox that his sister directed
Speaker 8: you to his and his own family saying that, Yeah,
Speaker 8: I think he's capable of his sister's saying he's capable
Speaker 8: of something like this.
Speaker 4: What was it about.
Speaker 8: Was there any deviant, any change from them from these
Speaker 8: previous sexual assaults.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was no real comparison to the two of them,
Speaker 3: not at all, But he was Nothing would deter him
Speaker 3: and all these other ones. If somebody's sum or something,
Speaker 3: he just keep going. Dear did the two. It's just
Speaker 3: like his abilities. He's totally focused. That's where he's going
Speaker 3: to go. Maybe it was a psychological kink there. I
Speaker 3: don't know, but that was the only real that in
Speaker 3: the tearing up towels to gag and blindfold, because when
Speaker 3: I started investigating him, I physically put him within two
Speaker 3: blocks of two rapes in San Diego at the night
Speaker 3: they occurred, and they were older women fifty and sixty
Speaker 3: maybe older. And he ripped up towels and he blindfolded
Speaker 3: and tied and gagged all that kind of stuff that
Speaker 3: was all the same. There's only so many ways you
Speaker 3: can do these crimes, but that stuck. I know he did.
Speaker 3: Though San Diego could never be connect him to him,
Speaker 3: but he was down aft. I put him their relatives.
Speaker 3: I guess.
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Speaker 3: I know he did it.
Speaker 8: Now, this woman had already planned with I guess, for
Speaker 8: her husband and her family to move to Danville. And
Speaker 8: you say that Danville tell us how far away Danville
Speaker 8: is from here. But also at the same time you
Speaker 8: also throw in that in nineteen ninety one or ninety two,
Speaker 8: Jenny received a call and she thought he recognized the
Speaker 8: voice as the same person saying you know who this is.
Speaker 8: And you also put in there that the crime seemed
Speaker 8: to move or the perpetrator seems to move to Danville
Speaker 8: shortly after as well he does.
Speaker 3: She was in the process of moving already. Her husband
Speaker 3: worked for other company, and he was out of town
Speaker 3: and came over to get her. But a few days
Speaker 3: they were gone. And then see, this was in November
Speaker 3: of seventy six, and I think it wasn't until really
Speaker 3: early in seventy seven he started striking in Danville and
Speaker 3: the other areas back over there outside of Sacramento. He
Speaker 3: was bouncing around all the place. Didn't night I think
Speaker 3: to be I said ninety two, but it's probably ninety one.
Speaker 3: She got the phone call office next meeting. I just
Speaker 3: got this call, so I called her back. He says, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was him. She was here with him.
Speaker 8: Now, tell us about further investigation of Art Painton, because
Speaker 8: it's very interesting.
Speaker 4: Somebody must have thought this was a very viable suspect.
Speaker 4: So tell us about the.
Speaker 8: Full extent of how much you thought he might be
Speaker 8: a viable suspect and how you investigated him.
Speaker 3: Everybody thought he was the bad guy, and you know,
Speaker 3: we we checked everywhere. We tried to check his medical
Speaker 3: records and we couldn't get very military records through OSI
Speaker 3: Office Special Investigations for the Air Force, and they didn't
Speaker 3: never did tell us much. And we finally put two
Speaker 3: officers on his mother's house where he was staying. And
Speaker 3: I think after two or three assaults, when we knew
Speaker 3: where he was, then if I just dropped, considered not him.
Speaker 3: And eventually back when he killed his brother, they got
Speaker 3: his DNA and they tried to confirm it. Yeah, he
Speaker 3: was not the Sterey rate, but they were following him
Speaker 3: every way in the world, doing anything they could dig
Speaker 3: up information on him. He was just perfect for In fact,
Speaker 3: they laughed at me. Kept says not the guy. I said, no,
Speaker 3: it's got to be here, but it wasn't.
Speaker 8: Right now in November nineteen seventy six is the official
Speaker 8: creation of a task force with the Lieutenant Root and
Speaker 8: Sergeant Bevins Captain stam So tell us about this creation
Speaker 8: of the task force and how involved are you and
Speaker 8: how committed are is everyone on this group to the
Speaker 8: same ideology that it's sore theory on about the perpetrator.
Speaker 3: Well after the one where the ten year old kids
Speaker 3: saw the suspect, I remember saying in that patio talking
Speaker 3: to my two partners that they Sergeant Irwin and Caeryld Dailey,
Speaker 3: and I say we have this series. They disagreed. I
Speaker 3: listed off the points they agreed. I came in. I
Speaker 3: told Lieutenant Route I'd worked for him in seventy two,
Speaker 3: and I said, you got into the rapist out here,
Speaker 3: so I told him. He didn't even argue. He turned
Speaker 3: right around, went back, notified all the top level people
Speaker 3: down there, and then he came in a few days
Speaker 3: later and told me they're putting the other task force
Speaker 3: starts at Bevans. I wasn't very friendly in the fourth floor,
Speaker 3: by the way, that's all in Honcho State. Bevans was
Speaker 3: going to be their lead investigator. He was going to
Speaker 3: be the task force commander, and he wanted me to
Speaker 3: work with him. Then in seventy two. From nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 3: he had a policy that he picked up somewhere else.
Speaker 3: He figured a good detective doesn't need a signed case
Speaker 3: to go out and you know, prevent crime. I was
Speaker 3: supposed to go out into the scene of the crime,
Speaker 3: figure what I could, like like Devan everybody else did,
Speaker 3: and then working backards trying to figure out how did
Speaker 3: they pick this guy here and what's going on around here?
Speaker 3: And I started doing neighborhood campuses on my own and
Speaker 3: finding out about the victims that I came up with
Speaker 3: a whole lot of stuff. He did not come up
Speaker 3: with going the other direction, and in fact, the eventually
Speaker 3: I was been One night I told the group, I said,
Speaker 3: he's going to hit tonight up here in one of
Speaker 3: these three streets, and I need these five expert units.
Speaker 3: He had five officers and Rancher Putdoba where the guy
Speaker 3: already hit four times, and their whole job was to
Speaker 3: wander around on foot at night, and no crime occurred
Speaker 3: while they were there. And I said, put him up there,
Speaker 3: and he argued with me. I finally gave me one
Speaker 3: what are you gonna do with the one guy? So
Speaker 3: I sent him over to a place called thorn Wood
Speaker 3: Street where we were anticipating, and they had the strike
Speaker 3: there and we set him up over there. That night
Speaker 3: he hit on Merlin Dale, one of the three streets.
Speaker 3: In fact, when I gave a briefing to the patrol
Speaker 3: officers officers CHERI said to put my finger almost the
Speaker 3: exact spot he hit. Had I known what was going
Speaker 3: on in that neighborhood up to that point, I could
Speaker 3: have told you what house he was going to hit.
Speaker 3: But getting information out of patrol because half of them
Speaker 3: wouldn't make a report, but they talked about it among themselves.
Speaker 3: They's just just like trying to interview. Oh, I don't know,
Speaker 3: trying to hold a handful of water. I can't do it.
Speaker 3: And then it was after that, I think it was
Speaker 3: in May seventy seven. I was going through the reports,
Speaker 3: I handled some of them, and I came across one
Speaker 3: I talked about illegal entry. Something had been moved, that's all.
Speaker 3: So I took Curtis a patrol off shoe. We just
Speaker 3: got assigned to the task force. He went with me.
Speaker 3: We went to the house and there's a one of
Speaker 3: size nine nine and a half foot print testue right
Speaker 3: on the wall, four or five feet off the ground,
Speaker 3: had a small window bite within very big at all
Speaker 3: he could see. He just kind of jumped up, put
Speaker 3: his foot and crawled in. But nobody was home. So
Speaker 3: we looked across the street. Now, this street was I
Speaker 3: think it was Templeton parallel's Madison Main thorough them where
Speaker 3: there was like one line of houses totlee in the
Speaker 3: two streets, and then you have every roads running north
Speaker 3: south off of that Templeton well, one of them was Cedarhurst,
Speaker 3: and so we decided, okay, we'll check this out, and
Speaker 3: so we go across the corner. He go to Agnal'll
Speaker 3: take the second house in the corner, which is what
Speaker 3: he was picking at the time, And there we find
Speaker 3: a woman and her young daughter, and the dare had
Speaker 3: her target and she was going to be assaulted any
Speaker 3: time she came home many times. And the door is unlocked,
Speaker 3: it's a jar. Something in the house is I think
Speaker 3: a big flower pot was taken off the table and
Speaker 3: put them on the floor, and I can't remember what else,
Speaker 3: but and hang up. Phone calls has been coming and
Speaker 3: they stopped about a week or two weeks before we
Speaker 3: showed up. Her key was outside on the floor mat.
Speaker 3: So we explained everything to her what we thought was
Speaker 3: going on. In fact, I know what was going on.
Speaker 3: Then we went across the street again, a house diagonal
Speaker 3: going back, and there's a tree setting there. It's about
Speaker 3: fifteen twenty feet high, real heavy foil underneath that tree
Speaker 3: or cash, your footprints and cigarette. But nobody was home
Speaker 3: at that house, by the way, so we'd go to
Speaker 3: the next door neighbor. And that's the guy that says, yeah,
Speaker 3: he was not as tall as a fence. He looked
Speaker 3: the window a week or two earlier, ten o'clock at night,
Speaker 3: and he saw a guy five foot nine as blonde
Speaker 3: hair walked out of that backyard and he was backyard
Speaker 3: and entered the street, and he didn't know way he
Speaker 3: went from there. There's no question he was going to
Speaker 3: assault her. At the other end of that street, a
Speaker 3: man got a new job and he had his new
Speaker 3: work schedule laying there on the nightstand, and he had
Speaker 3: a gun. He came home and that schedule was gone.
Speaker 3: And the gun was unloaded well to lieutenants and the
Speaker 3: detective vision girl excited. They were talking about that all
Speaker 3: over the radio. Everybody knew about it. So I told
Speaker 3: sig Churse, I said, you know, this is a perfect
Speaker 3: set up for a stakeout at this house. But this
Speaker 3: guy's not coming back to the street. And he didn't.
Speaker 3: He never came back, and that pact right after that.
Speaker 3: There's not long after that he turned up and stocked him,
Speaker 3: which is what an hour's drive from Sacramento. As far
Speaker 3: as I'm concerned, he was listening to us on the radio,
Speaker 3: probably had a CD or went with ham right away
Speaker 3: over the youth monitor.
Speaker 4: It was fairly easy to monitor. Police.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they wouldn't show that. To get to tell
Speaker 3: you everything in the world, we had one where there
Speaker 3: the I s sie guy saw a fingerprint on the
Speaker 3: one's wrists pure and I said, it's got to be
Speaker 3: a way to get this guy's prints. So we go
Speaker 3: through the crime lab. We'd tell them now, may be
Speaker 3: any ideas, and they came up with a sister on
Speaker 3: of what it was called for a fingerprinting any part
Speaker 3: of the humandvice been touched by somebody else and so
Speaker 3: we had a briefing. We told the patrol officers, particular women.
Speaker 3: There's about three or four months of time I've was
Speaker 3: telling all of them, don't talk about this over the air.
Speaker 3: I might found out latest exactly what they did. They
Speaker 3: just talked it up the store. It was like two
Speaker 3: days later another assault and his gloves and never came
Speaker 3: off during the entire assault. So he heard them meaning
Speaker 3: what we were doing. He didn't have to be smart.
Speaker 3: Could be some pre dumb, dumb things we did.
Speaker 8: Now there are sightings of vehicles, and it's fascinating to
Speaker 8: see the variety of vehicles that are either deemed suspicious
Speaker 8: or people claim to have seen the various colors, you know,
Speaker 8: makes of vehicles.
Speaker 4: But we'll talk about that briefly.
Speaker 8: But also there must have been some composite created, and
Speaker 8: I love that you have a masked composite drawing and
Speaker 8: also others where without a mask, and.
Speaker 4: I love that you have included those.
Speaker 8: So for anybody that grabs this book, you're gonna be
Speaker 8: able to see something very very interesting where you can
Speaker 8: almost see the one description consistent with the one without
Speaker 8: a mask.
Speaker 4: So I won't go into that for people, they'll just
Speaker 4: find this fascinating.
Speaker 8: I've never seen this as any book before, so it's
Speaker 8: incredible that you haven't included this. So tell us about
Speaker 8: the creation of composites and how again obviously wasn't too successful.
Speaker 8: But tell us about the relative success or non success
Speaker 8: of the composite drawing the.
Speaker 3: Uh, those things are first, they're subjective. In the book,
Speaker 3: there's four of them that look a little different. They
Speaker 3: are in fact the same person. And one of them,
Speaker 3: the eyewitness eye witness to who I think was the
Speaker 3: stay rapists, didn't draw compositive. He looked at one said
Speaker 3: you make these couple of changes. You got what the
Speaker 3: guy looked like, so I know they're the same person.
Speaker 3: But about all they did really was generate people calling
Speaker 3: in and you can get really really close. I got
Speaker 3: one guy now that calls me from out the state UNA,
Speaker 3: where truck driver and he's convinced that this one guy
Speaker 3: looks much like a composite. He's got to be the
Speaker 3: guy we're looking for. And he doesn't want his name
Speaker 3: to be known, but he wants me to drive four
Speaker 3: or five hour drive to go ask this guy for
Speaker 3: his DNA. Just can't get this guy to leave me alone.
Speaker 3: Then call me from fact. They're got a holding call
Speaker 3: on him now. But they they only they brought up well,
Speaker 3: I guess you could see they're a real thumb. There's
Speaker 3: no way you can go buy him. But if he
Speaker 3: gets some guy in the had a compositive kind of
Speaker 3: white flat face. They have one of the I say,
Speaker 3: a ransacker looks nothing like these stair rape composits. So
Speaker 3: do us somebody it looks like that, you send them
Speaker 3: down to I say, because they're not gonna be the
Speaker 3: stir rapist and act up Here one guy that looked
Speaker 3: right at him. I didn't know this till Kleisko. He
Speaker 3: said it looked like a Neanderthal. But what I had
Speaker 3: concluded in this mission came out long. I mean, just
Speaker 3: in the last couple of years. The guy probably had
Speaker 3: a slight touch of rosetia. He had possibly an acne's
Speaker 3: card face, not heavy, just a little. He had a
Speaker 3: kind of a ruddy readish complexion. He was a jogger.
Speaker 3: He was an athlete. Really, he could jump fences. Like
Speaker 3: I said, he was seen jogging wearing a paratroopers boots.
Speaker 3: Who are all kinds of t shirts tennis you he
Speaker 3: were all kinds of clothes. We recovered a car that
Speaker 3: I know it was his. Unfortunately, I remember absolutely nothing
Speaker 3: about this because I but I did the report. Fulston
Speaker 3: Police Department saw a car park for a street night.
Speaker 3: This is in January seventy seven, and so they cited
Speaker 3: it from being abandoned. Well, the next night the car
Speaker 3: has moved down the street as far as it. Austin
Speaker 3: concerned and abandons abandons. I impounded it. The following March,
Speaker 3: the Tilliard started going through inventuring property because they're going
Speaker 3: to sell the car in public auction. They found two
Speaker 3: riot guns that kind of used by cops, a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of shotgun shows like the cops used. I think
Speaker 3: five sets had closed and all identifying marks removed. Had
Speaker 3: a wig and I thought and thought and thought about that.
Speaker 3: I vaguely recall those two riot guns, and I don't
Speaker 3: remember what else anything else about it. And most of
Speaker 3: the stuff, not all, but a lot of it I
Speaker 3: can remember in clear detail, but I cannot remember that.
Speaker 3: But I did track it down that the car was
Speaker 3: sold in December of seventy six. The people that sold it,
Speaker 3: that both sents died your Bill Paddings, and they described
Speaker 3: the guy. He gave a name of Dennis Allen, I
Speaker 3: think it was, and they described him one city, was
Speaker 3: sixteen years old, he had said twenty. They said he
Speaker 3: was polite, had shagg type haircut, light blonde, five foot nine,
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty pounds or so, pretty much. But
Speaker 3: the year was described as and then he just disappeared.
Speaker 3: The thing prior pounding that car in December of seventy six,
Speaker 3: and I got this phone call months later. A young
Speaker 3: girl in a sacament of city limits was going home,
Speaker 3: went down the alley and this guy sent her in
Speaker 3: a car watching her. She got out of the car,
Speaker 3: he got out, she left. She called her mother, and
Speaker 3: mother went outside and the guys going. This happened a
Speaker 3: couple of more times. W's a different car, and then
Speaker 3: happened again. This time she called her father, came outside.
Speaker 3: The guy got a car and he ran real brave. Well,
Speaker 3: it was a sixty one value, all that faded white
Speaker 3: and blue and stuff coming through it. I'm certain it's
Speaker 3: the same pride as impounded in January. And they called
Speaker 3: the city police and they came out, looked at it,
Speaker 3: did nothing, left it. The next day of the car
Speaker 3: is going a couple of days. Yeah, So a couple
Speaker 3: of days later, the guy's back and then he doesn't
Speaker 3: go back anymore. The license plate. I ran it down
Speaker 3: to a junk yard and loud I had been scrapped
Speaker 3: out a couple months earlier, and then I chaced it
Speaker 3: somehow through Stockton and they just lost it where it went.
Speaker 3: So he used at least twice I know of, he
Speaker 3: used a license place off of junk cars. Most of
Speaker 3: the time they came back and not on file, which
Speaker 3: means either copied wrong or the heading be registered for
Speaker 3: four years.
Speaker 8: There was lots of reports of primar vehicles too, and
Speaker 8: different different paint job, different color paint, so I thought
Speaker 8: there might be some connection there as well. It seemed
Speaker 8: to be a lot of a lot of unpainted or
Speaker 8: partially painted or primer vehicles that were reported.
Speaker 3: Like somebody pointed out he was driving junkers. They theorized
Speaker 3: he was from a junkyard or a toe company or something.
Speaker 3: But you know, anything's possible. I don't think it was.
Speaker 3: I think he more than either he did. If you
Speaker 3: start when a kid was first seen sixteen or eighteen,
Speaker 3: you could see he just got in the military because
Speaker 3: he was about one tour of duty and then he
Speaker 3: started moving away from Sacramento and the military stuff never
Speaker 3: show it up again. So that's the possibility. It could
Speaker 3: be the military is real in his head. He really
Speaker 3: didn't do it. He could have been in the real estate.
Speaker 3: And if I was in the real estate, I would
Speaker 3: look at escrow or praisers that those records are destroyed
Speaker 3: after seven years. I I checked here recently. The lending
Speaker 3: company's out of the question because at least one victory
Speaker 3: had a brand new house just built and they paid cash,
Speaker 3: so they didn't get involved in lending. So that's out.
Speaker 3: But you have the case in Modesta where the guy
Speaker 3: he gives off the called tax Ga, picks up the
Speaker 3: ferret at the airport the United Airlines just landed. He
Speaker 3: knew that he is what the guy was ordered not.
Speaker 3: He takes the guy down to near a vacant field.
Speaker 3: The guy so this good. He gets out. He was
Speaker 3: across the field. He's got the SATs and with als
Speaker 3: on top. On the other side of that field, I
Speaker 3: think it was. The next night was a brand new
Speaker 3: house and the assault went down in there and the
Speaker 3: guy had a sash of it open. The top just
Speaker 3: like this guy did. He gave a description thirty years old,
Speaker 3: which doesn't match the others. So you know, it's really
Speaker 3: hard to say. I will tell you this, the descriptions
Speaker 3: we got once he left Sacramento, you have at least
Speaker 3: two different people. I don't know if they know each other.
Speaker 3: You never see more than one set of footprints to
Speaker 3: find two and three cans. But you can't go from
Speaker 3: a real firm, athletic body to a potcut from some
Speaker 3: flat and you can't go from a hard calloused hand
Speaker 3: to a small suft ones. It just can't be done,
Speaker 3: not in a matter of weeks. And we're talking like
Speaker 3: two or three weeks. So there was more than one
Speaker 3: out there, but that's not unusual either. I'd like to know.
Speaker 8: Now you still great, Sorry, you still believe the East
Speaker 8: area rapist moved? And you say you talk about Stockton,
Speaker 8: So tell us, just for those people not familiar with California,
Speaker 8: do there southern California, central California? Tell us where Stockton is,
Speaker 8: and tell us what you believe the catalyst was for him.
Speaker 8: We talked about maybe that his military stint was over
Speaker 8: or that possibility, but was there any catalyst that might
Speaker 8: have made him run other than like you say, a
Speaker 8: close call.
Speaker 3: So it could be just employment construction. They found paint,
Speaker 3: architectural paint. I think it was architectural. He too cross
Speaker 3: the sacrament of ben Spirits and I had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with that. I read and report the painted the
Speaker 3: spirit offense pulled something else. He's quite capable of doing
Speaker 3: that on purpose, leading a little red herrings here and there,
Speaker 3: and that could take him down there. It could be
Speaker 3: that we were right on top of him because cedar
Speaker 3: Hurst and merland Dale we picked out where he was
Speaker 3: going to hit the street. Cedar Hurst, we located to
Speaker 3: these potential victims. He might just figures time to go
Speaker 3: away and get out of here. And we've been talking
Speaker 3: about helicopters for years, but they didn't have any of
Speaker 3: them yet. So you know, I really don't know. He
Speaker 3: was a tough my roof one night. You don't think
Speaker 3: it was him?
Speaker 7: Tell us about that?
Speaker 3: Well, you know what I remember of it. My wife
Speaker 3: and I have bed. Well, first my house El Matto
Speaker 3: Drive and THEA was Rancha Cardova and behind you there
Speaker 3: is an L shaped park, too size park at a
Speaker 3: football field and what have you? You won? End is
Speaker 3: Mitchell Junior High and the other it was a elementary school,
Speaker 3: grade school. I skive which one it was. My kids
Speaker 3: went to the one. And that's exactly what he liked.
Speaker 3: Across the did you'd go across our street neighborhood, Acoma
Speaker 3: Road kind of parallels that road, hardly described. Over there
Speaker 3: was rock miles from the gold drenching days. Used to
Speaker 3: go facing in the holes over there, perfect place to problem.
Speaker 3: The whole town is perfect. Probably the kind of area
Speaker 3: he liked well. And sometime at night, my youngest son,
Speaker 3: he was not quite five, he came in and woke
Speaker 3: us up. He was really scared. I remember that. I
Speaker 3: don't know what he told us. We probably just you
Speaker 3: know here, okay. He went to sleep, and the next
Speaker 3: day he told us he hardly ever slept more than
Speaker 3: four or five hours and nine he still doesn't. But
Speaker 3: he's in bed and he looked. He looked out the
Speaker 3: window and the head hangs down, and he said he
Speaker 3: only saw it because he had an old bobbing thing
Speaker 3: on the top of the cape that was wearing and
Speaker 3: it was bobbing around. The movement caught his eye and
Speaker 3: the faces all covered and the guy took her flashlight
Speaker 3: and shined across the room once and then he was gone.
Speaker 3: He told me, lady. He says, he was standing on
Speaker 3: the roof and he's moving all around like he wanted
Speaker 3: to be heard or something, and we didn't take up.
Speaker 3: We were just too dead sleeve. This too early in
Speaker 3: that morning, I can't So the next day he went
Speaker 3: out and looked in. There was no footprints or anything.
Speaker 3: But my son is pretty sharp. He's atacted very intelligent.
Speaker 3: I wish that as smart as he is, he did
Speaker 3: he did not imagine that at that age. If the
Speaker 3: guy had come in and talked to me, he could
Speaker 3: have held him in a conversation for a while. So
Speaker 3: we were have some perfect place, but you're like to be.
Speaker 3: But he was striking over to the west of that
Speaker 3: part of Cordova that he could have been there very easily.
Speaker 3: So the question is was it him? I think it was.
Speaker 3: Did he know who I was? I don't know. I
Speaker 3: didn't know who he was. I tell you this, if
Speaker 3: I'd known he was up there, one or two things
Speaker 3: would have happened. That hole would have some holes dripped
Speaker 3: and hands the holes in it miy saturated fay cop
Speaker 3: in the world would just come to come in quietly
Speaker 3: and know the guy can see from up there and
Speaker 3: bring the dog and something he would come back, something
Speaker 3: would have happened. M I slipped right through it. I
Speaker 3: can't believe it that what happened? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Crazy? Now as do you illustrate and you will you
Speaker 4: demonstrate and you show me.
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Speaker 8: Well, in this book, at least a connection with what
Speaker 8: starts off is burglarizing and peeping tom and prowling, and
Speaker 8: then sexual assault can lead to an escalation. And so
Speaker 8: some things are changing with the East Area rapists in
Speaker 8: terms of location, but also parts of the MO we're
Speaker 8: talking about I might be moving ahead a little bit here,
Speaker 8: but we're talking about him sobbing him talking to himself.
Speaker 8: There's talk some victims believe that there that he might
Speaker 8: have a partner. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 8: some of these developments and changes in the MO and
Speaker 8: and how he goes from not confronting people too, doesn't
Speaker 8: you know now he's confronting partners.
Speaker 4: And so again tell us about this escalation he went.
Speaker 3: And the very first one take in the first one,
Speaker 3: one of the first ones, he's already talking to somebody.
Speaker 3: The victor didn't believe that there's anybody there, and he
Speaker 3: only stracks. The woman's there alone asleep, and he catch
Speaker 3: him up guard and then it was all it was.
Speaker 3: In seventy seven, seventy seven, he had on Richdale Street
Speaker 3: at Orangevale in a gallon. Her boyfriend were in there,
Speaker 3: and they had her tie him and naturally sud loosely,
Speaker 3: and he tied her and went back and tied the
Speaker 3: boy and the boyfriend, and then he took dishes and
Speaker 3: stacked on his back. I learned that's called the Brazilian
Speaker 3: tree or Brazilian tea, which it was. And then he
Speaker 3: would go tack in the other room. He's doing the
Speaker 3: same thing through his gritted teeth. You know, I just
Speaker 3: want your money. You won't be hurt. And he goes
Speaker 3: in there and he starts talking about oh, threatening, which
Speaker 3: he'd always always done before he does his ransacking, and
Speaker 3: every two minutes it's always back in checking on people.
Speaker 3: Eventually gets the point that he starts trying to act.
Speaker 3: He's not a very good one. He's in there sobbing
Speaker 3: a few different times. Once he's founding the forest thing.
Speaker 3: I hate you, Bonnie, I hate you Bonnie. There might
Speaker 3: have been Mommy, if she couldn't be sure. And on
Speaker 3: more than one occasion he's heard talking to somebody. The
Speaker 3: only thing there was one much later where the gal
Speaker 3: said he was in the garage and heard him say
Speaker 3: put that in the car, And neighbor said they heard
Speaker 3: that little beating sound of the car door open. So
Speaker 3: and then when the cops got there, they checked the
Speaker 3: lights and burnt haunted and the garage. If he had
Speaker 3: a car and there he put it in there and
Speaker 3: took it out. He didn't use their car. I think
Speaker 3: when the last one's over there. She knew this in
Speaker 3: the garage, and she thought she heard somebody walking out
Speaker 3: of the patio. There was one other when in guess
Speaker 3: the one way the guy said the suspect look at Neanderthal.
Speaker 3: The car pulled up and honk the horn, and the
Speaker 3: male victims said, here's the guy go in the backyard.
Speaker 3: The female said, I heard the horn honk. I think
Speaker 3: it was twice right, and twice again, and then came
Speaker 3: back up and knocked on the door and knocked on
Speaker 3: the window. Then she heard hush, voices and what I
Speaker 3: was a female and one had to have been the suspect,
Speaker 3: and then females gone. A little bit later he was
Speaker 3: gone too. So there's a couple of times there you
Speaker 3: can find with this good indication this guy hadn't accomplished,
Speaker 3: but there's never any real hard fact I would back
Speaker 3: by then I wouldn't be surprised he didn't have an
Speaker 3: accomplice with it, but the deteriorating personality. You know, we
Speaker 3: my partner girl Biggie, and I were wondering about this
Speaker 3: guy really going up to the ben killing somebody, because
Speaker 3: he's making more and more threats and talking to him,
Speaker 3: Moore was acting even more bizarre. And then I think
Speaker 3: that's when the office started talking about using psychological terms
Speaker 3: dealing with homosexual fear of her anger. I thought, remember
Speaker 3: what else it was. We also noticed he's becoming less
Speaker 3: and less capable of performing the sex act, and definitely
Speaker 3: he was not very much interested in any longer. One
Speaker 3: gal said he enjoyed tying her up far more than
Speaker 3: he did anything about sex. More than one said he
Speaker 3: had no interest in sex at all. It's just kind
Speaker 3: of what he was doing, just trying to humiliate the guy.
Speaker 3: I guess if he could cause it a lot of
Speaker 3: pain anyway, he would do it. But now the moment's hesitation.
Speaker 3: When he went down south. The first pedially assaulted down
Speaker 3: there said he was walking back and forth whispering to
Speaker 3: himself because either I got to kill him, but we
Speaker 3: got to kill him. I couldn't kill him. Well, the
Speaker 3: woman decides lay there and let him on a psychotic
Speaker 3: cut her throat, so she went out the door, even
Speaker 3: though she was all tied out, So she went out
Speaker 3: her went out back door. In the meantime, the bad
Speaker 3: guy would out the front door and caught her and
Speaker 3: brought her back. Then he found it back husband was
Speaker 3: gone sing up the back door and couldn't find him
Speaker 3: while he was out there, She went the front door again.
Speaker 3: This turns out her neighbor is sitting upstairs reading a
Speaker 3: book facing her house was an MBA agent and he
Speaker 3: heard some of this sleep had his gun went down there. Anyway,
Speaker 3: they got kind of a profile shot of the guy
Speaker 3: and chased him and he got away. But turns out
Speaker 3: it was probably the Easter rape. And then there's after that.
Speaker 3: I think a couple months later he murdered two people
Speaker 3: from then on he killed everybody. He raped, some didn't rape,
Speaker 3: he shot some and bludgeoned and just bludged them. I know,
Speaker 3: he was just having a field day killing the murder
Speaker 3: in there was this thrill.
Speaker 8: This East Area rapist hasn't achieved the kind of fame
Speaker 8: that the Nightstalker of Philip Carlo of Los Angeles and
Speaker 8: San Francisco fame. But at the same time there is this, uh,
Speaker 8: there's these murders. Now. What I was going to ask
Speaker 8: was what was the public response, What was the public
Speaker 8: awareness of this East Area rapist as an entity? And
Speaker 8: again what was the public and what was the media response,
Speaker 8: especially once you start killing?
Speaker 3: You know up here when he first started, we didn't
Speaker 3: release the information because we knew nothing and we knew
Speaker 3: people would demand the composite or something. And a reporter,
Speaker 3: Warren Holloway, was wandering around the office all the time
Speaker 3: and he came up with it. I'm sure it was
Speaker 3: him at the term Easter a rapist. That would have
Speaker 3: been sometime in November seventy six, maybe seventy six. Anyway,
Speaker 3: they put it out and people start calling and they
Speaker 3: went to composite. The very first composite he put out
Speaker 3: was a literal composite, and the it was compositive composites
Speaker 3: and discompiled thought of them the guy and any of
Speaker 3: them did. And then it continued on, and then he
Speaker 3: started moving to the country across the county Stockton Modesta,
Speaker 3: and those days he didn't want to hear it. A
Speaker 3: couple of just flat refused, basically just kicked the investigators
Speaker 3: out of their office. And now they can get out
Speaker 3: of here. He's not over here, we're not going to
Speaker 3: hear about it. But over there in that area they
Speaker 3: became really parannoyed. People started really watching. The last one
Speaker 3: that was intended to be assaulted by this guy, he
Speaker 3: and his wife made plans just in case, and he
Speaker 3: woke up and he saw the guy putting on a mask.
Speaker 3: Well the man saw him, and the man who was
Speaker 3: about twice understand about twice the size of the suspect
Speaker 3: and probably could have twisted his head off, but he
Speaker 3: didn't do it. But he got that's where the mask,
Speaker 3: you know, he looked right at him, got out of
Speaker 3: up close like a couple of feet, and his wife
Speaker 3: saw the guy when he went out the doors, he
Speaker 3: saw him in the light, and that's when after that
Speaker 3: is when he moved down south, because he got some
Speaker 3: close to getting caught up here. But then they got
Speaker 3: down there and Bevans and reroutment down there and talked
Speaker 3: to the Santa Barbara County He's now, that's not the
Speaker 3: same guy. Bev's yead Is group disagreed. Well, turns out
Speaker 3: Bevans is right, and finally they had admitted it was him.
Speaker 3: And then they had several Santa Barbara, Orange County and
Speaker 3: Mantua and it wasn't until they got DNA and all
Speaker 3: of them did those everybodys convinced that it was the
Speaker 3: same person. The guy would try to, you know, hide
Speaker 3: his trail, you try to make it look like a
Speaker 3: or you try to change his m someone. It didn't work.
Speaker 3: I guess he didn't know enough about DNA at the time.
Speaker 3: But they were pretty paranoid. As far as the media,
Speaker 3: I have no idea what sets about the hurdy bird rapists.
Speaker 3: They already ever talked about it. He's terry rapist. Hip boom,
Speaker 3: they they exploded. They were everywhere. So I try. Some
Speaker 3: people don't know why I didn't pick a point. Media
Speaker 3: could tell you that.
Speaker 8: I guess what I was going to ask before was
Speaker 8: about the Zodiac killer. Part of his infamy and part
Speaker 8: of a lot of the serial killers infamy is that
Speaker 8: they contact the media again, making the media very very involved,
Speaker 8: and you know, maybe they get interested. Then was this
Speaker 8: a feature of this rapist killer as well? Contacting the
Speaker 8: media at any point?
Speaker 3: This guy called the Sheriff's solfs a few times, make
Speaker 3: a a little wise remarks and I was going to
Speaker 3: hear it again and all that, and it turns out
Speaker 3: he generally did. It was him. There was a poem written,
Speaker 3: and I know it went to a psychiatry and I
Speaker 3: think it back he went to a newspaper and a
Speaker 3: TV ended up in the sheriff of Sulfish. It showed
Speaker 3: up right after I transferred out. And I've been told
Speaker 3: recently that it first went to a psychiatrist whose office
Speaker 3: is right across the street from woman. I forgot her name,
Speaker 3: but she had something like Karen's poetry reading, poetry reading
Speaker 3: and poetry room, stuff like that. She says, did I
Speaker 3: tried to find it. I learned that and then he
Speaker 3: said to these people, so I don't know, they don't
Speaker 3: know for a fact it came from the from these
Speaker 3: day rapist. I personally think it shows a high degree
Speaker 3: of intelligence, and I don't know that the ear never
Speaker 3: showed any real strong evidence of intelligence. He's cagy. He
Speaker 3: didn't get caught. He didn't get caught because he's smart.
Speaker 3: People didn't do what they should and people tried to
Speaker 3: do what they should and messed it up, and it
Speaker 3: just you know, everything is dispelled his way. But he
Speaker 3: was casey. He was smart like a fox. Let'll tell
Speaker 3: you that.
Speaker 8: The other thing that I and I and I will
Speaker 8: I might as well, we might as well go into
Speaker 8: it right now just a little bit, because this is
Speaker 8: my Everyone that reads this book is going to turn
Speaker 8: into an amateur sleuth. And we've had a couple of
Speaker 8: calls tonight and again at the end, i'll talk about
Speaker 8: message board that that a person that's on the message board,
Speaker 8: a person goes by the handle three two zero on
Speaker 8: and I'll mention the message board at the end. UH
Speaker 8: actually turned me onto your book, Richard, and so I
Speaker 8: just wanted to give him credit for that to alert
Speaker 8: me to this your your book and this another book
Speaker 8: because I had covered this case somewhat with Larry Crompton.
Speaker 8: And we can talk about that at the end too
Speaker 8: that his book about this part of this case anyway,
Speaker 8: But what I was going to say was that one
Speaker 8: of the things that I found fascinating, and again this
Speaker 8: amateur sleuth that came out in me, is that there
Speaker 8: were reports, many reports that he was speaking through clenched teeth,
Speaker 8: and that some of the victims thought that he was
Speaker 8: trying to disguise his either high voice, and that there
Speaker 8: was some talk of maybe having a Mexican accent or
Speaker 8: some kind of accent. And then there was often times
Speaker 8: where it seemed that he stuttered somewhat, or somebody who
Speaker 8: was trying to suppress a stutter. And I grew up
Speaker 8: with a guy who was my best friend when I
Speaker 8: was a kid, And when my friend, who was a
Speaker 8: real bad stutterer, he would speak in different voices just
Speaker 8: fooling around on a telephone, and he would not stutter
Speaker 8: almost at all. In fact, virtually there'd be no stutter
Speaker 8: when he did a different voice. So I just thought,
Speaker 8: as an amateur sleuth, I'd bring out that point for
Speaker 8: whatever it's worth.
Speaker 4: But tell us a little bit about what.
Speaker 8: You thought from his I thought there was something in
Speaker 8: the clenched teeth and him with this voice, and so
Speaker 8: many conclusions victims that there was something that he was
Speaker 8: trying to do with his voice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most of them, almost all of them, not all
Speaker 3: of them, and most said that he he seemed to
Speaker 3: be trying to make his voice sound deeper, and the
Speaker 3: more nervously excited he got, the more high pitched they got.
Speaker 3: Some said he thought he picked up by a starter,
Speaker 3: and a couple of them had some profession that gave
Speaker 3: him the opportunity to know if as somebody studied with
Speaker 3: for real or not. They were convinced. He actually started
Speaker 3: to study a few times in there, and the Mexican
Speaker 3: accident was picked up two or three times, so it
Speaker 3: was a physical description and the guy who's had a
Speaker 3: pot belly then, so he was probably a Mexican just
Speaker 3: trying to copy somebody. And one victim thought he was black,
Speaker 3: one thought he was Oriental. They had nothing really to
Speaker 3: base it on, but essentially he was I gather who
Speaker 3: this guy was when he went into these places. He
Speaker 3: was really scared himself. He was nervous, but until he
Speaker 3: got them all secured and they couldn't do anything, then
Speaker 3: he's pretty brave. But he's always trying to disguise his
Speaker 3: voice somewhat, but there was a couple of them, and
Speaker 3: everybody said he didn't seem to be taking the voice.
Speaker 3: He just both real low and almost always threw clinched teeth,
Speaker 3: I think, And at first one I went to with
Speaker 3: jan he was doing the same thing. But at one
Speaker 3: point he kind of started speaking in a normal voice.
Speaker 3: The only reason I think he did not have a
Speaker 3: high pitched voice unless he made it scared. Was that
Speaker 3: Valiant that those people sold in December seventy six. It
Speaker 3: was later impounded. They said he had a I think
Speaker 3: it was well modulated voice. At the fact the report
Speaker 3: what I wrote in there, I get everything at all,
Speaker 3: But his voices was not high pitched. He was just
Speaker 3: he was real reticent. Finally gave him the name. Didn't
Speaker 3: want to talk about himself and car As. I concerned
Speaker 3: that was the serie rapist right there. But he was
Speaker 3: so peasy I don't think he left mind any kind
Speaker 3: of evidence.
Speaker 8: Now, this book encompasses crimes occurring from nineteen seventy four
Speaker 8: to nineteen eighty six, but in the spring of two thousand,
Speaker 8: there you are called again. Tell us when you did retire,
Speaker 8: and tell us about the conditions of being called again,
Speaker 8: what was said and tell us what happens in the
Speaker 8: year two thousand and Of course, DNA has come a
Speaker 8: long way since then.
Speaker 3: He has. I retired in nineteen ninety three, March twenty fourth,
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, and I got a call from John McKennis.
Speaker 3: He had been the press person, the folks person to
Speaker 3: the department prior to that. Then he was under sheriff.
Speaker 3: When he called me, he basically became sheriff. But the
Speaker 3: DNA finally connected all these crimes, or almost all of them.
Speaker 3: As DNA was developed, eather One was retired into the
Speaker 3: they decided to put together a small task force. They
Speaker 3: want to know if I wanted to join it, Well,
Speaker 3: you have to on call. Reserve means you got to
Speaker 3: take a test, all kinds of stuff. I wasn't I
Speaker 3: was going to do that. He is igret about it.
Speaker 3: A few years later, Russ Ollis, he's a retired special
Speaker 3: investigat in the federal government, called him. How I got
Speaker 3: my number? But anyway, I talked to him for a while.
Speaker 3: Eventually he asked me to right down. I can remember
Speaker 3: about this stuff, you know, and as I can't, Buddy
Speaker 3: else's body so cursed the clear sum isn't. And I
Speaker 3: ended up typing up about five hundred pages of stuff,
Speaker 3: and that's the ridiculous, and so I dumped a lot
Speaker 3: of it. In the meantime, he wanted me to help
Speaker 3: him go out and get some DNA and some people
Speaker 3: and do some backgrounds work. And I thought I can't
Speaker 3: get rid of the damn case, I might as well helped.
Speaker 3: I think that was two thousand and nine. I got
Speaker 3: back into it. So we started going from there and
Speaker 3: that led to this this book. He was part of
Speaker 3: the mess the board A and E boards. I think
Speaker 3: it broke down. They went to another one, but I
Speaker 3: never visited that board. Me tell me some of the stuff,
Speaker 3: he said, and I thought, well, there's stuff there that
Speaker 3: is wrong, this stuff and make it. I was going
Speaker 3: to give it to somebody, to give to them a
Speaker 3: chat throughout a week or something like that, and eventually
Speaker 3: it made a morph into this book. I think half
Speaker 3: of it was just I got a kick. I was saying,
Speaker 3: I'm an author, now, you know, I mean, never intended
Speaker 3: to be a real big boxer book or anything else.
Speaker 3: I didn't fool myself with that. But that's what the
Speaker 3: whole thing was for was to help those people what
Speaker 3: I call the armchairs sluice, but you know, give them
Speaker 3: a hand up. But since all that, I've talked to
Speaker 3: a couple and they know more about the reason livestocker
Speaker 3: than I do. I know about the first two cases
Speaker 3: because I was consulted on them and I have the
Speaker 3: reports at home. The rest of them I had to
Speaker 3: find here and they are in the page connect kind
Speaker 3: of stuff. But they do, they know quite a bit.
Speaker 3: They got some pretty good theories out there. They got
Speaker 3: some of the ready whack, and you got some series
Speaker 3: that no matter what you tell them, they're going to
Speaker 3: stick with it. You can disprove with all you want,
Speaker 3: they're going to stay with that one potest.
Speaker 8: All that came from, Yeah, you messaged you, you mentioned this,
Speaker 8: and I was in correspondence with again his handle three
Speaker 8: two oh or three two zero, and it's e A
Speaker 8: r o N s g SK dot pro boards, p
Speaker 8: r O boards dot com. Again e A r O
Speaker 8: N s g SK dot ProBoards dot com. So if
Speaker 8: you're talking about all these people that becomes loose, it's
Speaker 8: such a fascinating case. In total, you have fifty three
Speaker 8: sexual assaults and twelve murders attributed to the East Area rapist.
Speaker 3: That we know of. There's one other of sexual assault
Speaker 3: he probably did. And there's a homicide I've heard about
Speaker 3: down south that he might have done. And I just
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 4: He was true, was there? Sorry, go ahead, like.
Speaker 3: I say, there's one sexual assault up here. They tried
Speaker 3: to lay it on him, and I know it was.
Speaker 3: It was at Artpainton. That thing went down. If you
Speaker 3: take one of the rapes he was rested for in
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight, The location and the victims are the
Speaker 3: only thing different. The structure. I mean in front of
Speaker 3: the apartment on the sidewalk, the words said everything exactly
Speaker 3: the same. I know we did that. And the next
Speaker 3: one there was a woman in her fifties or sixties,
Speaker 3: and she walked downstairs and this guy is tearing up
Speaker 3: towels and picking mind and I mean minded, mindfold and
Speaker 3: she saw him and yelled for her boyfriend upstairs, and
Speaker 3: and the guy took off for running. I had a
Speaker 3: big stack what they called I said, city's in there.
Speaker 3: I must have been fifty of them in that stack.
Speaker 3: And she started through it almost immediately picked up handed
Speaker 3: to miss him that was our pink because she refused
Speaker 3: to found the complaint. Today, I just say tell the
Speaker 3: DA you don't put I could find him in arresting
Speaker 3: and let her and the DA work it out because
Speaker 3: he was getting ready to assault her. Here's the piece
Speaker 3: of work.
Speaker 4: Now, you do a great job of and I admire
Speaker 4: this show.
Speaker 8: Rather than tell, rather than making conclusions, you've left it
Speaker 8: up to us to sort this out, because again, I
Speaker 8: guess it's hard to give conclusions when you don't have
Speaker 8: the suspect. It's hard to say yes when you didn't
Speaker 8: get around to a very viable suspect other than Art Pinkton,
Speaker 8: which can't be He can't be attributed to all of
Speaker 8: these crimes. So between the Visalia ransacker, early morning rapists,
Speaker 8: early bird rapist, and the crimes that are attributed to
Speaker 8: the East Area rapist, original nightstalker, what is your conclusion
Speaker 8: or conclusions regarding give us some of the conclusions.
Speaker 4: I'm just dying for that. In terms of.
Speaker 8: Why you've included all of these things, is there an
Speaker 8: incredible phenomena of serial killer or serial rapist copycatting?
Speaker 4: Tell us.
Speaker 3: I've thought about that. Disc started in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 3: I responded to a call where somebody broke into a
Speaker 3: house and they beat a dog to death. I mean it,
Speaker 3: they beat the dog apart. The guys seen jumping off
Speaker 3: the roof of the house described as sixteen eighteen military
Speaker 3: fatigues pond here he hit the ground run. He didn't
Speaker 3: hit and squat down. He was in movement already. Why
Speaker 3: I've seen that is when I saw a movie at
Speaker 3: the Seedals training and he went right over the fence
Speaker 3: and to a cement. Bitch, okay, if that was him,
Speaker 3: that's say he was seventeen years old. There was four
Speaker 3: assaults in that general area, like within a dozen blocks.
Speaker 3: I guess there's also a lot of apartment buildings. He
Speaker 3: could have lived there and one of them he tried
Speaker 3: to He did assaulted woman, but she managed to get away.
Speaker 3: Last time the guy was seen his walking down the
Speaker 3: street half naked. By the way, his legs were tanned,
Speaker 3: but his butt was just no white. So we know
Speaker 3: that goes out in the sun. He be gone there,
Speaker 3: or he could have had a car bicycle down there,
Speaker 3: which is normally did and gone off, except you don't
Speaker 3: know could I mean, he could have been in the military.
Speaker 3: He could when the right age had just gotten in.
Speaker 3: He did his stint and asked what he was station
Speaker 3: at MAK Then you go on when you follow these through,
Speaker 3: the typical I should say the average description is the
Speaker 3: physical is the same.
Speaker 10: Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 8: Lucky?
Speaker 6: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
Speaker 6: dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 5: You do in the car before my kid's PTA meeting.
Speaker 10: Really, yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: I never went in?
Speaker 10: Tell well, there you have it. You could get lucky
Speaker 10: anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot com play for free
Speaker 10: right now?
Speaker 9: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 10: We're necessary for were gonna be my long eighteen plus
Speaker 10: terms conditions.
Speaker 3: Plus you watch everybody else, But the age is eighteen
Speaker 3: to twenty three, twenty three being most likely. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of connections with the military, like he assaulted somebody
Speaker 3: with a thing the military uses and trained their right
Speaker 3: we believe the time. Yeah, he had a little night
Speaker 3: stick which cops used to get the military. Police never
Speaker 3: just called the nice stick as twelve inches long, and
Speaker 3: he had a sam Baun crown belt. That kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: He can gives those anywhere, maybe seen in jump boots
Speaker 3: a couple of times. I think once is the takedask
Speaker 3: for blouse and I can't be sure that any or
Speaker 3: it's been so long, so you go along with that
Speaker 3: and he describe really is there's a lighteens early twenty
Speaker 3: s possibility military. A couple of times he see him
Speaker 3: a military posture. I saw a guy one night that
Speaker 3: it probably was him. He had military posture. And other
Speaker 3: times he kind of slouch and then he starts moving
Speaker 3: out of the area and goes away, and then the
Speaker 3: script starts changing a little bit, and then he started
Speaker 3: getting and all these there's two or three cans of
Speaker 3: soda or something nearby. Then he goes over to count
Speaker 3: Acosta County. He goes over to Santa s. Davis and
Speaker 3: Yellow County, and he stocked him a desperately bounces all
Speaker 3: around the place. But once he leaves here, I should
Speaker 3: back up. There was five military Basis three and Sacramento two,
Speaker 3: but in an hour's drive hour or less, he could
Speaker 3: have been any one of those places, plus the military reserve.
Speaker 3: Once he leaves here. None of his victims have anything
Speaker 3: to do with the military here. About half of them
Speaker 3: did it with Sunstandable. All of them has do the
Speaker 3: real estate when they were here, at least that I
Speaker 3: can determine some up in just no way of knowing.
Speaker 3: Now when he leaves here, no military, but just connection
Speaker 3: for the medical like visiting pharmacies and visiting a medical
Speaker 3: employee in the family, that kind of thing. But no
Speaker 3: military again. And then he goes down south and you
Speaker 3: have the real estate and the medical. There's there's nothing
Speaker 3: else down there. So if I was going to look
Speaker 3: at real estate, I think I mentioned all ago. I
Speaker 3: wouldn't look at lenders, excuse me. I would look at
Speaker 3: the praisers. But there's no way to figure out who
Speaker 3: they were. Insurance companies. One insurance company it was Frederick
Speaker 3: Sauer's Long Long s A U D R. Take a
Speaker 3: R E R. They're long out of business for guys
Speaker 3: long gone. Two of the victims down south. I had
Speaker 3: a policy with that company. The companies based out of Stockton,
Speaker 3: and we ran every weigh in the world. And you
Speaker 3: know nothing, nothing at all, but I mean, and there's
Speaker 3: no way to touch it as far as I know,
Speaker 3: they had no power see the anybody up here. It
Speaker 3: could be just a pure coincidence. So where he worked
Speaker 3: I don't know. But you can pick any crime you want,
Speaker 3: put up the details and go from there forwards and backwards,
Speaker 3: thinking the details and check them out, and you'll start
Speaker 3: connect with ideas. I don't think he drove a cab.
Speaker 3: I don't think he drove a tow truck twice once
Speaker 3: it came out. Oh more than thirty years after the
Speaker 3: sacking guy, he says, oh, I say about this what
Speaker 3: he saw, and he described the guy taking and when
Speaker 3: I thought he was the car salesman. Investos was on
Speaker 3: duty one night and he saw these cops park around
Speaker 3: Fourth Parkway. He seemed the last, oh not the last,
Speaker 3: but the sexual assault by the ear and then he
Speaker 3: runs into a car and has an encounter with it,
Speaker 3: and it really bothered him. He didn't know till later
Speaker 3: about this break down there. He would have stopped that car,
Speaker 3: but he said, it's like a car salesman. And he
Speaker 3: was wearing a coat and tie at five o'clock in
Speaker 3: the morning hit downtown sack. So when he was hurting
Speaker 3: all these crimes, that is opening and closing his bags.
Speaker 3: He could have been changing close. I don't know what
Speaker 3: he was doing. They wandered at the time if he
Speaker 3: just sat a palsekeeping somewhere, you know what. Everything he took,
Speaker 3: and usually he didn't always take stuff with value, but
Speaker 3: sometimes you might. He took fourteen or sixteen hundred dollars
Speaker 3: in one victim, and he took dime wedding rings off
Speaker 3: and the other one. Sometimes he takes stuff with diet.
Speaker 3: Most time he didn't. Just no way you know what's
Speaker 3: going on that guy's head, No way at all. But
Speaker 3: speaking that book was to say here, everybody, you got
Speaker 3: the same information we had. In fact, one person emailed
Speaker 3: me says, well, you know, but what after some conclusion,
Speaker 3: I said, I don't know. I wrote this is we
Speaker 3: have so now you can draw the same figures we did.
Speaker 3: Figure where you go.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, when you talked about the three piece suit,
Speaker 8: is interesting too that there was reports that there was
Speaker 8: a suspicious real estate agent, again not asking questions that
Speaker 8: were relevant for anybody purchasing real estate or a real
Speaker 8: estate agent, that he wanted to know when their partners
Speaker 8: would be back, or they were looking he was looking
Speaker 8: at outside of the house. And not looking at the
Speaker 8: kinds of things that people who were interested in real
Speaker 8: estate actually wouldn't look at.
Speaker 3: So I think I know what he's talking about. After
Speaker 3: the mirylin Dale assault, I got a call from the
Speaker 3: sergeant is to a South Stake Whole police department. He
Speaker 3: saw about the guy they had up there that he
Speaker 3: mentioned there was sexual assaults and women, but he didn't
Speaker 3: say sexual. And every time the auficers show up, this
Speaker 3: guy would screting her issue up out of breasting. I chased,
Speaker 3: almost caught him, but lost him. He's thinking, this guy
Speaker 3: is probably good for all of these, so he gave
Speaker 3: me his name, so he's going to check to see
Speaker 3: if he had been in the tophel of that night
Speaker 3: of that assault. I gave it to the detective thread Basin,
Speaker 3: and don't forget, I wasn't running that task force. I
Speaker 3: was running my own thing. I gave it to him
Speaker 3: and made a report and he went off to ray
Speaker 3: Ruder whoever got it, and Bason checked into it. What
Speaker 3: happened was this cow As it turns out, she owned
Speaker 3: the house whereon the Dale saw it went down. She
Speaker 3: sold it herself and two people showed up, one named Parker,
Speaker 3: and they said, other guy, whatever the name I gave
Speaker 3: him in there, he's long bed by the way and
Speaker 3: has been cleared. They showed up, not together. Both of
Speaker 3: them said they worked for I think it was American
Speaker 3: River Realty. I didn't think of it must have existed.
Speaker 3: But the one guy, she thought that was odd because
Speaker 3: both came the same company. And this one guy didn't
Speaker 3: make an appointment, and he walked around, looked right outside,
Speaker 3: got inside and didn't look at the things at the
Speaker 3: prospective for agents can we look at He's very interested
Speaker 3: in her schedule of her husband and daughter, and whenever
Speaker 3: she tried to look him in the eyes, he couldn't.
Speaker 3: He just glared at her. He's scared real bad. Well,
Speaker 3: Mason ran it down. He found out that need did.
Speaker 3: One of these guys worked for the American River Reality.
Speaker 3: They worked for American River Development or some development company
Speaker 3: long gone. And they found out where the one guy's
Speaker 3: I think we're we're living where his car was and
Speaker 3: I couldn't find any more reports but asking oh for
Speaker 3: a year or so ago when it came up, and
Speaker 3: he didn't remember what he did with it. It was
Speaker 3: lost interesting got transferred to something I don't know, but anyway,
Speaker 3: modern detectives ran the guy down and they eliminated him
Speaker 3: because I was looking for it and I couldn't find
Speaker 3: more than a few people in the entire country with
Speaker 3: his name. And about two or three years ago we
Speaker 3: had a sister and ex wife and several ex wives
Speaker 3: still living, and I never contacted. I thought out from
Speaker 3: the homicide detectives they had eliminated him already, but he
Speaker 3: really was a strange But I don't know what they
Speaker 3: did about partner, even tentified him or not, but that
Speaker 3: I think that's the what he's.
Speaker 8: Talking In your book, you also talk about we just
Speaker 8: mentioned DNA, but at the same time, you need to
Speaker 8: have the evidence preserved, need to have the evidence accessible
Speaker 8: to be able to do DNA. Tell us first, how
Speaker 8: excited some of them, maybe yourself and some other people
Speaker 8: were once you knew that the advent of DNA testing
Speaker 8: had progressed to the level had had. And then tell
Speaker 8: us about that the practical aspect of where is the evidence.
Speaker 3: Once you get that evidence, you have to seal it
Speaker 3: up the market and put your initial state onder what if?
Speaker 3: And then you have to have refrigerated and you have
Speaker 3: to get it to the crime land where it's going
Speaker 3: to go. We were all thrilled to get that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff. And you start trying to get evidence of
Speaker 3: our DNA from people, you can walk up and ask
Speaker 3: it most of them untill you know you can set
Speaker 3: there and you want to fall him around along. Then
Speaker 3: you can see him sit down and need a hamburger
Speaker 3: and jacosoda and toss the straw into the garbage can.
Speaker 3: You walk over and if you know you can spot
Speaker 3: which one it is, you can grab that and do that.
Speaker 3: Or you always go out and get the garbage can
Speaker 3: tonight and you don't know who the evident DNA you're
Speaker 3: getting could be anybody's. Those are the only three ways
Speaker 3: you're to get them. But down south to the murders
Speaker 3: that the vision lifetocker did the brother and one of
Speaker 3: the victims was the I think his lawyer, it's pretty wealthy.
Speaker 3: He spent about million dollars. He finally got Proposition sixty
Speaker 3: nine passed. So anybody that's I think is convicted of
Speaker 3: a telony has to give up their DNA. And how
Speaker 3: many times they have to resulted in that case being cleared,
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's been a few times DNA
Speaker 3: once you get the DNA, because they got a loan
Speaker 3: file everywhere, and the FBI has to and now and
Speaker 3: then they kind of picked and nose in and see
Speaker 3: if they can help a little bit. And they ran
Speaker 3: this guy's DNA here DNA through some kind of a program.
Speaker 3: They taking about four hundred hips, came back with none
Speaker 3: about money. Yet this guy's family does not have their
Speaker 3: DNA hunt file anywhere.
Speaker 8: What about what about DNA garnered from evidence of all
Speaker 8: those again, fifty three sexual assaults and twelve murders?
Speaker 4: Was that put into codis or codex?
Speaker 8: And were there any Obviously there was no results, but
Speaker 8: was there some anticipation that that might work.
Speaker 3: No, if they got the DNA from anything, then it
Speaker 3: goes into the files and it is always there, just
Speaker 3: automatic checking, as I understand, because all that stuff was
Speaker 3: being developed as I left, automatic automatically checked. And everybody's
Speaker 3: got the fingers cross. As it does turnout from time
Speaker 3: to time they hit somebody with it. This guy, I
Speaker 3: think he stayed rapists between sixty seven and in the
Speaker 3: sixty three years old. Obviously that could be wrong. I
Speaker 3: think he's very much alive. He's very much around. He's
Speaker 3: very much monitoring these boards anything else you can find
Speaker 3: it fieesus ego, which is one of the things that
Speaker 3: bothered me about writing this book. But he's there. He's
Speaker 3: not dead. I don't think he's handicapped either. I talked
Speaker 3: about how circumstances around Russ Hollis's house the kate very
Speaker 3: much that the year was messing around over there for
Speaker 3: a while. In it tied end with his contact and
Speaker 3: the suspect that we're investigating. And as soon as we've
Speaker 3: got the suspect, DNA eliminated him. All that stuff stopped.
Speaker 3: So we've got to be a connection there. But that
Speaker 3: that t OI, they call it person of interest. He's
Speaker 3: not really cooperating. So we know who he went to school,
Speaker 3: and I got a whole list of their names. They
Speaker 3: read one down. He's a doctor now I don't know
Speaker 3: where the others are.
Speaker 8: So incredible, so incredibly, there are still leads, there's still
Speaker 8: investigative routes to pursue.
Speaker 4: You still have some hope with this, don't you.
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I don't want to get you named anything else.
Speaker 3: Pay they come in contact with the guy recently who's
Speaker 3: small the right areas him and his brothers.
Speaker 4: And.
Speaker 3: He's I don't know. I don't think he's the guy,
Speaker 3: but he's can give a lot of information that can
Speaker 3: lead us to where we want to go. And now
Speaker 3: there's just a whole bunch of ways to going. It's
Speaker 3: a far from a cold case, and anybody wants to
Speaker 3: work this thing by all means to do it, gon't
Speaker 3: find out what you can. Just don't go contacting victims
Speaker 3: and particularly suspects that you can avoid if you think
Speaker 3: it's really him, Just give what you can and turn
Speaker 3: it over to the local cup. I think in the
Speaker 3: book I have a website mentioned in their email link.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: And then other person that could help is Michelle McNamara,
Speaker 3: preinanced journalist writing the book about the Olden State Killer.
Speaker 3: I think she'll be going to press pretty soon, but
Speaker 3: I don't know that for a fact.
Speaker 8: Tell us just briefly about Larry Crompton's book and how
Speaker 8: he was involved in this East Area rapist I investigation.
Speaker 3: Once, when the crime was going on, Sergeant Clavis and
Speaker 3: I went over there Bell was working for quite a while.
Speaker 3: He fighted me over this and went over and while
Speaker 3: we did that thing, BEV was even told me. He says,
Speaker 3: the guy's gonna hit in about two weeks, just going
Speaker 3: the Harry over here, And he did two weeks here
Speaker 3: right over there. But then Prumpt's book came out, and
Speaker 3: I think about his. He mixes back and fiction. It's
Speaker 3: a very large book. I think it's around five hundred
Speaker 3: pages so, and what happened in Sacramento he has reports
Speaker 3: down pretty good, but the rest of it is just
Speaker 3: pure speculation. He doesn't know that he had my name
Speaker 3: in here now, I mean where he got it, and
Speaker 3: he had me doing a public speech or something, which
Speaker 3: I'm not really going to do. And then he goes
Speaker 3: on from there and he does the same thing. And
Speaker 3: when I did mine, I put leads or tips information
Speaker 3: developed well first and around the sacrament And when I
Speaker 3: was at all I put in stuff he coudn't possibly
Speaker 3: know about. I drew that picture of the office and
Speaker 3: the house, what was happening and so forth. And then
Speaker 3: in the cases I got the same thing he does.
Speaker 3: I don't go in details of the sex acts because,
Speaker 3: like I say, in there, if you're interested, if I
Speaker 3: carry is excitement, go somewhere else. I'm simainly not going
Speaker 3: to get in and all this thing. Somebody described it
Speaker 3: as not being salacious. That works for me. But all
Speaker 3: the information, the prowlers and that kind of stuff I've
Speaker 3: done at all. Right, And then I go down to
Speaker 3: original life stocker and I don't if I should have put.
Speaker 4: That or not.
Speaker 3: I put it in here because they tried to lay
Speaker 3: it out showing a continuity of all that stuff. But
Speaker 3: just so much down there. I don't really know, but
Speaker 3: I do have some down there, so pretty reliable. But
Speaker 3: every now and he calls me to somebody who must
Speaker 3: be to go check out for you.
Speaker 4: So that was that was your purpose.
Speaker 8: You've mentioned that already, to clarify a bunch of things
Speaker 8: and set the record straight and put out all the
Speaker 8: available information. And you were the you know, you were
Speaker 8: the person so intimately involved in this, and so you
Speaker 8: are the guy that can write the definitive book. And
Speaker 8: have there been significant developments since this book has been released?
Speaker 3: Well, I could, you know?
Speaker 4: For me?
Speaker 3: I came up with information. I'm down south, not much
Speaker 3: up here. The people are responding and they're contacting the local.
Speaker 3: In fact, I got like I said that one guy
Speaker 3: called me when I wish you could go away. I
Speaker 3: can't help me, and the other guy just got an
Speaker 3: email from him and he developed the suspect. It really
Speaker 3: sounded like the guy, but they just got the DNA
Speaker 3: back and it's not him, and there's some more involving
Speaker 3: in the construction. In fact, I had one guy it
Speaker 3: really sounds good, and he's somewhere in Utah now if
Speaker 3: I don't know where, and he's connected the construction down
Speaker 3: in southern California. I'd like to get his DNA. Nobody's
Speaker 3: got sons around here, but I don't know if they
Speaker 3: got the same father. It's a strange thing to say,
Speaker 3: but the fact, and I don't know how much my
Speaker 3: book has contributed to impacted in desication associally. If you
Speaker 3: don't know, to help me a little bit with some
Speaker 3: information that comes in.
Speaker 8: Well, there's definitely been a little buzz even for this
Speaker 8: program here, and there's a lot of anticipation of this interview.
Speaker 8: Hopefully we've done that justice to answer some of the
Speaker 8: questions for some of these people. But like you say,
Speaker 8: some of these people are are very up on these cases,
Speaker 8: and that's the reason for these message boards and such
Speaker 8: interest in this case. Any again, I ask you for conclusions.
Speaker 8: What has this case again, I'm sorry for this sort
Speaker 8: of cliche question, but what has this case done for you?
Speaker 4: What has it? What does it meant for you? And well,
Speaker 4: how's it affected you?
Speaker 3: Well, good question. It's a You know, I lived and
Speaker 3: breathed this thing twenty four to seven. Practically for that
Speaker 3: first whole year or whatever it was seven was I
Speaker 3: forget no longer say a year, and then it always
Speaker 3: comes up. Over the years. People would call me up
Speaker 3: this stuff, or even though I wasn't involved, I didn't
Speaker 3: remember my name or something, give me some information, asked
Speaker 3: you some questions. So it's never gone away. And like
Speaker 3: I said when Rest called, I figured out and get
Speaker 3: rid of this. I might help him wh and get
Speaker 3: rid of it writing the book, and they put it
Speaker 3: all back together and get it perspective again. And now
Speaker 3: and then I'll think of something that I should have
Speaker 3: put in there, I shouldn't have put in there. But
Speaker 3: I just really really want to see this guy caught.
Speaker 3: The people I worked with in the last three years
Speaker 3: probably poured them and died. I rapidly, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: right up there almost as those as they are. The
Speaker 3: ones who win are eve older. I guess, so I
Speaker 3: pretty much get done. Somebody kissed this pastor let me
Speaker 3: know who he is. But the one favor I want
Speaker 3: when they arrest him. I want to be there when
Speaker 3: they put the handcuffs on. I want to test them
Speaker 3: to see if they're a good This is yeah.
Speaker 8: Absolutely. I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 8: on and talking about this. If people were to want
Speaker 8: to contact you, do you have a website or Facebook
Speaker 8: or how would they personally contact you?
Speaker 3: They would?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 8: So can I can messages come through this program? I
Speaker 8: mean I do have a blog that they could answer.
Speaker 8: I ask questions, I could refer them to you. I
Speaker 8: could forward them to you.
Speaker 4: I'd like. We've had a couple of calls this evening already.
Speaker 8: I don't have that as as I told you the
Speaker 8: component of the program, But if if they were so inclined,
Speaker 8: could I forward messages to you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I have one thing I can add for you.
Speaker 3: Somebody several people can say what I admit when I
Speaker 3: said the guy probably behind our house didn't that's seventy
Speaker 3: years old. So many people think that the stay a
Speaker 3: rapist today is seventy years or more. The guy I
Speaker 3: saw back there was I don't know how old he was.
Speaker 3: If I make a while, I guess i'd say fifty
Speaker 3: sixty down stay a rapist, I just make it. Really,
Speaker 3: I just worsered Rome. He definitely was not cold enough
Speaker 3: to be what the year they're thinking about. If you
Speaker 3: go back and look at some of those age descriptions,
Speaker 3: I think eight hay ninety years old today. Right the
Speaker 3: guys alive, do.
Speaker 8: You I know that you probably contacted or that was
Speaker 8: offered some kind of FBI criminal profiling over the years.
Speaker 8: Did they recommend any way, any method, any technique that
Speaker 8: they thought might work to get this guy to resurface
Speaker 8: on his own or to contact authorities, not.
Speaker 4: That I know of.
Speaker 3: I have no doubt he probably has. He's tryed to
Speaker 3: on these message boards, posting or something like that. The
Speaker 3: one thing I just learned about and the guy. What
Speaker 3: are the people they have to relies on for these profiles.
Speaker 3: I guess if you look at the map in Sacramento
Speaker 3: of that area and really roughly drawn, just start over
Speaker 3: like wood park Way, that that's fifth one I was
Speaker 3: on at Park swings around through Cordova and heads west
Speaker 3: down to lot Riviera. Right in the middle of all
Speaker 3: that near Coil Avenue. Coil sem One Avenue was the
Speaker 3: Mercy Samuin Hospital. There's a big area there and he
Speaker 3: never struck in there, no prowling or anything in there. Well,
Speaker 3: that was what other thing I didn't We just learned
Speaker 3: recently to take Clark to homicide and sacramental figuring this out.
Speaker 3: I knew the guy prowled day and night. It seemed like,
Speaker 3: you know, he was always out there. But he might
Speaker 3: prowl a tonight. Come on, he goes there, you'd be
Speaker 3: the next night. C he goes back there and does assault,
Speaker 3: and they think goes there were the d We did
Speaker 3: it every night, and I don't know, but he didn't
Speaker 3: prowl the same area every night. And sometimes he did,
Speaker 3: sometimes he didn't. He just didn't have that much continuity.
Speaker 3: But he did bounce around, and I'm pretty sure I
Speaker 3: know how I picked some of his sickness.
Speaker 8: Incredible the work that this must have drove you around
Speaker 8: a bend and reduced your sleep and relaxation.
Speaker 4: I know. It's just I felt a little bit.
Speaker 8: Just reading the book because again, like everyone becomes a
Speaker 8: slew so I can imagine the actual sleuth to yourself
Speaker 8: working this for so many years, again not saying drive
Speaker 8: it driven you nuts, because obviously you're here and you're saying,
Speaker 8: but again, there must have been many, many and sleepless
Speaker 8: nights and I and I hope that somehow somewhere you
Speaker 8: can get that dream come true. And I think it
Speaker 8: would be a dream for a lot of people, including
Speaker 8: some of the victims and their loved ones. So it
Speaker 8: would be a great happy ending to a very very
Speaker 8: tragic story.
Speaker 3: Really, really, when they transferred me out, I wasn't really
Speaker 3: that upset because I'd done what I could. You know,
Speaker 3: I was blocked a lot of things they're trying to
Speaker 3: do and other stuff just because it just didn't work.
Speaker 3: And I took any It was two and a half
Speaker 3: months off, and then I could have gone back and
Speaker 3: done it, but I went somewhere else.
Speaker 8: It's fascinating to sorry, go ahead, I would great.
Speaker 4: I wanted to.
Speaker 8: Say, for those that are listening to this is the
Speaker 8: kind of book that I might self really really enjoyed
Speaker 8: because it's as a true crime reader, there is the
Speaker 8: formulaic true crime. There is very many great writers that
Speaker 8: do some add some fictional aspects to it, like dialogue
Speaker 8: that they couldn't of course been privy to at all.
Speaker 4: Lots of great authors have access to.
Speaker 8: All the players, including the prosecution and even the killer themselves.
Speaker 8: Very fascinating, but this book is for the kind of
Speaker 8: true crime reader that well I've had listening to programs
Speaker 8: about the actual detectives in the actual investigations and what
Speaker 8: they have done and what they have seen and what
Speaker 8: they've experienced. In your book is the ultimate in that
Speaker 8: you find out exactly how you felt, what you did,
Speaker 8: how other people felt. And it is a bygone time
Speaker 8: where a past time where technology wasn't there, intercommunication between
Speaker 8: departments wasn't there. The idea that you understood serial killers
Speaker 8: was of course not well known.
Speaker 3: At that time.
Speaker 4: That information was not people didn't know about it.
Speaker 8: So it is a bygone time, a time where these
Speaker 8: rapists and killers enjoyed some impunity just because of the
Speaker 8: time and lack of experience by authorities. Uh. It's a
Speaker 8: fascinating book, and I want to thank you very much
Speaker 8: for coming on and talking a little bit about hunting
Speaker 8: a psychopath, the East Area Rapist original Nightstalker investigation.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much for coming on.
Speaker 8: Detective Richard Shelby did some good well I'm sure we'll
Speaker 8: get some responses and I will forward them to you.
Speaker 4: I guess.
Speaker 8: Otherwise people should just contact the Sacramento Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 3: Yes, Protective Clark is what it works in between homicides.
Speaker 3: He worked, okay, well, very good, very good.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much, Richard.
Speaker 8: And you have yourself a great eating and I hope
Speaker 8: something really good can come as a result of this
Speaker 8: interview in your book.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, thank you, good night.
Speaker 5: As