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<v Speaker 1>Get ready.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, August twenty seven, twenty twenty five, allegedly, according to

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<v Speaker 2>that thing we call a calendar and whatever might pop

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<v Speaker 2>up on your computer, it is Wednesday, and it's the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of the week, and I'm glad to have Larry

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<v Speaker 2>Hancock with me. Now I did want Larry last week,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was busy, and besides, things were crazy, So

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<v Speaker 2>things happen anyway. Larry. Of course, if you go to

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<v Speaker 2>Larrydshancock dot com you can check out his blog. There

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<v Speaker 2>will be links in the show notes to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to follow up on that, and god knows what else.

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<v Speaker 2>Because we're having a different sort of discussion tonight, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>begin it like this. The Kennedy Center. I noticed there's

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<v Speaker 2>some goings on over there, And look, I don't care

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<v Speaker 2>about your politics, but you would think that when you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about the forming arts, and that's what the center

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<v Speaker 2>is for, that that's what they would be concerned with,

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<v Speaker 2>not the politics of whatever, except maybe the politics of

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<v Speaker 2>performing arts, which there are politics seemingly in everything. But

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<v Speaker 2>does that count for maintaining the integrity of an institution?

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<v Speaker 2>Now I bring up the Kennedy Center because well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>anything that hasn named Kennedy and it catches my attention. Duh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just the way it works. But also because I

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<v Speaker 2>have a reverence for art, but I also have a

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<v Speaker 2>reverence for history, and I recognize the need for museums.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know the type of people that undermine, destroy, restrict,

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<v Speaker 2>and remove museums from a landscape. It's because they don't

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<v Speaker 2>want the truth of history told, because they want to

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<v Speaker 2>give you their version of it. Now, we all know

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<v Speaker 2>that thector does write the history. After all, the defeated

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<v Speaker 2>don't often have the ability to record their side of

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<v Speaker 2>the story. But if one takes in the whole of

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<v Speaker 2>a historical situation, they might be able to learn about

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<v Speaker 2>the vanquished, the defeated, the oppressed, and etc. In some ways,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe through the lens of the victor, because the victor

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<v Speaker 2>survives long enough to put up the institution and present

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<v Speaker 2>it as something educational. And believe me, education goes on

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<v Speaker 2>all the time, whether it's I think a new term

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<v Speaker 2>should be miseducation instead of you know, like there's information,

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<v Speaker 2>there's misinformation, there's education, there's mis education. Well, maybe there's

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<v Speaker 2>a better term for that, And I'm sure Larry Hancock

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<v Speaker 2>can help me out with it, because that's part of

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<v Speaker 2>what we're going to talk about tonight. Why well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the pinnacles in my mind whole life. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's even part of our language to bring up certain

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<v Speaker 2>institutions as the place, the one place where you know

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<v Speaker 2>this or that is going on, like dishonesty. You know

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<v Speaker 2>that's DC. I mean, that's all there is to it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, corrupt cops. A lot of people would think

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<v Speaker 2>la first, but I mean it's just the way of things.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes it into the lexicon because it has a

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<v Speaker 2>basis in reality. And I don't know, I've always thought

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<v Speaker 2>of a place like the Smithsonian as one of those

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<v Speaker 2>places that's above the fray, that's above the ever changing.

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<v Speaker 2>It needs a new face once in a while, but

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<v Speaker 2>the information that's retained in it should only be added

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<v Speaker 2>to as new discoveries are made. Sure, But is it

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<v Speaker 2>being politicized? Is it being manipulated for people's comfort? Is

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<v Speaker 2>it being up? And I've watched that happen a lot

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to JFK stuff, et cetera. And Larry,

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<v Speaker 2>I bet you've seen it a whole lot more in

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<v Speaker 2>the JFK world. When people make adjustments and sometimes you

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<v Speaker 2>see adjustments because new information came into existence, and other

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<v Speaker 2>times you see adjustments being made because well it's convenient,

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<v Speaker 2>or it fits their new movie, or it fits their

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<v Speaker 2>new book, or it goes along with something prescribed in

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<v Speaker 2>one way or another. Think about when something is prescribed, right,

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<v Speaker 2>if you scribe, what are you doing? You're writing, or

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<v Speaker 2>you're accounting for recording. And if you do it ahead

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<v Speaker 2>of time, you did it ahead of time. Anyway, all

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<v Speaker 2>of that strange rant to introduce Larry Ancock and to

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<v Speaker 2>give you a vague idea about what we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>discuss tonight. First though, Larry, how you doing.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing good, Chuck. We've had a little coal front.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm through. We've had some rain so on Oklahoma. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a lot better August than it has been, kind of

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<v Speaker 3>a precursor to fall. Not quite an early fall yet,

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<v Speaker 3>but this time of the year when it can be

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred and ten, having it be in the seventies

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<v Speaker 3>for a day or so makes everybody a lot, puts

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<v Speaker 3>them in a better humor. So I'm good.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, look two days here in the extremely hot

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<v Speaker 2>and sweaty southeast and tell you the truth. It well,

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<v Speaker 2>it eased up a bit past couple of days only,

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<v Speaker 2>which I was surprised at because August is usually nothing

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<v Speaker 2>but brutal here. But look, changing weather is one thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and changing people and indeed generations go by. But certain

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<v Speaker 2>things do stand, you know for a while. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know, our country isn't that old, but certain institutions

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, they seem to be outside of the

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<v Speaker 2>winds of change can be changed by, like I said,

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<v Speaker 2>new information, new discoveries, new methodologies, et cetera. And I

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<v Speaker 2>always think of certain places as repositories of that information.

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<v Speaker 2>The Library of Congress is another great example, right, isn't

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<v Speaker 2>that like the largest collection of literature on the planet

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<v Speaker 2>except for what we don't know about in the battles

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<v Speaker 2>of the Vatican. Really, I mean, you know, here we go.

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<v Speaker 2>These should be prideful things because of their well, their

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<v Speaker 2>educational value. That has nothing to do with who's in charge,

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<v Speaker 2>who got voted for, what the current trends are, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Or am I just crazy? I mean, is this just

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of those I don't understand the culture

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<v Speaker 2>and the meaning of tradition, et cetera. I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>something to be said for that, but what are your

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts on that?

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<v Speaker 3>And you've got to put a stake in the ground

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<v Speaker 3>in some areas. It's just like an example would be

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<v Speaker 3>if you're going to be using statistics and metrics on

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<v Speaker 3>the economy, there's got to be a stake in the

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<v Speaker 3>ground that says that's outside the political process because political

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<v Speaker 3>decisions will be made on it. So it's got to

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<v Speaker 3>be done outside of political control. If you put statistics

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<v Speaker 3>in charge of a particular party or particular administration, you're

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<v Speaker 3>looking at grave consequences down the road. So data, i'd say,

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<v Speaker 3>that's one place where you've got to put a stake

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<v Speaker 3>in a ground. You can't. You've got to collect data

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<v Speaker 3>in a neutral fashion, which quite frankly, is what science

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<v Speaker 3>is all about. And although I'm not a fan of

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of things that go on in academity academia,

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<v Speaker 3>data integrity is one thing you know that's that's required

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<v Speaker 3>for science, and it's required for vision making, decision making,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's one place you've got to put a stake

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<v Speaker 3>in the ground. The other place you got to put

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<v Speaker 3>a stake in the ground is for history. You have

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<v Speaker 3>to put a stake in the ground because you're going

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<v Speaker 3>to be making decisions for the future based on what

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<v Speaker 3>you see in the past. But if you start rewriting

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<v Speaker 3>that history, if you start spinning it for political purposes,

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<v Speaker 3>then your decisions will go bad too. So Jack I say,

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<v Speaker 3>my first response is institutionally as a country, as a nation,

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<v Speaker 3>or as any group quite frankly doesn't even have to

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<v Speaker 3>be at that level. If you can't put a stake

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<v Speaker 3>in ground for your data collection, and you can't put

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<v Speaker 3>a stake in the ground for your history, you're going

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<v Speaker 3>to start making mistakes and you're going to pay for them.

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<v Speaker 3>And if that sounds hard nosed, well, yep, that's what

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<v Speaker 3>it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, some people would say, Larry that look, not everything's

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<v Speaker 2>so black and white with this, because there are focuses,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's true. There are focal points. There are things

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<v Speaker 2>that are made more important. You know, we don't preserve

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<v Speaker 2>the poetry from everyone who writes a poem, right, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't preserve the history of oh, I don't know the

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<v Speaker 2>papers of every person who was like a member of

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<v Speaker 2>the town council. Necessarily, there's a level of importance, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a level of impact where we have to preserve, say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, presidential papers because they are an important figure

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<v Speaker 2>in the government, in policy, in culture, in the reality

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<v Speaker 2>as it's being shaped. That's an important figure. This is

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<v Speaker 2>why you're supposed to retain all the presidential papers, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>they are, right, stuff like this, So is there a

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<v Speaker 2>priority in collection that is maybe really the argument that

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<v Speaker 2>some people are trying to make or are they just

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<v Speaker 2>doing what they do with everything nowadays? And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we went from f your feelings to whatever your feelings are,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what reality is, which is kind of a strange

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<v Speaker 2>twist because I thought that was the liberal thing to do,

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<v Speaker 2>but now it's not. It doesn't matter liberal conservative. When

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<v Speaker 2>people get power, they seem to behave differently than when

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<v Speaker 2>they were the minority. And this is why it's so

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<v Speaker 2>difficult and so necessary to have a neutral gathering place

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<v Speaker 2>where you say, look, maybe the liberals papers aren't important,

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<v Speaker 2>but the conservatives are, or the conservatives papers are just stupid.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we need to go with the progressive stuff

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<v Speaker 2>and save that. The priority here is not about that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about there is a way to set priorities here.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's not about your feelings. It's not about what

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<v Speaker 2>you like, it's not about the persuasion you prefer is it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a matter and this really, it really doesn't need

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<v Speaker 3>to be a batter debate. It's been established over and

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<v Speaker 3>over again that there are a set of best practices

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<v Speaker 3>and those really are beyond debate. I mean thousands of

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<v Speaker 3>hours of headswead have gone into determining what best practices

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<v Speaker 3>should be in data collection. As I mentioned, that's where

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<v Speaker 3>i'd set one of my mistakes. You know, you collect

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<v Speaker 3>data in a certain way for it to be considered credible.

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<v Speaker 3>If you don't follow those sorts of best practices, then

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<v Speaker 3>it's not credible, it's not reliable. It has to do

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<v Speaker 3>with how you collect it, how you vet your sources.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's pretty well laid out by this point in time.

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<v Speaker 3>You know that's been done enough with enough critique to

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<v Speaker 3>know what works and what doesn't work because it can

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<v Speaker 3>be judged like if we follow these practices, we know

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<v Speaker 3>we get good data because the data allows us to

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<v Speaker 3>make good decision. It works same thing in history. Again,

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<v Speaker 3>there's no big surprise here. There best practices in history.

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<v Speaker 3>You can go to a graduate history history class and

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<v Speaker 3>go through them, and it's a matter. One simple rule

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<v Speaker 3>is primary sources You always use primary sources. If we

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<v Speaker 3>were talking about slavery, slavery at the Smithsonian, I don't

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<v Speaker 3>care who what anybody now thinks. What did these slaves

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<v Speaker 3>think about it? We have lots of collections of verbal collections,

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<v Speaker 3>and we have written collections from them. What did they

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<v Speaker 3>think about it? How did they feel about it? What

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<v Speaker 3>did they feel about the practices? What did these slave

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<v Speaker 3>owners feel about the practices. That's the way you present

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<v Speaker 3>the history of slavery well. And you don't get to

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<v Speaker 3>make the call whether it's good or bad. It was

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<v Speaker 3>their decision as to whether it was good or bad.

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<v Speaker 3>You don't get to reverse engine hear that, well.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, And here's where I'm going to take a swipe at,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the liberal popular positions from recently,

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<v Speaker 2>and why it needs to be swiped at. When you

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<v Speaker 2>look at slavery, Yeah, you can't just turn your head

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<v Speaker 2>away because you find it repugnant. You need to look

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<v Speaker 2>at the business of it. Indeed, you need to look

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<v Speaker 2>at what those practices were, What kind of paperwork needed

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<v Speaker 2>to be kept, what were the prices, what drove the market?

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<v Speaker 2>All of these things are relevant to the way that

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<v Speaker 2>practice was conducted. You might not like it. You might

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<v Speaker 2>not want to look at how much was a human

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<v Speaker 2>being worth and why, but it was a reality. So

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<v Speaker 2>it needs to be examined and we need to understand it,

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<v Speaker 2>I think fully and thoroughly. And yeah, I did just

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<v Speaker 2>boil it down to what about the business practices because

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<v Speaker 2>that is highly relevant in the history. Or am I

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<v Speaker 2>you know? Am I just blowing smoke about this or

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<v Speaker 2>what it is?

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<v Speaker 3>And that's why you need to look at what the

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<v Speaker 3>people said about it. And I'll give a very painful

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<v Speaker 3>example from my personal history that deals with what you

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<v Speaker 3>just described, Chuck. I had relatives living in Texas at

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<v Speaker 3>the time of the Civil War who were slave owners.

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<v Speaker 3>I have letters that they wrote. One of those letters

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<v Speaker 3>is from one of them who was in the Confederate

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<v Speaker 3>Army who wrote back and said, we're going to lose

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<v Speaker 3>you need to sell the slaves. And the slaves were

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<v Speaker 3>sold not too long after that. And this is all

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<v Speaker 3>in a series of correspondents. The slaves were sold, but

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<v Speaker 3>not too long after the end of the war, they

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<v Speaker 3>were back as individuals, as freemen. Okay, they could come

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<v Speaker 3>or go at their own will. So we've had a

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<v Speaker 3>big change in morality A big change in you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the personal side of the equation. But those same individuals

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<v Speaker 3>were back working for my relatives as freemen. They could

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<v Speaker 3>make their own decision, and their own decision had been okay,

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<v Speaker 3>I was okay working for these people. I'm freed, I

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<v Speaker 3>need a job. I'm going to go back to work

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<v Speaker 3>for them. So that melds together the equation of the

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<v Speaker 3>reality of making a living with the sea change that

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<v Speaker 3>really occurred. They made the decision to go back, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's the one of the big things that

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<v Speaker 3>you you miss if you don't get down deep in

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<v Speaker 3>the reality of the situation. It was their morals and

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00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.480
<v Speaker 3>their ethics, but there the big change was before they

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<v Speaker 3>had no free will, they were slaves. Afterwards they put

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<v Speaker 3>themselves back in the same situation of their own free will.

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<v Speaker 3>And that that kind of package is the whole thing

249
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<v Speaker 3>for you. It tells you that you know it was.

250
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<v Speaker 3>It was certainly bad when they didn't have free will,

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<v Speaker 3>but the economics of the situation and the relationship they

252
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<v Speaker 3>had made that the place they went preferred to go

253
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<v Speaker 3>get a job afterwards, and they got paid differently than

254
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<v Speaker 3>they had been before. So it's it's a complex thing.

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<v Speaker 3>But I would that's where I submit. It's not my

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<v Speaker 3>call on that. I can't. If I did not have

257
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<v Speaker 3>that correspondence that relates that story, I probably have a

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<v Speaker 3>different impression with Wolf's what was going on at the

259
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<v Speaker 3>end of the Civil.

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<v Speaker 2>War, all right, And Texas is immensely a dynamic and

261
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:33.759
<v Speaker 2>complex in that story, because look, there's a reason why

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<v Speaker 2>there's one star on the flag of Texas, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>because it was the Republic of Texas at one point.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, and now I may be rusty on my

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<v Speaker 2>Civil War history here a little bit, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>there was a certain point at which Texas wasn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>committed to one side or the other. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>they were part of the first people that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>joined the the secession, if you will, And that may

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<v Speaker 2>have been for a variety of factors, and all of

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00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.799
<v Speaker 2>that dynamic needs to be recognized here. When did Texas

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00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.680
<v Speaker 2>actually enter into the Confederacy? Not everybody decided on one day,

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<v Speaker 2>even though there was, you know, that circumstance, and that

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00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.359
<v Speaker 2>changed things in the reality of the people you're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about in your own personal history. If the state of

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00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.559
<v Speaker 2>Texas was in was in they were in. If they

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00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.200
<v Speaker 2>weren't going to be in. They weren't going to be

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<v Speaker 2>in And there were even you know, slaves being held

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00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:35.119
<v Speaker 2>in other places that didn't necessarily join right away in

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<v Speaker 2>the Civil War and quotes right in exactly the same fashion,

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00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.559
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't necessarily homogeneous clean action that occurred all on

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<v Speaker 2>one day.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's it wasn't homogeneous between North and South either, right.

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<v Speaker 3>If you really look at the history at the times,

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<v Speaker 3>you find you find a lot of opposition to slave

286
00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.079
<v Speaker 3>holding in the North, but a lot of you know,

287
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:04.960
<v Speaker 3>just the opposite. There were strong contingents in the Midwest.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually during the war, the South was successful and in

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00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.000
<v Speaker 3>a lot of sabotage operations because they had supporters in

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<v Speaker 3>the Midwest, in Illinois, in Indiana, in New York City. Right,

291
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:25.640
<v Speaker 3>things were the things that were imposed on the Northern States.

292
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.799
<v Speaker 3>We were very strong from a security standpoint, a lot

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00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.039
<v Speaker 3>of a lot of pretty brutal methods going on because

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00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.599
<v Speaker 3>there was support. But of course the same as due

295
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:41.359
<v Speaker 3>in the South. You know, Texans being pretty independent, were

296
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.240
<v Speaker 3>not necessarily all for just jumping into the game on

297
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:49.119
<v Speaker 3>anybody side. So you know, it's a complex story. But

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<v Speaker 3>back to the point I mean, you can't. You need

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00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:57.640
<v Speaker 3>doing historical practices that you don't get into the complexity

300
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.559
<v Speaker 3>of the situation and you don't see it correctly. You can't.

301
00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.119
<v Speaker 3>You can't overwrite it. You have to look at the

302
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.319
<v Speaker 3>primary sources. What were those people saying. And that's where

303
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.559
<v Speaker 3>I get back to the argument about how it's being presented.

304
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.960
<v Speaker 3>It's not my call as to how it's being presented.

305
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.279
<v Speaker 3>Is is their story being presented? Is there is their

306
00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:27.119
<v Speaker 3>story being presented in full and equitably and without anybody

307
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.279
<v Speaker 3>making it match how they want it to read. You know,

308
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:35.799
<v Speaker 3>your displays should be real. It should be real photographs,

309
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.359
<v Speaker 3>real letters, real audible interviews. We have a lot there's

310
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:45.240
<v Speaker 3>a large amount of anthropology that's been done in this

311
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:50.119
<v Speaker 3>country over the over the centuries, actually with the indigenous

312
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.720
<v Speaker 3>Americans to capture their side of the story, with with

313
00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.200
<v Speaker 3>the slaves. You know, that's what needs that's the history.

314
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:05.279
<v Speaker 3>So my call of anybody going there is a pitchmark.

315
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:09.440
<v Speaker 3>It is not to get back to what you were

316
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.240
<v Speaker 3>saying earlier. I can look at it and say are

317
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:16.519
<v Speaker 3>you following the best practices or are you not liberal conservative?

318
00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:18.880
<v Speaker 3>Whatever you want to be. I can say, are you

319
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.640
<v Speaker 3>following the correct practices to tell the story in a

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00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.200
<v Speaker 3>neutral historical fashion.

321
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<v Speaker 2>Well because otherwise, look, if you leave it to the

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00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:35.319
<v Speaker 2>narrative devices of people that are going to be influenced

323
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:41.039
<v Speaker 2>by only their own perspective. You know, you could turn

324
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>around and say, you know, my family had these people

325
00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:48.559
<v Speaker 2>that they fed and clothed, you know, without charging them

326
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:53.720
<v Speaker 2>any money in exchange for a bit of help, you know,

327
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.720
<v Speaker 2>doing whatever it was they were doing, And you could

328
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.359
<v Speaker 2>turn it into that, and you end up with a

329
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.680
<v Speaker 2>tone def a statement like oh it was like job training,

330
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, and we will that the politics.

331
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<v Speaker 3>They needed work and I helped them out. Yeah, okay,

332
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.079
<v Speaker 3>they just couldn't leave when they wanted to. It's kind

333
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.799
<v Speaker 3>of like indentures. Right, It's amazing to me that we

334
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:21.880
<v Speaker 3>missed the whole point. An indentured servitude gets down to

335
00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.079
<v Speaker 3>the point with like, I'm always stunned by the fact

336
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.640
<v Speaker 3>that did you folks realize that Benjamin Franklin escaped from

337
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:33.799
<v Speaker 3>his indentured servitude. He left and stole away. And you

338
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.920
<v Speaker 3>know this is Benjamin Franklin, right, because he was financially enslaved.

339
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.480
<v Speaker 3>He could not leave that job. But yeah he did

340
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.640
<v Speaker 3>and he got a ship in the darken night to

341
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:45.240
<v Speaker 3>a different colony.

342
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<v Speaker 2>Right, which almost exactly is. And there were rules, by

343
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<v Speaker 2>the way, this is another thing. There were rules in

344
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.400
<v Speaker 2>different places, and they called them, you know, the code

345
00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.599
<v Speaker 2>Noir in some places right where there were standards by

346
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.079
<v Speaker 2>which you were supposed to handle your slaves, just like

347
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I hate to put it this way,

348
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.000
<v Speaker 2>but there are standards by which you're supposed to handle

349
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.000
<v Speaker 2>your livestock. There are standards by which you're supposed to

350
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.599
<v Speaker 2>handle other things, and even if they were five eighths

351
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.359
<v Speaker 2>of a human being and everything. Look, I'm kicking a

352
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.559
<v Speaker 2>lot of emotional tires here, I know I am. But

353
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.559
<v Speaker 2>the point is all of them need to be recorded

354
00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:31.799
<v Speaker 2>because that gives you a sense of the actual transactions

355
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 2>and institution that it was. Right. I mean, you picked this, okay,

356
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.519
<v Speaker 2>and you picked one of the hardest things to have

357
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to be honest about and be objective about. When recording everything,

358
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.440
<v Speaker 2>you got to record it all, and yes, that includes

359
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:55.119
<v Speaker 2>recording the brutality, the dehumanization, et cetera, all of it,

360
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.359
<v Speaker 2>all of it. That's how you're ever going to have

361
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:04.799
<v Speaker 2>a chance to be able to examine that history correctly

362
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>or am I missing your point now?

363
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.319
<v Speaker 3>And you I think you're making a good point there,

364
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.160
<v Speaker 3>because you've got it's got to be the full history, right,

365
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.039
<v Speaker 3>it can't just be a slice of the history. And

366
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.279
<v Speaker 3>you know, we talked about this earlier and this you know,

367
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.640
<v Speaker 3>it's it's not that this is Yeah, there's a real

368
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.400
<v Speaker 3>problem with how we present this in our national institutions,

369
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:32.599
<v Speaker 3>because our national institutions really should be above political control.

370
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<v Speaker 3>Anybody that thinks differently, I'm sorry, I disagree. You know,

371
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:39.640
<v Speaker 3>you've got to have if you're going to be a

372
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.599
<v Speaker 3>democratic nation, you've got to have someplace where you draw

373
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.079
<v Speaker 3>the line over political control. But this, this does impinge

374
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:49.519
<v Speaker 3>even on the work that we do in our research.

375
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<v Speaker 3>And I think I mentioned this earlier, Chuck, and that

376
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.480
<v Speaker 3>that's that's one of the things that we we run

377
00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.279
<v Speaker 3>into in our research of conspiracies and and and things

378
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:06.079
<v Speaker 3>get really complicated, is where you only you took the

379
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.680
<v Speaker 3>view that somebody else had expressed. And I'm going to

380
00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 3>go ahead and relate what I've just been through. Everybody

381
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.799
<v Speaker 3>that's listening this probably knows that David Boylan and I

382
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.559
<v Speaker 3>have recently published a book on only Harvey Oswald. And

383
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:24.359
<v Speaker 3>I've had to recant in several areas where I took

384
00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:28.240
<v Speaker 3>other people's words for it, who I thought had trusted,

385
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:32.279
<v Speaker 3>you know, and found out later that maybe they didn't

386
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.720
<v Speaker 3>have the full picture. We have a fuller picture now,

387
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.119
<v Speaker 3>So some of my views have changed. And sometimes you

388
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.640
<v Speaker 3>need to post a notice that says, oh, by the way,

389
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.880
<v Speaker 3>you know what was up here. You know ten years

390
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.480
<v Speaker 3>ago we changed. Don't be shocked. Here's why we changed it,

391
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, because we found something new. Yeah, that could

392
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.720
<v Speaker 3>be rather innocent, like renaming a dinosaur, or it could

393
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.839
<v Speaker 3>be something more sensational about it. We found a skeleton

394
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.759
<v Speaker 3>for President's closet. And okay, we need to tell this

395
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.880
<v Speaker 3>part of the story. But in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald,

396
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:10.920
<v Speaker 3>I had written there'd been a letter that Lee Harvey

397
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 3>Oswald had written to the Communist Party USA in the

398
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.400
<v Speaker 3>summer of nineteen sixty three, and in part of that letter,

399
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.640
<v Speaker 3>in a couple of sentences, he talks about asking for

400
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 3>vice this when he if he should go underground. Now

401
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:29.759
<v Speaker 3>that's a pretty pretty strong thing, you know, and can

402
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:35.440
<v Speaker 3>be easily sensationalized if you just took that part of it, Okay,

403
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:38.759
<v Speaker 3>which I did, because that suggests a lot of different

404
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.480
<v Speaker 3>things that might be going on. When I got a

405
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:48.640
<v Speaker 3>chance to read the fully redacted and released letter recently unreducted, sorry,

406
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:53.319
<v Speaker 3>unredacted letter recently, it's a different story. And what the

407
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:57.160
<v Speaker 3>full story is that Lee Harvey Oswald had been after

408
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.599
<v Speaker 3>he had done his leaf living and his ro tests

409
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.279
<v Speaker 3>for Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, he'd

410
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.119
<v Speaker 3>been on the radio in a debate and really gotten

411
00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:12.319
<v Speaker 3>pretty well trashed in the debate because they surprised him

412
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:14.839
<v Speaker 3>and pulled out the fact that he had been in

413
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.720
<v Speaker 3>the Soviet Union, he had said bad things about the

414
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:22.680
<v Speaker 3>United States, he married a Russian wife, he believed in Marxism.

415
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.039
<v Speaker 3>He wanted to talk about Castro and the success of

416
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:31.000
<v Speaker 3>Cuban Revolution, the social progress in Cuba, and they blindsided

417
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:36.279
<v Speaker 3>with him with that, and it really really was a

418
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.240
<v Speaker 3>pretty He did is pretty well with it, but the

419
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 3>problem is the people that were debating really cast a

420
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:46.160
<v Speaker 3>lot of doubt on him and the Fair Play for

421
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:51.000
<v Speaker 3>Cuba Committee because of his association with it. Right in

422
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:52.079
<v Speaker 3>this letter, he is.

423
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, really quickly though, I would say that even

424
00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.240
<v Speaker 2>you have to parse this out further because ed Butler

425
00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:02.039
<v Speaker 2>did an interview with him that radio show called Latin

426
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Listening Post, and that interview was not as confrontational as

427
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:13.160
<v Speaker 2>the later what was it, conversation carte blanche they called it,

428
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:18.079
<v Speaker 2>I believe, which included Berengere, you know, the Ed Butler

429
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.200
<v Speaker 2>one on one pretty much let Oswald set out some

430
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.640
<v Speaker 2>things without being challenged too much. Butler was.

431
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:30.480
<v Speaker 3>Kind of set him up for the second one. It's

432
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.480
<v Speaker 3>kind of like, well, that wasn't bad, Let's go on

433
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.920
<v Speaker 3>this the next show, and then wham right.

434
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.640
<v Speaker 2>But that was My point is that literally, you need

435
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.880
<v Speaker 2>to examine both of those things separately. And somebody might

436
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.480
<v Speaker 2>have just heard you put them both together and say

437
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.039
<v Speaker 2>that they were okay, But yeah, see what I mean,

438
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.400
<v Speaker 2>you got to look at both of these things separately.

439
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying this to you, Larry, you know this,

440
00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.440
<v Speaker 2>but I mean my point is that you take a

441
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.640
<v Speaker 2>look at the Ed Butler. You listen to it yourself.

442
00:27:57.720 --> 00:27:59.880
<v Speaker 2>I've listened to it, I don't know how many times.

443
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.559
<v Speaker 2>But the point is that it's not very confrontational. It

444
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.039
<v Speaker 2>appears as though, yeah, that's what it sounds like, he's

445
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:09.480
<v Speaker 2>being set up. But either way, if you don't want

446
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:12.079
<v Speaker 2>to talk about the intent. What you can say is

447
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:15.039
<v Speaker 2>that his points of view were not challenged Bill and

448
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.799
<v Speaker 2>Gehre was added to the next interview, and he was

449
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.759
<v Speaker 2>used as a foil while the interviewer was also challenging him.

450
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:28.599
<v Speaker 2>So literally, he was being challenged from two different directions.

451
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.079
<v Speaker 2>In the next interview, that is a completely different conversational

452
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.839
<v Speaker 2>dynamic where he trips over himself. He says, Oh, I'm

453
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.880
<v Speaker 2>not a Communist, but I'm a Marxist lendedness, and they

454
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.319
<v Speaker 2>ask him what that means, and he goes into a

455
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.039
<v Speaker 2>thing about well, they make so many TVs here and

456
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.400
<v Speaker 2>so many people have so many phones there, and it

457
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.680
<v Speaker 2>just it becomes this convoluted mess because he does not

458
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.319
<v Speaker 2>know how to defend himself. He was blindsided by it,

459
00:28:55.400 --> 00:29:00.759
<v Speaker 2>like you said, obviously, and was that the point of it? Well,

460
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>here we go. You have to examine the history and

461
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.440
<v Speaker 2>now take a look at what he does afterwards. And

462
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:09.519
<v Speaker 2>it happens to be this letter, which was always represented

463
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.160
<v Speaker 2>as very strange because Oswald did not have, as far

464
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.680
<v Speaker 2>as we know, an official you know, membership with the

465
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Communist Party of the United States, right, he did not

466
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 2>have an official membership with the fair Play for Cuba

467
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Committee either, Right, So all of these things need to

468
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.119
<v Speaker 2>be mentioned and need to be understood when you're examining

469
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:37.319
<v Speaker 2>just this particular piece of correspondence and what inspired it

470
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.960
<v Speaker 2>or what it came before it. Right, So I'm just

471
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.400
<v Speaker 2>saying for the purposes of context, like you do for

472
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.799
<v Speaker 2>me all the time. Isn't that correct? Oh?

473
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.920
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? And when you understand that he had just had

474
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:54.799
<v Speaker 3>he had felt good about himself and what he was

475
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:58.200
<v Speaker 3>doing after that first radio show, as you say, and

476
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:02.200
<v Speaker 3>then he came out the second one shell shocked, and

477
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:08.960
<v Speaker 3>literally he starts again writing several people Socialist Workers Party CPS,

478
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 3>and he's writing them saying, you know, I'm even thinking

479
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.200
<v Speaker 3>of moving back to your area. Could I volunteer and

480
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.519
<v Speaker 3>work on your paper? Could I help you? You can

481
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.359
<v Speaker 3>see he's kind of going through a trauma. And in

482
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.720
<v Speaker 3>the letter he's literally saying. What he's saying is he

483
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.759
<v Speaker 3>doesn't just say go underground. What he says first is

484
00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:34.160
<v Speaker 3>should I lower my profile? Go underground? Because I realized

485
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.000
<v Speaker 3>that what I'm doing, the way I'm doing it might

486
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.319
<v Speaker 3>actually make the fair Play for Cuba Committee look bad.

487
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.519
<v Speaker 3>You know, he actually says, I'm concerned that people might

488
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:51.039
<v Speaker 3>use me and my background to make the FPCC and

489
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.599
<v Speaker 3>the Cuban Revolution look bad, and I'm not feeling good

490
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:58.519
<v Speaker 3>about that. Should I change the way? Should I change

491
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:03.480
<v Speaker 3>what I'm doing? Which is a totally different interpretation of

492
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.880
<v Speaker 3>what's going on if you have that full context and

493
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.240
<v Speaker 3>the full letter, because he is literally going on to say,

494
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:15.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm looking for advice, which is not the

495
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 3>classic Oswal. Up to that point in time. Oswell always

496
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.400
<v Speaker 3>ran and ran his own game. He's pretty headstrong. But

497
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.799
<v Speaker 3>now he's had to suck it up and realize that

498
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.200
<v Speaker 3>maybe the way he's been doing things isn't maybe he's

499
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:30.960
<v Speaker 3>going to have to make a change, and he's becoming

500
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 3>much more notional at that point in time, which is

501
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.920
<v Speaker 3>really important for understanding Oswal and what happens next. But

502
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 3>I guess back to the point of this story is

503
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:43.920
<v Speaker 3>if you didn't have the context for it, and you

504
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:48.440
<v Speaker 3>don't have the full letter, just quoting oswal Is asking

505
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 3>the Communist Party about going underground makes it a lot

506
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.839
<v Speaker 3>more sensational, a lot more suspicious, a lot more suspect,

507
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.160
<v Speaker 3>which is the way I wrote it up in my book.

508
00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:04.240
<v Speaker 3>And now he needed to take it back and you

509
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.720
<v Speaker 3>need to be honest about that in history, which is

510
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.920
<v Speaker 3>why historians peer review each other. And that's another thing

511
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.200
<v Speaker 3>that I wanted to bring up about putting stakes in

512
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:19.920
<v Speaker 3>the ground. Best practices don't mean even one historian's take

513
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.559
<v Speaker 3>on something. The important thing is to let them beat

514
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:28.400
<v Speaker 3>each other up. See what comes out of it. Get

515
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.759
<v Speaker 3>the historians that know the subject. If you're going to

516
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:35.920
<v Speaker 3>put up something as a not a primary source, but

517
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:39.559
<v Speaker 3>something that's been written about it, and you're doing it

518
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:44.759
<v Speaker 3>in an institution, even in a museum, it needs to

519
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:48.119
<v Speaker 3>give references. It's like for the full story in this,

520
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 3>read this and read this. We have this in the bookstore,

521
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.079
<v Speaker 3>and we have two different versions in the bookstore. Read

522
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 3>them and see what you think. That's the way to

523
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:03.200
<v Speaker 3>go about being institutionally neutral and really truly following best practices.

524
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:06.440
<v Speaker 3>If you just got one book on the subject, or

525
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:11.000
<v Speaker 3>a controversial subject, okay, not do you call a dinosaur

526
00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 3>an aptosaurus or a bronosaurus? Okay, you only have one

527
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:17.480
<v Speaker 3>book there, But if on slavery, you might want to

528
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:20.960
<v Speaker 3>have a couple of different views from professional historians. So

529
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:25.559
<v Speaker 3>back to our larger topic of you know, where do

530
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:27.519
<v Speaker 3>you put your sakes and ground and what do you

531
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 3>do as far as institutional history. You do it the

532
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:34.359
<v Speaker 3>right way. Otherwise you politicize it and you just cut

533
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:35.960
<v Speaker 3>your legs out from under yourself.

534
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, absolutely true. And the other thing that I've noted

535
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:43.839
<v Speaker 2>over the years is sometimes, you know, if you allow

536
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:48.240
<v Speaker 2>ego to be the driving force and only accept the

537
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.759
<v Speaker 2>narrative coming from somebody's ego, that doesn't want to be

538
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:55.119
<v Speaker 2>wrong because then you know, oh, gee, I sold you

539
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>on something. I told you, I had the answers, and

540
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:00.680
<v Speaker 2>now I have to say I'm wrong. There's a serious

541
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:05.240
<v Speaker 2>reluctance about that, but that is part of the process.

542
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.039
<v Speaker 2>People are gonna get things wrong. This is not you know, like, oh,

543
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.079
<v Speaker 2>Larry failed on this. I didn't fail. He just made

544
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.920
<v Speaker 2>an error that needed to be corrected, and quite frankly,

545
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:19.119
<v Speaker 2>is probably kind of happy that it was corrected because

546
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:24.960
<v Speaker 2>now a more accurate assessment can be made. Like, for instance,

547
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:27.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's still weird to me that he's going

548
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.800
<v Speaker 2>to the Communist Party when he doesn't have an affiliation

549
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.320
<v Speaker 2>with them, though, you know, so somebody could say, well,

550
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:37.840
<v Speaker 2>why is he doing that when he's this headstrong guy.

551
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Normally that seems to think he knows better than everybody

552
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:42.400
<v Speaker 2>in there. I mean, if you listen to Ruth Pain

553
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>right and other people that you know did actually have

554
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.079
<v Speaker 2>proximity to him.

555
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:47.559
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

556
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:49.760
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying that Ruth pain is my primary

557
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.559
<v Speaker 2>source on this, but does seem as though the guy

558
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.159
<v Speaker 2>was pretty confident in most of his actions. Now all

559
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.679
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden, we have a written record here of

560
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:04.599
<v Speaker 2>him approaching, you know, people that he doesn't necessarily know personally,

561
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.880
<v Speaker 2>but asking for advice because they might be an authority.

562
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.440
<v Speaker 2>I think the same kind of thing actually happened when

563
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>he asked for John apt to be his lawyer right

564
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:20.639
<v Speaker 2>in Dallas, because it just happened to be an authority

565
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:25.480
<v Speaker 2>figure he knew of. And so now we see a

566
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 2>different aspect where he might reach out to someone that

567
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.800
<v Speaker 2>he believes as an authority, whether he has a personal

568
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.480
<v Speaker 2>interaction with them or not. And we have a different

569
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.599
<v Speaker 2>dynamic emerging here where there might be other pieces of

570
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:41.519
<v Speaker 2>evidence here where he reaches out to somebody who is

571
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:45.760
<v Speaker 2>an authority on things in his mind. Whether that's you know,

572
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the way it should have gotten Yeah, good.

573
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.679
<v Speaker 3>I think it's very important insight, Chuck, because what we

574
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:57.199
<v Speaker 3>do know is that he very He subscribed to and

575
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:02.599
<v Speaker 3>very regularly read the publications from cp US at the

576
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:06.119
<v Speaker 3>Worker and from Socialist Work, so he would read them.

577
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:09.719
<v Speaker 3>He didn't, he didn't. He he wrote back and forth

578
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:13.239
<v Speaker 3>to the Socialist Workers Party more and it had written

579
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:17.840
<v Speaker 3>to young as a young socialist. But the dynamic is

580
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:20.760
<v Speaker 3>usually he would read things. He would read his own

581
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.159
<v Speaker 3>decisions and not ask for a lot of advice. Okay, yeah,

582
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.079
<v Speaker 3>you're absolutely right, as the mor George de Morangehaw would say,

583
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.440
<v Speaker 3>as his friends would say, even to the you know,

584
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.320
<v Speaker 3>he would make up his online based on what he

585
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.920
<v Speaker 3>was reading. But what we see happening in New Orleans

586
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.000
<v Speaker 3>puts him in That's why I said, a much more

587
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:46.440
<v Speaker 3>notional state. He's beginning to question whether everything that he's

588
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:48.440
<v Speaker 3>doing is the right way to go about it. It's

589
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.480
<v Speaker 3>not producing the read and and the other thing that's

590
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 3>coming up, quite frankly is Oswald has never been totally

591
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.280
<v Speaker 3>an island to himself. You know, he he would he

592
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:01.800
<v Speaker 3>likes to if he can find people to talk to

593
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:04.599
<v Speaker 3>that believe the same thing, he will talk to them.

594
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:07.400
<v Speaker 3>In New Orleans, we know he went to address the

595
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:11.519
<v Speaker 3>Jesuit College and that's some very positive feedback and that

596
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:15.719
<v Speaker 3>he liked that. So he will also face the fact

597
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.639
<v Speaker 3>that in New Orleans he's not finding a lot of people.

598
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:22.360
<v Speaker 3>There's no George de Morenshield, there's nobody that can even

599
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.840
<v Speaker 3>accept his progressive notions. So there's there's some reason to

600
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:29.760
<v Speaker 3>think he's looking for a little bit more dialogue with

601
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:32.199
<v Speaker 3>with somebody, which would be a recent kind of like

602
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:34.199
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to go back to the East Coast and

603
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:37.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, actually go to work with these people and

604
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.880
<v Speaker 3>they'll talk to you know, and not throw things at me.

605
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:44.480
<v Speaker 3>So it's he is, he is evolving at that point

606
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.800
<v Speaker 3>in time, and that's a very important thing to pick

607
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.800
<v Speaker 3>up on because we do see sort of a sea change,

608
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:55.440
<v Speaker 3>and that's an oswell and Oswell asking for advice is new.

609
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.280
<v Speaker 2>It's new, it's new, but it's not inconsistent here. And

610
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.519
<v Speaker 2>this is why if you just take what Larry just said, Look,

611
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:09.039
<v Speaker 2>he's being informed. His worldview is being informed by the

612
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>communist publications. Okay, so whatever you want to say, he

613
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:15.960
<v Speaker 2>was regularly reading them as far as we know from

614
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.679
<v Speaker 2>the monitoring of his mail from him holding it up

615
00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 2>in the backyard photos. Whatever you want to say, it

616
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.119
<v Speaker 2>does seem as though his worldview was at least partially

617
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:30.480
<v Speaker 2>informed by these papers, right, So of course that would

618
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.880
<v Speaker 2>make sense that his worldview is informed that way. He

619
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:35.760
<v Speaker 2>thinks that he might have slipped up here a bit.

620
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Let me check with the people who have informed my

621
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:44.159
<v Speaker 2>worldview to see if there's another direction to go. There's

622
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 2>a logic here, Larry, that I'm seeing, you know, just

623
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:51.719
<v Speaker 2>from listening to you. I mean, it actually makes more

624
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 2>sense now when we had just the should I go underground?

625
00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.719
<v Speaker 2>Seems like a rather drastic thing to ask somebody you

626
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:03.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know, you know, I mean, it is a bit much,

627
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:07.639
<v Speaker 2>But we did take it like that for years. We did,

628
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:09.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, the people that wanted to make him the

629
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:14.559
<v Speaker 2>kooki kami, you know, Loan Nut especially love that. You know,

630
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.559
<v Speaker 2>look at him, he's a comedy. He's asking him should

631
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.719
<v Speaker 2>he go underground? See? See he's shifty, shady. Okay. But

632
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.920
<v Speaker 2>if you put it in a greater context and you

633
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:28.000
<v Speaker 2>think about you know, listen, if there is a source

634
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.559
<v Speaker 2>where your worldview is being shaped by that source, you

635
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:35.199
<v Speaker 2>might consult somebody there and say, hey, you know, someone

636
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.039
<v Speaker 2>wrong here a little bit with my worldview and trying

637
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.360
<v Speaker 2>to express it. You might go back to what it

638
00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 2>is that informed you, or who it is that informed you,

639
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:50.880
<v Speaker 2>or the publication that informed you. Reread your stuff? Did

640
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.039
<v Speaker 2>I miss something? Is there something else I should be

641
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:55.880
<v Speaker 2>able to do? Since you're telling us this part of

642
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the story, you must know more. I'm just saying it does.

643
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.519
<v Speaker 2>It's got logic to it. It's got a logic to

644
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.519
<v Speaker 2>it that you know, isn't kooky and isn't you know,

645
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:07.480
<v Speaker 2>drastic and out of left field?

646
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:12.679
<v Speaker 3>Uh? And and I think it tells us to two

647
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:17.039
<v Speaker 3>more things. One is again, Oswell is not nearly a

648
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:22.440
<v Speaker 3>straight line as we would like. He's not just just

649
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:26.199
<v Speaker 3>one track, never varies from that tract. He can even

650
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.719
<v Speaker 3>have self doubt. And in this instance that self doubt

651
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:33.119
<v Speaker 3>is very important because when you're reading the letter and

652
00:40:33.159 --> 00:40:36.800
<v Speaker 3>you're going Oswald is really saying, you know, people might

653
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:43.719
<v Speaker 3>take this and use my backstory to actually attack the

654
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:48.679
<v Speaker 3>fair play for community and detact you know, the revolution

655
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:50.960
<v Speaker 3>in Cuba. And he's saying that, you know, people might

656
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:54.960
<v Speaker 3>do that. He is self aware enough without knowing it

657
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 3>to know exactly at that time in New Orleans is

658
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.800
<v Speaker 3>beginning to prepare a package based around that second radio

659
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:10.679
<v Speaker 3>debate and they'll be working on that package, and we

660
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:14.159
<v Speaker 3>don't know exactly when it was available. But at the

661
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.679
<v Speaker 3>same time Oswald is wondering about could somebody use this

662
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:23.280
<v Speaker 3>against me? For sure, INCA and very possibly Special affairs

663
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.880
<v Speaker 3>staff in Miami are taking that to begin a propaganda

664
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.199
<v Speaker 3>program built around the Harvey Oswald, and Oswald is smart

665
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.960
<v Speaker 3>enough to realize that that could happen, and he's beginning

666
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 3>to back out of it because he realizes the implications.

667
00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:45.760
<v Speaker 3>And that's a much brighter and more situationally aware Oswald

668
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:48.239
<v Speaker 3>than we have thought about in the past.

669
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:52.280
<v Speaker 2>And it makes more sense now that the media was

670
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 2>instantly informed about this stuff because remember this is still localized,

671
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, in national broadcasts are not calm, and you

672
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.599
<v Speaker 2>know in nineteen sixty three, okay, so you know it.

673
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Just because ABC News in Laws in New Orleans or

674
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:11.599
<v Speaker 2>whatever had it doesn't mean that every ABC News had it.

675
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.960
<v Speaker 2>You know what I'm saying, I used ABC as an example.

676
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:18.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying that's specific. What I'm saying is that

677
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 2>instantaneously after his name was known and a couple of

678
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:27.119
<v Speaker 2>biographical facts were known, our media, even in that day

679
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:32.880
<v Speaker 2>and age when we didn't have the instantaneous transmissions of things.

680
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:40.840
<v Speaker 2>Already had clips from these radio shows, these audios instantaneously,

681
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 2>and it seems like that was ready to be distributed

682
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:49.599
<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly, and it was something that somebody was aware

683
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:53.800
<v Speaker 2>would be useful at some point. So you know right there,

684
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:58.239
<v Speaker 2>you know that, like you're saying, look, they were preparing

685
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:02.199
<v Speaker 2>packets because you know, maybe explaining what INCA was doing

686
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.519
<v Speaker 2>because a lot of people, you know, they know it

687
00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:08.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of, but could you just give you know, a

688
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:11.519
<v Speaker 2>bullet point on inco what that was and why that's important,

689
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:16.280
<v Speaker 2>why they would have been interested in this specific situation.

690
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:21.880
<v Speaker 3>ETHA was a very interesting organization, and I think there's

691
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.199
<v Speaker 3>a case that could be made with documents that we

692
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:31.440
<v Speaker 3>have now. ECO was one of those anti communist groups,

693
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 3>very very right ring, very anti communists that had been

694
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.679
<v Speaker 3>organized and founded by a fellow in New Orleans who

695
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:44.400
<v Speaker 3>had been a PR specialist. He was a public relations specialist,

696
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:49.440
<v Speaker 3>that was his business, and he was strongly anti communist

697
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:52.639
<v Speaker 3>and felt that the Communists were really a lot better

698
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.719
<v Speaker 3>at pop propaganda in PR than we were, that they

699
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:01.760
<v Speaker 3>were telling their story better. Yeah, State Department did some things,

700
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, the CIA did some things, but you know,

701
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:10.599
<v Speaker 3>the Communist Party out of Soviet Union in particular, was

702
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.000
<v Speaker 3>so skilled and the fishing that they were telling their

703
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.760
<v Speaker 3>story around the world a lot better than we were

704
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.920
<v Speaker 3>telling our story. And he had founded a couple of

705
00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:25.440
<v Speaker 3>small organizations that began to craft, you know, anti commun

706
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:29.280
<v Speaker 3>stories and circulate them. And then he got some major

707
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:34.159
<v Speaker 3>financial support from a fellow named Aushner in New Orleans

708
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.960
<v Speaker 3>who was very well known throughout the Caribbean. He had

709
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.639
<v Speaker 3>a clinic treated a lot of government officials from different

710
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:48.760
<v Speaker 3>Central American and Latin American countries and was quite wealthy,

711
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:54.840
<v Speaker 3>and he funded ECO with a lot of money. And

712
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.639
<v Speaker 3>so they started doing you know, a lot of really

713
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:02.880
<v Speaker 3>well done pr It's very clear that actually one of

714
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 3>the best things, the most effective things they did, were

715
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.159
<v Speaker 3>a series of truth tapes. And those truth tapes were

716
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:17.599
<v Speaker 3>interviews with Cuban expatriots, Cuban refuses who had terrible stories

717
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 3>to tell about the Castro regime, the appropriation of properties, executions.

718
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:27.400
<v Speaker 3>And now we know that a lot of those people

719
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.400
<v Speaker 3>were pointed towards Eca from the CIA and that he

720
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:36.440
<v Speaker 3>worked with the CIA, and the CIA also helped distribute

721
00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:41.079
<v Speaker 3>those truth tapes to their outlets, their deniable outlets in

722
00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:47.679
<v Speaker 3>Central America. So ECLO was closely connected to the CIA

723
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:53.000
<v Speaker 3>for propaganda purposes. And so when you're looking at that,

724
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:55.559
<v Speaker 3>it really raises the question. It's kind of like, well,

725
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:00.800
<v Speaker 3>if he knows and Econ knows how to make you

726
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:04.800
<v Speaker 3>know the best of Lee Harvey Oswell's you know, efforts

727
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.360
<v Speaker 3>in New Orleans, is there anybody in Miami that's thinking

728
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:12.679
<v Speaker 3>about doing the same thing. A lot to be explored there.

729
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:17.119
<v Speaker 3>David Boyle and I are exploring that and doing some research.

730
00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 3>But ECA is just EGA is kind of a clue

731
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:25.679
<v Speaker 3>as to the kind of propaganda that the CIA may

732
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 3>have been thinking about in regard to Lee Harvey Oswell.

733
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Because based on Jeff Morley's work and the recent documents

734
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:40.719
<v Speaker 3>that we now know that everybody at Special Affairs Staff

735
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:46.840
<v Speaker 3>in d C in Miami, SaaS Miami Operating based JM Way,

736
00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:50.079
<v Speaker 3>they all knew about Oswell. They all knew about Oswald.

737
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:55.519
<v Speaker 3>Is the rest confrontation. They were all aware of what

738
00:46:55.639 --> 00:47:01.199
<v Speaker 3>propaganda that had already been done with this radio broadcast,

739
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.800
<v Speaker 3>and it's almost impossible to think that they could see

740
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:08.679
<v Speaker 3>how effective that that radio interview had been that you

741
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 3>had described and that they would not want to take

742
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:12.920
<v Speaker 3>advantage of it in some fashion.

743
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, and here's the thing, multiple things can be true

744
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.280
<v Speaker 2>at the same time where the CIA could work in

745
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.400
<v Speaker 2>support of INCA. Whether it was organically created or not

746
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:27.679
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, because either way it would be advantageous to

747
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.920
<v Speaker 2>at least exploring how to utilize that information. And even

748
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:38.800
<v Speaker 2>in the post assassination, immediate post assassination media frenzy, where

749
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:42.639
<v Speaker 2>every magazine and a lot of television and a lot

750
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of radio was devoted to the assassination in the immediate way, okay,

751
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.840
<v Speaker 2>not long after, INCA literally produces records Oswald Speaks or

752
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 2>something they called it. I've seen it before. I owned

753
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 2>a beat up copy at one time, and it's literally

754
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:01.079
<v Speaker 2>if you look at the back of the you know,

755
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.559
<v Speaker 2>the LP jacket, Uh, yes, it's Oswald's interview And there

756
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:08.639
<v Speaker 2>you go. It's produced by INCA. Now they're not a

757
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:10.960
<v Speaker 2>record company, and they yeah, sorry.

758
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.039
<v Speaker 3>They did it in English and in Spanish.

759
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Yes, they do.

760
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:20.679
<v Speaker 3>That matter, which is very interesting. And yeah, there's there's

761
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.079
<v Speaker 3>a lot that we can be learned when you start

762
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:26.719
<v Speaker 3>we start mapping out about who knew what about oz

763
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:30.559
<v Speaker 3>Will when that was denied. All this time. You know,

764
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:34.599
<v Speaker 3>now that we know that so much of that was

765
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:38.719
<v Speaker 3>was taken out of the record, people didn't talk about

766
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:41.559
<v Speaker 3>what they knew. You know, we can start to reverse

767
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 3>engineer some of what might have been going on, because

768
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:48.039
<v Speaker 3>otherwise it's just piece bits and pieces laying around and

769
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:51.880
<v Speaker 3>you go, you know, that's strange, that's anomalous. But we

770
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 3>can't connect those bits and pieces. And now I think

771
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.559
<v Speaker 3>we have a better chance of doing it now that

772
00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:02.760
<v Speaker 3>we realize the information that was in circulation about Oswald

773
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:06.840
<v Speaker 3>that everybody wanted to deny and get out of the record,

774
00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:11.760
<v Speaker 3>brings a whole new you know, we all thought that

775
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.880
<v Speaker 3>might be true. Now we know it's true.

776
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And this also speaks to the you know, the post

777
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:24.960
<v Speaker 2>assassination narrative, because that was managed obviously, and some people

778
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:27.079
<v Speaker 2>would say it was managed for the reason that you know,

779
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Johnson gave to h you know, to Warren or Warren

780
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:32.840
<v Speaker 2>in the first place, you know, put your uniform back on.

781
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.920
<v Speaker 2>You got to prevent a nuclear war because the commedies

782
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:40.440
<v Speaker 2>did it well, you know, is that legitimate or not. Anyway,

783
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.320
<v Speaker 2>it had to be managed, and part of the management

784
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:47.320
<v Speaker 2>would be managing the information about Oswald, making sure certain

785
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:51.440
<v Speaker 2>things got out there. Who knows even distributed. How does

786
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:56.360
<v Speaker 2>an organization like income Excuse me, just because I've been

787
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.079
<v Speaker 2>sick a little lately, I am sorry about that. I

788
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:02.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't mean to call at you. How does an organization

789
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:07.440
<v Speaker 2>like INCA even get to distribute a record? Somebody wanted

790
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:11.440
<v Speaker 2>to help with that, Okay, you don't distribute record distribution

791
00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 2>at that time. There was something to be said for that, okay.

792
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:18.519
<v Speaker 2>So they either volunteered to help out INCA, an organization

793
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:20.559
<v Speaker 2>that maybe not everybody in the world knew about in

794
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:24.719
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty three sixty four, you know, they wanted to

795
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:27.239
<v Speaker 2>help them distribute a record. They got these things, the

796
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:32.039
<v Speaker 2>record stores made sure it was produced in English and Spanish,

797
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:35.280
<v Speaker 2>the production was done here. That wasn't something that was

798
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:36.199
<v Speaker 2>easily done.

799
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:36.639
<v Speaker 3>You know.

800
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Then all the way pretty much through the history of

801
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:45.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, vinyl and LPs, okay, there is something to

802
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.079
<v Speaker 2>be said about the organisms that had to come together

803
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.800
<v Speaker 2>and coalesce to even put that record out. So from

804
00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the time it was recorded to the time it was broadcast,

805
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.599
<v Speaker 2>or when it was broadcast slash recorded to the time

806
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:02.119
<v Speaker 2>it's distributed later, all of these things can be revelatory

807
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:06.960
<v Speaker 2>if we know the information, who helped, why, who suppressed

808
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:11.119
<v Speaker 2>why so? And here's me again trying to step back

809
00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:14.800
<v Speaker 2>and take the objective point of view, because this will

810
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:19.199
<v Speaker 2>show you something, and you can only do that if

811
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:23.679
<v Speaker 2>you're not hunting after it with a prescribed agenda. Again,

812
00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:27.480
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter. Forget about the politics I brought up, liberal, conservative,

813
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:31.960
<v Speaker 2>blah blah blah. The labels and language have shifted a bit.

814
00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.719
<v Speaker 2>Forget that. If we just go with I believe Oswald

815
00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:38.519
<v Speaker 2>did it, I believe Oswald didn't.

816
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.239
<v Speaker 4>Do it, it.

817
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:46.039
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't really matter. You can reveal the whole history. If

818
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:49.199
<v Speaker 2>we can take in the whole history of the circumstance

819
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and show it for what it is, and you don't

820
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:57.280
<v Speaker 2>have to believe anything, because if we actually get it all,

821
00:51:57.400 --> 00:51:59.199
<v Speaker 2>you might be able to parse it out for yourself,

822
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.000
<v Speaker 2>if we can actually examine the entirety of the record.

823
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm using just this example because it's it's a good one.

824
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:12.119
<v Speaker 2>It's got a real time circumstance, it's got a preassassination

825
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.760
<v Speaker 2>circumstance all evolving around the assassination, and one of the

826
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:21.760
<v Speaker 2>key figures in the discussion anyway of the assassination, and

827
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:28.159
<v Speaker 2>it's got a posthumous traveling record afterwards too, So to

828
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.440
<v Speaker 2>me that's most interesting, And if you take it all apart,

829
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:34.800
<v Speaker 2>you might get a chance to figure out what actually

830
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.400
<v Speaker 2>happened to you, you know, because some people have said, look,

831
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.960
<v Speaker 2>these people were CIA people. They were behaving like they

832
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.559
<v Speaker 2>cared about you know, Central and South America. But really

833
00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:48.679
<v Speaker 2>they were just CIA operatives. And well, okay, so was

834
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:51.559
<v Speaker 2>Oswald a CIA operative? Yes, well why are they working

835
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:56.599
<v Speaker 2>against each other? Then, you know, like, you can't just

836
00:52:56.719 --> 00:53:00.559
<v Speaker 2>dismiss it with one of those sweeping statements, and especially

837
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:04.880
<v Speaker 2>you can't do that unless you've dug into all of

838
00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances. Like I said, consider what it would take

839
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to distribute a record for INCA. This is not you know,

840
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Atlantic Records, This is not you know, Chess Records, This

841
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:18.400
<v Speaker 2>is not this is a company that's not in the

842
00:53:18.440 --> 00:53:20.639
<v Speaker 2>business of doing this, but somehow managed to do that.

843
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Maybe looking into that would be interesting as well. I mean,

844
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:27.639
<v Speaker 2>now you have to actually look at all of it

845
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:30.719
<v Speaker 2>and look at the circumstances of the time that have

846
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:32.719
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with it. What would it take to

847
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:37.039
<v Speaker 2>make that record and distribute it? These are fair questions.

848
00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:40.639
<v Speaker 3>Clearly, you didn't put it into Spanish just because you

849
00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:43.719
<v Speaker 3>wanted to distribute it in the US. There's always an

850
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:47.800
<v Speaker 3>intention to take it much more broadly into Latin America,

851
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:52.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, and that's going to be expensive and among

852
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.719
<v Speaker 3>the things. And now we can tell.

853
00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:57.920
<v Speaker 5>The whole story of how the CIA was set up

854
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:03.079
<v Speaker 5>to distribute that kind of aial to its own deniable outlets,

855
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:07.800
<v Speaker 5>its own foreign basically media network.

856
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:10.400
<v Speaker 3>We know that the person that was in charge of

857
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:13.960
<v Speaker 3>doing that was David Phillips out of Mexico City, which

858
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:17.599
<v Speaker 3>brings some more interesting things into the conversation. But in

859
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:20.519
<v Speaker 3>the line of our overall thought it it all comes

860
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:24.800
<v Speaker 3>back to something simple as if if you don't have

861
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:28.920
<v Speaker 3>if you don't present the full primary data, if you

862
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:33.719
<v Speaker 3>can't see the full primary data, if somebody doesn't show

863
00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:37.599
<v Speaker 3>you all of the primary data, then by human nature,

864
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:41.440
<v Speaker 3>you're liable to make what you can see fit what

865
00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:45.559
<v Speaker 3>you want to see, which is a sin that I

866
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:51.199
<v Speaker 3>committed when I just saw Underground. Oh okay, that none

867
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.440
<v Speaker 3>of us are immune for that, and we've got to

868
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:57.039
<v Speaker 3>watch ourselves. So there's a warning there. If you again,

869
00:54:57.159 --> 00:54:59.559
<v Speaker 3>if you don't put those stakes in the ground, you

870
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:03.199
<v Speaker 3>start saying you set your filters. We all have filters,

871
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:06.159
<v Speaker 3>and your filters go to work, and if you limit

872
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:09.760
<v Speaker 3>the information coming into the filter, it makes it even worse.

873
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:14.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, and the other point you made about peer review, look,

874
00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:18.280
<v Speaker 2>not every peer is equal. That's true. But you know what,

875
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.000
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have things tested, and I'm telling you

876
00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:22.639
<v Speaker 2>that that's gonna be something I'm going to do at

877
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Lancer this year is pretty much say look, test it

878
00:55:26.199 --> 00:55:29.719
<v Speaker 2>all about what I'm going to tell you here. I

879
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:34.000
<v Speaker 2>want you to go and prove me wrong. Please add

880
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:38.800
<v Speaker 2>to my knowledge if you can. I want that. I

881
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:41.559
<v Speaker 2>actually appreciate that part of the process. I don't think

882
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:43.480
<v Speaker 2>it's a negative. Some people say, well, oh, you made

883
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:47.960
<v Speaker 2>mistakes in your book. Sometimes there are our mistakes. You know.

884
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:50.639
<v Speaker 2>A good, very smart friend of mine once made a

885
00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:52.880
<v Speaker 2>mistake in the very first sentence of his book that

886
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:56.000
<v Speaker 2>he showed me after he already had him printed up,

887
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.679
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I wish you had shown that to

888
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:02.679
<v Speaker 2>me in the first place. There are mistakes, But Larry's

889
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:06.239
<v Speaker 2>laugh and I think he knows I'm talking about anyway.

890
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:09.119
<v Speaker 2>The point is you can make a mistake like that.

891
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Anybody can. But when you put these things out, I

892
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.360
<v Speaker 2>mean look, I'd prefer to give people the basis to

893
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:22.079
<v Speaker 2>prove something wrong and expand the general knowledge, because that's

894
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:24.000
<v Speaker 2>what it's actually all about. At the end of all

895
00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:28.159
<v Speaker 2>of this, this discussion about who found something, who missed something,

896
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:33.559
<v Speaker 2>or anything else. Ultimately, the goal of the historian should

897
00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:40.199
<v Speaker 2>be to refine the record with new information, with better information,

898
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:46.000
<v Speaker 2>with more complete information, with newly discovered things, or maybe

899
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:50.000
<v Speaker 2>some things that were already there but having been ignored previously.

900
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:54.000
<v Speaker 2>And I think that should be the goal for everybody.

901
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Revision should not ever be seen as a defeat, but

902
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:03.320
<v Speaker 2>should be seen as evolution of the thing we're all after,

903
00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:07.719
<v Speaker 2>which is the most truthful and accurate portrait of the

904
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:13.199
<v Speaker 2>historical event, time period, people, person, business, whatever it may be.

905
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And politicizing this is going to do nobody any favors,

906
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:20.880
<v Speaker 2>no matter what your point of view is. I mean,

907
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.599
<v Speaker 2>that's the ultimate conclusion to tonight's discussion. In my mind, Larry,

908
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.719
<v Speaker 2>that's where we should be. But by all means, if

909
00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:31.320
<v Speaker 2>you have a different way of putting it, or you

910
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:34.119
<v Speaker 2>think we need to add to that, you know we

911
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.239
<v Speaker 2>can close it out. On your final thoughts here about this.

912
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:42.159
<v Speaker 3>I think you put that very well I don't really

913
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 3>have any any final thought other than if you make

914
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:50.119
<v Speaker 3>it what you want it to be, or if you

915
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:57.000
<v Speaker 3>contaminate your primary sources, you're fooling yourself. And okay, it's

916
00:57:57.039 --> 00:57:59.679
<v Speaker 3>one thing to do it for yourself, all right, But

917
00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:03.039
<v Speaker 3>my point would be at the higher level that you

918
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:06.280
<v Speaker 3>do it. If you do it at the nation's primary

919
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:11.039
<v Speaker 3>national institutions, you didn't just fool yourself, you damage the

920
00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:14.559
<v Speaker 3>whole society. So you've got to look at the You've

921
00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:19.760
<v Speaker 3>got to look at the consequences. You have to be

922
00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:23.360
<v Speaker 3>much more demanding, which is why academia is more demanding,

923
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:27.320
<v Speaker 3>why peer reviews are brutal, and having been through a

924
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:30.360
<v Speaker 3>number of peer reviews, they are brutal. There it's like

925
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:35.480
<v Speaker 3>not something that life is. You don't do it because

926
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.159
<v Speaker 3>you want people to find things that are wrong, but

927
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:41.440
<v Speaker 3>you really don't want to write you know, you would

928
00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:44.639
<v Speaker 3>prefer they didn't, So you're subjecting yourself to that. But

929
00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:49.079
<v Speaker 3>if at the national level, if you don't have that

930
00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:52.719
<v Speaker 3>stake in the ground and go through the process, you're

931
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:57.239
<v Speaker 3>not just fooling yourself, you're fooling literally millions of people.

932
00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:01.440
<v Speaker 3>And what's worse with social networking being what it is today.

933
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:08.159
<v Speaker 3>You're you're fooling. You're you're generating data that will feedback

934
00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.440
<v Speaker 3>and make it worse and worse and worse. You'll get

935
00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:15.239
<v Speaker 3>further and further and further from the truth. We all

936
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:18.760
<v Speaker 3>know that when things get repeated, they generally don't get

937
00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:21.960
<v Speaker 3>repeated right, and the story gets worse. We all played

938
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.559
<v Speaker 3>that game in school, you know, make a line and

939
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:27.000
<v Speaker 3>stay something. By the time he gets to the tenth person,

940
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:30.400
<v Speaker 3>it's something totally different. So the risk is even greater

941
00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:35.480
<v Speaker 3>now from an institutional and a social standpoint. So I

942
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:39.519
<v Speaker 3>guess I probably labor that point enough, but we you know,

943
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:42.320
<v Speaker 3>there are points places where you need to be squeaky

944
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.679
<v Speaker 3>clean and get above yourself, and that's one of them.

945
00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:50.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, one of the lesser known guys who really

946
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.800
<v Speaker 2>used to lecture me on the phone a lot. Do

947
00:59:54.840 --> 01:00:01.679
<v Speaker 2>you remember Roger Remington? Oh yeah, he was historian, you know,

948
01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:04.760
<v Speaker 2>and he was a professor at Aquinas College, a small college,

949
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:09.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, middle of the country kind of thing. And

950
01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:14.639
<v Speaker 2>the brilliance that came from that guy is just it's

951
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.760
<v Speaker 2>a gift that keeps on giving. He's passed away now

952
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:21.400
<v Speaker 2>quite a while, but I can never forget the stuff

953
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:25.079
<v Speaker 2>that this man you know, impressed upon me, gave me

954
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:27.679
<v Speaker 2>educations in some of those, you know, a couple hours

955
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:35.880
<v Speaker 2>phone calls, you know, sternly, very how would you put

956
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.800
<v Speaker 2>it in a very curt sort of way. He was

957
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:44.119
<v Speaker 2>a little he was a little crusty as an old guy. Actually, okay, yeah,

958
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:48.719
<v Speaker 2>you talked to him, yeah, okay, yes, so you know,

959
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.679
<v Speaker 2>and he would lecture me about perspective and there was

960
01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:56.440
<v Speaker 2>a French concept to that and how history could not

961
01:00:56.480 --> 01:01:00.599
<v Speaker 2>be written until seventy five years after it occurred because

962
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:04.559
<v Speaker 2>there needed to be time for perspective, right, you know,

963
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:07.039
<v Speaker 2>the French. I'm butchering the French, but you know what

964
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting at. And he said, you know, one of

965
01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:16.280
<v Speaker 2>the problems that's going to continue to snowball from I'm

966
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:24.519
<v Speaker 2>paraphrasing the modern historical literature that occurs right after something happens.

967
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:26.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, a book gets written two years after something,

968
01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:31.000
<v Speaker 2>a book gets written months after, et cetera, is that

969
01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:38.519
<v Speaker 2>there is no time for a careful examination. And we're

970
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:42.079
<v Speaker 2>going to see this problem speed up over time. We're

971
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:47.639
<v Speaker 2>going to see it increase in its velocity because the

972
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:49.719
<v Speaker 2>more people that get involved in it the more books

973
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.159
<v Speaker 2>that need to be get made, even though publishing is

974
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:54.800
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily the biggest business in the world at this point,

975
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:57.760
<v Speaker 2>and who the hell reads a book, clearly not a

976
01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:02.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of people in power. The point is that we

977
01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:07.920
<v Speaker 2>now live in an age where instant information is even

978
01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:10.000
<v Speaker 2>worse than the stuff that used to take a couple

979
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:16.079
<v Speaker 2>of years to publish. And it's still you know, it

980
01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:19.599
<v Speaker 2>has a lot to do with the ethical and ethical

981
01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:25.920
<v Speaker 2>considerations of the authors, and those very wildly you know,

982
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:30.679
<v Speaker 2>you tell me, not everyone is a historian, you know,

983
01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:34.880
<v Speaker 2>even if they want to be. We could all contribute

984
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:38.280
<v Speaker 2>to the history, but we must be careful. And I

985
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:41.480
<v Speaker 2>think that you know, as I said before, it's the

986
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.519
<v Speaker 2>political considerations. All of that have nothing to do with

987
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:50.639
<v Speaker 2>getting at the accurate portrait. You know, some people use

988
01:02:50.679 --> 01:02:52.800
<v Speaker 2>the word truth and this and that, and then people

989
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:54.880
<v Speaker 2>want to convolude that and say, well, this is my truth,

990
01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:59.639
<v Speaker 2>this is your truth, and no, there's only one way

991
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.760
<v Speaker 2>that things happen. There may be a lot of perspectives

992
01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:05.039
<v Speaker 2>you can look at it from. You can catch it

993
01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:07.880
<v Speaker 2>from a bunch of different angles. And the more angles

994
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:12.599
<v Speaker 2>you get, and the more what would they call that

995
01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:17.840
<v Speaker 2>panoramic view you can have of the circumstance, like I say,

996
01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:21.280
<v Speaker 2>the time period, the business, the individual, the historical event,

997
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the better off you are, and those things will only

998
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.280
<v Speaker 2>come to us with time, one way or another. Now

999
01:03:28.280 --> 01:03:29.960
<v Speaker 2>you have to wait for something to be a little

1000
01:03:30.039 --> 01:03:32.840
<v Speaker 2>less redacted, for you to be able to see something

1001
01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:37.159
<v Speaker 2>a little differently. But that's not a mistake. That's part

1002
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:40.760
<v Speaker 2>of the process, and all of that needs to be retained,

1003
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:41.400
<v Speaker 2>doesn't it.

1004
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:45.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we should. We should be warned what he was saying.

1005
01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:49.480
<v Speaker 3>It's sort of like, okay, we all know historians know that, Yeah,

1006
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:52.559
<v Speaker 3>seventy five years is a good working number. And the

1007
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:56.119
<v Speaker 3>thing was that used to be the publishing process. You know,

1008
01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:58.400
<v Speaker 3>you might see a book come out a year or

1009
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:00.639
<v Speaker 3>two years after the fact, which we did with the

1010
01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:04.199
<v Speaker 3>Kennedy assassination, and you would really know that that was

1011
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:07.480
<v Speaker 3>too early. But now it's so much worse. You can

1012
01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:11.599
<v Speaker 3>take any event that occurs today and there will be

1013
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.760
<v Speaker 3>I just look at some of the publishers. There'll be

1014
01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:19.000
<v Speaker 3>a book out on it, you know, out in four months.

1015
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:22.400
<v Speaker 3>You know, something that looks like a book after four months,

1016
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:25.599
<v Speaker 3>But that'll be lagging behind social media, which will have

1017
01:04:25.679 --> 01:04:29.639
<v Speaker 3>already covered the issue and resolved it, and people's position

1018
01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:33.239
<v Speaker 3>will have been taken within twenty four or forty eight hours.

1019
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:38.360
<v Speaker 3>So things are getting worse if you don't follow the best,

1020
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:42.360
<v Speaker 3>it's not getting better. His concerns that it would get

1021
01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:45.599
<v Speaker 3>worse are proven absolutely right.

1022
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:47.519
<v Speaker 2>And I mean he must have said that to me

1023
01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:49.880
<v Speaker 2>in the late nineties when the Internet was not what

1024
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.719
<v Speaker 2>it is, and you know, well, maybe no, it was

1025
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:59.039
<v Speaker 2>early two thousands. The latest that could have been is

1026
01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:01.559
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and three when he said that to me,

1027
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:04.360
<v Speaker 2>and said it to me more than once. If you

1028
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:07.400
<v Speaker 2>never heard of Roger Remington, by the way, I would suggest,

1029
01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:10.679
<v Speaker 2>if you're well read on the Kennedy assassination, a little

1030
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:15.320
<v Speaker 2>something called Biting the Elephant. It's one of three or

1031
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.559
<v Speaker 2>four books that he put out very plain covers. He

1032
01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:20.880
<v Speaker 2>said he didn't care about getting readers for them, even

1033
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:24.719
<v Speaker 2>because he was trying to publish things for other historians

1034
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:30.119
<v Speaker 2>to pick up. Anyway, I leave it at that, Larry,

1035
01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:32.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I'm not trying to promote Roger's stuff.

1036
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's not going to make anything from it,

1037
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think he made anything from it to

1038
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:41.559
<v Speaker 2>begin with. But he definitely gave me the ten plates

1039
01:05:42.039 --> 01:05:45.599
<v Speaker 2>to understand what it is we really should be doing

1040
01:05:45.639 --> 01:05:48.039
<v Speaker 2>with our best practices, or at least have a vague

1041
01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:50.880
<v Speaker 2>idea about it. I'm not even saying I know all that,

1042
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:55.559
<v Speaker 2>but either way, these best practices are there for a reason,

1043
01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:58.599
<v Speaker 2>and they pre exist, you know, this little country of ours,

1044
01:05:58.599 --> 01:06:02.840
<v Speaker 2>our Library of Congress, all that, so you know there's

1045
01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:07.440
<v Speaker 2>a reason for it. Just saying anyway, Larrydashhandcock dot Com,

1046
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:12.840
<v Speaker 2>go there. I still highly recommend the Oswald Puzzle, and

1047
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:14.719
<v Speaker 2>I can't wait to see what you and David do

1048
01:06:14.760 --> 01:06:18.679
<v Speaker 2>at Lancer this year. I think you're going to be

1049
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:21.400
<v Speaker 2>one of several controversial presentations.

1050
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:25.000
<v Speaker 3>Maybe that's that's what we do.

1051
01:06:25.639 --> 01:06:29.519
<v Speaker 2>It is what we do. I think I'm going to

1052
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:32.079
<v Speaker 2>really aggravate people because I'm going to be in person,

1053
01:06:32.599 --> 01:06:36.480
<v Speaker 2>but you're going to be there virtually, and David will

1054
01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:38.480
<v Speaker 2>also be presenting with you. Not sure if he'll be

1055
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:41.679
<v Speaker 2>virtual or in person just yet, but you know, if

1056
01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:43.639
<v Speaker 2>you keep up on the news there you'll find out.

1057
01:06:44.039 --> 01:06:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Also in the show notes, you'll see a link to

1058
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:50.239
<v Speaker 2>l Answer in a discount code if you want to

1059
01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:55.199
<v Speaker 2>attend in person or online. But that aside the link

1060
01:06:55.239 --> 01:06:59.559
<v Speaker 2>to Larry's book the Oswald puzzle, Larry's website, Larry's blog,

1061
01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:05.599
<v Speaker 2>always informative, always evolving, and you know, Larry has changed

1062
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:09.000
<v Speaker 2>over the years as new information has become available, like

1063
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:15.159
<v Speaker 2>a responsible person would do. And I I don't know

1064
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:18.480
<v Speaker 2>what can I say? Larry is basically my favorite living historian.

1065
01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:23.079
<v Speaker 2>How about that? And I hope he is yours too. Anyway,

1066
01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:25.079
<v Speaker 2>thanks Larry for doing this. I took you a little

1067
01:07:25.079 --> 01:07:28.480
<v Speaker 2>bit over, Sorry about that, but I think we got

1068
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the message across. What do you say?

1069
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:36.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, definitely is something that needs to be said regardless,

1070
01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:38.840
<v Speaker 3>but just needed to be said. So thanks for the

1071
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:40.159
<v Speaker 3>opportunity to do it.

1072
01:07:40.519 --> 01:07:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Anytime, Larry. Of course, we'll try and speak to you

1073
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:44.480
<v Speaker 2>again in two weeks, and who knows what will be

1074
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:50.400
<v Speaker 2>happening then that we need to address. Hopefully nothing world ending,

1075
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:53.639
<v Speaker 2>but you know, it is what it is. And if

1076
01:07:53.639 --> 01:07:56.199
<v Speaker 2>nothing else, maybe we'll talk about some more JFK stuff,

1077
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:58.880
<v Speaker 2>or maybe we'll talk about some of these other documents

1078
01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:01.920
<v Speaker 2>that have been released or are yet to be released.

1079
01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I almost want to see what Larry thinks of the

1080
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:07.039
<v Speaker 2>Epstein thing. I don't know if you guys want to

1081
01:08:07.039 --> 01:08:09.159
<v Speaker 2>hear about that, or if Larry wants to speak about it,

1082
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:12.000
<v Speaker 2>but be more than happy to take your feedback if

1083
01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:14.400
<v Speaker 2>you write to me at O'Kelly. You know, if you

1084
01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:16.880
<v Speaker 2>look at the email link on olly dot com, just

1085
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.439
<v Speaker 2>click that, it'll give you the address. Whatever I am

1086
01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:23.399
<v Speaker 2>blind JFK researcher at gmail dot com. If you've got

1087
01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:24.800
<v Speaker 2>a pen and you want to write it down or

1088
01:08:24.840 --> 01:08:28.840
<v Speaker 2>you can remember it there, it is Larrydash Handcock dot com.

1089
01:08:28.880 --> 01:09:27.960
<v Speaker 6>And I said, go ahead, call it the.

1090
01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:29.600
<v Speaker 3>Truth about the day of Heay assassination.

1091
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:30.840
<v Speaker 6>Right, Well, what do you want to know?

1092
01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:32.399
<v Speaker 3>Udy Baker's wild claim?

1093
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Oswald girlfriends you knew Ruby and Barry handswer weapons. Really,

1094
01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:38.319
<v Speaker 2>I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It

1095
01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:39.359
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make me a wagon.

1096
01:09:39.479 --> 01:09:42.239
<v Speaker 3>But okay, Oswald was on the building and I'm trying

1097
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:44.399
<v Speaker 3>to prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on now,

1098
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:46.680
<v Speaker 3>has a real effort on the day of pay assassination.

1099
01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:47.760
<v Speaker 1>Book into claim.

1100
01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her

1101
01:09:52.039 --> 01:09:54.880
<v Speaker 2>own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy

1102
01:09:54.920 --> 01:09:58.439
<v Speaker 2>of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words

1103
01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:01.399
<v Speaker 2>and the known evidence in the cave to get at

1104
01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:05.159
<v Speaker 2>well a different perspective let's say you can get judithbary

1105
01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed

1106
01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:12.520
<v Speaker 2>if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at kias

1107
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:16.359
<v Speaker 2>jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book and

1108
01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:21.239
<v Speaker 2>it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith vary

1109
01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:24.479
<v Speaker 2>Baker in her own words, Thank you information.

1110
01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:27.800
<v Speaker 7>Do you like history? Real history that you were never

1111
01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:32.319
<v Speaker 7>taught in schools? Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and

1112
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:36.479
<v Speaker 7>Nation Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson with

1113
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:41.000
<v Speaker 7>new documentation never seen before that'll open your eyes to

1114
01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:44.560
<v Speaker 7>events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War,

1115
01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:49.600
<v Speaker 7>Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty

1116
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:53.760
<v Speaker 7>five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at

1117
01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:58.399
<v Speaker 7>Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam War by author Mike

1118
01:10:58.439 --> 01:11:01.279
<v Speaker 7>Swanson dot com Radio.

1119
01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:15.720
<v Speaker 4>Revelation through conversation, gravel.

1120
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:36.560
<v Speaker 8>Through conversation, are as a seams, and truth breaking through.

1121
01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:40.600
<v Speaker 2>The use expressed my caller schools. There anyone else who

1122
01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:42.359
<v Speaker 2>happens again on the air of Jelly dot com not

1123
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:45.439
<v Speaker 2>necessarily reflecting need us, Lly dot com or Chilli, and

1124
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:48.399
<v Speaker 2>we are not responsible for any stupidity which might ensue thank.

1125
01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:55.119
<v Speaker 7>You Chili dot com.

1126
01:11:52.680 --> 01:12:02.279
<v Speaker 1>Revelation through con say here it is all bally sall

1127
01:12:03.079 --> 01:13:47.239
<v Speaker 1>e A first really shall be Lady Freezon more.

1128
01:14:10.600 --> 01:14:13.800
<v Speaker 4>The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national

1129
01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:16.840
<v Speaker 4>transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in

1130
01:14:16.880 --> 01:14:20.319
<v Speaker 4>the context of the times and reveals never before published

1131
01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:24.000
<v Speaker 4>information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not

1132
01:14:24.079 --> 01:14:26.680
<v Speaker 4>have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred

1133
01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:30.079
<v Speaker 4>years ago. His assassination took place in the context of

1134
01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:33.119
<v Speaker 4>the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.

1135
01:14:33.239 --> 01:14:36.760
<v Speaker 3>Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.

1136
01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:40.159
<v Speaker 4>In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.

1137
01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:44.000
<v Speaker 3>Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,

1138
01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:46.319
<v Speaker 3>but knew that there were short range missiles on the

1139
01:14:46.319 --> 01:14:49.439
<v Speaker 3>island armed with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy

1140
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.439
<v Speaker 3>because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have

1141
01:14:52.520 --> 01:14:55.520
<v Speaker 3>led to a Third World War, and they wanted to

1142
01:14:55.520 --> 01:14:56.760
<v Speaker 3>go to war anyway.

1143
01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:00.399
<v Speaker 4>The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will

1144
01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:02.479
<v Speaker 4>show you what President Kennedy was up against.

1145
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:05.560
<v Speaker 3>For more information, The Warstate dot Com