WEBVTT 1 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:30.640 Welcome back to part two of our series on the 2 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.119 attempted murder of Nancy Drake. Let's jump right in. So 3 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:36.880 one of the other pieces of evidence at trial is 4 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.880 that they got testimony from the church's associate pastor, who's 5 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.439 Joseph Boston, who claimed that after Nancy was taken away 6 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.399 in an ambulance, he called Thomas at home at around 7 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:50.600 one ten to inform him that Nancy had been attacked, 8 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.600 and from his perspective, he said that Thomas sounded like 9 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.039 he was out of breath on the phone when he 10 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:58.359 spoke to him, which, if he was guilty, would make 11 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.719 sense because he would have been at the church like 12 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:04.079 maybe a half hour earlier and committed this brutal crime 13 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:06.239 and then had to run home in order to answer 14 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:09.280 the phone call. But still is pretty weak, because how 15 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:11.439 can you be one hundred percent certain when you're not 16 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.239 actually looking at someone that they sound so out of 17 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:16.239 breath on the phone that that means that they must 18 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:19.000 have just come off of committing an attempted murder. 19 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.079 Yeah, I mean, you could run to the phone, because 20 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.120 back in those days, you're gonna have a corded phone 21 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:28.719 probably on the wall, and you might have to run 22 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:30.159 to get it. Like I remember when I was a 23 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:32.439 little kid having to run to get the phone. It 24 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.480 wasn't like nowadays where our phones are, you know, completely 25 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:38.719 attached to us exactly. 26 00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:41.920 Yeah, So I mean it almost feels like he's running 27 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:44.280 home to like fabricate an alibi, saying that, oh, if 28 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:46.719 they phone me about Nancy's thing, I have to answer 29 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:48.439 it so that I can prove that I was home 30 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.000 when she was being attacked. But it just seems like 31 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:52.519 if he's out of breath, how do you know he 32 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.640 wasn't working out or doing exercise or something exerting like that. 33 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.079 Unless it's like, unless you don't see him sweating or 34 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.599 you see blood on him or something, that doesn't really 35 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.560 prove that he committed the crime. Additional testimony was provided 36 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:07.560 by one of the other parishioners who was at the 37 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:12.039 church that morning, Althea Toth. She claimed that after she 38 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.719 spoke to Thomas a short time after Nancy was taken 39 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.000 to the hospital and said that completely out of the blue, 40 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:21.719 Thomas said that there's a possibility that my fingerprints might 41 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:24.960 be on the hammer because earlier that morning, when I 42 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:27.639 visited the church to bring Nancy some lunch, she had 43 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.639 asked me to hang up some pictures inside the office, 44 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.759 and that's when I used the hammer, but I ultimately 45 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:37.120 did not use it because I couldnt find any nails. Obviously, 46 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:39.599 this didn't matter because there were no fingerprints found in 47 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:41.879 the hammer at all. But the pastor at the church, 48 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.360 Charles Kirby, he expressed some skepticism about Thomas's story, as 49 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.560 he said that it was a rule that Nancy could 50 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.240 not hang up any pictures unless she asked for the 51 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.240 pastor's permission to do so, so it really didn't make 52 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.360 much sense that she would be asking Thomas to hang 53 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.680 up these pictures on her behalf. So it almost appeared 54 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.639 that Thomas was paranoid that his fingerprints were going to 55 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.280 be found on the hammer, so he preemptively came up 56 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.360 with this story about the pictures in order to come 57 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:11.400 up with a potential explanation for it. 58 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:17.240 I don't like that. It feels like he maybe did 59 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:19.680 wipe it down, but he was, just, like you said, 60 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.840 paranoid and decided like, oh, against my better judgment, I'm 61 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.639 going to bring up this hammer because it's top of mind, 62 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:28.960 and I'm worried that maybe when I wiped it down, 63 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.360 I didn't get all my fingerprints off of it. But 64 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.199 I guess, to play devil's advocate, you could say that 65 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.080 if he was the one that wiped it down, if 66 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.000 he did commit this crime, then he would know that 67 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.759 there's no fingerprints on it, So why would he be 68 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.520 bringing this up? So I guess there's multiple ways of 69 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:45.479 looking at it. 70 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:47.800 It's true you can interpret it in different ways. The 71 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:50.520 thing that concerned alfvia Top is that she said that 72 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.000 Thomas brought it up completely out of the blue, like 73 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.680 there wasn't any like segue to it at all. It's 74 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.360 almost like it popped into his mind at that moment, saying, oh, 75 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.120 my fingerprints might be on there. I should share this story. 76 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.520 But in Thomas's defense, he had used the hammer the 77 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:08.120 previous day because he did work in the church's equipment room, 78 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:10.919 because of course, he would sometimes go in there and 79 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.199 record the concerts, And he claimed that after he did 80 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.800 that work, he left the hammer on top of the safe. 81 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:20.240 So theoretically, if it was an outside party and who 82 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.279 came into the church that day, they could have noticed 83 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.519 the hammer on top of the safe and then decided 84 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.600 to use it as a weapon to bludge in Nancy it. 85 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.959 Seems as though multiple parishioners' fingerprints could have been on 86 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.560 that hammer, depending on how many people do work throughout 87 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:39.120 the church, and churches are often places where there can 88 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.199 be several people, Like whether they have a handyman there 89 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.120 all the time, I have no idea, but oftentimes they'll 90 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.399 just get parishioners to help with stuff like that because 91 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.199 it's very much a community where everybody's pitching in. So 92 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:53.600 it seems likely that you're not just going to have 93 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.319 the killer's prints on the hammer exactly. 94 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:58.360 Yeah, So it is possible this is all a red 95 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:00.879 herring that it really doesn't matter at just because they 96 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.560 wiped off all the fingerprints, but also the fact that 97 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:05.639 this hammer was around in the church a lot also 98 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:09.000 shows that. Say, if another person like Raymond Starr spent 99 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.120 a lot of time there, he may have noticed the 100 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.199 hammer and knew it was there, and that could have 101 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:15.279 been why they decided to go in there and use 102 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:15.959 it as a weapon. 103 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.439 And I don't like how he just brought up the 104 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:23.199 hammer like that is really odd. But again, if you 105 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.079 had been hanging things throughout the church and you thought 106 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.319 your fingerprints are going to be on there, legitimately you 107 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.000 could be really paranoid that everybody's going to point at you. 108 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:34.839 So this case just has so many different ways to 109 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:38.560 interpret all of the evidence that it's like mind boggling. 110 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:41.480 It is, Yeah, because technically, if Thomas is innocent, he 111 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.399 wouldn't have known that the perpetrator wiped away the fingerprints. 112 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.439 So he's just thinking of that my prince could be 113 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.519 on there, so I should explain beforehand and provide them 114 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:50.720 with a logical explanation. 115 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:56.240 Exactly. It reminds me of Darley Routier with that knife, 116 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:57.920 Like my prince could be on the knife. 117 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.160 Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah. So she's obviously I think she's 118 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.879 guilty personally, but I can see her like mentioning that 119 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:08.519 just as a way to explain her prince possibly being found. 120 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.439 I agree with you, Like first I thought there might 121 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:14.360 be a possibility that she was innocent, But the more 122 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:16.279 time it's gone on, and the more that I've heard 123 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:19.519 and read about that case, I to believe that she's guilty. 124 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.399 So now let's talk about the timeline, which causes some 125 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:27.360 additional confusion here. As you recall, Nancy called Thomas and 126 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:29.360 asked her to bring the lunch to the church, and 127 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:32.519 this story was verified by the associate pastor, so we 128 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.079 have more than Thomas's word on this. And Thomas claimed 129 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:38.959 that he arrived at twelve fifteen and left at around 130 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:41.839 twelve thirty. But the problem is that this seems to 131 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:46.079 be contradicted by the other witness, Alfia top That's a 132 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:47.480 tongue twister, if there was one. 133 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:48.199 That is a tongue twister. 134 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:52.319 Yeah. She claimed that she stopped by the church from 135 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:55.240 twelve to twenty five to twelve thirty in order to 136 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.279 purchase a concert ticket and said that Thomas was not 137 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.000 there at that time, even though oh Thomas said that 138 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:03.959 when he left that he had seen althea talk leaving, 139 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.800 So this would imply that Thomas did not arrive until 140 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:11.319 after twelve thirty, after Toth was gone. But the problem 141 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.279 is that the witness, Shirley Whitehead, said that she found 142 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.800 Nancy's body at twelve forty, which means that if Thomas 143 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.079 did this, he would have had to commit this crime 144 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.000 in a window of only ten minutes and then fled 145 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.720 the scene and been completely gone before Whitehead arrived. But 146 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.199 the complication for this is you might recall the radio 147 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.920 DJ Pat Morgan, who claimed that he called the church 148 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.639 sometime between twelve fifteen and twelve thirty and had a 149 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:41.279 nine minute conversation with Nancy and Thomas, which he recorded, 150 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.720 so this conversation could be verified. So technically, if if 151 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:49.319 Althea Toth is telling the truth and Thomas arrived at 152 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.680 twelve thirty, that means that Morgan would have had to 153 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:57.240 make the phone call immediately and recorded this nine minute conversation, 154 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:00.480 and Thomas would have only had one minute to commit 155 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:04.120 the crime and flee before Shirley White had arrived at 156 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:08.000 twelve forty and discovered Nancy's body. So that makes me 157 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.720 think that toss account that she is mistaken about the time, 158 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.399 and that Thomas's count of arriving between twelve fifteen and 159 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:19.079 twelve thirty has to be accurate because Pat Morgan backs 160 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.120 it up and he has a tape recording to back 161 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:21.480 it up. 162 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.399 Yeah, I'd agree. I'm going to go with what Pat 163 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:29.240 Morgan is saying Althea TOAs I'm sure that she absolutely 164 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.399 believes that she's correct, But we know how often eyewitnesses 165 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.320 are mistaken. But we've got actual evidence here that they 166 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.360 were there at that time, or that he was there 167 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.200 at that time. Because of the tape recordings, so I 168 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.200 don't really think that's disputable exactly. 169 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.639 Yeah, So, regardless of how you look at it, it 170 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.399 seems very likely that the crime had to have taken 171 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.559 place between twelve thirty and twelve forty. And that's the 172 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:55.919 thing is that that doesn't give Thomas a lot of 173 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:58.399 time to commit the crime. But on the other hand, 174 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.120 that really doesn't give an out side party a lot 175 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:03.840 of time to commit the crime either, because if Thomas 176 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.759 is telling the truth and left at twelve thirty, that 177 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.200 means that someone else had to arrive there attack Nancy 178 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:12.320 with the hammer, and she also would have had to 179 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.320 open the safe, either under duress or maybe she was 180 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.279 doing it willingly to get change or something. And then 181 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.120 they also stole all the checks and cash inside and 182 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.399 fled the scene before Shirley Whitehead arrived. But on the 183 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:27.759 other hand, if you believe that the unidentified white haired 184 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:30.879 man sitting outside the church in the car was responsible, 185 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.120 then he already would have been there by the time 186 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.840 Thomas left, so he would have not had to travel 187 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.039 far to attack Nancy and then drive away from the scene. 188 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:41.279 Yeah, that makes sense too. 189 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:44.759 And also Raymond Starr that we have no other witnesses 190 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.360 placing him there during that window of time. But of 191 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:49.799 course he has a shaky alibi and no one can 192 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:53.759 verify his whereabouts between twelve thirty and twelve forty because 193 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.600 he claimed he was with his mother and sister, but 194 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:57.879 then his sister said, no, I did not see Raymond 195 00:09:57.879 --> 00:09:59.200 at all during this time period. 196 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:02.000 And like You've got to wonder, is he just somebody 197 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.840 who just like constructed an alibi because he was nervous 198 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.840 about being questioned, and so he just wanted to not 199 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.960 place himself there because he knows what Like, he knows 200 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.080 what happened, and he doesn't want to be blamed, so 201 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.320 he just comes up with a lie and just fabricates this. 202 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:24.279 I mean, I have no idea. This case is really 203 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:27.440 confounding because I want to say that like, oh, it's 204 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:30.679 usually the husband, but the evidence against Thomas here is 205 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:35.320 pretty weak, and the evidence against everybody is pretty weak. 206 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.919 I don't like those scratches on the face of star. 207 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.320 I feel like there could have been more questions asked 208 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.080 by the police and the investigators to his mother and sister, 209 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.440 Like does he often cut himself on his face when 210 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.639 he shaves? Is this a typical occurrence type of a situation. 211 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:54.960 But who knows if they ask those questions. 212 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.759 Yeah, I mean it sounds like they questioned him once 213 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:59.799 and then once they found out about Thomas, they put 214 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:02.840 all their focus on him. Because You're right, because he 215 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:04.840 was a forty year old man living with his mother 216 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:07.159 who had once spent time in a mental institution, so 217 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:10.759 he could have some disorders which caused him to scratch himself. 218 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.519 And because Nancy has no memory of the attack, she 219 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.200 is unable to say if she scratched her attacker. But 220 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.759 I'm not entirely sure if they checked under her fingernails 221 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.639 to find any skin or blood to indicate that she 222 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.120 had put up a fight and scratched anyone. So we 223 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.200 have no idea if those scratches were even significant. So, 224 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:29.960 even though the case against Thomas was pretty weak, I 225 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.320 have a feeling that the jury probably looked at him 226 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:35.720 very unfavorably because of the whole thing with the mistress. 227 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.159 Because they only had to deliberate for five hours before 228 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.919 they found him guilty of attempted first degree murder and 229 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:46.799 aggravated robbery, so before sensings took place, Nancy, in spite 230 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:49.639 of the guilty verdict, she was still standing by her husband, 231 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.279 so she wrote a letter to the trial judge and 232 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.639 said that she still did not believe he attacked her, 233 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.799 so she asked the judge to show him mercy during sentencing, 234 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.759 but he completely ignored this because because he wound up 235 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:05.080 giving Thomas consecutive sentences of life imprisonment plus thirty years, 236 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:08.559 so he looked like he was going to prison and 237 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:10.399 he was not going to get out. 238 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.279 I mean, he's just not a very likable guy, so 239 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.320 I can see why the jury looked at him and 240 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.519 was like, Oh, what kind of insensitive man is going 241 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.200 to move his mistress and their child into the home 242 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:25.320 while their wife is recovering. It has to be a 243 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:28.200 guilty person, and I think that it's pretty easy to 244 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:33.080 jump to that conclusion. But being a philandering ahole who 245 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.960 has just no regard for his wife and no empathy 246 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.919 to what she's going through doesn't necessarily mean that he's guilty. 247 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.600 It means that he's Maybe you could argue he's not 248 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:46.399 a good person, but I think that there just isn't 249 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.000 enough evidence to convict him. Whether or not he's innocent, 250 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.919 I don't know, but given what they actually had, I 251 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:57.080 am so surprised that a jury convicted him because it 252 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:58.759 just is such a weak case. 253 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.039 I agree it is surprising that they only deliberated for 254 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:04.320 five hours. You would think that with such a weak, 255 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.159 circumstantial case, they would have to debate about it for 256 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.639 a much longer amount of time. But I think they 257 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.720 probably just all disliked Thomas as a person and automatically 258 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:16.200 believed he must be guilty. And I think Nancy was thinking, 259 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.480 because it was such an unusual situation for a guilty 260 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.759 person to have their victim advocate for them at trial, 261 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.399 that she thought that sending this letter to the judge 262 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.120 would get Thomas aliader sentence. But it's said the opposite happened, 263 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:30.919 and he completely threw the book at him. 264 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.480 Yeah, I would think that potentially it would help. But 265 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:39.240 if the judge believes that Nancy is just completely out 266 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.799 of left field, like none of this information that she's 267 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.519 saying is factually accurate, and she's just kind of grasping 268 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.879 itst draws of like trying to hold on to whatever 269 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.559 her old life was with him as the husband and 270 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.759 her as the wife, and try to go back to that. 271 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.840 I don't think that the judge is believing what she's saying, 272 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.879 not that she's lying, but just that she doesn't remember accurately, 273 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.840 and so they've made up their mind just like the jury, 274 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:11.159 and clearly throwing the book at Thomas was what they. 275 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.840 Were going to do exactly. I mean, maybe the judge 276 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.200 felt that, well, if I let Thomas go or I 277 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.279 give him a lighte sentence, then he's going to move 278 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.720 back into Nancy and Harmer again. So I'm doing this 279 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.519 for her own good. But this is when the story 280 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:27.200 gets even crazier because in January of nineteen eighty four, 281 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.840 only a few weeks after the guilty verdict, Nancy suddenly 282 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.720 contacts Thomas's defense attorney and reveals that, oh my god, 283 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:38.000 the memories of my attack have suddenly returned, and I 284 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.360 can now say with one hundred percent certainty that the 285 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.559 man who attacked me was not Thomas, but was actually 286 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:47.159 a slender, white haired man with thick glasses. So the 287 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.679 story she provided is that this man had shown up 288 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.960 to the church to purchase tickets for the concert and 289 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.600 tried to pay with a one hundred dollars bill, but 290 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.159 since she did not have enough change on or, this 291 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.720 man convinced Nancy to go get some from the safe, 292 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:02.559 so when she bent down and opened it, he proceeded 293 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.559 to attack her with a hammer. So they had an 294 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.360 evidentiary hearing where Nancy testified under oath and shared this 295 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.159 story and said that her attack or was not her husband. 296 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:15.200 And even though I think the judge was skeptical, he said, well, 297 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.559 upon hearing this new evidence, I have no choice but 298 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.080 to overturn Thomas's conviction and award him a new trial. 299 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:26.919 And I think that's fair. I mean, it's impossible for 300 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.440 any of us to know where Nancy was coming from, 301 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.960 if she was truly just trying to save Thomas with 302 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.200 a hail Mary, or if she actually got her memory 303 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.679 back and she really did recount the things that had 304 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.480 happened to her and that it was this white haired 305 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.639 man that was potentially hanging out in the parking lot 306 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.320 that Althea and Thomas had both seen. Or maybe she 307 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:52.759 was just given that information and she somehow integrated that 308 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:58.360 into her memories and it somehow became her truth. I 309 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.879 don't know, it's just so different, dificult to know it is. 310 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.960 I mean, some people were skeptical of Nancy's story because 311 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.960 she was still standing behind her husband and she knew 312 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.960 that during the early stages of the investigation, Thomas had 313 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.519 mentioned a white haired man and he was being looked 314 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.559 at as the first potential suspect. Even if she wasn't 315 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.320 entirely sure this was the attacker, she may have decided 316 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.879 to fabricate a story and say I will provide a 317 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.639 description of a man who matches the description of this 318 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:28.519 guy seen outside the church to hopefully increase the believability 319 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:30.720 and make people believe this is what really happened. 320 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.519 It's very the fugitive one armed man coded it is. 321 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.559 Yeah, I never thought about that, but yeah, it reminds 322 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.480 me of the one armed man. So once again Thomas 323 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.639 was offered a plead deal from the state where he 324 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:46.360 could plead guilty to lesser charges only have to do 325 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.639 a few years in prison, but once again he rejected it, 326 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:51.879 saying that I will not go to prison for something 327 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.399 I didn't do. So we're going to trial again and 328 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.679 I'm going to be found not guilty and get my 329 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:01.600 name cleared. So the prosecution to destroy the credibility of 330 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.920 Nancy's story, as they got a neurosurgeon who examined her 331 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.319 to testify that this sort of thing is very uncommon, 332 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.680 Like I've worked with other people who have suffered serious 333 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.559 brain injuries, and I have never seen a case where 334 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.559 one of them suddenly regains their memories of the attack 335 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.440 they suffered. So there was some suspicion that Nancy may 336 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.319 have fabricated this story to help her husband, and one 337 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.160 psychiatrists who examined her wrote a report in which they stated, quote, 338 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.480 I do believe that missus Drake is susceptible to undue 339 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.200 influence by her husband, and I believe that her love 340 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.839 for Thomas approaches the neurotic or obsessional level end quote. 341 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:41.759 And that was kind of the vibe that I was 342 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:46.000 getting based on all the information that she had about 343 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.640 him and what he'd done with the mistress and the child, 344 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.440 moving them in and still choosing to support him. I'm 345 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.839 not going to judge her because she's been through such 346 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.279 a trauma, and I can't imagine what that would be like. 347 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.880 Your whole world comes crop down. And I don't know 348 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.160 what her friend group was like, if she had a 349 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.559 lot of other connections outside of the church, or she 350 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.839 had a lot of support, what her family relationships were like, 351 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.880 or if Thomas was like the main source of support 352 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.720 and that person that she really felt like, even though 353 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.079 he wasn't a good husband in a lot of respects, 354 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.119 it might have felt like he was all that she 355 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.359 had and she wanted to cling onto that. So it's 356 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:28.839 it's really difficult. 357 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.960 It is, yeah, I mean, you don't want to like 358 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:33.440 accuse like a victim of such a horrible crime of 359 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.640 intentionally lying, But it could be a thing where she 360 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.440 felt that Thomas was her only support system, so she 361 00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:41.680 had to stick by him no matter what, even if 362 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.759 she wasn't completely sure that he was innocent. But there 363 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.279 was another whole poke in her story because the church's 364 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.079 pastor and associate pastor would testify that they had visited 365 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.359 the church on the morning of the attack, only a 366 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:58.200 few hours before Nancy was hey with the hammer and 367 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.240 asked her how the concert tickets sales were going, and 368 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:03.839 she said she had collected about six hundred dollars and 369 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.160 proceeded to open her death drawer, which showed that she 370 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.960 had a bunch of cash and checks in there, and 371 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.599 this seemed to contradict her claims because she said that 372 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.079 the reason she had to open the safe is because 373 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.920 she didn't have enough change for a one hundred dollars 374 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.599 bill from the white haired man, So why would she 375 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.400 need to do that if she had six hundred dollars 376 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.680 inside the death drawer. But in fairness, it's possible that 377 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.440 she could have put that money in the safe at 378 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.359 a later time after the pastor's left, and so she 379 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.319 didn't have any change by the time the white haired 380 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:32.960 man arrived. 381 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.960 And it's also possible too that she's not intentionally fabricating 382 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.359 the story, that maybe Thomas has just given her information 383 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:44.440 over and over again, and like the way that she's 384 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.680 integrating that information, she's kind of like conflating that with 385 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.240 what actually happened, or maybe what little memory she might 386 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.440 have had about that day, and it somehow becomes her 387 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.880 reality because he's drilling it into her. If she's susceptible 388 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.720 to his, you know, undue influence and is romantically obsessed 389 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.079 with him in the way that the psychiatrist is describing, 390 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:08.240 I think it's possible that she can almost be brainwashed 391 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.039 into believing that this is what she remembers. If Thomas 392 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.640 does have that Svengali like hold over her. 393 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.200 I mean that is possible because we do know that 394 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.240 she was frequently visiting him in the County Jail while 395 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.079 he was awaiting in trial. So, for all we know, 396 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.160 maybe he was saying, I'm not sure if this is 397 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.160 exactly what happened, but it might be helpful if you 398 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:28.640 tell the jury that you were attacked by a white 399 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.240 haired man, and this is the explanation you're going to 400 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.960 give when you ask why you open the safe and stuff. 401 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.240