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When Bill Payne and Billy Jean Hayworth began 53 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:00.479 their romance, they unknowingly set in motion a diabolic plot 54 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.479 that would end with them murdered in their own home, 55 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:08.240 Hayworth holding their mercifully unharmed infant. Chris was a CI 56 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:12.840 agent who was concerned about Janelle, seeing the cyberbullying she 57 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.159 had endured and worried for her safety. Chris got in 58 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:20.479 touch with Janelle's protective parents and her devoted boyfriend, warning 59 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:23.120 them that Pain and Hayworth were a danger to Janelle. 60 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.080 He got especially close with Janelle's mother, Barbara, who thought 61 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:29.879 of Chris like a son, though she had never met him. 62 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.240 Chris claimed that surveillance of Pain and Hayworth revealed that 63 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.039 the two of them were planning on harming Janelle, that 64 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.240 it was imminent and that something needed to be done immediately. 65 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.319 Chris promised that he would have their back if they 66 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.479 were to act to protect Janelle, and so they did. 67 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.520 Janelle's father, Buddy, and her boyfriend Jamie broke into the 68 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.479 home of Pain and Hayworth and murdered them in their 69 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.240 own home, but the police investigation turned up though made 70 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:59.919 this crime all the more terrifying. Janelle had been Ris 71 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:04.039 yes the entire time, catfishing her family and her boyfriend 72 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.800 to act in vengeance on her behalf. Using forensic linguistics 73 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.400 and driving through the brambles that Chanelle laid to cover 74 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.719 her tracks, police were able to put together a chilling 75 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.600 portrait of a sociopath made all the more ruthless by 76 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:23.560 the anonymity of her online life. Bizarre and unforgettable, Dennis 77 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.399 Brooks examines the crime and trial from all angles, bringing 78 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.680 his expertise as the lead prosecutor in the strange and 79 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.439 disturbing case. The book that we're featuring this Eating is 80 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.439 Too Pretty to Live. The catfishing Murders of East Tennessee 81 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.800 with my special guest, journalist and author and prosecutor Dennis Brooks. 82 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.839 Welcome to the program and thank you for a Greediness interview. 83 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:50.920 Dennis Brooks, Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. 84 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:57.600 Incredible tale. Can you tell us a little bit about 85 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:02.000 your background, Dennis, and how you came to want to 86 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.199 write this book and how you came in a position 87 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:06.879 to be able to write this book. 88 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:11.360 Well, I'm in my mid forties. I grew up in 89 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.480 East Tennessee, in the the foothills of the mountains that 90 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.560 border North Carolina, and I actually had an aspiration to 91 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.240 be a writer when I was young, and actually got 92 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.959 to be a sports writer for the local paper while 93 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.959 I was in college, and somehow gravitated towards the law. 94 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.000 I graduated from University of Tennessee back in ninety eight 95 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.439 and got a job with the local DA's office here 96 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.439 where I grew up, and I've been here ever since, 97 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.639 and somehow I've stumbled into going back to being so 98 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.439 of a part time writer as well. So it's been 99 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:53.319 an interesting journey. And you know, over the time as 100 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.920 a prosecutor, I guess I gained some kind of a 101 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.480 niche in prosecuting the murders in the air, a lot 102 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:05.079 of the bigger ones. And we had a very shocking 103 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:10.360 double murder in Johnson County, which is on the very 104 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:14.199 northeast tip of the state. It borders Virginia in North Carolina, 105 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.800 and I was asked to assist in the case, and 106 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.560 that began the most interesting journey I've had in my 107 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:24.639 prosecuting career. 108 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:30.879 Now, set the stage for our audience and tell us 109 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:37.560 where this crime occurred and described the area for our audience, 110 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:38.600 if you could, please. 111 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.040 Yeah, it happened in Mountain City or just outside the 112 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:47.240 city limits. There's actually a Tennessee prison basically across the 113 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.720 road from the scene of the crime. But Mountain City 114 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.959 is the county seat of Johnson County. It's got a 115 00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:00.439 very small population. There's basically three grocery stores. Johnson County's 116 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:06.519 mostly mountainous and there's I forget twelve thousand to fifteen 117 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.279 thousand people live in the county completely, you know, in total, 118 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.839 and you know it's it's the kind of place where 119 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.920 everybody knows everybody. There's not a lot of secrets. You 120 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.040 run into everybody at the post office or the grocery store. 121 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:23.040 It's you know, it's a very friendly collection of people. 122 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:27.360 You know, a lot of god fearing type, you know, 123 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.279 people as you would expect in the South. And you know, 124 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.759 this of course happened just outside Mountain City. 125 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:45.240 Now, tell us a little bit about Barbara and about Buddy. 126 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.720 And first tell us about Buddy because he's a Vietnam 127 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:51.399 that so tell us a little bit about Buddy and 128 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:53.639 a little bit about his background. 129 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.000 Yeah, but he had a family I can't remember if 130 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.240 he grew up actually in Johnson Canty family around in there, 131 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.000 and you know, he had gone off to join the 132 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:13.079 Marines as a teenager and went to Vietnam and uh, yeah, 133 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.279 we there. There was talk from the Potter family that 134 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.720 he had been involved in CIA missions while there, and 135 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:21.959 you know, there's no way to confirm or deny that 136 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.600 kind of kind of thing. Uh, but he, you know, 137 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:30.360 he came back to the States after his service, had 138 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.720 a workplace type accident that disabled him physically. So he 139 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.759 collected basically disability check for you know, the rest of 140 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:42.440 his adult life. He had he had married Barbara very 141 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:47.440 early in his adulthood and they you know, they were 142 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:50.200 in their fifties by the time the crime occurred. So, 143 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.279 you know, they'd been married for a good long while. 144 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.600 Most of their married life had happened had occurred up 145 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:00.159 in Pennsylvania on the outskirts of Philadelphia, and there they 146 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:05.600 raised two children, Christie and Janelle, Janelle being the younger 147 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:10.159 of the two. And then they later moved to Tennessee 148 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.600 to Johnson County because Barbara's mother was ill and she 149 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:17.879 was i think power of attorney for her mother, and 150 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.480 so she moved to get closer to her. 151 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.039 Now, tell us a little bit about Barbara, and does 152 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:29.840 the mother die and then so there's a difference in 153 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.559 obviously it's affects Barbara. So tell us a little bit 154 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.919 about Barbara and just her some of her behavior. 155 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.480 Well, you know, to look at Barbara, she didn't you know, 156 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:49.120 she looks, you know, like anyone else. There's nothing, there's nothing, 157 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:53.679 you know, particularly unusual about her. And you know, we 158 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.360 were able to study her writings to a great extent 159 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.480 in this case because when you put her in front 160 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.000 of a computer and have her type of email, she 161 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.200 will she will write a book. She's the type of 162 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:09.120 person that it takes you know, five minutes for her 163 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.080 to say goodbye. In an email. So, uh, we we 164 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:15.240 were able to get to know her very well. She 165 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.600 held herself out to be a good Christian woman, a 166 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:23.720 very upstanding person. But you know from from studying, you know, 167 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.200 not just this case, but you know years past, that 168 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.440 she's the type of person who always there's a conflict 169 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.519 going on, There's there's some kind of conspiracy going on, 170 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.320 and and uh, you know, we've never had the benefit 171 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.039 of any kind of psychological profile being done on her, 172 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:47.200 but you know, there's obviously some abnormality about her. You know, basically, 173 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.759 just to put it in a nutshell, if if a 174 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.519 person had a conflict with her, she would automatically in 175 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.080 her mind believe that person wanted to have her dead 176 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.399 or wanted her to die or kill her. And that 177 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.320 that goes back just to like a state issues concerning 178 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.440 her mother and then continued on through this case. It 179 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.080 was just she's got this conspiratorial mind where there's always 180 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.279 something going on. It's very unusual now you talk about 181 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:22.519 that and sort of this obviously disconnect from reality. So 182 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:27.279 what was the relationship like between her buddy and his 183 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.759 wife Barbara. Did he go along with that, did he 184 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.600 tolerate it? Did he recognize it is mental illness. What 185 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.440 was the dynamic of the relationship in that regard? They 186 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.320 seemed to be two peas in a pod. They had 187 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:46.840 very close relationship, very loyal to one another, there's no question. 188 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:52.200 But he loved her and Janelle to a great extent. 189 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.799 And you know, it was harder for us to analyze 190 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.360 Buddy because he wasn't might use the computer, so we 191 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:02.480 didn't have benefit of a lot of his writings so 192 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:05.360 we could get inside his head. We just basically had 193 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:11.039 a few audio taped or videotaped interviews of him to 194 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.919 benefit from try to get some insight into him. But 195 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.120 from all indications, he loved his family a great deal, 196 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:19.039 at least those two. 197 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:24.600 Was there any alcoholism involved with Barbara or Buddy? It 198 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.559 was a heavy drinkers or social drinkers. What was that situation. 199 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.159 I don't think they drank at all. I don't think 200 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:34.240 they ever used drugs. Whatever was wrong, it wasn't because 201 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:35.080 of those two reasons. 202 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:41.080 Now, tell us a little bit about Christy, but more 203 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.639 importantly Janelle. He said, Janelle's younger daughter. What was life 204 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.200 like for Christy in terms of with this dynamic with 205 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:54.200 Barbara being not in touch with reality and the disabled 206 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:59.639 father and then tell us about Janelle and her disabilities. 207 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.879 Well, Christie was maybe six eight years older than Janelle, 208 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.279 and you know, we've you know, we were able to 209 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.519 get to know Christie and find out she was a normal, 210 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.519 functioning member of society. I think she described it. She 211 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.279 had a decent enough childhood, but as she got older, 212 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.039 I believe there was more and more conflicts between her 213 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.480 and her mother in particular, and a lot of conflicts 214 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:32.759 arose because of Janelle. Janelle grew up with an auditory 215 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:39.159 processing problem. And you know, basically, as Christie described it, 216 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.960 you know, if you if, if if I joke to 217 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:45.240 you that, you know, Ham want to whip your tail outside, 218 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:48.519 and I do it in a joking manner, if you 219 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.200 said the same thing to Janelle, she wouldn't be able 220 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:55.360 to process that tone. She would take those words literally. 221 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.879 So she was basically born with that kind of deffect 222 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:05.840 and that probably held back her education process and she 223 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.879 she basically became a special ed student and actually got 224 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:11.919 a high school diploma, but it was in a special 225 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:16.000 education category. And to hear Christy tell it, you know, 226 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:21.240 her her younger sister was coddled too, much by her parents. 227 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:21.759 And. 228 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.120 As she described it, learned she learned to take advantage 229 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.799 of her parents and exploit that and learned to manipulate 230 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:33.759 her And and that's something that we saw very evident 231 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:36.480 in the evidence in this case is that, you know, 232 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:42.399 while Janelle was possibly operating at a at a lower 233 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:48.120 intellectual level, she had quite a remarkable ability to manipulate people. 234 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:55.519 Did you see any psychologist. Was there any diagnosis of 235 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:59.559 anything with Janelle other than her physical disabilities? Was there 236 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.639 any diagnosis from a psychologist or a psychiatrist. No. 237 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.440 And I do need to add that Janelle, after she 238 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.799 got out of high school, she never had a job. 239 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.320 She immediately started collecting a disability check as well. So 240 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.840 at the time of our crimes, Janelle is thirty years old. 241 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:19.240 She's never left the home, she's never left the care 242 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:23.840 of her parents, and never worked had a real substantial, 243 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:31.200 you know, romantic relationship to speak of now. And I 244 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:33.600 was discussing this with a lawyer today because he was 245 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.480 asking me that same question about what were the psychologists saying, Well, 246 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.600 they really say anything in this case because and as 247 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.440 we found out, one was actually hired at doctor Ingham 248 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.080 out of Knoxville was hired on Janelle's behalf, and he 249 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.919 testified at trial, but basically he just limited his findings 250 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.759 to her IQ and described her as functioning at a 251 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.440 fifth grade level. But when it came down to the 252 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.919 ideas of you know, was she not guilty by reason 253 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.639 of insanity or did she have diminished mental capacity? He 254 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.159 couldn't make an opinion on that because she had denied 255 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.399 being involved in the case at all, in the crime. 256 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.919 And basically, when psychologists are faced with someone that's telling them, 257 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:19.799 you know, I didn't do that, I wasn't involved, then 258 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:24.679 they really can't render opinions on those topics. So we 259 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.000 were without benefit of an actual diagnosis. 260 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.639 Now, what was the We talked about a little bit 261 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.759 about what had happened with Buddy, but what was his 262 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:39.759 real state of health when we're talking about this time 263 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.320 here in twenty and twelve. 264 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:45.679 Well, he had a prescription of an oxygen machine. I 265 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.360 don't think he had it on all the time, but 266 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:49.720 you know, quite often he'd have to use that, And 267 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.240 I think he had a walker prescribed to him. But 268 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:55.240 you know, he was able to walk on his own, 269 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:59.679 maybe not fast, not quickly, but he was able to 270 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.279 get around. But it became very important in how he 271 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.319 analyzed the case, the fact that he wasn't as mobile 272 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.359 as the victims that we we had in our case. 273 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.240 Now for audience too, can you just describe buddy and 274 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.599 you know, sort of size wise and stature, and tell 275 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.640 us again what Janelle looks like as well. 276 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.279 Yeah, yeah, but he's a pretty good sized guy. He's 277 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.799 he's a bit portly, but you know, tall and you know, 278 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.400 if he goes out in public, he always has the 279 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.960 veteran's hat on. You know, he's very proud of his 280 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.720 service to his country. And he he had guns glory. 281 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.079 When they did a search warn on his house, I 282 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.319 think they pulled up over one hundred guns or so 283 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.759 in the home. And when he would mow the yard, 284 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.880 he would have two guns on his on one on 285 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:57.400 each hip in a belt when he's mowing the yard. 286 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:02.839 So you know, we we have Carrie permits in Tennessee 287 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.759 and he took full advantage of it. So if he 288 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.359 went to the grocery store, he had a gun on. Uh. 289 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.880 Janelle was a tallish type woman. She's probably close to 290 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.079 six foot tall, a little bit lanky, gangly when she walked. 291 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.160 She on her Facebook page she loved taking selfies of herself, 292 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.079 and some of them didn't look so bad. Some of 293 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:28.440 them looked, you know, not so great. But from from 294 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:33.319 from what I could glean from how she carried on 295 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.160 on Facebook, I took it she was very self conscious 296 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.799 about her looks. She would, you know, not to jump 297 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:42.680 into the head of the story, but when when she 298 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.000 would pose as someone else on the internet talking about herself, 299 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:49.799 she would always remark how pretty and sweet and kind 300 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.039 Janelle was. And that was sort of an early telltale 301 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:56.960 sign that you know, anybody saying those things are probably 302 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.319 going to be Janelle Potter. 303 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:05.720 Right now. We talked about what at least we've described 304 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.000 how protective her parents were, and you talked about when 305 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:17.200 she's thirty years old, still no significant relationship whatsoever. But 306 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.400 tell us what, let's go back just a little bit. 307 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:23.119 What is the characteristic of the relationship she has as 308 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.160 well that she when she does meet someone, what is 309 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:31.599 her reaction. You talked about this auditory issue where she 310 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.279 would not hear the sort of tone and inflection will say, 311 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.279 or the intention of what the person was saying correctly, 312 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.559 but how did she take relationships when she would meet people? 313 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:47.319 What was her characteristic to that behavior. 314 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.279 Yeah. Yeah, of course I never had the benefit of 315 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.839 experiencing that firsthand. But we had a lot of people 316 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.720 that would tell us that she would come up to 317 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.119 them in the grocery store and be overly friendly and 318 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.079 want to hug them and take pictures with them. And 319 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:06.920 you know, the people in John's County are pretty friendly, 320 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.519 but they they they're like anybody else that seems a 321 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.039 little odd from someone that you don't know. It's like 322 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:18.160 she she really wanted to belong to groups of other 323 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.519 people and be popular and be liked, but either either 324 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.000 because of her own personality or things that she basically 325 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:30.279 learned from Barbara Potter, h she she had a difficult 326 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:36.480 time maintaining those relationships. She she wound up being befriended 327 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:42.200 by Tracy Greenwell, who was the sister of one of 328 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.880 our victims in our case, and years before the killings, 329 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.640 Tracy had tried to uh she basically felt sorry for 330 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.359 Janelle and thought, you know, she needed a friend and 331 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.279 somebody to take her to the mall, and you know, 332 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.119 just a good girlfriend. And and one thing that was 333 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.200 really odd about it, she said that when she asked 334 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.200 Janelle about going, you know, to go eat or that 335 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:08.559 kind of thing. Tracy actually had to meet Janelle's parents 336 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.119 so that they could get to know her and basically 337 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.640 almost interview her to get permission to drive their daughter around, 338 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:21.799 which is extremely unusual because that's an adult daughter, and 339 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:24.559 you know, it's just two girls wanting to be friends. 340 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.000 Having to go through an audition process of sorts with 341 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.839 the parents, that's extremely unusual. 342 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.720 Now, we talked about how protective her parents are and 343 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:40.720 that she had no significant relationship. So let's introduce Jamie 344 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.119 Kurd and how did she come in this protective cocoon 345 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.960 that her parents had for her in her life? How 346 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:53.279 on earth did she meet this Jamie Kurd under what circumstances? 347 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:58.480 Well, it emanated from that friendship with Tracy Greenwell, by 348 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.039 getting to know Tracy and hanging out with her, she 349 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.480 was able to meet Bill Payne, who was Tracy's brother 350 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.440 and one of the victims in our case. And by 351 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.720 all intents and purposes, for a long time, Bill was 352 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:15.799 friends with Janelle and at some point, of course, Janelle 353 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.359 at the time of the crimes is thirty without any 354 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.799 kind of significant relationship. But at the time of our crimes, 355 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.799 also Jamie Kurd, who was Bill and Tracy's cousin. Jamie 356 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.440 was thirty eight years old and everyone in the community 357 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.319 told us he had never in his life had a girlfriend. 358 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.440 He was a very socially backward awkward individual. He did 359 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.759 get out of his house and have a job and work, 360 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:46.279 but he was he was basically very I think Investigation 361 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:49.160 Discovery called him the creepy cousin, and it might be 362 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.680 a pretty good description. And they wound up introducing Janelle 363 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.240 and Jamie together. They thought, well, this, this might be 364 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:00.000 a good match because they both need someone in their life. 365 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:07.640 And Janelle started to call Jamie. And the problem was Jamie, 366 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.319 he's a little bit rough looking. And of course Barbara 367 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.759 Potter is an upstanding member of society, has a very 368 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.680 elevated view of herself, and she did not think Jamie 369 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.480 was suitable as a boyfriend for Janelle. So Jamie and 370 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.440 Janelle had to then conduct their relationship behind the scenes 371 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.359 in secret. 372 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.839 And really the focus of this book, or the central 373 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.799 I guess issue in this book is something called catfishing, 374 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.640 but we won't talk about that quite yet. But what 375 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:47.640 you do describe in the book is something I guess 376 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.200 a lot of us don't think of that live in 377 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:53.920 urban areas. Is the importance of the Internet and Facebook. 378 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.279 So tell us a little bit about Janelle and how 379 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.640 important Facebook and the Internet was for her in her life. 380 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:04.759 Well, it's it's, you know, the Internet sort of become 381 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.880 the great equalizer. You know, you don't have to live 382 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:10.480 in the municipality to make, you know, to make friendships, 383 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:13.759 reformed bonds with people. Uh, the Internet can allow you 384 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.200 to do that. So that was sort of you know, 385 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:21.319 it seemed like Janelle's escape from her boring life was 386 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:24.279 to get on the Internet and make friends with other people. 387 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.359 And uh, she she spent a tremendous amount of time 388 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:31.920 on the on the computer. It created a lot of 389 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:36.359 conflict with other people because inevitably people would defriend her 390 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.799 or you know, unfriended her because she would get out 391 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:41.880 of line in the in the things she would say, 392 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:46.400 and her parents would get upset. They actually had the 393 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:48.759 nine to one one director there in Johnson County at 394 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.319 one point had defriended her over you know, something she 395 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:56.119 had said, and uh, Janelle's parents actually took her down 396 00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:59.240 the sheriff and basically wanted to do a report on 397 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:02.680 the nine one one director defriending their daughter, and uh 398 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:10.119 that that's obviously extremely strange behavior, but you know that 399 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.480 that was her way of interacting with the world. Unfortunately 400 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:16.359 she misused it great a great deal. 401 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.839