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Speaker 1: How the word faith only shows up at the end

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of arguments for God. You hear God exists because the

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universe had to come from somewhere, because morality needs a source,

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because miracles do happen, And when each of those arguments crumble,

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you'll hear the infamous phrase, well you just have to

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have faith. Faith is the last dying gasp of a sputtering,

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bad argument, the emergency exit when reason catches fire. It's

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like running out of AMMO in a debate and throwing

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the empty gun as your final weapon. Faith doesn't explain God.

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It's an admission that you've got no actual evidence for

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your God. And if the best you can do is

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tell us to believe in things without evidence, then you've

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lost the argument. But congratulations, you did win a consolation prize,

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a gold medal in mental gymnastics. So get your leotard ready.

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Today's your day. The lines are open and the show

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starts now. Welcome friends. Today is September fourteenth, twenty twenty five.

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I'm your host, Justin You might know me. Elsewhere is

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Deconstruction Zone, and I'm joined by the fabulous Jim Burrows.

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Great to see a friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great to see you too, second time in a row.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we were able to do it twice in a month.

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That's exciting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and hopefully, you know, this week we get some

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callers who can actually answer yes to no questions and

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when they say the Bible says something, I can give

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us chapter and verse. But I don't hold out for

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that level of competence today, So we'll see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: Though it is impressive because you know, we're told that

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faith can move mountains and that you know, they'll be

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able to do anything through Christ. But it's weird that

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the simplest things they can't do, like just say yes

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or no to an easy question. But we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and anything except you know, regrow limbs fix You know,

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I still wear glasses, although I don't wear them when

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I'm sitting in front of a computer. None of these

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things seem to be to be fixed, right except by

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Charlatans and proven Charlatans who can do that. So where

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is all that?

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Speaker 1: But Jim, your eyes have been finely tuned for those glasses.

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You just don't understand.

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Speaker 2: I'd say, my glasses, well they're not so Finally, teened anymore,

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I needed a new prescription. But I think it's the

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other way around. But I could be wrong, you know,

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we could all be wrong about this. Human body could

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be finally designed. Even the spinal cord is a complete disaster,

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you know, it should It doesn't have the proper support

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for a vertical column that it should. You know, why

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are our ribs so high up, given that almost all

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predators are shorter than us, leaving our stomach wide up

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at an unprotected It's almost like we were designed to

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maybe walk on all fours at some point, and our

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bodies just haven't adapted, you would think. But yeah, I

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mean otherwise we're perfectly designed, right, I mean that's why

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we catch colds, oh of course, right.

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Speaker 1: And then the same virus DNA gets itself into our genome,

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and we have thousands of endogenous retroviruses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, including just one that you know separates us

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from from chimpanzees. But yeah, I mean, honestly, if if

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I as a software engineer, are you you're software engineer too? Right?

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Speaker 3: Or just so?

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Speaker 1: I was an electrical engineer for about twenty years, but

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I probably spent more of my time programming software than

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anything else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if you or I wrote software the way

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DNA is written, we'd be fired. And because it's just graptastic.

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You don't need that many AIRHRM mechanisms if you write

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could code in the first place, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: And the amount of dead code that is coded quotations

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that's in our body is preposterous. If you had that

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amount of dead code in your program, they'd fire you

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and hire an intern to it for you. It's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just same like being a double E.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: Could you imagine, you know, designing it chip or some

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electrical component with a bunch of stuff that just doesn't

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work for no reason.

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Speaker 1: It worked thirty iterations ago that we copied it from.

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But don't worry, it's it's fine.

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Speaker 2: It's the top notch, right or copiers? I mean, how

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many times a day do we we copy a file

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from one place to the other, And if we had

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the error mechanisms or the error rate that our DNA has,

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we'd get nothing copied, right, just moving from place to place. Yeah, indeed,

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you know these streams are copied, so guess what the

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streams wouldn't work that well? So where is all this?

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You know? Perfect engineering that's supposed to have been done.

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Because if God exists, you need to type his engineering

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license revoked.

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Speaker 4: Jim.

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Speaker 1: You have to have faith, remember, just have to have faith.

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Speaker 2: I have faith that if God actually did the things

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that he is claimed of him in terms of engineering,

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that the world would be much much worse.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I have to agree if the God, like that's just

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i'd in, like the Bible of the churn and whatnot,

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if that God really does design some stuff I've honestly,

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it seems like it might be worse than what we

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have here, like the If there was a God that

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designed this environment, it's got to be some sort of

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a theistic god, not in one of these books, because

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the God in one of these books is horrific. These

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are not good books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, he can't even get

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how to motivate humans, right, because according to psychology, the

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worst thing you can do is delay reward or punishment,

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and the next worst thing is delayed punishment. That is

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the worst motivator is delayed punishment. And yet that's all

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God really has. So you know what happens to internal motivation,

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which is the best way to motivate somebody to do

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what you want. None of that appears in the Bible.

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It's all heaven later, mana later, this, you know whatever.

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It's never anything now which would work, or nothing but

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punishment punishment reward, which is not nearly is effective. Is

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finding ways to internally motivate people. He'd think if he

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made us, he would know that.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's just beyond an understanding. We just don't get

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We don't get him.

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Speaker 2: It's okay, Oh yeah, So basically the unsustify the means

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kind where we're at. Oh no, that's not moral.

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Speaker 1: Well, we've got a couple of people in the queue.

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It looks like either mostly atheists so far. If you're

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a theist and you want us to know about your God,

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or you want to prove us wrong and tell us

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why indeed your God is real and atheists are silly,

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call the number on the screen. We'd love to hear

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from you. And with that, let me read the introduction

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and we'll get our first guests in here. The Atheist

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Experience is the product of the Atheist Community of Austin,

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a five A one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to

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the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the

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separation of religion and government, and those sound like things

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we really need right now. So like and share and

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share a lot, friends, We're going to grab. The first

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in line name appears to be Mary from North Carolina,

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and the text says working through deconstruction makes me feel guilty.

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I get that, Mary, Can you hear us?

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Speaker 4: I can thank you for taking my call?

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Speaker 1: Sure thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been deconstructing since two thousand and eight, and

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I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, but it

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was more like a commune. We lived with everybody, and

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scripture is still so ingrained in my heart. When I'm

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asking or answering these questions, I still feel this guilt,

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like I'm betraying God.

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Speaker 1: Sure so, I mean you spent what multiple decades in

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a legalistic religious framework, and you've been deconstructing for how

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many years? Did I hear?

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Speaker 2: Eight?

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Speaker 4: Since two thousand and eight and then went back twice?

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Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, well that happens too. Actually, yeah, so well,

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let me ask you a question. It took me a

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long time to deconstruct as well. Mine wasn't entirely linear,

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and I don't know if everybody's is. What were the

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factors that first made you question, and then the follow

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up is what made you go back.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I went to college, I went to community college,

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and my pastor was actually concerned. He told me that

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he seed a lot of good women lose their faith

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and leave their marriage when they go to higher education, right,

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And I was guarded against that, but I saw a

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different worldview and started questioning things. I had some really

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good teachers, especially in religious studies, and started to learn

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about other religions and mythologies around them and started questioning

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my own. And then my brother introduced me to Sam

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Harris and Christopher Hitchins, and I finally let go of

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the idea of hell, and that really made me feel

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free to explore what I believed and ask questions. And

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the second one was I was going to a Baptist

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church and that we did this bishop's song study asking

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the questions. It was a very liberal Baptist church that

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I was going to, and that started another phase for me.

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But I went back because of the community. I had

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lost all my friend and some family, and I kept

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going back and it was a very emotional service, a

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lot of praise and worship, and I missed that that

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really kind of feeling of the spirit and the connection.

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But I just couldn't sit through the sermons. It just

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was I just had a dichotomy in my head for

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a little while.

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Speaker 1: I get that the community is one of the things

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I hear the most when people are deconstructing. I miss

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a community, and some of them lost their families too,

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Like I miss a community and I miss my family, right,

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And I think that that's a pretty normal thing to do,

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and it's hard to find new community. You spent your

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whole life building this community, and you know you don't

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want to spend the rest of your life building another community, right,

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So I really understand where you're coming from there. It

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sounds to me like you you want to be part

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of it for the community, even though you don't necessarily

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believe it anymore. Is that an accurate description?

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Speaker 6: That is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, well maybe something to think about.

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Speaker 7: And the one thing that money.

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Speaker 4: Is I discovered your show last week and and just

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hearing you talk about the Bible, and so I ordered

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the Skeptics Annotated Bible because I wanted to study the

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Bible a different way, and I think that will help

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me a lot.

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Speaker 2: For sure, there's a there's a number of really good resources.

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Richard Carrier has got some really good resources. I'm skipping

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I'm forgetting a name. The other one that Christians who's

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an atheist now Bible scholar man, Yeah, yeah, Barerment has

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some really good stuff. Yeah, And these are just courses

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you can take. They do charge a little bit, but

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it's not It's well worth it because these are actual

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scholars that you're learning from, and you're learning it from

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a scholarly point of view if you only kind of

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want to study it from that, and then find other

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Bible scholars, not just preachers or apologies, because they have

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a different viewpoint. They are trying to make sense of

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the Bible, whereas the scholars are actually, uh trying to

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make put it in its historical context and figure out

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where it comes from. Elaine Peggles is another one who's

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really really good on that. And then once you start

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there with those folks, you can you'll branch out into

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more scholarly work where they're actually looking at the history

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and not all scholars, not all these scholars are atheists.

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By the way, I think Elaine Peggles is still a Christian.

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She may be the only one we've mentioned that is,

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but the vast majority of biblical scholars are are theists,

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so and they have to juxtapose their belief with what

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they know, which is why Kip Davis, Yeah, there's another one.

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If you want anything about the Dead Sea Scrolls. He's

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kind of the the guy for the Dead Sea Scrolls

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because he's done the most work on them, starting with

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his pre doctor and if I remember correctly, and his

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post and his doctoral and post doc work is all

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on Dead Sea Scrolls. So, but you're talking about the community,

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and yeah, that's the hardest thing. Just find a secular community,

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meet up, Facebook, you know, list come out, you know,

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three or four or five things that you really like

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to do. Go find groups that are doing that on

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Facebook or meetup and go do it with them, and

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you can build up a really nice community, a really

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tight community of friends. It's hard, but you can definitely

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do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I joined one of those in Greensboro years ago, but

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when COVID came they stopped, so I might find one again.

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Those are good suggestions.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard, but you you know, you kind of

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have to, as they used to say in dating yet,

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to put yourself out there. One of my best friends

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I actually met one night when I was just out

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grabbing a beer. We just happened to find each other

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at a bar. I sat next to them. It turned

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out that we were interested in the same stuff. I

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found out that he grew up not far from where

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I grew up, and we've been friends now for twenty years,

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and his friends became my friend. I had like a

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whole new community that I adopted. So like, sometimes just

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like getting yourself to leave the house and go do

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something social and getting to push yourself to interact with

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people that you haven't met yet can really open up

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a lot of doors. Now, Listen, I've gone out before.

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I met some hervit people that I never want to

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see again. But I've also met some very delightful people

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just by getting out and forcing myself to be social.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you, I'll do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe I'll just add one more thing storry

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to pile on, Like it's okay if you're still like

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friends in socialized with the people in your church, Like

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I understand that there's a little bit that you feel

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that division in you because well I don't believe this

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stuff anymore, right, but like you know, most of my friends,

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friends and families still believe as well, and if I

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get to go to church and see them, I'm perfectly

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happy to do so. In fact, I'll be going to

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a service not too long from now, right, So I

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understand that that aspect of it, and there's nothing wrong

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with that. And I don't know if you need to

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feel weird or guilty about that, as long as you're

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not like leading them on making them think that you're

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back in the faith again.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I have quite a few friends that are that are

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Christians because I'm in a twelve step program as well,

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and we just we just don't talk about that. We

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just because they know that my higher power is different

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than theirs, and so the reason we're together is to

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stay sober, and so we talk about different things. So

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I have a lot of people in my circle that

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are believers, and we're still very good friends. They don't

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try to change my mind. I don't try to change theirs.

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You know.

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Speaker 1: It's good. Well, congrats of being sober. That's a huge achievement.

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Speaker 2: Yes, three years, Thank you, congratulations. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: W thank you well, Mary, thanks so much for calling.

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It was delightful to hear from you.

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Speaker 4: Well, thanks for taking my call. You have a good day.

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Speaker 1: They have a good one.

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Speaker 2: That is time, Jim. Yeah, finding community again and rebuilding it,

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especially if it's like she said, she's coming from a

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commune type situation where they're all of it on the

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same compound. It sounds like, so you have that tight

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knit community built in. But it's amazing you can go

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find you know, there's you know, I do scuba diving

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and I drive drive my jeep off road as much

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as I can. Those are two very different communities. But

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there's still very secular communities. And guess what, God doesn't

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come up hardly at all. And I'm in South Alabama.

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I have two hours to the east and be in

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Georgia in an out you know hour maybe less to

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the south. I'm in Florida, so I'm right in that corner.

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I've got probably four churches within walking distance of me.

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So you know, if we're not talking about it, you

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can definitely find it. But you do have to go

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out and you do have to, you know, find it.

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And that's why I says, you know, come up with

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like four or five things you like to do or

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might like to do, and then go find this. Those

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places keep yourself kind of busy while you figure out

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what's gonna work and what isn't. You're likely enough to

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do with other people. And if you it's if it's

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something where everyone's doing kind of the same thing or

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working towards the same goal, it gives you that same

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type of community feeling because that's exactly what you're doing.

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You know, in a church, et cetera. Is working towards

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a goal, working towards a thing. And so even if

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it's just something like you know, we go out and

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drive along the coast, that's all doing the same kind

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of thing. We all have the same kinds of experiences.

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So yeah, I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 1: Find people that you enjoyed doing things with. Join a club.

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I've met great friends by joining adult clubs. You'd be

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surprised there's a lot of adult clubs out there. But

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we've got some super chats and some more guests. Let's

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do this. How about let's read a couple of super

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chats and then I'll grab our next guest and we'll

335
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keep the show moving. We maybe an agnostic from Kansas

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named Ben that wants to talk about leaving room for God.

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But before we do that, Gretchen Z. Great to see

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you tonight, Gretchen, thank you for the ten dollars super chat.

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Gritian is the last supper. Jesus passed out bred and

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said this is my body as he poured wine, said

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this is my blood as he grabbed the jar of mayo.

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Judas jumped and said, I just realized I got to

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be somewhere. That's great. And Johnny Morris, thank you for

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the two super j Johnny says you both rule well.

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Thank you, Johnny really appreciate that. And last one for

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now from our friend forum Forum, thank you for the

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fire doar uh super and for being a member of

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the channel. Says I just ate a ghost pepper for

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the very first time. WHOA, holy shit. I never had

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any kind of transcendent experience before, but hot, damn good pain. Yes,

351
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that's that's tough. I did. I did that once and

352
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it wasn't even fully ripe, and it wiped me out

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for the rest of the day. I was done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good ghosts pepper will do that. There's some restaurants

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here and ghost peppers where the ghost pepper has been

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turned down, and I really do like the entire taste

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of it. But if it's a regular ghost pepper, you're

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not tasting the ghost pepper because your taste buds are

359
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gone and your nerve yes shot for the rest of

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the day without a doubt. And I like spicy food

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most of the time. And if you do eat ghost peppers,

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I highly recommend a gallon of ice cream that way

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later on, as it's passing through, you can wait for

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the ice cream to go through too.

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Speaker 1: Ice Cream's essential. Let's bring in Ben. Ben's from Kansas,

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and Ben is asking science doesn't explain spirituality? Could there

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be room for God there?

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Speaker 2: Ben?

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Speaker 1: Can you hear us?

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Speaker 8: Hey, yeah, I can hear you.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, Can you doing well? Thanks for asking? Can you

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kind of flesh out your introduction, like, what do you

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think is lacking that we would want to leave room

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for God in?

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Speaker 8: Well, I guess I'll just give you a little bit

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of back down and then I'll ask the question if

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that's okay?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, yea. If it helps make your argument that

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for spiritual and leaving room for God, sure, go ahead.

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Speaker 8: So I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist household, you know,

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where people didn't question their faith and they always wondered,

382
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you know, I always wondered why people judged other people's

383
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beliefs but not didn't question their own, you know, and

384
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I've seen quite a bit of the experience, and at

385
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first I was, you know, resistant to what you for

386
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your arguments to help me think more critically and like

387
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work through some pretty difficult questions. And right now I'm

388
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kind of on the fence between atheism and theism. It's like,

389
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I want to believe in God, but I haven't really

390
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found convincing evidence. And so for me just recently, a

391
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question that's kind of popped up is like particle waves duality.

392
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It shows that reality is kind of stranger than what

393
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we think, and it makes me wonder if there's a

394
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deeper layer to existence that we don't yet grasp. And

395
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I'm not saying that that's evidence of God, but it

396
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kind of keeps me open to the idea that there

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could be something beyond what we currently understand.

398
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Speaker 2: Well, how is that spirituality? I mean, yeah, quantum mechanics

399
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,640
kind of screes everything up for a lot of things,

400
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especially for any of the cosmological arguments for God. I

401
00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:13,559
think it pretty much closes the book and says those

402
00:20:13,599 --> 00:20:18,279
are done because we know there's just too much randomness there.

403
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But does that mean that there's potential for God to

404
00:20:21,559 --> 00:20:24,240
be there? I guess the question is this wwitch god?

405
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If it's the God of the Bible. No, because the

406
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triomne God of the Bible, the one is omnipresent, omnipotent,

407
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and omnib benevolent, can't logically exist if there's evil in

408
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the world. He can only exist if there is no

409
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evil in the world. So that kind of God can't

410
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possibly exist. If you're talking about like a elemental God

411
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that has control over storms or whatever. Those gods clearly

412
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don't exists. So when you say that there's room for God,

413
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what kind of God is there? Certainly not the God

414
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of the Bible in any stretch of the imagination right

415
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because he possibly exists because nothing about him fits with reality,

416
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even if you get rid of the triomne properties, which

417
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,079
are relatively recent to Christianity. Essay relativey, I think it's

418
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,640
fourth fifth century justin correctly be on that. If I'm

419
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,279
completely off, I'm sure. So it's just problematic. So when

420
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you say there's room for God, I think you got

421
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to define that God just to know if there's room

422
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for him and how does he interact with the universe

423
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and what did he do?

424
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Speaker 8: You know, that's a fair point, I guess. I mean

425
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God more of like ultimate reality or the ground of being,

426
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like not necessarily a specific deity.

427
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Speaker 2: What do you mean by grounded reality?

428
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Speaker 8: Kind of think of it?

429
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Speaker 1: That was my first question is what do you mean

430
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by grounded reality?

431
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Speaker 8: Well, it's just that there's so much we don't understand

432
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,440
about it. Sure, I guess reality. Why would we It

433
00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:51,000
seems like the deeper we go, the fuzzier it gets.

434
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Speaker 1: Well, in terms of reality, go ahead, Jim.

435
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Speaker 2: I would say, in terms of the fuzzier it gets.

436
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,839
And we kind of know a lot about uantum mechanics.

437
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,880
You know. The last thing we didn't know was the

438
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,960
Higgs Boson particle, and that came out exactly as the

439
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:09,799
math predicted.

440
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Speaker 8: Concern.

441
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know that's kind of what they're doing now,

442
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is just going back and proving the math, so to speak,

443
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well not so to speak, that's what they're doing. And

444
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,759
there hasn't been anything super new or truly groundbreaking. They

445
00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:29,200
have found some things that have shaken up particular areas

446
00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,799
of quantum mechanics, but to say we don't know. You know,

447
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,480
we know quite a bit, at least according to our maths.

448
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So when you say we don't know enough, I mean, yeah,

449
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that's probably true, and there's always going to be more

450
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to learn, more than likely. So yeah, but where what

451
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does that have to do with the grounded reality or God?

452
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I got?

453
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Speaker 8: Well, I guess I'm not trying to claim that it

454
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proves God. I just maybe I just think it shows

455
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how surprising reality can be. And I wonder how I

456
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can appreciate that mystery without turning it into dogmas so

457
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to speak.

458
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Speaker 1: Sure, can I see a question about the It sounds

459
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,160
like you're trying to figure out like why there is

460
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reality as opposed to not reality, and so that's why

461
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,839
you're looking for like ontological grounding. But like the question

462
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,920
I would have is like I don't see, like if

463
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,759
you envision some sort of like deistic god that grounds

464
00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:24,200
all this, we still run a foul of the same problem,

465
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which is like we have no explanation for the grounding

466
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,160
of a deistic god. Right, So, as far as I'm

467
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,160
I'm concerned, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking it

468
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,799
just makes more sense that you know, whatever exists is

469
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:38,440
going to be a naturalistic phenomenon. It might be true

470
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that there's naturalistic phenomenon that we don't know about. We

471
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don't fully understand it yet, right, But everything we learn

472
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about the universe as we gain more knowledge, points towards

473
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naturalistic causes. So I'm inclined to believe that a naturalistic

474
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cause is going to be the next step as opposed

475
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,039
to something that has a mind and created all things,

476
00:23:58,079 --> 00:24:00,960
because once you add a mind into the equation, there

477
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,279
needs to be explanations for why the mind does anything.

478
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:08,960
And that's when it gets really difficult, because like if

479
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,039
a mind created all this, had all that power, created

480
00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,640
the entire universe, but then created the show here on

481
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,480
the Earth man, we got a lot of problems. I

482
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,279
think Okham's razor would do as well, just to not

483
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,000
needlessly multiply entities.

484
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, the end.

485
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 8: Which solution is often the correct one.

486
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the simplest solution that explains the most or

487
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,000
all of the phenomena is usually the correct one. Yeah,

488
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,640
you don't need to really complicate things, but you know

489
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,799
there there's also somewhat similar to the the something from

490
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:43,799
nothing argument we hear from theists, and the fact is

491
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,119
that energy can never be created nor destroyed, not by God,

492
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,359
not by anyone or anything, and so energy is not nothing.

493
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,680
It is something. But even if and that's just kind

494
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,559
of the scientific basis. And then they've done some experiments

495
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:03,400
to prove that the nothing that philosophers talk about can't

496
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,279
possibly exist, right, And that's a problem if you're going

497
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:09,880
to do this something from nothing. That's a problem for

498
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,960
the biblical God as well, because he created the universe

499
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,880
out of nothing. Again, energy can't be created or destroyed,

500
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,759
and nothing can't possibly exist, so according to our best

501
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:24,759
science that we have so far. But also if we

502
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:28,359
assume that philosophical nothing, that would also mean that there

503
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,000
are no rules against that nothing spontaneously creating something, right,

504
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:38,079
because that rule wouldn't exist. So Yeah, Richard Carrier has

505
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:40,720
got a really really good, long argument that I don't

506
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,599
really want to necessarily get into. I've got it here

507
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,079
in my note somewhere if we really want to, But

508
00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:51,039
he makes are really compelling argument that if absolute nothing

509
00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:54,759
really existed, then something would come out of it, just

510
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:58,640
because that's more likely than anything else. And he gets

511
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,880
into the math andism makes a really good philosophical argument

512
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,599
against it. But I just I don't buy the something

513
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,240
from nothing at all. That argument just doesn't work for me.

514
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,279
It doesn't work for me from a scientific point of view,

515
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,160
and it doesn't work for me from a philosophical point

516
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,720
of view either. It's just a really bad argument.

517
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 8: I know, And it's honestly kind of hard to explain

518
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,359
because I'm just like on the fence about a lot

519
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,119
of stuff. I guess if I had to just summarize it, like,

520
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,559
would you consider it to be reasonable for people to

521
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,400
feel spiritual inspiration or not from the strangeness of reality?

522
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,200
And if it was, like, could you give some examples

523
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,400
of some stuff that I could read to help me

524
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:41,680
with that.

525
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:43,799
Speaker 1: I think it's okay to feel like a little bit

526
00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:47,799
of awe in wonder at the universe because it's pretty cool,

527
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,359
Like the universe is really cool. Yeah, I thought about

528
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,319
this a long time. When we look at certain features,

529
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,359
like we see a really big mountain range, we're kind

530
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,480
of full of all in wonder. But I remember the

531
00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:02,799
first time I saw my like a really large expansion bridge,

532
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,480
I was like, I had a very very similar feeling

533
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:08,119
of all in wonder, but like, hey, human beings built.

534
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 9: This, this is in person, right, So My suggestion is

535
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,359
like crazy, I saw a little helicopter flying in there,

536
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,680
and it looked just absolutely minuscule, you know, the scale

537
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:18,960
of it.

538
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 8: It's just like whoa so.

539
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like the Hoover Dam, right, Like all in

540
00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:29,400
Wonders not reserved for naturalistic things like the Grand Canyon

541
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,440
and whatnot, it's also for human made things. And I

542
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,920
think that tells us that humans just naturally were kind

543
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,880
of impressed by very large structures.

544
00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or just just things that that, you know.

545
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,599
I find it interesting too that some of the most

546
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,359
beautiful places in the world are also places where forging

547
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,119
for food, if you know, back in the day would

548
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,680
have been easier heavily forested areas funding things in mountains,

549
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,640
and you know, civilization grew up on the banks where

550
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,960
you could. So yeah, I think there's also a bit

551
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,240
of an evolution in there. But seeing things and being

552
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,839
inspired by them has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality.

553
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,519
Is just enjoying being human.

554
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,039
Speaker 8: Wow, that's that's pretty cool. I guess it's just dealing

555
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:22,359
with those And it's funny you even mentioned forging. I

556
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,720
like to do that. I live out in the country

557
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,039
and I've been doing that a lot it's just I

558
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:30,640
guess happy to be alive, you know, I don't. Yeah,

559
00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:34,759
it's kind of hard if we have time for one

560
00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:37,559
more question, it's kind of off topic, is that okay?

561
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:42,279
So because of my journey, you know, I was just

562
00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:45,240
wondering how I can maintain a good relationship with my

563
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,640
very religious family when our beliefs are so different. It's like,

564
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,680
I don't want to lie about what I believe, but

565
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,519
I don't want to turn every visit into a debate

566
00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,440
or feel like I'm betraying myself by staying quiet. I

567
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,519
don't know if you are something that you guys have

568
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:04,079
been through, but any help be appreciated.

569
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents don't know that I'm an atheist, or

570
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,400
at least I don't think they do. I've never told them,

571
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,079
and they're not on the internet, and they're not anywhere

572
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:14,039
where they can run into me. Now, my cousins, to

573
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:20,400
include my mom's sister and her sister in law, are

574
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,640
on the internet and they both know. So do most

575
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,480
of my cousins. Now have they told my parents? I

576
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:30,079
don't know, but my parents aren't super strict. They asked

577
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:34,319
me to go to Mass and I say no, no thanks,

578
00:29:34,839 --> 00:29:36,640
and I leave it at that. I don't offer anything,

579
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,920
and they kind of accept that. So your family's going

580
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,119
to be a little bit different. You're gonna have to

581
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,079
navigate your own way, and I don't know that there's

582
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,799
a good way to do it depending you know. I

583
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:49,359
know atheists who have good relationship with their highly religious parents,

584
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:53,079
but they set boundaries and there are consequences for crossing

585
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:56,039
those boundaries, like going no contact for a period of time.

586
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:59,480
And I know atheists who just have horrible relationships with

587
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:02,440
their family. So I only I can really give you

588
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:05,039
is best of luck and try to remember what your

589
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:07,720
focus is is keeping them in your lives while also

590
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:09,720
establishing boundaries, right.

591
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: And I appreciate that.

592
00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:14,279
Speaker 1: I would ask, sorry, like do you do you want

593
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,039
to maintain a tight relationship with them? Is that your goal?

594
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,039
Speaker 8: I completely changed my career into healthcare, and nobody in

595
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:25,119
my family really does that. So I actually moved back

596
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,200
to be closer with them so that I could offer

597
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:31,079
that part of what I can be helpful with to them.

598
00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:33,720
So it's kind of like I really and we've had

599
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:35,400
a lot of my family has had a lot of

600
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,519
health problems in this coming up. This last year has

601
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:40,119
been crazy and so that's one of the main reasons

602
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,559
why I move back. But it's like I pretty much

603
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,400
have to not have to. It is my choice, obviously,

604
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,359
but I'm around them and I want to help them

605
00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:52,559
in that instance. But it's just my with my dad,

606
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:55,000
I pretty much just never talk about it. I just

607
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:57,319
don't go into it. And then some of my other

608
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,519
family are definitely more open with it, but it just

609
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,160
becomes so heated and you know, the same arguments that

610
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,359
you guys hear. I'm sure you know, ad nauseum over

611
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,799
and over. It's the same thing, and they they will

612
00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:13,640
not be convinced in any way. And I've tried, honestly

613
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,680
just to not be disingenuine. I've read many different books

614
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,559
on different religions to kind of like maybe get a

615
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,480
bridge to even get them, you know, like say, hey,

616
00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:26,119
like there's many other gods, but you just believe in

617
00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:29,160
this one, you know, like just trying to help. But

618
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,119
also I don't you know, I don't want to force

619
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,880
them into anything, you know, I'm just there to help.

620
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,920
It's just it's kind of hard topic to stay away

621
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,839
from because they love to talk about it, you.

622
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: Know, and that's fair. You know, I had I have

623
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,880
a very like right leaning political family, but I have

624
00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:50,640
one aunt who has always been very left leaning, and

625
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,839
I didn't even know about it until I was in

626
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,559
my late teens. I had no idea, and it was

627
00:31:55,599 --> 00:31:59,079
really interesting, and I asked her when I got over it,

628
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:01,519
how come you never talk about politics, because she clearly

629
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:03,640
was very interested in politics. She worked for the government

630
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,640
for a long time. And she's like, I love my family,

631
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,759
it's not worth fighting over. And I was like, oh, well,

632
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:13,640
that's that's fair, right, And so, like, I think you

633
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,200
do have to at some level ask yourself, like, where

634
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,720
are is your priority to maintain your family relationship? If

635
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,039
that's if that's the priority, then you kind of have

636
00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:28,359
to sometimes, you know, not talk about a subject that

637
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,200
you might want to talk about. However, if if like

638
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,279
your family is using religion in a dangerous way, that's

639
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,440
when you might want to speak up. When the conversation

640
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:41,039
comes up, and you know, present facts or evidence or

641
00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:44,519
arguments that may or may not be persuasive. You're certainly

642
00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:46,359
you're not going to persuade your family to think like you,

643
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,079
but you can at least have an answer ready for

644
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440
when they come at you with some of these things I.

645
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 8: Mean, And it's the craziest thing because what I guess

646
00:32:56,759 --> 00:33:00,279
such an ironic statement of common sense. You say that

647
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:03,960
people would understand, but like sometimes arguing with them, it's

648
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:07,279
just they will not accept it. You know, I don't.

649
00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:10,400
I don't owe in silence, you know, I just I honest.

650
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,240
I just want to be honest. I don't want I

651
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,119
don't want to worry about like hurting them, you know,

652
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,640
because I want to be there for them. But I

653
00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:21,240
just guess I'm just trying to share gradually because I

654
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:23,119
just I want to be honest about myself too.

655
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: You know, Well, there's nothing dishonest about not telling them

656
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,880
you're an atheist or not having those conversations, because I mean,

657
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,839
as someone who is obviously on a show as often

658
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,640
as I am and looking to do more shows, I

659
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,000
would still say that atheism is still twenty percent of

660
00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:45,799
my life, maybe ten percent, And so for me to

661
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,680
talk about anything else isn't being dishonest. I don't talk

662
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,279
about scuba diving, and on scuba divers, I don't talk about,

663
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,359
you know, driving off road to people who aren't driving

664
00:33:56,359 --> 00:33:58,640
off road. All the time, we talked about things that

665
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,920
we have common interest and it's not being disingenuine, that's

666
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:05,119
just being genuine. So there's no dishonesty on that on

667
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,880
your part there as far as I'm concerned.

668
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,519
Speaker 8: Okay, Well, I mean what you guys have said have

669
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:13,320
been really helpful. Thank you a lot. I mean, I

670
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,559
enjoy what you guys are doing, and honestly, it has

671
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:18,079
been very helpful and in my journey, like I said,

672
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,760
I was pretty resistant at first, but over the years,

673
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,000
you know' as I've traveled and met more people, I've

674
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:27,960
just realized that, you know, there's so much there's just

675
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,440
a better logical and rational way to approach things, and

676
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,639
it's been very helpful. Thank you guys.

677
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 10: I appreciate it.

678
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for calling in, Ben, and best luck to

679
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,559
you and best of luck with your with your family relationships.

680
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, jeers friend, I appreciate it. Yep.

681
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,519
Speaker 1: I think that's such a common problem. There's so many

682
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:49,840
people that live in like a small blue dot and

683
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,280
where they think differently than those around them, and it's

684
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,760
difficult to be authentic but also preserve relationships. That's all.

685
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:03,159
Speaker 2: It's the hardest thing in the world. Families are rough,

686
00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:07,519
especially the more religious families especially you know, like the

687
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:12,039
Jdubs are really willing to shun you and cut off

688
00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:15,559
all contact, and others that are just as extreme. We'll

689
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,760
also do that. So coming out as an atheist, especially

690
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,320
for the young folks who are under eighteen and can't

691
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,239
sign rental agreements, can't work full time because of child

692
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,000
labor laws and all that, the hardest thing in the

693
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:31,400
world is just tell them keep your mouth shut, keep

694
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,239
your head down way till you're eighteen, because that could

695
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,840
be just as dangerous as telling them nothing at all

696
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:43,280
or to do anything else. So yeah, this Christian idea

697
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,039
that it's okay to throw your children into the wolves

698
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,440
is just horrifyingly bad and it's not uncommon. And if

699
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,760
you read the Bible, I think that you can actually

700
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,000
make that case that shunning and ostracizing people is a

701
00:35:56,039 --> 00:35:56,679
thing to do.

702
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: Yep, sure can. It's absolutely in there.

703
00:35:59,280 --> 00:35:59,679
Speaker 2: Yeah I am.

704
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,559
Speaker 1: Let me grab the next three super chats and then

705
00:36:03,559 --> 00:36:06,440
I'm going to do some announcements and we'll get Daisy

706
00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:09,480
on the line. Next. We've got a twenty dollars super

707
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:12,159
chat from our friend Jason Jones. Thank you so much,

708
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,519
Jason Jason from Seattle, Thanks you for your work. Well Jason,

709
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:19,679
I really appreciate that, and thank you for supporting our

710
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,719
work and thank you for supporting the ACA. We've also

711
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,800
got another super chat from our friend Maryland. Marilynd. Thank

712
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,960
you so much for the five dollars super chat. Maryland says,

713
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,840
Justin is God. Well we Marilynd, we appreciate you supporting

714
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,880
the stream. Good to see you as always. And last

715
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,559
our friend Emir, thank you so much, Amir for the

716
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:41,679
five dollars super chat and for being a member of

717
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,159
the channel. Amir says, question for the esteemed panel, please

718
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:49,199
have you looked at and really considered the trees? Checkmate?

719
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: Oh?

720
00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:52,519
Speaker 1: Also follow up, where do you come from?

721
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,159
Speaker 2: My mama's Betty.

722
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: I have to be careful. I went for a long

723
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,800
hike the other day. I almost came back theist. It

724
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,719
was a tough wow.

725
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very tough. We have a lot of trees

726
00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:08,519
down here in southern Alabama, and just driving around is

727
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:11,199
really really hard. But it's a wide variety of trees,

728
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:13,639
so you get to contemplate different types of trees. You know,

729
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:20,079
some of them, you know. So yeah, yeah, Well, friends,

730
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:21,599
we've got some announcements.

731
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: We now have a channel that houses all of the

732
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,280
ACA shows in audio podcast form and you can find

733
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,519
it at tiny dot c C forge slash a e

734
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,079
N podcast We'll say it again, tiny dot cc forge

735
00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:41,880
slash a n Podcasts. There you can listen to all

736
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,000
the latest shows from The Atheist Experienced, Talking Than Truth Wanted,

737
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:47,679
and the nonprofits, as well as others on the channel.

738
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,400
Another way you can support the channel, as you already know,

739
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,000
is through super chaps. We get them into show, we

740
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:55,599
read them during and after the show as well as

741
00:37:55,599 --> 00:37:59,800
many as we can, and we love audience participation. We

742
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,119
love to hear from the audience and be able to

743
00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:04,760
interact with you. The ACA also wants you to know

744
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,079
what's going on in our community, so you can find

745
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:11,840
that at the atheistdash community dot org and learn about

746
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,280
the organization itself, it's policies how you can get involved

747
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,599
as well. And last, but certainly not least, want to

748
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,360
send a big thank you to the crew who puts

749
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,760
this show together every week. And we were just talking

750
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,039
about this before the stream. The crew who runs the

751
00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:28,880
show makes life so much easier for the host because

752
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,880
all we have to do is get up here and talk.

753
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,760
So send a big thank you to the operators. The

754
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,559
audio operators, the note takers, the video operators, the call screeners,

755
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:40,880
and the chat moderators. Because they're making our load much

756
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,559
much lighter up here. As they say, many hands make

757
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:44,280
the load lighters.

758
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 5: How they say that, yeah, yeah, and it's true. They

759
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,480
make our lives so much easier. And of course the

760
00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:55,760
folks stands for our now another justin they do. They

761
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,159
do a lot more than they take, a lot more

762
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,000
than people will give them credit force sometimes, but yes,

763
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,760
the folks answer and mail are also part of that crew.

764
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: Speaking of answering mail, I see people commenting after the streams,

765
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,199
in the comments of the video is wanting us to

766
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,719
answer their questions. And I'll just let you know now,

767
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,400
if you want your questions answered, you have to call

768
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,599
in the show. I don't go into these comments and

769
00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:22,360
debate you after the show. You've got to got to

770
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,880
pull your britches up and get in and call in

771
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,760
the show if you want to prove Jim and I wrong.

772
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:33,679
Speaker 2: We don't bite much, but you know, you get ready

773
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:35,920
to have a conversation.

774
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:39,559
Speaker 1: Indeed, let's get Daisy into the chat. Daisy is from

775
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,079
Washington and is asking is there a way to actually

776
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:48,719
disprove dogmatic religions unlike deism. Here's a fair question. Do

777
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,840
you need any addition to that, any clarification of Daisy's I.

778
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,079
Speaker 10: Think that's pretty much it. It's like, is there a

779
00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:02,360
way that dogmatic religions can be just like I understand

780
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:08,000
that Dehism can't really be disproved necessarily, but like, do

781
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:11,400
you think that the like like say, you know, like

782
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,880
just take the example like the God of the Bible.

783
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,000
Is there a way that you can disprove that?

784
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,679
Speaker 1: Sure?

785
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:21,199
Speaker 2: Which version of the God of the Bible? Because there's

786
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,639
multiple there's multiple versions of that God. There's at least

787
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,719
now some people say ten thousand. I'll go with what

788
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,320
I can prove and say, there's a thousand different religions,

789
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,360
all of which disagree on some fundamental point of dogma,

790
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,440
and they all claim the Bible as their source. So

791
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,199
which God of the Bible are you talking about? And yeah,

792
00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:41,920
I just start there.

793
00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 10: Well, I was recently having a discussion with an Episcopalian

794
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,880
and I kept bringing things up, like, you know, how

795
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,440
there's slavery in the Bible, and like the problem of

796
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,480
evil and about the thing about the testing of women's

797
00:40:57,559 --> 00:41:02,440
virginity and how that's wrong. And they kept saying, oh, no, no,

798
00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:05,280
we don't believe that kind of thing, and we kept

799
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,760
gaining trans people and stuff because we don't take the

800
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,559
Bible literally in that way.

801
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,519
Speaker 1: And yeah, laws are not literal anymore. With that, So

802
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,519
if they're telling you that laws are not literal anymore,

803
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:21,400
I think they're more confused just about anybody, like the

804
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,880
most literal part of the Bible are the laws?

805
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: Right?

806
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:25,559
Speaker 4: Right? Right?

807
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: Well, let me get let me give you. Can I

808
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,559
give you some nuggets that you might want to take

809
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,960
and use in the future, because there's a couple of

810
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,760
things you can write down if you're trying to do

811
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:42,159
some work on debunking the Jesus nonsense. I would start

812
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,199
with a two for one, which is show that the

813
00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:47,199
Bible contradicts itself and show that the contradictions come directly

814
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,559
from Jesus. I think these are problematic for a lot

815
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:52,440
of Christians. Once they say that Jesus can say things wrong,

816
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,440
there's all kinds of problems that they can't reconcile. So,

817
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,039
for example, if you go to Matthew twenty seven and

818
00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:03,039
then go down to verse seven, it talks about Jesus

819
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:06,039
being betrayed for the thirty pieces of silver. But listen

820
00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:07,960
to what it says in seven and eight says, after

821
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:10,599
conferring to they get together, they use them to buy

822
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:13,199
the Potters Field as a place to bury foreigners. For

823
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,239
this reason, that field has been called the field of

824
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,920
blood to this day. Then was fulfilled what had been

825
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,119
spoken through the prophet Jeremiah, and they took thirty pieces

826
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,719
of silver, the price of the one on whom a

827
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,920
price had been set, on whom some of the people

828
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:29,880
a visual headset a price. So the author right here

829
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,840
of Matthew referring to Jesus's betrayal is just wrong. Jeremiah

830
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,239
didn't say anything. He actually just quoted Zachariah. He quoted

831
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,719
Zachariah and attributed it to Jeremiah, which was just all

832
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:46,280
complete flubb He completely flubbed it. Jesus does the same

833
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,199
thing in Matthew twenty three with Matthew twenty three. Yeah,

834
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,719
Matthew twenty three, We grab it real quick. In verse

835
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,559
thirty four he talks about the wrong Zachariah. In verse

836
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:00,199
thirty five talks about a Zacharia that was martyred. As

837
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,440
is upon you may come all the righteous blood shed

838
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,599
on the earth from the blood of the righteous able

839
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,440
to the blood of Zachariah's son of better A Kiah,

840
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,400
whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. But

841
00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:16,559
that's not correct, that's the wrong Zachariah. And second Chronicles

842
00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:20,039
twenty four where it records the death of that Zachariah,

843
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:25,119
it's not actually the son of berachoid I say that right, yeah, Betterrakiah,

844
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,719
it's the son of Jehoida. So, like we've got lots

845
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,239
of instances of the New Testament just completely flubbing the

846
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,960
Old Testament. One of my other favorites is Jesus in

847
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:39,280
Luke chapter four, misapplies Isaiah sixty one to himself. If

848
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,159
you just read all the way to verse four, it's

849
00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:45,000
clear that it didn't come true. He also misquotes other

850
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:47,719
parts of the Old Testament, like he completely flubs in

851
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,199
Matthew twenty two, what's happening in Psalm one ten because

852
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,920
he can't read Hebrew. He's only reading the Greek. And

853
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,320
so once you start pointing out the problems with Jesus

854
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,000
himself not even understanding what's in the Hebrew Bible, it's

855
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:01,960
are difficult for them to come back from that because

856
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,360
they think even though the Bible could have an error

857
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,480
in it, they wouldn't expect an error to be in

858
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:08,039
Jesus's own words.

859
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 10: Right, even if they were Episcopalians.

860
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: Right, because Episcopalians aren't always like in Arrentists, like there's

861
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,440
episcopalions that can hold to a biblical view that this

862
00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:22,119
still contains like some errors. But once you start showing

863
00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:25,199
them problems with, like well, Jesus himself said things that

864
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,800
just aren't true. Now they've got some stuff to wrestle with. Now.

865
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,760
My favorite topic, of course, and I would spend all

866
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,039
day every day talking about it, is just reading the

867
00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:37,599
prophecies that are supposedly applied to Jesus. If you go

868
00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:39,559
to the Book of Matthew, just just do the first

869
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:42,719
two chapters, go to those prophecies that are quoted, and

870
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,920
go back to the Old Testament where they're quoted from,

871
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,760
and read them in the original context. You can easily

872
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,440
just demonstrate quite quickly that Jesus didn't fulfill them in

873
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:54,119
the context they were given. Like Hosea eleven to one

874
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,159
talks about the sun coming out of Egypt, but that's preposterous.

875
00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:04,239
Hosea eleven one is about the Israelites coming out of Egypt.

876
00:45:04,639 --> 00:45:08,119
Israel is God's first born. It's a quotation of Exes four,

877
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:11,960
verse twenty two. So the reality is, once you start

878
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,599
looking at how Jesus didn't fulfill a single prophecy, got

879
00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:17,519
a lot of big problems here. Jesus doesn't know the

880
00:45:17,519 --> 00:45:20,079
Old Testament properly. The Gospel authors don't even know what

881
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:23,000
a prophecy is, and so like, what are we supposed

882
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:26,199
to believe about this Jesus character When the Gospels clearly

883
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,360
are lying about the Hebrew Bible. Why would we believe

884
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,800
them on something as monumental as a guy like raising

885
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:33,360
from the dead.

886
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, like I think you're totally that is

887
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,960
way better than anything I could have thought about, Like

888
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,760
on this spot when I was talking to this person,

889
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,599
It's just it seems so slippery, where like anytime I

890
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:47,320
would bring up something, they would say, oh, like no,

891
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,519
we don't believe it like that, you know, like you know,

892
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:56,599
we like like have this new progressive interpretation. And I

893
00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:59,280
was just thinking, like, well, you know, you could probably

894
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,719
you couldn't really disprove a God exists, like a prime

895
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,559
mover or something like that. But like I feel like

896
00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:08,039
you know, I've watched the show for a long time.

897
00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:13,119
I've watched other shows. Like I've been really really uncomfortably

898
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,119
reading the Bible lately to sort of like see what

899
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:18,639
it said, and it's it's it's in the Quran as

900
00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:20,239
well as like a lot of this stuff is kind

901
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,360
of hard to get through because it's in this like

902
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,280
the sentences are really difficult to I mean, they're in

903
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,840
this kind of language that just is not it doesn't

904
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,039
really make too much sense when I'm sure you like

905
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:33,920
and I know justin you have like a lot of

906
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,639
knowledge on this, but like it's really hard to read

907
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:39,880
the Bible and come away with some kind of good

908
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,159
interpretation that you think like that you've got it, like

909
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:45,559
you you've actually understood the sentence and that kind of thing.

910
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,559
Speaker 1: But it certainly can be difficult, yeah, if you're not

911
00:46:49,679 --> 00:46:50,119
used to it.

912
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,159
Speaker 10: Yeah, But just one other thing, like do you think

913
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:57,079
that there's like do you know much about like other religions.

914
00:46:57,079 --> 00:46:59,639
Do you do you think that there's like in like

915
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,239
in the Koran or like in Buddhism or anything like that.

916
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,320
Do you think that there's there's those same types of things,

917
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,119
like these contradictions that can kind of show that the

918
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:13,760
dogma is like it could be shown to be wrong.

919
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think Jim's got some stuff to

920
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:19,559
say about this as well. But like in Islam, there's

921
00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:22,639
like clearly things that are untrue. It says that Mohammad

922
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:26,760
split the moon into that's in the hadith, clearly didn't happen.

923
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,519
We also have like preposterous stuff like it talks about

924
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,480
how sperm in the Koran comes from between the backbone

925
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:36,320
and the ribs. It doesn't. It gets embryology wrong, the

926
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,880
order of development of the embryo. And then there's like

927
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,119
really nonsensical passages that are just like wrong in sexist,

928
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,000
Like in the Koran two eighty two says, in regards

929
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,000
to doing a financial contract, if there are not two

930
00:47:52,039 --> 00:47:55,400
men available to serve as witnesses, then a man and

931
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:58,480
two women such as you agree for witnesses so that

932
00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:02,880
if one of them, the other can remind her. So

933
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,840
there's this baked in idea that like women are insufficient

934
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,239
compared to men mentally, And if you read the Hadiz,

935
00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:13,880
the Hadis and the tough Seer they say the same thing.

936
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,320
So in one hidith Sahi Bakari, it says this is

937
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,639
because of the deficiency of a woman's mind. They're baked

938
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:27,440
into this religion is that women are deficient, they're less

939
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,599
than men, especially in terms of memory. The funny thing

940
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:33,400
is we've done actual scientific studies and it turns out

941
00:48:33,519 --> 00:48:37,000
women have superb memories, much better than men. So this

942
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:41,159
idea that women can't serve as good witnesses because their

943
00:48:41,159 --> 00:48:45,119
mind is deficient because they can remember something wrong is asinine.

944
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,039
Speaker 2: Have you heard of street epistemology. Yeah, that's a really

945
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:55,360
good technique for finding out we're basically asking how do

946
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,119
you know that? At nauseam without sounding like a three

947
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:01,280
year old, but as basically what a lot of it

948
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,280
is is asking questions. So you don't have to know

949
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:10,320
a lot about Hinduism or Buddhism or anything else to

950
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,199
ask questions about it, and to be able to ask

951
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,480
questions in such a way that you're actually trying to

952
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,599
discover how they know that, how do they why do

953
00:49:19,679 --> 00:49:22,159
they believe that, what's the root cause, what's the evidence

954
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,199
do they have? And there's a lot of really good

955
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,920
stuff out there. Anthony mcnabosca is probably one of the

956
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,960
better ones out there, and he's a real good guy.

957
00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:33,920
Many him a couple of times, but you know, the

958
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,400
website's a good place on straight epistemology is a good

959
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,320
place to get started with that. You don't have to

960
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:44,000
know everything to help people to discover the truth. You

961
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:47,519
just have to be willing to ask good questions listen to

962
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:50,880
the answers so that you can generate more good questions.

963
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,199
And that's the best way to go about doing that.

964
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,760
Because and as for every religion, right or even you

965
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:03,599
first Superman over Batman, you can use Trade of Pistemology

966
00:50:03,639 --> 00:50:06,199
to figure out why somebody likes Superman more than Batman.

967
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:09,840
So it's not just religious questions, it's any any particular

968
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,320
point of knowledge that somebody may know more than you do.

969
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:17,199
And people know more about their own beliefs than most people.

970
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,239
But if you watch enough Anthony mcnabosco and enough Trade

971
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,800
of Pistemology folks, you'll be able to pick up the

972
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,960
rhythm and figure out how to ask those questions while

973
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,840
listening just for your own notification, because you know somebody

974
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,599
could actually have a good reason. That's why we do

975
00:50:33,679 --> 00:50:36,440
this show all the day. I'm doing this show just

976
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,239
to see if we can get thes to answer the

977
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,880
questions yes or no, questions with yes or no. But

978
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,400
we haven't had any thes yet today, so I may

979
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:45,519
have scared them up with that.

980
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 10: Well, No, that does make a lot of sense.

981
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 2: You know.

982
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 10: I'm trying to read the Bible and the Kuran and

983
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,760
some other stuff in order to be better at like

984
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,920
addressing some of the conversations. But like, I see how

985
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,760
street of pistemalogy could be. Like, you know, you the

986
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,960
difficulty that I have is that I think that a

987
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,239
lot of the is will sort of pulling on to

988
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,920
belief just sort of without good reasons for it, you know,

989
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,599
like they'll just you know, it's just because like their

990
00:51:16,039 --> 00:51:19,679
their family, like their their little town or whatever is

991
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:21,559
like all this kind of way, and so that it's

992
00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:26,039
just sort of like this, like they're very they just

993
00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:27,920
sort of believe it because they believe it, you know.

994
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:30,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's very much the case, and asking the

995
00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:34,239
right questions can do more to expose that. The type

996
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,159
of debate that that Justin and I do on this

997
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,039
show and everyone else does on the ACA shows and

998
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:43,840
others as well, often runs into the backfire effect. We

999
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,199
know that that's going to happen. The more you directly

1000
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:50,199
oppose someone's ideas, the more strongly entrenched they can become,

1001
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,840
which is why we so we don't do these shows

1002
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,159
necessarily to win the argument with the caller. It's the

1003
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,719
people who are listening, you know, And that happens a

1004
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,320
lot more than a caller going oh, yeah, you're right,

1005
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,960
I no longer believe so in street epistemology is a

1006
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,320
way around that because you're not opposing someone's ideas, you're

1007
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,760
exploring their ideas, and you're doing it in a very

1008
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:24,199
non confrontational way. But even so, it's not going to

1009
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,719
be one conversation. It may be dozens of conversations, and

1010
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,360
it may not be the conversation with you. Maybe it's

1011
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,000
a conversation with you that gets them listening to this show,

1012
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,119
and then it's a conversation that they listen to that

1013
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,679
actually convinces them. It's not a one and done process,

1014
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,760
and it's not a short process. Ask anybody who's deconverted.

1015
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:45,119
It takes a long time.

1016
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, I mean I had. I was lucky because

1017
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,840
I was never really forced into Christianity, Like my family

1018
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,360
was Christian. There were Presbyterians, but my family basically just

1019
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:57,480
didn't care.

1020
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:58,519
Speaker 2: What I believed in.

1021
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 10: When I was like twelve, I actually called the emailed

1022
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:06,320
the ACA to try to determine if I was agnostic

1023
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:08,480
or atheist or bullets or that kind of thing, and

1024
00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:11,480
they really helped me through that. But honestly, like this

1025
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:14,679
has been really helpful in Justin and Jim. I'll look

1026
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,079
up both of the things that you recommended, and I

1027
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,960
really appreciate it to my heroes.

1028
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,199
Speaker 5: So interesting, friendly, Yeah, best luck to you.

1029
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, interesting question. I do think personally, I

1030
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,400
think everyone has a different approach to tackling the religious topics,

1031
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:38,920
and I think personally I've always favored the debunking the book.

1032
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,719
But you know, there's a lot of people that don't

1033
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,719
have dogmatic views of the books, so debunking the book

1034
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,440
doesn't really do it for them, Like you have to

1035
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,639
start with philosophy.

1036
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, Catholics are are not strict interpretation. In fact, you know,

1037
00:53:54,519 --> 00:53:59,079
Bible only is is a heresy to the structure Catholics

1038
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:04,559
because the Bible was not written as Christianity for dummies.

1039
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,199
It you know, they see it as a different book,

1040
00:54:08,199 --> 00:54:11,360
but they also don't take it literally. The question then becomes, well,

1041
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,880
what do you take literally and what don't you take literally?

1042
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,440
And how you decide what you do right? Which do

1043
00:54:16,519 --> 00:54:19,000
you take literally and which don't? Like Catholics don't take

1044
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:25,239
Genesis as being factually true, So how do you decide

1045
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,480
what is and isn't true? Right? If Genesis isn't true,

1046
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,119
then how do you get to the resurrection? Right? If

1047
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:34,280
the flood isn't true, how do you get to the resurrection?

1048
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,880
And so they take that as fable and myth and

1049
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,199
there's some truths there, but not you know, it's not

1050
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,480
literally a word for word true. And I think your

1051
00:54:43,519 --> 00:54:47,000
style works better with a lot of evangelicals who are

1052
00:54:47,519 --> 00:54:51,360
Bible only you know every word is true type folk.

1053
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,079
So yeah, it is harder, but even you know, with

1054
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:58,159
Catholicism there's stuff you can you can get into that

1055
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,639
just you know, where does this come from? Where does

1056
00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:03,280
papal and fallibility come from? But first sometimes you got

1057
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,360
to get a Catholic to figure out what that is

1058
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,599
and how the Church defines it, because no two Catholics

1059
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:11,360
believe the same thing on that and Italian Catholics don't

1060
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,440
believe the same thing as Churchman Catholics. American Catholics are

1061
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,320
a whole different beasts. So Yeah, quite true.

1062
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: Well, we got one super chat from our friend psychological projectionist.

1063
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:27,639
Thank you for the superchat, says, in my opinion, we

1064
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,280
can't disprove anything, but we can show it's almost infinitely

1065
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:38,840
improbable by demonstrating an infinity of equally disprovable candidate Gods. Actually,

1066
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,719
I don't entirely disagree with that. That's one of the

1067
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,679
reasons why you'll see behind me the grounding of all grounding,

1068
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,400
Doug and Sharon Stone, because every argument for God I

1069
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,199
can easily make for these two back behind me the

1070
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,960
Rock of Salvation and the co redemptrics. So certainly there

1071
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,760
are lots of arguments that could be had against God,

1072
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:04,159
even if we wouldn't classify them as proofs.

1073
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 2: Proofs exists in mathematics and evidences for everything else. And

1074
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,440
sometimes we screw those words up and use proof when

1075
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:12,239
we mean evidence.

1076
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: But right right, indeed, well, let's grab Hannah from the queue. Hannah,

1077
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,280
we we know quite well. Hannah's coming in this time,

1078
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,119
says modern physics is evidence that the Kabba law is

1079
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:27,320
revealed by God. Can't wait to see how this goes, Hannah.

1080
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,280
Welcome back to the Athey experience.

1081
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 3: Hey, so I just Sorry, is there any background noise

1082
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,199
or or am I coming in clear? I mean it's okay, Yeah,

1083
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,920
I just wanted to say that I think basically that

1084
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,880
principles of modern physics are evidence that Kabbalah, which is

1085
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,159
the Jewish mystical tradition, is revealed by God. So I

1086
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:51,239
don't know if he's review your Jewish Now, well, I'm

1087
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:52,119
a Noah Hyde.

1088
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,280
Speaker 1: Gotcha. So you're a noahidu. How long have you been in?

1089
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,559
No hiju is.

1090
00:56:56,559 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 3: Someone who's not not a member of nation visual but

1091
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,079
subscribes to Jewish philosophy. But I've been in doa Hyde

1092
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:03,559
for years?

1093
00:57:03,599 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: Okay, just asking, So what's the scientific evidence that proves

1094
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,159
that Jewish mysticism is true?

1095
00:57:11,199 --> 00:57:14,039
Speaker 3: The first piece of evidence is the fact that there

1096
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:17,239
are tensive growths, which are ten attributes of God described

1097
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:22,519
and then ten dimensions which modern quantum physicists discussed. That's

1098
00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:25,440
evidence one. I believe that the ten growths are manifest

1099
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:30,280
and correlated to the ten dimensions that quantum physicists discussed.

1100
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,039
Speaker 2: That's the first then, So how how just let's just

1101
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:36,039
start there. How is that not a coincidence?

1102
00:57:36,679 --> 00:57:40,119
Speaker 3: Well, basically, because if we're talking about dedea that there's

1103
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:43,639
a fundamental nature, at the fundamental nature of reality, that

1104
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,559
there's ten essential attributes and ten dimensions in the physics,

1105
00:57:47,599 --> 00:57:51,239
and then the ten attributes of God. Well you could

1106
00:57:51,239 --> 00:57:52,960
say it's a coincidence. Coincidence.

1107
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,679
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what it sounds like, right, because quantum

1108
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,519
physics and those ten dimensions are things that we got

1109
00:57:59,519 --> 00:58:02,320
to from math. And you're saying is written in some

1110
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,199
book by some thing that we don't neither justin nor

1111
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,119
I accept as existing. So you got to do some

1112
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:11,599
work here. You can't just go, oh, look the two

1113
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,440
you got ten here and ten here, So what you

1114
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:16,280
got to do some more work for that. So how

1115
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,079
do you get from God to ten aspects of God

1116
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:21,960
being the same thing as ten dimensions?

1117
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,719
Speaker 3: It would be a probabilistic argument, or is it an

1118
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,400
argument for certainty? But the probabilistic argument would be Ockham's

1119
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,760
razor says that apostulate that has fewer assumptions built into

1120
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,320
it is more likely to be true to my single formation,

1121
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,239
and it requires fewer assumptions to say that there's tenements

1122
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:40,320
and God is God.

1123
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,159
Speaker 2: God is an extra assumption. God is an extra assumption.

1124
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,320
The existence of God is not ten dimensions but eleven

1125
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,199
things now, not ten, right, So you actually have more

1126
00:58:51,199 --> 00:58:54,159
complications by adding God in there, which means Akhem Rasor

1127
00:58:54,239 --> 00:58:55,199
says you're also wrong.

1128
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,719
Speaker 3: Well, the door part is that it requires more assumptions

1129
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,360
to assume that it's a coincidence that the Combalists god

1130
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,599
this idea that there's ten dimensions of reality, right, and

1131
00:59:04,679 --> 00:59:06,679
that having a lot of contum physics when they had

1132
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:09,199
no understand of count physics.

1133
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: You you miss under You misunderstood me, You misunderstood me.

1134
00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:16,079
Oukham's razor disproves the clan that there are ten dimensions

1135
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:18,360
to a god, and that is the same thing as

1136
00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:21,760
ten dimensions, right, because now you're saying ten dimensions in

1137
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,280
a god. That is one more thing the claim of

1138
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,719
a God than there are in there just ten dimensions.

1139
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,119
So even if we accept the coincidence is true, it's

1140
00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:33,360
simpler to say that there are ten dimensions, then there

1141
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,400
is say, ten dimensions and a God. Right.

1142
00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:38,599
Speaker 3: Well, yes, but that's only if you assume that God

1143
00:59:38,679 --> 00:59:44,599
is unnecessary. But God could be postulated as a necessary assumption.

1144
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: Has absolutely nothing to do with Okham's razor, does it.

1145
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:50,719
I can explain everything with ten dimensions, and I don't

1146
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,320
need a God to do it. Therefore, Ockham's razor tells

1147
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,760
me that God isn't necessary.

1148
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,559
Speaker 3: Well, yes, it would say that unless there's evidence for God.

1149
00:59:57,559 --> 01:00:00,559
And now I'm getting into the other arguments. There evidence

1150
01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:03,239
from God from modern physics. That was just the first

1151
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,039
half of the evidence.

1152
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: To me, right, sure, the couple that doesn't say anything

1153
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,960
about ten dimensions. Just so we're clear on this.

1154
01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so talk to tens if you're road. But there's

1155
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,159
sense of fruit. I'm saying, I believe are evidence that

1156
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,079
they're correlated to the ten dimensions because I believe that

1157
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:23,840
God instantuated these ten Ceh discussing Zohar to give people

1158
01:00:24,199 --> 01:00:26,719
a flavor of modern physics that would later go on

1159
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:28,960
to be discovered. And there are cours few assumptions that

1160
01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:31,320
a bigger coincience. But that's that's only happened.

1161
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,239
Speaker 2: Because you're still you're still assuming God exists. You're still

1162
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,840
you're still making one more assumption, one more thing that

1163
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,039
that doesn't cover it, and that is that there's a

1164
01:00:40,079 --> 01:00:43,800
God exists and that a God did something. Rasors the

1165
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,400
the idea that there are ten dimensions is simpler than

1166
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,760
there are ten dimensions and a God. So you can't

1167
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,280
use Occam's razor to make your point here, because OCAM's

1168
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,519
rasor are always going in to favor the no God.

1169
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:56,880
If you're going to assume that ten dimensions has anything

1170
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,039
to do with God, you're just you're just stuck with them.

1171
01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:01,519
Speaker 3: God is dou necessarily, can I get to the latter

1172
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:04,320
half of the evidential like the other part of the

1173
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,920
evidence that I think demonstrates God, if that's okay? Now,

1174
01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:09,519
to show that, I would.

1175
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 2: Just like to also point out one thing that strength

1176
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,719
ory initially suggested ten dimensions, but some variants repose eleven.

1177
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,800
So you're still on shaky ground here even without breaking

1178
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,440
Occam's razor into it. But yeah, go ahead, okay.

1179
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,039
Speaker 3: And then the other half of the evidential argument is

1180
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:30,119
that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is evidence for a cabalistic

1181
01:01:30,159 --> 01:01:34,079
principle known as rod La. So Rodla is an acronym

1182
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:39,880
in Kabbala for the unknowable Godhead in Hebrew. And basically

1183
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:42,880
the idea is that Heisenberg's and certainty patrols as you

1184
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,440
can't measure the position and momentum of a particle at

1185
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,280
the quantum level and so the idea is that this

1186
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,639
is also evidence for the Kabbala being true, because the

1187
01:01:51,719 --> 01:01:56,280
Kabbala posits basically that there's an unknowable godhead which.

1188
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: Is nothing to do with it with each other.

1189
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, valid, I've heard from Hannah is wild. So

1190
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:08,440
just just be clear, let's start at the beginning. One,

1191
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:11,159
we have no idea if there's ten dimensions. Currently the

1192
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,800
physics model has four maybe five dimensions. You don't get

1193
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,880
the ten dimensions unless you accept string theory. String theory

1194
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,800
isn't an accepted thing. Even if there were ten dimensions.

1195
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,000
It has nothing to do with the ten emanations of

1196
01:02:25,079 --> 01:02:28,719
God in Kabo lah. Your your second point is on

1197
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,079
even weaker foundation than your first point, So your first

1198
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:34,880
point didn't actually do anything. So I guess what I'm

1199
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:36,639
trying to figure out is why you're now moving on

1200
01:02:36,679 --> 01:02:38,719
to point number two and point number one already failed.

1201
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,199
Is point number two stronger than point number one? Should

1202
01:02:41,599 --> 01:02:42,880
should be considered that first?

1203
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 3: Well, yes, but this is an accumulative evidential case for

1204
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,079
Kabbala being predictive.

1205
01:02:48,159 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 2: Colt, Yeah, but you're not. You're not. You're You're accumulating

1206
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,239
a giant ball of nothing. So why should we go

1207
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,920
any further since you so far you haven't built anything

1208
01:02:57,559 --> 01:03:01,000
on your first foundation you tried to build on doesn't work,

1209
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,280
even if even if giving you that ten dimensions has

1210
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,920
something to do with ten emanations, which I mean, you're

1211
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:09,679
going to have to do some work to get there.

1212
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,400
But even if I grant you that, uh, you brought

1213
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:17,320
up Okaham's razor, and Razor says that the best explanation

1214
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,480
is the simplest, and it's always simplest to go with

1215
01:03:19,519 --> 01:03:22,440
one fewer assumption, and that leaves God out because we

1216
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,400
can prove the ten dimensions, we can't prove whether or

1217
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,519
not there's a God. So you're just dead in the

1218
01:03:27,559 --> 01:03:30,039
water before you get started. And then you move it

1219
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:34,079
on to the uncertainty principle, you know, which is basically,

1220
01:03:34,199 --> 01:03:36,760
there's a limit to the precision with which certain pairs

1221
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:40,119
of physical properties such as position and momentum can be

1222
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:43,639
simultaneously known. So it's not that they can't, there's just

1223
01:03:43,679 --> 01:03:46,199
a limit to the precision. That is not the same

1224
01:03:46,239 --> 01:03:48,360
thing as whatever it is you just said about the

1225
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,960
Kabbalah and God being unknowable. If God is unknowable, then

1226
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,119
how do we know about him? I mean, let's just

1227
01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:56,119
start with that. You know, you just start with that.

1228
01:03:56,599 --> 01:03:59,199
You have built nothing here, So why should we continue

1229
01:03:59,519 --> 01:04:03,159
with this so called cumulative case of zero plus zero.

1230
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,679
Speaker 3: Well, so just real quick, just to quip for the second. Well,

1231
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,119
so the first point is the reason is because I

1232
01:04:09,119 --> 01:04:12,800
think if you can demonstrate that scientific principles are accurately

1233
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,599
predicted in cabalistic texts, that's Evans Forkala.

1234
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,719
Speaker 2: You haven't done that, Evans for you haven't done that.

1235
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 3: So the second thing is you misrepresented. I think you

1236
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:26,519
misrepresented the arguments for the evidence from the Godhead because

1237
01:04:26,559 --> 01:04:29,719
it's not saying that God. So in Kabala there's a

1238
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,639
division on God's essence and so the rod law the

1239
01:04:33,679 --> 01:04:34,840
unknowable Godhead is.

1240
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 2: But that has nothing to do with Heirds uncertainty principle,

1241
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,800
which you tried to link together. The two things are

1242
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:40,639
completely different.

1243
01:04:41,079 --> 01:04:47,199
Speaker 3: The way to related is that godhead or Hebrew ratia dilio.

1244
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 2: It's yeah, so let me let me come out of

1245
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,280
this way. Can you represent this godhead as a wave

1246
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,519
for them? Can you represent this godhead in mathematics? Because

1247
01:04:57,559 --> 01:05:00,000
I can do both for the Heisenberg uncertainty princes.

1248
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 3: Well, no, the analogy between quantum physics and the godhead

1249
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,519
is not one to one, but rather it's saying that

1250
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:09,159
this isn't.

1251
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 2: But that's yeah, not only yeah, it's not. It's an

1252
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,320
analogy that doesn't make any sense, right, because when we

1253
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,639
talk about science, we're talking about things that we can

1254
01:05:19,679 --> 01:05:23,000
prove through experiment, things that we know through mathematics that

1255
01:05:23,119 --> 01:05:26,519
gets backed up by experiments. I mean, we built, we

1256
01:05:26,599 --> 01:05:30,039
spend billions of dollars to build a super collior to

1257
01:05:30,079 --> 01:05:33,079
prove that one particle actually exists, that's the Higgs Boson, right,

1258
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,440
and the math turned out to be exactly right. But

1259
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,639
we still built this collidor so we could back the

1260
01:05:37,719 --> 01:05:42,079
math up. Physicists for open era wrong. And so to

1261
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:44,760
say that because of physics, which has all of this

1262
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,280
evidence behind it, is the same thing as your god,

1263
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:50,280
which has no evidence. And to say these two things

1264
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:53,719
are analogous, just to say that there's evidence, you're not

1265
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,519
comparing apples to apples by any stretch of the imagination.

1266
01:05:56,559 --> 01:05:58,840
If you're going to start saying that God exists, you

1267
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,039
can't go, well, physics exist, therefore God exists. It doesn't

1268
01:06:02,079 --> 01:06:04,880
make any sense none whatsoever. You just can't do it.

1269
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:08,599
So again we're back to you building a cumulative case

1270
01:06:08,639 --> 01:06:11,159
starting with zero and adding nothing to it.

1271
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 3: Well yeah, well, so that would be true if there's

1272
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,199
no ovens for God. But the whole idea is that

1273
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,679
if you can prove there's parallels between cabalistic concepts and

1274
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,159
modern physics concepts, that would be ovens for God.

1275
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 2: Right, there are no parallels. There are no parallels because

1276
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,519
in order to draw the parallel you need to do

1277
01:06:27,679 --> 01:06:30,800
math and provide evidence for the kabbola. Then you're making

1278
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:36,119
a correct analogous comparison between two things that are the same.

1279
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,639
You can't do that with God or the Kabla. You

1280
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:41,039
can't do the math to get to God. Can you

1281
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:42,679
conduct an experiment to get to God?

1282
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think you can do an empirical experiment

1283
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,400
in the laboratory.

1284
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 2: But then you're not comparing apples apples, are you. You're

1285
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,440
comparing apples to elephants, and you can't do that either.

1286
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:54,239
Speaker 4: Though.

1287
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 3: There are also interpretations of modern physics that rely on

1288
01:06:58,119 --> 01:07:01,760
unproven metaphysical posture. For example, the many worlds in Copenhagen

1289
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:06,199
interpretations positive in many worlds interpretations positive, Yeah, the.

1290
01:07:06,119 --> 01:07:09,639
Speaker 2: Many worlds, the many many worlds is a hypothesis, it's

1291
01:07:09,679 --> 01:07:13,639
it's not theory, and yes, the the the entire jury

1292
01:07:13,679 --> 01:07:16,199
is out on that. Physicists are debating that, and there

1293
01:07:16,199 --> 01:07:18,199
isn't much we can do until we can figure out

1294
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,440
how to figure figure out what's outside of the universe,

1295
01:07:21,599 --> 01:07:24,280
or better yet, does outside of the universe make any

1296
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:29,079
sense whatsoever. So we're not basing anything on physics on that.

1297
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:31,360
That is an area of physics that's still being debated,

1298
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,280
but nobody is building computers on that level of physics.

1299
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,960
Nobody is is trying to build quantum computers on that

1300
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:39,760
type of physics. So yes, that's all out there, but

1301
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,239
it doesn't really necessarily mean anything because we don't have

1302
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,280
the experimental data to do it. But we do have

1303
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,119
some math it seems to show that, but again we

1304
01:07:49,199 --> 01:07:53,320
need to actually back that math up with actual evidence

1305
01:07:53,519 --> 01:07:55,079
to make sure that we're doing the math right to

1306
01:07:55,159 --> 01:07:58,039
sometimes there are things we don't understand. So once again,

1307
01:07:58,119 --> 01:08:00,760
you're not comparing apples to apples. You're not even comparing

1308
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,199
apples to oranges. You're comparing apples to elephants. You're taking

1309
01:08:04,239 --> 01:08:07,719
something that is based on good math and good experimental

1310
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:11,039
evidence and comparing it to something that can't be expressed

1311
01:08:11,039 --> 01:08:13,480
in math and has absolutely no experimental evidence to it.

1312
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:16,079
So you're not even in the same universe to make

1313
01:08:16,119 --> 01:08:17,960
these comparisons to make this analogy.

1314
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 3: Well, I'm same. But the point is that the evidence

1315
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,520
can be interpreted in most of ways. So what's known

1316
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,640
as underdetermined. So the evidence is consistent with the Copenhagen interpretation,

1317
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,920
the many world interpretations, possibly the bombing interpretation.

1318
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:35,039
Speaker 2: Although so what so you know what? So is Harry

1319
01:08:35,079 --> 01:08:36,479
Potter who cares? Right?

1320
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 3: But you're saying that you need evidence, and I'm saying

1321
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,000
Harry can point to multiple directions.

1322
01:08:41,199 --> 01:08:46,079
Speaker 2: It doesn't, yeah, right, if you want to really it doesn't.

1323
01:08:46,199 --> 01:08:47,720
But if you if you want to make that claim,

1324
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,520
I'll go with it, and I will say that modern

1325
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:54,199
physics is evidence that Harry Potter is trip. But I

1326
01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:56,880
use the exact same arguments you just gave me to

1327
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:57,800
do the same thing.

1328
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 3: But I think the evidence is awesome, so consistent with

1329
01:09:01,079 --> 01:09:03,239
Kabbala as I understand it, and.

1330
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 2: I think the evidence is also consistent with the You know,

1331
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,439
I don't want to use Harry Potter. Let's use Harry Resident.

1332
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,760
It's much better. And Harry Resident actually has God and

1333
01:09:13,239 --> 01:09:19,079
his magic actually works better. So between Harry Resident's world,

1334
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:22,439
so you know, you can make this comparison, but it

1335
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:27,000
doesn't mean anything. Right, Harry Residen lives in Chicago. Chicago's

1336
01:09:27,039 --> 01:09:30,479
a place that exists, So what Harry Residen's magic is

1337
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,479
kind of sort of based on physics but not really.

1338
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:34,159
So we can go, we can we can do this

1339
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:37,079
all day long, and we just take everything you say

1340
01:09:37,119 --> 01:09:39,319
and substitute Harry Dresden for instead of tabla.

1341
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: Also keep in mind, Jim that in the Harry Potter

1342
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:47,439
novels Neville long Bottom won the won the gold for

1343
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:51,479
Gryffindor by ten points. So and there's ten there's ten

1344
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:57,239
wizarding levels, so like the ten ordinary levels. Yeah, I mean,

1345
01:09:57,279 --> 01:10:01,000
clearly this is indication that Harry Potter is divinely inspired.

1346
01:10:01,399 --> 01:10:03,640
Speaker 2: Okay, so just do you see how we're making the

1347
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,359
same arguments you are. That you see how we're making

1348
01:10:07,399 --> 01:10:10,159
the same points you are, and that it makes absolutely

1349
01:10:10,239 --> 01:10:10,640
no sense.

1350
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,520
Speaker 3: Not really, but I'm just trying. That's why I'm trying

1351
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:15,880
to ask this perfine question. Is your point just that

1352
01:10:16,399 --> 01:10:20,039
just because there are conceptual parallels between Kabbala and modern

1353
01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:22,960
yeris and quantum physics. That Kabbala is not like either

1354
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,760
the Copenhagen interpretation or Many Worlds or Bowman or any

1355
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:30,079
other interpretation, because unlike those interpretations of quantum physics, what

1356
01:10:30,079 --> 01:10:32,880
we're saying is.

1357
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:36,039
Speaker 1: The conceptual linkage isn't even there. You're just you're grabbing

1358
01:10:36,039 --> 01:10:39,880
on to random numbers or random phrases and saying, look,

1359
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:42,319
here's a random phrase that shows up somewhere else. It

1360
01:10:42,399 --> 01:10:44,760
must be a conceptual link It's not there. This is

1361
01:10:45,159 --> 01:10:46,960
paradolia best thing.

1362
01:10:47,119 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 3: Yes, you're saying yes to my question?

1363
01:10:49,239 --> 01:10:50,319
Speaker 4: Do you think yes, I'm not.

1364
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is your Your question is nonsensical because

1365
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,920
it assumes the truthfulness of the premise behind it, which

1366
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:56,640
I've rejected.

1367
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 6: That's not what I said.

1368
01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:58,560
Speaker 2: What I'm saying.

1369
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,199
Speaker 3: Are you saying that it is? I don't think you missed.

1370
01:11:01,239 --> 01:11:02,359
You are missing my question.

1371
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,079
Speaker 2: Go ahead and ask you again. We'll see if we can.

1372
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,520
Speaker 3: Okay, last time, what I was asking one, do you

1373
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,399
think it's wrong to make parallels between different interpretations being

1374
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:16,039
underdetermined quantum physics like the Bomian interpretation, Copenhagen interpretation, Many

1375
01:11:16,039 --> 01:11:20,880
World's interpretations, and Cabala because unlike unlike Kabala, there's other

1376
01:11:21,039 --> 01:11:25,960
interpretations of constantics have actual empirical support for them that

1377
01:11:26,039 --> 01:11:29,800
are tested both using mathematics and logic, and Kabbala does

1378
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,279
not have some terical support for it is not by

1379
01:11:32,279 --> 01:11:33,199
mathematics and logic.

1380
01:11:33,399 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, you're comparing apples to elephants. So let's just

1381
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,960
take these ten emanations, right, what dimension from it? Will

1382
01:11:43,039 --> 01:11:47,840
just assume it's to ten. For string theory applies to crown.

1383
01:11:48,319 --> 01:11:52,279
Is that time? Is that the three dimensions of space?

1384
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,239
Or is that one of the other dimensions that string

1385
01:11:55,319 --> 01:11:58,119
theory requires? How do you get there? How do you

1386
01:11:58,159 --> 01:12:02,159
get from divine crown, kettered vine crown to any one

1387
01:12:02,159 --> 01:12:05,000
of the ten dimensions and strength theory?

1388
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:10,319
Speaker 3: So I'm not alist, But the thing is, you said

1389
01:12:10,399 --> 01:12:10,840
the question.

1390
01:12:11,159 --> 01:12:17,359
Speaker 2: So you just said you're saying that the ten emanations

1391
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:20,399
is the same as the ten dimensions. And now I'm

1392
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,319
asking you to draw me the bridge to build that

1393
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,399
bridge right starting with and you can take any of

1394
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,560
the one as a crown, wisdom, understanding, mercy, justice, beauty, eternity, glory, foundation,

1395
01:12:31,159 --> 01:12:34,600
and presence in the world. Okay, So which of those

1396
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,600
corresponds to the dimension of time.

1397
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 3: I don't know what I was saying was so.

1398
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 2: If you don't know, then how are you making this? Compare?

1399
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,399
How are you making this analogy? If you don't know,

1400
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:45,600
how do you make the analogy?

1401
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 4: Person?

1402
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:46,560
Speaker 6: Let me answer it.

1403
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 3: Well, you're asking me a question, but you keep interrupting

1404
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,039
when I try to answer how I'm making the analogy?

1405
01:12:51,079 --> 01:12:53,840
Which is that I got the analogy between cabbala and

1406
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:57,880
quantum physics from two scholars. The first is whereby Yitsak

1407
01:12:58,119 --> 01:13:02,239
Ginsberg that's Yitsock why A C C U the H

1408
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:05,880
A K and last named Ginsburg. And then the other

1409
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,039
rabbi that I got this one was a man named

1410
01:13:08,119 --> 01:13:11,279
him Shipper. That's high am c H A I M

1411
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,560
C S C h I T T E R. If

1412
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:15,479
you want to know.

1413
01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:19,279
Speaker 2: Do they answer the question? And do they answer the question?

1414
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:24,880
How do you get which which are the ten emanations corresponds?

1415
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:28,199
Is analogous to time or the three dimensions of three

1416
01:13:28,239 --> 01:13:31,800
dimensional space X, Y or z. Right, that's the question

1417
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,000
you've got to answer. And you can't answer that question.

1418
01:13:34,359 --> 01:13:37,039
And do you see how we're where? You're still building

1419
01:13:37,119 --> 01:13:40,840
nothing on top of nothing, on top of nothing, just nothing,

1420
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:41,960
burder all the way down.

1421
01:13:42,239 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 3: I can't answer the question because I'm not next in Kabala.

1422
01:13:45,159 --> 01:13:48,039
But if you would like an actual an answer from

1423
01:13:48,079 --> 01:13:51,399
someone who does know cabalas, you could email or send

1424
01:13:51,399 --> 01:13:52,079
a comment.

1425
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 2: You're the one we're talking to.

1426
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 3: You.

1427
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 2: You're the one who's making the clim You're the You're

1428
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,319
the one that's making the claim, Hannah, not us. And

1429
01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:01,800
if you can't answer these questions that I would suggest

1430
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,000
you don't know enough despite your years of studying. This

1431
01:14:05,239 --> 01:14:07,359
is according to if I remember what you said correctly,

1432
01:14:07,359 --> 01:14:10,520
and I may not. Uh so what you haven't done

1433
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:11,880
anything to prove your case?

1434
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 3: I think, well, I think you're learning my dudism. But

1435
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,079
Kabbala and conscienthsics is something I'm relatively new to. This

1436
01:14:18,159 --> 01:14:20,199
is just based off of some lectures I listen to

1437
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:22,880
and some articles I write. By no means my area

1438
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,199
of expertise. I'm just saying this. A lot of these

1439
01:14:25,239 --> 01:14:28,319
specific details, like which are the ten dimensions according to

1440
01:14:28,359 --> 01:14:31,279
such a road or something like that, are better as

1441
01:14:31,359 --> 01:14:35,479
for a practicing complist than even someone who has spent years.

1442
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:40,279
Speaker 1: Hannah, just pause for a second, because we're running short

1443
01:14:40,279 --> 01:14:42,880
on time. I want to get to another caller before

1444
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,039
we run out of time. You've been calling into this

1445
01:14:45,119 --> 01:14:48,840
show as long as last what three or four years?

1446
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:49,199
Speaker 2: Correct?

1447
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I don't believe three or four years.

1448
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:52,039
Speaker 6: Now.

1449
01:14:52,319 --> 01:14:54,560
Speaker 1: I've seen you call into this show at least a

1450
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,880
dozen times, and every time you call in, you've got

1451
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,880
some new, brand new kind of way out out their theory,

1452
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,720
and it never ends well, like, you've never come close

1453
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,760
to demonstrating the truthfulness of your claim. Why why do

1454
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,880
you keep calling in thinking finally this will be the

1455
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,239
argument that does it?

1456
01:15:11,359 --> 01:15:15,039
Speaker 3: Because I presume it's how are you trying to convince evidential?

1457
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,640
I presume that if it's a convincing evidential case like

1458
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,439
in this case, I was thinking that the parallels between

1459
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,600
constant physics and cabalistic concepts would be convincing evidential case

1460
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,760
that they'll convince easure to host for the audience to

1461
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,600
re examine their skepticism to God and.

1462
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:33,279
Speaker 2: So based on what Because you obviously didn't do enough

1463
01:15:33,319 --> 01:15:36,159
research other than go, oh, look this says ten, and

1464
01:15:36,199 --> 01:15:39,479
this says ten. Therefore the same thing, that's the extent

1465
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,399
of what you've given us, that's the extent of your thinking.

1466
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:45,279
Speaker 3: Well, I also gave you the Heisenberg. I also gave

1467
01:15:45,319 --> 01:15:48,239
you the Heisenberg un certainty principle being correlated.

1468
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:51,039
Speaker 1: It is nothing to do with God, but is God

1469
01:15:51,079 --> 01:15:52,680
a part of which is you?

1470
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 2: Which was actually even worse. That analogy was actually worse

1471
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,720
than your ten things in physics and ten things in

1472
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,039
comb It was worse. It wasn't fatter. I don't want

1473
01:16:03,039 --> 01:16:04,760
to talk about that because I don't want tobarrassh you

1474
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,159
with that, because that just makes it you sound even

1475
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,520
less able to critically think about things.

1476
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. If you object to analogies, have

1477
01:16:14,159 --> 01:16:20,640
you considered asking practicing Orthodox Jewish kabbalist or physicists who actually.

1478
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:23,560
Speaker 1: Not remotely interested. You can have them call in the

1479
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,479
show and then we'll talk to them. But we're not

1480
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,159
going to go out and search like you're weird Jewish

1481
01:16:28,239 --> 01:16:31,199
mistressism woo woo, and try to make parallels where they

1482
01:16:31,199 --> 01:16:32,960
don't exist. We've already seen what it's done to you.

1483
01:16:33,039 --> 01:16:35,680
We're not interested in that. But listen, Hannah, we appreciate

1484
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:37,800
you calling in again. We're going to get to the

1485
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,600
next caller. We've got very limited time left, so thank

1486
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:42,920
you for calling, and I will see you again in

1487
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:45,840
a couple of weeks. I'm sure. Okay, I'll never understand

1488
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,279
why Hannah keeps calling it never it never ends the

1489
01:16:49,279 --> 01:16:52,199
way they're hoping. I don't know why they think that

1490
01:16:52,319 --> 01:16:54,239
something new is going to happen this time. But anyways,

1491
01:16:54,319 --> 01:16:56,359
I mean, we appreciate the phone call either way. Let's

1492
01:16:56,359 --> 01:16:59,479
grab Benji from the queue. Benji's theist and says that

1493
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:02,000
Possy the end of the world's happening soon.

1494
01:17:03,279 --> 01:17:05,520
Speaker 2: Let's see the world as we know it, And I

1495
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,840
feel fine. There's a song about that. I'm actually good.

1496
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 1: It's a great time.

1497
01:17:11,159 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 2: I like that.

1498
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:16,319
Speaker 6: Tom the well. I was sitting here listening, and is

1499
01:17:16,359 --> 01:17:19,079
it okay if I find the subject to another topic

1500
01:17:19,199 --> 01:17:20,520
or doing to just sit with that one?

1501
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:24,039
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, maybe I don't know what's your next topic.

1502
01:17:24,039 --> 01:17:25,119
I thought the end of the world was going to

1503
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:25,680
be interesting.

1504
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,399
Speaker 6: Well I thought so too, but I don't really have

1505
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,199
any good arguments for it. I'm sad I had.

1506
01:17:31,399 --> 01:17:34,079
Speaker 1: But do you do you believe the world's ending?

1507
01:17:34,399 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 6: If these have showed up in front of y'all, you

1508
01:17:37,039 --> 01:17:40,279
still wouldn't worship them because you don't agree with the doctrine.

1509
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,560
Speaker 2: And according to Trip, the reason I wouldn't worship I

1510
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,600
wouldn't worship me because I believe that no being is

1511
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:47,720
worthy of worship, right.

1512
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 6: I understand there's a lot of reasons not to. I'm

1513
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,640
just trying to make the point, will trick.

1514
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:57,159
Speaker 1: According to if Mohammad and that the if Mohammad showed

1515
01:17:57,199 --> 01:17:59,960
up to you, would you worship Mohammad? Would you be

1516
01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:01,039
musn't believe he?

1517
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:02,680
Speaker 6: I would believe It's.

1518
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,079
Speaker 1: Great, Okay, just making sure that you're holding yourself to

1519
01:18:06,119 --> 01:18:07,880
the sam standard. You're about to hold us too.

1520
01:18:08,159 --> 01:18:11,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, I am. I was just making the point that

1521
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,840
in the Tristan doctrine, you have to worship Jesus to

1522
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:18,960
be a actual Christian. You can believe that He appeared

1523
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,880
to you. Now you would know He exists, but you

1524
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:23,600
still wouldn't be assistant. And so I was wondering a

1525
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,560
lot of the Tristans that call in to try to

1526
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,079
convert your back to Christianity if you was a Christian before,

1527
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:35,399
or whatever religion you was, or you know, denomination. I

1528
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,439
was wondering, is there really a point to that, because

1529
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:40,479
at the end of the day, it's subjective, like you

1530
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,159
can choose nothing to what worship him.

1531
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,199
Speaker 2: The existence of a being is not subjective. The existence

1532
01:18:47,239 --> 01:18:49,680
of a being is not subjective. It's objective. And that's

1533
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:53,199
what we're looking for, is objective evidence that your God exists.

1534
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 6: I'm saying the worshiping is subjective, not the existent. Sure

1535
01:18:57,840 --> 01:18:59,800
in front of you you would know he exists, but

1536
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:02,279
it still subjective on your part if you want to

1537
01:19:02,319 --> 01:19:05,039
worship him or not. And so you don't worship him

1538
01:19:05,039 --> 01:19:08,359
the coin the Christian doctrine, you wouldn't be a true

1539
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:11,439
Christian or you know that christ Dootson's fallacy bullshit whatever.

1540
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:16,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, the other the question isn't The question isn't can

1541
01:19:16,119 --> 01:19:18,039
you prove that we should worship your God? The question

1542
01:19:18,279 --> 01:19:21,399
is does your God exist? Those are two different questions.

1543
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:22,399
That's the point.

1544
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 6: Well, I was just given a hypothetical us you knew

1545
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,760
that he did exist? Is where I was going with that.

1546
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,359
But also, are you familiar with the terror of fallacy

1547
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,960
that any evidence, no matter how big it would be,

1548
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:38,159
would be insufficient, because I've heard some of you and

1549
01:19:38,159 --> 01:19:38,439
I'm not.

1550
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you've fallen into it. You just

1551
01:19:41,159 --> 01:19:44,479
said that it would be insufficient for you to become Muslim.

1552
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 6: No, No, I said I wouldn't worship him. I didn't

1553
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,399
say I wouldn't believe it, No, I just wouldn't want.

1554
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 1: Well belief and worship. Obviously we agree with two different things.

1555
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:59,840
But the reality is like, we have the same standard

1556
01:20:00,159 --> 01:20:02,600
you have. Right, You're trying to accuse us of some

1557
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,159
kind of a bias, and this is not going to

1558
01:20:04,199 --> 01:20:07,079
work because any bias that you applied to us in Christianity,

1559
01:20:07,119 --> 01:20:09,159
we're going to apply it to you, and like every

1560
01:20:09,159 --> 01:20:10,359
other religion on the planet.

1561
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:14,079
Speaker 6: Well, I don't think you're doing it, but I've watched

1562
01:20:14,199 --> 01:20:17,920
videos now where people well they don't know what would

1563
01:20:18,039 --> 01:20:18,800
convince them.

1564
01:20:19,159 --> 01:20:21,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, that may be true, but you're talking to two

1565
01:20:21,079 --> 01:20:23,399
people right now that have their own opinions. You want

1566
01:20:23,399 --> 01:20:26,680
to ask us what our opinions are. Opinion, I know

1567
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,479
what it would take to convince me. Okay, to be sure,

1568
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:31,600
you can say I don't know, and that's a perfectly

1569
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,720
fair answer. I do know if every prediction in the

1570
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,279
Hebrew Bible came true, I would be convinced that the

1571
01:20:37,319 --> 01:20:39,600
God of the Hebrew Bible is true. Now, I would

1572
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:43,439
never be convinced of Christianity because Christianity contradicts the Hebrew Bible,

1573
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:46,279
which is it's source material and you can't contradict your

1574
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:49,920
source materials. So Christianity is dead in the water. That

1575
01:20:50,039 --> 01:20:52,159
being said, if there was a book that made all

1576
01:20:52,239 --> 01:20:54,399
kinds of predictions and every single one of them came

1577
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,159
true in the timeframe that they were predicted, I would

1578
01:20:57,159 --> 01:20:59,600
find that to be very compelling evidence. That doesn't mean

1579
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:02,159
it would be compelling evidence for everyone, right.

1580
01:21:02,159 --> 01:21:06,319
Speaker 6: Because everyone is subventive and everyone is independent on what

1581
01:21:06,359 --> 01:21:08,159
would convince them. I understand that.

1582
01:21:08,239 --> 01:21:10,399
Speaker 2: Well, no, because for me, it would depend on the

1583
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:14,520
circumstances in which so it depends on the circumstances that

1584
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:17,720
those prophecies were made. For instance, of the prophecy is

1585
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,920
that a temple will be built and people start working

1586
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:23,079
on building a temple. That to me is not fulfillment

1587
01:21:23,079 --> 01:21:26,720
of a prophecy. It's just people building a temple maybe

1588
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,640
because of the prophecy, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

1589
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:32,840
So it would depend on the circumstances. It would be

1590
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,760
sufficient good evidence. Now what evidence is it, I don't

1591
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,760
know because all the evidence I've seen so far has

1592
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:42,680
been horrifyingly bad. So if you're going to come up

1593
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:44,600
with evidence, it's going to have to be something better

1594
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:46,640
than what's already been presented on this show for the

1595
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:48,319
last nearly thirty years.

1596
01:21:49,199 --> 01:21:52,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know it's about twenty five years something that

1597
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:58,760
then as hard as for telling the future or you know,

1598
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:03,520
stuff like that, the stuff that it says would have

1599
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:06,880
to be very specific and not subject to any other

1600
01:22:07,039 --> 01:22:09,960
kind of way to troll to where it's specifically talking

1601
01:22:10,039 --> 01:22:12,199
about that one of them to nothing else for.

1602
01:22:12,279 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 2: Your prophecy, yes, yeah, it proviously needs to be very specific.

1603
01:22:16,159 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's generic, like you know something so like

1604
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,840
there's going to be wars. Yeah, yeah, we get that.

1605
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,199
There's always gonna be wars. That's not a real prophecy.

1606
01:22:25,239 --> 01:22:26,199
Speaker 6: There's always been war.

1607
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 2: I mean a prophecy that someone's going to that a temples,

1608
01:22:30,159 --> 01:22:32,600
the temple is going to appear and people start working

1609
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,359
on the temple. That doesn't work for me either.

1610
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, it doesn't work for me either. I wouldn't count

1611
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:39,920
that as a prophecy either.

1612
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:43,840
Speaker 1: And I would say that failed prophecies are good evidence

1613
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:48,159
that something's not true. What was that that failed prophecies

1614
01:22:48,199 --> 01:22:50,760
are also good evidence that something is not true, Like

1615
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:52,600
we're talking about what it would take us to convince

1616
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:55,600
that it's true. Well, the reality is the inverse is true.

1617
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:59,520
When the prophecies fail, we're obviously convinced that it's not true.

1618
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,000
That's why Christianity and Judaism are both dead in the

1619
01:23:03,039 --> 01:23:06,640
water because of all the filled prophecies. In my opinion, well.

1620
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:09,119
Speaker 6: The only other thing I was and the reason I

1621
01:23:09,159 --> 01:23:13,159
brought up terror fallacy is because the teriff and correct

1622
01:23:13,199 --> 01:23:15,920
me if I won't hear. But the terror fallacy is basically,

1623
01:23:16,159 --> 01:23:19,039
any evidence that would be presented to someone would they

1624
01:23:19,039 --> 01:23:21,640
would just be They would be insufficient to them. They

1625
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:25,640
would want more, you know, something else, basically that, and

1626
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:29,039
then it just adds on top of itself. And in science,

1627
01:23:29,199 --> 01:23:32,640
science is always self correcting itself. And so if you

1628
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:36,279
make the discovery, you put a hypothesis, and then you

1629
01:23:36,319 --> 01:23:39,279
test the aposthesis and you do multiple tests and you

1630
01:23:39,319 --> 01:23:43,960
have group testing and independent confirmation and that kind of thing.

1631
01:23:44,239 --> 01:23:48,159
And with religion you can't really do that because religison

1632
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,520
is set on the basis of here's what happened. You

1633
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,159
have to believe that there's there's you know, fates, and

1634
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:57,479
even the definition in the Bible of fates, it's evidence

1635
01:23:57,520 --> 01:23:59,720
for stuff unseen, which obviously made so sense.

1636
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 2: So why are you a theist. I mean it says

1637
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:07,039
here you're a theist and you're making perfectly good atheist arguments.

1638
01:24:07,079 --> 01:24:11,399
Speaker 1: Oh okay, cool, well listen, Benji. We appreciate you coming

1639
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:14,720
up and chat with us. Sad we didn't get to

1640
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,079
the end of the world, but that's okay. We've got

1641
01:24:17,079 --> 01:24:20,600
one more caller in line, and we're we're kind of

1642
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,000
getting over our time limit here, so I'm going to

1643
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,239
get the next caller in, but thanks for calling in, friend.

1644
01:24:26,119 --> 01:24:29,039
Speaker 6: Go beforeen you go, can you tell me what time

1645
01:24:29,159 --> 01:24:31,640
y'all stark as just experience time.

1646
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 1: Central time is four thirty okay, sure, sure, sure, all right.

1647
01:24:36,039 --> 01:24:39,359
We've got one theist or atheist left, and then we're

1648
01:24:39,359 --> 01:24:41,760
going to read off our super chats. We've got a

1649
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,159
call from Jim in Missouri's been waiting here for an

1650
01:24:44,199 --> 01:24:47,800
hour and forty minutes. Ask if there's an omniscient God,

1651
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:50,760
do we have free will? And I think this is

1652
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:54,039
a really good question. What do you think? What do

1653
01:24:54,039 --> 01:24:59,239
you think, Jim? We have we have Jim talking to Jim. Now, yeah,

1654
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:00,600
done that before.

1655
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:03,840
Speaker 7: But the reason I say that if God is omniscient,

1656
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:06,760
if God exists, you know, you know, do we actually

1657
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:08,479
have free will because he knows what we're going to

1658
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:09,760
do before we do it.

1659
01:25:10,039 --> 01:25:14,359
Speaker 2: Well, the real question, So if it's just omniscience and

1660
01:25:14,399 --> 01:25:17,039
none of the other two properties, then yes we do

1661
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:19,920
just because God knows what we're thinking, and thinking is

1662
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,960
something that is a definite property. I mean, we have

1663
01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:27,560
a neuroscientists right now who can simple thoughts, not super

1664
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:32,000
complex ones of seconds before that thought becomes conscious, So

1665
01:25:32,079 --> 01:25:35,840
that's something that is knowable. So if it's just omniscience,

1666
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:41,119
then yes, we still have free will. If it's omnipotence.

1667
01:25:41,159 --> 01:25:45,279
With omniscience, that becomes a little bit more difficult because

1668
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,760
God would know this our states of mind and how

1669
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:50,920
the neurons are going to fire in such a way

1670
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,359
that we're going to make a decision, and He has

1671
01:25:53,359 --> 01:25:55,680
the power to change the universe in such a way

1672
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:58,520
that we'll make a different decision. So once you start

1673
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:01,439
adding that omnipotence, and you can make the question that

1674
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:04,640
we really have very well because God can change the

1675
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:07,119
universe in ways that will cause us to make a

1676
01:26:07,159 --> 01:26:08,840
different decision. Does that make sense?

1677
01:26:09,039 --> 01:26:11,079
Speaker 7: Yeah, And that's kind of what my point was. If

1678
01:26:11,079 --> 01:26:14,840
he's omniscient, omnipotent, you know all the other omnis then,

1679
01:26:15,119 --> 01:26:17,640
you know, would we actually have free will? You know,

1680
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,720
I one time I like to compare like the story

1681
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:24,119
of Job to the nineteen nineteen World Series. You know,

1682
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:27,760
all the gamblers they were betting on the Cincinnati Reds

1683
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:30,119
to win because they knew that the Chicago White Sox

1684
01:26:30,199 --> 01:26:32,279
were going to take a dive, So why wouldn't they

1685
01:26:32,279 --> 01:26:33,039
get on the Reds.

1686
01:26:33,359 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 2: Well, it's a little more subtle than that, because God's

1687
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:38,560
setting up the universe in a special way for us

1688
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,079
to make the decisions he wants us to make. And

1689
01:26:41,119 --> 01:26:44,039
that's what would take away free will. If God chooses

1690
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:47,399
not to make any to change the universe, and we

1691
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,439
would still have free will. So it's a little more

1692
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:54,079
subtle than everybody thinking that the White Sox are going

1693
01:26:54,159 --> 01:26:54,720
to take a dive.

1694
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 7: Well, I'm just saying. I mean, to me, like if

1695
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:00,760
I knew that somebody was going to make bad decision

1696
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:02,279
and you know they weren't going to believe in me

1697
01:27:02,319 --> 01:27:04,640
and I love them so much, you know, to me,

1698
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,000
it's like here's an idea. I don't create that person.

1699
01:27:07,119 --> 01:27:09,039
I just say, okay, he never exists.

1700
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:11,319
Speaker 2: Well, no, you would actually set it up so that

1701
01:27:11,359 --> 01:27:14,319
person would would believe, right, because you would know what

1702
01:27:14,359 --> 01:27:15,960
it would take for that person to believe, and you

1703
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:17,119
would provide that evidence.

1704
01:27:17,359 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 7: I could do that too, But or again, I could

1705
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,279
just say, yes, they've got free will, they can disobey me.

1706
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 2: I just know that they won't, right, you know, because

1707
01:27:25,039 --> 01:27:27,159
I've created the universe in such a way that my

1708
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,800
existence and belief in me and worshiping me is so

1709
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:33,720
obviously the right thing to do that nobody can deny it. Yeah,

1710
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:36,840
and he didn't create that universe. So where are we? Right?

1711
01:27:37,399 --> 01:27:39,520
Speaker 7: Well, like I said, I don't believe it, all of

1712
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:42,680
it anyway. So you know, I'm throwing out a an

1713
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,840
interesting question of you know, there's only one way we

1714
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:49,119
can really have free will, and that's God can't be omniscient.

1715
01:27:49,239 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 2: Well, he can't be omniscient and omnipotent.

1716
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,319
Speaker 7: Right, you know, as I filled believers, he can't be

1717
01:27:54,359 --> 01:27:56,520
all if he exists, he can't be all three. He

1718
01:27:56,600 --> 01:28:01,359
can't be omniscient, omnipotent, and omni manevolent.

1719
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:03,319
Speaker 2: Benevolent right, well, he can't be how many benevolent if

1720
01:28:03,319 --> 01:28:06,279
evil exists in the world, right, and the other two

1721
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,760
because he could be omnim benevolent and have no power

1722
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:12,239
to change the world, and that would still be okay.

1723
01:28:12,279 --> 01:28:14,960
He could be omnium benevolent, and omniscient and that would

1724
01:28:15,039 --> 01:28:17,600
still fit. But he couldn't be all three at the

1725
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,319
same time. You can't have all three points of the triangle.

1726
01:28:20,359 --> 01:28:22,720
It just doesn't work that way. So yeah, I mean,

1727
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,039
and of course they will point to free will, but

1728
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:28,600
that means every time a Christian points to free will

1729
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,640
and saying, well, God allows free will and that's where

1730
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:34,159
evil comes from, then you're living in God's power to

1731
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,600
directly violating free will. And we know he's willing to

1732
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:40,239
do that because he did that to Pharaoh's heart, right.

1733
01:28:40,319 --> 01:28:44,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well to me, that also says maybe he's a sadist,

1734
01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:45,000
then he's.

1735
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,359
Speaker 2: Not omnimb out benevolent, unless, of course it's their kink,

1736
01:28:47,359 --> 01:28:49,760
in which case we don't kink shame around here. Right.

1737
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 7: Well, you know again, you know, going back to Pharaoh,

1738
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:55,960
it's like there were points he that he was even

1739
01:28:56,159 --> 01:28:58,880
Pharaoh was even saying, look, I give uncle, you guys

1740
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:03,119
can leave and God, hardness are you No, I'm right,

1741
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:06,359
I'm not done with you yet. Right, I'm not done

1742
01:29:06,399 --> 01:29:07,800
showing you how powerful I am.

1743
01:29:08,199 --> 01:29:10,199
Speaker 2: I got to show off by killing all these children,

1744
01:29:11,399 --> 01:29:13,439
and there's the whole talking donkey incident.

1745
01:29:14,399 --> 01:29:15,600
Speaker 6: Well not only that, but Pharaoh.

1746
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:17,680
Speaker 7: It's like, if he knew that was the one he

1747
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:18,800
that would do it, It's.

1748
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 2: Like, why do he just lead with that? Right? Well?

1749
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 7: Why did we have to have all the other How

1750
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:23,319
are many.

1751
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:27,319
Speaker 2: All fun stuff? All fun stuff to have while drinking

1752
01:29:27,319 --> 01:29:30,600
a glass of wine or five yeah, or a beer

1753
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,920
or the beverage of your choice adultera otherwise, Oh yes,

1754
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,520
well mine's a beer, so hey, yeah, either way, I

1755
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:38,880
like you good beer TOOI.

1756
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for calling in, and thank you for waiting

1757
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:44,520
on the line, and we really appreciate the question. And

1758
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:47,079
we got to wrap up the show. But we'll be

1759
01:29:47,119 --> 01:29:48,479
live again same time next week.

1760
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 7: Okay, alrighty, well, I hope.

1761
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 1: All right, cheers, have a good one, fair enough question.

1762
01:29:54,239 --> 01:29:59,760
I remember going through the cycle on this particular question

1763
01:30:00,119 --> 01:30:02,319
number of times before I arrived at the same conclusion

1764
01:30:02,319 --> 01:30:04,880
that you're at, which is, you can know all things

1765
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:09,760
and still not have like predetermination. Predetermination requires a couple

1766
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,680
other things, namely being the creator of all things. But

1767
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:15,640
with that, let's read some super chats and we'll close

1768
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:17,439
out the show. Do you have access to the super

1769
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:19,880
chats or just mean just to you. I think, okay,

1770
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:22,600
I'm going to read through our super chats. We've got

1771
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:25,520
a ten dollars super chat from our friend. Daisy says.

1772
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:27,800
If Christians read the Bible to get closer to God,

1773
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:31,359
what do atheists read to solidify their non belief?

1774
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:31,520
Speaker 2: Like?

1775
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,560
Speaker 1: What are the atheist Bibles?

1776
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:38,039
Speaker 2: There aren't any, really, I mean not in the same

1777
01:30:38,039 --> 01:30:40,119
way that the Christians have a Bible. I don't think

1778
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:43,640
you can read science books and realize that God's not

1779
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:47,319
necessary for anything. You can read philosophy on epistemology or

1780
01:30:47,359 --> 01:30:48,600
philosophy religion.

1781
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:52,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you read from the Bible.

1782
01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 2: I was going to leave that one for you just because.

1783
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, if you want to know about

1784
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,119
how God is ridiculous, read the Holy books.

1785
01:31:06,119 --> 01:31:06,279
Speaker 4: Man.

1786
01:31:06,319 --> 01:31:10,359
Speaker 1: They're full of crazy stuff. And it's not just Christianity,

1787
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:12,439
Like all the Holy Books got some nonsense in it.

1788
01:31:13,279 --> 01:31:15,760
That's how I deconstructed. But there are obviously there are

1789
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:19,720
great secular authors out there. I would certainly, you know,

1790
01:31:20,039 --> 01:31:24,000
recommend like the Four Horsemen, you know, and then read scholarship.

1791
01:31:24,039 --> 01:31:28,840
Scholarship is surprisingly pretty pretty honest in the world of

1792
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,479
like biblical studies and even chronic studies. We've got a

1793
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,479
nineteen ninety nine hour super chat from our friends Zen.

1794
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,760
Thank you so much, Zen, since its high Justin, I've

1795
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,119
given up trying to follow you when you're not cooking

1796
01:31:41,159 --> 01:31:44,119
at home, Always happy to learn from you wherever you are.

1797
01:31:44,159 --> 01:31:46,880
The aroma of Christians is just as pleasing on the

1798
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:50,279
other grills. Rock card for dog. Well, thank you then,

1799
01:31:50,279 --> 01:31:53,640
I appreciate it. I'm sorry I've bounced it around, especially

1800
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,880
on Sundays and Sundays. I'm I'm really no longer streaming

1801
01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:58,640
on my own channel at this point. I'm just streaming

1802
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:03,560
on friends' annals and unapologetic. So hey, thanks for following me.

1803
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:07,279
I appreciate that. And d Frederick, thank you for the

1804
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:11,840
nine ninety nine says, does a theistic evolution contemplate a

1805
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:15,560
God who planned out the genetic changes or the environmental

1806
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:19,600
changes driving selection. That's a fair point.

1807
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 2: What do you think, Jim, Well, so, if evolution is

1808
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:26,319
theistic or evidence of a God, which I don't think

1809
01:32:26,359 --> 01:32:29,239
it is, then yeah he would. I mean again, we

1810
01:32:29,319 --> 01:32:31,720
go back to that on evident god thing. God created

1811
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:34,079
the universe in such a way that this is exactly

1812
01:32:34,159 --> 01:32:36,239
what he wants evil in all which means he can't

1813
01:32:36,239 --> 01:32:39,359
be all right. So I don't know how theistic evolution

1814
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:42,159
would actually work because would depend on the god definition

1815
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:43,279
that you use.

1816
01:32:44,319 --> 01:32:46,159
Speaker 1: And I think my friend Ian was the one who

1817
01:32:46,159 --> 01:32:48,800
turned it beyond to this idea that if there is

1818
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:53,159
theistic evolution, what a weird deity to use the most

1819
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:58,079
carnage barbarian way possible to go from the beginning of

1820
01:32:58,159 --> 01:33:03,279
species to today and there's completely carnage after. Yeah, there's

1821
01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:06,720
so much, just kind of like a kick it off

1822
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:09,800
the cliff and see what happens type of situation over here, Like,

1823
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:12,800
what are we doing? If that's the best that the

1824
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,800
God can do, I'm not impressed. I'm not even convinced

1825
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:19,039
that this God knows what's going on or God's maybe plural.

1826
01:33:19,399 --> 01:33:22,079
Gretchen Z, thank you for the three dollars and eleven

1827
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:26,319
sent supertest says absence makes the church grow fondlers.

1828
01:33:26,520 --> 01:33:33,119
Speaker 2: Ohoo, that it's true.

1829
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean that that's I mean, that was good. That

1830
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,880
was good. I appreciate the joke, gretchen You know, I

1831
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:43,560
love a good joke, and we obviously appreciate that. Here

1832
01:33:44,039 --> 01:33:46,359
j Ser Jake, I hope I have said that, right,

1833
01:33:46,399 --> 01:33:48,520
thank you for the fight hour, Supertest, says the Kabola

1834
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:53,680
masters sadly all passed in the show. Uh, folks claiming

1835
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,439
to understand Kabola are selling you a crop of bs.

1836
01:33:56,520 --> 01:33:58,640
No one would say it's quantum.

1837
01:33:58,960 --> 01:33:59,119
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1838
01:33:59,159 --> 01:34:02,319
Speaker 1: I've actually met some people who are legitimately into the Kabbola,

1839
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:05,960
and I've never heard this argument before. I'm not convinced

1840
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,640
that Hannah is, at least for a long time, part

1841
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,479
of the Kabala movement or noahai jew I was really

1842
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:17,359
sure in earlier cause Hannah was a generic theist, at

1843
01:34:17,359 --> 01:34:19,520
one point a deist, and at one point even made

1844
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:22,159
arguments for Christianity. I maybe I'm misremembering.

1845
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:26,600
Speaker 2: Her critical thinking skills are definitely in question, so and

1846
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:29,760
her curiosity is also in question. Right, she's not asking

1847
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:31,680
basic questions? So right?

1848
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:36,720
Speaker 1: But you know word salad, right, Daisy, thank you for

1849
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:39,640
our ten dollars super jet, big w Daisy. Daisy says,

1850
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:43,039
justin massively helped me deconstruct for my belief in ghosts.

1851
01:34:43,399 --> 01:34:46,960
It was false memories and priming. That's why these shows

1852
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:51,359
are important. False beliefs influence what we go through in reality.

1853
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:54,399
So true daisy, because when we when we when we

1854
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:58,680
experience the world, we filter them through our belief systems. Right,

1855
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,760
we are automatically are category rising things that are either

1856
01:35:02,199 --> 01:35:06,039
plausible or implausible based on past experience. Right, But if

1857
01:35:06,039 --> 01:35:10,039
we have in our head past experiences that are false,

1858
01:35:10,399 --> 01:35:14,039
like belief and ghosts, belief and deities and things like that,

1859
01:35:14,199 --> 01:35:17,199
when we see stuff moving forward, we're likely to categorize

1860
01:35:17,239 --> 01:35:19,840
stuff moving forward in those same categories when they don't

1861
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,520
really exist. Once we get rid of those categories, it's

1862
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,760
funny how quickly our mind looks at that stuff and says, Oh,

1863
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,000
that's just the fucking the wind's blowing the tree and

1864
01:35:28,039 --> 01:35:30,960
it's hitting my house. No, there's no ghosts out there,

1865
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:31,560
you know what I mean.

1866
01:35:32,279 --> 01:35:35,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're pattern recognition machines, and once you establish a pattern,

1867
01:35:35,359 --> 01:35:38,359
will recognize that pattern to be you know, any pattern

1868
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:41,239
that fits side is, will categorize it. And so once

1869
01:35:41,279 --> 01:35:43,600
you get rid of the patterns, and it's not always easy.

1870
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:46,399
Speaker 1: To get rid of the patterns, so right, absolutely, Well, Jim,

1871
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:48,600
I had a blast today. Thank you so much for

1872
01:35:49,199 --> 01:35:52,880
sharing the screen with me again. And also we need

1873
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:57,279
to say a big thank you to our backup Jimmy.

1874
01:35:57,560 --> 01:35:58,920
So we had three gyms today.

1875
01:36:00,319 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 11: I'm Jimmy jun your Jim's hi dad. So yeah, I

1876
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:07,680
thought it was a great show. Thanks for bringing me up.

1877
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:10,560
I wanted to say a couple of things. Mary Gate

1878
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:14,840
on maintaining relationships with family. So just remember, and this

1879
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:17,960
is a hard reality that many people, I don't think understand.

1880
01:36:18,159 --> 01:36:21,720
We're born into family. We have no choice who our

1881
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:25,800
family is. Sometimes you just got to draw a line

1882
01:36:26,039 --> 01:36:29,119
and when they cross that line, say goodbye. That's not easy,

1883
01:36:29,279 --> 01:36:31,399
but it's always an option. A lot of people don't

1884
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:32,039
recognize that.

1885
01:36:32,079 --> 01:36:33,119
Speaker 2: And then you know that.

1886
01:36:33,000 --> 01:36:35,840
Speaker 11: Brings me up to call her too religious people, And

1887
01:36:36,199 --> 01:36:39,520
I don't believe that this person meant this maliciously, but

1888
01:36:39,640 --> 01:36:42,760
just saying religious people cling to belief for no good reason.

1889
01:36:43,279 --> 01:36:45,600
I think what a better way to say that would

1890
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:49,079
be with no evidence or maybe no proof, because sometimes

1891
01:36:49,319 --> 01:36:52,359
they might actually have a good reason. Maybe they need

1892
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:55,760
those family relationships for their own survival. There are a

1893
01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:59,399
lot of people who are in Muslim countries that may believe,

1894
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:02,479
may not believe that. It would not be a good

1895
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:04,680
thing for them to just come clean and say I'm

1896
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,560
an atheist. Uh, that is a good reason to not

1897
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:08,920
voice your opinion openly.

1898
01:37:09,079 --> 01:37:11,560
Speaker 1: Okay, Also, you guys.

1899
01:37:11,319 --> 01:37:14,640
Speaker 11: Were I don't know who's mentioned. I think, Jim, you

1900
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:19,399
mentioned somebody checking out a historian on the Dead Sea scrolls.

1901
01:37:20,239 --> 01:37:22,239
Speaker 2: I just want to I want to throw out doctor.

1902
01:37:23,159 --> 01:37:24,640
Who is that again? I'm sorry? Doctor?

1903
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:28,000
Speaker 11: Okay, well, I want to throw out somebody who I

1904
01:37:28,079 --> 01:37:31,119
like reading up on and listening to. That's doctor Jody Magnus,

1905
01:37:31,119 --> 01:37:33,840
an ancient history scholar and archaeologist. If anybody wants to

1906
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:34,920
check her out, go.

1907
01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 2: Ahead, Hannah.

1908
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,079
Speaker 11: Look, I couldn't have spoken intelligently to physics or the kabala,

1909
01:37:40,199 --> 01:37:42,399
but calling the show and telling the hosts that if

1910
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:45,039
they wanted to know an answer they should email experts,

1911
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:47,560
I could have. I could have challenged you on that one,

1912
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:49,880
for sure. I don't know why you would call and

1913
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:54,680
say that. And then oh, Gretchen, Gretchen, that super chat

1914
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,840
that you just dropped, Oh that made me cringe. Good job, guys,

1915
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:00,720
thank you so much for having me up and have

1916
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:01,479
a wonderful night.

1917
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:04,039
Speaker 1: Jim, we really love and appreciate you. I'm sure we'll

1918
01:38:04,079 --> 01:38:07,399
see it again very soon. And with that, friends, that

1919
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:09,680
is a show for today. Thank you so much for

1920
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:12,399
being here. Remember, if you're not already following the channel,

1921
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:15,439
follow the channel. There's lots of other shows besides this

1922
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:19,560
that you can catch. And also, let's see four thirty

1923
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:23,199
Central time next week, same place if you're in the

1924
01:38:23,239 --> 01:38:24,880
Easter time zone five point thirty.

1925
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:28,800
Speaker 6: Glad way.

1926
01:38:30,239 --> 01:38:37,640
Speaker 1: To start opening ya, stop listening the bullshit every one

1927
01:38:38,039 --> 01:38:42,159
around you buy it, setting up, y'all.

1928
01:38:42,239 --> 01:38:44,359
Speaker 2: Be welcome.

1929
01:38:46,279 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 4: Ell David of.

1930
01:38:51,359 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: Y'all watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central.

1931
01:39:14,039 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 10: Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H

1932
01:39:17,159 --> 01:39:19,479
and call into the show at five one two nine

1933
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,079
nine one nine two four two, or connect to the

1934
01:39:22,119 --> 01:39:25,199
show online at tiny dot c c slash call th

1935
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:25,600
H