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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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<v Speaker 1>his wing.

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<v Speaker 2>Dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna cause the

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<v Speaker 2>tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, nobody seen nobody.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't need to know many story and.

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<v Speaker 2>You got directed like that. That's way man. Don't blackly

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<v Speaker 2>dang on the panel. Mann.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, aren, welcome back to the Jay Burden Show.

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<v Speaker 1>How you doing that?

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm excited to have you back on now. I

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<v Speaker 1>just want to say before we get into it. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>we are recording this on the afternoon where I think

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<v Speaker 1>everyone learned exactly what Christy Nome's husband gets up to

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<v Speaker 1>in his free time. That's really funny. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if there's a whole lot of commentary deep political philosophy

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<v Speaker 1>to it, but it is amusing. It's an info hazard.

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<v Speaker 1>Search at your own risk, but it is kind of funny.

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<v Speaker 1>In all seriousness. Arn, we are here to talk about libertarians.

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<v Speaker 1>As I said before we went live, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>many libertarians have been taking a victory lap after the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Iran. Oh, we told you so. You should

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<v Speaker 1>never have tried to get involved in politics. You should

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<v Speaker 1>never have casted a vote, cast a vote, because this

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<v Speaker 1>is what happens, right, you should simply be like and

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<v Speaker 1>then the kind of you know, vague prescriptions of whichever

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<v Speaker 1>chapter of libertarian you're speaking to come up so or

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<v Speaker 1>before we launch into it. I'm just curious. Did you

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<v Speaker 1>go through the sort of infamous libertarian stage, and I

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<v Speaker 1>guess if you could, what has been your should we say,

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<v Speaker 1>relationship to that school of thought?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I never went through the I need to read

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a bunch of meases and hayek and know,

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<v Speaker 2>swear off the state and cap phase of politics. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of conservatives, especially in you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>the two thousands, I was sold this idea that perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>the future of conservatism was somewhat libertarian. That obviously we

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<v Speaker 2>had lost on the issues like gay marriage and abortion

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<v Speaker 2>and other you know, kind of the culture war as

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<v Speaker 2>it would eventually be called, and so what we really

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<v Speaker 2>needed to do was focus on economics and free trade

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<v Speaker 2>and these things, and ultimately that's what would make the

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<v Speaker 2>right work. We had guys like Neil Bort's and Herman

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<v Speaker 2>Kin who were libertarian adjacent and would talk about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>getting rid of the income tax and these kind of things.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was the winning agenda for the right. I

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<v Speaker 2>bought into some of that for a while. It quickly

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<v Speaker 2>became clear to me that wasn't the case. Now every

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<v Speaker 2>time I say this, a bunch of libertarians run around

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<v Speaker 2>screaming their heads off. Oh, that's not libertarian, that's not

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<v Speaker 2>real libertarian. The GOP never a libertarian. There's no trend

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<v Speaker 2>towards libertarian in the GOP. But like obviously, this was

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<v Speaker 2>relatively a large switch from the religious right, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>understanding that we had and perhaps the eighties or earlier nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think it is fair to say that,

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<v Speaker 2>however imperfect and in not illogically pure, the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>drift to libertarianism was in the Republican Party. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a real phenomenon. It did really exist. We were told this,

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<v Speaker 2>if we're not adopting libertarianism as such, at least our

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<v Speaker 2>messaging on social issues should be more libertarian. And that

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<v Speaker 2>was what was gonna, you know, take us into the future.

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<v Speaker 2>As long as your gay neighbors can have gun rights

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, ultimately push for free trade, that's what

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<v Speaker 2>was going to make right wing politics work. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen pretty much the collapse of that understanding, I

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<v Speaker 2>think we've seen a resurgence in the idea that perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>right wing governments can be interested in the good of

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<v Speaker 2>their people, and that the culture war isn't it actually

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<v Speaker 2>a winning issue as opposed to a losing issue. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure many libertarians will, you know, kick back at

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that this is the structure of kind of

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<v Speaker 2>where the party was going, But it's very clear that

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<v Speaker 2>it is swerved back the other way. In some places,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to to I think you know, our profit,

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<v Speaker 2>in other places, to our detriment. I think you might

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<v Speaker 2>be muted on that one.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a professional podcast, ladies and gentlemen, But I

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<v Speaker 1>think I have a very similar sort of relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>the philosophy because at a certain time where it seemed

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<v Speaker 1>as if the right in America had well and truly

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<v Speaker 1>been routed during the Obama Reich, there was sort of

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<v Speaker 1>this question of, well, what do we do now? And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that for a brief period of time, if

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<v Speaker 1>you were a right winger constitutionally right, that's what you

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<v Speaker 1>felt deep in your bones, The relatively safe place you

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<v Speaker 1>could stand was well, I'm a libertarian. I believe in

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<v Speaker 1>freedom of choice, and so I believe in the freedom

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<v Speaker 1>for you to you know, get gay, married, or to

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<v Speaker 1>have an abortion, and so we don't touch those sort

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<v Speaker 1>of subjects that are quite hot. But also I, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>get to keep gun rights. I don't want to live

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<v Speaker 1>around certain types of people, whether stated or unstated. And

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<v Speaker 1>so for a while it was sort of a spot

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<v Speaker 1>on the slippery slope where you could hang out right,

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<v Speaker 1>a way to talk about politics without you know, being

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<v Speaker 1>subjected to a rant about you know, racist rednecks, right,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a third position. But the problem is, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think many of us realized, and that's why there

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<v Speaker 1>are so many post libertarians or you know, people who

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<v Speaker 1>pass through that is that you realize very quickly that's

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<v Speaker 1>a losing prospect. You don't win there. You are simply

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<v Speaker 1>ushered to one side at best. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>part of the reason why so many people left it.

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<v Speaker 1>Right we saw during COVID very dramatically, well, that doesn't work, right,

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<v Speaker 1>The state will get you. And so at the most

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<v Speaker 1>basic level, I'm going to title this something you know, clickbaity,

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<v Speaker 1>like the five questions libertarians can't answer, because I do

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<v Speaker 1>have five general objections that I have seen no convincing

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<v Speaker 1>answer to And look, there are good libertarians, you know, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>you know Tom Woods and Scott Horton. I'm not talking

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<v Speaker 1>about them, but I think the most fundamental right if

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<v Speaker 1>we assume that libertarianism is this philosophy or tendency that

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<v Speaker 1>puts individual choice right, some form of self determinism at

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<v Speaker 1>the center. Right, the best society is the one where

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<v Speaker 1>you were constrained by the least things, you were the

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<v Speaker 1>most free. Well, an important question is, well, what is

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<v Speaker 1>freedom right? Is this a universal right, a sort of

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<v Speaker 1>right granted to you by God. You will hear that

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<v Speaker 1>idea even from some self described conservatives. Or is it

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<v Speaker 1>specific and cultural? Is it the product of a tradition?

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<v Speaker 1>Because one, when we talk about freedom, we're basically talking

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<v Speaker 1>about a Western conception.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, other peoples at times have advocated for their self determination,

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<v Speaker 1>liberation from a ruler, but it's sort of a different thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And even in the Western tradition, there are many different

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<v Speaker 1>versions of freedom. So, for instance, right when the gulls

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<v Speaker 1>are rebelling against Caesar for liberty, what do they mean?

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<v Speaker 1>Are they big fans of, you know, gay marriage? Are

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<v Speaker 1>they big fans of, you know, all of the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of you know, things that we associate with libertarian conventions.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean now that I say that running around naked

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<v Speaker 1>with funny hats is pretty close to it. But in

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<v Speaker 1>all seriousness, right, clearly this is a different conception of

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<v Speaker 1>what freedom is. This is a through line in Western thought.

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<v Speaker 1>But we've seen many different permutations of even the society

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<v Speaker 1>we see so often in constitutional conservative and libertarian means

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<v Speaker 1>that of the American founding? Is that a libertarian society?

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<v Speaker 1>On one level? Well, I mean, yes, you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have a lot of taxes, but a sodomy was illegal,

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<v Speaker 1>there were blasphemy laws. It's sort of ridiculous on its face.

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<v Speaker 1>So i'll throw it to you, arin, Right, what do

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<v Speaker 1>we make of that question of well, what is freedom?

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<v Speaker 1>And how is it sort of twisted in the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of you know, Twitter dot com version of what libertarians think?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one of the problems with libertarianism is that it

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<v Speaker 2>is itself a universalist ideology, and as with all universal

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<v Speaker 2>universalist ideologies, it tends towards utopianism. So while libertarianism pretends

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<v Speaker 2>to take on this hard realistic edge of just well,

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<v Speaker 2>this is how market forces work, and this is just

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<v Speaker 2>the science, and this is the way it is. Apology

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<v Speaker 2>is just terrible. The libertarian anthropology is deeply flawed in

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<v Speaker 2>this understanding that freedom is simply an absence of official

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<v Speaker 2>government control by something called the state TM, and if

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<v Speaker 2>we just get rid of the state TM, then people

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<v Speaker 2>will live in some kind of spontaneous order and everything

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<v Speaker 2>will be good. And this is what we're looking for

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<v Speaker 2>from life. Now. It's very interesting because there's actually a

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<v Speaker 2>perfect answer to this, and it sits inside the libertarian tradition.

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<v Speaker 2>Bertrand Jujuvenile is a guy I reference all the time

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<v Speaker 2>because he's one of the most important and underappreciated figures

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<v Speaker 2>in political theory. And he wrote a book on power

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<v Speaker 2>and another one on sovereignty, which are just absolutely critical.

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<v Speaker 2>They're actually even put out by Freedom Press, a libertarian

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<v Speaker 2>you know, imprint, and he's often cited inside the libertarian tradition,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least the class of liberal tradition. He's literally

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<v Speaker 2>the basis for Hans Hermann Hopp's Democracy The God That Failed.

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<v Speaker 2>Like if you like Hoop, if you've thought his arguments

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<v Speaker 2>against democracy were persuasive, congratulations they were stolen directly from

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<v Speaker 2>Bertrand di Juvenal and I say this with like the

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<v Speaker 2>greatest admiration for hop because like only the great seal

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<v Speaker 2>from bertrand di juvenal, like this is not me slandering him.

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<v Speaker 2>I say all that to point out that this guy

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<v Speaker 2>is really well grounded and is somebody that like especially

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<v Speaker 2>Mesa's style, libertarians rely on without recognizing that they owe

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<v Speaker 2>him the intellectual lineage that they do. And inside on Power,

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<v Speaker 2>Dijuvenile makes exactly the point we're making now that radical

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<v Speaker 2>libertarianism and radical communism were always destined to meet in

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<v Speaker 2>the center. They were always destined to create the same outcome.

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<v Speaker 2>And his point is that what we're looking for is

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<v Speaker 2>not just radical freedom. What we're looking for is order liberty,

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<v Speaker 2>and liberty in the classical sense is the freedom to

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<v Speaker 2>pursue the good as your society understands it. It is

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<v Speaker 2>an Aristotilian concept that it is only inside our interactions

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<v Speaker 2>with other political entities that we can grasp our role

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<v Speaker 2>and we can recognize our or we could realize our liberty.

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<v Speaker 2>That is what creates liberty, is having a shared understanding

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<v Speaker 2>of the good and having the ability to pursue it.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, in on Sobiergty di Juvenal goes a step

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<v Speaker 2>further and says that it is not the power of

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<v Speaker 2>the government that makes a man free or not free.

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<v Speaker 2>It is that the government acts in accordance with the

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<v Speaker 2>general understanding of the good. People who are asked to

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<v Speaker 2>only pursue that which they already inherently understand through their

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<v Speaker 2>traditions and their folk ways and their religion as virtuous.

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<v Speaker 2>They are people who are free. That feels now natural

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<v Speaker 2>to them. Even if they can never achieve exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>they set out, they feel those goals to be ones

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<v Speaker 2>that are in alignment with what they already want to pursue,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the government encouraging them or bolstering the pursuit

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<v Speaker 2>of something they already agree with, does not feel oppressive.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels liberate. What really makes people feel oppressed is

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<v Speaker 2>a government or a state that tries to force them

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<v Speaker 2>into doing things they don't agree with, things that they

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<v Speaker 2>do not see as virtuous, things that do not work

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<v Speaker 2>inside their tradition, their understanding of the good. This is

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<v Speaker 2>what tyranny ultimately is. It's not the abuse of government power,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not the exercise of government power. It's the use

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<v Speaker 2>of government power to force peoples into a way of

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<v Speaker 2>being that does not complement them, that does not attain

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<v Speaker 2>that ultimate good that they are aiming for. And so

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<v Speaker 2>when we're talking about liberty, what we need to understand

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<v Speaker 2>is it's not about the government having more or less power.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about the government working for the good of people,

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<v Speaker 2>the collective understanding of where we should be as a people,

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<v Speaker 2>as a nation. If it's doing that, we feel liberated.

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<v Speaker 2>If it doesn't, we feel constrained. That's why even if

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<v Speaker 2>a group of people fights for their liberation from another nation,

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<v Speaker 2>so they can immediately impose a bunch of religious restrictions

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<v Speaker 2>on top of themselves, which is exactly what America did.

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<v Speaker 2>We feel like that's our independence day because we are

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<v Speaker 2>now free not to do math or you know, get

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<v Speaker 2>gay married, but to live in accordance with a religious

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<v Speaker 2>tradition and our understanding as a people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, on that point, I think that this misunderstanding of

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<v Speaker 1>power you also see in my second objection, which is

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<v Speaker 1>how do you bring out how do you bring about

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<v Speaker 1>rather in campus dan right, how do we get to

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<v Speaker 1>a libertarian society? Because the answer is, well, I will

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<v Speaker 1>simply behave as if I were already in such a society.

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<v Speaker 1>That will spread and bring about that reality. This is

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<v Speaker 1>the point that Moldbug makes back when he was still Moldbug.

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<v Speaker 1>Where he goes from that that sort of desired end

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<v Speaker 1>state of spontaneous order, right, a truly liberated society where

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what state as it exists is in line

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<v Speaker 1>with the people. Right, there is no feeling of tyranny

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<v Speaker 1>or disconnect between the state and those rules. And he says,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, well, if that's what you want, speaking, shall

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<v Speaker 1>we say slightly hyperbolically, you should be a fascist, right,

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<v Speaker 1>You should want to crush disorder so that order can exist. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>this comes from his understanding of that duality of order

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<v Speaker 1>and chaos. He believes, and as did many before him,

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<v Speaker 1>this is not D and D right, You cannot be

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<v Speaker 1>chaotic good. Chaotic chaos is synonymous with evil. An order

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<v Speaker 1>that which is necessary, you know, for a functional society

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<v Speaker 1>is a good and what steps you need to take

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<v Speaker 1>towards that are good steps. Now, I think it's important

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<v Speaker 1>to say that this misconception that in order to achieve

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<v Speaker 1>an end you should act as if it already is

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<v Speaker 1>the case. It runs rampant through education and child rearing.

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<v Speaker 1>Right in our last episode, it's never quite stated this way,

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<v Speaker 1>but the idea is, well, I want X y Z

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<v Speaker 1>child to be a functional adult. So if I just

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<v Speaker 1>treat them at age four, how I would one of

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<v Speaker 1>my coworkers, one of my friends, Well, then they will

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<v Speaker 1>become that. Clearly that doesn't work, right, We've all been

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<v Speaker 1>to the supermarket and seen a mother trying to reason

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<v Speaker 1>with her three year old. Doesn't work. Sure, you or

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<v Speaker 1>I might feel very embarrassed that we are causing a

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<v Speaker 1>scene at a local coals. You know that we're screaming

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<v Speaker 1>and crying and throwing things A three year old does not.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to act in a different way so that

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<v Speaker 1>later down the line you can pull back. Right, you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have to have that insane level of top down control.

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<v Speaker 1>And to that point, when we look at libertarian societies,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what are often tauted as you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>successful functioning society full of spontaneous order. Well, how do

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<v Speaker 1>the people act? Right? Do they act like modern libertarians

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<v Speaker 1>from a certain perspective? Maybe right, they don't have a

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<v Speaker 1>policeman over their shoulder. But what got them there?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>Was it this kind of insane you know, porkfest style

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<v Speaker 1>libertine event? No? And I mean you can look at

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the opposite example, right, is O Block the

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<v Speaker 1>most free place in America? Well, sure, arn, if you're

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<v Speaker 1>interested in you know, like you're squeezing off thirty rounds

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<v Speaker 1>from you know, a glock switch out of the back

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<v Speaker 1>of your hell cat. Maybe, But if you're actually interested

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<v Speaker 1>in having a business, you're interested in walking wherever you want,

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<v Speaker 1>a very basic level of freedom. That's not free for you.

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<v Speaker 1>But you look to places like, up until recently, something

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<v Speaker 1>like England, right, kind of the pre Tony Blair version. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know Victorian England, We'll go to that. Well, functionally,

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<v Speaker 1>you have an immense amount of freedom. You can walk

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<v Speaker 1>wherever you want. You know, infamously women walked around London

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<v Speaker 1>late at night without being bothered. Well, how did we

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<v Speaker 1>get there? One of the most punishing criminal justice regimes

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<v Speaker 1>in history, right, hanging people, sending them to Australia. It

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<v Speaker 1>was what many moderns would call fascistic. I go back,

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<v Speaker 1>as we mentioned multiple times to the American founders, right,

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<v Speaker 1>a society much freer than ours. But again, if you

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<v Speaker 1>stole a horse, they hanged you. You could not be gay.

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<v Speaker 1>Gay marriage was I mean, it would be comical to

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<v Speaker 1>explain it. You cannot create a libertarian society by acting

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<v Speaker 1>as a libertarian. And so the question is, okay, even

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<v Speaker 1>if you are, you know you have that end goal,

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<v Speaker 1>you have that vision of society. Well it's not how

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<v Speaker 1>you should act now, you should be much like Crothbard

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<v Speaker 1>was closer to the end of his life, right encouraging

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<v Speaker 1>the cops to send in the hounds, right to stamp

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<v Speaker 1>out disorder, because disorder is inherently in tropic It will

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<v Speaker 1>make it impossible for rational spontaneous order to exist because

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<v Speaker 1>quite simply, it is not safe to do so. So

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<v Speaker 1>are That's a bit of a monologue for me, but

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<v Speaker 1>I'd be curious to get your thoughts as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, back to what you're saying there with Moldbug. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the problem is that libertarians have the order reversed once again.

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<v Speaker 2>Their anthropology is bad. They think that if people are free,

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<v Speaker 2>then spontaneously they will become virtuous. If libertarians are even

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<v Speaker 2>interested in virtue, which sadly very often they are not,

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<v Speaker 2>they will say, well, if people are free, they will

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<v Speaker 2>act virtuously. They will create this ordered society once they

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<v Speaker 2>are free. But this is the inverse of what actually happens.

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<v Speaker 2>As Moldbug lays out, humanity starts in a state of war.

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<v Speaker 2>Then you move to a state of order. Then you

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<v Speaker 2>move to a state of law, and if you're very,

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<v Speaker 2>very lucky, then you move to a state of liberty.

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<v Speaker 2>And it is only after going through those steps that

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<v Speaker 2>you achieve that final state. And if you do not

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<v Speaker 2>go through this process, you cannot expect that final state

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<v Speaker 2>to emerge. Libertarians say, I don't need the state, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't need the thing that brings order. I don't need

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that ends the war. I just need the

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<v Speaker 2>last part of that, and I will therefore then generate

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<v Speaker 2>out all the benefits. But that is just observably false.

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<v Speaker 2>We see this over and over again that as long

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<v Speaker 2>as you say people are allowed to take certain actions

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<v Speaker 2>that they seemed themselves as being free to take, they

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<v Speaker 2>actually reduced the amount of order, and therefore the liberty

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<v Speaker 2>inside it is virtue that creates liberty, not liberty that

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<v Speaker 2>creates virtue. And if you don't spend time with the

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<v Speaker 2>population cultivating that virtue, you simply cannot bring about the

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<v Speaker 2>type of society that liberty that libertarians want. So, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>Alexis de Tokville famously observed that the reason that America

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<v Speaker 2>was basically allowed to more or less self govern, as

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<v Speaker 2>we often put it, is that actually it didn't self

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<v Speaker 2>govern at all. That it was all of these smaller

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<v Speaker 2>civic organizations, the church, the guild, the you know, the community,

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<v Speaker 2>you know organization, these things came together and created a

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<v Speaker 2>straight from which American society could emerge. And because people

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<v Speaker 2>had a loyalty to their union, or to their church,

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<v Speaker 2>or to their community, or to their club, or to

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<v Speaker 2>their fire brigade or all these other voluntary associations, the government,

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<v Speaker 2>the official state TM didn't have to take very many actions.

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<v Speaker 2>And again this is what bertrand Juvenile echoes in on power,

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<v Speaker 2>that is, these alternative spheres of sovereignty that limit the government.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, he takes at another level and says, it

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<v Speaker 2>is not the constitution and it's checks and balances that

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately limits the government. It is the fact that those

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<v Speaker 2>checks and balances of the Constitution are meant to represent

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<v Speaker 2>different social forces that actually brings limitation on the government itself.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if you don't have a virtual society and

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<v Speaker 2>which people enter into these voluntary organizations and see themselves

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<v Speaker 2>as beholden to them and see power to them. Then

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<v Speaker 2>there is no social force to push back against the

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<v Speaker 2>central power of the state. And we can see that

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<v Speaker 2>as those intermediate forces, the family, the church, the community,

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<v Speaker 2>have eroded, we've required more and more government to step

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<v Speaker 2>in and take action. But it's not the loss of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's not the removal of government that creates that.

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<v Speaker 2>Freedom is the imposition of order from virtuous people spontaneously.

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<v Speaker 2>But you can't have that until you have virtuous people.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't get those just because you were liberated in

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<v Speaker 2>some way. If you do not enhance the character of

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<v Speaker 2>the people, you simply cannot live in the way that

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<v Speaker 2>libertarians would like. And so that's why, for instance, neo

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<v Speaker 2>reactionary theory has always been authoritarian on the outside, libertarian

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<v Speaker 2>on the inside. This was the post libertarian realization that

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<v Speaker 2>a libertarian order, while desirable, can only come through authoritarian means.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's kind of the realization that occurred after they

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<v Speaker 2>really looked at all the libertarian theory. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful worldview that only exists when a certain type of

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<v Speaker 2>environment is produced, and the only way to produce that

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<v Speaker 2>is through strict amounts of authority, often handed down by

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<v Speaker 2>the state.

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<v Speaker 1>So arin if anyone in the audience is perhaps interested

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<v Speaker 1>in reading a book about the relationship between the state

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<v Speaker 1>a total state, one might even say any sort of

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<v Speaker 1>intermediate institutions. How you know it's in the state's interest

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<v Speaker 1>to push out, yep, such organizations. Where could they find one?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I just happened to have written one, which you

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<v Speaker 2>know you can find. It's coming out soon and it's

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<v Speaker 2>secondition paperback with an extra chapter if you want to

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<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. But the Total State or mctyre, it's an

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<v Speaker 2>Amazon bestseller in a couple categories, so you know, make

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<v Speaker 2>sure to pick that up if you want to hear

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<v Speaker 2>a little more.

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<v Speaker 1>That was entirely planned. By the way, this is the

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<v Speaker 1>whole reason we're doing this episode is just to show

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<v Speaker 1>the But in all seriousness, this leads into let's just say,

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<v Speaker 1>this is like a secret sixth point that I should

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<v Speaker 1>have mentioned in the notes and then didn't, which is

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<v Speaker 1>that libertine behavior right, living as a libertarian, having a

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<v Speaker 1>approximately libertarian society produces people who are not suited for liberty,

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<v Speaker 1>and that leads us to another large objection here, which

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<v Speaker 1>is libertarians presupposed, at least from what I've seen that

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<v Speaker 1>at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of need is liberty, right,

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<v Speaker 1>that that is what all men are striving for, what

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<v Speaker 1>all people want. And maybe that was true. We can

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<v Speaker 1>put a pin in that at a previous point in time.

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<v Speaker 1>Very clearly that is not true today. As the total

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<v Speaker 1>state has grown, as it has taken more and more institutions,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it is marriage, the rearing of children, education, out

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<v Speaker 1>of informal social structure and into the realm of the

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<v Speaker 1>political well, we very clearly see people want that. They

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<v Speaker 1>want security, They do not necessarily want maximum liberty. You

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<v Speaker 1>may remember several years ago there was a pandemic, and

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<v Speaker 1>well what happened. Did the masses rise up? Did people say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I will not be confined to my home? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>clearly not. The majority of people went along with it.

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<v Speaker 1>And sure there were relocations within the US to escape

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<v Speaker 1>the excesses of the COVID regime. As someone in Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>you're note out aware of that. But nonetheless we understand

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<v Speaker 1>and we're seeing it on almost a daily basis. The

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<v Speaker 1>average American does not desire liberty, at least in the

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<v Speaker 1>sense often meant by libertarians. And so if you have

417
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:58.039
<v Speaker 1>a universalist ideology, right, an idea for everyone all at once,

418
00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:02.279
<v Speaker 1>and not even and everyone, but just almost everyone disagrees

419
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 1>with it. Well, what is to be done there?

420
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Right?

421
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:10.720
<v Speaker 1>Your universalist ideology has failed to attract the universal man.

422
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:16.480
<v Speaker 1>So I'm curious, arn, do you see that most Americans,

423
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:23.079
<v Speaker 1>most people period desire this sort of rootless conception of liberty.

424
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:29.799
<v Speaker 1>If not, what do people seemingly ask for in politics?

425
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? There is again, once again, like just this complete

426
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:38.359
<v Speaker 2>failure of libertarian anthropology. The idea that all human beings

427
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.640
<v Speaker 2>are just born with this innate desire for liberty has

428
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.799
<v Speaker 2>been proven incorrect over and over. It. In fact, it's

429
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.680
<v Speaker 2>something we generally scoff at now at this point, right, Oh,

430
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Jefferson hiding in the caves of Afghanistan. Right, But

431
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.240
<v Speaker 2>this is still something that while libertarians will laugh at

432
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:57.039
<v Speaker 2>this implication and foreign policy will still basically pick up

433
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:00.400
<v Speaker 2>this assumption when it comes to human organization. Well, of

434
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.200
<v Speaker 2>course we can't force you know, liberal democracy on the Afghanis,

435
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.759
<v Speaker 2>But of course every human being actually yearns to be

436
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:11.799
<v Speaker 2>free and looks for libertarian ideology and existence. As you

437
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.720
<v Speaker 2>point out, this is just absolutely not true, and you

438
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.799
<v Speaker 2>can evidence is if only because the ideology of communism,

439
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 2>well equally ridiculous and universal, has always had more adherents

440
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:28.119
<v Speaker 2>than the ideology of libertarianism. If libertarianism was so much

441
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.720
<v Speaker 2>truer to human nature, you think it would just naturally

442
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 2>went out in that old marketplace of ideas, and yet

443
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:35.759
<v Speaker 2>it never does. In fact, reliably, if we look at

444
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:39.160
<v Speaker 2>the libertarian quadrant of the political compass, we find it

445
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:43.079
<v Speaker 2>is the place with zero voters, It has almost no support,

446
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and pretty much every bit of polling and data finds

447
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>that libertarians are the least likely to actually produce any

448
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of popular movement. And that's for a very simple reason.

449
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Most people can't live this way. And you know a

450
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.839
<v Speaker 2>lot of people have made the joke that classical liberalism,

451
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and therefore libertarians, which is its spiritual descendant, it was

452
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.799
<v Speaker 2>made for one hundred and thirty iq Anglos. It works

453
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:08.359
<v Speaker 2>for a society of one hundred and thirty iq Anglos.

454
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.319
<v Speaker 2>To the point where my buddy Carl Benjamin has put

455
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it this way, classical liberalism is Sharia law for the English,

456
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.640
<v Speaker 2>which I think is a pretty good formulation for how

457
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.559
<v Speaker 2>to understand this. So we have in libertarianism is not

458
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:26.039
<v Speaker 2>a universal understanding of you know, human behavior, but a

459
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.000
<v Speaker 2>very specific understanding of how a very particular set of

460
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 2>people and a specific culture can conduct itself. And this

461
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.319
<v Speaker 2>is the problem is so much of libertarianism is based

462
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:37.960
<v Speaker 2>on this idea that because you have understood economics at

463
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:40.759
<v Speaker 2>some level, well, I have Kinsian economics, and this is

464
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.200
<v Speaker 2>the magic bullet. It explains the world. It's just Marxism,

465
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:48.680
<v Speaker 2>it's just inverted Marxism. It's just materialism for you know,

466
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the guy who wants to make money and do drugs.

467
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:54.759
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't. It has this anthropology that says, well, people

468
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.559
<v Speaker 2>are driven by these material causes, and as long as

469
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.720
<v Speaker 2>you arrange the material underlying material cause this is correctly,

470
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.599
<v Speaker 2>this will produce the society that you're looking for. I've

471
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>studied the economics, and that is the universal science that

472
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>will allow me to understand all human beings. What we

473
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.000
<v Speaker 2>see is that's absolutely not the case. And if you

474
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>don't tailor your understanding of your social organization to the

475
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.319
<v Speaker 2>people it's actually organizing, you lose. Which is why again

476
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:22.240
<v Speaker 2>people like Bertrand to Juvenil to the extent they are

477
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.960
<v Speaker 2>in any way libertarian or inside the libertarian tradition are correct,

478
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:28.720
<v Speaker 2>because they're the ones who are saying no, you have

479
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.440
<v Speaker 2>to actually look at the people you're governing. It matters

480
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:33.720
<v Speaker 2>what their folk ways are. It matters if you want

481
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to create liberty in the society, you must align it

482
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.119
<v Speaker 2>with the way of life of the people who are

483
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:42.119
<v Speaker 2>actually going to be subject to the rule of the state.

484
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.440
<v Speaker 2>You can't just go around saying, well, because I think

485
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.559
<v Speaker 2>in this abstract sense that everyone should be able to

486
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.599
<v Speaker 2>spontaneously order their life, I'm just going to impose that

487
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.759
<v Speaker 2>on the world because what we see reliably, and this

488
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:58.279
<v Speaker 2>is always the problem libertarianism is that while they advocate

489
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Speaker 2>for a total removal of state and vault, the only

490
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 2>places where they ever make gains are the leftist ones.

491
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Right Like, they help push open the door for gay marriage,

492
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 2>they help push open the door for drug legalization, but

493
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.359
<v Speaker 2>they never push open the door for anything that's actually

494
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:18.039
<v Speaker 2>going to conserve society. They never happen to push away

495
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.319
<v Speaker 2>the welfare state. Oh, they never happened to push away

496
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:24.079
<v Speaker 2>public education. They never win any of these battles. The

497
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.680
<v Speaker 2>battles they win are almost exclusively ones that help degenerate

498
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>society because they're pushing an open door in those situations.

499
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>And so this is why we never end up creating

500
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.279
<v Speaker 2>the society they're looking for, because they never bother to

501
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:38.000
<v Speaker 2>look at the people they're actually trying to create the

502
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.079
<v Speaker 2>society for. They start with the ideology and then they

503
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:43.039
<v Speaker 2>just try to universally apply it to whatever people they

504
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>happen to have any level of influencer control over.

505
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad you brought that up. The shared materialism

506
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:55.559
<v Speaker 1>between Marxism socialism, you know, the kind of softer version

507
00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:00.839
<v Speaker 1>in libertarianism. From a certain perspective, they have the same peleology,

508
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.759
<v Speaker 1>the same sunum bonum, right, the kind of ultimate goal

509
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:08.720
<v Speaker 1>which is material abundance. Right. The difference between you know,

510
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:13.279
<v Speaker 1>gay space communism and then you know in Campistan and

511
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:17.240
<v Speaker 1>the Stars, it's really not that different. And when presented

512
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.680
<v Speaker 1>in that marketplace of ideas, you know, which is going

513
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.599
<v Speaker 1>to win out the the story of socialism, which we

514
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.440
<v Speaker 1>understand is not true, but the idea of you know,

515
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:30.799
<v Speaker 1>you will have these things taken care for you. You know

516
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:32.559
<v Speaker 1>you will not have to pay for this, you will

517
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:35.400
<v Speaker 1>not have to pay for that. And sure, hypothetically you

518
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.559
<v Speaker 1>might not be able to make seven figures, but most

519
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>people can't do that. Most people don't want that. The

520
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.359
<v Speaker 1>social safety net sounds great, you know, that is a

521
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 1>certain degree of freedom, right, freedom from worry. Now, let's

522
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:55.319
<v Speaker 1>look at the kind of story presented, you know, of

523
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:58.279
<v Speaker 1>the of the ancams. It's this idea that you know,

524
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:01.759
<v Speaker 1>I will be able to become guy earning seven figures

525
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.079
<v Speaker 1>by finding the best workers, you know, the best eight

526
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:10.240
<v Speaker 1>year olds to you know, man my meth plantation. It's like, well, okay, sure,

527
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 1>but again, remember you were playing for people who are

528
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:18.599
<v Speaker 1>or let's be honest, more often view themselves as exceptional

529
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:24.440
<v Speaker 1>and desire that same material abundance, but only for that

530
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 1>right they think that they will and it is you know,

531
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 1>materialism plus a certain amount of social Darwinism is what

532
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 1>you often see as well, the idea that simply we

533
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.799
<v Speaker 1>will create a society where it will all sort itself

534
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 1>out right, the best will rise to the top. You know,

535
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:43.759
<v Speaker 1>they will be you know, drug lords and crypto scammers,

536
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:46.440
<v Speaker 1>and they will live in you know, this kind of

537
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:52.039
<v Speaker 1>again very truncated version of gay space communism, right, not

538
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.039
<v Speaker 1>particularly like they don't say to communism, but effectively unlimited abundance,

539
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:02.759
<v Speaker 1>right with full freedom of personal interaction, and one we

540
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:05.680
<v Speaker 1>have to ask is that a good end goal for society?

541
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.519
<v Speaker 1>That is a separate question. You and I would say no.

542
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:13.559
<v Speaker 1>But also we have to address the factor that it

543
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:18.640
<v Speaker 1>is much much easier to convince people of the original

544
00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:22.519
<v Speaker 1>formula of materialism than it is. This what we would

545
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:27.160
<v Speaker 1>say kind of like Anglo innovation, right, And so to

546
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of carry through another part of this, when we're

547
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:37.440
<v Speaker 1>talking about the libertarian's horrible anthropology, and this is exactly

548
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.200
<v Speaker 1>why I wanted you on, right, is a very core point,

549
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.920
<v Speaker 1>which is the man who wants to rule always beats

550
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.960
<v Speaker 1>the guy who wants to be left alone. And when

551
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:50.720
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about power, this conception of power, that power

552
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.079
<v Speaker 1>must be avoided, that you must take the ring up

553
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:56.559
<v Speaker 1>the ring being power of course, up Mount Doom and

554
00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:00.720
<v Speaker 1>destroy it so that you can be left alone, is

555
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 1>shot through libertarian and conservative thought, right, This idea of

556
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>I just want to be left alone. The problem is,

557
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:11.840
<v Speaker 1>of course, there are people who don't want to leave

558
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.480
<v Speaker 1>you alone, and they want that way harder. And you

559
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.599
<v Speaker 1>see this anytime there's you know, a riot in the offing,

560
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 1>anytime there's one of these disruptive, irritating events, you get

561
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:27.159
<v Speaker 1>the argument of try that in a small town, right

562
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.400
<v Speaker 1>that you know, someone will show up and put a

563
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:34.880
<v Speaker 1>stop to it. And the problem is they don't. It

564
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.800
<v Speaker 1>is irrational for any one person without the States backing

565
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.000
<v Speaker 1>to do that. You know, even in the case of

566
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.559
<v Speaker 1>Kyle Rittenhouse, who you know, successfully avoided going to jail

567
00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:47.840
<v Speaker 1>for the rest of his life. One that was a

568
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.639
<v Speaker 1>fairly miraculous situation on multiple levels, but two that was

569
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.599
<v Speaker 1>a near run thing. He almost got sent to, you know,

570
00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.760
<v Speaker 1>stabbed with the screwdriver sorts of prisons, as we've seen

571
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:03.400
<v Speaker 1>with other enemies of that part of society that does

572
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.480
<v Speaker 1>want to rule your life, that does want to step

573
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.480
<v Speaker 1>on you. And so this conception that I will simply

574
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:14.119
<v Speaker 1>retreat certainly is very Anglo, right. You see that in

575
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.800
<v Speaker 1>lands Cracker Factory. It is sort of our tradition. But

576
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:22.960
<v Speaker 1>fundamentally it doesn't work. It doesn't let you have that

577
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.079
<v Speaker 1>society effectively.

578
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:26.199
<v Speaker 2>In order to.

579
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Establish that sort of unity between the ruler and the

580
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.519
<v Speaker 1>rule that creates liberty, well, you got to have a

581
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:40.000
<v Speaker 1>guy in power. Otherwise, as the you know, as the

582
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.280
<v Speaker 1>the sort of mocking you know, anti fook graffiti says

583
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.159
<v Speaker 1>they will step on you, right, with a picture of

584
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.280
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the jack boot on the on the snake.

585
00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:50.960
<v Speaker 1>And I don't want to be rude about this, but

586
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.719
<v Speaker 1>history is on my side. We've seen this over and

587
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:58.480
<v Speaker 1>over and over again, and this tactical retreat does not

588
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.840
<v Speaker 1>produce any sort of long term results. The best you

589
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:07.320
<v Speaker 1>can hope for is approximate win. Right. I live in Massachusetts.

590
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:09.920
<v Speaker 1>I prefer to live in Idaho, fair enough, and you

591
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.199
<v Speaker 1>can do that. But if that's all you're doing, that's

592
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.559
<v Speaker 1>the only game you're playing of I just want to

593
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.760
<v Speaker 1>be left alone, you know. I only want power so

594
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.719
<v Speaker 1>that I can destroy power. At best, let's a loser mentality.

595
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:29.320
<v Speaker 1>And the whole time that that cope has been in vogue,

596
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.519
<v Speaker 1>let's just say what last twenty thirty forty years? Pick

597
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:37.199
<v Speaker 1>your number. The question is, well, has the country gotten

598
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.760
<v Speaker 1>more or less free? And by all but a few metrics,

599
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:45.320
<v Speaker 1>the country has gotten dramatically less free. Ar And I'll

600
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:46.280
<v Speaker 1>let you speak.

601
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:53.079
<v Speaker 2>So as you point out, Nick Land has laid this

602
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.159
<v Speaker 2>idea that kind of the classical liberal and the Anglo

603
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Protestant tradition from which classical liberalism, you know, arose this

604
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:07.880
<v Speaker 2>response repeatedly whenever it's been pressured. Whenever it's come to

605
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.639
<v Speaker 2>blows over whether we should one side should rule the

606
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:16.159
<v Speaker 2>other and impose its will, the answer has been exit, right, flee,

607
00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Flee from England to the United States. When you get

608
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to the United States and things in Massachusetts or New

609
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.559
<v Speaker 2>York become too constrict, a move to the Midwest. When

610
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:29.000
<v Speaker 2>they get too constricting there, head to the you know,

611
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 2>further west, to the wild West. And we just kept

612
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:36.239
<v Speaker 2>escaping to frontier to frontier to frontier in order to

613
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:39.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of avoid this issue. You can see this so

614
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:43.280
<v Speaker 2>much in of course, the American founding, where once the

615
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.599
<v Speaker 2>issue slavery becomes central, you just see you know, different

616
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.440
<v Speaker 2>peoples going west and trying to kind of incorporate more

617
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 2>and more of the states into their ideology, until eventually

618
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.119
<v Speaker 2>there's nowhere left to run and the states have to

619
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:00.360
<v Speaker 2>clash over this issue. Right, one side is going to

620
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.079
<v Speaker 2>dominate the other. One side is going to rule. And

621
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.239
<v Speaker 2>let's be really clear. The North decides to rule, it

622
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:09.239
<v Speaker 2>kills a lot of people, It crushes the governments, It

623
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 2>imprisons the governments that of different states that avoid it.

624
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.440
<v Speaker 2>It throws the constitution in the trash. Lincoln decides that

625
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you don't need habeas corpus er in these other legal

626
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.320
<v Speaker 2>traditions that came from classical liberalism, because ultimately, the question

627
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.639
<v Speaker 2>is who's going to rule and who's going to dominate,

628
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and the answer is the North. And as much as

629
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, any good Southerner like you or me understands

630
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:36.960
<v Speaker 2>the War of Northern Aggression as a violation of constitutional principles,

631
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:39.239
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter. We're still under the rule of the

632
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.519
<v Speaker 2>Union at this point, right there is no conversation anymore

633
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.079
<v Speaker 2>about how we really have these rights in the Tenth Amendment.

634
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:49.000
<v Speaker 2>No one cares. The Tenth Amendment is sitting in the trash.

635
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.559
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't matter. And things like COVID and others just

636
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:55.719
<v Speaker 2>continue to reinforce this point, and so it quickly becomes clear.

637
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:58.400
<v Speaker 2>And this is one of my most hated tweets of

638
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.840
<v Speaker 2>all time. I've gotten this response to you know, I

639
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:05.320
<v Speaker 2>hate that. I think you're right about this, about this

640
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:08.000
<v Speaker 2>tweet more than anything else I've ever said, which is

641
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:10.800
<v Speaker 2>the side that wants to win always beats the side

642
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.679
<v Speaker 2>that wants to be left alone. Because as painful as

643
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.840
<v Speaker 2>it is in the American mind to admit that, it's

644
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:23.039
<v Speaker 2>so obviously true that it's simply undeniable. And once you

645
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:28.079
<v Speaker 2>recognize that truth, then you recognize that while at some

646
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.119
<v Speaker 2>point the idea that investing the government and let with

647
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:34.880
<v Speaker 2>less power was a noble understanding, it was something that

648
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>was foundational to our way of being as Americans over time. Instead,

649
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.480
<v Speaker 2>what that schibbalith has become is a way to control

650
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:47.360
<v Speaker 2>conservative America. Oh well, you're the side that thinks we

651
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.719
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't have government power, right, Well, then it would be

652
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.639
<v Speaker 2>a violation of your own principles to take government power

653
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:55.639
<v Speaker 2>or to use government power. If you happen to win

654
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.519
<v Speaker 2>an election, at best, your job is to sit there

655
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:01.679
<v Speaker 2>and sit in place, or maybe you know, diffuse some

656
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:04.599
<v Speaker 2>level of government power for a little while. And then

657
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.760
<v Speaker 2>the other guys come into power and they do the

658
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:08.840
<v Speaker 2>thing that's in accordance with their principles, which is to

659
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 2>rule you with an iron fist. And so if one

660
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.639
<v Speaker 2>side says power is good and I can do whatever

661
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I want with it, and I'm righteous for doing so,

662
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:18.599
<v Speaker 2>and one side says power is bad and if I

663
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:20.800
<v Speaker 2>attain it, then I'm a bad person. And if I attain

664
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 2>it and use it, I'm basically hitler. Well, which side

665
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.440
<v Speaker 2>is going to win in a contest of power. The

666
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.559
<v Speaker 2>answer is glaringly obvious. And so what we're going through

667
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:34.360
<v Speaker 2>now is really just the painful forcing every single idiot

668
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.039
<v Speaker 2>who has bought into this to ultimately admit that this

669
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>is true, right, And this is the difficulty. This is

670
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>why I'm so hard on libertarians. You know a lot

671
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.719
<v Speaker 2>of people, you know, Oh, you give libertarians so much heat,

672
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:49.000
<v Speaker 2>you must hate them. No, I love libertarians. The problem

673
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.360
<v Speaker 2>is that libertarians are so close to understanding the truth,

674
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:55.199
<v Speaker 2>but they can't get over the last hurdle. They are

675
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.280
<v Speaker 2>not They have not made that post libertarian switch, that

676
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:02.960
<v Speaker 2>NRX switch, of understanding that the very society they want

677
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:08.079
<v Speaker 2>to achieve could only be achieved through the acquisition and

678
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:13.119
<v Speaker 2>exercise of power. It is only through absolute authority that

679
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:15.800
<v Speaker 2>they can create the level of liberty they are attempting

680
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:19.679
<v Speaker 2>to achieve. And that's really the barrier that we have

681
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.480
<v Speaker 2>to understand. If you are not looking to rule, if

682
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:26.880
<v Speaker 2>you're not looking to impose even a libertarian order on others,

683
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.440
<v Speaker 2>they will impose their way of life on you. And

684
00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 2>there's simply never some kind of detente in which you

685
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:35.679
<v Speaker 2>live the way you want and they live the way

686
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:36.079
<v Speaker 2>they want.

687
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:36.280
<v Speaker 1>No.

688
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.880
<v Speaker 2>If you are forming a society without a state, and

689
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.719
<v Speaker 2>they are forming a society with centralized state authority, then

690
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:45.559
<v Speaker 2>one day the state with centralized authority will come knocking

691
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.920
<v Speaker 2>on your disorganized state and they will win. And we

692
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.800
<v Speaker 2>see it over and over and over again.

693
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.639
<v Speaker 1>Will you see that in the history of the American right.

694
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Many have said, and there's a great deal of truth

695
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.000
<v Speaker 1>to this, that America does really have a right wing

696
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.559
<v Speaker 1>tradition in the same way as other countries. The contention is, effectively,

697
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.280
<v Speaker 1>America is a contest between two different types of progressives.

698
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.679
<v Speaker 1>Now not necessarily looking to litigate that at this moment,

699
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.920
<v Speaker 1>but if we look at the origin of what we

700
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:23.159
<v Speaker 1>consider to be the Republican Party functionally, we have to

701
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:26.639
<v Speaker 1>go back to FDR. Right, that's where this and let's

702
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:29.599
<v Speaker 1>be honest, also, the Libertarians sort of get their start

703
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:33.719
<v Speaker 1>because you have a pre existing order, right, and at

704
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:36.679
<v Speaker 1>least one large portion of this was very pro what

705
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:41.000
<v Speaker 1>we consider a big business in high finance. And when

706
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:45.440
<v Speaker 1>FDR comes in rules like an American season, starts changing things,

707
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, violating the previous understanding of the constitution, Well,

708
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:56.079
<v Speaker 1>this force builds up in opposition and They're referred to,

709
00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 1>depending on who you ask, as sort of the old right,

710
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:03.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, pre uh, you know, pre FDR, kind of

711
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:07.800
<v Speaker 1>that desire, and so you see people like you know,

712
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.559
<v Speaker 1>Garrett Garrett who sort of defected from one side to another.

713
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.199
<v Speaker 1>But these are seminal figures. They influenced, you know, Goldwater,

714
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:20.719
<v Speaker 1>They influenced the kind of nation American right, and so

715
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:25.199
<v Speaker 1>I think it is relevant to say, well, what did

716
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 1>they do? How successful were they? I have a great

717
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 1>deal of affection for these men. I think they were right.

718
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:32.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, FDR was not a good guy, and he

719
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 1>didn't do good things to the country, but we're still

720
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.159
<v Speaker 1>living in the house that FDR built. Obviously there's a

721
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:42.480
<v Speaker 1>dramatic change in the sixties with you know, how we

722
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:46.840
<v Speaker 1>understood the purpose of this nation. But fundamentally our government

723
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:51.159
<v Speaker 1>looks much much, much more like FDR's version than the

724
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:56.559
<v Speaker 1>government ten years before he ever showed up. Fundamentally, that

725
00:43:56.559 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 1>that process that or sorry that that protest you could

726
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.400
<v Speaker 1>say against FDR, this American dictator, well it failed because

727
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 1>he was in charge.

728
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:07.559
<v Speaker 2>He had power.

729
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:12.880
<v Speaker 1>He could successfully remake the ground on which we play politics.

730
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:17.840
<v Speaker 1>And sure, those guys who wanted to go back to

731
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.440
<v Speaker 1>a previous version where the state was small, where many

732
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:25.480
<v Speaker 1>things were not regulated. They were right, that would be better.

733
00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.599
<v Speaker 1>I think the country was better before him on any

734
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.440
<v Speaker 1>number of metrics. But fundamentally, if you don't have power,

735
00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:39.039
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter because power lets you not only make changes,

736
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 1>but define to crib aligned from Tom Woods right, the

737
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:47.880
<v Speaker 1>three x five card of allowable opinions, you have set

738
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:54.079
<v Speaker 1>what is acceptable for generations. And so fundamentally, if you

739
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:59.559
<v Speaker 1>are unwilling to assume power, you are relegating yourself to

740
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:06.000
<v Speaker 1>a statu of eternal loser. You were also letting your enemy, unopposed,

741
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:09.880
<v Speaker 1>remake the fabric of society. And this matter is quite

742
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:13.679
<v Speaker 1>a bit going back to earlier in our conversation, because

743
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:18.639
<v Speaker 1>remember what determines liberty, what determines tyranny is that relationship

744
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:21.920
<v Speaker 1>between the ruler and the world. Are they aligned? And

745
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:26.800
<v Speaker 1>if you, like FDR was able to do successfully socially

746
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.480
<v Speaker 1>engineer your society, right, you put in all of these

747
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 1>programs that have now become entitlements. Social security is a

748
00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 1>great example for generations. That is simply part of what

749
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 1>it means to be in America. You reach sixty two

750
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:45.719
<v Speaker 1>and you collect social security, well, for any number of reasons.

751
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:50.039
<v Speaker 1>If that, if you have decided that needs to go away, well,

752
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.679
<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden, the vast majority of people, you

753
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:57.599
<v Speaker 1>are a tyrant. You're taking away grandma's retirement, You're taking

754
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.519
<v Speaker 1>away her ability to support herself. And is that true

755
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:05.599
<v Speaker 1>in an absolute sense, right, comparing tyranny to Genghis Khan. No,

756
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 1>of course not. But functionally, by failing the contest, by

757
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:15.320
<v Speaker 1>being driven out of power, you have allowed your enemy

758
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.079
<v Speaker 1>a massive hand up for the next iteration of the game. Right,

759
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 1>going forward, you are not simply stuck at a fifty

760
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:24.840
<v Speaker 1>to fifty anymore. If this is tug of war, you're

761
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.360
<v Speaker 1>on your tiptoes on the line. And so the idea

762
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:32.880
<v Speaker 1>that you can simply continue to give up, continue not

763
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 1>to fight, and then well, at some point in the

764
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:39.159
<v Speaker 1>future things will get bad enough clearly not. That's not

765
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.920
<v Speaker 1>how it works. And so this this assumption about politics,

766
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:47.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, this assumption about power, is deeply, deeply buried

767
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:50.639
<v Speaker 1>in both and I'm using these terms semi interchangeably because

768
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:54.519
<v Speaker 1>on this issue at least they are aligned Libertarians and conservatives.

769
00:46:54.760 --> 00:46:57.400
<v Speaker 1>They need to get rid of this because this is

770
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.920
<v Speaker 1>why you always lose and as Arun said earlier, this

771
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:04.440
<v Speaker 1>criticism is not coming from a place of personal hatred,

772
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:08.280
<v Speaker 1>far from it. These are my people, this is who

773
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I grew up around. But if I want those people

774
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:16.760
<v Speaker 1>to have a certain degree of liberty, right to escape

775
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:22.719
<v Speaker 1>or to sort of throw off this tyranny, well someone

776
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.760
<v Speaker 1>needs to have power and someone who shares those values.

777
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.039
<v Speaker 1>That is the only way out of this, because otherwise

778
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 1>it will be someone else making that decision. But no

779
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:36.400
<v Speaker 1>matter what, no matter the situation, a decision is being made.

780
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.840
<v Speaker 1>It is not simply left up to kind of trends

781
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:46.239
<v Speaker 1>and forces the market whatever. That means. Power and politics

782
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:49.280
<v Speaker 1>are a function of human organization. There's no way to

783
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:52.039
<v Speaker 1>get around that, no matter how ichy or gross you

784
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:56.920
<v Speaker 1>think that is. And if you're not in power, someone

785
00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:00.639
<v Speaker 1>else will and they will impose their there's set of

786
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:05.880
<v Speaker 1>values on you. There's no way around that. One more thing,

787
00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:10.039
<v Speaker 1>I think, and we've been dancing around this partially due

788
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.440
<v Speaker 1>to the fact that I, as you've probably noticed, arn Am,

789
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:17.679
<v Speaker 1>not the most organized podcaster, is the sort of floating

790
00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:23.119
<v Speaker 1>target of what is or what constitutes a libertarian society.

791
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Because these guys will very accurately make fun of socialists

792
00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:32.199
<v Speaker 1>and Marxists, they will say, hahaha, real communism has never

793
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:39.679
<v Speaker 1>been tried. But of course the next question is, well, like,

794
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:44.199
<v Speaker 1>where is your ideology been tried? Right, where do we

795
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:50.519
<v Speaker 1>find a version of your society working out? And so arn,

796
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:55.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious to get your thoughts on and Kapistan has

797
00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:59.199
<v Speaker 1>never been tried. Sort of argumentation that tends to happen

798
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:01.440
<v Speaker 1>when you actually try to, you know, dig down on

799
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:02.039
<v Speaker 1>this issue.

800
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that often they'll cite something like the

801
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:08.960
<v Speaker 2>United States, as you know, early in the United States

802
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:11.400
<v Speaker 2>is an example. But as you've already pointed out, that

803
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 2>version of libertarian society came with, you know, anti blasphemy laws,

804
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:18.239
<v Speaker 2>and you if you brought up game erriage, they'd probably

805
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:21.079
<v Speaker 2>execute you as a heretic. And you know, these these

806
00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:24.559
<v Speaker 2>are not things that modern libertarianism can even really broach.

807
00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:28.480
<v Speaker 2>Which is one of the main problems with libertarian as such.

808
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.000
<v Speaker 2>One of the issues that we could run up almost

809
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:34.679
<v Speaker 2>immediately with anytime you have a conversation with libertarian is

810
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the minute you point out a flaw, they say, well,

811
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:39.400
<v Speaker 2>that's not real Libertarians, by which they mean there are

812
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:42.800
<v Speaker 2>at least nineteen different splinter groups of libertarianism, and you

813
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:46.000
<v Speaker 2>happen to have not identified the exact boutique brew of

814
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.960
<v Speaker 2>libertarianism that I have my head, and so therefore any

815
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.320
<v Speaker 2>objection you have, we'll run up against one of the

816
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:54.679
<v Speaker 2>thirteen niche little things that I believe, and therefore cannot

817
00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:58.360
<v Speaker 2>be accurate. And to be fair, any you know, movement

818
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.960
<v Speaker 2>has its splinters. Obviously, if we think of ourselves as

819
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:04.559
<v Speaker 2>conservatives or right wingers, we would also be looping in

820
00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:07.119
<v Speaker 2>with a lumped in with guys like Lindsey Graham or

821
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:11.119
<v Speaker 2>something with which we disagree quite quite fervently. So I'm

822
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:13.519
<v Speaker 2>sympathetic to that. But it is a real issue, and

823
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.920
<v Speaker 2>that whenever you have a discussion with libertarian the question is,

824
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:19.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, the first thing you should ask is which

825
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:23.199
<v Speaker 2>libertarian are you? Because there's at least twenty different varieties

826
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:24.480
<v Speaker 2>I can think of off the top of my head,

827
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and they don't agree with each other on a lot

828
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.519
<v Speaker 2>of things. Some of them are open borders, some of

829
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:32.320
<v Speaker 2>them are pro pedophilia or child trafficking. Some of them

830
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:36.360
<v Speaker 2>think that you can have like really strict contracts that

831
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:40.239
<v Speaker 2>allow you to you know, segregate society inside libertarian society.

832
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:43.159
<v Speaker 2>The differences are vast to the point where they basically

833
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:46.920
<v Speaker 2>share nothing. And so saying the word libertarian society is

834
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's nothing. It means nothing. It has no content.

835
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:56.119
<v Speaker 2>And so if Greg Guttfeld and Bill Maher can both

836
00:50:56.159 --> 00:50:59.159
<v Speaker 2>call themselves libertarians, what does the word even mean? Right

837
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:02.239
<v Speaker 2>like that? That's a huge issue. So the first problem

838
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.760
<v Speaker 2>is you can't even nail them down on what a

839
00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:08.199
<v Speaker 2>libertarian society would be. But then if you look on like, okay,

840
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:13.280
<v Speaker 2>what versions of like hyper capitalistic libertarian societies are successful? Well,

841
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.760
<v Speaker 2>you got to look at a place like Singapore, right, Well,

842
00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:19.079
<v Speaker 2>what Singapore got going for it? Is it free? Well,

843
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:22.920
<v Speaker 2>in many instances, yes, is orderly. Oh yes, very orderly.

844
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.519
<v Speaker 2>But they'll lasso cane you in the streets for spitting gum.

845
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:30.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, they'll they'll they'll execute you for smuggling marijuana

846
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:35.039
<v Speaker 2>into their society. So it's the inverse of libertarian in

847
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 2>certain areas, which is what allows it to be successfully

848
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:41.800
<v Speaker 2>libertarian in every other area. The only reason that Singapore

849
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:46.920
<v Speaker 2>can be a multi ethnic, multi religious, capitalistic paradise is

850
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:48.760
<v Speaker 2>because it's willing to beat you to death if you

851
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.639
<v Speaker 2>don't follow the rules. And so this is what you

852
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:55.119
<v Speaker 2>know libertarianism requires in the real world. Again, this is

853
00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:00.039
<v Speaker 2>the NRX understanding of libertarianism, authoritarianism on the outside to

854
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:04.159
<v Speaker 2>allow for libertarianism on the inside. But there's another problem

855
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:07.920
<v Speaker 2>that libertarians never really want to face, which is scale, which,

856
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:09.800
<v Speaker 2>to be fair, is a problem that no one wants

857
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.039
<v Speaker 2>to face, which is why it's my number one hobby horse.

858
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:14.880
<v Speaker 2>When you don't think about how scale impacts your society,

859
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:18.679
<v Speaker 2>you don't take into account critical aspects of your social organization.

860
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.599
<v Speaker 2>So for a while there, you know, we had a

861
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:27.320
<v Speaker 2>situation where governments were so disjointed that a single person acting,

862
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, with a enough initiative, could create large amounts

863
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:33.639
<v Speaker 2>of wealth and a large prosperity for themselves and the

864
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:37.079
<v Speaker 2>people around them. But as societies have scaled up, we've

865
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.159
<v Speaker 2>seen that the ability to do that shrinks, and it

866
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:43.000
<v Speaker 2>doesn't get solved just because your society is libertarian and

867
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:46.840
<v Speaker 2>another isn't. A good example would be medieval Europe. Many

868
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:51.000
<v Speaker 2>people call this medieval anarchy, which might sound crazy to people,

869
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:53.719
<v Speaker 2>but if you talk to actual libertarian scholars, many of

870
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:56.880
<v Speaker 2>them will tell you that actually, the you know, feudal

871
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Europe was more libertarian then modern societies because there was

872
00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:06.079
<v Speaker 2>no central government, not because they didn't desire a central government,

873
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.199
<v Speaker 2>not because they were ideologically opposed to central government, but

874
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:12.519
<v Speaker 2>because after the devastation of the Roman Empire, there was

875
00:53:12.519 --> 00:53:15.440
<v Speaker 2>simply no force that could unify the different areas of

876
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.599
<v Speaker 2>Europe underwent authority, and so we developed a system where

877
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:24.800
<v Speaker 2>feudal lords, barons and counts and these other dukes would

878
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:29.599
<v Speaker 2>ultimately secure an area for themselves through violence, and then

879
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:33.079
<v Speaker 2>eventually you would have a higher warlord, a king, and

880
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:36.440
<v Speaker 2>he would kind of unify those barons under him. But

881
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:38.800
<v Speaker 2>still there was a high degree of autonomy in any

882
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>given region because there was simply no way for the

883
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:46.880
<v Speaker 2>king to ultimately impress compel behavior from his different barons.

884
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Most of the time, it was more of the king

885
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:52.280
<v Speaker 2>as a first among equals, trying to convince his different

886
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.960
<v Speaker 2>nobles to give their banners to his cause, rather than

887
00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:59.840
<v Speaker 2>some almighty emperor who was weighing down on the four

888
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:04.280
<v Speaker 2>of any given piece of his society. And it wasn't

889
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.599
<v Speaker 2>until we started to see the modernization and increase of

890
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:09.960
<v Speaker 2>scale that we started to see what we think of

891
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:15.679
<v Speaker 2>now as absolutism. And again, while absolutism is distinctly something

892
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.679
<v Speaker 2>that is monarchical. People like bertrand Jujuvenile I think credibly

893
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.760
<v Speaker 2>point to its development as actually an inevitable step towards

894
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.800
<v Speaker 2>modernity in which the state would unify under what we

895
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:29.400
<v Speaker 2>think of now as liberal democracy. But it couldn't have

896
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.519
<v Speaker 2>happened until you had kings powerful enough to centralize their

897
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:36.159
<v Speaker 2>power inside their entire kingdom to the point where that

898
00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:40.360
<v Speaker 2>medieval anarchy fell away. So you had moments where in

899
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:45.599
<v Speaker 2>that anarchic structure, a quasi libertarian existence was reasonable. But

900
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:50.480
<v Speaker 2>once you saw the absolutism start to solidify in these

901
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:53.719
<v Speaker 2>European nations, less and less it became clear, or more

902
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:57.159
<v Speaker 2>and more it became clear that this libertarian existence was

903
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:00.840
<v Speaker 2>no longer viable with these larger states. This is Alul's

904
00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:05.320
<v Speaker 2>famous tank problem. Once you have the leveon mass, everybody

905
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:07.920
<v Speaker 2>has to have the leveon mass. Once you have control

906
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:11.000
<v Speaker 2>of propaganda in your state, everyone needs to have control

907
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:12.599
<v Speaker 2>of propaganda in your state. And this is the great

908
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:16.840
<v Speaker 2>revolution in managerial styles. This is what James Burnham was

909
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:20.719
<v Speaker 2>pointing to that yes, you have technically fascism and liberal

910
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:24.320
<v Speaker 2>democracy and communism, but FDR and Stalin and Hitler, We're

911
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:26.400
<v Speaker 2>all trying to do the same thing. They're all trying

912
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:29.480
<v Speaker 2>to bring mass production and mass consumption and the mass

913
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:33.159
<v Speaker 2>understanding of politics under centralized control. They simply gave different

914
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:38.039
<v Speaker 2>political formulas for the same outcome. And so whether libertarianism

915
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:40.440
<v Speaker 2>or not as achievable, it's not something that any given

916
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.960
<v Speaker 2>area or group of people gets to decide, because you're

917
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:46.199
<v Speaker 2>not the only actors. It's nice if you have a

918
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:49.760
<v Speaker 2>nice libertarian society. But if China decides that they're collective,

919
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:57.000
<v Speaker 2>quasi communists, fascistic, neo you know, capitalistic empire, whatever we're

920
00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:58.840
<v Speaker 2>calling it. If they decide that they're going to roll

921
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:01.079
<v Speaker 2>you over, well, what are you going to do? Do

922
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:04.960
<v Speaker 2>you have the production to outrun a billion plus people?

923
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:08.039
<v Speaker 2>Do you have the military might to stop an empire

924
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 2>of that size? Is your libertarian advantage through three free

925
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:14.639
<v Speaker 2>market economics and the ability of people to choose what

926
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:16.800
<v Speaker 2>they want? Is that going to stop China from rolling

927
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:20.119
<v Speaker 2>you up like a carpet? Probably not, And so it

928
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.400
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter ultimately if you want to be a libertarian society.

929
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.119
<v Speaker 2>If your neighbor has collectivized to the point where they

930
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.280
<v Speaker 2>can crush your libertarian society, just like we saw in

931
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:33.039
<v Speaker 2>feudal Europe. Well, then it doesn't matter what you want

932
00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:35.920
<v Speaker 2>as an individual, baron or count. And that's again something

933
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:38.840
<v Speaker 2>that libertarians never factor in when they're thinking about their

934
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:39.840
<v Speaker 2>ultimate society.

935
00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:45.400
<v Speaker 1>And the problem of scale, I mean, really is that

936
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.039
<v Speaker 1>is the rub that's what makes conversations about modern politics

937
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:53.599
<v Speaker 1>so difficult. And one of the things that I have

938
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:56.840
<v Speaker 1>and many others have noted is the fact that you're

939
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.599
<v Speaker 1>seeing within America sort of a great re organization where

940
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:06.199
<v Speaker 1>people are moving from you know, Republican voters from blue

941
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.800
<v Speaker 1>states are moving to red states and sort of vice versa. Right,

942
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.960
<v Speaker 1>we see people polarizing, and at least a large part

943
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:16.320
<v Speaker 1>of that, and I don't want to, you know, overemphasize

944
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:21.679
<v Speaker 1>that trend is the fact that it's almost impossible to

945
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:24.639
<v Speaker 1>get what you want on you know, a specific issue

946
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:29.119
<v Speaker 1>by issue basis from national politics, right, like even issues

947
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:32.440
<v Speaker 1>like you know, gun control. Right, yes, sure, you know,

948
00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 1>the Democrats, you know, whine and moan about that, but

949
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:39.679
<v Speaker 1>the probability of federal level gun control is relatively small, right,

950
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:41.920
<v Speaker 1>it seems to be sort of a dead issue, whereas

951
00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:45.280
<v Speaker 1>in blue states or recently blue states, well, you can

952
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.079
<v Speaker 1>have you know, Britain levels right if you want, and

953
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:52.239
<v Speaker 1>so seemingly if you are passionate about that issue or

954
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:56.280
<v Speaker 1>any others, the solution is we'll move to a smaller place,

955
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:59.599
<v Speaker 1>move to a place where you can create a consensus

956
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:03.840
<v Speaker 1>around it. Right. But steering this whole ship of you know,

957
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:07.800
<v Speaker 1>four hundred million people is incredibly difficult to do. Now,

958
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:10.280
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't mean it can't happen, right, clearly, you know

959
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:12.719
<v Speaker 1>we have federal level laws at any given moment that

960
00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:18.159
<v Speaker 1>are making life difficult. Not my point, but the problem

961
00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:22.199
<v Speaker 1>of how to make this massive scrotic machine do anything

962
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:26.920
<v Speaker 1>is yeah, Look, it's felt by everyone, right, We understand

963
00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:29.559
<v Speaker 1>that it's very difficult to actually get this ship to

964
00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:32.840
<v Speaker 1>move one side or the other. Well maybe more one

965
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 1>side than the other. But that's a discussion for a

966
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:38.119
<v Speaker 1>different day. So Arn, thank you so much for coming on.

967
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:41.239
<v Speaker 1>This was a very fascinating discussion. I enjoyed it greatly.

968
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.480
<v Speaker 1>People are interested in you. We've mentioned you have a

969
00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:47.079
<v Speaker 1>book now coming out in a second edition, but where

970
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:48.079
<v Speaker 1>else can people find you?

971
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:51.599
<v Speaker 2>Well? Thanks always a pleasure to be with you, Jay,

972
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.280
<v Speaker 2>And of course people can catch Jay Burden regularly on

973
00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:57.159
<v Speaker 2>my show on the Blaze. You can go to Blaze TV.

974
00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:00.719
<v Speaker 2>You can head to YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey. Of course I'm

975
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:05.119
<v Speaker 2>on places like Spotify, any podcast network, Apple, all those things.

976
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:06.159
<v Speaker 2>You can always find me there.

977
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Well great, those will all be linked in the description

978
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.920
<v Speaker 1>as far as my stuff. The Jay Burton Show available Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

979
00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 1>anywhere you want to listen to podcasts what I do now.

980
00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:19.119
<v Speaker 1>If you want to support me and avoid all those

981
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:21.960
<v Speaker 1>irritating ads, you can head over to Patreon, Substack or

982
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:26.400
<v Speaker 1>gum Road get the episodes early and ad free again. Aaron,

983
00:59:26.519 --> 00:59:29.159
<v Speaker 1>it was a pleasure. Never went home. Keep your head up.

984
00:59:29.320 --> 01:00:00.760
<v Speaker 1>I can't last forever. Good Night six