Speaker 1: What is up?
Speaker 2: Fellasiko's I Am Dan Valley coming at you with the one,
the only, this certified fantabulous. Mister Grant Hughes, we as
a collective at the Hardwood Knocks NBA podcast would like
to wish you a happy back from All Star Break.
We were recording this though before the games started, so
we hope you enjoyed the Bobblehead like mini.
Speaker 1: Episode we put out.
Speaker 2: Its a YouTube exclusive, and we also hope you enjoyed
we finally published the Mount Rushmore, every team's Mount Rushmore
since two thousand, Like granted I did?
Speaker 1: Is that over the offseason for br Yeah?
Speaker 3: What is time? Probably?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but they let us post it, so we
hope you enjoyed that. Go check it out if you haven't.
And now it's time. This is the last pre recorded
thing we have for Karma rankings. Grant, we're trying to
figure out which team deserves the number one pick in
the draft lottery this year the most. While everyone's talking
about tanking and solutions to tanking, we've decided that deserve
got got everything.
Speaker 3: To do it got everyone, you know what? Thanks though,
because when you were gonna ask me how I was
doing I had already thought about I'm gonna say I'm
excited to let everyone know that deserve has everything to
do with it. So we've now officially spoken into microphones
together long enough to where you don't really need both
of us because because the hive mind is so real
that the same thoughts just pour out.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I have a question though, and this is my ignorance.
I was trying to think of as I was saying it.
Where is the original quote?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't remember. I thought I was
gonna ask you. I'm sure it's one of those people
are screaming at the at the end of their phones
are at the screen right now because it's super obvious,
but I can't remember. It feels like a it's either
like a mob movie or like a waste the wire.
That's right, So neither of those things there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's us like, that's like a mob adjacent kind
of kind of excellent show. But the way I'm assuming
you watched it, right, I have seen it. Yeah, that's
one of the hit shows I've actually seen, just like
in the know.
Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about the Wire. But how
are you actually doing?
Speaker 3: I'm doing great, I'm really excited to get through. Like,
I don't know that we're going to solve anything here,
but this exercise really did sort of help crystallize what
I'm rooting for now with respect to the lottery. And
it's stupid to root for the lottery because by definition
it's got some elements of randomness to it. But this
to me, you know me, I always wanted to make sense.
I'm always trying to like, that's just that's important to me.
Things that are ridiculous. I wanted to make sense. This
is now. The outcomes we will lay out shortly are
what will make sense to me should they come to pass.
With the ping pong balls and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: This is actually how the NBA Draft Lottery is going
to unfold from now on, is that the NBA is
going to put it through our give it to us,
and we'll put it through the Karma scale and we
will who gets what pick. But Karma stands for because
it's very hard to put together for something with its
acronym karmack awareness results in maximum advancement. If you can't
tell that was forced, Thank you. I appreciate that what
we set out to do here was to somewhat objectively
but mostly subjectively, determined well which teams that would actually
deserve to get the number one pick in this year's
draft lottery. There was some weeding out of the process
to where mathematically the Sixers could still get the number
one pick. They could fall out of where they are
in the East, their pick is top four protected. We
didn't consider those instances. There's not any of them really
in the West.
Speaker 1: It's pretty cut and dry when you look at the standings.
Speaker 2: The two objective quote unquote metrics that we use to
determine karma was playoff drought, but then also playoff series
victory drought, and so we tried to get a cumulative score,
so we add those two together. But your score for
your playoff series victory was capped at the number of
teams we have in the ranking. So if you had
a twenty five year playoff series drought, it maxed out
at fifteen because you don't want that to wait too heavily.
Because that gets into a couple of the other questions
we asked ourselves when ranking these teams. Did you want
to take us through any of those questions?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think just to put a finer point
on the playoff drought. Wait here it would skew had
we just gone with the raw number, it would have
skewed results in a way that seemed unfair. And this
is all about being fair. So for example, the Kings
have or no, who's got the crazy long play? Well,
the Kings have a playoff series drought of like or
win playoff series win drought of twenty two? Right, So
every other scale here goes from one to fifteen, and
you want a high score, you want the fifteens. So
giving the Kings a twenty two in one category just like, well, yeah,
in some ways, I guess if you're if you're a
one issue voter, the fact that they haven't had a
playoff series in twenty two years might make you say, well,
then they need the number one pick.
Speaker 1: Now just say that because of the hat that I'm wearing.
Speaker 3: Turn that hat around just quickly so everybody knows what
it is, and that's great.
Speaker 1: Check out how hard one Knox merch proude. Do you
know why I got it?
Speaker 2: In?
Speaker 1: What is this strawberry cherry red with.
Speaker 3: Available in red? If you want to freak your family out,
just briefly before you explain yourself. So so yeah. In
addition to the wighing the playoff series win drought. I'm
never gonna that's never gonna sound right coming out of
my mouth.
Speaker 2: Is that the right way to say it? Because it
is a mouthful even thinking it in my head?
Speaker 3: Just the longest the most years since this team won
a playoff series, which is similarly unwieldy, but we also
factored in years since the last playoff appearance. Kind of
the similar waiting the other categories we included here again,
rating these fifteen teams, we're going to discuss one to fifteen.
Fifteen is the score you want if you want to
win the Karmick rankings, basically to deserve the number one
pick you want numbers not and one means you don't
deserve shit basically for at least as far as this
category goes. Franchise competency, which basically like how how effectively
has your front office and ownership operated? Now, please Dan
jump in and add anything that is in your head
for these categories as I go through.
Speaker 2: One excellent way to explain the grading scale, So thank
you for simplifying math down I would have it would
have taken me like two thousand words.
Speaker 1: To explain what you explained.
Speaker 2: But two, what I did find challenging, but it was
all part of the process was front office regimes have
changed for some of these teams, but in most cases
a lot of the constants were ownership and so like
that's sort of how you balance it out. And also
you can have multiple front office regimes operating poorly and right.
But it was that was a factor we did try
to account for because.
Speaker 3: The thinking is, we don't want to reward a team
with a fifteen in this category and give them, you know,
good shot at the at the number one pick, because
they've been mismanaged. Like that's so that's the karma part
of it, right, We're not we're rewarding like sort of ethical,
honorable attempts to be successful as an NBA franchise. If
you're just screwing up over and over and over again,
we will award you very few points. So in addition
to franchise competency, we have how badly does this team
need a best player? Because that's the point of the
favorite category, great category and simple. Right, It's like, if
you have this obvious about to be superstar or already
superstar X, that's young you don't need a lot of
points in this category because you've got your guy. The
whole point of winning the lotteries to go get your guy.
If you already have him, you're getting a one, and
if you really really need him, you're getting a fifteen.
After that, ethical competitive spirit, this is our we're addressing
tanking basically here. If you have engaged in shenanigans to
lose on purpose, the more egregious the offense in that regard,
the fewer points you will get in this category. If
if you've just tried to win or come as close
to it as possiblesistantly, you're gonna get a high score here.
It's gonna help your chance to win the uh Karma
rankings essentially.
Speaker 2: Which I will point out. I don't know if I
should say support. I understand I think teams should tank
based off the way the current lottery system is set up.
Speaker 1: So this isn't meant to ding them.
Speaker 2: It's just we have these categories to distinguish different things,
and so it's not you know, the Jazz are not
gonna score they're probably middle of the back, but in
the shenanigans category they've embraced s Shenanigans in part because
they had to. And I understand it, but for this process,
we are not going to reward.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's this is a thorny one. I mean it's
basically like, the incentives are such that you should try
to lose on purpose still if you want a high
lottery pick. And so this I guess this is a
category we're assigning scores to, like without judgment, although there
is some judgment implicit in it, because we're not gonna
reward you if you have tanked really egregiously, like say
you've been fined several times or things like that, like
if you're really compromising the competitive integrity of the sport,
it's gonna it's not gonna help you. Basically, and again,
we get it. We know what the incentives are. We
get it's like smart to do that sometimes, but we're
not gonna reward it.
Speaker 2: And I hate I hate singling out the jazz. I
think why the jazz get singled out so often. I honestly,
I don't know why they get singled out so often,
but I think part of the reason is that they're
always performing better than they should relative to the talent,
Like even right now, as we're recording this their sixth
in crunch time point differential, which is just stupid when
you consider that, how many games have we seen in
fourth quarters now where Jaron Jackson Junior before his surgery
or Lowry Market and weren't playing And it's not part
of that, Like what they're doing, like that helped favor
their going back to their front office competency score. Well,
just front office clearly understands what it's doing.
Speaker 3: There is a relationship there, I think between those two
categories front office competency and like your ethical competitive spirit.
The last category is burned by the lottery gods to
what extent. If you've had bad luck based on what
your draft picks should have been statistically over and over
and over again, we're gonna we're gonna help you out
a little bit. If you've had like incredibly good luck
and say jumped up several spots when you didn't really
need the pick or just it was statistically improbable, that's
not gonna help you score better here fair enough.
Speaker 2: Like basically that everything the big thing there was that
final category with burned by the lottery gods. A lot
of it felt anecdotal, but it was the ones that
stood out to where the Dallas like one one really
huge bump was enough for you to score low. When
you look at the Dallas Mavericks getting Cooper Flag as
an example, that would be or if you're looking at
the Spurs regardless of what their lottery position was, but
oh you have Wemby and Steph Castle and Dylan Harper,
and how you got those those guys so quickly, So
that's what would hurt your score. But I will say
one pick, the Hawks being an example, getting the number
one pick in Zachary Resi schey.
Speaker 1: No, you might not love.
Speaker 2: That's not necessarily gonna help them in the best we
need the best player category, but the fact they jumped
up so much that alone is enough to swing their
rank to a pretty stark degree.
Speaker 3: Yep. And so just to wrap it, the higher the
score the better, meaning like if you have the highest
score out of these fifteen teams, that means we think
you deserve the number one pick the most or whatever
you deserve a comeup, I guess if you don't want
to just say it's about the number one pick, but
it sort of is. If you have a low score,
we think you don't deserve it karmiclely because you have
not you have not operated honorably, and or you already
have had enough winfalls to where you don't need another one.
I get think it's kind of how I'm looking at it.
Do you ever calculate what the maximum possible score would
have been like if you've gotten a fifteen in what one, two, three, four, five,
six categories? That's seventy five times both of our votes.
So one hundred and fifty is the highest score you
could possibly get. Spoil it. Nobody's over one hundred. So
there's a fair amount of dispersion between the scores here,
but it's really I guess it's more important to consider
just relative to each other, what the scores look like.
Speaker 2: And I will say we get to a point where
probably once we get certainly by the top ten, like
it's all the margins aren't huge, and when you get
to like the top the top four or five, the
top four, they're really close. And so no team ran away,
Well there are clear tiers, but no team ran away
with this entire exercise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right right, And.
Speaker 2: With that said, are you ready who finished again? Fifteen teams?
You're ready to get through? Who finished fifteenth.
Speaker 3: Sure, this is a team that deserves that has the
least karma, a Karma score of twenty seven. It's the
Dallas Mavericks. So we had, as I'm looking across our
setup here, we single digited them in every single category.
They did not score higher than a five in any category.
And really, I don't know now as I'm looking back
at it, I probably should have given them a lower
score in that category. Personally, the main issues here for you,
I guess jump in whenever is you gave them the
lowest possible score and ethical competitive spirit. Please explain yourself.
You give them a one there.
Speaker 2: Just because what they did in the draft to get
when you actually pivot out of a chance to get
into the playoffs that late where they had to throw
the season that quickly, and I think it last year.
Speaker 3: This is last year post Luca. Right, well it's.
Speaker 1: Last year post Luca, but it's also the member of
the pick.
Speaker 2: But it was a pick that was Kasen Willis, but
they turned it into Derek Lively disorder of operations. So
to punt on that, that's an argument for why did
these types of pick protections exist? And I get it
from their perspective, but that was just that was not
something necessarily that we haven't seen before, but because of
the way the playing era works, to see a team
do something like that to where it was their their
season could have been extended. They actually had a chance
to still get into the playoffs going into that closing kick,
and they just the eleventh hour and they just decided
not to How well, you who have we seen come
that close and then actively pivot out of the playoffs
like that in recent memory.
Speaker 3: The thing too is they had like top flight talent
on the roster when it happened, Like Luca was there
for basically every instance you're talking about. And now the
real thing for me, or one of the real things
is like they've certainly not been burned by the lottery
gouts because those those shnanigans worked out. They ended up
with Cooper Flag mainly, and the fact that they have
Cooper Flag means that they very clearly have their guy.
So you don't need another, you don't need more. Luck
now you you are as well positioned as you can
be after the last couple of years of some iffy behavior,
I guess, other than like the whole Nico Harrison of
it all, really cripples there and really just the Luca
trades working really hard here, which you should, but the
like front office competency really gets stinged pretty hard because
of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is you actually had them lower in
the competency scale than I did.
Speaker 3: You make the the worst trade in recent I mean
long memory. You just you're gonna.
Speaker 2: Get We should have clarified this too, is that the
reason we considered playoff droughts and then playoff series wins
droughts was because we were trying to account for fan
base pain because it's not the fan base's fault that
the Mavericks went and made one of the worst trades
in NBA history.
Speaker 1: We actually want to reward you for that.
Speaker 2: But they're in a terrible case because they don't get
a bump in any of those drought categories. That trade
was so bad because they were such a relevant team
and they had just been to the finals and so
this was they still wouldn't have won.
Speaker 1: So I don't feel bad that.
Speaker 2: They're here, but that's that's ultimately why they're so low,
is that the fan base pain in just that tiny
trunk caated vacuum is so much like that threshold is
so high, but because it it hasn't been over a
longer period of time. That's ultimately why the like that's
the only thing that could have bumped frankly, the Mavericks'
score up and higher.
Speaker 3: And as we'll see as we move to the next team,
the gap between Dallas and the fourteenth team in karma
score is bigger than the gap between any other two teams.
It's it's like, I think it's pretty clear that the
Mavericks do not need or deserve any any They don't
have any karma. They don't deserve much luck going forward.
Speaker 2: Number fourteen checking in the San Antonio Spurs. I think
it's terrible that they don't deserve any karma. I mean,
Victor Webenyama needs a best player on the teams that
he can be fully actualized. But I don't like that's
the I you put them in. The category that was
most fascinating to me with them was how badly do
they need a best player?
Speaker 1: Is you gave them dead last.
Speaker 2: I gave them second, and we won't I won't spoil
who I put.
Speaker 1: Is like dead last there.
Speaker 2: But that was the that was always going to be
the one that killed them. What became difficult with them,
is that when you're accounting for this is they have
the playoff series victory. Krout was actually pretty long, but
they're losing because this is a swap. They're not getting
any like bump from the year since they were in
their playoff appearance. Now that gap ultimately wouldn't matter too much,
but that's what also represses their score is that we
know they're going to make the playoffs at this point,
so we don't get to account for the playoff drought.
When you were going through this, were you surprised and
we ended up putting them in the same spot at
how low they finished when we were looking at the
franchise competency.
Speaker 3: Score, I think so, I mean they they did well
in franchise competency score, right, we both gave them elevens
out of fifteen, So there's only four teams that we
thought had been more competent. I think, speaking for myself,
some of that's probably outdated to how the Spurs are
just they're a model franchise, like they haven't been perfect
post Popovich, and there's definitely allowed contingent of people that
are like, well, if they don't get tim duncan none
of this happens anyway. I don't subscribe to that thinking.
Sure that helps, but like, okay, what team isn't defined
by the generational player they end up getting. I think
in general, like I think, just sticking recently, the Castle
pick looks like the right pick. We like the Harper pick.
Obviously Wemby is you don't get credit for that, But
I think this Spur is generally draft pretty well. They
seem like a very high functioning operation. It's one of
those things where it's like I forget who we were
talking to. Maybe it's a different I mean it was
a radio hit or something, but it was like, you
just don't hear about their executive structure like ever, you know,
like you don't it just because it just runs and
it's fine and nobody wants the credit or at least outwardly.
It just seems like everything works well there and there's
a lot of sane, rational actors in charge. And I think,
I don't know if you can tell me by because
we ended up we didn't discuss like where we were
going to rank these things, so that we both rated
them so high. I'm curious what you're thinking was on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the only thing I could really ding them for
was if you go back to I wasn't even thinking
the Tim Duncan tanking thing. It was the how they've
managed trades or how long they kind of stayed in them.
So there was the Kuhi trade, but then what did
that spawn this long period where they were kind of
okay existing and you know, and it felt like they
didn't have higher amps. And when I said so low,
I framed that wrongly. But there's just I mean, karmically
the things that hurt them was they don't need a
best player. And then also they have not been burned
by the lottery got to you just look at who
that like the Dylan Harper pick like that changed the
whole Everyone's like, should they have traded Ford Aaron Fox
if they would have known they were this pick?
Speaker 1: And they probably wouldn't have.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean in that sense they sorted know, yeah,
they I think you could get it, make it as
simple as we could have just stopped here, like you
got wim bin Yama, Like you're good, like you don't
you don't need any and you've you've got what in
the last three drafts you've picked what was Castle number five.
So you've gotten top five picks in three straight drafts,
Like you don't need any more help.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I said their score, but Karma
score of forty seven compared to twenty seven for the
MAVs checking in at number fifteen. The final thing I'll
say too is why I think they I I guess
when I was asking the initial question about the front
office company to score is if you go through their
future draft picks, their own draft picks are not going
to be valuable because they should be so good.
Speaker 1: But they just have the case.
Speaker 2: In point why we're here talking about this person of all.
They just have these swaps with teams that will out.
It's just so far enough out that we don't know
what the Timberwolves are going to be, but like to
have a Kings swap that's insane. Yep, who comes in
at number thirteen Grant with a.
Speaker 3: Karma score of sixty one. So the gap is narrowing,
but this is the last, like really large gap. Yeah,
as I'm looking further up the chart, which fourteen points higher,
so I'm not quite twenty. We have the thunder. This
might seem, you know, like the thunder should just be
last because they're defending champs, like, who why should they
be even in you know anywhere? But dead last year?
One is because their franchise competency is a fifteen. This
is just like the most well oiled machine in the
in the league, maybe in sports, like you do the
organizational rankings across all sports. Their way up there just
because of they just win every transaction. They make a
lot of the right draft picks. Sam Presti just as
regarded as about as good as you can get in
a decision maker. The others I also gave them, and
this is one of our biggest differences, and it makes
me think I didn't think hard enough about it. I
gave them a fifteen and ethical competitive spirit, and I
do can see that that ignores some like shrewd quiet
tanking a few years ago. I was just more focused on,
like since they became this very good team three seasons ago,
I guess it's just like, well, they're not. They're trying
to win every game they play, so I kind of
maybe I have a memory hold for I think further
back seasons that should make this score lower. But that's
how they ended up here. Is there's some fifteen's on
the card. They got some TX scores.
Speaker 2: But I think what you're getting at though, is and
this is why I had them at seven in that
And I think just because people forget there was that
two year Yeah, like they did deliberate things to tank,
but to your point, it was two years to get
to a baseline where this is what they were building
on top of.
Speaker 1: And so I think you could argue.
Speaker 2: I think, honestly, if we were to go through this again,
but you look at the other teams and think it's
hard to delineate, you're probably closer than I might be
on the more extreme end of the spectrum because people,
I think it's fair to in mind, Yeah, Oklahoma City
had a tank to in part get where they are
right now, but a lot of it was so short.
And then a lot of the other things they've done
is hitting on trans like Isaiah Hartenstein is just a
perfect example here of them managing their books, striking at
the right time, and like that's a player who, even
despite the injuries, he adds just a whole bunch of
things to what they do without taking anything of their
core identity away. And so you're probably you're probably closer
to the majority or the consensus on that, and I
would be because you tank for and quote unquote tank
for two years just to get here. I mean, yes,
we know that the huge part of that's the byproduct
of the PG trade. But even that is they found
a way to trade both Paul George and Kawhi Leonard
and only one of those players was on their team.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, you you should talk. You gave them a one,
the lowest possible score, and how badly do they need
a best player? And it's just I didn't realize you
thought chet Holmgren was that good.
Speaker 2: Well this is more so about Brooks Barnheiser, but thank
you for your service. I was actually I understand that
Wemby's younger and I suppose more of an anomaly. But Shay,
assuming he's going to be able to play in enough
games about to win back to back MVPs and his
smack dab in the middle of his prime where it's
with Wemby, it's let's see will he be awards eligible
this year? I get the window and the runway or
technically longer, so I would understand why you'd pick I
think for.
Speaker 3: Me, yeah, I mean, Shae is the better player today.
There's no so in that sense, like you're just right
to make them the one there. I think for me
maybe I focus more on like we're building the team.
We're starting from the ground up, and I was like,
give me Wimby. That's like to me, that's like my
first pick if that's if that's what we're doing. But yeah,
Shay is better than he is today. Next year we
shall see. I don't know. So let's we got to
we're narrowing the gaps here. Who is our number twelve
team in the Karma rankings.
Speaker 2: With a Karmack score of sixty three. We have the
Atlanta Hawks. As we alluded to at the top of this,
they were most burned by their like burn They were
most burned by the burned by the lottery god score,
like jumping up and getting the number one pick, even
if you're not happy with the end result in that
draft a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: That's huge for them.
Speaker 2: I also will say that we both had them fairly
low in the franchise competency score, because no, this is
not a team when you get to ethical competitive spirit. Wow,
we were really similar across I haven't look at how
great ranked it. We just looked at the cumultive rankings.
They have not been a team that's tanked, but they've
just been aggressively mediocre really, even as they made.
Speaker 1: Their conference finals strip in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: And that's just not something you could support strongly. And
I think what also hurts them there is it kind
of felt like they've been caught in a caught in
a weird glimbo of trying to figure out whether they
should try to.
Speaker 1: Be better than aggressively mediocre.
Speaker 2: Or hit the reset button for almost a half decade
at this point. And that's just not a functional like
vacillation that you want to perpetuate for that long.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a good like broad encapsulation for me.
If I can think readily of incidents where I thought
like that was that I kind of thought that was
a risky decision at the time, or maybe even thought
it was bad or has been very quickly revealed to
be like a dumb decision. You're getting dinged here, and
so just like I don't know, like Reese' che was
probably the wrong at one The Dyson Daniels contract looks
real bad right now. The de Jonte Murray trade going
back doesn't look good. You also just traded Trey Young
at like the nada of his value. That's just just
going off the top of the head. I'm sure ever
going to the luxury tax? Right?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 3: Sure? That that should I mean, if anything, we should
probably weigh that pretty and maybe, man.
Speaker 1: The Pelicans are lucky they couldn't qualify for this exercise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that's interesting. Uh would they have been lower
than the maths? But so just that that factors in
if there's just a handful of like, oh god, what
is that was a mistake? Which if now that I've
just said all those, it kind of feels like the
Hawks should rank even lower. But the thing they haven't.
Speaker 1: They haven't tanked ever. When's the last time they Well,
that's true, that's true.
Speaker 3: We respect that, although not in a Chicago Bulls kind
of way. We don't respect that. Although good for them
they're doing it now. The fact that the Hawks have
that swap with the Pelicans is just like they have
such a good chance of again like just defying karma.
And although like that's a smart trade. I just listened
to all their dumb trads. That was a genius trade.
Everybody agreed it was the best trade of the offseason,
so like, I don't know, here's.
Speaker 2: A question though, getting into another category. I struggled with
it for this team, and I was clearly wrong about
Jalen Johnson. Overall, I did not know where to put
this team on the needs of best player scale. I
ultimately put them at four, which suggests that they don't
need a best player all that much. But man, when
you're looking at the threshold of I don't it really
depends on what lens you're looking through. Is it best
player on a championship contender, We could probably have a
really in depth discussion on whether that can be Jaalen Johnson.
But if it's best player on a top four team
in the conference, which is a broader look at and
probably more so in the spirit of how I considered it,
they've got them already, and so I ultimately put them
at four, which looks like that's where you put them
as well. But I I don't know if you thought
about it for a while, but I thought about it
for quite some time.
Speaker 3: I just honestly, for this category, I kind of went
through each team and just ranked who I thought the
best player on that team. Was with the wimby U
SGA thing kind of flipping and just like if it
just power ranked almost so it's like I think, I
I think, as I'm looking at the sheet, our best
players are both seven? Did I do I need to
refresh the sheet first?
Speaker 2: I look at the Oh, I'm looking at the Burn.
I'm sorry, I'm looking at the burn lottery gods. So
I apologize, but we both put seven.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just thought Jalen Johnson was the seventh best player, uh,
you know, of of the guys on the list, which
is interesting because we both have bam out of Bio
just to spoil it ranked lower, which I don't know
who i'd take today. But the youth factor I think
makes Johnson, well, yeah, he's not to me.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm always going to lean towards the person who can
generate more offense.
Speaker 1: And that's just jaaling.
Speaker 2: The way Jalen Johnson plays is not the same way
as bam Adebio plays.
Speaker 3: Right there, I think if you're going from the perspective
of this guy can be the best player on a
championship team, there's three or four of those guys in
this whole exercise Johnson is not one of them, but
like he is, Like you're saying, if he's your best player,
you can be a very good team. I think. I
think if you project forward, if he improves anymore, which
is possible given what he's done. So yeah, they so
just to they add a sixty three. They just narrowly.
The Hawks did narrowly beat the thunder here. And then
we jump a little bit with the next team.
Speaker 1: Who do we have at number eleven.
Speaker 3: Mine and yours The Golden State Warriors here. Uh, they
have a commerce score of seventy one, so quite a
bit higher here. I think we've kind of exited the
real bottom tier. There's a couple categories that are doing
a lot of work here for the Warriors with their
high scores, which are franchise competency. They've been very prominent
for a very long time, so everybody's aware of their missteps.
There have been a few. They've had a lot to
do with drafting of young players that did not develop
or fit otherwise though, like they've made some great free
agent signings. They've developed, I mean years ago, they developed
a core that won a lot of titles. They've won
some trades really handily, like the Wigans trade where they
also got a first rounder for D'Angelo Rutt, Like yeah,
and then getting off a Pool's contract. You can knock
them for signing that, but they gave that away and
just you know that first rounder is the fake first
rounder basically that Washington has that Actually now does Dallas
have that one? Yeah? That was the Anthony Davis one
got rerouted. The other score the other category, they score
highly in his ethical competitive spirit, like that's just because
they've had one really abysmal year and that's when Steph
Curry played five games and what are you gonna do Otherwise?
They've been highly competitive because they're trying to If anything,
you could knock them for trying to be like, I
don't know, too competitive sometimes when maybe some other ways
of thinking would have suggested they should have blown it
up a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: But they did tank their heart out for the Harrison
Barnes right.
Speaker 3: Which started this whole deal. I mean in some way
they scored their playoffs drought obviously is there, Yeah, they're not,
they're and then what else? What else is notable here?
Anything stick out to you that hired?
Speaker 2: Do you think that we so you went the fourteen
on the ethical competitive spear, which is the second best
score you could give.
Speaker 1: I struggled with it because they.
Speaker 2: Did have the Harrison Barnes tanking year and then it's
the James Wiseman year was very clearly. I know that
the injuries factored into that, but it was just like, Okay,
now we have multiple occasions within kind of the same window.
I didn't know where to put them there, and I
also didn't know where the front office confidency was interesting
because they've hit on a lot of the on the
margins free agency moves.
Speaker 1: When you look at the.
Speaker 2: Anthey Melton twice, Gary Payton and the junior how many
Gary payt in the second how many times?
Speaker 3: Ye? But and then you hit on later draft like
late second rounders. They've had good success with like that
kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: The stuff that I struggled with there was they clearly
botched the coaminga thing to virtually no end. And then
also what I also, I don't know if this was
it ultimate didn't factor in too much, but James Wiseman
was the wrong pick. I'm trying to think in that draft,
in that range though, they just let's just say they
just taken LaMelo ball. How much different are are they today?
I guess it's impossible to kind of figure it out.
But that's a that's an interesting what if for me, because.
Speaker 1: He's dealt with a ton of injuries.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if he feels like the type of player,
would they have moved on from him more quickly than
James Wiseman because he didn't technically fill a positional need.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in the wake of the cominga stuff,
it's pretty easy. I mean, it's pretty easy to imagine
Steve Kerr just being like, this guy does not play
the type of basketball that I want to play, Like
that's just right, like it the the the unseeriousness of
LaMelo you can imagine really making it so he does
not get anything close to the runway he's got in
Charlotte like that just I think that's a pretty safe assumption.
But yeah, they've watched a couple of picks. I do
think so. For me, the reason the competitive like ethical
competitive spirit score so high is because the Barnes thing
is so long ago that it's almost just like it's
just right, it's way back there. And then the shut
it down season comes after the whole team just explodes
after that in the twenty nineteen finals, like Thompson's out,
Draymond's banged up, he plays barely. The next season, Steph
gets hurt right away, Durant's gone. You get it. You
get a down year when you've run yourself into the
ground with three you know what?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Four? How many? Why can't I remember how many finals
strips in a row they made? You know they played
the Cavs four times in a row? I remember that.
Speaker 2: Man, that was a wild time. Considering where we are
now with a straight different champion.
Speaker 3: That was the death of parody. So I don't know
what else needs to be said about them. They should
not get the number one pick, but they deserve it
more than a few teams.
Speaker 2: Man, are they Well wait, well, no, I think we've
been What would be the what would be the team
that would incite the most conspiracy theories should they win
the number one pick?
Speaker 3: I mean the Thunder Although, like personally I was thinking
about this the other day, if the Thunder got it,
I would be excited because it's like, man, now we
just have a giant to slay. How much more fun
is that? That's a good question. What do you think
The answer.
Speaker 2: Is, I think people would be most people be most
outraged if it's the Thunder. But I think could you
ever picture as far as conspiracy theories go, and I
don't mean to lend them create most of them credence,
Why would the NBA skew think so heavily in favor
of the Thunder of all team, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Or the Spurs, which is another nominee for this. If
the Spurs get the number one pick, everybody would be like.
Speaker 1: Well, no, that would that would bring out all They're
just so dead.
Speaker 2: They want Wemby on. They don't want an American player
being the face of the league. They're doing the Spurs
the number one pick to continue propping up Wemby.
Speaker 3: I don't think he needs propping up. Uh yeah. It
would have to be a good team Dallas, I don't.
I think everybody would be like, what's happening? You could?
You could concoct some pretty weird conspiracy theories. If Dallas
got the number one pick.
Speaker 2: I think the Dubs would be in the top three
getting angry. They'd be up there checking in Grant at
number ten. The Memphis Grizzlies were a Karna score of
seventy two, just barely edging out the Golden State Warriors.
Were you surprised where they finished when you looked at
how everything we went through?
Speaker 3: Everything this feels about right? I guess it depends on
how you view or what you view as the causes
for the dissolution of that. This team now that won
fifty plus games a couple of years in a row
and is now just trading away everybody but the main
problem has kind of stuck with the main problem still.
I guess the fact that they're down here suggests that
we both think a lot of the damage is pretty
self inflicted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's tough. We both had them.
Speaker 2: Let me make sure, because I've been reading the columns
very poorly in our spreadsheet. We both have them at
a four on the franchise competency scale, which is semi
wild to think about because of how well they have drafted.
But it's just the stuff that they've done with trades,
using draft picks to get off money, never making the
actual big move to optimize or augment a core that
they claimed was good enough. And then I also I
don't expect teams to divulge their innermost secrets. But when
you've kind of misled your fan base. And the one
that I can't get over because it was such a
bald faced lie was the Desmond Bane trade not signaling
that this team was about to start over.
Speaker 1: That was a big fu to.
Speaker 2: The fan base, and so I ding them hard for that,
and quite frankly karmically speaking, they're lucky they're not lower
in that category.
Speaker 3: It's far yes, I think too. The low scores there,
we both had them very low. To me, feels like
you're the front office in management and ownership is at
least partially responsible for, like not saying enabling, but at
least like putting up with the jaw stuff for as
long as they did, to the point where his value
just fell up heart I think, and again that's probably
mostly just on the player, because he's also just gotten
worse at basketball, uh in the last couple of years.
But I think losing Dylan Brooks seems like the whove
them out the door.
Speaker 2: And then it was pretty clear that you didors well.
Speaker 3: I would have done it. I would have done it
for that reason, but pretty clear that that team needed
like more veteran leadership and more like let's keep the
young guys in line kind of presences. It just kind
of letting things get out of control. I feel like
I feel like we're both kind of knocking them for that.
And then just transactionally, like you said, there's there's some
real mistakes. The Marcus Smart trade tree just is never
going to be like excusable.
Speaker 2: But even just stupid things like having to give up
seconds to get off the Zaire Williams contract. I just
don't and that, by the way, that was a miss
to trade up and get Zaire Williams in the first place,
too true.
Speaker 3: Forgot about that they do. Let's see, so let's what's
another standout category here? Well, we gave this.
Speaker 2: Tough, but they finished high. I think we both had
them twelve or thirteen.
Speaker 3: How bad they do?
Speaker 2: They need a best player, and it's it's clear they
don't want Ja Moran anymore, and it clearly can't be
John Moran anymore. And I think I don't know if
this comes as a source of consolation, but if you're
a Grizzlies fan, if they're drafting, we have them tenth
in mccarmick rankings, they'll find value for the most part.
Speaker 1: Wherever they are in the draft.
Speaker 2: You just have to wonder how long before they, you know,
use him to salary dump someone else if they gave
it back, Like that's the that's the main concern with
this team.
Speaker 1: But it's if they were open let's just.
Speaker 2: Say in the vacuum they were open to we're not
gonna move John Moran, like we're gonna try and salvage this.
Speaker 1: Would you have lowered them on that scale at all?
Speaker 3: No, because I don't think he can be that anymore
just a post Those are both factors for sure. A
third factor that I didn't really consider in this that
I'm just thinking of now as like Memphis to a
greater extent than most of these teams really does need
to depend on the draft to get this guy, as
opposed to like I'm trying to like Miami, just as
a contrast, like, yeah, if they don't get them in
the draft, decent chance that you know, they'll be on
the list for the next superstar that is about to
hit free agency or whatever. There's other ways for some
teams to get this guy. The Grizzlies, like some teams
here but not all, probably need a draft them. So
maybe the need is even greater for a best player
for them, but we we rated them high there, so
were you.
Speaker 2: This was the team though that I was wondering where
they were. I had no idea where I was going
to actually put them. The fact that they finished here
feels brutal, but also kind of makes sense when you talk, Yeah,
who comes.
Speaker 1: In at number ninet?
Speaker 3: All right, we got the Kings here, and so just
to get out ahead of it, given like fan base
pain and and like just needing a turn the page thing,
and boy they're due for a break. They could there's
an argument that we should just the Kings just need this.
They need this more than Kings. Kings fans out deserve this,
which is why the year since the playoff series win
thing is a fifteen. Obviously they maxed it out. They
maxed it out. The plus seven twenty two years had
just the pain of this fan base. Maybe that should
have been its own score is just like how much
is the fan base hurting? And then they would have.
Speaker 2: Maxed that out too, So do you know why I
did it with the we the droughts? Well, and they
have a Karma score of seventy seven. And for anyone
who's keeping crack of this, like, so again, we're a
pretty close range with some of these teams. I just
felt that would have been then we could have, I
guess done both. But if we're subjective of then were
we ranking fan bases?
Speaker 1: And that gets into a hole.
Speaker 2: I don't like painting because there are times where I'm
mad at certain fan bases because they're spamming the comments
of our videos with stupid shit. But it's I don't
like painting fan bases with a broad brush negatively when
it goes to just how much shit has this organization
put the entire fan base through. I don't think there's
an argument for any fan base to be placed over
the Kings on that.
Speaker 3: Yes, and relatedly, their franchise competency was the easiest one.
I think either of us gave out because this is
the model franchise for comprecious decisions student like just the
hiring firing cycle of coaches in GMS, bad drafting, bad signings,
bad trades like you name it. This franchise excels in
the race to the bottom in all of those transactional categories.
Uh like could had we been able to go negative,
I think we both would have happily. You know, just
dropped some negative fourteens on this and that really sank
their chances of being higher because you can't get a
pair of ones and do much better in the carmon
grankings and like, this is the trade off, right. The
fan base deserves it and needs it because ownership and
management has been so singularly bad. Uh. There, they're two
related categories, so maybe they almost cancel each other out.
I don't know if there's anything else notable here you
wanted to hit. It's just that can't reward. You can't
reward this ownership with the number one pick. You didn't.
You haven't. Does you don't deserve it? You don't.
Speaker 1: They'll mess it up too.
Speaker 3: It doesn't the deepest draft with six guys that are
franchise superstars.
Speaker 2: They've already proven they'll mess it up when you look
at how their process behind draft and Mark I don't
want to bring up, but the process behind drafting Marvin
Bagley was just awful. A lot of the reasons that
came and nothing changes, which is why the VEC around
ADIVA is the common denominator. But that that's what's tough,
is so how much blame do you put? We saw
that piece on ESPN about the vision Scott Perry hasster
this roster, okay cool, look at what you did over
the offseason and then had to undo with the trade deadline.
None of this makes sense. And the fact that they're
here and they still finish so high on the needs
the best player scale, it's like they have nothing basically
to show for any of this pain except for that
remember that year, the light the beam year pushed the
Warriors to seven games, and we thought this organization turned
a corner and it.
Speaker 3: Was just boom fire the coach, Yeah, boom, trade your
best player, like just just one after the other. They
can't they can't have nice things. They can't have one
of which is a number one pick.
Speaker 1: You know what team can have nice things?
Speaker 2: They come in a number eight, the Utah Jazz with
a Karma score of seventy eight, just beating out Grant's
favorite team, the Sacramento Kings. This this team to spoiler alert.
We mentioned them before when it came to Shenanigans. They
did not finish very high in ethical competitive spirit.
Speaker 1: I had them into two. You gave them a one,
so we're same range.
Speaker 2: But they've gamed the system basically, as much as any team.
Speaker 1: I think what you could say is there have been rosters.
Speaker 2: When you look at Brooklyn and Washington, they've just started
out bad and stripped their rosters down to the studs
like before the season ever started. The Jazz have always
felt as if they have too much talent left over
from some of their teardowns and the big one for them.
But this contributes to franchise competency. By the way, is
when you got peak value for Rudy gobarreon Donovan Mitchell,
we might never see trades like that ever again, Like
even the Desmond Bane trade.
Speaker 1: Look at all those picks.
Speaker 2: The Jazz got an All Star, borderline All NBA player
in addition to all.
Speaker 1: Of those picks.
Speaker 2: But that also kind of fueled why they've had the
tank so much, because they were just better. Like the
crown jewel of that trade was not supposed to be
lowry marketing, right, it turned into larry market in.
Speaker 1: So there's like an interesting push and pull there.
Speaker 2: But I would argue I put them at when it
came to franchise competency. I had them at thirteen. You
had them at nine, which I thought was fascinating.
Speaker 3: That feels low to me, especially since I also apparently
have the heat at nine that's probably supposed to be
a ten.
Speaker 1: You didn't even need to break the tie. You would
have broken it.
Speaker 3: Is that the reason we accidentally had a TI either, Yeah,
I can't count to the ten. I think some of
it is, well, we're kind of talking about the same thing.
So I'm dinging them a little bit for for having
to pivot and egregiously tank and get their one in
Competitive Spirit ethical competitive Spirit, because they just sort of
like went halfway with you know, like they had to steer,
they had a change course in ways that like even
prior to the season, I feel like we were talking
about a couple of the times like I think this
team might be too good to be at the very
very bottom, Like what are they going to do? Like
how do they how long will they benchmark it? In four?
Like which kept happening, you know, so I think just
I guess half measure is not quite the right word,
but you kind of understand what I'm saying, Like they
they haven't quite I don't know, executed the plan which
we're giving them ones and twos for in the Ethicalspeive
Competitive Spirit categories perfectly and they've gotten in their own way,
and I think possibly cost themselves when Bin Yama or
remember before that draft, like this is the year for
them to really tank and they were too good and
they did it again. So that's the explanation for that score,
which feels a point or two low. Probably they should
be a little higher because of the trades that they've
so handily won. I also think they haven't drafted great
generally speaking. I don't know how much of that is,
Like maybe Taylor Hendrix has a very different career without
the injury and he's still on the team.
Speaker 1: But they're like Georgia at sixteen.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that was that finally happened this year. There
have been some other ones that trying. Now we got
to run through some of their picks.
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, who else.
Speaker 3: Cody Williams is looming pretty large here.
Speaker 1: But maybe he's l maybe he's a late bloomer, like
he already looks.
Speaker 3: Like Yeah, they feel like they're in about the right
spot though because of the egregious tanking. I feel like
they just can't be much higher. Hit your mic.
Speaker 2: We both had them I think twelve when it came
to the burned by the lottery gods, because they've drafted
in the top five ones despite all their tanking measures
and just you know, Okay, Taylor Hendrix, I really liked him.
I said he was going to be better than Jaron
Jackson Junior, who is now ironically on this team. And
like to draft, what were they outside of they had ten?
Speaker 1: Nine?
Speaker 2: What of the picks that they've had since that trade,
it's been nine and ten. Yeah, and so the only
the one top five pick. And I think Ace Bailey
is going to be really good and is already showing
a ton of encouraging signs. How did you They ended
up finishing pretty low? But were they one of the
more fascinating teams to say? How badly do they need
a best player? Because I think there's an argument to
say none of the players that they have right now
might be the ideal best player if you're trying to
build a contender in the West, but you just have
so many fringe like R three options that it's a
they'll approximate enough value there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like marknen is an All NBA caliber guy, given
you know, just choose a random year, he's going to
be in the conversation if he plays enough Georgia's ascent.
I think Ace Bailey probably not a super duper star,
but it's way too early to shut that door. Like
they they've got enough. Kessler's a plus starting center, assuming
they keep him in restrictive free agency, Like like, yeah,
it's a volume thing. They've got enough cracks at it
to where like they're maybe that's the next NBA trend.
We don't need a top ten player. We just we're
gonna stack as many top fifty players as possible or
some or you need a different type of best player
like Haliburton on the Pacers type of thing where it's like, oh, look, look,
look what happened here. You know, you don't doesn't need
to be the six eight do it all wing necessarily,
you know that kind.
Speaker 1: Of thing, coming in at number seven.
Speaker 2: Grand the Miami Heat, who you broke we tie breakers?
Speaker 1: We broke them together.
Speaker 2: But apparently wouldn't have needed to have broken these if
Grant could count to ten. So coming with a karma
score of seventy eight or seventy nine doesn't matter, doesn't
change anything. The Miami Heat, can you take us through
their karma? They're karmak vitals, sir.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the playoff drought not long, so they didn't
do anything spectacular there. They're kind of middle pack and
everything except for their ethical competitive spirit. They both you
have a fourteen here, I gave them a twelve, so
very high scores. They don't really tank.
Speaker 1: They're always the tank.
Speaker 3: I can't even I can't even remember they had an
what was the oh remember the season they started like
I can't remember now, like thirty one and fourteen and
then finished fourteen and thirty one or maybe it was
backwards like Deon Waiters was very much a part of
that year. I can't remember how long ago that was,
but that that's the last Like, wow, this team is
a mess situation that I can remember. They they're just
always trying to win. They they are always in the
mix for like big trade candidates, and they're always a
threat to sign. They just don't. I mean, part of
is because pat Riley's in his eighties and it's like
what are we were not on a ten year time
horizon here, folks, Like we're trying to be good now.
So they were pretty easy, like high score in that
category for me. Elsewhere nothing really stands out. We've got
a lot of eights and nine's and sevens, kind of
like some high mid pack stuff here. Anything jump out
as surprising to you about their their Karmack scores.
Speaker 2: I believe that going into this, if it were a
year or two ago, I would have just assumed that
the heat would have been incredibly high on the franchise
competency scale. And while they were in the top half
for both of us, it was just barely because everything
that you kind of outlined is also sort of part
of the problem, not like waiting and waiting and biting
your time for that next big name, whether and it
was before they even traded Jimmy Butler. It's kind of
prevented them from like actually rebuilding and maybe angling for
something more than what if we just had this outside
chance of making the NBA finals because of playoff Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 1: But then I don't know how to judge that against
but like, you did make it to the.
Speaker 2: Finals on multiple occasions, so maybe there's merit to that approach.
But they've lost some of their luster there, especially when
you have their I don't know if you've caught enough
of the postgame stuff from Eric's Boelstra.
Speaker 1: This year and last year.
Speaker 2: He I feel like the analog is Steve Current Jonathan
Minga Eric Spoliser clearly doesn't want Khalil War on this team,
and so like you kind of have the fact that, like,
what's the disconnect going on here? But they do buy
in large draft well, or they sign these guys to
where it's just like we like them, where they've draft
these guys like oh, Pelle Larsen, like we really like him,
even getting Tyler Hero, he's become a pariah ever since
he signed his extension. He's been banged up this year,
but that was great value where they selected him. They
were I thought that would be harder to rank, but
when I went into this, it was just No, I
don't think they belong to be higher in the franchise
competency scale.
Speaker 1: It just feels as if.
Speaker 2: Yeh, their approach is a little I don't know if
it's outmoded, but there's there's not as much upside to
what feels like their way of thinking as there used
to be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's fair. As I look at it now,
I think there's and it's a loaded word, especially for
this franchise, but like their culture does seem like Pella
Larson's a real player, and like Haime Haakas, they get
the best out of a limited guy there. And they
do seem to have an infrastructure, and that's partly just
because Spolster's been there for a thousand years and the
management structure hasn't really changed, where like it's a little
spursy where it's it's just like, you know, the wheels
are never falling off. It's just this is that they're
gonna be functional. There's you know, Jimmy. The Jimmy Butler
thing does stand out as like that was a mess,
but like that's really just Jimmy Butler, I think more
than anything. And you sign up for that when you
bring him on board and don't extend him basically, which yeah,
probably right decision, uh turns out so uh, I think
I think I think it feels about right, even though
I do if I had, if I had to move
him one way or the other, I'd have some higher
scores and franchise competency. Probably.
Speaker 2: Let's go on to I was honestly surprised this team
finished as high as they did, but checking in at
number six, the Chicago Bulls anything stand out. So let
me go through what I think stood out the most
of me here is that I didn't know how they
obviously were gonna score highly and how bad they do
they need a best player unless you really don't get
Josh Giddy or Modest Bozellis or maybe Rob Dillingham or
Jade and Ivy. I didn't know what to do with
their ethical competitive spirit, and I ultimately think that you
went the right way putting them at six, which again
is very low. I put them at nine, which is
middle of the pack. Surprise surprise is basically where they ranked,
Like that's where they are.
Speaker 1: In the standings year a year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know how. I feel like I rewarded
them for it. But at the same time, they've tried
to They're sort of just like the Kings of the
East to where they were, they've been trying to be
I guess the Kings were trying to be good. So
there's more honor in what the Kings were doing conceptually,
even though the execution was poor. The Bulls, I guess,
seemed like they were dead set on being in the
bottom of the middle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what we've knocked them for forever, and
that's why they got a two from you and a
three from me in franchise committency because they just like
didn't prioritize the right things they I mean, the fact
that they and the Kings have had so much overlap
personnel wise is like not a coincidence. They the players
that these franchises value, that these ownership and management structures value,
are not winning players, so they've swapped a few of
those over the years. The trick though, like the ethical
competitive spirit like they have. I don't know what to
do with that. They have tried to win, but like
not enough, so like they haven't tanked, and we ding
them for not tanking, but we do that like while
at the same time dinging them for not going for it.
So it's kind of like, don't I don't know. That
was a difficult category to rank. The only thing, the
very obvious was they do need a best player very
very badly. They got fourteens from us, the second highest
score you could get in that category.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also they haven't had ever since I
mean the Derreck Rose draft, but that's not a factor.
And then winning that lottery I was really factor here. Yeah,
they haven't had like a ton of draft lottery success.
I mean, now going back to franchise competency, I supported.
I want to make this clear drafting Patrick Williams at
number four, that was clearly just a huge miss by
them in that draft, but it's not they haven't been
in part because of where they're aiming to be in
the standings, they haven't really been in a position to
be in these awesome lottery spots, and so that also
inflated their score. They also had the I think it
was the third highest bump from like the playoff series drought,
so it's like they their their playoff drought really isn't
that long, but actually winning an entire series when you
factor in this season because if they're in the lottery,
that's why it'll extended to eleven years.
Speaker 1: M M.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That the Williams thing that the picks defensible, but
the good money after bad on that contract is just
another reason that the franchise competency is is hurting.
Speaker 2: Here and how they have they drafted just all Likezellis.
Speaker 3: Bozelli's is fine for that probably pretty good bet better
than you'd expect value for that draft slot, I guess.
I mean Kobe White, who's not there anymore, and you
didn't really get anything for him. So that's the thing.
Some of their better draft picks are not there. So
so that's that's an issue.
Speaker 2: We don't know enough about Uh, he's injured and hadn't
really played.
Speaker 1: We played six minute.
Speaker 2: It's this season, Mike God Noah sang yay, we don't
know enough about him. Dale and Terry at eighteen in
twenty twenty two. I mean, the sheer number of times
they haven't had their first round pick for a franchise
that hasn't won a playoff series eleven years, going back
to the Boots.
Speaker 3: Trade, right, that's the key. That's the key there.
Speaker 2: Wendell Carter Junior was a good pick in twenty eighteen. Yeah,
I was in the bag forgib Well. They didn't keep him,
but I was in the bag for Justin Patten. If
you care, Denzel Valentine at the end of the lottery
in twenty sixteen, you remember that one.
Speaker 3: I'm sure I like that one at the time.
Speaker 2: I do you want to take a who?
Speaker 1: We're in the top five now?
Speaker 2: So the Bulls were the first Karmak score in the
eighties with an eighty one.
Speaker 1: Who is a number five number? Yeah, number five grand.
Speaker 3: Sorry. The Porland Trailblazers edged them out by a single
point with a Karma score of eighty two. Uh, this
is we're just kind of midpacky across the board here.
No score lower than a five, no score higher than
a ten. I guess the standout category here is ethical
competitive spirit. We both gave them tens. The Blazers haven't
really tanked. It's tricky because like they have had some
meaningless stretch runs, you know, I for the billion times,
Like remember when Anthony Simons was crazy down the stretch
of all those meaningless games. Everybody went there was a
few instances of that, but I can't remember. Or they've
tanked a little bit, but it hasn't been egregious to
the point where it's light tanking.
Speaker 1: Still light tanking.
Speaker 3: It brushed up against tanking. I think really like over
the last couple of years, specifically, like the Avdia trade
was they gave up the pick in that trade, so
they have, you know, kind of prioritized more present success.
I think maybe we've questioned that a few times, but
I'd say generally speaking, they're not up to too many
shenanigans other than that franchise competency nine for you, ten
for me out of fifteen. Again pretty solid, that's solid.
Speaker 2: There's a case for them to be lower when you
look at how long they waited on the Dame situation
or kind of that's true.
Speaker 1: We did ding the Grizzlies for this.
Speaker 2: The Blazers were also kind of the czars of half
measures too, where it's oh, we've got Robert Covington. It
wasn't we ever went after like the big name. It's
it's feeling they've taken bigger swings to me when you
look at Danny Avida and even Drew Holliday than they
ever did when like Dames first go around there. But
I don't like, I don't know how much more to
have penalized them for that.
Speaker 3: No, I do think this is in a category. But like,
this is a team that if they did get the
number one pick, I would be here for it because
we love Danny Avdya, we like some of their other
young guys. I do think there's a decent case to
be made. They still need a best player. You gave
them an eight there, I gave them an eleven. I
think like we we love Avidya. We're not totally sure
that should be your very very best player, because.
Speaker 2: I think if you're gonna say to be the best
player entrenched as that you're looking at multiple All NBA teams,
and Kenny, I don't want to say he's going to
be a one off because he would be in the
All ANBA discussion even if some of these, even if
a Jannis, even if it looked like a Jokic was
going Yokic is still eligible right now. But you know
what I'm saying, But is this like how regularly is
he gonna be in the All NBA discussion. We don't
really know because he's having that lowry market and type
mid career breakout.
Speaker 1: But to that.
Speaker 2: Point, I don't know what's And Shane Shump's been a
lot better this year.
Speaker 1: We've seen very little of Scoot.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to make of their drafting track
record Donovanuay and I was completely wrong on Tomaniy Kamara.
They didn't draft, they got him in the trade. I
think what really nudges up their franchise competency score. I'm
still convinced that Jan Hanson is gonna be good. And
I don't know if you saw, but he said he
wanted to kiss Nicole Kich at All Stars.
Speaker 1: So he's future superstar in my book.
Speaker 2: So, but the trades that they've made, I think a
lot of them, like the Damian Lillard trade in hindsight,
oh my god, yeah two. Some of the other moves
bumped up for me their ethical competitive spirit ranking because
trading for Denni Avdia when they were still not trying.
Speaker 1: To necessarily be good.
Speaker 2: And then the Drew Holliday you talk about being not
that we hated that trade, but it was sort of
so they traded for Drew Holliday and his contract and
didn't really didn't get assets for that. Oh, this year,
Draw Holiday hasn't played like in a bunch of body.
He played in twenty seven games. We're recording this, but
he's shooting well from three. I was looking the other day,
Grant so true usage, which incorporates you know this passing,
uh passing and turnovers and scoring possessions. His jump in
true usage from last year to this year is the
single biggest in the.
Speaker 1: NBA ge minutes.
Speaker 3: It's insane.
Speaker 2: And also the Blazers have a bout a v average
offense and that's a big deal for this team. When
Drew Holidays on the floor without Denniaffia, this is just
like this team is.
Speaker 1: You're right, this would be the karmakle.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't be the team to get the number one
pick speak, but they would be one.
Speaker 1: Of the most if you got the number one pick.
The teams that like, oh they're as.
Speaker 2: Tract yep, that would be oh wow, like this is
what are they ready to do as early as next season?
Speaker 3: M I agree, all right, we're moving up big jonp.
Speaker 2: Number four the Washington Wizards eighty seven Karma scale, so
we were almost in the nineties here. They're tough because
I struggled with them on so many levels franchise competency.
If you go back far enough, they're not going to
rank very highly. But this front office has done and
buying large a good job of conveying the right message
and doing the right things. But you have to throw in,
all right, the Trey Young and Anthony Davis trades opportunistically
looking at the cost, they gave up not a ton,
but what is that signal?
Speaker 1: So I grappled with that.
Speaker 2: I also grappled with and I ultimately put them pretty
high on how badly do they need a best player?
Unless you believe that it's Alex Sar, Anthony Davis or
Trey Young. I don't and I can't in my heart
of hearts, I can't believe that they expect Anthony Davis
or Trey Young.
Speaker 1: To be that.
Speaker 3: I mean they will be next year. One of those
two will will those those are there. One two's Alex
Sar is not close to being as good as either
of the guys healthy. But yeah, like that, they're not
really They're not really on the team, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2: So and that, and then it's you run out of it.
So if we're not factoring in or you, we do
need to factor in the veterans. But it's just if
it's not Sar, I don't think it's any I love
Keishawn George, but it's not anybody. It can't be anybody
at this point. It's not gonna be Bala Kulabali. That's
not Trey Johnson's game. It's not gonna be bub Carrington.
That was another category I struggled with for them. Now
the ethical competitive spirit thing. Is there more honor in
just being bad off rip because you've assembled your roster
that way over the offseason and you're so bad that
you don't need to bench any of your best players.
That's another element of this that I that I grappled with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I went, as I'm looking at it now,
I gave him a two. But you're right, like they've
just been kind of organically bad. I would say, like,
I think there were ways they could have performed better,
but they have not done quite the same level of,
you know, just findable stuff that that some other teams
have done. So I feel like I feel a little
bit of regret giving them that low of a score
there that said, like, well, here's a question, Oh boy,
if they assuming because I really enjoy this exercise, if
we do this next year, what where will your head
be if they extend Anthony Davis and or keep Trey Young?
Like what? Because what does that mean? Are we just bullsing? Now?
Speaker 2: Is that is that they don't trust their draft scouting department?
I guess I don't know what would be the or
ted Leonsis is done with this multi year being bad thing.
Speaker 3: Right even though it didn't yield what multi multiple years
of being bad should have yielded in theory, and and
maybe that's the jump off point too. They have the
highest burned by lottery God score of anybody in this exercise.
We both gave them fifteens. That's because they've had several
terrible seasons in a row and never landed number one,
and when they landed number two was in a terrible draft. Yeah. Uh,
like everybody like Star is a good pick at two
probably in that draft, but like, yeah, I mean that's
that was the wrong draft to get your your highest
pick in. So so they've had some bad luck on
that front.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do you, how would you?
Speaker 2: I guess that we have to see what the extension
terms would be for either Anthony Davis or Tree Young.
But I at this point, Trey Young situation is different
because he has that player option, But I don't know
what the deal would need to be to make me
feel comfortable giving another three guaranteed years to and it's
not gonna be, you know, three for one twenty. He's
not dood but so and I so based on the
reporting that A. Rich Paul and Anthony Davis had no
idea that Wizards were viable contender, it makes leaves me
believe that they have no intention of extending.
Speaker 1: Him this summer, which is he's the right movie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that is too. The only hesitation I
have is like, you didn't really give up anything to
get either of these guys, So it's like I.
Speaker 2: Might have been one for it's probably gonna be one
first round pick, and that one first round pick is
going to convey at number thirty.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we would have been much harder on them,
say in a franchise competency category, had they really had
to give up anything of consequence for either Young or Davis,
or if it was very clear that they viewed them
as like, these are our two cornerstones. Now we're going
to go as far as they take this, like, which
is why I asked about the extensions and keeping those
guys around, because because to me, there's a chance that
we look very unfavorably on them this time next year,
depending on what happens with those two veterans that they got.
It helps that they didn't give up anything that mattered
to get them. H Like, that's just one of those Okay, yeah,
we'll take them. We'll see what happens. We're not playing
for anything any.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm talking myself into them being too low somehow
at number four, but what else, how else do we
want rebuilds to go other than what the Wizards have done.
Is there have been the three or four years of
they haven't done anything to short circuit it. They've been
opportunistic at the trade deadline you look at taking on money.
Maybe they've never gotten that crown jewel of a draft
pick back, but they didn't have this front office regime,
took over a roster that didn't have a crown joe,
like the fact that they got off Bradley Beal when
they did, or that they weren't saddled with the turning
Bradley Beal on to C. J.
Speaker 1: McCollum was kind of a stroke of genius.
Speaker 2: And now you get to what I think we all
would agree somewhat is all right, the like three to
five year rebuilding life cycle is ideal or that should
be the median length. They're there and they took swings
without over mortgaging the future if you think they're the
wrong players, and that's totally fair to consider, Like what else,
what have the Wizards done that would go against what
we want to see in rebuild? I guess these trades
specifically speaking, would do that. But they haven't done anything
to actually impact the bottom line of performance.
Speaker 1: Yet either, I.
Speaker 3: Would say from a process perspective, they've kind of followed
the blueprint we like, and we've been broadly very positive
about about this whole thing that they've that they've engaged in,
basically post Bradley Beal, because it was such a departure,
like this was another Bulls type team that was like,
we'd love to be the seventh or eighth seed. That's
an awesome goal. Let's chase that every year. They they
cast that off and they did the right stuff. I
think maybe they don't rank higher because you can't point
to any really obviously good decision that they've made during
the process, you know, whether that's hitting on a draft pick,
whether that's like a genius signing.
Speaker 2: Or I don't that's I'm just trying to rationalize it's
Keshawn George is probably the closest they've come to this
with just an home I mean where where he was drafted.
Speaker 3: And sure sure, but but but that's like, all right,
so you got you may be your third or fourth
best player on a good team. You know, Like they
don't have any there's no master stroke by this front office.
There's no obvious, like you guys, have you guys, really
have you deserve it because you've you've done so well.
I think the main thing that says they deserve it
is just like they've been unlucky in the lottery in
the past few years.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that their larger body of work
is the master stroke to whereas they haven't tried to
accelerate or decelerate by like these stark margins where you're
really trying to fast track your way to the bottom
or to the top, and they haven't done that.
Speaker 1: I do think there's envy in doing that.
Speaker 2: Its just the yield on it is so hazy right
now that this would be the and based off what
they're doing that they decided Anthony Davis and Trey Young
was better than cap Space this summer, which objectively speaking,
would you have preferred if if if the edict was
they have to get a lot better and be relevant
next year, would you have preferred what they did at
the trade the line or them spending like ninety million
dollars one hundred million dollars in for agency.
Speaker 3: I don't think you're getting anywhere close to the upside
of Davis and Young. If you're spending cap space in
free agency to get it, like I don't. There's no way.
I do think this is a good transition point because
the next team, which is only three Karma points ahead
of Washington, is very very similar. We're talking about the
Brooklyn Nets, except they need a best player much worse. So, really,
if I wonder if the Wizards don't have Davis and Young,
if actually the Wizards are just ahead of the Nets
because the Nets both got fifteens from each of us,
because they just don't have anybody that you look at
and say, I can even squint and imagine him being
an All star, like who even is that guy?
Speaker 1: Like Nicholas Claxton.
Speaker 2: Stand Still playmaking doesn't really get your juices flowing hand
offs this year, Grant, come on.
Speaker 3: So that's the difference. Because so just for perspective, for
how badly do they need a best play The Wizard's
got an eleven from you and a nine for me,
and then again the fifteen's the matching fifteen's swap those
or even narrow the gap, and then the Wizards are
just third and the Nets or fourth. So this is
very much a statement on Brooklyn's need to get a
guy in the draft that they can build around because
they just they have maybe some theoretical complimentary pieces and
all these guys that's you know, a we care about
passing and being connective and all that kind of stuff.
They just don't have the guy. So so that's that's
that's the whole reason they're here. That's why they're this high.
Speaker 2: We both had them at a fourteen and burned by
the lottery gods yep too, which is is that when
you kind of just look at is that too high
now that I'm like kind of, well, the fact.
Speaker 3: That they don't have the guy is indicative of they
haven't picked high enough to get him. Uh, you know,
they they had a now I was gonna.
Speaker 2: Their own design because of other transactions that they've made
and also just the we you were lower on them
I think when it came to franchise competency than I was.
But a lot of the reason that they're in this
rebuild at all is because after they went through what
we all thought was a master stroke rebuild, yep, they
short circuited it for Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant and then
that whole thing and then James Harden's there, DeAndre Jordan's there,
and they've made missed up. But now it feels like
they rebounded not I'm wondering if I don't karmically speaking,
they might be too high.
Speaker 3: That they might be too high if you go back
and think about the we're going to spend our double
maxes on Kde and Kyrie, and we're gonna fast track
the super team. Steve Nash is going to be our coach.
Remember that for a second. Like they they definitely if
you go back farther, I think franchise competency probably has
to take a hit. I'll admit that I mostly thought
about mostly not entirely, just like the Jordi Fernandez era,
I guess, which is very short. But like once this
rebuild started, which is post those vets, that's kind no
more what I looked at. But yeah, you could really
ding them if you wanted to, like just have a
broader window.
Speaker 2: But you're considering Here's the thing is they they weren't
very high in the fan base pain because their drought
and their their series drought are not very long, and
we did not have them high in ethical competitive spirit,
and so it's even if you lower them and burned
by lottery gods, there's still a chance that they're gonna
end They're gonna end up in the top five, regardless
because of mostly how badly they need a best I
don't is there a team that needs a best player
on their Like? Who would be if you had to
make a case for a team over the nets that
needs the best player?
Speaker 1: Who is it Chicago?
Speaker 3: Well, by definition, it's Chicago in our ranking because we
both gave them a fourteen and that. But I'm trying
there might be a non lottery I mean probably not,
even if you're I'm trying to think of like playing
teams that aren't considered here that do you. I mean,
here's a spicy one Clippers when they lose Kawhi, that's.
Speaker 1: A good one.
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking of that. I'm just asking questions. Do
the Toronto Raptors have him?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's way easier to look at Scottie Barnes
and say that's that's a sufficient best player than it
is to look at Nick Claxton. Uh so, Michael Porter sir?
Oh oh? Well, is Porter Junior might be having a
better year than Scott Probably not. But it's a conversation good,
good retort. We forgot about MPJ not trading MPG to me.
Uh hurts the franchise competency a little bit.
Speaker 2: Well's I would agree, because you don't want the Nets
to be too married to their twenty twenty seven draft
obligation of Houston. But at the same time, what how
much less are they gonna get for him the whole Oh,
they would have gotten two playoff runs versus one. I
think it matters, but it's also overstated. Sure, I don't
think the office room are gonna get much worse. And also,
if you have cap space and Michael Porter and then
you get a really high pick, maybe they are deciding
that this isn't gonna last very long and so we're
gonna go and like Michael Porter Junior just fits alongside
anybody will be on an expiring contract.
Speaker 1: That's a TBD for me. I'd have to see what
the best offer.
Speaker 2: If they were sitting there saying, well, we need the
Desmond Bain package for Michael Porter Junior and then it's
no son, then I'd have questions. I do not have
questions about this team. Who comes in at number two,
the Indiana Pacers with a Karma.
Speaker 1: Score of ninety one grand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're I'm not surprised at all that they ended
up here. They do not get a bump, but surprise, surprise,
their playoff drought hasn't.
Speaker 3: Been They were in the finals eight months ago. Pretty good.
Speaker 2: They they were most stand out for you or no
for me. When it came to ethical competitive spirit, this
team doesn't. You could say right now they got fined
for tanking, which is just absolute bs because it was
sort of an isolated incident by their standards, or it
only just started, and it's this this player participation criteria,
so it's not opaque, but it's so teams like the
Wizards you can't get fined because it doesn't matter who
they bench. But in the Pacers case, it's just it's
so inequal, doesn't make sense. But this team doesn't tank.
They didn't even Herb Simon didn't even want to give
DeAndre like an offer sheet restricted free agency because he
thought it was unfair to the Suns, Like he'd rather
work out a side in trade and like compensate the
team for the ethicality. In Indiana, the Hoops, they're just
so ethical and so pure.
Speaker 3: They just try to be the best that they can
be year to year until this year when it's like
this is clearly the right thing to be doing. Like
also just to very high score is ethical, competitive spirit,
franchise competency, just like I don't know the fact that
they traded to get their twenty twenty six first rounder
back during the finals last year, and now we're in
all where it's likely is anyone's to be number one?
Speaker 2: Like conspiracy theorists here, you could argue, did they know
there was a high risk of what was going on
with Tyres Haliburton, that's why they made it. But even
if that's the case, that was incredible. And now the
one thing I did I gave we both gave him fourteens.
Speaker 1: You said right in franchise competency.
Speaker 2: They I did not love the way they handled the
Miles Turner situation. But ultimately, how much can you knock
their lack of commitment to him over the years when
they still reached the NBA finals and only after Tyres
Haliburton's injury did they kind of send him on his
way and didn't receive compensation for him. That matters, But
it's also just I mean, holding got onto him was
the right call, Like that helped them live a lot
of what they did offensively and even defensively for them.
Speaker 3: And you could argue they they got out at the
right time because he just hasn't been as good and
they have a better player in the pipeline now in Zubats,
which again to go to competitive spirit, they give up
two future first to go get a guy who won't
tell me the Yeah, it just they there's a lot
to like here, So let's maybe talk about what else
stands out here. I mean, how badly did they need
the best player Tyres Haliburton. Well, maybe there's a bit
of an asterisk here if he's not one hundred percent,
but but like you're not until he proves that he's
not that same guy, you don't need a best player
because he is. He took him to the finals, took
him the game seven of the finals, and they might
have won it if he hadn't gotten hurt. That's the
definition of the best player.
Speaker 2: However, here's a take that Moret said to me, and
I called him insane on one of the podcasts we did,
that if he had the number one pick, or even
the number two pick, that he would consider reorienting the
pacers this is before the Zubach trade, he would consider
reorienting the Pacers around that pick rather than Tyre's Haliburton
because of the Achilles injury.
Speaker 3: To me, that is an endorsement of how great Halburton
is because you don't you can orient around someone else
and he can still be just as valuable on that
same team. Because what is he like other than defense?
He's a great spot up shoot, Like he will be
great as a secondary creator if you need him to
do that, Like I just don't.
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, he deserves that.
Speaker 2: My point was, don't you think that he has earned
the chance to come back before you make that decision? Uh?
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I I would.
Speaker 3: I would not reorient to use the term around somebody else,
especially a rookie, Like I'm not changing my timeline.
Speaker 2: They're not, but they've clearly signaled that they're not, just
by making the Zubats trade.
Speaker 3: Right, you don't trade for Zubots if you're like, we're
gonna our timeline is now that of a twenty year
old that we're about to draft, Like, no way, I
think again, though, if if, if, whoever they draft, say
they get the number one pick, say it's Debons, I
say it's Boozer, say it's it's whoever. I just think, like,
and that guy is in year two or three on
a I don't know, like an Anthony Edwards trajectory where
it's like pretty clear that this guy's gonna be making
a bunch of all NBA teams. I don't think Haliburton
is someone that's like, well, this isn't a fit. Like
what he does everything well that you need him to
do on offense, and like if he gets less defensive attention,
like imagine the passing that the Pacers will have.
Speaker 2: I tried to think about a while ago what I
would be most concerned, Like what area of his game
would be most concerned about coming off the Achilles injury,
because it's not they play fast, but a lot of
the reason they're playing fast is what's happening in the
half court. Not necessarily he's using blinding explosion to get
up to court, I guess defensively because he had not quietly,
but he had improved there last year, Like that would
make him more vulnerable. But if you were trying to
pinpoint the offensive end, I do wonder if it would
be slightly harder for him to be a secondary guy
because some of the off ball movement stuff that he did,
especially post Buddy Heel trade way back. When does that
get any harder if you're not working, you know, if
you're not working, if the achilles injury just sort of
impacts your movement.
Speaker 3: I actually think I would be more worried about him
creating his own shots because that was kind of a
that's that's been an issue in parts of his career
to this point, and if you aren't quite as twitchy,
I could see that being But he's still gonna be
so valuable just because of how he sees the floor.
Speaker 2: I ultimately think, I ultimately think this is gonna be
a Kevin Durant type of just come back from Tyre's
Halliburn is that if there is a difference with Kevin Durant,
you also how much of it is actually associated with age,
And so like even Tatum too.
Speaker 1: I just look at those guys.
Speaker 2: Maybe they come back and they're like five or ten
percent worse, and that still means that they're gonna be
in the MVP discussion each.
Speaker 3: Year, right right?
Speaker 2: The number one team Grant, Do you want to guess
who it is? I mean, I'm looking at the sheet,
this Charlotte Hornets.
Speaker 1: Karmack score of ninety three.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you this before we get into
the nitty gritty of how they've fired.
Speaker 3: Are you surprised? No, Because we're so clearly in the
bag for the Hornets. I think that we we unethically
just made this happen. Tell me I'm wrong. I'm a
little surprised. I'm a little surprised, but I.
Speaker 2: Think two things above all really shifted where they ended
up here. One is just objectively, they maxed out the
years they like. They more than maxed out. They haven't
want a playoff series in twenty plus years, so they
got a score of fifteen them The Kings are the
only team to do that. They also have a very
long playoff drought. It's longer than the Kings's, so that's
gonna bump them up. They had the single longest playoff
drought of anyone.
Speaker 3: YEP.
Speaker 1: On top of those things, though, I.
Speaker 2: Really do think the shift from the Michael Jordan led
ownership to this group led by Rick Shnall and then
having Jeff Pearson in the front office, and the move
that they have made over the past couple of years
really solidified their spot in Now, if you look at
franchise competency, they they actually finished.
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't realize they were pretty high.
Speaker 2: For you, they probably if we did this two years ago,
there's a chance that they would have been like in
one of the bottom three.
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, like, no doubt, like they were.
They were. It's hard to beat the Kings, but they
would have been in consideration with literally anybody else, Like
to two is not crazy like during the Jordan era
like that. You don't you don't pile up a playoff
draught like that if you're being run well like they,
you know, they they definitely would have been really low there.
So I just viewed you you alluded to it the
way this rebuild has gone, Like the patience they've exercised,
the willingness to make the little marginal incremental moves, to
not take a big dumb swing, to just happily accept seconds,
to to not tie up the books, like all of
that has been exactly what you want to see. And
I think it's a little bit like the Wizards have done,
except like the Hornets have just made the right picks
and they've held on to players that maybe other teams
would have cut bait on, like LaMelo for example. They've
they've had a lot of difficult decisions mixed in there
with like the small, un sexy moves. So like they
kind of, to me, at least in the most recent seasons,
which is kind of what I'm considering, have kind of
done all the stuff right. So that's a big discrepancy
for us there. But I just I feel strongly that
they've just done a great job front office wise.
Speaker 2: Their big miss it doesn't it's not doesn't look as
egregious now, but like t John Salon at number six
is still maybe the biggest blemish on their record. I
guess some people would say not trading LaMelo ball, but
that part that patience has been kind of validated by
what they're doing as we're recording.
Speaker 3: This at this moment exactly now, I think that's what
I mean. Like, I'm sure in discussions with you over
the last couple of years, I've said they should trade
him because I don't think he's gonna stay healthy enough
or get to the level of where he's your best
player and you're doing anything.
Speaker 2: But now they might be a little jazzy because of
Conk Nipple and Brandon Miller right.
Speaker 3: Well, but the thing is like they don't so they
can win it two ways. Either LaMelo can sustain this
and can you continue to improve and Charlotte keeps winning
and he is that guy, or it doesn't matter because
Conk Nipple is and you drafted him in a spot
where it was like, ooh, that's high and now it's
like he should be Rookie of the Year and he's
having the greatest shooting season by a rookie ever. I
have no doubt Nipple will make like many many All
Star Games, and that feels like a floor. So so
just like they the LaMelo of it all is kind
of right sized now because you don't need him to
be your absolute apex guy. You have another crack at it.
And that's before getting to Brandon Miller, who like, yeah,
I don't know, I could see it in a couple
of years if he's the best player on this team,
not not unthinkable.
Speaker 1: I gave him a pretty huge.
Speaker 2: Bumping competitive spirit too, because so many of their poor
showings have just been the Mello was injured and we
don't have anybody else there, so they've never been. They've
been tank they've tanked, but they've never been among the
most They've never consistently been among the most egregious tankers.
I will say, if we were trying to go by,
I want to just see what would happen next year
if this team won the draft lottery. The Blaze, the Jazz,
and the Hornets are like super high up there for me,
that that could Pacers chaotic the Pacers. For me, the
Pacers would be fascinating from us. So all these other
teams I name are still sort of in the they're
looking to break into the relevant spectrum. There would be
such a fascinating dynamic to see the Pacers trying to
contend for a title while integrating. It'd be the Warriors
with James Wiseman essentially, But you hope it goes better.
Speaker 3: How do we but it works?
Speaker 1: But it will it work?
Speaker 2: How do we integrate this incredibly hot because that's a
that's a delicate balance to strike even on lower levels.
You just see it where like teams that we really
like this end of first round prospect or the second
round pick.
Speaker 1: But it's how do you carve out minutes when the
stakes are so high?
Speaker 3: For you. Yeah, Now, I would trust them to figure
it out. I would trust for Carlisle to figure it out.
I do think we should note that the Pacers run
away with this if not for the Hornets playoff drought,
because that is a massive score, and the Pacers have
the lowest scores in those categories. Uh So if not
for those, like, I'm trying to think of any other
scenario where like, if not for this category, things would
have been more different. That's the one. The Pacers are
probably ten points clear of everybody else in the KRMA
rankings if the Hornets didn't have the longest playoff drought
outside of the Kings. And but look, fan base paying
matters to me though, too, and it should I should.
I'm just saying that's carrying all that's lift doing a
lot of the lift, which is.
Speaker 1: Just I mean, even who was the last Charlotte Hornet
to make an All NBA team?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Kemba Walker did he ever make one?
Speaker 2: It was Kemba Walker. And it's like kember Walker and
Al Jefferson were their two most recent All NBA players,
which is that's a This fan base has indored a lot.
When you're looking at the basketball product on the floor.
And they've also don't you feel they've maybe been teased
the most just because you have this potentially transcendent player
in LaMelo. Even Brandon Miller until this season when you're
looking at his availability in the flashes, he's shown a
constant were how many did we enter the season saying
I don't know, man, the Hornets have a lot of dudes,
like they might surprise some people in these This is
like pre Conkin Nipple, pre Brandon Miller too.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, and just to pile on like KAlP
Brinner is a good pick where they got him, Seon
James is that plays real minutes where they This is
just a franchise competency. Again, like they they've done a
lot right in again post post ownership change.
Speaker 2: They have to like a like quietly solid drafts dash
all of their own that Mavericks pick that heat pick
so they could be active up it if they win
the lottery and they also have I really hope it's
the Pacers.
Speaker 1: The Blazers are there.
Speaker 2: I want every fan base to get the number one pick,
but the Pacers, the Blazers, the.
Speaker 1: Hornets, and the Jazz would be just the most fascinating.
Speaker 3: Ones to me, and so, if deserve has anything to
do with it, the Charlotte Hornets will win the draft lottery.
They deserve it most. It's been mathematically proven.
Speaker 2: They won karma score of ninety three. That was the
benchmark to beat and no one beat it. They are
karmically the team that deserves the ione pick the most.
Speaker 1: Do you agree?
Speaker 3: Do you disagree?
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of karma. This was fun.
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: I just liked that we really did some science. You know.
Speaker 1: Spoiler ears.
Speaker 2: This might be expanded to to include more people and
appear on a certain website that both of us work for.
Speaker 3: So and I think we'll fine tune it. We might
add or subtract categories. We might. There's there's a lot
of directions to go here.
Speaker 2: This is an annual Unless people hate it, this is
an annual podcast.
Speaker 1: I just feel like we're going to do it. Fuck
the audience.
Speaker 3: We love you guys, all right, you got anything to add?
Speaker 1: No, you're ready to take us out?
Speaker 2: The look fifteen teams in under ninety minutes while explaining
the super scientific karma metric that we came up with.
Speaker 1: That's that's banner pacing by us.
Speaker 3: Thank you everybody for listening, for watching. Make sure you
rate and review and subscribe. Let us know what you
think of the Karma rankings. Give us categories that like, Look,
this is science. Is an ongoing process. You know, you hypothesize,
you perform the experiments, You test and test and test.
I saw commercial, I think for Nike maybe or some
of the Olympics that said that that's how I learned
the scientific method. It was not a sophomore year of
high school. Join a discord links for that YouTube and
podcast description. Tell your friends, Tell your enemies, shouts Frank
milockin apologies, Jared Allen