Speaker 1: I am very much in Amsterdam, so like we're getting ready.
Speaker 1: I need to get through this today so I can
Speaker 1: consume my weight in weed brownie and wander over to
Speaker 1: this pub.
Speaker 2: That I quite like so nice.
Speaker 1: I like to sit on this pub by this one
Speaker 1: canal and like watch people go buy on bikes. We
Speaker 1: got here and we went immediately to this particular pub ILike,
Speaker 1: and there was a guy with this cute little dog
Speaker 1: who didn't want to leave the pub, and then he
Speaker 1: eventually got the dog to come and then immediately put
Speaker 1: it in a basket on his bicycle. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I fucking love Amsterdam, bro, Like hell yeah, he just
Speaker 1: like fully biking off with that little guy in the front.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's awesome culture, man, it's so good.
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen anyone fall in the canal? I'm
Speaker 2: sure it's only tourist if you have, but never.
Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone fall in the canal, although I
Speaker 1: will say that so it's really hot. It's like in
Speaker 1: the nineties, and there are lots of young people swimming
Speaker 1: in the canals, and I was like, oh shit, is
Speaker 1: it like clean enough to do that? And like they
Speaker 1: uh like they have like swimming pontoons and stuff, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I bet I guess they cleaned them
Speaker 1: up or something like. You know in London they're always
Speaker 1: like stay the funk out of the canal. You will
Speaker 1: get chlamydia.
Speaker 2: You know, but that's crazy.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, so who knows. Man, that's all sorts
Speaker 1: of things happening on the continent, right, So.
Speaker 2: That's awesome that yeah, stuff like that is so cool.
Speaker 1: Kind of got what yeah, oh yeah, like, oh sorry
Speaker 1: the internet. Listen everyone, I'm on Hotel Wi Fi. So
Speaker 1: we're doing our best out here, but you know, like
Speaker 1: it might be a bit scattered. But yeah, as I
Speaker 1: texted you yesterday, I did get talked down to by
Speaker 1: the lady in the weed shop and I bought what
Speaker 1: I bought my annible yesterday and I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I was like, listen, you know, I'm a grown up, right.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to get I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this weed brownie because I just like
Speaker 1: prefer the edibles in my old old age. And also,
Speaker 1: blessed Justin doesn't know how to inhale weed, so yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right there. He's like, I'm right here, you know
Speaker 1: how to do it Courtney.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Never good at smoking.
Speaker 2: But yeah, So anyway, class was explaining to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently a young woman in the class he was
Speaker 1: teaching today explained to him he needs to learn how
Speaker 1: to inhale weed, which is true. But listen, we got
Speaker 1: this brownie. We got this brownie one way or another,
Speaker 1: and she was like, well, do you smoke weed? And
Speaker 1: I was like, man like, madam, like you I'm clearly old,
Speaker 1: right you think that. I'm like, I can show it
Speaker 1: up in here. Like in the first place, the bouncer
Speaker 1: lad he'd been id people in front of us, and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh shit, do we need ID? And
Speaker 1: then so he's like, you're clearly not young. You don't
Speaker 1: need to show the ID. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's true, but also like fuck you a little bit.
Speaker 1: But anyway, and I go when I go, I just like,
Speaker 1: do you even smoke weed? I'm like, it's since you've
Speaker 1: were not even a glint in your father's eye, ma'am.
Speaker 1: And then like it was like so she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well what do you And I was like, look, I
Speaker 1: usually do edibles and she's like what do you do?
Speaker 1: When I was like, usually like ten milligrams, and she's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so like cut this into quarters. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to cut it into eighths. Okay, Like I understand,
Speaker 1: to be clear, I understand not to eat this whole thing. Like,
Speaker 1: but I suppose they probably do have a lot of
Speaker 1: tourists who just go crazy eat a brownie, you know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I also don't understand that it like tourists,
Speaker 2: I mean don't and and I don't mean it's contestining,
Speaker 2: but like if you if you don't, if you're not
Speaker 2: used to the weed that you get in a place
Speaker 2: where it has been legalized for a long time and
Speaker 2: it is a cultural or counter cultural thing there, like uh, California, Colorado, Washington, Alaska,
Speaker 2: Amster Day, you know, like and the various places all
Speaker 2: over that that have that. It like the weed is stronger,
Speaker 2: it's higher quality, it is you know, it's just it's
Speaker 2: a it's it's a bit different. And and the edibles
Speaker 2: like they hit a lot more evenly typically when you
Speaker 2: have places like that, because even people who even doing
Speaker 2: edibles like like how they make them in like uh
Speaker 2: like uh big growhouses and like factories and stuff. Now,
Speaker 2: like you could still get uneven because that's just how
Speaker 2: you know, fluid mixtures work. Sometimes they yeah, and uh yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's really strong, so like, yeah, I'm sure they're
Speaker 2: probably just checking. However, it is also just going into
Speaker 2: a dispensary is like mortifyingly embarrassing on all levels. And
Speaker 2: I'm and I'm a person who is like just like
Speaker 2: go all in for whatever you like or whatever. And
Speaker 2: I'm fine, you know, I talk about weed. It's great.
Speaker 2: I think it's cool if people want to use it.
Speaker 2: If they don't, that's also cool. I don't really give
Speaker 2: a shit. But like going in there, it just it's
Speaker 2: it feels like the lamest thing in the world, even
Speaker 2: if you know them, even if you go in there
Speaker 2: all the time, because you're just like like in Futurama
Speaker 2: when Zoidberg gets money and he's like one art please,
Speaker 2: and you go in and you're like, one marijuana please,
Speaker 2: good sir. Like you're wearing like a shirt that's like
Speaker 2: a like a big Bride orange shirt that says like,
Speaker 2: I'm a fucking tourist. I just fell off the turn
Speaker 2: up truck.
Speaker 1: Oh completely, And it's like and obviously I'm in you know,
Speaker 1: one of the touristy areas because that's like here, I
Speaker 1: know where to go, and like, yeah, here, did I
Speaker 1: show you, I'll show you, I'll show you. Like the box,
Speaker 1: it's like they've got it's like very gimmicky. So last
Speaker 1: time last year, they got my ass when I came
Speaker 1: because they have like this very fancy red velvet cake
Speaker 1: and it comes in a similar box with So I
Speaker 1: showed you the box, but like when you open it up,
Speaker 1: look it's like, uh all gold inside.
Speaker 2: See oh oh you got the gold foil.
Speaker 1: The box for the red velvet cake like folds out
Speaker 1: like a flower, and like they got my ass with that.
Speaker 1: So I got this like red velvet cake, and I
Speaker 1: gotta tell you it was the nastiest fucking thing that
Speaker 1: I go.
Speaker 2: Say. Red velvet cake is hard. It is hard to
Speaker 2: get right in the first place. And uh throwing throwing
Speaker 2: such a pungent aroma slash specific taste into that yow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the reason why the Brownie real rules supreme.
Speaker 2: In the gummy Like, oh look I've got this fruit gummy. Okay, cool,
Speaker 2: even dummies.
Speaker 1: Here they don't do gummies really, yeah, which it was
Speaker 1: really interesting. I don't know if they like have rules
Speaker 1: about it or whatever, because I went in last year
Speaker 1: and I was fully giving it the like hello, I'm
Speaker 1: from Washington, you know. I like I prefer more sativa forward,
Speaker 1: you know. And I'm like I'm like fucking giving it
Speaker 1: this one. And they're like, look, it's an indigo sativa
Speaker 1: hybrid and we don't have dummies and I was like
Speaker 1: you don't and they're like, no, we only have red
Speaker 1: velvet cake or brownies. And I was like like so,
Speaker 1: like I'm in They're like acting like I know what's
Speaker 1: going on. I have no idea what the toutch are
Speaker 1: up to, Like I only know the Seattle dispensary. Like
Speaker 1: so I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2: Never mind that is.
Speaker 1: I'm like, my ass is always like going to like
Speaker 1: Shaun Camp cannabis when I'm home. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They oh man, like they're they're like they have their laws,
Speaker 2: like you have to have one good kind of weed
Speaker 2: and one terrible kind of weed to throw people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta suffer a little bit.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, it's it's the characteristic on the syntax.
Speaker 1: To be given words to like adjusting weed a bunch
Speaker 1: of indiica. I would argue, no, but like, I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe they're like, hopefully you'll just go fucking non verbal
Speaker 1: and stay in one place. But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows. I don't know. The indiicositiva thing is
Speaker 2: the Indico city of a hybrid thing is the three
Speaker 2: is the three different kinds of Duff beer? Uh the
Speaker 2: same tube? All right, man, yep, totally yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Guys that lady Duff.
Speaker 2: You know it's Uh, I love this market. Like people
Speaker 2: ask me, I'm like, I'm cool. Whatever you want, like,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever, whatever it is, and I like I
Speaker 2: sometimes sometimes be like, oh, you don't have a favorite,
Speaker 2: and I'm like I can't really tell a difference, and
Speaker 2: they kind of look at it and I'm like, I'm not
Speaker 2: getting into all this with people. It's not scientifically proven.
Speaker 2: It's not it's fully probably psychosomatic.
Speaker 1: It's fully like weed somaliaism. It's just like them being like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that this is what it is. And I
Speaker 1: mean I believe in the weed, which they're doing good work.
Speaker 2: Look if that if that works on you, like if
Speaker 2: you're the type of person who's like, oh, when I
Speaker 2: spoke Indica, I do feel this way knock yourself out.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: Don't like your brain and your body chemistry. That's that's
Speaker 2: your thing. I'm just saying scientifically, it is what it is,
Speaker 2: you know, Like, yeah, but not not here to to
Speaker 2: fuck with anyone's thing, all right.
Speaker 3: Questions yeah, questions, yeah.
Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome back to We're Not So Different, a podcast
Speaker 2: about how I read oh god, read velvet cake like
Speaker 2: red velvet cake.
Speaker 1: We I'm telling you it was nilsd.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well about how that's always been gross. Hey folks,
Speaker 2: we are doing some mail and we're back. We're back
Speaker 2: with another monthly installment of the patron mail Bag. As
Speaker 2: you know, we turn at least one episode a month
Speaker 2: into a long form advertisement for our Patreon by answering
Speaker 2: questions submitted by our patrons. Remember, if this interests you
Speaker 2: or you want to help the show by throwing us
Speaker 2: a little walking around money every month, you can do
Speaker 2: so for just five dollars a month at patreon dot
Speaker 2: com slash at w nstpod. Not only do you get
Speaker 2: good vibes from the knowledge that your money keeps the
Speaker 2: show going, you also get two bonus episodes a month,
Speaker 2: add free listening to all regular episodes and access to
Speaker 2: our discord chat. We normally answer these questions at the
Speaker 2: start of most episodes, but have so many that we
Speaker 2: need to do these mail bags, and so here we
Speaker 2: are this time we talk about what happens if you
Speaker 2: are shipwrecked in the Middle Ages, depictions of Jesus, Medieval crocs,
Speaker 2: the shoes, not the giant creatures, though they were around
Speaker 2: in some places. Slaves at the end of empire, noble
Speaker 2: views of chivalry getting cut off at the medieval pub
Speaker 2: the worst name for a child I've ever heard, at
Speaker 2: least the medieval and more enjoy verse from pro overflow.
Speaker 2: What's the painting slash treating wood situation? Are they painting
Speaker 2: houses and shed to protect them from the elements using
Speaker 2: pitch or creasido barns, treating wood with anything covered in
Speaker 2: mud or is it just frequently replaced.
Speaker 1: They're usually not building with that much wood, not all
Speaker 1: the time. They're often a building with wattle and daub
Speaker 1: and wood, so it's often kind of like you have
Speaker 1: beams and that sort of a thing and then wattle
Speaker 1: and daub in between, so you know, kind of what
Speaker 1: we would call a Tudor style building. They've got a
Speaker 1: lot of that going on in places however, where you
Speaker 1: do have more trees. So for example, in like Scandinavia,
Speaker 1: Bohemian places like that, you have wooden buildings that are
Speaker 1: often treated with like pitch and resin and things like that. Lacquer, Yeah,
Speaker 1: lacquer in order to kind of like keep it a
Speaker 1: little bit better. But it's one of these things where
Speaker 1: they kind of like remake their buildings a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, because things burn down and you know,
Speaker 1: stuff moves around, you want to enhance things, and they
Speaker 1: don't have the same interest in keeping old buildings as
Speaker 1: we do now. And so as a result, like things
Speaker 1: turn over a lot, and if you eventually get any money,
Speaker 1: you will build in stone like in cities and things
Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, it's a lot more waterle and daub.
Speaker 1: Occasionally things are painted, but the usually it's kind of
Speaker 1: like the equivalent of like whitewash, although oftentimes a big
Speaker 1: way that is augmented is you do put in colors.
Speaker 1: So you know, if you've got anything lying around, you
Speaker 1: make color. One thing is true that they will do,
Speaker 1: it's the you know, the color aux blood. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you put blood in with the whitewash and you
Speaker 1: get that pink color, so like fun, that's that's fun.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you might, you might do different colors in
Speaker 1: different places because you know, they never met an opportunity
Speaker 1: to make something bright that they didn't like, So you
Speaker 1: do have a lot of painting that goes on, for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Most of the stuff you read in histories about
Speaker 2: wood is treating it with lacquer, pitch or creosote for
Speaker 2: protection and waterproofing, especially with ships that is like they
Speaker 2: are they are doing so much pitch and tar type stuff,
Speaker 2: just like to to try and seal all of those
Speaker 2: little cranny nooks and everything in there, and.
Speaker 1: Which also helps you realize why things catch on fire
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if you have to, if you have to
Speaker 2: treat everything with creosote and pitch, both of those things.
Speaker 2: There's a reason that that pitch is used in battle
Speaker 2: and it's lit on fire because it's a it's an accelerant.
Speaker 2: Yeah almost, it was an upper like it was a drug.
Speaker 2: It's a drug. No no, no, no, no, you don't
Speaker 2: want none of this fire shit.
Speaker 1: I'll get it back here. Blasted off that Kreus out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, blasted per overflow, thank you for the question. Next
Speaker 2: week got one from Katie who says, this week my
Speaker 2: news algorithm to be an article from The Guardian about
Speaker 2: quote wife schools end quote hosted by Christian women preaching
Speaker 2: submissiveness to one's husband as the path to bliss yuck.
Speaker 2: Any who. The article talked about this being out of
Speaker 2: line with what is actually happening in organized religion right now,
Speaker 2: which they state is that young women are leaving religious
Speaker 2: institutions while young men are diving in. Here's the key
Speaker 2: quote quote, Women, especially those eighteen to twenty nine prime
Speaker 2: marrying age, are fleeing organized religion due in large part
Speaker 2: to its often regressive views on gender roles. Experts say. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: their male counterparts, brothers, friends, husbands seemed to be in
Speaker 2: the midst of a religious reawakening. This made me think
Speaker 2: about the various changes in religiosity and religious movements in
Speaker 2: the medieval era in Europe and wonder if there were
Speaker 2: in general similar gender differences in opinion actions slash actions
Speaker 2: about the changes that were happening in their society. Where
Speaker 2: their women in the media val era rolling their eyes
Speaker 2: at men waxing on about how great the crusade was
Speaker 2: going to be were their hordes of angry men to
Speaker 2: crying religious movements or societal changes driven by women. I
Speaker 2: can just imagine a woman being man'splained to about the
Speaker 2: Holy Land and how great a crusade was going to be,
Speaker 2: and herresponding with, you should definitely do that. Yep, go
Speaker 2: for it. You need help packing In summary? Are they
Speaker 2: examples of the medieval era where women and men respond
Speaker 2: to religious changes in opposite ways?
Speaker 1: Well, obviously we get to hear from women a lot less,
Speaker 1: so that's part of your first issue with this. And
Speaker 1: then when we do hear from women about this, it's
Speaker 1: like they have to be so fucking exceptional, right, So
Speaker 1: it's like it's people like Hildegard, right, and Hildegard we
Speaker 1: do hear from about this where she's like, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: all bullshit, right. And it's quite interesting because you can't
Speaker 1: call these women feminist because they don't think men and
Speaker 1: women are equal, to be clear, but they just don't
Speaker 1: think that women are evils. Yeah, yeah, they're they're like, listen, maybe,
Speaker 1: actually it's good that women are different from men. Like
Speaker 1: I'm just spitballing here, Like if if God created men
Speaker 1: and women, then it can't be that bad, right, Like,
Speaker 1: why would he make something that he thought sucked it?
Speaker 1: Does it really stand to reason? And indeed, like Christina
Speaker 1: Pizzan writes about this at the beginning of the City
Speaker 1: of Ladies, where she's like, you know, yeah, I've grown
Speaker 1: up my whole life, I'm hearing that women fucking suck
Speaker 1: and are the world and the most sinful, and that
Speaker 1: they're constantly like seducing men. But it's weird because I've
Speaker 1: never actually seen that happen, Like I've never seen it
Speaker 1: to be true. And so that's a quite interesting thing
Speaker 1: because she's not even saying that, like she didn't believe it.
Speaker 1: She's just like, it's weird because like that doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to bear out with the reality. And we definitely do
Speaker 1: see you know, we see men talking about women constantly,
Speaker 1: like it just happens all of the time. But I mean,
Speaker 1: for the most part, no, like people kind of really
Speaker 1: believe in the concept of crusading. They really seem to
Speaker 1: like it. You know, eventually it stops having anything to
Speaker 1: do with, you know, ordinary people. I think that you know,
Speaker 1: you most women are pretty happy to see their husband's
Speaker 1: fuck off if they are of the you know, echelon
Speaker 1: where they can go out to war, because it's like, okay, yeah, cool,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go over there, then like if I don't,
Speaker 1: if I choose not to go, which some go with
Speaker 1: and some don't, then that's cool because I'm just like
Speaker 1: ruling the house while you're gone, and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get knocked up. So yeah, that's nice, right, But
Speaker 1: you know, we do have to understand that one of
Speaker 1: the differences between religion and in religion now is that
Speaker 1: people then believed it right, whereas now there is a
Speaker 1: possibility of not believing in Christianity or indeed just rejecting
Speaker 1: organized religion. You know, there's there's no positible way of
Speaker 1: doing that in the Middle Ages. So even if you
Speaker 1: did maybe think it there, most women aren't going to
Speaker 1: be able to have a way to write it down.
Speaker 1: So that's not going to get back to us. And
Speaker 1: so we just kind of have to read between the lines.
Speaker 1: Is it probable that these things happened, Sure, it's just
Speaker 1: that we don't have a way of knowing, because that's
Speaker 1: just how source survival works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think reading between the lines is
Speaker 2: about the best you can get. Other than I mean there,
Speaker 2: what's that that book or it's a anonymous treatise about how.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're bang on here, because the Halli medved
Speaker 1: or a letter on virginity, does go into this, but
Speaker 1: from the opposite perspective. So it's like it's religious women
Speaker 1: saying don't get married because being married fucking sucks, and
Speaker 1: they're like, pregnancy sucks, childbirth sucks, being married sucks because
Speaker 1: your husband is almost certainly going to be a stupid
Speaker 1: piece of shit. He's not going to help you around
Speaker 1: the house, so you're going to have all the work.
Speaker 1: Plus you're going to have a kid, and it's awful
Speaker 1: and you basically are going to regret it, right, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: being completely sublimated to the wishes of a man and
Speaker 1: also having kids is really hard. You know, they might die,
Speaker 1: you'll be heartbroken, it'll be awful. So that's like the
Speaker 1: same thing from an opposite perspective, where religion there acts
Speaker 1: as a way to shield women from having to do
Speaker 1: this horrible fucking thing and some chut. Right. So it's
Speaker 1: interesting because now religion is being used as the key
Speaker 1: to making women subservient to men, whereas at the time
Speaker 1: it was like religion is the thing that could free
Speaker 1: you from this possibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that is probably the best
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to get from this. And
Speaker 2: you know, I know that's sometimes not what people really
Speaker 2: want to hear because they want like a definitive answer.
Speaker 2: But I like, I've been re listening to friend and
Speaker 2: former guests of the show evert Rummage's Age of Napoleon podcast,
Speaker 2: just re listening to everything, and it's great. But one
Speaker 2: thing I really am struck by is how like by
Speaker 2: this time, by that sorry, by that time in the
Speaker 2: early eighteen hundreds, you have memoirs from not just the wealthy,
Speaker 2: not just the notables of society, not not just you
Speaker 2: know whoever, you have it from like uh, you know,
Speaker 2: regular regular people who are like you know, they're like
Speaker 2: a barber or a uh they play the clarinet in
Speaker 2: like one of one of the Napoleonic bands or army
Speaker 2: bands or something like that, and you just have all
Speaker 2: of them. I mean there there are several dozen memoirs
Speaker 2: written by former sex workers and and and women who
Speaker 2: were just on like uh you know who just who
Speaker 2: were in the baggage trains of these armies, and we
Speaker 2: have nothing like that because we didn't, you know, because
Speaker 2: even if they did have paper, it would be very
Speaker 2: difficult for it to survive to us. And you know,
Speaker 2: you like all of the stuff we talk about with
Speaker 2: source survival and it's just like, yeah, they you don't
Speaker 2: get it. But when you do find a source, I
Speaker 2: think you can extrapolate feelings like that out of it.
Speaker 2: You just have to remember to put them in the
Speaker 2: context of medieval thought, because, as owners said, they were
Speaker 2: not feminist as we understand it. You know, it was
Speaker 2: a patriarchal society, but you know that political expression and
Speaker 2: form was still a ways off, even though we can
Speaker 2: call some of this stuff I guess like proto or
Speaker 2: extremely nascent. Yeah, you know, to.
Speaker 1: That I'm fine with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: Katie, thank you very much for the question. Next we
Speaker 2: got one from dog God who said, generally, what generally
Speaker 2: happened to the survivors of medieval shipwrecks if they were
Speaker 2: strained into a foreign country? Did they have a way
Speaker 2: of getting home? And I think one big thing here
Speaker 2: is that this depends on where you are shipwrecked, when
Speaker 2: you are shipwrecked, and what the relationship is between the
Speaker 2: place the owner of the land that you have been
Speaker 2: ship direcked upon in your home nation or territory or whatever.
Speaker 2: And a lot of times that's us controlled by treaty
Speaker 2: like yeah, and and but yeah, it's it really depends eleanor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. But I mean I think that like,
Speaker 1: you probably stand the best chance of getting back home
Speaker 1: if you are like a Venetian. Yeah, for example, like,
Speaker 1: because they have such an incredibly wide array of ships
Speaker 1: that are moving around at all times, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: able to find another Venetian in the area wherever you are,
Speaker 1: like in order to help out, and they are going
Speaker 1: to you know, be able to kind of like vouch
Speaker 1: for you because if they know where your family is
Speaker 1: or whatever, they'll they'll pick you up right, they'll take
Speaker 1: you home. If you end up shipwrecked, you know, very
Speaker 1: far away, like completely outside of your cultural context, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be a little more difficult. But if you're a
Speaker 1: merchant or a trader or some kind, you'll probably be
Speaker 1: good because most people are quite interested in sort of
Speaker 1: like keeping trade flowing, right, They're gonna be like, oh, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: let's find someone who's got some kind of language in common.
Speaker 1: We'll get this worked out. We'll see what we can see,
Speaker 1: and it is possible to kind of make your way
Speaker 1: back home. You're gonna run into trouble if you are
Speaker 1: like a soldier of some description and you end up
Speaker 1: in the wrong place. Like that's the thing, Like, even
Speaker 1: nobility like this can be a real problem because you know,
Speaker 1: if there's beef between you and whoever else, you might
Speaker 1: find yourself in trouble. They might demand ransoms in order
Speaker 1: to get you different places, that sort of thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think on the whole you're best off being a
Speaker 1: trader because you know, trade is the thing that unites
Speaker 1: us all. But I mean, like if you are I
Speaker 1: would need wrong like in Genoa, good luck. They're not
Speaker 1: all like that, you know, So yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean there, And there's also a chance that the people,
Speaker 2: the first person that you encounter if you are ship
Speaker 2: direct is a group of pirates or smugglers or bandits
Speaker 2: some something like that, and you meet a grizzly fate
Speaker 2: regardless of whether you know whether you landed on your
Speaker 2: ally shores or an enemy shores. So you know, it's
Speaker 2: just a it's the rich menagerie of medieval life the rich,
Speaker 2: the rich heterogeneous tap of medieval life, where like it
Speaker 2: was like well, I mean, like if you're Venetian and
Speaker 2: you got a bunch of money on you and you
Speaker 2: land intact, you could probably get home from anywhere unless
Speaker 2: somebody you know who doesn't care picks you up and
Speaker 2: just kills you for the gold you have, and which
Speaker 2: goes well, I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sorry, completely completely all.
Speaker 2: Right, uh dogad, Thank you very much for the question.
Speaker 2: Next we got one from the final vow. Can we
Speaker 2: get a brief history of how Jesus was depicted through
Speaker 2: antiquity in the medieval era? How did certain symbols besides
Speaker 2: the obvious cross or colors come to represent him? Who
Speaker 2: decided what he looked like? The question is inspired by
Speaker 2: my friend who grew up Catholic, pointing out a medieval
Speaker 2: manuscript where Jesus was shown clean shaven. He said that
Speaker 2: he'd never seen Jesus drawn that way before. I also
Speaker 2: remembered reading about very early images of Jesus looking like
Speaker 2: the god Apollo. And I've seen Russian Orthodox icons that
Speaker 2: you look somewhat distinct as well. I imagine there were points
Speaker 2: of divergence for that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean mostly it's going to be based on
Speaker 1: artistic preferences, which do exist. I mean, the major way
Speaker 1: you're going to see your good boy JC is on
Speaker 1: the cross, which is, you know, the ordinary sort of thing,
Speaker 1: or you're going to see him depicted within varying bits
Speaker 1: of his life, you know, so that you understand that
Speaker 1: you're looking at Jesus. Right. They all usually have a
Speaker 1: little bit of icronography, like any religious person, that tells
Speaker 1: you who they are. So you know, if it's Saint Agnes,
Speaker 1: she's going to have a lamb with her. You know,
Speaker 1: if it's John the Baptist, he's going to be looking
Speaker 1: scruffy with it. Things like that. So you need to
Speaker 1: have these symbols so that people know who it is.
Speaker 1: They are looking at an unbearded Jesus. Not usual, it's
Speaker 1: not particularly un usual, but it would make sense within
Speaker 1: a clerical context because a lot of the time a
Speaker 1: monks shave their which is a symbol of their the
Speaker 1: fact that they've retreated from the world. So you know,
Speaker 1: monks are often tauntured and shaven, and that's how you
Speaker 1: know that they're a member of the clergy, because they
Speaker 1: don't have beards and things of this nature. They're they're
Speaker 1: apart and separate from the world. So Jesus with no
Speaker 1: beard is likely to be a reference to kind of
Speaker 1: clerical sensibilities, church sensibilities. You know, this is a monk
Speaker 1: trying to see himself in Jesus, right, Symbology wise, like
Speaker 1: earlier on, you know, you got lots of you know,
Speaker 1: ick this is and things like that, so you draw
Speaker 1: the little fish and stuff before it becomes legal to
Speaker 1: be a Christian and then that kind of thing, so
Speaker 1: you have that little symbology like in terms of the oh,
Speaker 1: they're like it looks like the god Apollo. I think
Speaker 1: all that stuff is really over egged, and it's like
Speaker 1: pretty Victorian in the sensibilities, you know, people want there
Speaker 1: to be this like one to one paganism which is
Speaker 1: then replaced with Christianity when what we definitely know from
Speaker 1: watching Christianity takeover in certain places, So for example, like
Speaker 1: with the Vikings, what you often see more often is
Speaker 1: actually these two things existing side by side, much to
Speaker 1: the scrin of the clergy, right, And you know when
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, well, really Easter is just peg
Speaker 1: in the holiday and I'm like, yeah, like everybody. I
Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. Everybody has a spring festival,
Speaker 1: right like like this is this isn't a gotcha, right like,
Speaker 1: it just is what it is like, and you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, possibly possibly, yeah, sure, it might be
Speaker 1: nice to just like if you've got a nice statue
Speaker 1: of Apollo, you might just want to be like, no,
Speaker 1: it's Jesus and like paying him the different color or
Speaker 1: some shit, because like that's pretty nice statute. You might
Speaker 1: you might want to reuse it. But you know, by
Speaker 1: the time we're in the medieval period, like it's it's
Speaker 1: been a minute, right, that's we were doing all that,
Speaker 1: you know, so you have lots of other things, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously iconography differs between like the Orthodox Church
Speaker 1: and the Catholic Church at times, but on the whole,
Speaker 1: you pretty much know who you're looking at, and for them,
Speaker 1: it's less like this is a drawing of Jesus and
Speaker 1: he looks this way. It's more like I need to
Speaker 1: make this legible as Jesus. Yeah right, It's it's not
Speaker 1: portraiture as such. It is it is symbols and that's
Speaker 1: what matters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm visibly shuddering at beardless Jesus that no, no thanks,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I don't I don't even care, like I
Speaker 2: just like know that. Yeah, I'm sorry. I yeah. All
Speaker 2: I would add is that you asked about color, and
Speaker 2: purple as a color has been associated with Jesus since
Speaker 2: the earliest times because purple was the color of world
Speaker 2: and you know, nobility at the or not nobility of
Speaker 2: royalty in the highest levels of of of rulership at
Speaker 2: that time. So yeah, been that way since before the
Speaker 2: medieval era. But yeah, final val, thank you again very
Speaker 2: much for the question. Next we got one from Quixotic,
Speaker 2: who says, I took the following picture of a statue
Speaker 2: at the met Cloisters and this acrobat, this acrobat here
Speaker 2: appears to be wearing crocs. What kind of what kind
Speaker 2: of footwear is this and what is the advantage of it? Also,
Speaker 2: is footwear in general something most normal people are making
Speaker 2: for themselves, especially a specialty good they pay someone else for.
Speaker 2: Thanks for the pod, and seriously people go to the
Speaker 2: met Cloisters And if you can from Quixotic, so yeah,
Speaker 2: eleanor why is this? Why is the monk doing a
Speaker 2: backbend and why is he wearing slippers that look like
Speaker 2: they have Swiss cheese holes in them, like modern crocs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what we are looking at is probably actual slippers.
Speaker 1: As you say. So, like the major way that we
Speaker 1: see footwear in the Middle Ages is you have kind
Speaker 1: of wooden overshoes for walking around in the mud and
Speaker 1: shit like that, and then you kind of have like
Speaker 1: a cloth shoe or a wool shoe or like a
Speaker 1: softer leather shoe that then slips inside that so that
Speaker 1: when you get into a house, you take your overshoes
Speaker 1: off and then you bring these in. And I think
Speaker 1: what we're seeing here is they're trying to sort of
Speaker 1: show us a stippling effect, probably on soft leather. So
Speaker 1: this is going to be like, oh, these are kind
Speaker 1: of fancier shoes. It's got like polka dots right here.
Speaker 1: You can see there's been a lot of attention paid
Speaker 1: to the folds of the cloth. They're really trying to
Speaker 1: make it sure you understand how the cloth folds, and
Speaker 1: so what they're doing there is they're also showing you that,
Speaker 1: like this is kind of worked leather. There are cobblers,
Speaker 1: is the answer. They do be out here coblin. Even
Speaker 1: if you are in a smaller village, you know, there
Speaker 1: might have access to someone who specializes in this. But
Speaker 1: a lot of times people make they own shoe, you know,
Speaker 1: like you will. You can make leather shoes, you can
Speaker 1: make wooden shoes and things like that. But also you know,
Speaker 1: when you go to market town, there's gonna be someone
Speaker 1: who's better at making clogs than you, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and fun fact, this is this here, this
Speaker 1: little backbend, this is like the number one way that
Speaker 1: they love to show acrobats. They're always showing acrobats hating
Speaker 1: this move. The Salome on the outside of Ruan Cathedral
Speaker 1: is hit in this as well, which I think is
Speaker 1: really funny because they're like, oh yeah, the sexiest thing
Speaker 1: they can think of is this. Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2: It's neither here nor there. But I love art of
Speaker 2: Solome because like she was one of the pre imminent
Speaker 2: muses and art tropes from I don't know, like probably
Speaker 2: like two ears basically since like the Catholic Church as
Speaker 2: an entity has existed probably before that, and like now,
Speaker 2: like now today she is solely known through art, Like
Speaker 2: she is not like what uh like that? That is it?
Speaker 2: Like like when I was growing up, like Solome was
Speaker 2: just a name that's in the Bible, like it's not
Speaker 2: accorded like any significance like it was to people like
Speaker 2: back in the day, like I'm so horny, what can
Speaker 2: I get away with drawing? Oh clarial dude?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, exactly, it's like, yeah, she's she's baddie or
Speaker 1: allowed to draw, right yep? And her and Jezebel Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's fun how how that shows up? So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting. This is a really interesting uh yeah statue.
Speaker 1: I really like it. I think it's clearly kind of
Speaker 1: was on a pillar or something like that, so you know,
Speaker 1: you could you can see how much fun the Stonemason
Speaker 1: is having with this one, which I really respect. But yeah,
Speaker 1: basically I think that what they're just trying to show
Speaker 1: is that this person has really fun clothes, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like underscores their their position as
Speaker 1: as an acrobat. Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also, all the subject of the cloisters, I'm probably giving
Speaker 1: a talk there in January or February this year, probably
Speaker 1: more likely to be fab at this point, so I
Speaker 1: don't know, if you're in the area, I'll let you
Speaker 1: know when that happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll probably yeah, I'll probably use this image as
Speaker 2: the header for this episode so you can take a look.
Speaker 1: Yeah, come check it out, guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd post images on spreaker where this stuff comes from,
Speaker 2: but they won't. Uh, they won't let me post some
Speaker 2: of the things. So yeah, anyway, I'll definitely post it
Speaker 2: on Patreon too, quick son, thank you for the question
Speaker 2: and the fun image. Next, we got one man this
Speaker 2: name from Uh, we got one from Jost, the Texican
Speaker 2: who says, is it known what became of Astrolabe, the
Speaker 2: son of Eloise and frenemy of the show Peter Abelard. Uh,
Speaker 2: I need to say that Astrolabe is the naming your
Speaker 2: kid Kalisi of the Middle Ages. Yeah, I also need
Speaker 2: to say that he became.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: His name is Astrolabias, which just makes in Latin it's
Speaker 2: Astrolabias and it just sounds like Astrolabia. Anyway, man probably
Speaker 2: just annihilated him with that name in school or whatever. Anyway,
Speaker 2: eleanor I'm sure there's a serious hatser here.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so we know from letters that Heloise
Speaker 1: wrote that she's kind of like trying to make sure
Speaker 1: he has a good position. We know that he's been
Speaker 1: educated for the church, which is of course probably what
Speaker 1: they wanted. And we do know that Eloise, like writes
Speaker 1: the Abbot of Clooney, Peter is the Venerable, and like
Speaker 1: she's trying to find a position for him in like
Speaker 1: an affiliate collegiate church sometime in the twelfth century, and
Speaker 1: Peter's venerable writes back to Eloise like really nicely, and
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, like I'll find him a prebend and
Speaker 1: like and he's like, I'll do it for your sake,
Speaker 1: which kind of shows you the esteem that Eloise is
Speaker 1: held in. So you know, clearly this is like a
Speaker 1: woman who commands this serious respect. And she's also clearly
Speaker 1: still doing like the mom thing of being like, we
Speaker 1: got to find a position for my kid. Right, So
Speaker 1: we do know that he's definitely like being groomed for
Speaker 1: the church, and we know that he is kind of
Speaker 1: connected to a guy called Poucher who was attached to
Speaker 1: the cathedral in Nantes, and then like we do know
Speaker 1: that like these are people who kind of like look
Speaker 1: after him. Right, There's a guy called Bernard of Escoublac,
Speaker 1: and he was a dean of the cathedral chapter at Clervaux,
Speaker 1: and that's a really big deal, right, So he he
Speaker 1: like helps find these places, so we know that he
Speaker 1: eventually kind of like finds like a place within the church,
Speaker 1: and that there are are multiple members of the church
Speaker 1: who are interested in making sure that he lives a nice,
Speaker 1: long life. So yeah, there you go, church.
Speaker 2: For him, right, Yeah, yeah, we should probably do an
Speaker 2: episode on Avalard at some point. He's just so interesting,
Speaker 2: like good and bad, insanely weird and insanely insanely just
Speaker 2: what an interesting person for this for this time, Like
Speaker 2: it really seems like a man out of history and
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of brother alb right, my
Speaker 2: god man. Ah So but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, I mean, fundamentally people really
Speaker 1: like clearly people like Eloise.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they love her, and uh yeah it's they
Speaker 2: don't less So yeah, they don't like Abelard, but they
Speaker 2: like Eloise and she fucking loves Abelard for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: whatever reason.
Speaker 1: An astrolabe Ablard that's his kid's name. This poor kid.
Speaker 1: You'd have to go to the church, you'd have to, like,
Speaker 1: you can't, you can't. No one's gonna fuck.
Speaker 2: Astrola because they no one else knows what an astrolabe is.
Speaker 2: I was when I look this up. I learned that
Speaker 2: Abelard was the person who like popularized the astrolabe as
Speaker 2: like a as like a I guess an art motif
Speaker 2: and also is like a real way for them to
Speaker 2: like describe their cosmology. So like it's like it's like
Speaker 2: the guy it's like, uh, Marconi naming his son radio
Speaker 2: and then being like why doesn't anyone why why don't
Speaker 2: you know what his name is? Like it's so like,
Speaker 2: oh man, Anyway, I don't think Ablard invented the astrolab
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm just saying it's kind of comparable. Josh,
Speaker 2: thank you very much for the question. Uh good life
Speaker 2: astrolabe probably went into the church and died around the
Speaker 2: eleven fifty eleven fifties. Yeah, so, uh, Next we got
Speaker 2: one from Laura and Pegasus, who says, I don't know
Speaker 2: if this question is more ancient than medieval history, but
Speaker 2: I was wondering what happened to all the slaves in
Speaker 2: the district different regions of the Western Roman Empire as
Speaker 2: it started collapsing. Did they escape just kept on as
Speaker 2: slaves and gradually become serfs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's pretty much it. Yeah, Like so
Speaker 1: basically the Roman empire itself collapses, but like your boss
Speaker 1: is still fucking there, Like the guy who owns he
Speaker 1: was still there, and he's usually got some hired goons, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: not tired of saying that.
Speaker 2: Ever, No, I never will be no matter how, no
Speaker 2: matter that the definition of goons has changed to like
Speaker 2: people who like edge when they jerk off or whatever
Speaker 2: it actually is, it's it's hired goons to me, dam it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always going to be hired guons to me. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that there are going to be your people
Speaker 1: who are compelling you to stay in your place. They
Speaker 1: do eventually kind of switch over into being more in surf.
Speaker 1: But also in the earlier medieval period we do have
Speaker 1: a high level of enslavement that often happens, for example,
Speaker 1: like that's what the vikings are doing, like unpopular fact
Speaker 1: that people people really like to gloss over that. Now
Speaker 1: people like to be like, oh there were traders, and
Speaker 1: I'm always like, uh huh, what were they trading?
Speaker 2: Trading?
Speaker 1: Well, that's cool, Like, babe, there's only so much amber
Speaker 1: in the Baltic right, like, so they are there's and
Speaker 1: that's also why things you know, when you know, you
Speaker 1: hear the term rape and pillage, it's confusing because it
Speaker 1: comes from like the word raptists, and raptists means kidnap
Speaker 1: as much as it means rape, so like, actually what
Speaker 1: most people are complaining about is the fact that like
Speaker 1: you get fucking kidnapped when the vikings show up, and
Speaker 1: like and also not even with the vikings, but like
Speaker 1: earlier in the medieval period, you can be the victim
Speaker 1: of like raids from local places, and what they usually
Speaker 1: try to do is kind of just like get you
Speaker 1: far enough away from like maybe your linguistic group or
Speaker 1: anyone who can like necessarily help you, and then and
Speaker 1: then you'll be enslaved. So the Roman slaves just kind
Speaker 1: of they're still there and they're they're still enslaved. But
Speaker 1: the situation of enslavement doesn't really go away much until
Speaker 1: like the High Medieval period, like the further into Christianity
Speaker 1: you get the fewer enslaved people they are there are
Speaker 1: because like.
Speaker 2: Until until until the unpleasantness.
Speaker 1: Until the unpleasantness of that comes about in the fifteenth
Speaker 1: century and then forward, so in the medieval period, there
Speaker 1: are fewer and fewer enslaved people, but you're more likely
Speaker 1: to have like more enslaved people in areas where like
Speaker 1: Muslims and Christians are living next to each other because
Speaker 1: they're constantly like enslaving each other back and forth, as
Speaker 1: is the style of the time. So because you're kind
Speaker 1: of like allowed to have slaves from the other religions.
Speaker 1: But like so for example, like you have all kinds
Speaker 1: of you will see miracles done by certain stints. So
Speaker 1: for example, Saint Ventis loss one of his miracles after
Speaker 1: he's dead as he frees some slaves who are Christians.
Speaker 1: And it's like basically one of these things where it's
Speaker 1: made very clear that it's unacceptable to keep slaves if
Speaker 1: they are are Christian. And that's kind of like ninth century.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, Lauren Pegasus, thank you very much for
Speaker 2: the question. Next, we have one from Gafsei. We have
Speaker 2: an idea of how nobility. We have an idea of
Speaker 2: how nobility views chivalry and stuff from the popularity of
Speaker 2: written texts about Charllemagne's knights, King Arthur's court, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Do we have any records of popular oral traditions where
Speaker 2: the depictions of things like knightly honor, chivalry, et cetera
Speaker 2: significantly different, or were the broad strokes the same?
Speaker 1: Uh No, I mean the broad strokes about the same
Speaker 1: what you tend to get from popular literature, like especially,
Speaker 1: which is there's less like popular literature. It's more like
Speaker 1: fablio what you got written down, or like sometimes we
Speaker 1: have plays recorded and the major thing that you'll see
Speaker 1: there is them making fun of nights and doing fart
Speaker 1: jokes about them, doing jokes about how like the only
Speaker 1: thing they're actually interested in is like cucking their boss
Speaker 1: and like that that's actually what it's what it's about, right,
Speaker 1: like the idea that this isn't for anything virtuous and
Speaker 1: indeed it's just about like getting your leg over. That's
Speaker 1: that's what you had to say, so you know, it's
Speaker 1: why I'm not calling it particularly like subtle. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, if they're going to portray a knight is good,
Speaker 1: they're going to do it in exactly the same way.
Speaker 1: And if they feel like making fun of a night,
Speaker 1: they're gonna do pretty much exactly the same thing. It's
Speaker 1: just like, oh that you're just like an idiot with
Speaker 1: cta who wants to suck everything that moves the end. Yeah. Well, also,
Speaker 1: I guess we also do see like at times, like
Speaker 1: within legends. So for example, like you know, within the
Speaker 1: Robin Hood legend, I mean, the nobility is what's being
Speaker 1: lampooned here, you know, like you know, these these guys
Speaker 1: being bad right like and and needing to have be
Speaker 1: stole from stole from stolen from there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I also think that it's good to remember
Speaker 2: that a lot of the folklore and and epic traditions
Speaker 2: and stuff they do descend from popular oral traditions. So
Speaker 2: you know, like the stuff about you know, the to
Speaker 2: take an example of something like the Green Knight or
Speaker 2: something like that. You know, stories like that just because
Speaker 2: they were compiled by a churchman at some point, uh
Speaker 2: or you know later just another guy. But just because
Speaker 2: they were compiled by a churchman doesn't mean that they
Speaker 2: were uh noble in origin, although you know, the translation
Speaker 2: would probably get changed to you know, one that has
Speaker 2: more noble sensibilities. But yeah, I mean the problem with
Speaker 2: chivalry generally is that you can't point to it had
Speaker 2: you there. It's very very very very hard to point
Speaker 2: to it having been a real, uh even somewhat codified
Speaker 2: thing that people did at Eleanor of Aquitaine's court. Like
Speaker 2: there is evidence for and against that. But the thing
Speaker 2: that is undeniable is that after that fact, the concept
Speaker 2: of chivalries spread out into what I mean, their popular
Speaker 2: culture and their ideas to the point that we didn't
Speaker 2: really talk about it. But like the Persians, uh, the
Speaker 2: the Iranians, they had concepts of chivalry within their medieval
Speaker 2: societies of like how uh noble warriors should treat one another,
Speaker 2: and uh, I mean that that stems from the same
Speaker 2: like honor based systems and like you know, nightly virtue
Speaker 2: and stuff like that that the uh, the Eleanor chivalry
Speaker 2: idea came from. So and I mean they were still
Speaker 2: doing that. I talked about Napoleon earlier. They were still
Speaker 2: talking about the same stuff like nobles and generals and stuff.
Speaker 2: During the Napoleonic Wars. We're talking about you know, virtue
Speaker 2: and everything, as were the fucking uh slaveholding uh traitorous Confederacy.
Speaker 2: They all those guys were fucking obsessed with it. They
Speaker 2: didn't even they weren't even using swords anymore, and fucking
Speaker 2: gatling guns out there and they were still talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah hell man, Yeah, so true.
Speaker 2: They died and they deserved it anyway, funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I love that they died. It's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so yeah exactly. Uh yeah. The I think
Speaker 2: the views of chivalry were pretty much the same probably
Speaker 2: until don Quixote. Like at that point, I think you
Speaker 2: can probably understand that, like there is an undercurrent of like,
Speaker 2: all right, this is fucking stupid, and like it starts
Speaker 2: to change at that point. But again, don Quixote is
Speaker 2: the early fifteen hundreds, and you know, literacy that widespread
Speaker 2: and it's very long.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what it did for it, don Quixote did
Speaker 1: for the chivroalric literature what walk Hard did to music biographies.
Speaker 1: For a while, everyone's like, pack it up, Yes.
Speaker 2: We're done. Back from this right again in fifteen years, okay. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then and then they'll do Elvis and we'll get
Speaker 2: the He's white meme and He's and Austin, Austin Butler
Speaker 2: will do that will not be able to lose the voice.
Speaker 2: It'll be great anyway.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, see, thank you for the question. We got a
Speaker 2: couple more. This one is from drop Tuning, who says,
Speaker 2: just wondering about medieval understandings of slash around, serious voice,
Speaker 2: the responsible service of alcohol, where our publican ancestors obliged
Speaker 2: to withhold access to the sweet sweet nectar of social
Speaker 2: success if we appeared absolutely fuck eyed or did they
Speaker 2: just keep pocketing the coins, importance to the door when
Speaker 2: it looked like we're about to require buckets and audust
Speaker 2: Also what we're medieval attitudes and morerace towards public drunkenness
Speaker 2: in generals cheers legends. This burning missive was sent from
Speaker 2: a pub toilet xo xo.
Speaker 1: Hell, yes, it's my people, the drenks. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful culture. Yeah, this is a good question, and
Speaker 1: the answer is, for the most part, no, they don't
Speaker 1: really have a whole lot of rules about this. There
Speaker 1: are some amusing illustrations from the Middle Ages of like
Speaker 1: women who are perhaps taverner is kind of like holding
Speaker 1: men's heads while they puke outside. Yeah, they're like, stew
Speaker 1: this way homeie.
Speaker 2: We're not that different.
Speaker 1: Surely it's so beautiful. So yeah, you know we.
Speaker 2: Oh no the audio cut out again, Well, stitch this
Speaker 2: together and.
Speaker 1: Post because it is like, you know, there aren't that
Speaker 1: many places that are kind of like drinking out posts anyway.
Speaker 1: Like it's you're probably gonna be going to like a
Speaker 1: local lady in your neighborhood who like bruised the best beer,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be like her house. So basically you're
Speaker 1: gonna get cut off when she's sick of your bullshit. Right,
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be like something that is legislated. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be like she's like I swear to fucking Christ
Speaker 1: John not again, like you know, your bar and that
Speaker 1: kind of a thing. So yeah, it's it's not anything
Speaker 1: that is kind of like legally yeah done. It's more
Speaker 1: about like what what the good people of your neighborhood
Speaker 1: will put up with?
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. Sorry, if you heard my voice there in
Speaker 2: the middle of Eleanor talking my audio, the audio completely
Speaker 2: cut out and I thought I had lost I thought
Speaker 2: i'd lost it again, So, uh, if you heard that,
Speaker 2: just out Sorry about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah sorry, Like we're doing our best out here under
Speaker 1: circumstances today, so we appreciate your patience every Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it like, uh, they don't have standard they
Speaker 2: don't have standard weight to measures, they don't have stuff
Speaker 2: like that. It's uh, they don't have foods standards. I
Speaker 2: mean and like to be honest, Like when you cut
Speaker 2: off a person, uh, A lot of times varies on
Speaker 2: like how they seem, you know, like you at a
Speaker 2: certain point, like I know there are rules about cutting
Speaker 2: people off, but also like bars can cut you off
Speaker 2: a lot earlier if like you know, you're you're kind
Speaker 2: of type of a lightweight or something like that and
Speaker 2: you don't handle it very well. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think that's probably always been true. I think you probably
Speaker 2: had the uh, the proprietress of the house throwing something
Speaker 2: heavy at you. Uh, if you're the kind of person
Speaker 2: who couldn't hold two beers, you know you just like like, dude,
Speaker 2: that's like I.
Speaker 1: Told you you were barred. Piece you know, like.
Speaker 2: Drinking like the two percent ABV. It's like how do
Speaker 2: you even get drunk off of that going on in
Speaker 2: your body?
Speaker 1: Like they're like, okay, you can come in, but you
Speaker 1: can only have a small beer.
Speaker 2: God damn it. Yeah, I'm just imagining like some woman
Speaker 2: chasing like like she's chasing you with the frying pan.
Speaker 2: But it's not like a it's not like a it's
Speaker 2: not like a sexist it's not like a sexist depiction
Speaker 2: of it. She's literally like, get the fuck out, shut up,
Speaker 2: no one, no one wants to sing. Stop requesting uh
Speaker 2: sweet Home Alabama from the bar. For the love of fuck.
Speaker 2: He has to change instruments to do it.
Speaker 1: Stop. He doesn't know what Alabama is.
Speaker 2: None of us will for hundreds of years.
Speaker 1: Stop. Fuck.
Speaker 2: I'm so tired of you, John anyway, drop tuning. Thank
Speaker 2: you uh very much for the question. Uh yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna tie one on and then you know, uh scene blank, blackout, drunk,
Speaker 2: last one we got Uh oh, folks, we got a copy.
Speaker 2: Can't namer here. This is a different user. A web
Speaker 2: presumer is an ekeboo, a different.
Speaker 1: We'll talk you. God, damn it.
Speaker 2: I hate you people, mister President, a second joke naming
Speaker 2: convention has hit the discord.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: As revolutionaries, we look forward to the current order being
Speaker 2: thrown down and replaced by a new, better world. I
Speaker 2: recently read an argument we can't figure out where that
Speaker 2: this worldview is fundamentally informed by a millenarian Christian worldview.
Speaker 2: Is that really true? Or precushion uprising like Spartacus in
Speaker 2: the first century BCE doing something fundamentally different from a
Speaker 2: modern revolution. And you can't see this listeners, but steam
Speaker 2: is currently shooting out of my ears. My face is
Speaker 2: uh is red. It has turned the color of a tomato,
Speaker 2: and uh yeah, I have to go lie down for
Speaker 2: a bit.
Speaker 1: Listen. I gotta tell you to me, this sounds like
Speaker 1: some misappropriation of Mark Fisher, right, Like this sounds like
Speaker 1: some some capitalist realism that that is sneaking in. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that what I would say is like,
Speaker 1: you know, the term revolutionary isn't something that we see
Speaker 1: thrown around, but that that's true, right, because like that's
Speaker 1: that as a convention in terms of like a word
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in the same way. Like you know,
Speaker 1: for example, during the Peasants Uprising, right, they're not like,
Speaker 1: oh we're having a revolution, this is a revolt, right,
Speaker 1: They're just like, I'm gonna fucking tear this shit down.
Speaker 1: And I mean I speak of the Peasants Uprising fondly
Speaker 1: as always very excited for the movie. I hope that
Speaker 1: everyone will become a watt Tyler head when that when
Speaker 1: that comes out. But I think it's important to point
Speaker 1: this out because what we're what we see right from
Speaker 1: rebellions like this is that there is a huge, huge
Speaker 1: desire to overthrow systems which oppress ordinary people, and when
Speaker 1: ordinary people have the possibility of doing so, they fucking
Speaker 1: take that, right, they take that. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't like saying that, like, oh yeah, this is
Speaker 1: like necessarily Christian Millenerianist in character. I mean, I suppose
Speaker 1: if what you're saying is that you're saying that the
Speaker 1: world will end if we do something differently, but I
Speaker 1: don't think that's what we're saying at all. I think
Speaker 1: that what we're actually saying is that, like the world
Speaker 1: can be better, right, Yeah, Like I mean, sure, surely,
Speaker 1: surely that's what we're going for here, right lads, like
Speaker 1: or we're going we're going for a better world, not
Speaker 1: a not an ended world. And I don't necessarily agree
Speaker 1: to to that as a as a way of relating
Speaker 1: to it. Is that is that about how you feel, Luke?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think I think I think I
Speaker 2: have two things with this. The first is that the
Speaker 2: idea of revolutionaries, meaning people who have set out with
Speaker 2: a distinct political goal to overthrow the specific political system
Speaker 2: that exists within a nation and replace it with something
Speaker 2: different or and I mean later replacing like entire world systems,
Speaker 2: you know, capitalism, communism, et cetera, et cetera. That is
Speaker 2: a fundamentally early modern and modern concept. Like because as
Speaker 2: Ellen were said, think of what Tyler. What Tyler was
Speaker 2: not going in and saying we don't need a king,
Speaker 2: we need a legislative assembly and something else. No, he
Speaker 2: was saying, as almost all of these people did, in
Speaker 2: at least in Europe and and a lot in West
Speaker 2: Asia and North Africa, the king's evil advisors. It's the
Speaker 2: king's evil advisors that are doing this, or even if
Speaker 2: they wanted to go after the king, it was not
Speaker 2: phrased in like we're going to completely overturn the system.
Speaker 2: For example, in China, the mandate of Heaven system was
Speaker 2: used from to twenty ish BCE until nineteen twelve CE.
Speaker 2: And it though when those things happened, even when an
Speaker 2: outside force came in, like when the Mongols came in
Speaker 2: or when the Gin came in from without and imposed
Speaker 2: this rule on them, they didn't change the system. They
Speaker 2: adapted themselves to it. As we talked about when we
Speaker 2: talk about the Mongols, Kublai Khan did not change China
Speaker 2: into a system like the other khanates or even like
Speaker 2: or even like how Timigin had done. He adapted his
Speaker 2: Mongol sensibilities to China and assimilated to it. And that's
Speaker 2: what people did. So even those weren't technically revolutions as
Speaker 2: we understand them. So like the idea that it's fundamentally
Speaker 2: millenarian makes no sense to me because Christian millenarianism have
Speaker 2: been around for fifteen hundred years. When when like the
Speaker 2: English Civil War, and when you start when you start
Speaker 2: having these first like small ideas of like revolutions and
Speaker 2: what that can mean, and then you have the American Revolution,
Speaker 2: which I think is vastly overrated in a lot of terms,
Speaker 2: but it is a revolution. It does exchange one political
Speaker 2: system for another and throw off a rule, which is
Speaker 2: definitionally a revolution.
Speaker 1: But like.
Speaker 2: I just don't understand how it can be. I also
Speaker 2: don't understand how it can be MILLENERI And from the
Speaker 2: standpoint of despite the fact that revolutions today are different
Speaker 2: in terms of definitions and specifics, I don't they You're
Speaker 2: still following the same idea that people have been doing
Speaker 2: since the first like Slaver volt that happened, or the
Speaker 2: first like time of vassal city state insumer got tired
Speaker 2: of error or you know whoever, or lagash and tried
Speaker 2: to fight back, and they probably were defeated. But like
Speaker 2: that idea, that yearning to like uh, to be free
Speaker 2: of these things, and to be free of in a
Speaker 2: lot of cases like noble constraints or kingly prerogatives and
Speaker 2: things like that. They couldn't describe it in the modern
Speaker 2: terms that we can because we have class consciousness, or
Speaker 2: we should. They can't describe it like that. But that
Speaker 2: is the same impulse, the impulse that you feel right
Speaker 2: now when the burning hatred in your skin because your government,
Speaker 2: because America or England or anyone in the world, any
Speaker 2: place in the world, does this fascist like oppression and
Speaker 2: they other these people and they try to get them
Speaker 2: killed by either like their fascist police squads or like
Speaker 2: random civilians who have been worked into a frenzy. The
Speaker 2: utter hatred and the risible nature that it brings, like
Speaker 2: the visceral like lump in your throat that comes up
Speaker 2: where you just want to scream and tear things apart
Speaker 2: because it's so awful, is the same thing, that same
Speaker 2: sensation is what what Tyler and the people who followed
Speaker 2: him felt, is what is what they felt when they
Speaker 2: overthrew uh the dynasty of Chinshi Wandi in in China,
Speaker 2: but before the birth of Christ. It's the same thing
Speaker 2: because they felt this outward oppression and they felt those
Speaker 2: tendencies that it had, and they did not like it.
Speaker 2: And that basic thing is something that has existed as
Speaker 2: far as we can tell since civilization began, because lagash
Speaker 2: And and er And and the bigger cities in sumer
Speaker 2: weren't like the other city states, weren't just like, oh yeah, great,
Speaker 2: you guys are the top dogs and we're just we're
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to accept the lesser status and
Speaker 2: be treated like shit, Like no, somebody had to be
Speaker 2: subserviated into that and through through some degree, and they
Speaker 2: rebel and we rebel. We have different words for it.
Speaker 2: Our understanding of it is much different. And that's okay,
Speaker 2: because the understanding of the understanding of how to overturn
Speaker 2: the mandate of Heaven was much different for the Song
Speaker 2: dynasty and the Nine hundreds than it was for the
Speaker 2: Han and and you know, and and when Mao and
Speaker 2: Shankaishek when when they were fighting it out, their understandings
Speaker 2: of that and their embrace or disdain for those past
Speaker 2: tendencies were completely different because technology and politics and ideology
Speaker 2: have moved, you know, hundreds a thousand years in the future.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't, I just don't. I don't even
Speaker 2: see how those two things are directly connected in this
Speaker 2: unless you are saying that revolution shouldn't changed in such
Speaker 2: a degree because of how obsessed uh, like Cromwell and
Speaker 2: his guys were with like the end of the world.
Speaker 1: But but I mean, like that's not all revolution Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, like, let us let's not like say that
Speaker 1: the Puritans are like the vanguard of you know, the
Speaker 1: theespree of the revolutionary Like I simply refuse to believe that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there is just it. It's just
Speaker 1: so much more complex than that, you know. And I
Speaker 1: do think that, you know, ordinary people know when they're
Speaker 1: being fund I mean, we were talking about this on
Speaker 1: the ghost episode for Patrons for you know, the Sumerian
Speaker 1: ghosts the other day. I mean, like even within like
Speaker 1: their creation myths, they're talking about strikes amongst the gods,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like if if the gods are
Speaker 1: going on strike, then it stands to reason that they
Speaker 1: have a concept of people going on strike. We know
Speaker 1: that that enslaved people go on strike in ancient Rome.
Speaker 1: The friend and colleague Sarah Bonn has written a really
Speaker 1: great book on this recently about a strikes in ancient Rome,
Speaker 1: which you should really go check out. It's really excellent.
Speaker 1: She's an absolute fucking feed on. Oh my gosh, she's
Speaker 1: so intelligent. But it's, yeah, like, this is something that
Speaker 1: is that is simply extant in when you are dealing
Speaker 1: with humans, because we actually know that we deserve better
Speaker 1: than this. And I just don't think that you can tell,
Speaker 1: you know, like the slaves who rise up against their
Speaker 1: oppressors in Rome, that this is a Christian Millinerian. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it works like that.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, the slaves that fought for their freedom and died,
Speaker 2: and the slaves who every once in a very great
Speaker 2: while would occasionally be able to like purchase their own
Speaker 2: freedom with with blood, which was was rare but did
Speaker 2: happen on on very on minor occasions. And uh, you know,
Speaker 2: there were slaves who escaped during even though the Spartacus
Speaker 2: rebellions and the survivor servile revolts were put down. Some
Speaker 2: of those slaves definitely did escape, but like the first
Speaker 2: work stoppage happened the third century bceves in the mid
Speaker 2: two thousands or early or late two thousand, sorry in Egypt,
Speaker 2: the people were like, you're not paying us enough, we
Speaker 2: don't have enough grain, and and and the government had,
Speaker 2: you know, they had to deal with that. And I
Speaker 2: mean that is it's the same thing. They're not gonna
Speaker 2: call it. They're not calling for a quote unquote union.
Speaker 2: They're not calling for a guild or anything like that,
Speaker 2: but they are saying like, hey man, fuck you pay me,
Speaker 2: like hey you fuck you treat me right like you know,
Speaker 2: it's the same, treat me like I treat me like
Speaker 2: I like, like you know, like I want to be treated,
Speaker 2: you know. And I mean the thing about Christianity is
Speaker 2: like I don't even if like there was a revolutionary
Speaker 2: undercurrent of Christianity, but every time it comes to the surface,
Speaker 2: it gets beaten back down with force. Like the revolutionary
Speaker 2: undercurrent that it had of like changing the status of
Speaker 2: slaves and overthrowing things was under was devalued and underplayed
Speaker 2: heavily once it became the religion of the Roman Empire.
Speaker 2: And then of course in the fifteen hundreds, when the
Speaker 2: German peasants revolted because they thought it meant that they
Speaker 2: were going to get to be equal.
Speaker 1: To the uh, Luther put them in their place.
Speaker 2: Luther allied with the Catholic and the nobility again to
Speaker 2: put to have them put down, and I mean they
Speaker 2: were brutally put down. So like, I yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: see it, but thank you.
Speaker 1: Uh, interesting question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. And I mean I don't
Speaker 2: I've never heard that idea, so it is thought provoking
Speaker 2: to like think about, like how that would come up.
Speaker 2: But I just don't. I don't think either of us
Speaker 2: see it because in the material worldview, it doesn't. I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's born out by history, even if
Speaker 2: you take Marxism out of the equation. I don't think
Speaker 2: it's born out by history because I think the same
Speaker 2: ideas were still present in uh nascent or uh like uh,
Speaker 2: you know pro protein forms. Excuse me, there we go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's it's a little bit global,
Speaker 1: northern and its sensibilities. Yeah that yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: that's fair to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't mean that, uh, people who are Christian
Speaker 2: Millinerians who believe in Christianity cannot be revolutionaries. Far from it.
Speaker 2: But uh, there there are people. There are revolutionaries right
Speaker 2: now who are who are fighting. There are Christians right
Speaker 2: now in Gaza who are who are being uh massacred
Speaker 2: alongside their Muslim and even uh Jewish comrades and uh
Speaker 2: and and you know, so yeah, it's folks. I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't think revolution is that shallow, and I definitely
Speaker 2: don't think uh Christianity is the one that came up
Speaker 2: with it given all of the stuff that predates that.
Speaker 2: And uh yeah, but at the same time, it's always
Speaker 2: cool to talk about this stuff so we can kind
Speaker 2: of bounce it around and and see what's going on.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: But yeah, a weed presumer equals in ikebu. Thank you
Speaker 2: very much for or the thought provooking question that's going
Speaker 2: to do it for us today. Again, Please do subscribe
Speaker 2: to the Patreon it helps keep the show going. Patreon
Speaker 2: dot com, slash wnstpod eleanor what's going on with you?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, mostly I'm just into Amsterdam, aren't I I think? Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you haven't gone to check me out over on
Speaker 1: Canceling Daddy yet. Please do that because that'll be good
Speaker 1: as per usual. Really, mostly the book madness is upon me,
Speaker 1: and that's the later thing that's going on with me.
Speaker 1: When I do something else, I will absolutely let all
Speaker 1: you honeys know.
Speaker 2: Yep, you can find me on the usual places. Luca
Speaker 2: is amazing, You can find me people's history of the
Speaker 2: Old Republic if you want to hear me up about
Speaker 2: Star Wars from Lake I don't know, six years ago
Speaker 2: or whatever, or even eight years ago. No, anyway, anyway, y'all,
Speaker 2: thank you all very much for listening. We'll see you
Speaker 2: next time.
Speaker 1: Keep it so sloppy, yeah,