Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is
not intended for all audiences.
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advice.
Speaker 3: Welcome out this store. You're struggling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you believe Margaret called me a Nazi again?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 5: Hi?
Speaker 1: This is Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that
the worst monsters are real. This is episode three oh
three of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that
the worst monsters are real. In case you haven't heard,
which would be really weird because we repeated every single episode.
There's a thing called Sword and Scale Television. At swordscale
dot com, we have about sixteen episodes now of the show,
true crime hour long each some of the best true
crime you'll find. Go check it out and support independent creators. Hey,
how about them terrorists. We're not here to talk about
terrorism or politics or any of that, but there is
a common thread, betwe between all of those things and
what we talk about here, and that's that humanity is
at the center of it all across the country. Over
the last I don't know a couple of years. Ever
since BLM, we've seen ramping up an escalation, if you will,
of dissent across college campuses all over the country, and
it hasn't just been isolated to called campuses. It's an infection,
a virus, if you will, spreading across the young people
of today, a need to stand up for those who
have been wrongfully oppressed. When you have no understanding of
history and you operate strictly on emotion, sometimes you stand
up for the wrong person, like oh, I don't know
a terrorist. Sometimes you just start spewing terrorist propaganda literally
and prevent other students from getting to their class, other
people from getting to work, and contributing to society, the
society we're all supposedly trying to build here. Standing up
for the wrong person, no matter how good your intentions are,
can have disastrous consequences. Gays for Gaza would be a
fantastic example of that if you played it out to
its inevitable conclusion. But again, we're not here to talk
about politics, just pointing out these similarities between the story
we're about to tell you in society at large, because
that's what we do here. We tell you stories of
real people that have really happened in a way where
we try to make it apply to your everyday life,
or in scale, isn't really a true crime podcast. It's
a human nature podcast. It's a podcast about right and
wrong and how we figure out what's what, how we
incentivize the good, and how we the bat It's about
making sense of it all in a time when making
sense of things has become a bit of a challenge.
I'm sure thirty five year old Michelle Rogers, who lived
in Lancing, Michigan, in twenty fifteen, understood that challenge. She
was trying to stand up for the wrong person. Lancing
is a pretty typical Midwest city. It's a state capital,
so you've got the big government buildings downtown, but most
of the city seems a lot more low key. The
neighborhoods are quiet and lined with trees. Most of the
houses are modest, nothing too flashy, but comfortable. It's the
kind of place where people say hi when they pass
each other on the street, but everyone, you know, mostly
keeps to themselves, like we do in every major city
in America. A lot of scary people out there, as
we all know. Anyway, Lancing used to thrive because of
the auto industry. A lot of places in Michigan were
decimate made it after the auto industry kind of went
overseas you could still see parts of that history, and
it is really quite interesting and beautiful. Some of those
old buildings are incredible, a symbol of bustling capitalism and
growth at its peak. But we're living in a different
time and a lot of those factories have closed down.
Now it's more about schools, government jobs, and local businesses.
The few that are left. People tend to stick to
their routines work, family, maybe catching a ball game or
heading to a park on the weekends. Even though the
crime rate is a bit higher, so is the community
and level of neighborhood vigilance. Michelle was an independent and
self sufficient woman with a great career and almost everything
she wanted in life. She had everything except for one thing,
someone to go out to dinner or dancing with. One day,
feeling the need for adult company, she signed up to
a dating site. She wasn't looking for anything serious, especially
with a young son to care for, just somebody to
hang out with, have a couple of dates, have a
little fun, no harm, no foul. She swiped left and
right through dozens of pictures and profiles, seeing if anyone
matched her energy, and then after a couple swipes, she
found Matthew Terry's picture. It popped up on her screen
and she was hmm interested. At the same time, Matthew
was checking out Michelle's profile. He liked her vibe and
the fact that they had common interests. They probably just
thought she was hot, because that's how guys think. But
whatever the reason, they hooked up they started dating. Michelle
kept her guard and didn't want to get too serious,
but Matthew was so easy going and they had such
a great time together. It just kind of flirt. He
was attentive, not just to her but to her son.
He took him fishing and sled riding, and even her
son liked Matthew. The fact that they were so compatible
came as a surprise to Michelle, and she was starting
to believe Matthew when he said he thought they were soulmates.
It's easy to get caught up in that.
Speaker 3: I don't know. What's the location of your emergency. It's
across the street from.
Speaker 6: Six twenty five Worthington Drive.
Speaker 3: Ok, what's going on here?
Speaker 6: There's a man who had a woman shamed on the
ground in their driveway there fighting.
Speaker 3: She's screaming, why are you doing this to me?
Speaker 6: Literally rolling in the driveway right now. Perfect, she screams
the help right now.
Speaker 3: She's see a new weapon. I don't want that other
white black ash just fanner white, okay, wearing.
Speaker 6: She's got a green T shirt and jean. She's stream
called an ambulance.
Speaker 3: Okay. Is she saying what she needs an ambulance for?
Speaker 1: That would be a no. She did not say what
she needed an ambulance for. You could tell because she's
screaming for her fucking life.
Speaker 6: She's screaming, somebody please help me.
Speaker 3: Okay, hang on, just taking a lot to stress with
ambulance go ahead page for an unknown medical at six
twenty five war things and it's going to be some fortifier.
Speaker 1: Can you tell this operator just doesn't like her job.
I don't think she'd like any job, to be honest
with you, But I digress. It was definitely a fight
and Michelle was determined to survive. It started in the house,
but now Matthew was assaulting Michelle in the driveway and
neighbors could see it all going down. It was horrifying.
Speaker 7: I do.
Speaker 6: It's directly across the street from me, a canhouse with
a red door, black for a CUD in the drive way.
She has her pinned right to the ground, and she's streaming,
bloody letter.
Speaker 3: What if he's saying, he's not saying a word, and
she's just she keeps streaming help me, help me, help me,
and he's not saying a single word. Are you looking
at her?
Speaker 6: I mean he's literally on top of her, like just
like yet right now, and he has her in like
a chofold with her legs over her head, her.
Speaker 3: Legs over her head.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she's just beating her head on the ground. He
has her hair. Now, who's running?
Speaker 3: And said.
Speaker 4: Again?
Speaker 6: He went inside and she's up. She's all bloody, ma'am.
Speaker 3: They're right there, haven't. I mean, Jones is coming. They don't.
They're right there. Ry Andrews is coming. Shit, just sit
right there, just set.
Speaker 6: She covered in blood.
Speaker 3: Okay, what is she saying? A baby in the house.
It's okay. And ambulance is on the way. It's okay.
Speaker 1: Even though Matthew was completely wasted, he used his knowledge
as a wrestling coach to subdue her. Combined with his
rage and adrenaline, it was a deadly combination. But finally
Michelle dragged herself across the street to her neighbor's house
for safety.
Speaker 3: Yes, their day. What's her name?
Speaker 6: You're Michelle Rodgers in the name of Matt Terry.
Speaker 3: Did you have a weapon?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 3: His name is Matt Terry. Matt Terry. He had a
knife with him. I'm sorry he had it on him. Okay,
hang on second, yep, I can hear the Sireen's okay
and everything six twenty five Worthington. The mail had a knife.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 3: We have an angela coming in.
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: Okay. Did he thrown her with a knife?
Speaker 6: She covered in blood?
Speaker 3: And did she looked at are you cut?
Speaker 7: Michelle?
Speaker 3: Are you cut? Somewhere? She stabbed you? She's been stabbed?
Speaker 6: She said, where have you been?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I seen the them, honey, Where were you stabbed?
Speaker 6: Where?
Speaker 3: Where were you scammed?
Speaker 4: That?
Speaker 6: And the shoulder?
Speaker 3: Your stands the neck and the shoulder.
Speaker 1: Michelle was in bad shape, but she was less worried
about herself than she was about her nine month old son,
who was still in the house with his drunk and
violent dad.
Speaker 3: You can't even go down their way if they're coming.
Speaker 7: Three jobs.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's for sure is successfully covered.
Speaker 6: And like, Michelle, where do you Okay?
Speaker 3: Now they know that your son's and now, okay, you
still have a knife as far as I go. Nice, Okay,
I need her to set it down somewhere. It's sitting.
Speaker 6: It's hurt.
Speaker 7: The knife that she has on the ground next to her,
it's the nice she took from him.
Speaker 6: That they were multiple knives.
Speaker 3: In the house.
Speaker 1: Another neighbor also phoned nine one one and wanted to help,
but was too afraid to ask Michelle in because she
was elderly and lived alone. She could easily become a
second victim. So she did the next best thing. She
took out a blanket and covered Michelle with it. The
sirens were getting closer. Michelle was running out of time.
But here she is to tell you exactly what happened
to her that night. Let me just set some things
up first. She was actually coming home from being out
with Matthew that night, but she was forced to leave
Matthew behind at the bar because he was in no
shape to drive.
Speaker 9: Even months prior to this, I was I met with
an attorney to see how I could get out of
the relationship, and it just seemed like, you know, there
was no good way, But so I went to his
parents' house and I picked up our son, and as
I was grabbing him, they're like, well, you know, where's Matt.
And at that time, I said, well, I don't know.
He's still down there drinking. I don't know, don't care whatever,
grabbed the baby and I laughed, and I went home
and I fed the baby and put him to bed upstairs,
and I was just sitting there watching TV. And like,
the whole house had an open layout, so the living room,
in the kitchen, you know, you could see through there.
There was like a little bar area. And on the
backslider door, I hear a knock. I'm like, okay, what
the hell? And so I look up and it's Matt
knocking on the back door.
Speaker 1: Michelle says that besides being drunk off his face, he
seemed angry. Alcohol sometimes does that to you, pulls out
all the angry demons inside and they start lashing out.
But she sat on the couch, ignoring him. Well, he
tried to make a sandwich keyword try. Then all of
a sudden, she has no idea what it is, she said,
but she must have said something because he came at
her running angry and ready for a fight.
Speaker 9: The only way I can describe it is like kind
of like a football player, right, like they're running at you,
like they're going to tackle you. And I remember like
him coming at me, and I braced myself with my
arms in front of my chest and I'm like, you know,
what are you doing? And then that's when he made
contact with me and pushed me into the front door,
which was directly behind me at the time, and we
both fell to the floor. Then you know, we're going
around on the floor and he is essentially treating me
like he's wrestling with me. Like I could recognize wrestling moves, like,
you know, because he's a wrestling cot and so I
recognized some of these things he was trying to like
pin me down in and there were some that were
really scary, like he was putting me in chokeholds to
the point where I was starting to black out and
feel dizzy, and somehow, you know, don't ask me how
I would manage to break free from these things or
like rig a lot of them, and then he would
just keep you know, putting me in more on the floor.
So we're on the floor, he starts punching me in
the face. He's punching me in the chest.
Speaker 1: Michelle was face down now trying to scoot her way
back to the carpeted area of the living room so
she could get a grip and push herself up. The
tile in the kitchen was covered in blood. Now that
he'd broken her nose and knocked her teeth out, he
was relentless, and he dragged her back into the kitchen
each time. Then he started banging her head repeatedly on
the floor.
Speaker 9: I will never forget the black trash can that I
was staring at that whole time. Like I'm laying there
staring at this trash can, just watching it like fade
in and fade out. Is my head's getting pummeled on
the floor, and the only thing I can think is,
holy shit, don't don't pass out, Like, don't pass out.
And for some reason, the thought popped in my head,
you know, I had learned it somewhere apparently in my life,
was that, you know, don't tense up your muscles, because
if you tense up your muscles, like you're going to
have more damage. And so I tried to relax as
much as I could while he's doing this, And I
don't know if that helped or not. But that was
one of the thoughts that kind of you know, passed
through my mind.
Speaker 1: At last, it seemed like Matthew had stopped. Michelle sat up,
trying to steady herself, but her back was to him.
Suddenly he came at her again, this time with a
kitchen knife, stabbing her in the front of the neck.
Panicked and bleeding, she ran towards the garage. She hit
the button to open the door, gasping for air as
he stayed close behind. As the door started to rise,
Matthew forced it back down, slamming on the button. With
only a small gap left, Michelle rolled under it, desperate
to get out, but Matthew was right behind her, able
to roll under the door as well. Michelle's relationship with
Matthew started out very differently a while back. There were signs,
but she could have never known that one day she'd
be in fear for her life.
Speaker 9: Yeah, matt and I had, you know, we had a
lot of fun adventures together. He had quite a broad
group of friends, and so there seemed like there was
always something going on. Somebody was having a party or organizing,
you know, a shortification over the weekend, or just something.
And so we were always really busy. But there did
come a time, you know, within a few months after
doing all these really fun things that one hundred percent
of the time involved drinking, that I realized he had
a problem.
Speaker 1: Matthew took the good times too far. When they were
out with friends. She sometimes had to remind him to
drink less. He just wasn't the same person when he'd
had one too many, and she wanted to get him
home safe.
Speaker 9: I noticed the drinking pretty quick quickly. There were a
few instances where he, you know, would drink so much
that he would just pass out. Specifically, I remember going
down like a lazy river trip, so we were all
on tubes on this river, just floating down, and he
was passed out on his tube and just sleeping the
whole way because he had drank so much in the beginning,
he didn't wake up at all. And I kept thinking,
you know what happens if he just falls over in
the water and you can't touch the bottom right like,
I can't lift him out, so someone would have to
save him because he was just he wouldn't wake up.
So things like that that would happen throughout these activities
where he would just be obliterated all the time.
Speaker 1: It was a few months into the relationship and Michelle
was a runner preparing for a big race. She thought
it through and was going to break things off as
soon as the race was over. She just didn't want
to take on someone who had a potential drinking problem.
But as the race came closer, she started to feel ill.
She took a test and realized that, oh shit, I'm pregnant.
Things continued normally for the next year and a half.
Matthew was a good dad and for the most part,
a loving partner. There were just times when he took
his partying a little too far, and it concerned Michelle
even more now that she had a child with him.
On Saint Patrick's Day of twenty seventeen, the couple went
out with friends for the day. They stopped for lunch
at an Irish pub and had a couple of beers.
Then they moved on to another Irish bar, where Michelle
slowed down but Matthew did not. By six pm, Michelle
was ready to go out, but found Matthew in another
bar next door. He was the only one in the place,
and he was so plastered he couldn't even talk That's
when she decided to just go home alone. I don't blamer,
nobody wants to put up with a drunk Michelle walked
a mile and a half through the snowy cold weather
just to get away from her significant other, just to
get home. Exhausted, she then drove to the home of
Matt's parents and picked up the kids, and when she
got back home, she sank into the couch. Just a
couple of hours later, a very different version of Matthew
than the man she loved showed up at the screen door,
knocking to get in. This seemingly ai representation of the
man she loved proceeded to stumble through the kitchen and
started to make himself a sandwich. Michelle sat in the
open concept living room where she could watch TV but
still keep an eye on him. He was drunk, but
things were peaceful, that is until they weren't. Michelle was
in the hospital fighting for her life now, and Matthew
was arraigned in the morning after the attack. The lead detective,
who coincidentally shares the same first name, remembers what Matthew
said from jail.
Speaker 2: Hello, my name's Matthew Crumback. I'm a retired detective with
a City of Llansing police department here in Michigan. They
didn't really discuss too much about what Matt had done.
He was very vague about what he had done, kind
of claimed that he didn't quite remember well what had happened,
because I don't think that he wanted to tell his
father what he had done. He made a comment to
his dad that she was in the hospital and wife
was she in the hospital, And he was rather vague
and trying his explanation, was trying to get his dad
to say, Hey, could you come down here and bail
me out? Could you put some money together? Could you
get me out of this situation. I don't want to
lose my job. It was more concerned obviously about himself
than he was Michelle. He did not plead guilty. He
was transferred out to the Ingham County jail. Ultimately, his
family did bail him out on bail, a substantial bail.
I believe it was around a quarter million dollars. His
family had the ability to bail him out prior to
the trial. It was assigned to court date and then
we went to court and he pleaded not guilty.
Speaker 1: When it was all said and done. Michelle survived, but
had the assault continued even for just another second, the
outcome could have been very different.
Speaker 9: And I just remember, and this might sound a little crazy, right,
but you know how you have like your voice in
your head. It was like this other voice that was
guiding me to do certain things right, and this other
voice like yelled at me, and it's like, grab the
fucking knife, like he's going to kill you, and so like,
as he came down for the fourth, the fourth stab,
I like grabbed the knife and I remember I had
the blade end of it, and I'm laying on my
back and I'm grabbing this knife and I'm literally pulling
it across my face from right side to the left
as he's trying to push it in, you know, push
it forward into my face. And all I could think
was like, oh my god, he's going to poke my
eye out. He's gonna like I don't know what's going
to happen. Somehow I managed to get this thing pulled
across my face. And as I did, and I pulled
it to the other side of my body, the knife
fell kind of like to my left side and I
was able to sort of talk it underneath me enough
and sort of roll to my left a little bit
where he wasn't able to find it.
Speaker 1: Michelle had seven stab wounds, a broken nose, loss of teeth,
and head injuries. He even bit her face several times
in an attempt to wrestle the knife away. Matthew, on
the other hand, barely had a scratch on himself. Clearly
Michelle had met a monster, but no one else in
Matthew's life seemed to view him that way. I guess
he was really good at hiding his illness. A lot
of people are. He was quite a popular guy, in fact,
so he was probably pretty good at it. At trial,
his family brought a numerous character witnesses, and matt himself testified,
trying to claim that all of Michelle's injuries were the
result of her attack on him, and that he was
merely defending himself. Don't you hate it when the aggressor
plays victim. Seems to happen a lot these days.
Speaker 2: He was charged with attempted murder. His family was able
to secure him a private attorney that was reputable in
the city of Lancing, and that he requested that there
would be a lesser charge included under attempted murder, which
would be great bodily harm less than murder. The jury
did find him guilty of the lesser charge of great
bodily harm less than murder, and he was sentenced to
three years in prison in the Michigan Department of Corrections,
which he did serve three years. I believe that Matt Terry,
now that I'm retired, can say this, should have definitely
been found guilty of attempted murder, and you should still
be in custody. In the state of Michigan. Juries are
wishy Washington, and I hope every person that said on
that jury is well aware of what Matt Terry did
in the aftermath of being released from the Michigan Department
of Corrections, and I hope they live with that every
single day of their life.
Speaker 1: Matthew was out in just three years, and Michelle was petrified.
Speaker 9: As soon as I found out he was getting paroled,
I had started looking for jobs out of state. I
knew that if he was going to stay anywhere, he
would stay with his parents, and his parents were literally
twenty minutes from where I lived, and there was there
was no way I was going to stay, And so
I was terrified. I just knew I had to get
myself and my kids somewhere safe. So I started looking
for jobs out of state. I accepted a job offer,
you know, and then I had to file with the
courts to both try and or try and move both
of my children, so one for my oldest son, one
for my youngest son, to try and relocate them, which
isn't an easy thing to do, if you know anything
about that.
Speaker 1: Michelle felt completely isolated. It seemed like everybody around her
had been taken in by Matthew's facade. Even somebody she
wants trusted deeply turned against her, siding with the man
who nearly ended her life. Nobody talks about how lonely
it can be to confront your attacker, but holy shit,
can you imagine losing your friends because someone else was
violent towards you.
Speaker 9: So I was traveling back and forth, you know, between
states for a year, trying to get approval to move
my kids with me, and then kind of behind the scenes.
This is something I don't think anybody knows because I've
never talked about it in a podcast, But like my somehow,
because my ex husband didn't believe me. He said that
matt was too nice to be an abuser, and then
I was a liar. And so somehow he and matt
had connected behind the scenes, and they were working with
the same attorneys, trying to kind of tag team to
keep so one of them could win, so that I'd
have to stay in the state and I wouldn't be
able to move with my children.
Speaker 1: She didn't know if she'd ever be free of Matthew Terry,
but she knew one thing for sure. He wasn't done
hurting people. Living in fear that he might return consumed her,
and she knew in her heart that it certainly wasn't over.
Michelle Rogers of Lansing, Michigan, only wanted someone to share
parts of her life with. As a mechanical engineer, she
had a career, a young son, and a pretty great life.
That is until she met forty two year old Matthew Terry.
At first, the relationship was full of social gatherings and
fun dates, but just when she started seeing red flags
and planned to break up, she got pregnant. When her
son was nine months old. Matthew violently attacked her on
Saint Patrick's Day after drinking himself into a stupor. She survived,
but her life would never be the same. She carried
the physical and emotional scars of Matthew Terry's violent outburst.
The justice system failed her, with Matthew only getting a
slap on the wrist. Three years and he was out
after stabbing and beating her, leaving her just seconds from death.
How would you feel? That thought of him walking free
again filled her with dread. She knew what he was
capable of, and the idea that he was just out there, somewhere,
free walking around was a wait that she couldn't escape.
Three years just wasn't enough. Nobody learns anything in three years.
It takes a little longer than that, at least for
what he did. And then one night, suddenly who could
have predicted it? There's another call for help. In the
early hours of the morning, Hillsborough County Deputies responded to
a distress call from sixty two to eleven kidderage Drive
and Lithia, Florida, Lithia, Florida, Where the hell is Lithia, Florida?
Speaker 5: Saturday, May twenty eight, two Thousy twenty two nine.
Speaker 6: On one police BI medical I need emergency police work,
A ambulance y on the line. Yes, there's someone.
Speaker 3: Who found the line them writing her in my house.
Speaker 7: My husband just went out there or next door.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get out with my door, but my
dog is my dog is trying to stop me. Someone
someone has hurt. Uh, someone has hurt outside my houd
maam I need you to read the ass to a verification.
Don't have what happened?
Speaker 7: Laterated lashery cut, Okay, let's cut.
Speaker 3: Uh someone next door was this?
Speaker 7: She's she's that they have a major cut to their necks.
Speaker 3: You know what happened? I don't know.
Speaker 6: My husband heard someone screaming, and then we came outside.
Speaker 3: There's there's struggle in the house. Coming out of the door.
They're struggling. I'm sorry, don't even get out of the house.
Speaker 1: God, can you hear the panic in her voice. It's
giving me extreme anxiety right now. And the operator just
couldn't give a flying fanny way. The neighbors had no
idea what was going on, only that a young woman
lay bleeding from the neck near her home. The confusion
was palpable. A quiet neighborhood suddenly turned into a scene
from a nightmare, with no clear answers. For anyone. Anxiety
ridden neighbors looked out their windows as the red and
blue lights flashed from the police cars and ambulance. Horrified,
phones still in hand, they wondered what just happened? Two
people wrestling outside, screams cries for help? Who was this woman?
What happened to her? As paramedics rushed to the scene,
the police began piecing together the story, a nightmare story
that was all too similar to what happened in Michigan.
But this crime happened in Florida, and Matthew Terry lived
in Michigan, Or did he? The young woman was Kay Baker,
a math teacher and mother of two. She was barely
holding on as first responders worked to stabilize her. Blood
gushed from her neck wound and turned the green grass
to red where she'd collapsed in the yard between her
home and a neighbor's gasping for air turned to a
deadly gurgling through the deep slash in her neck that
almost decapitated her. They watched in horror as paramedics loaded
her onto a gurney and placed a sheet on her
body and over her face. She didn't make it. They
couldn't have known the full truth yet, that this wasn't
a random attack. The man responsible was not a stranger.
It was someone Kay had welcomed into her life. So
when she believed she could trust, police were already searching
for him and his name was Matthew Terry.
Speaker 3: Over a powny fire, he recorded, fine.
Speaker 10: How may I help you?
Speaker 11: Hey?
Speaker 3: We need jaw and what's going on over there? They
need your emergency?
Speaker 7: I think the dog bit him, but he was also
bleeding already. It has to do with why y'all are
out there earlier with the female that was bleeding. It's
related to that the stabbing. Yeah, man, was it a
cane but well that's something I don't know. I believe
the canine bit him, but he was already bleeding when
they found him in the woods. So is the emergency
or they said emergency And I can't talk to them
because they said to hold the station.
Speaker 3: So that's all I have for you. Okay, is the
scene secure? Yeah?
Speaker 7: They need to like now, okay, all right, We're gonna
go and thinking dear night.
Speaker 1: When deputies entered the home she shared with her boyfriend,
Matthew Terry, they found signs of a violent struggle. A
bathroom door was damaged consistent with being kicked in, and
the bedroom was locked. When they kicked it open, they
found an open window with its screen pushed outward and
lying in the yard, hinting that someone had escaped through it.
Blood traces led from inside the house through the backyard
toward a wooded area bordering Lithia Pinecrest Road. The area
was cordoned off with a yellow tape as investigators and
crime scene units meticulously examined the surroundings. Bloodhounds or let
loose to trackt Matthew's movements. Following a trail of blood
through the thick bushes near the property, they discovered more
bloodstains and a trampled area of leaves. A deputy and
his canine partner, Champ, traced the suspects approximately one hundred
yards east of the scene. Matthew was lying in dense
grass wearing only a blood soaked T shirt and underwear. Howpathetic.
He also had cuts on his neck, but later it
would be determined that he'd cut himself on purpose. And
the clip you just heard about the dog bite, Yeah
that's Champ, the canine. He took a nice chomp out
of Matthew Terry and good on him. That's a good boy, Champ,
good boy. Indeed, here is Detective Crumbback.
Speaker 2: I saw parallels in the case from Michigan to Florida,
and it's eerie on how similar these cases were. I
mean eerie on how close they were. I mean from
the point of he took a knife from a butcher
block in Michigan and assaulted Michelle. He took a knife
from a butcher block in Florida and assaulted dead victim,
and it seems like he had been consuming alcohol. There
was an argument, you know, the fact that he was
found in both cases in his underwear and T shirts
soaked in blood in Michigan. In Florida, they found him,
you know, one hundred yards away from the house, lying
in the woods with his underwear and a T shirt
soaked in blood. I'm like, wow, this looks very familiar
to me. And you know, I think that there appears
to me. I wasn't an investigator down in Florida, but
I noticed that inflicted a couple of wounds on himself
in the Florida case, and I'm thinking, well, you know,
he's probably thinking I better cook something up. You know
that self defense claim works kind of good in Michigan.
I went from fifteen to three years. Maybe I can
do the same thing here down in Florida. But it
didn't work out for him so much.
Speaker 1: Really, the only difference between the twenty seventeen assault against
Michelle and the twenty twenty two assault against kay Baker
is that Michelle was much luckier.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: She survived while k Baker bled out and died before
paramedics could reach her. That's the only difference. When Matthew
walked free in twenty twenty, another woman was already waiting
for him. This time, he didn't need to charm his
way into her life. Kay Baker, a former high school friend,
had willingly opened that door. In fact, she even testified
on his behalf at the trial in Michigan, making this
whole story even sadder.
Speaker 9: So I wasn't a part of like I couldn't be
in the courtroom because I had to testify when she
came for the twenty seventeen trial. But she did testify
to his character then. But that wasn't the only time.
She also had come into some of her child custody
and parenting. Like the court hearings to testify on his
behalf as well. You know, I don't want to say naive,
but she just she thought he was different than what
he portrayed, just like I did. And it wasn't anything
that was her fault. He had just told her a
story that she believed, and she really loved him and
cared for him, and she wanted to believe that he
was the person that he portrayed to her. And so
I don't fault her at all for being there to
speak to this, because all he ever showed her was
the good side, right, And maybe I guess I don't
know what else he showed her, but I'm assuming that,
you know, she saw the good stuff, and she believed
that he was really a good person. She'd known him
for a long time and so she truly believed that
he was that person that she was saying he was.
Speaker 1: Kay Baker was, by all accounts, the kind of person
everyone wanted in their corner. She was bubbly, compassionate, and
fiercely loyal to her family, friends, and students that she
taught As a middle school math teacher. She didn't just teach,
she mentored, encouraged, and inspired her two boys were her
entire world, and she juggled her career and motherhood with
a smile. Admirable, but like anyone else, we get lonely.
We reach out into the ether looking for companionship, and
sometimes the ether has a sense of humor, a dark
sense of humor. When Kay reconnected with Matthew Terry through
social media during his try well, she didn't see a monster,
but a man she thought she knew, the boy she
remembered from high school, the boy she was convinced had
been misunderstood. I think it's a good time in the
story to reiterate that standing for the wrong person can
be deadly. Kay became one of Matthew's staunchest defenders, even
testifying at his trial in her words, he wasn't a
dangerous man, but someone who made a terrible mistake. I've
heard that before, that whole Oh he's not bad, he's just,
you know, not as privileged or something. It's a great
excuse for doing awful things and then getting away with it.
But Kay truly believed that matt deserved another chance, and
of course so did he. Detective Crumbach and Michelle got
to know each other very well from the twenty seventeen trial,
and he remembered all of Michelle's efforts to prevent Matthew
from striking again. Instead of being resentful that Kay was
siding with her assailant. She tried to warn Kay, but
as it often does, this message fell on deaf ears.
Speaker 2: She sent her pictures. She's like, don't let this happen
to you, and she just kind of blew her off.
And Kay's friends down in Florida they believed Matt Terry.
They believed, you know, his explanation for why he was
in prison. They believed that he was wrongly convicted. You know.
They believed this bullshit story because he's that good of
a liar. And now they're all like, oh my god,
you know now our friend is dead. We shouldn't have
believed him. We should have believed Michelle. And I'm like, well,
maybe you or your children or somebody in your life
will be saved because you were touched by this. So
who knows. And that goes to tell you what a
excellent con man Matt Terry is. He is a self absorbed,
narcissistic s ob, is what he is. And he's damn
good at what he does. He can make anyone believe
the lie that he is telling them. And of course,
you know, you know, his father is going to stick
up for him for the utmost, and his brothers stuck
up for him and his family. They came to court,
they tried to victim see Michelle, they tried to intimidate her.
In fact, even after the fact the homicide in Florida,
when we were down in Florida testifying, you know, we
were asked to come down on a couple of occasions
and testify in that case. And even then, you know,
mister Terry made comments to the Tampa Journal that in
the case involving Michelle that if he really wanted to
have harmed or killed Michelle, he would have. I'm thinking
to myself, were you not in the same trial I was,
Have you not seen amount of evidence? Have you not
seen the seven stab wounds? You know, the broken molars,
the black eyes? Have you not seen the bite marks
on her face? And you're telling me that that self defense?
But that goes to tell you what kind of a
twisted individual his dad, Mark Terry is. He made those
statements after he had murdered a woman in Florida, And
it's just outrageous. In fact, he even got caught when
he was testifying on behalf of his son during the
portion of the death penalty where he had gotten caught
once again on a jail call to his son the
night before, referring to Michelle in a derogatory term, and
the prosecutor brought it to his attention, and of course
that stopped everything right there because there was an objection
and oh, you didn't bring this up. But yet it
was very clear that Matt Carey's father, Mark was talking
to his son on the phone after he had been
found guilty of first degree murder and we were testifying
in the penalty phase of a possible death penalty, that
he was still blaming Michelle Rogers for all his problems.
And I just thought, you are a piece of work,
and you're also a piece of something else. But it
just but tag goes to tell you where Matt Terry
comes from. That's that's that's how he was raised.
Speaker 1: Right after A. K. Baker's murder, her ex husband's contact
information was found in her wallet, so he and his
wife were brought to the station. Detectives knew who had
done this, but were careful with what they revealed, and
what they really wanted to know was what led up
to the violent outburst that left K bleeding out to die.
Okay sister in law share that on that day, a Friday,
K's two boys were with her and Kay's brother for
their scheduled custody weekend. At around two pm, one of
the boys called K to excitedly share that she had
received a good score on a school test. It was
the last day of the school year, and Kay began
celebrating early with her teacher friends and of course with Matthew.
When they were brought in, they had no idea what happened,
and they also had no idea that they would gain
full custody of K's two boys simply by default.
Speaker 8: Let me do this first.
Speaker 3: Do you have any contact for her, would be her
legal next of kin, parents, anything up north.
Speaker 1: The issues started at a bar at around ten o'clock
that evening. This is one of Kay's friends who was
at the bar with her.
Speaker 12: Shortly after my says he's going to ask to sit down,
and he's going to say he wants to leave because
he's kind of had his fill on the DD and
I'm like, no, sweetie, let me say I think it's
getting kind of tense over here. I know that he
was getting very upset because he thought someone was in
the bar was dancing with Kay, or Kay was actually
dancing with this gentleman as well.
Speaker 1: The he that she's referring to is, of course, Matthew Terry.
Tara decided to take on the role of de escalator
for Kay. What she's describing involves Kay and another friend
at the bar that night.
Speaker 12: The way it was, the two of them went inside,
went to the bathroom or whatever, came back and was
dancing around at the bar, and a guy came from behind.
Kay even said she didn't notice him, and Kelly collaborated
that story, and I could tell by the way Kay
was acting she really didn't notice and know what he
was talking about, but he.
Speaker 8: Was pretty upset about it.
Speaker 12: So I slid over because traditionally I was sitting in
that and you see where that versus before I was
actually sitting, Ay was where I'm standing now.
Speaker 8: I moved over because I thought, you know, maybe I was.
Speaker 12: I didn't drink as much as everyone else because I
knew I'd be driving, So I slid down and I thought,
maybe I can make this kind of go away a
little bit, because you.
Speaker 8: Know, sometimes when people drink them that kind of stuff.
Speaker 12: Happened, right, So I thought maybe I could calm this down.
And I basically just said listen, you know to him,
I said, if you.
Speaker 8: Must really love her a lot, and because you're getting.
Speaker 12: So jealous, and I said, and she loves it, but
she loves you, write back, buddy, because she didn't even
notice the guy and he looked at me and he said,
wait a minute, what are you talking about getting jealous?
Speaker 8: And he goes, I'm not jealous, and he was that's
what right there.
Speaker 7: He was upset.
Speaker 12: He was talking to her the whole time, and I
was trying to calm it down. And that's when I
realized I might have even made it worse, because that
really made him upset, that word, that jealous word, like
his eyes popped and he didn't seem drunk.
Speaker 8: Really, I know that Kay was, you know not I
wouldn't call her like falling over drunk.
Speaker 12: But they were drinking, and he was just really upset
with that word. And he goes, yeah, jealous means like
you're envious. And I said, well, you know what I mean,
like you're jealous, like you care about her that you
want to make sure she's okay. You're protective, and he goes, yeah,
because she's beautiful, look at her, and I love her.
Speaker 8: And I think I kind of just sort of appeased
him by changing around my words for him.
Speaker 12: But then Kelly kind of went back into another incident
that must have happened, I don't know, pretty close to
the night we were there, and she said, this isn't
going to be like on Saturday or whatever when we
were at Clearwater. You know, you knew this was our
celebratory night into school.
Speaker 8: You need to stop.
Speaker 12: And I think her husband realized the waters had kind
of settled and got her to stop, and there was
a little bit more back and forth, and then it
kind of chilled and I thought we were okay, but
I wasn't one hundred percent.
Speaker 8: I still felt a little bit attention.
Speaker 12: That's why I texted her right away after I left.
Speaker 1: Jara wasn't the only one at the bar who witnessed
the tension, and wasn't the only one who later checked
up on K This is her friend Kelly. Yeah, I
got there about third, took a.
Speaker 8: Did you know did they leave before you or they
still there when.
Speaker 10: You and she was coming out of the bath and reached aback,
and when we were just dancing features.
Speaker 3: Some old man.
Speaker 1: What got At that point, her friend throws her arms
up into the air, demonstrating what she saw. It was
a harmless interaction with a complete stranger, an old man.
As Kay and her friend Kelly left the bathroom, they
were in high spirits, laughing, celebrating the end of the
school year. The two were playfully dancing for just a
few seconds, enjoying the moment. Their positive energy seemed to radiate,
and an old man who happened to be walking by,
caught onto their vibe and started to mimic their carefree
dance as he moved past playfully, nothing sinister about it.
They were barely even aware of his presence.
Speaker 8: And just for the record, for the ALUs of the dance,
see what you're doing. You're just kind of raising your
arms up like you're dancing. Yes, So, I mean it
was like everybody walked away. I went to it off,
and she walked to the chair.
Speaker 7: And so she had stopped to talk to a couple
of the.
Speaker 10: Neighbor I sat down after the bathroom and he's like,
who's that guide became as dancing. Why she wasn't dancing
with anybody. Somebody came up. We were dancing and somebody
came up to.
Speaker 8: Us, and the kind was like sixy case.
Speaker 1: Friends could tell that Matthew was pissed, but no one
could understand why.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 8: I can't remember when he said it.
Speaker 10: Then I guess he went over and said something to her,
and he's just like, oh, up to it, owing up
to it.
Speaker 8: She was like what, she didn't remember what had happened.
He seemed to look like we both kind of got
on and we were.
Speaker 10: Like stepping an idiot, and so then he seemed to
get over it.
Speaker 1: But then but then suddenly he wasn't over it. Because
that's how obsessive narcissists are, especially under the influence of alcohol.
Give me a good four hours and I'll tell you
all about it. At some point after I don't know,
maybe the third or fourth drink, it becomes all about
them and they're paranoid and controlling. As soon as Kay
and Matthew left, Kelly got a call from Kay on
the other end, asking her to verify that nothing had
happened with the old man. This call came in at
around eleven forty eight pm, and within an hour she
would be dead. Kay sent one last text saying all
good before she got home, and it wasn't all good.
The attack was relentless. Deep lacerations on both hands showed
k clearly fought back. Matthew stabbed her neck four times,
and each stab went deeper. He'd already had enough practice.
One stab wound to the front right of her neck
was so deep it hit the spinal cord but narrowly
missed the carotid artery. A deep laceration to the back
of her neck extended from the right side to the left,
cutting to her spine. The most catastrophic injuries were to
the left side of her neck. These forceful jabs were
so brutal that it was like someone with a machete
hacking through dense bushes. Slashes, stabs, erratic punctures, one of
which did sever her carotid artery. If she had lived,
she would have likely lost her voice because her larynx
was also torn. This was nothing but butchery.
Speaker 2: He murdered somebody who went above and beyond, drove from
Florida to Michigan for Chrazt's sake, to, you know, comfort,
you visit you in prison, and this is the thank you,
invite you into your home in Florida, try and start
a life with you. You killed her. I'm like, well done.
I'm like I'm just yeah. And me personally, I could
see this kind of coming a mile away. I was like,
this isn't the end for him, you know, my gun
instinct told me. I was like, yeah, he's going to
continue in this vein. And Michelle knew that too. I mean,
she pleaded with people to listen to her and they didn't.
They're all like, he's going to do this again. He
is going to kill somebody. And they're like yeah, yeah, yeah,
And what did he do? Within you know, a year
and a half, he killed somebody.
Speaker 1: Initially, the state attorney chose not to pursue the death
penalty against Matthew. Case family wanted life in prison for
Matthew because they didn't want the drama and prolonged process
associated with the death penalty. But on August fourth, twenty
twenty two, Governor Ron DeSantis suspended the current state attorney
point at a new one. The following day, the previous
decision was reversed and a notice was filed to seek
the death penalty against him, citing the especially heinous nature
of the crime and his history of violent behavior. The
trial was a dark reminder of how the justice system
sometimes gets it wrong and leaves grieving families feeling even
more empty. Once again, Matthew Terry would claim self defense,
but this time there was no victim to speak for herself.
This would again fall on Michelle Rogers. In the aftermath
of k Baker's twenty twenty two murder in Lithia, Florida,
grief turned into outrage. Her family, still reeling from the loss,
faced an unimaginable task of having to explain to her
two young sons that their mother was gone forever. Case
friends and colleagues were shattered. The joy of the last
school day turned into disbelief as the news spread. How
could this have happened to someone so full of life,
someone so much to give? But this wasn't just a tragedy.
It was a failure. Matthew Terry had already shown the
world who he was, and we just ignored it and thought, man,
maybe he'll be better. In Michigan, he stabbed his ex
girlfriend Michelle Rogers in a drunken frenzy she had survived
by sheer will, and yet the justice system handed him
only three years because somehow we're trying to normalize this behavior,
maybe because it happens in certain communities that we want
to lift up or something. I don't know, But why
don't we just punish the things that are wrong and
let everything else sort itself out. Jesus fucking Christ, am
I the only sane person on earth? Anyway? Now Matthew
had taken Kay's life and once again pleaded not guilty,
Michelle and Detective Crumbach were about to relive their twenty
seventeen nightmare.
Speaker 2: He's never going to show one of your remorse, you know, now,
he may, well, why I take that back. You know,
during the course of the trial in Florida, he sniffled
and sobbed and you know, things like that. But once again,
you got to remember what an actor he is. And
I'm sure he actually during the course of the trial,
he made a comment that he wanted to testify, and
he made a comment to the later that you know,
he said, well, I wanted to testify, but my attorneys
told me I couldn't, and they made me a promise.
And this and that and the other thing, and you know, hey,
he's intelligent. You know, I think he was worried that
he was going to be found guilty of and charged
with a death penalty, and he was already trying to
set his appeals up.
Speaker 1: You're probably wondering how Matthew thought it was even remotely
possible to avoid a long prison sentence this time, or
at least how to avoid the death penalty. He was
someone everyone had already heard of about from the Michigan case,
including Michelle, who was a victim of his rage attack
and lived to tell about it. He and Daddy and
Daddy's expensive attorney already concocted a story. He got the
wrong guy, they said.
Speaker 2: Because he did not testify. Is one of his lawyers
gave this long drawn out discussion in regards to what
really happened, and basically it was, you know, the one
armed man theory. Somebody broke into the house and footsteps
were heard. People went outside, and it went to investigate,
and somebody had assaulted. Old matt showed up and he
was the hero of all these sort of things. And
I was just like, nobody bought it for a millisecond,
But they had to cook a story up and they did,
you know, and you know, unbelievable as it was, and
obviously no one believed it because in a case like this,
when a jury comes back in an hour and ten minutes,
you're guilty, Like yeah, they didn't believe that. They paid
close attention to the trial, and they paid very close
attention to the evidence, and they found him guilty.
Speaker 1: The penalty phase was different from most. While prosecutors usually
pursue the death penalty from the start, a twist in
the case changed the trajectory, a political twist because crime
and politics sir twined in case you haven't figured that out. Initially,
the state attorney's office had indicated they wouldn't seek the
death penalty. Cay's family supported this decision because they just
wanted relief. They didn't want to engage in the long
process of appeals. They knew where this was headed. But
when a new state attorney was appointed to the case,
he was determined to push for the ultimate punishment. As
the jury deliberated Terry's fate, the tension in the courtroom
was palpable. Would he receive the death penalty or would
he spend the rest of his life in prison. Ky
Baker's stepmother of thirty five years, asked Matthew some hard
questions in her victim impact statement during the penalty phase proceeding.
Speaker 4: What words did Kay say that night to justify you
killing her? How bad could those words be? Did she
say Dad was right? Michelle was right? Was that what
got her death sentence? It is very unsettling, as apparent,
to fear for your daughter because as a partner they've chosen.
I feared for Kay's life. Her dad feared for Kay's life,
and I don't understand why she did not.
Speaker 8: I hope you fear for your life.
Speaker 1: During the penalty phase, one last surprise guest showed up
to speak on behalf of k I have.
Speaker 11: That here this week and listened to everything that has happened,
everything that has been said. I have watched the giggles
and the last and the complete and disrespect for a
woman's life.
Speaker 8: That woman is not here today. She is passed away, and.
Speaker 11: I feel like it's a slack in the face, especially
when I heard that there were no priors when you
were given instruction that there were.
Speaker 8: I was not allowed to.
Speaker 11: Testify in any of this because I accepted misdemeanors rather
than pushing for a trial in felonies.
Speaker 1: Surprise, surprise, that was yet another girlfriend of Matthew Terry
who he assaulted back in two thousand.
Speaker 8: He broke into my house.
Speaker 11: I was assaulted my girlfriend, which was not any lesbian sense.
My friend that was a woman was also assaulted, and
he chased us around the house. When the police came,
he pretended to be the victim rather.
Speaker 8: Than the assailant.
Speaker 11: And a lot of the things I heard today regarding
case forgot today rather but this week we're very similar
to the things that I enjoyed, and so I did
not plan on saying anything today. I did not plan
on being a part of this at all, but I
feel that Kaye deserves that support.
Speaker 1: Kay's mother expressed a hope that Matthew Terry would experience
the same fear he inflicted on others. The judge ensured
he would have that chance.
Speaker 5: I listened to the testimony of Missus Rogers, both during
the Williams Rule hearing and during the trial that we've
been in here and additional testimony regarding the charges, the trial,
the sentence in Michigan. I don't know what happened in
Michigan as far as the trial and the sentence, But
based on what I heard, I believe that you should
have been in prison in Michigan and Miss Baker should
still be alive. This is Florida. You're going to prison
for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: That should be on a T shirt. The added testimony
of Matthew's girlfriend certainly helped informing the final sentence, but
in reality, Michelle Rodgers played a pivotal role in revealing
exactly who Matthew Terry was. She was determined that she
wouldn't let him escape a sentence he deserved.
Speaker 2: Michelle Rogers is probably one of the most outstanding, brave,
tough victims that I've ever had the privilege of working for.
And she saved her own life. She recognized what was
happening right in front of her. I don't think a
lot of people would have the fortitude and the strength
to recognize what was happening immediately and saved their own life.
And after the fact, she was extremely brave and went forth.
In the trial was an overwhelming sense of people against her.
Meeting matt Terry's family, Matt Terry's friends, they all kind
of like pointed the finger at her, like she was
the one who was at fault, that she was wrong,
that she somehow precipitated all these events against her, and
she certainly did not.
Speaker 1: Detective Crumbach also had a few choice things to say
about the Michigan jury and the justice system. He doesn't
mince words.
Speaker 2: This guy. That's what you call a wishy, washy, dishwash
dishrag type of a jury. You know, we'll find him
guilty of something, but not what he actually did. And
that's what happened. I don't have the names of all
those jurors, but I hope to God every single one
of them, every single one of them knows what he
did after the fact and what he did down in Florida.
And I hope it tortures their souls when they sleep
at night, because they did an injustice not only for Michelle,
but they did an injustice for that victim down in
Florida too. Ladies dead, two boys don't have a mother.
Mom and dad think of her every single day. Her
sisters think of her every single day. And it's all
because a couple of jurors up here in Michigan didn't
do their job in a case where there was overwhelming
evidence that was well prosecuted, and they found well, let's
go with the lesser charge. And I will tell you
in my career, I saw that happen many, many, many times.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 9: It makes me sad that, you know, I used to
say that I feel like when I went through my
stuff in twenty seventeen that I feel like he got
jypped on his sentencing because there wasn't a dead body.
Because I was somehow miraculously slaved and I survived, he
didn't get hit as hard as he should have, because
there's always that doubt, right if you're not there and
you're not one of the two people that goes through
it like, well maybe she is really not telling the
truth or stretching the truth or whatever, right, And so
because I wasn't dead, there was always that doubt, and
so he again I didn't feel like he got the
sentence that he necessarily deserved. But like with Kay, there
was a dead body, right, so finally there was something
that was actual evidence and actual proof that he did this. Unfortunately,
you know, somebody had to die, and that's just so unfortunate,
so unfortunate, and I feel like if someone just would
have listened to me like, because you don't know how
many people I tried to fight against his release and
against him and just it felt like nobody was doing
anything like nobody.
Speaker 1: Michelle Rogers survived because she saw Matthew Terry for who
he truly was. She didn't fall for the excuses or
the hollow apologies. When the red flag started piling up,
the controlling behavior, the bursts of rage, she tried to leave.
She recognized that staying meant putting herself and her son
in danger. That awareness, that fight to escape is what
ultimately saved her life, though not without leaving her with scars,
both visible and invisible, that she will live with forever.
On the other hand, k Baker's story is different. It's
not that she missed the red flags entirely, but her
memory of Matthew, the Matthew she once knew back in
high school, painted a picture of someone far removed from
the man who committed these acts of violence. She was
deceived by her own memory. Kay had such a good
heart that she wanted to see the best in people
even when it wasn't there. That kind of sentiment can
get he killed. She wasn't naive or blind, She was hopeful,
and that hope, paired with her loyalty to someone she
once trusted, made her believe in the possibility of change.
Not everybody can change, and not everybody can be saved.
It wasn't case fault. It was her kindness, her optimism,
her unwavering faith in people that to find who she was.
I mean, all those things are good things. We want
to encourage that in people, right. We want a society
where everyone is kind, is optimistic, and has faith in humanity.
But people like Matthew Terry ruin it because they exist.
Matthew wasn't the person she thought she knew, and he
exploited that, as monsters often do.
Speaker 2: You ultimately somebody that he can no longer control convince
or I think that she no longer believed in him.
When he lost that control, he murdered. That goes to
tell you what a just a useless human being that
he is.
Speaker 1: We all want to believe in people. We all want
to trust the version of someone we hold in our minds,
the good one. We all want to think positively. But
let's not forget that we live in reality, not a
Disney contrived fiction. It comes down to the fundamental base
code of what makes us who we are, and it's
a tough bounce to get right. Optimism versus pessimism, seeing
the good in people versus fearing the worst. I'll tell
you it's very hard to get right. It's something I
still struggle with every day. I tend to be more pessimistic,
but I can see the value in being optimistic despite
the danger. We all want to keep a version of
the people around us that's shaped by our memories, added
with our own good character, and make that the real
version of the person that is in front of us.
But people like Matthew Terry turn that trust into a weapon,
and they do it seamlessly. It's just about seeing the
red flags. It's about being able to be aware enough
to distance yourself when you spot them. Maybe start protecting
yourself because you're the only one in charge of that.
I guess the why est lesson that can be derived
from something like this is that it's important to listen.
It's important to open up our minds to what could
be other than what we think is. Michelle tried to
warn us, She tried to warn us all, and we
all just ignored her. We're all so locked into our
own belief systems and resistant to change. We just can't
see different points of view sometimes until the worst has happened,
And then we look back and we see the bodies
behind us and wonder if it's maybe time to start
listening to those who keep warning us. Yeah, Cheryl keeps
wanting about the patriarchy. Oh hi, we've reached the end
of the show. So this is where I tell you
to help independent creators like us by heading over to
swordanscail dot com and signing up for plus or don't,
I don't care, I don't know does reverse psychology even work?
Don't get Sordenskaille plus. I forbid you to get Swordan's
Kale plus at swordscale dot com.