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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advice.

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Speaker 3: Welcome out this store. You're struggling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you believe Margaret called me a Nazi again?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 5: Hi?

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Speaker 1: This is Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that

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the worst monsters are real. This is episode three oh

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three of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that

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the worst monsters are real. In case you haven't heard,

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which would be really weird because we repeated every single episode.

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There's a thing called Sword and Scale Television. At swordscale

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dot com, we have about sixteen episodes now of the show,

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true crime hour long each some of the best true

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crime you'll find. Go check it out and support independent creators. Hey,

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how about them terrorists. We're not here to talk about

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terrorism or politics or any of that, but there is

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a common thread, betwe between all of those things and

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what we talk about here, and that's that humanity is

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at the center of it all across the country. Over

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the last I don't know a couple of years. Ever

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since BLM, we've seen ramping up an escalation, if you will,

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of dissent across college campuses all over the country, and

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it hasn't just been isolated to called campuses. It's an infection,

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a virus, if you will, spreading across the young people

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of today, a need to stand up for those who

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have been wrongfully oppressed. When you have no understanding of

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history and you operate strictly on emotion, sometimes you stand

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up for the wrong person, like oh, I don't know

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a terrorist. Sometimes you just start spewing terrorist propaganda literally

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and prevent other students from getting to their class, other

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people from getting to work, and contributing to society, the

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society we're all supposedly trying to build here. Standing up

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for the wrong person, no matter how good your intentions are,

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can have disastrous consequences. Gays for Gaza would be a

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fantastic example of that if you played it out to

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its inevitable conclusion. But again, we're not here to talk

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about politics, just pointing out these similarities between the story

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we're about to tell you in society at large, because

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that's what we do here. We tell you stories of

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real people that have really happened in a way where

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we try to make it apply to your everyday life,

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or in scale, isn't really a true crime podcast. It's

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a human nature podcast. It's a podcast about right and

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wrong and how we figure out what's what, how we

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incentivize the good, and how we the bat It's about

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making sense of it all in a time when making

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sense of things has become a bit of a challenge.

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I'm sure thirty five year old Michelle Rogers, who lived

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in Lancing, Michigan, in twenty fifteen, understood that challenge. She

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was trying to stand up for the wrong person. Lancing

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is a pretty typical Midwest city. It's a state capital,

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so you've got the big government buildings downtown, but most

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of the city seems a lot more low key. The

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neighborhoods are quiet and lined with trees. Most of the

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houses are modest, nothing too flashy, but comfortable. It's the

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kind of place where people say hi when they pass

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each other on the street, but everyone, you know, mostly

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keeps to themselves, like we do in every major city

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in America. A lot of scary people out there, as

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we all know. Anyway, Lancing used to thrive because of

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the auto industry. A lot of places in Michigan were

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decimate made it after the auto industry kind of went

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overseas you could still see parts of that history, and

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it is really quite interesting and beautiful. Some of those

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old buildings are incredible, a symbol of bustling capitalism and

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growth at its peak. But we're living in a different

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time and a lot of those factories have closed down.

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Now it's more about schools, government jobs, and local businesses.

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The few that are left. People tend to stick to

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their routines work, family, maybe catching a ball game or

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heading to a park on the weekends. Even though the

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crime rate is a bit higher, so is the community

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and level of neighborhood vigilance. Michelle was an independent and

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self sufficient woman with a great career and almost everything

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she wanted in life. She had everything except for one thing,

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someone to go out to dinner or dancing with. One day,

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feeling the need for adult company, she signed up to

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a dating site. She wasn't looking for anything serious, especially

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with a young son to care for, just somebody to

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hang out with, have a couple of dates, have a

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little fun, no harm, no foul. She swiped left and

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right through dozens of pictures and profiles, seeing if anyone

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matched her energy, and then after a couple swipes, she

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found Matthew Terry's picture. It popped up on her screen

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and she was hmm interested. At the same time, Matthew

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was checking out Michelle's profile. He liked her vibe and

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the fact that they had common interests. They probably just

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thought she was hot, because that's how guys think. But

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whatever the reason, they hooked up they started dating. Michelle

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kept her guard and didn't want to get too serious,

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but Matthew was so easy going and they had such

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a great time together. It just kind of flirt. He

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was attentive, not just to her but to her son.

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He took him fishing and sled riding, and even her

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son liked Matthew. The fact that they were so compatible

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came as a surprise to Michelle, and she was starting

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to believe Matthew when he said he thought they were soulmates.

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It's easy to get caught up in that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. What's the location of your emergency. It's

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across the street from.

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Speaker 6: Six twenty five Worthington Drive.

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Speaker 3: Ok, what's going on here?

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Speaker 6: There's a man who had a woman shamed on the

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ground in their driveway there fighting.

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Speaker 3: She's screaming, why are you doing this to me?

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Speaker 6: Literally rolling in the driveway right now. Perfect, she screams

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the help right now.

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Speaker 3: She's see a new weapon. I don't want that other

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white black ash just fanner white, okay, wearing.

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Speaker 6: She's got a green T shirt and jean. She's stream

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called an ambulance.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Is she saying what she needs an ambulance for?

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Speaker 1: That would be a no. She did not say what

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she needed an ambulance for. You could tell because she's

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screaming for her fucking life.

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Speaker 6: She's screaming, somebody please help me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, hang on, just taking a lot to stress with

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ambulance go ahead page for an unknown medical at six

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twenty five war things and it's going to be some fortifier.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell this operator just doesn't like her job.

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I don't think she'd like any job, to be honest

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with you, But I digress. It was definitely a fight

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and Michelle was determined to survive. It started in the house,

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but now Matthew was assaulting Michelle in the driveway and

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neighbors could see it all going down. It was horrifying.

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Speaker 7: I do.

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Speaker 6: It's directly across the street from me, a canhouse with

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a red door, black for a CUD in the drive way.

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She has her pinned right to the ground, and she's streaming,

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bloody letter.

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Speaker 3: What if he's saying, he's not saying a word, and

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she's just she keeps streaming help me, help me, help me,

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and he's not saying a single word. Are you looking

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at her?

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Speaker 6: I mean he's literally on top of her, like just

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like yet right now, and he has her in like

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a chofold with her legs over her head, her.

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Speaker 3: Legs over her head.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, she's just beating her head on the ground. He

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has her hair. Now, who's running?

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Speaker 3: And said.

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Speaker 4: Again?

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Speaker 6: He went inside and she's up. She's all bloody, ma'am.

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Speaker 3: They're right there, haven't. I mean, Jones is coming. They don't.

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They're right there. Ry Andrews is coming. Shit, just sit

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right there, just set.

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Speaker 6: She covered in blood.

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Speaker 3: Okay, what is she saying? A baby in the house.

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It's okay. And ambulance is on the way. It's okay.

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Speaker 1: Even though Matthew was completely wasted, he used his knowledge

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as a wrestling coach to subdue her. Combined with his

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rage and adrenaline, it was a deadly combination. But finally

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Michelle dragged herself across the street to her neighbor's house

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for safety.

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Speaker 3: Yes, their day. What's her name?

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Speaker 6: You're Michelle Rodgers in the name of Matt Terry.

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Speaker 3: Did you have a weapon?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 3: His name is Matt Terry. Matt Terry. He had a

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knife with him. I'm sorry he had it on him. Okay,

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hang on second, yep, I can hear the Sireen's okay

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and everything six twenty five Worthington. The mail had a knife.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 3: We have an angela coming in.

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 3: Okay. Did he thrown her with a knife?

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Speaker 6: She covered in blood?

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Speaker 3: And did she looked at are you cut?

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Speaker 7: Michelle?

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Speaker 3: Are you cut? Somewhere? She stabbed you? She's been stabbed?

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Speaker 6: She said, where have you been?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I seen the them, honey, Where were you stabbed?

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Speaker 6: Where?

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Speaker 3: Where were you scammed?

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Speaker 4: That?

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Speaker 6: And the shoulder?

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Speaker 3: Your stands the neck and the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Michelle was in bad shape, but she was less worried

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about herself than she was about her nine month old son,

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who was still in the house with his drunk and

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violent dad.

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Speaker 3: You can't even go down their way if they're coming.

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Speaker 7: Three jobs.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she's for sure is successfully covered.

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Speaker 6: And like, Michelle, where do you Okay?

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Speaker 3: Now they know that your son's and now, okay, you

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still have a knife as far as I go. Nice, Okay,

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I need her to set it down somewhere. It's sitting.

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Speaker 6: It's hurt.

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Speaker 7: The knife that she has on the ground next to her,

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it's the nice she took from him.

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Speaker 6: That they were multiple knives.

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Speaker 3: In the house.

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Speaker 1: Another neighbor also phoned nine one one and wanted to help,

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but was too afraid to ask Michelle in because she

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was elderly and lived alone. She could easily become a

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second victim. So she did the next best thing. She

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took out a blanket and covered Michelle with it. The

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sirens were getting closer. Michelle was running out of time.

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But here she is to tell you exactly what happened

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to her that night. Let me just set some things

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up first. She was actually coming home from being out

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with Matthew that night, but she was forced to leave

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Matthew behind at the bar because he was in no

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shape to drive.

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Speaker 9: Even months prior to this, I was I met with

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an attorney to see how I could get out of

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the relationship, and it just seemed like, you know, there

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was no good way, But so I went to his

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parents' house and I picked up our son, and as

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I was grabbing him, they're like, well, you know, where's Matt.

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And at that time, I said, well, I don't know.

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He's still down there drinking. I don't know, don't care whatever,

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grabbed the baby and I laughed, and I went home

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and I fed the baby and put him to bed upstairs,

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and I was just sitting there watching TV. And like,

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the whole house had an open layout, so the living room,

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in the kitchen, you know, you could see through there.

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There was like a little bar area. And on the

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backslider door, I hear a knock. I'm like, okay, what

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the hell? And so I look up and it's Matt

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knocking on the back door.

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Speaker 1: Michelle says that besides being drunk off his face, he

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seemed angry. Alcohol sometimes does that to you, pulls out

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all the angry demons inside and they start lashing out.

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But she sat on the couch, ignoring him. Well, he

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tried to make a sandwich keyword try. Then all of

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a sudden, she has no idea what it is, she said,

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but she must have said something because he came at

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her running angry and ready for a fight.

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Speaker 9: The only way I can describe it is like kind

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of like a football player, right, like they're running at you,

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like they're going to tackle you. And I remember like

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him coming at me, and I braced myself with my

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arms in front of my chest and I'm like, you know,

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what are you doing? And then that's when he made

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contact with me and pushed me into the front door,

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which was directly behind me at the time, and we

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both fell to the floor. Then you know, we're going

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around on the floor and he is essentially treating me

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like he's wrestling with me. Like I could recognize wrestling moves, like,

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you know, because he's a wrestling cot and so I

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recognized some of these things he was trying to like

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pin me down in and there were some that were

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really scary, like he was putting me in chokeholds to

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the point where I was starting to black out and

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feel dizzy, and somehow, you know, don't ask me how

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I would manage to break free from these things or

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like rig a lot of them, and then he would

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just keep you know, putting me in more on the floor.

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So we're on the floor, he starts punching me in

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the face. He's punching me in the chest.

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Speaker 1: Michelle was face down now trying to scoot her way

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back to the carpeted area of the living room so

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she could get a grip and push herself up. The

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tile in the kitchen was covered in blood. Now that

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he'd broken her nose and knocked her teeth out, he

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was relentless, and he dragged her back into the kitchen

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each time. Then he started banging her head repeatedly on

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the floor.

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Speaker 9: I will never forget the black trash can that I

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was staring at that whole time. Like I'm laying there

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staring at this trash can, just watching it like fade

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in and fade out. Is my head's getting pummeled on

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the floor, and the only thing I can think is,

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holy shit, don't don't pass out, Like, don't pass out.

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And for some reason, the thought popped in my head,

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you know, I had learned it somewhere apparently in my life,

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was that, you know, don't tense up your muscles, because

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if you tense up your muscles, like you're going to

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have more damage. And so I tried to relax as

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much as I could while he's doing this, And I

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don't know if that helped or not. But that was

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one of the thoughts that kind of you know, passed

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through my mind.

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Speaker 1: At last, it seemed like Matthew had stopped. Michelle sat up,

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trying to steady herself, but her back was to him.

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Suddenly he came at her again, this time with a

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kitchen knife, stabbing her in the front of the neck.

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Panicked and bleeding, she ran towards the garage. She hit

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the button to open the door, gasping for air as

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he stayed close behind. As the door started to rise,

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Matthew forced it back down, slamming on the button. With

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only a small gap left, Michelle rolled under it, desperate

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to get out, but Matthew was right behind her, able

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to roll under the door as well. Michelle's relationship with

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Matthew started out very differently a while back. There were signs,

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but she could have never known that one day she'd

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be in fear for her life.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, matt and I had, you know, we had a

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lot of fun adventures together. He had quite a broad

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group of friends, and so there seemed like there was

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always something going on. Somebody was having a party or organizing,

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you know, a shortification over the weekend, or just something.

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And so we were always really busy. But there did

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come a time, you know, within a few months after

300
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,880
doing all these really fun things that one hundred percent

301
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,319
of the time involved drinking, that I realized he had

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a problem.

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Speaker 1: Matthew took the good times too far. When they were

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out with friends. She sometimes had to remind him to

305
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,880
drink less. He just wasn't the same person when he'd

306
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had one too many, and she wanted to get him

307
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home safe.

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Speaker 9: I noticed the drinking pretty quick quickly. There were a

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few instances where he, you know, would drink so much

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that he would just pass out. Specifically, I remember going

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00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,359
down like a lazy river trip, so we were all

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00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,680
on tubes on this river, just floating down, and he

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was passed out on his tube and just sleeping the

314
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whole way because he had drank so much in the beginning,

315
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he didn't wake up at all. And I kept thinking,

316
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,680
you know what happens if he just falls over in

317
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the water and you can't touch the bottom right like,

318
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I can't lift him out, so someone would have to

319
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,799
save him because he was just he wouldn't wake up.

320
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So things like that that would happen throughout these activities

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where he would just be obliterated all the time.

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Speaker 1: It was a few months into the relationship and Michelle

323
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,920
was a runner preparing for a big race. She thought

324
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,079
it through and was going to break things off as

325
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soon as the race was over. She just didn't want

326
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to take on someone who had a potential drinking problem.

327
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But as the race came closer, she started to feel ill.

328
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She took a test and realized that, oh shit, I'm pregnant.

329
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Things continued normally for the next year and a half.

330
00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:13,240
Matthew was a good dad and for the most part,

331
00:19:13,319 --> 00:19:18,039
a loving partner. There were just times when he took

332
00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:21,200
his partying a little too far, and it concerned Michelle

333
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,759
even more now that she had a child with him.

334
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,240
On Saint Patrick's Day of twenty seventeen, the couple went

335
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,680
out with friends for the day. They stopped for lunch

336
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,480
at an Irish pub and had a couple of beers.

337
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Then they moved on to another Irish bar, where Michelle

338
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,079
slowed down but Matthew did not. By six pm, Michelle

339
00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:43,960
was ready to go out, but found Matthew in another

340
00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:48,440
bar next door. He was the only one in the place,

341
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and he was so plastered he couldn't even talk That's

342
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,039
when she decided to just go home alone. I don't blamer,

343
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nobody wants to put up with a drunk Michelle walked

344
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,960
a mile and a half through the snowy cold weather

345
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,759
just to get away from her significant other, just to

346
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get home. Exhausted, she then drove to the home of

347
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,519
Matt's parents and picked up the kids, and when she

348
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:19,920
got back home, she sank into the couch. Just a

349
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,799
couple of hours later, a very different version of Matthew

350
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,920
than the man she loved showed up at the screen door,

351
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,640
knocking to get in. This seemingly ai representation of the

352
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,000
man she loved proceeded to stumble through the kitchen and

353
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started to make himself a sandwich. Michelle sat in the

354
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open concept living room where she could watch TV but

355
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,319
still keep an eye on him. He was drunk, but

356
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:51,200
things were peaceful, that is until they weren't. Michelle was

357
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,480
in the hospital fighting for her life now, and Matthew

358
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:59,039
was arraigned in the morning after the attack. The lead detective,

359
00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:03,160
who coincidentally shares the same first name, remembers what Matthew

360
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,079
said from jail.

361
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,799
Speaker 2: Hello, my name's Matthew Crumback. I'm a retired detective with

362
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,240
a City of Llansing police department here in Michigan. They

363
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,160
didn't really discuss too much about what Matt had done.

364
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He was very vague about what he had done, kind

365
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,960
of claimed that he didn't quite remember well what had happened,

366
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because I don't think that he wanted to tell his

367
00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:32,400
father what he had done. He made a comment to

368
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his dad that she was in the hospital and wife

369
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was she in the hospital, And he was rather vague

370
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:42,880
and trying his explanation, was trying to get his dad

371
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to say, Hey, could you come down here and bail

372
00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:47,319
me out? Could you put some money together? Could you

373
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,119
get me out of this situation. I don't want to

374
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lose my job. It was more concerned obviously about himself

375
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,559
than he was Michelle. He did not plead guilty. He

376
00:21:58,839 --> 00:22:02,880
was transferred out to the Ingham County jail. Ultimately, his

377
00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,200
family did bail him out on bail, a substantial bail.

378
00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:10,480
I believe it was around a quarter million dollars. His

379
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:13,680
family had the ability to bail him out prior to

380
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,400
the trial. It was assigned to court date and then

381
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we went to court and he pleaded not guilty.

382
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: When it was all said and done. Michelle survived, but

383
00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:27,799
had the assault continued even for just another second, the

384
00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:30,440
outcome could have been very different.

385
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Speaker 9: And I just remember, and this might sound a little crazy, right,

386
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,599
but you know how you have like your voice in

387
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,599
your head. It was like this other voice that was

388
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,960
guiding me to do certain things right, and this other

389
00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:42,960
voice like yelled at me, and it's like, grab the

390
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,720
fucking knife, like he's going to kill you, and so like,

391
00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:48,279
as he came down for the fourth, the fourth stab,

392
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,279
I like grabbed the knife and I remember I had

393
00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:52,599
the blade end of it, and I'm laying on my

394
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,359
back and I'm grabbing this knife and I'm literally pulling

395
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,359
it across my face from right side to the left

396
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,200
as he's trying to push it in, you know, push

397
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,799
it forward into my face. And all I could think

398
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,279
was like, oh my god, he's going to poke my

399
00:23:05,319 --> 00:23:07,400
eye out. He's gonna like I don't know what's going

400
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,920
to happen. Somehow I managed to get this thing pulled

401
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,960
across my face. And as I did, and I pulled

402
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,480
it to the other side of my body, the knife

403
00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:17,559
fell kind of like to my left side and I

404
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,079
was able to sort of talk it underneath me enough

405
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,079
and sort of roll to my left a little bit

406
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,960
where he wasn't able to find it.

407
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:30,039
Speaker 1: Michelle had seven stab wounds, a broken nose, loss of teeth,

408
00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,920
and head injuries. He even bit her face several times

409
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,839
in an attempt to wrestle the knife away. Matthew, on

410
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,200
the other hand, barely had a scratch on himself. Clearly

411
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,519
Michelle had met a monster, but no one else in

412
00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:50,480
Matthew's life seemed to view him that way. I guess

413
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,440
he was really good at hiding his illness. A lot

414
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,400
of people are. He was quite a popular guy, in fact,

415
00:23:58,079 --> 00:24:01,720
so he was probably pretty good at it. At trial,

416
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,720
his family brought a numerous character witnesses, and matt himself testified,

417
00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:09,319
trying to claim that all of Michelle's injuries were the

418
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,960
result of her attack on him, and that he was

419
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,319
merely defending himself. Don't you hate it when the aggressor

420
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,920
plays victim. Seems to happen a lot these days.

421
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:24,519
Speaker 2: He was charged with attempted murder. His family was able

422
00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:28,680
to secure him a private attorney that was reputable in

423
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,359
the city of Lancing, and that he requested that there

424
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,880
would be a lesser charge included under attempted murder, which

425
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,599
would be great bodily harm less than murder. The jury

426
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:43,759
did find him guilty of the lesser charge of great

427
00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:47,240
bodily harm less than murder, and he was sentenced to

428
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,279
three years in prison in the Michigan Department of Corrections,

429
00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:54,279
which he did serve three years. I believe that Matt Terry,

430
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,640
now that I'm retired, can say this, should have definitely

431
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:00,759
been found guilty of attempted murder, and you should still

432
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:04,519
be in custody. In the state of Michigan. Juries are

433
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:09,319
wishy Washington, and I hope every person that said on

434
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,200
that jury is well aware of what Matt Terry did

435
00:25:13,319 --> 00:25:16,599
in the aftermath of being released from the Michigan Department

436
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,319
of Corrections, and I hope they live with that every

437
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,599
single day of their life.

438
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: Matthew was out in just three years, and Michelle was petrified.

439
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 9: As soon as I found out he was getting paroled,

440
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,160
I had started looking for jobs out of state. I

441
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,240
knew that if he was going to stay anywhere, he

442
00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:35,799
would stay with his parents, and his parents were literally

443
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,400
twenty minutes from where I lived, and there was there

444
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,839
was no way I was going to stay, And so

445
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,200
I was terrified. I just knew I had to get

446
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,200
myself and my kids somewhere safe. So I started looking

447
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,519
for jobs out of state. I accepted a job offer,

448
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,799
you know, and then I had to file with the

449
00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,519
courts to both try and or try and move both

450
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:58,880
of my children, so one for my oldest son, one

451
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,960
for my youngest son, to try and relocate them, which

452
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,400
isn't an easy thing to do, if you know anything

453
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:06,000
about that.

454
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: Michelle felt completely isolated. It seemed like everybody around her

455
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,559
had been taken in by Matthew's facade. Even somebody she

456
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,880
wants trusted deeply turned against her, siding with the man

457
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,359
who nearly ended her life. Nobody talks about how lonely

458
00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:27,119
it can be to confront your attacker, but holy shit,

459
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,119
can you imagine losing your friends because someone else was

460
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,039
violent towards you.

461
00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 9: So I was traveling back and forth, you know, between

462
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,119
states for a year, trying to get approval to move

463
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,920
my kids with me, and then kind of behind the scenes.

464
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,119
This is something I don't think anybody knows because I've

465
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,759
never talked about it in a podcast, But like my somehow,

466
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,160
because my ex husband didn't believe me. He said that

467
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720
matt was too nice to be an abuser, and then

468
00:26:55,759 --> 00:26:57,720
I was a liar. And so somehow he and matt

469
00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:00,839
had connected behind the scenes, and they were working with

470
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,839
the same attorneys, trying to kind of tag team to

471
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,039
keep so one of them could win, so that I'd

472
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:08,400
have to stay in the state and I wouldn't be

473
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,680
able to move with my children.

474
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: She didn't know if she'd ever be free of Matthew Terry,

475
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,680
but she knew one thing for sure. He wasn't done

476
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:21,640
hurting people. Living in fear that he might return consumed her,

477
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,599
and she knew in her heart that it certainly wasn't over.

478
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,559
Michelle Rogers of Lansing, Michigan, only wanted someone to share

479
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,079
parts of her life with. As a mechanical engineer, she

480
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,559
had a career, a young son, and a pretty great life.

481
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,359
That is until she met forty two year old Matthew Terry.

482
00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:14,319
At first, the relationship was full of social gatherings and

483
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,000
fun dates, but just when she started seeing red flags

484
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:21,799
and planned to break up, she got pregnant. When her

485
00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:24,880
son was nine months old. Matthew violently attacked her on

486
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,119
Saint Patrick's Day after drinking himself into a stupor. She survived,

487
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,000
but her life would never be the same. She carried

488
00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:38,000
the physical and emotional scars of Matthew Terry's violent outburst.

489
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:42,119
The justice system failed her, with Matthew only getting a

490
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,240
slap on the wrist. Three years and he was out

491
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,000
after stabbing and beating her, leaving her just seconds from death.

492
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:55,240
How would you feel? That thought of him walking free

493
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:58,119
again filled her with dread. She knew what he was

494
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,200
capable of, and the idea that he was just out there, somewhere,

495
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:05,359
free walking around was a wait that she couldn't escape.

496
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,000
Three years just wasn't enough. Nobody learns anything in three years.

497
00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:12,559
It takes a little longer than that, at least for

498
00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:17,960
what he did. And then one night, suddenly who could

499
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,680
have predicted it? There's another call for help. In the

500
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,519
early hours of the morning, Hillsborough County Deputies responded to

501
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:29,599
a distress call from sixty two to eleven kidderage Drive

502
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:35,319
and Lithia, Florida, Lithia, Florida, Where the hell is Lithia, Florida?

503
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 5: Saturday, May twenty eight, two Thousy twenty two nine.

504
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:48,079
Speaker 6: On one police BI medical I need emergency police work,

505
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,839
A ambulance y on the line. Yes, there's someone.

506
00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: Who found the line them writing her in my house.

507
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 7: My husband just went out there or next door.

508
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get out with my door, but my

509
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,000
dog is my dog is trying to stop me. Someone

510
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,400
someone has hurt. Uh, someone has hurt outside my houd

511
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,200
maam I need you to read the ass to a verification.

512
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:20,039
Don't have what happened?

513
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,839
Speaker 7: Laterated lashery cut, Okay, let's cut.

514
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,359
Speaker 3: Uh someone next door was this?

515
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,559
Speaker 7: She's she's that they have a major cut to their necks.

516
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: You know what happened? I don't know.

517
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,279
Speaker 6: My husband heard someone screaming, and then we came outside.

518
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 3: There's there's struggle in the house. Coming out of the door.

519
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,160
They're struggling. I'm sorry, don't even get out of the house.

520
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:50,279
Speaker 1: God, can you hear the panic in her voice. It's

521
00:30:50,319 --> 00:30:54,480
giving me extreme anxiety right now. And the operator just

522
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:58,759
couldn't give a flying fanny way. The neighbors had no

523
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,119
idea what was going on, only that a young woman

524
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,480
lay bleeding from the neck near her home. The confusion

525
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,440
was palpable. A quiet neighborhood suddenly turned into a scene

526
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:15,359
from a nightmare, with no clear answers. For anyone. Anxiety

527
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,720
ridden neighbors looked out their windows as the red and

528
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,079
blue lights flashed from the police cars and ambulance. Horrified,

529
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,480
phones still in hand, they wondered what just happened? Two

530
00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:33,079
people wrestling outside, screams cries for help? Who was this woman?

531
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,279
What happened to her? As paramedics rushed to the scene,

532
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:41,079
the police began piecing together the story, a nightmare story

533
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:43,559
that was all too similar to what happened in Michigan.

534
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,799
But this crime happened in Florida, and Matthew Terry lived

535
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:53,200
in Michigan, Or did he? The young woman was Kay Baker,

536
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:57,119
a math teacher and mother of two. She was barely

537
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,440
holding on as first responders worked to stabilize her. Blood

538
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,759
gushed from her neck wound and turned the green grass

539
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,039
to red where she'd collapsed in the yard between her

540
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:12,160
home and a neighbor's gasping for air turned to a

541
00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:16,480
deadly gurgling through the deep slash in her neck that

542
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:21,240
almost decapitated her. They watched in horror as paramedics loaded

543
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,640
her onto a gurney and placed a sheet on her

544
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:30,440
body and over her face. She didn't make it. They

545
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,079
couldn't have known the full truth yet, that this wasn't

546
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,000
a random attack. The man responsible was not a stranger.

547
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:43,640
It was someone Kay had welcomed into her life. So

548
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,240
when she believed she could trust, police were already searching

549
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:54,279
for him and his name was Matthew Terry.

550
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: Over a powny fire, he recorded, fine.

551
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,519
Speaker 10: How may I help you?

552
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 11: Hey?

553
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: We need jaw and what's going on over there? They

554
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,119
need your emergency?

555
00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 7: I think the dog bit him, but he was also

556
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,240
bleeding already. It has to do with why y'all are

557
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,279
out there earlier with the female that was bleeding. It's

558
00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:20,119
related to that the stabbing. Yeah, man, was it a

559
00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:22,880
cane but well that's something I don't know. I believe

560
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,039
the canine bit him, but he was already bleeding when

561
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,839
they found him in the woods. So is the emergency

562
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,559
or they said emergency And I can't talk to them

563
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:31,839
because they said to hold the station.

564
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: So that's all I have for you. Okay, is the

565
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:36,559
scene secure? Yeah?

566
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,759
Speaker 7: They need to like now, okay, all right, We're gonna

567
00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:41,880
go and thinking dear night.

568
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: When deputies entered the home she shared with her boyfriend,

569
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,359
Matthew Terry, they found signs of a violent struggle. A

570
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:54,319
bathroom door was damaged consistent with being kicked in, and

571
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,519
the bedroom was locked. When they kicked it open, they

572
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:02,240
found an open window with its screen pushed outward and

573
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,839
lying in the yard, hinting that someone had escaped through it.

574
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,840
Blood traces led from inside the house through the backyard

575
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,480
toward a wooded area bordering Lithia Pinecrest Road. The area

576
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,079
was cordoned off with a yellow tape as investigators and

577
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:25,039
crime scene units meticulously examined the surroundings. Bloodhounds or let

578
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,119
loose to trackt Matthew's movements. Following a trail of blood

579
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,480
through the thick bushes near the property, they discovered more

580
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,360
bloodstains and a trampled area of leaves. A deputy and

581
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,159
his canine partner, Champ, traced the suspects approximately one hundred

582
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,039
yards east of the scene. Matthew was lying in dense

583
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:52,840
grass wearing only a blood soaked T shirt and underwear. Howpathetic.

584
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,760
He also had cuts on his neck, but later it

585
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,800
would be determined that he'd cut himself on purpose. And

586
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,800
the clip you just heard about the dog bite, Yeah

587
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,360
that's Champ, the canine. He took a nice chomp out

588
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,079
of Matthew Terry and good on him. That's a good boy, Champ,

589
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,760
good boy. Indeed, here is Detective Crumbback.

590
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: I saw parallels in the case from Michigan to Florida,

591
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:28,400
and it's eerie on how similar these cases were. I

592
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,760
mean eerie on how close they were. I mean from

593
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,719
the point of he took a knife from a butcher

594
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,480
block in Michigan and assaulted Michelle. He took a knife

595
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,280
from a butcher block in Florida and assaulted dead victim,

596
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,039
and it seems like he had been consuming alcohol. There

597
00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:51,280
was an argument, you know, the fact that he was

598
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,719
found in both cases in his underwear and T shirts

599
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,719
soaked in blood in Michigan. In Florida, they found him,

600
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,320
you know, one hundred yards away from the house, lying

601
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,639
in the woods with his underwear and a T shirt

602
00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:08,480
soaked in blood. I'm like, wow, this looks very familiar

603
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,440
to me. And you know, I think that there appears

604
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,079
to me. I wasn't an investigator down in Florida, but

605
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:18,679
I noticed that inflicted a couple of wounds on himself

606
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,280
in the Florida case, and I'm thinking, well, you know,

607
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,840
he's probably thinking I better cook something up. You know

608
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,480
that self defense claim works kind of good in Michigan.

609
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:28,559
I went from fifteen to three years. Maybe I can

610
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:31,400
do the same thing here down in Florida. But it

611
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,920
didn't work out for him so much.

612
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: Really, the only difference between the twenty seventeen assault against

613
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,599
Michelle and the twenty twenty two assault against kay Baker

614
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:43,719
is that Michelle was much luckier.

615
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:45,039
Speaker 2: That's it.

616
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,199
Speaker 1: She survived while k Baker bled out and died before

617
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:53,960
paramedics could reach her. That's the only difference. When Matthew

618
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,719
walked free in twenty twenty, another woman was already waiting

619
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,000
for him. This time, he didn't need to charm his

620
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,599
way into her life. Kay Baker, a former high school friend,

621
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:09,920
had willingly opened that door. In fact, she even testified

622
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,960
on his behalf at the trial in Michigan, making this

623
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,159
whole story even sadder.

624
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 9: So I wasn't a part of like I couldn't be

625
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,239
in the courtroom because I had to testify when she

626
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,119
came for the twenty seventeen trial. But she did testify

627
00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:25,920
to his character then. But that wasn't the only time.

628
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:29,079
She also had come into some of her child custody

629
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,079
and parenting. Like the court hearings to testify on his

630
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:36,920
behalf as well. You know, I don't want to say naive,

631
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,280
but she just she thought he was different than what

632
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,960
he portrayed, just like I did. And it wasn't anything

633
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,239
that was her fault. He had just told her a

634
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,000
story that she believed, and she really loved him and

635
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:49,000
cared for him, and she wanted to believe that he

636
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:50,920
was the person that he portrayed to her. And so

637
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,400
I don't fault her at all for being there to

638
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,239
speak to this, because all he ever showed her was

639
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,159
the good side, right, And maybe I guess I don't

640
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:03,719
know what else he showed her, but I'm assuming that,

641
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,800
you know, she saw the good stuff, and she believed

642
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,599
that he was really a good person. She'd known him

643
00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:11,199
for a long time and so she truly believed that

644
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,320
he was that person that she was saying he was.

645
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: Kay Baker was, by all accounts, the kind of person

646
00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:21,360
everyone wanted in their corner. She was bubbly, compassionate, and

647
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,880
fiercely loyal to her family, friends, and students that she

648
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,239
taught As a middle school math teacher. She didn't just teach,

649
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,280
she mentored, encouraged, and inspired her two boys were her

650
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,199
entire world, and she juggled her career and motherhood with

651
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:44,719
a smile. Admirable, but like anyone else, we get lonely.

652
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,440
We reach out into the ether looking for companionship, and

653
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,760
sometimes the ether has a sense of humor, a dark

654
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,559
sense of humor. When Kay reconnected with Matthew Terry through

655
00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:01,960
social media during his try well, she didn't see a monster,

656
00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:05,400
but a man she thought she knew, the boy she

657
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,199
remembered from high school, the boy she was convinced had

658
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,480
been misunderstood. I think it's a good time in the

659
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:17,480
story to reiterate that standing for the wrong person can

660
00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:22,639
be deadly. Kay became one of Matthew's staunchest defenders, even

661
00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:26,320
testifying at his trial in her words, he wasn't a

662
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,960
dangerous man, but someone who made a terrible mistake. I've

663
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,679
heard that before, that whole Oh he's not bad, he's just,

664
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,159
you know, not as privileged or something. It's a great

665
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,199
excuse for doing awful things and then getting away with it.

666
00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:47,119
But Kay truly believed that matt deserved another chance, and

667
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,960
of course so did he. Detective Crumbach and Michelle got

668
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,199
to know each other very well from the twenty seventeen trial,

669
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,800
and he remembered all of Michelle's efforts to prevent Matthew

670
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,760
from striking again. Instead of being resentful that Kay was

671
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,719
siding with her assailant. She tried to warn Kay, but

672
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:14,360
as it often does, this message fell on deaf ears.

673
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: She sent her pictures. She's like, don't let this happen

674
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,960
to you, and she just kind of blew her off.

675
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:28,599
And Kay's friends down in Florida they believed Matt Terry.

676
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,599
They believed, you know, his explanation for why he was

677
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:37,000
in prison. They believed that he was wrongly convicted. You know.

678
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,480
They believed this bullshit story because he's that good of

679
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:44,639
a liar. And now they're all like, oh my god,

680
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,360
you know now our friend is dead. We shouldn't have

681
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,639
believed him. We should have believed Michelle. And I'm like, well,

682
00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:55,440
maybe you or your children or somebody in your life

683
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,159
will be saved because you were touched by this. So

684
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:02,480
who knows. And that goes to tell you what a

685
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:08,960
excellent con man Matt Terry is. He is a self absorbed,

686
00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:13,360
narcissistic s ob, is what he is. And he's damn

687
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,559
good at what he does. He can make anyone believe

688
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,079
the lie that he is telling them. And of course,

689
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,000
you know, you know, his father is going to stick

690
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,519
up for him for the utmost, and his brothers stuck

691
00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:28,519
up for him and his family. They came to court,

692
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,639
they tried to victim see Michelle, they tried to intimidate her.

693
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,840
In fact, even after the fact the homicide in Florida,

694
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,960
when we were down in Florida testifying, you know, we

695
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,079
were asked to come down on a couple of occasions

696
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:46,920
and testify in that case. And even then, you know,

697
00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:51,679
mister Terry made comments to the Tampa Journal that in

698
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,559
the case involving Michelle that if he really wanted to

699
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:58,960
have harmed or killed Michelle, he would have. I'm thinking

700
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,199
to myself, were you not in the same trial I was,

701
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,480
Have you not seen amount of evidence? Have you not

702
00:42:04,639 --> 00:42:07,880
seen the seven stab wounds? You know, the broken molars,

703
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:11,639
the black eyes? Have you not seen the bite marks

704
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:14,679
on her face? And you're telling me that that self defense?

705
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,079
But that goes to tell you what kind of a

706
00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:22,480
twisted individual his dad, Mark Terry is. He made those

707
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:28,719
statements after he had murdered a woman in Florida, And

708
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:33,920
it's just outrageous. In fact, he even got caught when

709
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,400
he was testifying on behalf of his son during the

710
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,280
portion of the death penalty where he had gotten caught

711
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,280
once again on a jail call to his son the

712
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,880
night before, referring to Michelle in a derogatory term, and

713
00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:52,119
the prosecutor brought it to his attention, and of course

714
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:55,480
that stopped everything right there because there was an objection

715
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,639
and oh, you didn't bring this up. But yet it

716
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,760
was very clear that Matt Carey's father, Mark was talking

717
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,639
to his son on the phone after he had been

718
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,679
found guilty of first degree murder and we were testifying

719
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,519
in the penalty phase of a possible death penalty, that

720
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:19,920
he was still blaming Michelle Rogers for all his problems.

721
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:22,880
And I just thought, you are a piece of work,

722
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,440
and you're also a piece of something else. But it

723
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,679
just but tag goes to tell you where Matt Terry

724
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:34,039
comes from. That's that's that's how he was raised.

725
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:38,199
Speaker 1: Right after A. K. Baker's murder, her ex husband's contact

726
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,760
information was found in her wallet, so he and his

727
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,440
wife were brought to the station. Detectives knew who had

728
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,320
done this, but were careful with what they revealed, and

729
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,639
what they really wanted to know was what led up

730
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,599
to the violent outburst that left K bleeding out to die.

731
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,880
Okay sister in law share that on that day, a Friday,

732
00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:03,239
K's two boys were with her and Kay's brother for

733
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,599
their scheduled custody weekend. At around two pm, one of

734
00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:11,119
the boys called K to excitedly share that she had

735
00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:14,079
received a good score on a school test. It was

736
00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:16,519
the last day of the school year, and Kay began

737
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:20,639
celebrating early with her teacher friends and of course with Matthew.

738
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,440
When they were brought in, they had no idea what happened,

739
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,800
and they also had no idea that they would gain

740
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:42,559
full custody of K's two boys simply by default.

741
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:43,519
Speaker 8: Let me do this first.

742
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,559
Speaker 3: Do you have any contact for her, would be her

743
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:48,880
legal next of kin, parents, anything up north.

744
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: The issues started at a bar at around ten o'clock

745
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:57,440
that evening. This is one of Kay's friends who was

746
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:58,360
at the bar with her.

747
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,159
Speaker 12: Shortly after my says he's going to ask to sit down,

748
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:03,199
and he's going to say he wants to leave because

749
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,119
he's kind of had his fill on the DD and

750
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:08,719
I'm like, no, sweetie, let me say I think it's

751
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,760
getting kind of tense over here. I know that he

752
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,800
was getting very upset because he thought someone was in

753
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,480
the bar was dancing with Kay, or Kay was actually

754
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:21,719
dancing with this gentleman as well.

755
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,119
Speaker 1: The he that she's referring to is, of course, Matthew Terry.

756
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:29,119
Tara decided to take on the role of de escalator

757
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:33,239
for Kay. What she's describing involves Kay and another friend

758
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,440
at the bar that night.

759
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,519
Speaker 12: The way it was, the two of them went inside,

760
00:45:36,519 --> 00:45:39,079
went to the bathroom or whatever, came back and was

761
00:45:39,159 --> 00:45:42,000
dancing around at the bar, and a guy came from behind.

762
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:44,920
Kay even said she didn't notice him, and Kelly collaborated

763
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,320
that story, and I could tell by the way Kay

764
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,559
was acting she really didn't notice and know what he

765
00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:50,519
was talking about, but he.

766
00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 8: Was pretty upset about it.

767
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 12: So I slid over because traditionally I was sitting in

768
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,320
that and you see where that versus before I was

769
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,760
actually sitting, Ay was where I'm standing now.

770
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:02,679
Speaker 8: I moved over because I thought, you know, maybe I was.

771
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,519
Speaker 12: I didn't drink as much as everyone else because I

772
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:08,199
knew I'd be driving, So I slid down and I thought,

773
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:09,719
maybe I can make this kind of go away a

774
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:10,440
little bit, because you.

775
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,679
Speaker 8: Know, sometimes when people drink them that kind of stuff.

776
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 12: Happened, right, So I thought maybe I could calm this down.

777
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,360
And I basically just said listen, you know to him,

778
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,519
I said, if you.

779
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:24,119
Speaker 8: Must really love her a lot, and because you're getting.

780
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 12: So jealous, and I said, and she loves it, but

781
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:28,880
she loves you, write back, buddy, because she didn't even

782
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,679
notice the guy and he looked at me and he said,

783
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,159
wait a minute, what are you talking about getting jealous?

784
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,039
Speaker 8: And he goes, I'm not jealous, and he was that's

785
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:36,679
what right there.

786
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 7: He was upset.

787
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 12: He was talking to her the whole time, and I

788
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,800
was trying to calm it down. And that's when I

789
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,639
realized I might have even made it worse, because that

790
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,159
really made him upset, that word, that jealous word, like

791
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:50,320
his eyes popped and he didn't seem drunk.

792
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 8: Really, I know that Kay was, you know not I

793
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,199
wouldn't call her like falling over drunk.

794
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,679
Speaker 12: But they were drinking, and he was just really upset

795
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:00,159
with that word. And he goes, yeah, jealous means like

796
00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:01,960
you're envious. And I said, well, you know what I mean,

797
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:04,360
like you're jealous, like you care about her that you

798
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,960
want to make sure she's okay. You're protective, and he goes, yeah,

799
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:09,000
because she's beautiful, look at her, and I love her.

800
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 8: And I think I kind of just sort of appeased

801
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,840
him by changing around my words for him.

802
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,639
Speaker 12: But then Kelly kind of went back into another incident

803
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:19,880
that must have happened, I don't know, pretty close to

804
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,039
the night we were there, and she said, this isn't

805
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:24,000
going to be like on Saturday or whatever when we

806
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,840
were at Clearwater. You know, you knew this was our

807
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,360
celebratory night into school.

808
00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 8: You need to stop.

809
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 12: And I think her husband realized the waters had kind

810
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,000
of settled and got her to stop, and there was

811
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:34,480
a little bit more back and forth, and then it

812
00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:37,400
kind of chilled and I thought we were okay, but

813
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,320
I wasn't one hundred percent.

814
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,639
Speaker 8: I still felt a little bit attention.

815
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 12: That's why I texted her right away after I left.

816
00:47:42,639 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: Jara wasn't the only one at the bar who witnessed

817
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,519
the tension, and wasn't the only one who later checked

818
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:58,360
up on K This is her friend Kelly. Yeah, I

819
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,480
got there about third, took a.

820
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 8: Did you know did they leave before you or they

821
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:08,559
still there when.

822
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:14,079
Speaker 10: You and she was coming out of the bath and reached aback,

823
00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:16,800
and when we were just dancing features.

824
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:20,599
Speaker 3: Some old man.

825
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: What got At that point, her friend throws her arms

826
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,000
up into the air, demonstrating what she saw. It was

827
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:33,079
a harmless interaction with a complete stranger, an old man.

828
00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:36,880
As Kay and her friend Kelly left the bathroom, they

829
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,719
were in high spirits, laughing, celebrating the end of the

830
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,880
school year. The two were playfully dancing for just a

831
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,400
few seconds, enjoying the moment. Their positive energy seemed to radiate,

832
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,039
and an old man who happened to be walking by,

833
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:53,760
caught onto their vibe and started to mimic their carefree

834
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:59,519
dance as he moved past playfully, nothing sinister about it.

835
00:48:59,679 --> 00:49:02,400
They were barely even aware of his presence.

836
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 8: And just for the record, for the ALUs of the dance,

837
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,639
see what you're doing. You're just kind of raising your

838
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:11,159
arms up like you're dancing. Yes, So, I mean it

839
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:13,280
was like everybody walked away. I went to it off,

840
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:14,280
and she walked to the chair.

841
00:49:14,199 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 7: And so she had stopped to talk to a couple

842
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,119
of the.

843
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 10: Neighbor I sat down after the bathroom and he's like,

844
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,079
who's that guide became as dancing. Why she wasn't dancing

845
00:49:26,119 --> 00:49:29,159
with anybody. Somebody came up. We were dancing and somebody

846
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:29,760
came up to.

847
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 8: Us, and the kind was like sixy case.

848
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: Friends could tell that Matthew was pissed, but no one

849
00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:38,159
could understand why.

850
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:39,199
Speaker 5: I don't know.

851
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 8: I can't remember when he said it.

852
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 10: Then I guess he went over and said something to her,

853
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:45,400
and he's just like, oh, up to it, owing up

854
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:45,639
to it.

855
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:52,039
Speaker 8: She was like what, she didn't remember what had happened.

856
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,559
He seemed to look like we both kind of got

857
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:55,320
on and we were.

858
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 10: Like stepping an idiot, and so then he seemed to

859
00:49:58,920 --> 00:49:59,480
get over it.

860
00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: But then but then suddenly he wasn't over it. Because

861
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:11,320
that's how obsessive narcissists are, especially under the influence of alcohol.

862
00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:13,679
Give me a good four hours and I'll tell you

863
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,559
all about it. At some point after I don't know,

864
00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:19,760
maybe the third or fourth drink, it becomes all about

865
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,519
them and they're paranoid and controlling. As soon as Kay

866
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:27,360
and Matthew left, Kelly got a call from Kay on

867
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,440
the other end, asking her to verify that nothing had

868
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,039
happened with the old man. This call came in at

869
00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:37,599
around eleven forty eight pm, and within an hour she

870
00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:40,960
would be dead. Kay sent one last text saying all

871
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,599
good before she got home, and it wasn't all good.

872
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:52,039
The attack was relentless. Deep lacerations on both hands showed

873
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:56,800
k clearly fought back. Matthew stabbed her neck four times,

874
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,840
and each stab went deeper. He'd already had enough practice.

875
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,960
One stab wound to the front right of her neck

876
00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:08,679
was so deep it hit the spinal cord but narrowly

877
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,000
missed the carotid artery. A deep laceration to the back

878
00:51:13,039 --> 00:51:15,679
of her neck extended from the right side to the left,

879
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,320
cutting to her spine. The most catastrophic injuries were to

880
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,719
the left side of her neck. These forceful jabs were

881
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,320
so brutal that it was like someone with a machete

882
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:35,679
hacking through dense bushes. Slashes, stabs, erratic punctures, one of

883
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:39,320
which did sever her carotid artery. If she had lived,

884
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,280
she would have likely lost her voice because her larynx

885
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,760
was also torn. This was nothing but butchery.

886
00:51:48,559 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: He murdered somebody who went above and beyond, drove from

887
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,239
Florida to Michigan for Chrazt's sake, to, you know, comfort,

888
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,760
you visit you in prison, and this is the thank you,

889
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:03,239
invite you into your home in Florida, try and start

890
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,519
a life with you. You killed her. I'm like, well done.

891
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:12,519
I'm like I'm just yeah. And me personally, I could

892
00:52:12,559 --> 00:52:14,880
see this kind of coming a mile away. I was like,

893
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,199
this isn't the end for him, you know, my gun

894
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:21,119
instinct told me. I was like, yeah, he's going to

895
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:24,760
continue in this vein. And Michelle knew that too. I mean,

896
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,719
she pleaded with people to listen to her and they didn't.

897
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,519
They're all like, he's going to do this again. He

898
00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:33,760
is going to kill somebody. And they're like yeah, yeah, yeah,

899
00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:36,880
And what did he do? Within you know, a year

900
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,840
and a half, he killed somebody.

901
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: Initially, the state attorney chose not to pursue the death

902
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,760
penalty against Matthew. Case family wanted life in prison for

903
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,440
Matthew because they didn't want the drama and prolonged process

904
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,719
associated with the death penalty. But on August fourth, twenty

905
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,239
twenty two, Governor Ron DeSantis suspended the current state attorney

906
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:03,920
point at a new one. The following day, the previous

907
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,239
decision was reversed and a notice was filed to seek

908
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:12,519
the death penalty against him, citing the especially heinous nature

909
00:53:12,559 --> 00:53:16,440
of the crime and his history of violent behavior. The

910
00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:20,000
trial was a dark reminder of how the justice system

911
00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:24,079
sometimes gets it wrong and leaves grieving families feeling even

912
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:28,599
more empty. Once again, Matthew Terry would claim self defense,

913
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,239
but this time there was no victim to speak for herself.

914
00:53:34,360 --> 00:54:08,599
This would again fall on Michelle Rogers. In the aftermath

915
00:54:08,639 --> 00:54:12,039
of k Baker's twenty twenty two murder in Lithia, Florida,

916
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,519
grief turned into outrage. Her family, still reeling from the loss,

917
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,199
faced an unimaginable task of having to explain to her

918
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:26,000
two young sons that their mother was gone forever. Case

919
00:54:26,039 --> 00:54:29,599
friends and colleagues were shattered. The joy of the last

920
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:34,239
school day turned into disbelief as the news spread. How

921
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,079
could this have happened to someone so full of life,

922
00:54:37,119 --> 00:54:42,480
someone so much to give? But this wasn't just a tragedy.

923
00:54:42,519 --> 00:54:46,320
It was a failure. Matthew Terry had already shown the

924
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:52,400
world who he was, and we just ignored it and thought, man,

925
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:57,039
maybe he'll be better. In Michigan, he stabbed his ex

926
00:54:57,119 --> 00:55:01,039
girlfriend Michelle Rogers in a drunken frenzy she had survived

927
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:04,320
by sheer will, and yet the justice system handed him

928
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,840
only three years because somehow we're trying to normalize this behavior,

929
00:55:08,639 --> 00:55:11,280
maybe because it happens in certain communities that we want

930
00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:15,039
to lift up or something. I don't know, But why

931
00:55:15,039 --> 00:55:17,519
don't we just punish the things that are wrong and

932
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:21,960
let everything else sort itself out. Jesus fucking Christ, am

933
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:27,000
I the only sane person on earth? Anyway? Now Matthew

934
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:30,599
had taken Kay's life and once again pleaded not guilty,

935
00:55:31,519 --> 00:55:35,320
Michelle and Detective Crumbach were about to relive their twenty

936
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:36,559
seventeen nightmare.

937
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,599
Speaker 2: He's never going to show one of your remorse, you know, now,

938
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,079
he may, well, why I take that back. You know,

939
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:45,679
during the course of the trial in Florida, he sniffled

940
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:48,880
and sobbed and you know, things like that. But once again,

941
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,679
you got to remember what an actor he is. And

942
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,960
I'm sure he actually during the course of the trial,

943
00:55:55,039 --> 00:55:58,159
he made a comment that he wanted to testify, and

944
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,119
he made a comment to the later that you know,

945
00:56:01,199 --> 00:56:04,320
he said, well, I wanted to testify, but my attorneys

946
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,639
told me I couldn't, and they made me a promise.

947
00:56:06,679 --> 00:56:09,400
And this and that and the other thing, and you know, hey,

948
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,440
he's intelligent. You know, I think he was worried that

949
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:15,480
he was going to be found guilty of and charged

950
00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:18,719
with a death penalty, and he was already trying to

951
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:19,800
set his appeals up.

952
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: You're probably wondering how Matthew thought it was even remotely

953
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,800
possible to avoid a long prison sentence this time, or

954
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,760
at least how to avoid the death penalty. He was

955
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,840
someone everyone had already heard of about from the Michigan case,

956
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,039
including Michelle, who was a victim of his rage attack

957
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,800
and lived to tell about it. He and Daddy and

958
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:46,920
Daddy's expensive attorney already concocted a story. He got the

959
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,639
wrong guy, they said.

960
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 2: Because he did not testify. Is one of his lawyers

961
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,920
gave this long drawn out discussion in regards to what

962
00:56:59,039 --> 00:57:02,159
really happened, and basically it was, you know, the one

963
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,199
armed man theory. Somebody broke into the house and footsteps

964
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,840
were heard. People went outside, and it went to investigate,

965
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,280
and somebody had assaulted. Old matt showed up and he

966
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,599
was the hero of all these sort of things. And

967
00:57:15,639 --> 00:57:18,840
I was just like, nobody bought it for a millisecond,

968
00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:22,480
But they had to cook a story up and they did,

969
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,519
you know, and you know, unbelievable as it was, and

970
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:29,039
obviously no one believed it because in a case like this,

971
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,960
when a jury comes back in an hour and ten minutes,

972
00:57:32,559 --> 00:57:36,119
you're guilty, Like yeah, they didn't believe that. They paid

973
00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:41,320
close attention to the trial, and they paid very close

974
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,639
attention to the evidence, and they found him guilty.

975
00:57:44,639 --> 00:57:49,119
Speaker 1: The penalty phase was different from most. While prosecutors usually

976
00:57:49,159 --> 00:57:52,639
pursue the death penalty from the start, a twist in

977
00:57:52,679 --> 00:57:58,360
the case changed the trajectory, a political twist because crime

978
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:04,159
and politics sir twined in case you haven't figured that out. Initially,

979
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,880
the state attorney's office had indicated they wouldn't seek the

980
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,480
death penalty. Cay's family supported this decision because they just

981
00:58:12,559 --> 00:58:16,039
wanted relief. They didn't want to engage in the long

982
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:19,360
process of appeals. They knew where this was headed. But

983
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:22,119
when a new state attorney was appointed to the case,

984
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,679
he was determined to push for the ultimate punishment. As

985
00:58:26,719 --> 00:58:30,360
the jury deliberated Terry's fate, the tension in the courtroom

986
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,519
was palpable. Would he receive the death penalty or would

987
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:37,639
he spend the rest of his life in prison. Ky

988
00:58:37,679 --> 00:58:41,440
Baker's stepmother of thirty five years, asked Matthew some hard

989
00:58:41,519 --> 00:58:46,639
questions in her victim impact statement during the penalty phase proceeding.

990
00:58:48,719 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 4: What words did Kay say that night to justify you

991
00:58:53,480 --> 00:59:00,599
killing her? How bad could those words be? Did she

992
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:07,400
say Dad was right? Michelle was right? Was that what

993
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:14,280
got her death sentence? It is very unsettling, as apparent,

994
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:21,159
to fear for your daughter because as a partner they've chosen.

995
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:29,000
I feared for Kay's life. Her dad feared for Kay's life,

996
00:59:29,239 --> 00:59:31,159
and I don't understand why she did not.

997
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 8: I hope you fear for your life.

998
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: During the penalty phase, one last surprise guest showed up

999
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,880
to speak on behalf of k I have.

1000
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 11: That here this week and listened to everything that has happened,

1001
00:59:48,639 --> 00:59:51,920
everything that has been said. I have watched the giggles

1002
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,199
and the last and the complete and disrespect for a

1003
00:59:55,239 --> 00:59:56,119
woman's life.

1004
00:59:56,639 --> 01:00:01,639
Speaker 8: That woman is not here today. She is passed away, and.

1005
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:07,159
Speaker 11: I feel like it's a slack in the face, especially

1006
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,159
when I heard that there were no priors when you

1007
01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:12,360
were given instruction that there were.

1008
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 8: I was not allowed to.

1009
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,159
Speaker 11: Testify in any of this because I accepted misdemeanors rather

1010
01:00:19,239 --> 01:00:22,719
than pushing for a trial in felonies.

1011
01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:29,199
Speaker 1: Surprise, surprise, that was yet another girlfriend of Matthew Terry

1012
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,119
who he assaulted back in two thousand.

1013
01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:34,159
Speaker 8: He broke into my house.

1014
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:40,079
Speaker 11: I was assaulted my girlfriend, which was not any lesbian sense.

1015
01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:44,880
My friend that was a woman was also assaulted, and

1016
01:00:45,039 --> 01:00:47,280
he chased us around the house. When the police came,

1017
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,440
he pretended to be the victim rather.

1018
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:51,079
Speaker 8: Than the assailant.

1019
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:54,679
Speaker 11: And a lot of the things I heard today regarding

1020
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:58,800
case forgot today rather but this week we're very similar

1021
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:03,000
to the things that I enjoyed, and so I did

1022
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:05,800
not plan on saying anything today. I did not plan

1023
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,719
on being a part of this at all, but I

1024
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,960
feel that Kaye deserves that support.

1025
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:16,199
Speaker 1: Kay's mother expressed a hope that Matthew Terry would experience

1026
01:01:16,239 --> 01:01:21,039
the same fear he inflicted on others. The judge ensured

1027
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:22,519
he would have that chance.

1028
01:01:23,239 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 5: I listened to the testimony of Missus Rogers, both during

1029
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,039
the Williams Rule hearing and during the trial that we've

1030
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:42,840
been in here and additional testimony regarding the charges, the trial,

1031
01:01:43,719 --> 01:01:50,599
the sentence in Michigan. I don't know what happened in

1032
01:01:50,679 --> 01:01:55,440
Michigan as far as the trial and the sentence, But

1033
01:01:55,519 --> 01:02:00,000
based on what I heard, I believe that you should

1034
01:02:00,159 --> 01:02:04,880
have been in prison in Michigan and Miss Baker should

1035
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:09,400
still be alive. This is Florida. You're going to prison

1036
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:11,960
for the rest of your life.

1037
01:02:12,639 --> 01:02:17,079
Speaker 1: That should be on a T shirt. The added testimony

1038
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:21,760
of Matthew's girlfriend certainly helped informing the final sentence, but

1039
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,760
in reality, Michelle Rodgers played a pivotal role in revealing

1040
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:31,480
exactly who Matthew Terry was. She was determined that she

1041
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,760
wouldn't let him escape a sentence he deserved.

1042
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:40,199
Speaker 2: Michelle Rogers is probably one of the most outstanding, brave,

1043
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:45,880
tough victims that I've ever had the privilege of working for.

1044
01:02:46,239 --> 01:02:51,360
And she saved her own life. She recognized what was

1045
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,480
happening right in front of her. I don't think a

1046
01:02:54,519 --> 01:02:58,760
lot of people would have the fortitude and the strength

1047
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:04,760
to recognize what was happening immediately and saved their own life.

1048
01:03:05,159 --> 01:03:10,519
And after the fact, she was extremely brave and went forth.

1049
01:03:11,039 --> 01:03:15,880
In the trial was an overwhelming sense of people against her.

1050
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:20,920
Meeting matt Terry's family, Matt Terry's friends, they all kind

1051
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,280
of like pointed the finger at her, like she was

1052
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,360
the one who was at fault, that she was wrong,

1053
01:03:25,559 --> 01:03:29,599
that she somehow precipitated all these events against her, and

1054
01:03:29,679 --> 01:03:30,559
she certainly did not.

1055
01:03:31,679 --> 01:03:35,039
Speaker 1: Detective Crumbach also had a few choice things to say

1056
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,960
about the Michigan jury and the justice system. He doesn't

1057
01:03:40,079 --> 01:03:40,679
mince words.

1058
01:03:40,719 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: This guy. That's what you call a wishy, washy, dishwash

1059
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:47,360
dishrag type of a jury. You know, we'll find him

1060
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:51,679
guilty of something, but not what he actually did. And

1061
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,800
that's what happened. I don't have the names of all

1062
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,159
those jurors, but I hope to God every single one

1063
01:03:58,199 --> 01:04:01,760
of them, every single one of them knows what he

1064
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,119
did after the fact and what he did down in Florida.

1065
01:04:05,519 --> 01:04:08,239
And I hope it tortures their souls when they sleep

1066
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,840
at night, because they did an injustice not only for Michelle,

1067
01:04:13,159 --> 01:04:16,280
but they did an injustice for that victim down in

1068
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:21,320
Florida too. Ladies dead, two boys don't have a mother.

1069
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:26,079
Mom and dad think of her every single day. Her

1070
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:29,800
sisters think of her every single day. And it's all

1071
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,079
because a couple of jurors up here in Michigan didn't

1072
01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:37,400
do their job in a case where there was overwhelming

1073
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:42,679
evidence that was well prosecuted, and they found well, let's

1074
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:44,719
go with the lesser charge. And I will tell you

1075
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,519
in my career, I saw that happen many, many, many times.

1076
01:04:50,079 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: You know.

1077
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,199
Speaker 9: It makes me sad that, you know, I used to

1078
01:04:53,239 --> 01:04:54,960
say that I feel like when I went through my

1079
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,920
stuff in twenty seventeen that I feel like he got

1080
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,000
jypped on his sentencing because there wasn't a dead body.

1081
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:05,360
Because I was somehow miraculously slaved and I survived, he

1082
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,440
didn't get hit as hard as he should have, because

1083
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,679
there's always that doubt, right if you're not there and

1084
01:05:10,679 --> 01:05:12,239
you're not one of the two people that goes through

1085
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,880
it like, well maybe she is really not telling the

1086
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,559
truth or stretching the truth or whatever, right, And so

1087
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:21,599
because I wasn't dead, there was always that doubt, and

1088
01:05:21,679 --> 01:05:24,480
so he again I didn't feel like he got the

1089
01:05:24,519 --> 01:05:27,519
sentence that he necessarily deserved. But like with Kay, there

1090
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:30,519
was a dead body, right, so finally there was something

1091
01:05:30,519 --> 01:05:34,400
that was actual evidence and actual proof that he did this. Unfortunately,

1092
01:05:34,519 --> 01:05:37,639
you know, somebody had to die, and that's just so unfortunate,

1093
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,840
so unfortunate, and I feel like if someone just would

1094
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,320
have listened to me like, because you don't know how

1095
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,800
many people I tried to fight against his release and

1096
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,880
against him and just it felt like nobody was doing

1097
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,039
anything like nobody.

1098
01:05:52,039 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: Michelle Rogers survived because she saw Matthew Terry for who

1099
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,679
he truly was. She didn't fall for the excuses or

1100
01:06:00,079 --> 01:06:04,000
the hollow apologies. When the red flag started piling up,

1101
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:09,159
the controlling behavior, the bursts of rage, she tried to leave.

1102
01:06:10,199 --> 01:06:14,360
She recognized that staying meant putting herself and her son

1103
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,760
in danger. That awareness, that fight to escape is what

1104
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:23,960
ultimately saved her life, though not without leaving her with scars,

1105
01:06:24,159 --> 01:06:28,599
both visible and invisible, that she will live with forever.

1106
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:34,000
On the other hand, k Baker's story is different. It's

1107
01:06:34,039 --> 01:06:37,519
not that she missed the red flags entirely, but her

1108
01:06:37,559 --> 01:06:41,320
memory of Matthew, the Matthew she once knew back in

1109
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,880
high school, painted a picture of someone far removed from

1110
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,480
the man who committed these acts of violence. She was

1111
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:52,239
deceived by her own memory. Kay had such a good

1112
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:54,679
heart that she wanted to see the best in people

1113
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,800
even when it wasn't there. That kind of sentiment can

1114
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:04,119
get he killed. She wasn't naive or blind, She was hopeful,

1115
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,840
and that hope, paired with her loyalty to someone she

1116
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:13,360
once trusted, made her believe in the possibility of change.

1117
01:07:13,519 --> 01:07:19,599
Not everybody can change, and not everybody can be saved.

1118
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:24,079
It wasn't case fault. It was her kindness, her optimism,

1119
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:28,280
her unwavering faith in people that to find who she was.

1120
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,719
I mean, all those things are good things. We want

1121
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:35,920
to encourage that in people, right. We want a society

1122
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:42,079
where everyone is kind, is optimistic, and has faith in humanity.

1123
01:07:43,159 --> 01:07:47,559
But people like Matthew Terry ruin it because they exist.

1124
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:53,320
Matthew wasn't the person she thought she knew, and he

1125
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,960
exploited that, as monsters often do.

1126
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: You ultimately somebody that he can no longer control convince

1127
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,320
or I think that she no longer believed in him.

1128
01:08:08,039 --> 01:08:12,840
When he lost that control, he murdered. That goes to

1129
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,600
tell you what a just a useless human being that

1130
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:17,039
he is.

1131
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:36,199
Speaker 1: We all want to believe in people. We all want

1132
01:08:36,239 --> 01:08:39,439
to trust the version of someone we hold in our minds,

1133
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:45,880
the good one. We all want to think positively. But

1134
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,960
let's not forget that we live in reality, not a

1135
01:08:50,079 --> 01:08:54,520
Disney contrived fiction. It comes down to the fundamental base

1136
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,760
code of what makes us who we are, and it's

1137
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:05,159
a tough bounce to get right. Optimism versus pessimism, seeing

1138
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:09,760
the good in people versus fearing the worst. I'll tell

1139
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,840
you it's very hard to get right. It's something I

1140
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:17,520
still struggle with every day. I tend to be more pessimistic,

1141
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:23,640
but I can see the value in being optimistic despite

1142
01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:27,640
the danger. We all want to keep a version of

1143
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:31,199
the people around us that's shaped by our memories, added

1144
01:09:31,239 --> 01:09:34,199
with our own good character, and make that the real

1145
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:36,800
version of the person that is in front of us.

1146
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:41,159
But people like Matthew Terry turn that trust into a weapon,

1147
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,840
and they do it seamlessly. It's just about seeing the

1148
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,760
red flags. It's about being able to be aware enough

1149
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:54,479
to distance yourself when you spot them. Maybe start protecting

1150
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:58,119
yourself because you're the only one in charge of that.

1151
01:09:59,159 --> 01:10:02,920
I guess the why est lesson that can be derived

1152
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,520
from something like this is that it's important to listen.

1153
01:10:07,399 --> 01:10:11,720
It's important to open up our minds to what could

1154
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:16,960
be other than what we think is. Michelle tried to

1155
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,239
warn us, She tried to warn us all, and we

1156
01:10:20,359 --> 01:10:24,560
all just ignored her. We're all so locked into our

1157
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,920
own belief systems and resistant to change. We just can't

1158
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:34,520
see different points of view sometimes until the worst has happened,

1159
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,279
And then we look back and we see the bodies

1160
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,520
behind us and wonder if it's maybe time to start

1161
01:10:42,560 --> 01:11:36,319
listening to those who keep warning us. Yeah, Cheryl keeps

1162
01:11:36,319 --> 01:11:40,119
wanting about the patriarchy. Oh hi, we've reached the end

1163
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:41,840
of the show. So this is where I tell you

1164
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,640
to help independent creators like us by heading over to

1165
01:11:44,720 --> 01:12:28,159
swordanscail dot com and signing up for plus or don't,

1166
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:32,119
I don't care, I don't know does reverse psychology even work?

1167
01:12:33,319 --> 01:12:37,399
Don't get Sordenskaille plus. I forbid you to get Swordan's

1168
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:45,279
Kale plus at swordscale dot com.