1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:48,280 Bill Thomas. We're back with the second episode of our 16 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:52,439 deep dive into the dB Cooper skyjacking case from nineteen 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,399 seventy one. We still do not have answers as to 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,439 who DeBie Cooper actually is and what what happened to 19 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:03,560 him when he parachuted into the night on November twenty fourth, 20 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,560 nineteen seventy one. But what do we have a lot 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,000 of suspects, and we're going to continue our rundown of 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,359 those suspects here in just a couple of seconds. 23 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: Before we start. I have to congratulate you for referring 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,920 to this as a deep dive, because I'm sure all 25 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:26,159 puns were intended regarding the sky jacker Dan dB Hooper. 26 00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: All puns were absolutely as intended. 27 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. I love all the suspects. My favorite is 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,680 the first one we mentioned last time, Richard Floyd McCoy junior. 29 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:42,280 He's my favorite by a wide margin. On of these 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,599 other people, including the next one we're going to talk about. 31 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:51,079 I'm really skeptical a lot of people just seem to 32 00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:53,879 be making these claims like, oh, I was Dan Cooper, 33 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:57,120 I was DBE Hooper, and there's nothing really to back 34 00:01:57,159 --> 00:01:57,519 it up. 35 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, this next one I think is particularly funny, largely 36 00:02:03,079 --> 00:02:05,959 because of the coda at the end of it. So 37 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:09,759 this we discussed four suspects last time after we went 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,360 over the basics of the case, and if you have 39 00:02:12,479 --> 00:02:15,120 not had a chance to listen to that first episode, 40 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,319 please do go back and listen to it, otherwise you're 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,919 missing a lot of context here. Suspect five on the 42 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,719 list is a guy named William Pratt Gossett. The proof 43 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,759 offered for William Pratt Gossipt's other life as d B. 44 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:32,879 Cooper comes from his son Greg. Greg claimed that on 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,479 his twenty first birthday, his father, Salt Lake City talk 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,360 radio host William Pratt Gossett, showed him two safety deposit 47 00:02:41,439 --> 00:02:45,120 box keys and claimed that inside was the money from 48 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:49,960 the skyjacking, which he had committed as Dan Cooper. Greg's 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,080 older brother, Kirk, had also heard the story of. 50 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: The D B. 51 00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: Cooper case and the money. He also backed up the 52 00:02:56,439 --> 00:02:59,199 claims and said that his father quote had the type 53 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:04,240 of temperament to do something like this end quote. That 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,599 is all that is offered in this particular instance, which 55 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,240 led the FBI to state unequivocally, there is not enough 56 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,639 evidence in this story to prove that William Pratt Gossett 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,080 was involved in the skyjacking. In fact, FBI Special Agent 58 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:23,919 Larry Carr said it best when he said, quote, there 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,599 is not one link to the D. B. Cooper case 60 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,240 other than the statements gossip made to someone. End quote. 61 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,439 Speaker 2: This is FBI Special Agent Larry Carr speaking, and basically, 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,240 this is FBI speak for this guy, William Pratt gossip 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,039 is full of beans because this is a thin file, 64 00:03:44,599 --> 00:03:45,560 to put it mildly. 65 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:50,199 Speaker 3: My favorite that's sort of the cream on top of 66 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,960 the whole entire cake, is this little piece of information 67 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,400 that I found. Michael Natale, who did a wonderful job 68 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,680 writing down all of the ins and outs of this 69 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,400 case for Popular Mechanics, noted at the end of his 70 00:04:03,479 --> 00:04:06,479 section on William Pratt gossip quote. It's been more than 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,560 fifteen years since that ABC News story, and it does 72 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:13,159 not appear anyone has bothered to check that alleged safety 73 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:14,159 deposit box. 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,319 Speaker 2: That's a bit of a disc don't you think you could. 75 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 3: Have just opened the thing and figured out if Skyjack 76 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:22,240 money was in there? 77 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's nothing else to prove that gossip was involved. 78 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:29,800 And I love the fact that he's a talk radio 79 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,720 host who certainly knew how to talk and spin a yarn. 80 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:37,639 This doesn't wash for me at all. 81 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: I left one bit of information out of that talk 82 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,399 radio host thing, just because I wondered if it might 83 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,759 strain credibility a bit, But the sort of the whole 84 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,560 thing does. He was a talk radio host with an 85 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:55,160 interest in paranormal Oh why did I know that. 86 00:04:56,639 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: I knew you were going to say the occult, paranor 87 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:06,920 paranormal range things. Oh, come on, this one, Eh, doesn't work. 88 00:05:07,519 --> 00:05:11,839 Suspect number five, William Pratt gossip, don't bother, don't bother. 89 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: Suspect number six Walter R. RecA. This one is interesting 90 00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:18,079 because he is a former paratrooper. 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, now he's got at least some of the skill set. 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: The other reason that people seem to think he might 93 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,040 actually be dB Cooper was because he didn't only confess 94 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:28,879 to it, like he came out and said I was 95 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:33,120 dB Cooper, but he also specifically described how he pulled 96 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,240 off the hijacking, and that was given in an audio 97 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,439 taped confession to his friend Carl Lauren, who went on 98 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,680 to write the book D B. Cooper and Me A Criminal, 99 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,879 A Spy, my best friend. It's an evocative book title. 100 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:48,759 Speaker 2: It is a good title. 101 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 3: Lauren claimed he had additional evidence beyond the audio recording. 102 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,759 There nobody really said what that was beyond documents. The 103 00:05:58,759 --> 00:06:03,199 Oregon Live reported that Lauren possessed documents detailing how he 104 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,199 allegedly used a large portion of Recca's two hundred thousand 105 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:08,759 dollars heist money. 106 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: I'm not convinced, but the fact that RecA was a 107 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:15,639 former paratrooper is interesting to start with. 108 00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: The refutation offered on this one is interesting. It's in 109 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,600 the realm of reasonable doubt. While Reca's confession is detailed, 110 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,120 there are also major discrepancies. Recca claimed that he landed 111 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,120 in clay Alam, Washington, where he went to a roadside 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,079 diner and asked a dump truck driver to give his 113 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,839 friend directions to the diner over the phone. The problem 114 00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:38,920 is that clay Allam is over one hundred and fifty 115 00:06:38,959 --> 00:06:42,319 miles from dB Cooper's presumed landing area given the aircraft's 116 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,120 position during his jump, so that's a little bit of 117 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,040 an issue. It was also noted that Recca did not 118 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,040 match the sketched composite of Cooper. There is a lot 119 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:57,040 of reasonable doubt. Even though the confession is rather detailed. 120 00:06:57,079 --> 00:07:00,959 Speaker 2: It's not real clear here. Now obviously this is fifty 121 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,120 four years ago. It sounds like mister Reckham may be 122 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,360 dead by this point, and particularly the way Karl Lauren 123 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,800 refers to him. This one, I think is a bit 124 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,639 of a stretch. The detailed confession, though, is something I 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,639 really liked. The inconsistency seems to be where he claimed 126 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,480 he landed, which is one hundred and fifty miles off course. 127 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,959 Speaker 3: Suspect seven, Robert Rastraw, This one's interesting, Like I don't 128 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,600 think he is good for it, and he actually doesn't 129 00:07:33,639 --> 00:07:35,480 think he is either. We'll get to that in a second, 130 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:38,720 but I like the backstory here behind it. Number one, 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,759 Robert Rackstraw is a pilot, all right, So we've got 132 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,959 one skill set pilot in Vietnam that Robert Rackstraw had 133 00:07:44,959 --> 00:07:48,600 been on law enforcement's radar for reasons other than the 134 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,959 dB Cooper case since nineteen seventy seven. Writing bad checks 135 00:07:53,199 --> 00:07:55,000 was one of them, to the tune of seventy five 136 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,600 thousand dollars. He was under suspicion of murdering his own stepfather, 137 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:02,839 a crime for which he was acquitted later, and then 138 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:08,519 just I don't know reasons, Robert Rackstraw cemented his own 139 00:08:08,519 --> 00:08:11,720 bad boy rap by faking his own death and crashing 140 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:13,040 a plane into Monterey Bay. 141 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,879 Speaker 2: Now let me just stop you here. Who among us 142 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,800 hasn't wanted to fake our own death and crash into 143 00:08:19,879 --> 00:08:21,399 Monterey Bay? Seriously? 144 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't. I can think that there were probably 145 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,360 better ways of going off the grid and faking your 146 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:31,319 own death. But he went with let's crash into Monterey Bay. 147 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,559 This he did it with style. 148 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: YEP. I also feel this might be the right time 149 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,360 to confess that in my next life, I'm coming back 150 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:43,879 as a sea Otter and I'm going to be living 151 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:48,320 in the Monterey Bay, eating abaloni and enjoying the company 152 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,799 of attractive young what shall we say, otter babes. 153 00:08:53,799 --> 00:08:55,799 Speaker 3: There you go. You really gave that a lot of thought, 154 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:56,080 didn't you. 155 00:08:56,279 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, this is my next life. I've got 156 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:59,279 it all mapped out. 157 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,759 Speaker 3: I hope that's taken into account. Then when you win 158 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,639 this one and start thinking about next one, I hope 159 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:06,559 you get a choice. 160 00:09:06,919 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: I hope so too. I'm going to try to be 161 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,320 better behaved in the latter part of my life here 162 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,039 so that I can select the Otter option next time around. 163 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:18,799 Speaker 3: And that means you're going to stop antagonizing the bureau. 164 00:09:19,799 --> 00:09:23,799 Speaker 2: No, I'm on the side of righteousness on that one. 165 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:28,879 Speaker 3: There we go. Oxtra did claim to people that he 166 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,120 was dB Cooper, even going so far as to say 167 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:37,600 to author and investigator Tom Colbert, Yeah, I've claimed that 168 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,879 I was dB Cooper. Tom Colbert really strongly believed in 169 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,159 Robert Restraw's guilt. In fact, he built a case against 170 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,879 Restraw using the FBI's own dB Cooper files, which he 171 00:09:51,919 --> 00:09:54,519 got them to release by sending in a Foyer request. 172 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:00,279 Good for him and his own research. Interesting, Yes, so 173 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:07,080 Tom Colbert was like positive, this guy's Robert Restraw. The refutation, though, 174 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,919 against Rextraw, is Restraw himself. After Tom Colbert looked really 175 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,480 closely at him and even included him on his History 176 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,240 Channel documentary series d B Cooper Case closed, Rastraw found 177 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,559 the surge in interest in him because of the surgeon 178 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,639 interest in dB Cooper wasn't something that he wanted. 179 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,279 Speaker 2: This is yet another potential suspect who suddenly seems to 180 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,000 regret putting out this claim. I'm dB Cooper, I was 181 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,960 Dan Cooper, I stole this money, I hijacked this plane. 182 00:10:42,919 --> 00:10:46,039 This is an open case, and the FBI was still 183 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,519 very committed to arresting Dan Cooper if they could find 184 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,840 him and prove that a particular individual was responsible for 185 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:59,240 this hijacking. It suddenly occurs to these folks that this 186 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,759 might not be smart move. 187 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: Robert Rostraw said, it's a lot of expletive to people 188 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:10,639 magazine following the airing of the show dB Cooper Case closed. 189 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,240 He also said that the notoriety of that series cost 190 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,000 him his job. 191 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding. 192 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, So Robert Rostraw passed away in twenty nineteen, and 193 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,440 he firmly denied any involvement in the dB Cooper Case 194 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,200 until the end of his life. 195 00:11:27,399 --> 00:11:29,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one didn't fly for me either. 196 00:11:30,879 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 3: So this one is interesting, this final suspect here, and 197 00:11:34,039 --> 00:11:38,919 again I gave the I gave the caveat last episode 198 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,679 that I had not had a chance to cover all 199 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:44,519 of the suspects, even most of them, and probably not 200 00:11:44,639 --> 00:11:48,000 some people's favorites, But this is what I had time for. 201 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,519 But this one I thought was interesting. So this new 202 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,679 suspect newer is a guy by the name of Vince Peterson. 203 00:11:56,159 --> 00:11:58,879 So the newest suspect in the dB Cooper Case comes 204 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:02,360 to us from amateur sleep. Eric ellis, star of History's 205 00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:07,519 Greatest Mysteries. He stated that he formed his new hypothesis 206 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,679 on the identity of the Skyjacker when he looked at 207 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,639 a decade old scientific report on Cooper's tie, which, as 208 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,960 I said last episode, he pulled off with a flourish 209 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,559 and left behind on the plane before he jumped. 210 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: I love that flare for drama. 211 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm going to quote here from a People magazine article. 212 00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:32,200 The tie contained quote one hundred thousand particles containing part 213 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:38,200 stainless steel and part titanium end quote. Ullis tracked that 214 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,600 smidge of detail from a decade old scientific report on 215 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,720 the Cooper case and used US patent information to trace 216 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:52,720 particle fragments from the tie to Crucible Steel of Pennsylvania quote, 217 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:56,799 headquartered in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, a significant subcontractor all 218 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:00,080 throughout the nineteen sixties. It supplied the lion's share of 219 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:04,759 titanium and stainless steel for Boeing's aircraft, Ellis said of 220 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:07,279 the metal fabric shop. So remember it was a Boeing 221 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,320 seven to twenty StepN that Cooper skyjacked. Right. So Vince 222 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,840 Peterson died in two thousand and two, So obviously this 223 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:19,240 is somebody who cannot currently offer refutation as to their 224 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,240 innocence or guilt. The FBI does have the neck tie, 225 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,639 and Ellis has allegedly stated, and this was what I 226 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,639 was a little fuzzy on this. He stated that he 227 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:33,399 was going to sue the FBI to get access to 228 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,120 the tie. But I looked through as much reporting as 229 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:39,919 I could find, and I couldn't find whether or not 230 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:44,440 he had actually followed through with a lawsuit, or whether 231 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,120 he had just said I'm going to sue to get 232 00:13:48,159 --> 00:13:53,039 the tie essentially, So for refutation I said, There's been 233 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,600 no refutation of the suspect, at least not that I 234 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:59,679 was able to find in my time researching. There hasn't 235 00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:06,480 been any testing of its truth or veracity either. Popular 236 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:10,480 Mechanics covered articles on the break in the case in 237 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,480 twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four. During that reporting, 238 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,840 Eric Ellis mentioned a number of times that he was 239 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:23,399 choosing to sue the FBI to get access to the tie. 240 00:14:23,799 --> 00:14:29,759 But the only information that I could find on that 241 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,759 process is a quote from an article in twenty twenty 242 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:38,519 three by Tim Neukom, who says quote Ellis believes the FBI, 243 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,000 along with not providing DNA results in over twenty years 244 00:14:42,279 --> 00:14:44,799 and ending any work on the case in twenty sixteen, 245 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,360 may have not known about the metal and the clip 246 00:14:47,399 --> 00:14:50,399 on tie due to conversations he had with investigators after 247 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,960 the fact he asked to personally analyze the tie. The 248 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,600 FBI has granted access to private parties in the past, 249 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,639 but was denied, so he's taking his fight to the 250 00:14:59,679 --> 00:15:02,679 next level, hopeful he'll find DNA that can prove his 251 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:06,480 theories that gives us the ability to take dB Cooper's 252 00:15:06,559 --> 00:15:10,200 DNA and reverse engineer this and identify his family, nephew's nieces, 253 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,879 and people of that nature. Alis says, there have been 254 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,080 no updates that I could find about the attempt to 255 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,879 get the tie from the FBI, any further testing or 256 00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:25,919 anything else about DNA left on the plane. The sixty 257 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,960 four thousand dollars question of our any of these people 258 00:15:29,039 --> 00:15:33,159 dB Cooper is still the sixty four thousand dollars question. 259 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: Putting this particular suspect aside, it would be interesting to 260 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:42,159 see if the use of investigative genetic genealogy might prove 261 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,720 to be able to identify DNA that might have been 262 00:15:45,799 --> 00:15:48,879 left on the tie, and then, of course, working backwards, 263 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,240 we might be able to identify him through a family connection. 264 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,639 So that's an interesting idea. I don't necessarily think that 265 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,759 this would prove it was Vince Peterson, although it could, 266 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,000 but I think this is an interesting possibility. I'd love 267 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,799 to see them test the tie and see if they 268 00:16:07,799 --> 00:16:11,000 can extract any working DNA profiles from it. 269 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,159 Speaker 3: No, I agree, and again I do want to just 270 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,840 off for the caveat here. There's so much out there 271 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,840 about dB Cooper. I wish that I had time to 272 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:24,080 watch the History's Greatest Mysteries episodes, all of the documentaries 273 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,320 and everything out there on dB Cooper. It is entirely 274 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,639 possible that there are new pieces of information out there 275 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:33,000 related to the Cooper case that I was not able 276 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:36,600 to provide for this reporting. So if anybody does have 277 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:41,559 that information about the testing, the tie, any of these suspects, 278 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:44,159 and stuff that we don't know, please provide it. We 279 00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:46,200 would love to know more and we'd love to be 280 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,519 able to continue reporting. So if anybody knows stuff, let 281 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,639 us know. We would love to continue reporting. 282 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 283 00:16:55,559 --> 00:17:03,360 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 284 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:07,599 mindover Murder. And for older listeners, if you're ready to 285 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,240 confess that you are Dan Cooper, we'd love to have 286 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:13,559 you on as a guest here on Mind over Murder. 287 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,079 They'd be getting up there though. Let's see if he 288 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:25,039 was thirty ish, which might be on the young side. 289 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 3: They said he was in his forties, or at least 290 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,440 they thought he was in his forties. 291 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: We hope you're still out there feeling healthy and maybe 292 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,119 a little bit confessional. We'd love to have you on 293 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,000 Mind over Murder. 294 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,559 Speaker 3: There is so much about the dB Cooper case that 295 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,920 is fascinating, and so our last section of the pod 296 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:49,039 today is talking about this enduring popularity of dB Cooper. 297 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,519 Why are we still interested in this guy? So author 298 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:56,599 Jeffrey Gray explained the long lasting mythos of dB Cooper. 299 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,279 I liked this quote from him quote, it almost became 300 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,839 a Thanksgiving ritual for people over the years, Let's go 301 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,640 in the woods and see if we can find D. B. 302 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:08,720 Cooper's money. And it wasn't only Laman in the woods. 303 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:13,559 It was treasure hunters, amateur sluice reporters, just people curious 304 00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:16,559 to see if buried treasure was out there or Cooper's 305 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:18,839 body was hanging from a branch en. 306 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 2: A terrible image, this poor guy in a sling, his parachute, 307 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,119 all tangled in a tree. 308 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,839 Speaker 3: For true crime reporters, investigators and sluice like himself discovering 309 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,319 dB Cooper's real identities tantamount to discovering the real identity 310 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,440 of Jack the Ripper and the Zodiac. When Jeffrey Gray 311 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:40,599 was in conversation with Guy Raz of NPR, Gray said, 312 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:42,799 this is a huge case. To close the deal on 313 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,240 dB Cooper is tantamount of finding the last Dutchman mine 314 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,039 in reporter Land Raz added, this is the holy grail. 315 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,119 This is the holy grail for crime reporters, and Gray said, 316 00:18:54,319 --> 00:18:55,359 it's better. 317 00:18:55,039 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: Than that, ugh, and why do we think that is? Is? 318 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 3: Michael Matale, for his reporting in Popular Mechanics, interviewed podcasters 319 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,400 Sean and Carrie McCabe, who hosts the podcast Ain't It Scary? 320 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:15,119 With Sean and Carrie what an It's adorable. It rhymes 321 00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:20,000 it's adorable. They talked a little bit about deb Cooper's popularity, 322 00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:22,839 and so these are quotes from these these podcasters, Sean 323 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,319 and Kerry McCabe. Sean said, first, like all of the 324 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:29,680 best true crime stories, it's because there's no clear answer. 325 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:32,440 We don't know who the guy was. We likely never 326 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:35,559 will know for sure, and that leaves room for everyone 327 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,680 to bring their own opinions and their own investigator hat 328 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,759 and speculate without any fear of ever really being proven wrong. 329 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:44,559 I think there's something to that. 330 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: I think there is two and I love this next 331 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:49,680 quote from Carrie McCabe. 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,519 Speaker 3: Carrie suggests that it's also the nature of Cooper's crime 333 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:56,039 that keeps people coming back to it. Quote dB, Cooper 334 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,200 was a cool figure. He didn't hurt anybody, aside from 335 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,880 maybe himself in his crime. He didn't use aggressive physical force. 336 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:05,599 I think that makes him an object of fascination that 337 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,559 people can be more openly interested in than say, a 338 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,680 serial killer. Being interested in true crime often comes with 339 00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:14,559 a lot of caveats. Oh, I don't like Jeffrey Dahmer. 340 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:18,000 I just like learning about his pathology, etc. But with 341 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:21,319 Cooper's relatively victimless crime, you don't have to feel creepy 342 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,119 if you're interested. 343 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 2: This is something you and I were talking about a 344 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,880 little bit off air, which is we know that a 345 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,079 lot of people are fascinated by serial killers and other 346 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,519 offenders like that, and I do understand it to some extent. 347 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,799 This is a situation with Cooper where as I mentioned 348 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:43,319 last time on the podcast, he's almost a mythical folk 349 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,480 hero because he didn't hurt anyone and he stole two 350 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:52,359 hundred thousand dollars from the man, but there was no 351 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:57,000 violence as far as we know. And he yes, he 352 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,920 threatened that he had an explosive device with him in 353 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,440 his bag, but that could have easily been a bag 354 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,440 of road flares and some wires for all we know. 355 00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:13,559 And so on some level, debe Cooper takes on this 356 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,039 almost mythical reputation. But I think one of the reasons 357 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:21,559 why people find him so fascinating is he's not really 358 00:21:21,759 --> 00:21:23,279 characterized as a bad guy. 359 00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:29,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, exactly, it is. It's one of those fun, 360 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,119 entertaining bits of speculation that you can spend all day 361 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:37,079 talking about, or just a few minutes talking about, but 362 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,960 your conversation is going to be fun and lighthearted. It's 363 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,799 the same way that you can spend a while talking 364 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:45,559 about aliens or the Lucknus Monster, or where Amelia Earhart 365 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:49,079 actually landed what actually happened to her, And it's an 366 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:53,319 interesting thought experiment, but it's we're probably never going to know, 367 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:54,200 and that's okay. 368 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:58,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned Amelia Earhart. That's a topic, 369 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,039 by the way, that if Pam and I are watching 370 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:07,200 TV and we happen to see some program, often new 371 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,000 about Amelia Airhart. I can pretty much guarantee we'll watch 372 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:13,920 it because we find that to be a fascinating case 373 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:19,839 as well, and there's always lots of potential rabbit holes 374 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,480 you can go down in the Ameliar Airhart case. By 375 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:26,640 the way, there's also a tie in both examples. I'm 376 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:32,039 very interested in flying, and planes and aviation hold a 377 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,480 lot of interest for me, and I'm a bit of 378 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:38,200 a history buff as well, So a case like BB 379 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:43,799 Cooper can really just grab on in a in positive way, because, 380 00:22:43,839 --> 00:22:48,960 like I said, he's not seen as this dark evil figure. 381 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,039 He's a guy who managed to outsmart everybody and apparently 382 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,359 jumped out of a plane and may have even survived. 383 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,759 Next week, we'll be continuing our conversation about dB Cooper 384 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:05,200 with a very interesting guest. Kristen reached out to Darren Shaefer, 385 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,720 who is the proprietor of something called the Cooper Vortex, 386 00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:14,559 which is some of the most interesting available information about 387 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,720 dB Cooper. We'll talk to Darren Schaefer about the ongoing 388 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:23,279 mythos of dB Cooper, why he's still so fascinating to 389 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,920 so many people, and where the investigation might go. That'll 390 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,920 run next Monday and just a reminder. The format on 391 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:36,640 mindover Murder is that we have a new episode every Monday, 392 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,960 which we hope you enjoy, and then every Thursday we 393 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,680 run one of our classic episodes. So if you're only 394 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,119 interested in brand new content here at mindover Murder, that's 395 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,839 every Monday. And if you are interested in going back 396 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,319 and listening to earlier episodes which you may or may 397 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,319 not have heard, those are also available on Thursdays. Either way, 398 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,519 we hope you'll join us every week here on mindover Murder. 399 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: So I want to end with an excellent quote here 400 00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:08,200 from Jeffrey Gray. He was talking to NPR's Guy Rows 401 00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:12,119 on All Things Considered, and Guy was asking him about 402 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,640 his own trip down the dB Cooper rabbit hole and 403 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,400 trying to discover dB Cooper's identity, and he said, what 404 00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:21,119 I ran into with something called the Cooper Curse, and 405 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,039 the Cooper Curse is something that affects all Cooper hunters 406 00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:28,640 the closer they get to unmasking the hijacker's identity, and 407 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,119 it's hard not to get obsessed with it because we 408 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,519 just don't know. There was somebody who boarded that plane 409 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,559 that night. So the fact that we don't know then 410 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,559 not knowing continues to gnaw at me. There is, though 411 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,640 a difference between the dB Cooper myth that we want 412 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,799 to believe in, but there's also the real story of 413 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,599 Dan Cooper, and what I was able to find is 414 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,160 that it's a totally different story. In my opinion, I 415 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,160 believe the actual hijacker was somebody who was not a hero, 416 00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:00,880 who was a loser, who was alone, or who was depressed. 417 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,799 He was after, in his last gasp, trying to make 418 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:08,079 something of his life, the ability to achieve one fine 419 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,160 thing end quote. I think it is an interesting way 420 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:11,759 to look at it. 421 00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see it that way at all. I 422 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,160 don't see Dan Cooper as a loser. I think it's 423 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,880 a fascinating story. I do get why some of our 424 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,039 suspects that we've gone over in these last two episodes 425 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,680 have sometimes wanted to confess that they are Dan Cooper. 426 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,640 I don't see him as a loser at all. He 427 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,480 pulled off an amazing stunt, and if he survived, I 428 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:41,799 don't know. It still holds a tremendous amount of interest 429 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,960 for me, and I have a hard time looking at 430 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:48,039 him in a negative light. Obviously, what he did was 431 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:51,039 wrong and criminal, and he put a bunch of people 432 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:54,359 at risk and stole two hundred thousand dollars that didn't 433 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,319 belong to him. I'd still be interested in interviewing him. 434 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,200 And if Dan, if you're out there, we'd love to 435 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,880 have you come and talk to us onlind Over Murder. 436 00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:06,759 Speaker 3: You got it, So who was dB Cooper? The world 437 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,960 may never know, but we want to know your theories, 438 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,839 so please leave your theories in the comments. And yeah, 439 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,960 if you happen to know someone who you think was 440 00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:18,799 dB Cooper, let us know your story. We'd love to 441 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,359 be able to tell it. And speaking of Crime Con, 442 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,119 we do have Crime Con. We are back again on 443 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,359 Creator's Row. We may have some other things in the 444 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,519 work too, but right now we've just been confirmed for 445 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,279 Creator's Row, so that is going to be September five, six, 446 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,480 and seven in Denver, Beautiful, Denver, Colorado. We do have 447 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:43,599 a discount code or coupon code for anybody who is 448 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,839 looking to buy their tickets for Crime Con. So if 449 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,880 you would like ten percent off your ticket for Crime 450 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,519 Con Denver, use the coupon code mind Over Murder All 451 00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:01,000 one word, which you get ten percent off your tickets. 452 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: Where'd you get that great code? It's just so clear. 453 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,039 Speaker 3: It's so wonderful. It was given to me as a 454 00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:12,000 gift by our wonderful friends at crime Con. The best 455 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:14,519 part about using that code, though, folks, is that it 456 00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,599 does help us get some some discounts on our lodging 457 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,680 and airfare and various things like that. Crime Con is 458 00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:25,160 very expensive, and we are happy to be there. Anything 459 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,480 that can kind of help mitigate that. We definitely appreciate 460 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,400 mind Over Murder for ten percent off your tickets. If 461 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,039 you are planning on going, please use our coupon code 462 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,160 because that does help us out a little bit. We 463 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,000 are looking forward to seeing you in Denver, and hopefully 464 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:44,839 we will have some more news about other potential happenings 465 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,200 in Denver before September rolls around. 466 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,839 Speaker 2: Hey, weren't some of these dB Cooper suspects from Denver? 467 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,799 We should be looking into that while we're there. 468 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 3: I agree that is going to do it for this 469 00:27:56,039 --> 00:27:59,519 episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 470 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:01,640 We'll see you next time. 471 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,319 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 472 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,839 Another Dog Productions. 473 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 474 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:23,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 475 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 476 00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 477 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,599 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 478 00:28:34,799 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 479 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,359 Murders on Facebook. 480 00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:42,079 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 481 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:43,720 Bill Thomas. Five six. 482 00:28:44,200 --> 00:29:10,519 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.