WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.480 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip cast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:24.079 October fourteenth. I am Matthew Watkins, editor in chief of 3 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:28.280 the Texas Tribune, joined as usual by Politics and Justice 4 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:29.679 reporter Eleanor Klebanoff. 5 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.240 Hell, still not my title, Law and. 6 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.679 Politics, Law in politics, politics, justice. 7 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.840 Politics, the you know, law and order and CSI and 8 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:42.119 justice politics reporter. 9 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.479 Yeah. I will get it at some point, or maybe 10 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.399 I won't. Yeah, maybe not. Keeps working. How are you doing. 11 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:51.200 I'm doing well. And there's a real full chill in 12 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:51.479 the air. 13 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:52.759 Oh yeah, low nineties. 14 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:53.880 Yeah, it's amazing. 15 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:56.840 Yeah, I really enjoyed that at acl Fest. 16 00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.719 Yeah, were you at a cl I was, and. 17 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.200 I continue to be too old for them. I only 18 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:09.359 went on Saturday with my daughter and my wife. Daughter 19 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:14.640 very excited to see Sabrina Carpenter. I went and saw 20 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:20.439 the Strokes because, as previously mentioned, I'm old, and yeah, yes, 21 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:21.719 it was a great time. 22 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:23.799 You just threw your daughter into the Sabrina crowd and 23 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.079 we're like, we'll meet back at A at the end. 24 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:29.359 Yeah. Well, so basically, my daughter had a soccer game 25 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:32.560 at eight am in San Antonio, so we had to 26 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:35.239 wake up at six and driver to San Antonio and 27 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.280 then we drove back and then we got to the 28 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:43.040 festival at around two two thirty and then got ended 29 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.079 up getting home around like midnight. So it was an 30 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:47.480 incredibly long day and my daughter was like, this is 31 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.959 too much. So they like actually like stayed back and 32 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:54.519 worked in the mix. I was watching the Strokes and 33 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.000 also watching the texting and football game on my phone. 34 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.439 Yes, fair, fair, like whole is like the first part 35 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:03.879 so beautiful, like getting to share a music festival with 36 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:04.359 your child. 37 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:04.920 Yeah. 38 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:08.520 The setup of after driving her at six am to 39 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:12.039 a soccer game is like a real mixed bag on parenthood. 40 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.360 Yeah you know. And then she was like convinced that 41 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.479 she had lung cancer because of all the people who 42 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.159 were smoking. And I was like, actually, that pain you 43 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.240 feel on your legs is actually all the dust. 44 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.159 Right, yeah, you're like you can smoke a ton, don't 45 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:27.800 even more like honestly, the smoking's not the profitable Yeah. 46 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.240 Yeah, so anyway, nice. 47 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.039 I did not go to a cl this year, but 48 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.039 most I was most would have gone to see Tea Pain. 49 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.759 So I went to the first ten ACL fests and 50 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:41.439 then I retired, So I was like, this is too 51 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:45.439 it's too much, and then I went enough since then 52 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:46.960 to forget how terrible it is. 53 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:50.080 Yeah, every time it's a new Yeah, Yeah, it was. 54 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.759 Actually pretty fun. Japanese Breakfast actually was the best show 55 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:55.680 with that band. Yeah, really great. 56 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:56.039 Yeah. 57 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.240 Did you go to IC I did. I had a 58 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:01.400 very chaotic experience. I did not have tickets, so me 59 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.560 and my friends got their Sunday at four pm and 60 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:10.159 I held up a sign that said need four wristbands. 61 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:12.280 Had they were quo. 62 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:15.960 The scalpers were quoting us like four hundred dollars for 63 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.439 like five hours left of the vessel, So we posted 64 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.400 up at lose and I held up my sign. Eventually 65 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:24.199 did manage to get too, so I went in and 66 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.000 saw two DJs. 67 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:27.520 Interesting. 68 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.639 I will say I've said it before, I'll say it again. Kala, 69 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:31.599 We're very different people. 70 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:38.879 That voice you heard was indeed Kala Glow are politics reporter. Yes, 71 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:39.680 I know. 72 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.120 Kayla's more straightforward, yeah, fancy. 73 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.039 But this week she is here to talk to us 74 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:50.599 about Robert Roberson, who was at least coming into this 75 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.360 week when we scheduled this podcast scheduled to be put 76 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.120 to death by the State of Texas for the two 77 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:00.759 thousand and three conviction for killing his daughter. His case, 78 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.159 as you may know, has become a high profile cause 79 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.080 for death PILNY opponents who believe Texas might be trying 80 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:11.120 to execute an innocent man. But on Thursday, the state's 81 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:14.360 highest criminal court delayed the execution for the second time 82 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:16.160 in less than a year. It was a second time 83 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:18.439 in less than a year that Robson was essentially days 84 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.199 away from being executed and a court stepped in to 85 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:25.319 block it all. Through this whole process, really, this whole 86 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.439 past year, some of Texas's highest profile politicians have been 87 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.399 fighting over the Robson case, in a fight that sort 88 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.759 of breaks down under sort of non ideological lines. It's 89 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:39.439 been sort of an interesting mix of lawmakers on both 90 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:43.199 sides of the issue. But I will speak for myself. 91 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.480 I won't speak for you Eleanor, but at least for myself. 92 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:47.959 As this fight has been going on, it's been a 93 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.319 bit challenging to sort of make sense of the facts. 94 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:56.680 I would say both sides seem very certain and confident 95 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.000 in their position as to whether Robert Roberson did this. So, Kayla, 96 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:03.079 you are here to break it down for us. Thank 97 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:04.680 you for joining us on the podcast. 98 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:05.600 Thanks for having me. 99 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:09.560 Even after an eventful ACL festival. So let's just start 100 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.839 with the basics here. Can you tell us about the 101 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.079 crime that Roverson is accused of. 102 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:19.399 Yes, he is accused and was convicted of murdering his 103 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.000 two year old daughter, Nicki. He was convicted in two 104 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.879 thousand and three. She died in two thousand and two 105 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.120 and at the time when he brought her to the hospital, 106 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.399 the nurses and doctors he had said that he had 107 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:34.920 woken to find her fallen from the bed and she 108 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.920 was unresponsive, but he didn't know what was going on. 109 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:40.480 She had been really sick in the weeks leading up 110 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:42.879 to that, but at the hospital, the doctors and nurses 111 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.879 didn't think that, you know, a fall could have caused this, 112 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.600 and so they saw the signs that at the time 113 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.680 told them to diagnose her with shaken baby syndrome, which 114 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.480 is basically when a child or a baby is shaken 115 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:58.040 so violently that they are really injured or die. So 116 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.959 that is what he was convicted of in two thousand 117 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.399 and three. He has maintained his innocence over the past 118 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.279 twenty plus years on death row. But you know, even 119 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:13.079 at his trial, his defense layer didn't pursue that innocence claim. 120 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.160 Didn't you know, defend him as if believing that he 121 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:20.600 were innocent. And so now you know, medical consensus has evolved. 122 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:24.160 His lawyers have presented evidence they say debunks that Jake 123 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.279 and baby diagnosis and that there was no crime. 124 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.759 Okay, let's let's get into that. Now, why do people 125 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.639 believe Why do the people who believe he's innocent believe 126 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:37.279 he is innocent? 127 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:39.639 There is a lot. 128 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.240 So in the midst of all this, Texas in twenty 129 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:48.040 thirteen passes a pretty groundbreaking law, the Junk Science Law. 130 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.000 Texas was the first in the nation to do. A 131 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.160 bunch of states have followed suit, and that provides for 132 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:57.480 second looks in cases where the conviction rested on science 133 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.560 that has since been discredited and recognizes that while the 134 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.879 law is final, and you know, convictions are final, science 135 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.399 and evidence evolves, like you think of things like my 136 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.319 bite mark hypotheses. You know, people used to think that 137 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.040 you can match someone's teeth up to a bitemark, and 138 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.360 that is just not like held up in science anymore. 139 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:19.600 So we pass this law in twenty thirteen that Roberson 140 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:23.480 supporters think he is the poster child for to receive 141 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.480 relief under and so a few things have happened since 142 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:31.399 then as well. The medical guidance doesn't say to diagnose 143 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:36.160 shake and baby syndrome when the three symptoms that it 144 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.879 previously said to do it appear for it says you 145 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.879 have to consider other factors before concluding abuse. His lawyers 146 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:49.680 argue that things like sicknesses, accidents, those can call cause 147 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.920 these three symptoms as well. It's bleeding behind the retina, 148 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:55.519 some things in the brain. 149 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:58.759 Swelling, yeah, bleeding. 150 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.439 And so the medical consensus around how to diagnose shake 151 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:04.759 and baby syndrome. It's still real, you know, but baby 152 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.199 can still be really injured if they're violently shaken. Today 153 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:11.000 it's not called chicken baby syndrome anymore, but how to 154 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.800 diagnosis that guidance has changed. And his lawyers also point 155 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:20.600 to evidence about Nikki that wasn't considered at trial as closely, 156 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:24.000 that she was, you know, really sick in the days 157 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.560 leading up to it, that she was prescribed medication that's 158 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.959 no longer given to children her age, and they also 159 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.240 point to flaws with how the autopsy was conducted, things 160 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.000 with how Niki was handled at the hospital. So there 161 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.399 are just a bunch of different, evolving, shifting things that 162 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.519 have led people to say that it's not totally clear 163 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.159 that he shook his baby to death and should be 164 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:49.039 executed for it. 165 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:52.159 Right, there's sort of like correct, been wrong, right, but 166 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:53.919 like two separate things here, one of which is like 167 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:56.840 the actual facts of his specific case. And also, as 168 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:00.960 you're saying this like consensus on shaking baby syndrome, that 169 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.759 the junk science law doesn't say, oh, if you were 170 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:07.919 conviction on something that has since been thrown out as 171 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.080 like you can't possibly have done it. It just says 172 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.080 like you should get a second look at your case 173 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.240 and we'll like reassess it on modern medicine, And a 174 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.759 big part of that is like the idea that what 175 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.120 we now know is doctors used to be told, like 176 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.919 pediatricians especially like if you see or like if you 177 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:29.519 see these three symptoms the triad, like assume it's shaken 178 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:33.279 baby syndrome and proceed from there, which sort of his 179 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:34.840 lawyers of art you sort of like taint the whole 180 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:37.440 thing from the jump. We now know that a lot 181 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.000 of things can cause that, and that you know, often 182 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.200 to shake a baby so hard to cause them to die, 183 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.519 you might see other symptoms too, like a broken neck. 184 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.799 Sure, exactly, Yeah, yeah. 185 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.000 It's it's well, actually, I want to go back a 186 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.600 little bit and more into the arguments on both sides here, 187 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.320 but let's kind of continue with our history lesson first. Right, 188 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.039 So he was is scheduled to be executed last year, 189 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:09.240 and two state lawmakers really took up his cause. Jeff Leech, 190 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.840 a Republican from the Colin County area north of Dallas, 191 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:19.039 and Joe Moody, a Democrat from the Alpaso area, tell 192 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:24.399 us a little bit about the dramatic actions they took 193 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.000 to block the execution the first time here last year. 194 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.600 Yeah, well, I just want to note this was not 195 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.039 last year, was not the first time his execution was blocked. 196 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.279 The Court of Criminal Appeals in twenty sixteen actually stayed 197 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.240 his execution using the junk science law, saying that it 198 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:43.120 provided a second look. So his case went back to 199 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.840 trial court that had an evidentiure hearing. But the court 200 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.720 in Anderson County and the prosecutor, you know, maintained that 201 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:52.080 the evidence was still convincing of his guilt, and so 202 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.600 that's what they recommended to the CCA, and the CCA 203 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:57.720 agreed Robertson's lawyer thinks that, you know, they never really 204 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:00.480 meaningfully engaged with all the evidence she brought up, but 205 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.039 that sort of covers the span between twenty sixteen up 206 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:07.600 until twenty twenty three. Is when his execution data set 207 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.200 for twenty three four last year, which is when all 208 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:15.720 these lawmakers get involved and sort of set off this broader, 209 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:20.799 more dramatic saga, political saga. I think it was in 210 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.159 the month before his execution was set to take place, 211 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.080 more than half I think it was something like two 212 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.600 thirds of the Texas House sign onto a letter urging clemency. 213 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:33.919 A few people have since walked back their support, like 214 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:38.639 Tom wulliverson Briscoecine. But these lawmakers, you know, they were 215 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:42.120 suggesting that maybe there was sufficient doubt to put a 216 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:47.799 pause on the whole thing. The House Committee on Criminal Jurisprudence, 217 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.399 which at the time Joe Moody chaired, and I believe 218 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.559 Jeff Leach was the vice chair at the time, they 219 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:55.879 held a couple of hearings before the execution was set 220 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.759 to happen, and then the most dramatic moment happened the 221 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:02.000 day before Roberson was set to be executed. They brought 222 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.000 in a bunch of experts to testify as an all 223 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.559 day hearing. Sometime in the middle of the day, the 224 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.960 decision came from the Board of Pardons and Paroles that 225 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.360 they were going to reject his application for clemency, which 226 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:16.080 meant that only Governor Greg Abbott had the power at 227 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:20.080 the time to issue a thirty day stay, which he 228 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.440 did not do. At the end of this long, all 229 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:25.759 day hearing, the committee, I believe it was a motion 230 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.759 by Representative Brian Harrison, who's a Republican from Midlothian. 231 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.879 He raises this motion to. 232 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:36.519 Subpoena Robert Robertson, instructing him to come testify before the 233 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.240 committee a few days after he was scheduled to die. 234 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.799 So that sets off a whole whirlwinds the next day, 235 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.559 and eventually the Texas Supreme Court steps in saying that 236 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:53.440 this is a separation of powers issue between the executive 237 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:56.279 and legislative branches of government. So the subpoena went out, 238 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.600 or the executive branch's authority to execute him went out, 239 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.399 and that leads to his execution being temporarily stayed, and 240 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.360 eventually the Supreme Court says the lawmakers stepped a little 241 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.480 bit too far, and Robert's execution was put back on 242 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.440 the calendar this year and until last week was set 243 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.480 to happen in two days from Luma recording and. 244 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:21.039 The idea back then there was essentially, you can't execute 245 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:26.000 someone who we're asking to come testify before us Abbot. 246 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.240 Where you can't testify if you've been executed, so right, right, right. 247 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.879 You can't. You can't execute We need him to, yeah, 248 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:36.480 get in, so so don't don't And Abbott and others 249 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:38.639 basically essentially make the case that this is sort of 250 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:42.799 a they are taking away the power of the governor 251 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.480 to kind of make decisions on these, when it's essentially the. 252 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.440 Right anyone could subpoena anyone then and say, you know, 253 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.679 we're never going to execute anybody. 254 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.480 Yeah, okay. So then the decision from the State Criminal 255 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.159 Court of Appeals, we should mention a nine member court 256 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:03.440 all republics, all elected statewide, that focus on basically the 257 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:09.720 top criminal court in the state, issues a decision on Thursday. 258 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.960 Tell us what that decision said. 259 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.200 That decision it so, first of all, it didn't roll 260 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:19.600 on the merits of Robertson's claims that you know, this 261 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:21.480 was junk science, or that Nikki. 262 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:22.360 Died from other causes. 263 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.120 In fact, dismissed a bunch of his appeals claiming judicial 264 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.120 misconduct and other things, but it told the trial court 265 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.759 in Anderson County to look again at Robert's case in 266 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:38.559 light of a decision the criminal court made last year. 267 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.240 So in the midst of all the subpoenas stuff going on, 268 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:47.039 and the Court of Criminal Appeals overturned the conviction of 269 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.759 a man out of Dallas County who was convicted based 270 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.639 on a shaken baby syndrome diagnosis. In that decision, the 271 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.159 Court of Criminal Appeals, you know, acknowledged that these science 272 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.320 and medical consensus around shaking baby syndrome had evolved since 273 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.639 that conviction, and so they overturned that guy's connection. His 274 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:10.919 name was Andrew work Is, Andrew Worke, and Roberts attorneys 275 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.120 had been, you know, citing that case as if you're 276 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:17.159 going to acknowledge changing science in Andrew Worke's case, we 277 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.720 think it should apply here as well. His attorney. Robert's attorney, 278 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:25.720 Gretchen Schwen called the cases materially indistinguishable, and so that 279 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.639 had been a point in her filings to the court 280 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:32.320 since then. And so on Thursday, the CCA told the 281 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.639 trial court to look at Robertson's case again in light 282 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.320 of that particular decision. It didn't say, you know, this 283 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.600 is a junkt science. It didn't say there are a 284 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:42.279 lot of things wrong with us. It just said, since 285 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.559 we've made that decision, we want you to look at 286 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.240 this again in line of that. And so now you know, 287 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:49.919 things will happen on the trial court level in Anderson County, 288 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.080 and whether Robertson gets a new trial at the end 289 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.320 of it is sort of tbd. 290 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.879 But right, So they didn't necessarily order a new trial. 291 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.120 They said review on this sort of precedent we set 292 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.960 in a previous case, exactly. 293 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.799 And at this point, so currently, right, the Attorney General's 294 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.240 office has sort of stepped in to Anderson County to say, 295 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.200 like they're taking the role of Anderson County and defending this. 296 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.240 And as we know, Attorney General Ki Paxton has been very, 297 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.000 very outspoken about the idea that Robertson should be executed 298 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:24.320 for this. Yes, that's right. 299 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.840 So let's talk a little bit about the argument being 300 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:34.840 made by people like Attorney General Kim Paxton that you know, 301 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.600 Mitch Little Estate representative, another person really pushing this case 302 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:42.360 that essentially, you know, people portraying people in the media, 303 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.639 people who are in the legislature who are trying to 304 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.200 defend him, lawyers are trying to portray this as some 305 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:51.600 kind of open and shut case when the evidence actually 306 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:59.240 points to a clear you know, guilt of Roberson, right, like. 307 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:00.360 A murder would walk free. 308 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:05.480 Yeah. Yeah, And I wanted to see if you can 309 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:09.359 help me sort of think through what some of the cases. 310 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.319 And I'll warn here, you know, we might go into 311 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:17.319 the realm of fairly graphic details here so of you know, 312 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:19.880 a very young child, So people don't want to listen 313 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.799 to this. You might want to skip ahead or wait, 314 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:27.200 you know, move on to next week to San Antonio. Yeah, 315 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:31.599 but essentially what we have here is is, you know, 316 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.240 I think the biggest one pointing to well, actually, let 317 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.039 me let me just read from the descent in the 318 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.640 Quarter of Criminal Appeals case, it says the morning after 319 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.559 he being Robertson brought her being Nicki to the emergency room, 320 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:46.799 where she was found to be limp lifeless, blue and bruised. 321 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:49.559 Her pupils were fixed and dilated in the back of 322 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:54.559 her head, exhibited a boggy, mushy bump. Applicants gave inconsistent 323 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.200 accounts for Nicky's condition, centering around a possible fall from 324 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.640 a bed, an explanation the the medical professionals found at 325 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.920 odds with her condition. She died days later after life 326 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.079 support had been withdrawn. You know, the argument that folks 327 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.880 are making is essentially, when you hear that kind of injuries, 328 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:17.279 this is not the case of you know, medicine making 329 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.640 someone sick and eventually dying or any of these types 330 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.480 of things. Is that he clearly abused her or bruises 331 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:30.319 all over her leading to her death. What do Robson's 332 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.559 supporters have to say about that case. 333 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.759 I think they have answers to all those points, and 334 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.519 that's sort of the whole. I think people try to 335 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.759 or trying to make conclusions where that's not what anyone's 336 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:46.920 asking the court at this or was asking the court 337 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:49.119 to do before he was scheduled to execute. I mean, 338 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:56.000 I think they'll say so. Something that advocates for moving 339 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.599 ahead with the execution often point to, I think is 340 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.119 her autopsy report, in addition to some you know, images 341 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.200 of her and those exact descriptions that you mentioned Matthew. 342 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.039 I think his lawyers would say the autopsy itself was 343 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.279 really flawed. The practitioner who conducted it was told before 344 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.559 she conducted the autopsy of Nikki that Robertson had been 345 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.039 arrested on murder charges, which today I think people have 346 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.559 argued would taint the autopsy. I think his lawyers have 347 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.599 also noted that she had a blunt disorder that you know, 348 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:33.119 was caused by her all the other illnesses that she 349 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.400 had that led her to bruise very easily and led 350 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.440 to those marks that people point to that were reported 351 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:46.480 in the autopsy. People also suggest that she had clear 352 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.559 signs of blunt force trauma and that's clearly what she 353 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.119 died from, was somebody hitting her. But in the trial record, 354 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.200 the doctors who attended to her testified that blunt force 355 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.880 trauma is indistinguishable from shaking, and so those are sort 356 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.559 of kind of conflated descriptors in her record that people 357 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.920 I think are seizing on and drawing conclusions from. I mean, 358 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.079 they're just like a bunch of things like that. It's 359 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:20.319 not an easy like if the appeals that his lawyers 360 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.039 have brought are just it's just pages and pages of 361 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:27.839 medical evaluations, very technical diagnoses and conclusions that they draw 362 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.079 from all these different parts of her condition, and so 363 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.200 I don't think it's so clear cut. 364 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:37.039 Yeah. I mean, one of the things I'm going to 365 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.720 quote yourself to you. You, I'm going to quote you 366 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:45.720 to yourself basically, you know, the argument around the medical examiners. 367 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.160 I thought was a really interesting when the medical report, 368 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.240 you know, again describing multiple sites of trauma, bruises all over, 369 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:54.720 you mentioned the blood condition that might have potentially contributed 370 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:57.079 to that. You know, one of the things this team 371 00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.920 points to is now I'm quoting you. The treating for 372 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.400 ysicians who first saw Nikki did not make note of 373 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.640 multiple sites of physical trauma upon her arrival at the hospital, 374 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.720 since she wasn't admitted with those injuries, and especially because 375 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:15.160 she had that disorder, It's clear they came from two days. 376 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.559 It's clear that the bruises came from two days of 377 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.920 being picked up, moved, and manipulated during emergency procedures. This 378 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.920 is your You're in that. I'm quoting you, quoting a 379 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.240 group of lawmakers essentially saying that so essentially this idea 380 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.319 of just like what may have happened after she was 381 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.759 rushed to the hospital he possibly is now being blamed for, right, 382 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.640 And let me ask I mean, I know some of 383 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.839 the judges have said in this most recent time, but 384 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.160 also throughout sort of like they're sort of saying, like, 385 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:44.680 this is not a shaken baby case. 386 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.880 Like the question whether or not shaken baby syndrome is 387 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.720 real or not, or whether they try it all that like, 388 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:54.440 is not that like there is other evidence that he 389 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.799 brought about her death. That and you know, some of 390 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.759 the one of the jurors testified saying like, well, we 391 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.799 convicted on the premise of shaking baby. 392 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.039 I mean, where does that stand now? Like it is 393 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.279 still a shaken baby case? 394 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:07.640 Right? 395 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.519 That is also now in question, and that will be 396 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.680 part of what the trial court has to decide of 397 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:20.680 how central was her shaken baby diagnosis to Roberson's conviction. 398 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.720 I think we saw in some of the dissenting opinions 399 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.519 from the CCA, I think maybe two judges said that 400 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:29.720 they did not think this was a shaking baby case, 401 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.799