1 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,839 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittles, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:25,879 --> 00:00:30,480 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,359 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:37,640 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,280 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:41,439 --> 00:00:44,479 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,359 Our guest today is Michael Gonzalez, Senior Fellow at the 9 00:00:48,359 --> 00:00:54,600 Heritage Foundation, on why the vestigial NPR and PBS must 10 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,200 be defunded. Good morning, Mike, thank you so much for 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,719 joining us on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 12 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: Well, good morning, Matt. It's entirely my pleasure to be here. 13 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,079 Speaker 1: It's great to have you here, especially after this I 14 00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:10,280 think important topic, and I think this hearing last week 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,120 before the House Doge Committee, a subcommittee, the Department of 16 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:18,840 the Government Efficiency Subcommittee hearing, I think it really did 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,599 it do a lot to expose NPR public broadcasting for 18 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:28,840 I think folks like you would say for the fraud 19 00:01:29,079 --> 00:01:33,319 it is. You testified and you had some very engaging testimony. 20 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,640 Before that hearing. You come from a journalist background many 21 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:42,159 years before joining the Heritage Foundation. This is some of 22 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:46,599 your testimony. You said journalists can keep their prejudices in 23 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:52,799 check if they want to. Do you believe that NPR 24 00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:55,920 and PBS have kept their prejudices in check. 25 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, and they haven't for years. Of course, 26 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:04,879 that has gotten much much worse, as with everything else, 27 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,960 since Donald Trump was first elected in twenty sixteen and 28 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,719 when they completely went off the rails. But even before then, 29 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,120 I have been writing for a very long time. I've 30 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:18,879 been writing for at least fifteen years that they should 31 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,919 be defunded. They just have that. There's a code of 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,199 decency here, Matt that if somebody pays your way, you 33 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,800 don't really cast as persons if you don't denigrate them. 34 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:34,159 And they just denigrate conservative viewpoints. They denigreate conservatives. They're 35 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,680 very biased. It's just bias, the partisan they're the partisan 36 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:42,719 organizations on behalf of Democrats and not just Democrats. This 37 00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:45,599 is not party political in the sense that they actually 38 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:51,240 favor the left of the left, anything from Latin X 39 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,159 to racial or sexual. The hysteria that we have been 40 00:02:57,199 --> 00:03:02,000 on definitely since twenty twenty, but even before that they 41 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,800 have been on the side of that. So no, because 42 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,599 the whole American public is coerced to pay for them, 43 00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:13,080 everybody both half of the country, and this it's probably 44 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,120 slightly bigger than half, or not more than slightly. The 45 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:20,719 Conservatives represent more than half the country. For them to 46 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,280 just ignore and insult conservatives violate a code of decency. 47 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,879 They should be defunded, and the CPB, the Corporation for 48 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,520 Public Broadcasting, should be dissolved. 49 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,039 Speaker 1: I think one can argue that PBS and NPR have 50 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:41,759 long been biased in coverage. It got precipitously worse. I 51 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:47,159 would argue during the Trump time period. How long has 52 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,080 the bias been built in, the anti conservative bias built in? 53 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,879 Do you believe that NPR and PBS. 54 00:03:54,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: Well well, LBJ creates Rather, the Congress creates the CPB, 55 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,680 the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in nineteen sixty seven through 56 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,039 the Public Broadcasting Act, and MPR and PBS come on 57 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:13,960 that on the air. In the early seventies, Nixon was president, 58 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,079 there was a lawyer, a young lawyer in the Nixon 59 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,360 White House who wrote a memo right away saying, this 60 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,439 is a big problem for US. We conservatives are going 61 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,639 to have a big problem with these two institutions for 62 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:31,240 decades to come unless we get rid of them. That 63 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:34,439 lawyer's name was antonin Scalia, who went on to do 64 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:41,720 great things. Every Republican president, every conservative, every Republican just 65 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,800 lature since then has ta got rid of MPR, has 66 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,800 tried to reform MPR, has tried to monitor its bias 67 00:04:49,879 --> 00:04:54,279 all to no avail, and PBS as well. 68 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: I guess that's the question right off the bat. Then 69 00:04:57,079 --> 00:05:00,839 how successful would the Trump administration be will Congress be 70 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:06,519 in doing just what you said eliminating this funding source, 71 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,120 because as you noted in your testimony, the game has changed. 72 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:16,959 The landscape broadcasting, the landscape of media has changed dramatically 73 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:24,000 over the time that PBS and NPR have been in existence. 74 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, that is definitely the case, and that 75 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,800 is a big part of the story. The fact that 76 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,079 you know, we've when they first came online, there were 77 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,040 three there were three networks. They were just it, you know, 78 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:41,879 but there was there was I forget one of them, 79 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,759 whether Frank Robinson or John Chancellor or Brinkley or or 80 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,720 cronk guy that actually end there ended their broadcast by saying, 81 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,639 and that's the way it was today April seventeenth, I'm 82 00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:58,279 actual seventy four. Yeah, it was cronquerted. Yeah, okay, so 83 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:59,920 so so they actually that was the way it was. 84 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:05,519 And PBS, you know, increase the number of choices by 85 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:09,800 thirty three percent, by third. Today that's not the case. Today. 86 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,480 We have a proliferation of news sources. We have four 87 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,879 million podcasts, we have endless, an endless stream of educational 88 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:23,759 content and YouTube and online freely accessible. But I tell 89 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,120 you something else that has has changed. And that's why 90 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,240 I'm optimistic of this to be done. And that is 91 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:38,120 weird because because Trump's second administration has been so determined 92 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:42,399 to claw back the ground that the left has captured 93 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,120 over the last few years, and they have been so 94 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,720 diligent about doing this, and because of Elon Musk, and 95 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,160 I think what we're seeing, Matt is is a not 96 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,199 just a vibe shift. Everybody's talking about a cultural vibe shift. 97 00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:59,800 Obviously there is that, but there is this a shift 98 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,279 in paradigms. We're seeing things that we haven't seen before. 99 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:07,879 I didn't see I'm a conservative, I'm not young. I've 100 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:11,439 been around a few decades Reagan, you know, used to 101 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,040 be my load star. Like it is, he was from 102 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,000 any Conservatives. And Reagan defeated the Soviet Union, and he 103 00:07:18,079 --> 00:07:20,839 won the Cold War, but he didn't put a dent 104 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,079 on the bureaucracy, and he wanted to, and he could 105 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,759 not defeat the bureaucracy. I think Donald Trump and Elon 106 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:29,639 Musk can. 107 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,279 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting you say that from a historical 108 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:38,360 perspective and Reagan, You're absolutely right. It was Reagan who 109 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,120 pushed and pushed and pushed to outspend the Soviet Union, 110 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,839 broke the Soviet Union, but he could not break the 111 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:53,240 bureaucracy of the American federal government that says a great deal, 112 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:57,439 doesn't it. And certainly NPR and PBS are part of 113 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,160 that bureaucracy, if you will. 114 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:03,319 Speaker 2: They are reflective of that. When I call them state media, 115 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,879 I don't mean that they are they hand maidens of 116 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:13,079 government today. The government is conservative, it's the executive, the Congress, 117 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,720 and they certainly not handmaidens to that. Where they are, 118 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,800 they're they're handmaidens to and everybody else likes to call 119 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:25,439 the fourth estate, the permanent bureaucracy, the Cello corrider. They 120 00:08:25,519 --> 00:08:31,040 they the the people who actually run the country, who 121 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:39,279 who blow life into into legislature, into legislation. Uh, they 122 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,039 are They reflect their views and their tastes everybody who 123 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,799 lives here. You know, this is a town that voted 124 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:47,679 ninety four percent for Joe Biden. They voted ninety four 125 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,679 percent for Hillary Clinton. Uh. And thevery MPR PBS are 126 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,000 reflective of this view. So that's that's how their state procracy, 127 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,399 that's why they did. There's stid media. So I think 128 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,279 that if they're ever going to be defunded and the 129 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,480 CBB is ever going to be dissolved, it will happen now. 130 00:09:10,879 --> 00:09:13,799 If it doesn't happen now, it will not happen. Raagan, 131 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,879 by the way, was very aware of the power of 132 00:09:15,919 --> 00:09:18,759 the bureaucracy. He had this joke, a very funny joke. 133 00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:20,799 He said he had been to the Department of Agriculture 134 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,039 and he found one of the one of the bureaucrats. 135 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,039 They are crying, and he said, what's the matter with him? 136 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:33,799 And he said, my farmer just died. So it was fantastic. 137 00:09:34,039 --> 00:09:38,960 It was fantastic, how great, how much he understood this, 138 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,799 but he couldn't do anything about it. 139 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: I am talking to you from Des Moines, Iowa, where 140 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:50,159 Ronald Reagan of course got his big radio start, of course, 141 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:54,200 which we're at WHO Radio many many years ago, and 142 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,919 and I do fill in from time to time at 143 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,039 WHO Radio. I think we might have had you on 144 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:04,080 there as well to talk about some of the issues 145 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:04,519 of the day. 146 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: But we do old. 147 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: Clips there of Ronald Reagan talking about his days starting 148 00:10:10,519 --> 00:10:14,519 out and how different, of course, the media landscape was 149 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,120 when Ronald Reagan started. There was no public broadcasting system, 150 00:10:19,279 --> 00:10:22,480 there was no National Public Radio. But I want to 151 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,600 bring your attention again to someone who also testified along 152 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:31,919 with you at the DOGE Subcommittee hearings last week, and 153 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:38,279 that was, of course the CEO, the relatively new CEO 154 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,879 of National Public Radio. I wanted to get your take 155 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:49,480 on this exchange between US Representative Brandon Gill of Texas, 156 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,720 a member of the Doge Subcommittee, Catherine Maherr, the CEO 157 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,559 of NPR, who says, but we've changed. We hear you, 158 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,720 We got your message. We know exactly what you're talking 159 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,159 about about this bias. Representative Brandon Gill says, but what 160 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,600 about your bias, ma'am at the head of NPR. This 161 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:11,519 is a bit of the exchange here. 162 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 3: Do you believe that America is addicted to white supremacy? 163 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 4: I believe that I tweeted that, and as I've said earlier, 164 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,159 I believe much of my thinking has evolved over the 165 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,200 last half decade. 166 00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 3: It has evolved. Why did you tweet that? 167 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 4: I don't recall the exact context, sir, so I wouldn't 168 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:29,840 be able to say. 169 00:11:29,919 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 3: Okay, do you believe that America believes in black plunder 170 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:34,639 and white democracy? 171 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 5: I don't believe that, sir. 172 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: You tweet itad it's reference to a book you were 173 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,799 reading at the time, apparently The Case for Reparations. 174 00:11:44,159 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 5: I don't think I've ever read that book, Sir. 175 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:49,919 Speaker 3: You tweeted about it. You said you took a day 176 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,639 off to fully read The Case for Reparations. You put 177 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,720 that on Twitter in January of twenty twenty. 178 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 5: I apologies. 179 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,799 Speaker 4: I don't recall that I did. No doubt that you're 180 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,200 your tweet there is correct, but I don't recall. 181 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,799 Speaker 3: Okay, do you believe that white people and inherently feel 182 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,120 superior to other races? 183 00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 5: I do not. 184 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: You don't. You tweeted something to that effect. You said, 185 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,120 I grew up feeling superior. Ha, how wide of me. 186 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:15,559 Why did you tweet that? 187 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 4: I think I was probably reflecting on what it was 188 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,159 to be to grow up in an environment where I 189 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:23,200 had lots of advantages. 190 00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: It sounds like you're saying that white people feel superior. 191 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: I don't believe that anybody feels that way, sir. I 192 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,200 was just reflecting on my own experience. 193 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,399 Speaker 3: Do you think the white people should pay reparations? 194 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 5: I have never said that, sir. 195 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 3: Yes you did. You said it in January of twenty twenty. 196 00:12:38,759 --> 00:12:42,720 You tweeted, yes, the North, yes, all of us, yes, America, Yes, 197 00:12:42,759 --> 00:12:46,759 our original collective sin and unpaid debt. Yes, reparations, yes 198 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:47,480 on this day. 199 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 4: I don't believe that was a reference to fiscal reparation, sir. 200 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: What kind of reparations was it a reference to. 201 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,639 Speaker 4: I think it was just a reference to the idea 202 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,159 that we all owe much to the people who came 203 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:58,279 before us. 204 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: That's a bizarre way to frame what you tweeted. Okay, 205 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:06,720 how many How much reparations have you personally paid? 206 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:07,639 Speaker 5: Sir? 207 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,879 Speaker 4: I don't believe that I've ever paid reparations. 208 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: Okay, just for everybody else. 209 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 5: I'm not asking anyone who maybe. 210 00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: What you're suggesting, do you believe that looting is morally wrong? 211 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 4: I believe that looting is illegal, and I refer to 212 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,120 it as counterproductive. I think it should be prosecuted. 213 00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 3: You believe it's morally wrong though, of course, of course, 214 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,080 then why did you refer to it as counterproductive? Very different, 215 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,000 very different way to describe it. 216 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,879 Speaker 4: It is both morally wrong and counterproductive as well as 217 00:13:34,919 --> 00:13:35,559 being tweeted. 218 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 3: It's hard to be mad about protests. In reference to 219 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,200 the BLM protests not prioritizing the private property of a 220 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:46,879 system of oppression, you didn't condemn the looting. You said 221 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:51,919 that it was counter productive. NPR also promoted a book 222 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,080 called In Defensive Looting. Do you think that that's an 223 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,799 appropriate use of taxpayer dollars. 224 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 4: I'm unfamiliar with that book, sir, and I don't believe 225 00:13:59,240 --> 00:13:59,679 that was at. 226 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 3: That you read that book. 227 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,639 Speaker 5: But I don't believe that I did read that. 228 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: Okay, it goes on and on like it's more and 229 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:10,840 more of that. You heard the the audio clip and 230 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,360 you were in the hearing room. What did you think 231 00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:21,360 of ms Mar's testimony and what leadership or how leadership 232 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:27,480 informs the administration the running of National Public Radio. Well, 233 00:14:27,919 --> 00:14:28,840 I was. 234 00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: There at the hearing and heard all that, but I remember, 235 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:34,960 I remember very well. I thought that Brandon gil conducted 236 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,480 himself in Stellar. He's a he's a freshman from Texas, 237 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,399 and he really made his mark. You know, this was 238 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,159 his his baptism of fire, and he came through very 239 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:48,919 very well. He's going to be great in the house. 240 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,000 I think, if this hearing is anything to go by, 241 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,600 I thought that Catherine Maher just the symbol, you know. She. 242 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:04,240 I hate to say that somebody lied, because that that 243 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,080 assumes godlike powers. I can look inside, you know, inside 244 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,240 her and see see whether she she intended to tell 245 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:17,200 an untruth. Maybe she does believe that NPR is unbiased. 246 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,840 I don't know how she could. I don't know how 247 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,879 she could believe that. By the way, I've spoken to 248 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,879 many MPR reporters over the years, uh and and they 249 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,279 acknowledge that there's a bias. They say it online. They 250 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,639 at least they acknowledge that most of the in the 251 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:43,240 MPR is Washington bureaus case, all of the of the 252 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,519 of the workforce is registered Democrat and are leftists. What 253 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:51,200 they say is this does not impact I don't know 254 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,320 how they can say this. Ira Glass said this one 255 00:15:53,399 --> 00:15:57,120 day of this American life. He said, look, yeah we are, 256 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,960 we're all leftists. But that does not impact the product. 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,320 And that's impossible. That is impossible if you have, as 258 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,360 is the case for the Washington Bureau, eighty seven registered Democrats, 259 00:16:09,639 --> 00:16:14,039 a not a single registered Republican. That's going to impact 260 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:18,320 the product, and it does so a bigger belief that 261 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:24,879 Katherine Maher, the CEO of NPR could clean this. Paula Kerger, 262 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,279 the CEO of PBS, was much more. She's been doing 263 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:33,039 this for nineteen years. But PBS is also very biased. 264 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:36,639 We should not let the fact that Paula Krger knows 265 00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:41,480 what she's doing and Katherine Marr doesn't confuse us. 266 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,879 Speaker 6: Is Bernie really grassroots or another presidential push? The watch 267 00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:51,759 Dotal on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski Every day 268 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,840 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 269 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,559 and how it affects your wallet. Bernie and AOC have 270 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:02,000 gone on a full propaganda gamut blitz for their fundraising rallies, 271 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:04,119 but some of these attendees. 272 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 3: Were actually paid to be there. 273 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 6: Who's really getting paid, whether it's happening in DC or 274 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,920 down on Wall Street. It's affecting you financially. 275 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:10,519 Speaker 3: Be informed. 276 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 6: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 277 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:15,680 Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 278 00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: Well, I think one only need to look at the 279 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,160 testimony if you will, of you're a Burliner who had 280 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,480 been with NPR as a long time senior editor for many, 281 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:34,160 many years, and what he had to say about the 282 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,480 inner circle, the bubble that is National Public Radio and 283 00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:44,759 look what happened to him for bringing that acknowledgment to 284 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,960 the public. If that is what NPR truly is, then 285 00:17:50,079 --> 00:17:54,680 the question must be asked, is that worth taxpayer funding? 286 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: Well, I mean we saw this, say this is part 287 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:03,559 of a pattern. Basically, Yes, a uribur leinner who is 288 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,240 one of MPR's own right. He is a veteran of 289 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:11,599 twenty five years at the radio network. He was a whistleblower. 290 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,079 He came out with his article as essay less than 291 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,680 a year ago. Just took a week after Katherin Marr 292 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:21,720 was appointed editor sorry CEO, and he wrote this piece 293 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,640 for The Free Press calling out MPR, pointing out all 294 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,039 the instances of bias, but pointing out how the audience 295 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,640 was completely skewed. Only eleven percent republic of conservatives listened 296 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,200 to MPR, now about seventy percent of the liberal and 297 00:18:39,279 --> 00:18:44,160 he was with MPR. Rather than pause and reflect, MPR 298 00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:48,519 just circled the wagons in launching to gay character assassination 299 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,960 of uribur Leinner. But let's not forget that this is 300 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,519 part of a pattern. In twenty ten, One Williams, another 301 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,039 veteran of long standing eperald journalist, alongside the MPR because 302 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:08,039 he because he he dared flo out the network's progressive orthodoxy. 303 00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:12,240 As I said in my in my testimony, they they 304 00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:16,480 called him a psycho. They fired him. So so this 305 00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:19,559 is what this is what MPR does. It's it's you know, 306 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,279 you know, you know the way he described him, uh, 307 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:29,119 Juan Williams, if I forget where I put it, he 308 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,839 he said that they're a close minded clique who you know, 309 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,119 do not do not take well to people with different views, 310 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:41,240 and that's who they are. They become an insulated, you know, 311 00:19:41,319 --> 00:19:44,000 almost almost clerical group. 312 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting. And the breathless testimony of MS 313 00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:55,480 Mahr and her colleagues talking about again we we we 314 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,160 heard you, we we understand, Yes, we may have have 315 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,119 been that way in the past. But we're doing things 316 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,920 to make changes, fundamental changes at NPR. We're meeting with 317 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,880 our local editors in our hundreds of stations, you know, 318 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,240 to talk about what's really happening on the ground, really, 319 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:18,480 you know, getting a thought, getting a full perspective on 320 00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:24,759 the ideas happening. Do you do you believe that they 321 00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:31,440 are truly listening to the American people, to the polling, 322 00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:33,640 to Congress, to the administration. 323 00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:39,839 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not. And Uri Berliner on Wednesday, the twenty 324 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,839 sixth of March, the day of the day of the hearing, 325 00:20:44,319 --> 00:20:47,240 he came out with a second essay in which he 326 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:51,599 made very clear that this effort by by Kathin Marr 327 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,160 to to as she said, to to bring to study 328 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,519 to see where the bias is and do something about it, 329 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,880 that this has failed completely and that what he said, 330 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:11,440 Uri Berliner was that look, MPR should refuse the government money. 331 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 5: And she just. 332 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 2: Embraced being who they are. They should embrace being liberal, 333 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,519 They should embrace they you know, their their progressivism, and 334 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,400 they they they What they cannot do is they cannot 335 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,039 have it both ways. They cannot be both liberal and public. 336 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,799 So here's what Ury Berlin has said in his essay 337 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,960 last week, MPR said the last many it was creating 338 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,960 a new vetting process called the Backstop, a team of 339 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,279 senior editors that would worked twenty four to seven to 340 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:46,119 quote ensure that all coverage receives financial final editorial review unquote. 341 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,559 And here's what he says, very succinctly, but it doesn't 342 00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:53,640 seem to be working. Indeed, it's not working. 343 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: Very good point, and from a guy who has lived it, 344 00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:01,680 who has been inside that bubble for a long time, until, 345 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:07,599 of course, he was effectively forced out. Our conversation today 346 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:13,119 about NPR PBS, whether it should continue to be defunded, 347 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:19,880 our guest today says absolutely not. It is time for 348 00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:26,920 the defunding of these publicly subsidized media institutions. Our guest 349 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,319 today is Michael Gonzalez, senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation. 350 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:40,440 You quoted in your testimony. I think a great perspective 351 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:44,559 from George Will a while back, and the way that 352 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:54,440 Will describes NPR NPBS as vestigial. For those not acquainted 353 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,359 with the term vestigial, it's like in appendix, if you will, 354 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,359 something that used to perhaps perform a function, but doesn't 355 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:10,240 really anymore. You wouldn't have referenced that quote unless you 356 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,319 absolutely believe that that was the case, that NPR and 357 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,279 PBS are indeed a vestigial. 358 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, no it. 359 00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 2: George Will has always been very good about MPR and PBS. 360 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,759 Here's what he wrote two weeks ago. He says MPR 361 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,200 was quote like the human appendix, vestigial, purposeless, insusceptible to 362 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:32,039 unhealthy episode. 363 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: And that's not the first time I believe he's brought 364 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,759 that out. He's been saying this for a long time, 365 00:23:36,839 --> 00:23:38,319 hasn't he. 366 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, And you know, I hope George 367 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,599 Will never writes a nasty column about me because he 368 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,319 can definitely take a scalpel to you. 369 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you need you need a dictionary of thesaurus 370 00:23:51,079 --> 00:23:52,160 to break it down. 371 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:52,559 Speaker 3: Maybe. 372 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: But nonetheless he's sharp, There's no doubt about it. 373 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, this is I was looking at the people 374 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:05,559 who showed up. They showed up with an army of lawyers, 375 00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:08,880 but they shut up with you know, I also had guests. 376 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,160 I had like four guests, but they put it in 377 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,119 like over ten, like fifteen people from MPR, And I 378 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,960 was looking at them. They were sitting there in the 379 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,000 hearing room, and I just said to myself, I should 380 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,440 have said this in the hearing itself. I should have. 381 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:26,759 I was saying to myself, all these people are liberal, 382 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,960 and they know they're liberal, and they know that each 383 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,279 other is liberal. How do they justify this to themselves? 384 00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:39,039 I mean, like I couldn't justify this to myself, Matt, 385 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,559 How do they justify this to themselves that I should 386 00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:46,319 take money from my family and you know, and your 387 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,839 listeners should take money from your families and send it 388 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,720 to them when they are all liberal and they don't. 389 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,079 They may and they lie when they say they're not biased. 390 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,599 I don't know if you can explain to me that process, 391 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:06,839 because I don't understand it. 392 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: Again, I mean, it's one thing to be liberal. We 393 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,000 see all kinds of news outlets in this country, you know, 394 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,079 filled with liberals, and we're going to get to that 395 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,880 in just a moment. Is how do you get around 396 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,079 that with the institutions of higher education, the JA schools. 397 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,039 You know, when you and I were going through this 398 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:31,599 education process of becoming journalists many moons ago, you know, 399 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,920 perhaps it was different in journalism schools at that time, 400 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,720 but you know, the leftist in doctrination is there. We'll 401 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,599 get to that in just a moment. But you know, it's, 402 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,279 as you said, it's one thing to come from a 403 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:49,599 liberal perspective in your life. It's another thing entirely to 404 00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:55,480 put everything through a liberal lens when you report on it. 405 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:02,799 And how how does PBS, how how do NPR changed that? 406 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:03,839 For real? 407 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: Is it? 408 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Is it even possible? 409 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 2: No, As I said at the end of my testimony, 410 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:13,599 do not try to mend this. This You need to 411 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,599 end this now. The business has always been very liberal. 412 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,920 I remember being an intern, an intern in the seventies, 413 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,200 in the eighties in an editor at UPI the day 414 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,200 of the night of the elections, the elections when when 415 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,359 the Democrats took the House just turned to me and said, 416 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,599 I know you're a conservative. We kiked here. You know what, 417 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,160 today it's like some middle aged guy. You know, I 418 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,799 was like a guy, a young guy in my early twenties. 419 00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:45,880 He was he was being really mean to me. I 420 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,000 was just an intern. And I remember I also interned 421 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,279 for Helen Thomas. And Helen Thomas, you remember her legendary. 422 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,079 She was actually great to me, but she would say, look. 423 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: The grand dam of the White House Press corps. 424 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: Of course absolutely. And she said to me, I know 425 00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:03,559 you're a conservative, but you're a good kid. You're a 426 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:06,759 good kid. Now go to the Oval Office and and 427 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:09,559 and do you know, get get this meeting with Ronald 428 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,279 Reagan and Halmond Cole. But the next day it was 429 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,079 just can you get me a Ruben sandwich? You never 430 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,440 knew with her, but I have seen, you know, other 431 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:21,000 editors have not been as nice to me as Allen 432 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:26,279 Thomas was. They had. You know, I've faced pressure, but 433 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:29,039 I've never changed. I never saw recent to change my 434 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,720 stripes just because I was in a liberal you know environment. 435 00:27:35,319 --> 00:27:38,160 But as you said, who cares? I don't. I don't 436 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,480 mind that The New York Times exists. I don't mind 437 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:44,680 that MSNBC exists. Unlike Catherine Marr, I don't want to 438 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,119 extinguish views with which I don't agree. I just don't 439 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,079 think that conservatives should be paid. It's it's an incredible unfairness. 440 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,559 It's unfair to the competitors. It's unfair to us conservatives. 441 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,759 It is a we're broken, we're broke, and this is 442 00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:04,440 a what it is is a very and I said 443 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,279 this in my testimony. It's a very unhealthy and un 444 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:14,400 democratic relationship. The Democratic Party unanimously supports giving money to 445 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,359 mprm PBS, and then MPR on PBS turn around and 446 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,000 tip the scales heavily in the favor of the Democratic Party. 447 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,599 This is this is not acceptable. 448 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:26,559 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this. 449 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: The UPI editor you were talking about that turned in 450 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,880 and said, hey, we kicked your butts with the House 451 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,400 House Democrat win Is. Do you know have you have 452 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:42,039 you checked back with him? Is he setting teslas on 453 00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:43,079 fire these days? 454 00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 4: Well? 455 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:45,079 Speaker 2: What's he? 456 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: What's he doing now? I can only imagine what this 457 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,119 guy is thinking now and doing now years later. 458 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: I you know, Matt, this was forty years ago. The 459 00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:00,400 man was already past middle aged. Okay, I just don't 460 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,519 think he's around anymore. 461 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,839 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've survived this this time period. 462 00:29:05,839 --> 00:29:09,400 But you raise a very good point. You know, you 463 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,079 said you don't mind that the New York Times exists 464 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:18,960 obviously extremely liberal, CNN and the Associated Press. Take a 465 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,880 look at the media landscape, it's all left leaning. There 466 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,799 is a difference, however, between the New York Times, the 467 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,519 Washington Post, CNN, the AP, all of these. Well, let 468 00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:35,920 me back that. I'll say in general, they're not taxpayer funded, 469 00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:39,640 although thanks to Doge we found out how much money 470 00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:45,720 has been given to these organizations artificially. I think there's 471 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,039 no argument there to prop them up with millions upon 472 00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:53,559 millions of dollars contributions to subscriptions and what have you. 473 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,759 But that said, they are in the main not subsidized 474 00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:04,359 by the American taxpayer. And isn't that ultimately the main 475 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,359 argument that conservative Americans are really making. Hey, you can 476 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,279 do all of this stuff that you want, I don't 477 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:11,160 want to pay for it. 478 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the killer argument. I mean, 479 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:16,400 the fact that we're broke, the fact that this is 480 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,200 an unhealthy relationship with Democrats, the fact that this is 481 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,160 unfair to competitors. Those are all good arguments in and 482 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,920 of themselves. But the up and down argument is the 483 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,000 fact that this is as Jefferson said. I quoted Jefferson 484 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,720 in my Jefferson never heard of any public broadcast, but 485 00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:38,319 he said that to ask a man to pay for 486 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,680 views with which he disagreed was sinful and in tyranny. 487 00:30:43,279 --> 00:30:46,039 And that's what it is. You know, we cannot this 488 00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:48,799 cannot go on. This should be ended. I mean, can't 489 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,000 anybody else see this how injustice. 490 00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: Is Yeah, it's interesting to me to you know, note 491 00:30:55,799 --> 00:31:00,240 that Jefferson said that long before folks could imagine, uh, 492 00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:05,440 the sound of the human voice recorded and broadcast or 493 00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:09,920 images coming out of television screens. You know, but it 494 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,279 is absolutely true. And think of the time in which 495 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,680 Jefferson existed, the battles between the federalist and the anti federalist, 496 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:20,480 and the sort of publications they had. Just as a 497 00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:23,680 quick aside, do you think maybe it's time America goes 498 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:32,000 back to just clearly labeled partisan publications conservative, liberal, Democrat, Republican. 499 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: I think in a way we're doing that. You know, 500 00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:37,960 it was, that's the way it was until about one 501 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,519 hundred years ago. The twenties was the the the age 502 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:47,920 of consumerism, the rise of consumerism, and in newspapers, you know, 503 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,440 happened to upon this great business model in which they 504 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,799 sold detergent in cars, and and and and and and 505 00:31:55,079 --> 00:32:00,039 chewing gum to to the buyers of the newspaper and 506 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,400 uh through advertisement. And they did realize that they if 507 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,559 they were if they decided with only one side, with 508 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,880 only one party, they were losing fifty percent of the public. 509 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,440 So they decided to be by partisan, they decided to 510 00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:19,839 be objective, and so the penny press, the party press 511 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,960 ended and this great new business model was created in 512 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,759 the nineteen twenties or thereabouts with the rise in the 513 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:32,079 age of consumerism that has now been shattered by the Internet, 514 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:37,319 and in many ways we're in search of new business models, 515 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:41,480 and maybe it will be that we will have multiple 516 00:32:41,559 --> 00:32:45,279 working business models, not just one. But this idea that 517 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:49,640 we get that we buy pulp from Canada and we 518 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,759 spray with ink and we get some kid to throw 519 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:56,079 it under our cars in the morning, and that we 520 00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,680 can call that newspaper by partisan and objective. I think 521 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:00,880 that'sty much gone. 522 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: Now, just like the paper itself. We're seeing all of 523 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,400 these particularly smaller market newspapers go to completely online, and 524 00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:12,839 that's just the way of things. So the technology has changed, 525 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:18,799 the marketplace has changed, but NPR and PBS remain the same. 526 00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:24,640 As Berliner said, you know, why don't they just you know, 527 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,000 get away from the trough and fund this thing by 528 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,319 leftist donors. That's their marketplace, and we wouldn't be having 529 00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:37,160 this argument. They wouldn't have to be coming begging before Congress. 530 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,319 Let me ask you this. If that happens, do you 531 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,039 think PBS and NPR survive in the current landscape of 532 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,519 media and journalism? 533 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: And the short answer is yes. Well, let me just 534 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,880 make clear because I think a lot about this is 535 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,480 very unclear that mp on PBS are but two. This 536 00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:03,640 mini is American documentary, American public media, American public television, 537 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:09,400 the Association of Independence in Radio Black Public Media. So 538 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,679 so so there's a whole bunch of other outlets. It's 539 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:16,000 not just MPR PBS. And then the CPB collects his 540 00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:19,159 money and spreads it around, and we can get into 541 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,199 that because there's a lot of hooey about that too. 542 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,119 But yes, to go back to your question, I absolutely 543 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:29,119 think that MPR and PBS and some of these others 544 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,960 that have just reeled off will do very well with 545 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,960 the membership model. The membership model works. The Heritage Foundation 546 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:40,960 thrives in the membership model, so so they don't need 547 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,119 they themselves say we take very little money. It represents 548 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,119 very small percentage of our of our revenues. Well, if 549 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:54,920 that is the case, then where's the problem? And look people, 550 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,760 The argument then comes out like, well, Mike, you know 551 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000 what you what will happen is that you're throwing NPR, 552 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:05,840 PBS and all these other uh state estate outlets into 553 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,199 the open arms of Mackenzie Scott and George Soros and 554 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,480 the Tights Foundation and Melinda Gates and all these leftist donors. 555 00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,039 And in my my response to that is, so what right? 556 00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:20,159 I don't care? I don't I really don't care. 557 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,119 Speaker 1: I think, you know, MPR, what would be different about 558 00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:28,639 NPR and PBS and the rest is any You're absolutely right. 559 00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:31,840 I mean, there are all kinds of different publicly funded 560 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,440 media outlets like this. What would be different? What would 561 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,400 be so different from the coverage you're getting today? 562 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: How much further can the left can they go? You know, 563 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,039 it's like there's no room. But even if they weren't 564 00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:49,239 further left, that's I don't care. I don't care that 565 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,000 the nation exists. I don't care that Mother Jones exists. 566 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,920 I sometimes read them. I want to get different perspectives, 567 00:35:57,559 --> 00:35:59,920 you know, I I don't want to just listen to 568 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:03,519 conservative outlet. But the point here is not that. The 569 00:36:03,559 --> 00:36:06,119 point here is with the public subsidy. It should be 570 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:06,800 very clear. 571 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it should be very clear, but it's not here. 572 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 3: We have it. 573 00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: They say they don't they only get a small portion 574 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,519 of their overall funding. And that's the question too. And 575 00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:23,639 it's a better question, of course for Catherine mar it's 576 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:27,920 a question for the folks at PBS and elsewhere if 577 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,519 they loathe the people in power right now so much, 578 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,280 if they you can tell they just have absolute indignation 579 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,519 for having to come to Congress hat in hand all 580 00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:45,639 the time. But they know that the you know, the 581 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,880 Democrats are going to support them always, and maybe they'll 582 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,000 poll a few Republicans over so called Republicans, so called conservatives, 583 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,639 and they're going to get their funding. Why do they 584 00:36:56,639 --> 00:36:58,679 continue to do this? Why do they continue to go 585 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,039 through this masquerade. 586 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: Because they like the im premature that public conference upon them. 587 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,400 Because the money is real. There is shell game going 588 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:15,000 on here in which the CPB sends about twenty nine 589 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:19,800 percent of the money it receives, but the Congress appropriates it, 590 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,800 sends that to the public broadcasters, and then a sense 591 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,280 about seventy one percent of it to the fifteen hundred 592 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,199 public radio stations around the country. But here's the twist. 593 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,079 These fifteen hundred radio and television stations turn around and 594 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:38,960 pay MPR and PBS and American Public media, et cetera, 595 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,639 a fee, a fee for their programming, and they make 596 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:46,159 a lot of money. This see now MPR, PBS, Catholine 597 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:48,199 Marmade this coct oh no, no, no, no, no no. 598 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:57,519 This fee is is measured as a percentage of the 599 00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:03,480 money they raise from from private donors. But as Jim 600 00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:07,159 Jordan pointing out to her, mis mar money is fungible. 601 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,400 You know, if I give you a dollar and my 602 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,480 wife gives you a dollar, Matt and you say, well, 603 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:16,800 I'm only going to use the dollar that your wife 604 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,559 gave me to buy ice cream. The money, the dollar 605 00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:24,760 that you gave me, I'm saving that. Who cares dollars 606 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,599 of dollars of dollars a dollar? The fact that I 607 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:29,519 gave you a dollar allows you to spend that other 608 00:38:29,639 --> 00:38:32,719 dollar on ice cream. So money is fungible. And she 609 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,159 accepted to Jim Jordan say yes, you're right. Money and 610 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,239 money is fungible. 611 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:40,599 Speaker 1: Dollars upon dollars upon dollars add up, of course, and 612 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:44,320 so as you mentioned before, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting 613 00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:48,360 is the central figure of all this, the distributor of 614 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,519 this money. How much money, because there's always a debate 615 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,199 on this, how much money annually a are we looking 616 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,840 at going to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. That event 617 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,360 is distributed to MPR, PBS and all the others. 618 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,079 Speaker 2: So the CPB, by the way, I just cannot let 619 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:10,880 this moment go by, needs to be dissolved. That's the 620 00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:14,920 silver bullet. The funding MPR PBS not sufficient. The CPB 621 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:18,760 needs must be dissolved or shrunk to a size that 622 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,320 is so infinitesimal that that it doesn't matter. It's five 623 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,679 hundred and thirty five million dollars. That's where the the 624 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:32,559 the the the bill that was just passed a week ago. 625 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,760 The the obunment is what I'm talking about. 626 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: The CRR. 627 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:40,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, the cr that passed with the gay MPR PBS, 628 00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:44,559 five hundred and thirty five million dollars appropriated it for them. 629 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,800 Now that can be taken back through resision, the process 630 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,719 a congressional process called a parliamentary process called recision. But 631 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,760 that has already been appropriated for the for fiscal year 632 00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:57,119 twenty twenty seven. Don't forget that they're in a two 633 00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:02,360 year advanced budget. They had asked were close to six 634 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,000 hundred million, but they got five hundred and thirty five 635 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,320 million because they got what they got last year. That's 636 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,880 what the continuing Resolution the CR paid for. But they 637 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,760 get monies from other They get moneys from the Department 638 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,519 of Education, they get money from other parts of the 639 00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:22,800 federal government, and then apts their lobbyists. The CEO of 640 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,360 APTS American Public Television Stations, Kate Riley, revealed earlier this 641 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,800 month when she was meeting with other lobbyists that thirty 642 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,679 eight states had given I think it was two hundred 643 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:40,239 and fifty million dollars to public television stations, so that 644 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,760 that brings it closer to to over That makes it 645 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,400 over three quarters of a billion dollars. And if you 646 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:50,559 add up the moneies that go from the other departments 647 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,480 and the moneies that radio stations have raised from the state, 648 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,480 that's probably very close to, if not passing a billion 649 00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:59,800 dollars in taxpayer money. 650 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: Directim if I'm wrong, Mike, and you've been working on 651 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,480 this for a long time in your journalism career and 652 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:08,719 a heritage, there is a thirty six trillion dollar national debt. 653 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, so. 654 00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: It is eventually time, and this is the time that 655 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,280 the American people, I think in November decided this was 656 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,440 absolutely the time we're going to have to start addressing 657 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:32,000 this national debt, and there are you know, the supporters 658 00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:36,320 of NPR and PBS will tell you this is just 659 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,599 a drop in the bucket, and that is true in 660 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,920 the massive amounts of debt that we are experiencing, But 661 00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:48,039 there are places to start. Your argument is this is 662 00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:52,239 definitely a place to start in going after that massive debt. 663 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:59,199 Speaker 2: Well, Representive Rocanna of California, who can be a thoughtful guy. 664 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,519 By the way, he had an exchange with me. He 665 00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:03,800 didn't like my testimony. He said, he found my testimony 666 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,239 angry too. My testimony was the only one raised at 667 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,880 all out of the four people who testified, and one 668 00:42:12,039 --> 00:42:14,239 was Rocanna, who, as I said, is a thoughtful guy, 669 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,679 and the other one was Representative Jasmine Crockett, who's not thoughtful. 670 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,920 And Rocanna said, he asked me, what percentage of the 671 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:28,440 overall deficit annual deficit is the money that goes to 672 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,239 the CPP, and I hadn't calculated that, he goes. How 673 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,800 come we haven't calculated that, as I explained to him, 674 00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:35,360 because the measure that I used was a much more 675 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,920 useful measure, which was as a percentage of the discretionary 676 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,159 cuts in the budget offered by in the twenty eighteen 677 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,519 budget offered by the last Republican House, and that was 678 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,400 ten percent of the discretionary cuts, So that is significant. 679 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,320 Whereas he was trying to make it sound like as 680 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,400 a percentage of the overall the budget deficit. But a 681 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,840 lot of that a roll budget deficit is stuff that 682 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,320 we cannot touch because it's like you know, the defense, 683 00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:14,519 social Security, Medicaid, Medicare. But the things that we can cut, 684 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,119 actually we're going to have to start cutting a lot. 685 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,159 But the things that we katko, which is discretionary spending, 686 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,239 it was ten percent of the cuts. That is significant. 687 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: Final argument for PBS always is but what about big Bird? 688 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:33,639 What about big Bird? 689 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,079 Speaker 2: Mike right, And that is a complete lie with all 690 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:43,440 the Democrats who were very silly had posters of Elmo 691 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,400 and the Cookie Monster and big Bird. And I actually 692 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:53,119 went to polar Kruger's testimony and I looked for references 693 00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:59,199 to Sesame Street and I found exactly none. None. There 694 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:02,559 were no references to Sesame Street where she had I 695 00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:05,719 think it was, let me look it up. I think 696 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,639 she had twenty or fifty references to the word local 697 00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:17,800 because they're no longer talking about big Bird because they 698 00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:23,039 they gave that away. They signed a licensing deal with 699 00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:32,360 HBO in twenty fifteen. And so, oh, you want to 700 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,119 know how many times Paula Kirger mentioned the word I 701 00:44:35,159 --> 00:44:37,800 just looked it up, mentioned the word local in her 702 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:44,559 testimony sixty five times. Now they're saying that why am 703 00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:46,880 I bringing this up your audience, may I may wonder 704 00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:49,840 because rather than big bird, and it's for the children, 705 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719 all the other cynical arguments they used to make. Now 706 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,880 they're saying that with that MPRPB has, there's no local coverage. 707 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,880 That local coverage. Here's a sylogion. Some local coverage depends 708 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:07,920 on public media. Uh, without local coverage is no democracy. Ergo, 709 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,280 if you get rid of public media, you kill democracy. 710 00:45:12,039 --> 00:45:14,920 Except you're a journalists. I'm a journalist. I don't know 711 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,840 if you consider yourself a journalist. I used to be 712 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:17,480 a journalist. 713 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 7: It should really bother us to to to say that 714 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,960 that that only the government can the government can create 715 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,760 a media structure that will keep it in keep its 716 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:32,239 power in. 717 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 2: Check, that will act as a watchdog against it, against government. 718 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,119 That is nonsensical, That will not happen, And we know 719 00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:43,880 from MPR p BS that they do not keep the 720 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,079 power of the federal bureaucracy and the and and and 721 00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:50,039 and of the side that believes in big government in check. 722 00:45:50,639 --> 00:45:54,400 They are they are cheerful supporters and tip the scales 723 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,880 on their on on in their favor. So we have 724 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,920 that example, we know that that won't happen, and. 725 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: That is really the core of this argument, because it's 726 00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:09,639 bigger than Big Bird, it's bigger than Sesame Street, it's 727 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:14,559 bigger than NPR and PBS and all the others funded 728 00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:19,800 by the American taxpayers through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. 729 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,719 It is about this smug idea from the left that 730 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,239 only the government can solve the problems that face us. 731 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,840 And there's just a different approach to that. There's a 732 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,960 different thinking to that, and NPR and PBS don't agree 733 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,079 with that approach so much so that they won't cover 734 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,199 that approach. And the absolute right question to ask is 735 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,920 if they won't cover it, why should we be funding it. 736 00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:56,000 Thanks to my guest today, Mike Gonzalez, Senior Fellow at 737 00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:59,000 the Heritage Foundation, you've been listening to another edition of 738 00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,800 the Federalist Radio Aple. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent 739 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,199 at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, 740 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:26,400 stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.