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<v Speaker 1>And now for this episode, we're going to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>a pastor who compared Trump to Hitler and is pushed

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<v Speaker 1>out of his own church. Eli has the story thunder Katt.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Ben Boswell was asked to resign from his position

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<v Speaker 2>as the reverend at Myers Park Baptist in Charlotte, North Carolina,

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<v Speaker 2>as the church's attendance numbers have fallen and not recovered

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<v Speaker 2>since twenty sixteen when Boswell arrived. Several current and former

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<v Speaker 2>attendees were quoted in the article as being less than

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<v Speaker 2>pleased with Boswell's message of love, acceptance, inclusivity, and community.

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<v Speaker 2>Hold on a minute, welcome back to that Boswell had

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<v Speaker 2>a habit of addressing politics and racial justice in his sermons,

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<v Speaker 2>which resonated with with at least one person of color

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<v Speaker 2>in the congregation, to the point that Boswell's dismissal felt

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<v Speaker 2>like a betrayal to the gentleman. Boswell's intent, aside, his

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<v Speaker 2>white congregants just didn't like the idea of acknowledging being

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<v Speaker 2>white and what that means, so they chose not to.

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<v Speaker 2>The church leaders do insist that bossie Well's removal is

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<v Speaker 2>based on the lack of attendance, not his socio political views,

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<v Speaker 2>and that the church does remain committed to the same

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<v Speaker 2>values of inclusivity and acceptance that Boswell preached about. The

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<v Speaker 2>story is from a male online by Bethan Sexton on

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<v Speaker 2>February fourth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Sol, you know, I'm going to go ahead and just

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<v Speaker 1>stick with you for a moment. What does Reverend Boswell's

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<v Speaker 1>ousting suggest about the balance between political activism and religious

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<v Speaker 1>leadership in modern churches?

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<v Speaker 2>So this particular church does have, like in their mission statement,

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<v Speaker 2>it does suggest that like it is you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>is an opening, a welcoming church. It's identified in the

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<v Speaker 2>article as a liberal church. I wanted to clarify because

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<v Speaker 2>the article headline is misleading. It wasn't that Boswell was

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<v Speaker 2>pushed out for comparing Trump to Hitler for having they're saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like I mentioned that it's not big because

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<v Speaker 2>he's preaching this that they're getting rid of him. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's because he's preaching this that people aren't attending, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's because people aren't attending that they are asking him

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<v Speaker 2>to resign. So it is a sort of clash between

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<v Speaker 2>they're saying they want to preach this message of inclusivity

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<v Speaker 2>and welcoming in community and acceptance. But when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>down to doing that, they don't like the consequences of

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<v Speaker 2>doing that. The social consequences of social justice don't sit

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<v Speaker 2>well with them, so they're like, oh well, let's find

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<v Speaker 2>somebody else.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that actually jumped That was one of the things

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<v Speaker 3>in the article that really jumped out at me was

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<v Speaker 3>there was a quote from Deacon Robert Donlin that was,

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<v Speaker 3>we have got to put more butts in the seat.

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<v Speaker 3>Butts in the seat, quote unquote. So apparently these butts

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<v Speaker 3>in the seat are more important than this message of inclusivity,

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<v Speaker 3>community spirituality, and justice that the church claims to stand for.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what was in its mission statement. But inclusivity, community spirituality,

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<v Speaker 3>and justice just don't put money in the collection plates,

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<v Speaker 3>no matter how many thoughts and prayers you devote to it.

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<v Speaker 3>So you really need, I guess, to get those butts

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<v Speaker 3>in the seats because those butts have wallets and apparently

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<v Speaker 3>at this church, money speaks louder than Jesus, right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what kind of message that is. If

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<v Speaker 3>you just want to put butts in the steats, why

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<v Speaker 3>don't you just start offering uh, slot machines, blackjack, weed, alcohol,

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<v Speaker 3>and sex workers.

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<v Speaker 2>Kerry, I gotta say money speaks louder than Jesus is

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<v Speaker 2>a T.

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<v Speaker 4>Shirt except when.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly except what he was actually flipping over, like the

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<v Speaker 1>money changer tables, I would consider that pretty loud. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Okay, So guys, it's it's kind of interesting

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<v Speaker 1>that you bring up, Kelly, that Reverend bos as well,

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<v Speaker 1>and according to the mission of the church, brings up

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<v Speaker 1>like a mission and also a message about inclusivity and

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<v Speaker 1>acceptance and you know, and all the things that make

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<v Speaker 1>you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside. Yet

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<v Speaker 1>this is not something that's putting the quote unquote butts

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<v Speaker 1>in the seat. But I'm wondering what would because one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that I think that a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>us that happen to be in a secular community that

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<v Speaker 1>is in the process of trying to build more in

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<v Speaker 1>community is to be inclusive, is to be equitable, is

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about justice, is to talk about those things

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<v Speaker 1>that are not necessarily something that is considered cool or

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<v Speaker 1>considered acceptable right now, because we want people to feel

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<v Speaker 1>like they're in a community where they are valued. So

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<v Speaker 1>what's the messaging that is going to bring more money

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<v Speaker 1>than Jesus, that is going to assist the congregation to

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<v Speaker 1>grow if we're not allowing the messages that would be

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<v Speaker 1>I would say, more welcoming to people than what they

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<v Speaker 1>are saying that they're not getting. Helen, what are your

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts on that.

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<v Speaker 5>All besides doing a hook or a blow church. I

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<v Speaker 5>think the only.

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<v Speaker 6>Way it's kind of like like we have progressive churches

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<v Speaker 6>you know around my area as well that is very

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<v Speaker 6>pro LGBTQ plus you know do but most of the

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<v Speaker 6>congregation are from those groups because they you know, they're

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<v Speaker 6>spiritual people, but they also want to be around other

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<v Speaker 6>like queer spiritual people, and I get that. You know.

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<v Speaker 6>The thing with you know, Boswell's congregation was they started

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<v Speaker 6>experiencing white guilt, you know, and then they there was

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<v Speaker 6>a woman in the article quote that quoted that she

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<v Speaker 6>was tired of going to church and feeling guilty, and

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<v Speaker 6>I'm like, well, that's the whole point of church. So

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<v Speaker 6>you missed, you missed the point of church. That's why

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<v Speaker 6>you go to church. But also, but the other side

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<v Speaker 6>of that is like to think that you know your

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<v Speaker 6>your pastors going there like you know, talking about what

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<v Speaker 6>may happen, you know, if we don't do something and

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<v Speaker 6>and follow in the words of Jesus as you know,

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<v Speaker 6>if you're you know, all for you know, if you're like,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, have a heart on.

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<v Speaker 5>For Jesus, you know you should be doing that.

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<v Speaker 6>But my she is is that because people had by guilt,

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<v Speaker 6>they were like leaving the church, and then you know,

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<v Speaker 6>the board and the people that ran the church was like,

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<v Speaker 6>oh no.

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<v Speaker 5>We're losing money. We're losing funds, as Kelly.

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<v Speaker 6>Pointed out, So that way he's over there, Kelly's over

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<v Speaker 6>there pointed out, They're like, oh fuck, how are you

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<v Speaker 6>going to make money?

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<v Speaker 5>We need butts in the butts in the seats and

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<v Speaker 5>church membership is just going down everywhere. So what you're

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<v Speaker 5>you want to be a.

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<v Speaker 6>Progressive church, you want to be a liberal church, but

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<v Speaker 6>you don't want liberal messaging. And this is kind of

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<v Speaker 6>the backlash We've been seeing a lot of the show,

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<v Speaker 6>like as soon as you start preaching politics in church,

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<v Speaker 6>you're you know, when you're violating the establishment clause on

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<v Speaker 6>both sides, you know.

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<v Speaker 5>Which, yes, I would love it.

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<v Speaker 6>I wish if you're going to be political, please be

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<v Speaker 6>political for human rights, you know, fighting against the things

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<v Speaker 6>that harm other human beings. I'm all for that, but

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<v Speaker 6>this is a consequence when religion and politics can't stop

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<v Speaker 6>fucking each other.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, you're going to get these issues of people.

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<v Speaker 6>You know, they're got only for you the reason either

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<v Speaker 6>you're going to be too progressive or are you going

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<v Speaker 6>to be too conservative? And people if they don't like

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<v Speaker 6>the messaging it as an online with their values, they're

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<v Speaker 6>going to leave. And this is a natural consequence.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if there is anything that they could

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<v Speaker 3>say to bring those butts into the church. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>because I mean, let's face that the pews are bleeding

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<v Speaker 3>worshippers like crazy right now. It's something it's a trend

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<v Speaker 3>we've been seeing for the last three or four decades.

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm not sure that there's anything that they could

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<v Speaker 3>be doing to bring those those butts back into the church.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I just don't know that there.

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<v Speaker 1>Is so Kelly, do you think that the church should

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<v Speaker 1>prioritize growing a congregation over prioritizing social justice messaging? Is

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<v Speaker 1>there way to reconcile between the two? Should religion dress

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<v Speaker 1>like you know Mary, and politics stress like Uncle Sam

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<v Speaker 1>and then continue to point one another. How does that work?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, here, here's an interesting question that get that

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<v Speaker 3>gets brought up by one of the things you just asked. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>we want to keep our government out of religion, right now,

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<v Speaker 3>it shouldn't we also be keeping the religion out of

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<v Speaker 3>our government. So when we're going to when we're talking

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<v Speaker 3>about the church rallying for this government issue, is that

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<v Speaker 3>something the church should be doing. Should they be working

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<v Speaker 3>on those political issues or should they just be working

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<v Speaker 3>on other social issues like helping the poor? Right? I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know that churches need to be getting involved with

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<v Speaker 3>anything political at all. And that's probably that's my big stance.

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<v Speaker 3>Nothing no, no, nothing political at all. But there are

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<v Speaker 3>many social issues that you can work on, like I say,

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<v Speaker 3>like helping out the poor. That's I don't know why

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<v Speaker 3>more churches aren't doing that. You know, It's always seems

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<v Speaker 3>like they're more than willing to help the one poor

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<v Speaker 3>person in there within their congregation. But if you're not

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<v Speaker 3>in their congregation, they don't have any interest in helping

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<v Speaker 3>you out. So I mean, I just don't Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think, like I said, I don't think they should

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<v Speaker 3>get involved with politics at all, well, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I would have to say, excuse me, Lionel, it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a little bit difficult for me to actually

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<v Speaker 1>say that politics is going to completely be out of

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<v Speaker 1>the religious pulpit only because you know, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that you mentioned, Kelly, is that there are social

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<v Speaker 1>issues that the church could totally work on that could

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<v Speaker 1>actually make people's lives better. But you know, if we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be honest, a lot of times that would

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<v Speaker 1>also involve some type of political and policy change in

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<v Speaker 1>order for that to you know, convey For instance, let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the poor. We know that we have more

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<v Speaker 1>working poor people in the States then we do people

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<v Speaker 1>who happen to be at the you know, upper echelon

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<v Speaker 1>of you know income, right, So a lot of times,

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<v Speaker 1>in order for them to get out of one area

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<v Speaker 1>into something that makes more sense would concern the government

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<v Speaker 1>actually saying okay, we want to help with that. And

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<v Speaker 1>the ones who would sometimes have a pulse have their

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<v Speaker 1>finger on the pulse to that particular issue with the church.

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<v Speaker 1>So if they're seeing core people come into their domicile

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<v Speaker 1>every week, they're you know, being part of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>feeding programs. If the church happens to have a safer

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<v Speaker 1>instance of shelter. You know, they know how many people

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<v Speaker 1>are coming in in order for them to house them

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<v Speaker 1>things of that nature. Sometimes even some churches like set

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<v Speaker 1>up five oh one c threes in order for them

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to employ social workers in order for

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<v Speaker 1>people to transition into housing things of that nature. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>and if weally think about it, all that stuff is political.

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<v Speaker 1>So even though, like I get what you're SA saying about.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if we are saying that there's an establishment

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<v Speaker 1>clause and we should keep you know, church and governments separate,

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<v Speaker 1>then they should be separate.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know, we have.

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<v Speaker 1>All these other issues that come up where it's almost

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<v Speaker 1>damn near impossible to do it. How do we reconcile that.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree with your example, but I think in that

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<v Speaker 3>in that example, we're using the church as a means

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<v Speaker 3>of research, right, We're using we're using what the what

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<v Speaker 3>they're doing to get research numbers to make it a

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<v Speaker 3>better to make better conditions for the poor, right. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's a far cry from the congregants of

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<v Speaker 3>a church going out to say a maga rilly and

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<v Speaker 3>supporting anti LGBTQ issues and that's the kind of stuff

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<v Speaker 3>I'm talking about. When you're actually got your church congregation,

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<v Speaker 3>when you actually got your minister encouraging the congregation to

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<v Speaker 3>go out and protest against a political issue, that's the

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<v Speaker 3>kind of that's the kind of thing I'm talking about,

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<v Speaker 3>trying that the church shouldn't be doing so. But I

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<v Speaker 3>agree with you. I mean, using them, use using the

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<v Speaker 3>data that they're acquiring for research purposes, that's great. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't see any problem with that.

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<v Speaker 1>So, yeah, I'm picking up what you're pulling down.

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<v Speaker 4>I think we should clarify that it was the case

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<v Speaker 4>in this church, right, So in this case, it was

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<v Speaker 4>more And I was going to point this at too,

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<v Speaker 4>because I feel like in this case it was Ben

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<v Speaker 4>Boswell who was preaching about inclusivity of people who are LGBTQ.

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<v Speaker 2>And and uh, you know, preaching about inclusivity and like

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<v Speaker 2>how to tackle race issues in positive ways, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of like, like, I believe, Helen, you mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>that a lot of the congregants felt white guilt, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's something because and I guess I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>speak for everybody, but I know that what happened to

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<v Speaker 2>me early on and my like learning journey is that

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<v Speaker 2>when I learned about way that I was benefiting from

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<v Speaker 2>things that were harming other people that didn't live the

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<v Speaker 2>same life as me, that didn't you know that that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, people of color, people who are marginalized, and

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<v Speaker 2>it does make you feel guilty because he started realized like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want anybody else to suffer, but I also

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to give up this benefit. And that's the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of first place that your mind goes. And it

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<v Speaker 2>takes some time if somebody intentionally sitting with that and

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledging it and working on it to realize like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>like me, losing the benefit isn't the only option. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>just make it so everybody has it, or like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't say anything about me as a person that

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<v Speaker 2>I just happened to be born under circumstances that allow

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<v Speaker 2>me to benefit from this while others were not. That

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't say anything about me as a person. But now

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<v Speaker 2>that I know, I have the option to either do

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<v Speaker 2>something or not. And people typically don't sit with it

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<v Speaker 2>long enough to have that realization.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's why he lost.

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<v Speaker 2>The numbers here. I don't. And to your point, Kelly,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't consider that the church getting involved in politics

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<v Speaker 2>because I don't think you know, issues of like race

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<v Speaker 2>and gender and sex and sexuality are a political issue.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's just characteristics of personhood. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, Ben Boswell is absolutely in the right,

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Boswell, I'll say, he'll use the correct honorific for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Boswell was completely in the right. I think doing

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<v Speaker 2>what he did. I think it's unfortunate that he, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>he lost his position for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, if you want to go into the proper honor form, uh, Lionel,

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<v Speaker 1>you should say reverend doctor doctor.

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<v Speaker 2>Reverend Well, he's no longer the reverend of the church, so.

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<v Speaker 5>He's still reverend.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that doesn't.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just like it's like when a senator is no

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<v Speaker 3>longer a senator, you still call them a senator exactly,

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<v Speaker 3>so I.

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<v Speaker 1>Could allegedly, Well, Eli and and Helen, I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>want you to chime in on this particular question, and

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<v Speaker 1>especially Eli, I want you to go first, because you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of brought this up in your thoughts. So, what

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<v Speaker 1>does this particular situation with reverend doctor Boswell bring up?

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<v Speaker 1>Like when we're when we're looking at the situation of itself,

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<v Speaker 1>and how it reveals the limits of progressive faith in communities,

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<v Speaker 1>what happens when confronting issues of race, privilege, and political

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<v Speaker 1>ideology converge. And I know that, And I know that

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<v Speaker 1>you talk specifically, Eli about sitting with privilege and really,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, kind of confronting what does that mean to

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<v Speaker 1>you as a heterosexual white man in America?

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<v Speaker 6>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>And how Okay, yeah, I do recognize this is something

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<v Speaker 1>that I have that not everybody else does. So how

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<v Speaker 1>does one actually, like you know, really sit with that,

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<v Speaker 1>contemplate that, and really confront that particular issue to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where we can say that now that I've done that,

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<v Speaker 1>I can go ahead and be a contributing factor to

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<v Speaker 1>others who may be confronted with the same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that the important, the most important for the

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<v Speaker 2>individual that's confronting it is to recognize that it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a statement about the individual that has the privilege. It

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<v Speaker 2>is not a judgment, it is not a statement of quality,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a value statement. It's just like, hey, be

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<v Speaker 2>aware of the fact that because of the way you look,

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<v Speaker 2>the way you present, you know, the way that you

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<v Speaker 2>were born in any number of categories, you just have

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<v Speaker 2>a particular privilege that not everybody else has. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you can acknowledge that that's the case and acknowledge that

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<v Speaker 2>it's not, that doesn't mean that you are bad. It

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean that you're good either. It doesn't mean anything.

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<v Speaker 2>It just means that you have a privilege that everybody has.

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<v Speaker 2>And when you recognize that, you can, you know, with

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<v Speaker 2>great power comes great responsibility. I don't know if we're

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to use that, but I mean you can.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you as long as you don't sing it, You're fine.

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<v Speaker 2>Once once you once you recognize that you have that,

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<v Speaker 2>you can then you know, not only it's it seems

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<v Speaker 2>kind of strange as they use that for good, but

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<v Speaker 2>like there are ways in which you can do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can then start to find ways that people

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<v Speaker 2>are trying to make changes so that not nobody so

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<v Speaker 2>that everybody has that benefit, so that nobody is suffering,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you can just kind of, you know, just

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<v Speaker 2>don't take it personally. That's it, Like it's not personal.

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<v Speaker 5>True.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks thanks v though, Helen cats.

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<v Speaker 6>So it's kind of for me, it's kind of it's

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<v Speaker 6>a little weird for me existing like personally existing because

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<v Speaker 6>I'm hight and I'm just presenting, but I'm also a

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<v Speaker 6>woman and I'm queer, so I get certain benefits of privilege,

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<v Speaker 6>but other benefits.

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<v Speaker 5>I do not have. So when you're kind of in that.

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<v Speaker 6>In between space, it's you become hyper aware of the

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<v Speaker 6>things you have privileges of and the things that you don't.

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<v Speaker 6>And I think that the complexity of it too can

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<v Speaker 6>be lost on people, like especially like if you're a

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<v Speaker 6>white CIS woman, you have certain benefits that you take

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<v Speaker 6>it for granted, but you're still in certain circles considered

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<v Speaker 6>a second class citizen because you want a vagina, so

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<v Speaker 6>you know, as it goes, So you know, we're like,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, use a black woman or have it. We're

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<v Speaker 6>both women, but we're having a different experience based on

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<v Speaker 6>our you know, our race. You know, you like you

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<v Speaker 6>have more melanin than me, so.

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<v Speaker 5>You know whatever. I don't know what that means, but

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<v Speaker 5>apparently mean something. And I you have beautiful brown skin,

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<v Speaker 5>so for good something. So when you're when you're dealing.

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<v Speaker 6>With these like intersectionalities of uh, you know, feeling the

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<v Speaker 6>effects of history and society upon you, you have to

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<v Speaker 6>deal with that complexity. And I think, as Eli said,

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<v Speaker 6>some people like I had to sit there and think

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<v Speaker 6>about like what ways I'm privileged and what ways that

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not privileged, and how they intersect. As Eli said,

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<v Speaker 6>some people that as soon as that cognitive dissonance starts,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, wearing this ugly head, they don't sit there

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<v Speaker 6>and go, well, I'm comfortable, you know, I you know,

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<v Speaker 6>like obviously like I don't want anything happened to marginalized groups,

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<v Speaker 6>but they're not thinking about how their privilege, which, as

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<v Speaker 6>Eli said, it's you.

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<v Speaker 5>Just have it. It doesn't say anything about you.

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<v Speaker 6>This is just history, you know, rearing its head again,

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<v Speaker 6>and that's that's what you're facing, you know. And it

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<v Speaker 6>takes work to like sit there with those feelings and

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<v Speaker 6>go is this true and how and how does this

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<v Speaker 6>affect my place affect others?

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<v Speaker 5>And I'm going to lift others up with me?

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<v Speaker 6>Or am I just going to sit comfortably and just

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<v Speaker 6>be like okay, well, you know, let them figure it out.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that all of us that are sitting on

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<v Speaker 1>this panel right now can identify because of the way

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<v Speaker 1>that we present that we have a certain privilege, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>all of us do, but how that shows up in

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<v Speaker 1>certain spaces is going to differ because of our lived

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<v Speaker 1>experience being who we are. But I think that one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that Reverend Boswell was trying to highlight

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<v Speaker 1>so desperately to his congregation is that listen, because we

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<v Speaker 1>are all people who are here, there's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>certain privileges that we're going to possess because the majority

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<v Speaker 1>of us are white, the majority of us are sis presenting.

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<v Speaker 1>The majority of us, you know, have not experienced certain

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<v Speaker 1>historical implications and issues that have befallen us that would

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<v Speaker 1>you know, do things like I don't know, mess with

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<v Speaker 1>our income uh to the point where like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there there's going to be like certain things like redlining,

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<v Speaker 1>that's not going to be as as an effect on

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<v Speaker 1>us than it is going to be like for say

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who is black or somebody who happens to be

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<v Speaker 1>from another marginalized community. Where as a as a cis

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<v Speaker 1>had white male. If I go to the hospital, there's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to be an automatic assumption that I don't

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<v Speaker 1>feel pain right like, but if I go to the hospital,

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<v Speaker 1>that that assumption sometimes is there. So I think that

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<v Speaker 1>if I were to take anything away from this particular episode,

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<v Speaker 1>and especially what the messaging that you know Ben Boswell had,

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<v Speaker 1>it was more so saying that all of us need

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<v Speaker 1>to check our privilege, and all of us need to understand,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the historical implications that may have been fallen

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<v Speaker 1>on some groups that happen to be in the United

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<v Speaker 1>States versus others, and that growing a church is not

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<v Speaker 1>always about telling everybody what they have, what they want

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<v Speaker 1>to hear, but what they need to hear.