Speaker 1: What's going on? Thank you so much for listening to
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much for your support. What if I told you that
in Nigeria a Christian is murdered for their faith every
two hours, every two hours. Let me introduce you to
Raymond Ibrahim. He is a distinguished Middle East expert, a
scholar providing insights into Islam, the West, the ongoing challenges
facing Christian communities worldwide. He is the author of several
books about the history of Islam and the West, specifically
about the intersection of religious ideology and warfare, and you'll
hear him discuss this. His latest book, which you can
pre order now, is called The Two Swords of Christ.
He also has written books entitled Defenders of the West,
The Christian Heroes who Stood against Islam, Sword and Scimitar
fourteen centuries of war between Islam and the West crucified again,
exposing Islam's new war on Christians. He wrote the al
Qaeda Reader and a book called The Battle of Yarmuk,
which if you've never heard of this, it's an amazing story.
So yesterday after the show, I had the opportunity had
the chance to chat with Raymond about some of this stuff,
but specifically about what's happening in especially in Africa with
the persecution, the murdering of Christian I came across your
YouTube channel a couple of weeks, maybe a month and
a half ago or so, and I've just watched I
think every episode, even the really long ones, And I
apologize for not having been aware of your work before,
but you've been doing this for a very long time,
since like twenty eleven. I want to say, so, if
we could just condense like your twenty years of research
and expertise along with like fifteen hundred years of this
I'm into like fifteen minutes, we'll be fine. We'll be
good to go. So let's start with the thing that
prompted me to reach out to you, actually, which was
about the Christian persecution that's going on around the globe.
So you've been monitoring this for twenty years, right, and
you've been doing these monthly updates. I am embarrassed. I've
never heard of these before. So tell us first, like
where do you get this information from? And then we'll
get into sort of what the data shows.
Speaker 2: Sure, So the musclim persecution of Christians has been one
of my fortes in that I've been really following it
for a law long long time, actually over more than
twenty years. My first published article on that topic was
probably twenty years ago. But what you're referring to in
twenty eleven is when I started compiling reports, which I've
still been doing so for fourteen years, monthly reports, and
I get this information from a variety of sources. Sometimes
it's the mainstream media if the attack is spectacular and
graphic enough and they are forced to cover it, I'll
use I can use some of them, but more often
than not, it's sort of smaller organizations, human rights groups,
and sometimes individuals, including on the ground and often in
different languages like Arabic that I get it from. Because,
as you can imagine, it's not exactly a topic that's
being as you mentioned, you know, you don't know about it,
and it's not really your faults because the media doesn't
want to talk about it even though it's really a
big topic. So yeah, I've been doing that for a
long time. My twenty thirteen my book Whus Fight Again,
is devoted to it, and it really gets into the
doctrines and the histor ties, the past and the present together.
And you know, from a personal level. It all started
because my family comes from Egypt, were cop to Christians,
so we have a long appreciation of Islam and you
know how it behaves vis a v. The Infidel. So
even in my youth, I already was hearing stories and
quite acquainted with this phenomenon and yeah, that's that's it
in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: So you were born in America, but these were stories
that you heard growing up from your family that came
from Egypt.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, I mean the first time I was introduced
to this topic was in my very early youth from
family members and relatives who would visit. And I also
visited the region and saw it firsthand as well. So yeah,
that's the sort of the genesis of my interests. But
since then I've more you know, focused on it from
a more professional kind of level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, if it's something that you're interested
in and you can pay to research it like that
sounds like best of both worlds. So the one that
one of the stories that did break through Nigeria recently,
and I heard you talk about this on one of
your episodes that it was framed, and when you said it,
I was like, I had no idea this is this
is what I thought too. And I follow the news
pretty closely. I mean I've been doing this now, you know,
twenty years. I followed the news really closely, and I
had heard this, Oh it's against the the farmers and
the herdsman and that's the fight. And there was this
massacre over like between farmers and herdsmen, and I was like, huh, okay,
well that's weird. But you know, I'm not I don't
know anything about Nigeria and their politics or land use disputes,
but that wasn't what really this is about, right, No,
not at all.
Speaker 2: That's exactly how the media and politicians like to dissemble.
You know, there's a kernel of truth to it that
most of the attackers are herdsmen and nomad's. They're known
as the Fulani and most of those being attacked are
set in tree farmers, but behind the scene, the Fullanies
are Muslim and the set in tree farmers are Christians,
and the Fulani habitually articulate their raids as a ghod.
I quoted once a Christian nun, a sister sister something
I forget her name from Nigeria, and she said, it's
hard to call this a land dispute when those attacking
are wearing black like Isis, chanting Koronic phrases and saying
kill the infidels on allha akbar. So it's absolutely a
g hod from the Muslim side, and they are focusing
on Christians, and sometimes Muslims also get killed because a
lot of times there's moderate Muslims living amongst Christians in
these villages, and the Muslims have even you know, the
groups and the Islamic groups. They're like Bokoharam and other
Islamic terror group have rationalized that you can kill those
Muslims because they're just as good as infidels, because they
live with Christians and you should hate Christians according to
Islamic teaching like Qoran sixty forty and so forth. So yeah,
it's absolutely a religious persecution of Christians. A lot of
human rights groups call it a genocide. You're probably referring.
I spoke to a priest there, and you know, he
confirmed everything that I knew. I again, because I've been
following the persecution of Christians in general for a long time.
Nigeria has definitely been you know, at the four of
that because you can't escape it. There's more Nigerian Christians
get killed in any Christian in general. I think the
number is two per one per one every two hours
in general. So twelve Christians every single day in Nigeria,
three hundred and sixty five days a year are slaughtered
for their faith and thousands of churches have been destroyed.
But yeah, you don't know, those black lives don't matter
apparently because they're Christian and there's no political agenda that
can be used to you know, to to exploit this with.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, And the priest was asking for attention,
asking for help. The I believe he said, the Nigerian
government is not helping to defend them. I mean, it's
just it seems I don't know, it seems I don't
want to say hopeless, but it seems it's very frustrating. Yeah,
it's discouraging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems serren Actually, yeah, the government has been
well known to It's not only that. There's multiple anecdotes
that have come from local Christians, including Christian leaders are
in priests and bishops from those regions saying that, you know,
the military is in the region, but once the terrorists come,
they just leave or turn a blind eye. And even worse,
there's been actual instances where people say the military provides
them with cover and yes they did this arm you know,
the people of Nigeria, but the terrorists always have weapons
for some reason, these guys who are operating supposedly illegally.
So for a lot of Christians in Nigeria, this is
actually intentional and the government is somehow in cahoots with
the some nefarious agenda that is exploiting Islamic jihadism, the
vsav these poor Christian farmers. Remember, Nigeria is about half Christian,
half Muslim and in a way, it's also a reflection
of what happens when you have you know, equal forces
of Muslims and Christians or non Muslims living side by side.
It's interesting because there's a whole dynamic about numbers and
when the numbers are very few, you know, let's say
in America, how Muslims behave is a certain way, and
then when they grow, like in Europe, then they behave
another more aggressive way until you get to what you
have in Nigeria. And then when of course it's ninety
or one hundred percent Muslim, then is you know, Christianity
is snuffed out altogether, like in Saudi Arabia for instance.
Speaker 1: So in Nigeria, according to the reporting, sixty two thousand
Christians have been killed since two thousand, sixty two thousand
over the course of the last twenty five years. The
International Committee for Nigeria refers to this as the Silent slaughter.
Now he mentioned some of those numbers, the population numbers,
and how that affects the aggression levels. Here's a great idea.
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make memories that'll last a lifetime. Did an interview with
Raymond Ibrahim All, author of like seven books here about
Islam and the West and basically the historical the stories
from history of the wars fourteenth centuries of war between
Islam and the West. That's one of the books he
wrote called Sword and Scimitar. By the way, you can
find his work at Raymond Ibrahim dot com. That's ib
R a him Ibrahim Raymond Ibrahim dot com and there's
a link in the podcast so you can just click there.
So he mentioned the numbers, specifically the population numbers. When
the Muslim population grows and eventually attains power, he said,
that's when we see the rights of Christians and Jews
decrease or completely go away along with all the Christians
and Jews. I asked him if this was doctrinal or
strategy of some kind.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's fundamentally inherently it is doctrinal Islam teaches.
You know, I'm doing a deep dive again in one
of the what I consider the most dangerous doctrine of
Islam and basically, in a nutshell, commands Muslims to hate
non Muslims intrinsically, not because of what they do. And
there's these you know, leading jurists like ib Miltemeia who
say even if a non Muslim is good to you,
you have to hate him. And there's other Muslim cleric
saying if you're married to a Christian or Jewish woman,
which is permissible according to Islam, you have to hate her,
but you can enjoy her carnally, but you have to
show her that you hate her. So hatred for the
infidel is an ironclad aspect. As I mentioned Koran sixty four,
then youone can look it up if they have an
actual accurate translation. It tells Muslims you have an example
in Abraham Ibrahim because he told his people we enmity
and hatred shall last between us until you become a Muslim.
So that is that's the you know, the bedrock verse
of the of the hostility. But beyond and above that,
specifically in regards to Christians and Jews, is Koran nine
twenty nine, which basically says fight the people of the book,
which Muslims have defined as Christians and Jews until they
either pay tribute or become Muslim jizu as the tribute,
or they become Muslim, or you fight them to the death. Okay.
And there's other verses which literally say Infidels are they
who say Jesus is the son of God. Infidels are
they who believe in a trinity and to be an
infidel people don't understand this. The word caf in the
singular is basically to be a default enemy of Islam,
a sub human. Essentially, you're not even you know, you
just exist to be conquered, trampled upon, subjugated, killed, whatever,
until you convert. Okay. So absolutely there's a doctrinal aspect
to it, and even more specifically, the details come out
in what's called the conditions or the stipulations of Omar.
And this is a document that is purportedly was written
between the second Khalif Omar and the conquered Christians of Jerusalem,
or there's some debate it could be the Second Omar
in the eighth century, but be that as it may.
It basically tells Christians you have to abide by all
these rules, okay, all of which by modern day standards
are considered inhumane and absolutely have no fairness or equality.
You can't build churches, you can't repair churches. You can't
let a Muslim see a cross or a Bible. We
don't want to hear your praise or singing. If a
Christian wants to convert to Islam, and we could, you know,
Muslims convince him one way or the other. You can't interfere.
You have to stand up and give your seat to
a Muslim if they want it. You have to open
your door to Muslim travelers if they want it. So
that kind of thing was historically implemented, but it still
informs the mentality of a lot of Muslims because that's
the proper place of a Christian. He has to be
subdued and a second class citizen at best, which is
why in many ways this is happening not just in Nigeria,
but essentially in any Muslim country that has Christian populations.
And I'll close it just by saying that open doors
kind of. A human rights organization publishes a report annually
called World watch List, which ranks the fifty worst nations
in the world that persecute Christians and habitually, I've been
reading it for well over our decade. Every annual report
about thirty seven thirty eight sometimes more of the fifty
nations are Muslim nations. So I think that really underscores
what we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: I want to I have the list number one. I
guess This is from the most recent one, the annual
report you ran through these numbers, North Korea was number one,
which I kind of found surprising for some reason.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't really ever consider it, but I
guess not to defend the North Koreans, but they kind
of oppress everybody, so I guess it makes sense that
the Christians would be on that list too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not that they Yeah, it's not
that they're pinpointing Christians. It's just that anyone who dares
go against the Supreme Leader, who's a cult figure essentially
is the enemy, you know. And but one thing to
keep in mind, because you're right, everyone gets shocked sometimes
when I talk about Islam, you know, the persecution Christians
by Muslims. People go, well, the worst countries North Korea.
There has nothing to do with Islam. And the simple
reply to that is, yeah, but that is also an aberration.
You know. It's not endemic to Korean society. Look at
South Korea where Christianity flourishes. So it's not a part
of Korean culture or anything intrinsic to it. It's just
one guy, okay, who is megalomania. Megalomaniac right, and if
and when he's gone, everything can completely change. In Islam,
that's not the case. It's not this or that group,
this terrorist leader or whatever. It's just the entire nation.
It's the entire civilizational block. Which is why when you
look at that list, those thirty seven thirty eight countries,
Muslim countries, they're completely different. Now, they're different racially. You
have like Turks and Arabs, and Persians and East Asians, Indonesians,
the Maldas, you have Sub Saharan Africans, and they have
different socioeconomic situations and governments, and yet they all do
the same sort of thing. Why Because it's Islam.
Speaker 1: That is the common denominator. It's what you were running
through earlier. It sounds a lot like supremacy, a supremacy ideology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good way to see it.
Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, like we're here, you're all there, and so
therefore we get to do all of these things to
you just based on our religion.
Speaker 2: Basically, Islam is inherently a supremacist religion. You know here
in the West, everyone is so obsessed with racial supremacy
and that kind of idea. But there is such a
thing as religious supremacy, and it's alive and well in
the Islamic world.
Speaker 1: I'll give you some of the other nations on that
list in a moment.
Speaker 2: You know.
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dot com. Yesterday after the program, I recorded this interview
with Raymond Ibrahim. You can read his work at Raymond
Ibrahim dot com. He's got a YouTube channel as well,
and he also does these monthly reports since two thousand
and eleven for the Gatestone Institute, and he compiles this
data on a monthly basis. But then there is this
world watch list put out by Open Door that tracks
Christian persecution, the Sannuel Report of the fifty worst countries
to be a Christian in and what they reported this
year was the worst level of persecution ever. Twenty percent
of all Christians in Africa are persecuted. Forty percent of
Christians in Asia are persecuted. The worst offending nations number
one North Korea, number two, Somalia, number three, Yemen for Libya,
number five, Sudan, number six, Eritrea seven Nigeria. So even
though like the stat we had there before of one
Christian murdered every other hour every two hours in Nigeria,
there's still just number seven on this list, followed by Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, India,
Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, and nine of these top thirteen countries
are Muslim countries, making up seventy percent of the worst
persecution from the national list. And here's another thing though
that may be shocking to hear. Canada. Canada is seeing
hundreds of churches being burned regularly, apparently, like there's a
whole bunch of churches getting burned in Canada. Once again,
member of the media here, I've seen nothing about this
at all.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because it's not reported, and if it is,
they'll they'll pretend it's not ourson. But yeah, Canada, this
little country, which supposedly is liberal and free and et cetera,
has become sort of the epicenter of burned churches, even
more so than in Europe. The fact is, you know,
before we delve into Canada, a lot of people don't
realize that all throughout the world, including in the United States,
and increasingly so not just Canada, churches are like almost
daily attacked in a lot of vile ways. Feces smeared
on them, you know, people urinating on alters, breaking crosses,
decapitating statues. That's like a I mean, if we talk globally,
several several churches experienced that every single day, so it's
definitely a growing thing. But in Canada it's really bad,
and it got really bad a few years ago. There
was an actual spate of attacks. That's when the media
kind of spoke about it. There was something like thirty
or forty attacks on churches and maybe in a month,
and the pretext was these graves maybe you heard about
these native graves were found and the long story short
is supposed the idea came out that Catholic missionaries were
somehow torturing natives and burying them to hide the evidence.
And that's been debunked continuously. Okay, I mean it's just ridiculous, absolutely,
but it's been used as a pretext to go on
a church burning spree. And the way to understand how
this is not even about that, because if it was
about that, you would attack. Okay, Catholic churches, that's the logic.
They're the ones who supposedly did this, but all sorts
of churches, right, yeah, right, including Coptic churches, the same
churches in Egypt that are being attacked by Muslims. Coptic
people go live in Canada and they probably started immigrating
there three decades ago at most, they have nothing to
do with these native graves which were supposedly buried a
century ago, and their churches are being burned by the
same people. And I think the interesting thing about that
to me is a lot of people they always they're
starting to sense that there's some sort of congruity between
Islam and what's called the left. Okay, and yeah, there is.
I mean, for example, attacks on churches that, like I said,
is something that's very normal by Muslims in the Islamic
world and also very much in Europe, constantly happening. But
also you see the left is doing it as well,
and maybe even more so at this point, and so
you kind of start seeing, Okay, while the left is
sort of a representative of this sort of extreme liberalism
and sexual promise, suity and confusion and you know, the wokeness,
and Islam is patriarchical. You know, no one understands how
are they in cahoots? Well, it's because the enemy of
my enemy is my friend, and their ultimate enemy is
Christian civilization. And you can see it in their constant
attacks on churches. I mean that's just one example, but
there's other examples that we can see and how they
both respond in the same way to free speech and criticism. Okay,
we know about Islam's blasphemy laws. For example, if you
say anything that can be you know, construed as negative
or critical about Islam, especially it's prophet, well you can
get yourself killed. Well, here in the West, we're starting
to notice that if you speak and say just the
truth and things that go against what the left wants
you to believe, you can go to jail. In fact,
most recently I learned that a Spanish priest, a Catholic
priest in Spain, is now facing three years in prison
because of Islamophobia because he said something critical about Islam.
And I just looked into it and what he said
is actually just what I'm saying, basic truisms, historical doctrinal truisms.
And because of that, the Left, just like Islam, is
not going to punish him. So yeah, there's definitely a
massive assault on Christianity and Western civilization in general, and
it's by what's called the left that's who's really spearheading it.
And in many ways, Islam and Muslims are their sort
of foot soldiers, but they have the same common enemy
and it's all being dissembled because the media works for them,
of course. And whether it's the persecution of Christians in
Nigeria or whether it's you know what's happening here in Canada.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the Ben Shapiro calls it the Omni cause.
And the quote I've been using is, you know, the
issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.
It doesn't matter what the particular issue of the day is,
just does it help it tear down Western civilization. And
if we can attack those foundations, then we all win
and it doesn't matter. We'll sort our differences out afterwards, exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's what I That's what I was alluding to
about Nigerian and black lives don't matter there. So here
in America, well, yeah, we can explore, we'll exploit one
black death, George Floyd and destroy everything because we're acting
like we care. But when it comes to hundred and
tens and hundreds of thousands of Blacks being slaughtered with
machetes and burned alive because of their faith, well we
won't even mention it. And not right there approves to
you that this isn't about being humanitarian or good or woke.
It's about exploiting all these pretextes for their own agendas,
which is, like you said, the destruction of the West.
Speaker 1: We'll have the final portion of the interview with Raymond
Ibrahim up next. So when I was a kid, my
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For a different future, for families, for more time for treatments.
This is why we walk. I did this interview with
Raymond Ibrahim yesterday the two year round nursery of the
October seventh massacre by Hamas against Jews and others, and
so we talked about that as well. October seventh, what
you just described with the attacks on Christians in Nigeria
and all over, I can't help but notice there seems
to be a bit of a similarity in some of
the tactics that you've discussed going back throughout history in
the you know from the crusades up to the present.
What we see in Nigeria right now and what we
saw in Israel on October seventh when Hamas crossed the there,
you know, broke through the fence line and murder twelve
hundred people. Is that like, We're not like, that's not
a coincidence, right.
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Anyone who's familiar with the true history
of Islam will realize that the continuity between what you
just described as staggering and unwavering. Okay, so, uh, you
know I have it right here. Whoever is interested my
main book that I wrote sort in Scimitar fourteenth centuries
of war between Islam and the West, which I document
from the very beginning. You know, the hostilities and violence
and warfare between Muslims and Christians and everything that we're
seeing today was on display then even more so so
when they tell you that you know, isis or the
Islamic state is hijacking Islam, and that's not how Islam
has acted in Islam was a beacon of light in
the medieval era, et cetera, et cetera. Those are again,
once again all lies or what I've dubbed fake history,
which is more dangerous than fake news because it sets
up false archetypes that people, you know, see reality through.
If anything isis is just a small, meager reflection because
what we had back then was massive caliphates okay that
could martial enormous resources and manpower and unleash them on
their enemies, the infidels and all. You know, most people
don't realize. Just you know, to summarize this and give
you an idea. What's today called the heart of the
Islamic world Okay, the Middle they call it Mina, Middle East,
North Africa acronym, and the Arab world. Essentially that was
all Christian. Not only was it Christian in the seventh century,
it was more Christian than Europe. When we think of
the past and we think of Christendom, you always think
of Europe. People don't realize that. But in the seventh
century and before that, the primary heart of Islam, of Christianity,
I'm sorry, Christendom was all of North Africa, especially Egypt,
especially Syria, especially what we call Turkey Asia Minor. This
is why Constantine moved the capital all the way to
New Rome Constantinople, which was essentially in Turkey today. That's
where all the you know, that's where and of course
that makes sense because that's where Christianity was born in
the Middle East, so obviously that area was Christianized a
lot earlier than distant Europe. Anyway, all of that was
conquered by Muslims. So today when you speak about the
Arab world, well that is conquered Christian territory. That's why
there are still cop to Christians in Egypt and Christians
Assyrians in Iraq and Syria because they're the indigenous inhabitants
and they were all Christians at the time. So yeah,
the whole thing was a long warfare, a long jehat.
It was doctrinally backed by the verses I mentioned violence
against Christians and Jews and conquests giving them three options,
et cetera, and the atrocities that the Muslims engage in,
and they're in the book, you know, beggar. The imagination,
in fact isis the key to understand Isis is there.
They are familiar with the history of Islam and they're
consciously trying to emulate it. In fact, people don't realize
that a lot of their words, what they used to say,
were actual formulaic phrases stripped from early Islamic conquerors and
Jihattis and calivehs and sultans, you know, like when they
would say we've tasted American blood, is none as sweeter? Well,
that that comes from hell. It Bineluel, the Sword of Allah,
the first battle against Christian Europe, the Battle of the
Armuk in six thirty six. He said, we've tasted Roman blood,
done tastes better, and we're here to kill you unless
you convert. So it's definitely the the continuity is there,
and like I said, unwavering. But the fact that most
people don't know that is once again a reflection of
how well the liars have been at concealing this. And
in this case it would be the first we spoke
about the media. Now we're talking really about the academics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so, I will tell you all, like I
saw the line in your right up on the Battle
of Yarmouck, where it was, and I remember the line
being uttered many many times after by leaders of Islamic
countries or terrorist organizations and they would say things like
you love life more than or we love death more
than you love life, And that comes from that same battle.
It's a callback and that's you know, inspiration and to
your point. I remember so after nine to eleven, I
did a series on Islam in two thousand and one
as a young reporter and part of that was to
go talk to local Islamic center EMA and he told me,
and I was young, in naive, he said Islam means peace.
And I said, oh, oh, is that nice?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Okay? And I found out years later that correct me
if I'm wrong, Peace through the submission to the will
of Allah, which I think is a different kind of
piece than what I thought he meant when he said
Islam means peace.
Speaker 2: Is that accurate? Yeah, that's accurate. And it's also a
word play because in Arabic, you know, several related words
are formed from the same trilateral root, triliteral root, three roots,
and so the word s l M Salama means peace.
But then how you change the vowels, So Islam it's
the same three letters, right, means you get submit, you
get peace through submission. So Islam is an imperative. The
word Islam is an imperative. I can say to you Islam,
which I'm basically saying submit, And the idea behind it
is in once you do you will have peace and
once you and if you don't, you will have war.
Speaker 1: Raymond Abraham, thank you very much for your time. I
do appreciate it. I could talk to you for a
lot longer, I suspect, but I've already kept you a
little bit past your time. Thank you for your generosity
with your time, and would love to do it again someday.
Speaker 2: Sure sounds good, Pete, thanks a lot.
Speaker 1: Thank you. All right. That was Raymond Ibrahim. You can
find his work at Raymond Ibrahim dot com. All right,
that'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much
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