Speaker 1: Six thirty in the morning, Kevin Gordon and for Brian
Speaker 1: Thomas fifty five KR see the talk station, and as
Speaker 1: always we've got Tech Friday with my good friend Dave Hatter,
Speaker 1: or as I like to call it, scare that hell
Speaker 1: out of here Friday.
Speaker 2: Dave, how are you this morning?
Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm good. Kevin, how are you?
Speaker 1: You're not bad at all, not bad at all. It's
Speaker 1: been a while since we've talked, which is a shame.
Speaker 2: That's not right.
Speaker 4: So I hate that I'm always scaring people, but always
Speaker 4: good to Charlie and hopefully Kevin, we're doing some good
Speaker 4: out there.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's always necessary to let people know what's
Speaker 1: going on, because I mean, there are so many people
Speaker 1: that are just you hear these things from time to
Speaker 1: time and it's just frightening as to all the scams
Speaker 1: and stuff that are there.
Speaker 4: Well, and you know, this is what I do for
Speaker 4: a living in my day job, and you know a
Speaker 4: big part of what we try to do with Interust
Speaker 4: is help you defend against these things and then be
Speaker 4: resilient so if you get hit as a business with
Speaker 4: one of these, you can recover quickly with minimal impact.
Speaker 4: But Unfortunately, unfortunately, these scams are running rampant. These folks
Speaker 4: are very smart. I mean, I can easily spend this
Speaker 4: whole half hour just telling you real world stories of
Speaker 4: things I personally have seen our companies experience, and in
Speaker 4: some cases they're devastating. Some companies do not recover from
Speaker 4: these things.
Speaker 1: I want to stop you for a second third day've
Speaker 1: hatter because you kind of minimize something there you talk
Speaker 1: about your day job and this sort of thing. What
Speaker 1: I know about you is that you know, there are
Speaker 1: people they're probably about four or five people that I
Speaker 1: know of that I've passed or that I've met through
Speaker 1: business contacts and whatever, that really have a passion for
Speaker 1: what it is they do. They are a student of
Speaker 1: what they do. They tend to I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: I've talked to you on a number of on a
Speaker 1: number of different issues. It's not like you're just you know,
Speaker 1: just as you know, blinders on single focus, but you
Speaker 1: are actually a student of this.
Speaker 2: You enjoy it, you like it.
Speaker 1: There's a certain amount I can tell you know when
Speaker 1: we talk about you have a passion for this, and
Speaker 1: that is rare. So it's not just a job to you.
Speaker 1: It's a passion, and it's something that you totally are
Speaker 1: doing a service to people and you enjoy what you
Speaker 1: do so well.
Speaker 4: That is a very time compliment and I appreciate that.
Speaker 4: But you know, I'm pretty nerdy Kevin, so I do.
Speaker 4: I enjoy the technology, but I also feel a little
Speaker 4: guilty sometimes because you know, I spent almost twenty five
Speaker 4: years of my career as a software engineer building this
Speaker 4: sort of stuff for people, and that's partially how I
Speaker 4: got into the cybersecurity pieces. I kept seeing the same
Speaker 4: mistakes being made. I kept seeing there there was not
Speaker 4: a focus on security. You know, most of most of
Speaker 4: the time, that focus would be on can I make
Speaker 4: what you want work? Can I get it done on
Speaker 4: time and within budget, as opposed to one of the
Speaker 4: downstream consequences if this, if this has a security breach
Speaker 4: of some sort, And that's really kind of what got
Speaker 4: And then then when I started to see all these
Speaker 4: nation state actors get in the game, China and Russia, Iran,
Speaker 4: North Korea, there's sort of the access of evil, if
Speaker 4: you will, in cybersecurity of the nation state actors. Keep
Speaker 4: in mind, you've got criminal gangs all around the world,
Speaker 4: you know, voting, these attacks on people, individuals, businesses. I'll
Speaker 4: tell you this is a true story, Kevin, first hand
Speaker 4: knowledge of this Cincinnati based company referred to us to
Speaker 4: a partner and an accounting company. They lost nine hundred and
Speaker 4: eighty three thousand dollars through account takeover that led to
Speaker 4: fraudulent invoices. And we see this sort of thing wow
Speaker 4: all the time. Now, what company has a spare nine
Speaker 4: hundred and eighty three thousand dollars laying around?
Speaker 2: I wish I did, but I don't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, me too, brother. That would be you know, devastating,
Speaker 4: if not potentially catastrophic for many businesses to lose that
Speaker 4: kind of money.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and Dave, that's not just the nine
Speaker 1: hundred and some thousand dollars. I mean, yeah, okay, that's
Speaker 1: a that's a hole in the budget. But when you
Speaker 1: look from an accounting standpoint at that company and you
Speaker 1: look at what their revenue is and what their bottom
Speaker 1: line is, let's say it's ten percent, That ten percent
Speaker 1: would equate to in order to make that nine hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars back. What is that something like nine billion
Speaker 1: in sales that you are nine hundred whatever the number
Speaker 1: is in sales so that you can equal that profit
Speaker 1: to pay that nine hundred million dollars.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's you raise another very valid point that oftentimes
Speaker 4: is misunderstood out there in the world of business until
Speaker 4: something bad happens. And I totally understand that your average
Speaker 4: business person is trying to run their business. They're trying
Speaker 4: to make money, they're trying to grow the business. They
Speaker 4: got all kinds of worries and concern and things that
Speaker 4: they want to do, things they're trying to do to
Speaker 4: be successful. I totally get that they don't want to
Speaker 4: have to know about all these things. They don't want
Speaker 4: to have to worry about this stuff. And what I
Speaker 4: often hear is, oh, we're a small business. We don't
Speaker 4: have anything worth stealing, and your money is worth stealing,
Speaker 4: and if you make it easy, they will steal your money.
Speaker 4: It's amazing how creative and deedious these folks are. And
Speaker 4: now you're throw in these generative AI tools, whether it's
Speaker 4: something like chats ept that can generate perfect English pros
Speaker 4: versus the broken English we would see in these attacks
Speaker 4: ten fifteen years ago, or all the way up to
Speaker 4: deep fake voice cloning. And I have people tell me
Speaker 4: all the time. They don't believe it. Kevin, I'm here
Speaker 4: to tell you, and I may have told you this before.
Speaker 4: John Matterich and WCPO called me up. We did a
Speaker 4: TV interview in less than one hour. I swear this
Speaker 4: is true, and you can look it up on their website.
Speaker 4: In less than one hour from the time he called me,
Speaker 4: I went out and found a free website that claimed
Speaker 4: to clone a voice. I'd never used it before. I'd
Speaker 4: never tried this before. I just knew it is a
Speaker 4: thing freesight, no experience. I get on there, I mess
Speaker 4: with a little bit. John shows up and in less
Speaker 4: than an hour you can see it in the interview
Speaker 4: I did with him.
Speaker 3: We clone his voice.
Speaker 4: Now he had to read a sentence a couple of
Speaker 4: times to train the tool, and then you can watch
Speaker 4: me in the interview type in Hello gram all this
Speaker 4: is John, I needs your help, hit a button and
Speaker 4: it comes out to speakers. Now that was no experience
Speaker 4: with a free tool two years ago. These things are
Speaker 4: way better. And then, Kevin, when I always get is well, Dave,
Speaker 4: I'm not a celebrity. How would you get my voice?
Speaker 4: How would the average criminal get my voice? I'm the
Speaker 4: CEO of the company X, or the mayor of city
Speaker 4: Y or whatever.
Speaker 3: Do you have a voicemail greeting?
Speaker 4: You do, I am you? I am you in less
Speaker 4: than fifteen minutes now that I encourage all of your listeners.
Speaker 3: It is very.
Speaker 4: Frightening because most people don't know it's a thing, and
Speaker 4: even if they've heard of it, don't believe it could
Speaker 4: happen to them. Again, if you have a voicemail greeting,
Speaker 4: if your voice is out there somewhere in social media
Speaker 4: or anywhere that a criminal can get to, you can
Speaker 4: potentially be deep voice clone.
Speaker 3: I encourage all your listeners.
Speaker 4: This was well documented in the media. The CEO of
Speaker 4: Ferrari had his voice voice clone and nearly fooled the
Speaker 4: CFO of Ferrari, the car people that they work with
Speaker 4: together all the time, nearly fooled them into making a
Speaker 4: financial transaction. It was only at the last minute, but
Speaker 4: the CFO started to get.
Speaker 3: A weird vibe.
Speaker 4: Everything was very unusual about what the CEO was asking for,
Speaker 4: and the CEO asked the quote CEO a question that
Speaker 4: only the CEO could know, and at that point the
Speaker 4: jig was up. He realized this was some kind of scam.
Speaker 4: This that is going to be a tsunami of crime, and.
Speaker 2: It is here today.
Speaker 4: I stress enough to people how it is. Just watched
Speaker 4: watch the interview John and I did. Go WCPO website
Speaker 4: or find me on social media. You'll find it and
Speaker 4: you'll see how easy this is.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. Well, Dave, we need to step out real quick
Speaker 1: and we'll come back. I want to continue on with this,
Speaker 1: and I got a little story last month. I was
Speaker 1: down at the Mid America Trucking Show and some of
Speaker 1: the technology that's coming out there in the AI area
Speaker 1: is right along this line of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: And I can see how that's great from their aspect,
Speaker 1: but how criminals can use that also.
Speaker 2: So we'll pick this up.
Speaker 1: My guest is Dave Hatter, cybersecurity expert, the top cybersecurity
Speaker 1: expert in the Greater Cincinnati and in my opinion, anywhere.
Speaker 1: I'm Kevin Gordon in for Brian Thomas, fifty five krs,
Speaker 1: the talk.
Speaker 2: Station, fifty five KARC. So how do we create value?
Speaker 2: This is great six forty one in the morning.
Speaker 1: Kevin Gordon in for Brian Thomas, fifty five krs, the
Speaker 1: talk station. Continuing our conversation with Dave Hatter, cybersecurity expert,
Speaker 1: one of the premier cybersecurity experts in the area, and
Speaker 1: from my opinion, anywhere that I've found anyway.
Speaker 2: So Dave I mentioned.
Speaker 1: Before the before the break that I had been down
Speaker 1: at the Mid America Trucking Show last month and one
Speaker 1: of the big people or one of the big advertisers
Speaker 1: down there that was making a splash is this using
Speaker 1: this AI technology? And he stopped by the booth and
Speaker 1: we had the interview and he talked about how this
Speaker 1: program that they have is geared towards the trucking industry
Speaker 1: and AI, I guess, is getting so specific now that
Speaker 1: when you are doing like voice commands or voice that
Speaker 1: it kind of can translate not only you know, you
Speaker 1: can do a sentence in English, French and whatever, and
Speaker 1: it will combine that and give the translation to a
Speaker 1: specific individual or get that out. Also they are interpreting
Speaker 1: better what he called what he referred to as blue
Speaker 1: collar English. And then it's specific because if you're in
Speaker 1: the trucking realm and this is a tool for the
Speaker 1: trucking realm instead of misunderstanding, as I texted you before
Speaker 1: the show or before we came on, I voicemailed or
Speaker 1: voiced a text to you and the word came out
Speaker 1: completely bizarre. But because of the text of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, it would have corrected that. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, from the aspects of getting load boards and
Speaker 1: finding loads and negotiating of AI, negotiating all the business
Speaker 1: and stuff with your truck so you don't have to
Speaker 1: do it while you're driving, is great. But then again,
Speaker 1: the way that can be used as what you were
Speaker 1: talking about, how that can be used, as you said
Speaker 1: with Ferrari, how you can really scam something is frightening.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree with you, Kevin. This technology is rapidly progressed. Now,
Speaker 4: I want to be really honest and tell you I
Speaker 4: don't think skynet is going to become aware anytime soon.
Speaker 4: We're not going to see terminators dropping out of the sky,
Speaker 4: wiping us all out or anything like that. Now, I
Speaker 4: also say, you know, I don't know what's in some
Speaker 4: lamp somewhere, Kevin, but I can just tell you if
Speaker 4: I'm working with.
Speaker 3: The tools that are readily available.
Speaker 4: Today, things like chatsypt or rock which is Ex's generative AI,
Speaker 4: or things like that, there's still a lot of limitations.
Speaker 4: And one of the concerns that many people raise on
Speaker 4: a regular basis is these things sollucinate. They just make
Speaker 4: things up. You know, maybe it's correct eighty percent of
Speaker 4: the time, and twenty percent of the time you don't
Speaker 4: know if what you've got is right or not. You know,
Speaker 4: that's one of the limitations. But to your point, you're
Speaker 4: also seeing more and this is not new, but it's
Speaker 4: come on rapidly and you're seeing it's spreading a lot
Speaker 4: of fields. Purpose built AI things that are designed to
Speaker 4: do a specific type of task. You know, chatsypt is,
Speaker 4: it can't do everything, but it can do a lot
Speaker 4: of different things fairly well.
Speaker 3: But there are other.
Speaker 4: Ais out there that have a specific type of task
Speaker 4: they're trying to do, and many of them are, you know,
Speaker 4: pretty spectacular. I can tell you we use some AI
Speaker 4: internally at Interest to do things like answer phone calls
Speaker 4: and rout them to the right people faster. So rather
Speaker 4: than have a human being kind of doing a routine, mundane,
Speaker 4: boring task all day long, they can focus on higher
Speaker 4: value things. They can focus on, you know, getting faster
Speaker 4: resolutions for our clients that sort of stuff, but this
Speaker 4: voice cloning thing, and it's not just voice, right, it's
Speaker 4: deep fake video as well. There are some documented examples
Speaker 4: in the media out there of people on how just
Speaker 4: call it a video conference for lack of a better description,
Speaker 4: where they think they're talking to a human being.
Speaker 3: There has been a plethora.
Speaker 4: Of stories hitting the news about deep fake AI being
Speaker 4: used for job interviews and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So I think it's never been more important, Kevin, for
Speaker 3: people to understand.
Speaker 4: The old adage of you know, if you see it,
Speaker 4: you can believe it kind of thing is no longer
Speaker 4: true because much of this technology is good enough now,
Speaker 4: especially if you're not aware this is a thing, especially
Speaker 4: if you're not thinking, am I actually talking to a
Speaker 4: human being here? Or am I somehow my talking to
Speaker 4: some sort of AI agent, whether it's a voice sort
Speaker 4: of video or whatever. And people go learn as much
Speaker 4: about this as you can.
Speaker 3: I mean, you don't need.
Speaker 4: To get into the business. Just go find some of
Speaker 4: these stories. Read that CEO story.
Speaker 2: See, there's got to be and there's got to be
Speaker 2: some way.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that somebody could probably make a fortune
Speaker 1: at this, and maybe we should develop it ourselves. Dave,
Speaker 1: and then we can retire being able to buy the
Speaker 1: words that are used, the phrases that are used, or
Speaker 1: maybe questions that you can ask to find out whether
Speaker 1: in fact you're dealing with AI or a human being
Speaker 1: or something like that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that technology is out there yet,
Speaker 1: but that would certainly there are.
Speaker 4: There are lots of smart people working on that technology
Speaker 4: to try to you know, whether it's watermark.
Speaker 5: Something or yeah, sometimes have a way to know that
Speaker 5: something is a deep daki the problem as I see it,
Speaker 5: and also you know, I'm not I don't have deep,
Speaker 5: deep knowledge in that space, especially the space of people
Speaker 5: trying to help you determine whether something's legit or not.
Speaker 4: Is the technology is moving very quickly, and the bad
Speaker 4: guys are super creative.
Speaker 3: Again, we could.
Speaker 4: Spend this entire segment, Kevin, I could probably talk to
Speaker 4: you for more than three hours. We could actual stories.
Speaker 2: We're heading in that direction, my friend.
Speaker 4: The creativity of the bad guys, it's quite insane.
Speaker 1: And what's even more insane, Dave Hatter, is the legislators
Speaker 1: trying to rain this in. They are at least what
Speaker 1: three years behind.
Speaker 3: It's it's tough.
Speaker 4: I can tell you. I end up, you know, talking
Speaker 4: to legislators in Kentucky a lot on these technology topics,
Speaker 4: trying to you know, give some insight and steer these conversations.
Speaker 4: I'm genuinely an anti regulation sort of guy.
Speaker 3: I know, this is such a wild.
Speaker 4: West out there, and it's it's moving so quickly, and
Speaker 4: I'm really concerned both for business related fraud and individual fraud.
Speaker 4: I mean, people are losing their life staving.
Speaker 3: Yes, Businesses are.
Speaker 4: Losing huge amounts of money, are going out of business
Speaker 4: because of this stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those things and until it actually
Speaker 1: hits you, you just, oh, that's the other guy.
Speaker 2: That's not going to happen to me. That's not going
Speaker 2: to happen to me, exactly.
Speaker 4: I fully understand how hard it is for people to
Speaker 4: believe this.
Speaker 1: All right, we need to talk and we need to
Speaker 1: talk about that because you presented this this what is
Speaker 1: it for Scouts twenty five report? We got to bring
Speaker 1: that up before we get out of here. Run up
Speaker 1: against the clock, but we'll step out here for a
Speaker 1: moment and we'll come back and hit that. My guest
Speaker 1: is Dave Hatter. He is a cybersecurity expert and love
Speaker 1: talking to him. I'm Kevin Gordon and for Brian Thomas,
Speaker 1: fifty five KRC The talk station
Speaker 2: Fifty five KARC get ready to vote