WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.839 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every week, 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.800 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 5 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:29.879 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.359 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:40.000 Good evening. 8 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:41.719 For all. 9 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:46.840 Tom Markquart knew Capital Gazette just had an unhappy reader. 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.320 What he didn't know was that the unhappy reader was 11 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:55.840 about to become a mass murderer. Markquart, the former editor 12 00:00:55.880 --> 00:01:00.719 of Capitol Gazette newspapers in Annapolis, Maryland, was a target 13 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.200 of a thirty eight year old loaner who sought to 14 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.599 avenge a twenty eleven article that reported the reader's conviction 15 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:13.400 of sexually harassing a former high school classmate. For years, 16 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:16.599 the man sued the editor, the reporter, and the newspaper 17 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:21.079 for defamation, then took to Twitter now x to lash 18 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:26.640 out against the editor and the reporter. Representing himself in court, 19 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.280 His lawsuit rambled and failed to persuade a judge who 20 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.680 easily dismissed it. He spent the next three years silently 21 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.120 plotting his attack on June twenty eighth, twenty and eighteen, 22 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:43.959 he blasted his way through the locked doors of Capital 23 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:49.159 Gazette offices and killed five employees. He called nine to 24 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.439 one one to confess, then hid under a desk while 25 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:58.560 waiting to surrender to approaching police. Marcourt spent two years 26 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:03.560 reviewing police and court files, eyewitness accounts, the killer's interview 27 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:08.439 with a state psychiatrist, and video footage to chronicle in 28 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.120 stunning detail what led up to the crime and how 29 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:18.000 the killer escaped detection. Press to Kill is a chilling 30 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:21.360 account of the worst mass murder at an American newspaper, 31 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.759 but more so, it is about the lives of those 32 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:29.439 who died their heroism that day and the remarkable response 33 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:34.039 from a community who rushed to its side. The book 34 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:38.960 we're featuring this evening is Pressed to Kill, Inside Newspaper's 35 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.280 worst mass murder, with my special guest, journalist and author 36 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:49.520 Tom Marquard. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 37 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:54.919 much for this interview. Tom markquart Thanks, thanks Dad, good 38 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:58.039 to be here. Thank you very much, and congratulations on 39 00:02:58.240 --> 00:02:59.599 this book, Press to Kill. 40 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.520 Thank you right away. 41 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.240 You take us to the origins of this story, and 42 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:11.520 this is centered in Annapolis, Maryland, and you wright, it 43 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:14.879 is the perfect place for budding reporters to launch their 44 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:21.000 journalism careers, a bustling hub of political influence and an 45 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:25.280 iconic city called Camelot on the Bay. Tell us a 46 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.520 little bit about the Capital Newspaper and before we talk 47 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:35.199 about July twenty six, twenty eleven and Arundel County District Court. 48 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.479 I lived in Annapolis for over thirty five years, but 49 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:41.080 it was a fascinating city. As you say, it was 50 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.039 called Camelot on the Bay by National Geographic that did 51 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:46.879 a very big spread on the many years ago. It's 52 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.280 a colonial city. It still has the original building that 53 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:54.240 housed the Treasury Department. It is the oldest surviving state 54 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:58.080 house still in use. George Washington resigned his commission there. 55 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:03.560 Kunti Kentei landed at a city dock. The history is 56 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:07.080 just endless. Home of the Naval Academy goes on and on. 57 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:11.039 But part of that history is the Maryland Gazette, which 58 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:13.599 is a forerunner to the newspaper we know today as 59 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:18.240 the Capitol Gazette. The Maryland Gazette was in existence in 60 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:22.399 the late seventeen hundreds was one of the first newspapers 61 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:26.600 in the United States. It protested the Stamp Act. It 62 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:31.199 was run by a fearless publisher who often ran a 63 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:35.600 foul of the local residents. Is certainly the British, so 64 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.079 it goes way back as far as history goes from 65 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.319 a newspaper standpoint. 66 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.199 Tell us just a little bit about Capitol reporter Eric 67 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:49.839 Hartley before we talk about and take our listeners to 68 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:53.959 Judge Jonas Legum's courtroom where a man was on trial 69 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.000 for stalking a former schoolmate. 70 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:01.439 So Eric Hartley was your classic reporter who came to 71 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:03.959 the Capitol. Really was just a little bit of experienced 72 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.120 paper one or two years at a smaller newspaper, looking 73 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.240 to get his next job at a place that was 74 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:13.800 the capital of Maryland. Also a place that was very 75 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.879 active in news. I mean, there was just a lot 76 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.560 happening in Annapolis. So it was a great stepping stone 77 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:22.800 for any young reporter. Eric in particular was a very 78 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.079 aggressive reporter, good understanding the news, a good writer. He 79 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.959 knew how to ferret out a story, and we assigned 80 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.040 him to the court beat originally, and then he impressed 81 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.879 us with his writing and we felt we need a 82 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.160 little bit more dimension to the paper, so we gave 83 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:40.519 him a column that allowed him to roam freely around 84 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.240 the city and address almost any kind of subject. That 85 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.560 was really the start for Eric Cartley. 86 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:52.240 Tell us about Lourie saunder Van and the case that 87 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:54.639 is in Judge Jonas Legum's courtroom. 88 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.399 So Laurie Saunderman was working at a local bank and 89 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:05.000 one day got a Facebook message Throm a former high 90 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:08.279 school classmate. They were out of school for probably a 91 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:12.680 good fifteen years, so she didn't immediately recall him. So 92 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.720 they started a conversation and he sent a photo of 93 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.600 him just to remind her. She actually called a couple 94 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.600 of other classmates to make sure he was a fellow classmate, 95 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:23.519 and he was. He was just a very quiet one, 96 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.759 you know, just being nice. She started up a conversation 97 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.560 that was really more by email and a little bit 98 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.160 of Facebook, but never a phone call or never a 99 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:37.040 face to face meeting, but just being friendly talking sharing stories. 100 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.600 They both had some mental struggles and so they shared 101 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.759 that information with each other. But at some point he 102 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:47.000 was getting a little too aggressive because she wasn't responding 103 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.319 to his conversations quickly enough. She started backing off of 104 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.199 that relationship. Feeling a little bit worried that he was 105 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.000 getting a little too aggressive. He in the meantime, was 106 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:58.959 hoping to strike up a conversation which they would meet. 107 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:02.319 He became very up set when she wasn't responding fast 108 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.839 enough and at some point just lit up and called 109 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:10.240 her all sorts of names. Ceased communication and he became 110 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.680 more aggressive. So what he did even called is per 111 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.319 bank and said that she had some mentalism mental issues. 112 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:20.439 She ended up getting fired or laid off on the bank. 113 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:24.240 She suspected this was the reason called. Her parents kept 114 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:27.480 pressuring her to keep the communication going and it didn't, 115 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.519 so finally her only step was find a lawyer and 116 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:37.199 press charges against him for stalking. He went before the judge. 117 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.879 This was in twenty eleven. Judge heard the case and 118 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:47.720 reduced the sentence to sexual harassment, which is very important 119 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.160 because that reduction allowed him to buy a weapon. He 120 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:52.839 wouldn't be able to buy a weapon if he was 121 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.519 convicted of stalking because it would have been a felony. 122 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:00.480 You know what, that was the case that went before judge. 123 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.160 You say that that Sondivan reached out to her friend, 124 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.879 which was an attorney named Brennan McCarthy McCarthy, and he 125 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.000 had helped her to obtain tried to obtain a peace order, 126 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.240 and he had said that he had found Ramon so 127 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:22.439 frightening that he urged the judge to order psychological evaluation. 128 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:26.600 But the judge denied that request, didn't he Yes. 129 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.279 That's correct. I mean when Brenna McCarthy, who was a 130 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.840 very strong lawyer and certainly not somebody who walks away 131 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.440 from a fight easily said he may de sign of 132 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.080 the cross when he met Jared Ramis because he was 133 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.279 just a frightening person. Give them what he had done 134 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.080 to his client. There were reasons to be concerned. So yes, 135 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.960 he was very worried. He asked for a mental evaluation, 136 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:50.240 which was denied to him. 137 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.399 Now, tell us about the story that is written in 138 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.840 the newspaper. In your newspaper, what is contained in that 139 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:06.279 story before we talk about when Ramos realizes this and 140 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.279 reads it and has a reaction. 141 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:13.039 So Eric carry went into the courthouse and just was 142 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.840 going through different cases. It's what he normally did to 143 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.440 try and find something that would be of interest. And 144 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:23.240 the courthouses are loaded with stories, you know, are neighborhood disputes, 145 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:27.559 their domestic quarrels. There are people suing people for different reasons, 146 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:31.679 but it's a great source for newsteps, and he came 147 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.879 across this case, so he thought, you know, it's really 148 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:40.399 your worst, your worst scenario of running across an old 149 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:45.360 friend from the former school and sudden being chased by 150 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:47.919 this guy and becoming scared. So he thought, well, this 151 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:51.200 is something that people could resonate with. So he wrote 152 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.399 the story, and it was really a story based on 153 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.039 what had happened in the courthouse. Everything I just explained 154 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:01.200 was laid out in detail with testimony from Laurie Sondervan. 155 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.200 So the story just filed along the same courses with 156 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.360 little elaboration. Really, we had tried to reach out or 157 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.320 had he tried to reach out to Jared Ramis through 158 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.159 the attorney because that was the only phone number he had, 159 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.679 but his attorney said, I'm not going to talk to 160 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.879 about my client about this. So Tory ran in twenty 161 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.840 eleven with the headline that Sared said, Jared Ramis wants 162 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:24.600 to be your friend. 163 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:30.240 What happens when Ramos reads this in the newspaper? What 164 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:32.039 is his reaction immediately? 165 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.399 So he didn't come across the story for several days, 166 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.240 and he was just putting his name in the search 167 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.559 field and came across the story because he did not 168 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.639 subscribe to the paper. When he reads it, becomes extremely upset. 169 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:50.240 He immediately starts a blog on Twitter that issues his protests, 170 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.200 starts making charges against the newspaper and the reporter and me. 171 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.720 You know, he's very upset, in particular that his name 172 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.519 was used and her name was not, so we don't 173 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.759 use the names of victims in that case. He was 174 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.320 also upset that he wasn't called. But as I said, 175 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.960 we tried reaching him. We just were unsuccessful. He launches 176 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.000 a protest that appears on Twitter largely, and he starts 177 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.159 calling us names, the reporter. Eric. He looked at those 178 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.360 tweets and he showed them to me, But we were 179 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:23.480 confident that there really wasn't any audience for them. They 180 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.159 were just really to himself and to Eric. He knew 181 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:28.919 Eric was looking at them, but I didn't stop. He 182 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.840 just it was his podium to get back at us 183 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:32.879 for writing the story. 184 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.120 Now, at that time, you were an editor at the paper, 185 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:42.120 and you had read the stories obviously and found nothing 186 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.399 wrong with that story whatsoever. Tell us a little bit 187 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.279 about your background at that time and the state of 188 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:50.960 the newspaper business at that same time. 189 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.679 So I had about forty years of experience, thirty five 190 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.639 of which were at kaplic is at newspapers, so you know, 191 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.559 I've been around a long time. I read the story, 192 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.399 looked at and there was nothing, nothing at all that 193 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.559 was alarming. There's certainly nothing that would constitute liable or 194 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.960 defamation of character because all the information was out of 195 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:15.000 a courtroom. When you use that information as law as 196 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:17.000 is fact, you have nothing to worry about. So there 197 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.240 really wasn't anything that was alarming in that story, you know. 198 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.480 So I mean from a libel standpoint. I've been sued 199 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.840 for libel before, so I understood libel, and I don't 200 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.759 think there was anything that was alarming at all about 201 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:27.240 the story. 202 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.279 Now, what was the state of the security at the 203 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.480 newspaper at that time? What things had you put in place, 204 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:41.039 what had the previous management put in place regarding security 205 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.919 at the newspaper. 206 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.679 The office that Eric and I worked in was not 207 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.039 the office where the incident happened. So in that office 208 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.960 where we worked, we were always concerned about the safety 209 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:55.320 of our employees, you know, for one thing when the 210 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.519 when the office was built, which was in nineteen eighty six, 211 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:02.320 we were growing in circulation. We had our own press 212 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.399 on the premise. We really wanted to be transparent to 213 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.679 the community. So when you walked in the door, there 214 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.000 were no walls. You could just see five or six 215 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.559 departments just by walking into the lobby, so it was 216 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:19.120 a very open office building. Eventually, we had a security 217 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.879 system at the back door their employee entrance as well 218 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.360 as the front door, because we did have an incident 219 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.799 in which a convicted felon came back and talked to 220 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.200 one of our people in the community news department, so 221 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.559 we started we had guards at actually one time walking 222 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.879 down the hallways, which we had to eliminate with budget cuts, 223 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.480 but it was pretty secure. So that office building I 224 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:44.320 thought was pretty secure. People just didn't walk around without 225 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:48.320 being escorted or have an appointment. Fortunately they moved to 226 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.000 a different office during the budget cuts. And this was 227 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:53.960 at a time, you know, when our circulation was starting 228 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.799 to decline. When I moved up to the publisher's position, 229 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:02.480 we saw circulation plummeting. Advertising was dropping as a result. 230 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.279 So he had the competition from Craigslist. He had a 231 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.919 competition from the internet. It was not a good time 232 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.000 for newspapers in general, and we were no exception. So 233 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.960 at that point I was laying people off and trying 234 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.879 to drop expenses. We closed our press mood to another facility, 235 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.759 outsourced it, and there's some pretty dramatic cuts department by department, 236 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:25.759 including the newsroom. 237 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:31.759 But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 238 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:37.120 let's get back to Eric Hartley showing you these Twitter tweets. 239 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.919 At that time, you said you didn't news Twitter, so 240 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.759 he showed you the content of the tweets that Remos 241 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.320 had already levied against the newspaper and Sounder Van. So 242 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.360 tell us what your discussion was with Hartley regarding the 243 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:54.799 content of those tweets. 244 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.480 Well, initially we didn't understand them. They rambled, They made 245 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.919 reference is to things we just didn't know about. You know, 246 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.080 there were he called me evil, Tom, call me hit man. 247 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.440 He had these strange icons pasted on our foreheads. He 248 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.720 was he was rambling and he said, we're going to 249 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:17.399 take you down. He's talking about poker games. We just 250 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.720 didn't know what he was talking about. So it really 251 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.159 didn't alarm us because we just thought he was deranged, 252 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.159 really did it Just it was like, this guy's crazy. 253 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.320 There wasn't anything initially that was alarming to a point 254 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.759 where we felt threatened in any way. It was just 255 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:37.720 a guy who was unhinged and just we didn't understand 256 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:39.720 what his message was. So Eric and I would talk 257 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:43.919 about it. Actually we probably laughed about it and said 258 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:46.559 let's keep an eye on it because we didn't know 259 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.240 where he was going. I mean, like you said, Twitter 260 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.960 was new at that time. The reports were just starting 261 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.120 to use it, and I was not on Twitter, not 262 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.480 using it, so I was unaware. So I just said 263 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.080 to Eric, I said, let's just keep an eye on 264 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.399 this guy and let me know if there's anything more alarming, 265 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.879 if it gets progressively worse, and it did. 266 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:11.360 What was happening regarding Lorie Sondervan after she had confronted 267 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.799 Well Raymonds in court, what was her experience after that 268 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:16.759 court case. 269 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.279 Well, it didn't get better, you know, And certainly that's 270 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.000 what she had hoped, is that he would get the 271 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.080 message and just go somewhere else and stop bothering her. 272 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.240 But he was very careful. He would wait until the 273 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.360 restraining order expired. He would start again, that he would 274 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.919 send her messages by email. She had BlackBerry, so she 275 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:39.519 was getting messages on her BlackBerry making veil the threats, 276 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.960 and at some point she says, this has got to stop. 277 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:45.759 So she talked to the police. She had some friends 278 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.440 and the police, and she said, I'm going to get 279 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.159 a weapon, and they cautioned her that there are a 280 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.240 lot of laws that would restrict her from using it. 281 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.320 You know, she would have to make sure there was 282 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:58.840 no other place that she could escape to before she shot. 283 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.559 He said, you know this is crazy. I'm gonna move 284 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.759 to a state that has a loser protection lass. She 285 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.160 decided to move. She had lost her job. She had 286 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.240 family in Maryland, but she decided it was safer if 287 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:18.400 she left the state. So she packed up. She got 288 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.119 in her car and as she pulled out the driveway, 289 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.039 she got a message from Jared Rayma say you can run, 290 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.400 but you can't hide. She still has no idea how 291 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.559 he knew that she was leading at that point, let 292 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.319 alone where she was going. So she fled the state, 293 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.319 changed her name. It's still changed her name. She moved 294 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.400 twice actually, just to make sure that he could not 295 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.519 follow her, but lo and behold, one day she appeared 296 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.480 in a newspaper photo attending an event and was identified 297 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.079 and he found it. I mean, he must have been 298 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.519 searching the internet every day trying to find out where 299 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:58.640 she went. All he knew is that she was in 300 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:03.640 this area of South Carolina. You know, that was the 301 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.880 end of that, but he continued to harass her as 302 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:07.839 much as he could where she was. 303 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:13.720 You found out his background, his professional background, his education, 304 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.720 and what he was doing as employment at that time, 305 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:24.480 which might explain his knowledge of everything about Lorie Sondervan. 306 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.759 Right, And we knew at the time that he was 307 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:32.640 a contracted employee with US Bureau Labor and Statistics, so 308 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:37.200 he had clearance. His father had also security clearance, so 309 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:39.400 it was easy for him to get an interim job. 310 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:41.799 And he ended up getting this job that he would 311 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.319 work at Knights, which I didn't realize he was working 312 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.400 at Knights, but he had security clearance and it allowed 313 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.200 him access through his office computer when nobody was around 314 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.160 to do all his research. And that's what he was 315 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.880 doing mostly on the job, was looking up his enemies. 316 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.839 He was looking up Lorie Sondervan, He's looking up me, 317 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.079 He's looking up Eric Hartley. He's looking up anybody who 318 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.559 crossed his path, Brendan McCarthy, the judges, any reporter who 319 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.440 worked at the newspapers. So all he did was just 320 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.880 relentlessly dig up background about all of us. 321 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.559 What was his legal profession, what things did he do 322 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:24.440 in the legal arena, as his sense of revenge intensified. 323 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.839 He's a pretty bright guy. He graduated thirteenth in his 324 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.400 high school class. He scored well on his SATs. He 325 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.200 went to a smaller college. But what he did on 326 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.440 the side is that he says, you know, I know 327 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.160 more about law than most lawyers, and so he began 328 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.799 to research the law. He actually talked to a lawyer 329 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.559 because he felt, you know, if he had a case 330 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:49.519 against the capital, a lawyer would help would help him. 331 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:51.480 But the lawyer took a look at the case and said, 332 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.119 you know, you have really no case here. This is 333 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.640 all a story that was taken out of a court trial. 334 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:01.000 There's nothing here to sue for defamation or for libel. 335 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.599 The lawyer said to him, if you're so persistent about it, 336 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.359 why don't you just go ahead and represent yourself, And 337 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.039 he said, you know, I think I could do that. 338 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.359 So he studied law in his free time and researched 339 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.079 as much as he could. He went down to the courthouse, 340 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.799 took all the proper paperwork, filed it correctly, and then 341 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:24.039 one day just sued us for defamation and libel. 342 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:28.200 Tell us about what you found in terms of his 343 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:34.960 psychological background and any therapy, psychologists or therapy that he 344 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:36.640 was ordered by the courts for. 345 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.000 Yes, he was ordered to seek counseling after his conviction 346 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:46.240 for sexual harassment. He had already been seeing a therapist 347 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.079 really for I guess what you call minor issues. He 348 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:51.640 always felt he was pretty much a loner. He always 349 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.839 felt he was abandoned as a child, and he held 350 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.200 a lot of grievances against his parents. So he had 351 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.759 some mental issues that he would see can counselate for. 352 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:05.039 But now the court ordered counseling session began, and you know, 353 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.480 he went to that trying to manage his anger more 354 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.079 than anything else. He basically abandoned that after he could 355 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:14.920 because he felt he no longer needed it. But you know, 356 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.240 he showed the signs of narcissism. You know, he had 357 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.079 other signs of just anger management. But you know, he 358 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.279 was still living a life and going to his job 359 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.119 and not showing any outward signs. He had no other 360 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.000 legal issues than sexual harassment. 361 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.160 You talk about all the reasons later on, and we'll 362 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.880 talk about a possible motive obviously, the motivation for all 363 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:42.200 of this, but you talk about the relationship with his 364 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:47.160 sister and with his father. Tell us basically what you 365 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:51.559 found from his relationships with his family. 366 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.000 Yeah, that was very interesting because he had a memory 367 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.240 that dated back to when he was five years old. 368 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.319 I mean, I don't know about you, but I tell 369 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.440 you what happened to me when I was five years old. 370 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.759 But he remembers, and it was traumatic for him, he thought. 371 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.359 But there would be things like he would recall that 372 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.359 he was on his sled and he went down the 373 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:15.000 hill when he wasn't supposed to and hit somebody, and 374 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.480 so his dad got very mad and took him home. 375 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.319 He remembers watching a movie with his mom and crying, 376 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:25.319 and his mother chastised him for crying in the middle 377 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:29.119 of a theater. He remembers hitting a kid with a 378 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.640 croquet mallet and having to apologize to the kid. So 379 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.839 there were some instances, including that one, that were a 380 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.000 little bit more dramatic his mother and father split, so 381 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.720 the divorce was probably pretty traumatic for him. He lived 382 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.079 with his mother for a short period of time and 383 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:45.920 then she decided to move and cut off all the 384 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.200 utilities when she was ready to leave the house, and 385 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.200 he saw that as a personal slight that she did 386 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:53.039 that so he wouldn't be able to use his computer, 387 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:57.319 So he basically separated himself from his mother. He was 388 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.559 close to his grandparents, who took him to them all 389 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.920 to play or bottom a bicycle. He's real close to them, 390 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.839 but eventually they died and he didn't have really anybody 391 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.759 but his sister to talk to, and so he kept 392 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:15.039 him pretty good contact with his sister. His sister actually 393 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.119 is reaching out to him more than the other way around, 394 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:20.920 but eventually he felt that she didn't understand him and 395 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.240 he separated from her. It's probably four years before the murders. 396 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:33.640 With this escalating pension and these alarming tweets that you 397 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.920 are kept abreast of, what do you decide as as 398 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:42.079 an editor, what do you decide with your team as 399 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.359 your options, and what do you elect to do to 400 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:50.200 try to diffuse this and not accelerate anything and incite 401 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.759