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True Murder with 50 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:51.479 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening in 51 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.879 nineteen oh one, Evelyn Nesbitt, a chorus girl in a 52 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.159 musical Flora Dora, dined alone with the architect Stanford White 53 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.919 in his townhouse on twenty fourth Street in New York. Nesbit, 54 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:05.680 just sixteen years old, had recently moved to the city. 55 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.000 White was forty seven and a principal in the prominent 56 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:13.800 architectural firm McKim mead and White. As the foremost architect 57 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:17.039 of his day, he was a celebrity responsible for designing 58 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.639 countless landmark buildings in Manhattan. That evening, after drinking champagne, 59 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.960 Nesbit lost consciouness consciousness and woke to find herself naked 60 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:29.080 in bed with White. Telltale spots of blood on the 61 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.439 bed sheets told her that White had raped her. She 62 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.080 told no one about the rape until several years later 63 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.520 she confided in Harry Thaw, the millionaire playboy who would 64 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.080 later become her husband. Thaw, thirsting for revenge, shot and 65 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:45.240 killed White in nineteen o six before hundreds of theatergoers 66 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:48.840 during a performance in Madison Square Garden, a building that 67 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:52.840 White had designed. The trial was a sensation that gripped 68 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.039 the nation. Most Americans agreed with Thaw that he had 69 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.520 been justified in killing White, but the district attorney expected 70 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.560 to send to the electric chair. Evelyn Nesbitt's testimony was 71 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.400 so explicit in shocking that Theodore Roosevelt himself called on 72 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.919 the newspapers not to print it verbatim. The murder of 73 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.840 White cast a long shadow. Harry Thaw later attempted suicide, 74 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.399 and Evelyn Nesbitt struggled for many years to escape an 75 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.240 addiction to cocaine. The Girl on the Velvet Swing, a 76 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.720 tale of glamour, excess and danger, is an immersive, fascinating 77 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.079 look at an American America dominated by men of outsized 78 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.560 fortunes and by the women who were their victims. The 79 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.759 book they were featuring this evening is The Girl on 80 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:39.920 the Velvet Swing, Sex, Murder and Madness at the Dawn 81 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.839 of the twentieth Century, with my special guest, journalist and 82 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.560 author and historian Simon bats Welcome to the program, and 83 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:50.040 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Simon bats. 84 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.399 Hi. 85 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.920 Dan, it's nice to be on your program and I 86 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.560 look forward to talking with you about the book. And 87 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.920 you've given a great introduction and praise see you of 88 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:01.800 the main events. 89 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.199 Thank you very much for this interview. Incredible book, incredible 90 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.040 back into history and to a time that if we 91 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.199 think some of the things that go on in today's 92 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.240 society and media is a surprising, I think we'll find 93 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:23.639 this even more surprising. Let's get right to who Stanford 94 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.879 White was. We mentioned that he was an architect and 95 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.040 he designed a Madison Square garden, But tell us who 96 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.879 Stanford White was, How old was he around this time 97 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.120 and just at the turn of the century, and who 98 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.079 was he in real terms? 99 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:40.160 He had. 100 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:46.279 Served an apprentice to an architect called Richardson, who was 101 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.040 the most famous exponent of the Romanesque style in the 102 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:53.480 United States, and White grew up in New York City, 103 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:57.000 and in eighteen seventy nine he entered into a partnership 104 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:02.480 with two other men, Les McKim and William Rutherford Meade, 105 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:07.680 and their architectural firm, McKim Mead and White ridly catered 106 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.199 to the wealthy not just of New York City, but 107 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.639 the wealthy classes of the United States, and they became 108 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:23.079 famous for designing very elaborate, beautiful buildings designed a largely 109 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.639 on the style of the Renaissance, the Italian Renaissance, and 110 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:34.199 the Spanish Renaissance. And in eighteen ninety White designed what 111 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:38.319 many considered to be his masterpiece, which is Madison Square Garden. 112 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.240 This is the second building in New York that had 113 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:46.560 the title Madison Square Garden. There have been four in total, 114 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:51.480 and the second one stood at the north east corner 115 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.959 of twenty sixth and Madison Avenue, which is right on 116 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.040 the corner of Madison Square. And that's how it gets 117 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:03.800 its name Madison Square Garden. And Wide designed Madison Square 118 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:09.480 Garden for horse shows. Horses. Nobody drove a motor car 119 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:13.560 in eighteen ninety and everybody went around in a horse 120 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.480 and buggy, and so horses were ready ubiquitous in New 121 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.040 York City, and this was designed for The building was 122 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:26.000 designed for horse horse shows, and White persuaded the backers, 123 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.600 the financial backers of the project, and this included JP Morgan. 124 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.600 White persuaded them to build a tower on Madison Square 125 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:40.319 Garden and the tower had seven apartments and White occupied 126 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.480 rented out the top of these apartments in the top 127 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.360 of the tower, and Madison Square Garden, by virtue of 128 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.319 the tower was the second tallest building in New York City. 129 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:54.279 That's not saying very much by our standards, because we're 130 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:58.319 talking about three hundred and something feet, but it was 131 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.959 a very distinctive landmark, which is exactly what White wanted. 132 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:05.759 He wanted this to be a cultural center. And inside 133 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.680 the building there was a theater, a restaurant, the main 134 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.279 auditorium where the horse shows would take place, and then 135 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:16.079 on the roof, on the flat roof, which was at 136 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:19.000 the base of the tower, during the summer, they would 137 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:22.720 have shows, usually musical comedies, for an audience of about 138 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.199 three hundred people. And this was something you couldn't do 139 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.199 nowadays because there would be too much noise from the 140 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:33.759 street traffic and also noise from planes and helicopters and 141 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.159 what have you going overhead. But in those days that 142 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.840 wasn't the case, and so you could quite recently have 143 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:45.000 these musical comedies, these plays being done on the rooftop 144 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.559 of Madison Square Garden. So it was a spectacular achievement, 145 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:51.960 and White became famous on account of it, and he 146 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.360 went on to designed many other buildings in New York 147 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.879 City and around the United States, and the firm McKim 148 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.919 mead and White is probably the most well known architectural 149 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.200 firm in the history of the United States because they 150 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:10.759 did such beautiful So, I mean, the original, the original 151 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:15.720 Pennsylvania Station, a beautiful building before he was demolished. That 152 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:21.360 building was McKim mead and White. The campus at Columbia 153 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:26.440 University uptown was mckimmead and White. New York University built 154 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.759 a campus in the Bronx that they've later abandoned, but 155 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:34.480 that campus also was mckimmead and White. So Stanford White 156 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:38.200 was very much a celebrity in New York, a man 157 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.679 about town, someone who knew everybody. Everybody knew him, and 158 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:48.159 he was extremely prominent in the city's various affairs. 159 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:56.840 You talk about his interest in his investment in various 160 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.159 theorical theatrical productions, and also that he had friendships with 161 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.279 various actresses and actors. And you talk about an actress 162 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.440 named Edna Goodrich. Well, she's a singer in the Florid 163 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:13.240 Dora part of the Sex Tet. And Evelyn born Christmas 164 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:17.200 Day near Pittsburgh. Her dad was a lawyer, and her 165 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:21.159 mother's named Florence, and she has a brother named Howard. 166 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:26.320 She's now on a Broadway stage, but she had just 167 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.080 been working in a this department store just a couple 168 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.679 of years before that. Tell us how she comes to 169 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:37.519 be in New York City and also how they come 170 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:41.480 to meet her and her mother meet Stanford White. 171 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.639 Yeah, it's a fascinating story just in itself, and the 172 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.120 show tells you a lot about New York City and 173 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:53.919 about how young girls who wanted to make the reputation 174 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:57.240 would come to New York. She grew up in Pittsburgh. 175 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.440 Her father died when she was twelve years old. The 176 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:06.200 family was plunged into poverty and moved first to Philadelphia 177 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.759 and then to New York City around nineteen hundred. I 178 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:14.120 think it was December nineteen one hundred that they've moved 179 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.679 to Philadelphia, and then in nineteen oh one they moved 180 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:23.360 to New York. And I think another thing. I mean, 181 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.039 when I'm a historian, always tries to project himself or 182 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:28.519 herself back into the past. 183 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.240 And when you do that, you. 184 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.039 Realize that the theater was extremely important for New York City. 185 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:38.840 I mean, there were theater houses everywhere. I mean, and 186 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.919 this makes a lot of sense because when you think 187 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:44.600 about it, what other forms of entertainment were there. There 188 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:48.240 was no television, obviously, there was no internet, there was 189 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.480 no radio, there was no cinema. The theatre was the 190 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:56.440 main entertainment of virtually everybody, and as a consequence, it 191 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.639 played over an outside role in New York City. And 192 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:04.240 so Evelyn comes with her mother and a younger brother 193 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:09.000 to New York. She's very attractive. She's only sixteen years old, 194 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.919 fifteen when she first arrives in the city, but in 195 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:16.639 nineteen oh one, she's sixteen years old. She's very attractive, 196 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:21.240 as I said, and her mother introduces her as an 197 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.799 artist's model, and she supports the family through the fee 198 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:27.799 that she receives as a model. 199 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:29.679 And then. 200 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.840 Her photograph starts appearing in magazines simply as a model. 201 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:41.080 She's modeling clothes and her photograph, without even really identifying her, 202 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.240 appears in the magazines and people begin to take notice 203 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.159 because of her looks, and a theatrical agent contacts the 204 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:53.399 family and gets her a place as a chorus girl 205 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.919 in the production of Flora Dora, which was a musical 206 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.879 comedy playing at the Casino Theater, and Florida was famous 207 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.279 for the Sextet, as you said, this group of six 208 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:12.399 women singers and dancers, and Evelyn Nesbitt never made it 209 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.000 to that elite group, but she was always in the 210 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.799 chorus line. And Stanford White, who was forty seven years old, 211 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.399 he was married, he had a son. His wife lived 212 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.879 out on Long Island, and Stanford White kept a house 213 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:31.960 also in New York City. But White saw her photograph 214 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.559 and he knew people in the theatrical world. He had 215 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.799 designed the Players Club, which is a club for actors 216 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:46.679 and producers and theater folk on Gramercy Park, and White 217 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.879 got an introduction through one of the Floradora singers to 218 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:53.679 Evelyn Nesbit, who was then sixteen years old, and they 219 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:59.360 first met in White's townhouse one of White's apartments on 220 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:03.519 twenty five fourth Street, and that they had luncheon with 221 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.639 the other woman, Edna Goodrich that you mentioned, and also 222 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.600 one of White's friends was their Reginald Ronalds, and the 223 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:14.840 four of them had lunch and then and then Ronalds 224 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:19.039 went away and White had swing on the fourth floor 225 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.159 of the building, a velvet swing. And we know all 226 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.679 this because Evelyn wrote writes about it later in a 227 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.799 autobiography and also testifies. 228 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:30.080 In court about the swing. 229 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.080 And it had a padded velvet seat, it had velvet 230 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.759 cords coming down from the seething and in front of 231 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:43.080 the swing, on a separate rope was a Japanese screen, 232 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.799 a paper screen, and they spent the afternoon playing on 233 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:51.639 this swing, and two women would get on one each 234 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:53.720 woman in turn would get on the swing and White 235 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.279 would push them and they would they would split the 236 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.679 paper screen. So that was their first meeting, the first introduction, 237 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:05.279 and that was sometime around the summer fall of nineteen 238 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:05.639 oh one. 239 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:10.720 You talk about that after this meeting and she was 240 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:14.840 elated to be involved with this and rubbing elbows with 241 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:18.679 celebrities and people that she admired. But you say she 242 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.080 was surprised because she really didn't get any real attention 243 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.759 from Stanford, but more so, she got attention from this ronalds. 244 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.519 So to her surprise, what did Stanford do and contact 245 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:34.039 her about? 246 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.879 Well, he after this first meeting, he got in touch 247 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.639 with Evelyn's mother, introduced himself, and Evelyn's mother was bowled 248 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.960 over by this gentleman, this very prominent New Yorker, and 249 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.240 came back to report to her daughter that this was 250 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:59.240 a fabulous man and he took concern for her, for Evelyn, 251 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.759 and and then one day and so they gradually got 252 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.200 to know each other, the mother, the daughter, the architect, 253 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:14.360 and Florence has but the mother still had friends back 254 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.120 in Pittsburgh. And one day so mentioned to Stanford White 255 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.440 that she wanted to go by to Pittsburgh for a visit, 256 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.519 and he offered to pay her train fare and give 257 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.440 her some money for expenses. And then she said, well, 258 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.080 but who's going to look after my daughter? My sixteen 259 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:33.279 year old daughter, very young, and and Stanford White stepped 260 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.320 in and said, don't worry, I'll look after her. I'll 261 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.039 make sure she doesn't get into trouble. 262 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.279 And that's that's that's this. 263 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:46.600 And then during that time when Evelyn's mother was away. 264 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:53.080 Stanford White visits Evelyn every day before she goes to 265 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:58.840 the theater for her performance, and one day he asks 266 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.399 her if she wants to have her photographs taken by 267 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:06.240 a well known photographer called Rudolph Eckermeier, and Evelyn agrees, 268 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.480 and so they spend the day in the studio, and 269 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.039 these photographs have survived and they're quite prominent on the internet. 270 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.400 They show Evelyn reclining on a polar bear rug and 271 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.640 she's dressed in a kimono. And while the photographs, just 272 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:24.640 after the photographs the session has ended, Stamford White says 273 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.759 that he's having a party the next night at his 274 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:33.920 apartment on twenty fourth Street, and he asks Evelyn if 275 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.000 she'd like to come, and she says she'd love to. 276 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.759 She'd rather much rather do that than spend her her 277 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:45.079 evening alone or her night alone in the apartment that 278 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:50.759 she had been with her mother, And so she shows up. 279 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:54.720 A floridor ends about nine o'clock and Evelyn comes down 280 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.880 at twenty fourth Street and shows up and there's nobody 281 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:03.680 there except Stamp and she's surprised, and Stanford White says, 282 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.920 don't worry about it. My friends just didn't show up, 283 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.599 and let's have dinner anyway. And so they have dinner, 284 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.039 just the two of them, and then Stanford White asks 285 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.039 Evelyn if she wants to go upstairs to see some 286 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.720 of the paintings that he collected what he was in Europe, 287 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:24.039 and that's when the famous event occurs, and Stanford White 288 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.119 takes her into a small backroom where there's a bed 289 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:32.920 and gives her this champagne. She loses consciousness almost immediately. 290 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:37.880 She feels dizzy, and when she wakes up, she finds 291 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.559 herself naked. Stanford White is lying next to her naked also, 292 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.480 and she realizes that she's been raped while she was 293 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:51.680 drugged unconscious. It's a shocking story, a shocking episode. And 294 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.559 we know all about this. None of this is made up, 295 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.519 none of this is imagined. But we know all about 296 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:01.359 this because then Evelyn testifies her about this in court, 297 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:07.079 and her testimony was reproduced verbatim by the newspapers. It 298 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.200 was quite extraordinary because any historian who does work in 299 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:15.839 that period has fourteen daily newspapers being published in New 300 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.920 York City, fourteen alone in the city, I mean, and 301 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.480 there are hundreds thousands of other newspapers around the country, so, 302 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.720 and all of these newspapers were. 303 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:27.759 Competing with each other. 304 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:33.759 So this case, when it came to trial, got enormous coverage. 305 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.799 The papers would literally devote three or four pages of 306 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.039 small type to the case, and they reprinted all the 307 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.480 testimony of verbatim, so which was very fortunate for me. 308 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.920 Of course, yes, of. 309 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:53.240 Course on us. You also say, you also include what 310 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.319 exactly he said? Once she got up, she was screaming, 311 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.920 and so what did he say? And she confronted him 312 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.759 about it? So what did he have to say about it? 313 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.119 Well, again, when people read the conversation they have in 314 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.799 the book, they ask the question, did you make this up? 315 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:10.000 And I say no. 316 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.440 And the reason I can faithfully give you the conversation 317 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.240 that they had is because she repeats it in the courtroom, 318 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.759 and she says in the courtroom, and it's reproduced in 319 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:28.480 the newspapers. And this testimony was so shocking that Theodore Roosevelt, 320 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:32.039 the President of the United States, asked his cabinet members, 321 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.160 what can we do about this shocking stuff that's being 322 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.960 printed in the newspapers? Because this is nineteen hundred, right, 323 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.039 I mean, this kind of stuff didn't appear in the newspapers. 324 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:43.599 It was regarded as something that should not be printed. 325 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:51.279 And so anyway, Stanford White, Evelyn wakes up, she finds 326 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:57.880 out that she's been raped, and she is asking Stanford 327 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.200 White about this. He kind of reassures her and says, no, 328 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.160 this sort of thing. And remember Evelyn is only sixteen 329 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.799 years old, and he reassures her, and she tells her 330 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.079 this is the sort of thing that happens all the time. 331 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:16.640 Don't worry about it. But whatever you do, don't tell anyone, 332 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:18.119 and don't tell your mother. 333 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:19.920 And I think what. 334 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.519 Was when you think about when someone is sixteen, they 335 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:30.359 can be very naive, unsuspecting, and also very willing to 336 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.799 accept the authority of adults. And my interpretation of this 337 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.039 is that's exactly what happened. I mean, And we simply 338 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:43.519 have to think about what the revelations of twenty seventeen 339 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.160 and twenty eighteen. You know, so many women, even in 340 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:51.400 the present day, didn't confide to their close friends, to 341 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.559 the relatives that they had been raped by Bill Cosby. 342 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.359 And that's so it would have been the taboo about 343 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:02.039 discussing this would have been stronger, would have been even 344 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:06.599 more potent back in nineteen hundred when Evelyn Nesbit was 345 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.920 raped by Stanford White. So it remained very much a 346 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:16.119 secret until she meets this man, Harry Thor, who later 347 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.119 becomes her husband. And that's when she first tells someone 348 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:24.000 that this event has happened. 349 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.279 Before. That happens before she meets Harry saw. You talk 350 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.880 about the friendship, what does the friendship look like after this? 351 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:37.720 And it doesn't change. 352 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.640 And I think for a lot of people, that's something 353 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.319 that people can't understand even nowadays, because what happened was 354 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:50.759 that Evelyn and Stanford White continued to see each other socially, 355 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:54.079 and she admitted in court that she would go to 356 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:59.279 his apartment alone just being with him. She accepted money 357 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.960 from him. She would send her checks every week of 358 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.200 about twenty five dollars, which was quite a lot of 359 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.680 money in those days. And so the relationship, whatever the 360 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:17.200 relationship was after the rape, the relationship continued for approximately 361 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.200 a year. They knew each other, continued seeing each other. 362 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.920 I have no idea, and nobody can know whether or 363 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:28.319 not it was a sexual relationship or any kind of 364 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.680 intimacy happened between them, or if it was purely platonic. 365 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:34.880 There's no way to know that, but we do know 366 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:40.279 that they continued to be socially together, and also we 367 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.960 know that White continued to send her money for about 368 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:46.799 a year after this occurred. 369 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:51.200 You also talk about an event where one day she 370 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.680 notices a small black book that she'd never seen before. 371 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.640 What does she find in that? What does she conclude 372 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.799 from that? Eating reading that black. 373 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:06.240 Yes, she finds she finds a list of He finds 374 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.759 lists of names of women that she whose names she recognizes, 375 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:14.359 who are or other actresses in various plays in New York. 376 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.359 And one of the names was hers. And she saw 377 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:21.359 that White had written in her birthday her birthday next 378 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:24.000 to her name, and this was the case for several 379 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.240 other of the actresses there. And I think that she 380 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.240 realized when she saw this that White was carrying on 381 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.200 the same kind of relationship with her that he had 382 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:40.000 with other women. And it's very it's it's there's not 383 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.440 many other sources because you've got to remember that this 384 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.519 was the time when all of this was taboo. Any 385 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.920 kind of mentional discussion of sex was taboo. It never 386 00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:53.119 occurred in the press or anything unless there was some 387 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:57.440 kind of sensational trial. And the only other reference I've 388 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.480 I've come across to White's behavior was in an autobiography 389 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:07.000 by Diamond Jim Brady, who was a well known banker 390 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:10.640 and financier, another man about town. He wrote his autobiography, 391 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.640 and he mentioned that White would have parties where there 392 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.079 would be young girls there. And there was actually one 393 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.680 other reference, which is a famous case, which was in 394 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.440 eighteen ninety five, the New York World published a long 395 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.880 article about a dinner party that White and many other men, 396 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.400 about twenty men had held. And it was this one 397 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.799 of these lavish dinners with lots of champagne, and at midnight, 398 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.680 the waiters brought in this enormous pie, laid it on 399 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.920 the table, and in the pie there was this young 400 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.319 girl who was about sixteen, and she was virtually naked. 401 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:54.720