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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good Eating.
Speaker 6: This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder,
Speaker 6: The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the
Speaker 6: authors that have written about them. In the mid to
Speaker 6: nineteen eight mid to late nineteen eighties, a quiet neighborhood
Speaker 6: near Tacoma, Washington, was terrorized by the violence of three men,
Speaker 6: Paul Saint Pierre, an alcoholic psychopath, his younger brother Chris,
Speaker 6: who had committed unspeakable acts to be one of the boys,
Speaker 6: and Paul's childhood friend Druggie Andrew Webb. The three beat
Speaker 6: up one man before cutting his throat on a deserted beach.
Speaker 6: They decapitated another victim, whom Paul Saint Pierre had killed,
Speaker 6: and buried his head in a bucket of concrete. Soon,
Speaker 6: the twisted triad turned on each other. Saint Pierre shot
Speaker 6: Andrew Webb and the stomach during an argument. Chris Saint
Speaker 6: Pierre called the cops. He and Webb, who survived his attack,
Speaker 6: were sentenced to life in prison. Paul Saint Pierre choked
Speaker 6: to death alone in his jail cell. The book we're
Speaker 6: featuring this evening is Headshot by my friend and journalist
Speaker 6: and author and talk show radio host and TV radio
Speaker 6: personality Burl Bear. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 6: you for greeting to this interview about Headshot.
Speaker 4: Burrow Bear. Well, hi there, Dan's great to be back
Speaker 4: on your program. Everything you stuff calling me a raconteur
Speaker 4: or wanted criminal.
Speaker 6: Well whatever you like.
Speaker 4: You know you wanted criminal.
Speaker 6: Yet, well it's probably uh probably won't be befitting you,
Speaker 6: you know, being it is either story.
Speaker 4: I must admit the book Headshots were the stranger combination
Speaker 4: of crimes and combination of individuals. And not only were
Speaker 4: the people uh strange and we'll get to them and
Speaker 4: the crimes horrific, but the court cases that uh that
Speaker 4: transpired after these murders were the phrase bob Ville news
Speaker 4: is the trial was a pig circus. I mean, there's
Speaker 4: completely as insane as the crimes prosecutorial conduct is unbelievable.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's it's great too. This this story, you have
Speaker 6: a n act for unearthing stories that have much more
Speaker 6: complexity than when you even look at it. And when
Speaker 6: you look at this it this looks like some three senseless,
Speaker 6: crazed individuals doing some bizarre, very very strange stuff. So
Speaker 6: you do really capture that as well. But like a
Speaker 6: lot of books that you've done, you really it is
Speaker 6: an examination of the judicial system too, in this particular case,
Speaker 6: and it is a great example of what could happen,
Speaker 6: and this is a great example of what does happen.
Speaker 4: So it is I've had people tell me that this
Speaker 4: book the courtroom shenanigans, scared them more than the murder.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think that's I can relate. You know,
Speaker 6: where you're you know, the equally fascinating and bizarre story
Speaker 6: continues when you get to the court case. There's no
Speaker 6: normality going on when when you get the trial or
Speaker 6: anything any easy answers or you know, there's surprises and
Speaker 6: and like you say, a fascinating examination basically by virtue
Speaker 6: of this crazy story.
Speaker 4: So of course we don't know what the story is,
Speaker 4: so I guess maybe we should start to and tell
Speaker 4: them at least part of it. You're it's you're conducting this.
Speaker 4: So where do you want to get.
Speaker 6: Well, let's start off with when this was. This is
Speaker 6: in the mid eighties, nineteen eighty four, but there's a
Speaker 6: you know before that. We're going to go back a
Speaker 6: little bit into the early eighties, you know, the really
Speaker 6: classic period of killers, I think, but let's go back
Speaker 6: to that time in a quiet neighborhood in or near Tacoma, Washington.
Speaker 6: So let's tell us where this is and tomba wash.
Speaker 4: That and what you're dealing with is and I do
Speaker 4: in the book is pretty much also the story of
Speaker 4: two fascinating families, the Saint Pierre family and the web family.
Speaker 4: Saint Pierre's mister Missus Saint Pierre both wonderful people, school teachers,
Speaker 4: and they had these two boys, Christopher Saint Pierre, Paul
Speaker 4: Saint Pierre, and I believe we had a daughter as well.
Speaker 4: And the one son, Paul was how do we put
Speaker 4: this politely, an alcoholic sociopath and a desire to kill
Speaker 4: all the time. He was in the United States Marines,
Speaker 4: and they booted him out. I guess they're afraid to
Speaker 4: kill somebody. And when he came back from the service,
Speaker 4: his brother Christopher had a good job at an auto
Speaker 4: repair place right next to the house he was living in,
Speaker 4: and he had a good life going for him. And
Speaker 4: his brother was very domineering. Shows up and says I'm
Speaker 4: moving in he would he like it or not, And
Speaker 4: being the dominant personality, he pretty much set the tone
Speaker 4: for what was going to be going on. What was
Speaker 4: going on was not to anyone's liking. I can tell
Speaker 4: you that he had an experience where he was in
Speaker 4: a supermarket and he saw someone doing something wrong, was
Speaker 4: really wrong. Paul was armed. He took out a gun
Speaker 4: and shot the fellow and that was okay in those circumstances.
Speaker 4: It was considered an actor of bravery, and he loved it.
Speaker 4: He got to shoot somebody and didn't get in trouble
Speaker 4: for it. And so after that he wanted to shoot
Speaker 4: people all the time.
Speaker 6: What exactly, It's not like you to hold back some
Speaker 6: information details. What exactly was this guy doing in the
Speaker 6: grocery store.
Speaker 4: It was so bad, you know, back in the eighties
Speaker 4: of my memories, a little lapse whether he was trying
Speaker 4: to rob the place, or something like that and came
Speaker 4: to rescue and so it was considered justifiable and actually
Speaker 4: rather heroic. And so he liked that that she was
Speaker 4: able to whip out a gun and shoot somebody. And
Speaker 4: it was just that opportunity doesn't present itself very often, no,
Speaker 4: so he kept looking shoot people, you know the old
Speaker 4: He tried and he liked it. He wanted to do
Speaker 4: it again. Life does not present opportunities for shooting people,
Speaker 4: so he created his own. However, before he got to
Speaker 4: shoot more people. We have Andrew Webb his best friend. Now, Chris,
Speaker 4: I mean, excuse me, Paul Saint Pierre is gone now.
Speaker 4: He died shortly after being arrested under the strangers the circumstances.
Speaker 4: Died from shoving pieces filled toilet paper down his own throat.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, but that's supposedly what happened while
Speaker 4: under suicide watch after having a fight with the guards. Interesting,
Speaker 4: he had it out. Now, Andrew Webb, his family is
Speaker 4: truly fascinating. It comes from a family of nine kids.
Speaker 4: His mother, this poor woman with a very diar friend
Speaker 4: of mine's grandmother. That's how I found out about the case.
Speaker 4: She was poison her grandson put rat poison in his
Speaker 4: coffee and he become terribly ill. And then she'd take
Speaker 4: care of him. That's, you know, munchause in syndrome by proxy.
Speaker 4: And she used to also beat him up. She'd kick
Speaker 4: him and beat him. And my friend was a a
Speaker 4: football player. They'd show up at school with black eyes
Speaker 4: and bruises and he said, wow, what happened to you?
Speaker 4: Man said, oh, I got into a fight. No, he
Speaker 4: didn't get into his fight. His tinmely little grandmother would
Speaker 4: beat the crap out of him, and he led her
Speaker 4: because he didn't want to hurt her. Well she was
Speaker 4: quite a disturbed woman who had been horribly abused as
Speaker 4: a child, raped by her father repeatedly. The mother took
Speaker 4: off and left her and her younger sister alone with
Speaker 4: the alcoholic, abusive father. When the father started looking at
Speaker 4: the younger sister the same way, the future of missus
Speaker 4: Webb said, listen, if you keep your hands off of her,
Speaker 4: I won't complain anymore about what you do to me.
Speaker 4: Well E, when she was eighteen, she married, got married,
Speaker 4: got to take out of there. All she wanted to
Speaker 4: do was have a nice, normal family, a good Christian family.
Speaker 4: She had nine kids, and each one of those kids,
Speaker 4: either with a few exceptions, either was a child molester,
Speaker 4: a murderer, or married a child molester hor murderer.
Speaker 6: Wow like the legacy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well multi generational incest. Originally, I had said the
Speaker 4: book that he couldn't tell who was doing who in
Speaker 4: the family without a chart and a graph of tat
Speaker 4: out because you know, imply things about some of the
Speaker 4: other people, you know, the other kids that port remained
Speaker 4: to the story, you know, the primary story. But it
Speaker 4: was quite a quite a disturbed family despite all the
Speaker 4: best intentions. And Andrew was was brain damaged because he
Speaker 4: had his head run over by the family car. That
Speaker 4: sounds because the kid was crawling behind the car and
Speaker 4: someone backed up over his head and moved so they
Speaker 4: drove the car forward. Uh. So he had his own
Speaker 4: set of problems. Andrew got in a lot of trouble,
Speaker 4: a lot of They had a lot of paranoil, a
Speaker 4: lot of acts of violence.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: You know, someone sold his marijuana plants. He took a
Speaker 4: gun and went and got him back. And he was
Speaker 4: in trouble. And the cops said, listen, if you can
Speaker 4: stay out of trouble for ninety days, you don't have
Speaker 4: to go to prison, so don't get in any trouble.
Speaker 4: Well got in trouble. He was at a party with
Speaker 4: Paul and Christopher and all these guys, and they decided
Speaker 4: that this innocent kid, Damon Wells, had been plotting to
Speaker 4: steal from them, which he hadn't, but Andrew was paranoid.
Speaker 4: So they took Damon out to a part Discovery part,
Speaker 4: took away his shoes and we're going to make him
Speaker 4: walk home. And he said, I'm going to tell on you.
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell the cops what you did. Well,
Speaker 4: not wanting to get in trouble, Andrew whipped out a
Speaker 4: knife and slashed Damon's throat.
Speaker 6: Yeah and three months ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know how to keep from getting in trouble.
Speaker 4: I'll kill him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So this poor innison kid and his throat slit, and
Speaker 4: the three guys stand there and watch him die, and
Speaker 4: then they bury the body up and up in the mountains.
Speaker 4: Not long afterwards, another murder takes place when Paul Saint
Speaker 4: Pierre they go to a rock concert. They see this
Speaker 4: nice kid, Johnny Cord, and buye him over the house
Speaker 4: with some pizza. Well, Andrew and Chris go out to
Speaker 4: get I think some pizza and beer. John's there alone
Speaker 4: with Paul. When they get back, the guys are John's
Speaker 4: on the floor with a bullet through his head, and
Speaker 4: Paul's going, well, I thought I felt threatened, so I
Speaker 4: shot him. They took him.
Speaker 6: What was the what was the threat from the what
Speaker 6: was the why did they invite him to the house
Speaker 6: in the first place?
Speaker 4: Just just for fun?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 4: They were having a good time at the concert and
Speaker 4: there was this nice guy. Maybe they kne him from
Speaker 4: school or something and invited him over. Okay, and they
Speaker 4: wanted quite dead. Now, this is the fellow that they
Speaker 4: they took up and they buried, not not too far
Speaker 4: from the other fellow they buried. And then later Paul
Speaker 4: thinks to himself, for if they ever dig up this
Speaker 4: body and they get a bolt out of their head,
Speaker 4: they'll be able to match that boat by gun.
Speaker 6: Right, So what do they do?
Speaker 4: Well, instead of throwing away the gun, they go back up,
Speaker 4: dig up the body, chop the head off, put the
Speaker 4: head in the bucket of concrete, and throw the bucket
Speaker 4: the Pewau River. Eventually the bucket is found with their head.
Speaker 4: They put their head back on the body and discovered
Speaker 4: the poor fellow didn't die from getting shot. The bolt
Speaker 4: had gone through his cheek and simply broken his John
Speaker 4: knocked him out. They could have taken him to the hospital,
Speaker 4: but he came to before they buried him. So Paul
Speaker 4: stabbed him seventeen or eighteen times. And then, I mean,
Speaker 4: the whole thing is insane, absolutely insane. Yeah, neither one
Speaker 4: of these homicides make any sense whatsoever. Now to continue
Speaker 4: with this insanity and ridiculousness, because this sounds like you
Speaker 4: couldn't find a motive in this. Really there wasn't almost No,
Speaker 4: it's just motive list.
Speaker 6: And the other thing too, we didn't talk about too much.
Speaker 6: He's talk about Andrew in the pot. But Andrew's got
Speaker 6: a little bit more of a drug problem than marijuana, right.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, he drinks continually. He also takes large amounts
Speaker 4: of psychedelics. He's married, by the way, Yeah, actually were
Speaker 4: who married him, and a couple of kids, and the
Speaker 4: wife is fighting. Andrew curled up under the sink or
Speaker 4: in the laundry basket. Uh, he had some real, real problems. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and he also spoke unfaithful.
Speaker 6: He was unfaithful.
Speaker 4: That's why she finally kicked him out.
Speaker 6: Okay, Now how does it Now? This is in a
Speaker 6: short period of time, like you say, and there they
Speaker 6: bury these couple of bodies and there's real no motive.
Speaker 6: They're not on a like a crime spree by intention
Speaker 6: or anything. Now, how does it get to the point
Speaker 6: and why are they why are these two guys fighting,
Speaker 6: and and how does Andrew get you know, how did
Speaker 6: they get shot? So to us about about the pounder
Speaker 6: gets shot? And what and how long is it after
Speaker 6: these murders and what do they do after these murders
Speaker 6: and the police what what do the police idea on this?
Speaker 4: Police have no idea these murders have even taken place, right,
Speaker 4: they've there have been a couple of missing person reports,
Speaker 4: but there's no The police don't know that anyone's been
Speaker 4: murdered because they've taken these bodies and they buried him.
Speaker 4: Everyone's kept their mouths shut. Paul's looking for more excuses
Speaker 4: to shoot more people. He confides to some of his buddies.
Speaker 4: You know. He goes and spends one night with a
Speaker 4: one friend of his and we start talking about how
Speaker 4: much he likes shooting people. The other guy spends all
Speaker 4: night long and sleeping with one eye open. Paul's going
Speaker 4: to shoot him. What happened was between he and Andrew's typical.
Speaker 4: They got into a fight over money, you know, fifteen dollars,
Speaker 4: ten dollars, something like that. And Andrews says to Paul,
Speaker 4: what are you going to do? Paul? Shoot me? Well,
Speaker 4: that was kind of the wrong thing to say, because
Speaker 4: what the heck of an idea? Paul without a gun
Speaker 4: and proceeds to shoot Andrew, doesn't kill him, but puts
Speaker 4: a bull through him. Where's he fot?
Speaker 6: Where's he shooting him? Shoots him in the stomach, and
Speaker 6: how dangerous is it where he shot him? Well, then
Speaker 6: if he could have died except for the fact one
Speaker 6: of the fellows is there or one of the other
Speaker 6: buddies runs down the street into a local tavern intos,
Speaker 6: someone called the called the cops. Someone has been shot,
Speaker 6: and you get an ambulance there and you get the police.
Speaker 6: And that's when Christopher Saint Pierre decides it's time to
Speaker 6: expose everything that's going on, and he tells the cops everything.
Speaker 6: He shows him where the bodies are buried. Now we've
Speaker 6: got a big deal going on here. Now we've got
Speaker 6: two homicides. We've got three guys, Chris, Paul, Andrew, and
Speaker 6: the prosecutor. One of the lamest statements ever made, and
Speaker 6: it gets worse. Says, the first one through the door
Speaker 6: gets the deal. He actually says, well, first one through
Speaker 6: the door was Andrew.
Speaker 4: Yep. Well, of course, yeah. And he does something that,
Speaker 4: in a strange way, I have to admire him for
Speaker 4: he makes a deal with the prosecutor that if they
Speaker 4: will take the death penalty off the table, if they'll
Speaker 4: take life in prison without parole off the table, he
Speaker 4: will testify against Paul and Chris that they were involved
Speaker 4: in the murder of Dame new Wells. He gets up
Speaker 4: on the witness stand. They've already signed the deal, signed
Speaker 4: off on the deal, and he gets up and he
Speaker 4: tells the truth. He says, I'm so, I'm one hundred
Speaker 4: percent of responsible. I'm the only one who killed him.
Speaker 4: I did it because I didn't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 4: They had. They did not know what was going to happen.
Speaker 4: They weren't expecting it. I'm the one who did it.
Speaker 4: He said, well, why did you say you testify? I
Speaker 4: guess I said, that's what you get the deal, and.
Speaker 6: They upheld the deal. Well it was the way you
Speaker 6: know that.
Speaker 4: They usually they don't do the deal until after you testify. Well,
Speaker 4: they'd done the deal before he testified. Uh. In fact,
Speaker 4: Andrews had a prison now you know. So it's Chris
Speaker 4: Saint Pierre.
Speaker 6: Both give you give the update on them in their
Speaker 6: in their high school reunion that they they went to
Speaker 6: the reunion.
Speaker 4: The strange it was that uh, first of the first
Speaker 4: Christopher Saint Pierre was was found. It was found guilty
Speaker 4: in both these murders, and on appeal he was he wasn't.
Speaker 4: He was only found guilty of hating and betting like
Speaker 4: and burying the body on the second one. On the
Speaker 4: first one because he didn't stop but he stood there.
Speaker 4: I mean, uh, you know, Andrews slashes his kids throat
Speaker 4: and Chris didn't call the cops. He didn't run away
Speaker 4: and get an ambulance. He stood there and watched uh die.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was overturned because he had argued that he
Speaker 6: didn't have a chance to confront his witnesses against him.
Speaker 6: And so but that of course, when you when you
Speaker 6: have an appeal and you're looking at the rest of
Speaker 6: your life or a death penalty. You know they scrutinize
Speaker 6: those cases a little bit more obviously.
Speaker 4: I mean, as one of the attorneys said, I know
Speaker 4: the book in front of me. He said, this is Hey, guys, it.
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Speaker 4: In the United States of America, we do have a
Speaker 4: thing called the Bill of Rights, and the trial is
Speaker 4: supposed to take place in the courtroom down the press,
Speaker 4: and you are supposed to people to confront your accuser.
Speaker 6: Now, would I want to go back just a little
Speaker 6: bit for our audience where I need I would like
Speaker 6: you to explain how because this is really the crucial
Speaker 6: thing in this story is how on earth or why
Speaker 6: on earth did this guy who doesn't fit this profile
Speaker 6: at all, Chris Saint Pierre, Why does he suddenly decide well,
Speaker 6: I think this is the time to admit to a
Speaker 6: bunch of things here.
Speaker 4: Because Chris was a nice guy. He wasn't nuts like
Speaker 4: his brother. He had no interest in killing people all
Speaker 4: the time. He wasn't I mean, he had a job,
Speaker 4: He had a career, you know, a job path ahead
Speaker 4: of him. He wasn't you know, I mean he was
Speaker 4: He had a very good reputation all the way around
Speaker 4: the influence. I mean had an older brother, however, who
Speaker 4: was a very dominant personality, and he could be in
Speaker 4: the shadow of his brother. The other book, I wrote,
Speaker 4: mom said kill where the little girl would do whatever
Speaker 4: mom said. And you know she was a you know,
Speaker 4: straight a student, sports star. Everyone loved her. But if
Speaker 4: mom said do something, you did it. And if mom
Speaker 4: said kill somebody, you do it. You don't argue. And
Speaker 4: in this case, it was the brother who was the
Speaker 4: dominant personality, and he moved into the house and he
Speaker 4: really took over and things were just out of hand.
Speaker 4: I think Chris would have gone to the cops sooner
Speaker 4: if he could have got up the wherewith all of
Speaker 4: the gumption to do it. And people who knew him,
Speaker 4: who knew the family, to this day, they said they
Speaker 4: can't believe that Chris could have ever been involved in
Speaker 4: this stuff. I mean, it was just so out of character,
Speaker 4: you know for him to he kind of like was
Speaker 4: swept away on this tide of events and the insanity
Speaker 4: of his brother. He wound up spending more time in
Speaker 4: prison than anybody.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, let thats why was My next question is
Speaker 6: going to answer that why did the police not just
Speaker 6: offer Chris a deal instead of throwing it out there
Speaker 6: and then having Andrew walk in and benefit from this,
Speaker 6: because that's what everyone seemed to be outraged by, that
Speaker 6: this Andrew guy is the guy that really did you know,
Speaker 6: Paul got his Chris, Like I said, they seem to
Speaker 6: focus on him or he was the Yeah, the.
Speaker 4: Police don't make the deal. The uh, maybe they do
Speaker 4: up there, but down here in the United States of America,
Speaker 4: it's the it's the prosecutor. That prosecutor had a whole
Speaker 4: lot of read the book, and some of the things
Speaker 4: that go on reached the point where the judge in
Speaker 4: the courtroom throws a fit, says, this trial is going
Speaker 4: to be e c Henrick headache covered four hundred and
Speaker 4: twenty eight. Turns out the storms out of the courtroom
Speaker 4: couldn't take it anymore. It was just driving the judge
Speaker 4: crazy the thing that the prosecutor was doing. So there's
Speaker 4: the prosecutors that first one through the door makes the deal,
Speaker 4: and the first one into the prosecutor's office was an
Speaker 4: attorney to make a deal with Andrew Webb. And that's
Speaker 4: the way it worked. Chris. And here's a real strange one.
Speaker 4: I don't know how much you got into this in
Speaker 4: the book. But when Christopher had well, he was sentenced
Speaker 4: to you know, a thirtain amount of time in prison
Speaker 4: for various you know these various crime, instruction of justice, whatever,
Speaker 4: and he was posted to services his time concurrently. You know, it
Speaker 4: was all at once. Not why I forget it. Well,
Speaker 4: it came time for him to get out of prison
Speaker 4: and they didn't let him out, and they said, oh, no,
Speaker 4: you're supposed to serve it consecutively. I don't know, I'm not.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's no secret what the sentence was. And
Speaker 4: they go, oh yeah, sure, what's the sentencing documents? Every
Speaker 4: single notarized, stamped, official copy of his sentencing has disappeared
Speaker 4: off the face of the earth. Well, there no copy
Speaker 4: of it exists anywhere in any court records. Now, I
Speaker 4: had copies of everything when I was doing the book.
Speaker 4: I had attorneys getting hold of me saying, Burrow, can
Speaker 4: you find it. I even tried to track down the
Speaker 4: there's a TV station that videotaped the sentencing, and I
Speaker 4: found out that those tapes had been erased. There was
Speaker 4: nothing left. They brought him the judge and the court
Speaker 4: were porter to testify and the judge said, I sentenced
Speaker 4: him concurrently. Well, I'm sorry, judge, that's not good enough.
Speaker 4: We need the official documents, all of which have vanished. Uh.
Speaker 4: It was just bizarre. But that's not the strangest part
Speaker 4: the strange.
Speaker 6: The strangest part was that. Tell us the strangest part.
Speaker 4: The strangest part is when Paul Saint Pierre was arrested,
Speaker 4: it was very obvious that he was nuts, that he
Speaker 4: was not at that point in any mental condition to
Speaker 4: stand trial. It was very clear. And the you know,
Speaker 4: the who determines these things that this guy he cannot
Speaker 4: aid in his own defense. He kn't comprehend what's going on.
Speaker 4: This guy is severely mentally damaged, mentally compromised.
Speaker 6: Why what do you think that was? That there was
Speaker 6: talk of you talk about and I mean I can
Speaker 6: just imagine you put in isolation as well, and there
Speaker 6: was a reason for that. So tell us why it
Speaker 6: seemed like this guy didn't really improve mentally when he
Speaker 6: was incarcerated at all.
Speaker 4: Well? No, Well, see here's what happened is you had
Speaker 4: the two brothers, Chris and Paul. Chris was should we say,
Speaker 4: mentally Okay, Paul had severely diminished capacity already. I mean
Speaker 4: the Marines tossed him out. I mean he was dysfunctional.
Speaker 4: He was not a functional human being, had severe mental problems,
Speaker 4: violence being only one aspect of it. So the prosecution, however,
Speaker 4: wanted to try the two brothers together at the same
Speaker 4: trial at the same time. However, it was ruled Listen,
Speaker 4: this Paul is mentally unstable. He can't stand trial. You know,
Speaker 4: he has to go off. We're going to send him
Speaker 4: to a mentalist institution for ninety days of evaluation and
Speaker 4: testing to see, you know what condition his condition is
Speaker 4: in ye as, So that means the brothers will be
Speaker 4: tried separately. Now, he'd been in this spenal institution apparently previously,
Speaker 4: and the doctor there was familiar with him. They send
Speaker 4: him down there for ninety days. How long is he there?
Speaker 4: Less than twenty four hours. The doctor who knows him
Speaker 4: is mysteriously pulled off of the case. Another doctor who's
Speaker 4: not board certified, who'd never seen Paul before in his life,
Speaker 4: is suddenly put on the case. Rubber Stampson he's just
Speaker 4: fine to stand trial, and immediately sends him back. There's
Speaker 4: something really weird going on here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can't a trial.
Speaker 4: They get the original doctor, the one who knew the patient,
Speaker 4: up on the stand and said, why did you not
Speaker 4: examine his patient, who you had all the records on.
Speaker 4: You're examined before. Why weren't you the doctor to do this?
Speaker 4: He goes, you'll have to ask the prosecutor. He's the
Speaker 4: one who had me pulled off.
Speaker 6: Well that's strong testimony.
Speaker 4: So there you go. There was some effort to manipulate
Speaker 4: the entire situation to have someone who was not competent
Speaker 4: declared competent so they could try them together. Defense attorney
Speaker 4: was so outraged by this that he ran against the
Speaker 4: prosecutor in the next in the election to be the
Speaker 4: new prosecutor, and he won. Wow, so the defense attorney
Speaker 4: became the prosecutor.
Speaker 6: Seez, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just I mean, that's ways you're crazier
Speaker 4: and crazier.
Speaker 6: Yea, they want to the two.
Speaker 4: Ask a good question depends on who you asked. There
Speaker 4: were three trials, mistrials, gragics, you know, recusing himself from
Speaker 4: the case. Storming out goes all the way to the
Speaker 4: Supreme court, State Supreme Court. So when I went when
Speaker 4: I was investigating this, and I went to the Washington
Speaker 4: State Supreme Court Library where they had all this material,
Speaker 4: boxes and boxes and boxes, and this is going to
Speaker 4: be a horrific thing to try to unravel. Sure, I said, uh,
Speaker 4: I'd like some of this, and they said, well, what
Speaker 4: would you like. I looked at them and I said,
Speaker 4: I want absolutely everything we've never had anybody has for
Speaker 4: absolutely everything before it about en giant boxes and material
Speaker 4: which they loaded up and put into my car in Olympia, Washington,
Speaker 4: And uh, well, I'll tell you that. You know anyone
Speaker 4: who says, oh, this is one of those books where
Speaker 4: all they do is they put a bunch of Troyal transcripts,
Speaker 4: And anytime I read that, I want to go find
Speaker 4: the person who wrote that review and bonk them over
Speaker 4: the noggin. Probably one of the hardest things to do
Speaker 4: when writing a true crime book and very well awareeness yourself,
Speaker 4: is to take any type of court document and turn
Speaker 4: it into any kind of understandable narrative to put in
Speaker 4: the book. Yeah, and especially when you're dealing with three
Speaker 4: trials and appeal to the State Supreme Court, you know,
Speaker 4: all that stuff can be really dry, and some people
Speaker 4: find it dry. No matter what it is. I mean,
Speaker 4: people who don't care how things work, people who only
Speaker 4: want the blood and the guts. Oh gee, now we're
Speaker 4: into a trial. Do we have to read about the trial?
Speaker 4: You know, maybe this wouldn't be their favorite book. But
Speaker 4: people who really want to know what the hell goes on?
Speaker 4: You know, it's like law and order. They have to
Speaker 4: know that TV show a lot or Yeah, there's law
Speaker 4: and then there's order. You know, sometimes the order is
Speaker 4: not that orderly and atular it's the law. It's a
Speaker 4: law and disorder.
Speaker 6: I think, you know, I think a lot of people
Speaker 6: read true crime. Maybe they get they get interested because
Speaker 6: I don't think it's the blood and guts guys, Because
Speaker 6: I think the blood and guts, I think a sensational
Speaker 6: story with a real interesting psychopath and then a case
Speaker 6: that's interesting. I think the true crime fan and you
Speaker 6: have true crime fans, a lot of them. I think
Speaker 6: what they recognize that that there are interesting trials as well.
Speaker 6: There are some trials that just you know, just by
Speaker 6: virtue of the way they are, they're a little you know,
Speaker 6: more clear cut. But there are some cases that just
Speaker 6: like this one very bizarre case all the way through
Speaker 6: right to the very end. It's I mean, that's that's
Speaker 6: what's so insane about it, you know. And when I
Speaker 6: present cases to my editor at that time, my primary
Speaker 6: editor on the book was the brilliant Karen Haas, who
Speaker 6: is no longer with Kensdy and I think it's actually
Speaker 6: with Barnes and Noble in New York, or Michael Hamilton,
Speaker 6: a chief executive editor at Kensington.
Speaker 4: Publishing who I work with right now. I will submit
Speaker 4: cases to say how about this one, And either they'll say, yeah, no,
Speaker 4: it's too much of a smoking gun, easy to tell
Speaker 4: what's going on, or it's not, you know, it's it
Speaker 4: has to have these certain elements. Well in this case,
Speaker 4: you're looking at it and going, oh my god, the
Speaker 4: weirdest you know, Well, you got a bet.
Speaker 6: Kensington's a real pioneer of like and this is part
Speaker 6: of your book too that a lot of people have
Speaker 6: said and I and I kind of agree with it too,
Speaker 6: because Kensington for years has put Pinnacle has put out
Speaker 6: books in thirteen shocking photos.
Speaker 4: This one has the most shocking photos I've ever had
Speaker 4: in the book.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you know, so coming from the guy who's
Speaker 6: who's been shocked, they're pretty shocking. Yeah, you wouldn't.
Speaker 4: In fact, the photos for that book originally were going
Speaker 4: to be selected by Karen Hush, who was on the case,
Speaker 4: And I don't know who selected them, but had I
Speaker 4: been selecting them, I would have been a little more judicial.
Speaker 4: I mean, there really are these really are shocking photos.
Speaker 4: In fact, a friend of mine today said, you had
Speaker 4: a female I saw at the book in the bookstore
Speaker 4: and I opened it up and the first thing I
Speaker 4: saw was a decapitated body that had nightmares all night.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you, I got a book for you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: just don't look at the pictures. Yeah, you know. And
Speaker 4: it's different to how the families react to that sort
Speaker 4: of thing. Some people are very upset that the photograph
Speaker 4: of their loved one is in a book, you know,
Speaker 4: it's looking horrible. Then there are others, such as in
Speaker 4: my book A Broken Doll, where this little seven year
Speaker 4: old girl was raped and murdered. There's a photo when
Speaker 4: they're ever decomposed bodies that they found, and the parents
Speaker 4: wanted that picture in there. They wanted people to know
Speaker 4: what happened to their daughter. Yeah, you know, that's entirely
Speaker 4: different mindset. It just depends, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, you know, the thing is a lot of
Speaker 6: the a lot of the well, almost all the books
Speaker 6: that you had, you had access to some, if not all,
Speaker 6: the key players, some very very crucial players. And you've
Speaker 6: got even in this book here, you had access to
Speaker 6: the ex wife and then the sister in law. So
Speaker 6: you've got come you came close to a lot. You
Speaker 6: had access to a lot of people. And I think
Speaker 6: that's another interesting aspect too, is the because you have
Speaker 6: that trust as a journalist, you have that background with
Speaker 6: your your true crime record, your Edgar Reward winning author.
Speaker 4: You know, I mean, I was. I was discussing this
Speaker 4: with one of the guests on on I Show, the
Speaker 4: nice lady who knows about everything, especially about Elliott and nests.
Speaker 4: The woman are useder the Court TV Crime Library and
Speaker 4: so she knows about it virtually every case. And she
Speaker 4: was saying, like when the big networks go and I said,
Speaker 4: Gretavan's listen, or someone's going to go in and interview someone.
Speaker 4: It's like led Zeppelin arriving on tour. They come in
Speaker 4: with these giant buses and the satellite decision. They're shoving
Speaker 4: microphones in people's faces and people who really know stuff
Speaker 4: they run and hide.
Speaker 6: You know. Yeah, yeah, but if something you.
Speaker 4: Know guy or woman or whatever, her me or you
Speaker 4: who just goes in and kind I asks around and
Speaker 4: builds a relationship and wants to tell the real story
Speaker 4: and we'll sit down at the kitchen table and just talk.
Speaker 4: We're going to get stuff that they're never gonna get.
Speaker 6: That's true. That's true, And it's it's also based on
Speaker 6: how much you already know about You're not asking dumb questions.
Speaker 6: Nothing can turn off a person more than ill informed questions, right, So,
Speaker 6: and you've probably been asked a few of them yourself.
Speaker 4: So you know, where do you have you're dis checking radio?
Speaker 4: Where do you buy your records of my favorites? The
Speaker 4: strangest story I ever heard of freshiel journalist asked was
Speaker 4: the night John Lennon was killed. Ed Copple got rattled
Speaker 4: and a asked rolled over vera, do you think the
Speaker 4: death of John Lennon will really impact a possible Beatles reugion?
Speaker 6: Ah?
Speaker 4: I mean even the great ones, couldn't you know, under
Speaker 4: pressure occasionally ask a peculiar question.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's I didn't know that one.
Speaker 4: That's good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess you could get Yeah, amazing. Now you
Speaker 6: add in this This is for people that don't know.
Speaker 6: This book was originally released in October I believe of
Speaker 6: two thousand and one, and now Pinnacle because of demand
Speaker 6: and because it's it's just a great book and a
Speaker 6: story that is timeless. Uh, they've read or and there's
Speaker 6: probably other reasons as well, they put out this. This
Speaker 6: is a reissue of this, and you've added some material
Speaker 6: in terms of like you say, Andrew Webb got out
Speaker 6: in two thousand and seven, Uh, tell us what that
Speaker 6: edition that you wrote and the afterward will tell us
Speaker 6: really basically the differences between the books and what you
Speaker 6: sort of added in terms of this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't Well, there's the there isn't much difference
Speaker 4: in the primary text. There is an update of several
Speaker 4: thousand words at the end where it's what's happened between
Speaker 4: then and now? What happened to Andrew Webb. You know
Speaker 4: Andrew while he was in prison. One of the arguments
Speaker 4: for letting him out, which his sister was against, is that,
Speaker 4: you know, Andrew found Jesus in prison. I don't know
Speaker 4: what Jesus was charged with, but he found Jesus in
Speaker 4: prison and he brought a lot of people to the Lord,
Speaker 4: and there were people who were testifying on his behalf
Speaker 4: from the prison staff, saying, you know, he's such a
Speaker 4: great Christian, we should let him out. And his sister said,
Speaker 4: if he's doing such a wonderful prison ministry, perhaps his
Speaker 4: best he stay there.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, finally, or as he was released, because he was
Speaker 4: such an exemplary prisoner and he found Jesus in prison
Speaker 4: and that's exactly where he left him. Yeah, he dropped.
Speaker 4: He dropped the you know, I mean, that's a nice
Speaker 4: gambit when you're behind bars, but you know, being an
Speaker 4: actor Christians outside of prison is is it quite the
Speaker 4: wedge that it is when you're on the inside. Much
Speaker 4: to his credit, he did manage to get several degrees
Speaker 4: while behind bars. And he always had an interest in
Speaker 4: Nordic religions, even back back Odin and all that sort
Speaker 4: of stuff. He wrote a very very well reviewed book.
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Speaker 4: Northern Uh, Northern Religions had formed. Actually there's a website.
Speaker 4: It's called Odin's Aire or something, and he formed a
Speaker 4: nonprofit organization basically uh, using Nordic myths, Nordic faith, the
Speaker 4: old Nordic religions, uh, in a positive way for people
Speaker 4: maybe who were in prison who didn't want to become
Speaker 4: Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever. You know. I
Speaker 4: don't know how well that's working for him, but it was.
Speaker 4: I was always an interest of his. But it just
Speaker 4: goes to so that that particular personality type that's gonna
Speaker 4: you know, use something. I mean, he was great at
Speaker 4: being a Christian missionary in prison. Outside Boom changed it,
Speaker 4: you know, went off in a different direction, but one
Speaker 4: that actually uh was shall we say beneficial to his image. Sure, uh,
Speaker 4: and he started a nonprofit, he's done angry management classes,
Speaker 4: you know, And I'm in no position to pass any
Speaker 4: sort of judgment on you know, as long as he's
Speaker 4: not doing that, as one of his kids says, you know,
Speaker 4: as long as he's not he's not killing anybody, he's
Speaker 4: not violent, he's not doing home invasions, he's not doing
Speaker 4: any of those things.
Speaker 6: That you know, it's a it's a somewhat. You know,
Speaker 6: he's turned himself around to at least to a great degree,
Speaker 6: so you know, that's beneficial rights.
Speaker 4: It's all relative. You know, is he's killing anybody, No,
Speaker 4: is he breaking to their home with shotguns?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 4: Is he committing any crime? Is no, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: but anything beyond that you just have to say, well,
Speaker 4: and everyone's got their thing, you know, Christopher, but he
Speaker 4: did go ahead.
Speaker 6: But but he was he uh see. The thing is
Speaker 6: you think, well, you know, he would be rewarded somewhat
Speaker 6: for testifying for the prosecution, but as you talk about
Speaker 6: in the book, he really.
Speaker 4: Just he made fools of the prosecutions. They were very
Speaker 4: angry about that.
Speaker 6: He doublecross them completely.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, he did, which but I say he
Speaker 4: double across the prosecution, but it was one of the
Speaker 4: few ethical things he did. He was just he played them.
Speaker 4: But when he got on the stand, he told the
Speaker 4: truth pretty much. I mean, he did make the other
Speaker 4: two fellows. He stabbed the dead guy so they could
Speaker 4: so they wouldn't rat. You know, now we're all in
Speaker 4: it together. But no one knew he was going to
Speaker 4: All they were going to do is make the kid
Speaker 4: walk home without his shoes on until Andrew flipped out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well it was honorable. I mean, they had
Speaker 6: they tried to be honorable among each other, amongst each other,
Speaker 6: so I guess that's what this was on the stand.
Speaker 4: And you know, you know, the whole thing is crazy.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, is that you know, they may
Speaker 4: be out of prison if they were in prison. Paul
Speaker 4: of course, had died almost as soon as he'd got
Speaker 4: in prison. Adam and a suicide washing. They apparently weren't
Speaker 4: watching very closely that he was murdered. But the people
Speaker 4: that were killed, Johnny Cord and Damon Wells, are both
Speaker 4: still dead. You know, there's nothing's going to change that,
Speaker 4: and there was no reason for them to have been
Speaker 4: uh But actually I say, one reason I write these
Speaker 4: these books, is I try to elevate the victim's death
Speaker 4: to the level of sacrifice. You know, they didn't die
Speaker 4: in vain that you know, what we can learn from
Speaker 4: this case and what happened to them, how it could
Speaker 4: have been prevented. There could have been all sorts of
Speaker 4: interventions all along the way on with Paul, with Andrew
Speaker 4: to you know, to whatever extent it was. I mean,
Speaker 4: these these were avoidable deaths. They didn't have to happen, right,
Speaker 4: if they would have, if they would have died fighting
Speaker 4: for their country, they would have gotten posthumous metals, you know,
Speaker 4: but they didn't.
Speaker 6: But you're also exposing the judicial system in this with
Speaker 6: this particular case, to say, listen, this is regardless of
Speaker 6: whether these guys are not worthy of much, all three
Speaker 6: of them really, I mean Chris to a lesser extent.
Speaker 6: But of course, when you're accessory to murder, you're a murder, right,
Speaker 6: you know. But so, but the thing is is the
Speaker 6: the due process was not given to these guys, or
Speaker 6: Chris or or like you say, Paul was a psychopath.
Speaker 6: But it seems oddly, you know, just at the face,
Speaker 6: it seems like a slap in the face. Yeah, he
Speaker 6: died on a toilet rope.
Speaker 4: Toilet paper, on filled toilet paper, and suicide. Ninety days
Speaker 4: of evaluation, and they pulled the doctor off, bringing someone
Speaker 4: else who didn't read any of the material. Rubbers stamped
Speaker 4: him fine to stand trial and sent him back. I mean,
Speaker 4: there was something obviously horribly wrong there. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: not too similar to in Fatal Beauty, where the way
Speaker 4: they got Ronda Glover declared competence stand trial by telling
Speaker 4: her that if it's dangerous to talk about your strange delusions,
Speaker 4: because I could get your lawyer killed, So don't mention
Speaker 4: that stuff. She was everybody's nuts when she went to trials.
Speaker 4: She was when they said she was incompetent.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the thing is, it's odd because it just
Speaker 6: must be the zeal for convictions rather than they must
Speaker 6: really see this. You know, these have to go to
Speaker 6: a mental institution in indefinite state as a real failure,
Speaker 6: because like I say, you know, in a different country
Speaker 6: it would be everybody would be fine with that. These
Speaker 6: prosecutors are over zealous in terms of that's why you
Speaker 6: have almost no insanity. Yeah, you know, I think no
Speaker 6: decisions that involve insane people where clearly there's some seriously
Speaker 6: mentally ill.
Speaker 4: As you know, there's a difference between being mentally ill
Speaker 4: and being insane. Insanity is a legal term, not a
Speaker 4: medical one. And the one of the big problems is
Speaker 4: faced by not just in the United States, I'm sure
Speaker 4: Canada's going through Europe as well, is that the assumptions
Speaker 4: that we have made for law, order and justice in
Speaker 4: our society are based on assumptions from the seventeen to
Speaker 4: eighteen hundreds that science is proving incorrect. Well, the primary
Speaker 4: ones being is that people know this hypothetical right from wrong.
Speaker 4: They know the effect of deeds, they know consequences for actions,
Speaker 4: that there's standards of behavior. Well, yes, if you're playing
Speaker 4: with a full deck. The majority, according to a Canadian
Speaker 4: study that I read that might be in that book
Speaker 4: or one of my others, to eighty percent of people
Speaker 4: in prison in Canada have FASD fetal alcohol syndrome disorder.
Speaker 4: And if you have FASD, you do not see the
Speaker 4: linkage between deeds and consequences. You tend to be impulsive.
Speaker 4: You can that common sense factor of well, g everybody knows. No,
Speaker 4: if you have brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome, you
Speaker 4: don't know that. Well, you know, I mean it's here. Well,
Speaker 4: g if we what do we do? Do we give?
Speaker 4: You know, you can actually, if it's expensive, you could
Speaker 4: bring in people when they're arrested, give them a cat
Speaker 4: scan or an MRI and see if they're brain damaged. Now,
Speaker 4: under the law, if they're brain damaged and can't function,
Speaker 4: you can't. Probably maybe there'll be an institution for the
Speaker 4: rest of their life, longer than they'd be if they
Speaker 4: were convicted. But no one will to do that. No
Speaker 4: one wants to run an MRI or a cat scan
Speaker 4: on someone's brain when they come in because it's too
Speaker 4: damn expensive and we're just going to find out that
Speaker 4: the majority of the people were arresting for violent crimes
Speaker 4: are damaged. Well, you know.
Speaker 6: I think what you're seeing though, is at least in
Speaker 6: terms of the public, and the public doesn't dictate what
Speaker 6: the law is or changes to the law, but it
Speaker 6: has an influence definitely when there are cases that are
Speaker 6: high profile and there are people that are outraged and
Speaker 6: people that are very vocal. But I think what happens
Speaker 6: in Canada is completely different in that we seem to
Speaker 6: have a rush to excuse killers and even the guy
Speaker 6: that I told you about that beheaded the guy on
Speaker 6: the Greyhound bus and cannibalize the guy.
Speaker 4: The data they're sound healthy.
Speaker 6: This guy was still spoken about by the doctor as
Speaker 6: he responding to the medication, and we use those terms
Speaker 6: like chemical castration, and we talk about the wonder drugs
Speaker 6: that no one actually knows. I don't see. I've never
Speaker 6: reviewed any of these stats to say, yeah, you know
Speaker 6: what those things really do work. To take a person
Speaker 6: that is a is a psychopathic killer or an insane
Speaker 6: killer and then render them harmless with medication is what
Speaker 6: this guy is saying. Will happen with this insane cannibal
Speaker 6: killer on the bus?
Speaker 4: Well? Is this what I'm thinking? When the guy realized
Speaker 4: what he'd done, he said, kill me. I can't live
Speaker 4: with my film.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, But I mean the thing is is that that's
Speaker 6: what people fear here, and we don't even have a
Speaker 6: public that even wants to know. But the people that
Speaker 6: were this case, this case really resonated across throughout Canada.
Speaker 6: But so people were talking about what if the guy
Speaker 6: doesn't take his medication? I say, how do you know
Speaker 6: that the medication works? Now? If you have a state law.
Speaker 6: And and I know some of the states in America where
Speaker 6: if you're convicted of something like this, yes you could
Speaker 6: be insane, but still guilty, so they don't care whether
Speaker 6: you're insane. And then there was other places where you
Speaker 6: would do an indefinite stay in a mental institution.
Speaker 4: Actually, as you say that, if you're found not guilty
Speaker 4: by reason of insanity, you will be in the mental
Speaker 4: institution longer than you would be if you were found
Speaker 4: guilty of breaking the law. In most cases, it's no
Speaker 4: get there's no get out a jail free card with it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So that's why I find it odd that that
Speaker 6: your prosecutors are that zealous.
Speaker 4: So the point again, because the prosecutors down here run
Speaker 4: for election, that's right, and they want to be able
Speaker 4: to say we have a ninety ninety nine percent conviction rate, right,
Speaker 4: not a ninety nine percent justice rate. And they also
Speaker 4: go on the theory that we would not bring charges
Speaker 4: against someone unless they were guilty, even though we haven't
Speaker 4: had a trial yet. You know, why would we waste
Speaker 4: our time putting together a case against someone who was innocent?
Speaker 6: Well guess what, yeah, Well, you know the thing is,
Speaker 6: you don't.
Speaker 4: Go to court anyway, they're plea bargained out. Poor people
Speaker 4: don't have any options. I've seen confessions where the signature
Speaker 4: wasn't the person's signature and the niggers held wrong. Really yeah,
Speaker 4: it's like give to give the person a blank piece
Speaker 4: of paper and say you sign this, go fill in
Speaker 4: the details. Or they'll say, uh, don't worry, we'll take
Speaker 4: care of all the paper. We're going to write a
Speaker 4: confession for you. I've seen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just had j Patrick O'Connor. I don't he's
Speaker 6: the editor of Crime magazine on last week, and he's
Speaker 6: got a he's got a book about the Chino Hill
Speaker 6: murders and a case of wrongful conviction that is so
Speaker 6: obvious that it's yeah, you know, he did another He
Speaker 6: did the the Jamal Muma Jamal case, you know, so
Speaker 6: that was a little more complex. This one that he
Speaker 6: does with the Chino Hill murders is like, Wow, they
Speaker 6: depended on this sex con that happened to be in
Speaker 6: the area and they knew he was in the area.
Speaker 4: And that's a lot of people don't realize that that's
Speaker 4: the reason for sex offended registries. It's not to protect
Speaker 4: you from some sex offender because after all, if there are,
Speaker 4: if they're out living in the community, then that means
Speaker 4: that it was a long time ago, they've already been
Speaker 4: through some sort of therapy. They ain't doing anything wrong,
Speaker 4: you know, it's so you have someone to pin things on.
Speaker 6: I don't know, because we we don't have anything like
Speaker 6: that here.
Speaker 4: We have now here where if you have, if you
Speaker 4: have ever been arrested or convicted of any type of
Speaker 4: sex crime from even if that includes being caught urinating
Speaker 4: in the alley, you're going to be on a sex
Speaker 4: offended registry. And boy, if they get in a bind
Speaker 4: on someone to uh you know, round up usual suspects,
Speaker 4: they run a p usual suspects.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it's it seems. It seems incredible because what
Speaker 6: we have is, like I said before, we just have
Speaker 6: an incredible difference where we were already plea bargaining down
Speaker 6: because they they'll make a they'll make a public statement
Speaker 6: almost really add to preliminary and say you know what
Speaker 6: we we we we have to we have to uh
Speaker 6: give this guy a manslaughter plea because we won't likely
Speaker 6: get a conviction of second to be murdered. So they
Speaker 6: don't even start at first degree and there's a difference
Speaker 6: in getting that, so we we have a completely different situation.
Speaker 4: So out here they do exactly the Kaylie Anthony business
Speaker 4: right where they they charge someone with no evidence and
Speaker 4: then they have trial by talk show down here, which
Speaker 4: is fairly horrifying. I I don't get it out on
Speaker 4: my show either, but they'll try the thing in the media.
Speaker 4: Then it goes to court and there's no evidence. Yeah.
Speaker 4: We like on the Michael Jackson case was one where
Speaker 4: the you know, the kid was and they shopped that.
Speaker 4: I mean, they took that case to every prosecutor in
Speaker 4: the LA area because you don't have a case. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's real, you know, and they just they kept going
Speaker 4: and going and going until they found wanted to go
Speaker 4: along with it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like going to a doctor for you know, doctor,
Speaker 4: tell me I have such and such a disease. You don't,
Speaker 4: you don't. Finally you find one who's willing to tell
Speaker 4: you what you want to hear, and you'll find one.
Speaker 6: Well, it's like the case with the kids Trayvon or
Speaker 6: whatever his name is, the kid uh and Zimmerman. They're
Speaker 6: finally getting charged. I mean if they just the sentiment
Speaker 6: grew the sentiment grew. Oh, and there's some athletes are
Speaker 6: are raising the stink, and some some movie actors, and
Speaker 6: all suddenly suddenly there is I mean, either there was
Speaker 6: the evidence there or there wasn't.
Speaker 4: Well apparently. I mean, I usually don't comment on a case,
Speaker 4: have an investigator and a little I know at the
Speaker 4: time the policemen wanted to arrest the fellow, but I
Speaker 4: guess there were some connections there and then come on,
Speaker 4: let him go and no one will ever know the difference.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. But things now,
Speaker 4: how to hell does this guy ever get a fair trial?
Speaker 4: I mean, this whole you know, doing a trial in
Speaker 4: the media, I'm not in favor of, you know, and
Speaker 4: I've got on some shows, was that, what do you
Speaker 4: think of this case? And I say, I'm sorry, I
Speaker 4: don't comment on a case that I haven't personally investigated,
Speaker 4: or this is an ongoing investigation. First of all, it's
Speaker 4: an ongoing investigation. You don't know anything because the cops
Speaker 4: are not going to reveal the most important information. Sure,
Speaker 4: so why are you about to talk about it when
Speaker 4: you know that whatever it is you're saying is irrelevant.
Speaker 6: Well, but That's the thing. That's what's amazing to me
Speaker 6: is that there's so much of a market for that nonsense.
Speaker 6: But you know, it's not a testament to it's not
Speaker 6: a testament to some of the audience though, I mean,
Speaker 6: because I know what Nancy Grace, I mean, Nancy Grace.
Speaker 6: That's unbelievable that there's an audience for that guy and
Speaker 6: what's his name, Glenn Beck. But you know that's what
Speaker 6: you got.
Speaker 4: They got Glenn. Well, Glenn has his own network.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: I think rita cave somewhere, you know, just you know.
Speaker 4: The one thing I remind myself is if the people
Speaker 4: who get all worked up, you know and watching that
Speaker 4: and taking beds, why I think so and so did
Speaker 4: it when they don't know what the world they're talking about.
Speaker 4: These aren't the people who actually do any think. I
Speaker 4: mean as far as like, if they really cared about
Speaker 4: the dead baby of the week, they would volunteer for
Speaker 4: at risk kids in their own community or troubled moms
Speaker 4: where they could really make a difference. You can't make
Speaker 4: a difference sitting in front of your TV, said yelling
Speaker 4: at somebody. You know, they spend as much time as
Speaker 4: they do watching that show to go out and volunteer
Speaker 4: in their own community. Maybe some other lives would be saved.
Speaker 4: But you know what, these people don't buy my books.
Speaker 4: They don't buy yours either.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: The people who do is entirely different. I mean, some
Speaker 4: of them do, but overall it's a different stratumy society,
Speaker 4: a different mindset of people who want to know what's
Speaker 4: really going on. Actually a shift. And the majority of
Speaker 4: true crime readers are women. And it's always been a
Speaker 4: think about you, how do you get men interested in
Speaker 4: true crime? Well, that's something I've been working on, and
Speaker 4: I think you're being successful at Allso as we're starting
Speaker 4: to get males men who are reading true crime and going,
Speaker 4: you know, this is rather interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, you know the thing is, it's amazing how many
Speaker 6: guys will tell me, yeah, I haven't read a book
Speaker 6: since high school, and I'm going, well, I wouldn't tell
Speaker 6: anybody of that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, and brag.
Speaker 6: But I agree with you though, too, that some of
Speaker 6: these stories that you can see some of the authors
Speaker 6: that handled the grittier stories, you know, no offense to
Speaker 6: women at all. But the guys handled the grittier stories,
Speaker 6: you know, they handle the cases with the crazier and
Speaker 6: more brutal killers, because you have to have you have
Speaker 6: to have a strong stomach for what they just went through.
Speaker 4: And I really know I wasn't born to be a
Speaker 4: coper and our technician or anything like that. The first
Speaker 4: one like this, I did, you know, serious true crime book,
Speaker 4: Murdering the Family was a rape and murderer of like
Speaker 4: what a six year old and a four year old
Speaker 4: or a three year old or something. It was just horrifying.
Speaker 4: I mean it was just so upsetting. And Gary C. King,
Speaker 4: who is a great true crime author on your shore
Speaker 4: or not and yet yeah, well used to have them
Speaker 4: on anyway. He told me when I went to do
Speaker 4: my first one for Kennidy, he said, be prepared to
Speaker 4: cry a lot and have nightmares. He says, because you're
Speaker 4: gonna have to deal with things, you know that if
Speaker 4: you're got to have it that, if you don't have
Speaker 4: that background, if you're not a you know, like an
Speaker 4: emergency room technician or a doctor, a copp or something,
Speaker 4: you're not used to having to deal with that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and.
Speaker 4: People call us bloodsuckers. They think we're getting rich off
Speaker 4: the pain of others. I don't think newspapers who do
Speaker 4: a superficial version of a story get hate mail. I
Speaker 4: don't think TV stations to do superficial versions on the
Speaker 4: news of who killed who get hate mail. But if
Speaker 4: you devote a year of your life the painstaking invests
Speaker 4: of a trial and a case and the people involved,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, you're a bloodsucker. Well, you know.
Speaker 6: Luckily, I've never had anybody actually say that, but I
Speaker 6: know the sentiment, and I've spoken to other authors on
Speaker 6: this program that have said the same thing, and I
Speaker 6: was surprised at some of the you know, the reaction
Speaker 6: to what you guys have done, because I mean, I've
Speaker 6: read I don't know how many true crime books. They
Speaker 6: are such, they are historical. There are a lot of
Speaker 6: time really part autobio, not autobiography, biographical. They're very much
Speaker 6: for the guy that reads the serious nonfiction who says,
Speaker 6: I don't read true crime once he reads the story
Speaker 6: a really good one, a book like yourself, a story
Speaker 6: that's that he didn't know about. That's what's really amazing.
Speaker 4: I think that those particular books keep coming back. Lowell
Speaker 4: call Field, for example, his book Houses Secrets, Yeah, which
Speaker 4: has been around long time, and that is. In fact,
Speaker 4: that's the book that got him out of the true
Speaker 4: crime business. I mean it was both had such a
Speaker 4: gut wrenching impact on him, and he stopped writing true crime. Fabulous,
Speaker 4: A fascinating guy, an incredible book. I mean you want
Speaker 4: to read. Of course, to me, the all time most
Speaker 4: important non fiction true crime book is Jack Olson's book
Speaker 4: Last Man Standing, the true story of the framing of
Speaker 4: Geronimo Pratt for murder by the FBI and the LA prosecutors.
Speaker 4: Twenty seven years in prison, mostly insulitary of confinement for
Speaker 4: a crime that everyone, I mean, the FBI knew he
Speaker 4: didn't do it, the prosecutor knew he didn't do it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you know Jack Olson. You know what was
Speaker 6: interesting too, is I when I first start to see
Speaker 6: your stuff, like I said to you, as Broken Doll
Speaker 6: was the first book I saw, and I was in
Speaker 6: the library of every library had Broken Doll. And then
Speaker 6: I start seeing some other titles and paperback and so
Speaker 6: I said in pardon me. And so what happened is
Speaker 6: that Jack Olson was another one of those people. I
Speaker 6: didn't know anything about it. I didn't know any true
Speaker 6: crime fans, but I start reading Jack Olson and I
Speaker 6: just I love the guy. And then when I saw
Speaker 6: his review of you. When I saw his review of
Speaker 6: you saying that you were the guy, you were the
Speaker 6: you were the real deal, I said this, this is
Speaker 6: amazing endorsement.
Speaker 4: Because Jack Old, think do you think you think it
Speaker 4: was an amazing endorsement? I really thought it was. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, my favorite, my favorite. You got to kick
Speaker 4: out of that. You got to kick out of doing
Speaker 4: that because I gave him. We used to talk on
Speaker 4: the phone all the time. Made his soul rest in peace.
Speaker 4: And he did an article where he was complaining about
Speaker 4: the True Crime was all a bunch of barbage, all
Speaker 4: a bunch of crap.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I read that.
Speaker 4: I read that. Okay, it was the paper I called.
Speaker 4: I said, Jack, you know, as long as you're saying
Speaker 4: all those horrible things about true Crime, could you at
Speaker 4: least say something nice about me? And he laughed and said, Burrow,
Speaker 4: what does I say on the cover of your book?
Speaker 4: Says Pearl Bear rights True Crime his best Jack Olson,
Speaker 4: it's even above your name. They go, yeah, he goes,
Speaker 4: more people are going to see the cover of your
Speaker 4: book that are going to see the newspaper article because
Speaker 4: you've got nothing to worry about.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, absolutely. My favorite jack Olson was his last book,
Speaker 6: I The Creation of a serial Killer.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. When he told me, he says, Burley says,
Speaker 4: this is gonna be my last true crime book.
Speaker 6: Really, oh yeah, he did he know he was he
Speaker 6: was sick or passed.
Speaker 4: Oh, he had just had it. In fact, he was
Speaker 4: telling me, he said, Burley, just get out of food
Speaker 4: crime while you can. We will end up like me.
Speaker 4: And I said, well, that's not too bad enough like you,
Speaker 4: because he goes, no, I don't mean in terms of quality,
Speaker 4: he said, he'll wind up. You know. Uh. There was
Speaker 4: a lot of work, a lot of emotional drain for
Speaker 4: not a lot of renumeration. Yeah, he said, you know,
Speaker 4: you really should try to get out of it. That's
Speaker 4: why he said that what he wrote, that book I
Speaker 4: created for serial killers. This is the last one. I'm
Speaker 4: never going to write another true crime book. Well, he
Speaker 4: was so disheartened about what happened with Last Man Standing.
Speaker 4: He called me up. He said, bro go down the
Speaker 4: bookstore and uh, and they're just claiming, wait, have a
Speaker 4: jack Olson book came out to be right in the window,
Speaker 4: you know, on the best seller list. They have big
Speaker 4: signs up. You know, here's the old latest jack Olson book.
Speaker 4: I go down, I walk and I don't. I look
Speaker 4: in the window and I don't see it. I look
Speaker 4: on her best sellers, don't see it. Look at her
Speaker 4: new releases, don't see it. So I walk up to
Speaker 4: the you know, the person, I say, excuse me, do
Speaker 4: you have Last Man Standing by Jack Olson? And this
Speaker 4: is something that you know would be right there in
Speaker 4: the window, you know, And he gets a little computer.
Speaker 4: He goes, oh, yes, we haven't filed them back under
Speaker 4: black studies. Black studies. Well yeah, because Pride was black
Speaker 4: and he wasn't. I says, this is what happened. He
Speaker 4: says it was book was intentionally buried. He says, whether
Speaker 4: the FBI put pressure on him. I mean he told
Speaker 4: him not to put Geronimo Press picture on the cover.
Speaker 4: Straight as sad as it is, if there's a picture
Speaker 4: of a black man on the cover of a book, uh,
Speaker 4: it uh reduced the sales by forty fly christ And well,
Speaker 4: while I bolt will wind up having it filed under
Speaker 4: black studies, which it was. Yeah yeah, wow yeah.
Speaker 6: Well that that would that would outrage me. I mean,
Speaker 6: it would outrage you too, So that's yeah if I
Speaker 6: like the new cover they put on the headshot, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: as a new cover and total.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're doing some nice stuff. And one of your
Speaker 4: favorites of my book is coming out with the revised
Speaker 4: edition in December. They're coming out with a new edition
Speaker 4: of BodyCount.
Speaker 6: Oh, right on, right on. We'll have to get you
Speaker 6: back on talk about that. That was a well received
Speaker 6: interview to body Counts. An amazing story. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well serial killers they have a way of tracking
Speaker 4: and following.
Speaker 6: Oh they're charming, aren't they. Yeah, Oh they're fascinating guys. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I was gonna Also, we have this opportunity you can
Speaker 6: tell people about the true crimes on heart issues. American Horrors.
Speaker 4: Yes, Tuesday nights at seven o'clock Pacific time, Weday seven ish,
Speaker 4: because sometimes the movie that's some before it's then. I
Speaker 4: think I just said some Danzel Pansky guy has something
Speaker 4: coming on after us. That's what I heard. Yeah, every
Speaker 4: Tuesday night at seven o'clock on American Horrors, which is
Speaker 4: a TV channel that you can get via your computer
Speaker 4: online and stream it right to your iPad, your iPhone,
Speaker 4: your TV whatever through film on dot Com and I've
Speaker 4: got great channels to subscribe to it. I just if
Speaker 4: you just want to get American Horrors, you get there
Speaker 4: for like two dollars or fifty cents a month or something.
Speaker 6: Yeah, two bucks.
Speaker 4: In fact, where we're doing some shooting, some new shows
Speaker 4: a week from Saturday with Wetly mentioned a little call Field.
Speaker 4: We're gonna have a little call Feel and famous Hollywood
Speaker 4: private Eye Fred Wolfson and Don Wolman and myself, and
Speaker 4: of course I'll also do the True Crime Uncensored on Saturdays,
Speaker 4: an not already with Howard Lapitas, manager of Doctor Drew Pinsky.
Speaker 6: Yes, Celebrity Rehab, so yeah.
Speaker 4: In the new version is going it's gonna be called
Speaker 4: Real Rehab, no Celebrities Tour. I think relapse relapse. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And what was I gonna say? What is the next
Speaker 4: book you're going to have released from a Pinnacle again
Speaker 4: of course, but actually before a body Count comes out
Speaker 4: with a new edition in December. Our Berry Flowers is
Speaker 4: the editor of what's called Masters of True Crime's Yeah,
Speaker 4: and apparently I'm a Master of True Crime or Mastered
Speaker 4: by Domain because I miss a book with the Alaska
Speaker 4: male bomb conspiracy. And that's all a guess you might
Speaker 4: enjoy having and I could ookay up with the Jim
Speaker 4: Bordenay of the United States Postal Inspection retired was the
Speaker 4: state's postal inspection. They're goind of like the f b I,
Speaker 4: except under the Postal service. Oh yeah, and you know
Speaker 4: they got a UNI bomber and all that. He's got
Speaker 4: faceating stories and he helped me a great deal on that.
Speaker 4: It was originally going to be a book, but the
Speaker 4: publisher wound up going to prison. That a different story.
Speaker 4: But for Masters of True Crime comes out in July,
Speaker 4: I believe, and then December Body Count comes out. In
Speaker 4: the meantime, I'm working on a supernatural thriller for Lee
Speaker 4: Goldberg and William Rapkin is the dead Man series, and
Speaker 4: a new Saint novel.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it was gonna you know, that was It's
Speaker 6: amazing your background here with the Saint, that the family,
Speaker 6: you know, the you know you're such a fan of
Speaker 6: the Saint. You did the non fiction book that everything
Speaker 6: you know the history of the Saint, and then they
Speaker 6: they said to you, they said, we want you to
Speaker 6: continue with this, you know this legacy.
Speaker 4: I wrote the wrote a book called Capture the Saint
Speaker 4: an original book and the series that they really liked,
Speaker 4: and I did the novelization of the film, and now
Speaker 4: I've got another novel and the worst called tentatively the
Speaker 4: Return of the Saint. The only reason it's called that
Speaker 4: is the UK publisher said they wanted that to be
Speaker 4: the title could wind up being changed between now and then.
Speaker 4: But it's fun, you know, it's very samely and as
Speaker 4: with the Capture the Saint, we you don't bring back
Speaker 4: some of the old characters and have a good time,
Speaker 4: and you.
Speaker 6: Do so also you have because there's a book called
Speaker 6: Headlock and then this one's called Headshot, and you know
Speaker 6: that was very strange.
Speaker 4: They came out the exact same time. And Travis Webb
Speaker 4: is in both books. Yeah, because it's see Travis Webb
Speaker 4: is a friend of mine who's also quite an accomplished
Speaker 4: journalist as well as one of the top rave promoters
Speaker 4: in the world. Really based out of Seattle, if I
Speaker 4: know him up there in Canada. I wrote a fiction
Speaker 4: novel where I'm the star, where I'm the hero. It's
Speaker 4: called Headlock, and I have Travis in the book as himself.
Speaker 4: Well after we did that, he called me up and said,
Speaker 4: I never told you about my uncle Andrew. He might
Speaker 4: make a good book. And that, of course is amazingly enough.
Speaker 4: They came out found up being published at the same time,
Speaker 4: two different publishers, one called Headshot and one called Headlock,
Speaker 4: one fiction, one nonfiction.
Speaker 6: So yeah, amazing, Yeah, the same people in them. And
Speaker 6: you do have a practice of or a habit of
Speaker 6: sort of taking names and switching them a little bit too,
Speaker 6: taking the fictional.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I used the names of real people in
Speaker 4: my fiction books. I have found my friends friends of
Speaker 4: mine show up in a lot of books. Donald McCook,
Speaker 4: who is a friend of mine in England. She is
Speaker 4: the love interest of the jet pilot in Stealth, which
Speaker 4: is only available in Japanese, but if any of your
Speaker 4: readers read Japanese you can get that one. And Travis
Speaker 4: Webb shows up and not only in h in Headlock,
Speaker 4: but I think he also shows up in a couple
Speaker 4: of other fiction books. Chet Rogers, who does commentary There's
Speaker 4: a news, real newscaster the commentary I believe in Uh
Speaker 4: Headshot also shows up in the book The Faint You
Speaker 4: Know by the Val Kilmer movie, the novelization of that
Speaker 4: playing as a newsman in Russia. I tend to stick
Speaker 4: people out and friends of mine in books. I'll put
Speaker 4: you in one making you can be a victim or
Speaker 4: a killer or something either one, either one. You don't
Speaker 4: care anymore that well.
Speaker 6: Actually, when when the case was finished they put in
Speaker 6: the paper, they they interchanged the name of the killer
Speaker 6: for me basically, so I was basically telling the killer
Speaker 6: about the story in the hope of getting a lot
Speaker 6: of money for the murder that I committed. And then
Speaker 6: so I called him up and said, hey, guys, guys,
Speaker 6: uh backwards, And so they retracted it, and I could
Speaker 6: barely find a retraction. So I went, well, there you go, thanks.
Speaker 4: Uh, that's to uh what was it? Oh, in the
Speaker 4: book they fixed this. But in the original version of Headshot,
Speaker 4: they had the prosecutor's name out of the defense attorney's picture,
Speaker 4: a vice versa.
Speaker 6: It's not good for business.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think they fixed that now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And who do you have on this week on
Speaker 6: Outlaw Radio on two crimesone censors the author of.
Speaker 4: The prosecutor actually of a charmer the millionaire rape.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, I'm gonna have that. I'm going to have
Speaker 6: those folks on soon. I've got them scheduled too, so.
Speaker 4: Oh good what you can listen to Saturday won't find out?
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, we'll always do you know.
Speaker 4: Your show and steal your guests and vice versus. You know,
Speaker 4: they overlap different styles and all the wind up getting
Speaker 4: different stuff out of them. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. And you get some guys that you know, I mean,
Speaker 6: I just I wouldn't even have thought of. And some
Speaker 6: people that are won't come on my show.
Speaker 4: Sometimes you get done that won't come on my show.
Speaker 4: I don't know what.
Speaker 6: I don't know what the heck it is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and I'm not interested click.
Speaker 6: I guess once they feel well, I've already had that guy.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 6: They're probably similar.
Speaker 4: I forget it.
Speaker 6: One's good enough.
Speaker 4: Maybe that are I scared him so bad they don't
Speaker 4: want to be at anybody show.
Speaker 6: Well, maybe I scared him. I don't know. One of
Speaker 6: those they they they just give up. They retire. So yeah,
Speaker 6: so that's been It's been a lot of fun, Burrow
Speaker 6: like usually.
Speaker 4: It's always a pleasure to be on your show. And
Speaker 4: of course if people missed it listen to it live,
Speaker 4: it could always catch it on the podcast. The downloads.
Speaker 6: I hope they do, and I wanted to mention too,
Speaker 6: thanks to great authors like yourself, but guys that really
Speaker 6: seem to be the community of true crime guys, authors
Speaker 6: like myself, first time guys uh, and I think the
Speaker 6: audience really has U. I've loved hearing guys like yourself
Speaker 6: talk about their books and all the great guests. A
Speaker 6: lot of Pinnacle authors as of tomorrow will be one
Speaker 6: million programs and downloaded in about two years four months.
Speaker 6: So wow to make that announcement and thank the audience,
Speaker 6: because like the interview we had with you and uh
Speaker 6: and don and and hart Fisher, sixty five thousand people
Speaker 6: tuned in. So it's just it's getting.
Speaker 4: Maybe a lot was just clumsy and they kept downloading
Speaker 4: it over and over again.
Speaker 6: Well that's probably what happened. No, it's it's it's really
Speaker 6: just the the the cowbler of guests and the kind
Speaker 6: of programs I get. Uh, you know, email fan mail
Speaker 6: from everywhere Sweden, England, Australia, and people are fanatical, said I, oh,
Speaker 6: I download this lady that listens to the appropriate has
Speaker 6: Victoria says, I listened to one hundred and seven programs
Speaker 6: several times, so.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, perhaps you need a hobby. Thet's yeah, she's
Speaker 4: probably just a big fan.
Speaker 6: No, No, it's great. It's it's I'm getting a lot
Speaker 6: of really good feedback. And it's because of guys like
Speaker 6: yourself to come on.
Speaker 4: And we watch, and I always tell O audists wind
Speaker 4: your show too. So, yeah, did a good job.
Speaker 6: It's our little true crime community because, as I said
Speaker 6: to one person already, I know the crime doesn't pay,
Speaker 6: but I'm really up, really I want to make sure
Speaker 6: true crime does pay, you know.
Speaker 4: So it's it's a rough it's a rough gig. It's
Speaker 4: a lot of work, and you know, in case people
Speaker 4: haven't figured out, we're not getting rich doing it. And
Speaker 4: the books are a lot of work and research intensive.
Speaker 4: It can be very emotionally draining, but hopefully, you know,
Speaker 4: some things will make it worthwhile. I got. I've had
Speaker 4: a couple of letters from from people who send me
Speaker 4: heartfelt letters that reading the book was able to give
Speaker 4: them closure on these cases. Sometimes it was law enforcement
Speaker 4: people who've been carrying it around with them for years,
Speaker 4: or one was a medical tech who had to deal
Speaker 4: with the murdered children and the murdering the family case.
Speaker 4: And years later they've come across the book and the
Speaker 4: readers they were able to find it put themselves at
Speaker 4: peace with it. So when I get letters like that,
Speaker 4: I go, she's all worth it. It's worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 6: And you know, just another story similar to that, I
Speaker 6: met with the the head of the police associate. We
Speaker 6: didn't take police association. He's a former homicide detective and
Speaker 6: he we went for coffee for about forty five minutes.
Speaker 6: You know, this guy's probably pretty busy doing things. There's
Speaker 6: a lot of murders were murder capital but he still
Speaker 6: he gave me a Winnipeg Police Association had We had
Speaker 6: coffee and he wanted a couple of autograph books and
Speaker 6: it thanked me for my contribution to the case.
Speaker 4: You know what, you know, before I go, I got
Speaker 4: to mention Bobby her Berry, who is a detective in
Speaker 4: the case and headshot. Fantastic guy and if you do
Speaker 4: a little search on Google whatever, I have an interview
Speaker 4: with him, has posted on the internet that people will
Speaker 4: really enjoy.
Speaker 6: So that's yes, SCA, I'm going to check that out. Yeah,
Speaker 6: he is quite the character in this as well too,
Speaker 6: so that.
Speaker 4: A great guy. Three generations of Tacoma police.
Speaker 6: Wow. Yeah, interesting yeah, in a busy place too.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah yeah yeah. It used to be the entire
Speaker 4: town was off limits to service personnel. Oh really yeah,
Speaker 4: v DVD Capital of the state. Oh, if you want
Speaker 4: a social disease, we can tell you where to go.
Speaker 6: Yeah nice, that just boosted tourism about.
Speaker 4: Yeah well it did then, it does now in the
Speaker 4: old days.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 6: Anyways, Burl, thank you very much for for this.
Speaker 4: I pleasure time and.
Speaker 6: Hope to talk to you real soon and I'll be
Speaker 6: listening on Saturday Outlaw Radio True Crimes Uncensored. So for
Speaker 6: those and for those who are listening, the book is
Speaker 6: Headshot by Burl Bear. Check out his h uh many
Speaker 6: other books, nonfiction and fiction. So thanks very much, Burl.
Speaker 4: Have a good night, pleasure, have a good knight. Bye bye,
Speaker 4: bye bye