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<v Speaker 1>Your voice. I drive around and talk to a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people your vote, trying to do my part to

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<v Speaker 1>get Donald J. Trump reelected.

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<v Speaker 2>On fifty five KR the talk station at oh five

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<v Speaker 2>fifty five KRC Detalk Station. Brian Thomas wishing everyone a

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<v Speaker 2>very happy Wednesday, looking forward to the bottom of the

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<v Speaker 2>hour as I always do on Wednesdays with judg Ena Paulitano,

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<v Speaker 2>and really looking forward to dive on into this study

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<v Speaker 2>done by my next guests, among other researchers, Hillary Shulman, PhD,

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<v Speaker 2>Associate Professor in the School of Communication at the Ohio

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<v Speaker 2>State University. Her work examines on how communication can be

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<v Speaker 2>used to stimulate engagement in the areas of politics, health

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<v Speaker 2>and science, and that's of course the focus of the

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<v Speaker 2>study we'll be talking about today. Caption Predicting vote choice

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<v Speaker 2>and election outcomes from ballot wording, the role of processing

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<v Speaker 2>fluency in low information direct democracy elections. Welcome to the program,

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<v Speaker 2>Hillary Schulman. It's a real pleasure to have you on today.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Now in your study and I and I dove into it,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's a lot, it's well, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>well written study. All of the research is documented. You

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<v Speaker 2>do give credit where credit is due, so no plagiarism here.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of citations and other previous studies you relied on.

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<v Speaker 2>I had to clear the error on that one right out.

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<v Speaker 2>You're welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate you're reading that whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, you talk about low information voters, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>a concept that I am an admitted weed dweller. This

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<v Speaker 2>is what I do for a living. I'm reading politics

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four to seven basically, so I kind of feel

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm kind of at a higher level of understanding

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to a lot of matters, including ballid initiatives.

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<v Speaker 2>But so many people, as you know, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>most people will acknowledge, don't pay a lot of attention

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<v Speaker 2>to politics, and the more obscure an issue, the less

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<v Speaker 2>likely they're going to have any knowledge about it. And

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<v Speaker 2>as you note in your study that well, sometimes when

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<v Speaker 2>people show up at the polling booth, it's the first

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<v Speaker 2>time they've ever been even exposed to the issue that

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<v Speaker 2>they're voting on.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's true. I mean there are definitely some issues

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<v Speaker 1>that gain a lot of exposure, and that campaigns rely

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<v Speaker 1>heavily on the fact that people aren't going to read

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<v Speaker 1>the language, so they just send you a mailer and

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<v Speaker 1>say vote yes or vote no, and people just go okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and they never actually read the language. But for these

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<v Speaker 1>like more obscure, like you're talking about political issues, things

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<v Speaker 1>like millages, things like amendments to you know, esoteric laws,

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<v Speaker 1>people might not know those are up for election and

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<v Speaker 1>walk into the voting booths on election day and see

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<v Speaker 1>those for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well in issue one, and I don't know where you

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<v Speaker 2>are on and it's immature for the purposes of our discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, I'll predicate this statement or this this question,

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<v Speaker 2>or this point by acknowledging that, yes, I am a

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<v Speaker 2>weed dweller, but I'm also a lawyer at seven years

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<v Speaker 2>of college tall it wasted or not practice for sixteen years,

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<v Speaker 2>and the self deprecating comment I always raise my MENSA

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<v Speaker 2>membership because to me, it doesn't mean any thing. It

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean you're smart on any given issue. Now, with

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<v Speaker 2>all that I read Issue one, it's lengthy and it

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<v Speaker 2>is bloody confusing, even to someone who understands, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe more than the average voter. I mean, it's it's crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>So how is someone how is someone to walk into

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<v Speaker 2>the poll as a low information voter to have any

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<v Speaker 2>any understanding of how this is actually going to play

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<v Speaker 2>out in practice. Who doesn't walk through hypothetical scenarios like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what if one of these independent committee members happens to

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<v Speaker 2>be a felon, or you know what if they do

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<v Speaker 2>something untoward or illegal. As I understand it, there's no

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<v Speaker 2>way for the average person to go after them, to

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<v Speaker 2>sue them, to litigate whatever to get them off. They

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<v Speaker 2>have to be voted out by their own membership. I

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<v Speaker 2>find a problem with that. But you aren't going to

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<v Speaker 2>even grasp that small component if you're standing there for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time looking at it in the ballot box.

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<v Speaker 1>Nope, And here's what you're gonna do. You're going to

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<v Speaker 1>read that for the first time in the ballot box,

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<v Speaker 1>and you are going to vote no on Issue one accordingly,

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<v Speaker 1>because you're going to be like, I don't like this,

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<v Speaker 1>and I use the word in my title, which you

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<v Speaker 1>know is a jargon y term, so forgive me. But

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of processing fluency, and that's the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>how much effort we feel like we're spending on reading something,

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<v Speaker 1>And in the case of Issue one, that perception of

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<v Speaker 1>effort is going to be really high and really hard,

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<v Speaker 1>and we don't like things that kind of challenge us

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<v Speaker 1>when we're not anticipating that challenge, and what we do

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<v Speaker 1>is we usually oppose it in that case. So, well,

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<v Speaker 1>then who just walks into the voting booth. They're probably

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<v Speaker 1>going to vote no if they're just relying on the

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<v Speaker 1>language and I'm just relying on kind of their gut instinct,

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<v Speaker 1>and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Suppose your research demonstrates it. Well, I know what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm living with now and may not be perfect,

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<v Speaker 2>but since I'm confused by what I'm staring at, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>rather just stick with the status quo because I'm at

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<v Speaker 2>least familiar with and it isn't impacting my life directly.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, Yeah, yeah, there is evidence of that. It's called

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<v Speaker 1>the statf that is quo biased, and that is indeed

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<v Speaker 1>true that people will tend to vote for the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that's already existing, especially if they don't feel like they

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<v Speaker 1>did their due diligence and their you know, information searching

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<v Speaker 1>on the topic, and like you said, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people sure don't. We might. I read the news every day.

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<v Speaker 1>I enjoy listening to all sorts of programs and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 1>But I recognize that I am an audity compared to

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<v Speaker 1>the average voter, and so absolutely, well.

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<v Speaker 2>You got some company anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the research does show that you and I, even

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<v Speaker 1>if we're in totally different ends of the political spectrum,

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot more in common with each other than

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who's less engaged.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now, how what impact? And again I'll just rely

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<v Speaker 2>on Issue one as an illustration of how this happens

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<v Speaker 2>generally speaking, because you didn't focus on that issues, focused

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<v Speaker 2>on these ballid issues generally. But then the money that

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<v Speaker 2>flows in and in that in particular Issue one, we

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<v Speaker 2>got a lot of out of state money. We have,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the guy from Switzerland who's pumped in millions

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<v Speaker 2>and millions of dollars for reasons beyond my understanding, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think I understand it's for political reasons. Does the

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<v Speaker 2>money and the the the just sort of the boiled down,

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<v Speaker 2>boilerplate language politicians evil? This takes politicians out of the equation.

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<v Speaker 2>Does that have an impact on people who otherwise are

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<v Speaker 2>low information voters and not inclined to read through all

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<v Speaker 2>this and the complexities to.

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<v Speaker 1>Go with it. I mean, yeah, so the study you

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<v Speaker 1>read at the beginning actually focused on issues that get

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<v Speaker 1>no money, right, so that there's no outside interests, there's

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<v Speaker 1>no bank account from Switzerland funding an Ohio election ballot.

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<v Speaker 1>But so in these cases ballot language matters. But in

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<v Speaker 1>the instances you're talking about, right, the ballot or the

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<v Speaker 1>funding for these ballot initiatives can work a lot like

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<v Speaker 1>an R or a D on a kind of on

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<v Speaker 1>local election, right where people just use it as a heuristic.

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<v Speaker 1>My going yet, I'm going yes. If my team's going no,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going no. And I'm probably likely to never read

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<v Speaker 1>that ballot language and just rely on these heuristics for

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<v Speaker 1>these cues, like we do it a lot of kind

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<v Speaker 1>of down ballot races just to say, I vote for

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<v Speaker 1>my team and I vote against my opposing team, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's that.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever the pink sheet of blue sheet states.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly whatever the fly or tells me that a person

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<v Speaker 1>whom I like, you know, endorsements matter for these things too.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if I the senator that I like is

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<v Speaker 1>endorsing this, then I'm likely to just say yes or

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<v Speaker 1>and vice versa.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in the underlying issue itself tends to matter in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of people's awareness of it. I think your research

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<v Speaker 2>found out or other research cited in your study, finds

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<v Speaker 2>out that social and moral issues have a higher awareness

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<v Speaker 2>rate than something non social like jerrymandering, I would imagine

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<v Speaker 2>is a non social issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's a non social issue, but they both are

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<v Speaker 1>likely to receive fun. But the thing is about social

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<v Speaker 1>and moral issues. You know, we had the constitutional amendment

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<v Speaker 1>in August right about putting abortion rights in the state constitution.

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<v Speaker 1>Regardless of how that ballot's written, people sort of know

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<v Speaker 1>where they stand on that, and all they have to

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<v Speaker 1>do is look up whether or not where they stand

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<v Speaker 1>aligned with the guests or now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah and then.

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<v Speaker 1>So so for those people are more readily able to

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<v Speaker 1>access you know, what their vote means and what they

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<v Speaker 1>care about versus you know, millages and you know, more right,

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<v Speaker 1>more complicated in the weeds types of initiatives.

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<v Speaker 2>But going back to something when I when I recall

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<v Speaker 2>the vote to legalize gambling, that ballot initiative that was

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<v Speaker 2>in or amendment that was in. People didn't think the

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<v Speaker 2>government should say you're not allowed to gamble. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was you know, everybody, for the majority of us,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't find any problem with gambling. There are problem gamblers,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's a subset. But in terms of me being

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<v Speaker 2>able to go out in place a bed, nobody cares.

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<v Speaker 2>So when Kevin an opportunity, it is like, oh, this

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<v Speaker 2>legalizes gambling, you get my yes vote. But they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>pay attention to the fact that it created a monopoly

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<v Speaker 2>for specific individuals and casinos, which was enshrined in the constitution,

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<v Speaker 2>which I find absolutely I voted no just because of

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<v Speaker 2>that reason, same reason I voted no on the original

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<v Speaker 2>marijuana cartel establishment. It was the mechanism that was wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>not the general issue. I don't care if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to smoke weed, but as sure as I wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>to put in the hands of John Bayner in hand

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<v Speaker 2>select couple of other people.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, well, this was really interesting, and you're raising the

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<v Speaker 1>question of whether direct democracy is a good thing, and

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<v Speaker 1>whether or not citizens are capable of kind of reading

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<v Speaker 1>legislation of this kind and understanding all the repercussions and

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<v Speaker 1>the ramifications of a certain initiative. And there are definitely

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<v Speaker 1>people out there who would consider themselves, you know, pro

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<v Speaker 1>democracy and really care about what the people think. But

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<v Speaker 1>they still say, like direct democracy could be problematic because

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<v Speaker 1>these decisions are potentially too complicated or multicaceted to put

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<v Speaker 1>in the hands of the people. And so you know,

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<v Speaker 1>these can be instances and again depending on how these

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<v Speaker 1>are written, and not all of us have law degrees,

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<v Speaker 1>whether we use them or not, you know, it could

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<v Speaker 1>be problematic for sure. And there are definitely people who

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<v Speaker 1>are opposed to kind of ballot initiatives and direct democracy

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<v Speaker 1>in general for these reasons. They think it could be manipulated.

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly they can. Now now in terms of you deal

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<v Speaker 2>a lot within your study, which is fascinating. I'll encourage

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<v Speaker 2>my listeners to take a look at it. My producer

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<v Speaker 2>will put it on my blog page fifty five cars

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<v Speaker 2>dot com. The language that you use and the word difficulty,

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<v Speaker 2>the complexity of the language. So yeah, boiled down. I

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<v Speaker 2>got to figure based upon what you've explained to me,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course I read it. The more difficult the

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<v Speaker 2>languages to understand, the again, the less likely is someone

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<v Speaker 2>who's going to is someone who's going to embrace it

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<v Speaker 2>like scratch my head, I don't get it. I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to go with no.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly exactly, so well, you know that's but you know

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<v Speaker 1>some of this too, is that this varies by state,

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<v Speaker 1>like and some of these ballots, and again this goes

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<v Speaker 1>into the challenges of direct democracy, is that some of

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<v Speaker 1>these ballots can be written, you know, with they have

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<v Speaker 1>more flexibility with how they're written, and politicians can write

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<v Speaker 1>them to kind of appeal to or try to explain

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<v Speaker 1>or make more accessible the ideas there is. But some

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<v Speaker 1>of these ballot propositions in certain states go directly into law,

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<v Speaker 1>so they necessarily have to be written in this legally

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<v Speaker 1>sort of fashion, and that, one could argue, makes voters

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<v Speaker 1>even less prepared to vote their preferences on that matter.

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<v Speaker 2>So, in terms of using your study as a guide

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<v Speaker 2>for those who are proponents of or opponents of any

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<v Speaker 2>given legislation, does your study help, you know, facilitate an

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to create a broaden understanding of issues. Does it

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<v Speaker 2>suggest you know that you can market or buy ads

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<v Speaker 2>sufficient enough to sway the vote one way or another,

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<v Speaker 2>or really does it come down to securing the endorsement

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<v Speaker 2>of one party or the other.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there are cynical and stimistic views of this research.

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<v Speaker 1>But what I will say is, and this is like

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<v Speaker 1>a thesis of all of my work, is I am

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<v Speaker 1>just an advocate for I think people should better understand

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<v Speaker 1>and be engaged with kind of the political process. They

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<v Speaker 1>should know what they're voting for, and they should be

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<v Speaker 1>able to kind of understand and when we use certain

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<v Speaker 1>kind of language tricks to potentially impair that understanding, whether

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<v Speaker 1>again for a bad intention or you know, just something

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<v Speaker 1>you're not even thinking about reasons, whatever those reasons are,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, it should cause us to reflect

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about how we can make the public.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we need to meet the public where they are,

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, politics is in the service of us,

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<v Speaker 1>and language is one way to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I just wish it was higher on people's

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<v Speaker 2>you know to do list, paying attentions to matters political

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<v Speaker 2>because it impacts every single one of us. Hillary Schulman, PhD,

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<v Speaker 2>Associate Professor in the School of Communication at de Ohigh

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<v Speaker 2>State University. Check out the study if you care too

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<v Speaker 2>at fifty five krc dot com. Hillary, has been a

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<v Speaker 2>real pleasure having you on the program today. I enjoyed

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<v Speaker 2>our discussion me as well. Thanks for having me, It's

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<v Speaker 2>been a real pleasure. Take care of yourself eight eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>fifty five KRCD Talk Station more coming up, including, of

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<v Speaker 2>course Bottom of the Hour judge and An Apolitano, who

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<v Speaker 2>you can stick around right here at fifty five krc

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<v Speaker 2>DE talk station.

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