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Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists in this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to have a conversation with Sarah Tulane. She

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is the executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. Now

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I'm going to talk about what that is, what it does,

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and why. Sarah. Welcome, Good to see you, Hi, Seth.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: Creator meaning content creator for what the secular movements? I mean,

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frame the organization, give me the mission statement for lack

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of a better word, if you would, sure.

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Speaker 3: The Creator Accountability Network is an organization that uses restorative

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justice approach to helping content creators. That's where Creator comes from.

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Community leaders and members of those communities prevent harmful behavior

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and address it.

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Speaker 2: When it happens, all right, so let's let's just go there.

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We in the secular movement have seen instances where there

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have been inappropriate behaviors, even a few instances of predatory behaviors. Right,

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we haven't been immune for many of the scandals or

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or even just I don't know, just inappropriate stuff that

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has been seen, whether it's within a free thought group

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or at a convention or something. It's one of the

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reasons that a few years ago we saw code of

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conduct guidelines posted actually in the programs or near the

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entrances of all these things, because we wanted to make

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sure that all the bases were covered. Everybody knows what

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the rules are. But is that sort of I don't know.

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The genesis of all this was that the inspiration we

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have seen shit go down, and now we want to

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try to get in front of it.

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Speaker 3: Quite literally, we have seen shit go down, and we thought,

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you know, there are every time something like this goes down,

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you think to yourself, how could it have been prevented?

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What could have stopped this from happening earlier on? I

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see a lot of those conversations happen every time something

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like this goes down. What was done to prevent it,

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what was done to try to address it. Our organization

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does both. We work to prevent harassment and abuse and

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unethical behavior, and we work to address it and help

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people work through it when it does happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, give me some situationals. I heard the word harassment,

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and I heard the word unethical behavior. Give me some

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examples of the stuff that sort of the radar is

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out for. Okay, so.

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Speaker 3: There's not a lot of support to help with harassment

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and abuse that doesn't actually, let's say, violate the law.

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These things are spectrums of behavior where you can go

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from just general discomfort, things that we recognize do push

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people out of our communities and out of our movements,

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all the way up to things that are egregious crimes.

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Restorative justice addresses a broad spectrum of things, whether their

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crimes or not, so we can address things that are

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more minor or more major, things where people are hoping

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to receive education to address and prevent future occurrences of

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that behavior, and also to help repair harms that have

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been caused, whether that's through statements of apology or sharing

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education that someone has learned with other people.

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Speaker 2: All Right, So one of the I'm going to play

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devil's advocate here and everybody go with me. Two words,

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witch hunt. All right, find anybody, anybody who's got to

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beef hunt with somebody. They're going to come to you

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and they're going to be like, that person's terrible, and

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then you're going to go and nuke them from orbit

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and we're going to destroy their lives. This is probably

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one of the first things that we're going to see

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in common sections. Let's get in front of that. Is

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this the case.

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Speaker 3: We actually help prevent witch hunts? We call it more

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unsubstantiated accusations, So unsubstantiated does not mean untrue. It just

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means we don't know what's going on yet, and accusation

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is out there. A lot of times, the court of

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public opinion is one of the worst places to litigate

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something like this. Even when a harm has occurred. Victims

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who try to come forward can find themselves in a

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really scary position. A lot of times, if you're coming

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forward in a public space, you're coming forward against somebody

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who is a leader in the community, who has a

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lot of support, and people have a lot of motivated reasoning,

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even biases, so there's a lot of motivation to let's say,

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go after the character of the person who's coming forward,

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or to question what they did, what they said, why

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did they say it? So a lot of victim blaming

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happens there. And then on the other hand, people who

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do want to address these issues and support it will

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come out in support of the person making the allegations,

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and they'll come after your content creator. Why don't you

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understand how this is impacting our move Why don't you

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understand how this is pushing people out? Why don't you

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understand how this impacted this one person. A lot of

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times your community fractures, and what you're left with is

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the people who supported the you know, whatever the allegations were,

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tend to leave or get really quiet. They don't feel

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safe anymore. And the people who stay are the people

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who more backed you, but might also have more biases

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and might also, you know, be less willing to believe

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or hear out somebody who says, hey, something that happened

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to me.

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Speaker 2: Maybe witch hunt's the wrong word. I mean a lot

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of people on a witch hunt weren't just out to

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screw somebody over because they were being vindictive. They literally

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believed in witches maybe that's a whole other I was

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looking sort of groping. For god, I don't want to

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use the word groping, let me use a different ter

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forgive me, but we've seen you that's not better. That's

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somebody goes to a convention and there's a we'll call

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it a power dynamic because that's the phrase that is

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often used when we've people who are speakers or influencers

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who have then traded in on that influence to try

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to gain access, even sexual access to an attendee. We

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have to admit that this in the past has happened.

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And you know, these people did not go to a

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convention because they wanted to be hit on. They went

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because they wanted to go to the convention and learn

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things and have a good time, which brings us back

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to the codes of conducts. But when we talk about

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those types of inappropriate behaviors, you have seen examples of

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the power dynamic and people who have sort of abused

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their influence to try to I don't know, invite somebody, Hey,

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come up to my room, honey, kind of thing. I mean,

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we've seen that happen. Unfortunately, right we have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Creator Accountability Network is an opt in model.

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So content creators leaders join us, and when they do,

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they receive trainings on harassment and abuse prevention and bystander intervention.

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But we specifically put them through scenarios where we have

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them think what would I do in the scenario, What

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does the power dynamic do in this scenario? How does

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it impact the person I'm talking to. It's not that

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you can never interact with other people. It's not that

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you can never forge relationships. It's that you have to

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be mentally mindful and aware of your power dynamic within

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these situations and what the other person might be there for,

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making sure that you are incredibly easy to say no to,

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and that you're always seeking positive, affirmative, enthusiastic consent for everything,

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for a conversation, for you know, hanging out together at

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the bar, for whatever you're doing, that you're welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's funny we're both managing our language carefully because the

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other side of this coin is, and I've said this

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since I have become an activist, you know, we are

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all adults in the room and we are going to often,

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let's say we are single, or we're looking for a

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connection of any kind, we're probably going to find that

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in whatever circle that we exist in. So if you

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are a secular person, you're an atheist, you or whatever,

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and you interact in those circles. A convention might be

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part of that circle. You might meet someone and you

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develop there's a spark there and before you know what,

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you are having a drink and then you say, hey,

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would you like to have dinner? And so a lot

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of us who were like, well, you know, we talk

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about being liberated and getting other people from getting into

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our bedrooms and telling us what to do and how

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to operate, and you know, it's none of your damn

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business kind of thing, and it's this weird situational thing

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where we're like, okay, are we adults in the room

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and everybody's giving enthusiastic consent? Or is it sort of

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lopsided in some way and manipulative in some way? And

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your organization has a process to try to determine intent.

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Would that be a way to say it.

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Speaker 3: Somewhat? So, people who are credentialed creators we do have,

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you know, after all of the trainings that they've taken,

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which is proactively trying to prevent harmful behaviors and helping

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them navigate ethically complex situations. We have a reporting system

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for people who feel that they have been harmed, and

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that reporting system includes a hotline that they can call

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that is staffed by victim advocates. It includes you can

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also fill out a form on our website. We have

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a team of professional investigators who will conduct interviews and

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get all sides of the story, all the evidence that's available.

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Our ethics panel will sit down and parse through it.

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You know, did our content creator miss something? Is their

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education that they clearly need. So they just need to

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hear the perspective of this person so that they can

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understand that this behavior in this situation caused this kind

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of impact. And so then at the end, our mediations

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team will sit down with them and talk with them

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about whatever the situation happened to be, what was reported,

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What did the person report was the impact on them?

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Because clearly, if someone has called us, something has gone wrong,

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and any of our credentialed creators don't like if you've

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come to us to be credentialed, you don't want to

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cause harm, even unintentionally. It may not have, you know,

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been what you wanted, but you want to at least

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make it right.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I get that even those who didn't intend to

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blow it, you know, to overreach to make somebody else

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feel from endus.

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Speaker 3: Leaps signs all the time. When we're interacting with people

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that we like, that we have attractions to, we're very

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motivated to hear what we want to hear, see what

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we want to see. We help people be aware of

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how to ethically, you know, navigate situations like that, stay

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within their codes of conduct, make sure that they have

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affirmative positive consent, and that people can opt out at

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any point in time very easily. But you know, when

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things go wrong, we're also there to help.

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Speaker 2: I like the model for a few reasons. First of all,

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and I understand if someone feels that they have been

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as someone's acted inappropriately to them or around them, and

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they don't feel like anybody's really listening, their first instinct

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might be to sound the alarm on the internet, to

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go on social media and say, holy shit, this person

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did this and this and this, and if you know them,

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if your friends, you should, and everybody loses their mind

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and then the other person rallies their people. The internet

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is an arena for escalation and what you guys provide

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is a listening year. You provide tools, and you're kind

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of an honest broker. You know, you're you're not one

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side or the other. You want to be on the

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right side, but you're in many ways on the de

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escalation front. And I like that. I really like that

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vibe that you guys have.

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Speaker 3: De Escalation is like my keyword for the past three months.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've seen what I'm talking about, right, I mean,

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people just go online and before you know it, it's

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all caps and fuck you and you're dead to me.

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And I mean we just go from zero to the

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red zone.

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Speaker 3: People forget that there's a human being on the other

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side and they don't get to see the impact of

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their words, which in those situations, if anybody has ever seen,

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I feel like most of your listeners have seen at

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least one or two instances of a drama exploding, Like

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what's happening to those people, all the people involved. They

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are being flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. They don't sleep,

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they don't eat. It causes severe mental harm, physical harm

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to all sides. And then you have thousands of strangers

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turning their half formed opinions or their opinions that are

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only informed by half truths, you know, turning that against you.

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And it's a very stressful and challenging situation to be

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in any time you're in it.

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Speaker 2: I want to continue with Sarah Tulin of the Creator

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Accountability Network. I've got more questions about what to do

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when somebody does wrong to us or vice versa. What

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happens if we don't think it's fixable, What happens if

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we think some people are irredeemable. I don't know. Let's

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talk more after this. Are you a fan of true stories,

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interesting history, celebrity trivia, true crime, weird news, and you're

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going to love my podcast True Stories with Seth Andrews

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00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,200
and I'm your host, Seth Andrews, releasing five minute podcast

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00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,519
vignettes three times a week. Search True Stories with Seth

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Andrews on Spreaker and all major podcast apps, or visit

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the website True Stories podcast dot com. Thank you so

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much for listening today, and thanks for your support on Patreon, Patreon,

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dot com, slash. Seth Andrews continuing now with my special guest,

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Sarah Toulein, executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. I

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think two it's difficult to know, as we are not clairvoyant.

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If i'm you know you and I are speaking to someone,

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we don't know where they are in their lives. They

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may have some extremely raw nerves based on a background

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previous abuse, bad relationships, bad experience with another influencer, so

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that may have already supercharged their perception of what's going

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to happen next. And that's totally valid, but it's not

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information that we can really into it because we cannot

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read minds. And then if there was someone who did

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something just stupid or or they didn't mean to harm,

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it doesn't mean they're evil. It just means maybe there's

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some education that needs to take place. Some people would

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call that a sellout. You know, hey, someone acted inappropriately

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to me, and now you're going to give them a pass.

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You're going to let them take a workshop, and they're

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going to get off the hook with the pad on

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the wrist. You know, how dare you? What would you

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say to them?

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Speaker 3: That's a common criticism of restorative justice is that it

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is in some measure of fender centric, So its goal

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is not to you know, cancel or get retribution. It's

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not an eye for an eye. It is about recognizing,

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you know, what laws we're in this person that we

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can help them overcome, and how can we help them,

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you know, recognize the behavior and its impact, and then

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correct the behavior for the future so that they can

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stay in the community and be safe and healthy people

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to be around, while also looking at the person who

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was harmed and helping address their needs. What does it

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take for them to feel safe around this person? What

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does it take to keep both people in the community

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so that we're not having to choose one over the other.

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It's not always possible.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I was going to ask Sarah, is

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there there's got to be a line? I mean, somebody's

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just a douchebag, somebody just to acige horribly to work, somebody,

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somebody endangered somebody else. I mean, there's a line.

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Speaker 3: I'm very I'm very fortunate and that running the Creator

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Accountability Network, the people who come to us specifically to

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sign up are asking for that feedback. They are saying, Hey,

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if I've harmed somebody, I would like to know about it.

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I would actually like to make it better.

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Speaker 2: So okay, well, I'm on. I totally get that. I mean,

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but beyond our organization it's totally fair. In the past,

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if we have seen somebody come forward and they're just

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not somebody we want to be around, and we don't

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want others to be around in that way because we've

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seen a pattern of behaviors. I mean just generally, there's

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a line right where you're like, ah, no, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, there has to be Those are called boundaries. You

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have to set boundaries in any community. You have values,

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you have Here's how we're allowed to treat people, Here's

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how we're not allowed to treat people, and here are

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the boundaries. If you want to be in our community,

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you stay within them. And if you are going to

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insist on behaving with outside of those boundaries, you are

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not a part of the community any longer. The boundaries

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are what create the community.

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Speaker 2: Talking here with Sarah Tulan, executive director of the Creator

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Accountability Network, Well, Sarah, how do you vet the people

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that are part of the network.

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Speaker 3: People come to us to be credentialed, So if you

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are passionate about, you know, having a safe and ethical community,

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you can come join. We do not sit down and

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come through everybody's content for every last problematic thing they've

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ever said or done, but we'll take a cursory look,

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like what's the topic of the content, what are the

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issues that are likely to arise. So if you've got

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culture war issues, let's say, or social justice issues, you're

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going to have certain topics and you're going to probably

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encounter certain you know, criticisms or be wading into certain waters.

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If you make content that's about cars, like, different issues

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are at play there. So if you're passionate about what

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we do, you can come join. We don't have any

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restrictions on belief systems or any other identity.

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Speaker 2: Are you saying that anybody in any influencer doing content

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on any subject anywhere could come to you or are

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you more focused on the secular movement?

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Speaker 3: We came from the secular movement a lot of us,

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like overwhelmingly just the communities that we were part of,

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So naturally that's where people know us. That's where you know,

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most of our creators come from. It's a network, so

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it spreads the message further and further and further, and

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so people who are not secular could absolutely come as

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long as their content is still you know, ethical follows

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what we would consider it to be like important values

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of ours. We're not going to credential Alex Jones, for instance,

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unless we sit down with him and go through, like,

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you know, all the things that are wrong with his

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content and he wants to fix it.

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Speaker 2: All that's tough for me, Sarah. That's time. I mean

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Alex Jones is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because Jones came to us and we said, oh, well,

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we can't credential you because your content is really, really

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really unethical. You want to sit down and talk about

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all the you know, things that are wrong with your content,

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We can do that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and we can fix Sarah, hang on, all right,

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So Alex, let's let's do this. Let's say I love it.

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Speaker 3: Let's say credential Alex Jones.

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Speaker 2: What would it tay like if you and I I

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think are along the same lines that we've all had

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terrible ideas of some kind, some worse than others. And

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the goal is to rescue people from brainwashing, from bigotrigue,

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from hate, from bad behaviors, from from being you know,

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problematic in so many The goal is not necessarily to

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see everybody decimated, although I'm not convinced everybody can be reached,

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we do want to see rescue, right, So I would

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allow I got to be so careful because Alex Jones,

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to me is just just causes the bile in my mouth.

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Just the man is a monster, Okay. Alex Jones has

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an epiphany, okay, and realizes how wrong he has been,

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and there's a massive sea change in his heart and mind.

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He throws himself down at the feet of society and says,

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I have done massive amounts of harm. I will commit

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the rest of my life to trying to fix some

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of what I have broken. And if he was to

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do that, help me.

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Speaker 3: Justice is hard.

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Speaker 2: Help me, Sarah, I mean, does does the does our

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door crack open?

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Speaker 3: Let me put this in perspective. Let me put this

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in perspective, rank you. Restarative justice approaches have been used

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in apartheid areas, in places where the side has happened,

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where people exist in the same villages and have to

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you know, coexist and find ways to move forward together

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as a community. It can be used to help people

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work through sexual assault, murder of loved ones and family members.

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So could we sit down with Alex Jones, And you know,

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it's not saying that anyone owes him forgiveness or that

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anyone owes him anything at all. It's about him recognizing

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the impact that his stuff has had and then figuring out,

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how on earth do I go about, you know, untangling

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this web I have woven.

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Speaker 2: I get this. So there's not a requirement for other

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people to say, Okay, well now it's all you know,

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no harm, no foul, that it's really about him.

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Speaker 3: If you're going to take accountability, you've got to recognize

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that that's an action you take. You don't expect anything

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from anybody else. You may not get anything from anybody else,

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and if you do, you're very lucky. But it's you saying,

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regardless of the responses from everybody else, this is what's right,

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and this is what I'm going to do to make

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it right.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like I'd spoken about this a few years ago,

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about these former Nazis, right, the white supremacist I forget

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his name off the top of my head, Batiata swastika

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actually tattooed to his face, and he was just filled

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with venom, and in the course of his life realized

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that he had been wrong, and he spent a year

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and a half having those hate tattoos lasered off of

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his body. It was just a horrifying process, but he

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endured the whole thing and then committed the rest of

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his life to countering the white supremacy and the bigotry

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and speaking out against the Klan and doing all those

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other things. The people that he had wronged when he

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was a racist have no obligation to forgive him or

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give him any quarter, but he is now working in

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a restorative justice capacity to try to undo the damage

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done and to try to speak to better values. Am

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I on your page, Sarah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and helping other people also leave those hate

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filled spaces and do better.

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Speaker 2: Let's just talk philosophically here. I have heard it said,

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and I don't think I agree. I understand where it

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comes from. But some people say intention doesn't matter, it's

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only the results. So if you harm somebody with the

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best of intentions, the harm is still real. I think

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that's true. Like my mother and father, fundy evangelical, hell

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fire preacher type people. They were sincere. They had the

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best of intentions to train up a child, but they

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did some harm, real harm, and their good intentions don't

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negate that. But I think you treat somebody acting with

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an intent to help, even if they're wrong or brainwashed them.

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I think differently than you would with someone who was

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operating with malice. Intention does matter to me? Does it

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matter to you?

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Speaker 3: I love this question. Intention can be very important to

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communicate to the other side. It can help sometimes relieve

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some of the pain that comes when somebody thinks that

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that impact was actually intended to No, oh, it was

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an accident. To some degree, it can help them at

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least understand the perspective of the other person. And understanding

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the perspective of the other person engaging some empathy, whether

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you were the person who caused the harm or the

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person who received the harm, just understanding where the other

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person is coming from helps you, guys, get to more

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of the same page, more of like here's the reality,

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and it helps. I don't know how to describe it,

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but it helps kind of like sometimes loosen some of

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the the hold that that pain has on you. If

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that helps. But you know, in terms of the impact,

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if you've caused an impact to somebody, you know we

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can help you find ways to restore to repair that harm.

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Because you don't get out of that just by saying oh,

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I didn't mean to You still have to take actions.

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You still have to acknowledge and validate that you caused harm.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's finish here by really defining what's going on,

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so as I understand it and correct me. You got

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to use small words with me when you speak, use

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your hands, talk to me like you would a child, Sarah. Okay,

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So if someone, if somebody just wants to get in

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front of it and say whatever I do. I want

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to be a good steward like I feel this. I

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know so many people in the movement feel this. It's

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an honor to do what we do. We know we

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are in some ways influencers. We want to make sure

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that we are really good stewards of that and remain

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accountable because we are public figures setting an example blah

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blah blah. And so someone like me comes to you

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and I say, look, I will go through your program.

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And then if somebody anywhere was to have an issue,

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rather than I don't know, nuke me on Facebook or

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00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,799
maybe contact me directly and tell me what a piece

468
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:36,319
of shit I am or whatever, you would be a

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resource where they could actually go through you, and then

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you are able to see through the fog of war.

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You're able to provide kind of guidelines, and the same

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is true for other people if they want to go

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through and sort of set themselves up with a tool

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set for problem solving and getting in front of all

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of this. Have I understood, Sarah?

476
00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:03,599
Speaker 3: Yes? And I want to really emphasize our position as

477
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:07,279
that neutral third party in between, because if somebody is upset,

478
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,200
sometimes they can come at you with a lot of heat.

479
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,880
They can bring that to us, and we can absorb

480
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,519
that impact instead and just hand the information to the

481
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:21,880
other person. It can really reduce the instinct to be defensive,

482
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,119
and it can reduce the I don't want to say

483
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:28,960
splash damage, but like the impact that you receive when

484
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,279
someone comes and calls you a bunch of names in

485
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:35,839
your inbox to be able to say, anybody who's got

486
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,359
an issue, please go, let can know. I actually want

487
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,759
you to please go. Let can know because they'll help

488
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,079
me parse through it and they'll help me make sure

489
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:44,160
that I do a good job and that I have

490
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,559
good information. Because I also feel like in this day

491
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,799
and age, people have a lot that matters to them,

492
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:54,240
and they might come to you with an issue that's

493
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:58,400
very important to them about your content, but that maybe

494
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:03,160
isn't quite to big ish to you, getting to connect

495
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,759
you with different you know, resources or education, or just

496
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,000
define where you want your content to bend for people

497
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:13,559
versus where you've got to say, you know, I do

498
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,480
understand that that's you know, like I've had people say

499
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,480
you shouldn't call anyone stupid. This is a word that

500
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:25,039
can be ablest, it can be impactful, but other people

501
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:27,680
are going to draw their lines in different places and say,

502
00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:29,599
you know, it's part of my humor, it's part of

503
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,799
my like vibe, or I just want to be able

504
00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:35,839
to say when I think something is stupid.

505
00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:41,319
Speaker 2: We're not Marjorie Taylor Green appears on my radar and

506
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,480
you will hear the word it's part of my lexicon.

507
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: We we are not micromanagers of these things. These are

508
00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:53,759
things that are for the content creator to decide for themselves.

509
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:55,160
What kind of content do I.

510
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: Want to create?

511
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: You will naturally curate an audience who likes to listen

512
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,119
to you content, and together you guys figure out where

513
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,799
are our boundaries? What kind of content do we create?

514
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,200
The Creator Accountability Network is extremely supportive of all kinds

515
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,039
of transgressive art. Transgressive arts tiptoes right up to all

516
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,359
the boundaries onlines, and sometimes it crosses over, and we're

517
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,799
there to help people recognize when it's gone too far,

518
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:24,759
when it's crossed something, when they just didn't know something

519
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:26,200
and they misstepped.

520
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,119
Speaker 2: Transgressive art is a term I've never heard before. I'm

521
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:34,880
got to chew on that one. Like I'm the mister

522
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,319
Rogers of the movement, right, Nobody worries about me. I mean,

523
00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:42,240
there occasionally I'll get somebody who gets themselves in a wad,

524
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:45,799
but really, I'm not the guy that people go to

525
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:50,400
for controversial content. Doesn't make any sense, you know, just

526
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,920
this vanilla type dude.

527
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:57,039
Speaker 3: But think of all the comedians that you know, Yeah,

528
00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,440
like just being a comedian, a comedian in j general,

529
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:04,680
you are likely making some sort of transgressive art. You

530
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,240
are making some sort of jokes that are going to

531
00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:08,920
bother somebody.

532
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:11,519
Speaker 2: I mean, the envelope is there, and part of their

533
00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:13,720
job is to push it and sometimes push through it

534
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:16,039
and push past it. And I think in a lot

535
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:19,720
of cases, good for them, right, And in some other cases,

536
00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:22,440
especially when I think George Carlin is talking about, when

537
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,559
they're punching down toward marginalized groups and people under threat,

538
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,519
that's when I think we cross another one of those lines,

539
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:33,559
but it's situational. I know a lot of it is subjective.

540
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,880
One more short break and then I'm going to connect

541
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,200
you or Sarah will connect you to the Creator Accountability

542
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,880
Network if you want. You can sort of go through

543
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,680
the program either if you create content on YouTube, TikTok, etc.

544
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,200
Or you're on the other end of those streams. Stand

545
00:32:51,240 --> 00:33:01,200
by talking here with Sarah tu Leans as the executive

546
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:09,240
director of the Creator Accountability Network. How do people participate?

547
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,519
If someone wanted to reach out, contact sign up begin

548
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:16,160
the process, how would they do so?

549
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: You can go to our website, Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org.

550
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,319
We've got links all over the place. If you are

551
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,759
a content creator or a community leader, you can sign

552
00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:31,160
up to start the credentialing process. If you are a

553
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:36,200
community member who's experienced harm, you can call our hotline.

554
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,599
If the person who caused the harm is a credentialed creator,

555
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:44,759
we can then work our program with our investigators, our

556
00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:48,240
ethics panel, our mediators and help resolve that issue. If

557
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:53,039
they're not credentialed, you can still make a report. Our

558
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,480
victim advocates can still talk to you on the hotline

559
00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:57,960
and maybe help you find any local resources if you

560
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:01,000
need so, if you need a crisis, if you need

561
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:04,400
medical care, if you just need, you know, to talk

562
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,800
through whatever happened. That report can still stay in our database.

563
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,639
We won't do anything with it, but if that person

564
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:16,039
gets credentialed later on, we can come back and address

565
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:16,559
that issue.

566
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: Then, last thought, I was just reading an article by

567
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:25,239
the editor of the Skeptic magazine, and there was somebody

568
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,159
on TikTok who was unfairly editing him or deep faking

569
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,880
him or something endorsing flat earth, and so he had

570
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,119
to publish an article saying this is not me. I

571
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,840
am not a flat earther. So another layer to this

572
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,239
onion is we are moving into the era when anybody

573
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,199
anywhere can be made to do and say anything, and

574
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,559
we've got to somehow navigate what happened and what is

575
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:56,440
real and who's hiding behind. Oh, I didn't really do it,

576
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,239
it's AI And then what if they didn't really do

577
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,639
it and it's a I mean, I don't know. It's

578
00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:03,800
the wild West out there, Sarah. Do you guys ever

579
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,199
talking about that kind of stuff.

580
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,519
Speaker 3: That's a very interesting question. I've never had to think.

581
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,400
I've never had to think, what if our content creator

582
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,239
did something bad and then claims that it was really

583
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,800
just AI and a deep fake and no I didn't.

584
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:22,159
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. We saw I think Donald Trump did it.

585
00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:27,320
Somebody had a video record of them saying or doing

586
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,239
something that was either ridiculous or offensive, and it was like, Ah,

587
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,199
that's just Ai. My enemies are going after me. And

588
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,280
it's this weird, strange new world where, you know, beyond

589
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,079
our eyes and ears, we have to be skeptics in

590
00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,679
this whole deeper way. I do think it's possible to

591
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,519
determine what has and has not happened, but it's going

592
00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:51,320
to take a lot of due diligence. Fortunately, it sounds

593
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,880
like you guys are really committed, and I love the

594
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,320
idea of the Creator Accountability Network. I'm in sign me up.

595
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,519
Let's you know, let me help. I don't know how

596
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:02,559
old the program is, but I'd like to be I'd

597
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:04,000
like to be a part of that. I think it's

598
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,880
pretty cool and I think it sends a message to everybody. Look,

599
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,800
we're all acting in good faith, we all want the

600
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,840
same thing. We're all human, and I think this is

601
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,639
our way of assuring you that that is very much

602
00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:18,440
the case, any final thoughts on the program or the

603
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,639
group before we call it a night, Just.

604
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: To reiterate that the more people who join and sign up,

605
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:34,840
the more word of us spreads. So you joining, you

606
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,880
having me on, I'm very grateful because it helps other

607
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,519
people hear about us. If anybody who's listening is passionate

608
00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:46,039
about this concept about keeping our community safe and wants

609
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,920
to volunteer with us, we have a lot of needs

610
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,440
for volunteers because we are expanding exponentially, we're growing a lot.

611
00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:59,239
We pay for victim advocacy training for volunteers, So if

612
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,480
you are past about victim advocacy would like to become one,

613
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,800
we can help you become a victim advocate so we

614
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,480
help there be more victim advocates in the world. But

615
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:14,119
also if you have any skills and investigations, or are

616
00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:18,280
interested in ethics or mediation, or just really good at

617
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,519
managing social media. If you're passionate about our mission at all,

618
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,079
we can find a space for you. You can come

619
00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:29,199
volunteer with us. We've got a volunteer form on our website.

620
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,440
If you're passionate and don't have time to volunteer, but

621
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,199
you have extra money. We are a nonprofit and people

622
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,119
don't pay for our services. We do this work for

623
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,400
free for content creators. We give these trainings for free.

624
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,960
We credential people for free. We do all our investigations,

625
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,480
all our mediation, all our work for free for them.

626
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,920
So we are entirely supported by our community members. So

627
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,039
we need combinations of you know, small dons who donate

628
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:05,920
monthly on recurring donations or large donations. We just had

629
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,719
a fundraiser in April. We've got another one coming up

630
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,039
in either October or November. So if you want to

631
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:15,760
support us financially, we really need the help.

632
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: Sarah Tootline of the Creator Accountability Network Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot

633
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,360
org sounds like good stuff to me. Thanks for talking

634
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,480
to us and all my best with the project.

635
00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Sah.

636
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

637
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,599
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638
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:41,280
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639
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,000
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640
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:52,159
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com