1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,359 Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:44,119 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 4: We're joined today by ABC News legal analyst and former 17 00:00:49,719 --> 00:00:53,439 Senior Deputy District Attorney Matt Murphy, here to talk to 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,719 us about his fascinating career and his new book, The 19 00:00:56,759 --> 00:01:01,079 Book of Murder, A Prosecutor's Journey through Love and Death. Matt, 20 00:01:01,119 --> 00:01:02,359 thank you for joining us today. 21 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:04,079 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me. 22 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 2: And although our podcast is not a visual medium. We 23 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:10,560 do need to report that Matt is in his car 24 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,719 like a true angeline now and we saw palm trees 25 00:01:13,879 --> 00:01:16,439 a moment ago. So it's all there. You just have 26 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,159 to picture it. 27 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 6: It's where everybody spends half their life. If you live 28 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,400 in LA, in your car, grabbing around. 29 00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 4: Matt. Start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself. 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess, starting with LA. I grew up here 31 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,079 in California. 32 00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 6: I went to UCSP for undergrad went down to San 33 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,680 Diego for law school, and then I spent twenty six 34 00:01:35,799 --> 00:01:40,159 years as a deputy DA in Orange County, California. I 35 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,200 did four years in the sexual assault unit, that's seventeen 36 00:01:43,239 --> 00:01:45,599 in homicide, so twenty one years and what's called a 37 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,519 vertical unit. Orange County does things a little differently than 38 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,319 most DIA's offices in America. 39 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:53,599 Speaker 5: What they do is you get assigned cities. 40 00:01:54,159 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 6: So the typical model of a prosecutoral agency is you'll 41 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,920 have the police will investigate a crime and then they 42 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:03,840 put it on the desk of one deputy for review, 43 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,079 and they decide what charges are going to be filed. 44 00:02:06,439 --> 00:02:09,000 Somebody else appears at the arrangment. Somebody else does the 45 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:11,639 preliminary hearing or the grand jury indictment, and it goes 46 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:14,360 up this ladder, almost like an assembly line, and it 47 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,240 finally winds up on the desk of the person who's 48 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,960 going to try it. And that works fine for misdemeanors 49 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,560 or sort of low grade felonies. But in Orange County, 50 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:23,919 what they did is they thought it would be a 51 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,680 lot better for the specializing units, like the homicide unit, 52 00:02:26,719 --> 00:02:29,000 if you got the prosecutors involved from the very beginning. 53 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,960 So you get a patch, you get an area of 54 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,280 the county assigned to you. So my cities were Coast Mesa, 55 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,240 Laguna Beach, Newport Beach, and Irvine, and any murder that 56 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,439 happened in any of those cities was automatically mine. 57 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:43,719 Speaker 5: They's cut out the middleman. 58 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,199 Speaker 6: I'd get the call in the middle of the night 59 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:48,039 from the detectives, and you work with the same detectives 60 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,719 over and over again. You're able to develop a relationship 61 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:53,599 with confidence and trust, and I'd roll out to the 62 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,360 crime scene with my assigned DA investigator and you follow 63 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,560 it all the way up. You're there, oftentimes before the 64 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:02,599 body is even been moved. You're there to advise, not 65 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,719 to control the investigation, but to offer help to review 66 00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:08,639 search warrants, and sometimes you can offer a little bit 67 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,759 of advice to steer it into safe procedural or constitutional grounds. 68 00:03:13,759 --> 00:03:15,879 In other words, you can, if you're there early, you 69 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:17,800 can protect the rights of a criminal defendant to make 70 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,240 sure there's no issues with the case. 71 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 5: And yeah, and you follow it all the way up. 72 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 6: You you decide which charges to file, you meet with 73 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:27,439 the family, you present the preliminary hearing, and then you 74 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:29,439 do the trial. So I present evidence in front of 75 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:31,560 the juries and I keep the case all the way 76 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,719 through sentencing. And it was fascinating. I did it for 77 00:03:34,759 --> 00:03:37,919 a long time, and is as much as it consumes 78 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,120 your life, I still miss it every day. 79 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,639 Speaker 2: How does that system work, Matt, Who actually tells you 80 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,520 have a new case assigned? 81 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 5: Do they call you or detect texture? Yeah? 82 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,199 Speaker 6: Yeah, the detectives themselves, the police department will they've had 83 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,639 my personal cell They call me right after the murder 84 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,919 happened and let me know. And it's a little individual 85 00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:01,319 like some people in the unit. There's only eight of 86 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,080 us eight prosecutors in the homside unit at any given time. 87 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,280 In Orange County, there's about population about three million people, 88 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,599 so we saw it all when coastmas of Laguna and Newport, 89 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,039 those are all pretty small agencies and small departments. They 90 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,839 might have I don't know, maybe hundred and fifty sworn 91 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:20,399 officers at any given times. You're working with the same 92 00:04:20,439 --> 00:04:23,600 detectives over and over and you so I'd get the 93 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:26,560 calls from the detectives because you get to know them. 94 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,480 When you last serial killer case I tried, for example, 95 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,480 we were in a trial on that for six months. 96 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,839 So you'll have the investigator sitting right next to you 97 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:36,759 during the trial, and so you're there that night with 98 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,879 the detective and the detectives there with you all the 99 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,199 way up through trial. Yeah, they call you because they 100 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,959 know you better than anybody else anyway. And yeah, it's 101 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,000 a better mouse drop. I really believe it's a better 102 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:48,560 way to do it. 103 00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 4: The book was absolutely fascinating, Matt I sped read it 104 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,800 in two days. I had so many questions about the 105 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,279 inner workings of this system. You just explained it beautifully. 106 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,000 I'm curious, other than the structure of the system in California, 107 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,800 what aspects of your job as a prosecutor do you 108 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,560 want people to understand by the time they're done reading 109 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,360 the book of Murder, I. 110 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 6: Hope the takeaway is some credit for all of the 111 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,639 people behind the scenes, as the da who's in there 112 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:23,759 in the courtroom with the cameras on me microphoned up 113 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:27,439 for dateline or twenty twenty or whatever it is. You 114 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:29,519 tend to get a lot of the glory from other 115 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:31,879 people's hard work. When you go to one of those 116 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:34,639 crime scenes at three in the morning, you see this. 117 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,480 First of all, you see the worst thing that a 118 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,639 human being can do to another, and you see the result. 119 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,399 There's some poor person with a who's been shot or 120 00:05:41,439 --> 00:05:44,439 stabbed or strangled or whatever. You see them on the 121 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,720 floor of the ground, that ditch whatever. And then you 122 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:50,800 see this legion of really hard working, dedicated professionals who 123 00:05:51,079 --> 00:05:54,680 have dedicated their professional career to in essence, getting justice 124 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,399 for the victims family. I can't tell you how many 125 00:05:57,439 --> 00:05:59,879 times I was there at three in the morning, out 126 00:05:59,879 --> 00:06:02,680 the side of some murder scene, waiting for the night 127 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:07,959 judge to sign the warrants, freezing cold, and nobody's complaining 128 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,800 about anything. I might have been bitching myself blooming fits 129 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,600 about how cold there was. I never, in seventeen years 130 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:16,040 heard a single complaint from any of the women and 131 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:20,519 men who were the police officers or from the crime lab. 132 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,319 They're just there, ready to do their job. And I 133 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,439 hope that's one of the big takeaways that people have, 134 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:29,680 that they understand that they're such hard working, dedicated pros 135 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,920 involved in those murder cases that never get the credit 136 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:33,800 that they're due. 137 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: I think this is the first time I've ever heard 138 00:06:36,519 --> 00:06:40,800 the expression night judge. So are there judges who are 139 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,160 assigned to the second and third shift. 140 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 6: Yeah, you need to judge who's ready to take calls 141 00:06:48,319 --> 00:06:49,639 in the middle of the night, and. 142 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 5: So they will. 143 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 6: You'll have either judicial magistrates, spirit court commissioners, or actual 144 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,360 full blown judges that are on call at night and 145 00:06:59,399 --> 00:07:02,279 they that's their job is to take those calls in 146 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:04,160 the middle of the night and to serve a warrant 147 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,480 at night. There's different criteria than a daytime warrant because 148 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:11,360 it's all about reasonableness and protecting the constitutional rights of 149 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,399 criminal suspects, which is critically important for a variety of reasons, 150 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,560 and so you got to have a judge make sure 151 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,319 that all those criterias are met and for certain things 152 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,680 can wait until daytime, which is considered constitutionally to be 153 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:27,519 a more reasonable time to serve a warrant, but certain 154 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,319 things can't. And when you've got a murder with the 155 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:33,399 killer often on the loose, that's an exigency that you 156 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:35,759 need a judge to review, because if you go into 157 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:39,040 that house and you get a cornicopia of evidence and 158 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,680 it's not lawful, your whole case may fall apart. On 159 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,360 the murder, it may get away with it. So you've 160 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,639 got to be very careful. And yeah, there's judges that 161 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:48,560 if they got a call from me in the middle 162 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,360 of the night, they're never liking that because that means 163 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:51,959 they're up for the next couple hours. 164 00:07:52,079 --> 00:07:54,639 Speaker 5: But they always answer the phone. 165 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,959 Speaker 4: One of the things that I like best about the 166 00:07:56,959 --> 00:08:01,480 book met is it's a very approachable introduction to the 167 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,639 ins and outs of the criminal justice system from a 168 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,519 side that a lot of times people maybe don't spend 169 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,560 a lot of time thinking about. We've got a ton 170 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,120 of books out there about profilers and csis, FBI agents, 171 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,319 but we don't nearly have enough about the side that 172 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,199 you work on, prosecuting defense attorneys, various other things. Do 173 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,759 you feel like you're breaking new grounds with this book? 174 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,279 Speaker 6: I hope so there are some really good books out 175 00:08:28,279 --> 00:08:31,399 there written from the inside. I think Mindehunter with John Douglass. 176 00:08:31,439 --> 00:08:33,120 I even talk about that in my book. I think 177 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,799 that's excellent. I've met him and he's a very nice guy. 178 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,399 Helter Skelter written by Vincent Bugliosi, also a really good 179 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:41,960 one like Helter Skelter, and that was written by the 180 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,639 prosecutor and he Boogliosi passed away a few years ago, 181 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:48,480 but he was the real deal. He was a prosecutor's prosecutor, 182 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:52,639 but he wasn't in a vertical unit. Like there are 183 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,679 sides that my colleagues and I got to see that 184 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,720 ledas just don't really typically just because and it's not 185 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:03,559 from lack of professionalism by them, it's just they utilize 186 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,279 a different system. 187 00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 5: So I hope. 188 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 6: So what I would really dearly love is if there's 189 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:12,519 some DA's out there, maybe elected DA's or DA's in 190 00:09:12,639 --> 00:09:16,000 smaller counties anywhere in the country, who see the benefits 191 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,200 of doing vertical homicide prosecutions, because it's just it's far superior. 192 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:22,919 The first thing I would do after filing charges on 193 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,759 a case is I would sit down with the victims' 194 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:28,440 family and give them a face and a phone number 195 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,960 that they could use, and that was a I think 196 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,799 that was really important, and that consistency is very important. 197 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:36,720 So the family have somebody to talk to as opposed 198 00:09:36,759 --> 00:09:39,759 to just that assembly line version where they got nobody 199 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:41,600 to call it. They have to bond with the detective, 200 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:44,000 and that's never good because as a prosecutor, especially on 201 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,279 the really heavy stuff, you're going to be calling them 202 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,240 at some point, they're going to be your witness, and 203 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,960 having a relationship with them where they trust you is 204 00:09:51,159 --> 00:09:53,759 way better when you go through each step that with them, 205 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,080 as opposed to coming in the ninth inning, so to speak, 206 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,799 and hey, I'm the trial lawyer and you have no. 207 00:09:58,799 --> 00:10:00,639 Speaker 5: Relationship with those people. I don't know. 208 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 6: Hopefully some people read it that have some power to 209 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,919 maybe try that as a system, because I guarantee it'll 210 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:06,399 work better. 211 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 5: Is that something that's. 212 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,399 Speaker 2: Unique to California or to Orange County, Then. 213 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 5: It's not unique. 214 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 6: I just think I think Orange County has taken it 215 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:18,879 to another level with their vertical units. 216 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:20,639 Speaker 5: So there are other places that do it. 217 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,399 Speaker 6: LA has a couple of units that do a similar approach, 218 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,360 but it's not exactly the same. 219 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 5: Like the Newport Beach, for example. 220 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:31,519 Speaker 6: My predecessor, Debbie Lloyd, had that assignment for twelve years 221 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,759 and I did it for seventeen. So what is that 222 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,519 for twenty nine years that department had two criminal prosecutors, 223 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,360 two deputy das they had to deal with. And there's 224 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:43,799 a level of consistency there which is incredibly valuable. Like 225 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:47,039 when I took over Debbie's case when I got rotated 226 00:10:47,039 --> 00:10:49,679 in a homicide, first thing she did is say, Okay, 227 00:10:49,799 --> 00:10:51,879 you need to look at this case in this case, 228 00:10:51,919 --> 00:10:53,639 and I think this one solved. And she gave me 229 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:57,600 that sort of institutional memory that you just don't get otherwise. 230 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,159 And one of those was the Bill McLoughlin case I 231 00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:02,320 write about in the book. You know that it had 232 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,519 been a cold case for well over a decade when 233 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,360 I rotated in. Because of Debbie's encouragement, right when I 234 00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:10,559 took the baton from her, we put that together as 235 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,039 a cold case. We saw that we convicted both of 236 00:11:13,039 --> 00:11:16,720 them the killers in that thing. And that's really because 237 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:19,039 of the system, I think. Plus it's hard to get 238 00:11:19,039 --> 00:11:21,320 to the homicide unit in Orange County, which is also 239 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,320 a way better way to do it. I mean, I 240 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,960 had eight over eighty. I think eighty jury trials under 241 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,200 my belt by the time I touched my first homicide. 242 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:31,679 And there's a lot of like courtroom skill and experience 243 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:35,320 that you gain that anybody would trying eighty cases, and 244 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,200 you developed reallyships with the judges who start trusting you 245 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,480 more on evidentiary calls and things like that. So you 246 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,960 Orange County is very well served by that system, and 247 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,240 I hope other jurisdictions start using it. 248 00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:49,759 Speaker 2: Those eighty cases were they while you were in the 249 00:11:49,799 --> 00:11:51,039 sexual assault unit? 250 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,399 Speaker 6: Seventeen of them more were sex cases, But you start 251 00:11:55,399 --> 00:11:58,039 out in mismeanors. I did thirty seven misdemeanor jury trials, 252 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,080 so back then, not so today, but back then, the 253 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,240 philosophy of the Orange County Gaze Office was it was 254 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:06,519 a trial office and they wanted to teach their prosecutors 255 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,399 the craft of trying cases. So there was a real 256 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,559 premium on that. They encouraged us to go watch the 257 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,759 very experienced deputies in trial and try to learn as much. 258 00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 5: As we could. 259 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 6: So I did thirty seven misdemeanors before I did my 260 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:21,679 first felony, and then I did probably one hundred bench 261 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,480 trials in juvenile court without a jury, but learning how 262 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,639 to examine witnesses and learning how to do crosses. They 263 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:29,080 are all in front of a judge, and then yeah, 264 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,159 thirty seven mismeters. Then I went to the felony panel 265 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,879 to twenty four generic felony jury trials. That's like fourth 266 00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:38,240 time DUIs or generic drug sales. It's non specialized felonies, 267 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,360 generic robberies. And then I went to sexual assault for 268 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,320 four years, and then homicide for seventeen. 269 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,799 Speaker 4: The stories that you offer in this book are absolutely stunning, 270 00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:50,000 and most of them were things that I had not 271 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:53,559 heard of before, setting aside Rodney Alcala, which of course 272 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,960 I was familiar with. You offer your readers some truly 273 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,919 egregious cases that have stayed with you over the years. 274 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,399 What would you say if you had to narrow it 275 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:08,039 down to one case that you have never been able 276 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,879 to forget or let go of. What is that one 277 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,840 back of your mind case that just stays there always? 278 00:13:14,159 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 6: Oh gosh, it's like that scene in Spinal Tap, remember 279 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,159 that where he's talking about his amplifier and this one 280 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,879 goes to eleven and he's like, why doesn't it just 281 00:13:21,919 --> 00:13:23,639 go to ten? This one goes to eleven? It's the 282 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,080 same in homicides. There are so many that are elevens 283 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,200 it's really hard to pick just one. And there's different 284 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,799 types of murders, so you've got conspiracies to commit murder 285 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:38,519 for financial gain are considered unique. It's a unique level 286 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,759 of diabolical evil for lack of a better term. There 287 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,559 it's people, and there's nothing wrong with the moral compass. 288 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,720 They just want to take a shortcut and they put 289 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:50,000 together plans to murder somebody for money. That was Daniel 290 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,879 Wosnak was that, which was an eleven. 291 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:53,879 Speaker 5: It was horrific. 292 00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 6: Then you got Tom and Jackie Hawk's out of Newport 293 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,559 with Skylar Daily Owned also an eleven. But then you 294 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:03,480 switch over to like the serial killers. Rodney Alcala, I 295 00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:05,840 had the Joseph dangel a Golden State killer. I don't 296 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,919 write about him in this book and write about him 297 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:10,440 in my next one. Actually, there are there are some 298 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:15,000 absolutely Like it's kind of like which is the best flavor, 299 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,120 which is the worst flavor? Like it's the equal elevens 300 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,919 on so many. Rodney Alcala, the Dating Game killer. That 301 00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:26,799 that one really bothers me because the State of California 302 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:29,799 caught him in nineteen sixty eight, he raped and kidnapped 303 00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:31,799 and raped an eight year old girl that was in 304 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:34,000 a coma for thirty two days and would have died 305 00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:37,399 if it wasn't for the heroic efforts of a LAPD officer, 306 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,080 Officer Camacho, who kicked the door in and literally saved her. 307 00:14:40,159 --> 00:14:42,399 But he got a life sentence in nineteen seventy one 308 00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:45,480 and they paroled him in thirty four months, and that one, 309 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:48,879 that's when that will always kind of hat my nightmares 310 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:52,759 because he killed probably one hundred people after he was 311 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,840 released by the State of California, and then they violated 312 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,720 his parole when he was with a thirteen year old 313 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:01,279 girl giving her drug in Huntington Beach. 314 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:02,759 Speaker 5: They paroled him again. 315 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 6: That guy they parolled again, and then he got arrested 316 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,840 for a rape of a fifteen year old named Monique Puoit, 317 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,320 brutal rape and near murder of her. And he was 318 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,559 arraigned on that and in front of a judge in 319 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:19,120 Riverside County, who had a legal obligation to presume that 320 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,840 the charges were true, lowered his bail so he could 321 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,279 get out, and he committed at least two more murders 322 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,600 that we know of while he was on bail. That 323 00:15:27,679 --> 00:15:31,759 case haunts me because California, we're not even drifting, we're 324 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,000 sprinting back to that revolving door criminal justice model. 325 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 5: That just it keeps me up at night. So Alcala 326 00:15:38,159 --> 00:15:39,159 is definitely. 327 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 6: One, and D'Angelo the Golden State killer that haunts my dreams. 328 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:45,720 And then there's the Samantha Running case, which is another 329 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:47,200 one that was a five year old girl who got 330 00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:50,360 kidnapped by a guy named Alejandro Avola, and he was 331 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:54,240 on He was tried for two child molests. We call 332 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,279 him two eighty eights in California penal conseection two eighty eight. 333 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:58,879 Speaker 5: He was acquitted of that. 334 00:15:58,919 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 6: The jury found him not guilty and then he went 335 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,960 out and the lesson he took away from that is 336 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,919 if you let him live, they might just turn around 337 00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:08,000 testify against you. So he wasn't going to do that again. 338 00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:10,399 So he killed his next victim. And that was another 339 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,759 one that they had him and they blew it in 340 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,639 my view, and I don't want to throw anybody under 341 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:17,000 the bus, but come on, you get a double He 342 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,440 had a double to eighty eight with two separate victims, 343 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:24,639 and you know, jury and Jeezon. That's one that really 344 00:16:24,879 --> 00:16:27,039 and G means not guilty, and that's one that just 345 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:28,120 haunts me. 346 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 5: So I guess I'm haunted by a lot of them. 347 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,159 Speaker 6: It's hard to put a one gold medal winner on 348 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,919 the diabolical awfulness of those guys. 349 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,679 Speaker 2: On the Rodney el Calla case. How does that end up? 350 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:44,679 That case stretches all the way back into the seventies, 351 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:47,720 How does that end up back on your desk in 352 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:48,679 two thousand and three? 353 00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:52,519 Speaker 6: Yeah, that went up he was convicted and tends to 354 00:16:52,559 --> 00:16:56,360 death in essentially nineteen eighty and that went up to 355 00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,480 the Calivern and Spring Court with our old Spring Court Justice. 356 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,159 Chief justice was a woman named Rose Bird. It was 357 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,720 very controversial in the state of California, and she proudly 358 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,480 reversed every single death penalty that wound up in her court. 359 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,960 So it got reversed once, it was retried again, and 360 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,079 he was since death again in nineteen eighty six then 361 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,720 and it went up, got past muster with the California 362 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:20,720 Supreme Court, went up in front of the Ninth Circuit 363 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,359 the next time and they reversed it. So it went 364 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,160 up on my desk for the third retrial. No sooner 365 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,119 was the ink dry on the return of permitted or, 366 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,960 which is the official order saying you must notice your 367 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,000 intention to retry or release this man. We started getting 368 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,200 DNA hits out of Los Angeles County. 369 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 5: We got three out of LA County, and then. 370 00:17:39,799 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 6: He was suspected of a fourth, the murder of Jill Parento, 371 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,839 that we also I decided that I wanted to take 372 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,200 a run at him for that one as well, even 373 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,039 though all the evidence had been thrown away or almost 374 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:52,200 all of it, and we convicted them of that case too. 375 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:54,200 The thing about those is when we meet with the 376 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,319 victims' families, you see this multi generational thrief that follows 377 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,160 these poor people after their loved one has been raped 378 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,000 and murdered by a serial killer. That's actually where a 379 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,519 lot of the lot of the internal pressure comes when 380 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:09,559 you're trying those cases, because you just know if you 381 00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:12,319 blow it on a if you blow it on some 382 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,440 dispute between neighbors over a fence where somebody gets drunk 383 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,480 and kills their neighbor, you're probably never going to see 384 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:19,319 that guy again. If that guy were to get out, 385 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,480 like he's probably not going to go kill his next neighbor. 386 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,359 But if you lose a serial killer or a serial 387 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,920 rapist or a prolific child sexual abuser, you're guaranteed that 388 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:31,799 somebody is going to die in the future. And that's 389 00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:33,359 where a lot of the that's where a lot of 390 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,079 the internal pressure comes. Unfortunately, on that one, we convicted 391 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,079 him and he went up dying in prison. We convicted 392 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,200 him and he was sentenced to death for the third time, 393 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:43,599 and eventually I think Alzheimer's was his official. 394 00:18:43,599 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 5: Cause of death, but he died a couple of years ago. 395 00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:49,039 Speaker 4: Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. What I really liked 396 00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:51,920 in that chapter about alcohola is you talked about the 397 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,839 fact that psycho pass, like Rodney Alcola and Ted Bundy, 398 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,119 cannot resist this opportunity to grandstand, which is why they 399 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,440 often act as our own attorneys. So you watched Rodney 400 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,880 i'l khala act as his own attorney in court? Was 401 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,079 he able to capably present a legal defense? Like? 402 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:12,759 Speaker 5: So, how did he do? Yeah? So, look, it is 403 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:14,839 a fascinating component of these guys. 404 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,799 Speaker 6: And I really am writing another I'm going to at 405 00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:18,480 least I'm going to try to another write another book, 406 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:20,759 writing another proposal, And I want to focus it on 407 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,319 exactly that sort of thing. The mind of the serial 408 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,640 killer is a mesmerizing thing. And one of the things 409 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,119 that they all seem to do is they keep some 410 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,640 sort of trophy of their kills. It's almost like they 411 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,960 can't resist doing that. And another thing is they love 412 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:39,480 to represent themselves. And I think it's a power and 413 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:42,279 control thing where it's like, if they have the power 414 00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:45,319 of being a lawyer, they can subpoena people, they can. 415 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:49,079 And it was amazing, I mean, watching Rodney, I'll call 416 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:51,240 it do that. So Number one, the guy had a genius. 417 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,880 He had a genius level IQ. He had a documented 418 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,119 mensa level genius IQ. And he graduated from uclod Fump 419 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,880 School and he was almost done with NYU Film School 420 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,799 because he was graduated from there too. After he fled 421 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:07,200 the the Tally Shapiro case, he moved to New York 422 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,240 and with a fake name. So he was a highly educated, 423 00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:17,680 very intelligent guy, and he did a very technically competent job, 424 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,559 Like he understood how to ask a non leading question, 425 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:22,759 and he understood how to do a competent cross and 426 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:27,279 like on a very like lost student technical check the 427 00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:32,000 boxes sort of way. He was totally competent in defending himself. 428 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,240 But what's fascinating from Bundy to Alcala to another one? 429 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:38,359 I did this guy Douglas Hopper, who I talked about 430 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,160 a little bit in the book. He was a serial rapist, 431 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,559 which is basically the same guy he just didn't kill. 432 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,079 They can't read the room. Whatever separates them from humanity 433 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:52,880 that makes him get off on inflicting pain also seems 434 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,519 to they can't read the jury. So he he was 435 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:03,519 at that podium asking very competent questions on cross examination 436 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:06,799 of Robin Sampso was his final victim, the twelve year 437 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:09,279 old that he murdered out on huntingmach his mother, who 438 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,880 had to go through this two times before and the 439 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:15,279 entire reppellate process and it destroyed her life this case. 440 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,400 But he's up there firing away on questions with inconsistencies 441 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,240 between now one word she used to describe something in 442 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:26,519 nineteen seventy nine versus her testimony thirty years later. But 443 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,319 all the jury saw was this creepy guy calling the 444 00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:31,440 mother of one of his victims a liar. So it's 445 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,519 a fascinating thing. And it was the same with Ted Bundy. 446 00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:36,400 He got up there like he was a law student. Technically, 447 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,720 it was great, technically, he was doing everything right. But 448 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,720 beyond the technical form of questions is the way that 449 00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:47,079 presented to a jury was you've got an absolute sadistic 450 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:50,160 monster calling somebody else a liar. 451 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 5: And it was fascinating in the alcoholic. 452 00:21:53,039 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 6: Case because there's a great Napoleon quote, never interrupt your 453 00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:58,880 enemy when he's in the process of making a mistake. 454 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:02,000 So I didn't interpose a single objection when he was 455 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:03,640 doing that because I could look over and see the 456 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,440 jury and they were just repulsed by that. And yeah, 457 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,680 it's a fascinating thing about those guys, and they really 458 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,960 do have a lot of these common threads, which is, 459 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,559 I think something that is worthy of another book. 460 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:18,519 Speaker 2: Did you find the judge looking at you, expecting you 461 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,400 to object at different points and you just sat there 462 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,160 and let him. 463 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 5: Wait destroy himself. That is a great question. That is 464 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:26,880 a great question. 465 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 6: Okay, And the answer is on a call at the 466 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,799 answer is no, because the judge was a guy named 467 00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:35,559 Francisco Bersano, who if the universe worked the right way, 468 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:38,200 that man would have lived to be a thousand and 469 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,440 he would have been a superior court judge the entire time. 470 00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:44,960 He was so masterful in the way he handled Rodnel 471 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,039 call it. He just passed away about six months ago, 472 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,160 and the world is far worse off about him. He 473 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,599 was fantastic. So he knew exactly what I was doing. 474 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,440 And I'd done two other death penalty cases in front 475 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,279 of him already who had attorneys, and he knew what 476 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:02,240 I was doing, and I knew he knew what he 477 00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:04,079 was doing, and it was like I would get out 478 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:06,279 of his way and he would let me try my case. 479 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:09,279 And it was you talk about the behind the scenes heroes. 480 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,599 That judge was as good as they come. So he 481 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:14,920 he wasn't he wanted to let me do my case 482 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,519 and he knew what I was doing, or he didn't 483 00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:20,160 want me to interrupt all call it in the process 484 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,920 and making that mistake, I think because he saw the 485 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,519 same thing that I saw. And plus you got to 486 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,720 be it's better on appeal. And it sounds strange to say, 487 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,480 because this guy was one of the most vicious, sadistic, 488 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:32,640 and prolific serial killers in American history. In fact, Anna 489 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,680 Kendrick has a new movie coming out this week on 490 00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:35,680 Netflix called One min. 491 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,559 Speaker 5: Of the Hour about all calla but you at. 492 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 6: The same time, as a prosecutor, you're ethically bound to 493 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:44,480 treat them fairly. And it's way better for appeal if 494 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:46,880 I don't object, especially in a case that's been reversed 495 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,680 twice already. So I don't want to put Persenio in 496 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,279 a position where he's going to make a ruling off 497 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:54,039 the cuff based on a courtroom objection that he might 498 00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:57,400 regret later. So it's far better for the purposes of 499 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,079 appeal to just let the psycho serial killer asked the 500 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,119 questions he wants to ask, and then we will. It's 501 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,680 just it's cleaner that way, and I figured I could 502 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:08,720 argue through it at the end, which is what we did. 503 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 4: The real WTF moment for me reading that chapter was 504 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,440 when you said that he called himself to the stand 505 00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:19,640 as a witness. I did not know that was procedurally 506 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,839 something you could do. Can you actually call yourself as 507 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,839 a witness. 508 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 5: If you are representing yourself, you can? 509 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 6: And I threw this in there in the book because 510 00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:30,200 there's an adage that you learn in law school. And 511 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,240 depending on who which professor you're hearing it from, it 512 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,079 was either Abraham Lincoln or George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, 513 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,319 and I tried to find it. I don't think any 514 00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:42,880 of them actually said it, but it is absolutely true. Nonetheless, 515 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,599 anybody who represents themselves as the saying go as a 516 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,119 fool for a lawyer and a jackass for a client. 517 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,359 And so yeah, he called himself to the stand and 518 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,839 it was absolutely surreal. So he was sworn in, and 519 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,599 it was he read questions from Rodney attorney Rodney Alcala, 520 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:06,680 who witnessed Rodney Alcala in the third person, and it 521 00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:08,759 was the way he answered it. He would read it 522 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:10,359 into the record and be like okay, and it was 523 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,240 everything but saying and that's an excellent question, and may 524 00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:15,279 I comment about how handsome you are today? 525 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,079 Speaker 5: Thank you? He was absolutely surreal. 526 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 6: And again I'm not going to object to a single 527 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:26,240 second of that because the jury is looking around going 528 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,799 what is going on right now? And Brasenio is there 529 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,119 very properly presiding over it. I'm not objecting. Gina is 530 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,079 not objecting. My trial partner, Gina Satrana from the LED's office. 531 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,519 I love and we're just we're letting him, We're letting it, 532 00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:43,359 We're letting it happen because case got reversed twice on appeal. Hey, 533 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,200 we're not going to object, you know, we're going to 534 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:47,839 create no appell of issues and anybody's gonna have a 535 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:51,400 problem with On one hand, it's horrible, but on the 536 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,960 other it is awesome because it is he was losing 537 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,759 the jury with every question when yeah, I let them 538 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:02,480 marinate in the absolute absurdity of that. And yeah, and 539 00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:05,759 it didn't have much trouble convicting him or recommending a 540 00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:06,440 death sentence. 541 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 5: All good. 542 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,319 Speaker 2: What's that clash song about? Give him enough rope? It's 543 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,920 unbelievable that it just sounds so completely bizarre and insane 544 00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:19,000 that the guy is literally asking himself repeated questions in 545 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:23,039 two different roles almost oh yeah, you know, as if 546 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:25,400 he was a split personality or something. 547 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,039 Speaker 6: But remember, as he's doing that, I got to cross 548 00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:32,799 examine him. So once he was done with this yellow pad, 549 00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:36,400 then I got to go. So I'm just sitting there 550 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,720 licking my chops. And at the same time, there's there's 551 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:43,799 different styles, and every young lawyer who's trying cases who 552 00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,759 wants to learn it. You really, you become far more 553 00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:50,000 effective when you find the style that matches your own personality, 554 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,640 and there's I would train our young proskeutors for years. 555 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,039 Speaker 5: We do training for the incoming. 556 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 6: Class of the new Fires, and I always tell him 557 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:05,559 there's that staccata aggressive kind of angry cross examination really 558 00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:08,519 works well for some people, but it probably doesn't work 559 00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:11,680 that well for you, and it certainly didn't work out 560 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,839 very well for me. I really like this sort of 561 00:27:13,839 --> 00:27:17,240 the Ashok's approach. Forgive me, mister Caul. I'm totally confused here, 562 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,359 And can you go back to that other thing or 563 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,279 you said you weren't in Huntington Beach when we have 564 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,519 your your photographs here taking the show Huntington Beach and 565 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:26,880 them from the days she went. 566 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 5: Like that sort of stuff. 567 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 6: I like that style a lot more, just almost making 568 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,960 it conversational and very friendly and like, huh, that's sure boy, 569 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,599 that you know like. But closing argument, by the way, 570 00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:41,759 is not that same town closing argument. I pretty much 571 00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:44,519 lit him on fire in the courtroom, and don't regret 572 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:45,000 doing it. 573 00:27:47,519 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 574 00:27:50,480 --> 00:28:08,319 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 575 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:09,319 mindover Murder. 576 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,279 Speaker 4: I was going to say, Matt, you just mentioned Woman 577 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,160 of the Hour, which is Anna Kendrick's new film, which 578 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,039 I'm very much looking forward to watching, And you had 579 00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:22,359 mentioned in your book that you felt it was a 580 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,319 very good example of Hollywood telling crime stories the right way. 581 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,720 What are some other series or movies that you would 582 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,359 hold up as examples of Hollywood doing the right thing 583 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:35,640 in the way that they're telling a story or the 584 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,400 way that they are shedding light on the victims or 585 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:38,960 the killers. 586 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll tell you one that was outstanding. It was 587 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,559 a Bravo series on another case that was mine. That 588 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,880 was the Dirty John series with Eric Banna and Connie Britton, 589 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,359 and Eric Banna did a masterful job of portraying John Meehan, who. 590 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:57,799 Speaker 5: Some of your listeners are proa familiar with the Dirty 591 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,079 John series. 592 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,599 Speaker 6: It's a podcast, multipart podcast, Yeah, with the La Times 593 00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:05,160 and my friend Chris Gofford, who I had lunch with 594 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,680 after We're done with that one, and I finally cleared 595 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,079 Tarra of all criminal wrongdoing at lunch with Chris, and 596 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:12,799 I'm like, dude, you have got to take a look 597 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:14,400 at this one. And I figured he'd write like a 598 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,079 Sunday expose on it. I had no idea that he 599 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:19,680 was going to turn it into Dirty John. But that 600 00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:23,119 was excellent because it's very easy for us to Monday 601 00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:26,440 Morning Quarterback Prime victims. We all do it's and I 602 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,599 think it's a psychological thing. We want to look at 603 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:30,839 a case. And that would never happen to me because 604 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,680 I'm not in a gang, or I would never date 605 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,759 anybody that's out obnoxious, or I'd never get in the 606 00:29:34,759 --> 00:29:35,759 Serial Killers car. 607 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,279 Speaker 5: But the way Eric. 608 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 6: Banna I want invited me to the premiere of that, 609 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,480 and I he had such a long receiving line. I've 610 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,400 been a fan of that guy on so many different 611 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,519 movies and I never even got a chance to compliment. 612 00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:51,279 But his portrayal was outstanding because it was it's this 613 00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:55,920 really endearing charm that a lot of psychopaths happened. Same 614 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400 thing with Rodney. That was one of the most fascinating things. 615 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,839 When he went pro per. It's like, how are all 616 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:02,640 these women getting in the car? How could they be 617 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,880 so stupid to meet him for a model and shoot 618 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,559 out and then let me tell you, talk to that 619 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:08,880 guy face to face for five minutes and it's, oh, 620 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,200 now I get it. He was handsome, he was charming, 621 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,559 he was smiling, he was quick with a joke. That 622 00:30:13,599 --> 00:30:16,200 guy won the dating game because he was charming and 623 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200 because he was funny, like that is the fascinating thing 624 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:22,119 about certain criminal defendants. So that's an example of Hollywood 625 00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:22,720 getting it right. 626 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 5: I really, I really enjoyed. 627 00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:28,599 Speaker 6: And there's it's a historical fictional thing that women of 628 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,559 the Hour, the she's they're great about portraying I'll call it. 629 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:33,960 And I think the I think the actor that portrayed 630 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:37,079 Rodney was fantastic because and I've seen it. I'm one 631 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:39,200 of the few people that has seen it. He just 632 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,480 does such a great job of switching from charming to 633 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:46,640 monstrous and he this guy friggin nails it. So but 634 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,240 I really liked Once upon a Time in Hollywood because 635 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:52,160 the Quinn Tarantino changed the ending of the Manson Murders, 636 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:54,640 and I just it's just just such a better way 637 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,119 to end it. I wish that it had ended with 638 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,519 a heroic stunt man Brad Pitt. Given those guys, they're true. 639 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,240 But you know, that was really well done. I'll tell you, 640 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:05,799 I'll tell you a thing that's out right now. I 641 00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:08,519 don't think Netflix will appreciate me saying this. But where 642 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,599 I think it's an example of Hollywood getting it exactly 643 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,119 wrong is this New Menendoz thing. 644 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 5: You get all these gen zers going, oh, look at this, 645 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,839 it's so terrible what happened to them. 646 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:21,759 Speaker 6: Everything in that series is based on what they said 647 00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:25,000 in their defense. And I would love an opportunity one 648 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,000 day to I mean, I'll debate anybody any time anywhere. 649 00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:28,799 Speaker 5: It wasn't my case. 650 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 6: I don't know every detail, but I followed it pretty 651 00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:33,119 closely as the young DA And you get a bunch 652 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:36,480 of people that watch this this Netflix special, this this 653 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,119 series and they're like, my god, they need to be free, 654 00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:42,039 and it's hey, guys, TV is sometimes what we call 655 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,200 make believe. That's one that really frustrates me. They shotgun 656 00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:48,799 murdered their mother and then said that she was sexually 657 00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,920 abusing them. It's the It is the ultimate example of 658 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,640 victim blaming. I don't believe the veracity that new letter. 659 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,119 And if it and even if it's true, if financial 660 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,480 game composes only a small portion of the motive to 661 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,039 murder something, the under California law, that's still first to 662 00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:05,079 get murder for financial gang like they like, there is 663 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,440 no convenient place that actually fits, and it's like, what 664 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:09,759 Eric forgot. 665 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,839 Speaker 5: That he wrote that letter like they was the biggest 666 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,640 case in America. 667 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 6: There's I have so many problems with what they're doing, 668 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,799 and I think Netflix blew it on that one. Personally, 669 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,000 They've done great stuff, but not I'm not a fan 670 00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:21,599 of that show. 671 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: You can see the sympathy growing for the Menendez brothers 672 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,079 since that series has hit. People are saying, oh, they 673 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,559 were wrong, they were abused, et cetera. 674 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 6: Yeah they were yeah, except that they weren't, except that 675 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,559 they literally lied to everybody. And look four years and 676 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:39,519 sexual assault guys, I can tell you right now, I 677 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:42,680 never had, nor did I ever see a. 678 00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:44,599 Speaker 5: Bio mom, a biological mother. 679 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 6: Now boyfriends stepdads every block every day, you get jaded, 680 00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:53,839 like there that is. It's so ubiquitous in the world, 681 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,799 as far as sexual abuse of children by soccer coaches 682 00:32:56,839 --> 00:33:00,279 and youth ministers and as we know, Catholic priests, and 683 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:04,200 the instance of biological mothers sexually abusing their own teenage 684 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,759 boys is almost for whatever reason, and I'm happy to 685 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,799 chalk it up to like superiority of women, whatever we 686 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,279 want to call it. It never friggin happens they women 687 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,799 will certainly be. There's certainly women who commit sex crimes, 688 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,720 especially in the context of some of these teacher cases. 689 00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:22,920 Those are all real. I prosecuted a bunch of those. 690 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,680 I prosecuted mothers, biological mothers molesting their own teenage boys 691 00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:31,440 like they described. I don't believe the kiddy Menendez did that. 692 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:34,480 Everybody wants to forget about that. I couldn't stand the 693 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,519 series far enough to even see if they left those 694 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:39,319 allegations out or if they included that. 695 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:40,839 Speaker 5: I don't believe that. 696 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 6: And it's incredibly rare, and you're talking about two men 697 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,559 when they committed that murder. 698 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 5: These guys. 699 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 6: Look, these guys reloaded the shotguns. They reloaded to shoot 700 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,359 their mom in the head. The reason we learned about 701 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,000 it and the reason there's a case called Terosov where 702 00:33:56,559 --> 00:34:01,640 the therapist patient privilege is suspended when there's an incredible 703 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:04,640 threat of somebody else getting hurt. And they were thinking 704 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,519 that Lyle was going to murder Eric's drink because Eric 705 00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:09,119 confessed the. 706 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,199 Speaker 5: Murderer, but he didn't he never said the reason why. 707 00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 6: So, so imagine that you're in therapy, you feel really 708 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,440 bad about killing your mom, and you forget to mention 709 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:19,800 that the reason you killed your mom is that she 710 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,960 was sexually abusing you, Like I'm sorry, it's just that 711 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,159 it doesn't pass the smell test on so many different levels. 712 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,960 And even so, but the way the law works and 713 00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:32,760 has for going back to the code of Hamarabi, Okay, 714 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:33,719 there are. 715 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,559 Speaker 5: Very few murders that have pure motives. 716 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,639 Speaker 6: So let's get into Let's say, for the sake of argument, 717 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:43,960 it's true number one. Having prosecuted conspiracies to commit murder 718 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:46,960 for financial gain for seventeen years, I can tell you 719 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,199 that when you're planning a murder like Eric and Lyle did, 720 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:54,519 they planned it for months. Right when you've got a 721 00:34:54,599 --> 00:34:57,000 letter written to a cousin by Eric. Remember, this isn't 722 00:34:57,039 --> 00:35:01,000 a video that shows jose and Kinny Menendez sexually abusing 723 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:04,480 their boys. This is surely from one of the killers 724 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,679 who already lied to everybody. 725 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 5: They lied to everybody. 726 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,639 Speaker 6: They lied to the nine one one operator, the responding officers, 727 00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:15,159 the detectives, the jury in the first trial, the judge. 728 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,400 They presented demonstrable falsehoods concerning the circumstances. 729 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 5: Of that murder. 730 00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:23,559 Speaker 6: And now there's a letter thirty two years later that 731 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,400 supposedly pops up, which I'm dubious of in the first. 732 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 5: Place, but it was written by Eric, was written by. 733 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 6: One of the guys, that he's one of the guys 734 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,360 who got his mom in the head and then went 735 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,239 and spent their parents' money. And it's oh, now we 736 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,159 found something that Eric in the weeks leading up to 737 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,599 the murder. We have to we believe him now. But 738 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,239 let's say that's all true. Okay, these are not only 739 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,119 adult men. Eric was a professional athlete. He was a 740 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,159 professional tennis player back then. The idea that they under 741 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,760 California law, when you're talking about motive to commit a murder, 742 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,639 you often have mixed motives like on my Daniel, I'm sorry, 743 00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:03,559 I'm my Bill mcgloffin murder, Eric Naposki was convinced, I believe, 744 00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:08,039 by Nanette Johnston that Bill mcloughin raped her. Okay, so 745 00:36:08,159 --> 00:36:12,960 she manipulated Neposki into committing this murder for the purpose 746 00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:16,480 of avenging her honor. But he also knew that she 747 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,639 stood to gain financially from that. Under California law, part 748 00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:23,559 of the motive is financial gain. You are now on 749 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:26,280 the hook for murder for financial gain. So that's one 750 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,400 of those things that's okay. So let's say that's all true. 751 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,440 So this was over revenge killing where they know they're 752 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,639 going to take their parents' money. 753 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 5: That's called first of your murder for. 754 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,599 Speaker 6: Financial gain in the state of California if it only 755 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:39,360 composes a small percent of your motive. Because if you 756 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,960 have a dispute with a neighbor over a fence at 757 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,119 the Fourth of July barbecue, if it's you really hate 758 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,599 this guy and his son is about to start dating 759 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,559 your daughter and you might be able to buy the property. 760 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,079 You can have twenty different reasons to want to kill somebody, 761 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,519 but if any of those reasons are financial gain, you're 762 00:36:56,519 --> 00:36:58,079 on the hook for financial gain. 763 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:00,519 Speaker 5: Because it has to eat ale. 764 00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:03,599 Speaker 6: If and the idea of philosophically, going back a couple 765 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,199 thousand years here is if people get in disputes all 766 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,199 the time, but if ninety percent motivation to murder somebody 767 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,840 doesn't give you to that hundred percent point where you 768 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,559 actually pull the trigger, then let's keep it at ninety percent, 769 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,559 you know what I mean. Like it's that's why it's 770 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,559 any of those motives are sufficient in and of themselves 771 00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:26,920 to satisfy the special circumstance. So like, in other words, 772 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,840 if you kidnap a kid for ransom and you also 773 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,199 want to molest them, and you're going to burn the 774 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,039 house down in the process, any one of those is 775 00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,599 good enough to satisfy the special circumstance of murder with 776 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,199 one of those special circumstance allegations. 777 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 5: Does Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm 778 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,159 it does so? So great that's true. 779 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,519 Speaker 6: Let's say that these two adult men, because they were 780 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,199 were sex used at some point by their mother, which 781 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:51,760 I do. 782 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:53,639 Speaker 5: Not believe, and that's why they did it. 783 00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 6: They were still planning and taking that money, and if 784 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,199 that composes part of it, they are guilty of exactly 785 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,119 what they were convict it of. So I don't know 786 00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:03,559 what they expect to do with this letter. I don't 787 00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:06,119 know is that And this wasn't something that was ever 788 00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:08,280 withheld by the prosecution, by the way, which is another 789 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,159 thing that's very important. The cops didn't hide it. Nobody 790 00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:14,199 sat on it. This came from the defense. So Eric 791 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,920 forgot apparently that he sent this letter to his cousin. 792 00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:20,119 That's on them that it popped up thirty two years later. 793 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,360 He wrote it, I don't believe anything that guy says, 794 00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:25,519 and then he knew that he sent it to his cousin, 795 00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:28,719 so now it pops evidence. Oh, it's new evidence. New 796 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,760 evidence is DNA, guys. New evidence is a witness who 797 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,400 comes out and says, I saw the whole thing, but 798 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,119 I was afraid to come forward, and that guy didn't 799 00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:35,360 do it. 800 00:38:35,559 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 5: That's new evidence. This is a new evidence. 801 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 6: This is evidence that the defense knew about if it 802 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,280 was real and if it existed. This is something that 803 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,480 Eric Menandez knew about the whole time because he wrote 804 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:47,199 the friggin thing. 805 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:49,119 Speaker 5: So sorry, I don't buy it. 806 00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 6: I think that anybody that does is being manipulated by 807 00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:56,159 two guys that shotgun murdered their parents death for money. Yeah, 808 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,880 zero sympathy and gen Z love you Wake up the 809 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:01,159 TV isn't always real. 810 00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: As a former prosecutor, now, though, does it cause you 811 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:15,079 concern that a Netflix production all these years later could 812 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:19,119 help turn around public sympathy and have people talking about 813 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,960 the Menandez brothers were railroaded? Does that? 814 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 5: Yeah? No, of course it absolutely does. 815 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,519 Speaker 6: It does in the sense that what gives me real 816 00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:33,039 concern is how gullible people are, and also It's almost 817 00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,360 like true crime tourism in a way. It's like they 818 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,880 know nothing about that case, but they watch, Oh I 819 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,599 watched the Netflix thinging, Oh those poor guys, and sexual 820 00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,320 assault is bad, and they say they were sexually assaulted, 821 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,840 so we've got to let them go. It's if that 822 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,760 is the future of American jurisprudence, where there's no critical 823 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,480 thought put behind it, we are in huge trouble as 824 00:39:52,519 --> 00:39:56,000 an issue. Kim Kardashian, who's only famous because her father 825 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,519 attempted to free another famous murderer. Sorry, but that's the 826 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,880 that's how they became famous. Like she has an opinion 827 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,280 on this and the great legal scholar. We've got to 828 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,280 follow her and I've got nothing against her. Stay in 829 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:08,239 your lane, Kim, like. 830 00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 5: Stick with beauty products, like literally. 831 00:40:11,639 --> 00:40:15,119 Speaker 6: Nothing about that case and also nothing about sexual assault. 832 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 5: And all these people coming in. 833 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 6: It's like, guys, I dedicated my professional career second to 834 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,440 the victims of sexual abuse. 835 00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 5: And I do pro bono work. 836 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,079 Speaker 6: Now, the idea that those two guys are tapping into 837 00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:29,480 public sympathy for very real sexual assault victims that are 838 00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:32,039 ubiquitous in our society, that really do have it hard, 839 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,519 that really do survive horrific experiences at home. That's not 840 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,639 what Lyle and Eric went through. And even if so, 841 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,880 you don't get to murder your parents for money and 842 00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,280 throw your mom under the bus saying it's like the 843 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,599 only thing worse than shotgun murdering your mother is then 844 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,280 shotgun murdering her and then blaming her saying that she 845 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,519 sexually abused you when there's literally no evidence to support 846 00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:57,079 that other than what you claim. 847 00:40:57,679 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 5: No, it's deeply concerning. 848 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,679 Speaker 6: I'll tell you another thing it's deeply concerning is I 849 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:04,760 don't trust our current DA, George Gascon in LA. 850 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 5: Not to screw that up. 851 00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 6: That's where you get paid the big bucks, and you 852 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,519 need to step up and say, hey, we're looking at 853 00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:13,320 this with a critical eye and sorry, we don't base 854 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,760 our decisions on what the Kardashians think we should do. 855 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:18,119 And I don't trust him for a variety of reasons. 856 00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:19,599 I don't trust him, but I don't trust him to 857 00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:22,079 do the right thing on that. And public safety in 858 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:24,400 my hometown of Los Angeles. 859 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 5: Has suffered greatly because that. 860 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,039 Speaker 6: Guy has been our DA, and I don't I definitely 861 00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:32,480 worry about that. The only good news is that they 862 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,519 spent thirty two years richly deserved in custody, and if 863 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,559 everything goes wrong from here on out, at least that family, 864 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,159 the ones that think right got it, you know, got. 865 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 5: Some justice out of it. 866 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,679 Speaker 6: But I mean, you know, I will debate anybody anytime, 867 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,559 anywhere about the Menendez case, and anybody who thinks they 868 00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:54,480 should be released needs to friggin think real hard before 869 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,840 they publicly advocate for that, because that is a very 870 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:57,880 slippery slope. 871 00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:59,199 Speaker 5: You know. 872 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,079 Speaker 4: I really like this concept that you just brought up, Matt, 873 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:04,840 and I think it actually helps me define something that 874 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,199 I can sometimes see, like in my own students who 875 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,239 are reading true crime are just people who are taking 876 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,760 a momentary interest in a case. This true crime tourism. 877 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:16,000 I love that expression. I feel like that is definitely 878 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,920 one of the downsides of this seemingly insatiable appetite that 879 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,639 the public has for true crime content. Suddenly everybody becomes 880 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:28,559 an expert just on the virtue of I watch the 881 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:33,400 Netflix series. Can you think of any other downsides of 882 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,039 this appetite that everybody constantly has for crime? 883 00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:40,639 Speaker 6: Okay, so one thing, I think that the vast majority 884 00:42:40,639 --> 00:42:44,119 of people that are into it, it's their motives are pure, 885 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,239 and I think that the true crimes phenomenon, if we 886 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,280 can call it that or interest right now, is genuinely 887 00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:53,960 very good because by watching the shows, people educate themselves 888 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,159 about it, and if they're interested in DNA, they learn 889 00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:59,119 about how it actually works and that stuff. Educating the 890 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:02,880 public is hugely important, especially when you're talking about forensic science, 891 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,599 because the more people understand DNA, the better we all are. 892 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,119 And understanding the forensic application of it. I put a 893 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:12,280 whole section in my Ale College chapter on how it works, 894 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,440 and it's so I think generally it's very good. There's 895 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,559 another thing that is disturbing to me, like in this 896 00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,920 coburger case, that case out of Idaho, I personally, again 897 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:20,519 not my case. 898 00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 5: He's presumed innocent. 899 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 6: I have to say that as an attorney, but I 900 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,119 believe the evidence against the defendant in that case is overwhelming. 901 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,079 Between the self on tower pays, the video of his car, 902 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:32,800 and that DNA on the sheath for the k bar knife, 903 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,679 it is very clear in my mind what happened there. 904 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,639 Speaker 5: But the online. 905 00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:40,760 Speaker 6: Saluths decided, a group of them decided that a professor 906 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,480 at that school was one that actually did it. Before 907 00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:46,800 they got Coburger's DNA. And I feel terrible for that 908 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,119 innocent teacher at that school because if you google his name, 909 00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:53,559 which I won't even use, it pops up. So you 910 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:58,679 can destroy somebody's reputation very easily by weighing in and going, hey, 911 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,119 I bet it was this guy because of whatever reasons. 912 00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:03,440 And it's almost like the in a way, it's almost 913 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,559 like a shooting. The conspiracy theorists like you you can 914 00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:09,800 get there's a lot of people that there's that old 915 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,000 adage we've all heard of if you were really crazy, 916 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,639 how would you know? I think it's even more applicable 917 00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:17,960 if you were stupid, how would you know? And they 918 00:44:18,199 --> 00:44:20,599 loved they want to be the smartest ones. And that's 919 00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:23,119 one of the things about mendous stuff. I watched the 920 00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:26,920 Netflix series, so everybody else was an idiot. The jury 921 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,320 were idiots, the judge was an idiot. The prosecutors were like. 922 00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:32,760 I knew David Kohane. I had a case with him. 923 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,760 He was the leda that successfully prosecuted them in the 924 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,639 second trial. That guy was one of the smartest lawyers 925 00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:41,559 I've ever met, and a dedicated professional. There's no big 926 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,599 or motivation for a prosecutor to ever convict an innocent person, 927 00:44:46,039 --> 00:44:49,239 and it's like that, just that sort of that armchair quarterback. Oh, 928 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,519 I watched this for fifteen minutes on a YouTube channel, 929 00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:53,719 so I know everything, but really happened. 930 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,679 Speaker 5: And look, we saw that with OJ and a lot of. 931 00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 6: People bought into that, Oh it must have been these 932 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,360 guys or this person. We heard all all of those 933 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,639 conspiracy theories, and then a rational jury got ahold of 934 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,199 the case, the civil jury, and found that he was 935 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:06,880 civily liable. 936 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 5: They basically found that he did do it. 937 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,039 Speaker 6: So I don't know, there's definite busses and minuses to 938 00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,559 the true crime stuff, but the vast majority of people 939 00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:16,639 that I've encountered in the true crime world want to 940 00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:18,840 do right. They're interested in it for the right reasons. 941 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,320 They have a tremendous amount of sympathy for the victims, 942 00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:23,960 They want to learn more, and look, nobody hates a 943 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,320 bad cop more than a good cop, and they're open 944 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,039 minded to the case has gone wrong too. 945 00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 5: And I look, I sit on a board for the 946 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,840 Purdue University that. 947 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,559 Speaker 6: It's what we do is we help people that were 948 00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:39,039 wrongfully convicted in the state of Indiana readjust to civilian 949 00:45:39,079 --> 00:45:42,199 life after being released from prison, sometimes after decades in prison, 950 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,480 and the good detectives, good judges, good jurors. Nobody wants 951 00:45:46,519 --> 00:45:49,440 to convict somebody who's innocent, and so this thing like, oh, 952 00:45:49,559 --> 00:45:52,440 they were sexually abused, so everybody's an idiot. It drives 953 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,440 me crazy. And having been the guy in that meeting 954 00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:57,920 on so many of those cases and knowing what really 955 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,199 goes on with the friends and profess essonals and the 956 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,320 detectives and the good prosecutors and the good juris and 957 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,559 the good judges, it's Yeah, so some Netflix producer figures 958 00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:10,079 that are going to get more clicks by buying into 959 00:46:10,119 --> 00:46:13,079 the Menendez defense, and now everybody wants to let them go. 960 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,119 Speaker 5: Is it's scary to me. 961 00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 2: We both obviously so enjoyed the book of murder. You 962 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,239 referenced perhaps writing a second book tell us a little 963 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,960 bit about what you're thinking about in terms of what's 964 00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:28,360 next for Matt Murphy. 965 00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:30,679 Speaker 5: Thank you for that question. So, yeah, we got a 966 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:31,960 proposal that we're about to do. 967 00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:35,199 Speaker 6: There's a I want to focus it more on serial killers. 968 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,840 I prosecuted thirteen that satisfy the FBI definition, But I 969 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,239 really I think there's a lot of meat left on 970 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,159 the bone there. I go into it a little bit 971 00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:46,079 of my book, but it's just such an interesting area 972 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,280 of criminal law, and I think that they deserve additional 973 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,400 conversations and study, and there's a ton of myths out 974 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:54,079 there about them. 975 00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:56,199 Speaker 5: So the working title and this is cool. 976 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 6: I just did a book signing for the book Murder 977 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,679 in Utah and there was a man who attended my 978 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,480 presentation who came in and he said, Hey, I got 979 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,719 to I have the title for your next book because 980 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,800 it's a line from the Book of Murder where you 981 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:09,880 say your best. 982 00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 5: Witness is always dead. 983 00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:13,119 Speaker 6: And I thought as a working title, so your best 984 00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:15,800 witness is always dead, and it'll be about serial killers 985 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,440 or what doctor von kraft Ebbing that I talked about 986 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,320 in the book, who's a contemporary of Sigmund Freud back 987 00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:24,840 in Germany. He called them sadistic lust murders, which I 988 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,599 think is far closer to the mark than what we 989 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:28,960 call them as serial killers. 990 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 5: There's a lot of things that. 991 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,159 Speaker 6: Don't that technically meet the FBI definition of quote unquote 992 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,400 serial killer that have nothing to do with the guy 993 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,199 we're talking about. It's like it's defined as two or 994 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,519 more murders committed by the same perpetrator at different times 995 00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:44,519 and events. Right, that's every gangster that can shoot straight 996 00:47:44,599 --> 00:47:45,840 eventually they can. 997 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,679 Speaker 5: Shoot two people if they're active enough. 998 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,039 Speaker 6: Or medical personnel that are doing mercy killings for terminally 999 00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:54,119 ill people in states that don't allow assists in suicide. Like, 1000 00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:57,360 there's so many different There's armed robbers that you will 1001 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,800 kill people if they're three long enough, you know what 1002 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,199 I mean. I mean the real true Blue, the Ted Bundy's, 1003 00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:09,000 the Rodney Alcolas, the BTK killers, Jack the Ripper, those guys. 1004 00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:10,559 Speaker 5: There's the sexual component to that. 1005 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,280 Speaker 6: And so I really I want to get I want 1006 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,320 to do a much deeper dive into that. I want 1007 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,559 to do a chapter on Rex Huerman, the Gilgo peach. 1008 00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:22,320 Again presumed innocent, but he's absolutely fascinating to me because 1009 00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,920 he may represent the next wave or the next realm 1010 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,159 of serial killers, the guys that are doing it with 1011 00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:32,599 a mind to defeating the forensic science. And because they 1012 00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:36,079 think he killed nineteen and they got him with MITO DNA. 1013 00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:38,400 They just found a couple of hairs from his arm. 1014 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,360 They think, so he's he figured out a way to 1015 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,800 defeat fingerprints and nuclear DNA, and I think we're going 1016 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,199 to learn a ton in that case. So I wanted 1017 00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:47,519 to get into all that in the next book, and 1018 00:48:47,679 --> 00:48:49,840 I think it'd be an interesting read. And thank you 1019 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,760 so much for the nice things that you said about 1020 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,639 my book. I've never written one before and I didn't 1021 00:48:54,679 --> 00:48:56,679 know what I was doing. The fact that anybody liked 1022 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,880 it is always harwarming for me. 1023 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,880 Speaker 4: His style is wonderful, and Bill will tell you I 1024 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,760 read a ton of this stuff, but I really enjoyed 1025 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,400 Book of Murder in a way that I haven't enjoyed 1026 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,719 a book in quite a while. You've just got a 1027 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:16,679 very approachable, easy, occasionally funny, but always very heartwarming and 1028 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:17,400 touching the style. 1029 00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:18,800 Speaker 5: Hats off to you, Matt. 1030 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:19,599 Speaker 4: It's terrific. 1031 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 5: Thank you so much. 1032 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,519 Speaker 6: The Audible for some reason, this is a mystery to 1033 00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:26,559 me because I can't stand the sound of my own voice. 1034 00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:29,119 But the Audible is also doing really well, so for 1035 00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:32,000 any of your listeners that want to listen on their 1036 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,559 commut or whatever it's available on Audible. I narrated it 1037 00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:37,360 myself and it seems to be gaining popularity. 1038 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 5: So thank you so much for the kind. 1039 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 4: Words, absolutely, And will we be seeing you at Crime 1040 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,639 Con in Denver. You've been a crime con fixed here 1041 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,599 the last couple of years. We love seeing you there. 1042 00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:49,800 Speaker 5: Yep. I will be there with the book. I will 1043 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,760 be there to sign copies for anybody who wants to 1044 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:52,280 sign copying. 1045 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,760 Speaker 6: And I'm actually Kelly mcclear, who's basically Kelly and Kevin 1046 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,800 run Crime Con. I've surrendered to the idea that I 1047 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,559 just need to do at Kelly tells me to do 1048 00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:03,440 at all times. Since they've also got me going on 1049 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,400 a cruise, the Crime Cruise we go in November. I'm 1050 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,360 going to be on that and it is going to Haiti, 1051 00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:12,039 no joke. We're going to Haiti on the Crime Cruise. 1052 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,320 I'm getting on the boat. I think that'll be a 1053 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,280 lot of fun. Maybe not the Haiti part, being on 1054 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:18,639 the boat, everybody will be fun. 1055 00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:20,760 Speaker 5: Matt, thank you so much for joining us. 1056 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 4: The book is The Book of Murder, A Prosecutor's Journey 1057 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,280 through Love and Death by Matt Murphy. Matt, thank you. 1058 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,159 You've been a splendid guest with us today. 1059 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,199 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. 1060 00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:33,159 Speaker 4: And that's going to do it for this episode of 1061 00:50:33,159 --> 00:50:36,320 Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 1062 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,079 see you next time. 1063 00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:50,199 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 1064 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,719 Another Dog Productions. 1065 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,599 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 1066 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 1067 00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:01,079 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 1068 00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:05,519 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 1069 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,639 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 1070 00:51:09,679 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 1071 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,079 Murders on Facebook. 1072 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,880 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 1073 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,599 Bill Thomas five six. 1074 00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:22,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.